Commander 2013 discussion

[Barook]

Spoiler (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/commander-2013-spoiler.html)

Lots of overcosted jank or Commander-specific cards so far.

This might see play as a sideboard card in Elves, though:

Bane of Progress :4::g::g:
Creature — Elemental
When Bane of Progress enters the battlefied, destroy all artifacts and enchantments. Put a +1/+1 counter on Bane of Progress for each permanent destroyed this way.
2/2

[lordofthepit]

Spoiler (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/commander-2013-spoiler.html)

Lots of overcosted jank or Commander-specific cards so far.

This might see play as a sideboard card in Elves, though:

Bane of Progress :4::g::g:
Creature — Elemental
When Bane of Progress enters the battlefied, destroy all artifacts and enchantments. Put a +1/+1 counter on Bane of Progress for each permanent destroyed this way.
2/2

This is a pretty amazing card for Elves.

It won't turn the Miracles matchup in their favor, but it will at least get rid of a bunch of annoying enchantments and artifacts (mainly Counterbalance, but Rest in Peace, Energy Field, Moat, Blood Moon, Cursed Totem, and Ethersworn Canonist can be relevant as well, plus forcing your opponent to flip their Tops is nice).

It's a one-card bomb that can turn bad board positions against unfavorable matchups like Tezzerator, MUD, and various Dragon Stompy decks completely around. And it sure isn't shabby against Enchantress or Affinity, although both of those are solid matchups to begin with. I'm definitely picking up at least a copy.

[Gheizen64]

I dislike that's so bomby though. 6 mana autowin against some decks, basically no downside aside from cmc. At least artifact and enchantment already had some absurd sideboard card against, so it doesn't feel as shitty. Natural order target pew pew.

[Finn]

I dislike that's so bomby though. 6 mana autowin against some decks, basically no downside aside from cmc. At least artifact and enchantment already had some absurd sideboard card against, so it doesn't feel as shitty. Natural order target pew pew.

How many enchantments and artifacts are ever on the battlefield at once though. I mean, if you nab three , I would imagine that would be exceptionally high. A 5/5 that you just shot your load for sure feels meh to me.

[TsumiBand]

It's only 10 cards in but I still feel like the most interesting card spoiled - for EDH of course - is Oloro. It isn't just begging to be played with infinite mana/infinite recursion like the other new commanders, and it has some of that "one card engine" damage going on. It kind of makes me want to rethink my Ghost Council of Orzhova deck and replace the commander.

Inasmuch as Legacy goes, if Moat is so bad for Elves that they need more ways to blow it up than drawing their deck and using Viridian Zealot or any number of the creatures with "when this ETB destroy target artifact/enchant/noncreature permanent/" type spells, then I guess that'd be the one to turn to. It seems like more often than not you'd rather just play a wincon instead of a 2/2 that might get big though. vOv

[crow_mw]

Marath, Will of the Wild seems to have a decent potential. While 3/3 for 3 isn't too hot for Naya Zoo, being able to sweep board or shoot at enemy Planewalkers seems quite decent. Due to Naya color combination there is no shell, that would use her straight on, but she seems solid nevertheless.

[Barook]

Marath, Will of the Wild seems to have a decent potential. While 3/3 for 3 isn't too hot for Naya Zoo, being able to sweep board or shoot at enemy Planewalkers seems quite decent. Due to Naya color combination there is no shell, that would use her straight on, but she seems solid nevertheless.
It has potential to shoot down various X/1 critters and it's a combo with Karakas, but how is that more efficient than just running Punishing Fire? It's a card designed around abusing the Commander tax, so I don't see much benefit for Legacy.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Does Nekusar, the Mindrazer provide a Show-able answer to Mono-U OmniTell?

"Whenever an opponent draws a card, Nekusar, the Mindrazer deals 1 damage to that player."

[evanmartyr]

I really wish they hadn't shot their "Marath mechanic" load on a three color creature. An artifact that does that would be SWEET, especially if the cost was still at three. Would certainly have become a staple in Legacy MUD, maybe even vintage.

[Gheizen64]

Does Nekusar, the Mindrazer provide a Show-able answer to Mono-U OmniTell?

"Whenever an opponent draws a card, Nekusar, the Mindrazer deals 1 damage to that player."

Underworld dreams already exist. This is a 2/4 at 5 mana 3 color, not exactly what i'd call playable. Red need a similar effect, but for much cheaper.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Underworld Dreams
Yeah, you are right. Forgot that card exists.

You caught me reaching because I want this product to have some cards relevant to Legacy...

[Gheizen64]

Yeah, you are right. Forgot that card exists.

You caught me reaching because I want this product to have some cards relevant to Legacy...

Not really reaching, the effect is potentially really good, problem has always been its cost. If this costed 3 instead of 5, i could see it being playable in Grixis, but as 5 it's way too costly. Underworld dream is also pretty bad because it does nothing aside from pinging /bolting people who brainstorm. If it had a body attached, it would be another matter entirely.

[Valtrix]

You caught me reaching because I want this product to have some cards relevant to Legacy...

Why are you reaching? There are 10/51 cards spoiled, basically all commander things. The first commander saw scavenging ooze and flusterstorm--two cards which probably had more impact on legacy than most new sets that get spoiled it seems. Commander's arsenal also reprinted Loyal Retainers, back when it was seeing some play (but usually not much due to availability).

[alderon666]

Spoiler (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/commander-2013-spoiler.html)

Lots of overcosted jank or Commander-specific cards so far.

This might see play as a sideboard card in Elves, though:

Bane of Progress :4::g::g:
Creature — Elemental
When Bane of Progress enters the battlefied, destroy all artifacts and enchantments. Put a +1/+1 counter on Bane of Progress for each permanent destroyed this way.
2/2

At the worst this is Affinity hate that you can get with GSZ. They just don't get tired of printing those.

[Darkenslight]

Why are you reaching? There are 10/51 cards spoiled, basically all commander things. The first commander saw scavenging ooze and flusterstorm--two cards which probably had more impact on legacy than most new sets that get spoiled it seems. Commander's arsenal also reprinted Loyal Retainers, back when it was seeing some play (but usually not much due to availability).

Hell, the Ooze is a Tier-1 card in almost all formats where it's played. That card is always useful as anti-DRS tech as well as being around as fat as a Goyf in Standard.

[Stan]

Hell, the Ooze is a Tier-1 card in almost all formats where it's played.

The same can be said of Sphinx's Revelation and Boros Reckoner, and nobody who ever plays real magic will be caught dead playing that crap.

[Koby]

Another card got spoiled last nite, with little relevance to Legacy:

Primal Vigor
Enchantment
4G
If one or more tokens would enter the battlefield, double it.
If one or more +1/+1 counters would be placed, double it.

aka Doubling Season that is fixed to not double Planeswalker starting loyalty.

Yawn.

[Darkenslight]

Another card got spoiled last nite, with little relevance to Legacy:

Primal Vigor
Enchantment
4G
If one or more tokens would enter the battlefield, double it.
If one or more +1/+1 counters would be placed, double it.

aka Doubling Season that is fixed to not double Planeswalker starting loyalty.

Yawn.

You missed OStone interaction #94762:

Eye of Doom :4:
Artifact
When ~ ETB, each player chooses a nonland permanent and puts a fate counter on it.
:2:, :symtap:, sac: destroy all permanents with fate counters on them.

[Star|Scream]

I wonder if they'll give us a bomb that turns the format on its head right before the GP?

[TsumiBand]

You missed OStone interaction #94762:

Eye of Doom :4:
Artifact
When ~ ETB, each player chooses a nonland permanent and puts a fate counter on it.
:2:, :symtap:, sac: destroy all permanents with fate counters on them.

Weird, that there should be no cards for ten years that create fate counters outside of Oblivion Stone, and to suddenly get two that are Legacy legal.

It isn't creating any new decks, but it is a quirky interaction between O-Stone, Triad of Fates, and this Eye of Doom. Fate counters can be used to protect permanents from O-stone, destroy them with Eye of Doom, Flicker a creature and/or exile a creature + its controller draws 2 cards with Triad of Fates.

Probably too expensive to matter in the long term, though it bears noting that for the player casting it, clearly the best target for a fate counter will typically be itself. That feels like an oversight since you have to sacrifice it anyway, but w/e.

[Tylert]

First interresting card:

nemesis of identity 1UU
Merfolk rogue
When ~~ enters the battlefield, choose a player.
~~ has protection from chosen player (It can't be blocked, targeted, damaged, enchanted by a source controlled by this player)
3/1.

Mini merfolk progenitus? :)

[Kayradis]

This is a good one. Merfolks might be back in the DTB!
\
Edit.

Wait. Link?

[Tylert]

This is a good one. Merfolks might be back in the DTB!
\
Edit.

Wait. Link?

You can find it on smfcorp.net
or search for "la secte des magiciens fous" in google.

[Wilkin]

Wow, pretty insane creature. Essentially a 3/1 Progenitus for 3 mana. Although it doesn't say hexproof, it pretty much is and that's a bit annoying.

Wonder which Merfolk gets the axe and is replaced by this new guy.

[Raystar]

I don't think you need a merfolk shell for it....it is a threat by itself, you cast it and just wait for the end of the game with a bunch of counters/stp/whatever in your hands....

[Tylert]

It costs Three and doesn't add to your power as an additionnal lord would do. so no idea what it could replace.
I don't think it will be played as a 4 of, but it's a very interresting card indeed :)

WIll it be only legacy / vintage legal? or could it be played in Modern also?
can't remember if the rules said that the cards from commander packs were legal for Eternal formats or non-rotating formats or legacy/vintage only...

EDIT: yes, my thirst thought was that it's a cheap threat your opponent can nearly do nothing about... it's more tempo oriented (well 3 mana is a bit high)... then i saw it was a merfolk so It became more and more interresting :)

[Raystar]

It costs Three and doesn't add to your power as an additionnal lord would do. so no idea what it could replace.
I don't think it will be played as a 4 of, but it's a very interresting card indeed :)

WIll it be only legacy / vintage legal? or could it be played in Modern also?
can't remember if the rules said that the cards from commander packs were legal for Eternal formats or non-rotating formats or legacy/vintage only...

EDIT: yes, my thirst thought was that it's a cheap threat your opponent can nearly do nothing about... it's more tempo oriented (well 3 mana is a bit high)... then i saw it was a merfolk so It became more and more interresting :)

Yes, a great card indeed :)

EDIT: the more I look at it, the more I think that it will make stone blade virtually unbeatable...

[Barook]

That's one hell of an amazing creature. It's basically an Etched Champion on roids and AWESOME. And unlike Progenitus, it can carry equipment.

It also goes straight for the throat as far as PW are concerned.

That's probably the first playable Legacy card in that pile of unplayable, overcosted multiplayer junk spoiled so far. I can already see the complaints about how annoying it is in a few months.

[Lemnear]

That's a serious contender for Geist of Saint Trafts spot in decks paired with SFM and equip

[Sloshthedark]

And the card is dumb, pro player LoL, probably playable yet example of poor design

[Barook]

And the card is dumb, pro player LoL, probably playable yet example of poor design
It certainly is a bad design, given how uninteractive it is.

And why is it blue? Protection is mainly white's domain, not blue's. :rolleyes:

[SirTylerGalt]

I wonder if they'll give us a bomb that turns the format on its head right before the GP?

I wonder if I can play cards from this set at the BoM Paris... It's released on November, 1, the day the BoM starts...

[Barsoom]

Well it's not really uninteractive, you can respond to the trigger and kill it, otherwise yes it was overpowered maybe.

EDIT: we should know if the translation is "As Identity Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player." or "When nemesis of identity enters the battlefield, choose a player."

[Koby]

Well it's not really uninteractive, you can respond to the trigger and kill it, otherwise yes it was overpowered maybe.

