[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Togores]

And is enpty so good vs them usualy? Im still not sure...

[sawatarix]

I personally really enjoy to generate 6-10 goblins vs Miracle right now, no need to go all in.
( i finally play 1 on in the main and 2 (!) additional copies in my sb for now)
Pretty sure i will need them at the upcoming Grand Prix Kyoto.

[Dark Ritual]

2) Just an in-game situation, it has not a perfect solution I think, I just want to hear your opinion. I was playing against some sort of Zoo, I'm in my turn 3, I'm dead on board, so I need to win this turn. I have plenty of rituals and LEDs in my hand, but still lack a Tutor. I have a Preordain and a Ponder, three lands untapped into play, producing enough coloured mana for double cantrip + dark ritual. Would you go Preordain and then Ponder, to dig 6 card deep, then shuffle and peel the first card, or Ponder first, to dig 3 cards deep, then shuffle, draw and play Preordain for a total of 4 cards depth after the shuffle? Both options grant 7 cards to be saw, but in different ways.
It reminds me when I was 4 or 5 years old and I used to make a ball of plasticine and hide a little piece of something into it, then, to find it, I had to choose between digging in depth in one point or peeling the edges of the ball :laugh:

In this scenario I would go for ponder first because if you shuffle after putting 2 bad cards on the bottom via scry you can draw said cards again post shuffle. Ponder shuffle first means you can still see trash in the top 4 post shuffle/the same cards but that's how it goes sometimes. Both see the same amount of cards but ponder limits the amount of dead cards you see because you don't shuffle in 2 bad cards. Depending on the hand I could see breaking LED(s) in response to the 2nd cantrip but it greatly depends on the hand.

[Togores]

I personally really enjoy to generate 6-10 goblins vs Miracle right now, no need to go all in.
( i finally play 1 on in the main and 2 (!) additional copies in my sb for now)
Pretty sure i will need them at the upcoming Grand Prix Kyoto.

Kai

Yeah I think the best plan is having at least 2 copies sb (with or without md one) so you can usualy draw it naturaly in most situations.

Whats ur current build with 1+2 emptys? Md and sb. im gonna play in rome next month mkm and Im still not sure what list (and specially sb) run. As always im missing 2 sb slots. With 17 sb cards all would be awesome.

[sawatarix]

So this is pretty close the ideal list for the upcoming GP in my opinion.All tools are there to fight japans DTBs
(Most played decks are UR Delver,Miracles,Omnishow)

Ant.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/54051

[Ancestral]

So this is pretty close the ideal list for the upcoming GP in my opinion.All tools are there to fight japans DTBs
(Most played decks are UR Delver,Miracles,Omnishow)

Ant.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/54051

interesting :) you don´t like grim tutor there kai ? without ad nauseum in man and +1 ritual effect, grim tutor gets better no ?

[CabalTherapy]

interesting :) you don´t like grim tutor there kai ? without ad nauseum in man and +1 ritual effect, grim tutor gets better no ?

Kai doesn't like Grimmy because it is a whiteborder card.

[Ancestral]

Kai doesn't like Grimmy because it is a whiteborder card.


i ll give you that :p but still i think in this configuration can be very good

[sawatarix]

Pampam,
I took my list from above to another GPT at HareruyaStore in Tokyo.
Around 166 Players showed up and there were 8 rounds of swiss and a top8 single elimination.
i faced:

2:0 omnishow
1:2 Tes
2:0 Maverick
2:0 Miracle
2:0 Lands
2:0 Bug Delver (Stifle)
2:0 Bug Delver (Hymns)
2:0 Miracle

7:1:0 after swiss and i finished 3rd among 166 Players, What a fight !
Quarterfinal. 2:0 Reanimator
Semifinal: Concession to a friend who needs byes for the GP because I alreeady have 2.
The deck felt incredibly strong and i would only change 1 or 2 cards in the entire 75 before GP Kyoto.
Gotry yourself !
Greetings,
Kaihttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/29/67ed99a36852974d2f0c7a7966316840.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/29/6835fe2453afe4fada4086a998ef896f.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/29/c63015c2d0e23fad0a477da148f9b169.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/29/46a4e51d869229775e15a6fe09b45e09.jpg

[Togores]

Kai doesn't like Grimmy because it is a whiteborder card.

Hahahahaha its just the sane reason why I dont play it. Its just so sad t play al black border and the. White border grim...


Congrats kai!
Or you are a beast or japan players are bad. So many 2-0 its not easy.

[Namida]

Or you are a beast or japan players are bad. So many 2-0 its not easy.

My experience has been that most Japanese players have little to no experience against Storm (Omniscience is the most popular combo deck by far). I'm not even a good Storm player and I get a ton of free wins from people just not knowing what's going on, so I figure someone who actually knows what they're doing would do pretty well here.

[Jonathan Alexander]

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
3 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bayou
1 Tendrils of Agony

4-0 + ID today. Liked the list, but the third Tendrils might not be needed right now. Not sure about Top either. Could be Cabal Ritual, could be Preordain.

[Ancestral]

kai congrats om that run, and very impressive results against hard matchups :D

And 166 for a gpt legacy?? when it´s the next flight to japan?!?

[sawatarix]

Some impressions i have had during the tournament:

- I really really like the 2 Past in Flames Build. It feels so good to execute the combo while having Past in Flames in your hand because it gives you an additional backup in case something gets countered.

-I'm not 100% sold on Top main. There are matchup where the card really shines (Heavy discard decks) while it sucks in others. I boarded it out too often so I might cut it.

- Ad Nauseam is such a bad card ! I know it's somewhat ironical because I was so confident about the 2 Ad Nauseam list during spring 2014. I played this card 3 times in total from approximately 16-18 lifepoints. I had to pass the turn 2 times and i killed myself one time. Especially with only 3 Lotus Petals It's maybe time to say goodbye to my old friend.

-If i cut Ad Nauseam entirely from my 75 there is still the need for a very fast engine against decks like Elves/Death&Taxes/Burn/Mirror/Combodecks ingeneral. Maybe it's time to welcome back an card which got an reprint last year: I'm talking about Ill-Gotten Gains.

-3 Empty the Warren are Nuts against Miracle

-Still try to fit in a bayou in the 75...


That's about it. Tell me what you think or your experience with Ill-Gotten Gains

[KevinH]

Some impressions i have had during the tournament:

- I really really like the 2 Past in Flames Build. It feels so good to execute the combo while having Past in Flames in your hand because it gives you an additional backup in case something gets countered.

-I'm not 100% sold on Top main. There are matchup where the card really shines (Heavy discard decks) while it sucks in others. I boarded it out too often so I might cut it.

- Ad Nauseam is such a bad card ! I know it's somewhat ironical because I was so confident about the 2 Ad Nauseam list during spring 2014. I played this card 3 times in total from approximately 16-18 lifepoints. I had to pass the turn 2 times and i killed myself one time. Especially with only 3 Lotus Petals It's maybe time to say goodbye to my old friend.

-If i cut Ad Nauseam entirely from my 75 there is still the need for a very fast engine against decks like Elves/Death&Taxes/Burn/Mirror/Combodecks ingeneral. Maybe it's time to welcome back an card which got an reprint last year: I'm talking about Ill-Gotten Gains.

-3 Empty the Warren are Nuts against Miracle

-Still try to fit in a bayou in the 75...


That's about it. Tell me what you think or your experience with Ill-Gotten Gains

Why play IGG when there's PIF? Also, can't you just play more Tendrils instead of EtW?

[Megadeus]

IGG is your "quick" way to win the game against the combo decks. Like Ad Nauseam. Seems pretty fine actually

[sawatarix]

I keep Pif in my deck of course.
With Iggy we can combo off with only 1 ritual+led+tutor while Pif needs either 2 Infernal Tutors or 2 Rituals.

2-3 Tendrils are also fine against Miracle but Empty allows us to create dudes without wasting ressources (rituals) and with a lower stormcount. For example Brainstorm+Probe+Petal+Empty -> 8 Dudes which is really threatening against miracle with only 2-3 sweepers left in their deck.And we still keep around 5-6 cards in hand to combo off again soon.

[KevinH]

How does or make your combo matchup better? Making them discard a ton of cards seems irrelevant since you're winning if you're casting it anyways, right?

[sawatarix]

Yeah but unlike Ad Nauseam i don't kill myelf.

[KevinH]

How is your life total being pressured against the combo matchups?

It seems irrelevant anyways since when you're casting any of these spells (PiF, IGG, Ad Nauseum) you should be winning the game anyways...

Didn't realize you were cutting AN for IGG either, its just redundant when you have PiF though...

[sawatarix]

Actually not.
Ad Nauseam is not a safe kill. As i wrote before, I played this card 3 times in total from approximately 16-18 lifepoints. I had to pass the turn 2 times and i killed myself one time. Thats not what you wanna do against combodecks. Pif is a safe kill but you need more ressources. Iggy needs the fewest and is superfast plus a safe kill.

[Megadeus]

Safe against non blue at least

[sawatarix]

Safe against non blue at least

well against sneakshow and reanimator we bring in xantid swarm anyway so that should'nt be a problem at all.

[Megadeus]

Sure. I mean against DnT/Elves is pretty fine and fast. I think AN is fine against combo though. I'm on the 2x PiF plan and I simply board out a PiF for AN.

[Togores]

How does the deck work vs turn 1 death rite shaman? Or if the opponent plays rest in pieces? Beimg allmoat all in on a graveyard deck dosnt seems too cool for me. i know pif is always a better kill. But...

[nevilshute]

Interesting to hear you mention IGG Kai. I can see how AN becomes even worse with only 3 petals. I still like it against combo. I'm running 4 petals though. Against Show and Tell decks I will usually board:

-1 swamp
-1 past in flames
-1 empty the warrens
-2 duress
-1 cabal ritual

+1 ad nauseam
+1 chain of vapor
+2 xantid swarm
+2 flusterstorm

[Jonathan Alexander]

Interesting to hear you mention IGG Kai. I can see how AN becomes even worse with only 3 petals. I still like it against combo. I'm running 4 petals though. Against Show and Tell decks I will usually board:

-1 swamp
-1 past in flames
-1 empty the warrens
-2 duress
-1 cabal ritual

+1 ad nauseam
+1 chain of vapor
+2 xantid swarm
+2 flusterstorm

You should board out Therapy over Duress because you never want to miss. It's also not always clear what you have to go for with Therapy when you don't know their hand. Therapy also doesn't really work if they have Brainstorm or Dig Through Time in their hand.
Sure, Therapy can nab multiple cards and has synergy with Xantid Swarm, plus you can use it to get hellbent. Still, Duress is the clear winner to me.
Also, I don't like boarding out lands in general. Can't think of a single matchup where I go below 15. You might want to consider boarding out Top. The games are too short for it to be really good.


Further, on that whole Ill-Gotten Gains vs. Ad Nauseam thing, that's just insane. I honestly don't think the deck is even playable without Ad Nauseam anywhere in the 75. You can get away with not having it maindeck, but after boarding, when people have tons of interaction, you really need a way to win just from few cards. This is what Ad Nauseam does.

[jjrotzo]

I played my first tournament with ANT yesterday and received a savage beating, sometimes due to bad plays but often I did neither draw a fast kill nor see any way to grind the games out that I've lost. Nevertheless I still want to become a storm trooper.

As I am writing this, a certain Greek proverb comes to my mind:

"One who goes unpunished never learns."

Maybe you can give me some advise on the matches listed below. I played a stock list including Grim Tutor and my SB looked like this:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Xantid Swarm
1 City of Solitude
2 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
1 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

Round 1 - Miracle
G1: I duress SDT on the play and see two FoW, but he topdecks another Top immediatly anyway and I get CBTop-locked
Out: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Petal, 2 Preordain, Duress, Cabal Therapy In: 3 Abrupt Decay, City of Solitude, 2 Xantid Swarm, Tendrils
G2: At one point I am one mana spell short from the combo. Right there his Vendilion Clique during my draw step takes away my Infernal leaving me with Tendrils in hand, adding 1 to my storm count, and giving me another Ritual for the kill.
G3: After freeing myself from CB Top twice, I try to go off on the last extra turn, but he has FoW on a bottleneck Cabal Ritual
0-1-0

Round 2 - Burg Delver
G1: Delver + DRS beat me with massive counter backup
Out: Preordain, Petal, Grim Tutor In: City of Solitude, Chain of Vapor, Burning Wish
G2: I strip his counters and go off with Ad Nauseam from 13 Life and two mana floating, flipping land, LED, LED, LED, Infernal for the win
G3: Probe shows double Force, double Spell Snare und his Delver trigger reveals Flusterstorm. Without any discard in sight and facing lethal damage I go off with Tendrils in hand, but of course he has Stifle as well
0-1-1

Round 3 - MUD
G1: He goes Mulligan to 6, then Ancient Tomb, Spirit Guide, Trinisphere on the play ... Fold
Out: Grim Tutor, 2 Preordain, 1 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy In: 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Chain of Vapor
G2: Another first turn Trinisphere, that I can decay this time. However he follows up with Metalworker into Platinum Emperion + Chalice@1 I don't find Decay + Chain in time
0-1-2

Round 4 - Death&Taxes
G1: Blind Therapy hits Thalia, second Therapy hits Revoker. She topdecks and deploys another Thalia Turn 3 and beats me to death.
Out: 3 Duress In: 2 Dread of Night, 1 Massacre
G2: Revoker nails two LEDs in my hand, Port and Waste cut me from black mana, and Revoker + Batterskull beat me to death in spite of two Dread of Night in play (which were necessary to get rid of Canonist).
0-1-3

Round 5 - Canadian Threshold
G1: Without discard, I run into Stifle facing lethal Delver damage
Out: Preordain, Petal In: City of Solitude, Chain of Vapor
G2: I answer his first turn Needle on LED (oops) with a PiF-Kill involving double LED
In: 2 Xantid Swarm Out: 1 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy (I saw Pyroblast + 2 Needles, so I thought, maybe he had boarded out Bolts)
G3: After First Turn Delver into Dazing Therapy and Forcing City of Solitude, he still has double Daze + Stifle to stop me. I think I made a mistake here when I played the non-Dazeproof Therapy instead of using an excess Infernal to get a second Therapy next turn.
0-1-4

Losing two preboard games because I didn't have any tools to get rid of a permanent was particularly annoying. What's the best way to tackle this problem?

A) 1 Chain of Vapor in the Main. If nothing else, it acts as a storm engine combined with artifact mana

B) 1 Burning Wish instead of Grim Tutor Main + Bounce in the Side. Can get Tendrils too. (Please note, I want to stick to ANT, not TES)

C) Ignore it. Sh*t happens.

Thanks for your help!

[nevilshute]

Losing two preboard games because I didn't have any tools to get rid of a permanent was particularly annoying. What's the best way to tackle this problem?

A) 1 Chain of Vapor in the Main. If nothing else, it acts as a storm engine combined with artifact mana

B) 1 Burning Wish instead of Grim Tutor Main + Bounce in the Side. Can get Tendrils too. (Please note, I want to stick to ANT, not TES)

C) Ignore it. Sh*t happens.

Thanks for your help!

I think you'll find most ANT players going for option C. Alternatively option B. I go with C myself. I don't like Burning Wish all that much in ANT.

[Togores]

Interesting to hear you mention IGG Kai. I can see how AN becomes even worse with only 3 petals. I still like it against combo. I'm running 4 petals though. Against Show and Tell decks I will usually board:

-1 swamp
-1 past in flames
-1 empty the warrens
-2 duress
-1 cabal ritual

+1 ad nauseam
+1 chain of vapor
+2 xantid swarm
+2 flusterstorm

Duress >>>> than therapy vs a show deck.

I usualy sb like this against show:
+3 xantid
+2 fluster
+0-2 chain (depending on how leyline does)

-2 therapy
-1 swamp
-1 preordain
-2 sensei
( other options -1/2 cabal-3rd therapy -1/2 petal)

Usualy this works well.

[Megadeus]

I go with option C generally though I have debated a burning wish or two just because I kind of want the "fifth" tutor and I'm not a fan of Grim.

[Sloshthedark]

Grim Tutor - like seriously?? just have it BBed


Some impressions i have had during the tournament:

- I really really like the 2 Past in Flames Build. It feels so good to execute the combo while having Past in Flames in your hand because it gives you an additional backup in case something gets countered.

-I'm not 100% sold on Top main. There are matchup where the card really shines (Heavy discard decks) while it sucks in others. I boarded it out too often so I might cut it.

- Ad Nauseam is such a bad card ! I know it's somewhat ironical because I was so confident about the 2 Ad Nauseam list during spring 2014. I played this card 3 times in total from approximately 16-18 lifepoints. I had to pass the turn 2 times and i killed myself one time. Especially with only 3 Lotus Petals It's maybe time to say goodbye to my old friend.

-If i cut Ad Nauseam entirely from my 75 there is still the need for a very fast engine against decks like Elves/Death&Taxes/Burn/Mirror/Combodecks ingeneral. Maybe it's time to welcome back an card which got an reprint last year: I'm talking about Ill-Gotten Gains.

-3 Empty the Warren are Nuts against Miracle

-Still try to fit in a bayou in the 75...


That's about it. Tell me what you think or your experience with Ill-Gotten Gains

Congrats! Finaly convinced by the power of the 2 Pif/Etw Build? ;)

I'm glad you tried SB EtW, I wasn't sure how good it might be... regarding Igg I'd like to belive and play it but don't think it's a good card anymore, also uses graveyard, very bad in opening hand and only improves your deck i marginal situations... MU like Elves is exactly why AdN is useful (and Hymn decks now), that was my only reason to play it at all like a year ago, while not playing AdN at all I lost only 1 mirrormatch in that period and that should be the MU you want it most of all combo

[Togores]

How does the deck work vs turn 1 death rite shaman? Or if the opponent plays rest in pieces? Beimg allmoat all in on a graveyard deck dosnt seems too cool for me. i know pif is always a better kill. But...

@kai and slosh

[Keller Dover]

Ad Nauseam is not a safe kill. As i wrote before, I played this card 3 times in total from approximately 16-18 lifepoints. I had to pass the turn 2 times and i killed myself one time.

Are you kidding me? What kind of a sample size is that? Removing thoroughly tested and crucial parts from the deck and claiming Ad Nauseam "is not a safe kill" just because you are salty over three fizzled Ad Nauseams seems straight up bad to me, to put it nicely.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Are you kidding me? What kind of a sample size is that? Removing thoroughly tested and crucial parts from the deck and claiming Ad Nauseam "is not a safe kill" just because you are salty over three fizzled Ad Nauseams seems straight up bad to me, to put it nicely.

For what it's worth, I removed Ad Nauseam from the main after a couple hundred hours of testing and have put up solid tournament results with the deck since I did that.

I think Ad Nauseam is a great SB tool though, and I would not cut it from my SB. When you are boarding it in against decks like Miracles, you don't necessarily need to go all-in on winning on the spot, and if you are killing yourself post-SB against those types of decks, you are probably not playing the card entirely correctly.

[IlCannone]

@Keller Dover: I think he just referred to the tournament he was reporting from. I guess he made more than 3 Ad Nauseam's in his life that fizzled ;)

I just can't convince myself to cut the card from the maindeck. It just enables some random wins, and I want to keep the chance of having that, because I think it is part of what makes this deck so strong and also feared, as you can sometimes switch gears as you wish.

The times where Ad Nauseam fizzled from 18 or 16 have not been much. But i keep my CC's in main low by just playing 1 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 1 AdN so I dont flip many huge spells. It also depends a lot what cards you use to enable the AdN and the floating mana of course. Turn 1 AdN with 2 rituals or even some petals already used to cast AdN with 0 floating is a bit of a risk for sure.

[sawatarix]

Here are the Top 16 Decklists from the 166 Man GPT in Tokyo, so you get an idea of what decks are popular here:

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/search/Deck.tournament_id:T036937/Tournament.name:%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8BGPT

This also makes me think about changing some sideboard slots...

[Sloshthedark]

@kai and slosh

in order of appearence: EtW, PiF through, Natural chain, Natural storm/Double ToA (for me)... and yes a start of USea+DRS is very bad, actually it's always very bad AdN or not

I've played a SB Confidant build w Ad Nauseam main few times in last month and cast Ad Nauseam once - because it was in my hand G1 and killed myself from 20, B floating... usualy even if I board in AdN I don't cast it


For what it's worth, I removed Ad Nauseam from the main after a couple hundred hours of testing and have put up solid tournament results with the deck since I did that.

