Magic - the Cheatering

[Humphrey]

While I was watching the tournament marathon this weekend (Eternal Champs and BoM), I noticed many many "mistakes".
Players
-trying to respond to trigger, they cant (Orchard in resp to Oath)
-drawing 3 cards with BS, putting none back
-using sick creatures (not only in the finals)

and many more. (Paper)Magic has become or always was a game of cheating.

Bertoncini was a good mentor it seems


The rules need to be a lot more strict. If a player produces a gamestate error or is trying to resolve illegal actions, he should get a gameloss.
If youre playing on high level tournaments, you should know and follow the rules and keep track on the game. It might not be always cheating, but
all those rewinds are stupid, in what sport you can rewind your mistakes? They didnt even get warnings for this.

"Sry I scored an own goal, I didnt know it was the wrong one" - "No problem, we take it back"

I can remember, back in the day, we didnt even allow to untap lands and got mana burn then.

[JDK]

They didnt even get warnings for this.
If it gets caught (and they call a judge), the judge will hand out warnings or infractions.

I don't think you should get a gameloss for every mistake, unless you repeat those mistakes (intentionally or not).

Your comparison to other sports/games is shortsighted. In MTG you get a warning or an infraction as 'punishment', in football the own goal is part of the game (it's a legal action) and 'punishment' itself. A more appropriate analogy would be casting Innocent Blood accidentally, when you have a Griselbrand on the field and your opponent nothing. You cannot "take it back". Anyway, it's a far stretch to compare different games and their rules...

[Arsenal]

In professional sports, it's exactly that, a team full of professional experts at their respective craft. In CCG tournaments, not every participant is a professional; to expect that level of play out of each any every participant is a lot to ask for.

[Koby]

Magic is a hard game of mental exercise. It's not uncommon for mistakes to occur, unbeknownst to both players and the judging staff.
It's one thing to be actively cheating, and another to be misplaying.

Cheating is judged by the intent of the player committing the violation through investigation. Equating knowingly playing multiple lands per turn to missing a trigger 40 minutes into an intense game is disingenuous.

RE: Oath of Druids -

10/1/2009: The targeted player controlling more creatures than the current player is a part of the targeting requirement. A player can't be targeted by this ability unless it's true, and the ability will be countered on resolution if it's no longer true at that time.

Oath of Druids will only trigger if a player has fewer creatures than an opponent. It will go on the stack. Then, upon resolution, it will check again. If creatures are at parity, the trigger will fail. What you described can and does happen as it should.

[danyul]

Legitimate errors and cheating are two very, very different things. We are humans trying to adhere to a game of rules. Look at humans at the highest levels of rules enforcement - government. They mess up all the time. How can you expect a regular dude playing a card game for funsies to be a perfect paragon of professional play when other people, who are paid to live by rules, also cannot do so? I don't mean to throw a red herring at this argument or anything, but the idea that we should all play perfectly seems misguided to begin with.

Humans are playing this game. Humans make mistakes. If you don't want to play this game with humans, or any game with mistake-prone meatbags, then you might prefer something more clean, perfect, and pure like...I dunno...Solitaire or Final Fantasy XXX: Anime Island.

[Arsenal]

Also, in professional sports, mistakes do get undone. Instant replay overturns mistakes. When a player does make a mistake, there's a punishment comiserate to the infraction. What the OP suggesting is analogous to a NFL game where the defense has 12 men on the field... then the referee awards the game win to the opponent.

[phonics]

Also, in professional sports, mistakes do get undone. Instant replay overturns mistakes. When a player does make a mistake, there's a punishment comiserate to the infraction. What the OP suggesting is analogous to a NFL game where the defense has 12 men on the field... then the referee awards the game win to the opponent.

Just look at the nba during the playoffs and you will see refball everywhere, people dive in football because they hope the ref will make a mistake. Any competitive activity that isnt enforced in a black and white manner (like modo) will have this sort of thing.

[sdematt]

While people make mistakes in Magic, I agree certain actions are quite bad. The Brainstorm one is a good example, and it's why I always ask my blue opponents to count back the cards being put on top of their library, and I do the same. I know it doesn't help when you're viewing it through a stream, but in all honesty, if they have to make a Sylvan Library announcement at every Star City I've been to, make a Brainstorm announcement too. Depending on the sleeves and the pace of the game, it can be hard to see how many cards someone puts back.

-Matt

[TsumiBand]

While people make mistakes in Magic, I agree certain actions are quite bad. The Brainstorm one is a good example, and it's why I always ask my blue opponents to count back the cards being put on top of their library, and I do the same. I know it doesn't help when you're viewing it through a stream, but in all honesty, if they have to make a Sylvan Library announcement at every Star City I've been to, make a Brainstorm announcement too. Depending on the sleeves and the pace of the game, it can be hard to see how many cards someone puts back.

-Matt

It started with some recent footage of someone Brainstorming for 4, but I've noted that many "high-level" players will make allllll kiiiiiinds of shitty shortcuts. It's one thing to shortcut a draw-go or an attack step, but shortcutting physical iterative actions that aren't part of an infinite loop is IMHO unacceptable.

I'm sure that it is just a residue of honing their craft or whatever, but like... bear-pawing 3 cards off the top when you quickly draw 3 and put 2 back, to me, just opens up the potential for questions to be asked, right? I get that everyone at that level is well-reheared in going through the motions, but why would you ever obfuscate the number of drawn cards by reducing it down to an indeterminate motion? I know it speeds up the game or whatever, but God, just demonstrate clearly that you have in fact drawn exactly the correct number of cards per the effect causing you to do so.

It's like how it's supposed to be bad form to show magic tricks to your Poker buds. Is that really what you want to be doing -- pulling your friend's card out of their own wallet before a game of Texas Hold 'Em? Everybody just show their actions plainly, roll their sleeves up and relax -- remove that whole dynamic from the game. It's useless.

[lordofthepit]

Do you know what cheating means?

I'm all for harsher penalties on cheaters, but you don't start by classifying unintentional errors as such.

[Quasim0ff]

ATT attacking with Sum Sickness creatures in the finals:

https://twitter.com/shaharshenhar/status/397144363513704448

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!/page87

[Megadeus]

Agreed. Mistakes happen. I sure as hell am super guilty of mistakes. I fetch and accidentally record it as life gain, my opponents life loss, and even forget sometimes. Shit happens. If mistakes keep being made like this then slow down, but you can't just claim someone is cheating late in a long tourney just because a mistake is made. No one is perfect. Except Reid Duke it seems.

[PirateKing]

What about the players, who are by no means scarce, who count out every drawn card face down before they look at it. Brainstorm is 1-2-3 face down on the table, pick up, look over, 1-2 face down on the table, then on top of the library. I agree these players who develop Brainstorm muscle memory do it without thinking, but I've seen just as many careful habits as I've seen sloppy habits. Which as others have said is not an indication of cheating, but sloppy play does make things harder to follow. If you stack all your lands into one large pile along with your FTV Dryad Arbor, I'm not going to call foul, but I am going to be put on edge.

That being said, these small mistakes that are being made in the finals of large tournaments, a lot of them are 1 day events, these people have been playing since 10am straight.

[Megadeus]

Ah FTV Dryad Arbor... I will admit that I have won a game because he was in my yard and my opponent had an active Scooze and didnt realize he could put his Scooze out of PFire range by eating the Arbor. Card is so super cheaty.

[Phoenix Ignition]

This is actually one of the reasons I like MTGO better for competitive play (although I miss the social aspect, but hey, if I'm playing exclusively to win I'm fine with not making friends).

The biggest "cheating" I see all the time is slow play, but it's also the hardest to actually check. It can even be legal slow play, though, like people taking the normal allotted amount of time to shuffle a deck, or doing things that don't really help (like cracking 1 fetch land at the start of the opponent's turn and one at the end, possibly to bluff extra mana for something but also possibly to avoid shortcutting the shuffle into 1 instead of 2 times). They are legal things to do, but it can be with the intent to draw out a matchup, like if you play miracles and won the first game.

This is my favorite part of Magic Online, they give you the equivalent of a chess timer set to 25 minutes. If you want to play a deck like Miracles, you're welcome to, just make sure you don't play extremely slowly. I've never run out of time without being AFK, even though I play really grindy decks that have 1 win condition (Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas). The opponent can't stall and win a match, the only thing stalling does is waste your own timer.

Having chess timers in a normal paper magic match would be incredibly difficult to integrate now. You get a chance to respond to everything, so after pretty much every action you'd have to both hit the button. This may not be such a bad thing, though, because you'd have irrevocable proof that you decided to not counter a spell, instead of the often horrible version of, "yep"... "No, I was just saying yep like I was going to counter it with this card, not that you got to resolve it."

It might also stop stuff like people missing their Living Weapon triggers and promptly losing the game because of it. But it would be hard and a lot of work, so won't happen.

[Barook]

Except Reid Duke it seems.
I agree with Phoenix Ignition here.

MODO is great to sharpen your sense for rules, triggers, etc.

That's probably one of the main reasons Reid Duke has such great mechanics - he grinded like a madman on MODO before making the jump into the Paper scene. It really shows when you watch his games.

[Koby]

That's probably one of the main reasons Reid Duke has such great mechanics - he grinded like a madman on MODO before making the jump into the Paper scene. It really shows when you watch his games.

Hrmm... that's not true at all. He's been playing for 20 years...

[JDK]

I mostly agree with Phoenix Ignition, but MODO has the disadvantage of not allowing shortcuts. For example "going infinite" with Pod or Kiki-Jiki, which steal a significant amount of time (e.g. when you are playing against crappy lifegain decks or your opponent is messing with his pauses of passing priority). These things could become implemented, though.

[Megadeus]

I played MTGO for like 2 months before I jumped into competitive play, and I will say that I think it helped me become a better player.

[Barook]

Hrmm... that's not true at all. He's been playing for 20 years...
Actually, he started playing with 5 years:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/activity/1126

Doesn't change the fact that he grinded MODO for years before making a jump into the actual paper scene.

[TsumiBand]

Do you know what cheating means?

I'm all for harsher penalties on cheaters, but you don't start by classifying unintentional errors as such.

So, there's attacking with a creature with summoning sickness, and then there's two Explores.

The OP didn't post a link, but they did say which tournament it was so there's ample opportunity to dig deeper. Maybe there are some video matches worth analyzing, I have no idea. But really, it seems like there are habits which are more conducive to keeping the game state correct, and some which are more prone to producing an incorrect game state. Ham-fisting your Brainstorm draws is one of them. I cannot fucking stand that when it's a non-casual game; call me a hater or whatever but there's always some lug with monster hands that can palm Pringles can like I palm a quarter, and he draws all three cards in one swift motion and pulls it into his hand real fast. It's like watching David Copperfield doing some sleight of hand after having a bad reaction to shellfish; I have no literal idea what the fuck just happened, there's just extra cards in dude's hand.

When there's something tangible on the line, people should try to straighten up and fly right, I think. You fan those cards on the table before you draw them, one card at a time so my four-eyed ass can see it happen. Of course I expect that; why wouldn't you want your opponent to demonstrate drawing cards? I'm in the "fuck you, kill me" camp too, I don't care about your soft Enchantress lock; end the bloody game. Demonstrate your flipping game actions! Gahhh!

[nedleeds]

If I pay $40 and am playing a Competitive REL event and am not in the X-3 bracket waiting to go drink I call a judge on every GRV. The judge staff has a record of GRVs. If everyone did this you'd know who the cheaters were pretty quickly, and the shitty players would learn to correct their play. I called a judge on myself for missing my own Mana Crypt i.e. Lightning Bolt Machine on Sunday. It's a detrimental trigger and I got a GRV. The end.

[SpikeyMikey]

Saturday, at the TCG 50K, I didn't hand out a single penalty. First time in my life that has ever happened. If we handed out GLs for every infraction, upgrade path would have us DQing dozens of people at every tournament. Mistakes happen. We all miss shit. I've missed shit on matches I was watching and I have nothing better to do than look for infractions.

[Humphrey]

Im not talking about Mass-DQing people at your FNM. Im talking about high level tournaments, where you can win a few thousand dollars.
Mistakes happen of course, but than you have to live with the consequences. And there will always be the guys who want to win, no matter how. The reward when cheating is much higher than the risk. (illegal actions stay unnoticed, people not calling judges, collecting warnings for different fractions)

Id rather lose a game, because I made a mistake, than to suspect that cheating is required or helps to win tournaments.

[thecrav]

If I pay $40 and am playing a Competitive REL event and am not in the X-3 bracket waiting to go drink I call a judge on every GRV. The judge staff has a record of GRVs. If everyone did this you'd know who the cheaters were pretty quickly, and the shitty players would learn to correct their play. I called a judge on myself for missing my own Mana Crypt i.e. Lightning Bolt Machine on Sunday. It's a detrimental trigger and I got a GRV. The end.

This is an important thing to note. Penalties become more severe the more times a player breaks a rule. If you're not calling a judge every time someone commits a GRV, you're hurting the next person they GRV against.

A really common one seems to be attacking with creatures that can't. Summoning Sick, Ensaring Bridge, Moat, etc

[Quasim0ff]

If I pay $40 and am playing a Competitive REL event and am not in the X-3 bracket waiting to go drink I call a judge on every GRV. The judge staff has a record of GRVs. If everyone did this you'd know who the cheaters were pretty quickly, and the shitty players would learn to correct their play. I called a judge on myself for missing my own Mana Crypt i.e. Lightning Bolt Machine on Sunday. It's a detrimental trigger and I got a GRV. The end.
This is also true for slow play!

If your opponent is using too much time, ask him to fasten his pace and if he doesn't call a judge to ask for slow play!

[Luklinda]

Slow play can be really hard to define... I spent well over an hour on game 1, match 1 of quarterfinals in a legacy side event at a GP. The other half of the bracket was finished through up to the finals before we'd finished our first game... Three judges rotating in/out of watching the game and no slow play rulings; who plays astral slide anyway?



Actually, he started playing when he was 5 years old:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/activity/1126

Doesn't change the fact that he grinded MODO for years before making a jump into the actual paper scene.

Fixed that for you.

[Lemnear]

This is also true for slow play!