The translation is likely goofed. Cards with a similar effect would read "As ~ enters the battlefield..."

[Namida]

Well it's not really uninteractive, you can respond to the trigger and kill it, otherwise yes it was overpowered maybe.

I don't think so. I checked some other French cards to make sure--the wording is consistent with cards like Iona, Shield of Emeria. There's no trigger for you to respond to so by the time the card actually enters play it already has protection: you.

[Barsoom]

Wonderful, i own a merfolk deck and now this card can push the deck to tier1, i hope.

[rufus]

It certainly is a bad design, given how uninteractive it is.
And why is it blue? Protection is mainly white's domain, not blue's. :rolleyes:

Because awesome! (Shroud is traditionally blue.)
Yay. One more hexproof evasive rogue to go with Invisible Stalker and Silhana Ledgewalker. Now, if only prowl cards weren't so terrible. Still, pile on the auras and equipment, and go to town.

[Einherjer]

It still dies to Terminus! :O

Greetings

[Hof]

I wonder if I can play cards from this set at the BoM Paris... It's released on November, 1, the day the BoM starts...
I guess it will be legal. Card become legal on (not after) the release date, which in this case is November 1.
The question is how to acquire these before the event? Not exactly an ideal scenario for players or organisers IMO.

[Gheizen64]

This card is pretty absurd. It's an unkillable wall or an hexproof, unblockable threat. The 1 toughness is never relevant actually. Stoneblade equip this and it's pretty much game over.

[mojoiskewl]

that thing is supposed to be legendary right?

right guys?

guys?

[Jeet]

This card is pretty absurd. It's an unkillable wall or an hexproof, unblockable threat. The 1 toughness is never relevant actually. Stoneblade equip this and it's pretty much game over.

It dies to Infest or Engineered Plague since it has 1 toughness.

[JanoschEausH]

I don't like this card. Not. One. Bit.

[Valtrix]

Not really sure how the merfolk will do. I originally thought that it just was from spells by the player, but I see that it gets around everything in the combat step now after reading the flavor text. Such a hard to deal with creature certainly has potential, if only for the fact that he can be an almost impossible wall to break, or he can just run through enemy defenses to win the game.

[MrGlantz]

I don't really think it's as powerful as everybody thinks. Sure it's useful, but it's only protecting itself from the player. This means a couple important things. It doesn't even have evasion, so a lowly deathrite shaman can trade in combat with it. A grim lavamancer can still burn it down. Secondly, while this 3/1 isn't targetable, why does your opponent actually want to kill this with their removal? Unless this guy is one of your only threats, chances are you're going to have another creature out to kill. This will be the case almost always for Merfolk (and they'd rather remove your lords anyway). Maybe less true if you have a very low number of creatures, but I certainly wouldn't want this to be my main threat as a 3/1 hexproof.

If the translation is correct, it cannot be blocked or damaged by anything that player controls either.

[wcm8]

Ugh so much fail on this card. This card is nowhere near broken but it sure is frustrating. They need to severely limit the number of creatures that don't allow for interaction.

However, it can still be dealt with by the control decks in the format: Liliana OTV can still force a sacrifice, black sweepers like Golgari Charm or Engineered Plague still affect it, Pernicious Deed would work, as do Terminus and Supreme Verdict.

It's definitely a strong option in the 3cmc slot for Stoneblade decks, however Geist and Clique are both much stronger options against combo (the first is a much faster clock, the second one provides disruption.) And obviously Snapcaster as a technical 3cmc has more potential versatility.

I think this is more likely to be seen in Merfolk given its sub-type.

[Tylert]

here is the text in french for those that want the exact text:

"Au moment où la némésis de l'identité arrive sur le camp de bataille, choisissez un Joueur. La némésis de l'identité a la protection contre le joueur choisi. (Cette Créature ne peut pas être bloquée, ciblée, blessée ou enchantée par une source controlée par ce joueur".

It has the same wording as phyrexian revoker, meaning that the ability doesn't triggers when the creature enters the battlefield.

The reminder text specifies that it can't be blocked, can't be damaged, can't be enchanted by a source controlled by the chosen player. Yes it's just nearly impossible to interact with that sucker :)

[TsumiBand]

It isn't a 3/1 because it will be played in a deck with several other Lords. It will probably almost never be just a 3/1.

How is there no Plains in the mana cost. Fucking dammit. Protection from a player?? That's the kind of hate-bear tech White has been aching for, literally for years. It took until whenever-the-hell for Thalia to become a thing. I don't understand this level of modal protection to be Blue, at all.

Ohshi that's right I forgot Blue in Eternal 'does everything' hurp. I don't mean that, but I totally do.

I don't know if the card actually changes the game, it's just frustrating as a motherfuck to see this creature in the wrong color. Nemesis Identity say "Ohai Snapcaster/Delver, I heard u like off-color effects".

I'm not anti-utility creatures in Blue, they just have to actually act like fucking Blue cards. This is just shitty oversight.

[Sasan]

The card is bonkers. I mean board sweepers always affect all creatures so naming Terminus or Supreme Verdict as a blowout for a creature card is not a big news. The card is one of the best shroud/hexproof type creatures ever printed. It is unblockable, can chump block a batterskull, Goyf etc for years. The only real vulnerability is Golgari Charm/Plague/Infest. They are all limited to black decks so yeah: This card will shake up the format like Delver did. Mark my words ;-)

[wcm8]

Do we know which deck(s) this card is going to be included in? Preorder 4.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't like this card. Not. One. Bit.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Everyone that was involved in designing Commander 2013 and everyone that thinks this card is sensible in blue should be shot in the face with guns and cannons.

[Piceli89]

I'd say Tempo, obviously Merfolk and even Stoneblade could play it.
Anyways, I think it was really poorly designed, as it will be a very strong piece in all aggro strategies that will make life way more difficult for control decks as they usually stabilize below 10 lives before taking over the game, whereas now they will struggle as this thingie gets in for the last 6-9 damages and they fail to find a mass removal (after all, even Miracle can't play 6 between Terminus and Supreme Verdict, and this also survives to Pyroclasm).

It's a pain in the ass for Threshold if it doesn't come into play via the stack (or maybe off a Cavern) and even for Punishing Fire decks. It could even revive a sort of Bant aggro deck with Stoneforge and equips, becoming the new Geist-with-less-variance. This t2 off Hierarch can put on a very good race, really.

Definitely bonkers across multiple formats (think of how much this can be exploited in, say, a new Modern/Standard brew of Bant Auras...)

[Lemnear]

Thx WotC for excluding creatures as a cardtype from every counterspell, forcing players towards more and more removal ... and then screwing everyone by tacking etb cardadvantage on every fucking creature or make them hexproof?!

[Koby]

I'm predicting Supreme Verdict, Terminus, and Wrath of God to be en vogue throughout the next year.

[spg]

Thx WotC for excluding creatures as a cardtype from every counterspell, forcing players towards more and more removal ... and then screwing everyone by tacking etb cardadvantage on every fucking creature or make them hexproof?!

I really dislike this card. It's not the type of card I like playing with or against. And if you're going to make it, why in the world would it be blue? It's really frustrating to me that this is the type of card they make when they have an opportunity to insert some cards into the eternal card pool.

[Sasan]

I'd say Tempo, obviously Merfolk and even Stoneblade could play it.
Anyways, I think it was really poorly designed, as it will be a very strong piece in all aggro strategies that will make life way more difficult for control decks as they usually stabilize below 10 lives before taking over the game, whereas now they will struggle as this thingie gets in for the last 6-9 damages and they fail to find a mass removal (after all, even Miracle can't play 6 between Terminus and Supreme Verdict, and this also survives to Pyroclasm).

It's a pain in the ass for Threshold if it doesn't come into play via the stack (or maybe off a Cavern) and even for Punishing Fire decks. It could even revive a sort of Bant aggro deck with Stoneforge and equips, becoming the new Geist-with-less-variance. This t2 off Hierarch can put on a very good race, really.

Definitely bonkers across multiple formats (think of how much this can be exploited in, say, a new Modern/Standard brew of Bant Auras...)

I agree that tempo decks can play the card except Canadian as their mana base cannot support many cc3 spells, certainly not as a 4off. I predict UR Delver and Grixis Delver becoming a thing. Imagine UR with Delver, Young Pyromancer and that card as the creature suite. Wow.

[Tylert]

Are commander cards legal in modern???

[maurobad2k4]

Definitely bonkers across multiple formats (think of how much this can be exploited in, say, a new Modern/Standard brew of Bant Auras...)

He is legal only in Legacy and Vintage.

Yeah, this guy is really bonkers and a really annoyance if it`s equipped. Of course it`s blue, because...why not... :rolleyes:

[LOurs]

in my opinion, the biggest fail ability ever printed
I bet that competitive players wont enjoy it, and casual players will hate it.
Nice move ...
However, I guess WotC was targeting solitaire enthusiasts as a valuable kind of player to recruit to play mtg. I guess.

[phonics]

Apparently wizards saw how fun and interactive bant hexproof was in modern and decided that they wanted more of it.

[TsumiBand]

Apparently wizards saw how fun and interactive bant hexproof was in modern and decided that they wanted more of it.

It isn't even hexproof though.

Hexproof creatures can be blocked by bigger dudes, or take damage from damage-based sweepers - Volcanic Fallout, Anger of the Gods, Starstorm, Pyroclasm, Earthquake, whatever other "bad cards" exist to do this.

Pretty much every answer to this 3/1 has to be non-targeted, non-damage. Edict effects. Wrath of God and Terminus and shit. Supreme Verdict. Damnation. Infest. Mutilate. AKA things that have classically been pretty assy in Legacy. Terminus and Verdict are showing up more often now but that's only okay.

I mean basically the problem is that the best answers to this creature are bad cards in Legacy. They are too slow or too easily played around. Hell, half the WG creatures in all the formats these days are indestructible themselves, so what the fuck is a control player supposed to do besides ramp to Terminus or Hallowed Burial or Merciless Eviction or some terribad sweeper and hope for the best. Play combo and "just win"? Against Merfolk?

It's just so bloody weird. Like, again, I don't think this *breaks* anything, it's just fucking weird. And very not Blue. This shoulda been like a 2/2 Knight for 1WW.

[Zllig]

This is such a strange card to print. I don't see how this is very fun for commander players other than "el oh el you pick the opponent so it's so political!!!~", and it's obviously too powerful to print in a standard set. So that leads me to believe that Wizards thinks that Legacy needs a new sweet non-interactive card that kills you in 6 turns, but why on earth would anyone want that?

[Koby]

This is such a strange card to print. I don't see how this is very fun for commander players other than "el oh el you pick the opponent so it's so political!!!~", and it's obviously too powerful to print in a standard set. So that leads me to believe that Wizards thinks that Legacy needs a new sweet non-interactive card that kills you in 6 turns, but why on earth would anyone want that?

"Well you see, it's only 2 turns slower than Geist of Saint Traft, which everyone loves and is totes adores"

[FieryBalrog]

Kitsune Riftwalker, Runed Halo, Mistmeadow Skulk, Baneslayer Angel, Seht's Tiger and friends. Clearly this is a blue card to the core. :laugh: Being Awesometm is just above petty color pie issues.

[Gheizen64]

I really hate this card is so stupid on so many levels. Uninteractive at best, and red decks can't even ever remove it. Fuck you wotc, and this is blue when it should've been white by the way, since when blue get strong protection critters? All the best creatures lately have been blue, this is just moronic.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm predicting Supreme Verdict, Terminus, and Wrath of God to be en vogue throughout the next year.

This. Except which decks are going to make use of them while still managing to stem the tide of blue tempo decks, which now have another great tool in their arsenal?

[FieryBalrog]

It dies to Infest or Engineered Plague since it has 1 toughness.

My ass it does. 16-lords.dec laughs at you.

