Haterade - 4 Color (GBwr) Midrange Agro with maindeck hate package

[Strassbaw]

First, I would like to direct readers to this link http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11822&iddeck=86552 where my list can be seen placing at a Local game store of mine in attempts to build a minor amount of credibility when it comes to competitive play with running a deck like this. I have done well (2 other top 8's at LGS while running a similar list) at other tournaments with this deck; However, this is the first time I have won at a store that posts winning deck lists.

Next I like to direct readers to this link http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25707-Primer-Deck-Zoo&p=751486&viewfull=1#post751486

This is the start of me running this 4 color deck with the main deck 4 Wasteland, 4 Thoughtseize, and 3 Thalia main deck. I started posted in the Zoo Threads because the Zoo deck was the initial starting place for me to begin when wanting to play a non-tribe, non-blue aggro deck in a Legacy.The Jund archetype has had some success recently, and I feel like Deathrite Shaman has helped enable 4 color decks to have some success in Legacy (as a consequence giving cards like Bloodmoon a lot of power in this format) and I feel like the Dark Confidant + Sylvan Library + Deathrite Shaman engine is very effective in creating card advantage which is important when playing against the plethora of "fair decks" in the format.

Thalia is a card that I think may be the best at hating out the most popular combo decks in the format currently, and with Leyline of sanctity being a common sideboard card, I do not like relying on just discard alone for me to stall the combo decks. This is why my disruption package is 4 Wasteland, 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Thalia main deck.

The mana base is very greedy, however, Deathrite, (all dual lands and/or fetchlands besides the 4 wastelands) and card advantage can fix many of these problems, and running 22 mana helps me from losing to wasteland, stifle, or being forced to keep an unfavorable hand. 22 mana feels about right, and the 4 color Dark Zoo lists I used as a starting point ran 4 waste land 18 other lands. No card main deck cost more than 2 mana, and this also keeps me from having really bad mana issues. You MUST mulligan to have 2 lands in opening hand game 1 (assume you don't know your opponents list) and in most cases a Fetch + wasteland is a good keep if on the play. I probably would keep the right 4 mana hand, but not a 5 mana hand without multiple Wastelands or specific hate cards to beat certain decks.

Grim Lavamancer and lightning bolt are so good that I forced them to be in the deck. I considered punishing fire package, but running thalia, 4 colors, and wasteland seems like a way to lose a lot of games. Grim Lavamancer is great against deathrite shaman, Stoneforge mystic, Tribe decks, Jund, and many other decks in the format; but the "flip side of the coin" for Grim Lavamancer is that he is really bad against combo decks and he is usually the first card I sideboard out against decks that win turn 2-4. Grim is only mediocre against most tempo decks unfortunately, as delver is the only target Grim Lavamancer can kill without assistance. Lightning Bolt is one of the best removal cards in the format. I don't think I need to make much of a case for Lightning Bolt, but it can kill Planeswalkers that Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay cannot, and it can kill players.

Tarmagoyf is the best in the business, and Scavanging Ooze can be very effective as well. There is a counter synergy with Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, Tarmagoyf, and Scavenging Ooze, however, this has rarely been a problem. If the reason there are no cards in my Graveyard is because Grim Lavamancer ate them all, then I'm probably winning the game. 4 Thought seize, 10 fetch, 4 Wasteland and 8 removal spells that do not remove Creature from game usually provide enough fuel for all of these cards to exist in 1 deck. Deathrite and scavenging Ooze provide plenty of graveyard hate maindeck which can be very important in this format that has many graveyard base decks.

The name Haterade came to me when drinking a Gatorade at my local game store. This deck has a lot of main deck hate and it aids in the hating process. I like playing a non-blue deck that can duke it out game 1 with the combo decks, but I feel like I have hurt some of my odds of beating a "fair deck" game 1 by playing cards like Thoughtseize main deck and having a very easy to disrupt mana base.

So far my worst match-ups are UWr Miracles, then Shardless Bug. The Shardless BUG match-up is hard because it is hard for me to end the game early enough before they out card advantage me. Even with cards like Choke, I have only gone 0-1-1 against the deck as of my most recent changes (I used to run wild nacatl, and other faster cards to lock the game out faster). I have been Side boarding out 4 Thoughtseize and adding Life from the Loam, Grim Lavamancer and 2 Choke plus keeping Thalia in games 2, and 3 against Shardless BUG. Now I think I'm going to try Quasali Pridemage or my new Side Board card (see Below) to aid against Shardless BUG. Pridemage has exalted which may help win the tarmagoyf war, and he can also kill Baleful Strix, or Shardless agent which may come in handy over thalia. Oblivian ring is my other option, but I would rather not use this card.