I think Ad Nauseam is a great SB tool though, and I would not cut it from my SB. When you are boarding it in against decks like Miracles, you don't necessarily need to go all-in on winning on the spot, and if you are killing yourself post-SB against those types of decks, you are probably not playing the card entirely correctly.

this

[Lemnear]

@Keller Dover: I think he just referred to the tournament he was reporting from. I guess he made more than 3 Ad Nauseam's in his life that fizzled ;)

I just can't convince myself to cut the card from the maindeck. It just enables some random wins, and I want to keep the chance of having that, because I think it is part of what makes this deck so strong and also feared, as you can sometimes switch gears as you wish.

The times where Ad Nauseam fizzled from 18 or 16 have not been much. But i keep my CC's in main low by just playing 1 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 1 AdN so I dont flip many huge spells. It also depends a lot what cards you use to enable the AdN and the floating mana of course. Turn 1 AdN with 2 rituals or even some petals already used to cast AdN with 0 floating is a bit of a risk for sure.

AN w/o at least 2 mana floating is a pain in the Ass in this deck due to the higher average cmc, less initial mana available and the need to find either ToA or IT + LED off AN. In any other case it's "just" a draw-spell, you don't really need because PIF can create cardadvantage as well especially if you run two and can use of for value-plays.

The real advantage of playing w/o AN is that you no longer have to give a fuck about cmc postboard. You can board Decays and Massacres without any fear of harming your engines. If you want to maintain a quick "I win" burst play in the Maindeck, you can include a single EtW. I hope I don't have to mention how much control and disruption you gain by simply being able to flashback Massacres/Decays/Discard/EtW in certain situations. AN is only better than EtW in combo matchups.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Ad Nauseam with no mana floating is about 80% to win the game on the spot if you have 16 life or more. Chrome Mox, Rain of Filth and a second Tendrils each increase this by a couple percentage points. In fact, a list with two Ad Nauseams and one Mox produces better Ad Nauseams than a list with only one Ad Nauseam and two Preordains in those slots. Sample size is ~500 games.

[Tvox]

Ad Nauseam with no mana floating is about 80% to win the game on the spot if you have 16 life or more. Chrome Mox, Rain of Filth and a second Tendrils each increase this by a couple percentage points. In fact, a list with two Ad Nauseams and one Mox produces better Ad Nauseams than a list with only one Ad Nauseam and two Preordains in those slots. Sample size is ~500 games.
You wouldn't happen to have more exact statistics on this or information on where it can be located? I'd really appreciate the read and will probably be able to compose a spreadsheet if there's none currently.

[Jonathan Alexander]

What I did was pretty much goldfish Ad Nauseams with certain sets of cards still left in the deck. The assumption was generally that it was turn two, I had two lands on board and was on seventeen life. I think I worked under the assumption Ad Nauseam was the fourth spell, but not sure on that. I didn't take enough notes for these to be really useful, as my goal was just to compare different setups and not to find the actual numbers. I'm not even sure if I still have my notes, but I might go back to doing these as I have lots of free time right now.

[Mackan]

Thanks for the videos Nevilshute. I just finished the 1 hour deck tech and will start with the matches now. Keep up the good work! /Truckis

[Ghiwo]

All of you playing with the second PIF are starting to get me interested! :tongue: So let me just ask some things. I have to say that you are talking with a guy who never played 2 PIFs in legacy, the only experience I have with more than one in modern, with UR storm. What are the main advantages of playing it, other than the obvious "you can fight better through counters"? How many blind PIFs do you usually attempt? I mean without any tutor or tendrils in hand or grave. And, does it affect your average turn of going off?
Thanks to who wants to reply me!

About Ad Nauseam, I know since a lot of time that AN is a bad card, as much as I believe all of you know. But I think it is a pain I have to accept, in order to have the card in the few situations where it's good. The problem with it, as you know,is that when you want it to be your "go-to engine" for the kill, you are usually in a situation where it is more likely to fail. Most of the times you want it on turn 1 or 2, otherwise you can afford a PIF loop or a tutor chain kill. In these situation, you will almost always have no land drop available, no mana floating, or, in the best scenarios, B floating. With no mana floating you have to flip BOTH lotus petal and dark ritual, most of the times having used at least a ritual (and often also a petal) just to get to the 7 mana AN requires. That's really hard without any mox or other 1 mana ritual. Also you need Tutor + LED or ToA, just like Lemnear said.

That said, my philosophy is trying to avoid using it as much as I can. Usually vs. decks like Miracles, DeathBlade, and controls in general in becomes an EOT draw spell in combination with Cabal Ritual. Also, I play it from my hand if I have a Ritual that produces 5 blacks, a decent amount of life but not another business spell in my hand. When I have to use it as a kill I will do it only if it's strictly necessary. Just an example: a week ago I was playing a match vs. Lands, g3 and I was on the play. I mulligan to 6 and open a hand with land, probe, tutor, led, ritual, petal. I didn't like the idea of going turn 1 AN with no mana floating and having to flip both petal and dark rit. So I played probe, to see if I really needed to go off turn 1, even if I lost 2 life I thought it was worth it. I saw a hand with no action, I drew a land from probe, played one and just passed the turn. I thought at least turn 2 I can AN with B floating. Turn 2 I drew another dark ritual, and won easily with a PIF loop. Maybe I played bad, but I would play again like this a hundred times in a row, I don't trust AN with no mana no land drop in this deck.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Drawing Past in Flames makes drawing Tendrils better.
More copies of Past in Flames also make countermagic worse against you. Not only because it has to be countered twice but also because you don't rely on Infernal Tutor as much.
Cantrip Past in Flames only happen when you're forced to go off or can off again next turn in case you whiff on finding Tendrils.
Not having Ad Nauseam in your deck means you don't have to care about the average converted mana cost of your deck.

The only reason not to go for the turn one Ad Nauseam against Lands is if they're guaranteed not to have anything next turn, but they might draw into Chalice, Surgical Extraction or Mindbreak Trap. With Ad Nauseam, worst case you draw loads of cards and kill them next turn.

Ad Nauseam is never 100% to win, but often Past in Flames isn't either. I've had games where going for Ad Nauseam was preferable to going for Past in Flames because of unknown cards in my opponents' hands. There are plenty of matchups where Past in Flames is enough, but there are also a couple where you really want to have Ad Nauseam. Elves and Sneak & Show come to mind for example. I also board out the second copy of Past in Flames against Miracles and UWR Delver without bringing in Ad Nauseam when I'm on the 3 Tendrils plan, which I usually am.

Feel free to ask more specific questions, I've been playing multiple copies of Past in Flames ever since it first came out, so chances are I'll be able to answer them.

[Sloshthedark]

All of you playing with the second PIF are starting to get me interested! :tongue: So let me just ask some things. I have to say that you are talking with a guy who never played 2 PIFs in legacy, the only experience I have with more than one in modern, with UR storm. What are the main advantages of playing it, other than the obvious "you can fight better through counters"? How many blind PIFs do you usually attempt? I mean without any tutor or tendrils in hand or grave. And, does it affect your average turn of going off?
Thanks to who wants to reply me!

About Ad Nauseam, I know since a lot of time that AN is a bad card, as much as I believe all of you know. But I think it is a pain I have to accept, in order to have the card in the few situations where it's good. The problem with it, as you know,is that when you want it to be your "go-to engine" for the kill, you are usually in a situation where it is more likely to fail. Most of the times you want it on turn 1 or 2, otherwise you can afford a PIF loop or a tutor chain kill. In these situation, you will almost always have no land drop available, no mana floating, or, in the best scenarios, B floating. With no mana floating you have to flip BOTH lotus petal and dark ritual, most of the times having used at least a ritual (and often also a petal) just to get to the 7 mana AN requires. That's really hard without any mox or other 1 mana ritual. Also you need Tutor + LED or ToA, just like Lemnear said.

That said, my philosophy is trying to avoid using it as much as I can. Usually vs. decks like Miracles, DeathBlade, and controls in general in becomes an EOT draw spell in combination with Cabal Ritual. Also, I play it from my hand if I have a Ritual that produces 5 blacks, a decent amount of life but not another business spell in my hand. When I have to use it as a kill I will do it only if it's strictly necessary. Just an example: a week ago I was playing a match vs. Lands, g3 and I was on the play. I mulligan to 6 and open a hand with land, probe, tutor, led, ritual, petal. I didn't like the idea of going turn 1 AN with no mana floating and having to flip both petal and dark rit. So I played probe, to see if I really needed to go off turn 1, even if I lost 2 life I thought it was worth it. I saw a hand with no action, I drew a land from probe, played one and just passed the turn. I thought at least turn 2 I can AN with B floating. Turn 2 I drew another dark ritual, and won easily with a PIF loop. Maybe I played bad, but I would play again like this a hundred times in a row, I don't trust AN with no mana no land drop in this deck.

Reasons - Consistency, speed, you develop certain feeling when it is enough to go blind Pif - It feels a bit "Ad Nauseam" but you're managing odds in the process, I goldfished some situations a lot like Jona and I'm fairly aggresive with these at 2 ToA... depends on the MU obv. it's always managing the odds and finding the best spot to win.. btw. first time you get PiF DRSed away just to grab another one is sweet...

for me Ad Nauseam got cast most because it was already in hand and sometimes leads into poor plays trying to cast it

question is whether you get better cards than you already have with the Ad Nauseam, depending on opps hand I'd have played LED - go and went for Ad Nauseam next turn

[Timmy101]

Those of you running 2 PiF also run 2 Tendrils?
And I'm assuming if the above is true, then AdN is relegated to the sideboard?
Additionally, I assume those running 2 PiF also run a 2nd red land in the main, either volcanic x2 or volc/badlands?

Thanks for the help.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think most people run 2 Past in Flames 1 Tendrils 1 Empty the Warrens with Empty doing stand-in for Ad Nauseam. Personally, I like 3 Tendrils when running 2 Past in Flames, although that's not very common overall.
The second red land is not really needed in my opinion. I prefer running two green sources in my 75, although that's probably not necessary anymore either with UWR Delver on the decline. Basically, you have room for three lands that produce either red or green and you have to consider which colour you are more likely to expose to Wasteland. Further, Lotus Petals and Lion's Eye Diamonds do produce red mana for Past in Flames. Using them in your combo turn is alright, but having to use a Petal to cast an Abrupt Decay against UWR Delver can really hurt.

Your sideboard or metagame might dictate the use of two red sources though, in which case I suggest running 2 Volcanics and 1 Bayou. This way, you are least likely to end up with lands that essentially only tap for colourless during your combo turn.

[sawatarix]

interesting approach, 2 Volcanics+1 Bayou instead of Volcanic Idland+Tropical Island+Badlands

have to give it a try.
Tropical Island has always been a terrible land among all the others because it's almost always Island#2

So i supppse this could be like the new staple manabase

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire (or 4th Misty)

[owerbart]

is there any ANT list i can assemble if my only duals are 2 U. Seas, a bayou and a volcanic island? i have leds, fetches and all that stuff, i don't have a grim tutor tho :(

[entreri_fans]

is there any ANT list i can assemble if my only duals are 2 U. Seas, a bayou and a volcanic island? i have leds, fetches and all that stuff, i don't have a grim tutor tho :(

Hi, of course your dual lands are already enough to build ANT. like other players said previous, you don't necessarily need tropical island.

About the lack of grim tutor, I think that's not a big problem (I myself also don't have), as far as I know, there mainly are 2 alternative plans:

(1) you can play some sensei's divining tops to have a stronger ability to dig for your business, (compared with pure cantrips ANT)

(2) you can play the grinding station versions. you cut Ad Nauseam from your main deck, and add 1 more past in flames and 1 more tendrils (or empty the warrens). thus you will have a higher possibility to combo without infernal tutor.

[owerbart]

Hi, of course your dual lands are already enough to build ANT. like other players said previous, you don't necessarily need tropical island.

About the lack of grim tutor, I think that's not a big problem (I myself also don't have), as far as I know, there mainly are 2 alternative plans:

(1) you can play some sensei's divining tops to have a stronger ability to dig for your business, (compared with pure cantrips ANT)

(2) you can play the grinding station versions. you cut Ad Nauseam from your main deck, and add 1 more past in flames and 1 more tendrils (or empty the warrens). thus you will have a higher possibility to combo without infernal tutor.

Hi

Thanks for the quick answer bro. I'll look for the double PiF versions.

[wonderPreaux]

is there any ANT list i can assemble if my only duals are 2 U. Seas, a bayou and a volcanic island? i have leds, fetches and all that stuff, i don't have a grim tutor tho :(

2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

The standard manabase is 15 lands, the rest can be a fairly standard 45 spells: 16 accelerants, 6-7 protection, 4 Tutors, 13-16 cantrips, 3-5 storm cards/engines, 0-3 tech (I count Grim as tech, fwiw)

[Lemnear]

interesting approach, 2 Volcanics+1 Bayou instead of Volcanic Idland+Tropical Island+Badlands

have to give it a try.
Tropical Island has always been a terrible land among all the others because it's almost always Island#2

So i supppse this could be like the new staple manabase

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire (or 4th Misty)

Funny, as it looks like the TES manabase at a certain time :)

The Bayou is pretty good compared to the Tropical as you can cast all protection off it your deck offers. It's only worth mention that you now need 3 IMS' for casting Decay + PIF compared to Tropical Island + Badlands for having access to all 4 colors, but given the fact that you need RB in your comboturn anyways, that isn't much of a difference.

Getting to follow up your U.Sea with a Bayou against Miracles and suddenly be able to cast Duress/Xantid/Decay is a nice feat. enabled by running the Bayou instead of Tropical especially as it never conflicts your cantripping T1/2.

[Sloshthedark]

Those of you running 2 PiF also run 2 Tendrils?
And I'm assuming if the above is true, then AdN is relegated to the sideboard?
Additionally, I assume those running 2 PiF also run a 2nd red land in the main, either volcanic x2 or volc/badlands?

Thanks for the help.

I do, I don't like 3 ToA, and EtW is too powerful to exclude
it is, I don't like it but stil have it in SB
I do Volc+Badlands, I like that manabase much more and also have R in my sideboard, generaly I don't like preboarded lands over fetches so I have G land(s) in SB, If I was on 4+ G spells a Bayou over Badlands is defensible if you don't have the room imo, depends on your SB plans ... not that I also play 2 SDT so B mana is a smaller problem, I'm also not particularly fond of basic lands


is there any ANT list i can assemble if my only duals are 2 U. Seas, a bayou and a volcanic island? i have leds, fetches and all that stuff, i don't have a grim tutor tho :(

anyone you build, it's a good start, GT is not obligatory, the card is obv. bad and expensive but when you get to a certain point of dedication you want to try out everything and then make qualified decision if like it or not, money should not be an issue or argument if you want to build and play to the best of your capabilities

[Ghiwo]

Reasons - Consistency, speed, you develop certain feeling when it is enough to go blind Pif - It feels a bit "Ad Nauseam" but you're managing odds in the process, I goldfished some situations a lot like Jona and I'm fairly aggresive with these at 2 ToA... depends on the MU obv. it's always managing the odds and finding the best spot to win.. btw. first time you get PiF DRSed away just to grab another one is sweet...


Really, do you gain speed? That would be awesome to me, being fast and consistent without relying on AN. What especially matters for me is going fast enough to steal the first game vs. Miracles before they land their lock, and the same against D&T.
So you are playing with 2 PIFs, 2 ToAs, and an Etw? Do you have a Top? I imagine you have no preordains and maybe just 6 discard spells or 3 lotus petals.

[Tvox]

Really, do you gain speed? That would be awesome to me, being fast and consistent without relying on AN. What especially matters for me is going fast enough to steal the first game vs. Miracles before they land their lock, and the same against D&T.
So you are playing with 2 PIFs, 2 ToAs, and an Etw? Do you have a Top? I imagine you have no preordains and maybe just 6 discard spells or 3 lotus petals.
I play 2 ToA, 2 PiF and 1 EtW along with 1 top, no preordains, 6 discard and 1 Rain of filth in place of 1 cabal ritual. I also include a single burning wish in my flex slots.

The list feels "nicer" to pilot than its AdN counterpart even though the games go about the same way typically. Double PiF obviously makes us more reliant on the grave, but it gives us more than our opponents most of the time.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Really, do you gain speed? That would be awesome to me, being fast and consistent without relying on AN. What especially matters for me is going fast enough to steal the first game vs. Miracles before they land their lock, and the same against D&T.
So you are playing with 2 PIFs, 2 ToAs, and an Etw? Do you have a Top? I imagine you have no preordains and maybe just 6 discard spells or 3 lotus petals.

3 Tendrils, 2 Past in Flames goldfishes slightly slower than 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Past in Flames, 1 Tendrils. In exchange, you are better against countermagic and discard without graveyard hate. Cutting one copy of Tendrils for Empty the Warrens makes you faster, but how reliable it is depends on how much removal your opponents bring. You can generally afford to be slower in game one, plus in most matchups Empty is better after boarding anyway. Not having Ad Nauseam makes your game one worse against Miracles though.

Also, never cut Lotus Petals.

[Togores]

I do like playing 4 lp when running empty. Free mana free storm.

[KevinH]

Yes, you can build pretty much most ANT lists off of those duals, just swap out the Tropical Island for a Fetch or a basic Island. You don't need to play a grim tutor.

[CabalTherapy]

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

[Lemnear]

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

I'm not sure I get you here, Robert. How should we compare the different approaches (Grim, double PIF+EtW, PIF+AN! 16 cantrips, Multi ToA, etc.) in regards to matchups? It feels like a discussion wouldn't end up nearly objective anyways especially of we take stuff like SDT or SB into consideration as well.

I would however apprechiate to see another Dimension to the imo shallow OP added in terms of builds. A month ago it still was unthinkable for most people to cut AN from the MB and I'm glad discussion is gaining steam again

[davelin]

For those who are playing with multiple PiFs and Empty maindeck, I'm assuming you're still running Decays and Xantid's in the SB. So what does your manabase look like?

[CabalTherapy]

I'm not sure I get you here, Robert. How should we compare the different approaches (Grim, double PIF+EtW, PIF+AN! 16 cantrips, Multi ToA, etc.) in regards to matchups? It feels like a discussion wouldn't end up nearly objective anyways especially of we take stuff like SDT or SB into consideration as well.

I would however apprechiate to see another Dimension to the imo shallow OP added in terms of builds. A month ago it still was unthinkable for most people to cut AN from the MB and I'm glad discussion is gaining steam again

You may be right. There are certainly some problems, however, I thought about something like:
2x PiF, 1x EtW, no Ad N: MU: Miracles: xy (percentage/random figure in a scale)
1y PiF, no EtW, 1 Ad N: MU: Miracles: xy (different percentage/figure)
Concerning Ad Nauseam, I wouldn't cut it in a comboheavy meta for example, but it is perfectly fine in a midrage, tempo meta. I can see it being to complicated or diluting, but another option would be listing MUs in which specific cards (EtW, PiF, AdN) are good/bad in the OP. It's some kind of idea to transfer the knowledge to the OP to prevent repetitions within the thread.

[nevilshute]

For those who are playing with multiple PiFs and Empty maindeck, I'm assuming you're still running Decays and Xantid's in the SB. So what does your manabase look like?

2x U. Sea
Volc
Badlands
Trop
Island
Swamp
4x delta
4x tarn

[Jonathan Alexander]

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

While I did not do that exactly, I did something kinda similar a while back. If I remember correctly, I first identified all possible ways to win a game and then took a look at which plan works best against a given deck both pre- and postboard. From that I derived a list that I thought was best assuming a certain saturation of decks one is going to face. This doesn't really help players who haven't reached a certain threshold or proficiency with the deck though, compared to giving a list first and then looking at matchups.
It is, however, something I was looking to revisit with new information available, plus on a broader scale.

[Lemnear]

It's some kind of idea to transfer the knowledge to the OP to prevent repetitions within the thread.

If I learned anything during the years in this forum, then it is, that detailed infos about a topic provided in an OP doesn't keep people from asking questions in regards to that certain topic over and over again

;)

[Sloshthedark]

Really, do you gain speed? That would be awesome to me, being fast and consistent without relying on AN. What especially matters for me is going fast enough to steal the first game vs. Miracles before they land their lock, and the same against D&T.
So you are playing with 2 PIFs, 2 ToAs, and an Etw? Do you have a Top? I imagine you have no preordains and maybe just 6 discard spells or 3 lotus petals.

since most T1 kills involve IT, LED, DR, PIF in hand then yes, I found AdN vs. Pif swap the same in terms of speed about equal, EtW is not a kill per se but costs 4 I definitely wont consider it a speed loss

list (http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j378/Sloshthedark/Storm/new/IMAG4059-801.jpg) still the same


I do like playing 4 lp when running empty. Free mana free storm.

