Leaving A Legacy: A Lesson in The Warrior's Way

[danyul]

Hi Sourcers. I wrote an article for SCG about my experience at the Seattle Open this past weekend. I hope you can take the time to read it and perhaps learn something from my story.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27195_Leaving-A-Legacy-A-Lesson-In-The-Warriors-Way.html

[guelahpapyrus]

Great sentiment, loved a lot of the ideas behind your article. That said, author, you should stop reading now because I'm going to use your article as an example of everything that is wrong with Magic writing. That is not an article, that is a long essay. How many words is that? 2,000+? So much writing about Magic is needlessly long. It makes my inner critic shit itself.

Article writers, please heed the wisdom that so many writers before us have tried to drive home: Kill your darlings.

[warfordium]

i left a more heartfelt comment at SCG, but i wanted to point out something your article highlights which i feel is in opposition to the honourable and noble spirit: "getting people" with that fucking FTV Dryad Arbor. I've only played standard once, at FNMs during Innistrad/Dark Ascension, and I lost more than once to greasy FNM WRRamp players who'd "cheekily" hide their Kessig Wolf Run amongst their stack of 3153426235235 shitty duals and then pull it out after i declared no blocks. Part of me feels that lands with non-mana abilities should be announced, despite not using the stack.

Fetching one out in order to nug a greedily attacking Bob, sure. but choosing the one which otherwise looks like a basic forest (mana symbol stamp and all!) knowing that you'll 'get' people is on the dirty side.

otherwise, well put, and its good to have the courage to admit your weakness and your mistakes.

also: i hope its not daggers to Jordan, but on balance i'd have traded places with him in a heartbeat that day, placing with a brew and getting a deck tech. YMMV.

[HammafistRoob]

Great sentiment, loved a lot of the ideas behind your article. That said, author, you should stop reading now because I'm going to use your article as an example of everything that is wrong with Magic writing. That is not an article, that is a long essay. How many words is that? 2,000+? So much writing about Magic is needlessly long. It makes my inner critic shit itself.

Article writers, please heed the wisdom that so many writers before us have tried to drive home: Kill your darlings.

That's your opinion, not everyone thinks the way you do. Kill your darlings? I don't get it, and maybe that's for the better.


i left a more heartfelt comment at SCG, but i wanted to point out something your article highlights which i feel is in opposition to the honourable and noble spirit: "getting people" with that fucking FTV Dryad Arbor. I've only played standard once, at FNMs during Innistrad/Dark Ascension, and I lost more than once to greasy FNM WRRamp players who'd "cheekily" hide their Kessig Wolf Run amongst their stack of 3153426235235 shitty duals and then pull it out after i declared no blocks. Part of me feels that lands with non-mana abilities should be announced, despite not using the stack.

Fetching one out in order to nug a greedily attacking Bob, sure. but choosing the one which otherwise looks like a basic forest (mana symbol stamp and all!) knowing that you'll 'get' people is on the dirty side.

Well, it's kinda your fault for not looking at their lands or simply asking them if they have the wolf run, or to spread their lands out a bit. "Getting people" with the FtV Dryad Arbor is completely legal and you must take any advantages you can get, even if some might feel it's a scummy thing to do.

Danyul- That was one of the best articles I have read (and I've read a lot of 'em) and I always enjoy your reports and your posts in general. I also get the feeling that you're a much better player than you give yourself credit for, although I feel like that's a good thing as it makes you strive to be even better in a sense. I would definitely read - and suggest you continue to write- a bajillion of your articles.

Are you going to write up a more detailed report of your matches in the swiss? Or is there a lack of long-term memory and notes? If so, it's obviously no big deal. Congrats on the finish sir, and may your ears stay pointy.

[guelahpapyrus]

That's your opinion, not everyone thinks the way you do. Kill your darlings? I don't get it, and maybe that's for the better.


"Kill your darlings" means edit ruthlessly. It's what separates good work from sloppy schlock. Think of it as the pain of cutting your pet combo from your tournament-ready list. This article could have been half the length it came out to be and it would have been endlessly better.

[danyul]

Great sentiment, loved a lot of the ideas behind your article. That said, author, you should stop reading now because I'm going to use your article as an example of everything that is wrong with Magic writing. That is not an article, that is a long essay. How many words is that? 2,000+? So much writing about Magic is needlessly long. It makes my inner critic shit itself.

