The Bant Problem

[Einherjer]

http://i42.tinypic.com/4iznuu.jpg

Ok guys, I give in! I admit I did not manage it on my own.

What the heck am I talking about? Oh, I probably should explain what this all is about.

Ok, ok, let's start. I am under the firm impression that Bant should be one of the formats best decks. I am aware of the fact that all current forms of Bant straight up balls. Still I think that this colorcombination offers everything a good deck needs. Well, let's first take a look about what did not work in the past.

Maverick + Blue = Despite not being utterly awful this deck is probably still straight up worse than Maverick.

GSZ/Knight - Bant = Knight, Clique and Jace in one deck? I don't think that this deck has had any successes.... maybe a 8man-top8 or something...

SFM - Bant = This version can actually play Force of Will due to the ability of playing enough blue spells...still a horrible deck with alot of very bad Match-Ups.

Ok, so why do I think that this deck could be good enough?
1) It plays Blue. Having access to Brainstorm and Force of Will is probably mandatory to a good deck. Additionally Vendilion Clique is very good in the actual meta too, it only seems lackluster against BG/x.
2) It plays White. White offers the best cards in some sections. Swords to Plowshares, for example. Plus we have access to Rest in Peace, which is grand in the current Meta.
3) It plays Green. Creatures? Mine are bigger. Having the possibility of playing Knight of the Reliquary is huge, it's historically proven that KotR will probably always be the biggest creature on the battlefield.

Ok, everybody knew those points and people with vastly more experience than me did not manage to put together a good deck. Now let me mention a few cards that might be good...

First, Loxodon Smiter. Yeah you all know this card and yeah it's no Legacy-staple... but I think this card is worth playing. Being uncounterable is huge, so is the opportunity to flash it in vs Hymn/Lilly. It blocks Nimble Mongoose. It can't be Lightning Bolted. And now, let's move to the most important part: It is 4/4 when a Rest in Peace is in play. I really really want this to work! Smiter would probably smash up all the format when there was a Rest in Peace in play!
But there are other efficient stuff that we have access to, Noble Hierarch, for example. With everybody playing Deathrite Shaman and ourselves playing RIP I think that Hierarch outclasses all other Birds of the Paradise in the format - additionally we get a 5/5 Smiter :)
Mirran Crusader is another card that functions very well under Rest in Peace while hating on the format as a whole, maybe something to consider.

What we may not forget: Keep the Blue-Count considerably high. We will def. need Force of Will in this very format. I suggest 4 Force, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Jace, 3 Clique as the blue core - pumped up with additional blue cards like Ponder.

I tried virtually every combination but couldn't come up with anything good enough! All I got were either shitty Midrange-Decks or worse Stoneforge-Piles. So I bring this topic to the public of TheSource and hope for good input!

Thanks for any time invested!

Greetings

[sdematt]

You should listen to our podcast, where I talk about how Bant is good, but people aren't building it, and how Smiter is a real card.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26840-Podcast-Everyday-Eternal-Midrange-Mania

PM me and maybe we'll have you on the podcast. I think the ACTUAL build that you would want to build is not quite the direction you're going, it's another from a while ago...

-Matt

[luckme10]

Sure bant has a lot of decent cards to play with but... jack of all trades, master of none so to speak.
People used to run green for goyf... bant decided it should cut goyf about two years ago in favor of stoneforge. So what are you really running green for? Noble hierarch? Knight of the Reliquary?
Noble Hierarch is an inferior version of Deathrite Shaman. Like deathrite they're great for early on. Unlike deathrite, it serves no purpose in the mid game.
Knight of the reliquary is crippled in a deathrite heavy metagame.

The best single removal is no longer unanimously swords to plowshares; It's not vindicate, nor is it pulse. A very strong argument can be made for abrupt decay.

Bant can try to go shardless agent. But to be honest, cascading into a counterspell is not what you want to be doing.

Bant could try to add geist of saint traft, but it's a such a polarizing card that half the time it's useless and the other half it's wonderful.

Bant could try natural order again, but wouldn't you rather be playing an emrakul a turn earlier than a progenitus?


Summary: Bant is no longer aggressive enough to act as a tempo based deck and doesn't disrupt opponents enough enough to act as a top mid range deck.

[DLifshitz]

Still I think that this colorcombination offers everything a good deck needs.

Bant is pretty bad at generating card advantage, and hence it loses attrition wars with Jund and Shardless BUG and probably also Miracles.

[Koby]

In my testing (Chikenbok has run similar lists), there are not enough slots in the deck to run more than two of the following:

1) Force of Will
2) Stoneforge Mystic
3) Green Sun Zenith + goodies
4) Snapcaster Mage

Effectively, you run out of slots. I've tested GSZ + Planeswalkers, which worked out well. I'm testing Snapcaster Mage + heavier blue splash for Force of Will, which works too. SFM + GSZ is bordering on GW/u Maverick, and you run out of enough blue cards to support Force of Will, or even Daze.

I like the Snapcaster Mage package personally for this color combination, because it gives you so much utility out of just 4 Swords. I support this increased Jace count and little to no reliance on GSZ.

[lordofthepit]

http://i42.tinypic.com/4iznuu.jpg

GSZ/Knight - Bant = Knight, Clique and Jace in one deck? I don't think that this deck has had any successes.... maybe a 8man-top8 or something...



I used to run a Bant deck similar to Maceij Pasek's Bant list to a lot of success between November 2011 and March 2012 (mostly small local weeklies, but also a top 8 at a 72-man event) before I switched to Esper. I later revisited the deck when one of the local players had a new interesting take on the deck.

Not too many people play Bant, but there are two local players who are considerably more dedicated than I am to the deck (as well as more proficient with the deck). Between the two of them, they have also added a top 4 at an SCG Legacy Open, a top 16 at a Legacy GP, a win at a GP side event, and a win at a PTQ side event. For a while, I was convinced that GSZ/Knight Bant was the best deck in the format. It's certainly a deck that has a lot of 50-50 matchups and rewards pilot skill.

I don't think this is a particularly strong deck in the format right now. None of the matchups are especially bad, but I still wouldn't want to play against anything with a creature you need to kill quickly (e.g. Elves, Goblin, anything with Mother of Runes or Dark Confidant) given that it's a bit light on removal. However, it tends to crush decks like Esper Deathblade and especially Miracles, since you can easily find Qasali Pridemage and/or Gaddock Teeg + Sylvan Safekeeper, as well as ramp into Jace faster than either deck.

[catmint]

Bant is a nice color combination and you can build in different directions. I also wondered why it did not became more popular after it won the GP (Amsterdam I think). Death and Taxes certainly did much better after the GP success.

However, the meta changed since then and I see the Bant problem similar to other posters in this thread:
1) Without black and Thalia your disruption is based on a couple of counterspells and a bit of clique, so due to the slow clock the combo matchup is pretty bad.
2) At the same time your end game is much less powerful in terms of card advantage than esper (souls, jitte), jund (punishing, cascade, hymn) or shardles (visions) and does not have the combo potential of miracles (counter-top & entreat).

The strength of knight was also his "PW like grinding" potential of activating him a couple of times and then having a huge monster. He was a problem for non swords decks, but decay changed that equation and deathrite and RIP did not help either. For many decks you play knight - you trade 1:1 and no harm done... that's not enough in legacy if you invest 3-4 mana.

So the Bant problem is:
Not being able to utilize the best creature-deck hatebear Thalia.
Not being able to utilize snapcaster mage the same way esper does (thoughtseize).
GSZ being too weak as an engine since it does not generate card advantage.

[mini1337s]

In short:
Maverick is generally better at disrupting an opponent's gameplan through Thalia, Teeg, and Wasteland/KOTR.
UW based control (Miracles at this point) is better at 1 for X'ing opponents, generating board and card advantage.
Bant can't combine the best of both these decks as they are so anti-synergistic. Thalia, Teeg, Terminus, Counterbalance, etc are the best parts of those decks, but they are terrible together.

Other UGx decks (BUG in particular) have the ability to play a creature based gameplan backed up by tons of disruption and card advantage, something Bant can't do. Agent, Ancestral Visions, Hymn, etc just ream an opponent and you get to ride a wildly efficient Goyf all the way to victory.

I want this to be a Tier 1 deck, but until it can run that sort of card advantage, it will always be outclassed by BUG and less consistent/powerful than Maverick or UW Miracles.

[The Treefolk Master]

I think the ACTUAL build that you would want to build is not quite the direction you're going, it's another from a while ago...

-Matt

New Horizons, NO Bant and Countertop Bant all come to mind as being UGW decks from a while ago.

Unless you mean further back, and you're referring to UGW Thresh...

I agree on needing some form of card advantage to be able to grind out other midrange decks. You could incorporate Agents of your own (Cascading into Stoneforge Mystic is one of the greates feelings ever), although at that point you'll lose MD, non-force countermagic, and you'll be worse than Shardless BUG (they have discard) against combo decks.

Smiter is awesome, and being invulnerable to RiP is also nice. Maybe capitalize on other cards which are not affected by RiP to beat the mirror? Smiter, Clique, Stoneforge, etc.

[th3 w1z4rd]

http://i42.tinypic.com/4iznuu.jpg

First, Loxodon Smiter. Yeah you all know this card and yeah it's no Legacy-staple... but I think this card is worth playing. Being uncounterable is huge, so is the opportunity to flash it in vs Hymn/Lilly. It blocks Nimble Mongoose. It can't be Lightning Bolted. And now, let's move to the most important part: It is 4/4 when a Rest in Peace is in play. I really really want this to work! Smiter would probably smash up all the format when there was a Rest in Peace in play!
But there are other efficient stuff that we have access to, Noble Hierarch, for example. With everybody playing Deathrite Shaman and ourselves playing RIP I think that Hierarch outclasses all other Birds of the Paradise in the format - additionally we get a 5/5 Smiter :)
Mirran Crusader is another card that functions very well under Rest in Peace while hating on the format as a whole, maybe something to consider.

Greetings

Unfortunately, Knight of the Reliquary is also useless with RIP in play.

[Einherjer]

Unfortunately, Knight of the Reliquary is also useless with RIP in play.

I wouldn't be too sure about this - he is still bigger than alot of the relevant creatures in the format => Goyf, Nimble...

But yeah I am aware of all those Problems, nobody having a breakthrough idea isn't really cheering me up... Maybe this just was a lost quest right from the beginning...

Greetings

[mini1337s]

I wouldn't be too sure about this - he is still bigger than alot of the relevant creatures in the format => Goyf, Nimble...

But yeah I am aware of all those Problems, nobody having a breakthrough idea isn't really cheering me up... Maybe this just was a lost quest right from the beginning...

Greetings

Seriously, if this was a Tier 1 deck, I'd jam it ALL day. The best versions I've seen lately though are more in the vein of Blouses, and I'm not a huge fan of that gameplan.
I JUST WANT TO PLAY SHARDS/ZENDIKAR STANDARD AGAIN (+ Brainstorm).

[Erdvermampfa]

that artwork is pretty nice, care to gimme name of card?

[Barook]

Bant is pretty bad at generating card advantage, and hence it loses attrition wars with Jund and Shardless BUG and probably also Miracles.
Has anybody tried out Daxos of Meletis + Exalted yet? Having a butt of 3+ and not being able to be blocked by 3+ power creatures seems pretty okay. Works also with equipment that pumps him. Sure, it isn't Geist, but Geist also kinda sucks when it runs into enemy Goyfs.