I prefer to see relevant cards if I can, I think at 3 it's a good compromise


Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

thats hard to say if some sort of pool or survey would work, it comes down more to what particular player likes, how plays and what plays, I wouln't count on objectivity of the results, this is something a player as to find out himself I think, there is too many small things in the game to make it measurable

[Jonathan Alexander]

since most T1 kills involve IT, LED, DR, PIF in hand then yes, I found AdN vs. Pif swap the same in terms of speed about equal, EtW is not a kill per se but costs 4 I definitely wont consider it a speed loss


This is simply not true. First off, Empty does not kill opposing combo players. It simply doesn't. Also, goldfishing statistics, fifty games each, all on the play, with the following lists:


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize


T1: 0
T2: 8
T3: 17
T4: 10
T5+: 15
AVG: 3.64


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize


T1: 1
T2: 15
T3: 19
T4: 7
T5+: 8
AVG: 3.12


1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

T1: 2
T2: 20
T3: 11
T4: 6
T5+: 11
AVG: 3.08

Note that Ad Nauseams that fizzle are counted as T5+ kills, which I generally view as losses. Further, the Ad Nauseam lists are postboard versions of Grinding Station, so they're not even fully committed to the plan.

[wonderPreaux]

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.


I'm not sure I get you here, Robert. How should we compare the different approaches (Grim, double PIF+EtW, PIF+AN! 16 cantrips, Multi ToA, etc.) in regards to matchups? It feels like a discussion wouldn't end up nearly objective anyways especially of we take stuff like SDT or SB into consideration as well.

I would however apprechiate to see another Dimension to the imo shallow OP added in terms of builds. A month ago it still was unthinkable for most people to cut AN from the MB and I'm glad discussion is gaining steam again


While I did not do that exactly, I did something kinda similar a while back. If I remember correctly, I first identified all possible ways to win a game and then took a look at which plan works best against a given deck both pre- and postboard. From that I derived a list that I thought was best assuming a certain saturation of decks one is going to face. This doesn't really help players who haven't reached a certain threshold or proficiency with the deck though, compared to giving a list first and then looking at matchups.
It is, however, something I was looking to revisit with new information available, plus on a broader scale.

If there would be enough interest, I could put together a detailed chart like what is being described sometime within this week for the thread.

[sawatarix]

So today is another Big tournament here with around 300 players (more or less,let's see)

I'm taking my list from last week with slightly changes:

main: -1 Senseis Divining Top + 1 Preordain
+1 Volcanic Island
+1 Bayou
-1 tropical island
-1 badlands
(fetchlands change accordingly)

sideboard:

-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Tropical Island

There will be 9 rounds of swiss+top8, pretty excited :)

But before let me take my breakfast:

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/54a046586414c87cd069a66b9a8331ac.jpg

[meffeo]

Rice in Agony. Good luck Kai!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[sawatarix]

Well, after 8 Rounds i was out of Top8, finished 28th among 211 Players.

The 3rd Preordain was fine, the 2 Volcanic Island manabase was interesting but not 100% percent sure if it's actually better than orher configurations.

here some infos:

over 90% of kills where either Past in Flames Kills or Tutor chains.

I used Ad Nauseam 2 times and won both games (6 Life and 19 Life)
Yeah,6 Life :D

I played Empty the Warrens only once, mainly because Tendrils was gone.

Thinking about playing 4 therapy, 1 Thoughtseize and 1Duress maybe.

Still a decent run today, any input is welcome.
2 weeks left until GP Kyoto

[Togores]

Good run Kai.

Im right now in the mountain preparing for next weekend in rome the mkm series. And im testing diferent builds. Basicaly at goldfish.
You build from last week.
The 2 pif 2 grim version
And my ant + 2sdt deck.
What turns it kills and how does it more often.
Obiusly its a goldfish and preordain at that is better than sensei. And running 6 discard is better than 7.

I will report my results, because there are a lot of thought behind it.

I have lots of ideas on the 2 pif deck. Lets see if i can finish torrow my testing at night afyer a day of ski, jumps and spins.

[Togores]

Sorry for double post.
Kai you said you only used 1 time empty but you play 1+2 you never boarded them in? Or its because it was never good?

[CabalTherapy]

If there would be enough interest, I could put together a detailed chart like what is being described sometime within this week for the thread.

I am afraid it would demand too much time of one person. Additionally, you guys have showed me deficiency in my thinking about said chart. :rolleyes:


Well, after 8 Rounds i was out of Top8, finished 28th among 211 Players.


Nevertheless, a decent result

I have a nice story from the other side of the world. 7 people gathered today in our local store to play Legacy for 3 rounds. Wow.
The comical fact is that I have lost 3 matches and won 2 which got me the 2nd place. :laugh:
(0:2 BUG, Bye, 2:1 Burg)
We can't match with Japanese conditions.

[nevilshute]

Hey guys. A bit more video content today. Here's me playing a Legacy DE (Daily Event) on Modo. Rather strange but wonderful experience to show off the modo Legacy meta :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4CCpIfin3jlBGJ-0hBrK-q2

[owerbart]

2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

The standard manabase is 15 lands, the rest can be a fairly standard 45 spells: 16 accelerants, 6-7 protection, 4 Tutors, 13-16 cantrips, 3-5 storm cards/engines, 0-3 tech (I count Grim as tech, fwiw)

Hi. Thanks for the answer to you too.

Anywhere I can get a standard list with that manabase? I'm still reading about the deck and I'm not confident enough in building a list myself yet

[wonderPreaux]

Hi. Thanks for the answer to you too.

Anywhere I can get a standard list with that manabase? I'm still reading about the deck and I'm not confident enough in building a list myself yet

Knowing nothing about your meta, I guess a really generic list would look something like this:

2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

1 Preordain/Sensei's Divining Top/Grim Tutor

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

Obviously, a "generic" sideboard would be kind of strange to contribute because a sideboard does have to be tooled towards your meta, but you probably would end up running some number of Chain of Vapor, Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay.

@nevil very cool, I'll definitely give that a look. For the past couple days I've been trying to test SB Jaces against Miracles, and I could never get paired against one on MTGO! I guess you found them all for me, heh

[Togores]

Hey guys. A bit more video content today. Here's me playing a Legacy DE (Daily Event) on Modo. Rather strange but wonderful experience to show off the modo Legacy meta :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4CCpIfin3jlBGJ-0hBrK-q2


Just finished watching your videos, weird matchups. But liked how you destroy them all.

Can not say I would have played really diferent from your way. Some brainstorm, ponders and so.

Also, still dont understand why you side out duress vs miracles instead of therapy. But ok.

Also you have been liking city? and you sided it vs the golddiger deck? didnt herd it in the coments.


gg

[wonderPreaux]

Just finished watching your videos, weird matchups. But liked how you destroy them all.

Can not say I would have played really diferent from your way. Some brainstorm, ponders and so.

Also, still dont understand why you side out duress vs miracles instead of therapy. But ok.

Also you have been liking city? and you sided it vs the golddiger deck? didnt herd it in the coments.


gg

He keeps EtW in against Miracles, so I can see why he would also keep Therapies, minor synergies there. He also has the Swarms/City to cut out a lot of incidental stuff like Snare or w/e, so brute force Therapying for FoW alone can clear the way for green bombs

[Patrunkenphat7]

Duress is the much safer option against Miracles even if you have EtW because there is a lot of stuff like Counterbalance and RiP that you may want to discard early before you have a chance to see their hand with something else.

[wonderPreaux]

Duress is the much safer option against Miracles even if you have EtW because there is a lot of stuff like Counterbalance and RiP that you may want to discard early before you have a chance to see their hand with something else.

I think safety is debatable here. Duress always gets something, but Therapy clears all of something. If I have a hard read on a threat, or I just fold to it if its there, I would rather clear all the copies. If I miss, yeah I lose a card, but I'm safe from the threat anyway (since neither effects solves the issue of it floating on top, at least). Miracles also has SCM and/or Clique and halting those, especially the Clique lock, preemptively can be pretty valuable. Usually, though, I do go in with a 2-3:2-3 split of Therapy and Duress, but I can see why, given his bombs and EtW, he would lean on Therapies alone.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Six rounds of swiss, cut to top eight yesterday, first place.

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Bayou
1 Empty the Warrens

Empty apparently still sucks, but I had a slot. Probably gonna rotate a couple cards through that slot until I find something that doesn't suck. Everything else was great.

Swiss:

0-2 UB OmniTell
2-0 UWR Blade
2-1 SneakShow
2-0 Affinity
2-0 GRWB Punishing Maverick
2-0 UWR Dig

Top 8:
2-0 UWR Dig
2-1 UB Omnitell
2-0 Mono U OmniTell

Feel free to ask any questions about my list & matchups.

[Togores]

Not missing xantids?

how was rain of fith, im unsure abaout the card.

PD: your really lucky you have free slots in your sb hahahah

[Jonathan Alexander]

Rain mainly acts as the fifth Dark Ritual. This helps tremendously against players who go after your rituals. It also makes Ad Nauseam way better, enabling Threshold as early as turn two and giving you better flips because of cheaper rituals in the deck. You see how a lot of players are unwilling to cast Ad Nauseam with no landdrops open and no mana floating, but with the combination of Rain and Chrome Mox, this is rarely an issue.
Of course, there are also downsides; mainly that you're going all-in with it and that it doesn't add mana after Past in Flames, but I'm willing to accept that and I think it's better than the fourth Cabal Ritual overall.

Xantid Swarm, ironically, isn't the deck despite making Ad Nauseam a much better card to have against Show and Tell strategies. I currently prefer having the seventh discard spell and the third Flusterstorm over Swarm, as they're more versatile. The matchup against OmniShow might be better with Swarm than with my current approach, mainly because of Swarm actually doing something against Dig Through Time, but against Sneak & Show, Swarm tends to die to Pyroclasm, at least in my experience. It seems they always have two copies of that card in their deck and with all their filtering, they tend to end up with one. I prefer to let them have dead cards in their hands.
I just think that the best way to play those matchups is to use your interaction defensively, whereas Swarm is always about letting you go off.

With regards to the sideboard, I have to admit that I don't have a real plan against BUG Delver, but that's because I don't think there is a good plan that doesn't eat too many slots. Everything else I have already covered. Plus I'm basically running a 16 card sideboard anyway. I don't like the maindeck Top, it pretty much always hurts to draw it preboard, but there isn't anything else you could reasonably run maindeck. A case could be made for Bayou, but I already have the Mox.

[wonderPreaux]

Feel free to ask any questions about my list & matchups.

Out of curiosity, could you (or anyone, really) sell me on running Dread of Night? It always felt like a toss-up, but Massacre always seemed to edge it out because you can get away with running fewer.

I always thought Dread was an odd card to run, since it feels like youd need 2 copies to solve problems postboard, especially Canonist, and it doesn't touch Revoker, afaik. It keeps weird Vial+Karakas+Thalia or Mother + X scenarios from happening, as well as just cutting down the opponent's clock, (it hits Teeg, I suppose) but I'm wondering what makes it better than Massacre. Massacre, in addition to having use against Blade decks, can hit a lot of the same things Dread can effect, as well as hitting Revoker and you only need to hit the one Massacre. Though, Massacre does fit poorly with Ad Nauseam, which you are supporting more than usual lists, so I figure that may be the explanation?

The way I see it, it's something like this:

Massacre > Dread of Night
- Hits all relevant creatures other than Teeg.
- Relevance in Blade matchups.
- "One and done" answer to creatures.
- Storm count through cheap casting cost (I've had it matter).

Dread of Night > Massacre
- Hits all relevant creatures other than Revoker.
- Reduces opponents clock throughout game.
- Meshes better with Ad Nauseam
- Prevents Vial/Flash/Karakas issues.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the two?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Basically what you said. It lets you still play Ad Nauseam, you can play it early to take less/no damage and it wins against Vial. It is true, however, that it's worse against blue Stoneforge decks, but in those matchups I tend to only board either Abrupt Decay or Chain of Vapor (if they don't have red). Against UWR Delver, I board out Ad Nauseam, so Massacre would actually be good (and I have run one copy in the past just because of that matchup). Against Esper Stoneblade/Deathblade, I keep in Ad Nauseam though, so I wouldn't want to run Massacre.
Being able to kill Gaddock Teeg is also a factor, at least where I play locally. That's basically for free.
Pretty much all your reasoning is correct and you have to decide for your own local metagame or the metagame you expect at a bigger event which of these points are more likely to matter.
One thing you left out is that Dread of Night doesn't kill your own creatures, which becomes relevant for people running Empty the Warrens.

[Togores]

When I play vs deathblade and desth and taxes I board in 2 masaacre and didnt side out nauseam. Just because if you hit massacre you can swipe the board and win next turn.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Out of curiosity, could you (or anyone, really) sell me on running Dread of Night? It always felt like a toss-up, but Massacre always seemed to edge it out because you can get away with running fewer.

I always thought Dread was an odd card to run, since it feels like youd need 2 copies to solve problems postboard, especially Canonist, and it doesn't touch Revoker, afaik. It keeps weird Vial+Karakas+Thalia or Mother + X scenarios from happening, as well as just cutting down the opponent's clock, (it hits Teeg, I suppose) but I'm wondering what makes it better than Massacre. Massacre, in addition to having use against Blade decks, can hit a lot of the same things Dread can effect, as well as hitting Revoker and you only need to hit the one Massacre. Though, Massacre does fit poorly with Ad Nauseam, which you are supporting more than usual lists, so I figure that may be the explanation?

The way I see it, it's something like this:

Massacre > Dread of Night
- Hits all relevant creatures other than Teeg.
- Relevance in Blade matchups.
- "One and done" answer to creatures.
- Storm count through cheap casting cost (I've had it matter).

Dread of Night > Massacre
- Hits all relevant creatures other than Revoker.
- Reduces opponents clock throughout game.
- Meshes better with Ad Nauseam
- Prevents Vial/Flash/Karakas issues.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the two?

I just want to point out Dread of Night also does not hit Canonist which is a common SB card in D+T. Dread of Night is way too narrow for my liking. Massacre is also an important tool for Meddling Mage UWR and Esper decks, and Dread of Night seems to be specifically for the card Thalia.

[Lemnear]

I just want to point out Dread of Night also does not hit Canonist which is a common SB card in D+T. Dread of Night is way too narrow for my liking. Massacre is also an important tool for Meddling Mage UWR and Esper decks, and Dread of Night seems to be specifically for the card Thalia.

It takes down Mother of Runes and Thalia. That's about it. You still run into problems against Meddling Mage, SFM, Canonist, Revoker and shit. DoN was ok as long as the deck had to care much about it's cmc related to Ad Nauseam. If you pass on the 5 mana instant, I don't see how D&T should stand a chance against a postboard config. of 3 Massacres, 2 CoV and 2 PIF for clearing the board

[wonderPreaux]

Six rounds of swiss, cut to top eight yesterday, first place.

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

Feel free to ask any questions about my list & matchups.

Jona, out of curiosity, have you had a problem with inconsistent draws with your main deck? Since you aren't running any additional Tutors or Preordains, and have potential poor draws like Chrome Mox and the 2nd ToA, do you ever have problems with not finding the right cards, or getting awkward draws with the Mox and such? Did you miss the 4th Cabal Ritual at all?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Well, the worst card to draw is probably Chrome Mox, but this deck has a tendency to end up with useless cards during the combo turn anyway - how often do you discard nothing to your LED? In some matchups, Mox is a card I actively want to draw, for example in combo mirrors, where mana is much more important than the amount of cards in your hand.
Drawing Tendrils is only bad if you don't play for it. For Tendrils to become a bad draw, you have to draw it at a point where you have already traded resources with your opponent and don't have Past in Flames to make use of it. The second Tendrils makes it more likely for it to end up in your hand, thus making playing for it more likely to be successful.
Drawing both copies is worse without the fourth Cabal Ritual in the deck, I'll give you that. Not running it is something I'm currently trying out; I'm not convinced it's right just yet.
Regarding additional cantrips, I have always been playing either nine or ten plus Probes. Running too many will dilute the deck and you will end up at a point where you're just an inferior version of Show and Tell strategies. There's a reason people aren't running the full 12 cantrips anymore, although progress on this deck seems to be very slow overall. However, I do believe that 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 2 Preordain is reasonable in 2 Past in Flames builds. What I'm currently playing is much more aggressive, at least preboard, so I don't want to do that. After boarding, I tend to play a much longer game in several matchups, so that's what the second Top is there for.

[Zombie]

Sideboard:
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Bayou
1 Empty the Warrens

Empty apparently still sucks, but I had a slot. Probably gonna rotate a couple cards through that slot until I find something that doesn't suck. Everything else was great.


I don't like the maindeck Top. A case could be made for Bayou, but I already have the Mox.

Isn't the logical outcome of these to move the Top to the board and put a Preordain or the fourth Cabal Rit back maindeck?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I have not played enough without the fourth Cabal Ritual to be sure, but yeah, running that again and putting both Tops in the board is the obvious configuration. It might actually be worse than Top though, and this way I might end up with a card that's more valuable than the ninth Ritual. In any case, I don't think either of these cards is something I actually want in the maindeck. Top has more potential upside for sure, but it doesn't mesh well with the aggressive game I'm generally playing preboard.
I hope to have at least Top vs. Cabal Ritual solved by the end of the week, then I can work out the last sideboard slot. I definitely have some ideas for that. Of course, it would be ideal to find something I want maindeck, but I don't think that card exists.

[Zombie]

Go Slosh and play Bolt?

[wonderPreaux]

I have not played enough without the fourth Cabal Ritual to be sure, but yeah, running that again and putting both Tops in the board is the obvious configuration. It might actually be worse than Top though, and this way I might end up with a card that's more valuable than the ninth Ritual. In any case, I don't think either of these cards is something I actually want in the maindeck. Top has more potential upside for sure, but it doesn't mesh well with the aggressive game I'm generally playing preboard.
I hope to have at least Top vs. Cabal Ritual solved by the end of the week, then I can work out the last sideboard slot. I definitely have some ideas for that. Of course, it would be ideal to find something I want maindeck, but I don't think that card exists.

I was going to go ahead and suggest a singleton Preordain over the top as well (it does seems to be at odds with Chrome Mox), but someone already mentioned that. How is your Miracles matchup with just the Tops and removal?

[JanoschEausH]

It takes down Mother of Runes and Thalia. That's about it. You still run into problems against Meddling Mage, SFM, Canonist, Revoker and shit. DoN was ok as long as the deck had to care much about it's cmc related to Ad Nauseam. If you pass on the 5 mana instant, I don't see how D&T should stand a chance against a postboard config. of 3 Massacres, 2 CoV and 2 PIF for clearing the board

Well, have fun with your Massacres against a DnT opponent who avoids playing plains. There is a reason why the number of plains is decreasing in todays DnT lists. The inclusion of Flagstones of Trokair is only the latest example. Massacre is also dead against Teeg. I prefer DoN still. If you can get 2 out, you can solve lots oft problems.

[nevilshute]

Well, have fun with your Massacres against a DnT opponent who avoids playing plains. There is a reason why the number of plains is decreasing in todays DnT lists. The inclusion of Flagstones of Trokair is only the latest example. Massacre is also dead against Teeg. I prefer DoN still. If you can get 2 out, you can solve lots oft problems.

Being both an ANT and D&T player I feel that you cannot realiably play around Massacre. I also disagree with your "the number of plains is decreasing in todays DnT lists" remark. People have gone up and down for years on the amount of plains. Flagstones is a nice replacement right up until you run into Blood Moon. And really, making yourself vulnerable to Blood Moons just to play around a sideboard card doesn't seem worth it to me.

As the D&T player there are times where you absolutely can play around Massacre, but you are kind of at the mercy of the top of your deck and, I mean, I'd never mulligan a hand that promises turn 2 Thalia, Canonist or the likes but where my only white source is a plains. And those hands are going to be there some number of the time. And then you are open to Massacre.

I think if you want to go the DoN route then you need at least three, probably four. Even then you can lose to a revoker beating you down with a SoFaI. That's the thing about all of these cards, they aren't perfect solutions. I often find myself trying out different hate cards from time to time.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I was going to go ahead and suggest a singleton Preordain over the top as well (it does seems to be at odds with Chrome Mox), but someone already mentioned that. How is your Miracles matchup with just the Tops and removal?

The difference between Top and Preordain is only marginal, I'd rather find a card that really does something.
The Miracles matchup is awesome. Now that I have Flusterstorms, I can actually play Tops against them. There really isn't much they can do.

