[Deck] U/B DelverTempo

[troopatroop]

I remember days when I feared Sinkhole more than any card. The sheer power of LD for 2 mana shocked me to my shoes, and I always had to consider if my hand could survive a Sinkhole and Wasteland in my meta. Lately this card has fallen out of favor, but an angel may have just fallen to save it. True-Name Nemesis is a real boss on the board, finishing reliably and blocking robustly. He's exactly the thing to fix U/B, where Delver was never truly enough alone, and I think he rewards a disruptive gameplan.


3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sinkhole
3 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire


I don't think the list is perfect yet, but I think it's mostly correct. True-Name Nemesis takes pressure off other cards to always perform, simply because it always does itself. You've gotta think about what that does for the other cards in your deck, and how to approach that in deckbuilding. This deck aims to disrupt 100%, harder than any deck in the format, through Stifle/Waste/Sinkhole. Hopefully after finding success in that, we either bury them with Confidant and Snapcaster, or kill them with evasive lightning bolts. Deathrite Shaman is terrific in a LD deck like this, because it compounds the advantage we're aiming for, and accelerates perfectly. 2 Disfigure is risky, but I'm taking the chance. I need it to stop so much at 1cc and 2cc (Lackey,Grim,Deathrite,Noble,Mom). The curve on this deck is so low that it only runs 20 lands, leaving room for 25 spells, and 15 creatures. Dark Confidant plays very nicely with Sinkhole, as does a turn 1 Delver. I can run down so many ridiculous lines of play, because the deck is super consistent in what it's trying to do. You're in 2 colors, and you have everything you need there.

Obviously it's not all sunshine and roses, but it's as strong as I've seen U/B in ages. True-Name Nemesis is really special, a blocker we sorely needed.

4 Sink/4 Waste/3 Stifle makes 11 LD cards. That's 13 with Snapcasters, so over half of what most decks run in lands total!

I think Sinkhole/Stifle/Deathrite + Wasteland is precisely what True-Name Nemesis wants. Mana advantage removes the 3cc drawback inherant in Nemesis. So, LD stalls the game, and evasion dudes clean up.

This color scheme has recieved alot of love from wizards lately, that's for sure...

[tsabo_tavoc]

Dark Confidant just draws removals, and Deathrite Shaman is better at it. Also, I'd play Lilliana instead of Edict.

[uncletiggy]

Stifle seems better then hymn and far more flexible and tempo oriented

[alohazendo]

I would definitely test heavily with Stifle and Liliana before writing them off. Liliana can just win, and a well timed Stifle can even turn an opposing True-Name Nemesis into an expensive bear. Like the list, and I respect the valiant effort to bring back Sinkhole.

[troopatroop]

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Sinkhole
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Stifle

4 Wasteland

4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire

Changed the list to support Stifle, and wow does it improve the deck. When things go right, your opponent can't do anything, and your Confidants just draw more LD. I can't believe I tried to run Sinkhole without it before! xD

[Star|Scream]

I would definitely test heavily with Stifle and Liliana before writing them off. Liliana can just win, and a well timed Stifle can even turn an opposing True-Name Nemesis into an expensive bear. Like the list, and I respect the valiant effort to bring back Sinkhole.

How can a stifle turn TNN into a 2/2 bear?

[troopatroop]

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sinkhole
3 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire


New and improved list, Updating the OP with more info.

[KobeBryan]

I would definitely test heavily with Stifle and Liliana before writing them off. Liliana can just win, and a well timed Stifle can even turn an opposing True-Name Nemesis into an expensive bear. Like the list, and I respect the valiant effort to bring back Sinkhole.

unfortunately you can't. its not an activated or triggered ability.

[pandaman]

I and my Beta Sinkholes endorse this thread. There was an Esper LD list I played a while ago which might provide some food for your thoughts:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7402&iddeck=53861

Nowhere near as tempo as where you're taking this, and also before Deathrite Shaman, but it shows that LD can be effective if given heavy focus.

Good luck!

[thefreakaccident]

I and my Beta Sinkholes endorse this thread. There was an Esper LD list I played a while ago which might provide some food for your thoughts:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7402&iddeck=53861

Nowhere near as tempo as where you're taking this, and also before Deathrite Shaman, but it shows that LD can be effective if given heavy focus.

Good luck!

Dunno how that deck was able to run both hymm and sinkhole with that manabase... It seems unreliable.