If your opponent is using too much time, ask him to fasten his pace and if he doesn't call a judge to ask for slow play!

I beg to differ. I had opponents thinking about declaring attackers for a Minute and then calling for a Judge to Penalty me for slow-play during my Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames loop instead of just scooping

[Arsenal]

I guess I don't understand why the OP is suggesting that the offender gets an auto-game loss for any infraction. That doesn't even make any sense. If the referee of a football game penalized the Atlanta Falcons for having 12 men on the field, then says "due to the defense's infraction, the Carolina Panthers WIN THE GAME", what would you think?

[JDK]

I beg to differ. I had opponents thinking about declaring attackers for a Minute and then calling for a Judge to Penalty me for slow-play during my Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames loop instead of just scooping

In GP Ghent's side-event I played against a Miracle player who took minutes to rearrange his lands (clearly slow-play, but I didn't care much at that time and just told him to speed up after doing it several times), then, as soon as he draws an out to my Vortex he calls me out for being too slow when I thought about which cards to keep after a Brainstorm (or Ponder). Needless to say, the match ended in my only draw the whole weekend...and made me a Miracle hater.

[Anusien]

To be disqualified for Cheating requires an intent to gain advantage from it either by intentionally committing the error, or noticing the error and not pointing it out to a judge.The vast majority of errors are unintentional. Players, especially when they're distracted with thinking the next turn ahead or because they're about to win, make all kinds of minor mistakes. I guarantee no one in this thread has played a full tournament without unintentionally violating the game rules in some way.

To OP's point, the greatest tool in a judge's arsenal for catching cheaters are wary players who bring issues to our attention. If your opponent did something shady and I never found about it, I never have the opportunity to ask them some pointed questions.

[alphastryk]

In GP Ghent's side-event I played against a Miracle player who took minutes to rearrange his lands (clearly slow-play, but I didn't care much at that time and just told him to speed up after doing it several times), then, as soon as he draws an out to my Vortex he calls me out for being too slow when I thought about which cards to keep after a Brainstorm (or Ponder). Needless to say, the match ended in my only draw the whole weekend...and made me a Miracle hater.

Sorry. I promise most Miracles players aren't that way. I've found that most experienced ones are very, very fast players. I finished two mirrors at Legacy Champs with more than 20 minutes left in the round.

[Quasim0ff]

I beg to differ. I had opponents thinking about declaring attackers for a Minute and then calling for a Judge to Penalty me for slow-play during my Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames loop instead of just scooping
Obviously not in every case, and I don't mean when evaluating difficult boardstates/plays.
I mean the ones that use 10-20 seconds on each top activarion, 10 seconds each ponder etc. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[JDK]

Sorry. I promise most Miracles players aren't that way. I've found that most experienced ones are very, very fast players. I finished two mirrors at Legacy Champs with more than 20 minutes left in the round.
Lol, not your fault. ^^

Problem is, most people aren't the "experienced" ones. That's not the only issue, though. I know several people who play Miracles at a fast pace, but sometimes the deck just takes eons to find a wincon.
It's like Miracles produces a "Brainstorm" overload for some people (Brainstorm, Top and Jace) and they add up so much time due to a lack of experience or being able to evaluate boardstates etc.

I guess I am biased, but in Modern they banned Top partially due to it's slow-play nature and Second Sunrise (*sadface*) also got axed for consuming too much time in inexperience hands.

Sometimes it's not even a lack of experience, some people just play extremely slow. :frown:

[alphastryk]

Lol, not your fault. ^^

Problem is, most people aren't the "experienced" ones. That's not the only issue, though. I know several people who play Miracles at a fast pace, but sometimes the deck just takes eons to find a wincon.
It's like Miracles produces a "Brainstorm" overload for some people (Brainstorm, Top and Jace) and they add up so much time due to a lack of experience or being able to evaluate boardstates etc.

I guess I am biased, but in Modern they banned Top partially due to it's slow-play nature and Second Sunrise (*sadface*) also got axed for consuming too much time in inexperience hands.

Sometimes it's not even a lack of experience, some people just play extremely slow. :frown:

Yeah, true. You need to know what the plan is at all times, and it takes a while to know what cards matter when. Some people are definitely just slow though.

I know that's why top is banned in Modern. :(

[ReAnimator]

So playing under a camera and being nervous counts for nothing?

People are willfully cheating ON CAMERA all the time? and it's wide spread and prevalent?

Get out of here OP you are drunk.

[Humphrey]

So playing under a camera and being nervous counts for nothing?

People are willfully cheating ON CAMERA all the time? and it's wide spread and prevalent?

Get out of here OP you are drunk.


http://youtu.be/_ZYQh6TR-hQ

Im not saying everybody cheats, but I say that cheates have an easy game under the current rules.

[Darkenslight]

http://youtu.be/_ZYQh6TR-hQ

Im not saying everybody cheats, but I say that cheates have an easy game under the current rules.

Ah, yes - Bertoncheaty's Kira, the Great Glass Bouncer.

But yes, there will be people who chest intentionally at the top level: not because it's high-stakes Poker, but because it's almost ubiquitous that some highly-skilled players will cheat.

[ReAnimator]

Im not saying everybody cheats, but I say that cheates have an easy game under the current rules.

I think you missed the point of what i said. You were essentially accusing literally everyone at a high level and lower levels too, to be wilfully cheating on camera, which is super ludicrous. The proof you provided is the one person who has done this and got caught for doing it, and you think people are purposefully emulating his behaviour?

I remember playing back in the day where you couldn't undo untaps etc, and it was when cheating was most rampant and thrived, and the game wasn't about skill but about who could skate the rules the most or make your opponent nervous or miss something. Magic is in a way better way more fun and fair place now than it was back then, and history backs this up in every way.

You act as if there aren't penalties and the judges arent' doing their job, you realize LSV got a game loss in a game he had already won last year on the pro tour for drawing and extra card right? He even called the judges himself, it's not like these rules arent' in place, you just might not be happy with how they are being applied and handled, i get that but think you are way off base.
How do you know the people on camera weren't given warnings? but it was done verbally without slowing down the action on camera? Maybe the judges realize that playing with a big crowd or on camera makes people super nervous and there is almost no gain to actually cheating in those circumstances and act accordingly?

[JDK]

So Bertoncini counts as "all the time"?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I beg to differ. I had opponents thinking about declaring attackers for a Minute and then calling for a Judge to Penalty me for slow-play during my Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames loop instead of just scooping

I hope that the judges slapped them in face.

[Lemnear]

I hope that the judges slapped them in face.

Nope, i just decided to play around much longer as necessary just for the Grapeshot ^^

[apple713]

Sorry. I promise most Miracles players aren't that way. I've found that most experienced ones are very, very fast players. I finished two mirrors at Legacy Champs with more than 20 minutes left in the round.

i think players like Bertoncini should be banned for life. When you make several infractions intentionally you should lose your privilege to play the game.

I had an opponent this weekend INTENTIONALLY missing an ancestral vision suspend trigger...the counters magically stopped getting removed once it got to 1 counter. I called the judge and the judge was reluctant to undo his draw and resolve the missed trigger until i explained the situation. It was obviously intentional because he didn't want to draw cards. He had missed several turns of this trigger. He had an ensnaring bridge in play and 6 cards in hand and I had a griselbrand in play waiting to attack him. He was drawing dead because i had a blood moon in play. In cases like that i think he should have gotten a game loss. He did end up losing the game but the judge should have gave it to him for manipulating the rules as part of game strategy..."if i just pretend to miss this trigger i'll eek out a couple of turns and hope to throw the game into a draw"

i agree with the OP, there needs to be harsher punishments for intentional infractions.

[Humphrey]

well the problem is. how do you know its intentional or not? A skilled cheater will let it look like sloppy play. So either you tighten the rules for all players or you accept that shady behaviour will get them into top8


http://www.twitch.tv/lotusnoirtv/b/475863316?t=78m38s

Im to lazy to find the other "misplays"

[Luklinda]

well the problem is. how do you know its intentional or not? A skilled cheater will let it look like sloppy play. So either you tighten the rules for all players or you accept that shady behaviour will get them into top8


http://www.twitch.tv/lotusnoirtv/b/475863316?t=78m38s

Im to lazy to find the other "misplays"

Wait... Brainstorm isn't a draw three for U?

[Arsenal]

@ Humphrey

You still have not responded to my statement. In your OP, you state that you want an auto-loss for any infraction. Also in your OP, you use a sports example to support your suggestion. To this, using a sports example as well, I'd say this:

If the Carolina Panthers are on offense and the Atlanta Falcons are on defense, and the Falcons get called for having 12 men on the field (rules infraction), using your logic, you'd want the referee to state "Due to the defense having 12 men on the field, instead of the normal 5 yard penalty, the Carolina Panthers win the game. Everyone can go home now".

Now what do yo have to say about that? Again, your OP wants a game-loss for any infraction. What's the difference between your desire and the above hypothetical scenario?

[PirateKing]

The only difference between cheating and poor play is intent. But really both are equally egregious. People just need to be less timid about calling out their opponents for manhandling the top of their deck every Brainstorm. Call a judge, either they're a cheater or they're a slob, and the outcomes are either they'll be caught a cheater, or learn to clean up their slobby game, or quit because they don't possess the fine dexterity to handle cards. All of these things are good endings.

[Ziveeman]

The only difference between cheating and poor play is intent. But really both are equally egregious. People just need to be less timid about calling out their opponents for manhandling the top of their deck every Brainstorm. Call a judge, either they're a cheater or they're a slob, and the outcomes are either they'll be caught a cheater, or learn to clean up their slobby game, or quit because they don't possess the fine dexterity to handle cards. All of these things are good endings.

It's not as easy to say "clean up your game", because being mentally exhausted is a huge factor in poor play. By the end of SCG LA I was forgetting to write down life loss due to Thoughtseize and fetchlands and got a warning for doing something completely stupid. I would have never made those mistakes at the beginning of the day, but playing for nearly 11 hours can really take a toll.

[dunk]

10/1/2009: The targeted player controlling more creatures than the current player is a part of the targeting requirement. A player can't be targeted by this ability unless it's true, and the ability will be countered on resolution if it's no longer true at that time.

Oath of Druids will only trigger if a player has fewer creatures than an opponent. It will go on the stack. Then, upon resolution, it will check again. If creatures are at parity, the trigger will fail. What you described can and does happen as it should.


It doesn't work this way on Magic Online. Oath goes on the stack and if there is parity it fizzles with split second. No way to respond to it. And it always has been this way, so I don't think it's a bug... Maybe Humphrey should have described the situation better.


Best thing that happened at the BOM though was when a previous GP winner tried to use Mother of Runes with haste. Guy must have smoked a really fat joint before the match, or how else can you "forget" about that? I don't even think he got a warning for that, the judge only pointed out that Mum has summoning sickness...

[PirateKing]

It's not as easy to say "clean up your game", because being mentally exhausted is a huge factor in poor play. By the end of SCG LA I was forgetting to write down life loss due to Thoughtseize and fetchlands and got a warning for doing something completely stupid. I would have never made those mistakes at the beginning of the day, but playing for nearly 11 hours can really take a toll.

Saying "clean up your game" is incredibly easy, but doing that, okay point taken. And I think players with an accurate sense of tournaments understand that in these single day events endurance is as much a factor as deck construction. My thoughts are not without caveats, and 11 hours of straight play is certainly reason to excuse mistakes, and it seems you were warned for it, and so the system works, no complaints.

The real fallacy with comparing Magic to professional sports is that there is no professionalism in the game. It is by nature an amateur endeavor by all. Even the biggest phenom in sports will be subject to training, camps, practice and follow established avenues of success to achieve at whatever they are doing. Anyone who has played a sport will know that they drill through you the most basic steps until they consider teaching you further. We had to know how to tie our cleats up before they taught us how to slide into base. Hold the bat before you swing, whatever.

Magic has none of that, there is no spring training to learn how to shuffle, or Brainstorm, or properly announce spells, or any of the basic components of the game. Just a legal decklist, basic comprehension of the rules, and you could be champion, ham-fisting all the way. And without anybody telling them otherwise, they'd have no clue.

[danyul]

^This.

People learn through penalties and infractions and judge calls and all that. They get a slap on the wrist and learn their lesson, hopefully to never do it again.

The only thing people would learn with penalties as harsh as the OP is calling for is a hatred for rules enforcement. Judges have enough BS to deal with. Let's not turn the playerbase against them by making judges deal out gamelosses for simple things.

And yes, this creates an environment where cheating is a thing. But it is impossible to do away with that sort of behavior entirely. People will cheat. In this and any and every game. The rules have accounted for that and a structure is in place to deal with it. Trying to beat up on players with good intentions, who make honest mistakes, is not the correct way to address this particular problem.

[phonics]

i think players like Bertoncini should be banned for life. When you make several infractions intentionally you should lose your privilege to play the game.

I had an opponent this weekend INTENTIONALLY missing an ancestral vision suspend trigger...the counters magically stopped getting removed once it got to 1 counter. I called the judge and the judge was reluctant to undo his draw and resolve the missed trigger until i explained the situation. It was obviously intentional because he didn't want to draw cards. He had missed several turns of this trigger. He had an ensnaring bridge in play and 6 cards in hand and I had a griselbrand in play waiting to attack him. He was drawing dead because i had a blood moon in play. In cases like that i think he should have gotten a game loss. He did end up losing the game but the judge should have gave it to him for manipulating the rules as part of game strategy..."if i just pretend to miss this trigger i'll eek out a couple of turns and hope to throw the game into a draw"

i agree with the OP, there needs to be harsher punishments for intentional infractions.

In that case couldn't you remind him of the trigger, making him obliged to make it occur? I thought that missed triggers were only really 'missed' if neither player pointed it out.

[Norm]

So Bertoncini counts as "all the time"?

Poor example by OP, indeed. I recall a few high profile players who were caught cheating and punished with DCI bans (Fuentes anyone?) but it certainly doesn't mean cheaters are running rampant. I'd be very surprised if someone attempts to cheat vs me at the GP and if that's the common mentality then I don't see a problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[ScatmanX]

In that case couldn't you remind him of the trigger, making him obliged to make it occur? I thought that missed triggers were only really 'missed' if neither player pointed it out.
Yes, he could.