Regarding Dread of Night vs. Massacre, it comes down to how you want to play the matchup against Death & Taxes. Dread of Night lets you reasonably run Ad Nauseam, which is a very powerful option. Being able to kill them before they can even do anything meaningful comes up a lot. I like that. Trying to play a long game against the Wasteland + Rishadan Port deck, not so much. Now, If my list wasn't designed to support Ad Nauseam as well as it does, that would be another story. Also, as I have already said, people are still playing Maverick locally, so the inability to do anything against Gaddock Teeg does come up.
Alas, we have all the arguments for both cards and it's up to you to decide which of these cards works better with your list.

[Bahra]

Flagstones is a nice replacement right up until you run into Blood Moon.

The deck doesn't care enough about Blood Moon even if you are running 4 Flagstones, and if you're boarding Cataclysm, including 4x Flagstones in your main deck is an absolute no brainer.

I have found that I, as a D&T player, can very often play around massacre when I'm facing ANT. Maybe 70-80% of the time actually. Between 3 Karakas, 4x Flagstones and 4x Æther vials you're not very dependent on your Basic Plains in this match up and you can easily hold them back.

[Noxwalrus]

Pyroclasm? 2 mana is worse than 0-1 mana, but it hits everything that DoN or Massacre does except mom+thalia. For those running badlands and 2 PiF/tendrils builds it seems like a good option. I really like a diversification of answers given that nothing hits absolutely everything. Right now I have 1-2 pyroclasm, 1 massacre, and 0-1 DoN.

On a somewhat related note regarding sb tech, has anyone tried running Divert to combat hymns/discard from BUG or other discard matchups? And with the resurgence of wasteland after the ban of TC I've been considering 1 teferi's response in my sb flex slot. Vs BUG/RUG it protects our mana base and can recover some cards lost to discard. Vs something like DnT it seems kinda meh, but more cards is always helpful and an instant speed counter to a port lock seems playable. Also, how useful have you guys found Rebuild for larger tournaments? My meta doesn't need it, but playing 8+ rounds it seems like a bad idea to just hope you never see MUD.

[Narcind]

Not sure I would want to have a card in my sideboard just vs wasteland, seems like a bit of a wasted spot. If you're really concerned about wasteland, just run a third basic and you should be more than fine.

[wonderPreaux]

The difference between Top and Preordain is only marginal, I'd rather find a card that really does something.
The Miracles matchup is awesome. Now that I have Flusterstorms, I can actually play Tops against them. There really isn't much they can do.

So do you also bring in Flusterstorms to go after their floating counters/Entreats? What does your boarding plan tend to look like?

[Megadeus]

Pyroclasm? 2 mana is worse than 0-1 mana, but it hits everything that DoN or Massacre does except mom+thalia. For those running badlands and 2 PiF/tendrils builds it seems like a good option. I really like a diversification of answers given that nothing hits absolutely everything. Right now I have 1-2 pyroclasm, 1 massacre, and 0-1 DoN.

On a somewhat related note regarding sb tech, has anyone tried running Divert to combat hymns/discard from BUG or other discard matchups? And with the resurgence of wasteland after the ban of TC I've been considering 1 teferi's response in my sb flex slot. Vs BUG/RUG it protects our mana base and can recover some cards lost to discard. Vs something like DnT it seems kinda meh, but more cards is always helpful and an instant speed counter to a port lock seems playable. Also, how useful have you guys found Rebuild for larger tournaments? My meta doesn't need it, but playing 8+ rounds it seems like a bad idea to just hope you never see MUD.

I actually really liked Bolts/Pyroclasm in the treasure cruise meta. Bolt was great against the URW deck because you could either use it on a meddling mage, or if they didn't have that just kill their delver and watch them struggle to find a clock. Pyro was a nice out to a Gaddock too. Have a super stacked hand with Pif, tutor for pyroclasm to kill teeg, go off next turn by flashing back pif. Stuff like that. I think though that being 3 mana under a Thalia is what makes me kind of meh about the card.

[Noxwalrus]

Not sure I would want to have a card in my sideboard just vs wasteland, seems like a bit of a wasted spot. If you're really concerned about wasteland, just run a third basic and you should be more than fine.

Well it's not so much being afraid of wasteland and more that it seems like a really good opportunity to yell "got ya!" while drawing a bunch of cards.


I actually really liked Bolts/Pyroclasm in the treasure cruise meta. Bolt was great against the URW deck because you could either use it on a meddling mage, or if they didn't have that just kill their delver and watch them struggle to find a clock. Pyro was a nice out to a Gaddock too. Have a super stacked hand with Pif, tutor for pyroclasm to kill teeg, go off next turn by flashing back pif. Stuff like that. I think though that being 3 mana under a Thalia is what makes me kind of meh about the card.

Yeah 3 mana cause of thalia sucks, but if you can never cast your massacre that's even worse. Also can come in against meddling mages or even elves if you feel more comfortable as the control role. Pyroclasm was definitely better during TC/pyromancer days.

[Lemnear]

Pyroclasm was definitely better during TC/pyromancer days.

...which was mainly the case because of the absence of Wasteland, which did not immediately punish you for fetching your only red Source in the deck (in most cases)

[Megadeus]

...which was mainly the case because of the absence of Wasteland, which did not immediately punish you for fetching your only red Source in the deck (in most cases)

Hence why I played Badlands anyway.

But against Elves I dont generally board in sweepers... I generally have found I'd rather just try to be faster by boarding out my 2nd PiF and bringing in Ad Nauseam. I guess some bring in Teeg in which case you maybe bring something in... But discard is still pretty fine against them in that situation.

[Jonathan Alexander]

So do you also bring in Flusterstorms to go after their floating counters/Entreats? What does your boarding plan tend to look like?

-1 Chrome Mox
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Cabal Ritual / Rain of Filth
-1 Swamp
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Infernal Tutor

+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Bayou

Not sure on Cabal Ritual vs. Rain; I think Rain is worse after boarding as it doesn't synergise with endstep Ad Nauseam.

[Holden1669]

Hey guys. A bit more video content today. Here's me playing a Legacy DE (Daily Event) on Modo. Rather strange but wonderful experience to show off the modo Legacy meta :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4CCpIfin3jlBGJ-0hBrK-q2

I said this before but I'm really enjoying your videos. You walk through your plays clearly and explain your thought processes very well. Please keep them going!

[owerbart]

Knowing nothing about your meta, I guess a really generic list would look something like this:

2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

1 Preordain/Sensei's Divining Top/Grim Tutor

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

Obviously, a "generic" sideboard would be kind of strange to contribute because a sideboard does have to be tooled towards your meta, but you probably would end up running some number of Chain of Vapor, Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay.

@nevil very cool, I'll definitely give that a look. For the past couple days I've been trying to test SB Jaces against Miracles, and I could never get paired against one on MTGO! I guess you found them all for me, heh

Thanks for the help man. I'll be testing that list soon to start getting experience with this deck. I also checked your stream, really nice

[wonderPreaux]

-1 Chrome Mox
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Cabal Ritual / Rain of Filth
-1 Swamp
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Infernal Tutor

+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Bayou

Not sure on Cabal Ritual vs. Rain; I think Rain is worse after boarding as it doesn't synergise with endstep Ad Nauseam.

That's a very interesting take on Miracles, reminds me of Togores' heavy green board with 4 Decay, 2 Grip, 3 total Top and, iirc, 2 total ToA.

I gather you use your natural Storm for wins, with Ad Nauseam and PiF acting as bombs, and Flusterstorm provides support by hitting counters or Entreats. I'm curious as to how you arrived at a 3:1 split of Decay vs. Grip and if you think 2 Tops is enough or if a third might have value. It seems the Flusterstorms are better when you can hide yours too, as that somewhat facilitates a standard Tutor+LED line and Top protects all this from Clique, to an extent.

One thing I have to wonder is if you wouldn't be better off with some sort of 2:1 split of Fluster/Extirpate, perhaps? Extirpate can break a floating counter and be played before a standard Tutor+LED all-in, and has some use against combo as well. Though, I'd probably keep all the Probes when playing Extirpate, so you know when to move in and hit their hand as well as shuffling their deck.

[KevinH]

That's a very interesting take on Miracles, reminds me of Togores' heavy green board with 4 Decay, 2 Grip, 3 total Top and, iirc, 2 total ToA.

I gather you use your natural Storm for wins, with Ad Nauseam and PiF acting as bombs, and Flusterstorm provides support by hitting counters or Entreats. I'm curious as to how you arrived at a 3:1 split of Decay vs. Grip and if you think 2 Tops is enough or if a third might have value. It seems the Flusterstorms are better when you can hide yours too, as that somewhat facilitates a standard Tutor+LED line and Top protects all this from Clique, to an extent.

One thing I have to wonder is if you wouldn't be better off with some sort of 2:1 split of Fluster/Extirpate, perhaps? Extirpate can break a floating counter and be played before a standard Tutor+LED all-in, and has some use against combo as well. Though, I'd probably keep all the Probes when playing Extirpate, so you know when to move in and hit their hand as well as shuffling their deck.

I think it might be going a bit too deep boarding in Extirpate against Miracles...

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think you guys are getting way too cute with cards like Extirpate and Flusterstorm against Miracles. Flusterstorm doesn't hit half the cards you care about, and when you are going off with Infernal you need to be helbent... That card just seems terrible. Extirpate also doesn't do anything in most situations.

Our matchup against Miracles is fine if you run no more than 3 Decay, some number of Xantids to help out with Top floating counters and all their soft counters and red blasts, and then a couple discard spells to fill out your disruption. Anything more than that really dilutes the deck and can put you in a lot of awkward situations.

[wonderPreaux]

I think you guys are getting way too cute with cards like Extirpate and Flusterstorm against Miracles. Flusterstorm doesn't hit half the cards you care about, and when you are going off with Infernal you need to be helbent... That card just seems terrible. Extirpate also doesn't do anything in most situations.
Given a plan of building up to natural Tendrils, you really only lose to floating Flusterstorm or an Entreat, so you put yourself in a position where your own Flusterstorm hits all the cards you care about. Jona's plan cuts half the Tutors and LEDs anyway. As for Extirpate, it serves to break a floating Top/SCM, it can also stop Entreat by responding to the End Step flipping Top. The fact that you can go Decay > Extirpate on the opponent's End Step and then move in with a Tutor play does support more standard lines as well. Extirpate just seems to me to be a decent alternative to something like Grip or Flusterstorm.

[KevinH]

You can always find situations where certain cards will be good, but I really don't think that forcing your opponent to shuffle their deck so they don't get a miracle is a particularly good use of a card. I also don't see how Extirpate is better than Surgical Extraction, the split second seems almost completely irrelevant.

To be fair, I also don't think Flusterstorm is super strong vs. Miracles, as it doesn't do anything against a lot of the cards that you want to counter, but Jona has much more experience than I do with the card/matchup.

Edit-I see that Flusterstorm would be decent if your plan is to go "Grinding" against Miracles, but I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole if you're trying to go the traditional route.

I think that the Grinding method is pretty much completely off the radar in the US, I'm definitely going to test it out. It could catch a ton of people off guard.

[wonderPreaux]

You can always find situations where certain cards will be good, but I really don't think that forcing your opponent to shuffle their deck so they don't get a miracle is a particularly good use of a card. I also don't see how Extirpate is better than Surgical Extraction, the split second seems almost completely irrelevant.
Split Second means it can't be countered or responded to, I feel that's pretty relevant. Ideally, you use Extirpate to not only shuffle the deck to deny a floating counter or miracle, but you also use it to strip a used counter and thus deny them any copies built up in their hand. Split Second means the opponent can't flip a different Top, Brainstorm in response, or otherwise foil your Extirpate. In the category of "hurts top" i feel its about as worthwhile as Grip or Fluster.


To be fair, I also don't think Flusterstorm is super strong vs. Miracles, as it doesn't do anything against a lot of the cards that you want to counter, but Jona has much more experience than I do with the card/matchup.

Edit-I see that Flusterstorm would be decent if your plan is to go "Grinding" against Miracles, but I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole if you're trying to go the traditional route.

I think that the Grinding method is pretty much completely off the radar in the US, I'm definitely going to test it out. It could catch a ton of people off guard.
I was quoting Jona's posts in all my replies, but I'm sorry if I was unclear. With respect to the value of Fluster/Extirapte/etc., I am talking about natural storm sequences.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I gather you use your natural Storm for wins, with Ad Nauseam and PiF acting as bombs, and Flusterstorm provides support by hitting counters or Entreats. I'm curious as to how you arrived at a 3:1 split of Decay vs. Grip and if you think 2 Tops is enough or if a third might have value. It seems the Flusterstorms are better when you can hide yours too, as that somewhat facilitates a standard Tutor+LED line and Top protects all this from Clique, to an extent.
Yes, that's basically how I play the matchup. A couple pages earlier I mentioned how I didn't like casting Top against Miracles when Grinding, despite the fact that it's insane when it does resolve. Now, with Flusterstorm, I can more reasonably force them through. I am playing it conservatively with the Tops, seeing as I only have two, but they are horrible in multiples. Floating Flusterstorm is only good against opposing combo decks. Trying to enable Infernal Tutor that way doesn't really work - they will just counter the spell you get off Infernal.


One thing I have to wonder is if you wouldn't be better off with some sort of 2:1 split of Fluster/Extirpate, perhaps? Extirpate can break a floating counter and be played before a standard Tutor+LED all-in, and has some use against combo as well. Though, I'd probably keep all the Probes when playing Extirpate, so you know when to move in and hit their hand as well as shuffling their deck.


Against blue decks, Extirpate is too cute, I tried that way back in 2011. It's really only a glorified, but worse, Cabal Therapy. I might want to have one copy for combo matchups regardless, although maybe Slaughter Games is better there. Man, I wanna Slaughter Games people.

[wonderPreaux]

Yes, that's basically how I play the matchup. A couple pages earlier I mentioned how I didn't like casting Top against Miracles when Grinding, despite the fact that it's insane when it does resolve. Now, with Flusterstorm, I can more reasonably force them through. I am playing it conservatively with the Tops, seeing as I only have two, but they are horrible in multiples. Floating Flusterstorm is only good against opposing combo decks. Trying to enable Infernal Tutor that way doesn't really work - they will just counter the spell you get off Infernal.
I was thinking your Tutor would be finding the Tendrils at that point, and thus a floating Fluster beats anything except another Fluster, but that is marginal. So would you do something like play a t2 Top with Fluster backup, for instance? or would you wait for an 8 vs 7 situation so that you might be able to leverage it even farther to a mini tendrils or something?

[KevinH]

I feel like if your opponent is wasting a counterspell on Surgical Extraction, you're on the winning side of that trade.

[Togores]

I do think fluster storm is bad vs miracckes. Its almost impossible ti hit his flusterstorm when he has a lot of lands and also you play the grind game in a long game. That means he will have mana.
Usualy vs miracles you loose vs jace, scm or clicke. They usualy sb entreat out. Or at least should.

ALSO, who will be in Rome this weekend for the 1sr mkm series? I will be playig cool card in modern, Legacy and vintage. So feel free to hit me up and brainsSTORM (: (just put rodrigo togores in google to see how I look).

Wish me luck storming!
;D

[Jonathan Alexander]

Is there any reason for them to float anything but Flusterstorm?

Turn two Top depends on what my hand looks like. It's likely though. If they're tapped out and I can cast Top + Flusterstorm, I will almost always do that, even off Petal.
But overall, there's too many variables in that matchup to make generalisations.

Edit: How many cards are Miracles players supposed to board out against us to not leave in Entreat? 20?

Edit 2:



I'm curious as to how you arrived at a 3:1 split of Decay vs. Grip.

Just realised I didn't answer this. Basically, Krosan Grip hits Leyline of Sanctity. This way, I can board one against Sneak & Show. Other upsides include hitting Top and dodging Extraction on Abrupt Decay, neither of which would be enough to justify it.

[Togores]

Also from a stock list of miracles I would board (expecting anything from ant opponent)
-2 swords
-4 terminus
-3rs jace
-2 entreat
(Still 1 council in main)

For
2 explosives
2 flusterstorm
2 vendilion
2 rest in pieces
1 reb

More or less it would be so.
Also depends on the list but I used a more or less stock aproach.

[wonderPreaux]

Just realised I didn't answer this. Basically, Krosan Grip hits Leyline of Sanctity. This way, I can board one against Sneak & Show. Other upsides include hitting Top and dodging Extraction on Abrupt Decay, neither of which would be enough to justify it.

Against Sneak and Show, do you choose Grip over Chain of Vapors because Grip won't get countered? I saw you don't play Swarm, but having to wait until you find that particular one-of seems dangerous. Do you ever get to catch someone by gripping their Omniscience or something, now that fewer builds play Enter the Infinite?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Yes, when I play Swarm, I tend to board Chain instead. Also, I'm not entirely sure about boarding Empty in addition to that, I haven't tested that enough.
Grip on Omniscience doesn't come up as I don't board it against OmniTell.

[sawatarix]

I remember my miracle opponent last week at round 8 who played a meddling mage on game 2 naming abrupt decay followed by Balance+Top the next turn.

#KickInTheAss

[Patrunkenphat7]

For people wanting to play Exirpate to reset Top, why aren't you just playing Swarm?

[wonderPreaux]

For people wanting to play Exirpate to reset Top, why aren't you just playing Swarm?

Miracles doesn't automatically board out all it's creature removal, and I'd rather have them sit with dead cards. One thing you can do, though, is side into heavy Storm grinding for game 2, and then game 3 side the Swarms in since they would then be expecting natural spell chains not commitment to creatures.

[KevinH]

Miracles doesn't automatically board out all it's creature removal, and I'd rather have them sit with dead cards. One thing you can do, though, is side into heavy Storm grinding for game 2, and then game 3 side the Swarms in since they would then be expecting natural spell chains not commitment to creatures.

You say you'd rather have them sit with dead cards, and yet here you are trying to play Extirpate...seems like faulty logic

[Sloshthedark]

ALSO, who will be in Rome this weekend for the 1sr mkm series?

;D

Me...

I don'thave time to write, preparing for Rome and actual life happening, but I'll try to adress latest stuff shortly...


If you're playing Extirpate to shuffle opps deck, play a different game please... that application can be relevant but purpose of Extirpate against Miracles is Snapcaster Mage, it's interaction with Flusterstorm and to break very long games ... which is obv very off if you're playing XS already... the difference between SE and Extripate is it's meant for different matches, SE is only better vs. Dredge and early Storm games, Extirpate has much more utility against U combo and hard control... and even after all that I play... 1

regarding EtA - (don't tell them) in Ponder list boarding out both is a criminal mistake on their part as a super long game is not a losing position for them threating an instakill

Krosan Grip/AD split - KG can be marginaly better vs. Miracles hitting SDT, as AD is not needed in X vs. UWR/hatebears and other stuff, x-1/1 split should have some benefits..

Flusterstorm vs. Miracles - I can't see why to do that, they utilize the card better

DoN vs. Massacre - that is a serious problem, D+T is wrecked by 1st and can play around 2nd, 2nd wrecks UWR and is good vs. Deathblade, both is bad vs. Teeg ... no real solution (I even tried Sulfur Elemental), that's why I largely prefer to face U decks rather than creature decks, "bye" matches vs g/w decks is myth of 2010, easier to metagame localy but what to play in anymous tournament...

