Bertoncini, back in business.

[Kayradis]

Saw him in DC, seems like he's doing fine at SCGPRO.
Should we give him a second chance?
I say no. Opinion?

[Tammit67]

I can't see this thread being productive at all

[Megadeus]

Bertoncini bashing thread. Activate!

[SirTylerGalt]

Bertoncini bashing thread. Activate!

Is that a reference to this 4chan post: http://i.imgur.com/nRPzL67.png ?

On the one hand, I don't like what Bertoncini did. On the other hand, he already got punished for it, and it's not fair to continue punishing him. Maybe he changed?

[Tormod]

I'm not a fan,

The guy did his time, lets move on.

[Megadeus]

Is that a reference to this 4chan post: http://i.imgur.com/nRPzL67.png ?

On the one hand, I don't like what Bertoncini did. On the other hand, he already got punished for it, and it's not fair to continue punishing him. Maybe he changed?

LOL. I didn't see that post. Epic though. If half of the shit that people spew on 4 chan is true I'll be happy

[apple713]

The problem is that the punishment didnt fit the crime. Life ban is appropriate for multiple explicit intentional instances of cheating.

I wouldnt feel. Comfortable playing against him because i would be distracted trying to watch for bim to cheat to focus on my turns and responses

[Megadeus]

The problem is that the punishment didnt fit the crime. Life ban is appropriate for multiple explicit intentional instances of cheating.

I wouldnt feel. Comfortable playing against him because i would be distracted trying to watch for bim to cheat to focus on my turns and responses
I don't really generally pay attention to my opponents in matches, so Im sure Ive been cheated at least once, but I wonder what I would do if I were paired against him. I honestly do not know.

[apple713]

I don't really generally pay attention to my opponents in matches, so Im sure Ive been cheated at least once, but I wonder what I would do if I were paired against him. I honestly do not know.

Id cAll a judge to watch our game but even at that with as successful as he has been at cheating i wouldnt feel comfortable that the judge would necessarily catch all of the cheats either.

[Megadeus]

Lol. One question that they asked T8 Competitors was "What's the most misunderstood card in Legacy?" Bertoncini said "Explore".

[Anen]

Lol. One question that they asked T8 Competitors was "What's the most misunderstood card in Legacy?" Bertoncini said "Explore".

Are you sure you understand it the way it should be understood? ^^

Anyway, another guy said Explore. Some sort of private joke I guess..

[Grand Superior]

Age: Yes, that one.
Occupation: Miss me?

And for those that don't know, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrXESPkyMQ8) should explain Explore and Bertoncini.

[Megadeus]

He's just being a douchey idiot for the sake of it I guess.

[Grand Superior]

What I don't know is how he's still allowed to play in SCG events. All of his high profile instances of cheating were in SCG Opens and Invitationals. He can still play Magic at Grand Prixs and such, sure, but I don't know why SCG didn't just blacklist him from their events.

[thecrav]

I can't see this thread being productive at all

http://www.myteespot.com/images/Images_d/img_4lRWjP.jpg


What I don't know is how he's still allowed to play in SCG events. All of his high profile instances of cheating were in SCG Opens and Invitationals. He can still play Magic at Grand Prixs and such, sure, but I don't know why SCG didn't just blacklist him from their events.

I had thought they'd blacklisted him, but I re-checked the announcement (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/23283_Statement_from_SCG_President_Pete_Hoefling_Regarding_Alex_Bertoncini.html) and nope. As much as they probably dislike him, He draws attention (see this thread), which is the purpose of the open series.

[Megadeus]

He's in the finals. Everyone keep a sharp eye out whenever Alex moves his hand ;)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No cheating there. Totally bombed the finals.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Kayradis]

I was watching him play in DC and he didn't seem to have changed his way of playing.
Fast and sloppy.
I'm still not 100% convinced he learned. I don't know. Maybe it's just me. I always been told by my old man "once a cheater, always a cheater"

[syfilisx]

I watched him stream and he seems bit hyperactive, maybe it's just him.
Anyways, he has been putting good results after lifting of his ban.
I hope all best for him if he's playing as we are supposed.

[Kayradis]

If he stopped his shenanigans, great! I wouldn't be more happy.
But I'm still suspicious!

[Worldslayer]

I watched him stream and he seems bit hyperactive, maybe it's just him.
Anyways, he has been putting good results after lifting of his ban.
I hope all best for him if he's playing as we are supposed.

He was putting up results before his ban. That was kind of the issue.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I was watching him play in DC and he didn't seem to have changed his way of playing.
Fast and sloppy.
I'm still not 100% convinced he learned. I don't know. Maybe it's just me. I always been told by my old man "once a cheater, always a cheater"

The constant jokes he makes about cheating/explore tells me he has only learned to avoid getting caught. He's a scumbag.

[TsumiBand]

The constant jokes he makes about cheating/explore tells me he has only learned to avoid getting caught. He's a scumbag.

I haven't seen or heard any of this personally, I just hopped on this thread, but if this is the case that's pretty disappointing.

The whole "sorry not sorry" vibe that comes off of some players is just grating as all hell. It's one thing to joke about your previous transgressions; if you're genuinely sorry, it comes off in your attitude and the content of your speech. If instead, you sound like one of those kids who is always joking about how much detention they get, or you sound like one of those guys who can't stay out of jail and jokes about the time they did/are doing/will do… then yeah, there's no reform there. Obvious troll is obvious.

For my part, I've seen people that have done "time", in many senses of the word, and I'd like to think I know what real apology looks like. If he's paid his dues to the scene and he can carry himself responsibly, then that should be the end of the conversation.

[Arsenal]

I don't know for sure, but didn't Alex have his twitter/blog/something named "TwoExplores"? Could just be a rumor to further damage his reputation. Anyone can confirm?

[Aetherick]

I don't know for sure, but didn't Alex have his twitter/blog/something named "TwoExplores"? Could just be a rumor to further damage his reputation. Anyone can confirm?

His twitch account is twoexplores

[Arsenal]

His twitch account is twoexplores

Damn. What a douche.

[syfilisx]

I don't know but to me that twoexplore's twitch-name seems like a good way to deal with all jokers asking him to sign explores and making all those photoshop manipulations about him...
But yeah, I like to believe in second changes, his SCG Top8 profile was bit "in your face"-style, but we will see what comes of this.

[Kayradis]

I hope is aware that everybody watches him and at his first transgression, everybody will man the harpoons....

[Esper3k]

I say if someone did their punishment, then I'd like to say their "debt" has been repaid.

However, Bertoncini's actions (didn't he get his suspension extended for being a douchebag on a stream?) show to me that he feels no remorse over what he did so I can't see the game being better off with him in it.

[PirateKing]

Isn't the natural order going to play out where now he's (in)famous for his doings, he can either play fair or cheat under increased scrutiny.
And don't the penalties for repeat offenses move toward lifetime bans?

[YamiJoey]

Lighten the fuck up. If anyone can make jokes about him being a cheater and getting banned it's him. If he gets caught again then ban him, sure, but until he does again he should be allowed to play. He was suspended and now he isn't. No big deal.

[Arsenal]

In a competitive environment, especially when there's money at stake, cheating is often times a black mark that no fine/suspension will ever be able to wipe clean. If you look at well-known cheaters in other competitve arenas, their respective legacies are permanently sullied, even if they paid their fine/suspension.

[Kayradis]

In a competitive environment, especially when there's money at stake, cheating is often times a black mark that no fine/suspension will ever be able to wipe clean. If you look at well-known cheaters in other competitve arenas, their respective legacies are permanently sullied, even if they paid their fine/suspension.

+1

[Stan]

What did they ban him for exactly?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What did they ban him for exactly?

He juggled with chainsaws and one of them cut away some dude's head.
Totally for real.

[Julian23]

He juggled with chainsaws and one of them cut away some dude's head.
Totally for real.

He then failed to immediately call a judge on himself and just continued the match. Otherwise he would have gotten away with a game loss; maybe even just a warning.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

He then failed to immediately call a judge on himself and just continued the match. Otherwise he would have gotten away with a game loss; maybe even just a warning.
Nono, it was before the change on missed bodyparts.

[Julian23]

What did they ban him for exactly?

On a more serious note: he had built up an "impressive" record of infractions, with some of the most prominent ones also caught on tape.

This is the most infamous one - "Two Explores".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd7cd-K8ImQ


There's also the is the Kira Cheat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZYQh6TR-hQ), where he just bounces it back to his hand instead of it dying to Cursed Scroll. I love how the commentators don't catch it and subsequently wonder about how he seems to have a 3rd Kira, lol.

There were several others, of course. In the end, basically everyone was calling for a suspensions. He was suspended...
..the week after he won the SCG Invitational ($10.000 + Power9).

http://www.starcitygames.com/scglive/images/20111211203159000000.jpg

Here's an extensive article by Drew Levin on the whole issues: Unlocking the cheats of scg player of the year alex bertoncini (http://mixedknuts.wordpress.com/2011/12/12/unlocking-the-cheats-of-scg-player-of-the-year-alex-bertoncini/)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm glad he punted. Jerk.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Warr]

I played him Sunday and he appeared to me to be playing very tight. For example, he very clearly showed the 2 cards he was putting back for each brainstorm. That's only 1 anecdote though. Time will tell.

[Michael Keller]

I could care less if he's playing Magic again.

['Nilla Pac]

If he were apologetic and made any attempt to acknowledge that he was a short sighted stupid kid too caught up with winning, I might give him the benefit of the doubt and have sympathy for him. What do we get instead?

Occupation: Miss Me?
What's the most misunderstood card in Legacy? Explore


Looks like a good indication that he has no conscience at all. He'll make a great politician.

[nedleeds]

I don't understand unbanning such a savage piece of shit. It benefits nobody. The DCI is never worse off for having him never play again. Nothing positive can ever happen for anyone other than him. This isn't voting, or driving, or bearing arms ... it's sanctioned Magic.

[cdr]

There's a variety of motivations to cheat. As far as compulsive cheaters go, I don't think I've ever seen one that was able to stop.

['Nilla Pac]

The written coverage doesn't make any mention at all about Alex's past. I didn't watch the live coverage - did they omit his history there as well?

[Megadeus]

The written coverage doesn't make any mention at all about Alex's past. I didn't watch the live coverage - did they omit his history there as well?

Dont think they referenced it at all.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What's the most misunderstood card in Legacy? Explore


Looks like a good indication that he has no conscience at all. He'll make a great politician.

Guy can't make joke? Imho he even makes fun of himself...

[Megadeus]

Combined with the "Miss Me" and such, it kinda comes off as arrogant and douchey. I'm fine with arrogance, but if you are being arrogant about being a cheater and winning and getting banned for it, then I have a problem with it.

[danyul]

The written coverage doesn't make any mention at all about Alex's past. I didn't watch the live coverage - did they omit his history there as well?

They deliberately kept him off of coverage for as long as possible, until he made it to the finals and it became unavoidable. They also seemed to try to mention his name as little as possible. There was a weird tension in the air.

[Megadeus]

They deliberately kept him off of coverage for as long as possible, until he made it to the finals and it became unavoidable. They also seemed to try to mention his name as little as possible. There was a weird tension in the air.

I was noticing this too. I wondered why he was never on a feature match the entire top 8.

[mini1337s]

I'm not a Bertoncini fanboy by any means, but the guy "did his time." I assume that his opponent's are watching him like a hawk and we'd hear about it if he was caught getting a single GRV. I'd give him a break, unless there is proof he's cheating again.

[Lemnear]

He can make fun about mistakes he did, but this looks like adding insult to injury to all his victims. It's not like he showed any sign of humility in the past 1,5 years. I can't understand SCG for not lifetime-ban him from their tournaments after he damaged their reputation in such a way.

Funny that he was immediately able to make the finals without being able to participate in sanctioned magic for 18 months (please correct me if the ban wasn't for 18 months and my Memory fails) without any signs of rust. Seems like he worked on his dexterity lol. Noteable that his luck left as he was on camera

Sorry, but if you are a steady top performer at such big events I expect that there's always something fishy

[Megadeus]

Some players are good. Im sure he is a good player. And Im sure he played magic in his time off. Not a fan of his but I mean he seems like a generally good player. Especially compared the average Open competitor.

[Aggro_zombies]

He can make fun about mistakes he did, but this looks like adding insult to injury to all his victims. It's not like he showed any sign of humility in the past 1,5 years. I can't understand SCG for not lifetime-ban him from their tournaments after he damaged their reputation in such a way.

Funny that he was immediately able to make the finals without being able to participate in sanctioned magic for 18 months (please correct me if the ban wasn't for 18 months and my Memory fails) without any signs of rust. Seems like he worked on his dexterity lol. Noteable that his luck left as he was on camera

Sorry, but if you are a steady top performer at such big events I expect that there's always something fishy
Presumably, he was able to practice with friends or whatever while he was banned. It's not like Wizards can prevent you from acquiring product.

Also, can't you play on MTGO while being banned from tournaments? IIRC you can't really win anything in the big ones like MOCS, but you might still be able to do 8-mans.

[Finn]

As far as compulsive cheaters go, I don't think I've ever seen one that was able to stop.This.

My brother used to cheat now and again at everything from Monopoly to Axis and Allies to poker when we were growing up. He is four years older and just wanted to get one over on me, my cousins, my friends, etc. I don't know that we ever caught him, but he always revealed that he had done so after the game. He would laugh at us and tell us about how he was on the ropes, would have lost for sure, and just wanted to have some fun at our expense. As an adult, my brother is honest to a fault.