The UWr Miracles deck is a super bad match-up. Bloodmoon is an auto win, and 11-15 cards main deck are pretty bad against UWr Miracles (Grim, STP,L-bolt, and Tarmagoyf). Deathrite Shaman is slightly better than the other cards I named in this match up, but not by much. Main deck Rest in Peace and 3-4 Terminus main deck is especially hard to beat, and no 1 card shuts this entire deck out like Oblivion ring, Ethersworn Canonist, or Thalia do to Show and Tell or Storm decks. Choke is as close as I get, and Miracles runs a lot of Basic lands, so it is far from over when I land Choke. Gaddock Teeg was okay, but Swords to Plowshares and Karakas make this card nearly void in this match up, so now I am going to try a new and more simple solution in my side board to combat my 2 most feared decks in the format.


I'll post more in this thread and update my most recent matches. I went 3-1-1 at the GPT in the 5 round swiss and the week before I went 3-1 in swiss rounds and lost in top 8 at a casual tournament at a LGS. Stay creative people. I have had a lot of fun brewing this deck, and playing with new cards and tinkering. This has allowed me to learn why these cards are good. Gaddock Teeg is a classic example of card that looks good on paper, but in this deck without Green Sun Zenith, this card is not very effective and can be replaced with something better. Most of my losses I can chalk up to miss plays, but the list is far from perfect. Ill post more as I play more and find more time. As of now, this is what I am likely to run at my next Legacy event:

deathrite shaman 4
dark confidant 4
grim lavamancer 3
thalia, guardian of thrabein 3
tarmagoyf 4
scavenging ooze 2

thought seize 4
swords to plowshares 4
lightning bolt 4
abrupt decay 4
sylvan library 2

22 lands:
Badlands 2
savanna 2
scrubland 1
taiga 1
bayou 1
plateau 1
wooded foothills 2
marsh flats 2
verdant catacombs 2
wind swept heath 2
blood stained mire 2
Wasteland 4

sideboard

Duress 3
choke 2
oblivion ring 2
quasali pridemage 3
Grim Lavamancer 1
ethersworn canoeist 2
Loxodon Smiter 2


Thanks for reading! Let me know what you think. Feedback is appreciated.

Sincerely
M.S.

[KazinMtg]

Why not Knight of the Reliquary instead of goyf? Seems like a pretty solid card with the 4 wasteland, and 2 sylvan library

[Anfylion]

Really like the deck!! :smile:

with that solid removal package, i'm gonna test -1 tarmogoyf (or ooze), -1 lavamancer, +2 gaddock teeg, for more MD hatebears

[Bed Decks Palyer]

KotR costs one mana more and is shrinked by DRS and Lavamancer.

[cadaver]

KotR costs one mana more and is shrinked by DRS and Lavamancer.

You do realize that the same applies to goyf correct? Knight shrinks only when lands go away goyf shrinks when anythng goes away.

[ironclad8690]

This deck looks pretty sweet. With the recent shifts in the meta I think it could take many forms too. I was looking at a netdeck a little while ago that was a 4 color goodstuff with bloodbraid and lingering souls too.

[HammafistRoob]

I feel like you should really be running Stoneforge Mystic. It gains you back all the life you lose to Bob, Library, and Seize. My initial thought is something like -2 Scooze, -1 Goyf, -1 Decay, -1 Lavamancer, +3 Stoned Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Jitte.

I'm not sure about your combo matchup even with the Thalias. You only have 7 forms of disruption compared to lots of dead cards against them. Maybe move the Lavamancers to the board in favor of the Duress? It seems like you should already be pretty strong against non-tempo fair decks without Lavamen. Overall the deck looks pretty solid.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You do realize that the same applies to goyf correct? Knight shrinks only when lands go away goyf shrinks when anything goes away.

Yep, but the DRS/Grim can't affect their cmc. Also DRS is pretty bad at eating anything.