Jona goldfishes - I think there is a major problem of how you/me percieve speed - for me it indicates the turn when you CAN "do your thing" unopposed, if playing aggresively, keeping every semi-rational hand, always 7 cards, T1-T5+... it does not matter if you Ad Nauseam off 4 LP and a land or with 6 mana floating, your way you'd have to test every Ad Nauseam in every goldfish several times to find out .... win = T5 loss is misleading if you're not trying to manage your odds (let's say T1 Duress into T2 better Ad Nauseam, which you'd likely do anyway IRL) ... therefore your speed indication methodology makes the decks slower and is incomparable for me as there is no "attempt but failed" ratio... for EtW I find reasonable expectation EtW that race T2 SFM ... detailed analysis of every mode for killing and used cards is impossible for me, would require x00 of goldfishes for cardchanges to really tell a thing reliably but... I've done a some goldfishing sets but I need finish 1 for a list, I'll try to edit in the evening if I'll make it

EDIT - I did not... partial results - missing the other set 2 for standard list

my list (2pif, 2 Toa, 2SDT, EtW, 3LP 61 cards) vs. etalon list (2 preordain, 1GT, AdN, 4LP60 cards), first set - goldfish by direct comparison (you shuffle your deck, lay it out and goldfish every set of connecting 7 cards as layed out, pulling up used cards, shuffle is continuation in the line using random number generator counting the cards not used as a start point, reaching a kill you move your 1 card in your starting position, getting slightly new 7) = 60 goldfishes - not perfect method but most precise I can think of comparing 2 builds as it face very same situations therefore the results are quite similar (but around 3+ sets should make this great option imo) other set is classic 1on1 vs pillow 50 round deathmatch unfortunately I'm unable to finish it in time

cumulative win%
list 1 60 games
T1 13,33% (5EtW)
T2 38,33% (3EtW)
T3 71,67%
T4 88,33%
T5 100,00%
avg 2,883
avg max T4 2,604

list 2 60 games
T1 15,00% (6 Adn deathrate 66%)
T2 36,67% (3 Adn deathrate 33%)
T3 68,33% (5 Adn deathrate 40%)
T4 88,33%
T5 100,00%
avg 2,90
avg max T4 2,623

set 2

list 1 48 games
T1 4,17%
T2 45,83%
T3 70,83%
T4 87,50%
T5 100,00%

avg 2,917
avg max T4 2,619

btw. looking for hot tech vs. UB Omnitell as Notion Thief doesn't work well with DiG and I try not to play XS... any ideas?

[Lemnear]

btw. looking for hot tech vs. UB Omnitell as Notion Thief doesn't work well with DiG and I try not to play XS... any ideas?

Slaughter Games

[mishima_kazuya]

DoN vs. Massacre - that is a serious problem, D+T is wrecked by 1st and can play around 2nd, 2nd wrecks UWR and is good vs. Deathblade, both is bad vs. Teeg ... no real solution (I even tried Sulfur Elemental), that's why I largely prefer to face U decks rather than creature decks, "bye" matches vs g/w decks is myth of 2010, easier to metagame localy but what to play in anymous tournament...


That's how I feel as well. Disruptive cards that prevent me from chaining cantrips and also double up as clocks are a lot worse than playing against countermagic.

Lately, I have found myself losing lots of close games to non-blue decks as I find myself making more mistakes when my opponents are dropping down Null Rods and Thalias, while threatening quick lethal damage that forces me to consider comboing out earlier.
My win percentage against Miracles in both online and paper has been very good, almost to the point where I would rather sit down opposite from Miracles than Burn.

[Jonathan Alexander]

You know, there's a reason I'm running a configuration that fully supports Ad Nauseam. Consistently killing people on turn two is a good way to answer multiple permanents.

[Lemnear]

You know, there's a reason I'm running a configuration that fully supports Ad Nauseam. Consistently killing people on turn two is a good way to answer multiple permanents.

Are we talking about the same decklist which contained many more 4cc cards than the standard lists? "Consistently killing people on turn two" is a blatant hyperbole for ANT you can bring up in casual threads, but not here. Most people here have an idea about ANTs turn-2-kill-ratio, which I would sure not describe as "consistently"

[Megadeus]

If bears are an issue for you, seriously. Try lightning bolt/pyroclasm

[Jonathan Alexander]

Are we talking about the same decklist which contained many more 4cc cards than the standard lists? "Consistently killing people on turn two" is a blatant hyperbole for ANT you can bring up in casual threads, but not here. Most people here have an idea about ANTs turn-2-kill-ratio, which I would sure not describe as "consistently"

I actually had my 2 Ad Nauseam list in mind, which is in fact pretty consistent with turn two kills.

Edit: Maybe we have different ideas of "pretty consistent". Either way, I meant roughly 50%, which is definitly enough, seeing as you're not auto-dead if you don't kill them by turn two..

[sawatarix]

We don't need specific cards against Omnitell because it's already a good matchup for us.
They have to sideboard a lot but we can exchange discard spells with swarms and 1 chain of vapor.

Maybe you remember that i also toyed around with 2 Ad Nauseams last year for blazing fast kills. While having Ad Nauseam in your hand is a good thing because it allows you to go off with few ressources (I call it the Show and Tell in Storm) it is not always easy to get 5 mana during our early turns.
Cabal Rituals and Lotus Petals produce only +1 mana on turn 1-2 so we rely on dark ritual. Of course we can brainstorm and put Ad Nauseam on top of our libary and then use LED mana to play it but the beauty of Ad Nauseam is to go off without going all in when casting it from our hand.
So Rain of Filth (5th cark titual) make a lot of sense here. I can almost imagine to include a second rain of filth in such an aggressive build but this means that we have to cut preordains which makes our deck more inconsistent.
As a conclusion, if you play 2 Ad Nauseam+ additional fast mana over preordains we get more turn 1-2 kills but we also loose more games because of worse topdecks.

[DarkJester]

We don't need specific cards against Omnitell because it's already a good matchup for us.
They have to sideboard a lot but we can exchange discard spells with swarms and 1 chain of vapor.

Maybe you remember that i also toyed around with 2 Ad Nauseams last year for blazing fast kills. While having Ad Nauseam in your hand is a good thing because it allows you to go off with few ressources (I call it the Show and Tell in Storm) it is not always easy to get 5 mana during our early turns.
Cabal Rituals and Lotus Petals produce only +1 mana on turn 1-2 so we rely on dark ritual. Of course we can brainstorm and put Ad Nauseam on top of our libary and then use LED mana to play it but the beauty of Ad Nauseam is to go off without going all in when casting it from our hand.
So Rain of Filth (5th cark titual) make a lot of sense here. I can almost imagine to include a second rain of filth in such an aggressive build but this means that we have to cut preordains which makes our deck more inconsistent.
As a conclusion, if you play 2 Ad Nauseam+ additional fast mana over preordains we get more turn 1-2 kills but we also loose more games because of worse topdecks.

I don't think Rain of Filth produces that much Mana on turn 1 or 2. ^^

[Lemnear]

I don't think Rain of Filth produces that much Mana on turn 1 or 2. ^^

I guess it was in regards to turbo T.hold, but 7 cards in your grave turn 2 for Cabal Ritual is still a massive requirement. However, that still ignores the odds of having 5/7 mana + AN or IT + hellbent by turn two which remains the core of the Problem on top of the High cmc to reveal to AN (I mean: second AN, PIFs, ToAs) and lack of IMS'.

It's a totally unnecessary struggle/gambling you're putting yourself in compared to the YOLO MB EtW.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Just to put it out there, Ari Lax had a list with double Rain of Filth ages ago, not sure if he ever played it anywhere, but he mentioned it in an article.

[sawatarix]

Just a little update regarding the manabase:

I play the 2 Volcanic Island 1 Bayou configuration for 2 weeks now and i'm pretty satisfied.
Tropical Island deserves a slot in my sideboard of course.

still not sure if empty the warrens is better then 1 burning wish in the main as a splitcard (tendrils of agony/empty the warrens)
I mean,a hand with Pif+rituals and wish is still a win whereas Empty is not.
The only sacrifice is to not have a fast turn1 goblin blowout but honestly, i haven't done it for weeks anyway.

[Lemnear]

Just a little update regarding the manabase:

I play the 2 Volcanic Island 1 Bayou configuration for 2 weeks now and i'm pretty satisfied.
Tropical Island deserves a slot in my sideboard of course.

still not sure if empty the warrens is better then 1 burning wish in the main as a splitcard (tendrils of agony/empty the warrens)
I mean,a hand with Pif+rituals and wish is still a win whereas Empty is not.
The only sacrifice is to not have a fast turn1 goblin blowout but honestly, i haven't done it for weeks anyway.

...mind the double red cost for Wish+PIF or Wish+EtW. That stuff is pretty annoying or why else do you think TES is bothering with RoF?

[phazonmutant]

Just a little update regarding the manabase:

I play the 2 Volcanic Island 1 Bayou configuration for 2 weeks now and i'm pretty satisfied.
Tropical Island deserves a slot in my sideboard of course.

still not sure if empty the warrens is better then 1 burning wish in the main as a splitcard (tendrils of agony/empty the warrens)
I mean,a hand with Pif+rituals and wish is still a win whereas Empty is not.
The only sacrifice is to not have a fast turn1 goblin blowout but honestly, i haven't done it for weeks anyway.

Is that with 14 lands main, or do you board up to 16 lands? It still seems like such a waste to devote a sideboard slot to a land, and I've been very happy maindecking 15 land given the prevalence of Wasteland decks.

I went 4-0 in a local with a list based on the hints and teasers that Slosh has posted about his list. I was very impressed with the two Past in Flames, and didn't miss Ad Nauseam. Here is my list, but I would appreciate slosh and sawatarix posting theirs for comparison since I've only played one event with it:

2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

// Sideboard
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
1 Ad Nauseam

I think my sideboard is pretty loose. I forgot to find room for 2-3 Sensei's Tops for the Miracles and discard matchups. The Empty, Duress, Massacre, and Ad Nauseam seem the most easily cutable to me, any advice?

I was happy with Bolt. I got an awesome blowout game 2 against Deathblade where I probed him turn 1 on the draw, saw that he had an absolutely stacked hand but no second land, and Bolted his Deathrite. It bought me like 4 turns and I won easily from there. I don't think that I need a second green land because I'm not planning on bringing in Decay or Swarm against Wasteland decks (except some sort of prison deck). Thoughts?

[sawatarix]

Well done—:)


I play 15 lands in my deck and depending on the matchup i exchange tropical island with another land or just add tropical as my 16th land against heavy land destruction decks.
Personally the lightning bolts do the very same thing as abrupt decay so in my opinion they look like wasted slots.
The best removal spells for stormdecks have been abrupt decay, chain of vapor (maybe the best one) and massacre/don so i don' really see the need for stuff like bolts, sudden shocks or pyroclasm.

Don't you board 2 abrupt decays against esper/jeskaiblade and jeskai delver?
Well you have Lightning Bolts and 1 massacre so probably not, but in general we have to board either 2 massacres or some number of abrupt decays.

[phazonmutant]

Well done—:)


I play 15 lands in my deck and depending on the matchup i exchange tropical island with another land or just add tropical as my 16th land against heavy land destruction decks.
Personally the lightning bolts do the very same thing as abrupt decay so in my opinion they look like wasted slots.
The best removal spells for stormdecks have been abrupt decay, chain of vapor (maybe the best one) and massacre/don so i don' really see the need for stuff like bolts, sudden shocks or pyroclasm.

Don't you board 2 abrupt decays against esper/jeskaiblade and jeskai delver?
Well you have Lightning Bolts and 1 massacre so probably not, but in general we have to board either 2 massacres or some number of abrupt decays.

Agreed, those Lightning Bolts are probably better served as something else. I don't like boarding in Abrupt Decay against Maverick. It's expensive and off color. I also don't like boarding in Decay against blade decks (especially if they have wastelands) for the same reasons.

Interesting that you like 16 lands. I barely like 15.

[Megadeus]

Greg your thoughts on the bolt and decay boarding against wasteland decks are my same exact thoughts and bolt has been great for me when I've played it. In a heavy hate bear meta I'd definitely play it. As for the deck, the only thing I'm not a huge fan of is the second tendrils, but I could very well be wrong on it. I also wouldn't cut AN completely just because it's personally my favorite tool to race elves/other combo decks, especially the ones that have trouble interacting

[Lemnear]

Well, you could Ponder about Disfigure instead of Bolt as a solution to Hatebears and shit as it wouldn't require you to fetch a Volcanic and expose your (likely) only red Dual to Wasteland

[Royce Walter]

Well, you could Ponder about Disfigure instead of Bolt as a solution to Hatebears and shit as it wouldn't require you to fetch a Volcanic and expose your (likely) only red Dual to Wasteland

Yeah, Bolt doesn't make any sense to me for these reasons. Being able to go off with a lower storm count seems like a fringe bonus at best, in what world can you get to exactly 6-7 spells on the combo turn with 3+ red mana? I mean, I'm sure it comes up, but the opportunity cost of getting Wastelanded seems much more problematic to me.

[sawatarix]

chain of vapor is still the best removal spell overall.
No need to fill your sideboard with unnessesary removal spells like Lightning Bolts, Sudden Shock or Disfigures.

[Togores]

Wagner won the modern event with modern pyromancer storm control and the legacy with grinding station at the mkm series. The guy is good. Nice.
I ended 4-4 u.u loosing to jean marie acart, a guy that top 8 in modern and 2 of my friends with control when in most of the games I got to 6 lands before diiing and only having played 2-3 spells....

So now vintage!

[Madsk]

Wagner won the modern event with modern pyromancer storm control and the legacy with grinding station at the mkm series. The guy is good. Nice.
I ended 4-4 u.u loosing to jean marie acart, a guy that top 8 in modern and 2 of my friends with control when in most of the games I got to 6 lands before diiing and only having played 2-3 spells....

So now vintage!

Is there any good coverage from Rome?

[CabalTherapy]

Is there any good coverage from Rome?

MTGQuality does the coverage there but it was laggy yesterday and offline during parts of the Legacy finals.
So, Pascal won the tournament with Grinding Station which draws more attention to our deck. Nevertheless, very good job winning both Modern and Legacy. I hope to see the Top8/16 lists soon. How was your tournament, Martin? I have seen that you won the trial on Friday.

Plus, cheer up, Rodrigo. I am sure it was just too much of bad luck.

[Ancestral]

MTGQuality does the coverage there but it was laggy yesterday and offline during parts of the Legacy finals.
So, Pascal won the tournament with Grinding Station which draws more attention to our deck. Nevertheless, very good job winning both Modern and Legacy. I hope to see the Top8/16 lists soon. How was your tournament, Martin? I have seen that you won the trial on Friday.

Plus, cheer up, Rodrigo. I am sure it was just too much of bad luck.

his a menber of thesource? i would love to read a report from him of this MKM series :) and congratz on winning modern and legacy, really impressive !

@cabaltherapy, i had the exact same thought about that is nice that a ant player wins but on the other hand people probably will be even more concern about stopping this deck ahah

i saw pascal casting burning wish wich i didn´t expect at all by watch the coverage live :p any one knows how many did he use?

[P-E]

surely 1 in side as he always played

[Jonathan Alexander]

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
1 Chrome Mox
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip

In my quest to find out if Empty is worth playing, I ran it maindeck today. Whenever I had it, I could also just kill my opponent with Tendrils. Also not sure about Top vs. Preordain and Xantid Swarm vs. Duress + Flusterstorm. Swarm is probably better against Show and Tell strategies, Top and more Flusterstorm / discard against basically everything else, although Preordain & 2 Past in Flames might actually be the best plan against Team America, considering they all seem to have Null Rod these days.
I'm probably going to stick with maindeck Ad Nauseam for now.

[H]

Wagner won the modern event with modern pyromancer storm control and the legacy with grinding station at the mkm series. The guy is good. Nice.
I ended 4-4 u.u loosing to jean marie acart, a guy that top 8 in modern and 2 of my friends with control when in most of the games I got to 6 lands before diiing and only having played 2-3 spells....

So now vintage!

I think you avenged that pretty well. Congrats on the win, what little I could see looked sweet.

[Sloshthedark]

Is that with 14 lands main, or do you board up to 16 lands? It still seems like such a waste to devote a sideboard slot to a land, and I've been very happy maindecking 15 land given the prevalence of Wasteland decks.

I went 4-0 in a local with a list based on the hints and teasers that Slosh has posted about his list. I was very impressed with the two Past in Flames, and didn't miss Ad Nauseam. Here is my list, but I would appreciate slosh and sawatarix posting theirs for comparison since I've only played one event with it:


Congrats, since august my MD is the same:

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony

SB:

3 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Massacre
2 Pyroblast
1 Extirpate
1 FLEX Chain of Vapor
1 FLEX Notion Thief



MTGQuality does the coverage there but it was laggy yesterday and offline during parts of the Legacy finals.
So, Pascal won the tournament with Grinding Station which draws more attention to our deck. Nevertheless, very good job winning both Modern and Legacy. I hope to see the Top8/16 lists soon. How was your tournament, Martin? I have seen that you won the trial on Friday.

Plus, cheer up, Rodrigo. I am sure it was just too much of bad luck.


just returned from the MKM, very tilting XP...
I wont the Friday trial with a very bad list - I wanted to try out some cards
MD - +Ad Nauseam, +2 Preordain, +LP - GT -2SDT -ToA
SB - 3 XS, Trop, Bayou, 3AD, 3DoN, 2 Slaghter Games, Karakas, Pyroblast?

2:1 Stifle Bug
2:1 U Omnitell
2:1 GBwr Lands w Entomb
2:0 Burn
ID
ID
at this point it's 0:30 in the morning and the Trial is NOT for byes.... read again... a TRIAL THAT IS NOT FOR BYES!

->win by split = 21 euro in boosters, a playmat and neverlasting fame..

BENVENUTI IN ITALIA!

the trial meta is total Bug vs. Miracles war, so I opted to play XS, which was a cardinal mistake for me... so Saturday:
MD = org list
SB = -3PN -Notion Thief - CoV +3XS +Bayou +Karakas (I had really big dillema whether to play 2 Massacre or 3 Don and 3rd AD insted of Grip -something)

2:0 Elves (Lans89 on the source) funny thing he recognized me by my name so he knew what I'm on
2:1 Miracles - lost game 1 despite of my great hand, he always topdecked something so I had to wait a turn and lost to double CB, G2 on the back of XS, G3 won through his CB
1:2 URW Golddigger brew - G1 T1 GP->30 Goblins, G2 he has SE+Snapcaster so I'm forced to make a poor trade and lose thanks to this, G3 I have mana heavy draw and I'm forced to go against a hand of Fow, CS, 2xFlusterstorm, SE, he thinks he has me and plays it pretty losely wasting all his spells and I drain him for 4 but all my draws is lands so I can't punish him... I was kind of down because the MU is pretty winnable imo, but Togores told me this is one of the most tough opps I could face...
1:1 Miracles - this is where it went south, I again lose long G1 despite my great hand, G2 I have a T1 kill but my gutt tells me to wait and this gets very long, I make a first major mistake not drawing from a GP, G3 we start with 2 mins on the clock, again I have a very strong hand but do not find discard and the final turn attempt get's double countered, could have played the turn a little bit better... I'm pretty tilted because I get into Miracles/Lands bracket till the end of the tournament and felt like I'd win the game in next 2-3 turns
0:2 Miracles - G1 I make another mistake with unnecessary Topping now - made 10 Goblins (could have also ToAed for 12 not being an idiot) and lost as he found Terminus thanks to the extra turn I gave him.. obv he had CB glued with it.. G2 I just lose to double CB despite having T1 XS
0:2 Miracles - G1 he starts SDT, I GP him - he has nothing, T2 I go for it, he waits and FoWs pitching FoW...ok... next turn I draw a CR and go for it, he FoWs, his turn he plays CB... well played sir... G2 I just lose to tripple CB... a very good player btw.
2:0 Elves - T2 kill and T3 kill
2:1 Burn - G1 lost, T2 kill, win but no joy...
4:3:1 = 61st

to sum this up 3 wins from the "bye" area yet no byes from friday, tilted by Miracles on Saturday - lost despite having good hands/chances... all 4 had left ~2Terminus 1-2 StP in the deck... they usually won with EtA even postboard... had to face multiple CB each game... SDT felt really good against them but in retrospective much better for them... my opps asking about T1 XS preventing activated/triggered abilities is funny and disappointing at the same time... I think I should have just played my initial list... had to leave today so I couldn't play Vintage, Friday and all combined the weekend leaves sour taste in my mounth..

congrats to mr. Wagner his performance both days was quite impressive (nice g1 in the finals, i think nobody noticed ToA is just for 18), dunno if he haven't won Vitage already =D, It was nice meeting Togores and other guys, the venue was nice but organization still "italian", Rome is a beautiful city but need days not hours of sightseeing

aaand that's it.

edit: wow, congrats Togores!

[sherko7]

Anyone with a stock list I can use to get into the archetype? Thanks!

[phazonmutant]

I can't find a link to the results of the MKM Legacy and Vintage tournaments, anyone have that?

I played the same maindeck as here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27161-DTB-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)-Storm-Combo&p=876956&viewfull=1#post876956) at the Vancouver Spring Classic. This was my sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Duress
2 Dread of Night (finally in Korean, thanks Matt!)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Surgical Extraction

I went a dismal 3-3, precipitated by some suboptimal decisions. I'll lay out the decisions because I think they were reasonably interesting. They streamed me in two feature matches, I'm working on getting the link.

