[Blog Post] Delver of Secrets in Legacy Part 2: BURG & BUG

[Jonathan Alexander]

The second part of my series on Legacy Delver. This time, I'm discussing BURG and BUG and come to a conclusion as to what I would play in DC this weekend.

Delver of Secrets in Legacy Part 2: BURG & BUG (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/14/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-2-burg-bug/)

First part. (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-1-rug-deckbuilding-theory/)

Discuss!

[ESG]

Nice to have you back on these boards, Jona. Always a quality poster, thinker, and player.

[Sasan]

Thanks for the article :) But I must disagree with you concerning bUrg and the tempo mirrors. bUrg has an edge there. I frequently win versus RUG Delver. Carsten Linden does so, too.

[Lemnear]

The record of semi-good articles continues :D

http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/14/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-2-burg-bug/

Do not take that for granted what Jona states :) Carsten and I hardly lose to the tempo mirror. So the statement that bUrg loses to tempo decks is not true. The assumption that Jund beats bUrg is not true at all - it is the best tempo deck against midrange.

Don't you think that's a bit disrespectful just because another player had different experiences and doesn't praise your Pet.dec?

[Sasan]

Don't you think that's a bit disrespectful just because another player had different experiences and doesn't praise your Pet.dec?

it is not disrespectful as the smilies make clear that I do not take it personally. Readers of the primer and thread should know that I always love discussions and am never disrespectful. I think Jona knows that ;)

[Finn]

Don't take this personally. It is not intended as an attack. This is just an opportunity for me to point out a larger phenomenon with your blog as case-in-point.
I realize that this is a blog post and not an article. As an outlet for you to simply record your progress, I have nothing bad to say. You articulate your ideas well, you clearly understand the material, and your style is fine. However, it all reminds me that the Legacy metagame looks similar to ca. 2009 when there were too many good cards (which were all reasonable choices that did similar things) to fit into a single deck. Consequently, players were "tinkering" with what were already proven deck elements rather than looking for something new. When a person selects some cards in lieu of others in an environment such as this, the only thing happening is a narrowing of the deck for a particular metagame at the expense of another. This stands in contrast to testing out an idea for a new deck or actually improving upon an existing one. RUG, Deathblade, BURG, Esperblade, BUG etc. all bleed into each other in this fashion making for a continuum of cards rather than distinct decks. (Where does one stop and the next start?) Fire Covenant is a nice departure from that exercise, but you barely touched upon the one actual tech you are experimenting with. For my time, I want to read about innovation of this sort rather than something with as much value as a report by my little sister weighing the merits of which articles of makeup to include in her tiny purse.

[Megadeus]

it is not disrespectful as the smilies make clear that I do not take it personally.

Quote of the day

[ScatmanX]

I'm digging the reads. Thanks.
The issue I have with with the page is the poor editing. I copy paste it to word just to _justify it and change the font.
Also, wall of text is not that easy to read...

[Sasan]

Quote of the day

:-P yeah you are right. Jona, I respect your article and have no problems with it. I just wanted to criticize it in a light-hearted way ;)

[Jonathan Alexander]

First off, thanks for your kind words everyone! It's amazing to see any kind of discussion going on.

Regarding Sasan's remarks about the tempo mirror, Carsten also messaged me about that after reading my blog. The last time I played the deck, Florian, Carsten and I all agreed that RUG was one of the worst matchups. Also, I must say that I haven't tried out Ashiok and I can see how strong it must be if it sticks. I just don't see it resolving and staying on the board long enough to actually have an impact often enough, being a blue noncreature spell with CMC 3 and thus being hit by pretty much every piece of countermagic there is [/slight exaggeration].

Regarding Jund, sure it's better against that than regular RUG. But the matchup is still not good. Their worst card in the matchup is Dark Confidant, and if Bob is the worst card, you know something's going on.