Article writers, please heed the wisdom that so many writers before us have tried to drive home: Kill your darlings.

It's actually 5000+ words. SCG requested 2000 at the minimum. I'm not a professional writer. I'm just a guy who likes the sound of his own mechanical keyboard. I also wanted to make sure I captured the nuance of my decision. I wanted to put you into my head. I needed a few extra words to do so. Sry. My intention was to tell a full story, not just show you the Top 10 Reasons It Sucks To Dreamcrush Friends.


i left a more heartfelt comment at SCG, but i wanted to point out something your article highlights which i feel is in opposition to the honourable and noble spirit: "getting people" with that fucking FTV Dryad Arbor. I've only played standard once, at FNMs during Innistrad/Dark Ascension, and I lost more than once to greasy FNM WRRamp players who'd "cheekily" hide their Kessig Wolf Run amongst their stack of 3153426235235 shitty duals and then pull it out after i declared no blocks. Part of me feels that lands with non-mana abilities should be announced, despite not using the stack.

Fetching one out in order to nug a greedily attacking Bob, sure. but choosing the one which otherwise looks like a basic forest (mana symbol stamp and all!) knowing that you'll 'get' people is on the dirty side.

otherwise, well put, and its good to have the courage to admit your weakness and your mistakes.

also: i hope its not daggers to Jordan, but on balance i'd have traded places with him in a heartbeat that day, placing with a brew and getting a deck tech. YMMV.

I understand that many people hate that Dryad Arbor, but to be fair I never hide it. It is always in plain view, only ever beside or beneath the other copy of Dryad Arbor.


Danyul- That was one of the best articles I have read (and I've read a lot of 'em) and I always enjoy your reports and your posts in general. I also get the feeling that you're a much better player than you give yourself credit for, although I feel like that's a good thing as it makes you strive to be even better in a sense. I would definitely read - and suggest you continue to write- a bajillion of your articles.

Are you going to write up a more detailed report of your matches in the swiss? Or is there a lack of long-term memory and notes? If so, it's obviously no big deal. Congrats on the finish sir, and may your ears stay pointy.

I appreciate the kind words. This was a difficult one to write up. If I have a reason to publish on SCG again, I will try to do so. Otherwise I'll just post on The Source where I can include stupid pictures and swear words. I do plan to write up a more detailed report. I have sketchy notes so I'll likely write up as much as I can after work tomorrow before this stuff fades from memory.

[Smmenen]

i left a more heartfelt comment at SCG, .

I also left a similar response at you, I Believe. I don't understand why you are villifying people who want to ID.

As I said:


Why do people who want to ID have to be "honorless" or PT dream-pursuers? I've never been interested in a Pro Tour career, but I am interested in winning touranments, and I think the ID is an awesome tournament mechanic. It's great to be able to ID into a Top 8 spot, if both players want to. I'm all for playing for Glory, but I define "glory" as winning tournaments. If IDing gives you a better shot at that objective (and thereby glory) by guaranteeing a top 8 slot, then that is entirely consistent with your stated aim, rather than not.

[Lemnear]

Nice reference to my 4 Birchlore Build, pal. Enjoyed the read in the Train :)

[warfordium]

I also left a similar response at you, I Believe. I don't understand why you are villifying people who want to ID.

Though my language was strong, I don't want to vilify, just to disagree.

I have, of course, ID'd into top 8 before. I've also played the last round to maintain X-2 with good breakers only to miss, thanks to an ID above me. Its easy to do when you're on the upside end, and when you don't have to see the fallout. In this particular case, neither Daniel nor Jordan could avoid coming face-to-face with what this tactic does—locks out people who, despite a poorer record in the penultimate round, attempt to best their opponent in a best-of-three match to make the cut to the elimination rounds.

Put another way, if you play the last round you have to look the person you knocked out (or were knocked out by) in the eyes. IDing puts the person you knocked out at arms length. Either way someone is going home. Why not swing the sword? Daniel might have been on the play throughout the Top 8, that could certainly have been beneficial towards his ability to win (even if he'd had to face Jordan in the quarters).