[ramanujan]

I personally think that cheating in important events, especially in the early rounds when judges are much more outnumbered, is rampant. The amazing thing here is that we are discussing things that can be seen, like drawing three off of brainstorm or forgetting triggers. Personally, I think that there is a lot of false shuffles, marking, not drawing the top card, drawing multiple cards in one step, and hiding cards that happens. Those things are really difficult to detect.

The judges at MTG events, although knowledgeable about the game, are not experts at catching cheats. Intent makes the issue even more complex on the stuff you guys are seeing on the videos. Does everyone here know that people get away with cheating at cards in Vegas all the time. Sometimes they get caught, but usually after a long time. There is no feasible way to prevent cheating in our game with physical cards with the resources that are available. It is one of the secrets that TOs and judges would like to ignore.

There are some things we could suggest doing to reduce the chance of cheating, but they would remove a lot of the feel of the game.

We could have a clock with a 2 second delay and N minutes per player per round, it is used often enough in chess. This would remove some of the stalling risk. Rules would need to be designed around priority, shuffles, and sideboarding. This seems like it would solve a problem but I promise that it would create many many more.

We could make change the way that cards are drawn and how decks are shuffled. Essentially we could make your opponent shuffle and deal cards from your deck. This would significantly reduce many kinds of cheating. It would also mean that you have to trust your opponent with your property for more than just shuffle cuts. This would make the game much more serious.

In the end Magic is a casual thing. In the highest level of play there is no fairness in thinking time, unlike chess, checkers, go, scrabble. In addition, you deal cards to yourself and everyone is okay with that for some reason.

Magic, even at the highest level, is a fun casual game.

[PirateKing]

In addition, you deal cards to yourself and everyone is okay with that for some reason.

Funny how if you did the exact opposite, your opponents would be put completely on edge, like you're about to do a (pun forced) magic trick.

As everyone can see, nothing up my sleeve, first I cast Ad Nauseam, now then please put the top card of the deck face up until I tell you to stop. Taadaa, you're dead!

[Norm]

Funny how if you did the exact opposite, your opponents would be put completely on edge, like you're about to do a (pun forced) magic trick.

As everyone can see, nothing up my sleeve, first I cast Ad Nauseam, now then please put the top card of the deck face up until I tell you to stop. Taadaa, you're dead!

That last part made me spit out my drink, thanks :)

[Phoenix Ignition]

Look guys, it's another scandal with our favorite player!
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/22j13m/what_happened_in_phoenix_a_firsthand_account_of/

Text for those who don't want to click things:

I thought I would share what I witnessed at Grand Prix Phoenix this past weekend. I've seen a lot of crazy rumors on twitter and the internet, so out of fairness to Alex I think it makes sense to just get the facts out there.



In Round 12, I was easily defeated by the amiable Florian Koch at Table 41. Next to us, at Table 42, Chris LaVassaur was locked in battle with Alex Bertoncini. As I packed my deck, dice, and pen into my bag, Alex cast the spell Supreme Verdict, wiping Chris's board and leaving Chris with only Mutavault to attack Alex. I noticed that Alex had tapped three blue and one white mana for his Verdict, leaving up another white mana and Mutavault.



I immediately informed Alex that he needed two white for his Verdict and then started to walk away.



Although I don't know Alex personally, his reputation precedes him, so I decided to quickly check out Alex's hand to confirm that this was an honest mistake. As soon as I walked behind him, I noticed the card he had at the front of his hand: Last Breath.



I sprinted to the head judge to let her know what I had witnessed and suggest that they pause the match and investigate. Although I don't know all the details of the on-site investigation, Alex was not assessed a penalty.



It's virtually impossible to prove intent in situations like this, but the combination of a simple board state, motive (the Last Breath vs. opposing Mutavault) and the player's reputation set off alarm bells in my head.



Unfortunately, I don't have information such as life totals, what game it was, or other context. And I made a critical mistake by not forcing the players to pause the match while I got a judge. My instinct was just to run to someone wearing a red shirt, and I followed it.



Please take two things away from this:

1. Protect yourself at all times and please don't be offended when your opponent does the same. Holding your opponent to a high technical standard and calling judges for seemingly minor infractions doesn't mean you are accusing them of cheating. It's making the world a better place.

2. If you see something that doesn't look right, pause the match and find a judge. Don't let the players keep playing. I blew it, and I regret it.



Best regards,

Paul Rietzl

[Koby]

Are we trying him, Sam Black, and other incidents under the Court of Public Opinion? If so, then I propose we go into session.

Otherwise, by all accounts, this was already been handled by Judges from the event; which means we have nothing more to discuss other than:

Be vigilant. Call a judge.

[thecrav]

Are we trying him, Sam Black, and other incidents under the Court of Public Opinion? If so, then I propose we go into session

Court of public opinion is called to order. The honorable judge reddit is presiding.

[Phoenix Ignition]

People should be wary of everyone they play, not just for the fact that a few bad apples cheat, but also because people make play mistakes during long tournaments.

Some people make more than others. Sam Black isn't known for his play mistakes, certainly, so I don't see how that comparison is relevant. Knowing the names of people who make a lot of "play mistakes" seems prudent if you're going to attend a tournament that has a large prize pool.

We could discuss our opinions on whether or not penalties fit the crimes, but we all know how pointless that is. Making sure everyone is aware of who to be more wary against is all we really can do, unless any of us are high up in the WotC DCI employee chain.

[Humphrey]

What goes around, comes around


https://twitter.com/FrankLepore/status/515939754534514688/photo/1

[Jay_Gatz]

Played Alex in the last round of swiss, game two he wastelands me then tries to play an inkmoth and quickly pass before I notice

[Lemnear]

What goes around, comes around


https://twitter.com/FrankLepore/status/515939754534514688/photo/1

In other words: Alex was distracted by pulling off a Fetchland-tutor so his opponent could slip in an extra land? XD

It's hilarious that the biggest serial cheater in the games history seriously complains about an opponent potential having cheated him out of the tournament.

[Lord Seth]

In other words: Alex was distracted by pulling off a Fetchland-tutor so his opponent could slip in an extra land? XD

It's hilarious that the biggest serial cheater in the games history seriously complains about an opponent potential having cheated him out of the tournament.I thought Mike Long was considered to be the biggest serial cheater in the game's history.

[(nameless one)]

I thought Mike Long was considered to be the biggest serial cheater in the game's history.

I thought he was just really good with the Jedi mind tricks.

[Lemnear]

I thought Mike Long was considered to be the biggest serial cheater in the game's history.

I guess up till today more stories were told about Mike than facts. It's impossible to differ fact from fiction over things that happend more than a decade ago and maybe 1-2 people witnessed in person. This is totally different from Alex, which you can google and instantly have 4+ videos at hand with him cheating ON CAMERA. The most famous story about mike was the Cadaverous-Bloom-in-his-lap while Alex has Two-Explores, draw-5-brainstorm, put-1-card-back-brainstorm and many more.


I thought he was just really good with the Jedi mind tricks.

Well, he made opponents scoop without having a kill-condition left in his deck. That's why we, up this day, ask our opponents to show the Tendrils if he/she goes infinite ;D

[iamajellydonut]

Well, he made opponents scoop without having a kill-condition left in his deck. That's why we, up this day, ask our opponents to show the Tendrils if he/she goes infinite ;D

And why you should always wait for your Elves opponent to reveal the Dryad Arbor when they crack a fetch naming it. :(

[Dark Ritual]

Honestly don't feel the least bit of pity for Alex's opponent cheating against him. I don't like cheating at all but in this case...it made me laugh my ass off; that he complained about it publicly hoping for pity or something? That's the icing on the cake.

[lordofthepit]

The whole situation feels like the 1988 Olympic 100 meter field. Happy Ben Johnson got screwed over, but Carl Lewis was probably every bit as dirty and does not deserve to be celebrated.

[Amon Amarth]

Schadenfreude, schadenfreude everywhere.

[Megadeus]

The irony is real

[Meekrab]

I guess I don't understand why the OP is suggesting that the offender gets an auto-game loss for any infraction. That doesn't even make any sense. If the referee of a football game penalized the Atlanta Falcons for having 12 men on the field, then says "due to the defense's infraction, the Carolina Panthers WIN THE GAME", what would you think?
If it was the 5th time this afternoon that the Falcons ****ed up in the same way, I'd be happy the charade was over.

[lordofthepit]

Not Legacy-related, but one player "won" both the Standard Open and the Modern Premier IQ at SCG Worcester this weekend. Blatantly cheating: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2jsuue/suspect_shuffling_at_worchester_scg_standard/

[Julian23]

SCG is already at it and investigating the situation. They are holding back prizes until the situation has been resolved.

[Dice_Box]

As an armchair critic, it don't look good for Humphries.

[LOLWut]

Are Mike Long, Bertoncini, and this guy all from NY State?

As an aside of ancillary relation to this, I continue to be amazed at how lenient the entire MtG community is with cheating.

[Bertrand Hustle]

So obvious
http://giant.gfycat.com/ParallelShortGemsbuck.gif

[TheAardvark]

SCG is already at it and investigating the situation. They are holding back prizes until the situation has been resolved.

And, if their investigation finds sufficient evidence of cheating, they will donate the money from his prizes to charity (as they did with Bertoncini). Say what you will about SCG, but that is a terrific thing to do.

[cdr]

So obvious

When you're looking for it and you can watch it over and over, yeah. Steaming video is one of the better things that's ever happened to MTG.

[Darkenslight]

And, if their investigation finds sufficient evidence of cheating, they will donate the money from his prizes to charity (as they did with Bertoncini). Say what you will about SCG, but that is a terrific thing to do.

For example, Bertoncheaty's DQ'd prize money went to Child's Play, and someone over at Reddit has requested that this prize money goes to a charity in Orlando called Game Changer. And yes, sometimes, SCG are pretty awesome.

[big_ticket]

cheater's never prosper.. smh

[Finn]

He is frighteningly good. He actually uses his other hand as a distraction in that gif Bertrand Hustle posted. I would be such an easy mark for this guy, as I never notice that kind of thing.

*shiver*

[Julian23]

Honestly, I'm a very peaceful person. But whenever someone shuffles my deck and does not put his hands in one direction and turn the header in the other, I really want to scratch their face off.

If you can't shuffle my deck without looking at it, do not shuffle it. If we were to actually enforce this all the time, i would have to call a judge in 60% of my games. People are really bad at blind-shuffling a deck and most of them even thinks that's ok. I've spent like 3 years teaching someone to shuffle a deck properly without looking at it because he just wasn't physically able to. The first time I instructed him to shuffle with his eyes closed, he accidentally threw the deck over the table.

Sorry, but i really feel that right now the community (and that includes me) is to soft on people using the rules more as "guidelines".

[M+1]

Is there an argument to be made for not enforcing additional shuffling by the opponent?

You are supposed to present a randomized deck to the opponent, therefore additional shuffling is redundant. (If opponent does not believe you are presenting a randomized deck, he should call a judge).
And, if you can cheat while shuffling your own deck, you can also cheat while shuffling your opponent's, as evidenced by the case at hand.

[Lemnear]

Is there an argument to be made for not enforcing additional shuffling by the opponent?

You are supposed to present a randomized deck to the opponent, therefore additional shuffling is redundant. (If opponent does not believe you are presenting a randomized deck, he should call a judge).
And, if you can cheat while shuffling your own deck, you can also cheat while shuffling your opponent's, as evidenced by the case at hand.

We need shuffle-machines like in poker (maybe not as rough as poker cards are shuffled in there) for tournaments like this. Till then I skip all playtesting and work on my shuffle skills/watch tutorials to be less distracted by shuffling and have a better shot at spotting cheating

[Sloshthedark]

have to admit some skills to this guy, the invitational vid is very telling, so calm, makes my wonder how many players pull magical tricks like this off camera


If we were to actually enforce this all the time, i would have to call a judge in 60% of my games.

Sorry, but i really feel that right now the community (and that includes me) is to soft on people using the rules more as "guidelines".

Then why don't you? From your posts I get you're very oriented on rules enforcement, I'm usualy more laid back but no way anyone gets to shuffle this way, I have better experience on bigger tournaments, Opps are usualy very careful and vigilant when something is at stake... but agreed people are bad at shuffling 90% of all sleeves bent corners are due to my opps that can't just shuffle right


We need shuffle-machines like in poker (maybe not as rough as poker cards are shuffled in there) for tournaments like this. Till then I skip all playtesting and work on my shuffle skills/watch tutorials to be less distracted by shuffling and have a better shot at spotting cheating

It's weird there isn't even something like "moneycounter machine" for (Deck)listing/(deck)checking decks and inventory

[Lemnear]

It's weird there isn't even something like "moneycounter machine" for (Deck)listing/(deck)checking decks and inventory

I totally agree. It's about time the game steps up to poker. Btw Martin, habe you seen some of the new opened MTG stores over in Japan? This is really professional craze

[Sloshthedark]

I totally agree. It's about time the game steps up to poker. Btw Martin, habe you seen some of the new opened MTG stores over in Japan? This is really professional craze

It definitely should... Maybe there is something, I can't imagine stock taking milions of cards in hand... Haven't been to Japan yet, in which way?

[Lemnear]

It definitely should... Maybe there is something, I can't imagine stock taking milions of cards in hand... Haven't been to Japan yet, in which way?

Kai sent me the link months ago. I'll asked him to kindly dig up the link to the pictures. Even blew my architect-mind

[dunk]

If you can't shuffle my deck without looking at it, do not shuffle it. If we were to actually enforce this all the time, i would have to call a judge in 60% of my games.

That's easily said, but there is usually not much a judge can do against it but to stay at the table and keep an eye on both players. I was in exactly that situation previously, playing for 1k in my last round of the PT. Obviously my opponent looked blatantly at my deck while shuffling and I called a judge. The judge was asking us for what happened and also asked the players sitting next to us. Of course, no one noticed anything. All that happened from there on was the judge watching our match, but there wasn't any penalty for my opponent, since he obviously denied of having looked at my deck and there were no witnesses. And, you know, I can't really claim that he did cheat without any kind of proof, as I would also risk to get a loss for unsporting conduct... sometimes this game is amazing. Maybe they should film all matches, at least at high stake tournaments.

