High Tide Sportsmanship

[clavio]

Am I obligated to tell my opponent that High Tide affects all players? If I tell him how High Tide works game one and then game two he taps two islands for a remand (forgetting they tap for two basically) would I have to let him take that back? Would a judge watching the game roll that back?

[Lemnear]

Am I obligated to tell my opponent that High Tide affects all players? If I tell him how High Tide works game one and then game two he taps two islands for a remand (forgetting they tap for two basically) would I have to let him take that back? Would a judge watching the game roll that back?

You should at least make sure that your opponent read High Tide and you'd ask him if he knows exactly what the card does. Maybe let him even ask a Judge about it. If he still floats too much mana afterwards, it's not your problem anymore imo.

[warfordium]

i feel that one reminder is enough if there's money on the line. remember that any player can call a judge at any time for oracle text!

(also remember that floating mana has to be announced, lest your opponent tap 2x tundra for white, use the 2 high-tide-added blue, and have only white left over…)

[Tormod]

I'd tell him after the match if he didn't know. Part of becoming good at Legacy is trial by fire.

[Tammit67]

Am I obligated to tell my opponent that High Tide affects all players? If I tell him how High Tide works game one and then game two he taps two islands for a remand (forgetting they tap for two basically) would I have to let him take that back? Would a judge watching the game roll that back?

Here are rules relevant to what you are asking, from the DCI Tournament policy guideline, the rest of which can be found here (Link (http://rules.wizards.com/rulebook.aspx?game=Magic&category=Tournament%20Policy))



4.1. Player Communication Communication between players is essential to the successful play of any game that involves virtual objects or hidden information. While bluffing may be an aspect of games, there need to be clear lines as to what is, and is not, acceptable for players to say or otherwise represent. Officials and highly competitive players should understand the line between bluffing and fraud. This will confirm expectations of both sporting and competitive players during a game.

The philosophy of the DCI is that a player should have an advantage due to better understanding of the rules of a game, greater awareness of the interactions in the current game state, and superior tactical planning. Players are under no obligation to assist their opponents in playing the game. Regardless of anything else, players are expected to treat their opponents politely and with respect. Failure to do so may lead to Unsporting Conduct penalties.

There are three categories of information: free, derived and private.

Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, he or she should call a judge and explain the situation. Free information includes:


Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.
The name of any object in a public zone.
The type of any counter in a public zone.
The physical status (tapped/flipped/unattached/phased) and current zone of any object.
Player life totals, poison counter totals, and the game score of the current match.
The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active



Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist
in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information includes:


The number of any type of objects present in any game zone.
All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free information.
Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.


Private information is information to which players have access only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions.

Any information that is not free or derived is automatically private information.

The following rules govern player communication:

Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match.
Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.
Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.


Judges are encouraged to help players in determining free information, but must avoid assisting players with derived information about the game state.


You don't have to say anything, but you are not allowed to lie.

[Julian23]

I play High Tide. If it resolves, it affects the game. My opponent is free to do whatever he wants with his mana. If he misses it, I see no reason to help him make a better play, I'm sorry. Of course, I'd tell him afterwards.

[Megadeus]

I play High Tide. If it resolves, it affects the game. My opponent is free to do whatever he wants with his mana. If he misses it, I see no reason to help him make a better play, I'm sorry. Of course, I'd tell him afterwards.

This. If my opponent doesn't know he has floating manai see no reason to say anything

[ScatmanX]

I play High Tide. If it resolves, it affects the game. My opponent is free to do whatever he wants with his mana. If he misses it, I see no reason to help him make a better play, I'm sorry. Of course, I'd tell him afterwards.
This.

Question though: players have to announce the ammount of mana floating on their manapool now after casting every spell. The scenario:
After a High Tide resolves, my opponent taps an Island and casts a Flusterstorm on something. He does not announce the mana floating. I, not like him, know the mana is floating. What is the correct procedure in this scenario?
Up until date, I never tell them anything I'm not obliged to tell.

[cherub_daemon]

This.

Question though: players have to announce the ammount of mana floating on their manapool now after casting every spell. The scenario:
After a High Tide resolves, my opponent taps an Island and casts a Flusterstorm on something. He does not announce the mana floating. I, not like him, know the mana is floating. What is the correct procedure in this scenario?
Up until date, I never tell them anything I'm not obliged to tell.