[Tammit67]

What in the actual fuck, WOTC?

I can't tell if this is simply lazy design or I'm being pushed towards modern

[Norm]

That card is stupid, I want 4

[Sasan]

RUG Delver will now play nearly a full playset of REBs in their sideboards now. A good hard counter for that baddie.

[adrieng]

RUG Delver will now play nearly a full playset of REBs in their sideboards now. A good hard counter for that baddie.

Maybe it will be playing three of this card to just race, read who is the beatdown, cause RUG is most of the time the aggro deck, and this sheet kills planeswalker and players ; blocks kotr, and is not affected by graveyard hate, why not joining the cause ? Just little change on the manabase.

[FieryBalrog]

This guy is better than every white protection card ever printed. It's like printing the best counterspell ever in White thanks to stuff like Lapse of Certainty and Frontline Medic. I'm sure everyone would be thrilled about that. The most disgusting thing is, decks like D&T have been waiting for cards like this for years. You know, in the color where it makes sense.

I mean look at Paladin En-Vec, who is supposed to be "strong" for a white protection creature at 1WW. This guy is so far ahead of Paladin En-Vec he isn't in the same universe.

[Grand Superior]

That card is stupid, I want 4

That's my opinion on the matter.

I think this card is beyond stupid, but then I have the same opinion on Delver of Secrets and Deathrite Shaman. Stupid or not, it looks to be stupidly effective and I now need to preorder some of these. At least it'll be affordable while its in print thanks to it being part of a special release. I do hope it's the card that breathes some life back into Stoneblade variants because I miss that deck.

[lordofthepit]

Everyone that was involved in designing Commander 2013 and everyone that thinks this card is sensible in blue should be shot in the face with guns and cannons.

[Anusien]

It's actually not that good.

[Valtrix]

One of the best walls ever printed.

[Ellomdian]

I'm glad there is something to finally generate discussion... been a lackluster spoiler waiting for the 1-2 eternal gems.

Having said that - guys, it still costs 3 mana. You can compare it to Geist (which generally comes with a swinging 4/4), or Clique (which quietly Duress's your opponent at instant speed,) or even Delver (which has a discount and a drawback to make an evasive 3/1,) and it compares well on it's own merits, but it's still a 3CMC 3/1 Practically-Indestructible.

I for one am very, VERY happy they didn't try to 2/1 for 1U this thing... that would be terrifying.

[Tammit67]

It's actually not that good.

I'll agree with you, but the design is horrendous

[Barook]

What in the actual fuck, WOTC?

I can't tell if this is simply lazy design or I'm being pushed towards modern
Commander isn't Modern-legal, so they don't give a fuck.

I'm interested to see whether or not Maro answers my question how this ended up blue instead of white, given that protection is white's domain and blue is the color with the least protection creatures (yes, even red has one more, I counted).

Seriously, that thing is a major "Fuck you!" to the color pie, but I guess it's okay because it's blue. :rolleyes:

Edit: Or they want to make Mono-:u: Devotion a thing.


I'm glad there is something to finally generate discussion... been a lackluster spoiler waiting for the 1-2 eternal gems.

Having said that - guys, it still costs 3 mana. You can compare it to Geist (which generally comes with a swinging 4/4), or Clique (which quietly Duress's your opponent at instant speed,) or even Delver (which has a discount and a drawback to make an evasive 3/1,) and it compares well on it's own merits, but it's still a 3CMC 3/1 Practically-Indestructible.

I for one am very, VERY happy they didn't try to 2/1 for 1U this thing... that would be terrifying.
It isn't just about offense - this thing can also act like a superwall, kinda like Tarmogoyf, except better.

[lyracian]

I'm interested to see whether or not Maro answers my question how this ended up blue instead of white, given that protection is white's domain and blue is the color with the least protection creatures (yes, even red has one more, I counted).
The only reason I can think of why the best White Knight ever is not Blue is becuase it is part of a cycle (like the Curses) so every colour gets one of these...

[DLifshitz]

It's actually not that good.

It is, though. In many respects it's better than Geist, and Geist is pretty solid already. I am certain it will end up in control sideboards and probably in some in Merfolk and tempo mainboards. Team America could probably use it to replace Tombstalker. It's also an uninteractive, inelegant, color-pie-breaking design, and an obvious ploy to get Legacy players to buy 3-4 copies of EDH decks. I expect Maro will soon tweet some inane explanation of why it's blue.

[TsumiBand]

It's actually not that good.

I don't think the complaint is its playability, I think the complaint is "why in the living shit isn't this White"? I don't have to tell you that most Eternal players have a sore spot for the "Blue can everything because Blue" logical fallacy. When Green cards tutor better than Black cards, it's noted; when Blue cards do anything "non-Blue" better than other colors, it's noted but it just rubs a lot of people the wrong way, because even though WotC has more or less washed their hands of the past and aren't going to let "sins of the past" color their current thinking with Blue design, they still let the color do things that maybe it shouldn't because Blue is the color of hacking Magic: The Gathering to get it to do what it needs to do.



The only reason I can think of why the best White Knight ever is not Blue is becuase it is part of a cycle (like the Curses) so every colour gets one of these...
I am sort of hoping against hope that this is the case as well, because it's almost the only way that it even makes sense. Why else would Blue get such an efficient protection creature unless every color was getting an analog? Not that Black or Red is amazing with universal protection either; I mean the board state you create with a bunch of protection from opponent guys is just awkwardly non-interactive attacking, and I just don't quite think that they really want to take the game to that level of hurp durp just yet. I can't help but think though that if this exists in a cycle then the person who spoiled this is uber-trolling because surely they knew that a Blue hate-bear as a standalone would make people quibble.

[Koby]

I don't think the complaint is its playability, I think the complaint is "why in the living shit isn't this White"? I don't have to tell you that most Eternal players have a sore spot for the "Blue can everything because Blue" logical fallacy. When Green cards tutor better than Black cards, it's noted; when Blue cards do anything "non-Blue" better than other colors, it's noted but it just rubs a lot of people the wrong way, because even though WotC has more or less washed their hands of the past and aren't going to let "sins of the past" color their current thinking with Blue design, they still let the color do things that maybe it shouldn't because Blue is the color of hacking Magic: The Gathering to get it to do what it needs to do.

Basically this. When Blue does something non-Blue it's being Blue and hacking shit unfairly. When other colors do something outside their color-pie it's novel, because for the most part those colors are underpowered.

[GexxX]

The worst thing with this card is the lack of care. It doesn't care about the gamestate, the opponent or anything else. It doesn't even need to adapt like f.i. Morphling or Tarmogoyf. It doesn't require design like Delver (to some extend) or Nimble Mongoose. It doesn't even require a splash like Geist. I hope they just printed a giant middle finger on it, because thats what this creature feels like.

[GoblinZ]

what wotc really cares is using these fucking cards to fuck this game.

[Tombstalker]

Wow this thread degenerated quick! Its good but its not like its mental misstep. Besides SFM and fish hes a 3/3 for 3.

Now that said I am getting 4... just in case.

Edit- also I think it might have been more powerful in white.

[Sasan]

Wow this thread degenerated quick! Its good but its not like its mental misstep. Besides SFM and fish hes a 3/3 for 3.

Now that said I am getting 4... just in case.

Edit- also I think it might have been more powerful in white.

a 3/3 with landwalk for all colours, that can nearly not be destroyed and a 3/20 wall in one ... yeah very average card *sarcasm*

Come on even non-targetted removal does not work that good. How will Maverick, Jund, Goblins, DnT be ever able to remove that guy - ok the white creature decks can play wrath of god and harm theirselves and Jund can hope for Lilliana and a hopefully clear board besides that Merfolk. Otherwise: No chance for these decks to fight that creature. Especially in combination with Delver and on the play blue decks can out-clock the midrange decks easily now.

[Zombie]

Everyone that was involved in designing Commander 2013 and everyone that thinks this card is sensible at all should be shot in the face with guns and cannons.

FTFY, and agreed.

[nedleeds]

Awesome, and it doesn't target the player it's raping in the mouth.

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgMVgbNsC9QfAiSxCTPmBPg.jpghttp://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgMVgbNsC9QfAiSxCTPmBPg.jpghttp://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgMVgbNsC9QfAiSxCTPmBPg.jpghttp://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgMVgbNsC9QfAiSxCTPmBPg.jpghttp://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgMVgbNsC9QfAiSxCTPmBPg.jpghttp://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgMVgbNsC9QfAiSxCTPmBPg.jpg

[Tombstalker]

a 3/3 with landwalk for all colours, that can nearly not be destroyed and a 3/20 wall in one ... yeah very average card *sarcasm*
Lol no definitely not average. Its a great creature and very powerful, just saying. Not like emrakul cares or other combo or anything with evasion of similar or greater power when racing. I'll be trying to incorporate it somewhere but I mean for 1 mana more you get real progenitus and most people dont even play that.

Its also not uncounterable so when goyf is dodging daze this isnt.

[Dice_Box]

In a commander situation, its not that broken. After all its a one off and others can kill it. In legacy tho, its nuts. I mean Fish are going to go nuts pumping this thing and slaming it into people. Makes me glad I am only 50 buck off finishing Fish. Well I was, now this is going to add to the price.

[Sasan]

Lol no definitely not average. Its a great creature and very powerful, just saying. Not like emrakul cares or other combo or anything with evasion of similar or greater power when racing. I'll be trying to incorporate it somewhere but I mean for 1 mana more you get real progenitus and most people dont even play that.

Its also not uncounterable so when goyf is dodging daze this isnt.

Yes, this makes Daze a great card again. Daze lost some value in the Shaman meta but Daze will make a good comeback as well as the neglected REBs. But I really think that midrange creature decks will suffer a lot if a certain amount of tempo decks and control decks will play that guy. We can only hope that only Merfolk players sleeve this card into their decks.The format needs to stay healthy.

[Sasan]

The worst thing with this card is the lack of care. It doesn't care about the gamestate, the opponent or anything else. It doesn't even need to adapt like f.i. Morphling or Tarmogoyf. It doesn't require design like Delver (to some extend) or Nimble Mongoose. It doesn't even require a splash like Geist. I hope they just printed a giant middle finger on it, because thats what this creature feels like.

you are so right. We do not need to build decks around that card like we needed with Delver/Pyromancer/Stoneforge. As long as our mana curve and color we play affords it we can play that guy (if we are not combo players).

[Aggro_zombies]

This card is good, but I don't know that it's losing-our-shit good. Invisible Stalker has both of the two relevant parts of "protection from your opponent", costs one mana less, and has not been historically playable in the format. An extra mana for +2/+0 and a relevant creature type is fine and all, but this guy is basically vanilla besides that. For the same converted mana cost, you can get Clique (has a relevant triggered ability, evasion), Kira (protects your team, evasion), Geist (splits into two bodies in combat for extra damage), and that's just in blue. There's also Lingering Souls (four bodies reduces the impact of removal, all four have evasion), Knight (incredibly large, has a useful tutor ability) and a host of other creatures that are niche-playable.

I will say that it's amusing this card is in the Commander release because it's not really good in that format. It feels a lot like Flusterstorm: a real headscratcher within the context of its release, but an obvious plant for other formats.

[Valtrix]

This card is good, but I don't know that it's losing-our-shit good. Invisible Stalker has both of the two relevant parts of "protection from your opponent", costs one mana less, and has not been historically playable in the format. An extra mana for +2/+0 and a relevant creature type is fine and all, but this guy is basically vanilla besides that.

This is a terrible "comparison". The difference between 3 power and 1 is huge. That's a 6-7 turn clock compared to an 18+ one. Also, three power means you kill most things in the format. Secondly, hexproof is not even close to protection from your opponent. Did you read what that does? It means that they can't block with creatures they control, any source they have that would deal damage (creature damage, pyroclasm, etc.) doesn't hurt this guy either, on top of being untargetable. Huge, huge difference.

