[SCD] Chalice of the Void

[stage]

In a lot of the N&D/Established Decks threads people are crowing over how good Chalice of the Void is against the current meta. Is this the case? If so, why haven't Chalice decks been placing well recently?

[thecrav]

In a lot of the N&D/Established Decks threads people are crowing over how good Chalice of the Void is against the current meta. Is this the case? If so, why haven't Chalice decks been placing well recently?

Chalice is extremely good. A turn 1 chalice at 1 counters most of the cards in RUG, for example. The problem is that the deck that you'd need to build to play challice isn't so hot.

[Darkenslight]

Chalice is extremely good. A turn 1 chalice at 1 counters most of the cards in RUG, for example. The problem is that the deck that you'd need to build to play challice isn't so hot.

It's less that and more, the issue of playing Chalice makes it very difficult to play the cards that improve a deck's consistency, like cheap cantrip effects. It also comes very close to forcing you to play a Sol-base, which is cold to Wasteland. There are decks that can use Chalice effectively (namely, Turbo Eldrazi - aka 12-Post; and Big Red and Stompy variants plus MUD). Both of those are going to end up less consistent long-term (especially whilst learning to play the deck due to losing out on the 12-cantrips of most combo decks, or the tempo theft of cards like Daze, which also counter Chalice.

Yes, Chalice is a strong card: but it has the issue of reducing overall consistency in the deck it's played in, as you have to either build around it or just say, "To Hell with it!"

[lordofthepit]

It's less that and more, the issue of playing Chalice makes it very difficult to play the cards that improve a deck's consistency, like cheap cantrip effects. It also comes very close to forcing you to play a Sol-base, which is cold to Wasteland. There are decks that can use Chalice effectively (namely, Turbo Eldrazi - aka 12-Post; and Big Red and Stompy variants plus MUD). Both of those are going to end up less consistent long-term (especially whilst learning to play the deck due to losing out on the 12-cantrips of most combo decks, or the tempo theft of cards like Daze, which also counter Chalice.

Yes, Chalice is a strong card: but it has the issue of reducing overall consistency in the deck it's played in, as you have to either build around it or just say, "To Hell with it!"

Not sure 12 Post can use Chalice effectively. Crop Rotation, Top, Expedition Map, Pithing Needle, and Candelabra aren't cards you want to shut off.

[Barook]

Chalice's main problem was always consistency since only Sol-decks could really make effective use of it, while preventing the use of powerful 1-drops of your own. Since the chance for an opening CotV + necessary accelerant is way below 40%, you sacrifice alot of power for one potential blowout, and only if you're on the play.

Chalice is also weaker nowadays for two reasons:

1. Abrupt Decay
2. Retarded powerful 1-drops in form of DRS and especially Delver. If they can slip one of those into play before your Chalice is online, they'll go a long way to ruin your day. And the worse thing is, due to deck construction, you're probably not running any effective removal like StP or Bolt for them.

[(nameless one)]

In order for a Legacy deck to be good, you need one of the following:

1) Brainstorm
2) Deathrite Shaman
3) AEther Vial

While Chalice at one is great against decks that run the cards above, Chalice decks tend to have horrible draws and a lot of times, it does to itself due to poor mulligans.

[Megadeus]

4 Color Loam is a very powerful, decently consistent deck that gets to run Chalice and doesn't have to run Sol Lands. And there is no set card that legacy decks need to run to be good. That is complete and utter horse shit

[Darkenslight]

4 Color Loam is a very powerful, decently consistent deck that gets to run Chalice and doesn't have to run Sol Lands. And there is no set card that legacy decks need to run to be good. That is complete and utter horse shit

You're right in that assertion. However, the point of Legacy is that there are a lot of decks that are equally as powerful, if not more so because of cards like DRS, Vial and BS. Chalice is an incredible weapon, but it also has a tendency to limit your deck choices more noticeably than any of the aforementioned cards (DRS, Vial and BS, to wit.) DRS has a rider of "Are you playing Black and/or Green?" Vial has a rider of "Are you playing lots of dudes of equal CMC?" BS has a rider of "Are you playing Blue?"

And before you ask, yes, I am aware that those are incredibly simplistic points of view, but they are all pretty relevant comparisons to Chalice.

[Final Fortune]

There's too much emphasis on playing Chalice of the Void on turn one instead of playing Chalice of the Void on turn two, I think the card, be it MD or SB, in Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls decks like Merfolk, Goblins, Death and Taxes or maybe Affinity is pretty solid.

[herbig]

For the same reason unpowered Null Rod/Fish decks are terrible in Vintage. You have to play a bunch of bad cards to have a shot at blanking absurdly good cards.

[Greenpoe]

Chalice was at its prime in the Mental Misstep era, in decks like Steel Stompy. After that, it became a fringe card again and has stayed there.