[Julian23]

That's easily said, but there is usually not much a judge can do against it but to stay at the table and keep an eye on both players. I was in exactly that situation previously, playing for 1k in my last round of the PT. Obviously my opponent looked blatantly at my deck while shuffling and I called a judge. The judge was asking us for what happened and also asked the players sitting next to us. Of course, no one noticed anything. All that happened from there on was the judge watching our match, but there wasn't any penalty for my opponent, since he obviously denied of having looked at my deck and there were no witnesses. And, you know, I can't really claim that he did cheat without any kind of proof, as I would also risk to get a loss for unsporting conduct... sometimes this game is amazing. Maybe they should film all matches, at least at high stake tournaments.

This year, literally everyone of my friends playing in the PT told me that it's almost kind of an "unwritten law" that people will look at your deck while shuffling. That's so crazy. It's like "Yeah, it's shitty but there's nothing you can really do about it."

[Richard Cheese]

Time for everyone to start strapping dashcams onto their heads.

[JDK]

Dunno about you, but I watch my opponents shuffling (my deck) exactly for that reason. If I catch them glancing or being suspicious I tell them to not peek. If they do it again, I tell a judge. Simple as that.

also: OP's nick is relevant to the latest discussion :D

[Megadeus]

At a large tournament, I generally watch my opponent as I am shuffling. I don't see how people can't shuffle without liking at their deck. It's not that hard

[phonics]

cheater's never prosper.. smh

Cheaters always prosper, it is only the ones that get caught that don't.

[nedleeds]

I stare into their blackened souls. I gave a glacial miracle player the death stare as he shuffled my Enchantress at last SCG while I gently shuffled his pile face down in front of me. There really is no reason to turn the deck on it's side. He said, 'What?'. I said, 'You're looking at my cards'. He said, 'I'm not, I'm just clumsy'. Turned out it didn't matter because he didn't even know what Wild growth did but ...

[cab0747]

I dont think this has been posted yet: Apparently Humphries was called out in the invitational for doing the same thing. I have linked the YouTube video below. His opponent catches it and has the Judge shuffle his deck in G2 and G3.

Video Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ak-TtwSs74&feature=youtu.be)

[Lord Seth]

Honestly, I'm a very peaceful person. But whenever someone shuffles my deck and does not put his hands in one direction and turn the header in the other, I really want to scratch their face off.

If you can't shuffle my deck without looking at it, do not shuffle it. If we were to actually enforce this all the time, i would have to call a judge in 60% of my games. People are really bad at blind-shuffling a deck and most of them even thinks that's ok. I've spent like 3 years teaching someone to shuffle a deck properly without looking at it because he just wasn't physically able to. The first time I instructed him to shuffle with his eyes closed, he accidentally threw the deck over the table.

Sorry, but i really feel that right now the community (and that includes me) is to soft on people using the rules more as "guidelines".Why not just ask them to shuffle the deck face down if they have trouble shuffling while looking away? If it's face down, they can be looking straight at it and there's no opportunity for them to see the cards.

[thecrav]

Why not just ask them to shuffle the deck face down if they have trouble shuffling while looking away? If it's face down, they can be looking straight at it and there's no opportunity for them to see the cards.

In the situation he's provided, the guy has already looked at the deck. The problem is not just the guy being able to manipulate the deck but also the guy seeing what you're playing. For Julian (elves), seeing any one of ~50 of his cards will tell you a ton about the deck.

[guillemnicolau]

In the situation he's provided, the guy has already looked at the deck. The problem is not just the guy being able to manipulate the deck but also the guy seeing what you're playing. For Julian (elves), seeing any one of ~50 of his cards will tell you a ton about the deck.

Keeping your hand or taking a mulligan is one of the hardest decissions in a magic game, and knowing what your opponent plays makes that decission much more easy. As an example, sometimes I've kept a hand expecting my opponent to play the same deck he played in the last tournament, and in the times that he's playing a different deck, I'm usually f***ed..

[H]

I was actually watching both the matches we have video for. I didn't actually see this in real-time, but honestly I wasn't paying nearly as much attention as I would have been had it been Legacy and not standard. I do recall thinking it was odd that no one told him to stop when he was riffling his own deck with the cards facing himself.

I think Julian is right though, there really should be more stringent rules about that you can't do and more enforcement of them. Guys like this are no doubt thriving on the lack of clarity from opponents and lack of enforcement (either by Judges or players not calling Judges). Frankly, what is really the point of your opponent shuffling your deck? If you have presented it non-randomized, shouldn't YOU be penalized? Double shuffling is a waste of time, just have the opponent cut.

[Julian23]

Yeah, realistically, lets get back on the actual topic at hand.

I was actually watching both the matches we have video for. I didn't actually see this in real-time, but honestly I wasn't paying nearly as much attention as I would have been had it been Legacy and not standard. I do recall thinking it was odd that no one told him to stop when he was riffling his own deck with the cards facing himself.

I think Julian is right though, there really should be more stringent rules about that you can't do and more enforcement of them. Guys like this are no doubt thriving on the lack of clarity from opponents and lack of enforcement (either by Judges or players not calling Judges). Frankly, what is really the point of your opponent shuffling your deck? If you have presented it non-randomized, shouldn't YOU be penalized? Double shuffling is a waste of time, just have the opponent cut.

I think that in the end, double shuffling itself prevents more cheating than it causes. To me, the biggest problem came about when WotC got rid of the final cut you had for your own deck. The fact that you are no longer allowed to cut your own deck once your opponent shuffled it is exactly the kind of thing that enables stuff like Fetchland-locks etc.

Bring back the final cut on your own deck.

[Dice_Box]

I think that in the end, double shuffling itself prevents more cheating than it causes. To me, the biggest problem came about when WotC god rid of the final cut you had for your own deck. The fact that you are no longer allowed to cut your own deck once your opponent shuffled it is exactly the kind of thing that enables stuff like Fetchland-locks etc.

Bring back the final cut on your own deck.

Seams quite reasonable. As a bonus, I feel having the community rally around a change like this would be nice, as I feel it would be far more binding than any other thread that pops up here. I would like to see us united over something for once.

[Sloshthedark]

I think that in the end, double shuffling itself prevents more cheating than it causes. To me, the biggest problem came about when WotC got rid of the final cut you had for your own deck. The fact that you are no longer allowed to cut your own deck once your opponent shuffled it is exactly the kind of thing that enables stuff like Fetchland-locks etc.

Bring back the final cut on your own deck.

Opp last principle is right, motivation to manipulate your deck is higher than opps, just imagine all the foil/alter "cheater" hunting this would unleash

[H]

There's always a chance for prestidigitation by either party. Upon further thought, I think the most effective probably be the same rule we have now, but a real enforcement of a rule that you cannot shuffle in any way that might allow you to even possibly see a card. In the Invitational video you can see him shuffling his own deck with the cards facing him. That should be a penalty right there, it just lends itself to bad things.

[JDK]

Oh btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2jx8gu/alex_bertoncini_may_have_also_cheated_at_scg/

:D

[Barook]

I really don't why there are still people who defend Bertoncheati with sentences like "Give him a second chance! He served his time!" when he gives countless examples of he's still an absolute scumbag who will continue to cheat until he gets a lifetime ban (which is long overdue btw).

He is that pathetic.

[Lemnear]

Oh btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2jx8gu/alex_bertoncini_may_have_also_cheated_at_scg/

:D


http://blip.tv/scglive/scgatl-leg-rd-6-alex-bertoncini-vs-alex-smith-5554549

I love the first Brainstorm he plays: "draw 3 cards. Then draw 3 more."

[Julian23]

The second 3 he draws is from when they are resolving Jin Gitaxis' triggered ability. But yeah, that first "Brainstorm" was pretty blatant.

[Charon]

At competitive REL, even players can stop matches for cheating.

At this point, why wouldn't we as a community, just have a team that is knocked out watch all his matches and call judges?

Self police to a degree known cheaters.

[Megadeus]

At competitive REL, even players can stop matches for cheating.

At this point, why wouldn't we as a community, just have a team that is knocked out watch all his matches and call judges?

Self police to a degree known cheaters.

Because it's not our job? If you sit down across from this dude, you should know to watch his ass like a hawk

[Charon]

Because it's not our job? If you sit down across from this dude, you should know to watch his ass like a hawk

I agree. It's not our job.

However, creating a community that actively helps police itself may dissuade cheaters. Many don't know all the tricks, many don't have the ability to focus on their play while looking for every opportunity of impropriety.

Was just a thought.

[iamajellydonut]

Trying to resolve an Ancestral Recall is pretty scummy, but what still gets me most about that video is the "draw four" Brainstorm after he'd already resolved the Jin-Gitaxias. Continuing to cheat after you've already won the game is just a whole different level of "scum".

[Lord Seth]

Oh btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2jx8gu/alex_bertoncini_may_have_also_cheated_at_scg/

:DDid he at least get a warning? The post never says.

The key thing about warnings is that they do go into your record. So if you're constantly cheating and getting caught, you're building up warnings, which hopefully would make the DCI more incentivized to take action.

Then again, how much action does the DCI necessarily take? How many players have actually gotten a lifetime ban for cheating? I've seen some people get lifetime bans for other things (e.g. threatening bodily harm, outright theft), but not for actual cheating.

[Jon]

I really need to work on my Death Stare and get better at counting cards.

[Finn]

We need a Hall of Shame with footage of these losers. Perhaps we could then discuss who is the sauciest douche bag with the evidence clearly available in the OP

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Because it's not our job? If you sit down across from this dude, you should know to watch his ass like a hawk

I wouldn't have a smallest trouble spending my whole day by harassing someone like Broccolini, but only if it would mean something. As long as DCI is hesitant with longtime/lifetime bans, it has very little meaning, though. So what, you'll spend several hours by detective work with what result?
Legacy is in such a state that maybe this security job will be far more interesting than the actual gameplay. But then again why bother leaving home...
I don't get why SCG allows him in his tournaments. His blatant cheating is pretty bad advertisment.
Whatever...

[Megadeus]

I wouldn't have a smallest trouble spending my whole day by harassing someone like Broccolini, but only if it would mean something. As long as DCI is hesitant with longtime/lifetime bans, it has very little meaning, though. So what, you'll spend several hours by detective work with what result?
Legacy is in such a state that maybe this security job will be far more interesting than the actual gameplay. But then again why bother leaving home...
I don't get why SCG allows him in his tournaments. His blatant cheating is pretty bad advertisment.
Whatever...

Don't know about you guys, but I go to tournaments to hang out with friends and play magic. If judges and his opponents would handle situations the way they should behandled, we wouldn't have to deal with his stupid ass at all

[jandax]

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgatl-leg-rd-6-alex-bertoncini-vs-alex-smith-5554549

I love the first Brainstorm he plays: "draw 3 cards. Then draw 3 more."

"We're pausing there to figure out what happened. I think Alex got confused and didn't put two cards back..."

http://www.sodemieter.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ROFLOL.jpg

[Hopo]

Apparently he got banned for 4 years. Better than nothing.

[snorlaxcom]

Just some scum trying to justify his action throughout the years of screwing his opponents over. Good riddance.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10696323_10152816256441151_3271507652759889474_n.jpg?oh=e1783819210d4a02c4d15ece97215cde&oe=54AEE0BF&__gda__=1420678155_e2f604d85c4c679642832fc5b10a8838

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Apparently he got banned for 4 years. Better than nothing.

Trevor or Alex?

[mort-]

Trevor. Alex sloppy plays free.

[H]

Picture seems legit, I know the person who comments second. The irony level of Trevor calling out people for being a scumbag is just, I don't know, over 9000 or something.

[Megadeus]

Lol

http://i.imgur.com/fXKaE.png

[Barook]

That's hilarious. Especially since he's acting like he's thrown into prison and being forced to pick up the soap.

4 years seems fine. I rather question why Alex doesn't have a lifetime-ban for the number of stunts he pulls regularly.

[Lemnear]

Just some scum trying to justify his action throughout the years of screwing his opponents over. Good riddance.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10696323_10152816256441151_3271507652759889474_n.jpg?oh=e1783819210d4a02c4d15ece97215cde&oe=54AEE0BF&__gda__=1420678155_e2f604d85c4c679642832fc5b10a8838

Nice take on the topic. Ignoring that he STOLE thousands of dollars because "he's only human" and it's "just a card game".

Looks like he's even better at lying to himself than to his opponents ;D

4 years ban is rather uncommon, no? I also wonder where the relation of Trevors 4 years and Alex' 1,5 years is and that Alex is still allowed to cheat himself in SCG Top 8s

[clavio]

Looks like Bertoncini just landed a 3 year ban

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/suspended-dci-memberships-2014-10-24

[JPA]

Bertoncini gets another ban, three years this time. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/suspended-dci-memberships-2014-10-24)

Edit: Clavio was a few seconds faster :cry:

[clavio]

suck it

[Dice_Box]

I missed this one, what did Alex do this time?

[PirateKing]

I missed this one, what did Alex do this time?

Resolved a Brainstorm in the middle of a crowded stack, never put 2 back.

Sound familiar?

[Dice_Box]

Resolved a Brainstorm in the middle of a crowded stack, never put 2 back.

Sound familiar?

Yea, it does.

[danyul]

Beautiful.

[useL]

Resolved a Brainstorm in the middle of a crowded stack, never put 2 back.

Sound familiar?

Any video evidence this time?

[Dice_Box]

Not this time I do not think. All I can find is this: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2jx8gu/alex_bertoncini_may_have_also_cheated_at_scg/

Sometime tells me we will not have to wait long for an official announcement though given all that happened this past week and who it happened too.

[Richard Cheese]

Don't know about you guys, but I go to tournaments to hang out with friends and play magic. If judges and his opponents would handle situations the way they should behandled, we wouldn't have to deal with his stupid ass at all

I go to look for weird foreign shit at dealer tables after losing the first 3 rounds. Lines are crazy short that early.

[Parcher]

I missed this one, what did Alex do this time?