[pjetr0]

One observation from testing very similiar build, all comon tempo decks (RUG, BURG, UWR) have ultimate answer vs sinkhole in main already, daze. Sinkhole is useless most of the time against these decks.

[Piceli89]

Sinkhole is useless most of the time against these decks.

Sinkhole is useless in this format in 2013. That's a proven and estabilished fact, and one should abandon completely nostalgia and let it go. A card devoted to destroy a land is silly when for the same mana you can play a super-efficient creature or use those to combo your opponent off. There's a reason why it was dropped early in 2010, and TNN won't be the reason it could be viable again.

[troopatroop]

Sinkhole is better than Stoneforge Mystic against the Combo that runs rampant in our format? It's better than Tarmogoyf after your opponent mulligans, and I don't think the card has BEEN properly re-evaluated. That being said, you're pretty much correct. What about Hymn to Tourach instead? It's equally strong against combo, sucks pretty hard topdecking it, but then again so does Sinkhole.

[JanoschEausH]

How about including Phyrexian Dreadnought in this list? You're playing Stifle and you're following a tempo plan. Seems like it would fit in here.

[Illusions]

I think this deck is a lot stronger than people are giving it credit for. I was messing around with a UB delver deck based on an old Sam Black list, but it didn't quite have the punch to get there in the end. I think TNN changes that, and going the hardcore land destruction route with DRS seems like a winning strategy. I like your list, though I made a few changes that I wanted to test out:


3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Phantasmal Image
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Sinkhole
4 Stifle

3 Wasteland
1 Voltrath's Stronghold
4 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest


I took out the Dark Confidants in part because I don't have them, and because I'm wary of Bob with Force of Will, though that could be incorrect. I also put shadow of doubt in there as an experiment, and upped stifle to 4, and sinkhole to 3. The reason for this was that stifle is cheaper and more versatile, whereas sinkhole has a greater chance of sitting in your hand and doing nothing. Phantasmal Image is hilarious with TNN, and the land hate package makes DRS into a complete nightmare. That said, I'm thinking of going up to the full compliment of snapcasters by taking out the Phantasmals, and maybe taking out the shadow of doubt to add a third TNN, and a 19th land; 18 seems a bit cheeky, and I think 3 TNN is really where this deck wants to be. It might even be worthwhile going 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 4 snapcasters, 3 TNN, and cutting a ponder.

Another route that might be worth exploring is BUG, by pulling the snapcasters, and adding 4 nimble mongoose, replacing dismember with abrupt decay, and adding 2 life from the loam for the wasteland lock. I don't think adding Phyrexian Dreadnought to the deck is a good idea, since it's a two card combo that is easily disrupted, and occasionally leads to you having dead cards. What's more, I don't feel like the deck really needs it.

[Cire]

If you want more LD, why not splash green and run Restore which basically reads "ramp up your mana unless there is a wasteland in a players graveyard, if so destroy target non basic land. Splashing green also allows you to run abrupt decay which is amazing.

I have the following list in mind

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Restore
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
3 Restore
3 Ponder

4 Wasteland
14 Lands.

Obviously 3 colors and only 14 colored lands is a bit wonky. . but that is currently what I'm testing - the occasional first turn stifle, second turn Waste third turn Restore - Waste are brutal.

[Zilla]

I'm pro green splash as well, but after some testing, I feel like there are very very few situations where I draw TNN that I wouldn't be happier if it was Tarmogoyf. 3cc in a deck with this tight a manabase is pretty awkward. In most cases, by the time I'm resolving it, the game is basically decided. It's either win more or it doesn't get me there. The only upside to it, in my opinion, is that it pitches to FoW, which seems like a really bad reason to run it.

TNN's a great card, but I think it's going to be a lot stronger in a shell that takes better advantage of it by bolstering it with equipment. Or Unstable Mutations. Because Unstable Mutation is awesome.

The list I'm testing at the moment is:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
9 Fetch
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou

[Illusions]

my current list is looking like this:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
2 Disfigure
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Stifle
3 Sinkhole

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

18 Lands (4 wastelands)


DRS is a house, if he's left on the board, you're automatically in a commanding position. Even if he gets removed, every single one of your creatures is a threat that absolutely needs to be answered, and with sinkhole, you disrupt land better than any other delver deck. Where the deck falls down is against strategies that rely on basic lands, since this turns off most of your land hate. That said, this is true of any delver deck. Tombstalker gets hit hard by RIP, but you can still rely on your other threats, and shuffle him away with brainstorm. If he lands, your opponent is in trouble. Same with TNN, which just keep on trucking through whatever your opponent has on the board.

