[Podcast] Everyday Eternal: Midrange Mania

[thecrav]

In episode ten of eEverydayEternal, Matt Pavlic (sdematt) and Sam Craven (das me!) discuss the recent surge in popularity of midrange decks. The cast starts with a quick run down of some recent tournament results as well as brief analysis of our favorite cards out of Theros. Matt and Sam then focus on Shardless BUG, Jund, and Junk; how they work and what you can do against them. The cast starts with a quick run down of some recent tournament results as well as brief analysis of our favorite cards out of Theros.


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[warfordium]

I'm sad you didn't talk about Quest for Bacon and how it gives MUC access to a sweeper in combination with Hibernation. #COMEON

[thecrav]

I'm sad you didn't talk about Quest for Bacon and how it gives MUC access to a sweeper in combination with Hibernation. #COMEON

I think if you're going to use the baconator as a sweeper, Echoing Truth is probably better than hibernation.

Also, if you're playing baconator as a sweeper, you're probably not playing legacy :P

[nedleeds]

Protogenesis and elves riding craterhoof laugh at echoing poop ...

[thecrav]

Protogenesis and elves riding craterhoof laugh at echoing poop ...

But you turn them to pigs first THEN you truth 'em! :P

[mini1337s]

I wish you could Misdirect a Grindstone activation, but alas, it is not meant to be.

I think Swan Song would shine in more of a classic BUG Deedstill list. Pernicious Deed, Standstill, Planeswalkers, Snapcaster Mage and unconditional countermagic.

[sdematt]

I wish you could Misdirect a Grindstone activation, but alas, it is not meant to be.

I think Swan Song would shine in more of a classic BUG Deedstill list. Pernicious Deed, Standstill, Planeswalkers, Snapcaster Mage and unconditional countermagic.

Swan Song has been very promising in BUG Deedstill because you tend to have open mana often, and you clear the board quite frequently.

-Matt

[Barook]

I wish you could Misdirect a Grindstone activation, but alas, it is not meant to be.
Well, there's Reroute - sure it isn't free, but at least it operates under Blood Moon.

[lyracian]

I enjoyed that. However telling people they can misdirect Grindstone seems bad; I expect someone will try it at an event now...

[Higgs]

I think talking about general strategies, possible decks to attack a midrange meta or some possible brews would have made more sense rather than talking about specific hoser cards against these decks. We know blood moon locks out BUG but how are blood moon decks positioned in a meta stretched between combo and midrange? How can you prey on midrange decks while having game against the other big players?

[Koby]

I think talking about general strategies, possible decks to attack a midrange meta or some possible brews would have made more sense rather than talking about specific hoser cards against these decks. We know blood moon locks out BUG but how are blood moon decks positioned in a meta stretched between combo and midrange? How can you prey on midrange decks while having game against the other big players?

Mid range is historically soft to Combo decks (Thalia notwithstanding). We see this with Elves and S&T combos being able to earn a lot of easy wins when DRS decks start to skimp on meaningful interaction. I've always been a big fan of Elves due to its speed; it's also really well positioned to attack Mid range metagames. Until the interaction changes from 1:1 into Deed/EE, Elves will be in a nice spot. It still has a difficult time with faster combo decks (Belcher, Storm, sometimes Painter), but that's how it works out.

[twndomn]

Mid range is historically soft to Combo decks (Thalia notwithstanding). We see this with Elves and S&T combos being able to earn a lot of easy wins when DRS decks start to skimp on meaningful interaction. I've always been a big fan of Elves due to its speed; it's also really well positioned to attack Mid range metagames. Until the interaction changes from 1:1 into Deed/EE, Elves will be in a nice spot. It still has a difficult time with faster combo decks (Belcher, Storm, sometimes Painter), but that's how it works out.

This is why I dislike the definition of Mid-range. If you really want to look historically, let's examine the old extended. Back in the day, Goblin was still considered Aggro deck and Madness is considered mid-range, or as I like to put it, aggro-control. In those days, these "mid range" decks are doing great against combos like extended's reanimator. As matter of fact, any aggro-combo like Dredge, or just aggro with strong synergy like affinity, can defeat the so-called "mid-range" decks.