[Meekrab]

that artwork is pretty nice, care to gimme name of card?
Tineye (www.tineye.com) pulls up this:

http://www.magicjebb.com.br/newsimages/news_2009_08_27/planechase_bant.jpg

[Aggro_zombies]

Has anybody tried out Daxos of Meletis + Exalted yet? Having a butt of 3+ and not being able to be blocked by 3+ power creatures seems pretty okay. Works also with equipment that pumps him. Sure, it isn't Geist, but Geist also kinda sucks when it runs into enemy Goyfs.
I suspect that the "must cast this turn" clause on Daxos sinks his chances. Plus, he's very Swords/Bolt-able.

EDIT: Here's how I see Bant:

Historically, you ran Bant because it was a blue Threshold deck that could trump its opponent's threshold creatures with Swords, and also had Meddling Mage to help against combo. Later, you played Bant because it was a blue Tarmogoyf deck that had two trumps to your opponent's Tarmogoyfs in the form of Knight and Swords. Now, I don't think you can justify running all three Bant colors:

- You can make a WU control deck without needing green for finishers;
- You can make a GW aggro deck without needing blue for disruption or card advantage;
- You can make a UG card advantage deck without needing white for removal.

There might be a tempo Bant deck that exists with Delver, Goyf, and Geist, but it is probably worse than RUG in that role.

[Tombstalker]

Bant always had the problem of too many card selections with no clear standouts and not enough room. Many different builds made viable tier 2 decks but no single focused list has ever really emerged.

So far weve seen some of the problems with bant, but heres a few things I feel bant can still do well:

-early tempo plays with hierarch/daze/wasteland (no longer exclusive since DRS but still powerful).
Comparable in power to the similar turn 2 power plays of maverick, BUG and jund.

-ramp to turn 2 clique-> turn 3 jace/natural order (other 4cc bomb maybe?) with potential counter protection.
I think this play is pretty overlooked/underrated. Turn 2 clique is amazing especially with exalted and curves into JtMS beautifully. Such plays with countermagic protection are probably one of if not the main reason to run bant.

-grows bigger and more plentiful goyfs to win goyf wars (exalted + GSZ) vs shardless/jund/thresh.
This aspect of the deck is unique atm since no other zenith deck plays exalted goyfs. Having virtually 7-8 goyfs with the ability to tutor up stall breakers is pretty relevant atm i'd think.

Anyway I hope someone develops a strong bant list because id love to sleeve it up.

[thecrav]

- You can make a WU control deck without needing green for finishers;
- You can make a GW aggro deck without needing blue for disruption or card advantage;
- You can make a UG card advantage deck without needing white for removal.


Additionally, I think with all of these, if you're looking to add another color, you aren't going with the Bant option.

UW control is mostly playing either UWR for bolt and SB options or Esper for disruption and bob
GW aggro is mostly adding Black and becoming more of a midrange / junk deck.
UG you either go Red for bolt and SB options or BUG because drawing a million cards is the tits.

[evanmartyr]

Could you replace some of the countermagic with Misdirection? Especially if your concern is combo and fighting other cascade-value decks.

Just ramp up the blue content, play green for Tarmo/Deathrite/Shardless, and use white to fill the role gaps or side in hate...I mean, at that point you're just playing Shardless BUG with occasionally worthless Misdirections and cooler SB options, but meh?

[nodahero]

ROUGH draft of a potential list

It is probably trying to do too many things but it plays well together for the most part.

As for the nonbo of RIP and Foundry... ehh don't walk yourself into it.

Yes, this is 42 cards and obviously cuts need to be made... ATM my gut says cut STP so it isn't EVER dead and then run 21 lands.
There should ABSOLUTELY be a set of Visions in there also... hmm

4x Shardless Agent
3x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Diving Top
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Force of will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Enlightened Tutor tutor
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Helm of Obidence

[Aggro_zombies]

4x Shardless Agent
3x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Diving Top
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Force of will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Enlightened Tutor tutor
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Helm of Obidence
I feel like you could cut Agents and add Bobs and this deck would be just as good, if not better.

[The Treefolk Master]

ROUGH draft of a potential list

It is probably trying to do too many things but it plays well together for the most part.

As for the nonbo of RIP and Foundry... ehh don't walk yourself into it.

Yes, this is 42 cards and obviously cuts need to be made... ATM my gut says cut STP so it isn't EVER dead and then run 21 lands.
There should ABSOLUTELY be a set of Visions in there also... hmm

4x Shardless Agent
3x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Diving Top
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Force of will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Enlightened Tutor tutor
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Helm of Obidence

I've tested Shardless Bant Thopters; here's the thread on the deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26523-Shardless-Thopters

Here's my updated list, in case anyone's interested:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Karakas
2 Academy Ruins
4 Shardless Agent
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Terminus
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Terminus

My main concern after playing the deck is that you have no answers to resolved, non-creature permaments. If I had to play the deck again I'd try to work around that, and if I can't I'd use the list above.

On another note, could Countertop Bant be a thing. There's been some buzz going around (Everyday Eternal podcast) about going back to Counterthopters to fight Decay by overloading them with targets. Maybe a Bant list running Smiters, Goyfs, maybe even Mystics and Counterbalance could be nice to fight the midrange decks. If they kill your balances, you eat them alive with green dudes. If they kill your creatures, you lock them out. Its just an idea though, and as I type this I realize room is going to be tight.

[DragoFireheart]

On another note, could Countertop Bant be a thing. There's been some buzz going around (Everyday Eternal podcast) about going back to Counterthopters to fight Decay by overloading them with targets. Maybe a Bant list running Smiters, Goyfs, maybe even Mystics and Counterbalance could be nice to fight the midrange decks. If they kill your balances, you eat them alive with green dudes. If they kill your creatures, you lock them out. Its just an idea though, and as I type this I realize room is going to be tight.

I agree. Shardless Bant looks like a deck with untapped potential. You could probably get away with not using the Thopters if you wanted, but there's no harm in running the combo either since it only uses a couple slots and is a massive blowout vs some decks.

[nodahero]

I think the issue with trying to abuse shadlress agent right now is the level of combo prevalent in the field. If you are running any disruption it either a has to cost 3 or more OR its going to be black with pushes us into Shardless Bug.

[emt37]

Am I the only one still playing NO Bant?

It should be played alot more, such a solid deck.

[KobeBryan]

Am I the only one still playing NO Bant?

It should be played alot more, such a solid deck.

Its good, but the thing is that there are better NO decks out there...i.e. Elves.

[Dzra]

I feel like there's two possible ways Bant can really go at the moment. Some sort of Blouses deck using Geist and pumps to just get there and Shardless Bant.

Blouses is basically like a slower but slightly harder to disrupt UG Infect deck. The problem with either is the same though... you're trying to be a combo deck that wins by attacking with non-Emrakul creatures.

I don't think Knight of the Reliquary is well placed at all right now. An early Deathrite Shaman basically ensures that KotR will be relatively small throughout the game. If you aren't running KotR, you probably don't care about GSZ. Stoneforge Mystic is likely who you want for your beater. So how could Bant Stoneblade be any better than Esper Stoneblade? Shardless Agent and the raw CA from Ancestral is the only thing I can think of. Shardless Bant should have pretty positive MUs against the other midranged decks, but it basically forfeits any chance of beating combo game 1. You can try to solve that by boarding in Counterbalances and Flusterstorms, but you have to ask yourself if SFM and Swords are really that much better than discard and Abrupt Decay.

[Kich867]

I had always thought it'd be interesting to run Shardless Agent + Restore Balance. Seems interesting, mid game you could X-for-1 them pretty hard if you're on the backside of it.

[ivanpei]

I played against a legacy bant player who only has duals and fetches in the bant colours. Unfortunately for him this colour combination is pretty weak.

It can't generate card advantage. Outside of jace, nothing else generates cards advantage. If you can't generatetcard advantage, you need to be quick and/or extremely disruptive. Bant can't clock fast enough and it can't disrupt enough with just Force Daze and Clique.

Also the only reason for green is Kotr and Noble. Noble is just ok, and Kotr is much weaker due to deathrite. Kotr is still good in Mav because Mav's manabase is solid enough to support the thespian stage + Kotr combo AND had mother of runes to protect it.

Like posters before have said. Maverick is just the better midrange deck with more synergy in Taalia and Mother of the Runes while Uw stoneforge or miracles just has more gas and card advantage. Hybridized both strategies is just bad.

Natural order in a blue shell is unfortunately painfully slow. It was great during the mental misstep era because mental missteps slowed down the format enough for NO to be relevant. The format is too fast right now. Also liliana and terminus are commonly played answers to progenitus.

[Plague Sliver]

Ah, Bant... *sheds tear*

I had a lot of fun playing this deck - a version with Knight, Hierarchs, Cliques, Jace, no FoW, no SFM. Never had great success, but a lot of fun.

As many have said already, it's too 55/45 or 50/50 in terms of matchups and Knight of the Reliquary is no longer the powerhouse she used to be. And no CA means it loses the attrition war against superior U decks.

The format needs to shift into a non-Abrupt Decay, all Bolts/Punishing Fire metagame for this deck to work again. And I fear we're too far gone for that.

[Kayradis]

I kinda want to be mad and try to fit the new elspeth.

[Zombie]

Hm. Shardless and Elves' fair side are basically predicated in drowning you in a tide of raw card advantage. Shardless mirrors are usually won on the board, though. So less focus on the stack, just make the board a complete bitch to deal with. We still have blue, so we can get a package from the board vs. combo. Nothing's reliant on RIP, so we can screw over PiF decks, Reanimator and RUG.

So, Mom? Like, manadorks+mom, Ancestral. Goyf(+exalted). Agent. NO. Or am I totally insane?

[ironclad8690]

BBD played a sweet bant maverick deck a while ago, though it doesn't have moms. Kinda a SFM/Geist//DRS/Hierarch/Armageddon deck:


Creatures (24)

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands (23)

1 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

Spells (11)

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Armageddon
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
1 Batterskull
4 Meddling Mage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Detention Sphere
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog

[KobeBryan]

i've been trying to think of a new bant list with shardless, helm, e tutor, sfm, and RIP in the maindeck.

Thats significant card advantage with a board control and combo.

[YamiJoey]

So you guys have been throwing around the 'Shardless Bant' thing. I made this list a few months ago but never had a chance to do anything with it, due to not owning half of the cards. Once I've totally finished the UW version, I'll be doing the Green thing and playing something like this:

// Permanents: 18
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
4 Shardless Agent
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Spells: 20
3 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
4 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels

// Lands: 22
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island

// Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Counterbalance
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Cards

Very rough, as I said it's untested. There seems to be a lot of value to be gained from Agent -> Visions, Top, CB, or one of many other cards. Your worst hit is probably an Energy Field with no support, hence the trip RiP, to ensure you hit it early and often. Maybe the RipField could go away in exchange for Cliques, and possibly Engi' in the main with Academy Ruins. (The list I originally made had Ruins in with the 3 RiP's, which sounds terrible.)

Take this as you will. I'm currently splashing Green for Agent, but there's probably other stuff that can be found to work with it. Even if there's not, I think it's worth a shot.