[Finn]

Chalice was at its prime in the Mental Misstep era, in decks like Steel Stompy. After that, it became a fringe card again and has stayed there.

Honestly, I think it was already outdated even then. I actually posted an opinion that I thought we should all be sprucing up our Chalice aggro decks at the time, and I tried it. The result was me learning a valuable lesson: The Chalice decks that were reasonably good in days gone by are simply not good enough any more. Even then they weren't. The format has gotten a lot more powerful since the days of Faerie Stompy and Dragon Stompy. MUD is cool. Don't get me wrong. But the guys talking about consistency have it right. The card pulls you very powerfully in its direction. And that direction sux.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I've ceased to play the old school FS because of incosistency isues and also because of Deed and Waste. Now with the printing of Decay CotV became even more vulnerable, but there are still no new tools to play it on turn1 except for Mox Opal.

[apple713]

Consistency for 3 reasons
1. chalice has to be in your opening hand and this only happens ~40% of the time unless you mulligan aggressively
2. you have to be on the play. It sucks when your opponent goes first and plays delver and on your turn you COTV @ 1 and then the delver gets there in 4-5 turns
3. You have to be able to cast it turn one. This means you are playing sol lands (12 at most with a possible crystal vein) chrome mox / mox diamond (never known any deck to play both), or your playing SSG / ESG - other than the lands you are card disadvantaging yourself. Other than accelerating your t1 you probably don't need multiples of chrome mox or ancient tombs.

lets say you're playing a sol land deck with 4 mox. you have a 32% chance of getting COTV and what you need to cast it on t1. so on average once every 3 game match.

in the event that you did land it, most decks it hurts have something to deal with it.

Shardless / jund have abrupt decay / deed krosan grip and possibly others from the board.
Combo decks have echoing truth / wipe away.
Red deck wins might have trouble with it but RDW are easy matches to win in general
D&T / Maverick have flickerwisp, mangara, quasali pridemage


basically against the decks it hurts they'll typically see more answers for it than you will be able to pull it off. Thats not to say its bad, but to make it viable with 30% chance of happening you have to devote a lot of slots to this strategy.

Stax consistency in landing COTV / Trini t1 is around 45-50% and that deck is far from top tier.... 50% of the time you dominate...actually because of FOW its much less than 50%. If you could protect it conveniently it would be much better. But now you are devoting a lot of resources to 1 strategy that does not win the game.

[kingtk3]

Chalice is an hard lock against X CMC spells (where X is the number of tokens): that's the good part of it. That means that your opponent has to find a solution or be unable to cast that spells.

Usually, playing cov prevents you from playing 1 CMC spells (since you want to prey on them): that's the bad part of it. Moreover it's often played alongside sol-lands which have their disadvantages, but also have advantages.

Ideally you want to play chalice as soon as possible in order to blank all the spells of a certain CMC (let's say 1), but it's not mandatory. Chalice is often playd in decks with plenty of mana and huge creatures (ie wurmcoil engine) which many decks literaly have no way to handle: the most feared card is, in fact, swords to plowshares since it negates your big investment (6 or 7 mana) at the cost of only 1 mana.

So it's still fine to drop a chalice on turn 3 or 4 to protect your next threat, because usually it will be big enough to ignore the board.

It's true that with the printing of AD chalice got weaker, but also note that BG decks lean more on 2 CMC spells than 1: chalice is often sided out against those decks.

The consistency issues are true, not playing manipulation hurts, but there are many successful decks that don't run any either.

[nedleeds]

Much of what has been said thus far is retarded. It doesn't have to be played turn one on the play. Is it better turn one on the play? Of course ... what an absurd observation. Mother of Runes is better on the play turn one, so is Goblin Guide. It doesn't have to be played on turn one to be effective if it's blanking your opponents removal, especially if what it's protecting is a 2-3 turn clock. It dies to Abrupt Decay is a fantastic reason to never play 1-2 CMC perms, thanks.

[Wynk]

Chalice is an hard lock against X CMC spells (where X is the number of tokens): that's the good part of it. That means that your opponent has to find a solution or be unable to cast that spells.


X is not 0 unless they cast it for zero.

Chalice is still excellent vs. combo turn 1 and operates to shut off most delver decks as long as they don't turn 1 delver. Its a reasonable sideboard choice.

[Vacrix]

Some decks like Belcher and SI have an easier time playing around Chalice at 0 because the IMS's can come from non-0 sources like Land Grant and ESG. Also, against ANT, they can go off with Cabal Rituals and 0's if you throw down Chalice at 1. Its not very good anymore because its easy to play around. Even playing SI, where you'd think it would be a silver bullet, its just trash that rarely does anything but set the combo player back a turn or 2.

[Megadeus]

I mean against Delver, they play delver, you play chalice, you shut down at least 50% of their draws. Kill the delver, proceed with your gamplan while they struggle to find cards that they can even cast.

[GradStudentGuy]

The problem most chalice decks have is that they mulligan poorly and cant really recover. In my opinion if you want to play a consistent deck with chalice you should look at U/B Tezzerator. Jace, Tezzeret and Thirst for Knowledge help mitigate the problem and the talismans and signets make hands a lot easier to keep.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The problem most chalice decks have is that they mulligan poorly and cant really recover. In my opinion if you want to play a consistent deck with chalice you should look at U/B Tezzerator. Jace, Tezzeret and Thirst for Knowledge help mitigate the problem and the talismans and signets make hands a lot easier to keep.
This. From all the Stompy decks, only the red one is brutal enough (7 Moons, Trini) to actually hate on the format, the blue one has Jace an wutbnot, so it's also not really bad. UB Tezz is the way to go if you're looking for a Chalice based deck.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Chalice has been a go-to SB option for me for years now, but it's definitely getting better and better. Others have raised concerns about MD Chalices and the kinds of decks that can do that, but frankly I think it's still best left in the SB as a very, very nasty surprise.

[Aggro_zombies]

Much of what has been said thus far is retarded. It doesn't have to be played turn one on the play. Is it better turn one on the play? Of course ... what an absurd observation. Mother of Runes is better on the play turn one, so is Goblin Guide. It doesn't have to be played on turn one to be effective if it's blanking your opponents removal, especially if what it's protecting is a 2-3 turn clock. It dies to Abrupt Decay is a fantastic reason to never play 1-2 CMC perms, thanks.
No, but:

If you're running Chalice in the main, it means you're forfeiting one-drops. You have two options at that point: sit on your hands on turn one and then not consistently maximize your mana for a while, or run a bunch of acceleration so you play at the same speed the rest of the format does. Going with the former plan is not, and has never been, good in Legacy. Going with the latter plan leads to consistency issues because you don't have access to the most powerful ways to smooth your draws out (since they basically all cost one) so you have to gamble on getting the right mix of acceleration and disruption through luck.

Arguments over whether you get to live the dream with turn one Chalice at one are just touching on deeper consistency issues that Chalice decks tend to have.

I mean, it's worth remembering that people have been saying that Chalice is good against the format repeatedly for years, and yet no strong, consistent Chalice deck has cropped up anywhere. That suggests either that Chalice itself is not as insane as being able to play the powerful cards OR that problems with Chalice's support architecture more than mitigate the power of Chalice itself. My experience leads me to believe it's some combination of both.

[Megadeus]

No, but:

If you're running Chalice in the main, it means you're forfeiting one-drops. You have two options at that point: sit on your hands on turn one and then not consistently maximize your mana for a while, or run a bunch of acceleration so you play at the same speed the rest of the format does. Going with the former plan is not, and has never been, good in Legacy. Going with the latter plan leads to consistency issues because you don't have access to the most powerful ways to smooth your draws out (since they basically all cost one) so you have to gamble on getting the right mix of acceleration and disruption through luck.

Arguments over whether you get to live the dream with turn one Chalice at one are just touching on deeper consistency issues that Chalice decks tend to have.

I mean, it's worth remembering that people have been saying that Chalice is good against the format repeatedly for years, and yet no strong, consistent Chalice deck has cropped up anywhere. That suggests either that Chalice itself is not as insane as being able to play the powerful cards OR that problems with Chalice's support architecture more than mitigate the power of Chalice itself. My experience leads me to believe it's some combination of both.
Or no-one plays it

[Barook]

Or no-one plays it
Because it blows.

Maybe Chalice decks get one day better when they decide to print a creature version to increase the consistency of T1 Chalice effects:


Voidling X
Artifact Creature - Construct
Voidling enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of +1/+1 counters on Voidling, counter that spell.
0/0

[bruizar]

No, but:

If you're running Chalice in the main, it means you're forfeiting one-drops.

This is an assumption and should not be taken as a universal truth. I can run one-drops ALONGSIDE chalice of the void; as long as I run FEWER one drops than my opponent and/or have less critical one-drops to further my game plan compared to my opponent.

If my opponent's deck absolutely relies on 1-drops, I am more than willing to blank a couple of my own spells in exchange for countering half his deck of critical spells (like against RUG, which only has Tarmogoyf as a 2-mana threat.)

For example: I have run Goblin Welder and Chalice of the Void together and I rarely ran into conflict with it, both in Vintage and in Legacy. Cavern of Souls makes it even easier to run 1-mana spells and chalice together.