Now, people use misleading terms like mid-range and cheat by dropping couple FoW. No wonder combos, or just decks MD Blood Moon, have been doing well lately.

[Koby]

This is why I dislike the definition of Mid-range. If you really want to look historically, let's examine the old extended. Back in the day, Goblin was still considered Aggro deck and Madness is considered mid-range, or as I like to put it, aggro-control. In those days, these "mid range" decks are doing great against combos like extended's reanimator. As matter of fact, any aggro-combo like Dredge, or just aggro with strong synergy like affinity, can defeat the so-called "mid-range" decks.

Now, people use misleading terms like mid-range and cheat by dropping couple FoW. No wonder combos, or just decks MD Blood Moon, have been doing well lately.

You can call it Reuben sandwich if it makes you happy. We use commonly defined ideas to help breakdown the complexity of MTG and Legacy.

Madness (UG with Circular Logic) was never considered Mid-range; it's as you called it -- aggro control. Mid range decks are closer to classic Rock decks rather than classic Madness decks. Threshold is the evolution of the UG Madness deck with cheap green threats and blue soft counters.

[Higgs]

Mid range is historically soft to Combo decks (Thalia notwithstanding). We see this with Elves and S&T combos being able to earn a lot of easy wins when DRS decks start to skimp on meaningful interaction. I've always been a big fan of Elves due to its speed; it's also really well positioned to attack Mid range metagames. Until the interaction changes from 1:1 into Deed/EE, Elves will be in a nice spot. It still has a difficult time with faster combo decks (Belcher, Storm, sometimes Painter), but that's how it works out.

Thanks for the reply. Although my post was more of a feedback on the discussion in the podcast.

But to continue the discussion on that, I don't think S&T combos are actually that favored against midrange decks as it looks on paper. I've been playing S&T for a while and I've faced the nightmare scenarios of Thoughtseize->Hymn->Liliana or Thoughtseize->Hymn->Hymn enough times to know that the matchup is not a walk in the park. They also have a good clock so sometimes when your deck craps on you and you just can't piece together your combo, they will be landing threat after threat and beating you to a pulp. When you think of it, S&T combos aren't like Storm and they are especially weak to discard so I'm wondering if a deck like Omnitell is really the best place to be in a meta full of Hymns and Lilianas?

Aside from combo I'm looking at UWr options since those colors have RiP and Bolts to deal with their planeswalkers and graveyard and Swords to deal with Goyfs, but I haven't been able to find a configuration that's not getting outmuscled by their card advantage.

I think in the current meta you either play midrange or play a deck that beats midrange, but doing the latter leaves you vulnerable to a number of strategies depending on the niche you are playing.

[sdematt]

I think talking about general strategies, possible decks to attack a midrange meta or some possible brews would have made more sense rather than talking about specific hoser cards against these decks. We know blood moon locks out BUG but how are blood moon decks positioned in a meta stretched between combo and midrange? How can you prey on midrange decks while having game against the other big players?

Oh, we totally forgot to post brews/I was still working on brews at the time. I mean, I guess we can talk about it here, though.

The E. Tutor Miracles build is something I like to play against midrange, since searching for Moon, RIP, etc. are all fun times.

The format itself is ripe for a good fucking from Pyroclasm, so playing some sort of control deck running a Pyroclasm/Bonfire sweeper is interesting. In this case, I'm trying out RUG Counterbalance, with a list like so (this being the first time I've released it)

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Witchstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fires
3 Bonfire of the Damned/Pyroclasm
3 Spell Snare
2 Swan song
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Misdirection

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Open

--BOARD--

2 Life from the Loam
3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroclasm/Bonfire
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 Open

This is still in the "does this even work?" phase, but I think I've got a rough enough shell to talk about it.

[Koby]

Likewise, this was a deck I worked on for a couple weeks and won a fair share of prizes with. It sits in the quasi-aggro control (much closer to control) side of the spectrum. The amount of card quality in this list allows it to stay on pace with other Mid-range decks like Shardless BUG and Jund. The extra removal helps to eliminate DRS before it works over my GY.

4 SFM
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser Shaper Savant

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Izzet Charm
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 StP
3 Lightning Bolt

3 Jace TMS
1 EE
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 EE
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
1 Detention Sphere
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wear/Tear

[Kayradis]

Good Cast!
Keep up the good work!

