[SCD] True-Name Nemesis

[troopatroop]

Not quite perfect. It does have UU in its casting cost, after all.

My thoughts exactly, how could anything without 2 colorless be perfect for Faerie Stompy?

[thEnd3000]

Believe it or not, I won’t be playing this guy in my Merfolk deck anytime soon. I played a great deal of Merfolk last week, including going 4-0 at a small tournament, so what I am going to say is not simply theory crafting.

When I was playing last week, I tried to make a mental note of whether Coralhelm Commander would have been better off as TNN. The answer was… not in a single game. Having flying, costing 2 mana (the sweet spot for Vial), being an awesome mana-sink, and being an additional lord were always far superior in my testing.

Some of Coralhelm’s key plays last week were blocking Geist’s angel token when I was below 5 life, blocking an Insectile Aberration that was quickly threatening to run away with the game, and finishing off multiple combo opponents by going ultimate and pumping the whole team. I also found the security of knowing that I should almost always keep Vial at 2 extremely helpful.

Trust me; 1UU is just not worth it in Merfolk. If I would cut anything for TNN, it might be Reejerey, but the fact that Reejerey only costs one blue mana and acts like a combined Goblin Warchief and Chieftain (minus giving haste) make me very skeptical about cutting him. TNN may turn out to be an all-star in some other deck, but I predict that it will not be Merfolk. I say this knowing that I may have to eat my words in the future, but that risk is some of the fun in making predictions anyway.

[Zombie]

Nemesis feels far more of a multicolor midrange / midrange-leaning tempo (TA, Patriot) card to me than a Merfolk card.

[Fatal]

This it - its really worth.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You just posted a list in merfolk that had at least 3 TN in the main, fatal. Did I miss something?

-ABC

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Fatal]

Quote was missing ;)


I wasn't very hot on TNN in Merfolk but this actually seems pretty good since RUG is a huge part of most metas.

Merfolks with SFM is probably one of the best home for TNN, Deathrite Blade is probably second one, but it missing important part which merfolks has - pumping to dodge Golgari Charms/E.Plague.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Actually, we do have pump in the form of Zealous Persecution, which is pretty good, and was used in Esperblade (which will see a comeback of drastic proportions imo due to the TNN) along with Lingering Souls, which I'm guessing is even more useless now that we have this. It's still good at generating tempo, but I think TNN surpasses that need for some much needed win-condition.

I am not sure which blade list is going to be best, but I do feel that SoFI is gonna make a lot more lists now. 7 damage guarunteed a turn plus a card draw? Yes, please.

-ABC

[Piceli89]

I wrote a short article about TNN and its questioned impact for Legacy. As much as I was on the "sky will fall" side, after some thought favored by valid points in this topic I came to conclude that, because of it being a creature essentially just devoted to combat phase, it won't shake things upside down so deeply.

Here (http://www.mtgq.it/true-name-nemesis-in-legacy-influente-o-carente/)
(In italian, easily understandable by english and french imo// use a proper translator as BabelFish or Google)

[Star|Scream]

I wrote a short article about TNN and its questioned impact for Legacy. As much as I was on the "sky will fall" side, after some thought favored by valid points in this topic I came to conclude that, because of it being a creature essentially just devoted to combat phase, it won't shake things upside down so deeply.

Here (http://www.mtgq.it/true-name-nemesis-in-legacy-influente-o-carente/)
(In italian, easily understandable by english and french imo// use a proper translator as BabelFish or Google)

Thanks for the write-up

I tried to read it in English and it's really difficult to understand.

Nemesis would give it an excellent weapon to resist in those matchup where the large number of removal on his knees during the initial assault of Men Muscle Blue, allowing you to tuck the last lethal damage before the incremental benefit dell'opponent

[Higgs]

From the translation I was able to make out most of it. I agree with your assertion that most natural choices for TNN will be Team America (BUG Delver) and Patriot. Team America is a good home because it can reliably disrupt opponents long enough for TNN to finish them off, doesn't have a weak combo matchup (assuming combo could get a boost from the introduction of TNN to the format) and can cast it turn 2 with Shaman. I think TNN fits right in to the plan. Same with Patriot. Patriot doesn't really need the 6dmg clock from Geist, it is mainly interested in the untargetability and TNN does a better job in that slot. In addition to what Geist does, TNN can also block Tarmogoyfs, attack through Strix and Tarmogoyf and can really carry that Jitte home through anything. Also, like you mention in your article, it is easier to cast than Geist. If I were to play Patriot now I think I would just slam 3 TNN in there.

[Parcher]

Thanks for the write-up

I tried to read it in English and it's really difficult to understand.

Nemesis would give it an excellent weapon to resist in those matchup where the large number of removal on his knees during the initial assault of Men Muscle Blue, allowing you to tuck the last lethal damage before the incremental benefit dell'opponent

Blue Muscle Men on their knees?!

This article has been Unicorn Approved.

[Piceli89]

Thanks for the write-up

Nemesis would give it (Merfolk) an excellent weapon to resist in those matchup where the large number of removal stops the initial assault of the Muscular Blue Men, allowing the deck to tuck the last lethal damages before the opponent's incremental advantage takes off the game.

Translation fixed.

[Shawon]

While it's probably not Legacy-pertinent, I think the interaction between The Nemesis (as I like to call it) and Earwig Squad is worth noting.

[Albert]

The nemesis of legacy.

I believe people is utterly underestimating the power level of TNN and the impact it will have on legacy.

Assuming the current meta, TNN blows most matchups. It is not only a beater, it is the ultimate wall and the ultimate beater all in one nice blue package. For decks not tuned to beat it, once it lands there is almost nothing that can be done. One single resolved TNN is gg against D&T and almost against JUND, Canadian, Stoneblade, BUG and UWR. That makes for half the DTB. Obviously there are things that can be done with this decks, but you need very specific answers or you will be in for a very uphill battle.

This bring me to the point of where does it fit better. People are considering current decks, while I am convinced that TNN centric decks are the way to go.
I think there are some things to be considered while doing this deck:
- If it dominates as much as I belive it will do, combo will increase since TNN does nothing against it, so you need a tempo shell to take most value out of it. Stifle also owns miracles, one of the few solutions to TNN.
- One possible bottleneck of the TNN plan is resolving it -> aether vial, it also fits good with the tempo plan since it lets you have all your mana open once you resolve a turn 1 vial.
- Creatures: TNN, Pantasmal image as extra copies, SFM for the equipments that will make tnn unstoppable, delver to put extra pressure while we keep disrupting everything
- Since most fights will be for resolving TNN, a red splash for red blasts in the SB, many of them.
- Most of the SB devoted to combo

So the list I have been testing with some success is as follows:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tundra
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 [M12] Phantasmal Image
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [C13] True-Name Nemesis

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [NE] Daze
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [JGC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [JU] Envelop
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 3 [DGM] Wear/Tear


I acknowledge that there are options for the opponents (golgari charm and zealous prosecution being the most notable), but the fast tempo shell, and the fact that this cards are off-color against a heavily disrupting deck makes me believe they can be managed.

Btw, I think R&D know the true meaning of the card, it is designed to be the nemesis of legacy, the final card that will break the equilibrium of the legacy metagame so at last people will start moving to modern.

What do you all think?
Am I over exaggerating things?

[ESG]

I agree with you that a lot of people aren't seeing the card's power yet, but I don't see the conspiracy. If WOTC wanted to damage Legacy, they'd just unban Mental Misstep. That said, I loathe this card and think it was extremely poorly designed.

[testing32]

What do you all think?

I think Aether Vial in a delver deck is terrible.

[phonics]

It may be a strong card, but at the end of the day it is still just a 3cc 3/1 creature that doesn't end the game the moment it is dropped.

[Star|Scream]

The nemesis of legacy.

I believe people is utterly underestimating the power level of TNN and the impact it will have on legacy.

Assuming the current meta, TNN blows most matchups. It is not only a beater, it is the ultimate wall and the ultimate beater all in one nice blue package. For decks not tuned to beat it, once it lands there is almost nothing that can be done. One single resolved TNN is gg against D&T and almost against JUND, Canadian, Stoneblade, BUG and UWR. That makes for half the DTB. Obviously there are things that can be done with this decks, but you need very specific answers or you will be in for a very uphill battle.

This bring me to the point of where does it fit better. People are considering current decks, while I am convinced that TNN centric decks are the way to go.
I think there are some things to be considered while doing this deck:
- If it dominates as much as I belive it will do, combo will increase since TNN does nothing against it, so you need a tempo shell to take most value out of it. Stifle also owns miracles, one of the few solutions to TNN.
- One possible bottleneck of the TNN plan is resolving it -> aether vial, it also fits good with the tempo plan since it lets you have all your mana open once you resolve a turn 1 vial.
- Creatures: TNN, Pantasmal image as extra copies, SFM for the equipments that will make tnn unstoppable, delver to put extra pressure while we keep disrupting everything
- Since most fights will be for resolving TNN, a red splash for red blasts in the SB, many of them.
- Most of the SB devoted to combo

So the list I have been testing with some success is as follows:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tundra
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 [M12] Phantasmal Image
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [C13] True-Name Nemesis

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [NE] Daze
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [JGC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [JU] Envelop
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 3 [DGM] Wear/Tear


I acknowledge that there are options for the opponents (golgari charm and zealous prosecution being the most notable), but the fast tempo shell, and the fact that this cards are off-color against a heavily disrupting deck makes me believe they can be managed.

Btw, I think R&D know the true meaning of the card, it is designed to be the nemesis of legacy, the final card that will break the equilibrium of the legacy metagame so at last people will start moving to modern.

What do you all think?
Am I over exaggerating things?

You act like this card can block more than one creature. If there are 2 goyfs against this card, 1 is still going to get through. And it's easier to get 2 goyfs on the field than 2 TNN

[Secretly.A.Bee]

And it's easier to get 2 goyfs on the field than 2 TNN

How do you come to that conclusion? It's possible to get 2 goyfs SOONER, but I doubt very much it's easier. In fact, the stats are exactly the same in non-GSZ builds.

[fetzonk]

How do you come to that conclusion? It's possible to get 2 goyfs SOONER, but I doubt very much it's easier. In fact, the stats are exactly the same in non-GSZ builds.

And...obviously it's easier to get rid of 1 goyf than a tnn. Tnn will be an insane equipment-carrier.

[Star|Scream]

How do you come to that conclusion? It's possible to get 2 goyfs SOONER, but I doubt very much it's easier. In fact, the stats are exactly the same in non-GSZ builds.

In a format with stifle, wasteland, and daze, spells with a casting cost of 2 are much easier to resolve than spells costing 3.

[Albert]

I think Aether Vial in a delver deck is terrible.

In a vacuum yes. But in this case they serve two different purposes:
- Vial ensures that your TNN lands uncountered -> good against counter decks (and they will rise since the only option against TNN are combos)
- Delver excels against combo as the fastest threat available. Delver is just a complement to the speed of the deck, and from time to time you get those delver-stifle-waste-fow-daze hands that are unbeatable on their own. And as I said I expect combo to rise to ignore TNN altogether.

[Jeet]

The nemesis of legacy.

I believe people is utterly underestimating the power level of TNN and the impact it will have on legacy.

Assuming the current meta, TNN blows most matchups. It is not only a beater, it is the ultimate wall and the ultimate beater all in one nice blue package. For decks not tuned to beat it, once it lands there is almost nothing that can be done. One single resolved TNN is gg against D&T and almost against JUND, Canadian, Stoneblade, BUG and UWR. That makes for half the DTB. Obviously there are things that can be done with this decks, but you need very specific answers or you will be in for a very uphill battle.

This bring me to the point of where does it fit better. People are considering current decks, while I am convinced that TNN centric decks are the way to go.
I think there are some things to be considered while doing this deck:
- If it dominates as much as I belive it will do, combo will increase since TNN does nothing against it, so you need a tempo shell to take most value out of it. Stifle also owns miracles, one of the few solutions to TNN.
- One possible bottleneck of the TNN plan is resolving it -> aether vial, it also fits good with the tempo plan since it lets you have all your mana open once you resolve a turn 1 vial.
- Creatures: TNN, Pantasmal image as extra copies, SFM for the equipments that will make tnn unstoppable, delver to put extra pressure while we keep disrupting everything
- Since most fights will be for resolving TNN, a red splash for red blasts in the SB, many of them.
- Most of the SB devoted to combo

So the list I have been testing with some success is as follows:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tundra
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 [M12] Phantasmal Image
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [C13] True-Name Nemesis

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [NE] Daze
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [JGC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [JU] Envelop
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 3 [DGM] Wear/Tear


I acknowledge that there are options for the opponents (golgari charm and zealous prosecution being the most notable), but the fast tempo shell, and the fact that this cards are off-color against a heavily disrupting deck makes me believe they can be managed.

Btw, I think R&D know the true meaning of the card, it is designed to be the nemesis of legacy, the final card that will break the equilibrium of the legacy metagame so at last people will start moving to modern.

What do you all think?
Am I over exaggerating things?

I agree that people aren't seeing its power until they get to face it.

However, I don't think your deck has enough creatures to support Aether Vial. How does it work in this deck? Tick it to 3 as soon as possible? Leave it at 2 and tick it if you draw Nemesis?

[Albert]

I created a thread to discuss the proposed list in particular:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26980-Legacy-Nemesis

But to answer your question the main point of using vial is to protect TNN weakest point, the stack. This does not mean that we have to go on autopilot ticking vial to 3, it will all depend on amount of mana, colors available, pressure we are under or that we want to apply etc. For the games I have played so far there is no clear cut answer, each game can be different.
Another thing to consider as comparison to merfolks or D&T is that we run 4 Brainstorm and 3 ponder plus fetchlands, so our searching capabilities are way superior than in those other decks.