[Asthereal]

Nice idea! Some remarks:

1. I feel Wasteland is out of place here. A four colour manabase doesn't really like them.
Take those out and perhaps you have space for Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows.

2. Second the Stoneforge Mystic idea. They seem to fit in really well.

3. I feel the sideboard need some work still. I think some Red Elemental Blasts would be very nice to have, f.i.

[Strassbaw]

I'd like to thank the people who have responded to my thread. It has provided me with a lot of incite and ideas to consider in my future deck building ideas.

@ Asthereal: Your first point about the Wastelands in the deck does hold some merit. The Wastelands in some sense are "out of place" but they became very necessary for me to be competitive in the current meta. Before I added wasteland, I played 20 lands total and ran the deck more like Zoo (Wild Nacatl, and other 1 mana dorks). I had many of losses to single land cards like Math of Ith, Tabernacle of Pendants Vale, Academy ruins (late game esperblade), and even Glacial Chasm in some stupid decks. To remove Wasteland completely seems more risky than keeping it in. Maybe lowing the Wasteland count to 2, and adding Knight of the Reliquary could be a cool tech. I might have to buy a Karakas and Punishing fire tech while I'm at it, unfortunately.

The Punishing fire tech would be great if I added knight, However, I would probably have to lose all the Grim Lavamancers and adjust my removal spell count to make it work. I'm kind of concerned about running thalia with the punishing fire tech main deck, but if I can run 4 Abrupt Decay and 2 Sylvan with thalia, maybe a few more non-creature 2-drops wont hurt. To test things unfortunately I will have to dish out the money for the Punishing Fire cards as I do not own them.

The second point you made about Stoneforge Mystic is a strong point as well. I mostly do not run this card out of spite. I hate that card! I mostly play decks that loss instantly to Batterskull or Jitte post-counters. On a more practical note regarding Stoneforge Mystic, running Thalia main deck may hurt my potential to casting an equipment "fetched" by Stoneforge Mystic. In addition, equipment's besides batterskull do nothing without creatures to equip, so I may have to up my creature count or play cards like Planeswalkers that produce tokens and/or Lingering Souls to support Stoneforge if I go that route.


The third point you made about the sideboard is one that I agree with. The board still needs some work, but I think I like a lot of it the way it is. Red Elemental Blast is a great card, but as of the way the deck is most recently structured, keeping 1 red mana open to stop the opponent from casting a blue spell that turn had greatly slowed my deck down. In most cases when I had a REB in hand, I would have been more happy with Duress (besides killing things like jace or like Merfolks). I have chosen to use mainly proactive cards (Duress, Choke, Quasali Pridemage, Etherswon Canoniest etc.) so I can tap out on my turn and spend my mana, as oppose to awaiting and predicting my opponents move.

@ HammafistRoob: So far I have a very good record against combo. Yesterday at another event I won 2-0 against TES twice! Winning game 1 with Thalia, Thoughtseize and maybe mistakes made by people. Watseland helps in this match if you can stall long enough with discard too. I Like the thoughts you had about which cards to take out for the Stoneforge tech, and when I get some time, I'll consider testing it out. I'm afraid of Batterskull being 6 mana with Thalia out, and even 5 mana can be hard to cast, but its worth a shot. Stoneforge can provide free wins, so it may be a risk worth taking for play testing.

@AMAnfylion: I'm glad you have taken interest in the deck! Be very careful when using your fetchlands. In a 4 color deck, it is very easy to get the inappropriate dual land with a fetchland, and it can be the cause of an entire game loss. I almost always keep opposing lands on the board (By opposing I mean the combinations of Savannah and Badland, or Taiga and Scrubland, or Bayou and Plateau.) this way I can produce any color combination. With 4 Abrupt Decay main deck, Getting Bayou and Plateau is usually not smart because you cannot cast Abrupt decay with that combination of lands. Please, let me know how your testing goes.

@ KazinMtg: Knight is something I am considering, but I probably will keep some number of Tarmagoyf in the deck even if I run knight. Tarmagoyf is very effective at what it does, and in addition, it is a temporary answer to an opponents tarmagoyf. Knight is worth a shot if I adjust the mana base and add in cool cards like Punishing fire tech or Karakas.