I really liked the one with the feature guest. Maybe more of those in the future?

[Shawon]

I learn something new everyday. Until this episode, I never knew Misdirection could misdirect targets of any kind of spell, not just instants or sorceries. So, while you can't really Misdirect a Grindstone activation (you guys might want to put up an edit on the podcast link), you can Misdirect the targets of Aura enchantments, which may not come up in Legacy that often, but the interaction is still worth considering in the back of your mind.

Up until RtR printed, I used to ran Spell Pierce in Affinity (of all decks) to great effect against combo and control decks such as S&T and Miracles. Pierce was pretty clutch against Miracles, but it always fell short against S&T since they could just find a Sol Land to pay for Pierce if they didn't have a Force. With Swan Song, I can just say "No, that [combo card which kills me] does not resolve," rather than "Wait, do you have two spare mana floating? Oh, then I'm fucked." I'm still debating between the drawback of Swan Song being a big deal for an aggro deck like Affinity to be using, or whether Swan Song is a better option than the SB cards I do run against combo, but it's nice to know that I can hard counter a Solitary Confinement for :u: for a pivotal tempo swing and win the game.

Good episode. I like the random episodes when some of the cast is absent because you get to see more unique interaction with a certain subset of cast members that you wouldn't normally catch with a full set. I'd like to see a Koby & Sean episode in the future, or Matt/Sean.

So, since you guys covered Control, Combo, and Midrange, are you guys going to cover Aggro?

[Koby]

Aggro - do not attempt. Enter Sandwich bracket within 2.5 hours.

[sdematt]

Aggro - do not attempt. Enter Sandwich bracket within 2.5 hours.

We'll be doing it eventually, but itll likely focus on aggro control and why thats better than pure aggro in legacy. We will be havi g more guest casts, its just hard orgaizing time zones, especially with europe and asia.

[Shawon]

Aggro - do not attempt. Enter Sandwich bracket within 2.5 hours.

Challenge accepted... or already passed. I went undefeated for my first 5 rounds at SCG Phillly with Affinity, so I definitely lasted a while.

I'm a little disappointed that you dismiss aggro wholly as a strategy in today's Legacy, but I'm not surprised given your inclination toward combo decks and the rotating bookshelf of combo decks that surface every top 8-16. I think both Goblins and Affinity are excellent aggro decks that have a chance in today's Legacy so long as their respective SBs are adequately prepared against combo. With the decline in Miracles decks, Affinity can emphasize more focus in the SB against combo decks and it already whips on tempo decks.

[Koby]

Challenge accepted... or already passed. I went undefeated for my first 5 rounds at SCG Phillly with Affinity, so I definitely lasted a while.

I'm a little disappointed that you dismiss aggro wholly as a strategy in today's Legacy, but I'm not surprised given your inclination toward combo decks and the rotating bookshelf of combo decks that surface every top 8-16. I think both Goblins and Affinity are excellent aggro decks that have a chance in today's Legacy so long as their respective SBs are adequately prepared against combo. With the decline in Miracles decks, Affinity can emphasize more focus in the SB against combo decks and it already whips on tempo decks.

Now that's not fair. The only decks I would consider to be Aggro in the current metagame are Affinity, Zoo, and variations of Dredge. Goblins, while appearing to be aggressive, fall into the Vial categorization; lumped along with Death & Taxes, Merfolk, and variations of Maverick.

Of Zoo, Affinity, Dredge -- only Affinity is competitive at the large scale.
Zoo has fallen hard due to Miracles becoming a DtB.
Dredge has always suffered being easy to hate out and now has splash damage from DRS.
Affinity is both fast enough, and is under the radar as to maintain its cutthroat position. There is no current consensus about the optimal build, which means it can range from anything with Disciples of the Vault to Tezzeret AoB.

Ultimately, Aggro as an archetypal strategy means fast creatures with zero disruption. That's not enough to compete in the big meta. The lack of placing in T16 in large events is evidence of that.