[Erdvermampfa]

So you guys have been throwing around the 'Shardless Bant' thing. I made this list a few months ago but never had a chance to do anything with it, due to not owning half of the cards. Once I've totally finished the UW version, I'll be doing the Green thing and playing something like this:

// Permanents: 18
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
4 Shardless Agent
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Spells: 20
3 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
4 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels

// Lands: 22
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island

// Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Counterbalance
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Cards

Very rough, as I said it's untested. There seems to be a lot of value to be gained from Agent -> Visions, Top, CB, or one of many other cards. Your worst hit is probably an Energy Field with no support, hence the trip RiP, to ensure you hit it early and often. Maybe the RipField could go away in exchange for Cliques, and possibly Engi' in the main with Academy Ruins. (The list I originally made had Ruins in with the 3 RiP's, which sounds terrible.)

Take this as you will. I'm currently splashing Green for Agent, but there's probably other stuff that can be found to work with it. Even if there's not, I think it's worth a shot.

I would run some Long-Term Plans to enhance your Counterbalance performance and your chances to cascade into Ancestral Visions.

[YamiJoey]

That card costs 3-mana. I'm quite unhappy about spending 3-mana on a not-actual-tutor. It still requires set-up afterwards, as you could get the visions, cast an Agent and hit the Tutor that was just above it, ruining everything. 4 SDT's and Brainstorms, alongside an Enlightened Tutor that can hit 1, 2, or 3 seems mostly fine. I would kind of like a second tutor in here, though. Possibly a Detention Sphere. I also feel like maining a Helm wouldn't hurt. It allows us to Tutor for a CB on Jace, Elspeth, or something.

EDIT: It's also proved to be an astonishingly good win condition in the UWr variant I usually run.

EDIT2: Also, this is kind of just turning into a deck thread at this point. I think that the idea that Bant is bad is well beyond here, and I've seen multiple decks from multiple angles. Combo (albeit slow), control, and aggro have all been covered. I think it's less time to say "Is Bant good?" and more the better question of "What cards are good for achieving goal X?". If you want to be aggressive with the Maverick style, does it make sense to play Bant? If not, don't play it. If so, go nuts. Both Voice and Smiter seem to be the mainstays of why Bant Maverick would be good, but they could just be thrown at a Dark Maverick shell. (T2 Loxodon Smiter seems pretty all in.)

[Barook]

I think the issue with trying to abuse shadlress agent right now is the level of combo prevalent in the field. If you are running any disruption it either a has to cost 3 or more OR its going to be black with pushes us into Shardless Bug.
How about Gaddock Teeg and/or Meddling Mage with Mom support?

[YamiJoey]

As a Miracles player, I have to ask people to stop playing Gaddok Teeg and Mother of Runes. It's getting really annoying.

[Kich867]

I think the only reason to go Bant would be to go hella deep on hatebears.

[thefreakaccident]

As a Miracles player, I have to ask people to stop playing Gaddok Teeg and Mother of Runes. It's getting really annoying.

This, plus the karakas, and the cavern to make sure teeg always comes back down. 'GG' Fucking cavern of souls.

[thecrav]

As a Miracles player, I have to ask people to stop playing Gaddok Teeg and Mother of Runes. It's getting really annoying.

I'm usually like "you sit behind your Mom and Teeg, I'll sit behind my E field + RiP. We'll see who blinks first." Then when they blink, you counter that shit because you've been draw-go-ing for the last half hour.

[thefreakaccident]

I'm usually like "you sit behind your Mom and Teeg, I'll sit behind my E field + RiP. We'll see who blinks first." Then when they blink, you counter that shit because you've been draw-go-ing for the last half hour.

The funny thing is that shouldn't ever happen because they run both vial and cavern of souls, your countermagic shouldn't do shit.

Then again, there are bad players who don't run any enchantment hate mainboard (what are they smoking meth between rounds or something?).

[YamiJoey]

This. I generally have an amazing MU Vs Maverick, but the games I lose are to early Thalias and Teegs covered by MoR. (Or when I Needle'd a Deathrite Shaman and topped a RiP the following turn. Yay -1!)

Is there any way to continuously bounce Shardless Agent, other than Venser/Karakas? Because I am so down for that.

[Zombie]

As a Miracles player, I have to ask people to stop playing Gaddok Teeg and Mother of Runes. It's getting really annoying.

As an Elves player, I have to ask people to stop playing Miracles. It's getting really annoying. NO ftw? Enlightened Tutor for Moat, flip Moat for CB. Oh, nice deck you're playing.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played New Horizons and loved the deck. Every time I tapped Goyf/KotR/Vore, it was like I'd overran the opponent with a bus.
Nice deck. Except that those times I'd tap the suckers were pretty rare.
Bant suffers from many troubles like the ineffectivity of its removal (or better yet: StP are pretty effective, but they're no tempo), deck needed either lots of lands (basically 20 is the bare minimum) and/or Hierarchs, and so it had a bit few slots for spells, thus reducing the number of blue cards, additional removal, etc. As much as I loved the deck, I shelved it after a while.

No other Bant I ever played, but seen the price mark of JTMS, I'm glad I sold Tundras and Strands.

[YamiJoey]

As an Elves player, I have to ask people to stop playing Miracles. It's getting really annoying. NO ftw? Enlightened Tutor for Moat, flip Moat for CB. Oh, nice deck you're playing.

Correction; get Helm, counter your thing, kill you next turn. ;)

My g/f is testing Elves for GP Paris. Our relationship is under serious stress right now. xD

[Finn]

Deathrite Shaman + Abrupt Decay = The Bant Problem

[KobeBryan]

abrupt decay not so much. Deathrite definitely.

I'm trying the best I can to revamp this bant deck. This has been my most successful version so far.

lands
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island

creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Judge's Familiar
3 Loxodon Smiter

spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
3 Stifle

artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

enchantment
3 Rest in Peace

sideboard
3 Path to Exile
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Swan Song
1 Relic of Progenitus
[/DECK]

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Interesting take on Bant. I was shocked when I seen no KotR, but yeah, the power of RiP (esp. against DRS and Goyf) can't be overlooked, and the creature base looks solid. I'm just not sure if it's hevay enough, you giot just Bskull and Smiters for the real beats.

[klaus]

Also just a list off the top of my head:

4 BS
2 Ponder
4 FoW
4 STP
3 CB
3 Top

4 Noble Hierarch
3 SFM
3 Goyf
2 SCM
1 QPM
1 Ooze
1 Clique

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Jace
(39)

4 Strand
2 Misty
2 Heath
4 Tundra
4 Trop
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Karakas

SB:
3 Pierce
1 Grip
2 EE
3 Surgical
1 Elspeth
2 BeB
2 Sunlace
1 SoFI

So this list is an allrounder (as most Bant takes appear to be): no super favorable MUs and no really bad ones.

[Ralf]

One could also imagine moving towards a PW heavy build.
Noble hierarch backed up by the new sylvan caryatid into fast Jace, Gideon, Garruk primal hunter could be interesting. This would be a very new Tempo deck. a PW tempo deck !

[Megadeus]

Garruk is a beating. That man is SOOOO Insane in legacy. Dont think I have lost a game where I cast him.

[YamiJoey]

EDIT: I are bad.

[Megadeus]

Making 3/3s while Plusing a planeswalker and then drawing at least 3 cards is pretty damn powerful.

[YamiJoey]

making 3/3s while plusing a planeswalker and then drawing at least 3 cards is pretty damn powerful.

but i can't read.

[Megadeus]

Reading is overrated in a card game where text is king anyway

[twndomn]

Bant is fine, why does OP make it so difficult?

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Geist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Shardless Agent
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Ancestral Vision
4 StP
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace TMS
1 Elspeth

Long story short, Geist wins games, Geist with Stoneforge wins more games.

Shardless into AV/Snapcaster/Stoneforge/StP/DRS/Brainstorm, sounds good. If BUG can do it, so can Bant. Once you go Shardless, you won't go back.

We don't need RiP, just abuse graveyard like everyone else. Snapcaster = more StP, more Brainstorm, more ambush.

If a list is Blade Control + Goyf/Noble, does that make the list Bant?

Stop with the Mom and GSZ, just play Maverick if you want to take that route.

[Megadeus]

In a deck without black sources, and where exalted triggers are probably solid, why DRS over hierarch?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Shardless into AV/Snapcaster/Stoneforge/StP/DRS/Brainstorm, sounds good. If BUG can do it, so can Bant. Once you go Shardless, you won't go back.

I want to believe you, but Shardless into 4x Daze/3x Snapcaster is pretty bad. I'd probably take at least Daze out. Getting a free 2/1 is not the greatest, but not nearly as bad as Daze.

Shardlessing a Stoneforge does sound really great though.

[Kich867]

I've been thinking about this, somewhat in opposition to the decklist posted above, but Bant should probably be trying to hose the BGx / Combo decks in the format right now, that's where it's strengths lay. Why try to abuse the graveyard when you don't have to, RiP shits so hard on so many decks I can't imagine why the focus isn't on that--run Smiter, run RiP, run Mirran Crusader, shit on every graveyard / BGx deck around. RiP doesn't even need to stick around, resolving it and turning their guys into 0/1's and 1/2's is all it takes.

Also daze doesn't..seem appropriate, I don't know what it's doing for the deck or why there's 4 of them, unless you're opting for some sort of tempo deck that runs daze but not stifle, especially with how insanely 3+ drop heavy the list is.

It's just rattling cards off the top of my head but, Bant as a color combination can effectively hose really prominent decks, people just seem to refuse to think about it too deeply. Smiter is actually really good--uncounterable, shits on liliana, shits on Hymns, and is naturally huge. Can't be bolted as well. Also, when you don't have a graveyard, he still hangs around as the biggest dude on the block. This was a list concept I posted to a friend earlier this week when the discussion started:

(The /'s indicate splits or either, being unsure which selection would be better for the deck)

4x Noble Hierarch
3x Loxodon Smiter
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Clique / Qasali Pridemage
1x Geist of Saint Traft

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce

3x Sylvan Library / Jace
3x Rest in Peace
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

23 Lands

// SB:
2x Swan Song
1x Force of Will
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Path to Exile
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Krosan Grip
2x Chill
1x Loxodon Smiter
2x Relic of Progenitus

[KobeBryan]

Bant is fine, why does OP make it so difficult?

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Geist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Shardless Agent
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Ancestral Vision
4 StP
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace TMS
1 Elspeth

Long story short, Geist wins games, Geist with Stoneforge wins more games.

Shardless into AV/Snapcaster/Stoneforge/StP/DRS/Brainstorm, sounds good. If BUG can do it, so can Bant. Once you go Shardless, you won't go back.

We don't need RiP, just abuse graveyard like everyone else. Snapcaster = more StP, more Brainstorm, more ambush.

If a list is Blade Control + Goyf/Noble, does that make the list Bant?

Stop with the Mom and GSZ, just play Maverick if you want to take that route.

Cascading into counters suck. Thats why BUG decks run discard.

[KobeBryan]

I've been thinking about this, somewhat in opposition to the decklist posted above, but Bant should probably be trying to hose the BGx / Combo decks in the format right now, that's where it's strengths lay. Why try to abuse the graveyard when you don't have to, RiP shits so hard on so many decks I can't imagine why the focus isn't on that--run Smiter, run RiP, run Mirran Crusader, shit on every graveyard / BGx deck around. RiP doesn't even need to stick around, resolving it and turning their guys into 0/1's and 1/2's is all it takes.