That said, I know this card will see some play, but it's difficult for me to say how much. It might be quite a bit, or it might not--It will probably take the format a little while to decide.

[Dice_Box]

Invisible Stalker does not have 3 power, the ability to block without taking damage, full immunity to burn sweepers and does not get buffed by a deck that's whole game plan is to do nothing but drop lords and break face.

Think about this, Merfolk just got a playable card that can hit ANYONE. Not just those with Islands.

[Zombie]

That also synergizes nicely with Phantasmal Image.

[Benjammn]

lol

All of this clamoring over "there needs to be eternal staples in Commander 2013" and I'm not surprised that one of them happens to be a little out-of-pie and too powerful. Scavenging Ooze wasn't a good experiment; that card is very nearly better than Tarmogoyf. I hated getting my first 2 for $30 a pop and then getting boned a year later when they printed them in M14. I'm convinced that us Legacy players didn't know what we wished for when we consider WOTC's track record on printing cards directly for eternal formats (looking at you, Mental Misstep). Please don't do shit like this anymore, WOTC. Just give us our 8 mana 7/7s.

It's nice that Merfolk gets a good bump, I guess. I'm trying to think if this card will get played in other decks...pairing this with SFM/Jitte seems pretty awesome and dumb at the same time. You guys thought Nimble Mongoose was bad.

[Gheizen64]

lol

All of this clamoring over "there needs to be eternal staples in Commander 2013" and I'm not surprised that one of them happens to be a little out-of-pie and too powerful. Scavenging Ooze wasn't a good experiment; that card is very nearly better than Tarmogoyf. I hated getting my first 2 for $30 a pop and then getting boned a year later when they printed them in M14. I'm convinced that us Legacy players didn't know what we wished for when we consider WOTC's track record on printing cards directly for eternal formats (looking at you, Mental Misstep). Please don't do shit like this anymore, WOTC. Just give us our 8 mana 7/7s.

It's nice that Merfolk gets a good bump, I guess. I'm trying to think if this card will get played in other decks...pairing this with SFM/Jitte seems pretty awesome and dumb at the same time. You guys thought Nimble Mongoose was bad.

Yeah you know, Staples that aren't uninteractive cards, but MAYBE new cards for red and black maybe? A new counterspell? A new LD spell efficient against non-basics? A new creature that need a bit of a buildaround?

What the fuck is this 3 mana emrakul. Cut of the same cloth, fuck you WotC and your shitty non-interactive designs.

This is a 3/1 creature that red can't remove with any of the card he has except apocalypse, what the hell. And we still didn't get a decent red aggressive creature in years. Have fun playing against this shit the next years and have to side infest and shit like that or play combo. Sigh.

[FieryBalrog]

Invisible Stalker does not have 3 power, the ability to block without taking damage, full immunity to burn sweepers and does not get buffed by a deck that's whole game plan is to do nothing but drop lords and break face.

Think about this, Merfolk just got a playable card that can hit ANYONE. Not just those with Islands.
The fact that it's not only Awesometm, but is also a Merfolk, should tell everyone that it was directly aimed at Legacy with all the subtlety of a pig carcass launched from a trebuchet. Given that the relation between the ability and being a fish-man is the most tenuous one imaginable.

[Barook]

That also synergizes nicely with Phantasmal Image.
Don't open Pandora's Box.

T3 this guy, then vialing in Phantasmal Image as a second copy? That sounds pretty annoying.


All of this clamoring over "there needs to be eternal staples in Commander 2013" and I'm not surprised that one of them happens to be a little out-of-pie and too powerful. Scavenging Ooze wasn't a good experiment; that card is very nearly better than Tarmogoyf. I hated getting my first 2 for $30 a pop and then getting boned a year later when they printed them in M14. I'm convinced that us Legacy players didn't know what we wished for when we consider WOTC's track record on printing cards directly for eternal formats (looking at you, Mental Misstep). Please don't do shit like this anymore, WOTC. Just give us our 8 mana 7/7s.
Wizards recent track record for eternal is pretty shitty in general. The last few sets have been total ass, and the stuff before hasn't been a good idea, either:

- Imho, AD is okay powerlevel-wise and opens a new angle of "being AD-proof". DRS, however, was way over the fucking curve to the point where it's the most played creature in the format now.
- Miracles as a mechanic is about as stupid as it can get. Also, Super-Wrath of God for :w:. Good riddance, aggro!
- Snapcaster Mage in the wrong color and 3/2 flyers for :u:.
- Mental Missstep

And their big, splashy, "expensive" cards can be a threat to the format as long as S&T is a thing - see Griselbrand & Omniscience. Some day, they might print something even more stupid.

Yet we're probably not getting any viable tutor or LD spell anytime soon. Maro's New World Order sucks.

[testing32]

I would have no problem with this card if it was white and human.

[Zombie]

I would have no problem with this card if it was white and human.

I would. It can be Sweet Baby Jesus' Fairy Godmother for all I care, the design is nothing short of an abomination.

[TsumiBand]

There are a fuck-billion ways to kill an Invisible Stalker.

There are like... single-digit number of playable Magic cards that deal with Identity Nemesis, or whatever it's called.

I realize it's tantamount to a fallacy in Magic, but first of all - you have to play through counterspells to get there, and Merfolk isn't exactly skimping on the countermagic.

It's also in a deck that's lousy with Lords, so it is NOT a 3/1. Really stop looking at its toughness in a vacuum; that's like evaluating Goblin Piledriver as a 1/2 under all circumstances.

So okay, things will fly over it or the occasional "damage can't be prevented" spell will dick it. Or a Supreme Verdict, or maybe something awful like Barter in Blood or Mutilate or something will kill it. Just, you know, resolve it against Merfolk. Now that they don't have to counter anything that Identity Nemesis can't just block, kill, or ignore... yeah, resolve that 4-of you sided in. Seems real good.

So again, I don't think this is ruining Legacy, but it's just a dick move from Wizards. It's a plant; this card is balls-tastic in EDH, and there's no subtlety at all; this goes right into Merfolk.dec. It's a straight-shot to Legacy -- it is too carefully planned to not be intentional, which means they thought about it, but they didn't think about it very hard, or very elegantly. So they know we're here, and they decided to throw us a bone, but it's a non-interactive piece of tribal fuck that is in the wrong color. A 3/1 designed to deny interaction in the same zone as Blue is classically supposed to have the most trouble with, the battlefield. Nevermind that it can't be Bolted; Blue cancels spells all the time. It blocks Goyf all day? It survives Pyroclasms? I can't even Arrest that piece of shit?

FML. Whatever. Please MaRo, tell me why it is okay for it to exist, or tell me why I'm ungrateful for being thrown a bone. Please oh please. Complete your failure.

[HammafistRoob]

Lol this thread is great. Keep crying, it's pretty amusing.

[Barook]

FML. Whatever. Please MaRo, tell me why it is okay for it to exist, or tell me why I'm ungrateful for being thrown a bone. Please oh please. Complete your failure.
And there's Maro's bullshit justification (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/64228231117/how-is-the-new-commander-merfolk-that-grants-protection#notes):

Protection from color is primary white. Protection from non-color is suppose to be blue’s thing but we really haven;t played it up much

How can you put an answer into the comments? Let's have a look at blue's special protection cards:

Horizon Drake
Riptide Biologist
Shoreline Raider

3 blue cards in the entire history of MTG so far that grant non-color protection.

Let's have a look at white's non-color protection:

Angelic Curator
Baneslayer Angel
Beloved Chaplain
Commander Eesha
Devoted Caretaker
Dragonstalker
Elite Inquisitor
Foothill Guide
Holy Mantle
Kitsune Riftwalker
Midnight Duelist
Mistmeadow Skulk
Riders of Gavony
Runed Halo
Spare from Evil
Spirit Mantle
Tattoo Ward
Unquestioned Authority

18 cards, with quite a few current examples.

[Tombstalker]

Magic has evolved over the years. The initial concept of each color still exists sure buts things have changed for better or worse.. kinda like democrats and republicans. Point is im pretty sure the guys with rights to the IP of MTG determine what slice belongs in which pie.. roll with it.

[Pippin]

Absolutely disgusting card. Any clues which specific persona designed this abomination?

[Barook]

The initial concept of each color still exists sure buts things have changed for better or worse.. kinda like democrats and republicans.
How long until they raise the bar for uncreative design to prevent another creative bankruptcy?

[Rush80]

Created a SCD thread with its own Identity as I feel it may have long-term repercussions and discussions.

I suggest to keep posting on new Commander 2013 cards on this thread: you never know the wizards may drop another bomb.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Magic has evolved over the years. The initial concept of each color still exists sure buts things have changed for better or worse.. kinda like democrats and republicans. Point is im pretty sure the guys with rights to the IP of MTG determine what slice belongs in which pie.. roll with it.

I have rolled with changes...haven't bought new sealed product from Nu-Ravnica onwards :cool:.



This is an extremely dumb card that will likely be placed in the "weakest" pre-con to drive the sales. While Wizards seemingly can't design for shit, they are certainly shrewd enough to know where to strategically place cards to drive sales.

[DrHealex]

I like to think that the evil powers at be were all around a golden table, stroking their goatees, when the following conversation took place.

Evil Asshat1: Hexproof is the most beloved mechanic of the current age, so how do we go about strictly upgrading it?
Evil Asshat2: Let's add protection from everything "your opponent" controls as well!
Evil Asshat3: GENIUS! Now, pass me some more of that roasted fetus.

[FieryBalrog]

Magic has evolved over the years. The initial concept of each color still exists sure buts things have changed for better or worse.. kinda like democrats and republicans. Point is im pretty sure the guys with rights to the IP of MTG determine what slice belongs in which pie.. roll with it.
They disagree amongst themselves about it, so....

[rufus]

I guess they'll be adding a new exception to rule 400.7 to make Opal Palace work. Though I guess there's some slop there already thanks to the :2: increase for repeated casting from the command zone.

[Tylert]

Curse of Shallow Graves

Enchantment — Aura Curse (Uncommon)

Enchant player
Whenever a player attacks enchanted player with one or more creatures, that attacking player may put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield tapped.
Illus. Karla Ortiz #71/51

Interresting card. The fact that it does not trigger on non-token creatures only makes it interresting with Bitterblossom on the battlefield.

[Higgs]

First print uncounterable removal, then print unremovable creature. Trippy..

[allek]

This thread is awesome, you guys are the most cynic bunch of crybabies ever. I remember when all of you hated on all cards with CMC > 2 because everybody was always dead before turn 3 (yeah right...). Now bashing new cards in general and WOTC set designers and the messed up color pie is the latest rage.

The fishman is really sweet and I think it's actually a really good and innovative design. I'm always happy when we get new cards with totally unprecedented abilities.
Is a 3/1 unkillable/unblockable dude too much for your deck to handle? On turn 3?? Try playing tendrils. Or Terminus. Or using Mother of Runes. Or just attacking with more than one creature. Or something with flying. Or kill the jitte if he gets equipped... Or SNT:ing into Omniscience. Or reanimate Elesh Norn. Hell, all tier one decks has an out to this card... Or start playing standard, you guys seem to enjoy being miserable.

[Aggro_zombies]

Curse of Shallow Graves

Enchantment — Aura Curse (Uncommon)

Enchant player
Whenever a player attacks enchanted player with one or more creatures, that attacking player may put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield tapped.
Illus. Karla Ortiz #71/51

Interresting card. The fact that it does not trigger on non-token creatures only makes it interresting with Bitterblossom on the battlefield.
?

It makes a single zombie each time you attack. It's kind of garbage.

[Tylert]

?

It makes a single zombie each time you attack. It's kind of garbage.