@ Bed decks Player: In most cases I have not been able to have Deathrite Shaman "eat" card types for life point altering effects. In most games if Deathrite sits on the board for a long enough time to "eat" an entire graveyards worth of cards by the end of he game, you have probably won. There has certainly been games where I ran out of Graveyard targets with Grim, and/or Deathrite but often there has been enough room for DRS, Grim, Goyf, and even Scavaning Ooze, but I think Ooze is sitting in my binder for my next attempting at tweaking this deck.

@PMironclad8690: This deck is a lot of fun, but I had to lose a lot of matches to learn how to pilot this deck well. I think I have some good things going for me in this list, but ultimately, I think a not-blue 4 color deck will surface and be played. The cards are there, its just about finding the correct combination for the given meta, and being piloted by a good player.

@AMcadaver: Maybe Knight could give fuel to lavamancer if I play lavamancer after my next edit. When I played the burn deck, Fireblast with Lavamancer was good synergy, maybe something like that could emerge from the combination of those cards. More likely I think grim would shrink Knight of the Reliquary, but maybe if Grim is activated during the opponents turn, the graveyards loss of lands may be negligible. Maybe Bloodbraid elf into Knight in a Punishing Fire build could be a step in the right direction.

I am going to Post my old match results with update match results all running a similar list. The data I am using comes from the date I added the Hate-package of 4 thoughtseize, 3 Thalia, 4 Wasteland maindeck. The 75 cards in the deck have mostly been the same sense, so I do not think the results will be very skewed week to week. Some of these results can be seen in my Zoo thread posts, but I have added the most recent 2 weeks of tournament play in this post.


SCG Philladelphia
Round 1: Patriot 2-0
Round 2: Tes 2-0
Round 3: 4 color loam with Knights of the reliquary and Dark Depths/thespian stage combo 1-2
Round 4: Omnitell Ants finish 2-1
Round 5: Young Pyromancer grixis 1-2
Round 6: Reanimator 2-1
Round 7: Elves 1-2 (I forfeit the match when I found his Misty Rain forest on the ground. He was very likely to win the match when I quit cause the judge was on the way over)
Drop =(

LGS in Philly week before SCG philly: 2-2

Omnitell: 2-1
Dredge 1-2
Young Pyromancer U/R 2-1
Reanimator 1-2

Lgs in Philly week after Scg philly 2-2

Jund 2-1
Omnitell 2-1
Land Still 1-2
RIP UWR Miracles 0-2


Top Deck Games Haddon NJ

Round 1: Affinity 2-0
Round 2: Esperblade 2-1
Round 3: Rug Delver 1-2 (Nimble Mongoose is a PROBLEM! I lost this match cause I didn't cast scavenging ooze to gain life when I had the chance)
Round 4: Reanimator 1-2 (I should have won. My cell phone kept ringing during my match. I got distracted and tapped the wrong mana to cast a Bob. I had an active Deathrite shaman and I unnecessarily tapped a green mana producer and was unable to remove the creature that was going to be put in his graveyard. I had casted Thoughtsieze and knew this was coming, I just was too embarrassed about my phone and I blew the match.)

I left after I blew the match

Stomping grounds Hatboro Pa (Where my deck list was posted)

Round 1: Shardless Bug 1-1 Tie (I Choke was not enough. Wipflare is a crazy good sideboard card. I'm hoping Loxodon Smiter in sideboard will help me win this match-up)

Round 2: Sneak and Show 0-2 (Sneak attack game 1. I kept a hand full of removal and lavamancers which did nothing. Game 2 he had double bloodmoon in opening hand. I duress one away. He turn 1 playes the other bloodmoon. Good game.)

Round 3: Boros 2-0

Round 4: U/r Delver 2-1 (Wastelanding myself!)

Round 5: 4 color delver 2-1 ( Close game but Choke + Abrupt Decay made it hard for him to win)

Top 8 Shardless Bug 1-2 (This has been one of my more feared decks. They have more card advantage than I do and usually win in the longer games.)

Bluebell PA Alternate Universe 10-5-2013

Round 1 Elves 1-2 (close games. he ran 2 Dryad Arbors and When I foolishly attacked with a Grim game 1, he fecthed both Dryad Arbors and doubled blocked grim. I had a bolt in hand, but not enough to save Grim. Game 3 I made a BIG mistake. I had thoughtseize and Grim in my opening hand. I was on the draw this game. I Opened with grim and not Thoughtseize and I lost next turn to a turn 2 Natural Order into Progenitus. Always thoughtseize first in this match if you are on the draw. I didn't know it at the time, but they can theoretically have 4 mana on turn 2. Who knew.)