Don't take this personally. It is not intended as an attack. This is just an opportunity for me to point out a larger phenomenon with your blog as case-in-point.
I realize that this is a blog post and not an article. As an outlet for you to simply record your progress, I have nothing bad to say. You articulate your ideas well, you clearly understand the material, and your style is fine. However, it all reminds me that the Legacy metagame looks similar to ca. 2009 when there were too many good cards (which were all reasonable choices that did similar things) to fit into a single deck. Consequently, players were "tinkering" with what were already proven deck elements rather than looking for something new. When a person selects some cards in lieu of others in an environment such as this, the only thing happening is a narrowing of the deck for a particular metagame at the expense of another. This stands in contrast to testing out an idea for a new deck or actually improving upon an existing one. RUG, Deathblade, BURG, Esperblade, BUG etc. all bleed into each other in this fashion making for a continuum of cards rather than distinct decks. (Where does one stop and the next start?) Fire Covenant is a nice departure from that exercise, but you barely touched upon the one actual tech you are experimenting with. For my time, I want to read about innovation of this sort rather than something with as much value as a report by my little sister weighing the merits of which articles of makeup to include in her tiny purse.

Thank you for your criticism. I can see where it comes from, but, to be fair, it wasn't my intention to invent some crazy tech or even an entirely new deck. I was merely trying to highlight the (in my opinion) best Delver decks in this format and come to a conclusion as to which of these I think is the best choice for the upcoming Legacy GP.
Maybe I should have been clearer about that when sharing the link; I am sorry if I misled you.



I'm digging the reads. Thanks.
The issue I have with with the page is the poor editing. I copy paste it to word just to _justify it and change the font.
Also, wall of text is not that easy to read...

Thank you for you honesty. How do you change the font and what would do to make reading easier? It would be awesome if you could give me some advice on that, as I don't care about these things all that much when reading stuff.



:-P yeah you are right. Jona, I respect your article and have no problems with it. I just wanted to criticize it in a light-hearted way ;)

It's okay, thank you. I wasn't taking anything personally. But I do think you're a little overconfident about the deck. I've been playing it from the very start and continued to do so for a few months, so I am in fact quite familiar with it. Also, I've been playing in Berlin, where it was by far the most popular deck, so figuring out how to beat it was something I was really invested in.

[twndomn]

The second part of my series on Legacy Delver. This time, I'm discussing BURG and BUG and come to a conclusion as to what I would play in DC this weekend.

Discuss!

The anti-synergy between DRS and Mongoose makes me chuckle. Since your BURG doesn't run wasteland, reaching threshold is even harder. With such fragile Mana base, I don't see how you can find black source consistently (not getting wasted). The best case scenario for utilizing DRS is turn 1 break fetchland to play DRS, setting up 3 mana for turn 2. In every other case, DRS doesn't seem to be that effective, comparing to RUG Delver or BUG Delver, just being a removal magnet.

BURG is the hybrid between RUG and BUG, doesn't have the consistency of either, but inherit the flaws of both. Don't do it for DC.

The problem with BUG is that it'll just fall over to Death and Taxes, game 1 at the least. If you can afford Jace/Liliana, why not just play Shardless BUG instead of BUG Delver?

[infiniteJ]

The second part of my series on Legacy Delver. This time, I'm discussing BURG and BUG and come to a conclusion as to what I would play in DC this weekend.

Delver of Secrets in Legacy Part 2: BURG & BUG (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/14/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-2-burg-bug/)

First part. (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-1-rug-deckbuilding-theory/)

Discuss!

I really enjoyed the article. To me, one of the most interesting things about legacy is that there are too many good cards to fit in a legacy delver deck and the minor meta adjustments that need to be made shuffling thema round.

One thing that always confused me though, as a team america player, is how come the BURG decks use mongoose, but the BUG decks use goyf? I can think of several reasons but one of those two cards must be significantly better than the other to push the design rather than the design pushing those cards right?

Also, any thoughts on the quad nemesis bug delver list that won the friday CDF event?

-IJ

[Sasan]

I really enjoyed the article. To me, one of the most interesting things about legacy is that there are too many good cards to fit in a legacy delver deck and the minor meta adjustments that need to be made shuffling thema round.

One thing that always confused me though, as a team america player, is how come the BURG decks use mongoose, but the BUG decks use goyf? I can think of several reasons but one of those two cards must be significantly better than the other to push the design rather than the design pushing those cards right?

Also, any thoughts on the quad nemesis bug delver list that won the friday CDF event?

-IJ

Do you mean the Pierre Sommen list with 16 creatures and a full playset of Goyfs and TNN? It seems very clunky.


First off, thanks for your kind words everyone! It's amazing to see any kind of discussion going on.