There was also the old Supreme Verdict while I'm at two and you have a Mutavault. Last Breath it during your attack step..oops! I only had two White mana. But like the Brainstorm incident, the judges rule its gone too far to reverse. Or the don't miss a single Dark Confidant trigger in three games until I'm at three life(5, but opp had active Deathrite). Which held up the entire tournament for 20 miunute at the end of a round, and again, the judges couldn't find a way to give more than a warning.

[menace13]

Shame Alex got suspended. He's legendary never stops cheating.

[Megadeus]

I go to look for weird foreign shit at dealer tables after losing the first 3 rounds. Lines are crazy short that early.

I won't bash a man for trying to find a great deal

[cdr]

They must've had something serious on Alex to hand out another ban. There was probably an ongoing investigation. Magic can be prone to witch-huntery (ask Willy Edel), so the investigations committee does not hand out lengthy cheating suspensions without rock solid evidence.

[H]

It seems likely Alex was under investigation since the PT, see here (http://inresponse.shatterpause.com/2014/10/16/alex-bertoncini-just-playing-game/) (besides the Kibler bashing that adds nothing to the conversation).

The warnings he got at the SCG were no doubt just a little icing on the cake.

[Parcher]

It seems likely Alex was under investigation since the PT, see here (http://inresponse.shatterpause.com/2014/10/16/alex-bertoncini-just-playing-game/) (besides the Kibler bashing that adds nothing to the conversation).

The warnings he got at the SCG were no doubt just a little icing on the cake.

That's not even the ones that pissed people off at the PT. He also tried to accuse Cheon of cheating by missing triggers, and lobbied for a game loss.

[H]

That's not even the ones that pissed people off at the PT. He also tried to accuse Cheon of cheating by missing triggers, and lobbied for a game loss.

I am definitely not surprised at all by there being more. In fact, I was sure there would be.

[Malakai]

If someone cheats, they should be banned for life. Even if they never cheat again, they're still damaging to the game just be being around. And it's not as if the game has so few players that each one needs to be hung on to.

[H]

The hits just keep on coming:

Rookie of the year Jared Boettcher running the cheats (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2k79tn/rookie_of_the_year_jared_boettcher_running_the/)

[Barook]

They must've had something serious on Alex to hand out another ban. There was probably an ongoing investigation. Magic can be prone to witch-huntery (ask Willy Edel), so the investigations committee does not hand out lengthy cheating suspensions without rock solid evidence.
Third time isn't the charm regarding cheating. Since he continues to be a serial cheater, he should be banned for life.

He's toxic for the game and will cheat again once he comes back. It didn't work the last time since he didn't show the slightest bit of remorse, and it won't work this time.

[cdr]

If someone cheats, they should be banned for life. Even if they never cheat again, they're still damaging to the game just be being around. And it's not as if the game has so few players that each one needs to be hung on to.

There have been people that have cheated, repented, and come back and been positive for the game. Multiple members of the HoF have cheated.

It's good to differentiate between opportunistic cheaters - someone who took advantage of a situation presented, perhaps in a moment of weakness - and habitual cheaters, someone who actively creates opportunities to cheat. I fully expect Bertoncini may get the first lifetime ban for cheating (so far, only assault has merited lifetime) if he comes back after this suspension. I don't think the game has seen such a gem of a habitual cheater since Mike Long.

[Lord Seth]

Just some scum trying to justify his action throughout the years of screwing his opponents over. Good riddance.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10696323_10152816256441151_3271507652759889474_n.jpg?oh=e1783819210d4a02c4d15ece97215cde&oe=54AEE0BF&__gda__=1420678155_e2f604d85c4c679642832fc5b10a8838Uh, no Trevor, no one has accused you of being as bad as a rapist or murderer. If your crimes were as serious as being a rapist or murderer, you'd be receiving a punishment substantially more harsh than a 4-year suspension from a card game.

By the way, I find it confusing that Alex, who has been suspended before, gets 3 years, whereas Trevor (who hasn't been suspended before) gets 4 years. I think both of them deserve strong punishments, but it seems a bit odd that the guy with the "criminal record" gets the more lenient punishment.


There have been people that have cheated, repented, and come back and been positive for the game. Multiple members of the HoF have cheated.Like who? If you're going to say people have cheated and repented and been positive, who are these people?

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm genuinely curious.

[menace13]

There have been people that have cheated, repented, and come back and been positive for the game. Multiple members of the HoF have cheated.

It's good to differentiate between opportunistic cheaters - someone who took advantage of a situation presented, perhaps in a moment of weakness - and habitual cheaters, someone who actively creates opportunities to cheat. I fully expect Bertoncini may get the first lifetime ban for cheating (so far, only assault has merited lifetime) if he comes back after this suspension. I don't think the game has seen such a gem of a habitual cheater since Mike Long.
He is the new Mike Long.

As for lifetime bans. They already have those, unless they think people will live to 2145 or the year 9999. I very much doubt this game will last until 2045.

[Parcher]

Now that I think about it; people have been complaining about Alex cheating since he came off suspension. At multiple SCG events, against multiple different opponents. It is pretty disheartening that nothing was done until he acted the same way at a Pro Tour. Then the Banhammer can't come down fast or hard enough.

[cdr]

Now that I think about it; people have been complaining about Alex cheating since he came off suspension. At multiple SCG events, against multiple different opponents. It is pretty disheartening that nothing was done until he acted the same way at a Pro Tour. Then the Banhammer can't come down fast or hard enough.

Nothing can be done until he gets caught. I guess you can perhaps blame SCG for not putting competent enough people on watching him. It unfortunately takes an experienced and especially competent judge to catch a cheater in the act. They were allegedly also avoiding putting him on camera, which if true meant no camera evidence. It's not surprising if the PT is where he got caught, considering the judge level : player ratio.


As for lifetime bans. They already have those, unless they think people will live to 2145 or the year 9999. I very much doubt this game will last until 2045.

Like I said, so far lifetime bans have been reserved exclusively for assault or threats thereof.

[menace13]

Like I said, so far lifetime bans have been reserved exclusively for assault or threats thereof.
Are the lifetime bans you're referring to dated 2150 or 9999?

[cdr]

Are the lifetime bans you're referring to dated 2150 or 9999?

Both, I would assume - probably inconsistency over the years. I haven't looked at individual people though and they haven't listed ban reason for like 6 years.

Edit: Oh, and felony theft. The GP theft ring is on there under 9999.

[MGB]

I personally think that cheating in important events, especially in the early rounds when judges are much more outnumbered, is rampant. The amazing thing here is that we are discussing things that can be seen, like drawing three off of brainstorm or forgetting triggers. Personally, I think that there is a lot of false shuffles, marking, not drawing the top card, drawing multiple cards in one step, and hiding cards that happens. Those things are really difficult to detect.

The judges at MTG events, although knowledgeable about the game, are not experts at catching cheats. Intent makes the issue even more complex on the stuff you guys are seeing on the videos. Does everyone here know that people get away with cheating at cards in Vegas all the time. Sometimes they get caught, but usually after a long time. There is no feasible way to prevent cheating in our game with physical cards with the resources that are available. It is one of the secrets that TOs and judges would like to ignore.

There are some things we could suggest doing to reduce the chance of cheating, but they would remove a lot of the feel of the game.

We could have a clock with a 2 second delay and N minutes per player per round, it is used often enough in chess. This would remove some of the stalling risk. Rules would need to be designed around priority, shuffles, and sideboarding. This seems like it would solve a problem but I promise that it would create many many more.

We could make change the way that cards are drawn and how decks are shuffled. Essentially we could make your opponent shuffle and deal cards from your deck. This would significantly reduce many kinds of cheating. It would also mean that you have to trust your opponent with your property for more than just shuffle cuts. This would make the game much more serious.

In the end Magic is a casual thing. In the highest level of play there is no fairness in thinking time, unlike chess, checkers, go, scrabble. In addition, you deal cards to yourself and everyone is okay with that for some reason.

Magic, even at the highest level, is a fun casual game.


This post is spot on. There is this tension in Magic between the Casual and the Competitive. And as it is fundamentally designed, Magic falls more in the former category than the latter. It is too complex a game and asks too much of each player for the game to maintain competitive integrity. There are simply too many things that can go wrong. Chess is a great competitive game because the play clock is easy to implement and the pieces are very clearly observable during the course of the game. It's hard to get away with prestidigitation in a game of Chess. In Magic, however, there are ample opportunities for Sleight of Hand. Everything in the game leads to this element of potential cheating. The game requires players to shuffle *constantly*. The game requires players to draw varying numbers of cards at multiple points in the game. The game requires players to keep track of tokens and triggers and static effects so much so that it is overwhelming.

There is no real way to make Magic a truly "competitive" game with a high degree of integrity in the game actions. Even at the highest level Magic is basically being played on an honor system.

[cdr]

There is no real way to make Magic a truly "competitive" game with a high degree of integrity in the game actions. Even at the highest level Magic is basically being played on an honor system.

Well, there is actually - put it on a computer. Assuming you agree that it's the same game. But PTs on PCs don't sell physical playing cards.

[thecrav]

Well, there is actually - put it on a computer. Assuming you agree that it's the same game. But PTs on PCs don't sell physical playing cards.

As useful as I find MTGO, there are a lot of differences that make it not exactly the same game :/

[Phoenix Ignition]

Well, there is actually - put it on a computer. Assuming you agree that it's the same game. But PTs on PCs don't sell physical playing cards.

And the fact that MTGO is still so terrible a client despite this fact really astounds me. I'm glad the Hearthstone revolution has made Hasbro finally understand the potential they have, but really MTGO is the solution to making magic both a good viewing experience (watching the fuzzy cameras at SCG playing "guess the glare card" is an absolutely terrible experience, that even seasoned veterans have a hard time following) and a fair game (perfect randomization, no rules missed if coded correctly, cards drawn correctly, and most of all A TIMER FOR EACH PLAYER NOT FOR BOTH).

I can't stress enough how amazing each player getting their own timer is, and it just isn't possible in paper games. The priority changes ~20 times per turn and having to hit a button for that would be stupid and drain the fun. Just that change alone is one of the best things that can possibly happen to the game for players, but the other thing about making tournament magic popular is letting the spectators see what cards each player has and all of the other details.

If MTGO actually gets its shit together finally we could have amazing games for any tournament.

[menace13]

Both, I would assume - probably inconsistency over the years. I haven't looked at individual people though and they haven't listed ban reason for like 6 years.

Edit: Oh, and felony theft. The GP theft ring is on there under 9999.
Heh, that makes sense now. I was confused thinking that life was different than 130 years. :P

[MGB]

Well, there is actually - put it on a computer. Assuming you agree that it's the same game. But PTs on PCs don't sell physical playing cards.

Yep, a bug-free (is that possible) version of MTGO that enforces rules would be the solution.

But referencing the game in these posts I am referring to the paper game being played in tournaments right now. I guess the way to make this statement is to say that "There is no real way to make paper Magic a truly competitive game with a high degree of integrity in the game actions."

[Megadeus]

The only thing I wish that real life could emulate from MTGO is the timer. Like has been said, it isn't truly possible, but nothing is more infuriating to me than a player who is slow and we go to time because of it. I play decks that generally like longer attrition based games, but I only go to time when I have a very slow opponent.

[Lemnear]

The hits just keep on coming:

Rookie of the year Jared Boettcher running the cheats (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2k79tn/rookie_of_the_year_jared_boettcher_running_the/)

In ALL the vids he shuffled till there is a land on the bottom and then puts the land on top of his opponents deck. Nice catch.

Supports my stance that 100% of professional players are cheaters (on opportunity). Being a constant Top 8/16 Performer in a varying field with varying opponents and victim of your own decks variance, is impossible.

[Dice_Box]

Got to agree with Lemnear on this one. Any good player who does well over a long period of time is a dirty cheater.

I wish to start a petition to get Oarsman and Bryant Cook banned from this forum for being such a horrible part of our community.

[bruizar]

In ALL the vids he shuffled till there is a land on the bottom and then puts the land on top of his opponents deck. Nice catch.

Supports my stance that 100% of professional players are cheaters (on opportunity). Being a constant Top 8/16 Performer in a varying field with varying opponents and victim of your own decks variance, is impossible.

So then how do you explain consistent tournament results of professional poker players? Do they not suffer from random variance?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Cook is pro?

[Lemnear]

Got to agree with Lemnear on this one. Any good player who does well over a long period of time is a dirty cheater.

I wish to start a petition to get Oarsman and Bryant Cook banned from this forum for being such a horrible part of our community.

We're not talking about "doing well" and being among the top 20% of most tournaments you enter in your favorite format. It's about being always in the T16 in any event those players enter no matter the format. That stuff leaves a fishy taste on my tongue


So then how do you explain consistent tournament results of professional poker players? Do they not suffer from random variance?

Professional Poker players do not end up in the money in like any tournament they enter. Just google up some known players of the 2000's and draw a relation between entered tournaments and money-finishes. You have to take into account that poker payouts are not only fueled by pay-ins but also by sponsoring, advertising, TVs broadcast earnings etc. and are very top-heavy compared to the number of players entering. You can make a living out of placing in the money once or twice a year despite entering 30+ events per year. MTG doesn't work that way

[bruizar]

We're not talking about "doing well" and being among the top 20% of most tournaments you enter in your favorite format. It's about being always in the T16 in any event those players enter no matter the format. That stuff leaves a fishy taste on my tongue

So call a judge each time they shuffle, and ask the judge to shuffle instead.

[Lemnear]

So call a judge each time they shuffle, and ask the judge to shuffle instead.

For me a much easier method works fine: shuffle myself & let my opponent cut the deck at least 6 times face down. Works fine for both players and doesn't damage the cards more than neccessary. Throughout BOM 8 I had only 2 people shuffling for 15 seconds after each fetch instead of multi-cutting and both blatantly looked at my cards as they had the card-face directed at themselves. Complained twice, called a judge once, gave up on the topic since then. I guess it's an unwritten law to just look what your opponent is playing before they draw their first hand. A significant issue depending on your deck of choice as you can't catch people off-guard nor can prove the cheat unless a judge is already watching

[Bed Decks Palyer]

For me a much easier method works fine: shuffle myself & let my opponent cut the deck at least 6 times face down. Works fine for both players and doesn't damage the cards more than neccessary. Throughout BOM 8 I had only 2 people shuffling for 15 seconds after each fetch instead of multi-cutting and both blatantly looked at my cards as they had the card-face directed at themselves. Complained twice, called a judge once, gave up on the topic since then. I guess it's an unwritten law to just look what your opponent is playing before they draw their first hand. A significant issue depending on your deck of choice as you can't catch people off-guard nor can prove the cheat unless a judge is already watching

Pretty much one of the reasons why I never cared about the whole "pro" scene and never tried anything in that environment.
Or any other environment...