[Greenpoe]

Stifle does not answer TNN. You can not stifle static (as...enters the battlefield) abilities with Stifle.

[Albert]

Stifle does not answer TNN. You can not stifle static (as...enters the battlefield) abilities with Stifle.

Stifle answers Terminus , one of the few cards that can get rid of TNN.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm so afraid of facing lists that have both goyf and tnn it's not even funny. Also, what about the new green instant that stops a creature from being countered and replaces itself.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[SirTylerGalt]

I'm so afraid of facing lists that have both goyf and tnn it's not even funny. Also, what about the new green instant that stops a creature from being countered and replaces itself.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Lol that's an awesome combo. I need to try this now O_o Flash in an uncounterable 4/2 TNN before blockers, kill an attacker, then attack with it :) I think you just broke the format.

[Lord Seth]

Also, what about the new green instant that stops a creature from being countered and replaces itself.
Got no idea what card you're referring to here. Savage Summoning comes to mind, but it doesn't replace itself and is quite mediocre.

[thefringthing]

Insist does it at Sorcery speed for G.
Bound // Determined does it at Instant speed for UG.

[Lord Seth]

Insist does it at Sorcery speed for G.
Bound // Determined does it at Instant speed for UG.
Neither of those are "new" though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Bummer. I guess I will have to settle for reg speed uncounterable 4/2 with hex proof protection. It's obviously sb material but it'll get the job done and is better than vial in decks not named merfolk.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Albert]

Got no idea what card you're referring to here. Savage Summoning comes to mind, but it doesn't replace itself and is quite mediocre.

Quite mediocre???
Savage Summoning
All of a sudden you just bypassed the bottleneck of the card (the stack) and most of the regular hate cards that can be used (Engineered plague, golgari charm, zealous persecution).
And it also provides flash...

I just bought 4... :tongue:

[testing32]

Quite mediocre???
Savage Summoning
All of a sudden you just bypassed the bottleneck of the card (the stack) and most of the regular hate cards that can be used (Engineered plague, golgari charm, zealous persecution).
And it also provides flash...

I just bought 4... :tongue:

Great, you can play 1 in your commander deck. The card doesn't even see play in standard. It's trash.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

One single resolved TNN is gg against D&T and almost against JUND, Canadian, Stoneblade, BUG and UWR. That makes for half the DTB.
D&T is a 28_creatures deck that plays Wastelands and Ports. Good luck defeating them with a 3/1 for :1::u::u:. "But the Batterskull...!" Yep, they play it. And flyers and StP/Mangara to kill your SFM.
JUND plays Abrupt Decay and sometimes also Pulse. It has Liliana and lots of discard and CA. Good luck defeating them with 3/1 for a :1::u::u:. Oh, they also play Wastelands.
Canadian Thresh, BUG and UWR? Aren't these the decks with StifleDazeWaste Fow, Fow, Fow?
I thought Stoneblade plays some sweepers. Also, they may start to pack Innocent Blood if it's necessary. Unless I'm mistaken, they have tools against an occasional equipment (Vindicate?).
Without equipments, this card does absolutely nothing else than infiblock non-flying creatures.
PPl should start to be resonable about the card, it needs a support to become anything else than an overcosted dude.

[Barook]

Why are people trying to be fair with this uninteractive PoS? No intends to break it? Imho, we aren't Riding the Dilu Horse hard enough yet.

I'm thinking about UGr Hexproof Berserk Stompy with Silhana Ledgewalker, Invisible Stalker and Nemesis to completely blank spot removal or pretty much any board interaction they could have. Throw in Brainstorm, FoW, Daze, some green pump spells, Berserk, a light red splash for Assault Strobe and maybe Reckless Charge to flip your opponents the finger.

Sure, Nemesis costs more and traditional lists are rather land-light, but it could be worth it with a modified list.

[boneclub24]

Quite mediocre???
Savage Summoning
All of a sudden you just bypassed the bottleneck of the card (the stack) and most of the regular hate cards that can be used (Engineered plague, golgari charm, zealous persecution).
And it also provides flash...

I just bought 4... :tongue:

You're going through all this work to get a 3/1 with hexproof that still needs support to win the game when you could just Show and Tell in a Progenitus and get the job done much faster and easier.

[Star|Scream]

You're going through all this work to get a 3/1 with hexproof that still needs support to win the game when you could just Show and Tell in a Progenitus and get the job done much faster and easier.

4/2 hexproof, 4/2!

[boneclub24]

4/2 hexproof, 4/2!

Oh dang, well in that case.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think that since it's out today, and BoM being tomorrow, I'm probably done with speculation. I'm going to pick my 4 up after work tonight (If my local wal-mart has them put out, sometimes they get fairly lazy), and put back together Esper DeathBlade in some fashion to begin my True-Name Reign of Terror. If I were running Goyfs, I would run Savage Summoning. I'm not, and I feel my counter backup will be sufficient, and vial sucks, so I at this point won't be cheating the counter players as much, but I think it's going to just obliterate the metagame.

-ABC

[Einherjer]

8 Nemesis in Top4 of the French Championship.
(BUG and Bant)

Greetings

[Megadeus]

Are there deckloists anywhere?

[mrjumbo03]

8 Nemesis in Top4 of the French Championship.
(BUG and Bant)

Greetings

I thought one of the decks only had 2. The commentators initially said 4 each, but later they retract and said that 1 deck only had 2 (can't remember which deck), then goes on to say that it was really hard to get the card on the day itself.

[Megadeus]

I bet on site they are trading for retarded value

[Barook]

Looks like Nemesis Delver is going to take it down. Oh boy, we're in for a wild ride.


I bet on site they are trading for retarded value
Somewhere on their site its mentioned people don't have to worry about Commander supply since they'll have more than enough.

Other commander deck: 29€
Nemesis Commander deck: 55€

Yeah...

[Jeet]

8 Nemesis in Top4 of the French Championship.
(BUG and Bant)

Greetings

BUG and Esper

Esper: http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/bug-top8-cdf-legacy/

I think Canonist is True-Name Nemesis.

[Megadeus]

Looks like Nemesis Delver is going to take it down. Oh boy, we're in for a wild ride.


Somewhere on their site its mentioned people don't have to worry about Commander supply since they'll have more than enough.

Other commander deck: 29€
Nemesis Commander deck: 55€

Yeah...

The announcers said they have been difficult to find on site. Idk.

[Tormod]

BUG and Esper

Esper: http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/bug-top8-cdf-legacy/

I think Canonist is True-Name Nemesis.

Can anyone figure out the reasoning for the single Tropical? For EE?

[Arsenal]

Can anyone figure out the reasoning for the single Tropical? For EE?

That's what I'd figure. Also, opening with fetch -> Trop may fake your opponent out and think you're not on Blade Control.

[Megadeus]

I mean yeah, but if you dont have any green cards to cast with it, then you have fetched a wastelandable Island... Like, basic Island into Ponder could be ANYTHING. ANT, Miracles, UR Delver, SNT (either variant), Blade.

[Jeet]

BUG and Esper

Esper: http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/bug-top8-cdf-legacy/

I think Canonist is True-Name Nemesis.

BUG: http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/bug-top8-cdf-legacy-2/

The list is missing 4 True-name Nemesis.

[Albert]

Tnn dominance has begun...

[Gheizen64]

8 Nemesis in Top4 of the French Championship.
(BUG and Bant)

Greetings

Who had any doubts? This card is retardedly uninteractive and at an absurd power level to boot.

[Darkenslight]

Who had any doubts? This card is retardedly uninteractive and at an absurd power level to boot.

I don't know....they could have given it trample, lifelink and deathtouch, too.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This is a merfolk not akroma.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Tormod]

Lets have some perspective here

TNN is new, so players aren't prepared for it. It's only been 23 hours since its become legal. Legacy players are clever, and decks and sideboard and game plans will adapt to deal with TNN.

[Mewens]

Lets have some perspective here

TNN is new, so players aren't prepared for it. It's only been 23 hours since its become legal. Legacy players are clever, and decks and sideboard and game plans will adapt to deal with TNN.

This. If the meta adapted 4-mana Progenitus and 3-mana Emrakul // Griselbrand, I'm pretty sure it'll learn how to cope with True-Name Nemesis.

[Whippoorwill]

Lets have some perspective here

TNN is new, so players aren't prepared for it. It's only been 23 hours since its become legal. Legacy players are clever, and decks and sideboard and game plans will adapt to deal with TNN.

Just like they adapted to Survival's dominance? You can lead a horse to water, etc.

I expect more bitching about this needing to be banned (it doesn't need to be banned) than people actually adapting to deal with it.

[Megadeus]

Golgari Charm just got even better...

[troopatroop]

The problem is Aether Vial + Cavern = It's uncounterable. Your spells ARE counterable, nice Golgari Charm/Infest. Most of it gets hit by Spell Pierce, paired with Force and Daze. Don't underestimate 2 mana lords, and Merfolks ability to body you. Good luck out there, your games are no longer decided by you. They're decided by the man with no name.

[ivanpei]

Why do people here act like you can't race TNN. Sure you can't kill it easily but you can sure as hell race it. TNN is best in a delver style deck where you can get the jump on the opponent in tempo and in life. Then TNN is the perfect to get the last few damage points in. It's similar to geist in that regard, a top of the curve 3cc bomb. How many 3 drops can patriot play? Patriot plays just 2 geist because it simply can't afford that many 3 drops.

The card is good, but it will see play in mainly delver style fast decks as a top end bomb. There are many other equally broken things in the format like stoneforge batterskull and tarmogoyf.

[sdematt]

Looks like Nemesis Delver is going to take it down. Oh boy, we're in for a wild ride.


Somewhere on their site its mentioned people don't have to worry about Commander supply since they'll have more than enough.

Other commander deck: 29€
Nemesis Commander deck: 55€

Yeah...

If my game store decides to sell these about MSRP, I'll just bite the bullet and give WalMart my money. Do you guys have those over there, as evil as they are?

Obviously for this weekend there will be a supply issue and they'll be trading at INSANE value. In 4-6 weeks time? Not so much.

-Matt

[Goin Aggro]

If my game store decides to sell these about MSRP, I'll just bite the bullet and give WalMart my money. Do you guys have those over there, as evil as they are?

Obviously for this weekend there will be a supply issue and they'll be trading at INSANE value. In 4-6 weeks time? Not so much.

-Matt

I pity the people at SCG:LA and Eternal weekend looking for TNN's.

[Barook]

Obviously for this weekend there will be a supply issue and they'll be trading at INSANE value. In 4-6 weeks time? Not so much.
Except Walmart most likely doesn't have that particular Commander deck anymore and sees no reason to order another batch as long as the other Commander decks are lying around.

Aside from the WUB one with Toxic Deluge, the other Commander decks suck. If each of them had one chase card, I'd see no problem, but that's not the case.

[ivanpei]

Wizards did it on purpose, because if I'm not mistaken you have to order all 5 together and can't order them separately from Hasbro. So 1 overloaded value commander deck forces stores to buy all 5. If they spread the value out, Wizards won't sell as much.

It's best to be patient. In a couple of months when the 2nd and 3rd waves hit, you'll see cheap ones around, though I doubt we'll ever see the grixis one at MSRP in game stores.

[HammafistRoob]

I just got a very intriguing idea. What about this guy in a UW affinity build with mox opals and possibly chrome mox and Mox Diamond? Just imagine slapping a Cranial Plating on this mofo.

[Dia_Bot]

I just got a very intriguing idea. What about this guy in a UW affinity build with mox opals and possibly chrome mox and Mox Diamond? Just imagine slapping a Cranial Plating on this mofo.

Are you serious? Does Etched Champion ring a bell..?

[lavafrogg]

Yeah... I might have used bad profanity when I found out that they were charging more for the tricks commander deck. I bought the first four at msrp then at the next shop they were only selling them as a set, at msrp, and then my wife drove all the way across Phoenix to pick up the last one and when she got there they had just bumped the price to $60.

[lyracian]

Aside from the WUB one with Toxic Deluge, the other Commander decks suck. If each of them had one chase card, I'd see no problem, but that's not the case.If you can get it at retail the Grixis deck is the only one you are likely to make money on but I would not say the other decks suck. They may not be full of Legacy staples however the BANT deck has Karmic Guide; Scholar general; Mirror Entity and other decent cards for formats like EDH/Cube as well as Unexpectedly Absent. Naya and Jund may be a little weaker but they both have decent cards such as Wrath of God and Goblin Sharpshooter.

[lavafrogg]

Apart from the fact that they have some good cards in them, they are fun to play!! We have been five manning all day and having a blast!

[Albert]

Top 8 of a Bom trial, 114 players.

http://www.lotusnoir.info/top-8-decklists-bom-2-bye-trial-2013/

3 nemesis decks
3 combo
2 "regulars

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Still can't believe SCG is selling these for $40 and buying them for $25 cash.

And selling the Commander deck for $70. So glad my LGS is selling all decks for $30.

[Barook]

This weekend's insights so far:

- Nemesis is fucking everywhere
- D&T seems to be suprisingly adapt at racing it

Let's see what tomorrow brings.

[Megadeus]

Did they play the finals or are they waiting until tomorrow?

[ubernostrum]

Did they play the finals or are they waiting until tomorrow?

Finals of Legacy Champs were played. Ari Lax (D&T) defeated Osyp (UR Delver with Nemesis), 2-0. Was able to race Nemesis with the Stoneforge package suiting up a Flickerwisp g1, and had a turn 3 Batterskull game 2.