That having been said, putting yourself into the position where you have the opportunity (luck, luxury, ability) to draw in is part of the game in a tournament setting, and an understandable action if your aim is to win it all, and if that is how you define your achievement.

Now, to put my money where my mouth is and play out all my ultimate rounds. Easy to boast, hard to do.

[Smmenen]

Though my language was strong, I don't want to vilify, just to disagree.



Your rhetoric, language and word choice suggests more than mere disagreement. If playing it out is "honorable," than people who ID, therefore, lack honor.




I have, of course, ID'd into top 8 before. I've also played the last round to maintain X-2 with good breakers only to miss, thanks to an ID above me.


That's a misapprehension on your part. Your failure to make Top 8 there was not caused by the ID above you, but your two losses.

Two losses in pretty much any 8 or fewer round tournament is an automatic failure to make Top 8. The longstanding de facto baseline in tournament magic is that you are knocked from contention at X-2, with very exceptional circumstances as exceptions.

While you may offer the counterpoint that if folks don't ID above you, then X-2 players can make Top 8, let me offer two responses. First, viewed that way, both your losses and the IDs are causes (in the sense that they contributed to the outcome), but that means you should only worry about those things you can control.

Second, it's more fruitful to simply accept a gestalt shift way of looking at this issue, and realize that X-2 means you probably aren't making Top 8.




That having been said, putting yourself into the position where you have the opportunity (luck, luxury, ability) to draw in is part of the game in a tournament setting, and an understandable action if your aim is to win it all, and if that is how you define your achievement.



How else does one acquire Glory except winning? You used the term Glory several times, yet I don't see any other obvious meaning to that term in this context.




Now, to put my money where my mouth is and play out all my ultimate rounds. Easy to boast, hard to do.

Not actually. The new play/draw rule is a huge incentive to avoid IDs in ultimate rounds. That's why I don't like it.

[warfordium]

Your rhetoric, language and word choice suggests more than mere disagreement. If playing it out is "honorable," than people who ID, therefore, lack honor.

Only if you assign honour as a binary condition—can there be degrees of honour? One could offer, for example, that there is more honour to be had by playing out the ultimate round looking for the flawless victory than there is in accepting a draw with a player whose record ostensibly makes them your equal in that particular tournament (which said opponent might instead might find more honourable).


That's a misapprehension on your part. Your failure to make Top 8 there was not caused by the ID above you, but your two losses.

Two losses in pretty much any 8 or fewer round tournament is an automatic failure to make Top 8. The longstanding de facto baseline in tournament magic is that you are knocked from contention at X-2, with very exceptional circumstances as exceptions.

While you may offer the counterpoint that if folks don't ID above you, then X-2 players can make Top 8, let me offer two responses. First, viewed that way, both your losses and the IDs are causes (in the sense that they contributed to the outcome), but that means you should only worry about those things you can control.

Second, it's more fruitful to simply accept a gestalt shift way of looking at this issue, and realize that X-2 means you probably aren't making Top 8.

Your assessment of the mathematics and which factors are controllable are spot on. X-2 almost never makes it in, some crazy things have to happen (yet sometimes they do!). One must also accept that the primary factor which influences the state of contention is one's own number of points, no argument there.

Maybe the ability to ID is the cherry on top from Lady Luck after blessing you with the right topdecks, mulligans, validated lines, and matchups throughout the Swiss. Intangibles all, but factors nonetheless. A good point that Daniel also brings up in his article is that there is likely much noise and variance there is in top results thanks to pairings. sdematt made it to the finals at a Seattle SCG playing against fast combo once (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25073-Rocking-Junk-2nd-Place-at-SCG-Seattle&highlight=) (reanimator), yet hit 5/8 combo matchups just a few months later. Going X-0 or X-1 against a more favourable set of matchups might not garner as much esteem as going X-1 or X-2 against a less favourable one.

Another one to consider when IDing is your opponent's ability to knock out players against whom you potentially have bad (or good) matchups. Provided that you've been able to scout at the top tables, your partner in the ID might also fold to something you can't beat, or crush something you can't.


How else does one acquire Glory except winning? You used the term Glory several times, yet I don't see any other obvious meaning to that term in this context.