[JDK]

We're not talking about "doing well" and being among the top 20% of most tournaments you enter in your favorite format. It's about being always in the T16 in any event those players enter no matter the format. That stuff leaves a fishy taste on my tongue

You do realize those guys play dozens of events a year, right?

[menace13]

For me a much easier method works fine: shuffle myself & let my opponent cut the deck at least 6 times face down. Works fine for both players and doesn't damage the cards more than neccessary. Throughout BOM 8 I had only 2 people shuffling for 15 seconds after each fetch instead of multi-cutting and both blatantly looked at my cards as they had the card-face directed at themselves. Complained twice, called a judge once, gave up on the topic since then. I guess it's an unwritten law to just look what your opponent is playing before they draw their first hand. A significant issue depending on your deck of choice as you can't catch people off-guard nor can prove the cheat unless a judge is already watching
Even more reason to change all event play to mirror top 8s with knowledge of each players deck lists

[Lord Seth]

We're not talking about "doing well" and being among the top 20% of most tournaments you enter in your favorite format. It's about being always in the T16 in any event those players enter no matter the format. That stuff leaves a fishy taste on my tongueYou say "no matter what the format" but what difference should the format make? A "pro player" devotes a lot of time to studying all of the formats they play in. The idea of someone doing best in their favorite format is really something that applies more to casual players who happen to have a favorite format. I suppose one can argue some formats are more variance-dependent than others, but that's a different thing.

More to the point, what players, in your words, do always finish in Top 16 no matter what? Certainly, there are some players who can accomplish such a thing multiple times, but those players also tend to be entering tons of events so by the law of averages, if they're decent enough, they will manage to do so. So you really only notice their victories and not their defeats. Maybe you see the same names on various Top 16's, but are you actually figuring out what percentage of events they played in that they did that well in, or what percentage of events they played in and did well enough to be notable that they did well in?

[cdr]

So many filthy casuals on The Source.

[Lemnear]

You do realize those guys play dozens of events a year, right?

Both Groups of players do. The difference is that one money finish in a ETP or smaller is enough to make a living for quite a while and you have nothing like this in MTG. In MtG you HAVE to finish in the money in most events you enter to make a living ergo the pressure on the players is much higher which forces these players to take every advantage possible. On top of that you get the usual Problem of the games structure (personal decks, card shuffle, etc) which has several weaknesses itself then it comes to fair play

[ShiftyKapree]

Got to agree with Lemnear on this one. Any good player who does well over a long period of time is a dirty cheater.

I wish to start a petition to get Oarsman and Bryant Cook banned from this forum for being such a horrible part of our community.

I really hope you are sarcastic about this, I've played against Bryant Cook numerous times when Jupiter games was "actual" shop that hosted kick ass tournaments, he does not cheat and far from it. I've seen him lose games, he is just a really good TES player. If you are good at that deck you can win so many games against fair decks which im quickly learning as i started to play the deck, it is skill intensive but that deck is a gamble

[Dice_Box]

Of course I am being sarcastic.

[Rune]

It's crazy how many camera feature matches Jared cheated in before getting busted. For every buffoon who cheats on camera, I wonder how many 'smart' cheaters there are. I don't really have much faith left in competitive paper Magic. It's just not a game meant to be played with large amounts of money on the line.

[Lemnear]

It's crazy how many camera feature matches Jared cheated in before getting busted. For every buffoon who cheats on camera, I wonder how many 'smart' cheaters there are. I don't really have much faith left in competitive paper Magic. It's just not a game meant to be played with large amounts of money on the line.

I agree. It's impossible to keep the game cheat-free under the current conditions paper magic is handled

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Not even FNM-like Legacy is free of this, ppl do anything possible for a played Badlans... :rolleyes:

[JDK]

Both Groups of players do. The difference is that one money finish in a ETP or smaller is enough to make a living for quite a while and you have nothing like this in MTG. In MtG you HAVE to finish in the money in most events you enter to make a living ergo the pressure on the players is much higher which forces these players to take every advantage possible. On top of that you get the usual Problem of the games structure (personal decks, card shuffle, etc) which has several weaknesses itself then it comes to fair play

So everybody being successful in MTG is a cheater? Please, listen to yourself. Might some of them cheat? Sure, but just because they are significantly better (or finish better for that matter) I am not going to call everyone a cheater.

These "pros" play in a significant larger amount of events than they make top16 finishes. Regardless of what Poker players do. I'm not even sure why you throw them into the equation. Yes, poker leaves less (no?) room to cheat, but you also have to consider these games are different. Deckbuilding, Metagaming and Format-Experience along with play-skill allow for exceptional and dedicated players to actually make several good finishes throughout the year.

[Lemnear]

So everybody being successful in MTG is a cheater?


Where did I say this? I did never hint that winning a tournament equals being a cheater or the like

Please, listen to yourself. Might some of them cheat? Sure, but just because they are significantly better (or finish better for that matter) I am not going to call everyone a cheater.


i neither did. Comprehend what I wrote instead of calling me out on your self-created hyperboles

These "pros" play in a significant larger amount of events than they make top16 finishes. Regardless of what Poker players do. I'm not even sure why you throw them into the equation.


it wasn't me who came up with poker.

Yes, poker leaves less (no?) room to cheat, but you also have to consider these games are different. Deckbuilding, Metagaming and Format-Experience along with play-skill allow for exceptional and dedicated players to actually make several good finishes throughout the year.


poker also features several formats. The problem is that the whole aspect of shuffling and sleight of hands is impossible to eliminate from MTG and that it is a common used tool to push your performance in a game which isn't ment to support anything like a professional scene in terms of making a living off it.

[JDK]

it wasn't me who came up with poker.

Well, you quoted me and posted "Both Groups of players do. The difference is that one money finish in a ETP or smaller is enough to make a living for quite a while and you have nothing like this in MTG."


Where did I say this? I did never hint that winning a tournament equals being a cheater or the like
"Supports my stance that 100% of professional players are cheaters (on opportunity). Being a constant Top 8/16 Performer in a varying field with varying opponents and victim of your own decks variance, is impossible."

"We're not talking about "doing well" and being among the top 20% of most tournaments you enter in your favorite format. It's about being always in the T16 in any event those players enter no matter the format. That stuff leaves a fishy taste on my tongue"

Who does that? Who are you referring to, if not to the "pros"?

[Lemnear]

You realize that "being successful in MTG" and "winning a tournament" isn't the same as "being a pro and make a living out of your money finishes"? You acknowledge the pressure and temptation to cheat if it makes the difference between being able to pay your rent/keep Sponsors or not, while playing a game with all it's flaws of competitive structure and monetary support.

MTG is a lot like eSports in terms of what it takes to make a living off playing a game. This includes the consumed time of playtesting, analysis, etc. MTG has nothing in common with poker and it's professional players aside the Sponsoring System, so it's completely pointless if bruizar wants to talk about "variance" and "Poker" to draw parallels to MTG ignoring that the variance in MTG is a totally different thing than the possibility calculations in Poker.

[Michael Keller]

You realize that "being successful in MTG" and "winning a tournament" isn't the same as "being a pro and make a living out of your money finishes"? You acknowledge the pressure and temptation to cheat if it makes the difference between being able to pay your rent/keep Sponsors or not, while playing a game with all it's flaws of competitive structure and monetary support.

MTG is a lot like eSports in terms of what it takes to make a living off playing a game. This includes the consumed time of playtesting, analysis, etc. MTG has nothing in common with poker and it's professional players aside the Sponsoring System, so it's completely pointless if bruizar wants to talk about "variance" and "Poker" to draw parallels to MTG ignoring that the variance in MTG is a totally different thing than the possibility calculations in Poker.

No one is making a sustained living playing Magic: the Gathering. At all. There is also no such thing as a "professional" Magic player.

[Bryant Cook]

Got to agree with Lemnear on this one. Any good player who does well over a long period of time is a dirty cheater.

I wish to start a petition to get Oarsman and Bryant Cook banned from this forum for being such a horrible part of our community.

Yeah, I'm just the worst. Let me know when you have it up and running.

[Dice_Box]

Yeah, I'm just the worst. Let me know when you have it up and running.

Might be a while mate, seams that Lem and I are a little bit outnumbered here. :p

[JDK]

You realize that "being successful in MTG" and "winning a tournament" isn't the same as "being a pro and make a living out of your money finishes"?

Again: Who does that? Who makes a living out of the winnings from playing MTG? Who makes top16 in every event they play in?

[cdr]

There's some college-age kids that do little but play MTG, but they're either in college or working "real" jobs (even if "real job" is working for SCG). Older "pro players" are mostly successful professionals - not the MTG sort of professional.

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

[Lemnear]

Again: Who does that? Who makes a living out of the winnings from playing MTG? Who makes top16 in every event they play in?

you don't get that with winning you can aquire Sponsors like MTG Madness/Channel Fireball/etc., get payed writer positions and people/websites buying your articles, etc. all adding up with your won money at the tournaments itself. You can look at SCGs Homepage to see the connection between being a top grinder/Sponsoring/Articles.

If you look up everybody's darling Alex B.'s results, you can find 54(!) Top 16 placings at tournaments like SCG Opens/Invitationals/PT Qualifier/etc. since 2010 and that despite of his 1,5 year ban in Dec. 2011.

Jared Boettcher has 21 Top 16 finishes since 2013 in SCG Opens/Invitationals/GPs/PTs/PTQs

Take these numbers (timespan, finishes, tournaments held by SCG over a year, number of PTQs held over a year in the US, money gained) and think about them. I'm not believing in the fairy tale of "just very talented players" looking at those surreal results.


There's some college-age kids that do little but play MTG, but they're either in college or working "real" jobs (even if "real job" is working for SCG). Older "pro players" are mostly successful professionals - not the MTG sort of professional.

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

What is "a few percentage points" if you force your opponent to mull 1-2 times each game like Trevor did or Fetchland-lock your opponent with every shuffle effect he uses like Boettcher? How many actual and Virtual cardadvantage is needed to win a match just because of that? Hell, I would BUY an article on that topic :)


Yeah, I'm just the worst. Let me know when you have it up and running.

Is this now an ironic response to an ironic post? ;P

[clavio]

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

It's far easier to get good at cheating than it is to get good at Magic. And even then, very few players have gone on the run Boettcher is currently on.

[kombatkiwi]

There's some college-age kids that do little but play MTG, but they're either in college or working "real" jobs (even if "real job" is working for SCG). Older "pro players" are mostly successful professionals - not the MTG sort of professional.

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

It can add way more than a 'few' percentage points...

This argument doesn't really make sense because if you know how to play the game at a high level AND you can cheat then you get the edge from both, it's not like you have to make a choice.

[Lord Seth]

I found this (http://themeadery.org/articles/professional-illusionist-wins-standard-tournament-with-sleight-of-hand-tricks-flair) highly amusing.

[Darkenslight]

Again: Who does that? Who makes a living out of the winnings from playing MTG? Who makes top16 in every event they play in?

You don't have to: You just have to hit Platinum for the Year - that gets you $12,000 for attending the PTs, $1,000 for going to the WMC, $500 for going to any WMCQ, and $250 for just attending a GP. Those are just for turning up and playing, even if you scrub out 0-6 after your byes. And don't forget that, at that level, Wizards also pays for your hotel and airfare.

It's not easy, but I can definitely see the possibility of being a Pro Magic player.

[Dice_Box]

You don't have to: You just have to hit Platinum for the Year - that gets you $12,000 for attending the PTs, $1,000 for going to the WMC, $500 for going to any WMCQ, and $250 for just attending a GP. Those are just for turning up and playing, even if you scrub out 0-6 after your byes. And don't forget that, at that level, Wizards also pays for your hotel and airfare.

It's not easy, but I can definitely see the possibility of being a Pro Magic player.

How could you play so much and not just burn out of the game? At the point it is a job and I feel you would have to work real hard to keep any kind of love for the game.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How could you play so much and not just burn out of the game? At the point it is a job and I feel you would have to work real hard to keep any kind of love for the game.

It's pretty possible that those people actually hate the game. One of the reasons why I never wished to be a pornstar; although I really love loving, I prefer doing it with my wife when we're in mood for it, preferably without other people interfering.
Btw, "occupation: Magic pro" is one of the silliest in world, and as someone already noted on this very boards, it leaves you with people (mostly of M gender) that have experiences and social skills of a teenager.
Moreover something something old age pension.

[Julian23]

How could you play so much and not just burn out of the game? At the point it is a job and I feel you would have to work real hard to keep any kind of love for the game.

It might surprise you but there are people who really enjoy their job.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It might surprise you but there are people who really enjoy their job.
There' no need to be ironic. It might surprise you but there are people who really dislike their job.

[Dice_Box]

It might surprise you but there are people who really enjoy their job.

I understand that, but have you ever sat down to test, done it for two afternoons and then just not wanted to go to the event you tested for anyway? Magic is fun, I enjoy it but if I was going to work around it I think I would like to judge and not play. I mean I like to play, but that burnout would hit so hard.

[H]

I understand that, but have you ever sat down to test, done it for two afternoons and then just not wanted to go to the event you tested for anyway? Magic is fun, I enjoy it but if I was going to work around it I think I would like to judge and not play. I mean I like to play, but that burnout would hit so hard.

That honestly has never happened to me. I've been playing since '96 and after every game I've played, I've always wanted to play another, except when I physically wasn't feeling well (too tired, sick, etc.). I've played a 5 hour multiplayer EDH game and still wanted to play another right after (no one volunteered). There's always that feeling that I could have made better decisions, even if I won.

I think part of it is that I am lucky enough to own most of the cards, so I can build most of the decks. I always want to try a new deck. If I had to play the same deck over and over, I would almost certainly get burned out though. It helps to play different formats too, I am always trying to jam in a few Vintage games between Legacy rounds, or find someone to EDH before Legacy or Vintage. Hell, I'd even Modern if I found an opponent really.