R1 - Miracles 2-0
Game 1 I killed him before he could find enough answers or Counterbalance, nothing special. Game 2 was sweet, you should definitely check it out when I get the link. We Topped back and forth, then Cliqued me. I killed it, then built up. I shoved with a Brainstorm, he Blasted, I played a Ritual, flipped Top drawing the Tendrils, played Cabal Ritual, played Tutor (intending to reveal another Cabal Ritual) and he Counterspelled. Alright, probably just Flusterstorm to go! I played Cabal Ritual and Past in Flames. He Flusterstormed, tapping out. Boom. Tendrils for 20! He shrugged, Forced one, and took lethal. Winning through 4 counterspells in one turn, one hell of a way to start the tournament.

R2 - Strawberry Shortcake 2-0
He was playing a weird build with no recruiters but a bunch of ETutor targets main like Canonist. Didn't matter. He kept a fast hand on the play that would kill turn 2 if he drew a Spirit Guide or a Sol Land. So I played Brainstorm on 1 and found a line to kill turn 1. Drawing Past in Flames was great, of course. Game 2 was uneventful. He tutored a Canonist, I killed it, he died.

R3 - Grixis Control 2-0
Couple of interesting mulligan decisions game 1. My 7 on the draw was 2 lands and fast mana, but no cantrips, disruption, or business. I know what he's on. Keep or mulligan? I end up shipping it. My 6 is Infernal Tutor, Duress, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED, Tendrils. I end up keeping it because I know he's playing a slow deck, but I think in retrospect it's wrong because he has discard. It works out though, I draw a land on my 4th draw step and use the two discard spells I drew to fight through his three counterspells. The second game was a normal storm versus control.

R4 - Shardless BUG 0-2
Wheels came off this round. I kept an ok hand with a couple of Petals, couple of Cabal Rituals, tutor, a land, a Ponder. He opened on Deathrite, and my Ponder found a land, Past in Flames, and Duress. That's a keep, right? That should be enough for threshold and a win next turn, but he cascaded into Hymn, which as of last night he wasn't playing. :frown: Not bad, most combinations would still be lethal. Except he hit both Petals and I couldn't make the colors. Deathrite kept me off Past in Flames. Game 2 I mulliganned and my hand just did nothing.

R5 - TES 1-2
Played against a good TES pilot. Game 1 my hand had an Infernal Tutor, but Probe showed that he had a Probe, 3 Therapies, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame. Inexplicably I kept a Ponder because it had the LED to make the hand lethal...but he obviously discarded my Tutor. He drew the kill first. Game 2 was weird - he drew 7 cantrips and I drew none. Despite that, we ground each other down and I top decked first. Game 3 I had 2 Therapies, a land, Petal, a Surgical, and 2 LEDs. He led on Ponder and LED luckily. I drew a third LED, Therapied and whiffed, seeing a second land, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor. I guess I wasn't thinking about Ad Nauseam because I thought I was safe with Surgical in hand and passed. He Ad Naused, I decided to let it resolve. He flipped down to 2, and had to pass after I Surgicalled Tutor, but he won next turn with Burning Wish. In retrospect, maybe hitting LED was correct if I let him keep the tutor?

R6 - Miracle Blade 1-2
Game 1 was my first Empty of the day on turn 2. I beat down through Stoneforge and Clique. Game 2 he had everything - Clique, counterspells, Counterbalance. Game 3 he applied early pressure with Batterskull and I just couldn't punch through in time.

Overall the two Past in Flames list seemed strong. I really didn't like the Empty though. I'd like to try Top instead of Preordain like what slosh is doing, Preordain was pretty bad for me. I didn't miss the Ad Nauseam, surprisingly. It was never a viable line in the combo matchup, and the two Past in Flames plan is stronger against Miracles.

[Sloshthedark]

I can't find a link to the results of the MKM Legacy and Vintage tournaments, anyone have that?

I played the same maindeck as here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27161-DTB-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)-Storm-Combo&p=876956&viewfull=1#post876956) at the Vancouver Spring Classic. This was my sideboard:

R5 - TES 1-2
Game 3 I had 2 Therapies, a land, Petal, a Surgical, and 2 LEDs. He led on Ponder and LED luckily. I drew a third LED, Therapied and whiffed, seeing a second land, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor. I guess I wasn't thinking about Ad Nauseam because I thought I was safe with Surgical in hand and passed. He Ad Naused, I decided to let it resolve. He flipped down to 2, and had to pass after I Surgicalled Tutor, but he won next turn with Burning Wish. In retrospect, maybe hitting LED was correct if I let him keep the tutor?


Overall the two Past in Flames list seemed strong. I really didn't like the Empty though. I'd like to try Top instead of Preordain like what slosh is doing, Preordain was pretty bad for me. I didn't miss the Ad Nauseam, surprisingly. It was never a viable line in the combo matchup, and the two Past in Flames plan is stronger against Miracles.

Probably because there is none yet...
Naming BW I guess, wow how could you feel safe? =D I'd two 2-1 myself and SE the IT, interesting question is when to do that ...
I glad you found the power of 2Pif but can't say I like you plaing it, too many people and the MKM win drag attention sooner or later 2 PiF will lose some of it's charm once known to the masses... I also disliked preordain // not missing Ad Nauseam is not surprising ;)

[phazonmutant]

Probably because there is none yet...
Naming BW I guess, wow how could you feel safe? =D I'd two 2-1 myself and SE the IT, interesting question is when to do that ...
I glad you found the power of 2Pif but can't say I like you plaing it, too many people and the MKM win drag attention sooner or later 2 PiF will lose some of it's charm once known to the masses... I also disliked preordain // not missing Ad Nauseam is not surprising ;)

I realized I misremembered one of the cards in his hand. He must have had a Duress, not Chrome Mox, because I know he drew Ponder for turn when he went for it.

I'd like to see lists when they go up, especially for vintage. Yes, naming Burning Wish. He led on fetch Volcanic into Ponder, so I thought chances were reasonable he had it, and I can KO him if I extract the Wish. I forgot he was on TES, not ANT! That line is just fine against ANT...but yeah big mistake. Indeed, interesting question when to Surgical. Since he kept on Ponder, I think there are a few options that matter. One, he could have left Ad Nauseam on top. In that case he's one short from casting it, but I should still Surgical on my turn. Two, he could have left Burning Wish. He could Empty for like 10, and that might kill me since I have nothing going on, so I should Surgical on my turn again. The other option is he left Tutor, so I should Surgical when he casts Dark Ritual. I think it's probably safer to Surgical on my turn.

Haha we're on totally separate continents! It took years for the SCG grinders to pick up on ANT.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Anyone with a stock list I can use to get into the archetype? Thanks!

There isn't really one stock list anymore, but this is the basic skeleton:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest / Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou / Badlands
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony

This is 55 cards, which leaves five slots. Almost everyone has two more cantrips after that; some go for Sensei's Divining Top, some go for Preordain. Then you add more business. This could mean one Ad Nauseam or another Past in Flames plus up to two additional storm spells, split between Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens. If going for Ad Nauseam, people often go for 2 Preordain, 1 Sensei's Divining Top, 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Grim Tutor.
I would suggest keeping the list as simple as possible to get used to it and then try splits and additional cards as you learn.
You should add two copies of Preordain and then either two Tops and Ad Nauseam or one Past in Flames and two Tendrils. Then you practice with those configurations until you get used to the lines and when you feel comfortable with the deck, you can change slots to increase the number of lines you can take. The hardest part about playing storm optimally is probably deciding on how you're going to win the game, so for learning purposes, the 2 Past in Flames 3 Tendrils build is probably the best.

[Ricca84]

Some videos about Rome:

http://www.twitch.tv/mtgquality/profile/past_broadcasts

[Ghiwo]

hey guys!

I would like to go back to a topic of a few pages ago: Dread of Night vs. Massacre. I would like to post a reply, but didnt' have the time due to university stuff. My opinion is that, in my experience Massacre is awful vs. Death & Taxes, it might sound crazy, but I explain why: in my games vs. D&T, in both test games and tournament ones, my opponents were always able to play without any plains. They have plenty of ways to do it, as long as they have 4 karakas, some horizon canopy, Aether Vial, and some lists also run Flagstones of Trokair. I can assure you that the times where I cast a Massacre for 0 mana were lower than 3 since I play it. I always have to go up to 4 mana, 5 if they have Thalia. Also, I always test against a friend of mine who runs Maverick, and Massacre is rubbish against them, also the match-up is pretty hard as Sylvan Safekeeper + Gaddok is neary unbeatable for us. Maybe it's me but I'm starting to hate Massacre, as it's good only against Meddling Mage decks, to beat D&T I usually just need Chains and DoN. Even just a one of buys me tons of time to find a chain. Don't misunderstand me, I believe that D&T is a good match-up for us, I just find Massacre 95% of the time being a brick in my hand. What are your experiences with it? Do you cast it for free?

@Sloshthedark: it's really sad that you lost so many games vs. Miracles with you having good hands. Unfortunately all of you coming here in Italy for tournaments have to know that you're coming in the land of Miracles. A ton of people play that deck here, a lot of them in a poor way, but we have also some really good players, that you can find at the top tables. That's why I'm trying to improve my game against that deck as much as I can. You'll do better next time! :wink:

[phazonmutant]

hey guys!

I would like to go back to a topic of a few pages ago: Dread of Night vs. Massacre. I would like to post a reply, but didnt' have the time due to university stuff. My opinion is that, in my experience Massacre is awful vs. Death & Taxes, it might sound crazy, but I explain why: in my games vs. D&T, in both test games and tournament ones, my opponents were always able to play without any plains. They have plenty of ways to do it, as long as they have 4 karakas, some horizon canopy, Aether Vial, and some lists also run Flagstones of Trokair. I can assure you that the times where I cast a Massacre for 0 mana were lower than 3 since I play it. I always have to go up to 4 mana, 5 if they have Thalia. Also, I always test against a friend of mine who runs Maverick, and Massacre is rubbish against them, also the match-up is pretty hard as Sylvan Safekeeper + Gaddok is neary unbeatable for us. Maybe it's me but I'm starting to hate Massacre, as it's good only against Meddling Mage decks, to beat D&T I usually just need Chains and DoN. Even just a one of buys me tons of time to find a chain. Don't misunderstand me, I believe that D&T is a good match-up for us, I just find Massacre 95% of the time being a brick in my hand. What are your experiences with it? Do you cast it for free?

@Sloshthedark: it's really sad that you lost so many games vs. Miracles with you having good hands. Unfortunately all of you coming here in Italy for tournaments have to know that you're coming in the land of Miracles. A ton of people play that deck here, a lot of them in a poor way, but we have also some really good players, that you can find at the top tables. That's why I'm trying to improve my game against that deck as much as I can. You'll do better next time! :wink:

Agreed, Massacre is rubbish. It's not enough to beat them, and I don't need that many slots for the matchup. I've been very happy with the plan you describe of Dread of Night + Chain of Vapor. Often playing against them, I use an Infernal Tutor to find the second copy Dread of Night if I don't have the kill in-hand. They can't really disrupt you from there.

[KevinH]

I'll say this much on Massacre - I was playing UWR Delver for top 16 at an SCG Open, and knew my opponent's only out was Massacre to get rid of my Meddling Mage on his tutor. He cast a cantrip with about 4 open lands, I dazed it to return my Tundra and win the game. Good players will know to play around the card, but I think overall it's still very strong. Sure, DoN is better against D&T, but Massacre has dual utility against blade decks as well.

[wonderPreaux]

I'll say this much on Massacre - I was playing UWR Delver for top 16 at an SCG Open, and knew my opponent's only out was Massacre to get rid of my Meddling Mage on his tutor. He cast a cantrip with about 4 open lands, I dazed it to return my Tundra and win the game. Good players will know to play around the card, but I think overall it's still very strong. Sure, DoN is better against D&T, but Massacre has dual utility against blade decks as well.

This is definitely a factor for me, on MTGO there are so many Blade decks that I can't really explore Dread of Night as much because it's so hard to justify giving up that utility.

[phazonmutant]

I don't even think you should bring in Massacre against blade. They don't have so many creatures that a wrath is valuable, they often have misers RiP or Cages, and they can blank it by Daze, Waste, Deathrite, or equipment.

I prefer bringing in Chain over Decay, but I would bring in either before Massacre.

[sawatarix]

100% agree on don vs Massacre. Also remember that Death&Taxes has both aether vial and aven mindzensor,both instant speed disruption with high impact.

As for the Mkm Tournament, what should i say: Slosh,you dissapoint me :D
You can do better.

[Sloshthedark]

hey guys!

I would like to go back to a topic of a few pages ago: Dread of Night vs. Massacre. I would like to post a reply, but didnt' have the time due to university stuff. My opinion is that, in my experience Massacre is awful vs. Death & Taxes, it might sound crazy, but I explain why: in my games vs. D&T, in both test games and tournament ones, my opponents were always able to play without any plains. They have plenty of ways to do it, as long as they have 4 karakas, some horizon canopy, Aether Vial, and some lists also run Flagstones of Trokair. I can assure you that the times where I cast a Massacre for 0 mana were lower than 3 since I play it. I always have to go up to 4 mana, 5 if they have Thalia. Also, I always test against a friend of mine who runs Maverick, and Massacre is rubbish against them, also the match-up is pretty hard as Sylvan Safekeeper + Gaddok is neary unbeatable for us. Maybe it's me but I'm starting to hate Massacre, as it's good only against Meddling Mage decks, to beat D&T I usually just need Chains and DoN. Even just a one of buys me tons of time to find a chain. Don't misunderstand me, I believe that D&T is a good match-up for us, I just find Massacre 95% of the time being a brick in my hand. What are your experiences with it? Do you cast it for free?

@Sloshthedark: it's really sad that you lost so many games vs. Miracles with you having good hands. Unfortunately all of you coming here in Italy for tournaments have to know that you're coming in the land of Miracles. A ton of people play that deck here, a lot of them in a poor way, but we have also some really good players, that you can find at the top tables. That's why I'm trying to improve my game against that deck as much as I can. You'll do better next time! :wink:

yeah it's more of a anti UWx card, but DoN is just anti D+T card, even narrower, when I play In larger tournament I just hope to have U matches and deck will back me up in it's concistecy, there is a lot of "If" for them to have/not have to making acceptable loss when happening w Massacre

facing Miracles is not a problem, i have one of the best Miracles player in my LGS and was expecting to face 2-3 as the last time (btw. my 12post friend met 0 obv.) but losing from high % winning spots is tilting seems like I wasted my luckpool on Friday :D


I don't even think you should bring in Massacre against blade. They don't have so many creatures that a wrath is valuable, they often have misers RiP or Cages, and they can blank it by Daze, Waste, Deathrite, or equipment.

I prefer bringing in Chain over Decay, but I would bring in either before Massacre.

against UWR it's one of the best cards, decent vs Deathblade depending on their build as I feel Ad Nauseam is very good sometimes


100% agree on don vs Massacre. Also remember that Death&Taxes has both aether vial and aven mindzensor,both instant speed disruption with high impact.

As for the Mkm Tournament, what should i say: Slosh,you dissapoint me :D
You can do better.

I dissapoint myself even more ;) . I hope you'll do much better next week

[Togores]

So back on work now and gonna write a bit of report.
After going 5-3 and missing by tiebrakers the cash in modern and 4-4 in legacy....I WON THE FUCKING VINTAGE!!! And without spliting like the poo guys in legacy and modern +2k there I ended undefeated all day. Im vintage I played monastery mentor remora deck and in modern uw tron gifts, good decks but in modern some matchups are too hard.

In legacy I played my usual md with 2 tops and with this side:
1 empty
1 krossan grip
1 city of solitude
3 decay
2 chain
2 masaacre
3 xantid
2 flusterstorm

So to the rounds (i lost my life pad so I dont remeber everything)
R1 goblins
G1 i nauseam or pif him t2
G2 he puts goblin preassure and cage and I mever draw tutor or so.
G3 I pif loop him t1 (never got this before).

R2 grixis delver (guy top 8 the day before in modern, a spanish guy form american army parents who lives in germany)
G1 he has delver and fow as only things I can go off but he has fow. Never get a discard or extra bussines and loose. This game he even pithing my led... And I lost.

R3 monoblack
G1 I ad nauseam him and win.
G2 i make goblins he starts blocking with factorys and so but i end wining with a tendrills on storm 2.

R4 shardless bug jean maty acart
I know what he is on and that he plays mage in sb.
G1 he has nothing and starts 2 3:4 guys beatdown. Im at 10 life and have no red. I can go this turn for nauseam or that he dosnt draw any good card and me a red source and pif. I have 2 tutors in hand. So i would just need mana and led.
I ens up being 1 mana short to natural tendrills him. With top on table. Petal bs put toa on top and crack led. But no mana no fun.
G2 i play t1 top he plays pithing I draw with top and draw the other top. I end up loosing to 2 meddling and 2 deathrite with a hand of 4 cabal ritual, 1 duress and 2 sensei, never drew a decay for his mages on bs and cabal ritual and also never a ponde eor brainstorm.

R5 jaime cano on golddiger.
G1 i gring but end up loosing to jace.
G2 i mull to 6 with a hand of
Xantid
Petal
Ritual
2 led
Infernal
I keep and he starts with his random leyline, i go for mauseam to get cards and the krossan grip and he has fow...

R6 pedro jose with blade
Both games where the same
G1 i end with 8 lands on table and lots of mana in hand. And i had obly played 3 spells all gane
G2 i get stuck on 1 land mages on tendrills and decay win.

R7 burg delver
G1 I win on on pif
G2 i loose to multiple counters including flusterstorm and envelope whyle therapis shreed my hand
G3 i win a long grind game when he forces my xantid and I flashback pif.

R8 jund
G1 i just win
G2 discard and so comes and wins for him
G3 im going to loose and last turn find tutor and win.

Deck seemed good but I got unlcky a lot.
Sometimes happen. But wining vintage was just awesome.
Also sad I didnt played vs miracles... I was hopping to crush them.


Just to say, Pascal Wagner is an awesome player. Saw him few games and he is just a beast. Won with pyromancer storm the modern, grinding statiom the legacy and ended 9th in vintage with doomsdays storm.
Nice to speak to you Slosh!!!

[Arguru]

First of all,congratulations to Togores!
Then,I want to give my impression about DoN vs massacre:I found massacre to be very poor most of the time;against d&t and maverick I simply prefer DoN,against stoneblade we can play CoV/decay so we don't make ad nauseam worse too...

This is the list I'm playing atm:

2 volcanic island
2 underground sea
1 Bayou
1 island
1 swamp
4 misty Rainforest
4 polluted Delta

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
4 LED

4 gitaxian probe
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
1 preordain

4 cabal therapy
3 duress

4 infernal tutor
2 pif
1 tendrils of agony
1 Empty the warrens
1 grim tutor

//SIDE

1 ad nauseam
3 abrupt decay
3 Xantid swarm
3 CoV
2 dread of night
2 surgical extraction
1 tropical island

The manabase seems good,and I never missed main deck Ad Nauseam...IMHO main deck EtW is necessary to have a good option to go off on turn 1/2...sb tropical island is good when you have to side in abrupt decay against wasteland deck(as mentioned by sawatrix)...

If anyone has any advice,I'll be happy to listen you!

[Blizzard96]

his a menber of thesource? i would love to read a report from him of this MKM series :) and congratz on winning modern and legacy, really impressive !

@cabaltherapy, i had the exact same thought about that is nice that a ant player wins but on the other hand people probably will be even more concern about stopping this deck ahah

i saw pascal casting burning wish wich i didn´t expect at all by watch the coverage live :p any one knows how many did he use?




Yes, I am a member, but I don't like writing in forums, as it is most often guided by (stupid) questions

R1: UWR Counterbalance 2:0
R2: Lands 2:0
R3: UWR Counterbalance 2:0
R4: UWR Stoneblade 2:1
R5: UWR Balance 1: 1:1
R6: UWR Golddigger 2:1
R7: UWR Stoneblade 2:0
R8: Elves ID

QF: Esperblade 2:0
SF: Shardless BUG 2:1
Finals: UWR Stoneblade

Yes, I played against a lot of UWR (semi-)controlish decks.


Decklist:

Grinding Station

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Past in Flames
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard:15
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Burning Wish


Regarding DoN> Massacre:

For me, there has never been a real decision, yet a thought, about playing Massacre>DoN. DoN is permanent solution against thalia,Mother, SFM+Jitte, THEIR CLOCK and Aven Mindcensor, which can easily kill you if they've got him in response to Infernal Tutor. There are far more reasons, but I'll leave you with these.


Thanks for your kind words regarding my playstyle and my success.

