Legacy Nemesis

[Albert]

Following the discussion (link) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26900-SCD-Identity-Nemesis&p=762280&viewfull=1#post762280) about the impact of True-Name Nemesis in Legacy, I present one idea of deck that I believe can abuse the new card the most.

To begin with, the list:


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tundra
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 [M12] Phantasmal Image
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
4 [C13] True-Name Nemesis

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [NE] Daze
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [JGC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [JU] Envelop
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 3 [DGM] Wear // Tear



And now the reasons for each of the inclusions in the deck:
Assuming the current meta, TNN blows most matchups. It is not only a beater, it is the ultimate wall and the ultimate beater all in one nice blue package. For decks not tuned to beat it, once it lands there is almost nothing that can be done. One single resolved TNN is gg against D&T and almost against JUND, Canadian, Stoneblade, BUG and UWR. That makes for half the DTB. Obviously there are things that can be done with this decks, but you need very specific answers or you will be in for a very uphill battle. Overall, landing a TNN has a massive impact on anything relying on ground attack to finish the game.

This bring me to the point of where does it fit better. People are considering current decks, while I am convinced that TNN centric decks are the way to go.
I think there are some things to be considered while doing this deck:
- If it dominates as much as I belive it will do, combo will increase since TNN does nothing against it, so you need a tempo shell to take most value out of it. Stifle also owns miracles, one of the few solutions to TNN.
- One possible bottleneck of the TNN plan is resolving it -> aether vial, it also fits good with the tempo plan since it lets you have all your mana open once you resolve a turn 1 vial.
- Creatures: TNN, Pantasmal image as extra copies, SFM for the equipments that will make tnn unstoppable, delver to put extra pressure while we keep disrupting everything
- Since most fights will be for resolving TNN, a red splash for red blasts in the SB, many of them.
- Most of the SB devoted to combo

I acknowledge that there are options for the opponents (golgari charm and zealous persecution being the most notable), but the fast tempo shell, and the fact that this cards are off-color against a heavily disrupting deck makes me believe they can be managed.

User testing32 pointed out that mixing vial and delver is not the best move, but I believe they serve 2 very different roles in the deck:
- Vial ensures that your TNN lands uncountered -> good against counter decks (and they will rise since the only option against TNN are combos)
- Delver excels against combo as the fastest threat available. Delver is just a complement to the speed of the deck, and from time to time you get those delver-stifle-waste-fow-daze hands that are unbeatable on their own. And as I said I expect combo to rise to ignore TNN altogether.

If TNN starts dominating, zealous persecution and golgari charm will most probably be the chosen answer, in that case it could be a wise move to change some counters to snares.

What do you all think of the deck?
And how do you think that it can be improved?

[Albert]

I agree that people aren't seeing its power until they get to face it.

However, I don't think your deck has enough creatures to support Aether Vial. How does it work in this deck? Tick it to 3 as soon as possible? Leave it at 2 and tick it if you draw Nemesis?

The main point of using vial is to protect TNN weakest point, the stack. This does not mean that we have to go on autopilot ticking vial to 3, it will all depend on amount of mana, colors available, pressure we are under or that we want to apply etc. For the games I have played so far there is no clear cut answer, each game can be different.
Another thing to consider as comparison to merfolks or D&T is that we run 4 Brainstorm and 3 ponder plus fetchlands, so our searching capabilities are way superior than in those other decks.

[Star|Scream]

No swords?

[Tormod]

This deck is just bad, and you need to spend more time thinking about how you want it to work.

19 spells to flip Delver?

Get rid of your aether vials your 15 creatures doesn't justify the use for 4 slots for vial especially since 4 of your creatures are delvers who you would rather drop turn 1 over a vial, use cavern of souls if you want to push through Truename through Counter magic.

0 removal - nuff said

I think you have way too many ideas and they aren't clear, and you haven't thought about how you want your turns to play out.

[Technics]

This deck is just bad, and you need to spend more time thinking about how you want it to work.

19 spells to flip Delver?

Get rid of your aether vials your 15 creatures doesn't justify the use for 4 slots for vial especially since 4 of your creatures are delvers who you would rather drop turn 1 over a vial, use cavern of souls if you want to push through Truename through Counter magic.

0 removal - nuff said

I think you have way too many ideas and they aren't clear, and you haven't thought about how you want your turns to play out.