[Barook]

Ultimately, Aggro as an archetypal strategy means fast creatures with zero disruption. That's not enough to compete in the big meta. The lack of placing in T16 in large events is evidence of that.
This

Aggro isn't fast enough to race combo and it also loses to Miracles because some idiot in R&D thought it would be a good idea to print a Super Wrath of God for the lousy cost of :w:.

What are Affinity's bad match-ups?

[Admiral_Arzar]

This

Aggro isn't fast enough to race combo and it also loses to Miracles because some idiot in R&D thought it would be a good idea to print a Super Wrath of God for the lousy cost of :w:.

What are Affinity's bad match-ups?

Miracles, fast Combo, Pernicious Deed. Note that you can still lose to removal-heavy midrange decks (i.e. Jund boarding in a bunch of Ancient Grudge) especially considering most of your deck dies to Punishing Fire.

[Megadeus]

DEED. Watching my opponents face when a judge had to confirm to him that Deed does in fact destroy his lands (affinity) as well was priceless.

[Shawon]

This

Aggro isn't fast enough to race combo and it also loses to Miracles because some idiot in R&D thought it would be a good idea to print a Super Wrath of God for the lousy cost of :w:.

What are Affinity's bad match-ups?

Miracles isn't unbeatable, but it is still hard. Play with a conservative amount of aggression. You need 4 Tezzerets post-board to beat Miracles and save them for last. Academy Ruins is pretty clutch against Miracles counters, and Spell Pierce is amazing. I've countered a Turn 2 and Turn 3 Terminus with back-to-back Pierces before.

Affinity's worst matchups are combo matchups, including MUD. But I focus all of my SB against combo decks. It's hard to make a catch-all SB even against every combo deck, but it's pretty easy to take care of your combo matchups if you focus your hate on the combo decks you know you will face.

Cloudpost is also rough if I don't have at least Tezzeret and something in the SB. However, I have access to a Moon-based build of Affinity that should theoretically rip it apart, and other decks ofc.

[Barook]

Miracles, fast Combo, Pernicious Deed. Note that you can still lose to removal-heavy midrange decks (i.e. Jund boarding in a bunch of Ancient Grudge) especially considering most of your deck dies to Punishing Fire.
Couldn't Affinity run Meddling Mage like the old Extended Pierre Canali (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Extended_Affinity_deck) build? Stops Terminus as long as MM isn't StPed, can jam combo key cards and Deed. I'd love to see build utilizing Pikula, Gitaxian Probe and SB Therapies. Hell, with Probe and Pikula, you would run enough blue to justify SB FoWs.

Yes, you would run less artifacts, but between Probe-powered Therapies, Pikulas and FoWs (and maybe some further hate like Revoker or Canonist in the board), shouldn't those match-ups be a bit more doable? And how many decks run Deed realistically today, looking at the DtBs?

I guessed that heavy removal is a problem. Since most of your guys are still robots, couldn't something like Hanna's Custody (disables your Plating plan, though) or Leonin Abunas work?

[Shawon]

Couldn't Affinity run Meddling Mage like the old Extended Pierre Canali (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Extended_Affinity_deck) build? Stops Terminus as long as MM isn't StPed, can jam combo key cards and Deed. I'd love to see build utilizing Pikula, Gitaxian Probe and SB Therapies. Hell, with Probe and Pikula, you would run enough blue to justify SB FoWs.

Yes, you would run less artifacts, but between Probe-powered Therapies, Pikulas and FoWs (and maybe some further hate like Revoker or Canonist in the board), shouldn't those match-ups be a bit more doable? And how many decks run Deed realistically today, looking at the DtBs?

I guessed that heavy removal is a problem. Since most of your guys are still robots, couldn't something like Hanna's Custody (disables your Plating plan, though) or Leonin Abunas work?

Watering down your artifact base yields poor results, so most of those suggestions only sound good in theory. I just got a Meddling Mage yesterday from trade, but I am thinking of testing MM on MWS. Could be of some use against Miracles, but I had combo more in mind.

Etched Champion, in synergy with Cranial Plating or Arcbound Ravager, is your answer against heavy removal.

[apple713]

Watering down your artifact base yields poor results, so most of those suggestions only sound good in theory. I just got a Meddling Mage yesterday from trade, but I am thinking of testing MM on MWS. Could be of some use against Miracles, but I had combo more in mind.