As above, one might find it in winning while making it to the elimination rounds without intentionally drawing—which is inherently more difficult, non? It also serves as a counterpoint (albeit a soft one) to the contribution of the luck of the pairings draw throughout the Swiss. If you didn't face UWr Miracles all day while on Maverick yet knocked a pilot out in ultimate round of Swiss, thats glorious.

Playing the last round has upsides from strategic, mathematical, and personal reasons—as does the ID. How you value the way you win can be a difficult thing to answer when you find yourself in Dan's shoes. I'd like to encourage people to take the risk of playing, and would hold them in higher esteem for doing so.

[Backseat_Critic]

Daniel,

Nice work. I thought that the story you highlighted about icing out Jordan was well done, despite the detractors. I for one don't like the reports with details about the 'sick bbq' across the street from the venue, and other irrelevencies. The situation you described, while unlikely to happen in specific, got us talking about IDing in general.

I don't envy your position. It looks like a group of people were hovering around with their scumbag shaming knives. That kind of pressure is not comfortable, but it's still your perogative to change your mind. The only thing I would have done differently is to not agree to a draw at a future time. Still, if you backed out, they'd be angry, but not really in the right. Your goal is to win, even if it means knocking some guy out of top 8. As a competitor, he has no excuse for not understanding that. Also, you gave him the most sporting chance to advance; winning the match.

As for 'killing your darlings,' I would provide a different piece of advice. Always please yourself first. Never write for an audience. You'll make something better by pleasing yourself than by trying to internally focus group. The origin of most drek is a person cynically trying to provide what he assumes others want, but he does not. What you produce will always be disliked by some. Live with that and move on.

Keep up the good work, and good luck in your future tournaments and writing.

Cheers,
Backseat Critic

[Plague Sliver]

Great report, man. Very honest. Didn't feel it was too long.

[davelin]

Excellent read, more enjoyable than your typical tourney report/article. It sounds like you all hadn't considered the possibility of the both of you making top 8 if you both won your respective match. Given that, I definitely wouldn't blame you for not being able to read what your friend's cryptic message was after he won his match.

Despite all that, it's good to hear you guys are still on good terms with each other, no game is worth that.

[Finn]

I have certainly played against opponents who have tried to pawn their Arbors off as mere lands. It ticks me off just thinking about it. I don't think I have ever actually made the error of not recognizing something like a creature tucked in amongst the lands, but I would certainly be upset if someone did it on purpose and it worked on me. It is an attempt to misrepresent the game state. Just because it is not expressly against the rules does not make it okay. Magic tournament culture is accepting of far too much terrible behavior and I would love to see wotc take an interest in cleaning it up.

On another note...
...Quite possibly the best Magic article I have ever read. You, sir, have actual writing ability, and as such, this article is head and shoulders above just about everything else out there IMHO. Thank you for putting in the time to do it right. I hope Jordan accepts your rather detailed public apology. If he is as good as you imply, he will get another good look at top 8 soon.

[Richard Cheese]

That's a misapprehension on your part. Your failure to make Top 8 there was not caused by the ID above you, but your two losses.

Two losses in pretty much any 8 or fewer round tournament is an automatic failure to make Top 8. The longstanding de facto baseline in tournament magic is that you are knocked from contention at X-2, with very exceptional circumstances as exceptions.

While you may offer the counterpoint that if folks don't ID above you, then X-2 players can make Top 8, let me offer two responses. First, viewed that way, both your losses and the IDs are causes (in the sense that they contributed to the outcome), but that means you should only worry about those things you can control.

Second, it's more fruitful to simply accept a gestalt shift way of looking at this issue, and realize that X-2 means you probably aren't making Top 8.


Good article, but this comment pretty much steals the show. Your friend had a great performance, but he lost two rounds. It's just coincidence that you did well, but it somehow makes you a scapegoat for his own failings? He should just be happy to have done so well at a major event with his own brew, and should have really been more supportive of you making top 8 and not put you on tilt.

At the end of the day though, Smmmenemnenemn has it right, the new play/draw rules do not encourage IDs, so play it out.

[danyul]

Thanks for all the kind comments guys. I do appreciate it.


Good article, but this comment pretty much steals the show. Your friend had a great performance, but he lost two rounds. It's just coincidence that you did well, but it somehow makes you a scapegoat for his own failings? He should just be happy to have done so well at a major event with his own brew, and should have really been more supportive of you making top 8 and not put you on tilt.