I hate to just +1, but this is a pretty good assessment of the deck. Refocus, and i think look at a delver like shell with Nemesis added and adapted in.

[Albert]

Thank you for the feedback! :smile:

I will try to explain the reasons I took for the inclusions, but maybe I have to go back to the drawboard.
Removal: I was expecting TNN to hold the ground on its own, but you are right that some creatures need to be removed for their non-combat properties (dark confidant)
Delver: Delver was a last time addition to the deck, as a way to pressure combo decks. Against combo 10 cards or more come in from the SB; tnn, phantasmal, maybe vial go out.
Vial: With the current meta it makes no sense, agree. The vial suggestion was in case tnn dominates the format and people start overboarding REBs, vial then can be mvp.

I think we have to wait and see the impact tnn has on the format, this deck is probably overestimating tnn's impact.

[klaus]

I completely agree with the core you work from and believe we'll see quite a few Top8 decks featuring the exact same set of cards:

4 Nemesis Man
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

---

Just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head:
Phantasmal Image - not enough guys to support that many.
Delver of Secrets - not enough instants + sorceries?
AEther Vial - not enough guys
Daze - feasible
Stifle - most tempo decks have dropped Stifle (even TA and many RUG lists) due to simply being underpowered.
Ponder - I can see this working
your SB - you definitely need creature hate here - else you'll just be stomped by swarm Aggro. The red splash is cool though

This is what I'd be taking to my next tournament:

4 Nemesis Man
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Geist of the Sainttraft
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Misdirection (Decay will be played even more to fight equipment-wielding Nemeses)

1 Supreme Verdict (winning Nemesis mirrors, clearing the way for Geists)
2 STP
2 Lightning Bolt

[39]

4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cavern of Souls

SB:
3 REB
3 RiP
2 Meddling Mage
2 Wear/Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Fluster Storm

[Jables237]

4x True-Name Nemesis
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
3x Spell Pierce

Is the list I am looking towards. Delvers and snapcasters on top of the base package Klaus was talking about. Is 22 lands too many? Want to be able to get to 3 consistently.

[Tormod]

@ Klaus
this is better but still very very rough.

-You have TEN 3 drops, that's way too many, even in a control archetype. 4 TNN, 3 clique, 2 GoST, 1 Sword of FI
-2 Lightning Bolts are your only red spells. that's a really bad reason to mess up your Mana base for 3 colors, why not just run 4 STP?

I suggest dropping red.

How do you see your deck playing out? it looks to me that it does nothing until turn 3, and you dont have enough removal to defend yourself to reach stability.

[Tormod]

@ Jables

-18 spells to flip delver is bad (see notes above)
It seems like there's a knowledge gap between quite a few brewers and how many spells are needed to flip delver. Thresh runs 30 spells 8 of which manipulate the top of your library, and still its a 50/50 chance if delver will flip. I advocate no less than 26 spells (sorcery and instants) in a delver deck. UWR delver runs 26.

Geist + TNN + Snaps = TWELVE 3 drops of your 18 creatures.
-Choose Geist OR TNN, not both.

18 creatures is too may from what looks to be a control deck.

[Jables237]

@ Jables

-18 spells to flip delver is bad (see notes above)
It seems like there's a knowledge gap between quite a few brewers and how many spells are needed to flip delver. Thresh runs 30 spells 8 of which manipulate the top of your library, and still its a 50/50 chance if delver will flip. I advocate no less than 26 spells (sorcery and instants) in a delver deck. UWR delver runs 26.

Geist + TNN + Snaps = TWELVE 3 drops of your 18 creatures.
-Choose Geist OR TNN, not both.

18 creatures is too may from what looks to be a control deck.

Maybe just drop delver for more counter magic? Or something else that can slow down the game for us to build up to 3 mana? Any ideas? It was already said that Stifle and Wasteland weren't the way to go.

[klaus]

@ Klaus
this is better but still very very rough.

-You have TEN 3 drops, that's way too many, even in a control archetype. 4 TNN, 3 clique, 2 GoST, 1 Sword of FI
-2 Lightning Bolts are your only red spells. that's a really bad reason to mess up your Mana base for 3 colors, why not just run 4 STP?

I suggest dropping red.

How do you see your deck playing out? it looks to me that it does nothing until turn 3, and you dont have enough removal to defend yourself to reach stability.