DRS is really the glue that keeps the whole thing together. As long as he's alive, you can ramp out your TNN and still have mana to disrupt your opponent. Once you've established board position, he helps you burn down your opponent at a pretty astonishing rate. I'm still tossing up over whether I want the snapcasters or the tombstalkers. Snaps seem better against spell-based decks, but they're easier to answer on the board, and don't provide a clock on their own. Stalkers are more dangerous and harder to answer, since they beat down in the air. I'm thinking the more aggressive route is probably better.

[Juice11]

This is what I've been trying out. I'm thinking about testing it out at a local tournament.

4 Baleful Strix
2 TNN
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize


2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

[troopatroop]

I like that list alot. Baleful Strix is far from bad, I like that it cantrips. It's like our Silvergill Adept. Seems strong with Liliana.

0 Deathrite shaman tho... I think that's hard to justify. Especially with Liliana in your deck to curve into, although i understand it's mediocre with Stifle.

[HammafistRoob]

I like Zillas list a lot, except for the Hymns. Discard just doesn't make sense when you can blow up all the lands and sit pretty behing Daze and Pierce. I'm not so sure if TNN is really that great here either, and agree with Zilla that Goyf is just superior.

Surgical Extraction definitely gets the nod for gy hate of choice in the 'board, I would also play at least 3 Snapcaster.

[troopatroop]

I just like TNN more as a 3 drop. Snapcaster is nice, but he's a 2/1 body. This deck need resilient evasive creatures,Tombstalker is a better 3drop also.

[Juice11]

I like that list alot. Baleful Strix is far from bad, I like that it cantrips. It's like our Silvergill Adept. Seems strong with Liliana

Thanks, I really like the idea of UB delver. To be honest, I don't own any goyfs which is why I really want to make a UB version of delver that works well. If we can have just as many threats and disruption as the tri color delvers without the greedy mana bases they have I think we can develop a pretty good deck here. The way I see it we have access to the best 2 LD cards in the format (not to mention stifle shenanigans). We have access to the two best discard options. There is a stable mana base. We also have strong threats like TNN and Tombstalker. Strix is a beast against any large creatures, especially answering goyf and making reanimator think twice about attacking with griselbrand. Liliana is a great option at a 3 drop, and if you want more power, you could even consider adding a JTMS.


I'm considering doing something with adding death's shadow and possibly a snuff out/watery grave or 2 to help with the shadow. I think the list is pretty decent threat-wise without them though, Tombstalker is a beast.

I also see some value in a volrath's stronghold or Creeping tar pit as additional lands and Phantasmal image or Main Deck Vendilion cliques/snapcaster mages as added disruption.

I would like to add a ponder or 2 also, but I can't figure out what to cut. Maybe dismember and a daze. I find daze to be pretty underwhelming any time after turn 4 and it is usually just something I pitch to FOW. Any suggestions for a replacement (or an argument to keep it in)

In my humble opinion, I really don't feel the need for deathrite shaman in this list. It kind of kills the tempo of the deck not to mention having to add a bayou or two and streatching the mana base thinner. If I'm going to add green to the list I might as well just play abrupt decays and buy some goyfs and call it bug delver.

I'd much rather thoughtseize or leave land open for stifle or play a delver that can possibly swing for 3 next turn. Turn two is really my bread and butter anyway. I don't wan't to have to leave land open for deathrite when I can either hymn, play sinkhole, or play strix and cantrip and have something to combat a goyf. Of I could ponder/brianstorm and leave one open for stifle or drop a delver. I just feel like not playing deathrite leaves much more options than actually playing him. I do think he is very useful mid to late game however.

What are people considering for a sideboard:

submerge, pithing needle, Vendilion clique, snapcaster, an extra TNN or Tombstalker, tormod's crypt, spell peirce, disfigure, maybe flusterstorm. Not sure yet.


Thoughts/ideas are greatly appreciated.

[HammafistRoob]

Tombstalker is a great card, but Bob is just better in most cases. You could probably play one 'Stalker with four Bobs and be fine.

Snappy isn't there for the body, it's the utility he offers. I see no reason to not play green though. It gives you Goyf, Decay, and Shamans lifegain ability which is pretty relevant against Reanimator and Dredge.

I'd start here if I were to play this-

//LANDS-19
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

//CREATURES-16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage

//SPELLS-25
4 Stifle
3 Sinkhole
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay


EDIT-Derp forgot the Delvers....