Etched Champion, in synergy with Cranial Plating or Arcbound Ravager, is your answer against heavy removal.

a deck (affinity) that has unfavorable match ups when playing against half the metagame assuming 1/3rd is combo and the other 15% is deed control decks and terminus decks, is probably not worth playing.

I never ever play affinity because every time i play against affinity, no matter what deck I'm playing with, I always consider it the bye round.

[Shawon]

a deck (affinity) that has unfavorable match ups when playing against half the metagame assuming 1/3rd is combo and the other 15% is deed control decks and terminus decks, is probably not worth playing.

I never ever play affinity because every time i play against affinity, no matter what deck I'm playing with, I always consider it the bye round.

What sage advice. Here's a cookie as thanks.

[sdematt]

What Deed heavy control decks in the meta? The last time I saw Deed in the board of BUG or Jund was a long time ago, even as a 2-of. The only players playing Deed right now are Junk and BUG Landstill (a dedicated Deed control deck). Sure, the dedicated control deck is going to beat up on Affinity, but it's still a not-too-bad deck. Heavy removal isn't fun, but Etched Champion sure is. It's not like many people are running Knight into Maze to stop it (and only the other Miracles decks are running EE, Verdict, and Terminus).

Swan Song answers Deed, Terminus, and Pyroclasm, which are the three main sweepers that you'll encounter and can interact with. It just depends if the 2/2 will matter enough for you. considering your play is non-trampling Equipment on 0/2 flying Thopters, you're giving your opponents some edge.


Aggro has been largely swept under the rug of the format by the good midrange decks and control decks that can handle early onslaughts and then proceed to have better plays in turns 4 through forever. Decay, STP, Terminus, and Verdict mean it's very hard to actually get ahead using creatures only as your angle of attack, and as such we've seen Burn do reasonably well against the control decks due to the non-interaction that Burn can provide versus the creature based slight decks of old.

It's, at times, no longer enough to go T1 Nacatl, T2 Goyf, T3 more guyz and hope you get there. Zoo can put up results by a competent pilot and a metagame and set of matchups that allow it to go to the top, but Combo and Control sweepers are keeping true aggro down. Aggro-Control, on the other hand, is alive and well in decks like UWR Blade, RUG Delver, and a few other decks in the format. This is definitely something we could talk about in the Aggro podcast that we plan to do, though.

-------------

Someone posted on the EC site talking about some Vial interaction (I didn't miss it, I chose not to talk about Thassa super in depth. I don't need to make play-by-play constructions of uses of Thassa, I'm sure you guys understand she's a creature who CAN be Vialed) as well as Creeping Tar Pit.

So, I'll own up to not remembering to talk about Tar Pit, so I guess we could talk a little bit about Tar Pit here.

Tar Pit is BUG's later game secret weapon that can assassinate planeswalkers out of nowhere, pressure on board, as well as provide Underground Sea mana when required. The non-interaction between most decks and Tar Pit means Tar Pit can sometimes end up going the distance. The real question is, why can't you interact with Tar Pit, and why is this a good card both for and against midrange decks?

1) Doesn't get hit by Abrupt Decay, as with all the manlands in the format (that don't see play). As with the Standstill decks, a huge advantage of this guy is turning off Decay, but he does get hit by Wasteland, Bolt, Punishing Fires, Swords, Terminus, and Disfigure.

2) Midrange/Control decks have trouble interacting with it. Most midrange decks do not run Swords, Terminus, or Disfigure in the main. The main removal is Abrupt Decay only, or, perhaps some Bolts. Fires is less common. Wastelands are usually used earlier on before Tar Pit comes down, and most decks don't tutor for Wastelands and can therefore fail to have interaction upon an active Tar Pit. You'll see BUG run Disfigure in the board to have more interaction against DRS and SFM, but also against Tar Pit. Jund may have used its Bolts on Walkers or other small creatures, as well as Wastelands, and may not have an answer.

3) It's unblockable. Another piece of non-interaction. Having a 5/6 Goyf or even a Clique don't matter, since they can't block it, even if to trade 1 for 1. The opponent must find removal in time, which most decks are light on the "correct" removal at that point in the game. It's not just removal, it's the CORRECT removal.