We were musing on our recent drive back from Texas, between brewing random decks, that if one of us won the lottery, we'd become a "professional player" not for the money, or the prizes, but just to play and win. We even joked that we'd rip up all the prizes, we just wanted to win to win. Fly to New York for a win a box? Win and throw it away.

I don't know, man, it's like we just like Magic...

[Julian23]

I understand that, but have you ever sat down to test, done it for two afternoons and then just not wanted to go to the event you tested for anyway?

I can never get enough. Even after multi-day events like BoM Annecy 2013, where I played 40(!) rounds of Legacy over 4 days, the very first thing I wanna do when I come home is fire up MODO and play. If possible even play while on my way home.

I can definitely see that other people might get tired of it and I've certainly grown tired of other things in the past. But for Magic, no I have never felt that.

[iamajellydonut]

We were musing on our recent drive back from Texas, between brewing random decks, that if one of us won the lottery, we'd become a "professional player" not for the money, or the prizes, but just to play and win. We even joked that we'd rip up all the prizes, we just wanted to win to win. Fly to New York for a win a box? Win and throw it away.

And how is this relevant to Magic as a job? What you described is a hobby. If you aren't being forced and expected to win, everything becomes fun. Even the stock market becomes fun at that point I'd imagine. But the fact that you have to play and meet certain expectations can grind you down and kill you.

[MGB]

The mark of a truly great game is that you never get tired of playing it no matter how long or how often you have just played it.

Magic is one of the few rare games I've experienced in my life with this quality.

[H]

And how is this relevant to Magic as a job? What you described is a hobby. If you aren't playing to win, everything becomes fun. Even the stock market becomes fun at that point I'd imagine. But the fact that you have to play and meet certain expectations can grind you down and kill you.

That's true, but my skill level is no where near high enough that I could count any kinds of results but bad. If my skill level was high enough though, I don't feel it would be that bad. Of course there would he pressure, but there are many jobs where you are going to be under pressure to preform. Why would it being Magic make it so bad? I'd rather that then any other high pressure job.

[Julian23]

I posted what you called an "ironic comment" because I think this whole "yeah it makes sense, they're probably just cheaters" view is pretty self-satisfied and in the end rather pointless. It reminds me of my Counter-Strike days where I, once I hit a skill plateau, thought that everyone better than me was probably cheating. Looking back at it now, I was so stupid and part of what was holding me back from actually getting into the highest (paid) tier of players was hugely part due to exactly that kind of attitude.

From my own experience, top players are really good. I mean, I can probably say that I've done really well over the last 1-2 years. Yet, I still make mistakes, sometimes even really stupid ones. The top notch people that I met and played with just don't. They might make strategical mistakes when they're not familiar with the environment, but you will hardly ever see them make tactical mistakes like missing onboard stuff or completly blinding on an interaction. It is their tactical awarness + the endless hours of testing people put in before big tournaments that helps them out. Before PT Born of the Gods for example, Channel Fireball actually flew in to Prague to test with the entire team. There are other teams that do the same and we regularly see members of those teams do well. How many people will go to a PT just having tested on Magic Online? Or maybe even just Cockatrice? It's easily the majority. I'm aware of several and they all came back and were like "woah man, those guys were so much ahead of me"; I'm friends with a lot of them. Of course you might argue that these big-team-names only do well because whenever they meet for "testing" they're actually just holding a "Sleight of Hand Convention" where they talk about their latest card tricks; but at that point you're already pretty deep into tin-foil conspiracy land.

Also, nobody talks about how "pros" (for the lack of a better term) will also sometimes just 3-3 Drop a GP. It happens. Maybe they even make mistakes. But I really feel it's something people just like to ignore.


This is not the Tour de France, guys.

PS: I'm talking about actual testing. It's easily the most misunderstood concepts in all of Magic. 99% of times when people will tell you they are "testing", they are actually just playing.

[Dice_Box]

I guess I am just wired differently. See I can play a game for ages, dig into it and work out all its details, but I feel I am never truly at home until I decompile the code and see what makes it tick. I am in my element digging though the code, finding errors and just having fun.

I think that's why I think I would like Judging more and if I lived in the States I would be higher than Lvl 1. I can play a game, any game and burn out. But you give me the code, what makes it tick and I can never look away. I think honestly think I am an addict to this game (put my Legacy collection into the computer the other day and came out in 5 figures) but I could be happy playing one large event every two years and judging all the others.

Different strokes.

[Tylert]

About Jared Boettcher...
Was it confirmed that he was cheating? did he get a ban like bertoncheatty?

[cdr]

About Jared Boettcher...
Was it confirmed that he was cheating? did he get a ban like bertoncheatty?

Not yet. You can guarantee an investigation is open.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

That is laughable and absolutely illogical.

The only way to save your thesis is saying that "If you can make a T8 cheating, you could've done it the honest way." Nothing about skill, sure if you did not cheat and you shuffled a land to the top of your opponents library on every shuffle by accident then you could have T8 without cheating maybe.

Don't downplay cheating, it has no place in any game between humans. Cheating should be condemned as it destroys the chances of the fair players who no matter how good or skilled can drop out of the tournament quickly by mulliganing 3 times each game due to bad luck. Something that might not happen to a clever cheater.

Anyone remember the Sam Black cheat? Was it top 8 GP or even PT?

[cdr]

So many kitchen table players on the Source, sheesh. If you haven't played at a high level, don't pretend you know anything about the game.

[Lemnear]

So many kitchen table players on the Source, sheesh. If you haven't played at a high level, don't pretend you know anything about the game.

How should I interpret that post? "if you are not cheating to win and care for the integrity of the game, you are just a kitchen table/casual player."?

[H]

Don't downplay cheating, it has no place in any game between humans.

Well, I agree with this part.

I've been teaching the two older of my kids to play, really basic stuff (Portal cards, essentially) and sometimes one tries to cheat. Other times they get angry or upset about what happens in the game. I always tell them, "if you aren't going to play the game correctly, do not play at all." I stand by that, if you aren't going to follow the rules and play the game as it is supposed to be played, it obviously is not something for you. I only once did I have to actually take the cards away to prove my point and I think the lesson sunk in. At least, it seems to for the time being.

I guess my point is, some people never learn that. I know some parents toe the line and say "winning isn't everything" but in practice are actually doing shit like fighting opposing players family members, verbally or physically abusing referees, or berating coaches at their children's sporting events. Examples aren't hard to find. Teaching kids proper sportsmanship is pretty important, because it honestly just leads you to being a better person. Teach you kids the right way, not just with words but through your actions.

/rant

[snorlaxcom]

How should I interpret that post? "if you are not cheating to win and care for the integrity of the game, you are just a kitchen table/casual player."?

+1 This

[Ace/Homebrew]

How should I interpret that post? "if you are not cheating to win and care for the integrity of the game, you are just a kitchen table/casual player."?

cdr isn't condoning cheating. He's putting things into perspective.
The difference between a cheater who goes 7-0-2 and a non-cheater who goes 7-0-2 is that the cheater will go 7-0-2 more frequently with less work (all other things equal). The cheater would still probably go 7-0-2 from time to time without cheating if they put in the work.


All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

This point was met with

That is laughable and absolutely illogical.
Neither of which is true.

cdr's post about the kitchen table was a dismissive response to Quizzle's dismissive response.

[Richard Cheese]

How should I interpret that post? "if you are not cheating to win and care for the integrity of the game, you are just a kitchen table/casual player."?

I see it more as "if you think all these guys are scrubs that ONLY get wins off of cheating, you're wrong."

[wonderPreaux]

I see it more as "if you think all these guys are scrubs that ONLY get wins off of cheating, you're wrong."

This is definitely worth remembering, some of the best cheaters are people who are already actually good at the game. My experience with this is from my younger days playing YuGiOh. YuGiOh has a layered restriction list for power-cards, lots of generic "good stuff" and for the longest time no interaction with the player taking the very first turn (think Vintage with no FoW), there was a lot of potential for very strong or very weak hands, and no resource system to prevent you from setting up a great opener or falling victim to one. As such, there was flagrant cheating, typically involving various methods of stacking your deck or your opponent's, just because once you remove the variance of opening by either keeping the opponents opener more manageable or making your own consistently good, its a lot more feasible to leverage your edge in skill to get the win. People always complain about blue being dominate because you can run Brainstorm/Ponder, but actual literal sleight of hand is a much greater boost to consistency in its own right.

[Exuberance]

I see it more as "if you think all these guys are scrubs that ONLY get wins off of cheating, you're wrong."

Exactly. Bertoncini is actually a pretty good player in his own right, and so is Boettcher. I'm positive that not all of Bertoncini's wins were from running the cheats.

[Darkenslight]

Exactly. Bertoncini is actually a pretty good player in his own right, and so is Boettcher. I'm positive that not all of Bertoncini's wins were from running the cheats.

If you want to look at cheats, you really have to go much further back, to players such as Mike Long - Long was an incredible player of the game...who also tricked his opponents. A lot. Some of this makes for epic stories, such as the Jedi Mind Bloom, but a lot of it reduces the goodwill that players have towards the game.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Some of this makes for epic stories, such as the Jedi Mind Bloom.

Care to share that epic story? Or link to someone who has? :smile:

[Dice_Box]

Care to share that epic story? Or link to someone who has? :smile:

He only had one copy of his kill con in his deck, the oppent had a chance to take it but was tricked to believing that he had more than one copy of the card in question.

[Bryant Cook]

If you want to look at cheats, you really have to go much further back, to players such as Mike Long - Long was an incredible player of the game...who also tricked his opponents. A lot. Some of this makes for epic stories, such as the Jedi Mind Bloom, but a lot of it reduces the goodwill that players have towards the game.

I'd like to point out that saying while searching your deck with Natural Order, "I'm going to go get Craterhoof and win" isn't cheating, even if it's not in your deck (both copies in hand) or saying "Grab Tendrils" even though there isn't once in your main deck. You're not announcing the spell, if your opponent concedes that's on them. From my understanding this is what happened with the Pros Bloom situation and Mike Long.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Actually that Mike Long Story was a bit different, I've heard/read some different versions, but this doesn't matter, it wasn't cheat. However, the card glued to the bottom of his chair...

[H]

In the finals of Pro Tour Paris 1997, Long was playing Mark Justice. In one game, Long, piloting his Prosperous Bloom combo deck, faced a situation where he would lose unless he could win on his current turn. In order to get his combo to go off, he needed to discard his sole copy of Drain Life, the only card in his deck capable of dealing damage and thus killing his opponent. After doing so, he promptly lost that game, as he had no way to win. However, what Long hoped to achieve here was to convince his opponent that he had more than one copy of Drain Life in his deck, and that he was simply unable to draw it. In game five, Mark Justice cast Coercion and saw Long's sole copy of Drain Life. However, due to Long's crafty play in game one, Justice believed that Long had more than one copy of Drain Life, and operating under these false pretenses, Justice had Long discard a different card, allowing Long to win the game. Long ended up winning the game after drawing his entire deck and showing Justice that he only had one Drain Life.[8]


At the 1998 U.S. Nationals, Long was caught with a key card, Cadaverous Bloom, on his chair during a game.[9] The head judge, Charlie Catino, issued a match loss to Long, who went on to finish second in the tournament.


During a crucial round of Pro Tour Los Angeles in 2000, Long was given a warning for improperly shuffling his deck.[10] Long made a comment to his opponent, Darwin Kastle, designed to keep Kastle from shuffling Long's deck before starting the match. Distracted by Long's banter, Kastle only cut Long's deck, despite intending to shuffle because there were rumors before the round that Long's shuffling was suspicious.[10] Many players, including Rob Dougherty, a former Magic judge who attended that event as a player, accused Long of deliberately cheating by not randomizing his deck to keep copies of the card Howling Wolf evenly distributed. Dougherty wrote an article laying out his case against Long. Dougherty contended that Long's pregame actions were not shuffling but instead pretending to shuffle while stacking his deck. The judging staff, Dougherty asserts, was not familiar enough with catching cheaters to understand what Long was doing.[11]


During the US Nationals Draft Challenge held at United States Nationals in 2000, Long was disqualified without prize and given a one-month suspension for presenting a deck that was not sufficiently randomized.[12][13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Long

I don't see him doing anything wrong at all in the first quote. The rest, well, yeah, that's cheating.

[Lemnear]

I'd like to point out that saying while searching your deck with Natural Order, "I'm going to go get Craterhoof and win" isn't cheating, even if it's not in your deck (both copies in hand) or saying "Grab Tendrils" even though there isn't once in your main deck. You're not announcing the spell, if your opponent concedes that's on them. From my understanding this is what happened with the Pros Bloom situation and Mike Long.

This was pretty much the situation as he tricked his opponent into thinking ja had a Drain Life left in his deck and the opponent conceded.

There is a bit of a difference between Jedi mind tricks and blatant cheating like we had examples before. If you drop a Pithing Needle on Goblin Vandal/LED/Lightning Rift and your opponent thinks the cards are disabled it's different from drawing extra cards or manipulating your opponents deck.

[H]

This was pretty much the situation as he tricked his opponent into thinking ja had a Drain Life left in his deck and the opponent conceded.

According to the wiki, which cites this Star City article this (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/21295_Flow_of_Ideas_Magic_MythBusters_Mike_Long_Mythic_Rares_Mulligans_And_More.html) this is really what happened:


Myth #4 – Mike Long exiled his only Drain Life to Cadaverous Bloom then won
When rumblings of this article began to surface I made this claim to a few people and it drew a number of reactions ranging from disbelief to agreement.

Here's the background story for those not in the know. One of Mark Rosewater's favorite stories about the much-ballyhooed Mike Long is from Pro Tour Paris 1997. Long was playing the breakout combo deck of the tournament Prosbloom. It used Cadaverous Bloom and Squandered Resources along with Nature's Balance and Prosperity to generate a ton of mana then cast Drain Life for lethal damage in one big turn. Long's big secret is that while most other players were packing two or three copies of Drain Life he went the minimalist route and only played a single copy. Back then the players didn't swap decklists in the Top 8; the secret was still Mike's to use in his favor.