Also, I fail to see how DRS kills the tempo of the deck. It virtually gets you ahead on land drops and pings for damage later on.

[Juice11]

Tombstalker is a great card, but Bob is just better in most cases. You could probably play one 'Stalker with four Bobs and be fine.

Snappy isn't there for the body, it's the utility he offers. I see no reason to not play green though. It gives you Goyf, Decay, and Shamans lifegain ability which is pretty relevant against Reanimator and Dredge.

Also, I fail to see how DRS kills the tempo of the deck. It virtually gets you ahead on land drops and pings for damage later on.

The reason not to play green is that this isn't bug delver, I think it has a separate thread. Of course we could play green, but that's not the point I thought. Your list looks really good, but it's basically bug delver with sinkholes.

I see your point about DRS and maybe killing the tempo is not the right way to say it, but it doesn't actually get you ahead on land drops and pinging late game isn't really what I want to do, I would prefer to drop a TNN or stalker and use that as a win con. Also, I would prefer to try not to splash green. The deck is pretty strong without it. I would consider running DRS using just the black and mana ability or maybe add just one bayou.


For your list, I would add a bayou or 2 instead of the 3 trops because sinkhole is a BB drop that you will want to play on T2 and the 2 bayous will give you a better chance to do that.


Just my 2 cents.

[Illusions]

I'm pretty happy with how my most recent list plays, I got a bunch of testing in today, and it felt pretty smooth. I had a mull to 6 that turned out disgusting; I accelerated into two TNN off the back of a DRS, and went to town. Second game I dropped a stalker and mopped up after controlling my opponent's mana, and pinging with DRS. Delver was consistently removed, but the elf tends to stay around, making it a better turn 1 play. I might add 1 bayou so that I can exile reanimator targets with DRS, but other than that, I haven't had a game where I felt outclassed, and I'm pretty happy with just playing UB. Sometimes they hit mana consistently, and you don't draw into your LD, but you can usually slow them down enough during the early game to establish dominance with your superior threats.

So far I've played against belcher, UWR delver, BUG control, enchantress, D&T, reanimator, and it's performed pretty well. In my opinion, DRS is absolutely essential if you want to run TNN in a tempo deck, since it makes the mana so much better, and provides excellent support for your airborne and unblockable threats once you get into the midgame. That extra turn of acceleration lets you put so much more pressure on your opponent, and lets you go down to 18 lands pretty comfortably. More importantly, it accelerates you while slowing your opponent down.

With creatures, we really want the necessary 25+ spells to flip delver; personally, I think 27-29 is about the right number, but then, I tend to have poor luck on blind flips (I drew 8 land in a row in one game today, though I managed to win off the back of a sinkhole and wasteland on a manascrewed opponent). I also run a singleton creeping tarpit, which is cheeky given how lean the mana is, but hasn't caused *too* many problems so far, and has been a benefit in some matchups. I might remove it if it starts to noticeably cost me games.

Edit: Also, I'm not sure that goyf is necessarily what you want in this deck; TS goes straight over the top for 5, giving you the ability to completely ignore ground-based threats.

[Kowitz]

This deck seems really interesting! I might test it out.

[grixis]

new list with nemesis and deathrite

=> can you give me advice ?

ps : dont care about manabase and side (it's test)

3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Diabolic edict
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp


SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

[Illusions]

new list with nemesis and deathrite

=> can you give me advice ?

ps : dont care about manabase and side (it's test)

3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Diabolic edict
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp


SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

I think you should be running 4 DRS, since the acceleration is what makes casting TNN viable in this kind of deck, and makes you more resilient to land hate. Also, I don't think bob, snaps and young pyro are really doing much for you. Bob is awesome card advantage, but in a tempo deck, it's often better to just drop a threat that can win the game on its own, rather than drawing more cards. Bob doesn't really do that, and (IMO) is better in midrange lists that aim to pull ahead on cards. The same goes for YP; I think his real home is likely to be in a midrange list that abuses his ability to crap out tokens. The synergy with Cabal Therapy and Probe is awesome, and I ran it myself for a little while, but I eventually found that a hardcore mana denial and disruption strategy was more effective, the reason being that hand destruction won't stop your one threat from being removed.

