Witch-Maw Nemesis

[Cire]

Why the name? Hell if two color combinations have Guild names, and half of the three color combinations have Shard names, why not use the freaking awesome Nephilim names for 4 color decks? Anyway this is a UBGW deck in progress.

I was reading a couple of the threads surrounding TNN and was trying to fit it into a deck. It seems that the card would fit best in either a Merfolk deck, a UWx deck with Stoneforge Mystic or a BUGx deck with Decay and DRS. While the Merfolk deck can't be smashed together with any of the other - I just wanted to see how a deck would look with the later two crumpled up into one 4 color monstrosity.

The BUG TNN "core" looks like this (most lists include elver - but I don't think 16 creatures is an optimal amount, which would only get worse when we "combine" this with the UW core)

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 TNN
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland

The UW TNN "core" looks like (copies of above core are in italics)

4 TNN
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland

Meaning that the "Core" BUGW super list looks like:

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 TNN
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland

Seeing that this is a 4 color deck, that runs DRS, but also 4 wasteland, I think shooting for 20 total lands is the bare minimum that we should shoot for. Running any less would be suicide. So imagine the list above with 16 "land" spots taken up. That leaves 9 "free" spots to fill up.

The rules on these "free" spots are that they must have at least 6-7 blue cards in order to properly run FOW. Additionally other things to consider are what this deck tries to do. Clearly it is aggro control. This deck does not do tempo, It just lays down beats and hopes to go home with them, SFM back up or anything like that. Additionally Lilana would lose some effectiveness when going up again 16 creatures, 8 of which can beat face and kill her. So the 9 "free" spots should be geared towards anti-combo (S&T/STORM/Reanimation). So far in these 9 spots I am running the following:

4 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
2 Thought seize
1 Detention Sphere
(Including 1 Karakas)

So my list at the moment is

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 TNN
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
2 Thought seize
1 Detention Sphere

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Savannah
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Island

So far playing the deck, it feels very unwieldy, but it does feel like it has immense potential. I really think that I need to pick better cards for the "9 free spots' but I don't really know what else to use in the place of the cards I already have there. Most of the match up trouble can be solved with the sideboard which I am still thinking about, but game one, this deck has it share of amazing wins and absolutely disastrous top draws and shutouts.

Let me know if you think this concept can be saved, or should be saved?

[DragoFireheart]

Four colors AND Wastelands?

Sounds like a bad idea.

[Quasim0ff]

Four colors AND Wastelands?

Sounds like a bad idea.

No it doesn't really… It makes it weak to blood moon, but that's what Thougthseize + decay is for.

[Cire]

Four colors AND Wastelands?

Sounds like a bad idea.

Well there is some precedent with BURG (Glint-Eye :wink:) Tempo. Of course that deck runs Tarmogoyf as their highest mana cost card and then just runs a whole bunch of cantrips. So point taken? That said lets say this deck replaces the wastelands with more "real lands" - what do you think of the "9 free spots" - or what this deck is missing? Possibly STP? Daze?

----

Edit: Yes this is a Lose to Blood Deck moon - if we want to rely on decay/thought seize, we need to have basic swamps - which we need to remove wastelands for?

[klaus]

yO,

I'm currently working on a very similar, slightly more controllish approach.

Here's my list:


4 TNN
1 Clique
4 Strix
4 SFM
4 DRS
2 Birds of P. (great at wielding SOFI)
3 Decay
3 STP
4 FoW
4 BS
3 Equipments
4 TS
-39-

4 Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Strand
4 Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

3 Zealous P
3 RiP
3 Fluster Storm
3 Pierce
1 STP
2 meta slots

I'm a 100% sure this deck cannot support 4 Wasteland. Being reliant on for colors PLUS rather mana hungry (--> SFM & TNN), Wasteland just doesn't seem to belong.

[Qweerios]

This deck will end up being a Deathblade or Esperblade deck. You never see Goyf do well with SFM, they tend to be played in decks with opposite strategies, and for good reasons too. In fact, this deck doesn't need green at all except 1-2 duals for fringe DRS activations and maybe a couple of Decays (which could just be Vindicates if you think about it)

[Cire]

This deck will end up being a Deathblade or Esperblade deck. You never see Goyf do well with SFM, they tend to be played in decks with opposite strategies, and for good reasons too. In fact, this deck doesn't need green at all except 1-2 duals for fringe DRS activations and maybe a couple of Decays (which could just be Vindicates if you think about it)

I was looking through the Deathblade, Blade Control and Esperblade threads and think that while they all lean towards control in the aggro-control spectrum, this deck would be more towards the aggro in the aggro-control spectrum. I guess the goal of this list would be to try to keep the same matchups that previous blade decks while beating face towards against other blade decks.

The goal of deathblade is


Deathblade is a fair deck that gains its name from two Legacy stars, Stoneforge Mystic and Deathrite Shaman. Similar to its predecessors, Stoneblade and Esper Stoneblade, Deathblade runs the core Stoneforge Mystic and equipment package. This is a central element that many other decks have a hard time fighting through. The Deathbalde variant employs other diverse threats such as Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Geist of Saint Traft and/or Tarmogoyf. In addition to some of the game’s most aggressive, disruptive, and flexible creatures, Deathbalde has access to arguably the game’s best removal in Swords to Plowshares, disruption in Force of Will, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Thoughtseize. These elements are all held together by the cards selection power of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

So compared to Deathblade's threats of "Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Geist of Saint Traft and/or Tarmogoyf" witch-maw's threats would be True Name Nemises which replaces Geist and Clique and Goyf. The key difference is instead of playing diverse or flexible creatures we just try to run the most aggressive. Compared to Deathblades removal of "Swords to Plowshares, disruption in Force of Will, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Thoughtseize" we need to play the best removal which is all the above plus Abrupt Decay. Comparing the power of Decay to Vindicate is disingenuous. Decay is worlds better - due to it simply being cheaper. The Difference then is whether we run Jace. Which we don't.