Control decks are pressure by Tar Pit since it forces them to overextend. You either have to waste 1/4 STP's, or waste a Terminus getting rid of it (to the bottom). (Miracle) Control decks tend not to run Fires, so they don't have recurring removal for small threats AND the late game manland. Sorcery speed removal like Pyroclasm and Verdict, in addition to EE, don't touch it. Lack of Snapcaster means there's even less removal to go around, meaning the Miracle player can face a swift death at the hands of tar Pit if they haven't saved some removal for it, since Wasteland isn't traditionally played in favour of mana stability.

To combat this, some Miracles decks are running the Grove/Fires combo, and these varieties tend to shit all over BUG/Midrange.

-----


-Matt

[Shawon]

Swan Song answers Deed, Terminus, and Pyroclasm, which are the three main sweepers that you'll encounter and can interact with. It just depends if the 2/2 will matter enough for you. considering your play is non-trampling Equipment on 0/2 flying Thopters, you're giving your opponents some edge.

-Matt

I totally agree, so my only quandary is which variant of Affinity would Swan Song benefit, or more specifically, which Affinity variant can I run that has the beefiest creature base I can use that mitigates the drawback of Swan Song. Master of Etherium is my go-to Goyf in Affinity, and I can see a MD build with a full set of Masters be good with SB Swan Songs.

[twndomn]

Ultimately, Aggro as an archetypal strategy means fast creatures with zero disruption. That's not enough to compete in the big meta. The lack of placing in T16 in large events is evidence of that.

Above's Not a good definition. Aggro means shortest number of turns dealing maximum amount of damage(poison counter), that's a better definition. Don't forget Burn, that's a typical aggro strategy as well.

As to Pernicious Deed, there're many decks still run it:
1. Punishing Nic-fit or just the typical Nic-fit.
2. Some kind of Loam variant deck, doesn't have to be 42 lands.
3. BUG landstill

[Stoyrm]

We'll be doing it eventually, but itll likely focus on aggro control and why thats better than pure aggro in legacy. We will be havi g more guest casts, its just hard orgaizing time zones, especially with europe and asia.

Tsk, you only need to have some interesting students to talk to. Not like we have a bed time we need to maintain!

[nedleeds]

A 2/2 bird matters not against an army of white creatures with Shadow ... wearing Empyrial Armor ...

[HammafistRoob]

Now that's not fair. The only decks I would consider to be Aggro in the current metagame are Affinity, Zoo, and variations of Dredge. Goblins, while appearing to be aggressive, fall into the Vial categorization; lumped along with Death & Taxes, Merfolk, and variations of Maverick.

Of Zoo, Affinity, Dredge -- only Affinity is competitive at the large scale.
Zoo has fallen hard due to Miracles becoming a DtB.
Dredge has always suffered being easy to hate out and now has splash damage from DRS.

Manaless dredge is bad. But it can do good because graveyard hate is pretty low right now. LEDdredge however, is pretty amazing right now because DRS is often times to slow to matter. Surgical Extraction is the most played sideboard hate and you generally need more than that to stand a chance.

About midrange, what do you guys think about something crazy like this:

//LANDS-23
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

//CREATURES-12
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer

//WINCON-4
4 Jace the Mind Sculptor

//SPELLS-21
4 Brainstorm
4 Swan Song
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire


//SIDEBOARD-15
3 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Nihil Spellbomb


Might be crazy enough to work. Would probably smash other midrange decks at least.

[thecrav]

I enjoyed that. However telling people they can misdirect Grindstone seems bad; I expect someone will try it at an event now...

I'm currently editing the next episode, so I'll throw mention of that in. Thanks for pointing it out!

[zulander]

About midrange, what do you guys think about something crazy like this...

Might be crazy enough to work. Would probably smash other midrange decks at least.

No it doesn't... your win con is either Jace, Groves, DRS, and Lavamancer - all of which seem awful. You're gonna durdle around for a while and kill everything for the first 5-6 turns, and then realizing you have no legit win condition, you're going to realize that you just have a control deck that doesn't have a reliant form of control or a midrange deck that has no way to win in the mid-game.