(and amusingly, Ari said in interview that he was just using this to playtest for DC, and hadn't played a game with D&T prior to round 1)

[Jeet]

Zero TNN in Legacy top 8 of BoM.

[lavafrogg]

It is just super overhyped right now. If death and taxes is winning races against it how are the TNN decks supposed to compete with the real aggro decks in the format?

[HSCK]

There are so many of those.....It's a perfect complement to a lot of strategies with a lot of upside on its own, I don't know why that's so controversial.

[Barook]

I don't know why that's so controversial.
1. Magic is based on interaction. Cards that are designed to pretty much remove any interaction are bad for the game.
2. It's in the wrong color. Again. Fuck blue taking everything.

[lyracian]

Zero TNN in Legacy top 8 of BoM.
Where are you seeing the top eight?

[Happy83]

Here you can see the Top8 deck lists:
http://bazaar-of-moxen.com/en_magic-top8-mtg-top-8-vintage-ranking-legacy-rank-bom-top.html

[lavafrogg]

It really should be 1WW.... I feel like wizards mate it white at first and everyone said it was a great card, then mark rosewater walked into the room and realized that they couldn't give white such a good card that wouldn't fit into blue decks easily. The card the. Went from 1WW to 2W but it was too easily splashable so they settled on 1UU so everyone couldn't play it.

[wcm8]

Just as I expected, TNN did not warp the format. In fact, it seems like the card can mostly be ignored by competitive decks in Legacy. Like Snapcaster Mage, after the initial hyperbolic freakout period with people playing 4 copies ends, TNN will settle down and become a decent choice and ran as 2-3 copies in a deck that wants the effect. It's not even necessarily superior to other Blue 3-drop creatures: Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, and Geist of St. Traft are all situationally better.

I agree that any design that limits interaction is a bad addition to the Legacy card pool, but I think we can all begin to finally agree that this card is not that big of a deal. I expect GP Washington DC to be no different from BoM in terms of TNN results.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Just as I expected, TNN did not warp the format. In fact, it seems like the card can mostly be ignored by competitive decks in Legacy. Like Snapcaster Mage, after the initial hyperbolic freakout period with people playing 4 copies ends, TNN will settle down and become a decent choice and ran as 2-3 copies in a deck that wants the effect. It's not even necessarily superior to other Blue 3-drop creatures: Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, and Geist of St. Traft are all situationally better.

I agree that any design that limits interaction is a bad addition to the Legacy card pool, but I think we can all begin to finally agree that this card is not that big of a deal. I expect GP Washington DC to be no different from BoM in terms of TNN results.

First off I happen to be of the opinion that True-Name won't dominate the format, so I agree with you on that, that said...

I think it's entirely too early to say exactly where it will fall in the format. Granted it didn't completely destroy this weekend (with SCG still going on so that's up in the air) but it did make some impact. Not everyone has a playset yet, so that's still a factor. As the card becomes more available it will likely see more people testing it. Also not enough time has passed for all options to be tested. There are plenty of potential uses for Nemesis that just haven't come into fruition yet. This weekend a lot of people were playing decks with TNN for the first time in serious play. They undoubtedly learned something from that and will use it to further tune and test their lists. Also many people played against TNN for the first time this weekend and those who fell to it will make the modifications they feel need to be made to defeat decks with TNN.

So there's still a lot that is undecided as far as TNN is concerned. Its place in the metagame is very much up in the air but I feel that it will end up being a role player similar to V Cliche or Snapcaster rather then a ubiquitous 4x card like Deathrite, Delver, or Stoneforge. Only time will tell though.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I feel like a Top 8 the same week the card is released is not revealing of the card's best application in Legacy.

[Grand Superior]

Yes, it is definitely too early to tell how True-Name Nemesis will affect the format. Some of the uses thus far this weekend have been cool and interesting (It looks great in Team America as a 3/4-of, Esperblade as a 2-of, and in Osyp's UR list) but some of them have been quite questionable IMO and are likely just the result of trying it out (In Shardless BUG replacing 4 two drops? Awkward. In Canadian Threshold replacing all Mongoose? Awful).

I do believe that the card will have an impact in the long run, but having a few top 8 appearances the weekend after it came out is still pretty good.

[(nameless one)]

Merfolk in Vintage finals @ Eternal Weekend

Does it have TNN?

EDIT, Merfolk just won it.

[luckme10]

Merfolk in Vintage finals @ Eternal Weekend

Does it have TNN?

EDIT, Merfolk just won it.

Man I feel sorry for Chris Pikula having to listen to Randy Buehler all day long. The guy pretty much ignored anything Chris said, and just spoke faster and faster. He makes Adrian Sullivan look like Johnny Carson. Just tuning in for 15 minutes made me want to reach in my computer screen and punch him in the face.

And I'm not sure if True Name Nemesis was there or not.

[Megadeus]

I think nedleeds said there were three copies

[Lord Seth]

Yeah I feel like a Top 8 the same week the card is released is not revealing of the card's best application in Legacy.
Exactly. Let's not forget that after it got unbanned, Land Tax did manage a few Top 8's at SCG events before dropping off the face of the format.

[ivanpei]

Exactly. Let's not forget that after it got unbanned, Land Tax did manage a few Top 8's at SCG events before dropping off the face of the format.

This exactly. Remember those terrible land tax miracle lists? They were horrible, but everyone is struggling to shove then in some deck because it's "supposed" to be broken.

[luckme10]

In SCG:LA, a guy running 3 copies made it to the semis with esper stoneblade:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60418

His reasoning for choosing the deck was as follows:
"Saw variations of Esper doing well in Europe and I felt this list was the best to combat S&S. I didn't even get to play against it today though."

Alas, he lost in the semi finals to a sneak and show deck.

[lordofthepit]

In SCG:LA, a guy running 3 copies made it to the semis with esper stoneblade:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60418

His reasoning for choosing the deck was as follows:
"Saw variations of Esper doing well in Europe and I felt this list was the best to combat S&S. I didn't even get to play against it today though."

Alas, he lost in the semi finals to a sneak and show deck.

I don't consider Esper Stoneblade a good deck against Sneak and Show, but I think it's a good deck overall.

I think he should have named Sneak Attack in both G2 and G3 with his Meddling Mage, particularly G2 when he had Karakas in hand. I'm sure he had his reasons to name Show and Tell though.

[ivanpei]

I don't consider Esper Stoneblade a good deck against Sneak and Show, but I think it's a good deck overall.

I think he should have named Sneak Attack in both G2 and G3 with his Meddling Mage, particularly G2 when he had Karakas in hand. I'm sure he had his reasons to name Show and Tell though.

If he name Sneak Attack, show and tell can still drop sneak attack into play. I would have named Show and Tell too. Anyway this is the reason I dislike Meddling Mage. Generic stuff like Flusterstorms, Discard and cliques do more work Imo unless you really need the clock from Meddling Mage.

[lordofthepit]

If he name Sneak Attack, show and tell can still drop sneak attack into play. I would have named Show and Tell too. Anyway this is the reason I dislike Meddling Mage. Generic stuff like Flusterstorms, Discard and cliques do more work Imo unless you really need the clock from Meddling Mage.

Naming Sneak Attack forces him to have both enablers in order to put Sneak Attack into play, and it takes away a blue card to pitch with Force of Will, which was relevant in game 3 if not game 2. This is especially the case since he had Unexpectedly Absent in his hand both games.

[Lt. Quattro]

I like having new and interesting cards added to the legacy pool but does it have to be yet another blue card?

[TsumiBand]

This exactly. Remember those terrible land tax miracle lists? They were horrible, but everyone is struggling to shove then in some deck because it's "supposed" to be broken.

I think this is fairly apt. There's not much difference between unbanning a card and having a new card see print, except the theorycrafting surrounding Land Tax is much older.

I also think that there's a little bit of parsing that needs to be done between these two examples, though. For all the talk of card advantage, card quality, etc etc that people would inject into Land Tax discussions, at the end of the day its effect didn't gel with what a lot of decks were already doing, or didn't make them any better. I'm kind of reaching a little but I would hazard a guess that Land Tax's promise is fulfilled better by Jace the Mind Sculptor, even though it costs 400% more. Granted, the scope of what people wanted to pull off with the old Tax/Rack business is much larger than Jace's, but really the format is already setup to make Jace more favorable; it pitches to Force of Will, it casts Brainstorm which has recognizable synergy with fetchlands - really "Brainstorm-like-effects"/fetchlands is something of a miniature version of the Tax/Rack engine.

That's kind of why I was surprised to see so few Stoneblade-like lists in that recent Top8. If there were an existing deck with the infrastructure to adopt True-Name Nemesis exceptionally well, it seems like it'd be that one. Also there's also not been a chance to really road-test any innovation around TNN either; none of those lists didn't exist without TNN before that tournament.

I'm still of the mindset that the card is exceptionally good, but there are lots of 'good' cards that aren't good anywhere. Like um... Land Tax, I guess. vOv

[PhantomLotus]

I would hazard a guess that Land Tax's promise is fulfilled better by Jace the Mind Sculptor, even though it costs 400% more.

JTMS costs 4x the amount Land Tax costs, but only 300% more.

Other than that, your analysis seems sound to me.

[Finn]

The comparison to Land Tax is not especially apt because Land Tax is an engine card that makes such demands upon a deck that it requires the other 56 cards to be chosen specifically for it. The most visible uses of Land Tax just after its availability was to add a single copy to something for a lark or experiment. The "Land Tax" deck never showed up in top 8s. In contrast, True Name Nemesis is simply being plopped into existing decks with little else changed. There is no brewing or brainstorming on how to make it work, save perhaps some playtesting. From this vantage point, I would expect a lot of people to be trying it out compared to Land Tax. I also expect that this is a card that is excellent on some days and gets sided out often in others. It will likely be a weather bell for the format. I don't see the argument ending any time soon belittling how powerful it is, no matter what the tournament results. But a rapid adoption could make the naysayers moot.

[TsumiBand]

JTMS costs 4x the amount Land Tax costs, but only 300% more.

Other than that, your analysis seems sound to me.

You know what? Fuck math. My computer says 4 = 3 because myArrayOfShit[3] = the fourth item I put in there. The fuck, right? Computers are insane.

I'm kidding. Early morning post is early. Thanks for the red pen.

[Poron]

this card is good only with Equipments, which calls for SFM, which calls Batterskull and Jitte

Batterskull is already good on its own. It chump blocks nearly anything and attacks too (the new merfolk doesn't).
Jitte is big on anything and GST is in colors too...

Don't know how much this card is needed right now and in which deck..

[Megadeus]

After seeing it in action a bit, I think the card is solid, abd to some decks very difficult to beat, but obviously worse vs other decks. I see it as a played card. Not super heavy play, but I think it will see a should amount of play.

[Poron]

yes as a 3x in a SFM based deck.. making it to weild a SoFI is definitly solid.. or better, that's where my fantasy stops

[Arsenal]

I echo others sentiments that it won't be a archetype defining creature like Stoneforge Mystic, Deathrite Shaman, etc, but it'll be a nice complement/supplement as a 1-3x of in a smattering of decks like Grim Lavamancer, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, etc.

[(nameless one)]

I think what people keep forgetting is that this guy is a Merfork.

Merfolk is great against blue because they cant block it. Now this guy is unblockable whatever your opponent is playing.

Also, it blocks Goyfs all day. Remember the days when Merfolk splashed green for Goyf?

[SirTylerGalt]

yes as a 3x in a SFM based deck.. making it to weild a SoFI is definitly solid.. or better, that's where my fantasy stops

I played two Nemesis in my UWr Blade list. Won me a few games. Once equipped with Jitte or Batterskull, it's GG.

[JanoschEausH]

I think decks which naturally support Golgari Charm like Black Maverick, The Rock, BUG and others could see more play when this guy appears more often.

[DragoFireheart]

I like having new and interesting cards added to the legacy pool but does it have to be yet another blue card?

Haven't you heard? The default color for cards being designed is blue. They have to remember to change the color when finishing the card.

[JanoschEausH]

Haven't you heard? The default color for cards being designed is blue. They have to remember to change the color when finishing the card.

Especially, because giving protection from something is inherently White's ability.

[DragoFireheart]

Especially, because giving protection from something is inherently White's ability.

Just a printing/management error, now buy more packs and play Standard/Modern!

[TsumiBand]

Haven't you heard? The default color for cards being designed is blue. They have to remember to change the color when finishing the card.

It's like babies. Babies start out female-ish, and then a gene has to go off in order to turn Xs into Ys and make baby boys. Magic cards are probably exactly the same in development; everyone sits around casting every spell with Islands, until someone goes "guys I know this sucks, but we should *probably* make sure this ramp spell is Green" and everyone goes "UGH whatEVER"



Especially, because giving protection from something is inherently White's ability.

Apparently, buried deep within the archives of MTG articles, they decided years ago to make sure that "protection from [colors]" is White, but "protection from [other stuff]" is Blue. Players are definitely within the realm of "other stuff".

...

I hate this because it's easy to just say, "these are different abilities because they have different words in them, so they are not the same because they are different and you can't safely cast Starstorm when you control TNN, n00b rtfc". But the functional upshot is that 1v1 Magic basically lets protection from the opponent become the equivalent of protection from everything, which is better in all the ways that matter. I'm going to go way out on a limb -- so far that it almost reaches the thread for going out on a limb, but not quite -- and say that in a competitive situation no one has ever looked at their Progenitus and felt like it really needed to interact with Giant Growth effects, but since it doesn't it must be 'strictly worse' than some other giant protection creature.