This is not what motivates this guy. I bet it is compulsive. He has done so on camera for Pete's sake. He even continued to do so after getting a reputation. It is like a guy with a gambling problem or a thrill-seeker.

[Lord Seth]

There were several others, of course. In the end, basically everyone was calling for a suspensions. He was suspended...
..the week after he won the SCG Invitational ($10.000 + Power9).
I'm not sure about the Power 9, but I remember SCG revoked his prize money due to the ban, and then made it official policy that anyone under investigation by the DCI will have their prizes withheld until said investigation is over.

As to his lack of feature matches in the Grand Prix, in a way it's problematic, because it's much harder to get away with cheating on a feature match.


Funny that he was immediately able to make the finals without being able to participate in sanctioned magic for 18 months (please correct me if the ban wasn't for 18 months and my Memory fails) without any signs of rust.Hasn't Jon Finkel been away for longer periods of time than that before coming back and getting a big finish?

[warfordium]

Presumably, he was able to practice with friends or whatever while he was banned. It's not like Wizards can prevent you from acquiring product.

Also, can't you play on MTGO while being banned from tournaments? IIRC you can't really win anything in the big ones like MOCS, but you might still be able to do 8-mans.

i came across his MTGO stream on twitch a little while back—seems he was able to play dailies or at least 8-4's. i remember thinking to myself "at least its impossible for him to cheat on MODO!" then part of me died a little when i realized he'd probably ghost if he had the chance. :frown:

[Megadeus]

I'm not sure about the Power 9, but I remember SCG revoked his prize money due to the ban, and then made it official policy that anyone under investigation by the DCI will have their prizes withheld until said investigation is over.

As to his lack of feature matches in the Grand Prix, in a way it's problematic, because it's much harder to get away with cheating on a feature match.

Hasn't Jon Finkel been away for longer periods of time than that before coming back and getting a big finish?

It was the SCG Open which made it more awkward because that is the series he was cheating on a lot. Probably was why he was never on cam.

As for Finkel I forget the amount of time, but he did come back and Top 8'd a GP with Esper Spirits in Standard. Double Drogskol Captain was pretty insane.

[Lord Seth]

It was the SCG Open which made it more awkward because that is the series he was cheating on a lot. Probably was why he was never on cam.
Whoops! For some reason I thought it was the Washington GP.

[raudo]

They should take back his prizes. Everyone in big tournaments should sign on something like "if you get caught for cheating you lose your prizes". Like athletics and doping.

Then 2 year ban for first cheating and lifetime for second.

My two cents.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Funny that he was immediately able to make the finals without being able to participate in sanctioned magic for 18 months (please correct me if the ban wasn't for 18 months and my Memory fails) without any signs of rust.


I've heard of an electronic device called Magical Online Playstation, but I consider these rumors to be false.
Also, does anybody know if it's true that the DCI agents were given right to enter one's private property if there's a suspicion that an unsanctioned Magic is happening there? Isn't this in collision with Constitution, Bill of Rights and UN Charter?

[Kayradis]

It's all covered by the Patriot Act

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm pretty sure that's not how any of this works.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[phonics]

I doesn't matter much to me but the dude is a prolific cheater, with the audacity to even do it while being recorded, while taking two sets of power and a ton of money that should have gone to actual deserving winners in the process. Isn't it like he stole tens of thousands of dollars and is now laughing in their faces all the way to the bank?

[thecrav]

Also, does anybody know if it's true that the DCI agents were given right to enter one's private property if there's a suspicion that an unsanctioned Magic is happening there? Isn't this in collision with Constitution, Bill of Rights and UN Charter?

The DCI has drones so they don't have to get their hands dirty.

[Lord Seth]

I doesn't matter much to me but the dude is a prolific cheater, with the audacity to even do it while being recorded, while taking two sets of power and a ton of money that should have gone to actual deserving winners in the process.And that makes it worse... how? No, really, how is it somehow more moral to cheat off camera than on camera?


Isn't it like he stole tens of thousands of dollars and is now laughing in their faces all the way to the bank?You mean the "tens of thousands of dollars" (actually only $10,000) that SCG didn't give him because of his suspension?

[android]

If this was the wild west & a game of poker....just sayin'. No more Alex.

[Gammadoom]

The crazier thing than Bertoncini finishing second, at least to me, is that Drew Levin still has the audacity to call anyone out on being a cheater after the team trios fiasco in Richmond. Just astounding.

[android]

Most human beings are born with a moral compass. He either doesn't have one or he chose not to follow it on repeated occasions. He should never be allowed to play sanctioned magic. It sickens me that there is this blurred line among many professional magic players who opt to leave gamesmanship on the wayside for hedging their odds to come out a winner. Everyone sticking up for them just don't get it. This isn't supposed to be a game of "what can I get away with this time".

[Lord Seth]

The crazier thing than Bertoncini finishing second, at least to me, is that Drew Levin still has the audacity to call anyone out on being a cheater after the team trios fiasco in Richmond. Just astounding.
I have no idea what this refers to, and searching for "Drew Levin Richmond" does not help me out either. Could you clarify?

[HammafistRoob]

The crazier thing than Bertoncini finishing second, at least to me, is that Drew Levin still has the audacity to call anyone out on being a cheater after the team trios fiasco in Richmond. Just astounding.

What fiasco? Got a link?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Most human beings are born with a moral compass. He either doesn't have one or he chose not to follow it on repeated occasions. He should never be allowed to play sanctioned magic. It sickens me that there is this blurred line among many professional magic players who opt to leave gamesmanship on the wayside for hedging their odds to come out a winner. Everyone sticking up for them just don't get it. This isn't supposed to be a game of "what can I get away with this time".

You know that a life-time ban takes whole life to lift, don't you? I find it very harsh to not give the man a second chance. Maybe it was a bit son and they should have kept him out of sanctioned Magic for a longer time, but well, it could be his only hobby so why should he return to it in 2055?
Otoh, he should have not cheated...

What's the fiasco?

[Gammadoom]

What fiasco? Got a link?

Sadly everything is in a closed Facebook group, including an official statement from Jared Silva on the matter. Nothing was officially posted anywhere that I know of, which some people have opined was blatant nepotism shown towards a SCG writer and his team (I'm of the opinion that SCG is generally a better company than that). I'd copy/paste the relevant bits, but I believe that damages all of the integrity of what's been said. Anyone that wants to do their own research can join the Richmond, VA Magic group and do a simple search to find it and form your own opinion. My opinion is that I'd like to use Drew's anti-Alex article as toilet paper for the rest of my days. I hold no love for Bertoncini as I'm Captain Fairplay, but glass houses and whatnot.

The fiasco was that their team opened a ridiculous sealed pool, and then didn't participate in the deck swap process. That's what I know to be true. There's various other things that were overheard/found out at the tournament, but not directly by me so I won't repeat them as they are nothing more than hearsay at that point.

[Griselpuff]

So what the hell happened after that? They played with their ridiculous sealed pool and got caught? I don't even know how you could get away with something like that without collusion from the TOs or judges.

[Gammadoom]

So what the hell happened after that? They played with their ridiculous sealed pool and got caught? I don't even know how you could get away with something like that without collusion from the TOs or judges.

They got reported after round three (I know this as a fact). They were allowed to continue in the tournament with the same pool and made the semi-finals.

[UnderwaterGuy]

The fiasco was that their team opened a ridiculous sealed pool, and then didn't participate in the deck swap process. That's what I know to be true. There's various other things that were overheard/found out at the tournament, but not directly by me so I won't repeat them as they are nothing more than hearsay at that point.

Well I've got to say, cheating by colluding with tournament organizers might be even worse than sleight of hand cheating. That's a messed up thing to happen at any event.

[lordofthepit]

If I were in charge of the DCI, intentional cheating--especially in Bertoncini's case where the evidence is so extensive and damning--should result in a lifetime banning. Certainly something more than 18 months, as there's no place in the game for cheaters.

However, the DCI is the sanctioning body of this game, and Bertoncini's served his time. I hope for the sake of the game that he's genuinely reformed, although I feel that all too often, violators (cheaters and otherwise) who are given second chances by the community end up re-offending. Obviously, I think we'll have to reluctantly accept that he's back in the game, monitor him more vigilantly, and hope that he's turned over a new leaf.

[Gammadoom]

If I were in charge of the DCI, intentional cheating--especially in Bertoncini's case where the evidence is so extensive and damning--should result in a lifetime banning. Certainly something more than 18 months, as there's no place in the game for cheaters.

However, the DCI is the sanctioning body of this game, and Bertoncini's served his time. I hope for the sake of the game that he's genuinely reformed, although I feel that all too often, violators (cheaters and otherwise) who are given second chances by the community end up re-offending. Obviously, I think we'll have to reluctantly accept that he's back in the game, monitor him more vigilantly, and hope that he's turned over a new leaf.

If Mike Long and Trey Van Cleave are any indication, I'm sure we'll see Alex's name back on the banned list before you know it.

[sdematt]

If I were in charge of the DCI, intentional cheating--especially in Bertoncini's case where the evidence is so extensive and damning--should result in a lifetime banning. Certainly something more than 18 months, as there's no place in the game for cheaters.

However, the DCI is the sanctioning body of this game, and Bertoncini's served his time. I hope for the sake of the game that he's genuinely reformed, although I feel that all too often, violators (cheaters and otherwise) who are given second chances by the community end up re-offending. Obviously, I think we'll have to reluctantly accept that he's back in the game, monitor him more vigilantly, and hope that he's turned over a new leaf.

In my opinion, SCG should ban him from their circuit. He really made a mockery of the circuit, and really let them down, being one of their "celebrity" players and all.

But, controversy brings viewership. Maybe they don't want to be the heavy, I don't know. Alls I know is that when I'm at the Invitational and I have to face him, it's disconcerting to think that he has an edge since I can't keep my full concentration on him, but I have to always keep an eye out to make sure there's no foul play, here. I can't really just call a judge to watch a match based on past offenses, can I?

-Matt

[cdr]

Everyone deserves a second chance. When someone gets caught for a second time - especially while displaying an attitude - the second suspension is not going to be short.

[Zllig]

I was disappointed in his bushleague trolling attempt with the most misunderstood legacy card answer. I was really hoping there would be 2 Explores in his sideboard, I'm sure he could have found room. Really dropped the ball.

[PirateKing]

Not sure which makes SCG look worse; letting him back or blacklisting him for life.

[Madmaniac21]

Everyone deserves a second chance. When someone gets caught for a second time - especially while displaying an attitude - the second suspension is not going to be short.

This is the problem. He was only eventually punished after being caught MULTIPLE TIMES ON VIDEO. He just finally got punished once, not caught once. It's not a 1 time occurence. There should have been a separate punishment for each piece of video proof.

Maybe not sanctioned magic ban, but SCG wants to let him play any of their events after he robbed them of a set of power and all those prizes that should have gone to legit players? Dumb.

[Kayradis]

Where is that Ben Bleinwess (did I typed it right?) when we need him?

[luckme10]

Where is that Ben Bleinwess (did I typed it right?) when we need him?

I think it's spelled Ben Blindwuss. Because he's looking the other way.
Ba-Da-Bing!

[davelin]

Not sure which makes SCG look worse; letting him back or blacklisting him for life.

Why would blacklisting him be worse?

[PirateKing]

Why would blacklisting him be worse?

A legitimate business and tournament organizer falling victim to mob justice when the otherwise ruling judicial system (DCI) has already rendered and investigation and punishment.

Like let's say SCG puts out a statement saying they won't allow tournament entries for convicted felons, without some sort of joint venture between the courts, purely on their own precedent. Is everybody okay with that? If everybody was okay with that, would it still be okay?

The game has rules, and if you break them, there are rules for that.

[davelin]

A legitimate business and tournament organizer falling victim to mob justice when the otherwise ruling judicial system (DCI) has already rendered and investigation and punishment.

Like let's say SCG puts out a statement saying they won't allow tournament entries for convicted felons, without some sort of joint venture between the courts, purely on their own precedent. Is everybody okay with that? If everybody was okay with that, would it still be okay?

The game has rules, and if you break them, there are rules for that.

This is silly. The DCI or whatever doesnt set rules how a private store can conduct its business. If SCG feels allowing him entry hurts their business (which you can certainly argue for), its fully within its rights to do so.

[Esper3k]

This is silly. The DCI or whatever doesnt set rules how a private store can conduct its business. If SCG feels allowing him entry hurts their business (which you can certainly argue for), its fully within its rights to do so.

To me, it's like if someone got caught cheating at a LGS and got banned from the store. Even if their DCI suspension is up, the LGS is under no obligation to allow them back into their store.

[UnderwaterGuy]

A legitimate business and tournament organizer falling victim to mob justice when the otherwise ruling judicial system (DCI) has already rendered and investigation and punishment.

Like let's say SCG puts out a statement saying they won't allow tournament entries for convicted felons, without some sort of joint venture between the courts, purely on their own precedent. Is everybody okay with that? If everybody was okay with that, would it still be okay?

The game has rules, and if you break them, there are rules for that.

I don't think I follow you here. SCG is running a business with their tournaments and bertoncini cheated in their tournaments to the extent that he won thousands and thousands of dollars. Most stores/businesses would not continue to do business with someone that had previously cheated/stolen from them. He came in second in this recent tournament, right? So they just paid out even more prize support to him after we all know he has previously gotten large prizes illegitimately.

It'd be like a store allowing someone that was caught shoplifting there to continue to be a regular customer. It's certainly possible but it seems like a strange choice to make.