Also daze doesn't..seem appropriate, I don't know what it's doing for the deck or why there's 4 of them, unless you're opting for some sort of tempo deck that runs daze but not stifle, especially with how insanely 3+ drop heavy the list is.

It's just rattling cards off the top of my head but, Bant as a color combination can effectively hose really prominent decks, people just seem to refuse to think about it too deeply. Smiter is actually really good--uncounterable, shits on liliana, shits on Hymns, and is naturally huge. Can't be bolted as well. Also, when you don't have a graveyard, he still hangs around as the biggest dude on the block. This was a list concept I posted to a friend earlier this week when the discussion started:

(The /'s indicate splits or either, being unsure which selection would be better for the deck)

4x Noble Hierarch
3x Loxodon Smiter
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Clique / Qasali Pridemage
1x Geist of Saint Traft

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce

3x Sylvan Library / Jace
3x Rest in Peace
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

23 Lands

// SB:
2x Swan Song
1x Force of Will
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Path to Exile
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Krosan Grip
2x Chill
1x Loxodon Smiter
2x Relic of Progenitus

This is like my list...i just posted something like this.

[twndomn]

I want to believe you, but Shardless into 4x Daze/3x Snapcaster is pretty bad. I'd probably take at least Daze out. Getting a free 2/1 is not the greatest, but not nearly as bad as Daze.

Shardlessing a Stoneforge does sound really great though.

The previous discussion keeps pointing out how bad this deck's combo match-up is. However, we have to, we just have to play threats like DRS, SFM, and Geist. Daze is the best way to get away with a turn 2/3 play, and to protect our threat somewhat (other than FoW). I'm no fan of Daze, I guess you can do turn 1 DRS and turn 2 SFM with 1 mana open for Spell Pierce instead, but that's even more inconsistent.

Shardless BUG cascades into Thoughtseize, which they don't want to cast more often than you think. Look, say you have 3 Mana and DRS available, play Shardless into Snapcaster means you can use DRS for the mana (assume fetchland/waste) to play a Brainstorm/StP in all likelihood, still not bad.

Shardless into Stoneforge is good, Shardless into Stoneforge with Daze/FoW in hand as back-up is even better.

[nodahero]

I don't think the deck could afford dead cascades.

Also I wouldn't be caught dead playing this deck without Visions.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think the deck could afford dead cascades.

Also I wouldn't be caught dead playing this deck without Visions.

Agree'd. Playing a Cascade deck without Ancestral Visions better be Jund.

[Final Fortune]

Swords to Plowshares alone isn't worth splashing white for anymore, and Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf fight each other for the same role as opposed to Stoneforge Mystic and Lingering Souls which serve complimentary roles. I think the problem with white over black is that Deathrite Shaman is only half as good, you're vulnerable to resolved, non-creature permanents without Abrupt Decay and there are a plethora of black removal spells that do a good enough Swords to Plowshares impression to get by. That's not even considering the tertiary goodies like Tombstalker, Baleful Stix, Dark Confident, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Thoughtseize and SB luxuries black offers for any of the UBG archetypes.

[Kich867]

This is like my list...i just posted something like this.

Your list ran daze, stifle, and judges familiar, how are these similar? That sounds tempo to me, though to some extent I like the judges familiar concept quite a bit. It lets you apply a threat and a force spike on the same turn. This warrants testing...

[Finn]

Your list ran daze, stifle, and judges familiar, how are these similar?Same colors. Duh. :wink:

If you can squeeze in 2 more spot removal spells, you can safely play without since you have the Familiars, which are better in this deck.

[twndomn]

fine, fine~, if you Really Really hate Cascading into counter, how about this then?

4 Aether Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Geist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Shardless Agent
2 Serra Avenger
3 Thoughtbind
4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Ancestral Vision
4 StP


Turn 1 Noble, Turn 2 and onward you are ready to use Thoughtbind. Thoughtbind takes care of the Cascade problem, and it covers most threats except Dreamhall, Terminus, and GSZ for a lot.

Please don't suggest Black, that totally defeat the purpose of a Bant thread.

[Kich867]

fine, fine~, if you Really Really hate Cascading into counter, how about this then?

4 Aether Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Geist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Shardless Agent
2 Serra Avenger
3 Thoughtbind
4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Ancestral Vision
4 StP


Turn 1 Noble, Turn 2 and onward you are ready to use Thoughtbind. Thoughtbind takes care of the Cascade problem, and it covers most threats except Dreamhall, Terminus, and GSZ for a lot.

Please don't suggest Black, that totally defeat the purpose of a Bant thread.

No, Shardless + Ancestral isn't actually a strong enough engine when the rest of your cards suck. This is why Shardless Bug just runs hella powerful cards en masse with just force of will and hymn as it's game one answer to combo. It shits out threats while disrupting the opponent and runs like 3 force of wills, you don't need 7 counterspells maindeck. This is why Shardless doesn't fit in Bant, you're just not doing anything spectacular with him, Shardless into Hymn is like a 3 for 1, that's insane.

Bant wants to be a midrange deck that hoses other midrange decks with a good combo matchup, not a bad version of Shardless BUG.

[KobeBryan]

fine, fine~, if you Really Really hate Cascading into counter, how about this then?

4 Aether Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Geist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Shardless Agent
2 Serra Avenger
3 Thoughtbind
4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Ancestral Vision
4 StP


Turn 1 Noble, Turn 2 and onward you are ready to use Thoughtbind. Thoughtbind takes care of the Cascade problem, and it covers most threats except Dreamhall, Terminus, and GSZ for a lot.

Please don't suggest Black, that totally defeat the purpose of a Bant thread.

I think you are missing the point bud. Its not whether you can construct a bant deck that is just viable. The point is to construct a bant deck that is better than other color combinations. The main focus is to give bant an identity.

So far, if you want a hate bears deck, you can go mav, which is significantly better with the card support.

If you want a show and tell deck, you can go show and tell, sneak attack. This is far better than show and tell, natural order.

If you want a natural order deck, you have elves.

If you want a cascade deck, you have BUG. which is better than any alternative bant has. The only saving grace bant has with cascade is to stoneforge mystic, skull.

The deck just needs an identity, not a mix and match of other colors.

[KobeBryan]

No, Shardless + Ancestral isn't actually a strong enough engine when the rest of your cards suck. This is why Shardless Bug just runs hella powerful cards en masse with just force of will and hymn as it's game one answer to combo. It shits out threats while disrupting the opponent and runs like 3 force of wills, you don't need 7 counterspells maindeck. This is why Shardless doesn't fit in Bant, you're just not doing anything spectacular with him, Shardless into Hymn is like a 3 for 1, that's insane.

Bant wants to be a midrange deck that hoses other midrange decks with a good combo matchup, not a bad version of Shardless BUG.

I think at this point, the only way for bant to compete is exalted geist blade.

[Kich867]

I think at this point, the only way for bant to compete is exalted geist blade.

Like I get that sweepers aren't huge right now but Geist doesn't need exalted to win the game, he just needs to make it through, and noble hierarchs are enough exalted.

[kingsey]

I think at this point, the only way for bant to compete is exalted geist blade.

Correct. Do you have a baseline list for this yet? I'm game for brewing

[KobeBryan]

lands
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island

creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Judge's Familiar
3 geist / loxodon - debating which one is better at this point to deal with lilianas.

spells
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Stifle

artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

enchantment
3 Rest in Peace

sideboard
3 submerge
2 Flusterstorm
2 pithing needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Swan Song
1 force of will
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 vendilion clique
[/DECK]

[KobeBryan]

lands
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island

creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Judge's Familiar
3 geist / loxodon - debating which one is better at this point to deal with lilianas.

spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
3 Stifle

artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

enchantment
3 Rest in Peace

sideboard
3 Path to Exile
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Swan Song
1 Relic of Progenitus
[/DECK]

problem with geist over loxodon is that geist is sometimes a pathetic 2/2. We dont' run any main deck swords so it doesnt increase the battle power to a 4/4.

It is also more mana intensive since you really want to drop sword, equip and swing.

[kingsey]

Your playing the ORLY owl over delver?

I like RiP main deck.

[Megadeus]

problem with geist over loxodon is that geist is sometimes a pathetic 2/2. We dont' run any main deck swords so it doesnt increase the battle power to a 4/4.

It is also more mana intensive since you really want to drop sword, equip and swing.

To be fair you can do that as early as T4 with Noble Out

[kingsey]

What about
Turn 1 Noble
Turn 2 Geist
Turn 3 Elspeth

Impossible?

[KobeBryan]

Your playing the ORLY owl over delver?

I like RiP main deck.

not enough spells for the flip.

the stifle wasteland package helps keep their land count low.

I also see the UWR geist decks where they play 19 lands. I guess it may be sufficient.

[KobeBryan]

To be fair you can do that as early as T4 with Noble Out

Of course you can. But how often is that to be honest. I have had my nobles bolted, plowed more times than i remember. Its almost a removal magnet...though not as much as DRS

[Megadeus]

Not impossible. Vs a non blue fair deck thats probably GG.

[apple713]

What about
Turn 1 Noble
Turn 2 Geist
Turn 3 Elspeth

Impossible?

not impossible just highly improbable....



i think the problem with bant is that it doesnt do anything better than other color combinations. I think its unanimously agreed that blue and white go very well together. The third color is the one to work on.

Things to think about are

What are you trying to accomplish? more tempo, aggro or control?
if aggro -> red is better
if control -> black is probably better
if tempo -> play rug?

If you don't wanna take that approach consider this

compare his deck to esperblade, then consider what green does better than black...not much...i think tarmogoyf and loxodon smiter are the best things that come out of green in black's absence.
green won't give you an edge vs combo so its easily compared to red, which offers cards like grim lavamancer that just wrecks creature based decks and young pyromancer

[twndomn]

Bant is the Only color going along with WU to play Shardless. That alone is good enough.

At this point, Bant means 2 things:
1. Noble
2. Shardless

You can consider GSZ, but you'll eventually end up with Maverick.

I'm perfectly fine taking Bant to the Shardless route, along with Geist and Stoneforge, still in the process of testing. Do not even consider Delver, if you want to play Delver, just play WUR Delver, or RUG Delver.

[Dzra]

Like Final Fortune said, the problem is that White and Green aren't needed alongside each other. Green has Goyf, which favors an earlier and more aggressive plan. White has SFM, which favors a slightly more late-game plan. The point is that you don't need both. The one good reason to run Green and White together was Knight of the Reliquary, which is now bad due to Deathrite (and the entire GBx shell itself). Even Maverick has moved away from Green and has been replaced with Death and Taxes (sometimes with a slight G splash for SB options).

If there isn't a compelling reason to run Green and White together then it doesn't actually matter what the third color is. GWU, GWB, and GWR are all pretty lackluster right now. GWB is actually the closest thing that GW has to being a deck, and that is only because it is heavily leaning on the strength of the GBx shell. Casting Savage Summoning or Spectral Flight on an Exalted Geist of Saint Traft and hoping for no Terminus is probably about as good as it gets for Bant at the moment.