Miracles runs 4-7 CMC 4 spells, up to 3 Cliques, 2 EtAs and easily gets away with it. Further more they don't play ANY red spells in the main while running between 2-3 red sources exclusively for the SB. Maindecking Bolt is completely feasible when you're splashing red anyway - Albert is absolutely correct when stating that with Nemesis REB will gain even more impact in the near future.

Also, 2 Bolts over STP 3 & 4: being able to race your Nemesis opponents will be relevant. I could even see all STPs becoming SB material to make room for the full playset of Bolts.


It's definitely possible that I drop 1-2 CMC3 spells in favor of guys with lower casting cost. Lavamancer comes to mind and a few other guys.

[Tormod]

Miracles runs 4-7 CMC 4 spells, up to 3 Cliques, 2 EtAs and easily gets away with it. Further more they don't play ANY red spells in the main while running between 2-3 red sources exclusively for the SB. Maindecking Bolt is completely feasible when you're splashing red anyway - Albert is absolutely correct when stating that with Nemesis REB will gain even more impact in the near future.

Also, 2 Bolts over STP 3 & 4: being able to race your Nemesis opponents will be relevant. I could even see all STPs becoming SB material to make room for the full playset of Bolts.


It's definitely possible that I drop 1-2 CMC3 spells in favor of guys with lower casting cost. Lavamancer comes to mind and a few other guys.


Klaus,

You're not building Miracles, not even a variation on it.
Miracles runs 3 MD board wipes to buy time to cast its bigger spells.
Miracles has a soft lock of counter balance top to buy time and cast bigger spells.
Miracles uses SDT AND the MIRACLE mechanic to cast miracles during its opponents turn so it mana is available and doesn't require tapping during its turn.
Miracles isn't concerned about damage racing.
SOME miracles run red for Blood Moon because its a unique effect that can shut down decks, again contributing to its control plan.

I asked you how you see your deck playing out because its an important test in any deck building exercise.
Whats is your turn 1,2,3?
Whats your ideal hands?
What is your critical turn?

[cadaver]

Has anyone considered a bant shell for true name? Noble with equip and true name just seems mean to me. Plus u have ramp, removal, and counter magic with bant.

[Tormod]

Has anyone considered a bant shell for true name? Noble with equip and true name just seems mean to me. Plus u have ramp, removal, and counter magic with bant.

Bant you can power out TNN turn 2 with Noble, and your TNN is better because of exalted. Noble is an infinitely superior 1 drop than Delvers with 18 spells or less. In Bant you could run Gaddock teeg to shut down cards like Supreme Verdict, making it more difficult to deal with TNN.

[klaus]

Klaus,

You're not building Miracles, not even a variation on it.
Miracles runs 3 MD board wipes to buy time to cast its bigger spells.
Miracles has a soft lock of counter balance top to buy time and cast bigger spells.
Miracles uses SDT AND the MIRACLE mechanic to cast miracles during its opponents turn so it mana is available and doesn't require tapping during its turn.
Miracles isn't concerned about damage racing.
SOME miracles run red for Blood Moon because its a unique effect that can shut down decks, again contributing to its control plan.

I asked you how you see your deck playing out because its an important test in any deck building exercise.
Whats is your turn 1,2,3?
Whats your ideal hands?
What is your critical turn?

It's kinda hard to be thorough while at work.
Obviously this an Aggro Control deck so comparing features of the deck's strategy with control decks that share the same colors is not as far fetched as you'd like to make it appear. Questioning the red splash by underestimating the impact of REB (1 EE and 2 Wear/Tear to complete the red SB) actually disqualifies you as someone to trade deck ideas with. I would guess that not more than 20% of high placing Miracles lists out there run Blood Moon despite a red splash exclusively dedicated to the SB aka. REB.
Sorry about the harsh tone in that statement but popping in this thread and just calling everyone on their lack of reason without posting any approaches yourself isn't super awesome either.

Edit: Agree with BANT aka. adding Noble Hierarch being worth some testing.

[Tormod]

Klaus,

Don't go on tilt. Its very weak minded and I would expect better from a Legacy player.

I don't have to write out a 75 to trade ideas. When I'm ready to share my list I will.

Be prepared to BE RECEPTIVE when publishing a list, NOT DEFENSIVE.

Your list is really bad, I can't say its good just because you feel it is.

[rockout]

This thread didn't even make it one page before people bashing each other... come on guys...

This is the list I have been working on.