Not sure if this is where you're going, but you gave me the following thought. With an active Player1-cast Tide:

P2 taps Volcanic Island, casts a Flusterstorm (or whatever), does not announce floating mana. You don't interrupt, because they may forget about the Tide mana.
P2 taps Tundra (again, does not announce, you stay mum), casts Brainstorm, draws into StP and Bolt.

If P2 then casts them with floating mana, that's obviously shady as hell. But are you in any kind of trouble for not ensuring that the game state was correct?

[ScatmanX]

But are you in any kind of trouble for not ensuring that the game state was correct?
Yes, that's the question. I just don't tell them he has mana floating after they tapped their land and made a play.
Telling they before hand is just teaching them how to play Magic. Not something I do during the match.

[Julian23]

One should mention that P2 can't cast StP and/or Lightning Bolt in any of these scenarios as High Tide only produces additional U mana. But yeah, we still know what you mean.

I'd love to hear cdr comment on how to handle this. I hope the correct handling involves any kind of punishment for P2 for not announcing his floating mana.

[PirateKing]

One should mention that P2 can't cast StP and/or Lightning Bolt in any of these scenarios as High Tide only produces additional U mana. But yeah, we still know what you mean.

I'd love to hear cdr comment on how to handle this. I hope the correct handling involves any kind of punishment for P2 for not announcing his floating mana.

I think the scenario is they tap the Volcanic Island and Tundra for :r: & :w:, respectively, and use the High Tide mana for the Flusterstorm & Brainstorm. Then they have the mana for Swords and Bolt.

[Julian23]

LOL, now I get is. This is busted and one of the shaddiest moves I've read about in quite a while.

Sadly ambiguity is one of the most problematic issues that I feel can't really be solved without giving what I consider to be an unfair advantage to one of the players.

[Katzby]

High Tide creates delayed triggered abilities, which the IPG (and JAR) have special ways of handling if they are forgotten about or otherwise missed. Since you are the controller of High Tide, you also control the triggered abilities. It is always your responsibility to remember these triggers no matter which player taps an Island. It is never the responsibility of your opponent.

Let's talk about Competitive+ REL Magic.

From the Comprehensive Rules (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/rules):


106.4a If a player passes priority (see rule 116) while there is mana in his or her mana pool, that player announces what mana is there. If any mana remains in a player's mana pool after he or she spends mana to pay a cost, that player announces what mana is still there.

From the IPG (http://www.wizards.com/wpn/Document.aspx?x=Magic_The_Gathering_Infraction_Procedure_Guide):


The point by which the player needs to demonstrate this awareness depends on the impact that the trigger would have on the game:
(...)
•A triggered ability that changes the rules of the game:
The controller must prevent an opponent from taking any resulting illegal action.


Putting this together, this means that you, the High Tide player, don't need to announce the trigger immediately after your opponent taps an island for mana after a High Tide has resolved this turn. If nobody says anything, it's assumed that the trigger resolved and added an extra U to your opponent's mana pool. However, as soon as your opponent passes priority or pays a mana cost without specifically announcing the floating mana, you are required to speak up about it right away.

The triggered ability generated by High Tide is a special kind of triggered ability referred to in the IPG as a "symmetrical ability." Missing it is penalized differently depending on which player taps a land for mana.


Not sure if this is where you're going, but you gave me the following thought. With an active Player1-cast Tide:

P2 taps Volcanic Island, casts a Flusterstorm (or whatever), does not announce floating mana. You don't interrupt

If you didn't interrupt your opponent here because you honestly forgot about the trigger, the infraction is GPE - Missed Trigger, and you should usually receive a warning. If you didn't interrupt your opponent here intentionally and in spite of knowing the above rules and policy, the infraction is USC - Cheating, and you should be disqualified.


Katzby

[ScatmanX]

complete answer
That, imo, sucks. So we have to teach our opponent how to play the game.
Well. Nothing we can do about it then. If they have mana floating after a spell, we need to tell them. Ok.
Thanks.

[PirateKing]

If under a High Tide, an opponent taps a Volcanic Island, can we ask them for what color, and if they say blue, be guaranteed that they only have :u: floating due to High Tide?

Say it goes down like this, I play High Tide, they let it resolve, other stuff happens, then they tap a Volcanic Island and play Brainstorm. I ask then what color they produced from the Volcanic Island, and they look confused but say "Blue, why?". I tell them about High Tide and they say, "Oh, red then". I call a judge. What happens?

[clavio]

That's so shitty