[PirateKing]

If a small store wants to ban someone from their tiny weekly $20 store credit tournaments, it's their venue, they can enforce whatever discrimination they see fit, unless otherwise outlawed.

But Star City Games, as a tournament organizer, is just a little but bigger then that. They've positioned themselves to be industry leaders in the scope of the secondary market and tournament organization. Which is to say, they should be held to a higher standard. Any action they take coinciding with a press release and references to procedure guide illustrating why they did what they did.

Though all this is just what I think they should do. Everybody is right, SCG is under no real obligation to let him in or ban him. Hell, the could write the rules such that everybody is allowed to enter, but a list of people are ineligible for prizes. But i would not be okay with it.

[davelin]

If a small store wants to ban someone from their tiny weekly $20 store credit tournaments, it's their venue, they can enforce whatever discrimination they see fit, unless otherwise outlawed.

But Star City Games, as a tournament organizer, is just a little but bigger then that. They've positioned themselves to be industry leaders in the scope of the secondary market and tournament organization. Which is to say, they should be held to a higher standard. Any action they take coinciding with a press release and references to procedure guide illustrating why they did what they did.



This argues more for the ban, not against.

[r3dd09]

http://i.imgur.com/GaUo3HY.jpg

[Kayradis]

I think this sums it all!

[PirateKing]

This argues more for the ban, not against.

The argument is against having, at this point, two equally large organizations (SCG/DCI) potentially having inconsistent and conflicting outcomes to the same event. If he's banned he should be banned, and if he's not, then unmolested he shall play. I'm not arguing for or against him, I just don't want an precedent where someone is investigated by the DCI for cheating, found innocent, then have the world's largest tournament organizer say no prizes and get out.

[davelin]

The argument is against having, at this point, two equally large organizations (SCG/DCI) potentially having inconsistent and conflicting outcomes to the same event. If he's banned he should be banned, and if he's not, then unmolested he shall play. I'm not arguing for or against him, I just don't want an precedent where someone is investigated by the DCI for cheating, found innocent, then have the world's largest tournament organizer say no prizes and get out.

I'm not sure what the issue is with consistency, especially when the two organizations have different goals and different things at stake. I'm perfectly fine with two different organizations having two separate responses to the same event.

[cdr]

As a reminder, "the DCI" doesn't actually exist and never really did. There's an investigation committee of senior judges that sends recommendations to WotC. WotC used "the DCI" as a pretext to look more professional from the mid 90s to mid 00s, but they dropped even the DCI name years back.

I would substitute "WotC" personally, but whatever floats your boat.

[clavio]

http://i.imgur.com/GaUo3HY.jpg

Did Drew ever apologize for his gambling? I remember him denying it, claiming it was just a joke. But keep calling the kettle black bro.

[cdr]

Did Drew ever apologize for his gambling? I remember him denying it, claiming it was just a joke. But keep calling the kettle black bro.

Betting ain't cheating, and he probably wouldn't be DQed again today in the same circumstances.

[PirateKing]

davelin
I think they're goals and stakes are very much intertwined, but if you're fine with different responses, then okay.


cdr
I've been personally substituting "shadow government" as I type these out, but find people take a different tone then. But yeah, the governing body of tournament rules and infractions of Magic by Wizards, the people who manage and maintain the Suspended DCI Membership list, and thus, admittance into any sanctioned tournaments.

[Gammadoom]

Did Drew ever apologize for his gambling? I remember him denying it, claiming it was just a joke. But keep calling the kettle black bro.

He never apologized for the "keepsies"" in Richmond either. Why would he? He probably doesn't see anything wrong with what he did.

[Griselpuff]

WTF how have there not been consequences for the keepsies thing? That's just absurd.

Did the judges just look it over? I don't understand...

[clavio]

He never apologized for the "keepsies"" in Richmond either. Why would he? He probably doesn't see anything wrong with what he did.

What is this? I tried googling Drew Levin Keepsies and nothing came up. I'd love to hear about it.

[davelin]

What is this? I tried googling Drew Levin Keepsies and nothing came up. I'd love to hear about it.

Something about a sick sealed pooled being kept instead of redistributed. Hopefully someone else has more specifics.

[Gammadoom]

WTF how have there not been consequences for the keepsies thing? That's just absurd.

Did the judges just look it over? I don't understand...

As I said previously, the official statement from Jared Silva is still available in the Facebook group. There's also a copy of the statement from his teammate indicating that he was sorry for affecting the integrity of the tournament and would be donating his winnings to charity.

If you decide to join the group to find the whole story, search for Jarvis instead of Drew. The local players had much more to say about Jarvis, so you'll find more information that way.

[r3dd09]

Since we're talking about other cheaters and DQ's. http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=20059

[Gammadoom]

WTF how have there not been consequences for the keepsies thing? That's just absurd.

Did the judges just look it over? I don't understand...

It's probably a major hassle to get into that Facebook group, so I've changed my mind and I'm going to copy/paste Jared Silva's official statement on the matter. I am copy/pasting the entirety of this one post that he made to us as a one-time thing as people seem to be interested in the matter.


Jared Sylva Hi everyone, Christopher Hickman added me to the group to try to address the concerns raised here. I've read through the comments here and first I want to thank some of the judges who spoke up for the official protocol. Unfortunately, because of that, I don't have much to add outside of this: at StarCityGames, we strive to put some of the top judges in the world at the head of our events. Kim Warren, head judge of the team sealed event, is very accomplished Level 3 and the Regional Coordinator for the United Kingdom. She has our full confidence and I fully believe that she investigated this incident fully and made her decision based on all of the information that she was able to gather. I also believe that she has more complete information than any of the people who have been questioning the decision and that partial information can be very misleading.

One thing that I can speak to is the official procedures for this type of incident. The decision here is between two infractions: Tournament Error - Failure to Follow Official Announcements and Unsporting Conduct - Cheating. There is a single determining factor in making this decision: whether the Head Judge believes that the failure to exchange pools was due to an error, or was intentional. As has been brought up earlier, if the Head Judge believes that a player has lied to them during the investigation, that can get us to UC - Cheating through a different path. As to the statements regarding the experience of the team in question, it comes into play, but it is not remotely as damning as it has been made out. Team Sealed is a rare format and procedures for it are neither codified nor consistent. If the team believed that it was following the official instructions, they were not cheating, regardless of whether they "knew better."

[phonics]

And that makes it worse... how? No, really, how is it somehow more moral to cheat off camera than on camera?

You mean the "tens of thousands of dollars" (actually only $10,000) that SCG didn't give him because of his suspension?

It doesn't make it worse, it makes it more stupid because basically dug his own grave, though I suppose near the end of it he was too popular to avoid the camera. And in terms of winnings, I wasnt aware that he didnt get the winnings of that invitational or points leader thing they had back then afterwards, but I am pretty sure he kept the power, and the set of power for the previous points contest as well as the completed playsets of standard sets for being at a certain points level, and other tournament winnings on top of that, he got a fair bit of money.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I was witness to a match between Alex and an L4 judge at GPDC and asked him (the L4) after the match and out of earshot of Alex about whether or not he was actively looking for cheating on Alex's part. To my surprise, he said he wasn't concerned with it in slightest. I'm fairly certain that there's a general opinion in the higher echelons of the judge program that Alex has reformed.

[Malakai]

Look at it this way. There are basically two options, either let him play or ban him forever.

If he continues to play:

Any player who knows his history is at a disadvantage even if he doesn't cheat.
He may cheat again, and still has all the learned skills required to do so.
There is controversey around any results he puts up that damage the integrity of the game and the tournament series he puts said results up at. Example: this thread


If he gets banned forever:

Some people complain that this is unjust.
There is one less notable professional player.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't feel like tournament Magic is so fledgling that it needs to hang onto every notable player it can get its hands on. It's not as if he was missed while he was gone.

[Kayradis]

I was witness to a match between Alex and an L4 judge at GPDC and asked him (the L4) after the match and out of earshot of Alex about whether or not he was actively looking for cheating on Alex's part. To my surprise, he said he wasn't concerned with it in slightest. I'm fairly certain that there's a general opinion in the higher echelons of the judge program that Alex has reformed.

I don't know why but I always had a bad impression about the French L4 that was there in DC. I went to a couple GP he HJ'd and I always felt like he was an idiot...

[Ellomdian]

I'm fairly certain that there's a general opinion in the higher echelons of the judge program that Alex has reformed.

No offense Darkshine, but considering the Stuff that Goes On L4+ that most L3's don't even know about, unless you are a 4+, I think that's a bit of an over-reach. The DCI is not a parole board deciding if you are reformed - the rare Discretionary Indefinite suspensions have generally involved organizer fraud. Their job is to ensure the integrity of events as a whole, and unless there is someone playing under an active suspension, individual players rarely make waves.

I don't think I would worry about Alex cheating at a large event for a while, mostly because its really hard to take advantage of situations where multiple people are watching you, waiting for you to cheat.

Also -


I don't know why but I always had a bad impression about the French L4 that was there in DC. I went to a couple GP he HJ'd and I always felt like he was an idiot...

I can say quite emphatically that there isn't anyone in the program at the L4+ level who deserves to be called an idiot. I think it's kind of sad when a Head Judge from another language gets a bad rap because (frequently American) players think there is a language barrier that doesn't actually exist. L4+'s are senior judges in the program who have repeatedly demonstrated competence and skill at not only rules knowledge, but community involvement and player interaction. Head Judge rulings at the GP level are RARELY reversed after the event, because they just don't make mistakes that often when they have teams of judges to confer with.

Also, most of them have Toby or Eli on their phones to Txt discussions about policy or rules with :P

[Tammit67]

I can say quite emphatically that there isn't anyone in the program at the L4+ level who deserves to be called an idiot. I think it's kind of sad when a Head Judge from another language gets a bad rap because (frequently American) players think there is a language barrier that doesn't actually exist. L4+'s are senior judges in the program who have repeatedly demonstrated competence and skill at not only rules knowledge, but community involvement and player interaction. Head Judge rulings at the GP level are RARELY reversed after the event, because they just don't make mistakes that often when they have teams of judges to confer with.

Also, most of them have Toby or Eli on their phones to Txt discussions about policy or rules with :P

Yeah that guy is quite good

[Russian Alara]

Here is my view ( note I am friends with Alex and Drew) : Even though Alex never admitted his guilt publicly , I can confirm in numerous facebook conversations. that he has reformed. He realizes his error and has even instituted a report cheating list in the Winchester Magic group on facebook ( where he plainly states that cheating is not worth it)

About Drew, disliking Alex , a man has his right to opinion.



But I can confirm, Alex is well aware that the whole community is watching him closely and will likely never repeat what he did.

-Onar

[Lord Seth]

I was witness to a match between Alex and an L4 judge at GPDC and asked him (the L4) after the match and out of earshot of Alex about whether or not he was actively looking for cheating on Alex's part. To my surprise, he said he wasn't concerned with it in slightest. I'm fairly certain that there's a general opinion in the higher echelons of the judge program that Alex has reformed.
Or maybe they just figure he's not enough of an idiot to go back to cheating immediately after the ban has dropped and he'll thus be under the most scrutiny.

[ubernostrum]

I was witness to a match between Alex and an L4 judge at GPDC and asked him (the L4) after the match and out of earshot of Alex about whether or not he was actively looking for cheating on Alex's part. To my surprise, he said he wasn't concerned with it in slightest. I'm fairly certain that there's a general opinion in the higher echelons of the judge program that Alex has reformed.

Or... we take the view that running a full-blown cheating investigation on every play a person makes after returning from suspension isn't productive and makes the tournament run long.

Players who serve out their suspensions can return to tournament play afterward. Even players who've been suspended multiple times. They don't get subjected to hit squads of judges watching their every move; they get treated the same as any other player, subject to the same enforcement as any other player, investigated the same as any other player when there's reason to suspect something.

[Kayradis]

I can say quite emphatically that there isn't anyone in the program at the L4+ level who deserves to be called an idiot. I think it's kind of sad when a Head Judge from another language gets a bad rap because (frequently American) players think there is a language barrier that doesn't actually exist. L4+'s are senior judges in the program who have repeatedly demonstrated competence and skill at not only rules knowledge, but community involvement and player interaction. Head Judge rulings at the GP level are RARELY reversed after the event, because they just don't make mistakes that often when they have teams of judges to confer with.


Sorry for the late answer on that one.
Language barrier is not the factor guiding my opinion. Im fully french/english bilingual.
This is purely my own feeling and the impression he gave me in the multiple event I participated where he was the head judge.
I never said he WAS an idiot. I felt like he was. Feeling and facts are 2 different concept.
Im glad I can clarify that

[Julian23]

Sorry for the late answer on that one.
Language barrier is not the factor guiding my opinion. Im fully french/english bilingual.
This is purely my own feeling and the impression he gave me in the multiple event I participated where he was the head judge.
I never said he WAS an idiot. I felt like he was. Feeling and facts are 2 different concept.
Im glad I can clarify that

To be fair, "idiot" is always a truely subjective and an expression of one's own opinion. Nobody can objectively be classified as such, given that practically nobody uses "idiot" by its original Greek meaning anyways (you'd be surprised by what it actually means.)

By that I mean it's unfair to call somebody an idiot and then playing the "just my opinion"-card without telling us what made him look like an idiot to you.

[Kayradis]

That is a valid point.
I should have voiced my opinion in a different manner.
Just the way he was behaving in the events he HJ where I was present and the way he was looking down on players.