I read this thread for the main reason, that it amuses me from time to time as mostly all of you argue without coming to a point, just to stay with your own opinion.
The topics of this thread didn't change for a long time and you still argue about some random stuff although ALL arguments have been written at least twice.

I will not write something in this thread again, but I'll possibly answer if you've got any questions regarding grinding station. (via PM or Facebook)

Greetings
Pascal Wagner

[Ancestral]

Yes, I am a member, but I don't like writing in forums, as it is most often guided by (stupid) questions

R1: UWR Counterbalance 2:0
R2: Lands 2:0
R3: UWR Counterbalance 2:0
R4: UWR Stoneblade 2:1
R5: UWR Balance 1: 1:1
R6: UWR Golddigger 2:1
R7: UWR Stoneblade 2:0
R8: Elves ID

QF: Esperblade 2:0
SF: Shardless BUG 2:1
Finals: UWR Stoneblade

Yes, I played against a lot of UWR (semi-)controlish decks.


Decklist:

Grinding Station

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Past in Flames
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard:15
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Burning Wish


Regarding DoN> Massacre:

For me, there has never been a real decision, yet a thought, about playing Massacre>DoN. DoN is permanent solution against thalia,Mother, SFM+Jitte, THEIR CLOCK and Aven Mindcensor, which can easily kill you if they've got him in response to Infernal Tutor. There are far more reasons, but I'll leave you with these.


Thanks for your kind words regarding my playstyle and my success.

I read this thread for the main reason, that it amuses me from time to time as mostly all of you argue without coming to a point, just to stay with your own opinion.
The topics of this thread didn't change for a long time and you still argue about some random stuff although ALL arguments have been written at least twice.

I will not write something in this thread again, but I'll possibly answer if you've got any questions regarding grinding station. (via PM or Facebook)

Greetings
Pascal Wagner

thanks for the answer , and even though you won´t writte back here, congrats on your astonish performance, just incredible! keep going ;)

[Sloshthedark]

Thanks for your kind words regarding my playstyle and my success.

I read this thread for the main reason, that it amuses me from time to time as mostly all of you argue without coming to a point, just to stay with your own opinion.
The topics of this thread didn't change for a long time and you still argue about some random stuff although ALL arguments have been written at least twice.

I will not write something in this thread again, but I'll possibly answer if you've got any questions regarding grinding station. (via PM or Facebook)

Greetings
Pascal Wagner

Haha, pretty fitting... yet not worse than any other forum... the whole time I thought Blizzard96 was someone totally different...

[Jonathan Alexander]

I'm gonna do a write-up on all the cards I believe to be viable in this deck. I will post it on my blog at some point this week. These are the cards I'm looking to include:

Brainstorm
Chain of Vapor
Flusterstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Preordain

Ad Nauseam
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Dread of Night
Duress
Ill-Gotten Gains
Infernal Tutor
Massacre
Rain of Filth
Tendrils of Agony
Thoughtseize

Burning Wish
Empty the Warrens
Past in Flames

Carpet of Flowers
Krosan Grip
Xantid Swarm

Abrupt Decay

Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top

Basics
Duals
Fetchlands
Gemstone Mine
Karakas

Am I missing something?

[Fatal]

Agree on core cards, I used also some vs specify meta:

In heavy MUD environment: Hurkyl's Recall
In heavy Hatebear environment: Slaughter Pact
In heavy Reanimator environment: Surgical Extraction / Extripate
In heavy Sneak Attack environment with Burning Wish version: Bribery

[sawatarix]

Grim Tutor as well.
I finally got 2 of them although i still believe that the card is not 100% what i want in this deck.
Look at these beautieshttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/15/90795811320dee68a92cf4782c7bc307.jpg

[KevinH]

Grim Tutor as well.
I finally got 2 of them although i still believe that the card is not 100% what i want in this deck.
Look at these beautieshttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/15/90795811320dee68a92cf4782c7bc307.jpg

Beguiler of Wills...such a random card lol, how did you decide on that?

[Lemnear]

Beguiler of Wills...such a random card lol, how did you decide on that?

Guess BigUp decided instead lol

[KevinH]

I'm gonna do a write-up on all the cards I believe to be viable in this deck. I will post it on my blog at some point this week. These are the cards I'm looking to include:

Brainstorm
Chain of Vapor
Flusterstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Preordain

Ad Nauseam
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Dread of Night
Duress
Ill-Gotten Gains
Infernal Tutor
Massacre
Rain of Filth
Tendrils of Agony
Thoughtseize

Burning Wish
Empty the Warrens
Past in Flames

Carpet of Flowers
Krosan Grip
Xantid Swarm

Abrupt Decay

Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top

Basics
Duals
Fetchlands
Gemstone Mine
Karakas

Am I missing something?

Would also like to hear about Pyroclasm, Surgical Extraction

[Ancestral]

Grim Tutor as well.
I finally got 2 of them although i still believe that the card is not 100% what i want in this deck.
Look at these beautieshttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/15/90795811320dee68a92cf4782c7bc307.jpg

Now the WB is gonne so that excuse too :p lets see if you like it !

and those arts are pretty gooD!!

[Sloshthedark]

Jona - depends how deep you want to go... what purpose has such list?

Sawatarix - just sold/sent one of mine today... I like the original art though...

[Jonathan Alexander]

As Pascal said, people tend to ask the same questions over and over, so it would be useful to have something that explains the role of each card, synergies and cards that compete for the same slots, for example Dread of Night and Massacre or Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip. Also, I like writing.

Also, I like trains.

[phazonmutant]

As Pascal said, people tend to ask the same questions over and over, so it would be useful to have something that explains the role of each card, synergies and cards that compete for the same slots, for example Dread of Night and Massacre or Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip. Also, I like writing.

Also, I like trains.

It's a good idea. The primer is pretty good at explaining the role of each card, so your piece would be how to tune your build?

Lim-Dul's Vault is a reasonable inclusion as well if you have a couple of Tops.

[sawatarix]

Jona you should write about trains then :D

Legacy GP Kyoto is this weekend so the grim tutors won't arrive in time because they are currently somewhere between germany and japan.

Here is my final list for the GP.

Ant.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/60972

The only slot i have been unsure about is Ad Nauseam.
On the other hand Empty the Warrens got never used during the last couple of tournaments.

I guess i have to play Ad Nauseam a little bit differently here.
Because there is a high chance of not getting the right cards i have to stop at a point to survive another turn. On my following turn i can pif/tutor chain my opponent. This works at least against fair decks.
If you guys have any further ideas here is the final chance before i go to the Gp with the TokyoMTG crew :)

I really hope to do well this time with 2 Byes plus a broken deck <3

[Sloshthedark]

As Pascal said, people tend to ask the same questions over and over, so it would be useful to have something that explains the role of each card, synergies and cards that compete for the same slots, for example Dread of Night and Massacre or Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip. Also, I like writing.

Also, I like trains.

Problem is newcomers won't read the primer unless it's good and uptodate and then a half of them still won't read it, neither it would answer their question... the thread is read like 3 pages back at most...


Jona you should write about trains then :D

Legacy GP Kyoto is this weekend so the grim tutors won't arrive in time because they are currently somewhere between germany and japan.

Here is my final list for the GP.

Ant.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/60972

The only slot i have been unsure about is Ad Nauseam.
On the other hand Empty the Warrens got never used during the last couple of tournaments.

I guess i have to play Ad Nauseam a little bit differently here.
Because there is a high chance of not getting the right cards i have to stop at a point to survive another turn. On my following turn i can pif/tutor chain my opponent. This works at least against fair decks.
If you guys have any further ideas here is the final chance before i go to the Gp with the TokyoMTG crew :)

I really hope to do well this time with 2 Byes plus a broken deck <3

I'd prefer Trop/fetch MD instead of Volc, you have soo many islands and don't need 2 R at all... EtW MD, because EtW side is weaker and Ad Nauseam MD at 3LP 2PiF is also meh unless you know you need to cast it... something else over 3rd preordian, 3 DoN... but that's your game to play =)

[Jonathan Alexander]

EtW MD, because EtW side is weaker

That is flawed thinking. Preboard, the best road to victory is generally Past in Flames, because it's the safest and doesn't require too many cards in hand, leaving room for disruption. The matchups where it isn't, that's because you need to be faster, thus Ad Nauseam is better there, allowing you to win from even less resources.
Those matchups are Miracles and combo mirrors. Delaying victory by at least two turns doesn't work against opposing combo decks and having Empty preboard against Miracles is just laughable.
Any strategies involving creatures are better postboard, when people have less/no removal.


It's a good idea. The primer is pretty good at explaining the role of each card, so your piece would be how to tune your build?

I think I'm going to do both. You must understand the roles cards fill to decide which ones to use anyway.

Cards I will add to the list:
Grim Tutor
Surgical Extraction / Extirpate

Cards I won't include:
Hurkyl's Recall - Too narrow. I don't care about 16 player tournaments where five guys show up with MUD.
Slaughter Pact - Pretty much strictly worse than Chain of Vapor. If not, it's worse than Massacre.
Bribery - Too cute. Same goes for Telemin Performance. Not sure about Slaughter Games. I kinda want to try that one out at some point, but I also think it's too cute.
Pyroclasm - Massacre does a better job at that. The only thing Pyroclasm does is fulfil people's desire to theoretically be able to beat any possible situation.
Lim-Dûl's Vault - just too bad of a card

Unsure about Silence and Orim's Chant. Something tells me I should probably mention them briefly, but I don't see myself ever running white again. You really need all the other colours and the commitment to white is just too heavy.

[Lemnear]

That is flawed thinking. Preboard, the best road to victory is generally Past in Flames, because it's the safest and doesn't require too many cards in hand, leaving room for disruption. The matchups where it isn't, that's because you need to be faster, thus Ad Nauseam is better there, allowing you to win from even less resources.
Those matchups are Miracles and combo mirrors. Delaying victory by at least two turns doesn't work against opposing combo decks and having Empty preboard against Miracles is just laughable.
Any strategies involving creatures are better postboard, when people have less/no removal.

That's ignoring matchups like Team America or Hatebear.dec in general where dumping Goblins is fine. I even consider EtW an ok choice for game 1s against Miracles. Ad Nauseam is just mediocre to bad depending on your flooded mana and often requires to pass the turn which I don't consider a great plan against CB or Thalia if you goal is to cast it T1/2. I won't talk about IMS or average cmc in regards to AN at this point.

[Timmy101]

I feel City of Solitude at least warrants a mention.

[Lemnear]

I feel City of Solitude at least warrants a mention.

There is a shitload of cards which might do, from Needle to Confidant and from Pyromancer to Karakas. The Problem is where to draw the line to not get lost in a plethora of shallow two-sentence-analysis potentially based on hear/say.

[Sloshthedark]

That is flawed thinking. Preboard, the best road to victory is generally Past in Flames, because it's the safest and doesn't require too many cards in hand, leaving room for disruption. The matchups where it isn't, that's because you need to be faster, thus Ad Nauseam is better there, allowing you to win from even less resources. Those matchups are Miracles and combo mirrors. Delaying victory by at least two turns doesn't work against opposing combo decks and having Empty preboard against Miracles is just laughable.
Any strategies involving creatures are better postboard, when people have less/no removal.


That is my experience. I'm not suggesting playing EtW as main wincon nor I'm saying it's best vs combo and Miracles (although manageable in both depending on situation). Most of the decks are actually handling EtW postSB better with sweepers... btw. I feel strong aversion to the card EtW itself.. This particular list doesn't exactly support Ad Nauseam as a fast kill... therefore I see no flaw in my thinking...

previous post better said - play MD or not at all.

[Rokkastut]

@Togores

Do you remember how you sideboarded in the different matchups?

My MD is practically identical to yours so I am curious on this.

Congrats on winning the vintage! My friend also t8 but lost to MUD in the quarterfinal.

[Ricca84]

What about Wagner list?

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16686&iddeck=124935

Seems pretty solid grinding station list, with some unusual thinks:

3 cabal ritual
No SdT
3+2 split AD+Grip in side.
AN + Wish plan in side

[Jonathan Alexander]

Oh no, after 2 1/2 years of playing the list we have suddenly changed two slots? Now, that's unusual. Please, stop being so ignorant, he even posted the list on the last page.

[phazonmutant]

That is my experience. I'm not suggesting playing EtW as main wincon nor I'm saying it's best vs combo and Miracles (although manageable in both depending on situation). Most of the decks are actually handling EtW postSB better with sweepers... btw. I feel strong aversion to the card EtW itself.. This particular list doesn't exactly support Ad Nauseam as a fast kill... therefore I see no flaw in my thinking...

previous post better said - play MD or not at all.

Particularly agreed with most people handling Empty better postboard. Especially since True Name, every deck has a way to deal with hordes of X/1s or just ignore them. Most pilots here will board in Zealous Persecution, Golgari Charm, EE, or some other random sweeper just because it's good against anything I could board in (Bob, YP, Swarm) too.

[Megadeus]

So board in your tundra and Myth Realized then ;)

[Jonathan Alexander]

The only reason to play Empty maindeck is if you're running a 16 card sideboard where you have to move one of the cards to the maindeck. It doesn't matter when they can handle it better because it's worse than the maindeck strategies regardless.
But yes, I was wrong in saying that all creature strategies are better postboard.

[Sloshthedark]

So board in your tundra and Myth Realized then ;)

Done this... wasn't exactly good, got wear/teared twice... and Golgari charm, hmmm... ended up 3:1 and won a mirror with Aegis of Gods for the lulz...

[Megadeus]

Done this... wasn't exactly good, got wear/teared twice... and Golgari charm, hmmm... ended up 3:1 and won a mirror with Aegis of Gods for the lulz...

Yeah I've been playing it in Modern Pox and it is sweet and thought of trying it in ANT. Unfortunately unlike Bob/Pyromancer/Pack Rat it only requires a singular removal spell, and I can see times where only having Tundra as your white source means you can like ritual, activate the pump ability, and attack in the same turn so I quickly dismissed the idea. But Dammit I'll keep brewing for that card.

[kuroko16]

Hy guys. i'm new player of storm. i just ask you an advice. i don't have access ( at the moment) to a Volcanic Island.

i use this configuration.

Any advice?

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands

Badlands is a good idea or maybe a blue/red shockland is better? thanks

[CabalTherapy]

Hy guys. i'm new player of storm. i just ask you an advice. i don't have access ( at the moment) to a Volcanic Island.

i use this configuration.

Any advice?

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands

Badlands is a good idea or maybe a blue/red shockland is better? thanks

Welcome.
I would use 8 or 9 fetchlands here. Badlands should be fine (although obviously not the best choice). It also depends on your list.
But, please, do not run Gemstone Mine.

[Tvox]

Hy guys. i'm new player of storm. i just ask you an advice. i don't have access ( at the moment) to a Volcanic Island.

i use this configuration.

Any advice?

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands

Badlands is a good idea or maybe a blue/red shockland is better? thanks
This depends on the rest of your configuration, if you'd be to in some way provide the rest of your list we could be of more help to you. Your configuration could be what fits your deck, but we can't know that or know what to change without seeing the rest, except gemstone mine, basics or fetches are generally preferred over those...

Otherwise, you could read of off some other people's lists, like going through at least the starting post (containing the primer) or the last 20-30 pages as to get a picture of where we're currently at.

[Tav]

Good luck to everyone battling in Kyoto

[sawatarix]

8:1:0 and 14th after Day1 @Legacy GP Kyoto

I had an incredible run today and ready for tomorrow !

Bye*
Bye*
2:1 Esper Stoneblade
2:1 Lands
2:0 Omnishow
0:2 Miracle
2:1 Bug Delver
2:0 Jeskai Delver
2:0 Esper Blade

8:1:0

My list felt great, especially the sideboard.
1 Tendrils of Agony + 2 Past in Flames + Ad Nauseam with 4 Petals and a Rain of Filth have been great so far.

Here some facts:

- I cast Empty the Warrens only once
- Ad Nauseam got used 2 times.
- All remaining kills were either Past in Flames or Tutor Chain
- Rain of Filth has been one of the best cards in this deck (fast ******** !)
- Flusterstorm is bonkers

Greetings and High 5's

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/d74f5b09e41a9cdec288e48e2debd4ae.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/67af524ee320e83d8ffe19d78a44dc9b.jpg

[nevilshute]

Awesome Kai!!! Take it down :smile:

[GoblinZ]

Good luck to your day 2!

[Rokkastut]

Top 43 all Japanese... is the plane tickets expensive??

Could you please post your list?

Good luck in day # 2.

[Poser]

Hi all guys ! :) Can you help a poor ANT bro player ? Tomorrow i'll got a T1.5 tournament, and i choose to bring the grinding station version of the deck, same Main and Side played by Pascal Wagner, for testing it. Here comes the problem: how to make the right choise in what to side in and what to side out, so...can you help me by write how you'are gonna side against the different MU with grinding station list ?
Thank you all!

[sawatarix]

13:2:0 aaaaaaand TOP FUCKING 8 @Grand Prix Kyoto !

<3http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/22e55c9232ed9a1d033a7765aab0b70f.jpg

[lordofthepit]

13:2:0 aaaaaaand TOP FUCKING 8 @Grand Prix Kyoto !

<3http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/22e55c9232ed9a1d033a7765aab0b70f.jpg

Congrats!

[Narcind]

Super sick! Now go win the whole thing!

Well, just watched you lose in the semis, too bad. Still a very impressive run though, well done.

[Holden1669]

Great run, sawatrix, congrats!

[Dark Ritual]

I must give you props if nothing else rain of filth got into the top 8 of a legacy grand prix at least. Glad to hear it was a boss. Congratz on the top 4 finish representing in that field full of miracles, delver, and omnitell.

EDIT: Please tell me the coverage team messed up your decklist and that your fetchland suite wasn't 3 delta, 4 misty, and 1 flooded strand as playing around pithing needle on delta is probably one of the worst things you can do in legacy storm.

[Narcind]

I must give you props if nothing else rain of filth got into the top 8 of a legacy grand prix at least. Glad to hear it was a boss. Congratz on the top 4 finish representing in that field full of miracles, delver, and omnitell.

EDIT: Please tell me the coverage team messed up your decklist and that your fetchland suite wasn't 3 delta, 4 misty, and 1 flooded strand as playing around pithing needle on delta is probably one of the worst things you can do in legacy storm.

I think he does it because he only plays with foils, and those are the foils that he owns? Could be completely wrong though.

[CabalTherapy]

I think he does it because he only plays with foils, and those are the foils that he owns? Could be completely wrong though.

No, you are right! xD That's our Kai.

Awesome and fantastic run through Kyoto. Unbelievable! :smile: I guess, we have to expect a juicy tournament report with a lot of pictures and stuff.

[GoblinZ]

Just saw the coverage, fantastic finish! Congratulations to you Kai.

[Ancestral]

No, you are right! xD That's our Kai.

Awesome and fantastic run through Kyoto. Unbelievable! :smile: I guess, we have to expect a juicy tournament report with a lot of pictures and stuff.


indeed and we wanna that report fast ahahahah

congratz kai !!

[.Ix]

Awesome finish Kai!! Congrats!

[Megadeus]

Congrats dude! Good to see. Can't wait for a report!

[l33twash0r]

13:2:0 aaaaaaand TOP FUCKING 8 @Grand Prix Kyoto !

<3

Gratz! Waiting for the report.

[GoblinZ]

With Kai's top four finish, we are knocked out from DTB again.

[Chaam]

With Kai's top four finish, we are knocked out from DTB again.

I blame Kai for this! Should of won the whole thing!










jk Kai, great job! Congrats on the finish!

[Dragonslayer_90]

I just looked at the players that Top 8'ed GP Kyoto and was very pleased to see our own Kai Thiele and his machine gun among the Top 8 lists. Congrats Kai! Look forward to another once of your colorful reports :smile:

[IlCannone]

Was watching the whole day 2 with friends from 2:30 in the night till the end, just to see Kai lose his only Camera Match in the Semis.

He played like I expected him to, I think in Game 2 was a window, where Opponent had 2 Lands and Force in hand, and no other Disruption, but Kai didn't have the information.
It was very ugly seeing him losing to this deck...

Again, congratz, and yeah: report! :)

[Ellomdian]

With Kai's top four finish, we are knocked out from DTB again.

Let's be fair, at this point, the DTB section should just be 4 different Miracles lists.