// Lands
4 [UNH] Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [REW] Wasteland
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
4 True-name nemesis

// Spells
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Problems I foresee, I am super threat light. I wanted to squeeze in snapcaster's and vapor snags and run it like UW delver from the standard days so I could go all in on tempo but yeah it was meh. A lot of times I sit on 2 mana so wasteland might need to go... thoughts?

I was tempted to run 4 probes with the snapcasters as well.

It might not be a bad idea to run sword of light and shadow or BG sword in the main.

[klaus]

Klaus,

Don't go on tilt. Its very weak minded and I would expect better from a Legacy player.

I don't have to write out a 75 to trade ideas. When I'm ready to share my list I will.

Be prepared to BE RECEPTIVE when publishing a list, NOT DEFENSIVE.

Your list is really bad, I can't say its good just because you feel it is.

Tormod, alright, let's ignore the fact that you clearly underestimate a light red splash for REB. Nobody goes on tilt. I just embrace friendly discussion. Anyway, welcome to the N&D Forum where people can post sketches of lists to discuss them with fellow sourcers, w/o having to dedicate weeks of testing beforehand.
If you take a closer look I'm more receptive than you want to make it appear.
-

Back on topic. Let's brainstorm about a Bant list :)

4 Nemesis Man
4 SFM
4 Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Scryb Ranger (flash: check, awesome at carrying equipment: check, delver-proof: check, untaps TNN: check, ramps up mana with Hierarch: check)
3 equipments
4 FoW
2 Spell Snare
4 BS
4 STP
2 Ponder (not sure about Ponder, but finding more TNNs = alright)
36
About 4 more slots to fill and filling those four slots will subsantially determine the playstyle. Go more aggro (à la GWu Maverick) by adding more dudes? Going more bant control by adding Spell Pierce / Jace?

Cards that furthermore come to mind include:
* Shardless (which would require AV imo)
* Pridemage for moar exalted umph and versatile answers to non-creature permanents
* Geist
* Gaddock Teeg (SB material)
* SCM
* Ooze
* Sylvan Library (CA matters)
* Unstable Mutation
* ?
-

Edit: @rockout:

Between SFM, TNN and equipping this deck (other than UW Delver which you seem to have taken as a base to build from) appears quite mana hungry. That's why imo Daze doesn't belong - setting you back one essential turn can be back breaking. Cutting Daze however allows you to add Clique - I'm aware she has CMC3, but what she does is just what your deck seeks: another evasive beater that makes up for cutting on counter magic with a sweet bonus ability. Also: "flash" flows well with Stifle.

[rockout]

Edit: @rockout:

Between SFM, TNN and equipping this deck (other than UW Delver which you seem to have taken as a base to build from) appears quite mana hungry. That's why imo Daze doesn't belong - setting you back one essential turn can be back breaking. Cutting Daze however allows you to add Clique - I'm aware she has CMC3, but what she does is just what your deck seeks: another evasive beater that makes up for cutting on counter magic with a sweet bonus ability. Also: "flash" flows well with Stifle.

I agree my list is mana hungry. I like daze for being able to tap out on any one of my first 3 turns to lay a threat. I think just relying on force to resolve a TNN on t3 makes me cringe.

I agree with both of you that bant seems really strong. I have a list kicking around somewhere, but I don't think my buddy will be too happy if I post it. You are definitely on the right track with hierarch.

[Tormod]

Tormod, alright, let's ignore the fact that you clearly underestimate a light red splash for REB

Klaus,

I'm not underestimating REB, and I don't understand the need to make another nudge while welcoming me.

In good deck building there are steps. Adding red for a splash for REB is wrong at this point. Essentially putting the cart before the horse. In good brewing the goal is to develop the meat and potatoes of the deck. To focus on your key pieces which is TNN, SFM and your auxiliary and control cards that make it work and how it curves out. Then to develop a Mana base to power it. This deck is mana hungry with the key card of the deck being a 3 drop. So having stable mana is more important that starting with "REB is good, so lets play Volcanics." Which invariably makes the deck more susceptible to non-basic land hate (bloodmoon, wasteland)

Lets make sure the rest of the deck works first before determining the sideboard.

[Darkenslight]

Here's my devising:

Lands:

4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
4 Wasteland

Dudes:

4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Noble Hierarch

Spells:

3 Preordain
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Riding the Dilu Horse
4 Berserk

SB:

Meta-dependent.

[Albert]

We have a nice brewing going on here, good job!