At the end of the day though, Smmmenemnenemn has it right, the new play/draw rules do not encourage IDs, so play it out.

I understand that him being X-2 put him in the coffin, so to speak. But that doesn't mean it felt good for me to be the one to nail his tomb shut. Let's say I was one of his two losses, but somebody else was responsible for ID-locking him out of Top 8. Then I probably wouldn't feel so bad at all, correct? It's all about the context. And in this context, it was not pleasant to be the final nail in that coffin.

And I don't blame him for being upset. We are both passionate players. You should see me when I lose. I Hulk out sometimes.

[Tammit67]

If someone has a complaint about the length, they didn't bother to read closely the excellent article you've procured. There are many tournament reports that provide "I drew this then and that killed him and the next game he had this that I played around and this other mistake on his part gave me the match". I rather enjoyed a departure from that and discussing something more ethical.

Congrats on your performance.

[wcm8]

-your friend is a jerk for guilt tripping you at all
-affinity-bro's posse are jerks for guilt tripping you into ID'ing him into top 8
-the wishy-washy rules about discussion of 'collusion' and prize-splitting suck, can't we all just be adults and not have to talk in coded language?
-a good point you made during that wall-of-text article/rant/love letter to your friend is that tournament results are largely a matter of luck and randomness (pairings, shuffling, mulligans, drawing, blindly-made choices, mistakes and lack-thereof, etc.)

[danyul]

-your friend is a jerk for guilt tripping you at all
-affinity-bro's posse are jerks for guilt tripping you into ID'ing him into top 8
-the wishy-washy rules about discussion of 'collusion' and prize-splitting suck, can't we all just be adults and not have to talk in coded language?
-a good point you made during that wall-of-text article/rant/love letter to your friend is that tournament results are largely a matter of luck and randomness (pairings, shuffling, mulligans, drawing, blindly-made choices, mistakes and lack-thereof, etc.)

The article is an attempt to navigate through a world of greys and with that in mind I would hesitate to make such binary statements. But I do appreciate you taking the time to read my story/bromantic tragicomedy.

[Richard Cheese]

Thanks for all the kind comments guys. I do appreciate it.



I understand that him being X-2 put him in the coffin, so to speak. But that doesn't mean it felt good for me to be the one to nail his tomb shut. Let's say I was one of his two losses, but somebody else was responsible for ID-locking him out of Top 8. Then I probably wouldn't feel so bad at all, correct? It's all about the context. And in this context, it was not pleasant to be the final nail in that coffin.

And I don't blame him for being upset. We are both passionate players. You should see me when I lose. I Hulk out sometimes.

I get it being upset at a near miss, but I think directing his anger at you was misguided and counterproductive. I'm pretty sure my reaction would be "you fucker, you better play your ass off in top 8 and you're buying me a drink later". If you can't be happy for your firends' success, you're taking yourself too seriously.

[GoblinSettler]

Great report. Thanks for being open about what happened. It has brought up interesting conversation. Both here and offline.



-the wishy-washy rules about discussion of 'collusion' and prize-splitting suck, can't we all just be adults and not have to talk in coded language?

This. The current practice just pushes collusion under the rug. They didn't talk about it openly so obviously nothing is going on. The only cases I have witnessed have been players unintentional disqualifying themselves by responding openly to coded statements. Talking plainly doesn't open the door to coercion any more than it already is.

I think the ID system is a moral gray area. What if Dan and Jordan met in round 9 and other dude knocked out the paired down 21 pointer. Seems like dude bro could be justifiably upset at the appearance of an ID between friends. Totally in the right to ID or not, appearance and feelings do come into play. Especially under pressure and exhaustion.

Each time you help someone up you are pushing someone else down. As another poster already said it is easier to look in the eyes of the person across from you and help them than think of some stranger/friend who is not there. You can earn your wins but there are plenty of outside factors that determine the top 8.

I would say this is a bigger problem at small local events. The eight-person tourney where half the people are roommates and always ID with each other. Barf. I guess it gets worse in draft. Used to be a store I player in that let players seat themselves. You'd get people to your right and left working together. :/ Glad for better places to play lately.

[Smmenen]

Each time you help someone up you are pushing someone else down. .

You know this is not true.