[skyraiderofVT]

Hi all! Long-time stalker, first-time poster. I've come for some advice regarding sideboarding.
My metagame has a lot of the manaless Dredge lists, and often they combo out and kill me before I get a chance to do the same. In order to build a sideboard and have a plan to deal with them, I've added two Surgical Extraction to the SB to deal with them. Are there any suggestions on cards to bring in/out against these matches? For reference, my decklist is:
Deck: ANT Storm (http://deckstats.net/decks/3202/190163-ant-storm/en) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif

//Main
4 Lion's Eye Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lion%27s+Eye+Diamond)
4 Lotus Petal (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lotus+Petal)
4 Cabal Ritual (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cabal+Ritual)
1 Ad Nauseam (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ad+Nauseam)
4 Dark Ritual (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Dark+Ritual)
4 Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
2 Preordain (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Preordain)
1 Past in Flames (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Past+in+Flames)
4 Duress (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Duress)
1 Tendrils of Agony (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tendrils+of+Agony)
4 Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ponder)
4 Infernal Tutor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Infernal+Tutor)
4 Gitaxian Probe (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Gitaxian+Probe)
3 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cabal+Therapy)
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lim-D%FBl%27s+Vault)
2 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
1 Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)
4 Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Polluted+Delta)
2 Bloodstained Mire (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bloodstained+Mire)
2 Scalding Tarn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Scalding+Tarn)
1 Volcanic Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Volcanic+Island)
2 Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
1 Bayou (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bayou)

//Sideboard
2 Xantid Swarm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Xantid+Swarm)
2 Carpet of Flowers (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Carpet+of+Flowers)
3 Abrupt Decay (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Abrupt+Decay)
2 Chain of Vapor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Chain+of+Vapor)
1 Empty the Warrens (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Empty+the+Warrens)
2 Massacre (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Massacre)
1 Pyroclasm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pyroclasm)
2 Surgical Extraction (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Surgical+Extraction)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/decks/3202/190163-ant-storm)

Thanks in advance!

[Togores]

Play 2-4 planar void and have a nice day ^^

[Ghiwo]

hi guys!

first of all my best congrats to Kai for his result in Kyoto!

Then, I would like to bring up for the final time (I hope so), as Pascal suggested, a topic that is really annoying me from some time. I hope that you guys with more experience don't get bothered from this, but just give me some tips so I can stop bothering you :tongue:
The topic is that: how do I beat Miracles? The question isn't just as general like that, as I playtested a fair amount of games. My questions are about game1 and game2, I really want to learn how to handle Miracles so feel free to write everything that comes to your mind if you want.

From what I learned reading here and playing I have to steal g1 before they land balance+top or play top and float a counter on top of their library (unless I have pif in my hand to beat an hardcounter). That is pretty clear, so I have just a single question: is there any way to go off through a top-balance lock in g1? Maybe with Ad Nauseam?

Ok, let's talk about post board games, and accordingly sideboard construction. The problem is that: they are faster in finding the lock than me finding a Decay, if I don't have one in my opening hand. If they find the lock and I don't find a Decay immediately they can soon find the second balance and from that the game is pretty much over, as long as we are hoping for a Decay at every topdeck. Plus, after the lock they don't leave me so much time as they can beat me down with Vendilions and Snapcaster Mages. That led me to prefer Carsten's approach with extra Tops in the board. Because if I have my own Top I can dig better for the Decay and I'm not just hoping for it to come soon.
Trying to discard balance on turn 1 or 2 not always works as they will often have Spell Pierce or fow to protect it or Brainstorm to hide it.
Another card that I found useful is City of Solitude, because I can play it under the lock and if it resolves it forces them to set the top of their library during their turn with some more troubles.
I also tried Pithing Needle, but it seems to me that it is only good if I can play it before they land their lock. To achieve that I should run a 4-of maybe, to see it in my opening hand. Otherwise, under the lock it's the same problem, I have to find a Decay and then try to land my Needle.
What I was thinking about is going heavy with Decay effects, maybe with 5 of them. I'll think about a 4/1 ora a 3/2 split with Krosan Grip. But I also liked City of Solitude. Do you prefer Grip or City?

I am preparing for a quite big event on the 2nd of May, Ovino Spring, and as some of you know, Italy, and especially Milan, is infested with Miracles. That's why I really need to learn how to beat that deck consistently. Some of you (I remember Slosh) said that for them Miracles is not a problem: give me some advices!

Thanks a lot everybody!

[Lemnear]

hi guys!

first of all my best congrats to Kai for his result in Kyoto!

Then, I would like to bring up for the final time (I hope so), as Pascal suggested, a topic that is really annoying me from some time. I hope that you guys with more experience don't get bothered from this, but just give me some tips so I can stop bothering you :tongue:
The topic is that: how do I beat Miracles? The question isn't just as general like that, as I playtested a fair amount of games. My questions are about game1 and game2, I really want to learn how to handle Miracles so feel free to write everything that comes to your mind if you want.

From what I learned reading here and playing I have to steal g1 before they land balance+top or play top and float a counter on top of their library (unless I have pif in my hand to beat an hardcounter). That is pretty clear, so I have just a single question: is there any way to go off through a top-balance lock in g1? Maybe with Ad Nauseam?

Ok, let's talk about post board games, and accordingly sideboard construction. The problem is that: they are faster in finding the lock than me finding a Decay, if I don't have one in my opening hand. If they find the lock and I don't find a Decay immediately they can soon find the second balance and from that the game is pretty much over, as long as we are hoping for a Decay at every topdeck. Plus, after the lock they don't leave me so much time as they can beat me down with Vendilions and Snapcaster Mages. That led me to prefer Carsten's approach with extra Tops in the board. Because if I have my own Top I can dig better for the Decay and I'm not just hoping for it to come soon.
Trying to discard balance on turn 1 or 2 not always works as they will often have Spell Pierce or fow to protect it or Brainstorm to hide it.
Another card that I found useful is City of Solitude, because I can play it under the lock and if it resolves it forces them to set the top of their library during their turn with some more troubles.
I also tried Pithing Needle, but it seems to me that it is only good if I can play it before they land their lock. To achieve that I should run a 4-of maybe, to see it in my opening hand. Otherwise, under the lock it's the same problem, I have to find a Decay and then try to land my Needle.
What I was thinking about is going heavy with Decay effects, maybe with 5 of them. I'll think about a 4/1 ora a 3/2 split with Krosan Grip. But I also liked City of Solitude. Do you prefer Grip or City?

I am preparing for a quite big event on the 2nd of May, Ovino Spring, and as some of you know, Italy, and especially Milan, is infested with Miracles. That's why I really need to learn how to beat that deck consistently. Some of you (I remember Slosh) said that for them Miracles is not a problem: give me some advices!

Thanks a lot everybody!

The trick to play around CB top game 1 is to exhaust your opponents mana by making him/her countering your spells which you don't really care for. Casting Brainstorms or Dark Rituals during your opponents end step usually provokes them spinning their top, so if you untap then and sequence 0cc/1cc/2cc spells forth and back, you can drain your opponents manapool to the point he can't counter your remaining Rituals and business. It should be clear that you want to burn Petals, cantrips and Dark Rituals first before going for Cabal Rituals and Infernals as those blank the 1cc revealed if SDT is exchanged with the top card of the Library.

I can see the appeal of City, but I have to wonder if you can find space for it AND the still required Decay w/o chopping more flexible SB cards like Xantids

[IlCannone]

I have also great troubles beating Miracles...
For the strategy Lemnear was suggesting: This is a good starter, but remember that a good Miracles player will float a 2 on the top of his library and wont counter your 1cc spells with balance when running out of mana to spin. Then you are forced to have the Empty/Tendrils in hand, which is more unlikely than having a tutor. Even PiF does not help here.

This Matchup is also a reason why i prefer 1 Grim Tutor in my list, since he can power through a CB, since CMC3 is afaik the casting cost they have the least in their deck, and it has been of good service to me lately.

[Lemnear]

I have also great troubles beating Miracles...
For the strategy Lemnear was suggesting: This is a good starter, but remember that a good Miracles player will float a 2 on the top of his library and wont counter your 1cc spells with balance when running out of mana to spin. Then you are forced to have the Empty/Tendrils in hand, which is more unlikely than having a tutor. Even PiF does not help here.

This Matchup is also a reason why i prefer 1 Grim Tutor in my list, since he can power through a CB, since CMC3 is afaik the casting cost they have the least in their deck, and it has been of good service to me lately.

Have you counted the number of 2cc cards in an average Miracles list? Floating a 1cc + a 2cc spell in the top three is far from guaranteed. It's your best shot once they stick CB+Top without you being able to combo before that. I don't see how Grim Tutor would be any help if they can counter all your Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals anyways like you implied

[IlCannone]

My point was: They don't need to float 1 AND 2 if they have a 2 in the top 3. It has been my experience, that if they are low on mana and have a CMC2 in their top 3, you are not going to win, even if you play 4 rituals, LED and whatever, because they float 2 and sit on that forever.

And CMC 3 is rarer than CMC2, that is for sure, so my point here is: it is very likely that after they are running out of mana they will focus on 2, so you can win with Grim where you otherwise wouldn't have.

But it is like many discussions concerning Storm: If... when... you need to.... just do this... : if you don't have it, all theory is nonsense.

[acidhead]

The topic is that: how do I beat Miracles? The question isn't just as general like that, as I playtested a fair amount of games. My questions are about game1 and game2, I really want to learn how to handle Miracles so feel free to write everything that comes to your mind if you want.

I can tell you that it's not easy, as a Miracles player who played this matchup a lot (Berlin meta consist mostly of control and combo). But Carsten Kötter and Kai Thiele both proofed me that it's possible ;)
You have basically four ways:

Have a protected kill Turn 1 or 2
Play unexpected Bombs early (Dark Confidant/Young Pyromancer/Carpet of Flowers)
Have enough protection while they haven't CB/Top online.
If they have CB/Top online: Exploit the stack to get them short on mana


The first two options are a no-brainer but work anyways (It is unlikely that they have much countermagic online in the first turns, even if they board 9-12 cards), the last one is the tricky one. Try to go off when they are short on mana and you have enough mana on the table. If they are unexperienced they will give you good windows of opportunity because they play lot's of cantrips/top activations or ideally Jace in their round to filter their hand. The idea is to play many spells with idealy different CMC on the stack so that they use a lot of mana to hopefully counter some spells. For example:

You start with Infernal Tutor, they put CB trigger on stack and activate top to rearrange. You let the top ability resolve and put an Dark Ritual on top of the stack, they put a CB trigger on stack and want to rearrange, you let that resolve and cast a Cabal Ritual...

There are a lot of ways how you could do it and they don't work on any opponent as well but it can work to win this way against CB/Top. Well, at least if they have only CB/Top on Board and not 1 or 2 more hate cards.

[Sloshthedark]

Hi all! Long-time stalker, first-time poster. I've come for some advice regarding sideboarding.
My metagame has a lot of the manaless Dredge lists, and often they combo out and kill me before I get a chance to do the same. In order to build a sideboard and have a plan to deal with them, I've added two Surgical Extraction to the SB to deal with them. Are there any suggestions on cards to bring in/out against these matches? For reference, my decklist is:
Deck: ANT Storm (http://deckstats.net/decks/3202/190163-ant-storm/en) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif


That should be enough (I SB AdN, x PN and Extirpate), Manaless is one of the best MUs and can be very frustrating for them imo, you start with a timewalk, the can't kill you T1, every your discard is a timewalk (preferably GP and Street wraith), every their SB interaction is a timewalk... basicaly be aware of Leyline, SE and posibilities of U version


hi guys!

first of all my best congrats to Kai for his result in Kyoto!

Then, I would like to bring up for the final time (I hope so), as Pascal suggested, a topic that is really annoying me from some time. I hope that you guys with more experience don't get bothered from this, but just give me some tips so I can stop bothering you :tongue:
The topic is that: how do I beat Miracles? The question isn't just as general like that, as I playtested a fair amount of games. My questions are about game1 and game2, I really want to learn how to handle Miracles so feel free to write everything that comes to your mind if you want.

From what I learned reading here and playing I have to steal g1 before they land balance+top or play top and float a counter on top of their library (unless I have pif in my hand to beat an hardcounter). That is pretty clear, so I have just a single question: is there any way to go off through a top-balance lock in g1? Maybe with Ad Nauseam?

until they have 2 and 1 on top and 4+mana nothing is lost and game si on and there are windows of opportunity, after that chances are pretty slim, basicaly reduced to players making mistakes like going for Jace and other unwise mana spending, value hunters not countering 1CC being too secure with 2CC on top... natural storm into EtW if you have it (actually interesting gamble if you want to play around 4CC), maybe Ad nauseam into natural storm if they don't have 0 and other marginal stuff like GT an all 0... waiting for EtA can be long but you'll find you about their version by then



Ok, let's talk about post board games, and accordingly sideboard construction. The problem is that: they are faster in finding the lock than me finding a Decay, if I don't have one in my opening hand. If they find the lock and I don't find a Decay immediately they can soon find the second balance and from that the game is pretty much over, as long as we are hoping for a Decay at every topdeck. Plus, after the lock they don't leave me so much time as they can beat me down with Vendilions and Snapcaster Mages. That led me to prefer Carsten's approach with extra Tops in the board. Because if I have my own Top I can dig better for the Decay and I'm not just hoping for it to come soon.
Trying to discard balance on turn 1 or 2 not always works as they will often have Spell Pierce or fow to protect it or Brainstorm to hide it.
Another card that I found useful is City of Solitude, because I can play it under the lock and if it resolves it forces them to set the top of their library during their turn with some more troubles.
I also tried Pithing Needle, but it seems to me that it is only good if I can play it before they land their lock. To achieve that I should run a 4-of maybe, to see it in my opening hand. Otherwise, under the lock it's the same problem, I have to find a Decay and then try to land my Needle.
What I was thinking about is going heavy with Decay effects, maybe with 5 of them. I'll think about a 4/1 ora a 3/2 split with Krosan Grip. But I also liked City of Solitude. Do you prefer Grip or City?

I am preparing for a quite big event on the 2nd of May, Ovino Spring, and as some of you know, Italy, and especially Milan, is infested with Miracles. That's why I really need to learn how to beat that deck consistently. Some of you (I remember Slosh) said that for them Miracles is not a problem: give me some advices!

Thanks a lot everybody!

MKM was very disheartening experience regarding Top under balance for me, I'll try more G+top in the future (I like splitting with KGrip) but I still prefer PN for now (landing SDT an PN is the same problem), I don't know the MU/approach might got worse due to DTT in crucial moments anyway, I don't know, I can't claim to have much experience with City of Solitude... Good luck in Milan, I'm not going this time...

[sawatarix]

Thank you for cheering for me at Grand Prix Kyoto !

I will drop a report within the next 24 hours, so stay tuned !

Kai

[Lemnear]

MKM was very disheartening experience regarding Top under balance for me, I'll try more G+top in the future (I like splitting with KGrip) but I still prefer PN for now (landing SDT an PN is the same problem), I don't know the MU/approach might got worse due to DTT in crucial moments anyway, I don't know, I can't claim to have much experience with City of Solitude... Good luck in Milan, I'm not going this time...

maybe it's a personal issue, but I don't see the point of 2 SDT to find 3 Decays rather than running 4-5 removals from the start especially in regards to other possible annoyances across the table like Chalice, RIP, Thorn & Co. which not necessarily give you the time or opportunity to dig for the 3 Decays.

[JDK]

Thank you for cheering for me at Grand Prix Kyoto !

I will drop a report within the next 24 hours, so stay tuned !

Kai
Nice! Grats to your Top8, can't wait to see the report, as I just bought into ANT. :D

[IlCannone]

Another question which came to my mind while testing:

Game1, unknown opponent you are on the play and have a sure T1 Kill in hand. You have no idea what opponent is playing, and you have no Discard or Probe to see if the coast is clear or to clear the coast. Do you go for it?

Different situation: From your scouting you know that your opponent is playing a Force of Will deck, but your opponent does probably not know what he is up against. Do you go for it?

[CabalTherapy]

Another question which came to my mind while testing:

Game1, unknown opponent you are on the play and have a sure T1 Kill in hand. You have no idea what opponent is playing, and you have no Discard or Probe to see if the coast is clear or to clear the coast. Do you go for it?

Different situation: From your scouting you know that your opponent is playing a Force of Will deck, but your opponent does probably not know what he is up against. Do you go for it?

Yes and yes!

[IlCannone]

Question turned around:

In which case would you NOT go for it on the play Turn 1 without seeing opponent's hand? Or do you always go for it? =)

[Sloshthedark]

1, in vacuum 99% of games 2, depends what deck he plays, what T1 kill I have, how opp behaves and what I think of him, still about 9/10

[Royce Walter]

Question turned around:

In which case would you NOT go for it on the play Turn 1 without seeing opponent's hand? Or do you always go for it? =)

You don't always go for it, but it's a pretty good rule of thumb. Basically what you should be asking yourself is "Am I more likely to win if the game goes longer than I am right now?"
The answer is almost always "no" once you allow your opponent to start using their mana to cantrip into protection and making Daze/Pierce/Stifle/Thoughtseize live cards for them. Given that turn 1 kill hands are virtually all mana + action and leave little room for cantrips, your draw is unlikely to improve significantly within the first few turns. I suspect there are situations in which it is correct, but I'm unable to conceive of one off the top of my head that doesn't involve at least some knowledge of my opponent's decklist.

[IlCannone]

Thanks for the replies.
I am also always going for it on Turn 1 when possible. Just wanted to know how others handle this.

What I also learned from talking to some opponents was, that even if someone playing Force in his deck knows what he is up against, they won't mulligan till they find a Force, because chances that we have the T1-Kill are statistically pretty low (ANT, not TES). Is even more true since people moved AN to the board and lists became more grindy.

[skyraiderofVT]

Thanks for the replies! I was wondering if Surgical/Extirpate is a better option than Leyline of the Void, and why? Seems like mulligan to Leyline is just a game win against a lot of GY-based decks.

[JamieW89]

Thanks for the replies! I was wondering if Surgical/Extirpate is a better option than Leyline of the Void, and why? Seems like mulligan to Leyline is just a game win against a lot of GY-based decks.

- Leyline is bad with AN, which is good vs combo decks.
- This deck runs a lot of cantrips, which are better with hate that you don't need in your opener.
- You need to run 4 Leylines if you want to go for the mull-to-leyline plan, which is a lot of slots.
- It makes for awkward mulligan decisions.

Surgical & Extirpate are both playable with their own upsides, for your issues I'd just run 2 Surgicals (but manaless always seemed like a good MU to me, unlike LED dredge with its speed).

[skyraiderofVT]

- Leyline is bad with AN, which is good vs combo decks.
- This deck runs a lot of cantrips, which are better with hate that you don't need in your opener.
- You need to run 4 Leylines if you want to go for the mull-to-leyline plan, which is a lot of slots.
- It makes for awkward mulligan decisions.

Surgical & Extirpate are both playable with their own upsides, for your issues I'd just run 2 Surgicals (but manaless always seemed like a good MU to me, unlike LED dredge with its speed).

Awesome, thank you so much! I came to the same conclusion about Surgical, but the clarification and discussion was very helpful.

[Jonathan Alexander]

With regards to Leyline being bad with Ad Nauseam, you could always run Helm of Obedience alongside Leyline. Also opens up Ill-Gotten Gains as an engine. We did that in Grinding Station ages ago, although I have to admit that Pascal liked it much more than I did, I always felt Ad Nauseam plus Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt or Surgical Extraction was more reliable. I do like Ill-Gotten Gains in combo mirrors though.

[GoblinZ]

Awesome, thank you so much! I came to the same conclusion about Surgical, but the clarification and discussion was very helpful.

I would consider playing flusterstorm against dredge, it saved me last time for I countered a first-turn breakthrough+LED.

Although manaless may be a different thing, they partly rely on probe to accelerate and may play FOW in the sideboard.

[Megadeus]

Got rekt by dredge tonight. He had the nut turn 1 in game 2 making 16 dudes and double therapy me. Game three he had a pretty nut hand while I had to mull to five. Luckily I had surgical to hit both of his Grave Trolls off of his LED but I didnt find enough lands and was a red source short of killing him on turn 3.

Then got a savage beating from Esper Helm/Leyline. Beat him game one from stripping his brainstorm. Game two he has the nut after a few turns. I Therapy, he flusterstorms, I duress, he forces, I cast rituals, cast IT, he spell snares, I draw with top, cast Tendrils, he has a second Flusterstorm. Yep. That's basically how my night went.

Tried out Bolts though and they seemed fine. It was nice against the deck with Meddling Mage when he couldn't really profitably stop me from killing his mages. It ended up being a pretty combo heavy night though. What do you guys think about High Tide? Do we just board in the Swarms and call it a day? What about the new Omni deck? Same principle?