I belive bant and current tempo shells will be the first iteration of tnn centric decks. (they are already starting http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/bug-top8-cdf-legacy-2/ , the 4 missing cards are tnns)

The point of my initial decklist was answering to this first wave of tnn decks.
- What does this last bant deck do against a golgari charm? ALL the creatures die to it at once (except a fliped delver)
- how do you make sure tnn will resolve? Vial is an option, there might be others.
- how do you make sure your oppnents tnn do not resolve? You will need all the rebs in the world.

What I am saying is that we should not be aiming at doing a very good overall tnn deck, we should already consider that tnn will dominate and then think what will be the best deck to prey on the remaining metagame.
We can discuss what will the metagame look like in the near future: I see tnn decks, combo to prey on those and miracles as a deck with game against both.

How do you think the meta will look like in 1 month time?
And what do you think we have to build to be better prepared for that meta?

[Darkenslight]

We have a nice brewing going on here, good job!

I belive bant and current tempo shells will be the first iteration of tnn centric decks. (they are already starting http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/bug-top8-cdf-legacy-2/ , the 4 missing cards are tnns)

The point of my initial decklist was answering to this first wave of tnn decks.
- What does this last bant deck do against a golgari charm? ALL the creatures die to it at once (except a fliped delver)
- how do you make sure tnn will resolve? Vial is an option, there might be others.
- how do you make sure your oppnents tnn do not resolve? You will need all the rebs in the world.

What I am saying is that we should not be aiming at doing a very good overall tnn deck, we should already consider that tnn will dominate and then think what will be the best deck to prey on the remaining metagame.
We can discuss what will the metagame look like in the near future: I see tnn decks, combo to prey on those and miracles as a deck with game against both.

How do you think the meta will look like in 1 month time?
And what do you think we have to build to be better prepared for that meta?

Alternatives include Ux control (where X can be black, white or even Red) as one of four finishers (others being Jace, the Wallet-Humper and a combo finish, like Helmline combo).

[frogger42]

I think this is an interesting thread, but I think people are viewing Nemesis in something of a vacuum. I do feel it's a great card, and probably in the top 5 of castable creatures, but I think comparing it to other castable creatures, or to removal, leads you to think it's a bit more powerful than it actually is. I think people are mainly comparing it on a card-by-card basis, Nemesis dodges this, blocks that. Etc.

Essentially, against similar blue decks, Nemesis will be a game-changer. It's got serious game against control (can't StoP it) and certain forms of Aggro (blocks Goyf), but legacy is the most INSANE format when it comes to decks. Because of the immense card selection, it's highly based on synergy and gameplan. So against BlueXx decks, it's going to be great. As it was mentioned, Nemesis will falter against combo. Let's broaden combo a bit:
Storm
Show and Tell
Reanimator
other stuff I can't think of

Also, some Legacy Aggro decks don't care about a 3/1 with evasion/ infinite blocking:

Elves
Goblins
Merfolk (if you have Islandwalk esp)
Affinity (all the flying, if that's still a deck)
Thopter Combo - if that's still around


I think you picked out that running SFM is highly synergetic with Nemesis, but if someone dumps down 12+ elves, a 3/1 even with a Jitte isn't enough to get through.

These are just some examples of where Nemesis isn't the bee's knees. (I also feel Wasteland/Tempo will shut you out of 3 mana for several turns). Essentially, I don't think you should run a strategy where you expect to copy Nemesis and ride a couple to victory. A 3/1 for 3 is too slow to depend on in the format, and I feel it's more of a support creature than a super-efficient finisher like Goyf or Delver.


I'd still say run it, and 4x it just to playtest and see where it falters (and where it succeeds). But practically speaking, I wouldn't run Images just for that guy. I wouldn't anticipate every blue deck wanting to run him either, so run removal (cut Ponders too, get StoPS and Bolts), and I'd cut the SofI because Jitte is more flexible, and usually one is enough. Side in the extra Sword against tougher aggro. That's my take on the guy, but it's good to see people are trying to brew him, because he definitely has a home in Legacy somewhere.

I personally would like to see Trinket Mage make a comeback for Engineered Explosives ;)

[klaus]

I'd cut the SofI because Jitte is more flexible, and usually one is enough. Side in the extra Sword against tougher aggro.

SoFI is the last piece of equipment that I would ever consider cutting in a deck featuring TNN. Connecting with it (which will always happen s'long as Nemesis Man wields it) is teh nuts: shooting critters (or sending 7 to the dome) while refilling your hand is hard to top.

[Albert]

Top 8 of a Bom trial, 114 players.

http://www.lotusnoir.info/top-8-decklists-bom-2-bye-trial-2013/

3 nemesis decks
3 combo
2 "regulars"

If the meta is moving in this direction how do you suggest to attack the format? How to further develop the best nemesis decks?

[Darkenslight]

Top 8 of a Bom trial, 114 players.

http://www.lotusnoir.info/top-8-decklists-bom-2-bye-trial-2013/

3 nemesis decks
3 combo
2 "regulars"

If the meta is moving in this direction how do you suggest to attack the format? How to further develop the best nemesis decks?

Golgari Charm
Nausea
Shrivel

Those are the cheap ones: Reanimator also has Access to the Ascendants (Evincar and Hero) to get rid of TNN.

[HammafistRoob]

I think you meant Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. But it's irrelevant since they could just kill you and ignore your dumb 3/1.

[Fatal]

I can forsee rather other direction of Legacy:

After this unthinkable print Legacy will probably goes to:

-Combo
-Full Control which can deal with TNN
-Deck which can deal with combo and TNN

where combo will loses vs Full Control

Both can deal with TNN or just ignore them - Tempo strategies can't deal with unremoveable wall, and answers for their threads in sort of removal (stack is probably best way to interact). So basically I would rather work on those decks.

So let's thinks about control which can deal with opposite TNN, and have answer to a Combo.

I think that U/x base is a nice start I even think about U/b/g control with Liliana / Loam Landstill with a Fleshed TNN backup (I'm talking about this spell wich pump and gives uncounterable. TNN is probably best answer vs opposite Plainwalkers which is a nightmare for controls.

For sure next months we will see TNN with anti-TNN decks packing Golgari Charms, E.Plague and EE with a hugh anti-combo package.

[frogger42]

Golgari Charm
Nausea
Shrivel

Those are the cheap ones: Reanimator also has Access to the Ascendants (Evincar and Hero) to get rid of TNN.

I think in MUs where a 3/1 Invincible for 3 mana is relevant (blue aggro-control, Jund, Mav, other Mid-range) they'll just try to run their own Nemeses and try to capitalize on it better than their opponent. Like SFM for equip, or Merfolk lords for pump. Jund and Mav already have answers - Liliana and Mother of Runes / SFM + Batterskull. Other mid-range decks without answers will probably cease to exist. But that's part of the game.

I think someone mentioned Engineered Plague, which is far better than Nausea and Shrivel. Golgari Charm is being run now, so I can see that getting played a bit more. I don't see any decks MD'ing any of this hate for Nemesis, and if your deck's especially vulnerable to it, you'll have to find a way around it - Edicts or whatever - or just lose that round and beef up your other MUs.

I've been trying to run a Mono-U control deck for a while, and this might give me cause to try it out. MD Back to Basics!

Now, if this were another Delver, we'd have reason to freak out. I think Nemesis is definitely going to mix things up for a few months.

[luckme10]

An easy way to think about this is the rule of 20:
If you want Aether Vial you'll need 20 creatures
If you want Force of Will, you'll need at least 20 blue spells
If you want Jace, at least 22 lands w/ brainstorm
I think Delver is around 27 instants or sorceries.
Can you make these work in 60 cards?

Vial creatures should be either stacked at one single cmc (ex. Meathooks) or along the sligh curve (Goblins).

I really can see some vial esper deck coming out of this:
Snapcaster, Stoneforge, and Nemesis really are the building blocks for another esper tempo vial deck. It'll probably become some death and taxes/ flickerwisp hybrid using baleful strix or something.

[trollking21]

Kind of where I'm its a hybrid between shard less BUG and what you guys are running but a turn 2 nemesis is bonkers as is a turn 2 shard less agent into stoneforge or goyf.
//Artifact (2)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Creature (19)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Shardless Agent
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

//Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

//Instant (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sorcery (4)
4 Ancestral Vision

//Land (21)
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique

[Cire]

An easy way to think about this is the rule of 20:
If you want Aether Vial you'll need 20 creatures
If you want Force of Will, you'll need at least 20 blue spells
If you want Jace, at least 22 lands w/ brainstorm
I think Delver is around 27 instants or sorceries.
Can you make these work in 60 cards?