[DragoFireheart]

Like Final Fortune said, the problem is that White and Green aren't needed alongside each other. Green has Goyf, which favors an earlier and more aggressive plan. White has SFM, which favors a slightly more late-game plan. The point is that you don't need both.

I disagree. Having both seems pretty sweet to me and forces them to choose which they want to kill.

[nodahero]

While having options to pressure or control the opponent are handy--- the number of times your deck won't give you the right mix will usually cause more losses then having access to either option.

[Tombstalker]

I've been tinkering with bant lately too and while it is hard to find a reason to invest heavily in green, a UW list with shardless is technically bant.. right?

I'm thinking shardless bant has some definite appeal over its counterpart, maybe similar to blade control but more focus on midrange aggro rather then pure control. Full shardless visions, full SFM with double batterskull, cliques, geist, full RIP. Post board bring in restore balance as a pseudo miracle board wipe since we don't have to cast it off cascade if it's not favorable.

[KobeBryan]

I did some further testing. I dropped the stoneforge package because the stifle waste was a tempo deck and stoneforge was more of a mid range grinder. So the stoneforge went.

What came in were 3 geists and 4 qasali pridemages.

I played 5 matches against jund and i won every single one of them. I was shocked! the Judge's familiar stopped their lilianas from sacrificing me and these flying birds actually put a beating on some decks. It was flying in at 4/4 most of the time.

Long story short, the geists were there to finish the game with exalted triggers while the judge's familiar put a good beating against delver decks. Most decks aren't willing to trade their delver for my stupid bird.

More testing needs to be done. The only reason for green has been for exalted triggers.

[Tombstalker]

Daze/waste/hierarch is a powerful combination, I'm currently playing NO RUG simply because I really enjoy it and daze/hierarch are still very good together. Judges familiar is an interesting choice I hadn't thought of. I think cascading into visions SFM and RIP is worth exploring though. shardless naturally combat discard, RIP combats nearly everything in some form while bringing in mirran crusaders or balances seems pretty damn good against most creature strategies. Opposing PWs would be a problem with only the flash creatures as answers though.

[crow_mw]

Judge's Familiar should work quite well with maindeck Thalias, no ?

I do not know however, why everyone is so pumped about MD RiPs. Sure it mucks midrange aggro decks, but without helm this is just a hate card, that does nothing in many matchups. It does nothing against Elves and Goblins, nothing against Show and Tell variants, nothing against stuff like d'n't. ANT can easily combo off without Past in Flames and while it does shrink Goyf, you need to be casting (trying to cast) other cards against Delver decks. And clearly you do not want to play it against Miracles who run Helm of their own...

[Tombstalker]

crow_mw
Judge's Familiar should work quite well with maindeck Thalias, no ?

I do not know however, why everyone is so pumped about MD RiPs. Sure it mucks midrange aggro decks, but without helm this is just a hate card, that does nothing in many matchups. It does nothing against Elves and Goblins, nothing against Show and Tell variants, nothing against stuff like d'n't. ANT can easily combo off without Past in Flames and while it does shrink Goyf, you need to be casting (trying to cast) other cards against Delver decks. And clearly you do not want to play it against Miracles who run Helm of their own...
This is all true. Meh, I guess Im just intrigued by maindeck RIP and chance to board in balances then anything. Ive been trying to approaching the deck from the perspective of building a midrange deck to beat on the other midrange decks. IMO bant cant do tempo or control as well as the other established archtypes and might not be able to do anything better at this point sadly. Anyway heres where I'm stuck:

Creatures 12
4 stoneforge mystic
4 shardless agent
3 clique (mirran crusader?)
1 geist

Instants 17
4 ancestral vision
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 StP
1 E.tutor

Enchantments 5
3 Rest in Peace
2 detention sphere

Plainswalkers 3
3 Jace

Artifacts 3
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 helm of obedience/sword/2nd batterskull??

Lands 20
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
2 island
2 windswept heath
2 misty rainforest
2 horizon canopy
1 tropical island
1 karakas
1 forest
1 plains

Theres plenty of good options in these colors but squeezing them all is an absolute bitch. If anything this exercise illustrates why bant isnt a deck!!
Loxodon smiters look tasty with RIP but theres the room issue, plus I think visions counteracts discard just as well/better.
Hierarchs are sweet but without GSZ their inclusion feels weak and unreliable.
Judge's familiar I want to be good but investing 2 mana in a future counter that only taxes instants/sorceries (not PWs especially) just doesnt feel that powerful either, not compared to other 2 drops.
Maindeck meddling mages would be sweet to pull off but theyre similar to a UW cabal therapy in skill intensity.
The manabase is decent I believe which is a plus and karakas is a nice lil' bonus, canopy for E.tutor too. 4 FoW 3 clique is just OK.. would become so much better with some ramp like T1 hierarch/arbor for T2 cliques.. removal feels weak too.. idk but damn this color combination anyway.

[twndomn]

Brainstorm is questionable.

Let's look at Shardless targets:
A Vision
Jitte
StP
E Tutor
RiP

That's way too many utilities and card drawing without actual beats. In fact, you really want to Shardless into Stoneforge, since that's a free beater plus tutor. I would take out at least 2 RiP, since you can E Tutor the last one. Put in 2 Serra Avenger.

If you like Judge's familiar, Avenger provides better beats. I'm still more inclined to go with DnT route.

[YamiJoey]

Brainstorm is questionable.

In what way is Brainstorm ever questionable?

[twndomn]

In what way is Brainstorm ever questionable?

That list Tombstalker posted has 12 creatures, 12. Are we playing a weak version of Shardless BUG? I would at least expect Noble or DRS as some kind of Mana accelerator. The Top4 in SCG Legacy Open Seattle (Apr-2013) list by Bryan Hawley has 16 creatures with 4 Nobles. Look, you have to up your creature count somehow, if not via Brainstorm, then via some other slots.

Shardless Bant, Top8 in Philadelphia Legacy Series (Aug-2013) by Jeremy Fehon
4 Shardless Agent
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas

As to Fehon's list, Cascading into a Goyf is nice, but I still think Geist is warranted, at least run 1 MD. He has Geist in the SB.

[Tombstalker]

Ya my list kinda sucks.. thing is that one does too man. theyre all clunky. Ive been testing with/without goyf, smiter, RIP, hell even promise of bunrei + restore balance and I think it just doesnt work as well as BUG. Not enough early offensive power or 1 drops to justify excluding black or including RIP. Hope someone else has some luck here.

[YamiJoey]

You do realise that Brainstorm + Shardless Agent is one of the best fair combos you could possibly hope to play, right? If you're playing Shardless Agent, you MUST play Brainstorm. Not doing so is straight wrong.

[nodahero]

Another idea just poped into my head... what about playing Hatebears in here? Cascadeing into them isn't errible and I will gladly pay 1 more for an Ancestreal with Thalia in play.

Thoughts?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Another idea just poped into my head... what about playing Hatebears in here? Cascadeing into them isn't errible and I will gladly pay 1 more for an Ancestreal with Thalia in play.

Thoughts?

I think the problem is more so that you don't want to wait until you have 4 mana on the chance that you will hit a non-creature, and paying 1 for something like Brainstorm isn't nearly as fun.

[Dark Ritual]

My issue with bant is that it has gotten little to no new cards in newer sets a la BGx decks getting abrupt decay and deathrite shaman while bant in terms of the last year has gotten next to nothing (daxos of meletis screams lorescale coatl to me. Loxodon smiter is really just tech against liliana of the veil at the end of the day because an uncounterable 4/4 for 3 isn't going to break legacy.) On top of that, bant has really evolved into maverick in all reality because maverick is better than bant at what it is trying to accomplish and maverick isn't really that amazing right now.

[Dzra]

On top of that, bant has really evolved into maverick in all reality because maverick is better than bant at what it is trying to accomplish and maverick isn't really that amazing right now.

More than that even. Bant (New Horizons mainly) evolved into Maverick with the printing of Thalia as the best hate bear ever. Since then things have shifted yet again, this time to mono-W. Knight of the Reliquary, Ooze, and value-based graveyard dependency in general is no longer as reliable as it was pre-Shaman and therefore KotR has been replaced by Mirran Crusader (and SFM).

[Tylert]

More than that even. Bant (New Horizons mainly) evolved into Maverick with the printing of Thalia as the best hate bear ever. Since then things have shifted yet again, this time to mono-W. Knight of the Reliquary, Ooze, and value-based graveyard dependency in general is no longer as reliable as it was pre-Shaman and therefore KotR has been replaced by Mirran Crusader (and SFM).

Please... Death and taxes existed before maverick died... :(

[Raystar]

Please... Death and taxes existed before maverick died... :(

I'm pretty sure that Maverick is in the DTB section....far from dead imo.

[Barook]

I'm pretty sure that Maverick is in the DTB section....far from dead imo.
I'd wait for the October update. Maverick has tons of trouble against many of the current DTB, be it against Miracles, Jund, BUG Shardless, Elves or Storm combo. Stuff like Painter's Servant also isn't very favorable.

[Einherjer]

The Bant Problem? Solved.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26884-Commander-2013-discussion&p=758341&viewfull=1#post758341

Greetings

[YamiJoey]

The Bant Problem? Solved.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26884-Commander-2013-discussion&p=758341&viewfull=1#post758341

Greetings

It's in a UW deck with Stoneforge and Jitte, that's for sure.

[Einherjer]

You are probably correct, but let a man dream.

Greetings

[twndomn]

More than that even. Bant (New Horizons mainly) evolved into Maverick with the printing of Thalia as the best hate bear ever. Since then things have shifted yet again, this time to mono-W. Knight of the Reliquary, Ooze, and value-based graveyard dependency in general is no longer as reliable as it was pre-Shaman and therefore KotR has been replaced by Mirran Crusader (and SFM).

Maverick is known to do horrible against combo decks. I'm convinced that Bant's superior in that regard. 4 FoW + 3 Clique, that's all you need against combos game 1, yet Maverick can't do that. This reasoning alone, I would favor Bant over Maverick.

Turn 1 Noble
Turn 2 Shardless/Geist

That's decent against any match-ups, with or without FoW back-up.

[crow_mw]

It's in a UW deck with Stoneforge and Jitte, that's for sure.

I think he is very strong in Bant shell (well, he is strong regardless, but there are two important pros of running him in Bant shell), especially against fair decks.

1) The acceleration. When you are playing Noble Hierarchs you surely want to accelerate into some broken 3/4 cmc spell. Kotr used to fill that role, now you can cast t2 Nemesis.
2) Obviously exalted works well with him. Not only does bant run equips to power him up, but also run exalted guys to turn him into 4 or even 3 turn clock.

And if you are on defensive, you can just sit behind him, until you draw something to win you the game.

[Eldamion]

I did some further testing. I dropped the stoneforge package because the stifle waste was a tempo deck and stoneforge was more of a mid range grinder. So the stoneforge went.

What came in were 3 geists and 4 qasali pridemages.

I played 5 matches against jund and i won every single one of them. I was shocked! the Judge's familiar stopped their lilianas from sacrificing me and these flying birds actually put a beating on some decks. It was flying in at 4/4 most of the time.

Long story short, the geists were there to finish the game with exalted triggers while the judge's familiar put a good beating against delver decks. Most decks aren't willing to trade their delver for my stupid bird.