To that end, I think that it's fair to say that "in all the ways that matter" protection from player just picks up protection from color by its dirty dollar-bin collar and kicks it in the penis. And it doesn't even feel it because it's got protection from the penis that player controls, so it's all like, "I could probs just kick ya in the penis all day, Mother of Runes."

[Quasim0ff]

Dear all.

I was wrong.

I want to play 4 of this card in a BUG Deathrite with 4 thoughtseize shell. This card is insane.

Regards.

[Higgs]

I think the BoM+Eternal Weekend results might be too early to derive any conclusions about TNN's impact, people will have more time to acquire and test TNN lists until GP. Looking forward to that event.

[Barook]

I think the BoM+Eternal Weekend results might be too early to derive any conclusions about TNN's impact, people will have more time to acquire and test TNN lists until GP. Looking forward to that event.
This

DRS didn't immediately take over the format, too.


Apparently, buried deep within the archives of MTG articles, they decided years ago to make sure that "protection from [colors]" is White, but "protection from [other stuff]" is Blue. Players are definitely within the realm of "other stuff".
Except this is 100% bullshit from Maro. They can't even follow their own guidelines.

Fact is that before TNN, blue had three non-color protection cards in the entire history of MTG. Out of those, two are old as fuck.

White has six times as many cards in that category. Hell, Innistrad block alone had more cards in that category than blue in its entire history.

I call bullshit.

[TsumiBand]

This

DRS didn't immediately take over the format, too.


Except this is 100% bullshit from Maro. They can't even follow their own guidelines.

Fact is that before TNN, blue had three non-color protection cards in the entire history of MTG. Out of those, two are old as fuck.

White has six times as many cards in that category. Hell, Innistrad block alone had more cards in that category than blue in its entire history.

I call bullshit.

No I know, I completely agree. I was being an ass :D

I've read the article everyone has pointed to, and even if it's a Real Thing, there are problems in the new definition of "protection from things-besides-color" and issues resolving its execution against historical non-color protection. The game defines the scope of color explicitly, so "protection from colors" is explicitly defined. "Protection from other things" is so vast in scope that it may as well be a negative definition; it can be applied to just about any other in-game structure - from creature types to card types, and (apparently) players.

[Dice_Box]

The price for this guy is stupid. I did a call around this morning. Each store I called is selling the deck below the cost of buying a set of four on ebay and is getting the cards in today.

The guys price can not hold.

[TsumiBand]

The price for this guy is stupid. I did a call around this morning. Each store I called is selling the deck below the cost of buying a set of four on ebay and is getting the cards in today.

The guys price can not hold.

Are they doing the Jitte precon switcheroo?

Anecdotally, I've heard tell from store owners that "other store owners" were opening the BoK precon with Jitte in it, removing it, then selling it -- sometimes right in front of the client, because why not.

[Dice_Box]

No, these where not card shops but just common retailers. One said they had two on order, due in today, and two that they would have in for me by weeks end. The shop in question is a board games store that would have no idea what any of these cards are worth.

If I can call and have the deck ordered in, the price just can not hold.

[Megadeus]

WOTC did say that print run will meet demand. So yeah. Theres that

[Poron]

supply always meet demand. the point is: at which price?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Are they doing the Jitte precon switcheroo?

Anecdotally, I've heard tell from store owners that "other store owners" were opening the BoK precon with Jitte in it, removing it, then selling it -- sometimes right in front of the client, because why not.
Imho it's a urban legend.
While I worked in a lgs, we were not allowed to buy the Rat Pack for purchase price. Store owners like their customers. They live from them.

[Dice_Box]

I played fish tonight with this guy main. Personally, black, as the colour made for tackling non black creatures had no issue. White though could not. Swords did nothing. This is I think a show of things to come.

If TNN takes over, I think black will become a large part of the tri colour decks again. The meta will shift and everything will be a ok. He is not broken, he is more that able to be dealt with but only by one colour with any real efficiency. I am not sure I like that, but at the same time this is blacks field so let's see them play ball.

On a side note. He is not that useful if the rest of your creatures are killed and you need him to hold off a Knight. In that situation all he becomes is a 3 mana maze. A role two separate players forced him into. Effectively controlling him while unable to kill him.

Just my thoughts.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If TNN becomes a real threat, than I expect a resurgence of...

1) ...WBG decks:
- Thoughtseize doesn't care of Vial/Cavern, it just discards the card
- Dark Confidant brings cards
- Decay and Pulse destroy the equipments that make TNN powerful
- Swords clean the path for edicts
- KotR forces TNN to "maze mode" and/or finishes the game in few swings...
- ...moreover she brings Waste to cut the opponent of TNN's mana.
- so does Choke
- Liliana is a bitch

2) ...combo

Am I wrong?

[ivanpei]

Don't forget UW miracles with Terminus.

[Dice_Box]

I find if Miracles can not combo off fast, you can just Island walk them to death. So in that regard I feel True-Name has no single game changing impact on the match. It will play out the same regardless so I did not bother to talk about it.

@Bed, More or less what I see happening.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[DragoFireheart]

If TNN becomes a real threat, than I expect a resurgence of...

1) ...WBG decks:
- Thoughtseize doesn't care of Vial/Cavern, it just discards the card
- Dark Confidant brings cards
- Decay and Pulse destroy the equipments that make TNN powerful
- Swords clean the path for edicts
- KotR forces TNN to "maze mode" and/or finishes the game in few swings...
- ...moreover she brings Waste to cut the opponent of TNN's mana.
- so does Choke
- Liliana is a bitch

2) ...combo

Am I wrong?


1) BGx. (Shardless BUG, Jund, The Rock, etc)
2) Miracle Control.
3) Combo.
4) Merfolk.

So pretty damn close.

[testing32]

I could see BUG delver making a resurgence too. They have a lot of tools to combat TNN. Discard, Waste + daze, FoW, Golgari charm, E. Plague, Edict, Liliana... Their threats also don't care about it for the most part (delver, DRS, Tombstalker/TNN)

[cheerios]

play moar combo

[dontbiteitholmes]

Imho it's a urban legend.
While I worked in a lgs, we were not allowed to buy the Rat Pack for purchase price. Store owners like their customers. They live from them.

As far as Rat's Nest goes all the rumors are true. Most stores sold it above retail, which I don't disagree with since Jitte alone was worth price of admission, but a lot of shadier stores just opened the precon and sold the Jitte.

The LGS game has changed a lot since then. You have to remember back in Kamigawa block the game still wasn't as popular as it is now and customers had a lot less options. A lot of stores that sold Magic cards were really more comic book stores, sports card stores, or general hobby stores that happened to sell cards, especially in smaller markets. There were no real big online places to buy cards except Ebay (which was a lot sketchier back then), I mean there were places but it's not like it is now. Prices were a lot less standardized and there was no one real established price ceiling (SCG pretty much fills these roles now). As a result there were a lot of shady dealers. Magic wasn't their first concern so they would gouge players all the time. Now Magic is a big enough game to almost support a store on it's own and online card sellers provide universal competition, so a lot of these shady places either went out of business or just got out of selling singles. I remember seeing crazy shit back in the day, if you ever see an old price guide check out the HIGH prices for Magic cards and those were pretty common. The common thread on these shady dealers was for some reason they all seemed to think Mystic Remora was some super rare card worth at minimum $20. I've seen Mystic Remora in a case for $300 before no bullshit. Luckily I lived in a pretty big market (Virginia Beach) so there were plenty of respectable dealers like Comic Kings or Atlantis, but there were also lots of shady fuckers.


This

DRS didn't immediately take over the format, too.


This is a double sided argument though. All cards in Legacy are prone to wax and wane and often a new card will see tons of play then drop off to a normal level after some time. Snapcaster is a great example. He's still a player for sure but doesn't see near the amount of play he did when he was new to the format. I expect TNN will play out similarly. It will see increased play over the next few months as people try to jam him into every deck under the sun then wane as people realize he doesn't fit in ALL those decks or that there may be better choices depending on the metagame for particular events. Remember when Snapcaster went into stock RUG lists? Also I feel like combo is such a big part of the metagame right now that it's going to put a damper on some of the TNN fun and games.

[ESG]

Snapcaster is a great example. He's still a player for sure but doesn't see near the amount of play he did when he was new to the format. I expect TNN will play out similarly. It will see increased play over the next few months as people try to jam him into every deck under the sun then wane as people realize he doesn't fit in ALL those decks or that there may be better choices depending on the metagame for particular events. Remember when Snapcaster went into stock RUG lists? Also I feel like combo is such a big part of the metagame right now that it's going to put a damper on some of the TNN fun and games.

TNN is a liability against combo (except for it being blue, increasing your blue count for Force of Will), but it's the best card against fair decks. In this way, TNN isn't like Snapcaster at all. Snapcaster was mere added value, not a game-wrecking bomb. Snapcaster's value shrank due to Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman. The Shaman eats the Snapcaster targets, and in some cases, people simply slotted the card in instead of Snapcaster and then changed a few other cards (usually squeezing in another color) to exploit Shaman. If WOTC comes up with more removal that answers TNN -- particularly uncounterable removal -- then I can see its presence waning, but it is literally the most ridiculous creature printed since Tarmogoyf, and due to availability issues, people haven't had many chances to get rolled by it yet. The crazy prices will hold until more supply reaches players.

[AngryTroll]

TNN...is literally the most ridiculous creature printed since Tarmogoyf, and due to availability issues, people haven't had many chances to get rolled by it yet. The crazy prices will hold until more supply reaches players.

I'd claim that both Delver of Secrets and Deathrite Shaman are more ridiculous than True Name Nemesis. TNN may end up being very good, but it won't see the level of play Delver and Deathrite see in the format.

[Lord Seth]

TNN is a liability against combo (except for it being blue, increasing your blue count for Force of Will), but it's the best card against fair decks. In this way, TNN isn't like Snapcaster at all. Snapcaster was mere added value, not a game-wrecking bomb. Snapcaster's value shrank due to Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman. The Shaman eats the Snapcaster targets, and in some cases, people simply slotted the card in instead of Snapcaster and then changed a few other cards (usually squeezing in another color) to exploit Shaman. If WOTC comes up with more removal that answers TNN -- particularly uncounterable removal -- then I can see its presence waning, but it is literally the most ridiculous creature printed since Tarmogoyf, and due to availability issues, people haven't had many chances to get rolled by it yet. The crazy prices will hold until more supply reaches players.
I think I'd give Deathrite Shaman that title, honestly.

[lordofthepit]

Deathrite will probably continue to see more play than True-Name Nemesis, but the latter is a much scarier card to me. I'd agree with ESG that it's the most ridiculous creature printed in a while... although Emrakul and Griselbrand would take the title.

[HSCK]

I think it's the most ridiculous fair creature, which is scarier, if that makes sense? More accessible to a variety of decks meaning you'll be dealing with the ridiculousness of it more often. I mean, when we're debating if its power level is Snapcaster or Tarmo, how bad can it be?

[Dzra]

I don't really think True-Name Nemesis is a broken card... only a frustrating and unfun card. Most of the time it is situationally worse than other cards in that slot, however the awkward part is that it gives fair Blue decks something that they didn't previously have or need: a "do I gotcha?" card against other fair decks. Let's look at that again... True-Name Nemesis is a card to be used by fair decks to hose fair decks. To me this is the exact opposite of what anyone wants.

Really, they should be focused on giving Black and Red better access to good fair cards (creatures and anti-combo cards in particular), not ways to make fair decks less interactive with each other. Deathrite is a great example of a very powerful creature that increases interaction and decision trees rather than decreases it. True-Name Nemesis isn't busted, it is just the complete wrong direction.

[ESG]

Deathrite will probably continue to see more play than True-Name Nemesis, but the latter is a much scarier card to me. I'd agree with ESG that it's the most ridiculous creature printed in a while... although Emrakul and Griselbrand would take the title.

Yeah, I should have specified that I meant creatures that would normally be cast rather than cheated into play.

[Darkenslight]

Deathrite will probably continue to see more play than True-Name Nemesis, but the latter is a much scarier card to me. I'd agree with ESG that it's the most ridiculous creature printed in a while... although Emrakul and Griselbrand would take the title.

Okay then - DRS and TNN are the most ridiculous cheap creatures printed since Tarmo. Delver is 'just a beater'.

[Final Fortune]

All I have to say is Jund doesn't give two shits about TNN post-board, Engineered Plague is a brutal answer to it. The card is definitely good, but I don't know whether or not it's deck defining at this point.

[lyracian]

Looks like 7 of the top 16 at Dallas were TNN decks; Stoneblade is in first place with 3 main and 1 in the side and Merfolk, in 6th, is running two.

[Barook]

Looks like 7 of the top 16 at Dallas were TNN decks; Stoneblade is in first place with 3 main and 1 in the side and Merfolk, in 6th, is running two.
I'm actually more concerned that Elves is the only nonblue deck in the entire Top 16. I'm not calling for a Brainstorm ban, but they should start printing symmetrical, maindeckable hate that doesn't cost 4 mana and screws Brainstorm users over. 13 Brainstorm decks out of 16 is way too many.

[Quasim0ff]

I'm actually more concerned that Elves is the only nonblue deck in the entire Top 16. I'm not calling for a Brainstorm ban, but they should start printing symmetrical, maindeckable hate that doesn't cost 4 mana and screws Brainstorm users over. 14 Brainstorm decks out of 16 is way too many.
No.

[Dice_Box]

No.Why not? Of a the ideas kicking around, some non blue draw hate would been useful. Was not the last thing printed not Blue and black? I forget the creatures name but I disliked that it was blue.