[Finn]

You know this is not true.

It is necessarily and absolutely true.

[Smmenen]

It is necessarily and absolutely true.

Not if the people who IDed are at the bottom of the standings.

In any case, the same could be said of losing to other people. By losing, you have given that person more points than they would have had if you IDed.

From that perspective, IDing with an opponent may be more helpful to third parties than playing it out, since if you lose, you may vault someone else above another person. Some third parties are helped by IDs.

The entire discussion on IDing is ridiculous. It's not a moral gray area. It's only perceived to be so because of the absurdly romantic notion that people who play in Magic tournaments are "warriors" rather than card players competing in a tournament.

The objection to "IDing" as collusion is premised on some notion of what a 'pure' or 'real' tournament should look like, forgetting for the moment that best 2/3 match structure, and swissand a top 8 structure are not givens.

Magic tournaments could simply be swiss + 1 without a Top 8 playoff, and this problem would be solved immediately.

[r3dd09]

Looks like I definitely need to give this a read after work and legacy tonight.

[wcm8]

Magic tournaments could simply be swiss + 1 without a Top 8 playoff, and this problem would be solved immediately.

I would kind of like this, to be honest.

[Lord Seth]

Not actually. The new play/draw rule is a huge incentive to avoid IDs in ultimate rounds. That's why I don't like it.
What, huh? This baffles me. Sure, the fact that drawing can put you at a lower seed is an incentive to not draw, but is it really enough to make someone think "well, rather than draw and be guaranteed to get into Top 8, I'll risk not getting into it in the hopes of getting a higher seed"? I'd much rather be seeded 8 in the Top 8 than be the top-rated person to not make it into the Top 8. It's an incentive, to be fair, but it's not huge, it's actually quite small.

In fact, interestingly, the only way the play/draw rule has ever affected my decision on whether to ID or not was that it made me do it on the basis that if I and my opponent (both undefeated in the final round) drew, we'd get #1 and #2 seed, meaning it would guarantee that unless we played against each other in the Top 8, each of us would be playing first in all our final rounds. If not for that play/draw rule, we would've played it out because we'd both be guaranteed to get Top 8 no matter who won, and the seeds wouldn't matter.

[Michael Keller]

In fact, interestingly, the only way the play/draw rule has ever affected my decision on whether to ID or not was that it made me do it on the basis that if I and my opponent (both undefeated in the final round) drew, we'd get #1 and #2 seed, meaning it would guarantee that unless we played against each other in the Top 8, each of us would be playing first in all our final rounds. If not for that play/draw rule, we would've played it out because we'd both be guaranteed to get Top 8 no matter who won, and the seeds wouldn't matter.

Right, but for someone who rocks decks without lands like I tend to do sometimes, the "play/draw" rule is actually a huge incentive to take advantage of. Earning the ability to force my opponents to draw first is very important and something I always shoot for as it pertains to climbing the final standings.

[Smmenen]

I would kind of like this, to be honest.

That used to be the norm, and it sucked. One loss and you can't win the tournament.

[wcm8]

That used to be the norm, and it sucked. One loss and you can't win the tournament.

I misunderstood it then. Maybe cut to Top 8 is simply the best method we have to determine a winner in a large tournament.

[GoblinSettler]

Not if the people who IDed are at the bottom of the standings.

Noted.


It's not a moral gray area. It's only perceived to be so because of the absurdly romantic notion that people who play in Magic tournaments are "warriors" rather than card players competing in a tournament.

When I say grey area here, I am not referring to warriors or honor. I am referring to the opportunity afforded to players to manipulate the standings to the benefit of themselves and their friends. I am not talking about this particular situation. Perhaps a better example would be the related possibility of scooping your friends into top 8.

Collusion happens.

[Smmenen]

Noted.



When I say grey area here, I am not referring to warriors or honor. I am referring to the opportunity afforded to players to manipulate the standings to the benefit of themselves and their friends. I am not talking about this particular situation. Perhaps a better example would be the related possibility of scooping your friends into top 8.

Collusion happens.

That's not collusion. That's taking advantage of tournament structure. Collusion is illegal.

[Teluin]

He's saying it sucks.

[GoblinSettler]

That's not collusion. That's taking advantage of tournament structure. Collusion is illegal.