Can you tell me if we have some cards that are functionnally equivalent?
I mean, it does not requires mana, it creates a 2/2 token and it's a harder to take care of than a creature.

Yes it does nothing alone, but the design seems interresting.

[apple713]

I'm predicting Supreme Verdict, Terminus, and Wrath of God to be en vogue throughout the next year.

liliana of the veil, pernicious deed, massacre, infest, engineered plague, moat, ensnaring bridge... none of these are regularly seen in the top 8 decks of legacy tournaments. Supreme verdit and terminus are really the only answers that are currently being utilized. Liliana has the potential to remove this if they dont have another creature in play.


This guy is better than every white protection card ever printed. It's like printing the best counterspell ever in White thanks to stuff like Lapse of Certainty and Frontline Medic. I'm sure everyone would be thrilled about that. The most disgusting thing is, decks like D&T have been waiting for cards like this for years. You know, in the color where it makes sense.

I mean look at Paladin En-Vec, who is supposed to be "strong" for a white protection creature at 1WW. This guy is so far ahead of Paladin En-Vec he isn't in the same universe.

i guess the card that we should expect to be printed is "W : choose a player. if that player controls a spell on the stack remove that spell from the stack and exile the card."




I think this card is beyond stupid, but then I have the same opinion on Delver of Secrets and Deathrite Shaman. Stupid or not, it looks to be stupidly effective and I now need to preorder some of these. At least it'll be affordable while its in print thanks to it being part of a special release. I do hope it's the card that breathes some life back into Stoneblade variants because I miss that deck.

this is along the same lines of delver and DRS.


Magic has evolved over the years. The initial concept of each color still exists sure buts things have changed for better or worse.. kinda like democrats and republicans. Point is im pretty sure the guys with rights to the IP of MTG determine what slice belongs in which pie.. roll with it.

The problem with nemesis identity is when creatures like this are printed, along with already existing creatures like delver of secrets, you continue to add cards that do not belong in the color pie to that color. Over time maybe in the next 2 years, regardless of the type of deck you want to play, combo, control, or aggro, you play blue. That should never be the case because then everything that isnt blue is playing red elemental blast...

blue should absolutely not get the best aggro creatures. They should however get creatures with abilities because blue is about trickery and subtle utility.

I guess i should stock up on Llawan, Cephalid Empress <-- main deck?!?

[Kayradis]

Helene Bergeot stated it : They are not supporting Legacy (not in those exact words but you know what I mean).
They don't care about the format.
They care about...
Hmm...
Well....
Money?

Next year? My Little Pony & MTG crossover.
You heard it here first.

http://d37nnnqwv9amwr.cloudfront.net/photos/images/newsfeed/000/221/478/102145%20-%20applejack%20crossover%20fluttershy%20magic_the_gathering%20mtg%20pinkie_pie%20ponies_mtg%20rainbow_dash%20rarity%20twilight_sparkle.jpg

[Lemnear]

Gabe, don't steal my pony troll pic I used here before

[Kayradis]

"What has been seen cannot be unseen!"

LOL

Should have put Copyright Lemnear next to it.

[rufus]

...
The problem with nemesis identity is when creatures like this are printed, along with already existing creatures like delver of secrets, you continue to add cards that do not belong in the color pie to that color. Over time maybe in the next 2 years, regardless of the type of deck you want to play, combo, control, or aggro, you play blue. That should never be the case because then everything that isnt blue is playing red elemental blast...
...

That or the new non-targeting Switcheroo they just added.

[Esper3k]

If Identity Nemesis makes a significant impact, I think we'll see an uptick in Jund, which already has tools to deal with him (Liliana, Golgari Charm being two of the more major answers).

[ReAnimator]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=550076
There is a picture in the thread.

Restore
1G sorcery
Put target land card in a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.

So this looks interesting.
Can get any land from any graveyard.
Use it as an Untapped Rampant Growth in the early game, re-buying a fetch or some such, or just grab an extra wasteland.

[Dice_Box]

Or grab the other guys wasteland and hit him with it. I mean in elves we don't run Wasteland to this is cool. The other use could be to grab something nuts like Cradle back... I like.

[Lemnear]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=550076
There is a picture in the thread.

Restore
1G sorcery
Put target land card in a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.

So this looks interesting.
Can get any land from any graveyard.
Use it as an Untapped Rampant Growth in the early game, re-buying a fetch or some such, or just grab an extra wasteland.

Nice design ... A 2-mana Sinkhole if anyone has a waste in their gy

[TsumiBand]

That land sucks. some people really like Shimmering Grotto or whatever it's called, but I can't stand stuff that makes me pay for mana fixing. Unless it's like Cabal Coffers or Nykthos or something. In EDH, naturally.

Might be cool with that Zombie that keeps its counters when it changes zones, I guess. And being able to turn a 6/6 into a 7/7 or more is kind of cool, that's a whole turn off the command damage win.

Okay maybe it's all right.

Edit - Restore is badass. Fetchlands, cycling lands, etc, hells yeah.

[UnderwaterGuy]

That land sucks. some people really like Shimmering Grotto or whatever it's called, but I can't stand stuff that makes me pay for mana fixing. Unless it's like Cabal Coffers or Nykthos or something. In EDH, naturally.

Might be cool with that Zombie that keeps its counters when it changes zones, I guess. And being able to turn a 6/6 into a 7/7 or more is kind of cool, that's a whole turn off the command damage win.

Okay maybe it's all right.

Edit - Restore is badass. Fetchlands, cycling lands, etc, hells yeah.

The land is fine. It's not a new staple but it's easily worth including in any deck that uses a general with +1/+1 counters. Ghave, the new Naya Ghave, Ulasht, etc.

[Barook]

Restore is a pretty cool card.

Sadly, it blows in a meta where DRS is the most-played creature of the format.

[tsabo_tavoc]

From the Ashes :3::r:
Sorcery (R)
Destroy all nonbasic lands. For each land destroyed this way, its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched his or her library this way shuffles it.

There has to be a home for this card in Legacy.

Edit: Ruination

[Phoenix Ignition]

This thread is awesome, you guys are the most cynic bunch of crybabies ever. I remember when all of you hated on all cards with CMC > 2 because everybody was always dead before turn 3 (yeah right...). Now bashing new cards in general and WOTC set designers and the messed up color pie is the latest rage.

It's crazy right?!?! It's almost like there's a large community of people who visit this site, all with their own respective opinions and beliefs!!!

[Megadeus]

Restore is a pretty dope card. I like it allot.

[Lemnear]

Restore is a pretty dope card. I like it allot.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/228/b/4/i_love_u_alot_by_sylvacoer-d46t4fh.jpg

[Barook]

This thread is awesome, you guys are the most cynic bunch of crybabies ever. I remember when all of you hated on all cards with CMC > 2 because everybody was always dead before turn 3 (yeah right...). Now bashing new cards in general and WOTC set designers and the messed up color pie is the latest rage.

The fishman is really sweet and I think it's actually a really good and innovative design. I'm always happy when we get new cards with totally unprecedented abilities.
Is a 3/1 unkillable/unblockable dude too much for your deck to handle? On turn 3?? Try playing tendrils. Or Terminus. Or using Mother of Runes. Or just attacking with more than one creature. Or something with flying. Or kill the jitte if he gets equipped... Or SNT:ing into Omniscience. Or reanimate Elesh Norn. Hell, all tier one decks has an out to this card... Or start playing standard, you guys seem to enjoy being miserable.
How is Mom going to solve it?

Nemesis deserves all the hate it gets. Not only that it's a non-interactive PoS, it also was jammed into blue because someone on R&D has a raging hard-on for the :u:. Maro's reasoning behind putting it into blue is full of shit since it clearly points at it being a white card.

All we wanted were a few new fun cards to play with. We didn't ask for the definition of an unfun card in wrong color. Homogenization is bad for the game since it makes it boring and the "blue does everything" trope is exactly that.

Last time I checked, the game was still called "Magic: The Gathering" and not "Magic: The AWESOMING".

[Megadeus]

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/228/b/4/i_love_u_alot_by_sylvacoer-d46t4fh.jpg

Yeah damn phone auto correct and such

[nedleeds]

Restore is a pretty dope card. I like it allot.

I think Regrowth is better 90% of the time. Relying on an opponents resources is bad. It does "ramp" you but 2 CC land ramp is shit in eternal. Grim Discovery is better than this. Life from the Loam is better than this. Yeah you steal their land so they can't loam it ... i'd rather just exile it and draw a card. It's a sorcery which is also shitfuckingtastic with DRS running around.

[Cire]

I think Regrowth is better 90% of the time. Relying on an opponents resources is bad. It does "ramp" you but 2 CC land ramp is shit in eternal. Grim Discovery is better than this. Life from the Loam is better than this. Yeah you steal their land so they can't loam it ... i'd rather just exile it and draw a card. It's a sorcery which is also shitfuckingtastic with DRS running around.

Restore returns the land to the battlefield . . . instead of your hand, so you don't use up a land drop. The issue isn't ramping - but acting like a 1G sinkhole as long as their is a Wasteland in ANY graveyard.

[kirkusjones]

Shattergang Brothers 1BRG
Legendary Creature - goblin artificer

2B, sacrifice a creature: each other player sacrifices a creature
2R, sacrifice an artifact: each other player sacrifices and artifact
2G, sacrifice an enchantment: each other player sacrifices an enchantment
3/3

I like this card. Mostly because it lends itself perfectly to a Hammer Brothers alter.

[Valtrix]

I think you guys mean to say it's a :1::g: wasteland if there's a wasteland in any graveyard. Last time I checked Sinkhole destroys basics too. I think two mana is too much to pay for this effect; at :g: I think it would have been very interesting.

[TsumiBand]

The land is fine. It's not a new staple but it's easily worth including in any deck that uses a general with +1/+1 counters. Ghave, the new Naya Ghave, Ulasht, etc.

Yeah no I've thought about it and it is okay. The theme of rewarding players for casting their generals early and often is a little insipid, but this card is kind of an okay variant of that.

I think there are quite a few commanders that get a small kick in the ass from this. As I said before - the commander damage win is a turn faster with a 7/7 than a 6/6, and a *lot* of 6-power commanders are out there. Unless I'm misunderstanding the card, you'll get your counters on the first casting, so the first time you cast your, I dunno, Rorix or whatever, it'll be a 7/6. Not bad.

And yeah the counter abusers will have a field day as well. But there are a ton of 6-power commanders that can threaten a 3-turn win with this land in play, which is pretty cool. Skithirix is a 2 turn clock after one casting with the land, although it would ideally be played with Nightmare Lash and friends anyway, probably. Rorix because mono-red is boss and haste is never bad. Grr.

[Mewens]

I know I'll be using Opal Palace in my pauper Kavu Predator deck. I usually play against big-boy decks, and the extra 1-3 counters will be a great help closing games there (and ripping it in the opening 7 lets me be a little more aggressive anyway).

I also like the mathematical dovetail of a 3-mana predator and a Reverent Silence being a 21/21 general. I don't know how often it'll be relevant on turn 4, but I've had to 2-shot players on turns 3 and 4 with a 20/20 often enough that I'm slightly annoyed by the phenomenon. (Not particularly regularly, mind you, but often enough.)

[apple713]

I think you guys mean to say it's a :1::g: wasteland if there's a wasteland in any graveyard. Last time I checked Sinkhole destroys basics too. I think two mana is too much to pay for this effect; at :g: I think it would have been very interesting.

at :G: for this you have it being somewhat comparable to crop rotation and crop rotation is already too powerful.

t1 forest
t2 wasteland -> target opponents land
tap forest to restore wasteland, targeting opponents land again... probably too efficient

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Toxic Deluge and Unexpectedly Absent seem playable.

[Gheizen64]

See? Unexpec.... Absent is a decently designed card for legacy, not that other abomination. It has interesting implications and whatsnot.