It's mostly a gut feeling. I'd be please to be proven wrong as a matter of fact

[nedleeds]

Look at it this way. There are basically two options, either let him play or ban him forever.

If he continues to play:

Any player who knows his history is at a disadvantage even if he doesn't cheat.
He may cheat again, and still has all the learned skills required to do so.
There is controversey around any results he puts up that damage the integrity of the game and the tournament series he puts said results up at. Example: this thread


If he gets banned forever:

Some people complain that this is unjust.
There is one less notable professional player.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't feel like tournament Magic is so fledgling that it needs to hang onto every notable player it can get its hands on. It's not as if he was missed while he was gone.

I stated it earlier, but unbanning him only benefits one person. Him. Keeping him banned for life is clearly the better choice. Really what is he notable for? For savagely cheating (hundreds of) of people out of their entry fee to $30-40 competitive REL tourney. There is no compelling reason to ever unban him, actually a lifetime ban might let him actually get on with his life and perhaps see the inside of a gym.

[Scott]

Here is my view ( note I am friends with Alex and Drew) : Even though Alex never admitted his guilt publicly , I can confirm in numerous facebook conversations. that he has reformed. He realizes his error and has even instituted a report cheating list in the Winchester Magic group on facebook ( where he plainly states that cheating is not worth it)

About Drew, disliking Alex , a man has his right to opinion.



But I can confirm, Alex is well aware that the whole community is watching him closely and will likely never repeat what he did.

-Onar

Does he now believe that cheating is not worth it because it's morally reprehensible, regardless of discovery or not, or because the possible repercussions outweigh the gains?

[Occam]

Does he now believe that cheating is not worth it because it's morally reprehensible, regardless of discovery or not, or because the possible repercussions outweigh the gains?

1) Does it matter? The system put in place has either reformed someone who previously flouted its rules or acted as a sufficient deterrent.

2) Regardless of what the answer is, would you (or anyone else here, for that matter), buy into it?

The punishment has been served, he's got every right to participate again. Believing that the punishment wasn't severe enough is a critique of the system/rules, not of the people governed by it/them.

[PirateKing]

Does he now believe that cheating is not worth it because it's morally reprehensible, regardless of discovery or not, or because the possible repercussions outweigh the gains?

If you're honest with yourself, you'd see the two are the same thing.

[Russian Alara]

I stated it earlier, but unbanning him only benefits one person. Him. Keeping him banned for life is clearly the better choice. Really what is he notable for? For savagely cheating (hundreds of) of people out of their entry fee to $30-40 competitive REL tourney. There is no compelling reason to ever unban him, actually a lifetime ban might let him actually get on with his life and perhaps see the inside of a gym.


How is his case different from Jared Boettcher's then who got DQ and then appealed? Clearly unbanning Alex did not benefit just him. It benefited the community ( in the way that it showed we can forgive and people could possibly change.


I am not saying what Alex did is something to role model after , but just the fact that we can forgive shows the strength and exceptional good faith of the MTG community ( Not just Legacy).


My view is that the public shame and scrutiny experienced by both Alex and Jared have forced to reform their views, but maybe I am just optimistic player.


-Onar

[nedleeds]

Clearly unbanning Alex did not benefit just him. It benefited the community ( in the way that it showed we can forgive and people could possibly change.



WTF are you talking about? It's not restoring the right to vote or own property. The DCIs mission isn't to forgive and rehabilitate pieces of cheating shit and show us how they can change.

[Russian Alara]

WTF are you talking about? It's not restoring the right to vote or own property. The DCIs mission isn't to forgive and rehabilitate pieces of cheating shit and show us how they can change.

Not trying to to start a war but the way you state the DCI's mission , you portray it as a Inquisition institution. Thats not the way its supposed to function . The DCI is supposed to uphold the law but it also is supposed to accept rehabilitation .



I understand you may have your own personal history but do not let it cloud your judgement. Magic the Gathering is a game not a prison structure. As I stated before Public opinion and scrutiny is often more powerful and deterrent than any official punishment.

- Onar

[Scott]

1) Does it matter? The system put in place has either reformed someone who previously flouted its rules or acted as a sufficient deterrent.

2) Regardless of what the answer is, would you (or anyone else here, for that matter), buy into it?

The punishment has been served, he's got every right to participate again. Believing that the punishment wasn't severe enough is a critique of the system/rules, not of the people governed by it/them.

You are falsely reading an implication that Bertoncini doesn't have the right to participate from my question of clarification. My clarification is, indeed, directly related to system/rules. And it matters very much for that. When a convict is interviewed to determine the length of punishment and possibility of parole, one of the things that's looked into is remorse. Does the individual believe that what he/she did is wrong? Is he/she simply sorry that he/she got caught? Will he/she be a positive reintroduction to the community?

And yes, I would definitely buy into it. If Bertoncini was on record saying that he knows what he did went way past craftiness, and he can't believe how scummily he previously behaved, and he's serious about maintaining the integrity of the game and not insulting those who he's cheated, there would be less skepticism. Signs that point in different directions sometimes mean the person's mindset is the same and, as you put it, there isn't sufficient deterrent.


If you're honest with yourself, you'd see the two are the same thing.

I'm being quite honest, and I disagree wholeheartedly.

[Occam]

You are falsely reading an implication that Bertoncini doesn't have the right to participate from my question of clarification. My clarification is, indeed, directly related to system/rules. And it matters very much for that. When a convict is interviewed to determine the length of punishment and possibility of parole, one of the things that's looked into is remorse. Does the individual believe that what he/she did is wrong? Is he/she simply sorry that he/she got caught? Will he/she be a positive reintroduction to the community?




And you are falsely connecting both portions of my posts together. The two questions were directed at you, the rest is simply a generic statement. It is fairly obvious that very few people, least of all randoms on an internet site, can objectively decide if someone has either reformed or is only keeping in line for fear of censure. You could subjectively take a stand on that, to which the answer would simply be that it is your opinion. The role of a justice system is primarily to reform, while acting as a deterrent. To me, as long as he falls in line after serving a punishment, whose severity or lack thereof is out of his control, he has to be regarded as a tabula rasa.

Saying all that is well and good, but ignores the fact that 1) he isn't answering to you, at least not directly, 2) this isn't parole -- he's served the entire sentence, 3) you asking if he will be a positive reintroduction is a pre-emptive construction of a strawman -- you don't know the answer to that outside of a potentially flimsy interpretation of a few quotes.

[barcode]

My only interaction with Alex was at GP Toronto in one of the later rounds of day 2. Alex and his opponent were deck checked (heh) and Alex was yapping his mouth off very loudly while I was trying to win a very close match against my opponent to keep my top 16 hopes alive. Luckily Alex and his opponent got their decks back and started to play and they quieted down so I could focus on my own match. One of my buddies was in his draft 1 pod and beat him, which I'm pleased about.

Let the dude play until he's found to have cheated again.

[baghdadbob]

Can you sick bastards stop persecuting this poor white child? Don't you think that white people have it bad enough? He clearly did what he had to do, in order to succeed in a system built to make him fail. Poor Bertoncini...

[Ellomdian]

WTF are you talking about? It's not restoring the right to vote or own property. The DCIs mission isn't to forgive and rehabilitate pieces of cheating shit and show us how they can change.

As a long-standing member of the DCI (through numerous guidance and policy changes) I can say that the DCI's mission, at least as far as Judges are concerned, is as follows: "The DCI Judge Certification Program is designed to ensure consistency in all rulings and penalties at sanctioned tournaments, and to identify and recognize experienced and knowledgeable judges." It's unfortunate that this situation has overshadowed the 'consistency' part of that statement, because Alex has (IMO) been treated similarly to other individuals who have been determined to have exhibited ban-worthy behavior.

The side of the DCI that manages sanctions is not a Parole board, they do not re-open cases or recommend additional observation when someone is reinstated. The goal of the system is the arbitrary nature of the process - rehabilitation is only a factor if a person commits another offense, and the case history is dealt with as a whole. We do not 'pre-cog' events, there isn't centrally-guided increased focus, and if he is found to be cheating again, I hope the DQ writeup has no mention of prior behavior because that shouldn't matter in the incident - only at the investigation level.

[Kap'n Cook]

Taken from a recent shardless bug tournament report before it is buried by tons of posts:

"R9 vs esperdeathblade. One of Shardless Bug's best matchups. My opponent was Alex Bertoncini. He was very nice and pleasant to play against (and also was when I played near him in earlier rounds). I was anxious to win to try to top 8 but even more so because of an earlier round situation vs my friend at x-1. During that round, after drawing their opening hands, my friend asked how many cards Alex was holding. He responded 7. My friend asked him to count twice and 7 was the answer. Then my friend asked him to lay them flat and found 8 cards. The judges ruled it a warning and a forced mulligan. "

[Megadeus]

Link for reference?

[Kap'n Cook]

Link for reference?

I am just the messenger but figured I would allow the community to dive in. Here is the report I took it from:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control&p=796995&viewfull=1#post796995

[Lord Seth]

Taken from a recent shardless bug tournament report before it is buried by tons of posts:

"R9 vs esperdeathblade. One of Shardless Bug's best matchups. My opponent was Alex Bertoncini. He was very nice and pleasant to play against (and also was when I played near him in earlier rounds). I was anxious to win to try to top 8 but even more so because of an earlier round situation vs my friend at x-1. During that round, after drawing their opening hands, my friend asked how many cards Alex was holding. He responded 7. My friend asked him to count twice and 7 was the answer. Then my friend asked him to lay them flat and found 8 cards. The judges ruled it a warning and a forced mulligan. "
Only a warning? That seems odd--if what transpired occurred as described, one would expect that the act of lying about the number of cards in your hand would at least result in a game loss.

[uncletiggy]

So how many strikes is this kid going to get before the dci bans him or the community kneecaps him? Someone should start an opinion poll on which comes first. Id enter any game vs him with a very poor attitude and high suspicions of every play he makes. Hes bad for the game no one should have to feel that uncomfortable and that forced to check every play thier oponent makes cheating with a smile and a pleasent attitude is still cheating and rather crafty.

[HammafistRoob]

Drawing extra cards is a game loss, lie or no lie. This story seems a little shady in my opinion, if I caught someone drawing an 8 card opener and a judge came and ruled it a warning I would instantly appeal to the Head Judge.

[ubernostrum]

Drawing extra cards is a game loss, lie or no lie. This story seems a little shady in my opinion, if I caught someone drawing an 8 card opener and a judge came and ruled it a warning I would instantly appeal to the Head Judge.

And... the Head Judge would uphold, because the Warning is correct.

Drawing too many cards on the opening hand, or on a mulligan, is Game Play Error — Improper Drawing at Start of Game, section 2.4 of the IPG. Penalty is a Warning, plus remove two cards (the extra, plus one) at random from the hand. If the game has not yet begun, they're shuffled away and continue with any desired mulligans. If the game has begun, put them on top of the library in random order.

The dividing line from Improper Draw at Start of Game to Drawing Extra Cards (which does carry a base penalty of a Game Loss) is if the game has begun and the player who has too many cards has taken a visible, legal game action.

[Lejay]

He lied twice which means intentionnal cheating. He is a known cheater caught cheating again. Ban life not warning.

[marax]

He lied twice which means intentionnal cheating. He is a known cheater caught cheating again. Ban life not warning.

Dont be so harsh Lejay. Obv. the poor guy simply can not solve problems with numbers up to 10 yet. Maybe he needs to retake Elementary school Math class 1 and 2 again :rolleyes:
1, 2, many, many many!

[TsumiBand]

Dont be so harsh Lejay. Obv. the poor guy simply can not solve problems with numbers up to 10 yet. Maybe he needs to retake Elementary school Math class 1 and 2 again :rolleyes:
1, 2, many, many many!


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XccUMOQ978

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Kayradis]

Do we really need to bring that issue upstairs again?
I feel like it's time to stir the twitter-verse again.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

He lied twice which means intentionnal cheating. He is a known cheater caught cheating again. Ban life not warning.

[Megadeus]

I am just the messenger but figured I would allow the community to dive in. Here is the report I took it from:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control&p=796995&viewfull=1#post796995

Oh I know that guy. I guess I'll have to ask him about it if I see him wednesday.

But to be fair, all we have are accounts from players. Not actual proof to go around crucifying Alex.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh I know that guy. I guess I'll have to ask him about it if I see him wednesday.

But to be fair, all we have are accounts from players. Not actual proof to go around crucifying Alex.

Witness testimony is proof.

[Megadeus]

Witness testimony is proof.

I'm not saying Justin is lying or anything. I don't think he holds any grudges against Alex. I'm just saying that this probably wouldn't help much in a case where the DCI were to investigate.

[Lord Seth]

Witness testimony is proof.
Which this wasn't. This was someone saying what a friend told them; unless I'm misunderstanding definitions, that's hearsay. In other words, this isn't one person's testimony, but one person's recollection of another person's unconfirmed testimony.

[L0cke]

Which this wasn't. This was someone saying what a friend told them; unless I'm misunderstanding definitions, that's hearsay. In other words, this isn't one person's testimony, but one person's recollection of another person's unconfirmed testimony.

Edit, reread the thing, and I was wrong.

[ahg113]

Witness testimony is proof.

Witness testimony is evidence. Proof is a much more nebulous construct touching on truth, etc. etc.

Got stuck in jury duty, hated life, hate one random juror which caused us to be a hung-jury.

[Tea]

This guy should be banned. I'm astonished how much support he gets. He seems to be very charismatic,... reminds me of a certain politician in Germany, lol.