OK. Perhaps that is a fine case. I don't think it can be prevented.

If there is a clear line between taking advantage of the tournament structure and collusion, it lies somewhere in intent. Intent can be obscured from third parties. The only tool we have to combat this is openness and transparency.

I am in favor of the tournament structure. I am in favor of allowing intentional draws, too. They aren't perfect but they are better than the alternative of players quietly throwing games.

Similarly, I think that allowing players to openly discuss certain actions and outcomes would be better than now where these topics open you up to risk of disqualification.

In an up and up situation the current rules are fine but I have seen the threat of disqualification move discussions out of earshot of judges and other players. This makes it easier for intimidation and bribery to occur rather than preventing it.

[Kich867]

Looks like I definitely need to give this a read after work and legacy tonight.

It's not that exciting. Basically this guy's friend--who isn't actually a friend and is very obviously just an acquaintance--became absurdly butt hurt when this guy drew his way into top 8. Even though, to my knowledge, it is in no way illegal to tell your friend "If you win this I will top 8". Telling your friend to win is something everyone does, and in no way affects the outcome of the match. The only illegal thing that was going on was his opponent was planning on basically just derping around in their game until the match before them was decided.

At no point, at all, is it wrong to tell your friend that if he wins this game they both top 8. He's not telling him to do something illegal and it's certainly not collusion, it's a matter of fact.

His friend was just wildly retarded and the whole thing was very ridiculous.

[danyul]

The entire discussion on IDing is ridiculous. It's not a moral gray area. It's only perceived to be so because of the absurdly romantic notion that people who play in Magic tournaments are "warriors" rather than card players competing in a tournament.

Woop woop. The Fun Police are here.

I like pretending to be a warrior/wizard/mage and whatever. It's entertaining.


Danyul - Jordan shouldn't have been upset since it's not like you were a lock for top 8 if you lost. If I were in Jordan's shoes, I would have told you to draw and get in for sure rather than risk neither of us getting in. Yes, you were favored, but strange things can happen. How would he have felt if you lost?

Having said that, I can't stand people that get to the last round and whine when they expect to draw in and can't. Stop feeling upset if you get paired down against an x-1-1, they're trying to get a friend into the top 8, you've pissed this person off before, etc. and they want to play it out. Nobody deserves to be given anything. It's usually not personal (if it is, you probably did something to make it personal) so get over it and play. There are people to this day that give me dirty looks for making them play the last round in tournaments that happened years ago when they would have done the same thing in my situation. It's just business, baby.

I respect that.


It's not that exciting. Basically this guy's friend--who isn't actually a friend and is very obviously just an acquaintance--became absurdly butt hurt when this guy drew his way into top 8. Even though, to my knowledge, it is in no way illegal to tell your friend "If you win this I will top 8". Telling your friend to win is something everyone does, and in no way affects the outcome of the match. The only illegal thing that was going on was his opponent was planning on basically just derping around in their game until the match before them was decided.

At no point, at all, is it wrong to tell your friend that if he wins this game they both top 8. He's not telling him to do something illegal and it's certainly not collusion, it's a matter of fact.

His friend was just wildly retarded and the whole thing was very ridiculous.

Alright. On the real. That kinda hurt my feelings. But I put myself in a vulnerable place so I can accept that. I guess. I was under the impression that it was illegal to tell people how to play out their matches - win, lose, or draw. Of course, we all want to win and the implicit goal of each round is to win that round, but outside information is outside information. And everybody there was silent and even went so far as to shush people who tried to tell me things. Telling a friend to win in a motivational sense, as in "Hey buddy. You got this," is way different than providing outside information in the form of "If you X, then Y" with X being "win this match for me".

....

but thanks for reading. LOL.

[Smmenen]

Woop woop. The Fun Police are here.

I like pretending. It's entertaining.

More power to you.

But please don't, in that mode, opine on the ethics of tournament mechanics. Nor from that lens, disparage/impugn/denigrate or villify those who want to intentionally draw.

Once you put the fantasy blinders on, lot of behavior looks different.

When you are Jace, the Mind Sculptor, the world looks alot different.

EDIT:

On a related note, Vroman wrote a very interesting essay a few years back on why Collusion should be legal in Magic. I don't agree with his argument, but he has alot of good points:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39067.0

Food for thought.