More testing needs to be done. The only reason for green has been for exalted triggers.

So how looks your list right now?

Being and old-school Bant player, I like a lot of the following concepts:
- many mana dorks and armageddon, maybe not good enough vs opponents with deathrite
- NO Bant, here the judge's familiar looks pretty solid
- all the successful bant decks at the last GP were Stoneforge bant, that is a clear statement
- dark depths combo in a bant shell with hatebears

[YamiJoey]

Woah woah! I didn't say that I don't want a Teeg there stopping all of the Terminis and things, not that KotR and Goyf would be bad. I like this in a Bant deck, but it's a Green splash.

[KevinTrudeau]

The Bant Problem? Solved.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26884-Commander-2013-discussion&p=758341&viewfull=1#post758341

Greetings

Ha, beat me to it.

Seems like a perfect compliment, from an intuitive mindset, to both Noble Hierarch and Stoneforge Mystic. The efficacy of a "supreme 3-drop beater" remains to be seen in a format with a strong T2-T3 combo presence, a BUG deck (Shardless BUG) that drops an absolute haymaker every turn after T2-T3, etc., but in tandem with the bevy of options the Bant shell can offer (a Vial-based deck, a reactionary Spell Pierce/Stifle/1 CMC answers-until-a-window-opens-up deck a la Next Level Thresh, etc.), it certainly piques one's interest.

[KobeBryan]

So how looks your list right now?

Being and old-school Bant player, I like a lot of the following concepts:
- many mana dorks and armageddon, maybe not good enough vs opponents with deathrite
- NO Bant, here the judge's familiar looks pretty solid
- all the successful bant decks at the last GP were Stoneforge bant, that is a clear statement
- dark depths combo in a bant shell with hatebears

No complete list yet. But i can tell you I will be playing the stoneforge package with exalted and that new merfolk.

[twndomn]

My vision of Bant is really a smarter version of DnT, a mutation from DnT and Merfolk. What does that mean?
1. Merfolk doesn't run Brainstorm, it has standstill to draw 3, with vial.
2. DnT doesn't run Brainstorm, with vial.

The idea is to run the bare minimum to combat combos, no I don't consider Thalia a valid choice. If you try my version, cascading into an Avenger is much better than cascading into a Goyf. Avenger actually gets to opponent's face and it blocks Goblin and Delver just fine. When Delver's this rampant in the format, Avenger deserves more recognition.

4 Aether vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Serra Avenger
4 Shardless Agent
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancestral Vision

2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

[Megadeus]

Shardless Agent looks awful in that list. Shardless into noble, vial, STP (sometimes), and Serra Avenger early is terrible.

[Final Fortune]

It's probably insane to suggest this, but with the new 3 drop merfolk sort of taking over Tarmogoyfs mantle, would anybody run Green Sun's Zenith just for the Dryad Arbor and a couple of specific targets like Ooze and Pridemage MD with a Teeg in the board?

Something like,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 True Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Battering Skull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Creeping Ooze
1 Leonin Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch

and then fill out the rest of the blue cards with like either Clique or Jace?

[rancOr_]

This card is for real.. Whether its in Merfolk, Bant, UWx Stoneforge or any other deck. The power level of this card is absurd..

[Richard Cheese]

It's probably insane to suggest this, but with the new 3 drop merfolk sort of taking over Tarmogoyfs mantle, would anybody run Green Sun's Zenith just for the Dryad Arbor and a couple of specific targets like Ooze and Pridemage MD with a Teeg in the board?

Something like,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 True Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Battering Skull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Creeping Ooze
1 Leonin Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch

and then fill out the rest of the blue cards with like either Clique or Jace?

I like this as a starting point, although I'd probably run a Sword or two for equipment in the main over Batterskull. I'd probably not run 4 GSZ with that few targets, but as a 1-or 2-of it's not a bad idea. Qasali seems good enough to include one or two more. I'd like to see Geist in there too, and Elspeth, but I guess that's the nature of the Bant Problem...too many good cards, hard to focus on a cohesive strategy.

[KobeBryan]

I like this as a starting point, although I'd probably run a Sword or two for equipment in the main over Batterskull. I'd probably not run 4 GSZ with that few targets, but as a 1-or 2-of it's not a bad idea. Qasali seems good enough to include one or two more. I'd like to see Geist in there too, and Elspeth, but I guess that's the nature of the Bant Problem...too many good cards, hard to focus on a cohesive strategy.

you cannot build the deck with gsz, fow, and stoneforge package. it just isn't enough room.


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Plains

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
1 Ponder

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Trying this decklist out for a bit. I may want more gy hate at this point. but i dont really see the need for green except for exalted and mana dork ramps.

[Tombstalker]

I agree GSZ and vial dont belong with shardless plus vial doesnt like so many 3 drops.

Serra avenger otoh is very intriguing, only thing is she really wants vial unless we cut her numbers back, plus shes hard to squeeze in when even clique is getting hard to squeeze.

Hmm maybe combine a few of the ideas weve seen so far into something like this:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Shardless Agent
4 Vendilion Clique
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Unexpected Absence

21 lands

Hierarchs for acceleration, SFM package, then 7 evasive blade carriers with preference to clique since the deck only packs 4 FoW as counters.
Then we have shardless into SFM/visions//UA/jitte/brainstorm, with StP and hierarch actually being the worst cascades in the deck.. thats pretty damn good when you can call StP a bad free spell.
Meanwhile cascading into white submerge for any nonland permanent is just sick who cares if they recast it because its still a serious tempo play.
Thoughts?

[Final Fortune]

I haven't had a problem with playing GSZ and Stoneforge packages, as long as you curve out at 3 with Cliques you have enough disruption not to easily lose to combo; the problem tho' is the deck is all card quality and no card advantage.

As it is, I don't see how what you're doing is any better than the new Esperblade lists being thrown around. I also think there's a strong chance that Swords to Plowshares is going to be a lot worse in the near future, which makes me question white's utility beyond Stoneforge Mystic quite a bit.

[bruizar]

I'm surprised that Sylvan Library isn't getting any love here. Sylvan Library is such a good card, I understand that Abrupt Decay makes it worst than SDT perhaps, but the ability to draw extra cards offsets the trade with Abrupt Decay imo.

[twndomn]

I haven't had a problem with playing GSZ and Stoneforge packages, as long as you curve out at 3 with Cliques you have enough disruption not to easily lose to combo; the problem tho' is the deck is all card quality and no card advantage.


If you insist on GSZ, I don't understand why you are not playing Maverick. Are you sure you're not just a bad Maverick deck jamming Clique and FoW into it?


I'm surprised that Sylvan Library isn't getting any love here. Sylvan Library is such a good card, I understand that Abrupt Decay makes it worst than SDT perhaps, but the ability to draw extra cards offsets the trade with Abrupt Decay imo.

See my post on the earlier page, there is a Shardless Bant deck with Sylvan Library that Top 8 in a tournament.


I agree GSZ and vial dont belong with shardless plus vial doesnt like so many 3 drops.
Hierarchs for acceleration, SFM package, then 7 evasive blade carriers with preference to clique since the deck only packs 4 FoW as counters.
Then we have shardless into SFM/visions//UA/jitte/brainstorm, with StP and hierarch actually being the worst cascades in the deck.. thats pretty damn good when you can call StP a bad free spell.
Meanwhile cascading into white submerge for any nonland permanent is just sick who cares if they recast it because its still a serious tempo play.
Thoughts?

That's not true. I agree to the point where GSZ and vial should not be in the same deck, it's one or the other. You only win condition is creature Beatdown, so is DnT, Merfolk, Goblin (excluding commander/sharpshooter). Why don't you want to play Vial when they are playing Vial? If you are not playing Vial, are you suggesting GSZ, then why not just take another step and play Maverick? I'm convinced that playing GSZ in Bant is just an inferior version of Maverick.

Look at DnT, Merfolk, Goblin, and Maverick, all of them don't run Brainstorm. You're too concerned about cascading. I'm doing fine when I pitched Shardless to FoW, I can be on the Vial plan. Shardless with 2 Noble is a decent 4/4 Beat. I cannot remember how many times I just have one Shardless as a threat, while 2 Noble and 3 lands with FoW as back-up.

I can be very comfortable, Vial in Avenger, Avenger actually gets the equipment and actually gets the sword trigger, and actually gets to block Delver, and race opponent's life total, while serving well as blocker, all these benefits are better than Goyf tapped to attack and ran into a blocker. Flying and Vigilance in a Bant deck is just incredible.

[Tombstalker]

That's not true. I agree to the point where GSZ and vial should not be in the same deck, it's one or the other. You only win condition is creature Beatdown, so is DnT, Merfolk, Goblin (excluding commander/sharpshooter). Why don't you want to play Vial when they are playing Vial? If you are not playing Vial, are you suggesting GSZ, then why not just take another step and play Maverick? I'm convinced that playing GSZ in Bant is just an inferior version of Maverick.

Look at DnT, Merfolk, Goblin, and Maverick, all of them don't run Brainstorm. You're too concerned about cascading. I'm doing fine when I pitched Shardless to FoW, I can be on the Vial plan. Shardless with 2 Noble is a decent 4/4 Beat. I cannot remember how many times I just have one Shardless as a threat, while 2 Noble and 3 lands with FoW as back-up.

I can be very comfortable, Vial in Avenger, Avenger actually gets the equipment and actually gets the sword trigger, and actually gets to block Delver, and race opponent's life total, while serving well as blocker, all these benefits are better than Goyf tapped to attack and ran into a blocker. Flying and Vigilance in a Bant deck is just incredible.
Im actually a huge fan of aether vial. I also wasnt pushing zenith as you'll notice if you look at what I proposed.
I did try to maximize cascade, because why else would we want a 2/2 beater if not to cascade into good stuff for free?

I like serra avenger and I have a set currently collecting dust. I think its a great idea, I just dont like vial as a potential cascade. Meanwhile the cc1-2 count is really low in your list to support vial (4 at cc1, 6 at cc2 and 10 at cc3). IMO in that list vial will not usually be the immediate pressure button it is in DnT or similar.

Maybe consider losing shardless visions altogether to free up more creature slots plus room for brainstorm and daze? idk.

[KobeBryan]

The real question is...do you believe green for color ramp and exalted triggers are better than 1 CMC discard in a slow grinding deck?

I still believe Esper colors are better suited than anything bant can put together.

[Megadeus]

If I turn 2 Shardless into a Serra Avenger, I still can't cast it right?

[Tombstalker]

Correct although I doubt it will come up that often, only when you cast shardless T2 and then the proposed list only has 2 avengers..

[KobeBryan]

Correct although I doubt it will come up that often, only when you cast shardless T2 and then the proposed list only has 2 avengers..

The only worth while to play white with shardless is sfm.

White doesn't offer anything better than black at this point.

[Megadeus]

STP is still a damn good card. Cascading into Pridemage is always solid as well!

[ShiftyKapree]

I think we need to revert back to the Natural Order builds and not with KoTR. Instead of KoTR we use Rhox War Monk in place, mostly because of all the deathrites in the field currently. Also maybe two elspeths in the deck. I wouldn't use SFM, I would rather use Quasali Pridemage instead to counteract your opponents SFM's. I would really like to see a NO CBT list do well in the current meta or within the next year just because I loved playing that deck.