[DragoFireheart]

People like Bertoncini is why I don't play high-level competitive magic (AKA, anything involving serious money).

[YamiJoey]

People like Bertoncini is why I don't play high-level competitive magic (AKA, anything involving serious money).

Can someone pull some numbers up for this person? We're at less than 0.001% of people cheating here.

EDIT: Not that he has even cheated recently as far as the DCI is concerned.

[DragoFireheart]

Can someone pull some numbers up for this person? We're at less than 0.001% of people cheating here.

EDIT: Not that he has even cheated recently as far as the DCI is concerned.

0.001% known cheaters.

[Kayradis]

On Reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1zj3eg/cheating_or_simple_game_play_error/

[Koby]

He got a warning. Warnings are tracked. If this was an isolated event, then it is what it is. If the pattern continues, then it's a clear sign of continued cheating. Remember to always call a judge when something wrong happens in the game.

[nedleeds]

Can someone pull some numbers up for this person? We're at less than 0.001% of people cheating here.

Can someone pull a bucket of sand for this person to stick his head in? You are hopelessly naive if you think .001% of the people attending SCGs and like are cheating. It's far, far higher than that.

[Parcher]

He got a warning. Warnings are tracked. If this was an isolated event, then it is what it is. If the pattern continues, then it's a clear sign of continued cheating. Remember to always call a judge when something wrong happens in the game.

Here's my issue with this. The jusdges are not supposed to take a player's history into account when making a ruling. That is to say; An infraction by Dave Price(a player with a long history of crusading against cheaters), would be acted upon the same as if the same exact infraction was performed by Mike Long('nuff said). I dsagree with this policy, but that's how it is.

At the same time, judges keep insisting that all of these infractions are recorded. Why? So you can use them to judge a person on what they've done before? Isn't it essentially the same thing?

Now I understand that the judges don't have immediate access to these histories during tournaments, but that really doesn't help one way or the other. Either we have A)The judges do have access to the player's history of infractions, and can act accordingly. Which I'm sure some judge will have reams of reasons why that isn't feasible. Or B) What we have now, which makes no sense from a value player's perspective. That these infractions are recorded, and action is taken place months later after a super-special-sekret-fact-finding task force has examined all of the evidence, and said player has continued to cheat hundreds of players out of thousands of dollars.

Let the judges, the only ones that can DQ, and not ban, do so. Give them the tools, and the authority to make accurate assessments based on not only the interviews, and game conditions, but also on how often this behavior has been repeated.

[TsumiBand]

The HJ commented on the Reddit thread. It's a good read.

He treated the guy as if he was someone who had 'done his time', as it were. Isn't that the way shit is supposed to work within disciplinary systems? Someone violates the rules; they suffer the consequences; Judge Harry T. Stone declares "$50 and time served" and swings his gavel, forged from the heart of a dying star; the object leaves the stack and goes to the graveyard, because it has resolved.

I'm not saying forget what happened, because honestly I thought it was a major league fishdick move to just openly Explores like that. Not everyone agrees with the ruling, fine; let that be the single warning shot. Besides, read the tourney report, he punted that match. vOv

Mike Long was a cheater. Mike Long also innovated and changed the game for a lot of people. Alex B maybe hasn't given as much to the game as Mike Long, but it's not a dick-measuring contest; I'm just saying, give a player his due without harping on their fuckups. He didn't kill babies for Magic cards, for Christ's sake.

[infiniteJ]

I didn't intend to start another slam bertoncini crusade. I didn't witness the event but it was a good reliable friend whom it happened to. I know little of the judging process but respect the judges there and they were not naive. There were two judges watching my last round match if I recall correctly.

If anything, the broader issue of cheating in tournaments should be raised. I suspect the actual number of cheats, small and large, that take place in a typical 9 round event is probably shockingly high (as needleds and others suggest). As I responded in the shardless thread, this same exact scenario happened to another friend at gp Atlanta legacy a while back and the alleged culprit is a decently big name w a shady history as well. I shouldn't have named Alex's name in my post, although it would have easily been figured out, and so I won't name the player who allegedly did the same thing back then. I would guess that there are discussions going on at scg and wotc hopefully about the broader issues.

[DragoFireheart]

Can someone pull a bucket of sand for this person to stick his head in? You are hopelessly naive if you think .001% of the people attending SCGs and like are cheating. It's far, far higher than that.

It's much easier to just insult people and disregard that cheating creates a toxic environment that no one wants to participate in.

[lordofthepit]

Disgusting.

Once someone has cheated, he deserves no benefit of the doubt. In fact, I don't even know why he's still allowed to play.

[HammafistRoob]

And... the Head Judge would uphold, because the Warning is correct.

Drawing too many cards on the opening hand, or on a mulligan, is Game Play Error — Improper Drawing at Start of Game, section 2.4 of the IPG. Penalty is a Warning, plus remove two cards (the extra, plus one) at random from the hand. If the game has not yet begun, they're shuffled away and continue with any desired mulligans. If the game has begun, put them on top of the library in random order.

The dividing line from Improper Draw at Start of Game to Drawing Extra Cards (which does carry a base penalty of a Game Loss) is if the game has begun and the player who has too many cards has taken a visible, legal game action.

That makes absolutely zero sense. So basically what you're saying is if I notice somebody has 8 cards in their opener, I should let the game proceed for ~2 turns and then call a judge for extra cards? I like free game wins.

[thecrav]

Disgusting.

Once someone has cheated, he deserves no benefit of the doubt. In fact, I don't even know why he's still allowed to play.

Do you use this same logic for all wrong doings in life?

[ubernostrum]

That makes absolutely zero sense. So basically what you're saying is if I notice somebody has 8 cards in their opener, I should let the game proceed for ~2 turns and then call a judge for extra cards? I like free game wins.

That would get you disqualified for cheating.

(and yes, we do now how to pick up on signs that that stuff is happening)

[Michael Keller]

I honestly don't care what happens to this person. All I know is that if I ever play against him - or anyone, for that matter - who cheats against me, I'll call a judge.

It's really that simple.

[HammafistRoob]

That would get you disqualified for cheating.

(and yes, we do now how to pick up on signs that that stuff is happening)

I seriously doubt this. I'm sorry but i don't even understand how that is possibly cheating, or even my fault that there is a loophole in the rules.

[Megadeus]

That would get you disqualified for cheating.

(and yes, we do now how to pick up on signs that that stuff is happening)

So if I realize my opponent has 8 cards, but don't call it until after say, turn 2, technically I am the cheater?

[lordofthepit]

Do you use this same logic for all wrong doings in life?

I give people the benefit of the doubt until they've established themselves as a cheater (or whatever other title fits the crime). After that, all bets are off.

Second chances almost always mean a second chance to cheat, burgle, murder, etc. Nothing in his behavior suggests he's reformed.

[cherub_daemon]

He got a warning. Warnings are tracked. If this was an isolated event, then it is what it is. If the pattern continues, then it's a clear sign of continued cheating. Remember to always call a judge when something wrong happens in the game.

On this point, and that of the life ban vs. 2-year ban, it seems like it would make sense to ask previously banned players to rattle off the details of their previous ban to every player they're matched with at the beginning of the round. Something like:

"My name is X, I was banned for 2 years after I cheated. I was known to use the following techniques: A, B, C. Please report everything unusual to the judge."

Reasoning being that while serious players will know who known cheaters are from their name (and report any "sloppy" play), but other players may not. For example, I know Alex's name, but essentially no others. But if you forced them to make a reasonably memorable speech, you would go a lot farther in making sure that every weird thing got reported. If they're caught not making the speech, instant DQ. Depending on the ban, the speech might be a life thing or for some amount of time after the ban.

You could also institute just some version of the speech as a softer version of a ban. It might even be better than a ban; I'd bet that people will be more aware of potential cheating in other rounds if they heard this once.

[Einherjer]

....If they're caught not making the speech, instant DQ....

You had me there, lol.

I am too an advocate of life-time-bans AS LONG AS all highest-Level-judges agree on the fact that the person did in fact cheat. Like the good old "Two Explores" or something. If it is evident that he was cheating intentionally I am all in for super tough punishments. But not if someone draws 8 cards at the beginning - you have to treat him like anybody else. While I havn't drawn 8 cards yet, I have screwed up a thing here or there - due to loss of concentration or speed - you all know this - would you like to play in a tournament where you could be banned for life for screwing up a little bit like accidentally looking at extra cards or something of this kind? No, nobody would. But there should be tougher punishments for people who do this repeatedly, simply where a pattern is recognizeable....

Greetings

[Alfy]

So if I realize my opponent has 8 cards, but don't call it until after say, turn 2, technically I am the cheater?

Yep. Maintaining the game state is the responsibility of both players, if you notice it, you should report it ASAP.

[TraxDaMax]

To give a better example of the hatred I posses for these type if losers, I have a story.
When I was in second grade, I lived in San Diego. Our elementary school had a yearly running event, that sponsored D.A.R.E. back in the day. The kid who got most laps done would always get a free ticket to Disneyland. When you're 7 years old, that is basicly winning a jackpot. Thing was though, this guy Tyler from my class had won it the previous year. Now I knew the guy, and I knew I could run farther, harder, faster, whatever then him. I also was suspicious that he could actually run faster then 6th graders. So my goal that year was to keep up with him.
But having such a large group of people on a runningtrack made it hard and I lost him. While I was running I tried to spot him so I could atleast try and keep up. But after a few rounds I finally found him. He had just had a mom place a stamp on his card (which every kid had to keep track of laps done), and he was slipping back in line at another mother to get another stamp. I told my teacher and she told me not tobe such a bad sport. So I got no support with my Sherlock Holmes skills. The guy won the event again.
The day after he came over and laughed at me in my face so O took a basketball and threw it in his face. I accepted my detention after I had broke his nose and moved on.

I felt no regrets, and if I catch someone doing it today, I'll do the same thing.


Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[sdematt]

Do you use this same logic for all wrong doings in life?

Have you SEEN the American prison system? OF COURSE this is how it works, Sam :wink:

-Matt

[Phelix]

I accepted my detention after I had broke his nose and moved on.

I felt no regrets





Have you SEEN the American prison system? OF COURSE this is how it works, Sam

-Matt

THAT, my friend, is how it Works, no?

[TraxDaMax]

Worked for me atleast.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[TraxDaMax]

Guy was being a jerk about it by the way.. like kept irritating me untill I couldn't resist shutting him up myself.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[HammafistRoob]

The day after he came over and laughed at me in my face so O took a basketball and threw it in his face. I accepted my detention after I had broke his nose and moved on.

I felt no regrets, and if I catch someone doing it today, I'll do the same thing.

So do you carry a basketball around at all times? Or just at major events?

[TraxDaMax]

I don't play basketball anymore. :)

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[Phoenix Ignition]

Here's the thing about people saying "I'll just have a judge watch him next time I play, that's all that needs to happen." That means that every single player at the event needs to know the names of the cheaters to be able to do this.

Bertoncheaty has a nice, memorable name, so at any SCG or GP I play at I'll make sure me or my friends all know to call a judge and scrutinize everything. But for any player who doesn't, you can't honestly blame them for not knowing to have the dude physically lay his cards out on the table and find the 8th one. It's fairly easy to fan your cards out and hide 1 behind another, making it look like you only have 7 when you really have 8.

Like Parcher said, if warnings are going on your record, let judges use that record for any incidents. Don't let these cheaters win the tournaments, get the prize money, and then months later be suspended for a year. The easiest thing to do is ban him for life from in person tournaments, and let him play MTGO if he wants to do tournaments. Can't cheat online, not even with stalling tactics. At this point it's still beneficial for him to cheat, since he can just wipe his tears with his winnings and judges hands are tied from using anything stronger than warnings, even with prior knowledge of his name.

I'm sure he knows which warnings he's done before and will just cheat in a different way until he's finally cut from the community entirely. Extra lands, extra cards, maybe messing with life totals. It's not like he's dumb, he can figure out what to abuse next and keep winning.

[Avatar of Bro]

Have you SEEN the American prison system? OF COURSE this is how it works, Sam :wink:

-Matt

^ This exactly :)

[ESG]

Considering that many of Bertoncini's past cheats involved dexterity, it seems unlikely that he could accidentally draw an extra card without realizing it. And, of course, having been asked how many cards were in his hand, it's pretty easy to count.

Having read the Reddit thread and heard from the judge in question that infractions aren't carried on past a given tournament, I don't feel that a past record of infractions is much of a tool for judges to detect cheating.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1zj3eg/cheating_or_simple_game_play_error/

[lordofthepit]

To give a better example of the hatred I posses for these type if losers, I have a story.
When I was in second grade, I lived in San Diego. Our elementary school had a yearly running event, that sponsored D.A.R.E. back in the day. The kid who got most laps done would always get a free ticket to Disneyland. When you're 7 years old, that is basicly winning a jackpot. Thing was though, this guy Tyler from my class had won it the previous year. Now I knew the guy, and I knew I could run farther, harder, faster, whatever then him. I also was suspicious that he could actually run faster then 6th graders. So my goal that year was to keep up with him.
But having such a large group of people on a runningtrack made it hard and I lost him. While I was running I tried to spot him so I could atleast try and keep up. But after a few rounds I finally found him. He had just had a mom place a stamp on his card (which every kid had to keep track of laps done), and he was slipping back in line at another mother to get another stamp. I told my teacher and she told me not tobe such a bad sport. So I got no support with my Sherlock Holmes skills. The guy won the event again.
The day after he came over and laughed at me in my face so O took a basketball and threw it in his face. I accepted my detention after I had broke his nose and moved on.