[Gheizen64]

Deluge is playable too, and it's an answer to the new horribly designed nemesis of magic. I like it, pretty simple design but was never done before.

[Lemnear]

Double Disenchant? Kewl!

Memory Lapse for permaments? Not that bad in response to fetchlands

[ivanpei]

Toxic Deluge seems good on paper but I think it has very narro. Applications in legacy. Control doesn't like losing life and aggro control usually has alot of small weenies.

The fact that it's scalable os interesting. A bug deck with fatties like stalker and goyf might make use of the scaling wrath effect. The permanent memory lapse isn't very good because white already has plenty of answers to none land stuff. Oring and Sphere seem to have more utility especially against show and tell. The double white also makes it hard to cast. Might make it into some mono white tempo lists like death and taxes though.

So far I like Nemesis the most though that has limited applications as well. So far no clear cut legacy staples like flusterstorm or ooze yet. Of the lot I think nemesis is the most likely to reach staple status.

[Aggro_zombies]

Uh, Nemesis is this set's Flusterstorm - the card that is terrible in multiplayer Commander but very good in Eternal formats. At the bare minimum is gives Merfolk a creature that is good independent of the number of lords you have (something that deck sorely lacked), and it might also see play in midrange or control decks as a difficult-to-stop threat.

[Rush80]

Unexpectedly Absent

xWW
Instant

Put target nonland permanent into its owner's library just beneath the top X cards of that library.


______________________________

Excellent PW removal for white at instant speed

[mrjumbo03]

Toxic Deluge might be viable as a wish target in storm.

[Barook]

Toxic Deluge might be viable as a wish target in storm.
I think Toxic Deluge deserves a second look in general. It's pretty much a Damnation for :2::b: which makes it pretty splashy. Sure, it sucks against burn and counters, but it has also the upside of being pretty one-sided wit the right deck construction.

Unexpectedly Absent is a monowhite instant-speed non-land Vindicate in response to shuffle effects. Question: What would happen if X was 0? Would the card stay in play?

[rufus]

...
Unexpectedly Absent is a monowhite instant-speed non-land Vindicate in response to shuffle effects. Question: What would happen if X was 0? Would the card stay in play?

It goes to the top of the library.

[alderon666]

I think Toxic Deluge deserves a second look in general. It's pretty much a Damnation for :2::b: which makes it pretty splashy. Sure, it sucks against burn and counters, but it has also the upside of being pretty one-sided wit the right deck construction.

Unexpectedly Absent is a monowhite instant-speed non-land Vindicate in response to shuffle effects. Question: What would happen if X was 0? Would the card stay in play?

Put on top of the library with zero cards on top of it? Pretty much Submerge for any kind of permanents.

[Higgs]

Price of knowledge, toxic deluge.. I'm liking the art on this set.

[Zllig]

Grixis Deck is insane value. Notable cards are: True-Name Nemesis, Baleful Strix, Sol Ring, Strategic Planning (Doubt that'll be 40 bucks though lol), and all of the new cards which might be a few bucks.

Edit: Also, I really love a lot of the new art for some of the reprints. Some of them are quite nice.

[Lemnear]

Toxic Deluge might be viable as a wish target in storm.

Looked at it, thought it might me interresting to Dodge the Mother of runes + Hatebear Problem, tested, noticed that 4 mana (Thalia) is stupid much for storm (and Massacre is better in that case), think Pyroclasm is better overall, forget card.

[Finn]

Does Opal Palace just make colorless in Legacy?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Toxic Deluge looks very promising.

[Nihil Credo]

Does Opal Palace just make colorless in Legacy?

If you mean the second ability, no. It has the same wording as Command Tower: if you have no commander or your commander is colourless, it doesn't make any mana at all. If you meant the first ability, duh.

[Star|Scream]

Grixis Deck is insane value. Notable cards are: True-Name Nemesis, Baleful Strix, Sol Ring, Strategic Planning (Doubt that'll be 40 bucks though lol), and all of the new cards which might be a few bucks.

Edit: Also, I really love a lot of the new art for some of the reprints. Some of them are quite nice.

Where did you get the actual deck list info?

[Lemnear]

Where did you get the actual deck list info?

Online at the mothership

[SirTylerGalt]

I've always wanted to build a Grixis Slaver deck, with Baleful Strix, Sensei's Top, Goblin Welder, Thirst for Knowledge, Tezzeret... But always missed a good black sweeper. Toxic Deluge might solve that problem :)

It's also pretty good in a Death's Shadow deck to clear the board :p

I can't wait to cast Unexpectedly Absent to bounce a CounterBalance when Miracles taps top to miracle an Entreat.

[Gheizen64]

Wow Lim's Dul vault reprinted, didn't expect that. Red got yet another sweeper, this time color-selected, because red is obviously control color zz.

[Star|Scream]

Online at the mothership

Thank you.

[Cire]

What about:

Widespread Panic 2r
Enchantment
Whenever a spell or ability causes its controller to shuffle his or her library, that player puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.

In a Blood Moon Deck? Get out early and reap in the benefits?

[rufus]

What about:

Widespread Panic 2r
Enchantment
Whenever a spell or ability causes its controller to shuffle his or her library, that player puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.

In a Blood Moon Deck? Get out early and reap in the benefits?

Does nothing by itself, and takes a long time to come out outside of a stompy mana base. It would be marginally more interesting if it were a replacement instead of a triggered ability, but mostly it seems awful. I guess you can sleeve up your Soldier of Fortunes. They could have at least given it a body and flash like Aven Mindcensor or made the cc more reasonable like Leonin Arbiter.

[Momuney]

Toxic Deluge does indeed look very promosing. Depending on the composition of the deck that it is in, it can be a one-sided sweeper against goblins, merfolk (especially with the new mini-progenitus), D&T, and BUG or cascade variants that don't run high goyf/tombstalker (for BUG) counts. I am just not sure yet what deck wants this card.

[Koby]

Wow Lim's Dul vault reprinted, didn't expect that. Red got yet another sweeper, this time color-selected, because red is obviously control color zz.

This one is actually good. Not Legacy good (because Pyroclasm), but seems like it may make a splash in Young Pyromancer decks vs Elves, Delvers/merfolk, or D&T.

[TsumiBand]

Toxic Deluge is bad ass. In lots of formats. Hell yes I'd pay 5 life to wipe the board, if it meant getting rid of all the derpy indestructible hexproof "protection from players" garbage, or even just having them onboard to pay 2-3 life in the early game against a weenie rush. That's cool as shit.

I can't tell if Widespread Panic is very good, or if it's just a near-miss. I can imagine all kinds of situations where a mono-red deck would never want to shuffle and would never be affected by this, and so it would make fetchland + Brainstorm players have a little pause, I guess? But I can imagine a lot of things. I wonder if it will do what it looks like it's trying to do.

Restore is really neat. I feel like there are a ton of interesting ways to use it. It gives those one-mana cycling lands an interesting new interaction; maybe(?) a Loam deck would benefit from being able to use the same cards to draw things as well as accelerate their mana.

Unexpectedly Absent is pretty slick. I'm liking the ability to hide shit in the library as a White trick. As an Instant, responding to fetchland activations turns it into a 2-mana Vindicate. Given the kind of power creep in creatures we've experienced over the last like eight years, that's pretty okay with me.

So I still think True-Name Emesis is in the wrong color and probably never needed to exist, but then again I've always kinda wanted to play Blouses, so maybe whatever. But all in all I don't feel like a huge disservice has been done anymore.

[guelahpapyrus]

What about:

Widespread Panic 2r
Enchantment
Whenever a spell or ability causes its controller to shuffle his or her library, that player puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.

In a Blood Moon Deck? Get out early and reap in the benefits?

Flavor text should be:

"He sent pieces of his mind on tour."

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The problem with Toxic Deluge is that there's not actually a lot of good control-y lifegain in black to make up the difference again. You could go white but I'm not sure at that point that it's better than Terminus or Supreme Verdict.

[Aggro_zombies]

The problem with Toxic Deluge is that there's not actually a lot of good control-y lifegain in black to make up the difference again. You could go white but I'm not sure at that point that it's better than Terminus or Supreme Verdict.
A BUG control deck with, say, Thopter Foundry might be interested in that effect. I'm not sure what such a deck would look like or whether it's anywhere close to as good as Miracles, but it's a possibility.

[Darkenslight]

A BUG control deck with, say, Thopter Foundry might be interested in that effect. I'm not sure what such a deck would look like or whether it's anywhere close to as good as Miracles, but it's a possibility.

Then perhaps it's time to brew....

[TsumiBand]

Does nothing by itself, and takes a long time to come out outside of a stompy mana base. It would be marginally more interesting if it were a replacement instead of a triggered ability, but mostly it seems awful. I guess you can sleeve up your Soldier of Fortunes. They could have at least given it a body and flash like Aven Mindcensor or made the cc more reasonable like Leonin Arbiter.

So I was under the idea that nearly every deck makes use of tutors or fetchlands... doesn't this affect anyone who would use a "top of library" tutor or would go for the Brainstorm/fetch combo, or anything similar? I don't know that constantly Memory Lapsing yourself to have access to all the colors is a proposition every deck is willing to entertain.

I mean yeah it costs 3, if that's what you primarily dislike about it, but I think it might be worth 3 mana to set Brainstorm back.

[AngryTroll]

I'm disappointed that there aren't any two color legendary creatures. The mothership article (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/269c) didn't link to Kongming, "Sleeping Dragon", making it look like Kongming was a new card, and I was really hopeful that it would be some sort of cool WB legendary dragon.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I'm disappointed that there aren't any two color legendary creatures. The mothership article (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/269c) didn't link to Kongming, "Sleeping Dragon", making it look like Kongming was a new card, and I was really hopeful that it would be some sort of cool WB legendary dragon.

Highly disappointed. I can't believe there were not more generals. Last time we got 15 new ones but this time there are only 10.

[Aggro_zombies]

To be fair, in the last year we did just get twenty new two-color generals, plus five more in Theros. There's also the fact that the shards had more legendary support prior to this Commander release than the wedges did at the time - or, indeed, than some of the enemy two-color combinations did (like UG).

That said, I, too, was hoping for more new legendary creatures.

[Star|Scream]

2/10 would not buy.

[TsumiBand]

To be fair, in the last year we did just get twenty new two-color generals, plus five more in Theros. There's also the fact that the shards had more legendary support prior to this Commander release than the wedges did at the time - or, indeed, than some of the enemy two-color combinations did (like UG).

That said, I, too, was hoping for more new legendary creatures.

I figured that was part of the logic. There are a bunch of old, newer and new Shard-colored Commanders - doing a cycle of Shard generals is cool with me, but honestly after a while some lists just get to looking like "good stuff in the following colors" that more generals is a little uninteresting. Unless you're referring to the lack of supporting legendaries like Nin the Pain Artist and things like that. Eh.

[Barook]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/269

This article is about how they plant cards for Eternal in the Commander sets and how Unexpectedly Abscent is one of them.

Fun fact: Wizards considers Edric, Spymaster of Trest as impactful on Legacy as Flusterstorm and Scavenging Ooze. :confused:

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Toxic Deluge does indeed look very promosing. Depending on the composition of the deck that it is in, it can be a one-sided sweeper against goblins, merfolk (especially with the new mini-progenitus), D&T, and BUG or cascade variants that don't run high goyf/tombstalker (for BUG) counts. I am just not sure yet what deck wants this card.


Yeah, I think it's something of a sleeper. TBH, I'd even pay 15 to get rid of an Emrakul. :tongue:

[dontbiteitholmes]

Unexpectedly Absent is sick. It has a powerful effect and a surprising amount of versatility. I can think of a lot of interesting interactions where you could get tricky with this guy.