Slim your creature suite down to the 11-13 most essential threats; if you want to go grixis, i would stick with DRS, Delver, maybe TNN, and toss up between either tombstalker or grim lavamancer. You probably don't want both due to the anti-synergy between the two cards, but TS will help you close out games, whereas lavamancer will help you dominate the field. Bob isn't much use since he doesn't attack, and is an extra card that won't flip delver, and the same goes for YP. Also, I would cut the probes and go up to 4 ponders; whether or not you include stifle is up to you, though I personally like to keep it around to exile suspended ancestrals, and stop liliana from edicting my TNN.

At this stage, you have a bunch of flex slots that you can fill out how you like. You can include chain lightning for the additional reach with lightning bolt, edicts, dismember, spell pierce, hymn, etc. I suspect that if you had a bunch of bolt effects with DRS, TNN and Delver, the deck would be pretty scary. Also consider spell pierce, it's one of the best counters in the format right now, and only gets better with wasteland (which your list probably does need, if only to keep from getting dominated by punishing fire decks, and to slow down combo decks like reanimator).

[klaus]

This is what I've been trying out. I'm thinking about testing it out at a local tournament.

4 Baleful Strix
2 TNN
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize


2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Tombstalker and Delver would like to see some Ponders in there. Baleful Strix is OK, though only really good, if run alongside equipment, actually it doesn't fit a tempo scheme at all imo. Also: -1 Island, -1 Swamp, + 1 Bloodstained Mire, +1 Marshflats/Tarn. This not only makes it easier obtaining UU/BB, but also is a nice way of getting cards in the yard, being able to shuffle away BS cards, enhancing Ponders AND Delvers - you can, reveal, pump him and then fetch shuffle and draw another card.

That's how I'd adjust it:

3 TNN
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker

1 Liliana of the veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

[Illusions]

Tombstalker and Delver would like to see some Ponders in there. Baleful Strix is OK, though only really good, if run alongside equipment, actually it doesn't fit a tempo scheme at all imo. Also: -1 Island, -1 Swamp, + 1 Bloodstained Mire, +1 Marshflats/Tarn. This not only makes it easier obtaining UU/BB, but also is a nice way of getting cards in the yard, being able to shuffle away BS cards, enhancing Ponders AND Delvers - you can, reveal, pump him and then fetch shuffle and draw another card.

That's how I'd adjust it:

3 TNN
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker

1 Liliana of the veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Seems like a decent list, though I'm not sure if thoughtseize is what you want as a tempo deck. I think I would change them to an extra spell pierce, and complete the 4-of FoW and either ponder or daze. That's just me though. Have you tried testing this kind of list?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

In the spirit of argument for playing Thoughtseize, examine this line of play:

Turn 1: Underground Sea, Thoughtseize, Daze in-hand. If you daze, a really cool play is a t2 Sea -> Delver or Shaman.

Are those not insanely strong plays? I think that's awesome. And in a 2-c list, so slick.

-ABC

[ntropy]

I think Deathrite Shaman is really good, but it does add something else to compete for that turn 1 mana. This maybe make Stifle slightly awkward. Focusing on True-Name Nemesis sort of changes the game plan to a 3 cost threat, so maybe the acceleration is worth sandbagging the disruption but when I think of tempo decks, that turn one Island should be used for a Delver or a Stifle. I have no answer, just thoughts. Another thought is Shadow of Doubt. It was mentioned earlier, and I like it. It counters a fetchland activation, not to mention Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Imperial Recruiter, Natural Order, and Enlightened Tutor, for the same mana investment as Sinkhole, and it draws a card. It doesn't have the ability to take apart an existing manabase, but maybe would be worth investigating some sort of Stifle/Sinkhole/Shadow of Doubt split. It can always be cycled if it's dead, and plays well with Snapcaster Mage. And lastly, I think Hymn to Tourach is too good of a card to not play, unless you have some really compelling reasons. (Like a meta full of Goblins and Elves) I could be wrong, but in the current meta of "fair" decks and combo decks, Hymn just rules. It's alao a great turn 2 answer to their own turn 3 TNN:)

[nedleeds]

Sinkhole is useless in this format in 2013. That's a proven and estabilished fact.

LOL. Then basic lands must be useless as well? Your counterargument against casting sinkhole is this giant straw man of .... "Play awesome creatures!" "Combo off and winzzzzz!"

[Final Fortune]

I think taking BUG, cutting Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay for True Name Nemesis and Sinkhole should be pretty viable, the problem tho' is that you're left with serious gaps in board removal and a 2cc wall. I think it's the kind of gambit that would have an advantage in the aggro-control mirrors but end up folding to something like Goblins.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Still have sb for games 2 and 3 - things like e. Plague and golgari charm.