I felt no regrets, and if I catch someone doing it today, I'll do the same thing.


Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

Nice

[Darkenslight]

So if I realize my opponent has 8 cards, but don't call it until after say, turn 2, technically I am the cheater?

YES. Because you are intentionally ignoring an infractionf of the Tournament Rules in order to gain an advantage. From Section 4.8 of the IPG:


Definition
A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a tournament official, or notices an offense committed in his or her (or a teammate's) match and does not call attention to it.
Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating:
• The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
• The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.

Emphasis mine.

[kc.hogan]

Taken from a recent shardless bug tournament report before it is buried by tons of posts:

"R9 vs esperdeathblade. One of Shardless Bug's best matchups. My opponent was Alex Bertoncini. He was very nice and pleasant to play against (and also was when I played near him in earlier rounds). I was anxious to win to try to top 8 but even more so because of an earlier round situation vs my friend at x-1. During that round, after drawing their opening hands, my friend asked how many cards Alex was holding. He responded 7. My friend asked him to count twice and 7 was the answer. Then my friend asked him to lay them flat and found 8 cards. The judges ruled it a warning and a forced mulligan. "

The friend in question responded to the reddit thread here. (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1zj3eg/cheating_or_simple_game_play_error/cfuc4qu)

I probably should take CJs hind site advice and not post, but I think this will clear it up a bit.
So I was standing behind my friend at the time when this happened.

Alex: "I'll keep" Friend: "How many cards do you have in hand?" Alex: "7"

He said it immediately without fanning through. Like CJ said, that's the default answer.

Friend then leans in to look closer and says "7?" I can't remember if Alex nodded or said yes here. Regardless, he didn't actually count his hand twice but agreed with 7 twice.

Friend: "Can you lay them out for me? I can't see. Oh look at that, 8. Judge!"

I play a lot of magic and I know that things like this can happen. (I've never had it happen to me but I mean, sleeves do stick.) Even standing right there I was unsure of it being an accident or not. If it wasn't Alex I don't think I'd consider it being anything other than an accident. It's hard not to consider his past when you see something like that happen.


Alex B. has cheated before, but he's already been punished for that. The DCI doesn't assign penalties for being a bad person, only for violating rules. His penalties shouldn't get automatically upgraded just because of his history; otherwise, why would they bother taking him off suspension?

[Quasim0ff]

The friend in question responded to the reddit thread here. (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1zj3eg/cheating_or_simple_game_play_error/cfuc4qu)


Alex B. has cheated before, but he's already been punished for that. The DCI doesn't assign penalties for being a bad person, only for violating rules. His penalties shouldn't get automatically upgraded just because of his history; otherwise, why would they bother taking him off suspension?
Well, I think that's just rubbish. Someone being banned/disallowed to participate in competative (or any event involving PWP honestly), who keeps on trying to cheat should be disallowed if his acts continue to involve cheating.

[kc.hogan]

Well, I think that's just rubbish. Someone being banned/disallowed to participate in competative (or any event involving PWP honestly), who keeps on trying to cheat should be disallowed if his acts continue to involve cheating.

Of course someone who cheats in an event should get disqualified. It's even likely that they'll receive a suspension, but all of that is true regardless of a player's history.

[Quasim0ff]

Of course someone who cheats in an event should get disqualified. It's even likely that they'll receive a suspension, but all of that is true regardless of a player's history.
You said that, due to Alex already being punished one time for his crime, it shouldn't be taken into account again. I disagree wholeheartedly.

[lordofthepit]

You said that, due to Alex already being punished one time for his crime, it shouldn't be taken into account again. I disagree wholeheartedly.

kc.hogan is a judge, so he's speaking objectively from that perspective.

I do agree though that cheaters should be expunged from the community. Cheating is the worst crime you can commit in the context of this game, and it should merit the ultimate punishment of lifetime banning.

[Barook]

There should be a probation for such heavy cases of cheating like in Bertoncini's case - if they're catched cheating again, life-time ban. End of story. They're toxic for the game and they deserve neither pity nor mercy.

It's a joke that he can still go around and cheat like nothing's happened. That's just about as dumb as the case where a pedophile rapist was sent to kindergarden for community service. If this recent accident proofs anything, then that he's going to do it again.

And what's up with that pansy-ass punishments? If you draw too many cards, game loss, end of story. As long as the potential gain outweights the potential downside, cheating is going to be rampant in Magic as long as money is on the line.

[Quasim0ff]

There should be a probation for such heavy cases of cheating like in Bertoncini's case - if they're catched cheating again, life-time ban. End of story. They're toxic for the game and they deserve neither pity nor mercy.

It's a joke that he can still go around and cheat like nothing's happened. That's just about as dumb as the case where a pedophile rapist was sent to kindergarden for community service. If this recent accident proofs anything, then that he's going to do it again.

And what's up with that pansy-ass punishments? If you draw too many cards, game loss, end of story. As long as the potential gain outweights the potential downside, cheating is going to be rampant in Magic as long as money is on the line.

If you draw too many cards INGAME, it's a gameloss.

[Barook]

If you draw too many cards INGAME, it's a gameloss.
Sure, but why isn't it a gameloss at the beginning of the game? People should be expected to be able to count to 7.

[HSCK]

Sure, but why isn't it a gameloss at the beginning of the game? People should be expected to be able to count to 7.

Yeah, because miscounting is cheating too right?

I think we should let players judge each other for a round at Comp REL and see how many are not DQ'ed by each other for any possible reason.

There's a reason there are judges and players baying at the moon for blood here is an an excellent example of why.

[Barook]

Yeah, because miscounting is cheating too right?
If you draw too many cards, it is. It's hard to believe that people can mesmorize hundreds, if not thousands of cards, but aren't able to do grade school maths.

The difference between accidental mistakes and intentional cheating is a balancing act.

It's just inconsistent to judge the same thing in two different ways. Actually, it encourages cheating and being a total scumbag in one than more way - for one, the punishment is less harsh, but what if I notice that my opponent has one card too many and wait until R2 to go "Wait, how many cards do you actually have? JUDGE!" to give him a game loss this way? There's no way to proof that you noticed it before.

[ubernostrum]

If you draw too many cards, it is. It's hard to believe that people can mesmorize hundreds, if not thousands of cards, but aren't able to do grade school maths.

You know how I know you've never counted lists at a large event?

Most people would not believe how many players are really really good at Magic and really really bad at counting to 7, 15, 40 and 60.

[Kayradis]

You know how I know you've never counted lists at a large event?

Most people would not believe how many players are really really good at Magic and really really bad at counting to 7, 15, 40 and 60.

Are you judging this weekend?
What are your estimations on screwed up list this weekend?

[Arrion]

Drawing too many cards at the beginning of the game is not a game loss because that would be an overly harsh penalty for someone who mulligans to 7 accidentally, a very common mistake. That said, there is a big difference between mulling to 7 and drawing 8. That, the (possible) lying about how many cards he had, and the prior history of cheating all would indicate that a harsher penalty is warranted in this case.

[Arsenal]

Rules need to reflect reality. The rules state that prior infractions and disciplinary action won't factor in the judge's decision, but in reality, a person's history of cheating should be taken into account because that's what you do in reality.

[phonics]

To me whatever happened recently is moot because I still think anything less than a lifetime ban for this kind of cheater is too lenient. This isn't like real life where people are rehabilitated (like federal 'rape your ass' prison in America or other programs) and there is a difference between cheating in a game that you choose to participate in compared to real life. The punishment given literally only meant that he couldn't cheat his way to more winnings for a while, essentially no negative consequences at all. He is just going to keep going to try and win as much money as possible until he is banned for life.

[YamiJoey]

He chooses to do it because he wants to. Not being allowed to do what you want is a punishment.

This thread makes my face hurt.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I think everyone should stop to think about what he's getting banned from. This isn't a life sentence in prison sort of thing, it's the inability to play in sanctioned events for a card game. A lifetime ban doesn't stop him from playing EDH with his buddies or buying a booster box to draft with, it prevents him from winning money and prestige at competitive events. How is cheating multiple times and on camera not enough of a reason to ban someone for life for that? If you can't play by the rules when literally thousands of dollars are at stake, how can anyone justify him not getting a lifetime ban?

We're not exiling him to Antarctica or cutting off his hand, the penalty isn't even "stop playing magic altogether," although even if it were that seems fitting.

[Michael Keller]

This is a card game, fellas; people are going to cheat and there's no way of getting around it happening. It can be discouraged with rules enforcement, but we all know that's garbage. It applies to everything that happens in everyday life.

Consider this: Cheating is arguably the worst thing you can do in a game of Magic, right? There's a governing body that dictates and enforces the rules. You get punished for it. The same is true for rapists and murderers who get off easy. And once the punishment is levied and paid, they get out.

And then they do it again. And therein lies the problem. Some people have issues. Deep-rooted problems that you cannot ever wash away because it's a part of the fabric of that person's personality and character. Repeat offenses and an uncanny knack in taking advantage of the weak-minded. These people exist. And they will continue to make a mockery of the game's structured rules enforcement until change occurs.

This is a card game where money is at stake. A lot of money. And to think I'm going to hand my fucking thirty dollars over to some punk kid who "paid his time" is asinine and egregious on every conceivable level of thought.

These people warrant lifetime bans. It will teach them to have integrity elsewhere while they can't play Magic. Period.

[cherub_daemon]

This is a card game where money is at stake. A lot of money. And to think I'm going to hand my fucking thirty dollars over to some punk kid who "paid his time" is asinine and egregious on every conceivable level of thought.

Not to detract from the potential money aspect, but theft of my time is far more annoying to me. If I drive to an event, stay overnight (maybe) and play for a whole day in a smelly room, I expect to at the least get reliable competitive testing out of it even if I lose all day. If I "learn" that Deck X is a bad matchup because some jagoff was palming cards off of a Brainstorm, now I've wasted time learning that, and it will take me more testing time to correct it.

[Arsenal]

Not to detract from the potential money aspect, but theft of my time is far more annoying to me. If I drive to an event, stay overnight (maybe) and play for a whole day in a smelly room, I expect to at the least get reliable competitive testing out of it even if I lose all day. If I "learn" that Deck X is a bad matchup because some jagoff was palming cards off of a Brainstorm, now I've wasted time learning that, and it will take me more testing time to correct it.

I agree with all of this. It's a waste of my time if my opponent draws 4 cards off Brainstorm. Or if my opponent is pre-sideboarded against me Game 1. Or if he's starting the game with 8 cards instead of 7. Or if he's laying additional lands per turn than legally allowed.

[Lemnear]

I maybe should put less time into figuring out the blindsides of the format and rather do some dexterity lessons ... oh, and play more decks with Jace/Dark Confidant for some sneaky extra draws or more palm draws

[DragoFireheart]

This is a card game, fellas; people are going to cheat and there's no way of getting around it happening. It can be discouraged with rules enforcement, but we all know that's garbage. It applies to everything that happens in everyday life.

Consider this: Cheating is arguably the worst thing you can do in a game of Magic, right? There's a governing body that dictates and enforces the rules. You get punished for it. The same is true for rapists and murderers who get off easy. And once the punishment is levied and paid, they get out.

And then they do it again. And therein lies the problem. Some people have issues. Deep-rooted problems that you cannot ever wash away because it's a part of the fabric of that person's personality and character. Repeat offenses and an uncanny knack in taking advantage of the weak-minded. These people exist. And they will continue to make a mockery of the game's structured rules enforcement until change occurs.

This is a card game where money is at stake. A lot of money. And to think I'm going to hand my fucking thirty dollars over to some punk kid who "paid his time" is asinine and egregious on every conceivable level of thought.

These people warrant lifetime bans. It will teach them to have integrity elsewhere while they can't play Magic. Period.

Well said, especially the bold part.

If SCG was serious about maintaining the integrity of their tournaments, they'd have a judge for each pairing.

[Kap'n Cook]

Well said, especially the bold part.

If SCG was serious about maintaining the integrity of their tournaments, they'd have a judge for each pairing.

You would be paying 100+ entry fee then. Although sad, it's probably only a matter of time before someone gets screwed over by him and they decide to beat the living shit out of him like your classic casino back room movie scene.

[Lemnear]

You would be paying 100+ entry fee then. Although sad, it's probably only a matter of time before someone gets screwed over by him and they decide to beat the living shit out of him like your classic casino back room movie scene.

...and then get lifetime banned himself :/

[Parcher]

Consider this: Cheating is arguably the worst thing you can do in a game of Magic, right? There's a governing body that dictates and enforces the rules. You get punished for it. The same is true for rapists and murderers who get off easy. And once the punishment is levied and paid, they get out.


I have a problem with this corollary. I see where you might compare a criminal to a cheater. And where in both cases, you might equate getting caught and punished. And why you might want to allow that person to return with a relatively clean slate after serving the punishment whatever governing body meted out.

My problem is, while a rapist and a cheater both have to be caught, both have to be investigated by the proper autorities, and both have to be sentenced, you don't fucking let a rapist finish his business when he's caught in the act. You drop whatever the fuck you are doing, and stop him. If you don't have the sack, or the authority to do so, you stop whatever you're doing, and find someone who will. You don't pausit, "Hmmm.... well, that could be consensual. I'll wait and see what happens." You stop them. Period. If, in the case of MtG, this requires you to pause someone else's game if it's not you directly being cheated, then everyone should be ok with that. If it requires the tournament to be paused before advancing the next round, due to the judges investigation, possiblye leading to a DQ, then I'm fine with that too. I fear that since MtG is, in fact, being run to make money, that time issues will always be a major factor in judges decisions on immedate action toward improper behavior.