[Megadeus]

I think we need to revert back to the Natural Order builds and not with KoTR. Instead of KoTR we use Rhox War Monk in place, mostly because of all the deathrites in the field currently. Also maybe two elspeths in the deck. I wouldn't use SFM, I would rather use Quasali Pridemage instead to counteract your opponents SFM's. I would really like to see a NO CBT list do well in the current meta or within the next year just because I loved playing that deck.

I'd just play smiter over the rhox personally

[ShiftyKapree]

I'd just play smiter over the rhox personally
I really think lifelink is better than can't be countered in the list. gaining 4-5 life a hit from RWM is like time walking some deck lists

[Dzra]

Something like this could actually be a deck...

//Lands 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea

//Creatures 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Geist of Saint Traft

//Spells 24
4 Spectral Flight
4 Unstable Mutation
4 Savage Summoning
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

[DragoFireheart]

Something like this could actually be a deck...

//Lands 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea

//Creatures 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Geist of Saint Traft

//Spells 24
4 Spectral Flight
4 Unstable Mutation
4 Savage Summoning
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

TNN is awesome in this deck. DRS and NH will get him out sooner. NH will boost his attack power. SFm can give him cool equips to smash shit with.

I personally would rather have Goyf over Geist. Geist is really bad if they have any blockers. FFS, even Thaila checks him.

[Final Fortune]

If you insist on GSZ, I don't understand why you are not playing Maverick. Are you sure you're not just a bad Maverick deck jamming Clique and FoW into it? .

I don't understand this criticism, GSZ aggro-control-combo decks, the ol' Natural Order decks, and GSZ aggo-control decks, the ol' New Horizons, were around long before Maverick was, and I can just as easily say are you sure you'll actually survive the metagame without Force of Will, Daze and Vendillion Clique with as much combo as there is running around? Jund has a hard enough time vs. Belcher, Hermit and TES, Maverick is a pretty risk choice.

The 8 mana dork idea sounds pretty interesting tho', maybe a good compromise that opens up about 3 slots.

[thecrav]

Reid Duke is 6-1 going into round 8 of the Indy Open playing Bant. I'll be interested to see the list.

A big name played playing a deck, especially if he tops, usually means more people will start playing it just to try out a pro's tech.

[KobeBryan]

Reid Duke is 6-1 going into round 8 of the Indy Open playing Bant. I'll be interested to see the list.

A big name played playing a deck, especially if he tops, usually means more people will start playing it just to try out a pro's tech.

Lets hope so.

[Tormod]

Reid Duke is 6-1 going into round 8 of the Indy Open playing Bant. I'll be interested to see the list.

A big name played playing a deck, especially if he tops, usually means more people will start playing it just to try out a pro's tech.

I think Noble, Daze, GSZ, Brainstorm is the glue to his deck.

Jace/brainstorm + shuffle effects (SFM, fetches, GSZ) gives huge digs and search

[KobeBryan]

I think Noble, Daze, GSZ, Brainstorm is the glue to his deck.

Jace/brainstorm + shuffle effects (SFM, fetches, GSZ) gives huge digs and search

That means no FOW, if you go SFM and gsz

[ironclad8690]

I know we are all glued to our seats right now rooting for good guy Reid Duke.

[Megadeus]

Rooting for elves here

[Megadeus]

Well played by Reid duke. Hoping they put deck lists up at some point soon

[Gaius Darkfire]

Well played by Reid duke. Hoping they put deck lists up at some point soon

It's up now (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60210), listed as Maverick. Looks like a lot of fun, a few interesting sideboard choices too.



Creatures (16)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

Spells (19)
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Meddling Mage
1 Humility
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell
1 Envelop
4 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam

[Megadeus]

Humility in a KOTR deck is certainly an interesting choice indeed

[Tormod]

That means no FOW, if you go SFM and gsz

Well played sir, good call on that one.

SCG continues its trend of misnaming decks "Maverick"

[Barook]

SCG continues its trend of misnaming decks "Maverick"
To be fair, it can technically qualify as Blue Maverick.

[KobeBryan]

After seeing reid duke play bant today, its quite clear that the knights should be changed to TNN, then play the stoneforge package.

I think this serves the best options for creature base. As for whether you wanna play gsz or fow package, that would be up to you.

[Tormod]

After seeing reid duke play bant today, its quite clear that the knights should be changed to TNN, then play the stoneforge package.

I think this serves the best options for creature base. As for whether you wanna play gsz or fow package, that would be up to you.

makes sense!

Since you're watching the broadcast, couldn't Friedman just attacked with his geist when Reid was at 4 and then plow his own Geist before blocks or combat damage and just allow the angel to finish him off?

He would still have the bolt, in case Reid used the canopy

[KobeBryan]

makes sense!

Since you're watching the broadcast, couldn't Friedman just attacked with his geist when Reid was at 4 and then plow his own Geist before blocks or combat damage and just allow the angel to finish him off?

He would still have the bolt, in case Reid used the canopy

Thats what he did.

[Humphrey]

Reid Duke destroys target source thread. Cant be regenerated.

[Tormod]

Thats what he did.

Thanks goodness! There seemed to be some confusion in the commentary in terms of what Ben was targeting.

certainly this performance will motivate some players to play Bant.

[Kich867]

After seeing reid duke play bant today, its quite clear that the knights should be changed to TNN, then play the stoneforge package.

I think this serves the best options for creature base. As for whether you wanna play gsz or fow package, that would be up to you.

Sorry, TNN? Can't nuke out the abbreviation right now haha.

[Megadeus]

Reid Duke destroys target source thread. Cant be regenerated.

LOL. I was thinking to myself, I feel like he read this and took it as a personal challenge...

Good stuff by Reid Duke. I guess if Sneak and show is a think right now, then getting to play all of the awesome Maverick cards while getting Force is great right now. I only saw Jace once from Reid Duke. Is it even really needed?

[Megadeus]

Sorry, TNN? Can't nuke out the abbreviation right now haha.

True name Nemesis. Protection from target player guy

[Tormod]

To be fair, it can technically qualify as Blue Maverick.

You could, but you might get made fun of :tongue:

On that note, SCG corrected the name from Maverick to Bant.

[KobeBryan]

LOL. I was thinking to myself, I feel like he read this and took it as a personal challenge...

Good stuff by Reid Duke. I guess if Sneak and show is a think right now, then getting to play all of the awesome Maverick cards while getting Force is great right now. I only saw Jace once from Reid Duke. Is it even really needed?

Well. This deck isn't Dead-dead. it just that it doesnt' have superior matchups in anything, and every matchup ends up as a grinder as you saw Reid Duke do each match.

Someone without patience and without energy would scoop half the time, but he played on.

[ironclad8690]

Well. This deck isn't Dead-dead. it just that it doesnt' have superior matchups in anything, and every matchup ends up as a grinder as you saw Reid Duke do each match.

Someone without patience and without energy would scoop half the time, but he played on.

Many people have theorized that bant can't be good because it tries to be good at everything. This is the same argument that was used against midrange decks in general, and I believe it is false. Reid Duke winning with bant just affirms that belief, and motivates me in that with good plays you can really win with almost anything; regardless of popularity of the choice.

[Megadeus]

I just don't know if Jace needs to be here... Honestly like Maverick splashing for counters/Brainstorm/Ponder/Meddling Mage seems like a better option than Trying to be Stoneblade and Maverick smashed

[dontbiteitholmes]

Can we stop calling True-Name Nemesis TNN, everytime I see that I'm like, "What the fuck does Tooth n' Nail have to do with this?"

[ivanpei]

True name nemesis wouldnt replace knight. Knight is just so powerful. He raced a griselbrand with an 8/8 knight ftw against reanimator. Knight fetching up wastelands also seals up alot of games. I like his list, no force so it's not really bant. It's more like maverick splash jace and brainstorm.

Knight into Karakas also shits on Reanimator and Sneak Show. I think since sneak and show was everywhere this weekend, a knight deck was the correct meta call especially with post board Forces. Smart meta choice and top props to Reid Duke.

[ESG]

It's up now, listed as Maverick.

So up next we should be seeing Miracles labeled as Maverick, since people who label decks seem to be familiar with Maverick but not anything else ...

Edit: Ivanpei, look at the sideboard and you will see the Force of Wills. It's Bant; he's just playing the Forces in the board.

[lordofthepit]

Legacy has gotten to the point where if you're not playing combo or tribal synergies, you can reasonably expect to throw any number of good spells in a 3- or 4-color midrange or tempo shell and expect to do well with tight play. It doesn't matter if anyone's tried it before (not that I'm surprised that Bant did well).

[Julian23]

So up next we should be seeing Miracles labeled as Maverick, since people who label decks seem to be familiar with Maverick but not anything else ...

It's funny because I remember 2 years ago, SCG editors refused to acknowledge GW Maverick and instead kept listing it as GW Stoneblade.

[testing32]

I thought Reid Duke's tweet after the event was pretty funny.

"Won the Legacy Open with the deck my friends affectionately nicknamed "Feces Bant" @OwenTweetenwald @jravitz @HueyJensen"

I'm pretty sure he could win a legacy open with a ham sandwich.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm pretty sure he could win a legacy open with a ham sandwich.

What colors would that be? White and red? Maybe a splash of green?

[Tormod]

Legacy has gotten to the point where if you're not playing combo or tribal synergies, you can reasonably expect to throw any number of good spells in a 3- or 4-color midrange or tempo shell and expect to do well with tight play. It doesn't matter if anyone's tried it before (not that I'm surprised that Bant did well).

Very much agree and reinforces that the Legacy meta is pretty wide open. There so many robust and powerful cards available in Legacy. Many strategies are available and they never go away and we get lulled into thinking the game is more defined than it is. We make up theories of why a card is no good anymore, then we eat our hats when see a deck list that won built of cards that have been dismissed as obsolete.

i guess DRS didn't kill knight or replace noble afterall.

[phonics]

It's funny because I remember 2 years ago, SCG editors refused to acknowledge GW Maverick and instead kept listing it as GW Stoneblade.

Well to be fair they did call it bant in coverage, someone probably just misnamed it when they were putting up lists.

[Megadeus]

Noble is still a viable card. The exalted trigger is very important in creature match ups making it incredibly difficult for your opponents to block profitably

[Esper3k]

True name nemesis wouldnt replace knight. Knight is just so powerful. He raced a griselbrand with an 8/8 knight ftw against reanimator. Knight fetching up wastelands also seals up alot of games. I like his list, no force so it's not really bant. It's more like maverick splash jace and brainstorm.

Knight into Karakas also shits on Reanimator and Sneak Show. I think since sneak and show was everywhere this weekend, a knight deck was the correct meta call especially with post board Forces. Smart meta choice and top props to Reid Duke.

^^^ This.

On top of all that, in one of the on camera feature matches against UW Stoneblade, I watched Duke go nuts with KotR just generating extra mana every turn fetching up Horizon Canopy and using that extra mana to leverage the extra cards from Jace + Equipment. All while under a RIP...

[gregtron]

^^^ This.

On top of all that, in one of the on camera feature matches against UW Stoneblade, I watched Duke go nuts with KotR just generating extra mana every turn fetching up Horizon Canopy and using that extra mana to leverage the extra cards from Jace + Equipment. All while under a RIP...