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[troopatroop]

Happy to see some players looking at Blue/Black.

My recent findings,

Hymn is too good
Deathrite is way too good
Stifle/Sinkhole aren't amazing
Tarmogoyf > Tombstalker > Confidant

The last one being awkward for this thread, but an important footnote. I think the deck needs Tarmogoyf, as that 2 drop creature slot is awkward. I started thinking about Tarmogoyf over the Sinkholes, and it's just a much safer gameplan. You get almost as many free wins, and plenty more where the wall mattered. In moving away from that LD stuff, i do alot better in lategame "Stoneforge situations". Anyone been making Sinkhole better? it is very hard to make work.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Do you guys think baleful Strix is good enough without sfm to beef it up? I don't want to splash green for anything more than abrupt decay and if I splash, it will be for sfm, not goyf.

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[Illusions]

Happy to see some players looking at Blue/Black.

My recent findings,

Hymn is too good
Deathrite is way too good
Stifle/Sinkhole aren't amazing
Tarmogoyf > Tombstalker > Confidant

The last one being awkward for this thread, but an important footnote. I think the deck needs Tarmogoyf, as that 2 drop creature slot is awkward. I started thinking about Tarmogoyf over the Sinkholes, and it's just a much safer gameplan. You get almost as many free wins, and plenty more where the wall mattered. In moving away from that LD stuff, i do alot better in lategame "Stoneforge situations". Anyone been making Sinkhole better? it is very hard to make work.

What's your latest list?

It might be a meta thing, but my experience of stifle/sinkhole has been pretty good. From what I've learned, the first turn stifle is almost never what you want to be doing, but that doesn't make it a dead card by any means. If I'm on the play and have a DRS or delver, I will generally run it out to force them to remove it. If they don't, I can wasteland them on my turn two, and then play another one drop with stifle mana up (with DRS), or play a land and sinkhole them, or another threat with stifle mana up. If they do remove it, I can play a land, play a threat, wasteland them (and be in the same position as we would have been first turn, only with stifle mana up this time), or sinkhole them, and be two lands ahead. If they miss a land drop at that stage, they probably won't reach 3 mana all game. If they do somehow make it to planeswalker mana, I have stifle for liliana's edict, and Jace's bounce against tombstalker. At the worst, you can pitch it to force, and save your brainstorms and ponders for extra dig. That's not even mentioning undermining Iona's ETB, making griselbrand pay 7 life: do nothing, or stifling emrakul's annihilator trigger. It even gets around mom. Maybe it's just me, but I think stifle is the most underrated counter ever printed, especially in this day and age.

In your previous list, you were running 4 sinkholes, which I think is too many. The card is dead if they've managed to get ahead on lands (although if that's the case, they're likely flooding out). I run 3 because realistically, it isn't as versatile as a lot of the other cards we're running maindeck, and against some decks you'd rather side it out. That said, in a lot of matches, the tempo swing can be phenomenal, and players just aren't ready for it. Wasteland into sinkhole is just disgusting, and effectively puts you on the play if you drew first. Not to mention, the card allows you to consistently pressure mana bases harder than most other tempo decks, though you have the same amount of disruption. I guess my biggest question would be, what decks are you having trouble with? So far death and taxes is the only deck that I haven't beaten with any kind of consistency (though the games have generally been close), and I attribute that to the skill of the player, combined with the fact that they don't have many non-basics for us to target.

Forgot to mention:

I don't particularly like strix in this type of list. I think tempo decks need pressure; since you may only have one or two threats on the field at any given time, those threats need to be able to close out the game on their own. Strix is an awesome card, and I actually tried running it in UB tempo for a while, but it doesn't close out games. I had many games where I would play strix into an empty field, draw a card, and then my opponent would proceed to play around it and win the game while I chipped away for one damage at a time.

As for shadow of doubt, I played it as a two of in the board. It's awesome against reanimator, elves, and storm, but you shouldn't too worried about storm. Reanimator can be tough, but DRS makes it hard for them (especially if you include one green source), and I've yet to play against elves in any serious capacity, though I suspect they would beat the crap out of us.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you are worried about elves, you are in black, which sports some of the best removal for the pointy-eared wretches in Toxic Deluge and Perish. Even Engineered Plague. I think elves loses post-board. Plus, between wastes and sinkhole, they will have a hard time keeping a Cradle on the table, and that will really help us.