Examples, oh you Brainstorm to fix Delver, how bout I put that Tarmogoyf back on top for you.
You Siezed my Batterskull I fetched off SFM early game? I'll just chump your dude then put him back on top before damage and tutor up a Jitte later.
Hey you're in topdeck mode and need to find an out? How about I put your worst permanent on top of your library instead!
You miss a 3rd land drop. EOT put your 3 drop on top of your library and Wasteland you.

Then of course late game you can just eot bury problems a little deeper then the game is likely to last or at least until you have time to draw answers.

I can think of a lot of corner cases where you could totally blow someone out with this. IMO much better than the Vindicate slot if UWb Blade ever comes back. It's interesting that it can be used offensively, defensively, as removal, as a combat trick, as ghetto bounce, as tempo, or to time walk potential top-deck outs, so many uses. I think it's a card not a lot of people are going to "get" but if the format is slow enough this guy is going to shine.
Very scary as a one of, blowout potential relevant.

Too bad Deadguy never really was a deck, it would have loved this guy.

Also can I say how much I LOVE that this is WWX and not WBX or UWX or 1WX or some other too easy to splash bullshit! It's like WOTC read my diary.

[apple713]

Unexpectedly Absent is sick. It has a powerful effect and a surprising amount of versatility. I can think of a lot of interesting interactions where you could get tricky with this guy.

Examples, oh you Brainstorm to fix Delver, how bout I put that Tarmogoyf back on top for you.
You Siezed my Batterskull I fetched off SFM early game? I'll just chump your dude then put him back on top before damage and tutor up a Jitte later.
Hey you're in topdeck mode and need to find an out? How about I put your worst permanent on top of your library instead!
You miss a 3rd land drop. EOT put your 3 drop on top of your library and Wasteland you.

Then of course late game you can just eot bury problems a little deeper then the game is likely to last or at least until you have time to draw answers.

I can think of a lot of corner cases where you could totally blow someone out with this. IMO much better than the Vindicate slot if UWb Blade ever comes back. It's interesting that it can be used offensively, defensively, as removal, as a combat trick, as ghetto bounce, as tempo, or to time walk potential top-deck outs, so many uses. I think it's a card not a lot of people are going to "get" but if the format is slow enough this guy is going to shine.
Very scary as a one of, blowout potential relevant.

Too bad Deadguy never really was a deck, it would have loved this guy.

Also can I say how much I LOVE that this is WWX and not WBX or UWX or 1WX or some other too easy to splash bullshit! It's like WOTC read my diary.

how about, in response to your fetch land, bye bye permanent....

[bruizar]

Lol, that article on printing for eternal seems like total backwards rationale. I'm pretty sure they didn't print Baleful Strix for eternal because there was simply no home for it unless you considered UB Tezzeret a deck, which at the time totally wasn't. At that stage it was still called Bridgewalker as far as I know. Sam Stoddard is touting his horn for RND's great design skill, when in fact, they have admitted to not even considering eternal formats when designing new sets.

This is just a PR stunt to keep the eternal players happy and thinking that RND gives attention to eternal formats (other than modern).

I also highly doubt how ubiquitous Unexpectedly Absent is going to be. It is not a Submerge, because Submerge is sided in when it is FREE. Unexpectedly Absent costs WW which limits it either to Miracles, Death 'n Taxes or maybe, Esper (if it werent for vindicate). In all reality I see this card in Miracles as a 1-off in the maindeck, and 1 in the sideboard. These decks are already chock full of good cards, so there simply isn't much place for cards like this.

It seems like mono-white and UW control's version of abrupt decay, but with more utility and more constraints. Especially since Abrupt Decay is in the same colors as Deathrite Shaman, which requires a heavy fetch manabase to operate and thus gives Unexpectedly Absent more applications against Abrupt Decay/Deathrite Shaman decks. At the same time Abrupt Decay's can't be countered clause is great against the decks that use Unexpectedly Absent, since those will either be DNT (Lots of targets) or UW control / miracles / Counterbalance (Strong against permission).

This card will start at $10, then get hyped up by mtgthesource players to $20, then fall back down. Finally, it will be reprinted as a judge foil or a coreset foil, and the old version will be worthless. BTW this also happened with the planeswalkers hype. Every new planeswalker was thought to be the next Jace and the price of most of them came down hard. The same thing is happening to sets like Commander and Planechase now. Just because there were eternal cards in the previous ones, doesn't mean there will be eternal cards in the next one. Wizards is trying to sell you on the idea that this is true, but they only do so because they want to sell packs to eternal players too. Don't be a fool and judge cards on their merit, not on historical phenomena.



As far as Etched Merfolk goes, we already had Etched Champion. While that card certainly is fine in a deck where an over-costed 2/2 can be played with mana ramp and equipped with insane artifacts like cranial plating, merfolks dont have access to those type of things. Sure, Aether Vial is al nice and cool, but attacking with a 3/1 on turn 5 isn't exactly pushing the edge of competitiveness. Also, I would probably prefer to drop a lord with aether vial on turn 4 that gives me an IMMEDIATE impact on my opponents life total. Perhaps as a sideboard card against Tarmogoyfs and no Islands it could be used, but I'd rather just rely on terraforming a land with spreading seas and walking my lords all over the place, or submerging that goyf or something. The only aspect that I do like is that it doesn't suffer from the usual problem of merfolks, which is dealing with the lords before they can get big (punishing fires, lightning bolts, swords to plowshares). The problem though, is that this card isn't a lord itself. If it was, I would totally love the card. If you are still considering to get this card, ask yourself if you think you can wait until turn 5 in a format where emrakul and ad nauseam make fishburgers out of your deck.

[Final Fortune]

The problem with Toxic Deluge is that there's not actually a lot of good control-y lifegain in black to make up the difference again. You could go white but I'm not sure at that point that it's better than Terminus or Supreme Verdict.

It's an obvious replacement for Damnation in that U/b 8 Planeswalker deck

[TsumiBand]

Lol, that article on printing for eternal seems like total backwards rationale. I'm pretty sure they didn't print Baleful Strix for eternal because there was simply no home for it unless you considered UB Tezzeret a deck, which at the time totally wasn't. At that stage it was still called Bridgewalker as far as I know. Sam Stoddard is touting his horn for RND's great design skill, when in fact, they have admitted to not even considering eternal formats when designing new sets.

This is just a PR stunt to keep the eternal players happy and thinking that RND gives attention to eternal formats (other than modern).

I also highly doubt how ubiquitous Unexpectedly Absent is going to be. It is not a Submerge, because Submerge is sided in when it is FREE. Unexpectedly Absent costs WW which limits it either to Miracles, Death 'n Taxes or maybe, Esper (if it werent for vindicate). In all reality I see this card in Miracles as a 1-off in the maindeck, and 1 in the sideboard. These decks are already chock full of good cards, so there simply isn't much place for cards like this.

It seems like mono-white and UW control's version of abrupt decay, but with more utility and more constraints. Especially since Abrupt Decay is in the same colors as Deathrite Shaman, which requires a heavy fetch manabase to operate and thus gives Unexpectedly Absent more applications against Abrupt Decay/Deathrite Shaman decks. At the same time Abrupt Decay's can't be countered clause is great against the decks that use Unexpectedly Absent, since those will either be DNT (Lots of targets) or UW control / miracles / Counterbalance (Strong against permission).

This card will start at $10, then get hyped up by mtgthesource players to $20, then fall back down. Finally, it will be reprinted as a judge foil or a coreset foil, and the old version will be worthless. BTW this also happened with the planeswalkers hype. Every new planeswalker was thought to be the next Jace and the price of most of them came down hard. The same thing is happening to sets like Commander and Planechase now. Just because there were eternal cards in the previous ones, doesn't mean there will be eternal cards in the next one. Wizards is trying to sell you on the idea that this is true, but they only do so because they want to sell packs to eternal players too. Don't be a fool and judge cards on their merit, not on historical phenomena.



As far as Etched Merfolk goes, we already had Etched Champion. While that card certainly is fine in a deck where an over-costed 2/2 can be played with mana ramp and equipped with insane artifacts like cranial plating, merfolks dont have access to those type of things. Sure, Aether Vial is al nice and cool, but attacking with a 3/1 on turn 5 isn't exactly pushing the edge of competitiveness. Also, I would probably prefer to drop a lord with aether vial on turn 4 that gives me an IMMEDIATE impact on my opponents life total. Perhaps as a sideboard card against Tarmogoyfs and no Islands it could be used, but I'd rather just rely on terraforming a land with spreading seas and walking my lords all over the place, or submerging that goyf or something. The only aspect that I do like is that it doesn't suffer from the usual problem of merfolks, which is dealing with the lords before they can get big (punishing fires, lightning bolts, swords to plowshares). The problem though, is that this card isn't a lord itself. If it was, I would totally love the card. If you are still considering to get this card, ask yourself if you think you can wait until turn 5 in a format where emrakul and ad nauseam make fishburgers out of your deck.

I'd believe that they design for Eternal in EDH product considering some of the things that came out of the last Commander set. The EDH product is never Standard or Modern legal, so the bar is necessarily higher; if they just poop out a bunch of Modern schlock the whole product will just look like overcosted jank next to even half-decent EDH decks. Flusterstorm is a pretty obvious plant; I think Baleful Strix was a decent try but didn't really catch because it's a bit homeless; Chaos Warp is decent-not-broken and is kind of not-very-Red, but it is another clearly planted card since it is just a 1v1 card to begin with.

It's kind of like the same problem with Legacy or Eternal in general; really if we're playing to win we're playing the biggest legal fuck-ups that they ever printed. It's hard to bring yourself to make mistakes when you feel like you know what you're doing, even if you're trying to be unintentional. I liken it to knowing how to play an instrument -- you've been at it for like 15+ years or whatever, and then someone says "now act like you have no idea how to play", and you find that if you think about it, you can't really accidentally play something nearly as shitty as you did 15 years ago, but if you don't think about it and try to just let your hand fall in random places on your instrument your muscle memory goes "Aha fucker, that's secretly a Cmaj9 I made you play right now. you thought i'd let you down after all these years?" So new "for Eternal" cards tend to be done with a little too much 'on-purpose' design; it isn't a bunch of young guys inventing a game, it's people who've got 20 years of theory to draw from and probably couldn't let themselves print anything remotely like the old stuff, even if they wanted to.

The Etched Merfolk/Etched Champion comparison is a near-miss, IMO - to split hairs, for one thing Etched Champion's protection is conditional whereas you can drop True-Name into a ton of Blue-heavy decks and get the same 3/1 with pro-player - basically it's free to show up wherever it wants to, Merfolk, UW Stoneblade, fuckin Blouses bitches, and so on. Additionally Etched Champion is 'only' protection from all colors; if one had a colorless response to that creature they could play it, whereas with True-Name Nemesis, one can't even do that because it has protection from everything in your deck regardless of what it is. I can't think of too many cromulent colorless 'spells' that aren't just like artifacts that blow up CMC X stuff like Engineered Explosives or whatever, but it wouldn't care either way.

I really think that it's not a broken card it's just in the wrong color. It will be a bitch to take out in a Merfolk deck though; I mean basically it's surrounded by Lords and shit so any -X stuff won't scale well, or "sac a creature" spells will just eat the other things in play - it's Supreme Verdict or nothing.

Anyway, the WW spell should see a strong resurgence of Angel Stompy, because fuck 'em. Just fuck 'em. Turn 2 I will flip my Exalted Angel with Mother of Runes on standby, and suckers will be all "Tombstalker I choose yoooou" and I be like untap and "so that guy costs a bunch next turn, right?" and they'll punch me in the breakfast for being an asshole and I will probably have to drop from the tournament because I'm pants in a fight

[Finn]

I find it interesting that Sam Stoddard referred to Legacy as the "most popular eternal format". If that is so, why are there three to four times as many Modern GPs?