*Totally Random*
Obviously you can't fit it into 60 cards. . . but I was just really curious what the bare minimum cards in a deck if any could contain this? Assuming the blue requirement can be done easily. . . the rest of the requirements translate into:
Aether Vial you need creatures equal to 1/3 of the deck
For Jace you need 11/30 lands + 4 copies of Jace
For Delver you need 9/20 Spells (the delver will be in the creatures)
Now I am not really all that great at math . . . but. . . if this was written as algebraic notation to find the correct deck size needed, would it be written out like this?:
A(ethervial) = (X/3) where X is the amount of cards in the deck
J(ace) = (11X/30) + 4) where X is the amount of cards in the deck
D(elver) = (9X/20) where X is the amount of cards in the deck
X = A + J + D
X = (X/3) + (11X/30) + (9X/20) + 4
Is that formula wrong? Because I got a negative number?
Does this mean that this is just blankly impossible?
*Totally Random*

[trollking21]

*Totally Random*
Obviously you can't fit it into 60 cards. . . but I was just really curious what the bare minimum cards in a deck if any could contain this? Assuming the blue requirement can be done easily. . . the rest of the requirements translate into:
Aether Vial you need creatures equal to 1/3 of the deck
For Jace you need 11/30 lands + 4 copies of Jace
For Delver you need 9/20 Spells (the delver will be in the creatures)
Now I am not really all that great at math . . . but. . . if this was written as algebraic notation to find the correct deck size needed, would it be written out like this?:
A(ethervial) = (X/3) where X is the amount of cards in the deck
J(ace) = (11X/30) + 4) where X is the amount of cards in the deck
D(elver) = (9X/20) where X is the amount of cards in the deck
X = A + J + D
X = (X/3) + (11X/30) + (9X/20) + 4
Is that formula wrong? Because I got a negative number?
Does this mean that this is just blankly impossible?
*Totally Random*


22 lands
+ 20 creatures
+26 spells
+4 have
=70 cards
So no you can't do it all

[Cire]

Actually it would be a +8 for Vial and Jace . .. . .i don't know why I missed that. . . still. . . don't know why my formula doesn't work . . . just bad at math. . . and 70 (or 74) still doesn't work since that doesn't follow the same ratio that those cards need. I hundred percent know it wont work for 60 - I just wanted to know if a number existed that would allow those ratio's. . . .

[trollking21]

A ration simply won't exist. Just accounting for lands spells and dudes you get over 60 so you'll always get over 100%

Also any comments to the list I posted?

[anwei]

Is that formula wrong? Because I got a negative number?
Does this mean that this is just blankly impossible?

It's most wrong in the sense that it isn't the right way to do actual analysis of "how would this work." It's answering "How big would my deck have to be in order to have 33% creatures for vial, 37% lands for Jace, 45% spells for Delver, and 4 brainstorms?"
First, that's more than 100%, so you don't need any algebra, you can just solve, and second, playing 60 cards is a restriction (not part of the question). Also, you counted brainstorm twice - as a Jace card and a spell.

Just count them - 20 dudes+22 land+27 spells is no good. I guess you could "cheat" by running Dryad Arbor as Creature/Land and GSZ/Dorks as more sources for Jace, but, yeah - this isn't where you want to be.

[raudo]

I think the way to go is a bit slower approach. Fewer creatures. More Jaces, countermagic and Counterbalances.

Creature core only

4x True-name Nemesis
4x Stoneforge Mystic
Bubbling under: Snapcaster Mage

[Poron]

I don't understand the point of your lists :|

TNN with SoFI deals 7 damages per turn + 1 draw.
It seems to me an already decent clock

SFM + TNN should be the core, the rest of the deck is just tempo (imho)

[Imperial]

I really like the deck idea, but when can we start calling TNN Nemo?

[Luklinda]

I don't understand the point of your lists :|

TNN with SoFI deals 7 damages per turn + 1 draw.
It seems to me an already decent clock

SFM + TNN should be the core, the rest of the deck is just tempo (imho)

TNN + SoFI:

3 mana + 3 mana + 2 equip = 8 mana investment for a three turn clock that draws a card per turn - that starts turn 4 with a mana dork, turn 5 without ramping...

anything you can do griselbrand can do better.

In all honesty though, 3 mana is a lot for a tempo deck to consistently hit to get it's beater online.

[rockout]

I really like the deck idea, but when can we start calling TNN Nemo?

Please god no.