Regarding Sasan's remarks about the tempo mirror, Carsten also messaged me about that after reading my blog. The last time I played the deck, Florian, Carsten and I all agreed that RUG was one of the worst matchups. Also, I must say that I haven't tried out Ashiok and I can see how strong it must be if it sticks. I just don't see it resolving and staying on the board long enough to actually have an impact often enough, being a blue noncreature spell with CMC 3 and thus being hit by pretty much every piece of countermagic there is [/slight exaggeration].

Regarding Jund, sure it's better against that than regular RUG. But the matchup is still not good. Their worst card in the matchup is Dark Confidant, and if Bob is the worst card, you know something's going on.




Thank you for your criticism. I can see where it comes from, but, to be fair, it wasn't my intention to invent some crazy tech or even an entirely new deck. I was merely trying to highlight the (in my opinion) best Delver decks in this format and come to a conclusion as to which of these I think is the best choice for the upcoming Legacy GP.
Maybe I should have been clearer about that when sharing the link; I am sorry if I misled you.




Thank you for you honesty. How do you change the font and what would do to make reading easier? It would be awesome if you could give me some advice on that, as I don't care about these things all that much when reading stuff.




It's okay, thank you. I wasn't taking anything personally. But I do think you're a little overconfident about the deck. I've been playing it from the very start and continued to do so for a few months, so I am in fact quite familiar with it. Also, I've been playing in Berlin, where it was by far the most popular deck, so figuring out how to beat it was something I was really invested in.


Thanks :-) I played the deck even before it was taken to Strassbourg as Carsten had suggested in a chat that he wanted to get rid of Goyfs and he made a joke about running Shamans and I told him that I will test it. I ran nearly the same list as you had in Strasssbourg -2 Decay + 2 Dismember -1 Taiga + 1 Tropical. I am a bit over-confident on the deck, true. But I still think that RUG is better than Canadian in nearly all matchups. If there was a black Bolt I would happily change to the BUG camp. But as there is not, bUrg is the next best thing.

[lavafrogg]

Finn- I said this last week but it just reminds me of all of the threshold decks that existed, and all of the flavors of fish before that(I'm pretty sure that is an article by Dan Spero and was a good read). All the changes were doing were edging the deck better against goblins(red thresh) or solidarity(white thresh). Eventually dark confidant was printed and black thresh appeared but didn't take off until team America.

The only good 4 color build only won 1 tournament and was a 4 color list by Hemet and it won a GP(fact check?). It soon proved to be not worth the additional splash.

[Adryan]

I want to mention two theoretical flaws in your article:

1. positive matchup against U/W Miracle
2. the land advantage against U/W Miracle

First of all, Miracle is a Control deck and a Control player when he builts a deck from the scratch decides more or less against which decks he wants to have a good matchup and against which decks he accepts to have a negative matchup.

So you can never say my deck is always good against Miracle, because it depends a lot on the list you were facing.
I've tested a lot against with every deck i ever played against various Tempo decks, because i don't touch decks that are not good against them.

The land advantage of tempo decks gets diminished the longer the game goes because more cards become dead. It even gets worse when you face SDT because the longer the game goes the better card quality your opponent will get.
I only struggle against Tempo decks if they kill me fast while i struggle to make landdrops.
If you play the long game where you play one threat after another you will just lose because i can now take complete advantage from all my landdrops.

Nevertheless good article, and a nice read. keep the good work up.

[Jonathan Alexander]

If you want to put it like that, no deck ever consistently beats any deck, so sorry, but I don't see your point. You can always gear your deck for a specific matchup. Take Elves for example. The list Lukas Maurer piloted to second place at GP Ghent last year had a very bad matchup against Timo's Storm list. That was nothing special at that time. Now, the Elves deck has changed and the matchup is much better, though still not favourable. It is always possible to pile up on hate for whatever deck it is you want to beat, but against the stock lists, you can say that a matchup is good or bad.

Regarding the land advantage, in postboard games this is a very real factor and it's entirely possible for the tempo decks to out-control the control decks, especially for BURG. If you board out all the softcounters, what bad cards are left? Well, none. It is impossible for control decks to take advantage of their landdrops without getting ahead on cards, that's why I said in my article that it's important to not let them generate cardadvantage.