[HammafistRoob]

Seems pretty legitimate for someone who hasn't even played a game with the deck. If you're that concerned about winning quickly before you punt the game you could probably switch the Jaces out for Goyfs. Actually that's probably a good idea. How exactly does this not tool on midrange outside of maybe Goblins? Even gobbs shouldn't be that difficult.

[zulander]

Seems pretty legitimate for someone who hasn't even played a game with the deck. If you're that concerned about winning quickly before you punt the game you could probably switch the Jaces out for Goyfs. Actually that's probably a good idea. How exactly does this not tool on midrange outside of maybe Goblins? Even gobbs shouldn't be that difficult.


Midrange means you have a plan to win in the mid-game, are you really going to try and timmy your way to a victory with grims and DRS? I don't need to play with the deck to know it's going to have serious problems. I don't know if you know this, but other midrange decks have removal as well, and seeing as to how your creatures are x/1 x/2 it's not gonna be hard to kill them. Looks like your best finisher is Jace, and if that's your game plan then you just need a better route to victory for a midrange deck.

[twndomn]

Seems pretty legitimate for someone who hasn't even played a game with the deck. If you're that concerned about winning quickly before you punt the game you could probably switch the Jaces out for Goyfs. Actually that's probably a good idea. How exactly does this not tool on midrange outside of maybe Goblins? Even gobbs shouldn't be that difficult.

1. You grossly underestimate the intelligence of Goblin players and the diverse pool of Goblin cards.
2. Your list is bad, there's a better version of your list called 4 color cascade. Four-Color Cascade played by Peter Tragos has Top 8 in SCG Legacy Open Cleveland (Oct-2013).

[HammafistRoob]

Sorry for trying something new instead of being a netdecker like everyone else. I admit the initial list wasn't well thought out(took me literally five minutes). Seems much better with Goyf instead of Jace.

I also never said anything about the intelligence of Goblin players. I said it's the only midrange deck that could give me trouble, I should also add D&T to that list.

The thought process behind not running Cascade is that it's terrible with countermagic.

Flames removed. -zilla

[zulander]

Sorry for trying something new instead of being a netdecker like everyone else. I admit the initial list wasn't well thought out(took me literally five minutes).


I don't have a problem with thinking outside the box, I have a problem with people who think of a list for 5 minutes and then are offended when people point out why it wont "tool on midrange".


Seems much better with Goyf instead of Jace.
My suggestions wouldn't be to cut Jace completely, Jace is a freaking powerhouse. I'd -1 Jace, -1 Lavamancer, -3 PFires, +4 Goyf, +1 Decay.

That makes your disruption suite:
4 Bolt
4 Decay
3 Lavamancer

3 Spell Snare
**3 Jace

I'm also not sold on Swan Song, and I don't think Force belongs in the deck either, so that gives you 3 additional spots. You don't want Swan Song to cost you UR because you have to kill the token with Lavamancer or even potentially give your opponent a way to attack Jace.

[sdematt]

Song is still solid, especially in a deck splashing blue that doesn't have the count to run Force, at least preboard.

I played a game yesterday where I got to Swan Song a Counterbalance, Snapcaster it back later, then Pyroclasm the board so it didn't matter.

It's all about context, it's only going to be good in certain decks with certain weaknesses and answers to the Swans it creates.

-Matt

[Kayradis]

We need a new podcast.
Just sayin'

[thecrav]

We need a new podcast.
Just sayin'

On the way!

Limited edition spoiler: I had to look up this card (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=150977) during the recording of the next episode.

[L0cke]

On the way!

Limited edition spoiler: I had to look up this card (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=150977) during the recording of the next episode.

Discussing spanish inquisition then?

[Megadeus]

Discussing spanish inquisition then?

My only possible thought. Unless they are talking about regenerate lol

[Valtrix]

But Inquisition now has Deathrite Shaman. So much better :P

[L0cke]

But Inquisition now has Deathrite Shaman. So much better :P

DRS doesn't block Goyf forever though! The trow is too strong...

[thecrav]

This discussion makes me happy.

Got about halfway through editing before having to head to work. I expect to ship it off to be published tomorrow afternoon. Please try to stay on the edge of your seats until then.

[Kayradis]

Well.....I was hoping to hear that cast before heading to the shop.

Im dissapointed now.