A nice 2 or 3 drop with a drawback would not do to badly in the current meta. Maybe something like

"~ Deals 2 damage to target player for each card drawn after the first each turn and deals 2 damage to itself."
1/3

One Brainstorm would kill it, but you would have to think about if it is worth it before you pull the trigger on your own spell.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Dice_Box]

All I have to say is Jund doesn't give two shits about TNN post-board, Engineered Plague is a brutal answer to it. The card is definitely good, but I don't know whether or not it's deck defining at this point.I see this said over and over, but to date have not seen Fish blink when Plague lands. Plague may be one answer, but alone it's not going to save you.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Barook]

Why not? Of a the ideas kicking around, some non blue draw hate would been useful. Was not the last thing printed not Blue and black? I forget the creatures name but I disliked that it was blue.

A nice 2 or 3 drop with a drawback would not do to badly in the current meta.

"~ Deals 2 damage to target player for each card drawn after the first each turn and deals 2 damage to itself."
1/3
Why would it need a drawback? What we actually need are more cards in the league of Notion Thief, except cheap enough to be Legacy-playable. Think Thalia.

I would say that it needs to be worded differently to prevent abuse in some kind of card draw combo to kill your opponent.


Whenever a spell or ability causes a player to draw a card, ~ deals 2 damage to that spell's or ability's controller.

[Dice_Box]

Why would it need a drawback?Because the core of the ability belongs to Blue. If you want to do something that belongs to another colour you have to have one of two things:
1) A draw back or
2) Blue in the CMC.

If you do not have either it's unlikely to see print.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Quasim0ff]

Why would it need a drawback? What we actually need are more cards in the league of Notion Thief, except cheap enough to be Legacy-playable. Think Thalia.

I would say that it needs to be worded differently to prevent abuse in some kind of card draw combo to kill your opponent.
OH, like chains of mephistopheles?

[Dice_Box]

OH, like chains of mephistopheles?Yea, chains is a thing, but when was the last time something like that was printed? Last card that had anything close to it was Black and Blue.

Not that I would be against seeing something like chains printed again. But I would like to see it in a colour that's not U/B. They are both already the strongest colours, we need some love in R and G. White I think is just fine with its wave of lovely Taxing abilities.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[rufus]

Because the core of the ability belongs to Blue. ...

Just like protection belongs to white, so TNN got a drawback?

[Dice_Box]

Just like protection belongs to white, so TNN got a drawback?

Protection from Colours is whites thing. Protection from other things is Blues. TNN fits into the colour assigned to it, even if it feels like it should not.

With protection Wizards has always played fast and lose with their own rules anyway. Take Piledriver for exam.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[from Cairo]

Protection from Colours is whites thing. Protection from other things is Blues. TNN fits into the colour assigned to it, even if it feels like it should not.

With protection Wizards has always played fast and lose with their own rules anyway. Take Piledriver for exam.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

I think protection from enemy colors has always been a thing available throughout the color pie - White Knight, Black Knight, Whirling Dervish, Wildfire Emissary, Sea Sprite all date back to early years of magic.

Blue's been the best since forever, so it makes sense that it could just extend beyond enemy colors to just one's enemy - target Opponent.

[PirateKing]

I'm still waiting for the design space teased with Chains of Mephistopheles and Notion Thief to be fully tapped into. That beyond the simple can't be countered/protection from blue there are more creative and color specific ways of hating on blue (or other colors really). Cards that weaken the enemies color's strengths, and force them to fight their game. Thalia does a really good job at this. She's a weenie, and punishes anybody else not also playing weenies, and turns the game into one that's advantageous to white.
I feel like red and green have the most untapped potential as they have the largest gaps in design space. And it seems totally natural to have these colors, who know they will outright lose to blue control, develop can't be countered stuff, but also develop weapons to force blue to play a red/green game, where blue can't properly compete.
That's why Notion Thief bothered me so much, a perfect example of a car that punishes blue's mains strength, and they print it in blue.

[Barook]

I'm still waiting for the design space teased with Chains of Mephistopheles and Notion Thief to be fully tapped into. That beyond the simple can't be countered/protection from blue there are more creative and color specific ways of hating on blue (or other colors really). Cards that weaken the enemies color's strengths, and force them to fight their game. Thalia does a really good job at this. She's a weenie, and punishes anybody else not also playing weenies, and turns the game into one that's advantageous to white.
I feel like red and green have the most untapped potential as they have the largest gaps in design space. And it seems totally natural to have these colors, who know they will outright lose to blue control, develop can't be countered stuff, but also develop weapons to force blue to play a red/green game, where blue can't properly compete.
That's why Notion Thief bothered me so much, a perfect example of a car that punishes blue's mains strength, and they print it in blue.
Traditionally, blue always had the better answer to itself or the answers in better colors were best in blue decks. Mental Misstep and REB/Pyroblast come into mind. That's why symmetric effects like Thalia is so important here.

Problem is that green's hatebears suck - see Tajuru Preserver or Melira, Sylvok Outcast (who is more of a combo piece than anything). Red hatebears would have potential if they dished out damage for non-trivial things - like Ash Zealot, except less narrow. Not the current "Opponent bends you over to violate you? Better ping him for 1!" or "When all stars align, bolt them to the face" - crap. It would also give them a nice way to make distinguish red from black. E.g. a Pyrostatic Pillar with a combat-relevant body would be sweet. All colors should have the tools to combat combo decks in their own way - just that certain colors are better at it.


Protection from Colours is whites thing. Protection from other things is Blues. TNN fits into the colour assigned to it, even if it feels like it should not.
Except that "Blue has protection from non-color things" is an argument Maro pulled out of his ass, considering white has six times as many cards in that category. That's like arguing that they could print a blue Duress since Piracy Charm and Vendillion Clique are blue hand disruption. Or printing a blue Bolt because direct damage was always a blue thing, considering cards like Psionic Blast and Tim. Or a blue StP because Pongify is a thing.

TNN should have never been printed in blue and has only been made to cater the blue crowd.

[blacklotus3636]

SCG Dallas was yesterday and first place was playing U/W stoneblade with 3 true name nemesis. There were 8 total true name nemesis's(nemesi?) in the top 8 but considering over half the top 8 was blue aggro control and that the word isn't completely out yet about how good true name nemesis is I think this is alarming. I actually lost to the guy who ended up 1st in swiss who was playing U/W stoneblade. I was playing welder MUD. Once he landed one true name nemesis I couldn't attack, couldn't block and he jitted it next turn. He was also able to beat a turn 4 blightsteel colossus once he dropped the second one. This card should have had a triggered ability, been legendary or cost more. As it stands this card carried him the entire match. Nothing else he did really mattered that much. Because of this fact, I disagree with anyone who says this card isn't format warping. It makes almost every deck outside combo better by running it and a reanimator player was thinking of boarding it as an alternate win condition/blocker. This card needs a banhammer in the back ASAP.

[dsck]

Doesnt Blightsteel just trample over Nemesis?

[Pdingo]

@Blacklotus3636

Hype??? lol

@Dsck

No, he doesn't, protection from everything. Same for dmg of the Colossus;)

[Arsenal]

The ultra unfair decks don't care about this guy. All it does is make the fair vs. fair matchup better for the TNN player.

[Dice_Box]

Except that "Blue has protection from non-color things" is an argument Maro pulled out of his ass, considering white has six times as many cards in that category. That's like arguing that they could print a blue Duress since Piracy Charm and Vendillion Clique are blue hand disruption. Or printing a blue Bolt because direct damage was always a blue thing, considering cards like Psionic Blast and Tim. Or a blue StP because Pongify is a thing.

TNN should have never been printed in blue and has only been made to cater the blue crowd.I agree, I feel like this card should have been white or just not printed. I also feel like Blue has enough love so I would have liked to see it elsewhere. But if I was king lots of things would change. The one I would start with would be to start testing cards in a legacy environment before they see print.


been legendaryMy one gripe with Commander. The cards that feel legendary can no longer be printed as such due to them being broken ass Commanders.

[Lord Seth]

Protection from Colours is whites thing. Protection from other things is Blues. TNN fits into the colour assigned to it, even if it feels like it should not.

With protection Wizards has always played fast and lose with their own rules anyway. Take Piledriver for exam.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.
I would buy that as an argument for True-Name Nemesis's ability only worked in multiplayer. The problem is that functionally speaking, in a 2-player game, True-Name Nemesis has protection from everything (actually, it's even better than that, but let's go with "protection from everything" for simplicity). Protection from everything is an ability that is certainly not Blue. Though it isn't White either, "protection from everything" is really something that requires the combined might of all 5 colors, as shown in Progenitus.

That's the issue. Functionally speaking, this isn't protection from something other than a color. In a 2-player game, it's functionally protection from everything... but even better!

[blacklotus3636]

Yes, blightsteel does trample over. Here's what happens:

Him: land go
Me: land go
Him: land brainstorm
Me: Metalworker go
Him: true name go
Me: kuldotha forgemaster go
Him: play and equip jitte swing. I go to 17 go
Me: I play trinisphere and pass
Him: swing with jitted true name remove 2 counters. I go to 12. He reequips to the other untapped true name and passes. I blightsteel end step.
Me: swing with blue steel he takes 8 poison. 3 counters on jitte.
Him: swing for 12 next turn

@pdingo

Play against it for a while and you may come around. 3 of the top 8 decks packed true name. This will only climb over time. Within 3 months this card will be in 1 quarter to 1 half of every top 8.

@arsenal

I actually agree with you but it means true name nemesis decks vs. combo will be the format. Thats the definition of format warping. Feel free to disagree but a card that has protection from everything and can be targeted by you for 3 thats a non-legendary 3/1 is definitely one of if not the best creature in the format. I think every blue deck will eventually be forced to play it.

I know its hard for a lot of people to believe right now but give it a few months and we'll let the numbers of true name nemesis in top 8 speak for themselves.

[Lord Seth]

As a side note, could someone please change the topic title to True-Name Nemesis?

[Star|Scream]

Doesnt Blightsteel just trample over Nemesis?

I'm pretty sure you can assign any damage above the 1 toughness to the defending player. If he had an active jitte, subtract 4 from the damage.

Blacklotus3636, would you have been happier if he would've used the 3 mana to cast show and tell, and then proceed to draw 14 cards? It's a 3/1. I'm sorry your deck can't get rid of it, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be banned.

I'm sorry, do zealous persecution, toxic deluge, golgari charm, and engineered plague not all completely answer this guy?

[PirateKing]

I'm sorry, do zealous persecution, toxic deluge, golgari charm, and engineered plague not all completely answer this guy?

Less so in a Merfolk deck with lords aplenty, but playing Reanimator, my game plan is still going to be primarily Griselbrand to race and win, maybe Elesh Norn to wipe out their TNN, or maybe Iona to cut them off it completely.

I expect Golgari Charm to see the most play, based simply on colors already being run, with Zealous Persecution as a close second. Decks that already run Massacre will continue to run it, especially if UW stoneblade is the TNN deck.

It'd be nice if simple board wipes got played again, though I know that's a dream.

[blacklotus3636]

I'm pretty sure you can assign any damage above the 1 toughness to the defending player. If he had an active jitte, subtract 4 from the damage.

Blacklotus3636, would you have been happier if he would've used the 3 mana to cast show and tell, and then proceed to draw 14 cards? It's a 3/1. I'm sorry your deck can't get rid of it, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be banned.

I'm sorry, do zealous persecution, toxic deluge, golgari charm, and engineered plague not all completely answer this guy?

Its not just 'my deck' that has a problem. I play many decks and unless you're combo you usually can't stop it because there are only a handful of cards in the format that kill it. All the cards you mentioned are also board cards at best. I really wish people would try to play against this card instead of just talking about how its not that strong. You don't ban a card because a cry baby says he can't deal with a card which is what you are accusing me of. You ban a card when it becomes the card you either play with or against in a format. Its only been legal for 10 days in 2 tournaments with 300 people and already in 3 of the 8 in top 8 and 2 of the top 8 in another. That should alarm anyone.

Griselbrand is definitely up there on the power curve. He's better than emrakul which is pretty scary considering what emrakul does. However, griselbrand is not top 8ing in large numbers even though he is widely played. This is the critical point to me. As I said, give it a few months or about 10 tournaments. If he's in 1 quarter to 1 half of the top 8's on average then you have compelling evidence for a ban. I'm going a step farther and saying it will happen but it needs time.

[Humphrey]

Whether or not TNN is op, people should stop calling for the banhammer before the meta has rebalanced.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Whether or not TNN is op, people should stop calling for the banhammer before the meta has rebalanced.

BUT OMG, It's not like we have people here calling for bans all the time. I mean they're usually right though, the format never corrects itself. 10 copies of TNN in top 8 = instapermaban obviously. /sarcasm

Seriously guys, if you care calling for a ban after one good event go play Standard.

[Humphrey]

Seriously guys, if you care calling for a ban after one good event go play Modern.

ftfy

[ESG]

As far as color pie discussion, just to recap the past few years ...

*
Alarm bells were going off in my head when the best creatures from INN were blue, cheaply costed, and some had hexproof: Delver, Snapcaster, Geist of Saint Traft, Invisible Stalker. Hexproof is such a horrible mechanic.

*Zac Hill: "I'll be real with you. We messed up with Snapcaster Mage."
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Fld%2F191

*
This would totally fit in red, why does it have to be blue? There are other colors in this game, right?

*
SCM should have been red. Delver should have been black. ... R&D needs to be printing consistent blue hosers every set, starting with Choke and Scald, then moving to Boil and Tsunami.