[danyul]

I didn't think I was putting a value judgment on tournament ethics or draws. If that is what you interpreted, then I didn't explain myself well enough. I mention in the article that I don't think you should stop doing that sort of thing. My argument, if you can call it that, is simply to do what helps you sleep best at night. Granted, my story is an extreme case in which luck and *information* were somewhat working against me. I don't think most people will have their decisions about whether or not they ID be as dramatic as mine. But I thought it was an interesting story to tell and the fact that we are having this discussion, if that is indeed what we are doing, is good enough for me and all I ever expected of the thing.

I just wanted to tell you cool cats how my weekend went.

You might actually be having an argument with the wrong person right now. I don't think I ever said IDing was a bad guy thing to do. My position was that you should play for you, and never somebody else. That's it.

[Kayradis]

Great piece Dan!
Enjoyed reading it while having breakfast this morning.

[Lemnear]

Geeeez, give Daniel a break. It's not that he bribed anybody or setup a collusion over 4 tables to get himself and his buddies into T8. Let the man enjoy his deserved T8

[Kayradis]

Haters gonna hate.

[Luklinda]

Great read and a well written article; you did nothing wrong. Immediately halting your game when the other had ended and determining the result based on the other game would have been a violation - but by discussion/re-offering the draw at such time you had the choice of opting yes/no.



Collusion happens.

I kinda want to see this stamped on something for tournament play, looks like I have a new playmat/tee-shirt now.

[nedleeds]

Bromancing the Stone.
Bromance of the three kingdoms.
True Bromance.

[Tormod]

An excellent article and read. Thanks so much for sharing your story and ideas. I was glued to the article start to finish.

Reading the article felt like in got to know you.

[TsumiBand]

Collusion = bad tricks
FTV Dryad Arbor next to regular Forests = good tricks

Got it!

[Kich867]

Alright. On the real. That kinda hurt my feelings. But I put myself in a vulnerable place so I can accept that. I guess. I was under the impression that it was illegal to tell people how to play out their matches - win, lose, or draw. Of course, we all want to win and the implicit goal of each round is to win that round, but outside information is outside information. And everybody there was silent and even went so far as to shush people who tried to tell me things. Telling a friend to win in a motivational sense, as in "Hey buddy. You got this," is way different than providing outside information in the form of "If you X, then Y" with X being "win this match for me".

....

but thanks for reading. LOL.

It fundamentally cannot change the outcome of the match though, I'm not sure how there's any question to this. ... I'm super confused right now. You can't just decide to win a game if you haven't beaten your opponent and your opponent refuses to scoop to you. Like if your friend just came over and said, "Hey if you win we both top 8, so try to win!" at no point is that collusion because your friend, nor you, have any actual influence over the outcome of the match. You have to legitimately beat your opponent, it'd be illegal if you were to exert any sort of bribery or coercion to attempt to force the opponent into scooping to you, but at no point did either of you do that nor did you need to.

And my post wasn't really meant to slight you, it was meant to slight your friend, who seems obnoxious. Had he just said something to you after winning his match none of that would have happened--he can't get mad at you for something there was no way for you to know, that makes sense for you to do at the time, and then to have the balls to get pissy with you over it to the point of ignoring you...dude I can't even think of a mediocre friend who would get pissy like that. Furthermore, where the fuck did he go? I dunno, it just seemed like the whole thing was blown way out of proportion for a situation that, at best, was no ones fault, and at worst, was exclusively his / anyone else you were with's fault for not saying shit to you.

[danyul]

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore. I've said all I needed to say in the article. I just wanted the world to know that my friend was good enough to make a Top 8, and that the only thing that got in his way was me. A public apology on SCG, the same site that would had advertised his Top 8, seemed like the most appropriate solution. Writing about that experience was an act of catharsis for me and in that respect the article has been very useful. The rest of the stuff that came with it, however, I could do without.

I really do appreciate all the kind words I have received about the piece. But, like so many children to overbearing immigrant parents, I only remember the negative comments. I also only buy groceries at Costco/WalMart and I never wear shoes in the house.

My friendship is intact, I got some nice compliments on my writing, and hopefully some people got to read something that made them think a little bit about tournament structure. That's all I wanted. We can let this thread fall off the first page now.