[Barook]

I find it interesting that Sam Stoddard referred to Legacy as the "most popular eternal format". If that is so, why are there three to four times as many Modern GPs?
Because Legacy doesn't make them enough money.

[Megadeus]

I find it interesting that Sam Stoddard referred to Legacy as the "most popular eternal format". If that is so, why are there three to four times as many Modern GPs?

Because modern by definition is not an eternal format

[ivanpei]

Unexpectedly absent costs too much mana for that sort of effect. Memory lapse type cards are best in tempo decks and Tempo can't pay WW to deal with a permanent. Most legacy permanents are 3 to cast and below so unexpectedly absent will not gain you that much tempo. Also white has some of the best anti everything cards such as Dsphere and Oring. That's probably what limits Unexpectedly Absent. I would much rather have Venser, Dsphere or Oring because this format has a ton of Show and Tell. I think Unexpectedly absent will see some play, maybe a 2 off in some sort of Tempo list. WW is really too much for a lot of decks, you really need to be heavy white to use it.

[bruizar]

I know this is a commander thread, but if you're looking for a nice new white card, I'd look at Theros' Gift of Immortality over Unexpectedly Absent. Yeah, I'm so confident that that card is good that I'm willing to speculate on a white aura.

[AngryTroll]

It looks like the value cards are True-Name Nemesis and Baleful Strix in the UBR deck, Unexpectedly Absent in the UWG deck, and Toxic Deluge in the UWB deck. Each deck has a Command Tower and a Sol Ring. Am I missing anything?

It's kind of frustrating that the cards that are interesting for Legacy are in one deck each instead of multiple decks. Wouldn't True-Name Nemesis be perfect in the UWG Twiddle deck?

[Tylert]

It looks like the value cards are True-Name Nemesis and Baleful Strix in the UBR deck, Unexpectedly Absent in the UWG deck, and Toxic Deluge in the UWB deck. Each deck has a Command Tower and a Sol Ring. Am I missing anything?

It's kind of frustrating that the cards that are interesting for Legacy are in one deck each instead of multiple decks. Wouldn't True-Name Nemesis be perfect in the UWG Twiddle deck?

I guess they planned it. Split the value cards in all decks, so you have to buy all of those :)

[CalebD]

Did a set review with my thoughts and some lists:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-commander-2013-set-review/

[Kayradis]

Good review.
Loved the troll factor with Opal-whatever-its-called.

[lyracian]

Did a set review with my thoughts and some lists:
Nice read. Surprised to see you did not put Nemesis into Team America though.

[TsumiBand]

I feel like Toxic Deluge deserves a slightly bigger level of enthusiasm, since it's probably the most playable 3-mana Wrath in Legacy that isn't beholden to creature types or colors or indestructible nonsense.

Otherwise I like it.

[CalebD]

Nice read. Surprised to see you did not put Nemesis into Team America though.

It might belong there, but I was trying to emphasize Toxic as a Plague Wind.

[Koby]

It might belong there, but I was trying to emphasize Toxic as a Plague Wind.

A little off-topic, but I'm curious why Black Sun's Zenith has not seen the same application in Team America, esp vs Tribal & Vial decks.

[Darkenslight]

A little off-topic, but I'm curious why Black Sun's Zenith has not seen the same application in Team America, esp vs Tribal & Vial decks.

Quite possibly the BB in its cost and the scaling issue also seen in Bane of the Living. Both have an X in their relevant costs. Deluge only has a B in its cost, and is much more splashable.

[Koby]

Quite possibly the BB in its cost and the scaling issue also seen in Bane of the Living. Both have an X in their relevant costs. Deluge only has a B in its cost, and is much more splashable.

Possibly, but Team America has routinely cast: Sinkhole, Tombstalker, Hymn to Tourach; and now some versions have DRS to supplement its mana advancement.

[Richard Cheese]

A little off-topic, but I'm curious why Black Sun's Zenith has not seen the same application in Team America, esp vs Tribal & Vial decks.

I would guess that there's just no reason to run it over Golgari Charm. Charm is one mana cheaper, has other useful modes, and at x=2 you start killing your own Delvers and Deathrites and putting Tombstalkers in bolt range.

[TsumiBand]

I would guess that there's just no reason to run it over Golgari Charm. Charm is one mana cheaper, has other useful modes, and at x=2 you start killing your own Delvers and Deathrites and putting Tombstalkers in bolt range.

I guess this will depend on how often TNN is actually a 3/1. Pretty much every deck people are pointing to as a home for True-Name have some way of raising his toughness.

[apple713]

Possibly, but Team America has routinely cast: Sinkhole, Tombstalker, Hymn to Tourach; and now some versions have DRS to supplement its mana advancement.

the issue is that its inferior to other options....
at
x = 1 infest is better
x = 2 massacre is probably better cause it has the option to be free / Damnation
x = 3 damnation is probably superior

Team america doesn't want an excess of mana so x=3 is probably rare in that deck.

[2Rach]

A little off-topic, but I'm curious why Black Sun's Zenith has not seen the same application in Team America, esp vs Tribal & Vial decks.
-1/-1 counters, ironically, makes it weaker. The whole point of -x/-x effects being good is that you can scale them against their creatures. Your opponents' x/1 creatures die and your fatties end up ok. Putting -1/-1 counters on your big guys takes the wind out of the sails imo. And obviously there are better cards that you could run, like Golgari Charm.

Also, versatility is key. With only a max of 15 sb slots your card needs to be really good against what you're looking for if really narrow(Perish, Virtue's Ruin, Chill) or moderately good against a good amount of matchups(Golgari Charm, Pernicious Deed, Duress).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It looks like the value cards are True-Name Nemesis and Baleful Strix in the UBR deck, Unexpectedly Absent in the UWG deck, and Toxic Deluge in the UWB deck. Each deck has a Command Tower and a Sol Ring. Am I missing anything?

It's kind of frustrating that the cards that are interesting for Legacy are in one deck each instead of multiple decks. Wouldn't True-Name Nemesis be perfect in the UWG Twiddle deck?

I think Restore is interesting and potentially Legacy playable, and it's in multiple decks. The other Legacy-playables are certainly one-ofs though.

[AngryTroll]

I think Restore is interesting and potentially Legacy playable, and it's in multiple decks. The other Legacy-playables are certainly one-ofs though.

Good call; Restore is currently flying pretty low on the radar, but looks interesting.

[tinker]

I feel like Toxic Deluge deserves a slightly bigger level of enthusiasm, since it's probably the most playable 3-mana Wrath in Legacy that isn't beholden to creature types or colors or indestructible nonsense.

Otherwise I like it.

I'm also suprised that people haven't talked about toxic deluge. I would be willing to loose life just to wipe the board. You can potentially have it out in turn 2, if need be, using deathrite.

[rufus]

I think Restore is interesting and potentially Legacy playable, and it's in multiple decks. The other Legacy-playables are certainly one-ofs though.

Strategic Planning seems like an interesting reprint.

What's the order of play for Tempt with Discovery?

[Aggro_zombies]

Strategic Planning seems like an interesting reprint.

What's the order of play for Tempt with Discovery?
It's turn order, so your opponent will see what land you get before they make a choice (and then you get to see their choice before making your next one).

[rufus]

It's turn order, so your opponent will see what land you get before they make a choice (and then you get to see their choice before making your next one).

So Thespian's Stage-> Dark Depths isn't going to happen often. The joy of choice cards. Even so, it's one of a very small number of cards that will fetch any land.

[Aggro_zombies]

So Thespian's Stage-> Dark Depths isn't going to happen often. The joy of choice cards. Even so, it's one of a very small number of cards that will fetch any land.
Well, if you fetch either half, your opponent can just find Wasteland and wait. They'll be able to respond to the activation to take out Stage.

Whether it's better to get Waste and let them find both pieces or not get Waste and let them sit on one (with the other possibly in hand) is another issue.

[cherub_daemon]

Does nothing by itself, and takes a long time to come out outside of a stompy mana base. It would be marginally more interesting if it were a replacement instead of a triggered ability, but mostly it seems awful. I guess you can sleeve up your Soldier of Fortunes. They could have at least given it a body and flash like Aven Mindcensor or made the cc more reasonable like Leonin Arbiter.

Widespread Panic
2R
Enchantment Rare
Whenever a spell or ability causes its controller to shuffle his or her library, that player puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.

Just to clarify, they cut off any interesting interaction between this and Soldier of Fortune or Surgical Extraction by saying that the controller has to control the effect to cause the shuffle. I was hoping that Bitter Ordeal might finally have become useful, but no go.

What I'm looking for is a way to benefit you to be able to put your own stuff on top of your library, but the only thing I've got at the moment is Skill Borrower, which is sorta bleh. The card I was thinking of originally was Mise, which is not, as they say, Legacy-legal. Soooo...Draco Explosion?

Seems fun on its face, but I'm pretty sure it's terrible. As per Rufus, Flash would have made it interesting, or a 1CC.

[rufus]

...

What I'm looking for is a way to benefit you to be able to put your own stuff on top of your library, but the only thing I've got at the moment is Skill Borrower, which is sorta bleh. The card I was thinking of originally was Mise, which is not, as they say, Legacy-legal. Soooo...Draco Explosion?

Seems fun on its face, but I'm pretty sure it's terrible. As per Rufus, Flash would have made it interesting, or a 1CC.

Heh. It's worse than I originally thought.
I'm not entirely sure about the timing, but you should be able to put a card on top of your deck, and then fire it off with violent outburst, and maybe other cascade cards. (The usual suspects would be no-cc suspend cards.)

I think WotC are recognizing that tutors somewhat mangle the desired properties of EDH/Commander. This is their first attempt to deal with that. Soon they'll print an overpowered/undercosted version in :u:.

[SirTylerGalt]

I think Restore is interesting and potentially Legacy playable, and it's in multiple decks. The other Legacy-playables are certainly one-ofs though.

Turn 1: Play land, Steppe Lynx
Turn 2: Play fetchland, fetch land, cast Restore on fetchland, fetch another land. Attack with 8/9 Steppe Lynx

Add Vinelasher Kudzu for some fun Landfall deck. You could even splash blue for Delver, Daze, and Ensnare.



Another approach would be to play Lotus Cobra and generate mana with it...

[TsumiBand]

Widespread Panic
2R
Enchantment Rare
Whenever a spell or ability causes its controller to shuffle his or her library, that player puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.

Just to clarify, they cut off any interesting interaction between this and Soldier of Fortune or Surgical Extraction by saying that the controller has to control the effect to cause the shuffle. I was hoping that Bitter Ordeal might finally have become useful, but no go.

Oi, I missed that on the first pass. That's a good catch.

Insert troll post about how between Widespread Panic and Unexpectedly Absent, RW Rifter has a powerful new ally in opponent's shuffling?

...

[(nameless one)]

When do these become legacy legal?

[Darkenslight]

When do these become legacy legal?

On release, mostly.

[Gammadoom]

Turn 1: Play land, Steppe Lynx
Turn 2: Play fetchland, fetch land, cast Restore on fetchland, fetch another land. Attack with 8/9 Steppe Lynx

Add Vinelasher Kudzu for some fun Landfall deck. You could even splash blue for Delver, Daze, and Ensnare.



Another approach would be to play Lotus Cobra and generate mana with it...

Before you attack with your 8/9 Steppe Lynx you obviously want to Crop Rotation for another fetch land and then Berserk for the win.

[Megadeus]

Before you attack with your 8/9 Steppe Lynx you obviously want to Crop Rotation for another fetch land and then Berserk for the win.

Dont Tempt me. I'll do it!

[Fatal]

And get a Abrupt Decay XD - Its all in strategy - Restore seems funny, but still not to great IMO, it just rampart growth, specially with all DRS running around.