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[Illusions]

If you are worried about elves, you are in black, which sports some of the best removal for the pointy-eared wretches in Toxic Deluge and Perish. Even Engineered Plague. I think elves loses post-board. Plus, between wastes and sinkhole, they will have a hard time keeping a Cradle on the table, and that will really help us.

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Good points, I totally overlooked those.

Also, has anyone considered splashing white for stoneforge? Might even be able to play a vindicate or two as extra land hate, and removal for planeswalkers. There are a number of advantages to doing so, though we would need to carefully examine the creature selection and mana base to avoid reinventing esperblade.

[Illusions]

Anyone tried using marsh casualties in the sideboard? Seems like it would be quite good for taking out opposing TNNs while leaving our own intact. Should also be useful against D&T.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm afraid that a 2-c list just isn't going to be able to hack it. I wish it would but I don't think it will.

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[nimkee]

The deck took 2nd at a 30 man. ! http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15844&d=297264&f=LE

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[Don D]

Coming from Modern, Death's Shadow is a potential addition for this deck.

I brewed up a UB Delver/Death's Shadow list that even out tempos RUG Delver. The spells cost all basically 0 or 1 mana and the deck operates well with only one land in play. The deck has some weak match ups (burn obviously), but gave me a overall pretty positive winning rate against an open field (Xmage, serious, rated).

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Street Wraith

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Snuff Out

4 Watery Grave
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

SB

3 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge

The deck is still in development, so I'm curious about any feedback on the deck. What would you cut/add to that list?

[Fox]

Is the point of your deck to be budget @DonD? If not, there amount of dual lands should outnumber the shocklands. There should also be an amount of basics, which feeds back into fixing the fetch lands to match.

If it was me, I'd generally gear the deck towards fixing the structural flaw of dumping colored non-tramplers on top of your other colored non-tramplers. Trying to preserve the fairly linear gameplan, for me the deck would look like:

-Lands (18)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Watery Grave
2x Underground Sea
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland

-Creatures (13)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Death's Shadow
2x DRS
3x Gurmag Angler

-Spells (29)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Thoughtseize
2x Berserk
2x Snuff Out
1x Reanimate
1x Noxious Revival

There's definitely room in the maindeck to trim cards and make room for an amount of Ponder. As far as cutting the Street Wraith and moving to 1x Watery Grave, I don't think this deck is really that desperate for ways to lose life given that it runs Daze and 8x fetches to find Watery Grave. The secondary fetch being Misty Rainforest and Bayou can just as easily be interchanged with Tropical Island and Verdant Catacombs.

The SB choices seem fine, but I think you're going overboard on the yard hate with Cage. Fatal Push on top of your 4x Snuff Out is also overkill. Cards I'd like to see in the SB include Lilly, Last Hope, Dread of Night, and probably an amount of Abrupt Decay. There's also plenty of ways to go up cards by paying life if you want to approach sideboarded games vs control in that way (things like Skeletal Scrying and even Infernal Contract). As far as life total shenanigans go, it's pretty easy to kill Griselbrand and Tendrils users with a card like False Cure (this card also potentially has text against StP) if you want style points. Cards also exist to combat the mechanic of life gain (Forsaken Wastes) and that effect can be extended to include nullifying damage prevention (Everlasting Torment). Attacking the mechanic of life gain pretty specialized and narrow, but it is a unique thing the legacy card pool allows. Getting off that life gain tangent, you have to be able to beat Chalice with your sideboard strategy and your list does not.

[Don D]

Is the point of your deck to be budget @DonD? If not, there amount of dual lands should outnumber the shocklands. There should also be an amount of basics, which feeds back into fixing the fetch lands to match.

If it was me, I'd generally gear the deck towards fixing the structural flaw of dumping colored non-tramplers on top of your other colored non-tramplers. Trying to preserve the fairly linear gameplan, for me the deck would look like:

-Lands (18)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Watery Grave
2x Underground Sea
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland

-Creatures (13)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Death's Shadow
2x DRS
3x Gurmag Angler

-Spells (29)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Thoughtseize
2x Berserk
2x Snuff Out
1x Reanimate
1x Noxious Revival

There's definitely room in the maindeck to trim cards and make room for an amount of Ponder. As far as cutting the Street Wraith and moving to 1x Watery Grave, I don't think this deck is really that desperate for ways to lose life given that it runs Daze and 8x fetches to find Watery Grave. The secondary fetch being Misty Rainforest and Bayou can just as easily be interchanged with Tropical Island and Verdant Catacombs.