*Mark Rosewater:
"If I had made Snapcaster Mage from scratch, I would have made it a red card. Why is it blue? For one, I didn’t make it, it was designed by Tiago Chan, winner of the last Magic Invitational. Tiago made it blue and we tried to keep the card to his vision. I do wish I has asked him about changing it to red to see if the idea interested him."
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/23680242486/did-you-ever-consider-making-snapcaster-mage-red-or

*
A flying Nacatl that can be pitched to FoW and doesn't require a 3 color investment? It's leaps and bounds better than Nacatl, which until recently was the strongest one drop in the history of Magic. In blue. There are more Delvers in winning lists than there are Snapcasters since Innistrad's release. Delver is at least as responsible for Blue's recent surge as Snapcaster is.

*
Anyways, fuck Blue flying Wild Nacatls. Where is my RR for my 4/4 haste, trample guy? Maybe they'll print him later.

*
It's completely out of the color pie to give Blue a hyper aggressive creature that now allows Blue tempo decks to out-aggro Aggro decks.

*
That's why Notion Thief bothered me so much, a perfect example of a car that punishes blue's mains strength, and they print it in blue.

*
Except that "Blue has protection from non-color things" is an argument Maro pulled out of his ass, considering white has six times as many cards in that category. That's like arguing that they could print a blue Duress since Piracy Charm and Vendillion Clique are blue hand disruption. Or printing a blue Bolt because direct damage was always a blue thing, considering cards like Psionic Blast and Tim. Or a blue StP because Pongify is a thing. TNN should have never been printed in blue and has only been made to cater the blue crowd.

[rufus]

Anyways, fuck Blue flying Wild Nacatls. Where is my RR for my 4/4 haste, trample guy? Maybe they'll print him later.


If blue can have aggro creatures, why not give red some better stack manipulation?
How about a color-shifted Misdirection? It certainly fits in red's slice of the color pie. Or an alterantive-cost Fork that also hits triggered abilities to give red options against storm combo? Heck, a red Commandeer could be interesting.

[Lord Seth]

Seriously guys, if you care calling for a ban after one good event go play Standard.
Huh?

Standard bans are extremely rare and people generally don't ever ask for them. I don't get this.

Not to mention the fact that when cards are banned in Standard, it's after they've been shown to be abusive over a reasonable period of time. Sure, there was the Urza's block, but that's... the Urza's block.

[blacklotus3636]

BUT OMG, It's not like we have people here calling for bans all the time. I mean they're usually right though, the format never corrects itself. 10 copies of TNN in top 8 = instapermaban obviously. /sarcasm

Seriously guys, if you care calling for a ban after one good event go play Standard.

I don't appreciate the attitude but the substance is on the mark. I admit as most fair minded people would that there is insufficient evidence at this point to propose a banning. However, I have to say that waiting to make a decision on whether a card is busted after 2-3months is kind of like being captain hindsight. Sure skullclamp looks busted after you see it take half of the top8's for 3 months straight but making the call before hand is more difficult and fun. History suggests that almost all cards proposed for banning don't get banned because the format changes to handle them. It just depends on whether those changes lead to format warping. In this way both sides are really saying the same thing just in different degrees.

I think the one thing we can all agree on though is that this card is definitely one of the best creatures in the format. I was curious what everyone thought about true name nemesis vs. geist and clique for spots. I was talking to someone about it being different tools for different jobs but I was curious if anyone thinks true name nemesis will replace those guys wholesale.

[Dzra]

Him: land go
Me: land go
Him: land brainstorm
Me: Metalworker go
Him: true name go
Me: kuldotha forgemaster go
Him: play and equip jitte swing. I go to 17 go
Me: I play trinisphere and pass
Him: swing with jitted true name remove 2 counters. I go to 12. He reequips to the other untapped true name and passes. I blightsteel end step.
Me: swing with blue steel he takes 8 poison. 3 counters on jitte.
Him: swing for 12 next turn

While I don't particularly like True-Name Nemesis, I'm not sure that I really have a problem with this scenario. Is he just supposed to die to your Blightsteel because that is such a fair card? Nemesis's high power level was a big factor in him winning this game, but considering that he beat an effective 22 power trampler with two x/1s to kill you for exactsies the turn before you could lethal him speaks to me of pretty tight play on his part.

[(nameless one)]

Should have grabbed Steel Hellkite and nuked his board.

[Richard Cheese]

I don't appreciate the attitude but the substance is on the mark. I admit as most fair minded people would that there is insufficient evidence at this point to propose a banning. However, I have to say that waiting to make a decision on whether a card is busted after 2-3months is kind of like being captain hindsight. Sure skullclamp looks busted after you see it take half of the top8's for 3 months straight but making the call before hand is more difficult and fun. History suggests that almost all cards proposed for banning don't get banned because the format changes to handle them. It just depends on whether those changes lead to format warping. In this way both sides are really saying the same thing just in different degrees.

I think the one thing we can all agree on though is that this card is definitely one of the best creatures in the format. I was curious what everyone thought about true name nemesis vs. geist and clique for spots. I was talking to someone about it being different tools for different jobs but I was curious if anyone thinks true name nemesis will replace those guys wholesale.

I think it will have a similar impact as Delver, despite playing a slightly different role. TNN might be slightly lower just because of a more restrictive mana cost (notice it showing up as a 2 or 3-of most of the time). Does that kind of impact make it bannable? Probably not, honestly.

[blacklotus3636]

Should have grabbed Steel Hellkite and nuked his board.

You got me on that one. I tried getting a hellkite before the tournament but I couldn't buy him locally or trade for him in the last week because he's somewhat obscure and underplayed. That would have been the best play though. I mainly talked about that because its really a board state that normally wins the game.

Do you think this guy will replace clique or will decks that run clique run both?

[AngryTroll]

Do you think this guy will replace clique or will decks that run clique run both?

I haven't decided what I'm going to do in Team America yet. I run Tombstalkers in the maindeck and True-Name Nemesis competes for those two slots directly, but I'm not sure which card is going to end up getting that slot. TNN will not replace the Cliques in the sideboard for use against combo.

[Greenpoe]

If you target yourself, TNN combos with Pestilence. :cool:

[kirdie]

Do you have an estimate when the best time is to pick them up cheap?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Do you have an estimate when the best time is to pick them up cheap?

Right now most places are sold out of the Commander decks except for the shit one. As Christmas approaches they will start to restock. Also around Thanksgiving through Christmas tournaments die down and people start to spend money on presents for other people and travel expenses, so there is lower demand for singles and people who need extra money will dip into there stock and start moving singles so there is more demand. Thanksgiving through Christmas is the best time to buy any Magic singles IMO.

[dahcmai]

Speaking from the the salesman's point of view, Christmas is an amazing time to pick up cards. Selling is horrid at the time with the market flooded with people who need money to buy gifts with. I'd buy them just before and after Christmas when people have no cash or realize they spend too much and need to recoup. May and July are the sellers favorite months when everything is expensive. Just don't wait that long.

[joven]

I would buy that as an argument for True-Name Nemesis's ability only worked in multiplayer. The problem is that functionally speaking, in a 2-player game, True-Name Nemesis has protection from everything (actually, it's even better than that, but let's go with "protection from everything" for simplicity). Protection from everything is an ability that is certainly not Blue. Though it isn't White either, "protection from everything" is really something that requires the combined might of all 5 colors, as shown in Progenitus.

That's the issue. Functionally speaking, this isn't protection from something other than a color. In a 2-player game, it's functionally protection from everything... but even better!

I think even Progenitus with its 5 colors shouldn't have "Protection from everything". It's just dumb and noninteractive!



I'm sorry, do zealous persecution, toxic deluge, golgari charm, and engineered plague not all completely answer this guy?

I think, they're not good enough most of the time, except Toxic Deluge.



---
As a side note:
I think it is weird that Trample damage goes through Protection. Just read it in the rules. On the other hand it makes stupid uninteractive Protection a tiny bit weaker.

[Star|Scream]

I think even Progenitus with its 5 colors shouldn't have "Protection from everything". It's just dumb and noninteractive!




I think, they're not good enough most of the time, except Toxic Deluge.


Except for against Merfolk the -1/-1 is good as long as they don't have a jitte.

[PirateKing]

Except for against Merfolk the -1/-1 is good as long as they don't have a jitte.

Or, you know, a lord.

[from Cairo]

Except for against Merfolk the -1/-1 is good as long as they don't have a jitte.Or, you know, a lord.

Pretty sure the statement was intended to indicate "Excluding Merfolk..." rather than "Versus Merfolk..."

[PirateKing]

Pretty sure the statement was intended to indicate "Excluding Merfolk..." rather than "Versus Merfolk..."

Then accept my apology.

[Star|Scream]

Pretty sure the statement was intended to indicate "Excluding Merfolk..." rather than "Versus Merfolk..."

Yes. Sorry, what I meant to say was that -1/-1 cards are effective against TNN when he is in decks that are not named merfolk. I apologize for my shitty sentence structure.

[Lord Seth]

I think even Progenitus with its 5 colors shouldn't have "Protection from everything". It's just dumb and noninteractive!
Progenitus is fine, I think. In fact, I really like the card. He's got a very crippling cost that makes him fair. And even though almost no one who plays him actually pays his mana cost, you still have to do finagling to get him into play.

I actually think it's really cool to have a card that flat-out says "protection from everything." The problem is that something that mighty should be reserved for something like the 10-mana five-color Progenitus, not slapped onto a 3-mana one-color creature.

[joven]

Except for against Merfolk the -1/-1 is good as long as they don't have a jitte.

Well, if you have a TNN in play you really really want to put a jitte or a sword or something on him or at least a few Lords into play.
That he lays around with toughness 1 might happen, but probably not that often. So better not rely on simply -1/-1 against him. ;)

[Zombie]

Progenitus is fine, I think. In fact, I really like the card. He's got a very crippling cost that makes him fair. And even though almost no one who plays him actually pays his mana cost, you still have to do finagling to get him into play.

I actually think it's really cool to have a card that flat-out says "protection from everything." The problem is that something that mighty should be reserved for something like the 10-mana five-color Progenitus, not slapped onto a 3-mana one-color creature.

Not to mention that TNN's version is actually better, though not strictly.

[Star|Scream]

Well, if you have a TNN in play you really really want to put a jitte or a sword or something on him or at least a few Lords into play.
That he lays around with toughness 1 might happen, but probably not that often. So better not rely on simply -1/-1 against him. ;)

If they have resolved a TNN AND equipment/stoneforge, and after 2-3 turns you are still unable to deal with the equipment, haven't you already lost?

I was playing against D&T on Cockatrice and the other guy was like "How long do you think before they ban TNN?" I was like, are you really complaining about a 3 drop when you play D&T where you can port/waste/mangara my lands to smithereens and have fliers to go over him? I think people are really overhyping this card and should just try to play it to see what it really does. My TNN's die all the time--to Lili, to thoughtseize, to hymn, to daze, to reb, to zealous persecution!

[rufus]

...
I was playing against D&T on Cockatrice and the other guy was like "How long do you think before they ban TNN?"
...

It's a bit like delver in that regard. Not overpowering enough to get banned, but a terribly designed card that's strong enough to see competitive play.

[Lemnear]

It's a bit like delver in that regard. Not overpowering enough to get banned, but a terribly designed card that's strong enough to see competitive play.

Don't ban the card, ban the designer

[Zombie]

It's a bit like delver in that regard. Not overpowering enough to get banned, but a terribly designed card that's strong enough to see competitive play.

That is, a net loss for everyone. In money, in fun, in format variety.


Don't ban the card, ban the designer

Ban the card, shoot the designer with cannons.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Don't ban the card, ban the designer

Preach it.

Even though I'm going to be playing TNN and it seems like it may easily fit in with the cards I already play and it makes my deck better, I still dislike it. This just isn't a fun card and I don't understand why anyone at wotc would have thought it seemed like a good idea. I just have no faith in those people.

[TsumiBand]

Not to mention that TNN's version is actually better, though not strictly.

I think it's fair to say that any lines of play which involve the controller of a creature taking advantage of its protection to cast a spell that doesn't affect it, is marginal enough that it's worth the "strictly" bit.

Protection is DEBT, right; no Damage, no Enchantments, no Blocks, no Targets. There's only so many of these that protection allows you to turn on its head and actually bend the rules in your favor. Targeting your own creature is a thing, but typically it's with a sympathetic creature (Mother of Runes, etc) or an Equipment. Blocking is something that you can't really use to your advantage; yes you block the opponent's creature all day but you can't block your own creature if you control it, yeah? Enchantments exist in every color so you could jam one into a deck, but most of them are bad, typically because protection from color isn't all that hard to get around in this our beautiful format of duals and fetchlands. That leaves damage; when was the last time anyone played Holy Tommy Gun to great effect? If someone's sitting on a competitive White Weenie-splash-Red-for-Starstorm list, I want in on that mess. Otherwise it is a fringe line of play that is rarely useful.

Honestly, this kind of hair-splitting between when a card's mechanics are or are not "strictly better" than the other is not applied evenly or fairly enough from 'on high' in WotC -- it's starting to sound like a McGuffin. The first thing I think of is their stupid stance on Reverberate - it is not a reprint of Fork because it doesn't turn the spell Red, *but* it is "too close for comfort" so it won't be printed again. On the flipside, True-Name Nemesis offers a protection which, while not exactly "protection from color", pretty much undermines it completely because it is fundamentally more powerful in a 1v1 matchup - oh, but wait, you can't cast Earthquake and keep your guy, so it must not be strictly better, so it must be a fine Blue card. Rubbish. Something something shoulda been White something. Although the critics are probably equally right in saying that if it were White, no one would bother with it. It's because it's in a color that it doesn't seem to belong that people notice it, and because that color just happens to be the same color as Brainstorm and Force of Will, it garners a little too much attention.

whateveeeeer. :)

[Megadeus]

Side boarded 2 Golgari Charm and played Deluge in my board over Perish last night in anticipation of TNN... Didnt even play against it. On the other hand Golgari Charm isnt terrible vs Death and Taxes. And Deluge is good vs Blightsteel Collosus and Stell Hellkite + Kuldotha Forgemaster. So TNN being a card made my sideboard better!