He also used Knight to hard-cast a Force of Will on Chranderson's Glimpse. Everyone seemed to be expecting a search for Wasteland to kill the Cradle, but nope, getcha. It's like everyone forgot Knight could do all this cool shit except for Reid, the IRL Knight of the Reliquary.

[thecrav]

Legacy has gotten to the point where if you're not playing combo or tribal synergies, you can reasonably expect to throw any number of good spells in a 3- or 4-color midrange or tempo shell and expect to do well with tight play. It doesn't matter if anyone's tried it before (not that I'm surprised that Bant did well).

This was called the "good stuff" problem like a year ago

[KobeBryan]

Its funny how so many people are now coming up with lists after duke won.

new proposed lists on the source and salvation. Then several bant matchups on cockatrice already.

[Barook]

What's pretty interesting about Reid Duke's build is how it maximizes its card sifting with non-shitty cards.

Not only does the deck play 4 Brainstorms, 3 JMS and a miser Sylvan Library, but also 21 (!) shuffle effects, of which 12 happen to be tutors in form of KotR, SFM and GSZ.

When you think about all that card selection, then it's actally impressive, especially in the hands of a good player like Duke.

[DragoFireheart]

I saw the deck list and I don't like it.

1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
Lands [23]

SIDEBOARD
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell
1 Envelop
4 Force of Will
1 Humility
1 Life from the Loam
2 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Vendilion Clique


Daze as your only disruption option? I guess this can work in a storm combo-less meta. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems like this would roll to any combo-deck that doesn't rely on Legendary creatures.

I also wish there was a way to fit in Shardless Agent, but with the current card selection he wouldn't work in here.

[Julian23]

The main reason, you don't want Shardless Agent in this deck:

3 Daze
4 Green Sun's Zenith

[twndomn]

The lesson I've learned from watching the coverage: If your name is Reid Duke, you can make anything works and it looks easy.

You don't need Shardless Agent, you play GSZ, Daze, and Jace Main; FoW SB, you win championship. Unfortunately, I'm not Reid Duke.

[Barook]

Daze as your only disruption option? I guess this can work in a storm combo-less meta. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems like this would roll to any combo-deck that doesn't rely on Legendary creatures.

I also wish there was a way to fit in Shardless Agent, but with the current card selection he wouldn't work in here.
Duke even said this list is tuned with tons of Sneak & Show in mind.

I think that his approach is currently the overall best one to Bant, though - playing tons of quality shufflers with Brainstorm effect. BS + shuffling is one of the strongest two-card combo in Legacy, aside from stuff like "S&T + R&D's latest mistake" and "Infernal Tutor + LED".

Due to having lots of options available to you, being a good player is probably a requirement for the deck. You can't just auto-pilot the deck to victory like S&T decks or Delver decks starting with double Delver + free counter back-up on the play.

[nedleeds]

Legacy has gotten to the point where if you're not playing combo or tribal synergies, you can reasonably expect to throw any number of good spells in a 3- or 4-color midrange or tempo shell and expect to do well with tight play. It doesn't matter if anyone's tried it before (not that I'm surprised that Bant did well).

LotP is absolutely right on. Legacy has almost always been like this, any 3 color deck with proper mana and the most powerful spells can win. The card pool is powerful enough in every color. then you have winning the die roll, your matchup's and play skill (in a SCG no less which are rife with jobbers on the legacy side). There are also better color fixers now than ever before.

My only complaint is why we use the plane names like Jund and Bant and not the old dragon names like Treva and Darigaaz. They were there first. Actually fuck it ... use Legends dragons names.

Arcades Aggro. ProSabboth.

[Koby]

LotP is absolutely right on. Legacy has almost always been like this, any 3 color deck with proper mana and the most powerful spells can win. The card pool is powerful enough in every color. then you have winning the die roll, your matchup's and play skill (in a SCG no less which are rife with jobbers on the legacy side). There are also better color fixers now than ever before.

My only complaint is why we use the plane names like Jund and Bant and not the old dragon names like Treva and Darigaaz. They were there first. Actually fuck it ... use Legends dragons names.

Arcades Aggro. ProSabboth.

Better watch yo'self before I go all Gwendlyn Di Corci on your ass.

wait a minute...

[nedleeds]

Gwendylyn is a beating right now. An Abrupt Decay / Bolt proof roadwhore that mini-Hymns. Pitches to Force. Cavern naming human.

[Barook]

My only complaint is why we use the plane names like Jund and Bant and not the old dragon names like Treva and Darigaaz. They were there first. Actually fuck it ... use Legends dragons names.

Arcades Aggro. ProSabboth.
People like catchy names for color combinations ever since the original Ravnica guild names, but not all catch on.

I'd consider Bant, Esper, Jund and Grixis to an extend a success. Fuck Naya.

I'm still expecting them to give the enemy 3-color combinations new names down the road. Or do you know what color combinations Ana, Ceta, Dega, Necra and Raka are without looking them up?


Gwendylyn is a beating right now. An Abrupt Decay / Bolt proof roadwhore that mini-Hymns. Pitches to Force. Cavern naming human.
If Gwendlyn Di Corci enters the meta, would we see an increase in Rug Delvers?

[nedleeds]

DEGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 4EVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

http://magiccards.info/scans/de/ap/6.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/de/ap/6.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/de/ap/6.jpg

[Richard Cheese]

LotP is absolutely right on. Legacy has almost always been like this, any 3 color deck with proper mana and the most powerful spells can win. The card pool is powerful enough in every color. then you have winning the die roll, your matchup's and play skill (in a SCG no less which are rife with jobbers on the legacy side). There are also better color fixers now than ever before.

My only complaint is why we use the plane names like Jund and Bant and not the old dragon names like Treva and Darigaaz. They were there first. Actually fuck it ... use Legends dragons names.

Arcades Aggro. ProSabboth.

Can we use any Legend?

Dakkon Stoneblade?
Punishing Oakenshield?

Actually it's probably obvious that I support abstract deck names based on random mental associations. Mmmm...onion burst.

[nedleeds]

/thread derailed


4 Anavolver
4 Degavolver
4 Rakavolver
4 Necravolver
1 Bringer of the Black Dawn
1 Bringer of the Green Dawn
1 Bringer of the Red Dawn
1 Bringer of the White Dawn
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
4 Contagion Clasp
3 Steely Resolve
4 Beast Within
3 Cover of Darkness

[mini1337s]

Arcades Aggro. ProSabboth.
I'm playing "NO Sabboth"

[nedleeds]

Can we use any Legend?

Dakkon Stoneblade?
Punishing Oakenshield?

Actually it's probably obvious that I support abstract deck names based on random mental associations. Mmmm...onion burst.

Punishing Runeaxe
Swamp King Tempo
and the best BIG STANGG!

[DragoFireheart]

This topic needs more Spiritmonger.

- Bolt proof.
- Decay proof.
- Doesn't care about Mother of Runes
- Doesn't give a shit about Tarmogoyf.

[Lord Seth]

I'm still expecting them to give the enemy 3-color combinations new names down the road. Or do you know what color combinations Ana, Ceta, Dega, Necra and Raka are without looking them up?
The only one we really need a name for is Dega. For the rest, we already have commonly used names: BUG (Ana), RUG (Ceta), Junk (Necra), and American (Raka).

[Humphrey]

Man I hate those fantasy names for colorcombinatios. Its shorter and more understandable if you just use the colors. GW >>> Selesnya

At least they should have used the letters in the name. Like they did with GRuul


666 posts http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwfPy5rZ6xfcNj3iZOEip64mZDngpq_nlsxL27fmRyUWuWBY50hzttJhQ

[Barook]

The only one we really need a name for is Dega. For the rest, we already have commonly used names: BUG (Ana), RUG (Ceta), Junk (Necra), and American (Raka).
I kinda dislike the use of nation names, since quite often, it's rather counter-intuitive. E.g., Team America being BUG instead of WUR and Team Italia being WBR instead of WGR.

But to come back to the actual discussion - let's have a look at the color combinations (in fair decks, not combo decks) and how they perform:

Esper: viable (Esperblade)
Grixis: somewhat viable (Delver)
Jund: very viable (Jund...)
Naya: unviable (lol Zoo)
Bant: unviable (?) (lol Reid Duke)

BWR: somewhat viable (?) (Team Italia)
WUR: viable (Delver)
BUG: very viable (Shardless)
RUG: very viable (Delver)
WGB: somewhat viable (Dark Maverick)

WU: viable (Miracles, Stoneblade variants)
UB: somewhat viable (Tezzeret Staxx)
BR: unviable
RG: unviable
GW: somewhat viable (Maverick)

WB: unviable
GB: somewhat viable (Nic Fit (with splashes), The Rock)
RW: unviable
UR: viable (Delver)
UG: somewhat viable (?) (depends on whether or not you view Turbo Eldrazi as a "fair" deck)

W: viable (D&T)
U: somewhat viable (Merfolk)
B: rather unviable (Pox)
R: viable (Burn, Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Imperial Painter)
G: viable (Elves)

The exact numbers can be debated, but Zoo, Rakdos and Boros probably blow the hardest out of the color combinations.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Man I hate those fantasy names for colorcombinatios. Its shorter and more understandable if you just use the colors. GW >>> Selesnya


+1

[Benjammn]

Man I hate those fantasy names for colorcombinatios. Its shorter and more understandable if you just use the colors. GW >>> Selesnya

At least they should have used the letters in the name. Like they did with GRuul


666 posts http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwfPy5rZ6xfcNj3iZOEip64mZDngpq_nlsxL27fmRyUWuWBY50hzttJhQ

Well, there is a disconnect between writing/typing and speaking. The more popular "fantasy" names are usually one syllable whereas the colors would be three syllables, so it is easier to say "Bant" than "Blue White Green" or "You Double-u Gee"; however, when we write color combos, the three colors letters "UWG" are easier to type/write than any other name.

[PirateKing]

You just need to rearrange and put the vowel in the middle. No problem saying RUG and BUG. WUG might not be the sexiest title for a deck, but is pronounceable.

[SpikeyMikey]

Duke even said this list is tuned with tons of Sneak & Show in mind.

I think that his approach is currently the overall best one to Bant, though - playing tons of quality shufflers with Brainstorm effect. BS + shuffling is one of the strongest two-card combo in Legacy, aside from stuff like "S&T + R&D's latest mistake" and "Infernal Tutor + LED".

Due to having lots of options available to you, being a good player is probably a requirement for the deck. You can't just auto-pilot the deck to victory like S&T decks or Delver decks starting with double Delver + free counter back-up on the play.

Reid's deck was tuned the way Nassif's sideboard was tuned in Chicago a few years back. Deck is a pile, Duke just wins.

[Barook]

Reid's deck was tuned the way Nassif's sideboard was tuned in Chicago a few years back. Deck is a pile, Duke just wins.
The SB is a pile, but what's wrong with the MD? The only bad things I can spot is the filler Ponder and the 3 Daze as MD disruption suit.

Other than that, the list looks rock-solid since it can abuse BS + shuffle effects to the max.

[SpikeyMikey]

Compare it to Jund or BUG. You have less incremental advantage, you don't match up well against DRS, you have less disruption (and worse disruption, as discard is better than taxing counters right now; especially with a deck that doesn't have a fast clock or mana disruption) and you don't have any explosive plays. Basically, you're just worse than any other midrange deck.