Another example is the use of cards that increase or decrease the number of counters on Chalice of the Void, such as Coretapper or Proliferate cards. Even though those type of strategies have never been competitive, form a theoretical standpoint, it would allow you to construct a deck that can reliably cast Chalice of the Void on 1 while also running your own set of 1-CC spells.

[ShiftyKapree]

CotV is decent at best. I ran into it playing rug delver before and crushed them with a turn two goyf. I just let CotV counter all my one drops and I filled my yard and smashed face with it. Also I beat it playing NO CBT a long time ago. Like people say its great in an opening hand turn one on the play, other than that the card is decent. Now in Vintage the cards house.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

CotV is decent at best. I ran into it playing rug delver before and crushed them with a turn two goyf. I just let CotV counter all my one drops and I filled my yard and smashed face with it. Also I beat it playing NO CBT a long time ago. Like people say its great in an opening hand turn one on the play, other than that the card is decent. Now in Vintage the cards house.

Yep. I lost to RUG with Faerie Stompy just because he managed to sneak in Goyf. I won my share of games against Chalice/Trini decks wit hexactly the same tactic - slam the Goyf asap as long as there's no Moon to stop you from it, then just counter w/e he tries to throw in his way.

[(nameless one)]

Chalice sucks because it doesn't have a supporting cast

Brainstorm has Fetchlands and FoW, not to mention the broken cards you can draw with it.

Deathrite Shaman has Abrupt Decay, Liliana and Fetchlands.

Vial has hatebears, Wasteland and Port.

What do you get with Chalice? Trinisphere? Tangle Wire?

While Chalice's supporting cast is good, can it's supporting cast win game? Brainstorm draws you answers and threats. Deathrite Shaman is a threat by itself. Vial puts in threats onto the field, or slow the opponent down long enough (with the land base) that you slowly kill your opponent with that Thalia or Goblin Lackey.

I fucking love Chalice. Wrote a primer on MUD but Legacy just doesn't offer enough supporting cast to Chalice.

Chalice is broken in Vintage because it can simultaneously deny opponent's mana (Moxen) and lock your opponent. You can't do that in Legacy because you might be able to shut down your opponent's Brainstorm/DRS/Vial; he can still Combo out with manarocks, Cabal Ritual/resolve Jace, Shardless Agent/Tarmogoyf, Abrupy Decay/a goblin, merfolk, or a hatebear.

Also, you know how hard is it to resolve a Chalice at one and have a proper mana base that doesn't shit on itself because you draw something that costs 6 on turn two?

Chalice just needs proper support. Aggro Loam is fine but that deck is doing too much in a tight list. Not to mention DRS eats Loam. MUD decks would be awesome but turn one Chalice to turn two nothing is shit compared to a turn one DRS to turn two Liliana or turn one Vial, turn two Waste/Port your land EOT Mom/Lackey/Cursecatcher.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is an assumption and should not be taken as a universal truth. I can run one-drops ALONGSIDE chalice of the void; as long as I run FEWER one drops than my opponent and/or have less critical one-drops to further my game plan compared to my opponent.

If my opponent's deck absolutely relies on 1-drops, I am more than willing to blank a couple of my own spells in exchange for countering half his deck of critical spells (like against RUG, which only has Tarmogoyf as a 2-mana threat.)

For example: I have run Goblin Welder and Chalice of the Void together and I rarely ran into conflict with it, both in Vintage and in Legacy. Cavern of Souls makes it even easier to run 1-mana spells and chalice together.

Another example is the use of cards that increase or decrease the number of counters on Chalice of the Void, such as Coretapper or Proliferate cards. Even though those type of strategies have never been competitive, form a theoretical standpoint, it would allow you to construct a deck that can reliably cast Chalice of the Void on 1 while also running your own set of 1-CC spells.
I don't understand this contrarianism. You're essentially advocating building a bad deck in the hopes of being able to have your cake and eat it, too. Why not just run Counterbalance in this scenario? At least then you can always cast your spells.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Chalice of the Void is a fine card in the current Legacy meta. Yes, decks that include it do suffer from decreased consistency by having to eschew 1cmc cantrips, but that can be balanced by increasing the power of the individual cards in the deck.

I'm currently playing a Welder MUD list and love Chalice. Against RUG Delver, if it resolves with X=1, they generally lose. This forces them to use counters on it, which is fine, because it allows you to resolve your threats, and Wurmcoil Engine, Sundering Titan, and Kuldotha Forgemaster laugh at Lightning Bolts. Against other decks, like Deathblade/Stoneblade, all Chalice really has to do is shut off Swords to Plowshares so that you can confidently forgemaster into Blightsteel Colossus. The point is, CotV on turn 1 with X=1 can sometimes be an auto-win, but there are plenty of times that you can jam it later to protect from a specific threat (heck, in MUD, it's not out of the question to put CotV on X=4 to shut out Jace, the Mind Sculptor).