Round 2 TES: 2-0 (Not much to say. Kept a hand with thalia, Won the dice roll. Boarded in like 10 cards, and Kept a 7 card hand with lots of sideboard hate cards.)

Round 3 TES again 2-0. (Game 1, won dice roll and I get Thalia again and win. Game 2 my opponent makes a sideboard mistake and it causes him to misplay badly. I don't play Tes, but I think he didn't leave a card in the sideboard that he needed to get with Burning wish. I play ethersworn Canonist and won shortly after that.)

Round 4: Goblins 2-1 (I play this deck, so i know it inside and out. The game he won, he had 3 Aethervials out. Aethervial is a card to kill on site most times, as goblin cards do nothing when they are in your hand! Game 3 was close, and a misplay he made may have lost my opponent the game. Grim Lavamancer is probably my best card in this match up, and pridemage is very useful to.

Round5: UWr Micales 0-2 against a guy who was undefeated and knows my list (bloodmoon hits board and I probably lose). He chooses not to draw the match into top 8 cause he was going to make top 8 anyway, and the top seed chooses play or draw rule was in effect for this tournament. (Game 1 I lose but I expected to. Game 2 I make a HUGE mistake. I turn 1 thoughtseize and do not take Bloodmoon. Instead I take Rest in Peace because I had more hand disruption in my hand. Turn 2 I try to thoughtseize again and he casts Brainstorm and hides Bloodmoon in his deck. This was my fault 100% cause I seen the Brainstorm in his hand turn 1 and made a poor choice as of what to take. I do not often play with blue decks so I didn't think about this when I took RIP. Live and learn!)

3-2 did not get me in op 8. I was 9th place and I went home disappointed in myself.


Had I have played better I may have made top 8 and done well. I blame myself for the losses. The deck could be better, but how a person runs a deck can be more important than the deck itself. I will continue to post my matches, ideas, and comments about this deck here. If anyone wants more detailed coverage of the matches I can make time to explain sideboard choices and side out choices and also strategy.Until I do some trading or purchasing, this is the list I am going to try next time:

deathrite shaman 4
dark confidant 4
grim lavamancer 3
thalia, guardian of thrabein 3
tarmagoyf 4
Quasali Pridemage 3

thought seize 4
swords to plowshares 4
lightning bolt 4
abrupt decay 3
sylvan library 2

22 lands:
Badlands 2
savanna 2
scrubland 1
taiga 1
bayou 1
plateau 1
wooded foothills 2
marsh flats 2
verdant catacombs 2
wind swept heath 2
blood stained mire 1
Arid Mesa 1
Wasteland 4

sideboard

Abrupt Decay 1
Duress 2
choke 2
oblivion ring 2
quasali pridemage1
Grim Lavamancer 1
ethersworn canoeist 2
Loxodon Smiter 2
Gaddock Teeg 2 (Gotta find something better!)

Thanks for reading and thanks for the feedback! Hopefully I can test new ideas soon.

[DragoFireheart]

There is a counter synergy with Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, Tarmagoyf, and Scavenging Ooze, however, this has rarely been a problem.

Sorry, but I'm having a hard time beveling this. One of those cards is going to give at some point, be a small Goyf or a Ooze/DRS/Grim with no food. Assuming you're winning when the graveyard is empty is also a fallacy because...



So far my worst match-ups are UWr Miracles,


This deck neuters 16 of your cards with just one, Rest in Peace (also, Blood Moon as you said). Going Four colors does not seem worth it considering the cards you have.


Also...




then Shardless Bug. The Shardless BUG match-up is hard because it is hard for me to end the game early enough before they out card advantage me.

Being soft to the 2nd/3rd most popular deck does not seem like a winning plan. Being a (no offense) bad version of Jund with a weaker mana base that still loses to combo, Miracles, and Shardless BUG is not something that is going to Top 8 without a uphill struggle.

I feel as though having 4 colors is too much. You should give up a color and continue your focus on being a hate deck. Try to improve the deck to either have a better Miracles, combo, or Shardless Bug matchup. Since you are already running discard and Thaila, try to make combo a better matchup as a suggestion.

[troopatroop]

Where is Wild Nacatl? Is that thing still legal in Legacy?