The SB choices seem fine, but I think you're going overboard on the yard hate with Cage. Fatal Push on top of your 4x Snuff Out is also overkill. Cards I'd like to see in the SB include Lilly, Last Hope, Dread of Night, and probably an amount of Abrupt Decay. There's also plenty of ways to go up cards by paying life if you want to approach sideboarded games vs control in that way (things like Skeletal Scrying and even Infernal Contract). As far as life total shenanigans go, it's pretty easy to kill Griselbrand and Tendrils users with a card like False Cure (this card also potentially has text against StP) if you want style points. Cards also exist to combat the mechanic of life gain (Forsaken Wastes) and that effect can be extended to include nullifying damage prevention (Everlasting Torment). Attacking the mechanic of life gain pretty specialized and narrow, but it is a unique thing the legacy card pool allows. Getting off that life gain tangent, you have to be able to beat Chalice with your sideboard strategy and your list does not.

Thx a lot for your feedback! Really appreciated :smile:

I was initially running 1 swamp, 2 grave, 2 sea but was often unable to get Death's Shadow into play due to not being at low enough life. The basic swamp also doesn't work with Daze, so I cut it. With the 4 grave configuration I got hosed by wasteland into surgical, so I switched to a 3/1 configuration (sea for dimir, overgrown tomb if DRS is included).

4 Snuff Out main was a mistake, since there are some match-ups where it really sucks. I have to think about a main deck removal suite I want, that is useful in multiple match-ups.

Street Wraith is a weak card that can potentially be replaced, but it helps set up early Death's Shadow AND Angler.

So overall, I'm going to test different md configurations and then report back. The SB is also going to change depending on the main configuration tested.

[Fox]

Thx a lot for your feedback! Really appreciated :smile:

I was initially running 1 swamp, 2 grave, 2 sea but was often unable to get Death's Shadow into play due to not being at low enough life. The basic swamp also doesn't work with Daze, so I cut it. With the 4 grave configuration I got hosed by wasteland into surgical, so I switched to a 3/1 configuration (sea for dimir, overgrown tomb if DRS is included).

4 Snuff Out main was a mistake, since there are some match-ups where it really sucks. I have to think about a main deck removal suite I want, that is useful in multiple match-ups.

Street Wraith is a weak card that can potentially be replaced, but it helps set up early Death's Shadow AND Angler.

So overall, I'm going to test different md configurations and then report back. The SB is also going to change depending on the main configuration tested.
The issue with not running basic Swamp is that it's the color your deck wins with, and the condition for alt-casting spells like Snuff Out or Massacre. Your deck will also be black enough that it can hobble along on the mono-black plan. In the rough draft I posted, there are only 18 cards (16 blue, 2 green) which you can't cast with a basic Swamp opener.

The worst land in your deck will actually be the green one (either Trop or Bayou), and it will cost you games - still it's going to be a land you need to have. The losses a green land causes are offset with higher DRS numbers, with victories on the back of being more resistant to Wasteland and having maindeck hate vs yard-based strategies. While on the topic of green, it's incredibly important to remember that Berserk is also a removal spell as you go forward and settle on a removal suite.

[tarmogoat]

If you're going in Death's Shadow's route, you should really pay attention to Josh Utter-Leyton's UB Shadow from GP Vegas.
While it underperformed Day 2, it went home at 8-1 (or 7-1-1) on Day 1 IIRC.

4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Stifle
2x Spell Pierce
3x Fatal Push
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Dismember
4x Street Wraith
4x Death's Shadow
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler

4x Wasteland
4x Watery Grave
1x Underground Sea
2x Flooded Strand
2x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Misty Rainforest

2x Engineered Explosives
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Dread of Night
1x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Submerge

[Xod]

It's a very cool list,I played something similar some time ago. I will probably play this list next Sunday.

The only problem I have with the list, is that Elves is a very tough match up. Probably have a marsh casualties or a toxic deluge in the side for that one.

[tarmogoat]

It's a very cool list,I played something similar some time ago. I will probably play this list next Sunday.

The only problem I have with the list, is that Elves is a very tough match up. Probably have a marsh casualties or a toxic deluge in the side for that one.

I'd think that 3x Push and 1x Dismember in the main + 2x EE, 2x Submerge and 2x Cage from the board is more than enough to keep elves at bay.