[Humphrey]

They should just print

UUU
Sorcery
You win the game

[Octopusman]

They should just print

UUU
Sorcery
You win the game

They already did but it costs 2U.

[MaximumC]

They already did but it costs 2U.

Show and Tell has conditions, lots of em. Tinker is closer to instant win, but it's banned. Both can be answered if you are prepared.

The going price on "You Win" is currently set at 15 mana (Door to Nothingness).

[Einherjer]

So there is still room for improvement...

[TsumiBand]

They should just print

UUU
Sorcery
You win the game

Well they can't do that, because winning the game is in every color. They just have to do it slightly differently.

Palille's Edict UUUU
Instant

Shuffle all permanents and cards in hand an opponent controls into their owner's libraries. That opponent places their deck in the container it came in before the game started. Their life total becomes 0.

"I don't think I like you. Next." - Abraham Lincoln, to Batman

[PirateKing]

The going price on "You Win" is currently set at 15 mana (Door to Nothingness).

For that mana I could play Phage the Untouchable and still have mana left over for Reckless Charge and a Rogue's Passage activation.

[Star|Scream]

Well they can't do that, because winning the game is in every color. They just have to do it slightly differently.

Palille's Edict UUUU
Instant

Shuffle all permanents and cards in hand an opponent controls into their owner's libraries. That opponent places their deck in the container it came in before the game started. Their life total becomes 0.

"I don't think I like you. Next." - Abraham Lincoln, to Batman

If you could make it an enchantment so that it can be SNT for 2U that would be better.

[Barook]

They should just print

UUU
Sorcery
You win the game
Be careful what you wish for. They might be doing it in some form in the future because they decide that "winning is part of the blue color pie". After all, they already printed Omniscience.

[Lord Seth]

Be careful what you wish for. They might be doing it in some form in the future because they decide that "winning is part of the blue color pie". After all, they already printed Omniscience.
The insinuation here seems to be that Omniscience is not Blue, which seems odd to me. I don't see how it would make sense in any other color.

If you don't like Omniscience as a card, that's one thing, but it certainly is a Blue card.

[TsumiBand]

The insinuation here seems to be that Omniscience is not Blue, which seems odd to me. I don't see how it would make sense in any other color.

If you don't like Omniscience as a card, that's one thing, but it certainly is a Blue card.

So Omniscience has the same problems as "protection from a player", right? It may or may not be Blue, but that particular execution enables it to just blow alternatives out of the water.

Blue gets to "hack magic", both with a lowercase and capital M. So it's already just innately granted this leeway to do things to the game that other colors just aren't entitled to. Its rawest abilities tend to just enable plays in a more basic or funda--(I hesitate to say 'fundamental' again because wretched writing is bad mkay, but that's what it is)--mental way than the other colors.

It's like saying you're playing Hungry Hungry Hippos and you can only score points for the type of marble that you're 'entitled' to, by some weird hippo-color-identity rule -- like it's HHHEDH. If the hippos were bound to the rules of Magic colors, White would get the "righteous" ones, Black would get the "self-centered" ones, Red would get the "random" ones, Green would get the "natural" ones... and Blue would get the "round" ones.

I mean just being able to draw 'cards' and working well with 'card-drawing' should be clue enough that on the whole it needs to be carefully monitored. Blue innately just gets more game pieces than every other color. That tilts the odds in their favor a bit. But when these 'uber' spells come along and every color is like "hey cooooool I get to do something that's super in my skill set!" You get these things like Devout Invocation, which is like… flavorful and shit, your creatures bend the knee and pray for help or whatever... and sure yeah if you untap after a Devout Invocation for 5 or more, sure of course you probably win the game. Meanwhile though, since Blue just hacks the Gibson it pays six for Time Spiral and you're like, "Oh, well I … oh."

Thats one of my terrible useless hyperbole posts again, but w/e I'm out the door. Dogs to walk, wife to feed, etc etc. If you can't follow me after Hungry Hungry Hippos EDH… meh

[Barook]

The insinuation here seems to be that Omniscience is not Blue, which seems odd to me. I don't see how it would make sense in any other color.

If you don't like Omniscience as a card, that's one thing, but it certainly is a Blue card.
Omniscience is certainly blue.

I was talking about how stupid Omniscience as a concept is - which is already pretty close to "win the game" since it breaks one of the basic principles of Magic in half. Same goes for Enter the Infinite.

[Lord Seth]

Omniscience is certainly blue.

I was talking about how stupid Omniscience as a concept is - which is already pretty close to "win the game" since it breaks one of the basic principles of Magic in half. Same goes for Enter the Infinite.
I don't see how Enter the Infinite breaks any basic principles of Magic in half. "Pay a lot of mana and draw your deck" has existed since Alpha in the form of Braingeyser, and as recently in Return to Ravnica with Sphinx's Revelation. This isn't new. All Enter the Infinite really does is make it cheaper, but to compensate you have to pay the full 12 mana rather than have the opportunity to pay a lower amount if you want for a lesser effect.

Kinda like how you can draw a lot more cards with a Blue Sun's Zenith than an Inspiration, but to compensate you have to spend 5 mana with BSZ to do what Inspiration does for 4. The tradeoff with Enter the Infinite is that while you get greater power for its mana cost (12 mana to draw the deck is a lot cheaper than any "X mana to draw X cards" spell), it lacks the flexibility that something like Braingeyser offers.

I can understand why people complain about Omniscience--I don't agree, but I can understand it--but Enter the Infinite doesn't break principles of Magic any more than Braingeyser does.

[Erdvermampfa]

Frankly, I consider most of those complaints about how bad this card's design and wizards in general is as a bit insincere because I'm sure everyone here is aware that Wizards prints cards like TNN purposefully to make incentives for a wider playerbase and therefore are obliged to create stupidly overpowered stuff.

[Fatal]

@Lord Seth you are wrong Braingayser/Stroke etc had X in cost so it couldn't be cheated for example via Omni which Enter the Infinite can.

There was no other card printed before which allow player draw so many cards for so low cost (counting resources as mana only).

Anyway conclusion:
WotC printing some really unfun, non-interactive cards last tmes:
- Emrakul
- Griselbrand
- Omnisience
- Enter the Infinite
- and now True-Name Nemesis

They are overlay just bad as a concept which is against of Magic as a game idea - interaction between two players.

[Spaker]

They are overlay just bad as a concept which is against of Magic as a game idea - interaction between two players.

I totally agree.
TNN is not that unfair since he costs 1UU and there are many ways to somehow deal with it.
But, since it denies interactions between the players : it's a uninteresting card and it impoverishes the whole game. Therefore, I think it should be banned (just my opinion).

Regards

Spaker

[ESG]

I totally agree, Fatal. None of those cards should have been printed, and I would really love to hear an explanation from WOTC as to why those cards exist and what WOTC's vision of them was (if there was any forethought at all). Those are precisely the kind of massive instant-win bombs that hurt Legacy as a format. My view is that if WOTC designers want to print ridiculous stuff like that, they need to either tighten the restrictions (such as a wording that might say "Cannot enter the battlefield unless you actually paid the converted mana cost"), or increase the drawbacks of the card (such as Griselbrand making its controller lose half his or her life when it entered the battlefield), or they need to realize that other colors need some way to interact with those things outside of the stack. A lot of the time, it seems like WOTC's designers have never even played Eternal formats. I know this can't be true, because I know a number of people recently hired by WOTC, and they're great players who have definitely played at least Legacy, but it's awful to see a card like Enter the Infinite exist.

It's not acceptable to print cards like that and say, "Oh, it's OK because they have Force of Will to regulate things." WOTC totally bungled Mental Misstep, which I think was supposed to be a counterspell that other colors could play. Mindbreak Trap was a well-designed card. Deathrite Shaman was pushed a little too hard (really, why is it a 1/2 and not a 1/1, and why does it have three abilities when two would be fine?), but I'm glad it exists. We need real, playable, well-designed answers to things like Show and Tell and Griselbrand that aren't just counterspells. Given the stream of broken cards, I fully expect even more head-smackingly powerful cards in the future. True-Name Nemesis is going in the opposite direction of what I want for Legacy. This is yet another card that limits interaction between players, and protection from players is just absurd and even sounds stupid. How can this Merfolk have protection from essentially everything I could do? That makes no sense. It would have been very easy to word that card so that it fit in Commander and wouldn't dump on Legacy. Having to fight spells on the stack only really works for blue, and red blasts counter a few things but really aren't that good unless you are playing blue to amplify. For example, a Pyroblast just gets Forced by the combo deck, and then you're out of mana because they won the die roll and started out with a Lotus Petal and a Sol land. The Pyroblast is only really effective when you can Force back.

[PirateKing]

It would have been very easy to word that card so that it fit in Commander and wouldn't dump on Legacy.

As True-Name Nemesis enters the battlefield, name a legendary creature.
True-Name Nemesis has protection from players with the named creature as their Commander.

[Poron]

there have always been combo. 2 cards combo are the best possibile and OmniShow is a 3 cards combo.

Not that hot. What makes TNN (and SNT) big is its flexibility. You can pack it alongside a creature based deck (Merfolk, SFN decks) and win with it alone while the other player is busy nuking everything else.

With an equipped TNN you have just to held counter for his sweepers. What else?

[TsumiBand]

there have always been combo. 2 cards combo are the best possibile and OmniShow is a 3 cards combo.

Not that hot. What makes TNN (and SNT) big is its flexibility. You can pack it alongside a creature based deck (Merfolk, SFN decks) and win with it alone while the other player is busy nuking everything else.

With an equipped TNN you have just to held counter for his sweepers. What else?

Edicts maybe? It would be amazing if Barter in Blood because the next sleeper uncommon in Legacy, because I seem to have an overabundance.

But yeah, this is the reason that I am surprised not to see something like a Bant Stoneblade approach building around TNN. TNN makes spot removal bad; a turn 1 Noble Hierarch/turn 2 True-Name gives at least one out against the aforementioned Edict effect, as would Stoneforge Mystic and maybe even Squadron Hawk(?? is that guy still A Thing??) After that you just counter everything not named Supreme Verdict, and there's probably some silly answer for that too.

I mean you're still assembling Voltron to an extent and I'm certain you can get out-aggro'ed, but TNN on its own seems like one of the strongest pairings with an SFM package. Probably *the* best, actually.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Frankly, I consider most of those complaints about how bad this card's design and wizards in general is as a bit insincere because I'm sure everyone here is aware that Wizards prints cards like TNN purposefully to make incentives for a wider playerbase and therefore are obliged to create stupidly overpowered stuff.

I don't know what you're trying to imply here but I'm very sincere in my criticism of TNN. It is a boring card because it is so incredibly non-interactive. The only answers are counters and very narrow -1/-1 effects that people now only want to play because of this one new card. It isn't interesting in any way, it is only powerful.

[wcm8]

Barter in Blood will never be a thing because Damnation or even Toxic Deluge are simply better.

[TsumiBand]

Frankly, I consider most of those complaints about how bad this card's design and wizards in general is as a bit insincere because I'm sure everyone here is aware that Wizards prints cards like TNN purposefully to make incentives for a wider playerbase and therefore are obliged to create stupidly overpowered stuff.

I don't think the complaints are about its power level but the fact that it's yet another efficient weenie with a reasonable ability that just happens to poop on guys that exist outside the color when Blue isn't supposed to one-up those colors in this particular arena.

Something something, Nacatl < Delver, Snapcaster "should be Red instead", something something Geist of St Traft very aggro and non-interactive, reasons reasons, True-Name is the best protection knight ever but ohshit it's Blue not White, something.

For my part I try to followup as many of my conversations in this vein with "it's not OP it's just the wrong fscking color", but other people are more vocal about their estimate of its sheer power. It is, in fact, at least as non-interactive as Geist of Saint Traft and in many respects more so because it literally just doesn't give a fuck about a *ton* of effects in the game. -X/-X effects are so far the best things, that and uncounterable Wraths (of which there's like… the one). That's the biggest PITA about it, there is just not a lot of built-in answers to it, and it's like… wtf why does Islands get such a mid-boss creature at 3 mana? Should be getting weird little bastards like Ophidian or Voidmage Prodigy or whatever, not these uber-protection guys that can chump block and swing unblocked and can't be StPed and shit. I dunno, it's just conceptually more fucked-up than anything.


Barter in Blood will never be a thing because Damnation or even Toxic Deluge are simply better.

No I know, I was being an ass. :B I left my sarcastic font in another thread

[UnderwaterGuy]

As True-Name Nemesis enters the battlefield, name a legendary creature.
True-Name Nemesis has protection from players with the named creature as their Commander.

Good job. You've already proved yourself to be wotc's designers' superior.



For my part I try to followup as many of my conversations in this vein with "it's not OP it's just the wrong fscking color", but other people are more vocal about their estimate of its sheer power. It is, in fact, at least as non-interactive as Geist of Saint Traft and in many respects more so because it literally just doesn't give a fuck about a *ton* of effects in the game.