[Tammit67]

If SCG was serious about maintaining the integrity of their tournaments, they'd have a judge for each pairing.

Yeah no...

A better solution would make MTG an inline only sort of deal for higher level events, at least from a rules standpoint

[HammafistRoob]

Wear a ski mask, destroy his life and steal his cards so he can't play.

I wish somebody would do that to this little chooch, I could never do something like that because I have actual morals.

[Tammit67]

Wear a ski mask, destroy his life and steal his cards so he can't play.

I wish somebody would do that to this little chooch, I could never do something like that because I have actual morals.

So then why suggest it? How is wanting it to happen not immoral?

[Michael Keller]

I have a problem with this corollary. I see where you might compare a criminal to a cheater. And where in both cases, you might equate getting caught and punished. And why you might want to allow that person to return with a relatively clean slate after serving the punishment whatever governing body meted out.

My problem is, while a rapist and a cheater both have to be caught, both have to be investigated by the proper autorities, and both have to be sentenced, you don't fucking let a rapist finish his business when he's caught in the act. You drop whatever the fuck you are doing, and stop him. If you don't have the sack, or the authority to do so, you stop whatever you're doing, and find someone who will. You don't pausit, "Hmmm.... well, that could be consensual. I'll wait and see what happens." You stop them. Period. If, in the case of MtG, this requires you to pause someone else's game if it's not you directly being cheated, then everyone should be ok with that. If it requires the tournament to be paused before advancing the next round, due to the judges investigation, possiblye leading to a DQ, then I'm fine with that too. I fear that since MtG is, in fact, being run to make money, that time issues will always be a major factor in judges decisions on immedate action toward improper behavior.

Damon, you just overcomplicated a simple correlation. Both types of people are scumbags and are by nature repeat offenders. You take away the ability to repeat and punish them for good.

[Parcher]

While I've been speaking to generalities regarding the problems surrounding active, and immediate action against cheaters during tournaments, everyone else seems to be on the Bertoncini Bandwagon. Just so people don't keep suggesting that player action will have different results:

During the heyday of Jupiter Games Legacy Series, Eli Kassis, the TO and owner, didn't like Alex. He felt he was a shady player in general, and had a serious problem with a statutory charge Alex caught some time earlier(I don't have any idea about the veracity, or details regarding this. Just Eli's account). To wit, Eli not only allowed people to hit Alex at will at any of his tournaments, he actually rewarded anyone who hit him in the nuts with a pack of whatever the latest set was. He felt is was his was of insuring Alex didn't breed. Keep in mind that this was the tournament system that fed into what is now the SCG Legacy circuit. With a great deal of what have become houshold names in regards to such. And that with the familiar nature of these tournaments, no one had a problem beating on Alex, nor had any fear of reprisal from him, or the TO. We had 6'8 BFS pounding Alex in the balls. We had >100lb. alterist Hannah using his sack as a speed bag while he was curled up on the floor in agony. This was all YEARS before any of the events that were detailed in Levin's expose' were unveiled to the public.

Do you really think any kind of physical threat is going to concern him in any way?


Damon, you just overcomplicated a simple correlation. Both types of people are scumbags and are by nature repeat offenders. You take away the ability to repeat and punish them for good.

Where is the line drawn? That is, the line that perma-bans someone from tournaments?(don't want to get into the rape corollary on this one)

[Technics]

I have a problem with this corollary. I see where you might compare a criminal to a cheater. And where in both cases, you might equate getting caught and punished. And why you might want to allow that person to return with a relatively clean slate after serving the punishment whatever governing body meted out.

My problem is, while a rapist and a cheater both have to be caught, both have to be investigated by the proper autorities, and both have to be sentenced, you don't fucking let a rapist finish his business when he's caught in the act. You drop whatever the fuck you are doing, and stop him. If you don't have the sack, or the authority to do so, you stop whatever you're doing, and find someone who will. You don't pausit, "Hmmm.... well, that could be consensual. I'll wait and see what happens." You stop them. Period. If, in the case of MtG, this requires you to pause someone else's game if it's not you directly being cheated, then everyone should be ok with that. If it requires the tournament to be paused before advancing the next round, due to the judges investigation, possiblye leading to a DQ, then I'm fine with that too. I fear that since MtG is, in fact, being run to make money, that time issues will always be a major factor in judges decisions on immedate action toward improper behavior.

At my very first SCG event, I was 3-0. Round 4 I get paired against a decently nice guy, playing enchantress. As a dredge player, elephant grass, moat, solitary confinement, and such all quickly lock me out of the game, and I lose 0-2. After the match is reported, and we are off to round 5. He sits down for his round 5, and is promptly DQed for being on suspension, and playing under a friend’s DCI number. Apparently his round 3 opponent knew him, and found the name on the slip didn’t match, and the judges took round 4 to investigate, and figure it out.

Of course I ended up getting the shaft, losing the round while judges “investigated”. Of course being my first event I ended the day 5-4 or something, but if I had been more “pro” at the time, getting a loss to a suspended player and missing Top 8 would be infuriating! If the judges are going to continue a tournament while they investigate, there should be some system in place to reverse any damage that results in a DQ (like all players losing getting a win). Etc.

[uncletiggy]

Is it just me or is having your fb profile image a portrait of you as "veteran explorer" a spit in the face to everyone he's ever cheated?

[lordofthepit]

While I've been speaking to generalities regarding the problems surrounding active, and immediate action against cheaters during tournaments, everyone else seems to be on the Bertoncini Bandwagon. Just so people don't keep suggesting that player action will have different results:

During the heyday of Jupiter Games Legacy Series, Eli Kassis, the TO and owner, didn't like Alex. He felt he was a shady player in general, and had a serious problem with a statutory charge Alex caught some time earlier(I don't have any idea about the veracity, or details regarding this. Just Eli's account). To wit, Eli not only allowed people to hit Alex at will at any of his tournaments, he actually rewarded anyone who hit him in the nuts with a pack of whatever the latest set was. He felt is was his was of insuring Alex didn't breed. Keep in mind that this was the tournament system that fed into what is now the SCG Legacy circuit. With a great deal of what have become houshold names in regards to such. And that with the familiar nature of these tournaments, no one had a problem beating on Alex, nor had any fear of reprisal from him, or the TO. We had 6'8 BFS pounding Alex in the balls. We had >100lb. alterist Hannah using his sack as a speed bag while he was curled up on the floor in agony. This was all YEARS before any of the events that were detailed in Levin's expose' were unveiled to the public.

Do you really think any kind of physical threat is going to concern him in any way?



Where is the line drawn? That is, the line that perma-bans someone from tournaments?(don't want to get into the rape corollary on this one)

As funny as this solution is, I'm not sure it's the correct way to approach things. Couldn't he simply have banned Alex from his store?

[davelin]

As funny as this solution is, I'm not sure it's the correct way to approach things. Couldn't he simply have banned Alex from his store?

Plus wouldn't there be legal reprecussions from this "solution"?

[thecrav]

Plus wouldn't there be legal reprecussions from this "solution"?

The fact that there never were makes me believe that this story is 100% Grade A Bullshit.

[HammafistRoob]

Lol. Not everyone goes running to the police with all their problems.

[davelin]

Lol. Not everyone goes running to the police with all their problems.

Just when it's appropriate to do so.

[thecrav]

Just when it's appropriate to do so.

It's okay. Assault is justified when I think the victim cheated at a card game.

[davelin]

It's okay. Assault is justified when I think the victim cheated at a card game.

I once heard he failed to skip his turn after landing on the licorice square in Candyland.

[TheArchitect]

Is it just me or is having your fb profile image a portrait of you as "veteran explorer" a spit in the face to everyone he's ever cheated?


...
Do you really think any kind of physical threat is going to concern him in any way?

He sounds like a type of kid I remember from middle/high school. You know, the type. They are generally disliked nerds, even outcast among the not-actually-socially-retarded magic playing nerds like myself, but they have an insatiable thirst for attention. It doesn't even have to be positive attention. Even something as horrible as getting kicked in the nuts is still a win for them because it means for a little while people are laughing and paying attention to him. I've thankfully never had the displeasure meeting Alex, but imagine he is basically the "adult" version of those type of kids.

I honestly feel bad for the guy if he is anything like I assume he is. Those type of kids always have serious parental negligence issues.

That said, I feel worse for all the people he's cheated and am pretty disgusted that he is still allowed to play magic. Competitive players, and feature matches with judges and cameras make it a bit harder to cheat all the time, but imagine all the pre-releases, FNMs and weekly drafts hes probably cheated casual, new or young players out of a fair chance for winning.

[blindspotxxx]

Lol what you guys can do is make a card count every freaking turn just to piss him off. Let him count! Then count it yourself. These types of players are pathetic to the lowest level, cheating in a card game... lol They don't mind people having 0 respect for them, where's the glory in winning when you cheated anyway? It's not as if MTG will get you money and a living for you to desperately do that.

I remember this person who played at our local modern weekly who is cheating. He has like 5 copies or more of splinter twin and he always has the combo. There was a week that he won 1st place because he had the combo every freaking time.

What was funny was a friend of mine Surgical Extraction'd him and he automatically scooped not showing his deck. Game 3 went the same way. There our suspicions arose and we figured he might have an illegal decklist. So the 3rd week which is the week after the Surgical incident, everyone was packing Surgical Extractions lol And he scooped every time for every surgical becoming the laughing stock in the magic shop lol He never came back afterwards.

[Dice_Box]

I understand this guy is a dick, has done dick things in the past, will likely do them again and does not deserve the benefit of the doubt, but it is possible that one time he may have just fucked up.

Granted lying did not help his case.

[Quasim0ff]

Lol. Not everyone goes running to the police with all their problems.
Hi,

Fuck the police, coming straight from the underground.

Regards,
A Thug.

[Guie]

Saw a similar situation play out in a tournament a few months ago. Detailed account to give clarity.

Player A: Griselbrand in play. No cards in hand.
Player B: Bounces Griselbrand with Karakas
Player A: Activates Griselbrand in response to Karakas

Both abilities resolve

Player B: Looks at Player A's hand, asks if he drew to many cards.
Player A: Answers No
Player B: Are you sure
Player A: Yes, I'm sure
Player B: Asks to see cards counted
Player A: Lays out cards, showing 8 (7 plus Griselbrand) and satisfying Player B's concern.

I was Player A. I almost always draw cards in a way that prevents me from accidentally drawing too many. A friend would later inform me that Player B (in his experiences) is shady and was fishing for a possible DQ. Doesn't change the legitimacy of his question. The fact is that I did not individually count the cards in my hand the first or second time I was asked. I hate cheaters, but the fact is that I showed the same carelessness as Bertoncini and was an extra card away from likely be viewed as a cheater by many fellow players.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah no...


Then enjoy your cheaters because as long as they have the skill to pull off sleighs of hand, they'll continue to do so.

"If you want your cheaters, you can keep your cheaters".

[Arsenal]

Saw a similar situation play out in a tournament a few months ago. Detailed account to give clarity.

Player A: Griselbrand in play. No cards in hand.
Player B: Bounces Griselbrand with Karakas
Player A: Activates Griselbrand in response to Karakas

Both abilities resolve

Player B: Looks at Player A's hand, asks if he drew to many cards.
Player A: Answers No
Player B: Are you sure
Player A: Yes, I'm sure
Player B: Asks to see cards counted
Player A: Lays out cards, showing 8 (7 plus Griselbrand) and satisfying Player B's concern.

I was Player A. I almost always draw cards in a way that prevents me from accidentally drawing too many. A friend would later inform me that Player B (in his experiences) is shady and was fishing for a possible DQ. Doesn't change the legitimacy of his question. The fact is that I did not individually count the cards in my hand the first or second time I was asked. I hate cheaters, but the fact is that I showed the same carelessness as Bertoncini and was an extra card away from likely be viewed as a cheater by many fellow players.

When my opponent asks how many cards in my hand, I always count them out because sometimes I lose count myself. 4 cards? No, 5 cards? Hmm... good question, let's find out.

This is also the way I was taught Magic, so it's 2nd nature and something I don't even think about anymore. Maybe that has something to do with how people draw their cards?

[HammerAndSickled]

While I've been speaking to generalities regarding the problems surrounding active, and immediate action against cheaters during tournaments, everyone else seems to be on the Bertoncini Bandwagon. Just so people don't keep suggesting that player action will have different results:

During the heyday of Jupiter Games Legacy Series, Eli Kassis, the TO and owner, didn't like Alex. He felt he was a shady player in general, and had a serious problem with a statutory charge Alex caught some time earlier(I don't have any idea about the veracity, or details regarding this. Just Eli's account). To wit, Eli not only allowed people to hit Alex at will at any of his tournaments, he actually rewarded anyone who hit him in the nuts with a pack of whatever the latest set was. He felt is was his was of insuring Alex didn't breed. Keep in mind that this was the tournament system that fed into what is now the SCG Legacy circuit. With a great deal of what have become houshold names in regards to such. And that with the familiar nature of these tournaments, no one had a problem beating on Alex, nor had any fear of reprisal from him, or the TO. We had 6'8 BFS pounding Alex in the balls. We had >100lb. alterist Hannah using his sack as a speed bag while he was curled up on the floor in agony. This was all YEARS before any of the events that were detailed in Levin's expose' were unveiled to the public.
This story is hilarious. It needs to be in that Source quotes thread. Why the fuck did that kid keep coming to events knowing he was gonna get hit in the nuts? :laugh:

[Parcher]

This story is hilarious. It needs to be in that Source quotes thread. Why the fuck did that kid keep coming to events knowing he was gonna get hit in the nuts? :laugh:

Partially, as mentioned above, he liked the attention. Partially because Eli had no problem with him retalliating. Alex definitely got me back more than once. This is all common knowledge to any who attended these tournaments. Can't imagine why anyone would make that up.