The story goes that in game two of the finals of the tournament against Mark Justice Mike was comboing out and figuring out his options. Eventually he figured out that he needed to pitch his only Drain Life to have enough mana to start up his combo. The problem of course was that by doing that he voided his only way to victory. Still Long ever the master of mind tricks fearlessly exiled his Drain Life and then revealed two copies of Prosperity and prompted Justice to concede when Long had no way to win.

The story was all well and good and still holds quite nicely as a testament to Long's ability and character. The only problem? With the advent of YouTube the videos of the match were eventually posted online – and the bluff was nowhere to be found!

In game one Long does exile his Drain Life while going off but ends up fizzling and loses.

In game two Long does begin to go off and shows Justice double Prosperity prompting his concession but he clearly never exiles his only Drain Life.

Game three is not available online but we know Justice won that one because the match goes to game five and Long wins games four and five.

Game four and five start with Mike comboing out and the Drain Life can clearly be seen while doing so. To confuse things even further Mike makes a big theatric show in game five of going off in such a manner that he draws his whole deck and shows Justice that he only has one Drain Life.

What is going on here!?

Pundits like Paulo Vitor and Richard Feldman have relentlessly argued that the bluff clearly did not happen and was just a stretch of the truth by Rosewater. Others who want the bluff to be real point to the mysterious display at the end of game five and claim something must be missing from the video somewhere.

I was firmly in the PV and Feldman camp and was planning to put it into the public eye that this never happened. And it's true: the myth as described never happened. Better yet along the way Patrick Chapin heard about my claim and gave me a phone call to fill me in on the truth of the situation and settle things once and for all.

This hasn't been written anywhere else. Are you ready for the true mastery that Long ran?

Long sideboarded out his Drain Life!


Yes you read that right. In game three he sideboarded out his only win condition. Not only did he bluff Justice with his Drain Life but he was planning to do so the entire time!

Unbelievable.

Granted Long ended up losing that game – but the play itself was amazing. Long boarded his Drain back in for game four because his back was against the wall but in game three it wasn't even in his deck.

And that's just the first part.

In game five Justice cast Coercion on Long and saw the Drain Life in his hand. If Justice just took the Drain Life Long would instantly lose. However since Long carefully set up the bluff in game one Justice took another card and Long was able to pull out the win.

Let's walk through the masterful setup here.

In game one while fizzling Long exiled his only Drain Life and made that fact clear to Justice. At this point Justice no doubt believed Long had multiple copies in his deck.

In game two Long took his fine time made plenty of annoying banter to make it seem even longer then revealed double Prosperity to prompt Justice to concede.

In game three Long sideboarded out his Drain Life based on the fact that Justice was so willing to concede in the second game but it ultimately didn't end up mattering.

In game four Long boarded the Drain Life back in.

Then in game five the reason why Long made a show out of revealing he only had one Drain Life was to show Justice how he mind-tricked him in the first game which caused a ripple effect in the subsequent games. By carefully maintaining the illusion that there were two in his deck by not being able to draw it Long knew he could change Justice's play.

So while the actual story isn't true Long still pulled off a pretty crazy bluff. Love him or hate him you have to admit that Long pulled off one of the most daring mind tricks to ever grace the Pro Tour tables.

And that's the truth of the Mike Long situation.

[JDK]

you don't get that with winning you can aquire Sponsors like MTG Madness/Channel Fireball/etc., get payed writer positions and people/websites buying your articles, etc. all adding up with your won money at the tournaments itself. You can look at SCGs Homepage to see the connection between being a top grinder/Sponsoring/Articles.

If you look up everybody's darling Alex B.'s results, you can find 54(!) Top 16 placings at tournaments like SCG Opens/Invitationals/PT Qualifier/etc. since 2010 and that despite of his 1,5 year ban in Dec. 2011.

Jared Boettcher has 21 Top 16 finishes since 2013 in SCG Opens/Invitationals/GPs/PTs/PTQs

Take these numbers (timespan, finishes, tournaments held by SCG over a year, number of PTQs held over a year in the US, money gained) and think about them. I'm not believing in the fairy tale of "just very talented players" looking at those surreal results.
So how much "salary" is this per month? You do realize these articles don't pay the rent unless you are one of the really few people on top of the game. For everyone else it's pocket money.

21 (18, Invitationals don't count as two) Top16 finishes in about two years? 54 (actually, it's 47 top16s - you counted higher finishes and both formats in the invitational) in ~3 years? They probably played over a/a few hundred events in this timespan. Is that what you refer to with "We're not talking about "doing well" and being among the top 20% of most tournaments you enter in your favorite format. It's about being always in the T16 in any event those players enter no matter the format. That stuff leaves a fishy taste on my tongue"?

Is/was Bertoncini "a pro" "making a living" out of his "career"? Does Boettcher live off his winnings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Tour_(Magic:_The_Gathering)#Making_a_living


You don't have to: You just have to hit Platinum for the Year - that gets you $12,000 for attending the PTs, $1,000 for going to the WMC, $500 for going to any WMCQ, and $250 for just attending a GP. Those are just for turning up and playing, even if you scrub out 0-6 after your byes. And don't forget that, at that level, Wizards also pays for your hotel and airfare.

It's not easy, but I can definitely see the possibility of being a Pro Magic player.
That's IF you actually attend each PT (3k per PT). It's also far away from "making a living" out of MTG, unless you live in a country so poor you could be the next movie star in a remake of "City of God". Let alone from just playing the game. You'd still have to be able to play at an extremely high level (aka "staying on the train"). Anyway, you'd have to be one of the top ~30 players to actually reach that level.


Also, nobody talks about how "pros" (for the lack of a better term) will also sometimes just 3-3 Drop a GP. It happens. Maybe they even make mistakes. But I really feel it's something people just like to ignore.
This is what I have been trying to make clear with my posts.

[TheAardvark]

About Jared Boettcher...
Was it confirmed that he was cheating? did he get a ban like bertoncheatty?

The DCI has investigated and cleared Boettcher.

[clavio]

The DCI has investigated and cleared Boettcher.

Source?

[TheAardvark]

Source?

Boettcher himself via Twitter.

https://twitter.com/illethia/status/525672402840453121


EDIT: It's possible that he is lying, but I can't imagine the DCI would take such a lie kindly, so I believe his statement that they cleared him.

[Lemnear]

So how much "salary" is this per month? You do realize these articles don't pay the rent unless you are one of the really few people on top of the game. For everyone else it's pocket money.

21 (18, Invitationals don't count as two) Top16 finishes in about two years? 54 (actually, it's 47 top16s - you counted higher finishes and both formats in the invitational) in ~3 years? They probably played over a/a few hundred events in this timespan.

Is/was Bertoncini "a pro" "making a living" out of his "career"? Does Boettcher live off his winnings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Tour_(Magic:_The_Gathering)#Making_a_living

You think it's possible to play "a few hundred" 100+ players events in those timepans? I doubt there are nearly enough held over the year. Linking to the pro Tour payouts and a section to "Making a living off playing the pro Tour" is pointless, as I stated before that MTGs structure isn't designed to make a living of tournament payouts alone, but of those adding up with Sponsoring, payed writer positions, marketing for a website, etc. and I know what Carsten and Julian get/got for their articles on SCG. If I sum everything up, I can see people survive by only playing MTG.

[JDK]

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you say "only playing mtg" and on the other hand you talk about "sponsorships/writing/whatnot". Make your mind up.

[Lemnear]

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you say "only playing mtg" and on the other hand you talk about "sponsorships/writing/whatnot". Make your mind up.

I said, you have to perform outstanding to make a living. I did NOT say that the price money alone is enough unless you T16 most of the SCG Opens/PT/PTQ/GP you enter. I'm not interrested in nitpicking on phrasing even if I doubt I ever said "only playing mtg"

[Koby]

If I sum everything up, I can see people survive by only playing MTG.

I think it may have been an omission, but I think you meant to say "can't". The amount of effort put into practicing, traveling, and other revenue generating activities (like writing, videos, etc) are on par with a full time job. The payoff, however, usually isn't worth it compared to other traditional jobs/careers.

Magic is a hobby and a lifestyle; but it is not a career.*

* Unless you're Mark Rosewater.

[Lemnear]

I think it may have been an omission, but I think you meant to say "can't". The amount of effort put into practicing, traveling, and other revenue generating activities (like writing, videos, etc) are on par with a full time job. The payoff, however, usually isn't worth it compared to other traditional jobs/careers.

Magic is a hobby and a lifestyle; but it is not a career.*

* Unless you're Mark Rosewater.

Looks like I phrased it indeed that way or missed a "not" to express what I had in mind, but it's clearly not ment in terms of "picking up a deck, go to a tournament, win money, go home, repeat". I should have phrased it in the likes of "make enough money by dedicating your time for MTG".

[JDK]

I think it may have been an omission, but I think you meant to say "can't". The amount of effort put into practicing, traveling, and other revenue generating activities (like writing, videos, etc) are on par with a full time job. The payoff, however, usually isn't worth it compared to other traditional jobs/careers.

Magic is a hobby and a lifestyle; but it is not a career.*

* Unless you're Mark Rosewater.

Exactly.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC7Qd0w1Q6w

Here is the Sam Black cheat.

It happens in game 3. He tracked summoning sickness before. In the end he goes off with Elves but he obviously knows he does not have lethal on board which is why he tries his hardest to keep going but he fizzled and he knew it. Then he tricks himself to winning the game by asking his probably "in aw" puzzled opponent if his summoning sick visionary could attack (which he could not and Sam obviously knew!) and wins.

funny how that was never investigated or anything even the commentators seemed aware

[cdr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC7Qd0w1Q6w

Here is the Sam Black cheat.

It happens in game 3. He tracked summoning sickness before. In the end he goes off with Elves but he obviously knows he does not have lethal on board which is why he tries his hardest to keep going but he fizzled and he knew it. Then he tricks himself to winning the game by asking his probably "in aw" puzzled opponent if his summoning sick visionary could attack (which he could not and Sam obviously knew!) and wins.

funny how that was never investigated or anything even the commentators seemed aware

He was investigated and cleared IIRC.

[iamajellydonut]

He also posted an article here...

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28248_Scandal.html

[Quizzlemanizzle]

He also posted an article here...

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28248_Scandal.html

didn't know that he tried to explain himself. Still think he was aware and tricked his opponent there. He tried way too hard to reach lethal without the Visionary to not know that it was summoning sick.

I guess its possible that he was stressed out that he completely forgot about the summoning sickness when only focused on making Craterhoof as big as he could, but I seriously doubt that, he is too good and experienced for that to happen.

It might not be a cheat by definition but definitely foul play, exploiting stupidity of your opponent.

[Lemnear]

The Raging Quirion ... erm ... Elvish Visionary! XD

[Julian23]

I had some games where I attacked with a summoning sick creature after a big Glimpse turn. It happens even though I have to admit that Sam's play looked suspicious.

I initially tried sorting my creatures above/below lands to indicate which are sick and which are not but that just added too much to the clusterfuck that is an Elves board during a Glimpse turn.

My recommendation is to actually write down which creautres are not summoning sick at the beginning of a Glimpse turn, then cross them out in case they get bounced by Symbiote. I think that's the most practical, efficient and clear solution.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

I had some games where I attacked with a summoning sick creature after a big Glimpse turn. It happens even though I have to admit that Sam's play looked suspicious.

I initially tried sorting my creatures above/below lands to indicate which are sick and which are not but that just added too much to the clusterfuck that is an Elves board during a Glimpse turn.

My recommendation is to actually write down which creautres are not summoning sick at the beginning of a Glimpse turn, then cross them out in case they get bounced by Symbiote. I think that's the most practical, efficient and clear solution.

understandable but if I remember correctly Sam started with an empty board.

I remember watching this game live, it blew my mind when his opponent agreed that the Visionary was not summoning sick.

[TheArchitect]

Jared has been confirmed a cheater and has had his Rookie of the Year title revoked and has been banned for about 4 years.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/2013-2014-rookie-year-title-revoked-2014-10-30

[JDK]

Julian cheatyface. Never forget. :tongue:

Mistakes happen, but honestly, if you play such decks where it is hard to track stuff, YOU should make sure everything is easily trackable.
I love playing High Tide/Solidarity and I don't expect my opponent to count storm/mana/Meditates for me. Everything else is just sloppy, irresponsible and suspicious.

@Boettcher
Finally, thanks for the link, Architect!

[Lemnear]

Jared has been confirmed a cheater and has had his Rookie of the Year title revoked and has been banned for about 4 years.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/2013-2014-rookie-year-title-revoked-2014-10-30

Boom! Right in his face of "my case was cleared!"

[Dice_Box]

The tweet is still up... Looks funny now.

Edit:
I want this here for when it vanishes

http://i.imgur.com/QNpSAn5.png

[Quizzlemanizzle]

It's a good thing when it hits a successful known player hopefully raising awareness and stopping other cheaters.

[Ace/Homebrew]

It might not be a cheat by definition but definitely foul play, exploiting stupidity of your opponent.
If his opponent had answered "I'm not certain" instead of saying he thinks it could attack, what is the call? If neither player can remember and there is no recording equipment, is the default to assume it cannot be done?

Another common question like this is "Did I already play a land this turn?" If the opponent says "Not certain", what happens?

[Lemnear]

If his opponent had answered "I'm not certain" instead of saying he thinks it could attack, what is the call? If neither player can remember and there is no recording equipment, is the default to assume it cannot be done?

Another common question like this is "Did I already play a land this turn?" If the opponent says "Not certain", what happens?

Alex B. would play 2 ... just to be sure.


The tweet is still up... Looks funny now.

Edit:
I want this here for when it vanishes

http://i.imgur.com/QNpSAn5.png

Soooo juicy. Make this a Wallpaper

[cdr]

If his opponent had answered "I'm not certain" instead of saying he thinks it could attack, what is the call? If neither player can remember and there is no recording equipment, is the default to assume it cannot be done?

Another common question like this is "Did I already play a land this turn?" If the opponent says "Not certain", what happens?

Call a judge. Judge will attempt to ascertain the gamestate by asking questions, walking through the turn, etc and then make the call.