TNN wouldn't be any more fun or interactive if it had been printed in white. I really don't think the color is the problem with the card. White is a top tier color in legacy anyway.

[PirateKing]

Good job. You've already proved yourself to be wotc's designers' superior.

yey

I recall something not to long ago when Theros was being spoiled that MaRo and company half apologized for the state of the game, with Thragtusk and Thrun and Geist and Sigarda offering little no interaction between players, and that they were going to tone back on hexproof and stupid creatures in general. Then this.

[Octopusman]

As True-Name Nemesis enters the battlefield, name a legendary creature.
True-Name Nemesis has protection from players with the named creature as their Commander.

I love this.

Wish they'd errata saying the above was the intended design of the card.

[joven]

Don't ban the card, ban the designer

Ban the damn card! In my opinion the ban list is there for correcting design error. Why not use it? TNN was never meant for two player magic, so let's get rid of it!
I'm still almost sure it will happen soon ...

[Phoenix Ignition]

I love this.

Wish they'd errata saying the above was the intended design of the card.

Or just ban it. It's effectively the same thing, except you won't get new people entering the format confused as to why their TNN deck doesn't work as expected.

[joretapo]

I might say that TNN encourages a LOT of interactions between players ...

. outside the game

Now i like powerfull cards that crush my opponents. I think the metagame will adapt, i play storm and uxyz blade with nemesis and as stated multiple times TNN is by far inferior to clique in this case

[troopatroop]

It's just such a beating if you're playing fair. I don't think they can ban the card, it's not too strong for Legacy. It is ridiculous, though.

At least rounds won't ever go to time now!

[Humphrey]

Ban the damn card! In my opinion the ban list is there for correcting design error. Why not use it? TNN was never meant for two player magic, so let's get rid of it!
I'm still almost sure it will happen soon ...

Probably after all commanderdecks are sold out :laugh:

[Lord Seth]

@Lord Seth you are wrong Braingayser/Stroke etc had X in cost so it couldn't be cheated for example via Omni which Enter the Infinite can.
But that's still besides the point. You've been able to draw your deck since Alpha if you had enough mana, just like Enter the Infinite. Functionally it does nothing that hasn't been done multiple times before, Enter the Infinite just happens to have a strong combination with something else. It's kinda like Millstone and Grindstone, they serve basically the same function but one happens to have a killer combo with Painter's Servant.


There was no other card printed before which allow player draw so many cards for so low cost (counting resources as mana only).
Yes, but as I pointed out, what it gains in power-for-its-mana-cost (12 mana to draw maybe 40 cards versus the 42 mana Braingeyser requires) is compensated for its lack of flexibility, namely the fact you can't cast it for less for a lesser effect. Even if you think the lack of flexibility is not enough to compensate and it should've cost more mana, that's a completely separate issue. There's no basic principles of Magic being violated here.


Anyway conclusion:
WotC printing some really unfun, non-interactive cards last tmes:
- Emrakul
- Griselbrand
- Omnisience
- Enter the Infinite
- and now True-Name Nemesis

They are overlay just bad as a concept which is against of Magic as a game idea - interaction between two players.
And 4 of those cards have prohibitively high mana costs that make them fairly balanced (with the exception of True-Name Nemesis). I think you should be able to do some pretty broken stuff if you get that kind of mana at your disposal.

The actual issue Legacy players have is Show and Tell, without which those mana costs would be a lot more relevant.

I offer no defense for True-Name Nemesis. My opinion of it has consistently been it should only work in multiplayer. But I guess that would sell fewer packs.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I offer no defense for True-Name Nemesis. My opinion of it has consistently been it should only work in multiplayer. But I guess that would sell fewer packs.

Design-wise yes, TNN is lazy, but here's my defense on why it won't break Legacy...

Some people like to look at Legacy like it's a collection of fair and semi fair decks, this isn't the situation and never will be.

Legacy is basically a random assortment of everything that's come to pass since the inception of Magic rolled into one. It's the most fair decks vs. semi fair decks vs. completely unfair decks. For a while recently Legacy was defined by fairish decks, and that's fine but we've always been aware that unfair decks exist and must be accounted for. Now Legacy has a card that is going to be hot for a minute that is the jam vs. fair decks but sucks vs. unfair decks, like completely sucks. The best comparison for TNN vs. combo is V Cliche is to TNN what Thalia is to Grizzly Bear vs unfair decks. For a long time combo was underrepresented (Mental Misstep era anyone?), now I feel we are in a period where fair decks are at a disadvantage. What happens next is most likely a shift to semi-fair decks, where you still have a 50%ish game vs. decks that are fair but meta'd vs. unfair decks and a 50%ish game vs. unfair decks. As this shift becomes more pronounced the power of TNN grows (Because TNN is pretty good vs. semi fair and fair decks, and the semi-fair decks which prey on combo will grow in popularity). As people start to view this as a weakness in the metagame the balance shifts back to unfair decks.

This is the same reason I can reasonably play Humans in Vintage. If people weren't expecting 4x Force of Will + 4x or more other counter Magic or 12x Spheres Humans would be a losing proposition always, the same way if people weren't going into a Legacy tourney expecting 4x Force of Will, ANT wouldn't run a bunch of discard and would win on turn 2 much for often. TNN is a metagame factor to be sure. Should every SERIOUS Legacy player have 4x in their collection, absolutely. Does TNN "Warp" the meta, yeah but not as much as Delver. Is TNN ban worthy? No, it's a metagame weapon vs. semi-fair and some fair decks, but it basically is a whiff vs. 1/3 of the expected meta. If anything TNN is a weapon for combo decks, a psychological weapon. By you preparing for a card 1/3 of the theoretical metagame doesn't give a fuck about, it gives that cross-section of decks an advantage vs. you and the people running that card. If there was a blind pick deck right now in Legacy it would be either RUG which can capitalize on the slow pace of TNN or combo in general for the same reason.

If you really think about it a Legacy (or any) Magic tournament is won or lost before you even register for the event in that's it's all in selecting the proper deck, the rest is just playing optimally.

[Zombie]

The problem is the shitty gameplay. I play combo. I won't lose more because of the card. But it makes fair Magic less interesting and more uninteractive.

[Megadeus]

Design-wise yes, TNN is lazy, but here's my defense on why it won't break Legacy...

Some people like to look at Legacy like it's a collection of fair and semi fair decks, this isn't the situation and never will be.

Legacy is basically a random assortment of everything that's come to pass since the inception of Magic rolled into one. It's the most fair decks vs. semi fair decks vs. completely unfair decks. For a while recently Legacy was defined by fairish decks, and that's fine but we've always been aware that unfair decks exist and must be accounted for. Now Legacy has a card that is going to be hot for a minute that is the jam vs. fair decks but sucks vs. unfair decks, like completely sucks. The best comparison for TNN vs. combo is V Cliche is to TNN what Thalia is to Grizzly Bear vs unfair decks. For a long time combo was underrepresented (Mental Misstep era anyone?), now I feel we are in a period where fair decks are at a disadvantage. What happens next is most likely a shift to semi-fair decks, where you still have a 50%ish game vs. decks that are fair but meta'd vs. unfair decks and a 50%ish game vs. unfair decks. As this shift becomes more pronounced the power of TNN grows (Because TNN is pretty good vs. semi fair and fair decks, and the semi-fair decks which prey on combo will grow in popularity). As people start to view this as a weakness in the metagame the balance shifts back to unfair decks.

This is the same reason I can reasonably play Humans in Vintage. If people weren't expecting 4x Force of Will + 4x or more other counter Magic or 12x Spheres Humans would be a losing proposition always, the same way if people weren't going into a Legacy tourney expecting 4x Force of Will, ANT wouldn't run a bunch of discard and would win on turn 2 much for often. TNN is a metagame factor to be sure. Should every SERIOUS Legacy player have 4x in their collection, absolutely. Does TNN "Warp" the meta, yeah but not as much as Delver. Is TNN ban worthy? No, it's a metagame weapon vs. semi-fair and some fair decks, but it basically is a whiff vs. 1/3 of the expected meta. If anything TNN is a weapon for combo decks, a psychological weapon. By you preparing for a card 1/3 of the theoretical metagame doesn't give a fuck about, it gives that cross-section of decks an advantage vs. you and the people running that card. If there was a blind pick deck right now in Legacy it would be either RUG which can capitalize on the slow pace of TNN or combo in general for the same reason.

If you really think about it a Legacy (or any) Magic tournament is won or lost before you even register for the event in that's it's all in selecting the proper deck, the rest is just playing optimally.
This. I play 4 color loam. Obviously my combo MU isn't amazing, but I have a shot. I play a Teeg in the board to bring in as a GSZ target. But since TNN I wanted to have a bit better game vs him, so I took out Teeg from my board, weakening my post board combo MU slightly so that I would have a better post board MU vs TNN decks.

That said, I still hate the card and everything that it stands for

[ESG]

For a long time combo was underrepresented (Mental Misstep era anyone?)

I disagree with this. The majority of my losses during that period were to Reanimator (flush with its new Jin-Gitaxias) and Hive Mind. NO RUG was control/combo. NO Show was combo. Painter-Stone was combo. Mental Misstep suppressed some combo decks and strengthened others.

[Fatal]

Embrassing half-final on Washington DC GP - Just TNN vs 2 TNN race.. guess who wins, other to decks are combo (Dredge and Sneak) Sneak passes.


So basically looks like we have 2 types of decks - TNN including and combo XD

[Wanderlust]

Embrassing half-final on Washington DC GP

Yeah that game was a total joke. Proof of the terribleness of TNN's design.

[catmint]

Well RUG does not play nemesis yet...
But I guess the people saying that nemesis is not format warping will be more quiet.

[Fatal]

No RUG in top8 - which can lead to a fact about TNN.

[Barook]

No RUG in top8 - which can lead to a fact about TNN.
How so? RUG has massive problems against a resolved RiP - something UWR Delver doesn't really care about.

That one game of BUG Shardless vs Esper Stoneblade was a good indicator for the ridiculous powerlevel of TNN - the BUG player had an insane board position and still almost lost to 2x TNN if he hadn't found his Golgari Charm in time.

I'm more suprised we aren't see more Toxic Deluge yet.

Edit: People who are saying that you can race it: The problem isn't a single TNN, but when the second one hits the board. One can easily beat you down while the other one is on blocking duty until you can swing for lethal.

[HammafistRoob]

No RUG in top8 - which can lead to a fact about TNN.

Except for the fact that there was two RUG decks in the top 16, of a 1698 player event...

[(nameless one)]

Except for the fact that there was two RUG decks in the top 16, of a 1698 player event...

Where do you get the top16?

Was there a list?

[HammafistRoob]

I'm too lazy to post a link. Just google Grand Prix Washington top 8 and you'll also find the top 16.

EDIT- Okay fine.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/welcome

EDIT2- Congratz Mr. Signorini (nitewolf9), goin bigtime I see.

[(nameless one)]

I'm too lazy to post a link. Just google Grand Prix Washington top 8 and you'll also find the top 16.

EDIT- Okay fine.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/welcome


I just saw it. I swear it wasnt there half hour ago.

Thanks!

[Tormod]

Glenn McIelwain (plays at my LGS) finished with 39 points (13-2), (outside of top 8 on tie breaks) was playing RUG, his performance earned him a ticket to PTBNG. I think there were 4 players that were 13-2 that didn't top 8, that all got PT invites.

[Lord Seth]

Except for the fact that there was two RUG decks in the top 16, of a 1698 player event...
Especially considering that some of those decks in the Top 16 had the same record as decks in the Top 8, and the only difference was tiebreakers. Places 4 through 11 all had the same number of points after the final round.

By the way, those two RUG Delver decks were #10 and #11 (#9 was BUG Delver).

[dontbiteitholmes]

Anyone got Hatfield's list. I'm guessing it was similar to the top16 BUG list. I was discussing deck options with a friend who went and suggested a list similar to that with Tombstalker and no TNN. He ended up settling on RUG Delver and day 2'd then fizzled out.

[warfordium]

according to the TA thread, Hatfield was on the same list as Nitewolf (aka Dan Signorini): http://www.wizards.com/magic/samplehand.asp?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/welcome&decknum=1

[Griselpuff]

Actually, Team Curio TA players all played slightly different TA lists. They were probably 70-73 of the same 75. We had disagreements about Pithing Needle, Stifle, Nature's Claim, Seal of Primodium and Krosan Grip. All of us wanted to play Tombstalker and laugh at TNNs (and play Golgari Charm).

[joven]

Design-wise yes, TNN is lazy, but here's my defense on why it won't break Legacy...


I think it actually doesn't matter if it breaks Legacy or not. It's a shitty stupid card. It's ass in the face of every magic player. It has to go.

[Tylert]

Embrassing half-final on Washington DC GP - Just TNN vs 2 TNN race.. guess who wins, other to decks are combo (Dredge and Sneak) Sneak passes.


So basically looks like we have 2 types of decks - TNN including and combo XD

D&T would like to have a word with you. it's neither of these decks and finished first of the swiss...

[Megadeus]

I think it actually doesn't matter if it breaks Legacy or not. It's a shitty stupid card. It's ass in the face of every magic player. It has to go.

This. It's not that it is unbeatable, though it odds difficult to beat, it is just stupid in principle.

[Dice_Box]

D&T would like to have a word with you. it's neither of these decks and finished first of the swiss...

DnT can say what it likes. I dropped a True-Name in front of a DnT player locally last week. He near on cried because there was Fuck all he could do about it.

[Cire]

So are Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Toxic Deluge and Engineered Plague Main Deck-able now?

[theBloody]

If your meta say so.