To further elaborate on the Hannah story; She was a tiny thin young lady who was at the time dating Jimi Rynk. One of the regulars. She later turned into one of the more prolific alterists showing a most larger event. Though I haven't seen her lately. She was amazed herself at what went on with Alex, and the nutshots, and asked Eli if it was true that he condoned it. He, and a few others insisted that this was the case. And then we all kept pressuring her to follow suit. She, of course refused. That is, until Eli started this conversation:

"You know, the latest released set is Worldwake"
"Ok. So?"
"Well didn't you say you wanted a Jace to alter, but didn't want to pay for that?"
"Yeah"
"You know Jace is in Worldwake?"
"Oh. Ok."

She then completely blindsided Alex when he walked by. He was so used to getting nailed, he instinctively was able to block, or at least partially block most shots. From Hannah, he never saw it coming. And dropped like he was poleaxed. That's not even the best part of the story though. After the laughter died down, Eli smugly handed Hannah her pack over Alex's writhing corpse. She enthusiastically opened........................a Stone Idol Trap.

The everyone's complete amazement, she threw the card at Eli, screeching "What the hell is this?" Eli just pointed down at Alex, "Blame him." Hannah proceeded to drop to her knees, and tee off like Riddick Bowe on Alex's family jewels, emphasizing with each punch, "Where's my Jace!?,(whack), Where's my Jace?!(whack). I'm pretty sure I peed my pants a little.

I really can't think of anyone's story of what they cracked in a pack ever beating that one.

[Einherjer]

I am disgusted.

Yuck!

[TsumiBand]

Holy Christ on a risen cactus.

(a.) The notion that people 'always call the police' -- for the purpose of my rant, let's skip the 'police' connotations and think of it more as 'authority' -- the idea that people contact authority when the situation warrants is, or it is 'rightly deserved' or whatever you want to call it, is false. Beaten spouses. Ghetto violence. People trying to avoid 'stirring the pot'. People not wanting to look like 'a bitch', because apparently we have too much pride to look like we have to run to the authority figures when shit gets real. There is no limit to the reduced reaction an individual will have to any given stimulus.

(b.) Pointing out that there's a huge difference between cheating at Magic and committing rape is correct. Maybe I'm misguided but punishment should fit the crime, regardless of where it lies in regard to the 'relative' nastiness of shit we can do to each other in a given arena. If we were to convict IRL by this metric we would be hard-pressed to dispense real justice because chances are your average crook or felon did not commit nearly as heinous an act as, say, Jim Jones (the guy who invented the "drinkers of the Kool-Aid" expression; until 9/11 this man singlehandedly oversaw the highest US citizen death count in a single event) or some tyrannical bonehead like Pol Pot. At the risk of invoking Godwin, the majority of mass-murdering criminals in the history of everything would fail to hit the bar quite as high as your favorite Führer and mein, so maybe rethink the idea of grading on a curve within the construct of a game.

(c.) If there is even a nugget of truth in that story concerning Alex B getting his snake punched in on the regular, then honestly I have nothing but pity for the guy. Anyone who seeks that kind of attention out actively should really sit and fucking think about their lives and consider the possibility that they have some kind of ADD-adjacent issue going on. That's Psych 101; in the absence of positive reinforcement the brain seeks out stimulation by any means necessary, because that's what it is supposed to do. I mean call me Mr. Fucken Softie, maybe I'm just a hammer looking for nails, but my previous work with developmentally disabled children and adults, in concert with my own diagnosis and subsequent studying, gives me a ton of pause in regard to that story. It isn't even about the ability to make judgment calls at that point.

Anyway, that's my two cents -- trolls may resume.

[Parcher]

Wow. That's the second person that called me a liar. One claiming to be from Texas, and the other from Nebraska.

Well, in the states where people actually do play Legacy off of MODO, these stories from Jupiter are common knowledge. I'd say any Legacy regular from Connecticut down through Virginia at some point attended one of Eli's tournaments. And any one that Alex was at, he got nailed at some point. Again, he gave back as good as he got. But that was the way it was. I'd guess there are anywhere from 50-150 Source members who can verify some, or all of this. Though few frequent the site any longer. Or likely read this thread.

[TsumiBand]

Wow. That's the second person that called me a liar. One claiming to be from Texas, and the other from Nebraska.

Well, in the states where people actually do play Legacy off of MODO, these stories from Jupiter are common knowledge. I'd say any Legacy regular from Connecticut down through Virginia at some point attended one of Eli's tournaments. And any one that Alex was at, he got nailed at some point. Again, he gave back as good as he got. But that was the way it was. I'd guess there are anywhere from 50-150 Source members who can verify some, or all of this. Though few frequent the site any longer. Or likely read this thread.

Well, since honesty is apparently of paramount import, I'm from North Dakota, I just live in Nebraska.

But um, I don't think I called you a liar. The point I was trying to make was, if that story is at all accurate, then Mr. Bertoncini has a much deeper issue to look into than scamming people at MtG.

I suppose you can let me know what you're attempting to infer by calling me out on where I live; I assume wherever you're from, people finish reading before posting, yeah?

EDIT: It appears DuPont Circle (or at least one so-named place) is located in or around Washington DC. If your statement was aimed at a person's capacity for honesty and/or integrity as an expression of their geographical location, you'll pardon me if I pee my socks a little.

[Parcher]

Well, since honesty is apparently of paramount import, I'm from North Dakota, I just live in Nebraska.

But um, I don't think I called you a liar. The point I was trying to make was, if that story is at all accurate, then Mr. Bertoncini has a much deeper issue to look into than scamming people at MtG.

I suppose you can let me know what you're attempting to infer by calling me out on where I live; I assume wherever you're from, people finish reading before posting, yeah?

EDIT: It appears DuPont Circle (or at least one so-named place) is located in or around Washington DC. If your statement was aimed at a person's capacity for honesty and/or integrity as an expression of their geographical location, you'll pardon me if I pee my socks a little.

Oh, no. I coudn't attest one way ot the other to an honesty-by-state concern. What I was referring to was the fact that since 2005, the Mid-Atlantic area has been the largest host to the largest Legacy tournaments in the US. And that from around 2007 until 2012, that Eli ran a great deal of these tournaments. And that anyone who knew both Eli, and Alex, and attended these tournaments was likely witness to these events. And that the vast majority of the players in these events knew each other well. We made events out of them. We went out to dinner the night before, and went out drinking afterwards. And that with everyone, for the most past, being so familiar, if not outright friends, that no one thought anything untoward about these events involving nutshots. Sure, most didn't participate. But not a single person who did felt bad about it. We all thought it was hilarious fun. Including Alex. It wasn't like people were lining up to attack him. This was a two-three times a tournament thing. The funny part was to try a catch him unaware, not beat his ass. And he did the exact same thing. And my point in referencing a different area, ones especially that aren't hotbeds of Legacy action, that such a community likely could not exist. And that from that perspective, someone commenting on the veracity of the claims from someone deep in the heart of such activities would probably have no idea what they were talking about.

[Michael Keller]

Wow. That's the second person that called me a liar. One claiming to be from Texas, and the other from Nebraska.

Well, in the states where people actually do play Legacy off of MODO, these stories from Jupiter are common knowledge. I'd say any Legacy regular from Connecticut down through Virginia at some point attended one of Eli's tournaments. And any one that Alex was at, he got nailed at some point. Again, he gave back as good as he got. But that was the way it was. I'd guess there are anywhere from 50-150 Source members who can verify some, or all of this. Though few frequent the site any longer. Or likely read this thread.

+1.

[TsumiBand]

Oh, no. I coudn't attest one way ot the other to an honesty-by-state concern. What I was referring to was the fact that since 2005, the Mid-Atlantic area has been the largest host to the largest Legacy tournaments in the US. And that from around 2007 until 2012, that Eli ran a great deal of these tournaments. And that anyone who knew both Eli, and Alex, and attended these tournaments was likely witness to these events. And that the vast majority of the players in these events knew each other well. We made events out of them. We went out to dinner the night before, and went out drinking afterwards. And that with everyone, for the most past, being so familiar, if not outright friends, that no one thought anything untoward about these events involving nutshots. Sure, most didn't participate. But not a single person who did felt bad about it. We all thought it was hilarious fun. Including Alex. It wasn't like people were lining up to attack him. This was a two-three times a tournament thing. The funny part was to try a catch him unaware, not beat his ass. And he did the exact same thing. And my point in referencing a different area, ones especially that aren't hotbeds of Legacy action, that such a community likely could not exist. And that from that perspective, someone commenting on the veracity of the claims from someone deep in the heart of such activities would probably have no idea what they were talking about.

Hey, that's fine. Just try and understand I wasn't explicitly questioning your story, just establishing a little if/then logic. "If what you say is true, then blah blah blah."

[gregtron]

Hey, that's fine. Just try and understand I wasn't explicitly questioning your story, just establishing a little if/then logic. "If what you say is true, then blah blah blah."

Quiet, dude, we've moved on from your weird blocks of text to stories of people taking nut shots.

[HammafistRoob]

Hi,

Fuck the police, coming straight from the underground.

Regards,
A Thug.

Hi. Would you please choke on a cock? Kthnxbyee

[sdematt]

One claiming to be from Texas, and the other from Nebraska.

Not actually sure what that part of your statement is supposed to mean. It's not relevant to the conversation, in my opinion.

-Matt

[snorlaxcom]

Not actually sure what that part of your statement is supposed to mean. It's not relevant to the conversation, in my opinion.

-Matt

Read his subsequent post.

+1 on the nut shots actually being a thing.

[Dice_Box]

Quiet, dude, we've moved on from your weird blocks of text to stories of people taking nut shots.
His blocks of text happen to be a fairly spot on view of the situation. I am a Phyc student, I more or less agree with everyone he had to say.

If you keep going back for more abuse, then there is something more fundamentally wrong in the situation. There are 2 stores I do not go to because I do not feel I wish them to have my money. If the owner of the store was paying people to hit me, you can bet I would stop giving that store my money too. I am not saying that anyone here is lying, only that this is fucked up beyond all reason for more reasons than one. The biggest reason is that someone is so starved for attention and friendship that he would agree to go though that just so he can be known.

Its not funny, it's a sad reflection of how the mind works when something is wrong with a person. Both the one taking the nut shots and the bully paying for them to be taken. How much of a dick do you have to be to not outright ban a guy but instead abuse him for your own entertainment?

[Zombie]

Walloftext


I am disgusted.

Yuck!

o_o'
what the **** did I just read Parcher? That's psychotic, full stop.

[dte]

I am disgusted by the fact that most of the posts I read seems to find Alex is "whatever you want" because he went in a shop where people would hit him (or because he cheated to a game).

The crazy thing for me is that there was players who will HIT him for a booster??

And almost nobody here is saying than hurting someone you don't even know to get magic cards is totally crazy??

Fuck.

[Parcher]

I am disgusted by the fact that most of the posts I read seems to find Alex is "whatever you want" because he went in a shop where people would hit him (or because he cheated to a game).

The crazy thing for me is that there was players who will HIT him for a booster??

And almost nobody here is saying than hurting someone you don't even know to get magic cards is totally crazy??

Fuck.


And that the vast majority of the players in these events knew each other well. We made events out of them. We went out to dinner the night before, and went out drinking afterwards. And that with everyone, for the most past, being so familiar, if not outright friends, that no one thought anything untoward about these events involving nutshots. Sure, most didn't participate. But not a single person who did felt bad about it. We all thought it was hilarious fun. Including Alex. It wasn't like people were lining up to attack him. This was a two-three times a tournament thing. The funny part was to try a catch him unaware, not beat his ass. And he did the exact same thing.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I can't see this thread being productive at all
I re-read the OP thinking I would try to steer the conversation back on topic... But arm chair psychology and justifying physical harm against cheaters was sort of the point huh?

In defense of what Parcher said above, my high school friends and I participated in a similar game of 'ball tap'. If you left yourself open, it was expected that you'd get whacked and everyone would laugh. It's a thing... I don't know why... The difference amongst my friends is that no one was singled out. And I am not saying me > you. My friends and I singled people out in other ways because of reasons. Socially motivated behavior makes people do things they wouldn't in a vacuum.

[Richard Cheese]

And that the vast majority of the players in these events knew each other well. We made events out of them. We went out to dinner the night before, and went out drinking afterwards. And that with everyone, for the most past, being so familiar, if not outright friends, that no one thought anything untoward about these events involving nutshots. Sure, most didn't participate. But not a single person who did felt bad about it. We all thought it was hilarious fun. Including Alex. It wasn't like people were lining up to attack him. This was a two-three times a tournament thing. The funny part was to try a catch him unaware, not beat his ass. And he did the exact same thing.

How do a bunch of 14 year-olds go out drinking?

[jandax]

They let the bartender hit them in the nuts

[Michael Keller]

How do a bunch of 14 year-olds go out drinking?

Binghamton was where the old Jupiter events used to be held. The place is like Bartertown out of "Beyond Thunderdome."