So as far as Core - without numbers I think we need to shoot for a mix of DRS, TNN, Goyf, STM for "threats." Abrupt decay, STP, Force of Will, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Thoughtseize for "removal" and Brainstorm and Ponder for the card selection package. 3 spots reserved for swords. (also another thing to consider is engineered explosives). The biggest problem is that we run to little blue cards. . . That and there is no room for wasteland.

All this is a convoluted way of saying is that while this deck may initially be inferior to other blade variants, I think it is and will be sufficiently different to merit another thread.

[klaus]

I was looking through the Deathblade, Blade Control and Esperblade threads and think that while they all lean towards control in the aggro-control spectrum, this deck would be more towards the aggro in the aggro-control spectrum. I guess the goal of this list would be to try to keep the same matchups that previous blade decks while beating face towards against other blade decks.

The goal of deathblade is

So compared to Deathblade's threats of "Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Geist of Saint Traft and/or Tarmogoyf" witch-maw's threats would be True Name Nemises which replaces Geist and Clique and Goyf. The key difference is instead of playing diverse or flexible creatures we just try to run the most aggressive. Compared to Deathblades removal of "Swords to Plowshares, disruption in Force of Will, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Thoughtseize" we need to play the best removal which is all the above plus Abrupt Decay. Comparing the power of Decay to Vindicate is disingenuous. Decay is worlds better - due to it simply being cheaper. The Difference then is whether we run Jace. Which we don't.

So as far as Core - without numbers I think we need to shoot for a mix of DRS, TNN, Goyf, STM for "threats." Abrupt decay, STP, Force of Will, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Thoughtseize for "removal" and Brainstorm and Ponder for the card selection package. 3 spots reserved for swords. (also another thing to consider is engineered explosives). The biggest problem is that we run to little blue cards. . . That and there is no room for wasteland.

All this is a convoluted way of saying is that while this deck may initially be inferior to other blade variants, I think it is and will be sufficiently different to merit another thread.

+1 on all of the above evaluations, except for Goyfness (I'm with Queerios here) and discard being thrown in the same bucket with removal.

[Cire]

Hmm . . . so no Goyf or Wasteland? Still . . . replacing Goyf with any other creature will change the game plan from beat face with control to . . . aggro control.

The below would be a WitchMaw version of Deathblade

4 DRS
4 Baleful Strix
4 TNN
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Thought seize
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Savannah
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Not much has changed really. . . Added Swords to plowshares, one less land with the wastelands coming out for creeping tar pit and two more basics, one less spell pierce but one more thought seize. The biggest change is the replacements of goyf with strix. Is this a more meaningful direction to take this deck? With this change the similarities between this deck and deathblade are much more apparent. The major differences between the two decks now seem to be how many abrupt decays we run. I would like this deck to become much more . . . original I suppose.

That is why below I am making a list of cards I am thinking of playing:

Where is Dark Confidant? Dark confidant is a great card and a must kill. Unfortunately the only card above that it might replace is strix, and strix has the all important characteristic of being blue.
Where is loxodon smiter? I off offhandedly want to make a "non interaction deck" with uncounterable cards and TNN - the smiter is a sideboard card most of the times/ TNN is much better. However all arguments against goyf have shown me that Goyf isn't what he used to be anymore - if we ran more lands and wanted to replace strix (and replaced the thoughtseizes with more blue cards) this might be the card we turn to instead of dark confidant or goyf.
Sylvan library? Dark Confidant is better in this deck if we wanted to play this. . . mainly because it can hold a sword and this can not.
Lingering souls? Great with swords, would love to add this in. . . where is it? I was thinking of where room can be made for this and came up with the following: -1 Strix, +2 Lingering souls, -1 Thoughtseize. This leaves us with slightly less combo protection (which we are weak against) and instead increases our matchup against other Blade/Mid-size decks
Liliana of the Veil? Doesn't fit the decks MO or mana curve.
Snapcaster Mage? Again this is competing for the Strix spots. . . and unlike strix this is not a two man creature that can beat face. . . it is more of a control card which is more at home in other blade decks
Vindicate/Maelstorm Pulse? I would love to see how a deck that runs 4 DRS, 4 Noble Heirach, 4 TNN, 2 Maelstorm Pulse, 4 Vindicate, 4 Decay, 4 STP, 4 FOW, 4 Ponder, 4 BS, 2 Spell Pierce would play as. Sucks against combo and control - but against mid range. . . it will be extremely annoying. regardless there doesn't seem to be room, but adding a one of vindicate would be nice
Bitterblossom? This would compete with Lingering souls for a spot, an Lingering souls is just better, due to the two tokens right away. Additionally it can be countered and then flashbacked
Engineered Explosives: I SO WANT TO FIT THIS IN. . .

Thats what I have so far in terms of where my mind is at. If I do add Lingering souls, the change to the above list would be

-1 Strix
+2 Lingering souls
-1 Thoughtseize.

If I wanted to add the loxodon to the deck the changes would be

-3 Strix
+2 Loxodon Smiter
-1 Thought seize
-3 STP
+1 Spell Pierce
+2 Ponder
+2 Lands

I don't know if either of those changes are an improvement at all? Also a funny thought - you can actually implement the lingering soul and Loxodon changes simultaneously in fact I provid the changes in the deck list below. (This deck basically at it's core being a mix of The Rock and Deathblade now that I think about what it's trying to do.).

4 DRS
4 TNN
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Loxodon Smiter

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Thought seize
4 Spell Pierce
2 Lingering Souls
2 Ponder

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Savannah
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scrub Land
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit