[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Sloshthedark]

I've never seen it before, and forgive me if this is a common thing...but I just saw an ANT player resolve Sylvan Library on camera.

Anyone else jam this, too??

Oh! watching replay atm , totally hyped... just finished hilarious (or pathetic, depending on the point of view) 5C Froelich special ... btw. Library is obv. quite bad...

edit: I hope the Sylvan is MD... despite so much Storm featured the quality plays somehow dodge the stream...

[JamieW89]

Top-4'd a ~100 player event today. Played 2 DP, 1 EtW, 1 SDT, 1 Preordain main, 0 Flusterstorm, 2 Hurkyl's (quite a bit of MUD and friends around) as most interesting sb choices.

Round-1: Shardless 2-0 1-0
Round-2: Merfolk 2-0 2-0
Round-3: Elves 2-1 3-0
Round-4: Sneak & Show 2-1 4-0
Round-5: Death & Taxes 2-1 5-0
Round-6: ANT ID 5-0-1
Round-7: RIP Miracles ID 5-0-2

Quarter Final: BUG Control 2-0
Semi Final: RIP Miracles 0-2

Punted the final game against miracles, because I missordered my top three the turn before. The line was ritual, ritual, cabal ritual, cabal therapy(counterspell),led,tutor(counterspell), flip top for.. not the Tendrils for 18 that should have been there. That said, I could only pay for 8 copies versus his flusterstorm he was floating so he'd have been on 2 anyways, but terrible plays regardless.

[Tom T]

Top-8'ed the same ~100 player event yesterday as JamieW. Played 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 Preordain, 1 Sensei's Divining Top and 7th Discard.
Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chain of Vapor

Round-1: Jund 2-0 1-0
Round-2: Elves 2-1 2-0
Round-3: UW Control 2-0 3-0
Round-4: Miracles 2-1 4-0
Round-5: BUG Control 2-0 5-0
Round-6: ANT ID 5-0-1
Round-7: Sneak&Show ID 5-0-2

Quarter Final: RIP Miracles 1-2

I made a mistake in the first game of the QF; named the wrong card with Cabal Therapy. Had a great weekend though!

[Plague Sliver]

Had an amazing time at #GPSeaTac. Met Jonas, Kai and Bryant Cook in person. I was the storm scrub, but sleeved it up for the GP. Right after the DTT ban, I wasn't sure what I wanted to play. Truth be told, it would be the best time in 18 months to play Death and Taxes. But knowing about the rise of Shardless BUG made me re-evaluate playing Thalia and friends.

Starting in October, I started grinding games against a friend to get more comfortable with ANT (crossing over from TES). Played a ton against RUG Delver, Death and Taxes, and Control. I very quickly realized that playing basic lands + Past in Flames maindeck = OP...

Got knocked out of Day 2 contention by the fifth round, but played it out for the experience.

Played something similar to Kai's Kyoto list with 15 land, 1 Tendrils, 2 Past in Flames, 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 Preordain, 1 Sensei's Top, 0 Dark Petition main. Empty the Warrens in the sideboard.

Here's what I played against:

R1 Dredge: L 1-2
R2 Elves: W 2-1
R3 Merfolk: L 0-2
R4 Burn: W 2-1
R5 Shardless BUG: L 1-2
R6 RUG Delver: W 2-1
R7 Infect: W 2-1
R8 BUG Delver: W 2-0
R9 UWR Delver: W 2-1

I punted 2 rounds against Manaless Dredge and Merfolk essentially due to my own silly play mistakes. This deck is not easy!

Highlights of the weekend:
- (in trials) Punishing Jund opponent triple Thoughtseizes me on the play, resolves Chains of Mephistopheles. Fist pumps says he has me dead. I untap and win :)
- (in trials) Shardless BUG opponent goes first in two games, has the Force of Will in both games, I win both games. This is why we play this deck!!!
- (in trials) Elves player has active deathrite, exiles a meaningless Socery in response to my Buyback Tendrils for lethal.
- Burn opponent had Eidolon resolve in all 3 games and I won a nail-biter in game 3.
- RUG Delver player saw 3 Force of Will and 3 Stifles over one game, I never X-for-1'd him ever with Cabal Therapy but still win the game. This is why we play this deck!!!
- T1 and T2 kill BUG Delver opponent. It's supposed to be our worst matchup, right?
- UWR Delver player had 9 power on board, I win at 6 life with Past in Flames.
- Beating Bryant Cook 50% of the time in test games. It was testing, but I wanted to rep Past in Flames Storm :)

Some observations:
- I was much too aggressive with Ad Nauseams, cost me a game or 2. Probably carrying over from my TES days where AN can easily win the game. Have to learn to be more conservative or set up to win easily on my untap step.
- Really torn about Dark Petition. In testing it was pretty bad to flip a 5 CC card, but there were situations where not needing to go Hellbent to find Tendrils would have won me some matches.
- Empty the Warrens is BAD when you can't cast it T1 or even T2 on the draw. I tried playing it main at the side event and absolutely hated it. It stays in the board.
- Top wasn't really all that relevant because I didn't face a ton of discard. Might consider going back to a 3rd Preordain.
- 6 discard spells is just fine. Originally had 3-3 Duress/Therapy split but opted to go 2-4 because there were a ton of Burn decks in the room. Being able to hit Eidolon and Thalia was important.

Overall, a great if mistake-filled time. Keep storming, brothers.

[monovfox]

Hello Lovely storm players. My storm-flinging housemate has recently been quite frustrated with the whole idea of how fucking difficult it is to beat the following cards in game 1: Thalia, Chalice of the Void, and Counterbalance. While I may be no storm veteran, I knew there was a solution in one of my favorite cards, waiting to be utilized. Thus, I present to you: Pyromancer's Ascension Tendrils, or simply "God dammit PAT my eyesight is making me see double, you know I can't see your fingers from this distance. No, I didn't go to the store last night, that was your job, I was picking up the kids from soccer practice. "

2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dark Petition
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pyromancer Ascension

It can combo through chalice, and is fairly resilient to force of will because they have to force of will Ascension. Lacks a little bit of the consistency regular ANT has, but makes for it in straight up "No, you don't get to interact with me, at all". Pretty mediocre against DRS decks, but it pretty much could care less about Regular Blue decks (non-DRS), Thalia, Chalice, and Counterbalance.

deck might want a single ad naeseum over 4th pyromancer ascension. It's capable of doing pretty broken stuff when pyro has two counters:

1 colorless 2 black mana up mana up, only infernal tutor in hand, you literally just win the game. Infernal tutor, 2 copies. First one resolves and you grab a dark ritual, holding priority add 6 mana to your pool from dark rit, then second tutor resolves and you grab dark petition.. Dark petition, leaving you with 7 mana and freshly cabal therapy and infernal tutor. Get two cabal therapies for 1 mana, leaving you at 6 mana. infernal tutor -> Dark rit -> dark pit again, grab lotus petal + past in flames, win.

Thought I think the most broken thing it does is kill your opponent through chalice on 1, resolved thalia, or with counterbalance out.

[Dr_D]

Hello Lovely storm players. My storm-flinging housemate has recently been quite frustrated with the whole idea of how fucking difficult it is to beat the following cards in game 1: Thalia, Chalice of the Void, and Counterbalance. While I may be no storm veteran, I knew there was a solution in one of my favorite cards, waiting to be utilized. Thus, I present to you: Pyromancer's Ascension Tendrils, or simply "God dammit PAT my eyesight is making me see double, you know I can't see your fingers from this distance. No, I didn't go to the store last night, that was your job, I was picking up the kids from soccer practice. "

2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dark Petition
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pyromancer Ascension

It can combo through chalice, and is fairly resilient to force of will because they have to force of will Ascension. Lacks a little bit of the consistency regular ANT has, but makes for it in straight up "No, you don't get to interact with me, at all". Pretty mediocre against DRS decks, but it pretty much could care less about Regular Blue decks (non-DRS), Thalia, Chalice, and Counterbalance.

deck might want a single ad naeseum over 4th pyromancer ascension. It's capable of doing pretty broken stuff when pyro has two counters:

1 colorless 2 black mana up mana up, only infernal tutor in hand, you literally just win the game. Infernal tutor, 2 copies. First one resolves and you grab a dark ritual, holding priority add 6 mana to your pool from dark rit, then second tutor resolves and you grab dark petition.. Dark petition, leaving you with 7 mana and freshly cabal therapy and infernal tutor. Get two cabal therapies for 1 mana, leaving you at 6 mana. infernal tutor -> Dark rit -> dark pit again, grab lotus petal + past in flames, win.

Thought I think the most broken thing it does is kill your opponent through chalice on 1, resolved thalia, or with counterbalance out.

If you're hellbent on beating cards like Thalia and Chalice in game 1, just play TES.

[Minniehajj]

If you're hellbent on beating cards like Thalia and Chalice in game 1, just play TES.

I see what you did there!

[Lemnear]

Hello Lovely storm players. My storm-flinging housemate has recently been quite frustrated with the whole idea of how fucking difficult it is to beat the following cards in game 1: Thalia, Chalice of the Void, and Counterbalance. While I may be no storm veteran, I knew there was a solution in one of my favorite cards, waiting to be utilized. Thus, I present to you: Pyromancer's Ascension Tendrils, or simply "God dammit PAT my eyesight is making me see double, you know I can't see your fingers from this distance. No, I didn't go to the store last night, that was your job, I was picking up the kids from soccer practice. "

2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dark Petition
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pyromancer Ascension

It can combo through chalice, and is fairly resilient to force of will because they have to force of will Ascension. Lacks a little bit of the consistency regular ANT has, but makes for it in straight up "No, you don't get to interact with me, at all". Pretty mediocre against DRS decks, but it pretty much could care less about Regular Blue decks (non-DRS), Thalia, Chalice, and Counterbalance.

deck might want a single ad naeseum over 4th pyromancer ascension. It's capable of doing pretty broken stuff when pyro has two counters:

1 colorless 2 black mana up mana up, only infernal tutor in hand, you literally just win the game. Infernal tutor, 2 copies. First one resolves and you grab a dark ritual, holding priority add 6 mana to your pool from dark rit, then second tutor resolves and you grab dark petition.. Dark petition, leaving you with 7 mana and freshly cabal therapy and infernal tutor. Get two cabal therapies for 1 mana, leaving you at 6 mana. infernal tutor -> Dark rit -> dark pit again, grab lotus petal + past in flames, win.

Thought I think the most broken thing it does is kill your opponent through chalice on 1, resolved thalia, or with counterbalance out.

Been there; discussed it here; tested myself over a week; dismissed for being slow as fuck (which is a problem against Thalia/Chalice/Counterbalance/etc. in the first place). It does not get better once CB is resolved thanks to the 2cmc

If you want a storm deck which realistically beats all the turn 2 drops like MeddlingMage/Thalia/Canonis/Chalice/Counterbalance/Hymn/ActiveDRS/whatever, Dr_D gave you the answer.

Orherwise, just deal with that stuff via Sideboard

[Plague Sliver]

Hello Lovely storm players. My storm-flinging housemate has recently been quite frustrated with the whole idea of how fucking difficult it is to beat the following cards in game 1: Thalia, Chalice of the Void, and Counterbalance. While I may be no storm veteran, I knew there was a solution in one of my favorite cards, waiting to be utilized. Thus, I present to you: Pyromancer's Ascension Tendrils, or simply "God dammit PAT my eyesight is making me see double, you know I can't see your fingers from this distance. No, I didn't go to the store last night, that was your job, I was picking up the kids from soccer practice. "


Has this list been put to the test in any tournament? It's one thing to theorize or to win test games, quite another to do well in a tourney...
Second Lemnear's opinion that it seems too slow.

[ScottW]

Kai,
I saw you play round 2 at GP Seattle and really liked your card edition choices and alters. Have you ever posted your deck in the pimp thread? Those altered and signed Alpha basics are so neat.

How'd you do overall in the tournament?

[Tom T]

Hello Lovely storm players. My storm-flinging housemate has recently been quite frustrated with the whole idea of how fucking difficult it is to beat the following cards in game 1: Thalia, Chalice of the Void, and Counterbalance.

So he is frustrated because his opponents basicly kill him on turn 2? Guess how he makes hís opponents feel all the time by playing storm..

On a more serious note, Chalice on 1 or 0 is actually not that hard to beat and Counterbalance is also not that hard to play around. It's when your opponents also have a clock or in counterbalance's case a Top, cantrip or counterspell it becomes pretty hard. Storm still has options to go off turn 1 or 2 or cast a discard spell and the opponent has to draw that hatepermanent.
And even if that permanent resolves you can still win; sunday I won through Double balance and 4 land in play (one of them was a fetch), a snapcaster mage on top, 3 Force of Will and a spell snare in hand. I didnt even cast an abrupt decay, just went for natural in hand tendrils with some mindgames to make him use his fetch and shuffle away the snapcaster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcz_kDCBTBk

[Dr_D]

So he is frustrated because his opponents basicly kill him on turn 2? Guess how he makes hís opponents feel all the time by playing storm..

On a more serious note, Chalice on 1 or 0 is actually not that hard to beat and Counterbalance is also not that hard to play around. It's when your opponents also have a clock or in counterbalance's case a Top, cantrip or counterspell it becomes pretty hard. Storm still has options to go off turn 1 or 2 or cast a discard spell and the opponent has to draw that hatepermanent.
And even if that permanent resolves you can still win; sunday I won through Double balance and 4 land in play (one of them was a fetch), a snapcaster mage on top, 3 Force of Will and a spell snare in hand. I didnt even cast an abrupt decay, just went for natural in hand tendrils with some mindgames to make him use his fetch and shuffle away the snapcaster.



To add to this, Death and Taxes is pretty easy if you're on the play game 1 in my opinion. Between the ability to just turn 2 them or cabal therapy their thalia, I don't see how it can be that frustrating for the friend.

[downtoonelife]

So he is frustrated because his opponents basicly kill him on turn 2? Guess how he makes hís opponents feel all the time by playing storm..

On a more serious note, Chalice on 1 or 0 is actually not that hard to beat and Counterbalance is also not that hard to play around. It's when your opponents also have a clock or in counterbalance's case a Top, cantrip or counterspell it becomes pretty hard. Storm still has options to go off turn 1 or 2 or cast a discard spell and the opponent has to draw that hatepermanent.
And even if that permanent resolves you can still win; sunday I won through Double balance and 4 land in play (one of them was a fetch), a snapcaster mage on top, 3 Force of Will and a spell snare in hand. I didnt even cast an abrupt decay, just went for natural in hand tendrils with some mindgames to make him use his fetch and shuffle away the snapcaster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcz_kDCBTBk

^Agree.

Way back before mystical tutor got banned, I beat Makihito Mihara with his board containing Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sensei and Counterbalance but no creature in play. I just continue playing until I drew Tendril's. Fortunately I have enough mana to just cast spells, let it get countered just to have a storm count and tendril's him ftw. After playing Omnitell and Animator for 2 years, now I'm re-learning to play Ad Naus (I stop playing ANT after Mystical got banned).

[Jonathan Alexander]

I wrote a report, it's online now: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2015/11/12/10-5-at-gpseatac/

[Tom T]

Any of you slinging some spells at Grand Prix Brussels this weekend?

[Ronald Deuce]

I wrote a report, it's online now: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2015/11/12/10-5-at-gpseatac/

Thanks for linking that! Great to see some reporting that's a lot more reliable than I've managed (I keep forgetting to bring note-taking materials, and everything fuzzes up really quickly for me).

At the risk of retreading something Ad Nauseam (huehuehue), I'm wondering how you felt the double Past in Flames performed for you. The reason I ask is that last Sunday I played against Pox and got pretty thoroughly crushed. Surgical Extraction made a few appearances, in one game wiping LEDs, Dark Rituals, and Cabal Rituals. Not my finest hour. I'm not prepared to chalk it up to my general incompetence (though that's doubtless a factor in my subpar performance with the deck) because, especially against heavy discard, I feel like mulliganing more than once is pretty much asking to fold. Let me know what you think!

[OlegtheSuper]

I wrote a report, it's online now: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2015/11/12/10-5-at-gpseatac/

Thank you very much! Very interesting

May be there is a mistake. In round one vs D&T you in 3 dread of night, but there are only 2 of them in picture of yoir deck. May be there 2 dread and 3 decay

[Jonathan Alexander]

Thanks for linking that! Great to see some reporting that's a lot more reliable than I've managed (I keep forgetting to bring note-taking materials, and everything fuzzes up really quickly for me).

At the risk of retreading something Ad Nauseam (huehuehue), I'm wondering how you felt the double Past in Flames performed for you. The reason I ask is that last Sunday I played against Pox and got pretty thoroughly crushed. Surgical Extraction made a few appearances, in one game wiping LEDs, Dark Rituals, and Cabal Rituals. Not my finest hour. I'm not prepared to chalk it up to my general incompetence (though that's doubtless a factor in my subpar performance with the deck) because, especially against heavy discard, I feel like mulliganing more than once is pretty much asking to fold. Let me know what you think!

Most decks have insufficient graveyard hate before sideboarding, so multiple copies of Past in Flames are great. They are generally lower on relevant cards, which means you get away with being slightly slower and more resilient.


Thank you very much! Very interesting

May be there is a mistake. In round one vs D&T you in 3 dread of night, but there are only 2 of them in picture of yoir deck. May be there 2 dread and 3 decay

Thanks, I fixed that now for both rounds against Death & Taxes.

[movadomk5]

1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Dark Petition
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm

The list I've been running for a few months now and wanted to see others opinions on my sideboard strategy against blue based decks that also have Deathrite. My plan has been:

-2 Preordain
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Cabal Ritual
-3 Duress

+ 1 Tropical
+2 Swarm
+2 Chain
+2 Disfigure

The games always seem close but not sure this is the best configuration to go with.

[ScottW]

Anybody notice the 4 Monastery Mentor and 1 Tundra in the side board of the top 32 ANT list at the GP?

[Ronald Deuce]

Anybody notice the 4 Monastery Mentor and 1 Tundra in the side board of the top 32 ANT list at the GP?

AAAARRGH! Just wrote a rather lengthy message. Disappeared again. In short, I like it, but I'm not sure it'll work without a ton of changes to the sideboard.

Pros:
—Probably not what opponents expect game 2 or 3
—Attacking with any blue or black source untapped is gonna make our opponents think really hard
—If we add further white cards like Silence, we can do stuff like time-walk the opponent to build up Monks
—Infernal Tutor can be used without LED to stock a hand with 'roids for the Monks [EDIT: and make more Monks at the same time]

Cons:
—Slow. Probably way too slow for a deck with no counterspells or removal
—We need to add more white sources if we expect the Mentor to stick, and we probably will need to cut green from the deck or cut it way back to just Carpet/Xantid
—Requires a lot of sideboard restructuring, maybe even to the point of running a transformational board
—Clashes with other stuff in the board like Dread of Night and Massacre
—We've got to find a way either to Haste everything or to produce tokens during the opponent's turn THEN pump them up during ours

Food for thought/questions: When would we board in the Mentors? What would they replace? Does Mentor really solve our problems with hatebears, discard, or heavy control?

Also, did anyone else notice the full quads of Duress and Therapy? I tested with that a bit, but it felt like I kept wanting to draw tutors or cantrips, and instead drew more discard.

[Sloshthedark]

it deserves a longer answer but I'm short on time, shortly - it's too much

-2 Sensei’s Divining Top
-1 Past in Flames
-2 Tendrils of Agony

for my liking... for example against MUD I'd go the other route and keep ToA and SDT as it's very realistic to ToA for 14-16 ftw, SDT works very well both under Spheres and onboard LED and EtW for naturaly fast hands is something I'd prefer.. I also do not understand contradictory approach of +AdN +EtW vs. Deathblade and Lands

I hope you don't regret playing Storm, I was rooting for you through the rounds and would be shocked to learn you played Miracles ;)


1 Swamp

The list I've been running for a few months now and wanted to see others opinions on my sideboard strategy against blue based decks that also have Deathrite. My plan has been:

-2 Preordain
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Cabal Ritual
-3 Duress

+ 1 Tropical
+2 Swarm
+2 Chain
+2 Disfigure

The games always seem close but not sure this is the best configuration to go with.

Deathrite + U = Burg, grixis, bug, deathblade, sharless .. which one do you mean? all are different, if it has discard or hatebears XS is not stellar, with splash +W you might want AD, and I can't see a reason to cut IT


Anybody notice the 4 Monastery Mentor and 1 Tundra in the side board of the top 32 ANT list at the GP?

if you have also noticed it's performance in the coverage...

[movadomk5]

Mainly the BUG Delver and midrange/control matchups. If I suspect discard as interaction I don't bring in XS but more wondering on the other choices. The Tutor is a bad choice I only cut it because I kept in the petition but prob better cards to cut.

[Togores]

I wrote a report, it's online now: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2015/11/12/10-5-at-gpseatac/

Thanks for the report.
2 things.
One: you didnt faced against miracles. But how would you have sideboarded?

Two: reading your report almost against all deks you took out grinding station and put nauseam in. There for you want nauseam against all deck that are not rug, patriot, miracles and blade I think. So why not playing nauseam main and 2 tendrills sb?

[davelin]

AAAARRGH! Just wrote a rather lengthy message. Disappeared again. In short, I like it, but I'm not sure it'll work without a ton of changes to the sideboard.

Pros:
—Probably not what opponents expect game 2 or 3
—Attacking with any blue or black source untapped is gonna make our opponents think really hard
—If we add further white cards like Silence, we can do stuff like time-walk the opponent to build up Monks
—Infernal Tutor can be used without LED to stock a hand with 'roids for the Monks [EDIT: and make more Monks at the same time]

Cons:
—Slow. Probably way too slow for a deck with no counterspells or removal
—We need to add more white sources if we expect the Mentor to stick, and we probably will need to cut green from the deck or cut it way back to just Carpet/Xantid
—Requires a lot of sideboard restructuring, maybe even to the point of running a transformational board
—Clashes with other stuff in the board like Dread of Night and Massacre
—We've got to find a way either to Haste everything or to produce tokens during the opponent's turn THEN pump them up during ours

Food for thought/questions: When would we board in the Mentors? What would they replace? Does Mentor really solve our problems with hatebears, discard, or heavy control?

Also, did anyone else notice the full quads of Duress and Therapy? I tested with that a bit, but it felt like I kept wanting to draw tutors or cantrips, and instead drew more discard.

The statement that it clashes with DoN or Massacre is an odd one given that there are no MUs where you would bring in both. I would imagine it would be mostly be brought in for the Miracles matchup, like how for some time Young Pyro was being advocated. Mentor doesn't get stopped by sb'ed Flusters, Spell Pierce and unlikely to be stopped by Counterbalance on the table, with the obvious downside that it turns on creature removal (if kept in post-SB). It's a way to provide some pressure against that deck and then hopefully finish off the opponent with creature attacks or a mini-tendrils shortly there-after.

[Ronald Deuce]

The statement that it clashes with DoN or Massacre is an odd one given that there are no MUs where you would bring in both. I would imagine it would be mostly be brought in for the Miracles matchup, like how for some time Young Pyro was being advocated. Mentor doesn't get stopped by sb'ed Flusters, Spell Pierce and unlikely to be stopped by Counterbalance on the table, with the obvious downside that it turns on creature removal (if kept in post-SB). It's a way to provide some pressure against that deck and then hopefully finish off the opponent with creature attacks or a mini-tendrils shortly there-after.

Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't advocating bringing in both Mentor and white-hate; I was just pointing out that there's a lot more synergy between different cards in all the other sideboards I've seen; it's possible to board in Decays, Empties, and Dread at the same time against Miracles, for instance, even though there are better plans that don't involve boarding in ten-plus cards. Against D&T, for instance, I can see why Mentor would be useful post-board, but it would clash with other cards that are dedicated to fighting D&T. Essentially my point was that I felt like there would be less flexibility if both were in the board.

[Jonathan Alexander]

it deserves a longer answer but I'm short on time, shortly - it's too much

-2 Sensei’s Divining Top
-1 Past in Flames
-2 Tendrils of Agony

for my liking... for example against MUD I'd go the other route and keep ToA and SDT as it's very realistic to ToA for 14-16 ftw, SDT works very well both under Spheres and onboard LED and EtW for naturaly fast hands is something I'd prefer.. I also do not understand contradictory approach of +AdN +EtW vs. Deathblade and Lands

I hope you don't regret playing Storm, I was rooting for you through the rounds and would be shocked to learn you played Miracles ;)



Thanks for the report.
2 things.
One: you didnt faced against miracles. But how would you have sideboarded?

Two: reading your report almost against all deks you took out grinding station and put nauseam in. There for you want nauseam against all deck that are not rug, patriot, miracles and blade I think. So why not playing nauseam main and 2 tendrills sb?


First off, Storm was the correct choice for the tournament. I'm very glad Sean convinced me. My list could've been better though.

Second, my boarding against Miracles:

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-4 Infernal Tutor
-2 Ponder
+2 Carpet of Flowers
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 Empty the Warrens

Third, number of Tendrils in the deck at certain stages. You are rarely forced to be fast in game ones. Most of the blue decks have such minimal interaction that being a turn slower barely matters. Against blue decks, however, drawing those Tendrils is often very strong. Likewise, drawing Past in Flames is also almost always better against them than drawing Ad Nauseam.
You really only want Ad Nauseam against nonblue after sideboarding. In fact, I was toying around with Dark Petition in place of the third maindeck Tendrils for a bit, and these lists often did not even run Ad Nauseam in the 75 at all. This is definitely something I want to keep exploring, it might just be better than Ad Nauseam. Against a lot of decks, having Empty in your deck can make up for the loss of Ad Nauseam. This also bleeds into Martin's comments on my sideboarding; I am not convinced boarding in Ad Nauseam is even that much better than boarding Empty against a lot of decks. Against Death & Taxes, for example, I don't think it's unreasonable to just leave Ad Nauseam in the board and board multiple Empties. However, given how narrowly I escaped with a win the one time I cast it against Death & Taxes (turn one, nonetheless), I am not too convinced.

[davelin]

Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't advocating bringing in both Mentor and white-hate; I was just pointing out that there's a lot more synergy between different cards in all the other sideboards I've seen; it's possible to board in Decays, Empties, and Dread at the same time against Miracles, for instance, even though there are better plans that don't involve boarding in ten-plus cards. Against D&T, for instance, I can see why Mentor would be useful post-board, but it would clash with other cards that are dedicated to fighting D&T. Essentially my point was that I felt like there would be less flexibility if both were in the board.

Bringing in Mentors against D&T would probably be a mistake, if only for the fact that you're siding in a single white source of mana against with a deck with Wastelands and Ports.

[OlegtheSuper]

What do you think about Ignorant Bliss vs decks with counterspells and discards like shardless, TA, grixis?

[BrettF]

It's a "single axis" answer to a multi axis matchup. So say you pass with two mana open to use ignorant bliss, they might play into it, or they might just keep keep attacking while holding up pierce and force, they might drop a meddling mage into play(Shardless), maybe they play another deathrite and a wasteland and pass- so even if you do fetch your red source and spend two mana to draw a card eot, they can waste the volc before you can use it to combo with. The worst possible scenario is they stifle the "at end of turn return the cards to your hand and draw a card" delayed trigger.

[Lemnear]

It's a "single axis" answer to a multi axis matchup. So say you pass with two mana open to use ignorant bliss, they might play into it, or they might just keep keep attacking while holding up pierce and force, they might drop a meddling mage into play(Shardless), maybe they play another deathrite and a wasteland and pass- so even if you do fetch your red source and spend two mana to draw a card eot, they can waste the volc before you can use it to combo with. The worst possible scenario is they stifle the "at end of turn return the cards to your hand and draw a card" delayed trigger.

Oh dear, if you ever see that happen, walk over to the player who had cast IB and slap him/her in the face like Holly Holms would

[Ronald Deuce]

Played against Pox not too long ago, and I pretty much got destroyed. Got stuck on one card in hand game 1, and on zero lands in game 2 (Sinkhole). I wasn't really sure what a good strategy would be to beat it except to board in any extra copies of Duress we might have in the board and just jam our discard early. Six discard spells feels like it's far too few, but even seven felt like it probably wouldn't get there. Also, sideboard space is limited because we're already running 4+ cards against Miracles, 3+ cards against Mav/D&T, and likely at least three flex spots for utility spells like Chain of Vapor or Disfigure. What's everyone thinking is the best strategy for dealing with heavy discard and heavy land-destruction? Just board in a few copies of Empty and try to race? I tried that, but I couldn't get cookin' before it got Hymned. Was also considering adding a Dark Confidant or two, but I feel like it clashes with Ad Nauseam and probably won't last against Smallpox, Innocent Blood, and Liliana. I'd appreciate any suggestions, and for the record, my deck was running 2 Petitions, 1 AdN, 1 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 14 lands. I've since switched one Petition to Empty and added a fifteenth land (3 basics, 8 fetches, 2 Underground, 1 Volc, 1 Badlands) in place of the third Duress. I've found that I usually outlast control without needing more than one discard, I've been getting Wasted pretty regularly, and I feel like a maindeck Badlands can be pretty handy.

[skyout]

I know there are a lot of these posts that pop up, so please forgive me. I'm a seasoned Legacy player, looking to pick up Storm. I have read a few of the articles including Stormboarding by Carsten Kotter. Could you guys point my in the direction of some more reading?

[BrettF]

VII. Useful Links

Old ANT thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)), lots of useful discussion to read through here
The Council (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Ad%20Nauseam%20Tendrils&format=Legacy), where you can see recent lists and finishes for this deck (and all the rest)
The Cabal Rises (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23816-Eternal-Europe-The-Cabal-Rises.html), article by Carsten Kotter, 3/23/12
The Storm Experience (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25130-Eternal-Europe-The-Storm-Experience.html), article by Carsten Kotter, 11/02/12
Comparative Storming (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/26624-Comparative-Storming.html), article by Carsten Kotter, 8/02/13
Storm Training Regimen (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/26673-Storm-Training-Regimen.html), article by Carsten Kotter, 8/09/13
Legacy Storm Primer (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25829_Legacy-Storm-Primer.html#content_decks_legacy-tab), article by Adam Prosak, 3/14/13
Braving The Storm In Los Angeles (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25438_Braving-The-Storm-In-Los-Angeles-8th.html), article by Adam Prosak, 1/03/13

How to Beat Storm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0), video for people looking to, well, beat our deck
The Weather Channel (http://www.weather.com/), so you can have more Storm knowledge than anyone else


Taken from the opening post on the first page

[Tom T]

Played against Pox not too long ago, and I pretty much got destroyed. Got stuck on one card in hand game 1, and on zero lands in game 2 (Sinkhole). I wasn't really sure what a good strategy would be to beat it except to board in any extra copies of Duress we might have in the board and just jam our discard early. Six discard spells feels like it's far too few, but even seven felt like it probably wouldn't get there. Also, sideboard space is limited because we're already running 4+ cards against Miracles, 3+ cards against Mav/D&T, and likely at least three flex spots for utility spells like Chain of Vapor or Disfigure. What's everyone thinking is the best strategy for dealing with heavy discard and heavy land-destruction? Just board in a few copies of Empty and try to race? I tried that, but I couldn't get cookin' before it got Hymned. Was also considering adding a Dark Confidant or two, but I feel like it clashes with Ad Nauseam and probably won't last against Smallpox, Innocent Blood, and Liliana. I'd appreciate any suggestions, and for the record, my deck was running 2 Petitions, 1 AdN, 1 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 14 lands. I've since switched one Petition to Empty and added a fifteenth land (3 basics, 8 fetches, 2 Underground, 1 Volc, 1 Badlands) in place of the third Duress. I've found that I usually outlast control without needing more than one discard, I've been getting Wasted pretty regularly, and I feel like a maindeck Badlands can be pretty handy.

Play out your leds, run 1/2 Sensei’s Divining Top and don't crack fetches unless you really have to. Lands, leds and cantrips are pretty good against Pox and top is just a house against discard in general.

[ThomasDowd]

The worst possible scenario is they stifle the "at end of turn return the cards to your hand and draw a card" delayed trigger.

I want to believe this happened. I would have laughed a lot. I also want to witness this.

[Ronald Deuce]

Play out your leds, run 1/2 Sensei’s Divining Top and don't crack fetches unless you really have to. Lands, leds and cantrips are pretty good against Pox and top is just a house against discard in general.

Thanks for the advice! Would you recommend boarding in a second copy of Past in Flames against Pox?

I've been considering retooling my sideboard after maindecking a copy of Empty. Here's what I was thinking:
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Dark Petition
3x Dread of Night
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Tropical Island
1x Past in Flames, Xantid Swarm, or Carpet of Flowers (not sure about this)

N.B.: I'm not sure whether it's worth it to keep the second Petition and put Echoing Truth in the board at this point. I included Petition because I'm not sure I like nixing the sixth tutor completely from the 75, and I threw in Echoing Truth because I've often had problems with double-Shaman or double-Sphere of Resistance. If I were to cut one or both of those cards, I'd probably throw in a couple of copies of Disfigure or 1x Disfigure, 1x Duress (to make a 3:4 Duress/Therapy split). Maybe a second Hurkyl's depending on how the meta develops here.

What's everyone think of this strategy?

[OlegtheSuper]

@JamieW89, please check mail box

[skyout]

My currently local meta has been overrun with players running both lands and punishing loam. Do you guys have any suggestions for sideboard options for these match ups?

I'm currently running this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95293).

[ScottW]

Why does it seem like everybody is now playing 14 lands?

[Blastoderm]

Why does it seem like everybody is now playing 14 lands?

I think people saw Caleb's success with his 14 land build. I guess it's fine if you don't expect Wasteland decks, and I usually see people on 15 lands side out one vs Miracles.

[Sloshthedark]

Why does it seem like everybody is now playing 14 lands?

the land somehow looks like an "easy cut" ... you can ask the same about 2 Islands, the answer is simple - netdecking


I think people saw Caleb's success with his 14 land build. I guess it's fine if you don't expect Wasteland decks, and I usually see people on 15 lands side out one vs Miracles.

= netdecking // I don't know why I'd go down a land when long game is a reasonable expectation a deck diluted by heavy SB, I do the opposite - substitute fetches for real lands if available, basicaly SBing out only basics only vs. combo

[Togores]

My currently local meta has been overrun with players running both lands and punishing loam. Do you guys have any suggestions for sideboard options for these match ups?

I'm currently running this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95293).

Play 2 echoing truth in the sb. Its good vs tegg and chalice (even 2 chalice) also good vs spheres because of its castable of basics.

[Ronald Deuce]

Why does it seem like everybody is now playing 14 lands?

I'm pretty new to the deck and I started by running 14 because I saw that a lot of lists were. I've been vacillating between including a fifteenth and including a third Duress because I kept finding that on 14, I would get Wasted out of the game really quickly, and on 15, I'd just draw a ton of lands in my openers. Two tournaments ago, I got hosed by Pox because Sinkhole can really wreck decks that run a minimal number of lands, and a few weeks back I got Wasted twice by a Maverick player. Maybe my opponents got lucky draws, but I'm not sure 14 is a safe bet if there's a significant amount of land-hate in the metagame. I tried running a Badlands last time I ran the deck and it worked out pretty well. I misplayed really hard in my first match, so I went 1-2, but I'm thinking a fifteenth land is probably a good idea.

So Sunday I played three rounds and (as I said) I went 1-2. Empty the Warrens did a TON of work, so I'm keeping it in the main in place of a second Dark Petition.

Round 1: Twelve-Post/Sixteen-Post(?) (1-2)
G1: Made the Past in Flames-Tendrils chain in game 1 while my opponent was configuring for Eldrazi.
G2: I stormed out for 12 goblins (turn 3?), but my opponent used Expedition Map to find a Tabernacle. He kept expanding and I lost almost all the goblins in short order without the resources to stage a comeback.
G3: I misplayed this game HARD. I started by hitting paydirt with two Therapies, then I stormed out a bunch of goblins. At this point, a reasonable player would've sacrificed two goblins to strip the Wurmcoil Engine and the Conduit of Ruin out of the opponent's hand, then swung for the fences. I, however, forgot Cabal Therapy has flashback, and I passed the turn. Not my finest hour. Wurmcoil, Conduit, and Kozilek sealed the deal, though it was a hard-fought victory for my opponent.

I think this deck is a recent brew, but it's a good one. Excellent sideboard answers, quick ramp for hard-casting Eldrazi, excellent creatures like Wurmcoil (maybe Batterskull?), and a lot of utility cards like Tabernacle and Maze of Ith. As I recall, the sideboard was packing serious business, including at least three each of Chalice and Sphere of Resistance. Interesting list that I'm interested in examining more closely next time I see the guy who owns it. My errors aside, this was a really good match all around.

Round 2: Jund (1-2)
G1: I stormed out 12 Goblins on turn 1. My opponent scooped furiously.
G2, G3: My recollection is a bit patchy, but I got Junded out. Retrospectively, I probably should've kept only a single Empty and added some disruption to the deck. I didn't (boarding in two more Empties), and it didn't pay off. In, I think, G2, I got Hymned really hard and I couldn't get back into the game. The third game, I think, I stormed out goblins again, but he was prepared to swing with Dark Confidant and Tarmo, all while sitting on a hand with both Maelstrom Pulse and Pyroclasm. I couldn't find a way through. Thoughtseize was difficult in both G2 and G3, but I could have played around it with a second Past in Flames.

I think I could've done better in this matchup if I'd boarded in a second Past in Flames and maybe a third Duress instead of running three copies of Empty. In retrospect I was pretty much walking into the boatload of hate Jund can bring against large-scale token generation, but I was really worried about Hymn. If I were to play the match again, I would board in a second copy of Past in Flames without question. Surprisingly, this was the first match I'd played against Jund. Lesson learned, I guess.

Round 3: Pox (2-0)
G1: I managed to avoid both Hymn and Sinkhole this game, and it paid off with a big Tendrils even after getting Inquisitioned and Blackmailed.
G2: 12 Goblins on turn 1.

I think I lucked out pretty hard in game 1, and after boarding, I think I lucked into my opponent's not going Dark Rit->Engineered Plague. This was the same guy who'd burned out my entire hand G1 and blown up my three lands G2 two weeks ago. In game 2, though, I noticed a line of play I wouldn't have considered, and which I would have been unable to pull off without an Empty in the main (I only sided in a Past in Flames). He played first, and I was sitting on a hand with 2 lands, 2 Infernal Tutors, 2 LEDs, and a Lotus Petal. My first draw was a Dark Ritual, so I just went off and my opponent conceded. [EDIT: N.B.: I kept an LED on the board when I comboed in case I got hit with Engineered Plague or something rather than going for 14 Goblins by chaining another Tutor. Every little Lotus Petal helps!]

So Empty the Warrens has a lot of issues, primarily the presence of cards like Tabernacle, Deathrite, Engineered Explosives, Wurmcoil Engine, and Batterskull, and in this deck we shouldn't count on Emptying for more than ten or twelve goblins in a realistic scenario. With all that said, I think it's an excellent main-deck singleton in a deck that runs a maindeck Badlands. I won two games off a turn-1 combo with Empty in the main, and I really should've won a third game with it except that I was being an idiot. I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to run three copies in the 75, but at least two seems like a pretty reasonable configuration against decks that can't rush a Batterskull and aren't running heavy token-hate. For the time being, my sideboard is the same as the one I posted a week ago, but I'm considering replacing the third Empty with a second Dark Petition for less "go-for-broke" matchups. Anybody have any ideas?

[Sloshthedark]

R2 - multiple EtW vs. Jund is not advisable, DRS decks can often race you

R3G2 - you have a Tutor chain here, no worries about Plague

[Ronald Deuce]

R3G2 - you have a Tutor chain here, no worries about Plague

Whoops! Didn't think of the whole "find another diamond" thing. Wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten to cast Tutor without hellbent. Thanks for mentioning it!

Also, right on about Deathrite.

[B88]

hi everyone! i've started to play the deck just one month ago. but after some testing online and in a tournaments i saw that:

1) there's need 5 tutors (i'm playing 2 nauseam because there are many discard decks, random decks and miracles as well)
2) 14 lands with 3 basics are enough, the only problems is that we have to play tropical in the SB
3) confidant and the second ToA in the sb are the best answer against miracle (wich is the only deck i have afraid)
4) i'm no sure about empty, it seems work but is not a killer imho
this is the list:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Sensei’s Diving Top
2 Preordain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eyed Diamond
2 Underground Sea
1 Badland
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Dark Confidant
3 Dread of Night
1 Tropical Island

[CabalTherapy]

hi everyone! i've started to play the deck just one month ago. but after some testing online and in a tournaments i saw that:

1) there's need 5 tutors (i'm playing 2 nauseam because there are many discard decks, random decks and miracles as well)
2) 14 lands with 3 basics are enough, the only problems is that we have to play tropical in the SB
3) confidant and the second ToA in the sb are the best answer against miracle (wich is the only deck i have afraid)
4) i'm no sure about empty, it seems work but is not a killer imho
this is the list:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Sensei’s Diving Top
2 Preordain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eyed Diamond
2 Underground Sea
1 Badland
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Dark Confidant
3 Dread of Night
1 Tropical Island

1) It's important that people come to their own conclusions but the "5-tutor necessity" is something that was discussed by Carsten Kötter already some years ago.
2) Also a thing I learnt from Carsten back in those years. This deck works well with 14 lands (that is why most of the times the Swamp gets boarded out in some MUs) but there are decks where you want to make
your landdrops safely. I wouldn't leave the house without 15 lands. Mr. Turtenwald (let's not talk about if he is popular or not) wrote somewhere on his take on UWR Delver (post-TNN) that it is the worst thing to mull because of no lands in hand (forget about Petals, they don't support a certain boardstate)
3) Never played Confidant but it seems to be very player dependent. Second Tendrils certainly is a solid option.
4) I share you thoughts here.

All in all, I tend to have another view on the list. There are some things that, in my opinion/experience, are contradictions or problems such as: 14 lands and Top, 7 discard spells (I think 6 and 2nd PiF are the best way), not sure about the 2nd Island in context of 14 lands (and your very black SB) since I never played such a configuration. Also, I would recommend running at least one Krosan Grip which is superior to the 4th Decay. It is especially good against MUD where you can Grip a Golem. I managed to Grip a Blood Moon last week with one Petal (my two duals where tapped).

[B88]

All in all, I tend to have another view on the list. There are some things that, in my opinion/experience, are contradictions or problems such as: 14 lands and Top, 7 discard spells (I think 6 and 2nd PiF are the best way), not sure about the 2nd Island in context of 14 lands (and your very black SB) since I never played such a configuration. Also, I would recommend running at least one Krosan Grip which is superior to the 4th Decay. It is especially good against MUD where you can Grip a Golem. I managed to Grip a Blood Moon last week with one Petal (my two duals where tapped).

against Mud krosan on golem seems hard ihmo (4 mana) but i see the point.
14lands and top is not a contraction, i mean , top still the best card against a field with control decks and discard spells and help with the second nauseam as well :smile:

[CabalTherapy]

against Mud krosan on golem seems hard ihmo (4 mana) but i see the point.
14lands and top is not a contraction, i mean , top still the best card against a field with control decks and discard spells and help with the second nauseam as well :smile:

Yes, it is hard but still possible. You take their number one clock in that way. I could see 14 lands, 2 AdN, and 1 Chrome Mox for better flips.

[BeardTron]

Whew ...this Round 10 Storm v Miracles match is rough. Storm player took a shit line and I bet it'll cost him the match.

Had 4 cards in yard, 3 lands in play (w one fetch) and his hand was Petal, Cabal Rit , Cabal Rit, Tutor.
Crack fetch, crack petal, play 1 cabal Rit to gain Threshold then next Cabal and Tutor for PiF. Instead he runs out both his rituals and just makes 10 goblins ....

Also played his discard super early so had no insurance on combo turn ...

[Sloshthedark]

Whew ...this Round 10 Storm v Miracles match is rough. Storm player took a shit line and I bet it'll cost him the match.

Had 4 cards in yard, 3 lands in play (w one fetch) and his hand was Petal, Cabal Rit , Cabal Rit, Tutor.
Crack fetch, crack petal, play 1 cabal Rit to gain Threshold then next Cabal and Tutor for PiF. Instead he runs out both his rituals and just makes 10 goblins ....

Also played his discard super early so had no insurance on combo turn ...

for some reason can't see replay now, but until the combo turn I'd have played the same only fetched prior to drawing... if he failed to see the Pif line or played around whatever, well... there was a plenty of small mistakes in the mirror match D1, and Caleb made some stupid mistake R10...

edit - can see now, failed to achieve threshold... ironicaly enough the +2B would win even in the EtW line... and wins nonetheless =D

[BeardTron]

for some reason can't see replay now, but until the combo turn I'd have played the same only fetched prior to drawing... if he failed to see the Pif line or played around whatever, well... there was a plenty of small mistakes in the mirror match D1, and Caleb made some stupid mistake R10...

edit - can see now, failed to achieve threshold... ironicaly enough the +2B would win even in the EtW line... and wins nonetheless =D

Ya he still pulled it out. Ya, I was a bit surprised to see Caleb stumble a bit. Still got there. Sometimes the deck is good to us despite some errors :)

[thefringthing]

The two Top 8 lists from the SCG New Jersey Legacy Open this weekend:

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Other Blue Fetchland
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dark Petition
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony

Caleb Scherer: +1 Rain of Filth, +1 Dark Petition
Ross Merriam: +1 Other Blue Fetchland, +1 Cabal Therapy

Caleb's Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Disfigure
1 Rebuild
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island

Ross' Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Tropical Island

[n0ct3m89]

Does anyone else think that game 3 of the semis ross should have cast tendrils before ad naus?

Board state is
Opponent
3 lands
Knight and bib in play
Thalia, teeg, lilly in hand
19 life

Ross
5 life
Casts probe for life
Brainstorm
Chain (bouncing the in play teeg)
Rit
Rit
Petal
Ponder?
Ad naus with 4 availible. Dies to flipped decay and crit
(Has tendrils in hand)

If he tendrils first, gains a bunch, then reloads with ad naus his opponent can die to his own bob trigger, as well as can't replay both hatepieces without a land. He could also play lilly and edict his bob, but that line leaves him with no chance

[nevilshute]

Does anyone else think that game 3 of the semis ross should have cast tendrils before ad naus?

Board state is
Opponent
3 lands
Knight and bib in play
Thalia, teeg, lilly in hand
19 life

Ross
5 life
Casts probe for life
Brainstorm
Chain (bouncing the in play teeg)
Rit
Rit
Petal
Ponder?
Ad naus with 4 availible. Dies to flipped decay and crit
(Has tendrils in hand)

If he tendrils first, gains a bunch, then reloads with ad naus his opponent can die to his own bob trigger, as well as can't replay both hatepieces without a land. He could also play lilly and edict his bob, but that line leaves him with no chance

When he casts Ad Nauseam he is tapped out with 3 mana floating.

[n0ct3m89]

Didnt ross draw delta for the turn giving 9 mana all said and done?

[nevilshute]

Ross untaps with 4 lands in play as his only permanents, having just EoT chain of vapored Thalia. His hand is: tendrils, AdN, dark rit, probe, chain of vapor. He draws for the turn: brainstorm. He then probes, dropping from 5 to 3 life and probe draws him a cabal rit. His hand is now: tendrils, AdN, dark rit, cab rit, chain, brainstorm. He casts brainstorm and gets: delta, tutor, decay. He then spends a completely unreasonable amount of time - almost 4 full minutes - resloving this brainstorm. He seems to be - and totally fair to be so - quite flustered and ends up putting back delta and decay leaving him with a hand of: tutor, tendrils, AdN, cab rit, dark rit, chain. He has 3 untapped lands (trop, usea, swamp). Storm is 2.

Patrick was saying that he thought AdN and decay were the two obvious cards to put back. He could have then made his land drop (delta) and had 4 untapped lands. If he does this he can: crack delta, get another dual. Tap swamp cast dark rit (storm3), infernal tutor show cab rit (storm4). Cast 2x cab rit (storm6) He now has BBBBBB floating and untapped usea, trop and red dual. He then taps usea to cast chain on teeg (storm7). His hand is now tendrils and he can deal Keating 16 dmg. Keating is then at 3 life and will untap with dark confidant in play. There should be something like 8-10 cards that kill him: his 3 leylines, 2-3 knights 3 Liliana, 1 deluge maybe. He instead opted for the hail mary AdN from 3 life with BBB floating and tendrils in hand, if he finds one of his 3 petals or any ritual before dying he wins. Some combination of a land and an LED also gets him there.

I don't honestly know which has the worst odds.

Here's the kicker though...: Ross used up a petal to EoT cast chain of vapor on Thalia in Keating's end step, which - if you think about it - ended up costing him 2 storm at the gain of 1 mana. The extra mana tapped on your own turn to pay for Thalia's tax from the Chain of Vapor is saved in that you got to keep the petal. Then what he does is target his own petal first and sac a land to copy chain onto Thalia for yet another storm. That is 2 extra storm by my count. Which - as it panned out - would have gotten him there and the one mana loss would not have been an issue.

It's hard to make the correct decision through all that hate with so much pressure though and he had no way to know that it would have gotten him there.

[Ronald Deuce]

Sounds like a pretty good weekend for Storm all around! At the local, finally came home with a winning record with this deck. Surprised, too; had two terrible matchups, but managed to K.O. Maverick!

R1: Death and Taxes (0-2)
G1: Couldn't find business before Thalia hit the table. So it goes, I guess. He topdecked it, too, so I didn't have any way to knock it out early.
G2: Made a hideously stupid play here. I sided out one Cabal Ritual because I was worried about getting Thalia-ed again. Turns out Tutor for Cabal Ritual was the only play I could make to get to ten spells, and I'd sided it out D: Lost to an opponent on 2 life because I didn't draw a critical mass in time to seal it away. Gotta laugh at myself over this one.

R2: Dead Guy Ale(?) (2-0)
G1: Lots of tokens made an appearance, but the opponent's Sword of Body and Mind actually saved me. I milled ten, including some rituals, a Tutor, and a Past in Flames. Opponent conceded.
G2: Kept a no-lander with a ton of gas. Drew into a land and went off, and the guy conceded again. I made an error here, too, in that I searched up Empty the Warrens instead of Tendrils only to notice that I'd cast ten spells. Guess it didn't matter here, but I need to be more careful.

R3: Maverick (2-0)
G1: Stormed for 10-14 Goblins turn 1
G2: Rinse and repeat

Whew! So Empty definitely provides a quick out. I'm thinking about moving Ad Naus to the board because I've not gotten much use out of it lately. Also, I'm finding that red mana's never really an issue with a Badlands and a Volc in the main. What's everyone think of a second maindeck Dark Petition instead of AdN? [EDITED for clarity:] I keep having the potential for a sub-5 amount of mana (excluding things like LED), so I can't cast Ad Naus quickly, and it feels like Empty is a better quick-draw, so I haven't had any reason to tutor for it. Petition's also slow, though, and it can be a tad finnicky, so I'm not totally sure yet. Any thoughts?

All in all, a pretty good weekend, even if I got more than my daily value of salt in rounds 2 and 3. I finally feel like I'm learning how things work, even if I'm still making stupid errors occasionally. It cost me the match in round 1, but that was the only time I did anything that really failed hard yesterday. I'm afflicted with a curse of some kind, in that I seem to blunder into a match loss every first round, then turn things around afterward.

[Blastoderm]

@nevilshute

Thanks for the summary and your analysis. As for the chain of vapor EOT, it's a hard decision since you have no idea what you're going to draw (cabal ritual off probe and tutor off brainstorm). A few of these Storm losses on camera could have been easily solved by Empty the Warrens. I've been playing with Ad Nauseam in the SB and Empty in the maindeck. It's a matter of preference I guess but Empty allows you to go off way more often turn 1/turn 2 (I also play 2 dark petition). It's also easier to go through Daze and Pierce since you only need 4 mana post-tutor (you need 5 for AdN and at least 5 for PiF). I'm fairly new to Storm but have been playing with this configuration at my local with very good results. Perhaps AdN main is better vs a Miracles infested meta and Empty is better in a Delver infested meta (which is exactly what mine is).

[Narcind]

I was watching that game live, and it was so frustrating to try and come up with winning lines, since you're always just off. I personally think I would've just gone for the tendrils to put him to 3, and hope that his confidant kills him, which it unfortunately wouldn't have, as it flipped a land.

My gut feeling still tells me that's the correct line of play (including the eot chain on the thalia) though, but I haven't done any math around it, so I might be wrong.

[Sloshthedark]

Here's the kicker though...: Ross used up a petal to EoT cast chain of vapor on Thalia in Keating's end step, which - if you think about it - ended up costing him 2 storm at the gain of 1 mana. The extra mana tapped on your own turn to pay for Thalia's tax from the Chain of Vapor is saved in that you got to keep the petal. Then what he does is target his own petal first and sac a land to copy chain onto Thalia for yet another storm. That is 2 extra storm by my count. Which - as it panned out - would have gotten him there and the one mana loss would not have been an issue.

It's hard to make the correct decision through all that hate with so much pressure though and he had no way to know that it would have gotten him there.

I think the CoV play is more "obvious" that it seems as you have to hope for a cantrip to reach sufficient storm anyway, maybe he thought the same way in chaining cantrips and wanted to be free on mana, but the +3 Storm for 1 mana is the best deal you can get .. I'd go the CoV my turn and Confidant route because you can realisticaly expect 2 flips after gaining 1x life and you have ToA for 14 in hand already... the line Ross took after the BS was ok i think - also I did not realize the AdN line at the time...
it was an interesting game and you could literarily feel the extreme pressure in the Brainstorm, there is no easy line and no shame in losing then... the both great and depresing part of playing Storm is in retrospect you can often see there was a path to victory

if anything else there was an opportunity window I'd personaly take T4 to IT for AD/CoV because the situation kind of gravitated towards AdN with ToA in hand and any hatepiece locks you again so IT for answer or ritual to improve your chances in AdN seems logical

edit - I'm not dissappointed by reading the Loam thread, once again there is something to learn or feel stupid about (RTFC), by CoV the Teeg Op can copy and bounce his Confidant making other lines than taken blank... I wonder if Ross took this into equation, because I obv. failed

[JamieW89]

Did pretty bad this weekend, in a local tournament. 3-2'd losing the mirror and miracles while beating Jund, Shardless and Burn.

One scenario from g3 vs Shardless might make for an interesting puzzle:

We are currently in our opponent's EoT, he spent this turn getting an ancestral visions of suspend, casting meddling mage on Infernal, +1ing Liliana and casting a Shardless Agent into Abrupt Decay which hit our LED. We have a top activation on the stack.

Him: 16 Life, 2 unknown cards in hand, Grafdiggers Cage, active DRS, Meddling Mage (Infernal Tutor), Liliana (6 counters), Shardless Agent and a bunch of lands in play.
Me: ~6 Life, 3 lands & Top in play, Chain of Vapor, Bayou, Lion's Eye Diamond in hand. Top 3 shows Cabal Therapy, Lion's Eye Diamond & Tendrils of Agony.

What is your line?

[Sloshthedark]

Did pretty bad this weekend, in a local tournament. 3-2'd losing the mirror and miracles while beating Jund, Shardless and Burn.

One scenario from g3 vs Shardless might make for an interesting puzzle:

We are currently in our opponent's EoT, he spent this turn getting an ancestral visions of suspend, casting meddling mage on Infernal, +1ing Liliana and casting a Shardless Agent into Abrupt Decay which hit our LED. We have a top activation on the stack.

Him: 16 Life, 2 unknown cards in hand, Grafdiggers Cage, active DRS, Meddling Mage (Infernal Tutor), Liliana (6 counters), Shardless Agent and a bunch of lands in play.
Me: ~6 Life, 3 lands & Top in play, Chain of Vapor, Bayou, Lion's Eye Diamond in hand. Top 3 shows Cabal Therapy, Lion's Eye Diamond & Tendrils of Agony.

What is your line?

draw with SDT eot, CT fow, bayou, play SDT, play led, draw with top, CV LED, CV SDT, replay SDT, replay led, play led 2, sac leds, look with SDT, SDT into Toa

[Togores]

Put cards like:

Top
Lions
Therapy
Tendrills

Flip top on unkeep

Cast both led - storm 2.
Cast top - storm 3 (2 lands left)
Tap top.
Response chain it - storm 4 (1 land left)
Copy chain on led, copy chain again on led. Copy finaly chain on mage.
now you draw the terapy
Play both leds - storm 6
Play top - storm 7 (no lands left)
Crack leds on black flip top to draw tendrills and cast it for 16

Gg

You could also have not fliped top on unkeep and casted a therapy. Not relevant.

Edit. 2 unknown cards has your opponent. So therapy is a muss. Just draw it instead of the lions eye and recast the top of the bayou in hand. You loose one storm for not double casting led but you cast one more spell.

This still looses to decay. But think he would have casted it before on your led.



Also played this weekend. Was 6 rounds but deoped after 5th.

Won vs taxes
Infect
Esper blade

Lost against 2 grixis delver.
Its like bug delver an hell of matchup.

SeiZe
Therapy
Daze
Fluster
Fow
Shaman
Null rod
Surgical
Bolts

Only won 1 game.
Dont know what to do.
Ideas? Multiple emptys?

[from Cairo]

Leave order as LED, Therapy and Tendrils.
Flip SDT to draw LED.
Draw SDT for turn.
Play land, play SDT(1).
Float UBB mana.
Play 2 LED(3 UBB).
Flip Top hold priority Chain of Vapor(4 BB) targets at SDT, LED, LED.
Draw Therapy, cast Therapy(5 B).
Cast 2 LED(7 B), cast SDT (8).
Flip Top hold priority make BBBBBB mana with LEDs, draw and cast Tendrils (9 BB floating)?

If we needed storm 9 or 18 pts of drain to beat active Deathrite Shaman?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Lost against 2 grixis delver.
Its like bug delver an hell of matchup.

SeiZe
Therapy
Daze
Fluster
Fow
Shaman
Null rod
Surgical
Bolts

Only won 1 game.
Dont know what to do.
Ideas? Multiple emptys?

That deck is the reason I started running 3 Empty in June. Very good against them.

[OlegtheSuper]

That deck is the reason I started running 3 Empty in June. Very good against them.

Unfortunatly they are running izzet staticaster/s

[nevilshute]

Unfortunatly they are running izzet staticaster/s

This is the sort of blanket statement that I can't get behind. First off, while a delver deck running a 3cmc, double color requirement answer to X/1's isn't impossible it's certainly far from everyone that does this. I'd say a minority. (It's far more likely that they'd run Electrickery imo but that's sort of beside the point.) The question is, are you, with your statement, suggesting that Empty is only valid if the opponent is running zero sweeper effects? Because then I'd have to disagree with that. It is tantamount to saying "ugh, Tendrils is bad cause they're running stifle".

Empty is a solid strategy vs Delver in my experience. Adding several copies post board is also a legit strategy as it increases your chances of naturally drawing them making 8-12 goblins on the first 1-3 turns more likely.

[Narcind]

Unfortunatly they are running izzet staticaster/s

Can't say I've ever seen that. I personally play grixis delver when I don't feel like playing ANT, and an early empty is VERY difficult to beat, you basically have to have a very nutty pyromancer draw, or you need your sweeper (electrickery, sudden demise, golgari charm are among the more common ones), that you usually only play as a 1-2 of in your sideboard.

[Plague Sliver]

Empty the Warrens is the real deal vs. Delver.

If you want to play Magical-Christmasland-I-always-have-my-one-Izzet-Staticaster, I'm afraid I can't help you there.

[Ronald Deuce]

In the past three tournaments in which I played (each three rounds; not a lot of Legacy around here), I got six turn-1 Empties, two of which caused an immediate concession, and three of which took the opponent about a turn to fold. I've found it such a nutso opener against discard and countermagic that I'm running one in the main. Against Maverick, which may be this deck's worst matchup, I shut out an opponent with two T1s in a row. (N.B.: These were only the turn-1s. There was at least one T2 and at least one T3-4, which were not as good.)

Three Empties is just crazy against controlling decks that don't go for the gold immediately (Belcher, All Spells a.k.a. "The Fastest Hands in the West," TES), and running three in the 75 gives us really good odds of hitting liftoff on the first two turns.

Regarding Staticaster, Electrickery, Pyroclasm, etc., those are only a problem if you don't go off very, very quickly, which is what Empty the Warrens is in our deck to do. Empty is pretty bad after about turn 3 because those cards exist, but I only saw someone pull an answer three times in those three tournaments. The first time was when a BUG player already had two Deathrites, a Vendilion Clique (I think), and a higher life total than I had; the second time, my opponent (lots-of-posts) cracked Expedition Map for Tabernacle; and the third time (Jund), I got bogged down by a fast Hymn to Tourach and the guy had boarded in both Pyroclasm and Maelstrom Pulse.

So I've only encountered mainboard hate problems twice in three tournaments. Tabernacle is the most expensive card in the format for a reason: it hoses a whole lot of decks, not just ours. Deathrite Shaman is also a big problem because it's so easy for a player with more than one to chump and EoT-drain. I've never seen the other cards in a maindeck, and I imagine they aren't common in multiples because their application is pretty limited. So I wouldn't worry too much about Staticaster.

[nevilshute]

In the past three tournaments in which I played (each three rounds; not a lot of Legacy around here), I got six turn-1 Empties, two of which caused an immediate concession, and three of which took the opponent about a turn to fold. I've found it such a nutso opener against discard and countermagic that I'm running one in the main. Against Maverick, which may be this deck's worst matchup, I shut out an opponent with two T1s in a row. (N.B.: These were only the turn-1s. There was at least one T2 and at least one T3-4, which were not as good.)

Three Empties is just crazy against controlling decks that don't go for the gold immediately (Belcher, All Spells a.k.a. "The Fastest Hands in the West," TES), and running three in the 75 gives us really good odds of hitting liftoff on the first two turns.

Regarding Staticaster, Electrickery, Pyroclasm, etc., those are only a problem if you don't go off very, very quickly, which is what Empty the Warrens is in our deck to do. Empty is pretty bad after about turn 3 because those cards exist, but I only saw someone pull an answer three times in those three tournaments. The first time was when a BUG player already had two Deathrites, a Vendilion Clique (I think), and a higher life total than I had; the second time, my opponent (lots-of-posts) cracked Expedition Map for Tabernacle; and the third time (Jund), I got bogged down by a fast Hymn to Tourach and the guy had boarded in both Pyroclasm and Maelstrom Pulse.

So I've only encountered mainboard hate problems twice in three tournaments. Tabernacle is the most expensive card in the format for a reason: it hoses a whole lot of decks, not just ours. Deathrite Shaman is also a big problem because it's so easy for a player with more than one to chump and EoT-drain. I've never seen the other cards in a maindeck, and I imagine they aren't common in multiples because their application is pretty limited. So I wouldn't worry too much about Staticaster.

Sorry to nitpick but it's hard to keep reading after this :wink:

I am prepared to recognize that Maverick isn't a bye on the lvl of something like Goblins which some people might mistakenly think. And that Maverick can pose a lot of problems but to call it anything resembling ANT's worst matchup I just... just can't understand why you'd think so.

[UnsummonRoss]

Hi, Ross here.
I played ANT at SCG on Saturday and went "undefeeded" till round 1.
Played a regular list with 14 lands and DP. Ask if you want some answers.

[Ronald Deuce]

Sorry to nitpick but it's hard to keep reading after this :wink:

I am prepared to recognize that Maverick isn't a bye on the lvl of something like Goblins which some people might mistakenly think. And that Maverick can pose a lot of problems but to call it anything resembling ANT's worst matchup I just... just can't understand why you'd think so.

I've just had a ton of trouble pushing through once Thalia and/or Ethersworn Canonist hits, Gaddock Teeg makes the game unwinnable pre-board (and is still a problem post-board), Wasteland wrecks decks that don't have a lot of spares, and Deathrite Shaman plus any number of other creatures can clock us really quickly. Being able to GSZ for Gaddock is often enough for a lockout, and I haven't had a good run even with three Dread of Night, two Chain of Vapor. With two Disfigures in the board and three Empties in the 75, the match seems to be a lot better. I don't know (given the brevity of my last match).

Essentially, I keep finding that Mav has a ton of cards that stop us from doing anything. After boarding, it's still pretty dire given that it's got so many copies to throw at us. I might've just gotten supremely unlucky in my earlier games against Mav (consecutive hands of 3 Thalia, 1 Teeg and 4 Thalia, 1 Teeg), but I'm not enthusiastic about facing the deck again.

For the record, I haven't played against MUD and Miracles has some serious lockout potential in game 1, but I haven't posted such bad results against either in my (limited) play. I'll also concede that Empty the Warrens appears to help a whole lot.

Out of curiosity, what do you think is the worst matchup? Decks with a lot of prison-cards (MUD, 12-Post, Mav, D&T) have appeared worse for me than ones with heavy countermagic (Miracles, Delver) simply because I've been able to grind through and go off after they've gone into topdeck mode. Initially, I thought Pox/8-rack was a terrible matchup, but Empty seems to have solved that problem.

I'm realizing that I've been talking about Empty a lot lately, and I'm starting to feel like it might be a "training wheels" card. Definitely useful in a variety of matchups from what I've seen, though. What's your experience shown to be the real beasty matchups, and how would you recommend playing against them?

[skyout]

I've just had a ton of trouble pushing through once Thalia and/or Ethersworn Canonist hits, Gaddock Teeg makes the game unwinnable pre-board (and is still a problem post-board), Wasteland wrecks decks that don't have a lot of spares, and Deathrite Shaman plus any number of other creatures can clock us really quickly. Being able to GSZ for Gaddock is often enough for a lockout, and I haven't had a good run even with three Dread of Night, two Chain of Vapor. With two Disfigures in the board and three Empties in the 75, the match seems to be a lot better. I don't know (given the brevity of my last match).

Essentially, I keep finding that Mav has a ton of cards that stop us from doing anything. After boarding, it's still pretty dire given that it's got so many copies to throw at us. I might've just gotten supremely unlucky in my earlier games against Mav (consecutive hands of 3 Thalia, 1 Teeg and 4 Thalia, 1 Teeg), but I'm not enthusiastic about facing the deck again.

For the record, I haven't played against MUD and Miracles has some serious lockout potential in game 1, but I haven't posted such bad results against either in my (limited) play. I'll also concede that Empty the Warrens appears to help a whole lot.

Out of curiosity, what do you think is the worst matchup? Decks with a lot of prison-cards (MUD, 12-Post, Mav, D&T) have appeared worse for me than ones with heavy countermagic (Miracles, Delver) simply because I've been able to grind through and go off after they've gone into topdeck mode. Initially, I thought Pox/8-rack was a terrible matchup, but Empty seems to have solved that problem.

I'm realizing that I've been talking about Empty a lot lately, and I'm starting to feel like it might be a "training wheels" card. Definitely useful in a variety of matchups from what I've seen, though. What's your experience shown to be the real beasty matchups, and how would you recommend playing against them?

I think one of the worst matchups for Storm is the Punishing Blue deck that won the most recent open. There are two players in my local meta that play this deck, and let me tell you, beating both a chalice and teeg game one is impossible. Plus, they tend to present a decent clock in the form of knight. After sideboard it gets better, but if they can set up it usually is game over.

[JamieW89]

draw with SDT eot, CT fow, bayou, play SDT, play led, draw with top, CV LED, CV SDT, replay SDT, replay led, play led 2, sac leds, look with SDT, SDT into Toa
Yes, that's the line I was looking for. But you (and Togores) weren't really my target audience :P.


Put cards like:

Top
Lions
Therapy
Tendrills

Flip top on unkeep

Cast both led - storm 2.
Cast top - storm 3 (2 lands left)

As you mentioned: Force of Will might be a problem (he had Force & Visions in hand).


Lost against 2 grixis delver.
Its like bug delver an hell of matchup.
[..]
Only won 1 game.
Dont know what to do.
Ideas? Multiple emptys?

I love Empty in the matchup, but my opponents weren't running as much hate as you describe (usually no Seizes and they often board out bolts unlike RUG, Swarm wasn't terrible for me because of this, despite them having Therapy).


Leave order as LED, Therapy and Tendrils.
Flip SDT to draw LED.
Draw SDT for turn.
Play land, play SDT(1).
Float UBB mana.
Play 2 LED(3 UBB).
Flip Top hold priority Chain of Vapor(4 BB) targets at SDT, LED, LED.
Draw Therapy, cast Therapy(5 B).
Cast 2 LED(7 B), cast SDT (8).
Flip Top hold priority make BBBBBB mana with LEDs, draw and cast Tendrils (9 BB floating)?

If we needed storm 9 or 18 pts of drain to beat active Deathrite Shaman?

Nice addendum, he didn't have any creatures to remove though (could have opted to discard shardless to liliana, but playing it was just better) :).


I'm realizing that I've been talking about Empty a lot lately, and I'm starting to feel like it might be a "training wheels" card. Definitely useful in a variety of matchups from what I've seen, though. What's your experience shown to be the real beasty matchups, and how would you recommend playing against them?
The hardest matchup, for me, is MUD, followed by other decks with permanent hate. I would rather play Delver(/Blade) all day as opposed to a mixture of DnT/Mav/Mud/Loam/Miracles.

Regarding Empty in general: I think the card is great in many matchups although it fails at times (both my losses this weekend were due to Empty to some degree; in the mirror he could tutor for AdN while I had just drawn Empty in g1. Versus Miracles I emptied and he had the Staticaster.) I doubt I'd leave home without one any time soon.

[theross]

Hi, Ross here.
I played ANT at SCG on Saturday and went "undefeeded" till round 1.
Played a regular list with 14 lands and DP. Ask if you want some answers.

Is this guy trying to impersonate me? If so I'm flattered but disappointed in how sloppy he was. I played 15 lands in my main deck!

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think one of the worst matchups for Storm is the Punishing Blue deck that won the most recent open. There are two players in my local meta that play this deck, and let me tell you, beating both a chalice and teeg game one is impossible. Plus, they tend to present a decent clock in the form of knight. After sideboard it gets better, but if they can set up it usually is game over.

What are you talking about? The deck doesn't do anything.

[skyout]

What are you talking about? The deck doesn't do anything.

Watch the last SCG coverage where he locked out two storm players in the finals and tell me that the deck doesn't do anything. Or better yet talk to the Ross who just posted.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Watch the last SCG coverage where he locked out two storm players in the finals and tell me that the deck doesn't do anything. Or better yet talk to the Ross who just posted.

That is anecdotal evidence and does not change the fact that the deck is both clunky and low on relevant cards. Sure, you're not beating Gaddock Teeg game one, but just one Chalice is not that hard to beat and they're often forced to cast Confidant which only makes it easier to kill them. Even after sideboarding, there are only two Thoughtseizes, so they're relying on Mox Diamond to do meaningful things.
You are playing the odds here though, and that always feels much worse than being in control of things. When you play against the deck three times and lose every time, it looks like there is nothing you can do, but the truth is that you're much more likely to win than they are.

[Fatal]

All you need is fast hand or discard and being on play. Sure they sometimes win via win a roll, turn 1 chalice for 1, turn 2 Teeg. But after sb you have answers, mostly you should win g2 (being on play - same rule as above), then g3 you need hand with decay, they cant develop hate pernaments so fast as you can go of - just eot kill hate, then go off or discard the rest of the hate.

[Sloshthedark]

I don't like the multi-EtW against DRS based decks


Yes, that's the line I was looking for. But you (and Togores) weren't really my target audience :P.
sorry to spoil the fun =/ .. I feel tempted by all the CoVs at the SCG to play it again, it's out of my 76 for more than a year



Out of curiosity, what do you think is the worst matchup?

I can give you 2 examples out of my LGS
1, Burn deck with 4 Eidolon, 4Pillar, SSG and sweepers (havent seen this one some time)
2, W hatebear deck with 8 Thalia, 7-8 Wasteland, 4 Leonin Arbiter and 3 Relic MD, SB? obv. Mindbreak trap, Rip and Cannonist because why not...

serious MUs - Thalia + Teeg MUs are no fun, I mean stupid in general, I don't feel intimidated by MUD because I don't face it and If I do the players are not very good or lucky... the worst MU I face is a well built Burg with very competent player (and the W hate deck...)


What are you talking about? The deck doesn't do anything.

when it does it's not nice, like all the nonU decks the can have anything from blanks to all the hate but are better set up to brutal starts, T1 double disruption is very annoying if they can pull it off... btw. T1 on play Gaddock Teeg anyone? (to add insult to the injury off 3 Diamonds and a GSZ the time it happend to me...) ... the thing is I also think it should be clunky and unimpressive most of the time (like my usual MUD matches) but I'm subject to the opposite more than I'd like to

[Izor]

I'm not as worried about 2 mana lock pieces as most people here (that icludes Chalice, Thalia, Teeg, Revoker, whatever). Those matchups are often a coinflip pre board and actually get slightly better for us post board.

You just have to keep hands that either goldfish on turn 2 or turn 3 with at least turn 2 Therapy. I can't remember exactly if it was Ross or Caleb, but I'm pretty sure I've seen hands kept against the later winner of the tournament that had like 3 cantrips. That's how that deck beats Storm, if the Storm player is durdling around playing cantrips. A hand like that is great against BUG decks and other decks with discard, but in a matchup with tons of 2 mana hatepieces, you should expect to be able to cast no more than one cantrip until the first hate piece comes down. In my eyes that makes a hand with 3 cantrips a pseudo mull to 5 already, which means I would have mulled that hand in the first place. I personally also board out up to all 4 Ponders against Chalice.dec. Load up on business (extra Storm spells or tutors out of the board) and try to race them.

Sure, they can win even if we're on the play if they draw Mox plus hate in teir opener. Just as we can also win on the draw if we have a turn 1 kill or a turn 1 discard spell. That evens out. Keating had a lot going right for him in the top 4 to beat two Storm decks in a row. Both Storm players just didn't get the common draws his deck can't beat. He also topdecked substantially better than both Caleb and Ross. That just happes sometimes, but it doesn't mean that this 4-color midrange deck is suddenly a terrible matchup for Storm.

If there's a matchup with Chalice I'm worried about, it's MUD. They have way more ways to drop a game-ender on turn 1.

[nevilshute]

I'm not as worried about 2 mana lock pieces as most people here (that icludes Chalice, Thalia, Teeg, Revoker, whatever). Those matchups are often a coinflip pre board and actually get slightly better for us post board.

You just have to keep hands that either goldfish on turn 2 or turn 3 with at least turn 2 Therapy. I can't remember exactly if it was Ross or Caleb, but I'm pretty sure I've seen hands kept against the later winner of the tournament that had like 3 cantrips. That's how that deck beats Storm, if the Storm player is durdling around playing cantrips. A hand like that is great against BUG decks and other decks with discard, but in a matchup with tons of 2 mana hatepieces, you should expect to be able to cast no more than one cantrip until the first hate piece comes down. In my eyes that makes a hand with 3 cantrips a pseudo mull to 5 already, which means I would have mulled that hand in the first place. I personally also board out up to all 4 Ponders against Chalice.dec. Load up on business (extra Storm spells or tutors out of the board) and try to race them.

Sure, they can win even if we're on the play if they draw Mox plus hate in teir opener. Just as we can also win on the draw if we have a turn 1 kill or a turn 1 discard spell. That evens out. Keating had a lot going right for him in the top 4 to beat two Storm decks in a row. Both Storm players just didn't get the common draws his deck can't beat. He also topdecked substantially better than both Caleb and Ross. That just happes sometimes, but it doesn't mean that this 4-color midrange deck is suddenly a terrible matchup for Storm.

If there's a matchup with Chalice I'm worried about, it's MUD. They have way more ways to drop a game-ender on turn 1.

Most sensible analysis I've read in this thread for a while

[MGK]

Watch the last SCG coverage where he locked out two storm players in the finals and tell me that the deck doesn't do anything. Or better yet talk to the Ross who just posted.

I played against the Abzan/Loam/Chalice hatebear deck at the open (the teammate of the guy who won the whole thing) - I easily won in two games after discarding chalice from his hand in both games. I think the matchup, as described, is probably closer to 50/50, bc chalice and teeg are that strong against us, but it is definitely winnable. -Brandon

[Le Chuck]

hi guys, in Italy, this weekend, is time for "Nebraska War" , one of our biggest event along the year. Thinking about the meta i'm gonna faced, surely miracles will be the most played deck among the field.
My question is, usually, what cards you remove against miracles?
My current list is:
G.A.N. Grinding ad Nauseam
Main deck
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands
1 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 scalding tarn
(15)
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
1 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
3 duress
3 cabal therapy
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
1 rain of filth
4 infernal tutor
2 past in flames
2 tendrils of agony
1 ad Nauseam
(60)
Sideboard
4 abrupt decay
3 dark confidant
2 xantid swarm
2 chain of vapor
2 disfigure
1 empty the warrens
1 bayou

Counting that I would like to board in 4 decays, 3 confidants, 2 swarms, empty and the bayou, for a total of 11 cards, what would you takes out?
I was thinking about something like, -1 badlands, -1 pif, -1 cabal ritual, -1 duress, -1 ad Nauseam, -2 lotus petals, -1 ponder... aaaand I'm stuck here, missing three slots. Any suggestions?
Also talking about sideboard, what you guys think about cutting the badlands for a main deck bayou and rising up at two empty in the side?
Forgive me for my poor English!! ^^ Thank you all in advance, have a great day!

[emidln]

I've encountered the chalice/loam with a white splash deck online a lot recently and have had good success against it. I side like this:

-1 Dark Petition
-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 Duress
-1 Preordain
-1 Rain of Filth
-1 Gitaxian Probe

+1 Ad Nauseam
+4 Abrupt Decay
+3 Chain of Vapor
+1 Rushing River
+2 Tropical Island

The only nonstandard thing I'm doing in my sideboard that affects this matchup is a Rushing River (which is also fine vs Miracles) and I have slightly more lands postboard than most 17 instead of 15 or 16.

My full list below:

// 2015Q4 Storm
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Rain of Filth
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Rushing River
2 Dread of Night
2 City of Solitude
2 Tropical Island

I don't like mulling for lack of lands, so I'm a little higher. I haven't had very good luck with Massacre over the last year or so, and thus no longer play it. Likewise, Xantid Swarm hasn't been worth it without seeing a lot of SnT decks in the metagame. City of Solitude helps greatly against Miracles (and it's fine anywhere you think you can swing it; I bring it vs SnT since Omni has disappeared). Abrupt Decay is the best answer to Counterbalance, and Chain of Vapor is the best answer to Eidolon while still being fine against hatebears. Dread of Night is a card that I'd like more of due to its effect vs cost, but DnT seems to be on the downswing. Dread of Night #1 does so much work that drawing 1 is a very big deal in the right matchups.

[Ronald Deuce]

The only nonstandard thing I'm doing in my sideboard that affects this matchup is a Rushing River (which is also fine vs Miracles) and I have slightly more lands postboard than most 17 instead of 15 or 16....2 Tropical Island

Rushing River's a pretty cool card. Why are you running it instead of, say, Echoing Truth or Hurkyl's? I guess the two pros that come to mind are that you can take out two hatepieces at a time even if they have different names and types, and three mana is harder for a Chalice to hit. That said, though, three mana seems like a lot, but with a lot of lands, you may not have trouble with it.

Speaking of lands, I've had trouble with flooding even with only 15, but I hope this plan works for you. In what matchups/situations have you felt the need for all 17?


I don't like mulling for lack of lands, so I'm a little higher. I haven't had very good luck with Massacre over the last year or so, and thus no longer play it. Likewise, Xantid Swarm hasn't been worth it without seeing a lot of SnT decks in the metagame. City of Solitude helps greatly against Miracles (and it's fine anywhere you think you can swing it; I bring it vs SnT since Omni has disappeared). Abrupt Decay is the best answer to Counterbalance, and Chain of Vapor is the best answer to Eidolon while still being fine against hatebears. Dread of Night is a card that I'd like more of due to its effect vs cost, but DnT seems to be on the downswing. Dread of Night #1 does so much work that drawing 1 is a very big deal in the right matchups.

Agreed on almost all counts. However, I'm becoming less and less enamored of Dread of Night because needing to find two is a problem for dealing with Gaddock, Canonist, Leonin Arbiter, etc. Of course, it stops Mom and a ton of other haters, so it might be a good thing to keep around, but I'm probably cutting back to two. Disfigure is super handy and can hit a wider variety of targets.

One thing I feel like I should mention (you may know this, but casual readers probably don't) is that Counterbalance's ability is a triggered ability, not an activated ability, so City of Solitude can only hinder a Miracles player by shutting down Top and stopping them from casting. It doesn't stop them from spinning the top during their turn and counterflipping, say, a 1- or 2-mana spell to stop our combo.

[emidln]

Rushing River's a pretty cool card. Why are you running it instead of, say, Echoing Truth or Hurkyl's? I guess the two pros that come to mind are that you can take out two hatepieces at a time even if they have different names and types, and three mana is harder for a Chalice to hit. That said, though, three mana seems like a lot, but with a lot of lands, you may not have trouble with it.

3s are harder for Counterbalance to flip, and I bring it in against Miracles. Hitting two different pieces of hate (not necessarily bears, but Chalice + Bear, 2x Artifact, CB + Mage, or Bear + Vial) has been crucial a few times. I've considered trying to rely less on Ad Nauseam in some matchups so as to be able to construct the deck to play more Rushing Rivers (as it's often one of the best cards to draw postboard).


Speaking of lands, I've had trouble with flooding even with only 15, but I hope this plan works for you. In what matchups/situations have you felt the need for all 17?

I like lands against Delver and against Miracles. They're also handy against the Chalice decks (which tend to have Wasteland). I very rarely, if ever, lose to RUG if I don't get mana screwed by Stifle/Wasteland.



Agreed on almost all counts. However, I'm becoming less and less enamored of Dread of Night because needing to find two is a problem for dealing with Gaddock, Canonist, Leonin Arbiter, etc. Of course, it stops Mom and a ton of other haters, so it might be a good thing to keep around, but I'm probably cutting back to two. Disfigure is super handy and can hit a wider variety of targets.

Disfigure is both hit by Mother of Ruins and doesn't handle the second Thalia. I don't play Dread of Night to deal with Canonist and Teeg, that's why I'm playing Chain of Vapors and Rushing River. Vyrn's Wingmare, Thalia, and Mom are more than enough to justify Dread of Night if you expect to be playing against D&T.

I have very little doubt that I'd always play Slaughter Pact before Disfigure. The only reasonable thing to Disfigure that you can't Slaughter Pact is Deathrite Shaman. I don't ever really want to kill that anyway.

One thing I feel like I should mention (you may know this, but casual readers probably don't) is that Counterbalance's ability is a triggered ability, not an activated ability, so City of Solitude can only hinder a Miracles player by shutting down Top and stopping them from casting. It doesn't stop them from spinning the top during their turn and counterflipping, say, a 1- or 2-mana spell to stop our combo.[/QUOTE]

Playing through a CB on some random CMC on your turn is a reasonable thing to do. It's not guaranteed, but you can test with 0 or 1 and expect to be able to win a majority of the games. Further, this isn't something that gets STP'd, Flusterstormed, or Pyroblasted. In addition to stopping SDT+CB from being a total lock, it also stops them from EOT Entreat being able to surprise get ya as well as stopping Snapcasters (and to a lesser extent VCliques) plus the obvious countermagic.

[Dr_D]

My full list below:

// 2015Q4 Storm
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Rain of Filth
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Rushing River
2 Dread of Night
2 City of Solitude
2 Tropical Island



Do you think having 61 cards strengthens the deck, or is it just so you can fit everything you want. I've been wanted to run 7 discard main, but can't figure out what I want to cut and was considering just running 61.

[Ronald Deuce]

Do you think having 61 cards strengthens the deck, or is it just so you can fit everything you want. I've been wanted to run 7 discard main, but can't figure out what I want to cut and was considering just running 61.

I wouldn't go up to 61. For some decks it's actually not much of a problem (I went undefeated at a local with an accidentally 61-card Dredge deck), but we're already doing a balancing act to try to hit our tutors and mana acceleration. How many lands are you running at this point? Preordains and Tops? I'm still juggling a fifteenth between main- and sideboard.

[Dr_D]

I wouldn't go up to 61. For some decks it's actually not much of a problem (I went undefeated at a local with an accidentally 61-card Dredge deck), but we're already doing a balancing act to try to hit our tutors and mana acceleration. How many lands are you running at this point? Preordains and Tops? I'm still juggling a fifteenth between main- and sideboard.

I play 15 lands, and I've been playing 1 preordain and 1 top so I can fit 9 rituals. My 61st card would be the seventh discard. Like Slosh said, the current trend of running 14 lands with 2 island is people netdecking Caleb Scherer.

[thefringthing]

Anyone have last-minute sideboard advice for me? I'm expecting a metagame that's a bit light on Miracles and heavy on Delver, especially Grixis. Right now I have sleeved up:

3 Abrupt Decay (Miracles, Chalice)
2 Xantid Swarm (Miracles, Show and Tell)
1 Tropical Island (Miracles, Chalice, Show and Tell, Loam)
2 Chain of Vapor (Hatebears, Miscellaneous)
2 Disfigure (Deathrite Shaman, Hatebears)
2 Dread of Night (Death and Taxes)
3 Empty the Warrens (Delver, maybe Miracles)

I plan to play something like the Scherer maindeck with the singleton Sensei's Divining Top. (1 Tendrils, 1 Past in Flames, 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 Dark Petition.)

[JamieW89]

Anyone have last-minute sideboard advice for me? I'm expecting a metagame that's a bit light on Miracles and heavy on Delver, especially Grixis. Right now I have sleeved up:

3 Abrupt Decay (Miracles, Chalice)
2 Xantid Swarm (Miracles, Show and Tell)
1 Tropical Island (Miracles, Chalice, Show and Tell, Loam)
2 Chain of Vapor (Hatebears, Miscellaneous)
2 Disfigure (Deathrite Shaman, Hatebears)
2 Dread of Night (Death and Taxes)
3 Empty the Warrens (Delver, maybe Miracles)

I plan to play something like the Scherer maindeck with the singleton Sensei's Divining Top. (1 Tendrils, 1 Past in Flames, 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 Dark Petition.)

In a delver heavy metagame I'd always make room for a copy of Carpet of Flowers.

[Ronald Deuce]

3 Abrupt Decay (Miracles, Chalice)
2 Xantid Swarm (Miracles, Show and Tell)
1 Tropical Island (Miracles, Chalice, Show and Tell, Loam)
2 Chain of Vapor (Hatebears, Miscellaneous)
2 Disfigure (Deathrite Shaman, Hatebears)
2 Dread of Night (Death and Taxes)
3 Empty the Warrens (Delver, maybe Miracles)

3x Empty is great. I second adding Carpet of Flowers. I'd replace Swarm with that.

[thefringthing]

I honestly don't understand what situations Carpet of Flowers is supposed to be good in. I get that it can shut off Daze and/or Spell Pierce sometimes, but that doesn't seem that great. It doesn't help much against Stifle. Can anyone elaborate on the card a bit, or link to a game video I can study where Carpet is clutch?

[Ronald Deuce]

I honestly don't understand what situations Carpet of Flowers is supposed to be good in. I get that it can shut off Daze and/or Spell Pierce sometimes, but that doesn't seem that great. It doesn't help much against Stifle. Can anyone elaborate on the card a bit, or link to a game video I can study where Carpet is clutch?

N.B.: I'm no expert, and I'm still learning how to play this deck.

With that having been said, perhaps I spoke too soon. People seem hot on Carpet and Xantid, but I've been having a bit of trouble with the added green cards that aren't Abrupt Decay. You're right that Carpet is excellent against Force Spike clones, and I thought it looked like a good accelerant against blue decks generally, but I'm not convinced it really helps that much. Seems like a great theoretical addition against decks with Islands, but there's no guarantee the extra mana will get us anywhere. Aside from helping us pay for parking versus soft counters, the thing that appealed to me for a while was that it can help us build up mana for a late-game combo (i.e., third try at Storming up after lots of Force, Hymn, etc.), but I've never seen the deck get far enough that it would be a real boon, especially when compared to cards that actively punch through threats. I feel like Xantid Swarm has the same problem: it gave me my one natural Tendrils so far, but that was because it got countered (+2 Storm!), so it's not that big a help against a lot of decks that can zero us if we don't have removal (Miracles) and I've never seen it do anything on the field (again, I'm not an experienced Stormer). I'd also be interested in some input on how/whether to use the two cards, so please, if I've missed something, let me know!

[Zombie]

Punishing Blue

A deck called Punishing Blue should:
1. Play Punishing Fire
2. Be blue

4c Loam that plays everything but blue is not that deck. That name always was, and still is, stupid and should be scrapped. Please do so.

[MGK]

I honestly don't understand what situations Carpet of Flowers is supposed to be good in. I get that it can shut off Daze and/or Spell Pierce sometimes, but that doesn't seem that great. It doesn't help much against Stifle. Can anyone elaborate on the card a bit, or link to a game video I can study where Carpet is clutch?

The two decks in particular where Carpet is a solid addition are RUG Delver and Miracles, and its decent against BURg delver variants as well. The value of running carpet varies on the matchup, but in particular:

1. When the opponent is targeting your graveyard with Rest in Peace or DRS, Carpet will generally provide more value than a cabal ritual.

2. When playing against stifle and wasteland, resources can be tight. Carpet can sometimes give you the extra few mana you need to get over the hump and go off, despite having your resources restricted.

Additionally, I've found that subpar opponents won't play appropriately against it; i.e. Dazing to remove an island of the field of play/not fetching blue sources. I've found that generally, unless you need to play it early, you should hold carpet to gain value, so your opponents will play more lands.

All that being said, I have been playing carpet for quite a while as a two of in my board, but have not been thrilled with it recently. The amount of RUG delver has decreased in the local meta's, and there are certainly more impactful cards that can be played in the miracles matchup (Dark Confidant comes to mind...). I'm not convinced its excellent in the Grixis matchup as of yet either. More testing to come...

-Brandon

[thefringthing]

For the record, I ended up running Carpet over Xantid Swarm but never saw them in the course of five rounds.

Also, when your Infect opponent is left with no interaction other than a Crop Rotation in game three of your win-and-in, don't go get Past in Flames like a donkey.

[Shaman]

Beside Surgical Extraction (and specific hate like Sadistic Sacrament), what do you find good against the mirror? Or simple accept the coinflip?

[Quasim0ff]

A deck called Punishing Blue should:
1. Play Punishing Fire
2. Be blue

4c Loam that plays everything but blue is not that deck. That name always was, and still is, stupid and should be scrapped. Please do so.

Nope, the deckname tells you what it does.

[Sloshthedark]

Beside Surgical Extraction (and specific hate like Sadistic Sacrament), what do you find good against the mirror? Or simple accept the coinflip?

to be the better player, I guess it qualifies as coinflip...
disruption - Flusterstorm (I don't like it, suffers the Silence problem pasivity and false security), actually saw Silence in Nebraska War coverage which is both exceptionaly terrible (card Silence) and great (who sees that coming?), Pyroblast - well if you have nothing else... GY fx - Extirpate - hard to play around, Crypt, SE - good T0-2)... opps can't win cards (Aegis of Gods, Leyline of Sancticity, Sacrament, Extract, to some degree Notion Thief) - the problem is none is 100% and it's really foolish if it doesn't work (Goblins, ToA in hand, don't give a fuck about cantrips)

[Zombie]

to be the better player, I guess it qualifies as coinflip...
disruption - Flusterstorm (I don't like it, suffers the Silence problem pasivity and false security), actually saw Silence in Nebraska War coverage which is both exceptionaly terrible (card Silence) and great (who sees that coming?), Pyroblast - well if you have nothing else... GY fx - Extirpate - hard to play around, Crypt, SE - good T0-2)... opps can't win cards (Aegis of Gods, Leyline of Sancticity, Sacrament, Extract, to some degree Notion Thief) - the problem is none is 100% and it's really foolish if it doesn't work (Goblins, ToA in hand, don't give a fuck about cantrips)

Why would Silence be terrible besides the mana issues?

[Sloshthedark]

Why would Silence be terrible besides the mana issues?

because it's worse than discard, 5Cing your manabase for it doesn't seem great (is if not expected)... btw.Tes is much worse MU now because of dropping Silence (and adopting more fetchlands)... also I don't think it's worth dedicating cards to the mirror match

[TheHeff]

Hey all, longtime legacy player here looking to pick up ANT in paper after playing it on MTGO for a few months now. I'm really liking the 2 PiF, 1 AdN, 2 preordain, 6 discard variety, feels really solid and consistent to how I like to play. My question is about manabase- I'm playing the standard green splash for sideboard cards, but am really disliking the bayou in addition to the trop. I've seen old lists where they had a badlands instead of the bayou, but I see the necessity of an extra green source against a deck like rug deliver. Anyone have experience with the badlands setup?

[Sloshthedark]

Hey all, longtime legacy player here looking to pick up ANT in paper after playing it on MTGO for a few months now. I'm really liking the 2 PiF, 1 AdN, 2 preordain, 6 discard variety, feels really solid and consistent to how I like to play. My question is about manabase- I'm playing the standard green splash for sideboard cards, but am really disliking the bayou in addition to the trop. I've seen old lists where they had a badlands instead of the bayou, but I see the necessity of an extra green source against a deck like rug deliver. Anyone have experience with the badlands setup?

depends on what are your SB plans (AD against Wasteland decks for example, lands in SB?) and how deep you go into G (AD only? Carpet? XS?others?), If you have EtW MD or red cards in the SB the Badlands is worth it (I used to play this most of the time), it leads to very reliable MD but SB games can get awkward at 1G land, you can also have 2Trop as Emidln does (a tradeoff between cantrips in the early game and rituals/consistency later)...

if you're playing online why not trying different setups there first...

[TheHeff]

depends on what are your SB plans (AD against Wasteland decks for example, lands in SB?) and how deep you go into G (AD only? Carpet? XS?others?), If you have EtW MD or red cards in the SB the Badlands is worth it (I used to play this most of the time), it leads to very reliable MD but SB games can get awkward at 1G land, you can also have 2Trop as Emidln does (a tradeoff between cantrips in the early game and rituals/consistency later)...

if you're playing online why not trying different setups there first...

Fair point, I probably should've specified a few more details. Here's my current list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Dread of Night
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warren

I do want to test this on mtgo, but I'd probably switch the Mistys to Tarns (which are like $40 each) was hoping to get the scoop before I jumped into it. Sounds like the advice is keep the two G duals since I'm heavy in SB G plans. PiF isn't hard to cast with petals and LEDs, too.

[Sloshthedark]

Fair point, I probably should've specified a few more details. Here's my current list:

I do want to test this on mtgo, but I'd probably switch the Mistys to Tarns (which are like $40 each) was hoping to get the scoop before I jumped into it. Sounds like the advice is keep the two G duals since I'm heavy in SB G plans. PiF isn't hard to cast with petals and LEDs, too.

Oh, ok, I'm totally ignorant of Modo prices, in your case I'd consider Trop+Bayou a better option

[OlegtheSuper]

Dear friends do we need decays vs grixis delver after game 1?

[skyout]

Dear friends do we need decays vs grixis delver after game 1?

Negative, I'd just bring a chain of vapor if you're worried about problem permanent like null rod, but there really isn't anything you should be scared of.

[Ronald Deuce]

Dear friends do we need decays vs grixis delver after game 1?

I've not been bringing in Decay for any matchups except Miracles up to this point (N.B.: the player base here isn't very big). I feel like our 1-mana removal is strong enough against someone who isn't running countertop that we probably don't need to stretch our manabase or jump through hoops for a 2-cost card that, for all intents and purposes, functions just like Chain or Disfigure. Does that sound reasonable? Again, I'm still learning the deck, so I'm not totally sure how often it's a good idea to bring in Decay or what to cut for it (I cut Preordains and Ponders last week and spent the whole time durdling until Jace and Gideon knocked me out).

I was running a singleton Echoing Truth in the 'board for dealing with double-Deathrite and the like, but I'm considering cutting it for something else. My sideboard's pretty much up in the air right now because I didn't draw more than a single sideboard card in games 2 and 3 of every round last week. I may need to learn how to shuffle again. I'm curious: how much work are Swarm and Carpet doing for people? I'd love to cut back my green sideboard cards to only 4x Abrupt Decay, but I haven't faced any Delvers lately, so I'm not sure whether it's a good idea.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I've not been bringing in Decay for any matchups except Miracles up to this point (N.B.: the player base here isn't very big).

You should definitely bring some copies against Shardless, at this point it's safe to assume they run either Meddling Mage or Arcane Laboratory. To be fair, some have Leyline of the Void or Notion Thief, but whatever. Obviously, you also want Decays against other decks if you don't have any one mana removal.



I'm curious: how much work are Swarm and Carpet doing for people?

Xantid Swarm is crazy good against Show & Tell, but doesn't do much otherwise. Most of the time, I think you're better served with Flusterstorms. Carpet is also very good, but it's not needed either. I like running them when I feel I have room, but usually, that's not true. GP SeaTac was the first tournament since 2013 I ran Carpets in. I'm no longer playing them at this point.

To answer the original question: I'm not boarding any removal against Grixis Delver, just Empties.

[JamieW89]

Went 3-0 in the legacy portion of a (somewhat small) mixed format invitational today (and 0-3 in Modern..). Played with a Doomsday sideboard, as I was expecting almost all decent legacy players to be on Miracles. Ended up facing the modern players in the losers bracket instead because of me failing in the modern rounds >.< (at least 3 Miracle decks did do well though). Ran pretty insane with two turn-1's (in 7 games..) and Hurkyl's being there whenever I needed it.

MUD: 2-1
g1: turn-1 3sphere, scoop.
g2: I go SDT, he makes Chalice@1, I upkeep top, play a land and pass. He plays something like turn-2 Lodestone and turn-3 Trinisphere. I then proceed to Hurkyl's Recall his stuff, untap, cast Doomsday and Tendrils him without a large drawspell in my deck because of his ancient tombs.
g3: I have a mediocre keep but I get to resolve a turn-1 top. I have a lethal line through Lodestone which I don't notice in time (fairly basic, needed the storm from flipping & recasting top, derp) so I make (lethal-2) goblins instead. Hurkyl's shows up two turns after to seal the deal. He apparantly opted to not bring in Thorn of Amethyst...

Burn: 2-0
g1: t1 PiF kill (from 6)
g2: He mulls, scries to the top, plays land, go. I Cabal Therapy for Eidolon and see Pillar, which he then casts. I untap and tendrils him to 1 and put myself at 22, after taking 16 damage from triggers (knew his entire hand from the therapy since his topdeck was land#2; if he had fireblast I'd have had to put him on 3 allowing a creature to be cast), nice pillar ;).

Elves: 2-0
g1: t2 PiF kill (thanks to him opting to cast Nettle Sentinel over Shaman turn-1...)
g2: t1 AdN kill with discard, welcome to legacy.

These matches didn't really help me convince them that Legacy is a fun and interactive format without that many quick kills and silly non-interactive decks, but at least I got revenge for my lame losses in their stupid format :P (Oh hey, no lands and my cantrips suck, I lose. Oh hey, this one card kills your deck, I win. Oh hey, I didn't draw my one card, I lose. Fun stuff.)

[CabalTherapy]

Berlin Legacyleauge Finals - Short Report

We had our Top16 Legacyleague finals yesterday. I was the 1st on the league standings after the whole year playing almost exclusively ANT. Obviously, I had to bring ANT to the tournament. Following list:

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Past in Flames
2 Preordain
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Extirpate
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor

I am very satisfied with this list and things went this way:

Round 1 - Death and Taxes
I had the turn two Ad Nauseam without mana left from 19 and hit a Petal and enough juicy to win easily. In the next game, he manages to overload the board with stuff like this new flying horse and other small
hate dudes to which I had to concede. I managed to win via a solid PiF loop on my second turn in game 3.
2:1
1-0

Round 2 - Shardless BUG
Nothing special to mention here. He mulliganed to six twice and I had two PiF loops rather easily assembled. The only interactions were Thoughtseize in game 2 and a Meddling Mage, which got bounced during the combo turn.
2:0
2-0

Round 3 - Grixis Delver Mr.MOCS JPA93
The most interesting match this day. I think I won the first game with a Ad Nauseam from 11 against a Deathrite Shaman after I discarded some two Forces. Apparently, he locked himself with Brainstorm and my draws were somewhat mediocre up to that point. The next one was a pleasure to play. He led with Delver and at some point played Therapy targeting me to which I responed with Brainstorm, knowing that he had Force and Surgical in hand. It resolved and after my Brainstorm he went for Extraction targeting Ponder, which I Flusterstormed with 3 copies. #valueplay The next turn, I played Xantid Swarm and after that won with Tendrils for 16.
2:0
3-0

Round 4 - ID
3-0-1

I was first on the standings which meant that I have won the league and the league finals; felt good because my meta is very aware of ANT and players build their decks accordingly. (Elves with Gaddock main for example.)
We won't have a league next year, only regular small tournament, so it felt strong to be the last undisputed champ of the legacy scene in Berlin. Thanks to all opponents and to Team MTG Berlin, especially to JPA who
stated that he obviously "conceded" for me after I smashed his creatures with my tendrils. :cool:

See you next year. "Stay Legacy" and "Pam Pam" to speak in Kai Sawawarix's words. :tongue:

[Miscanthus]

Went 3-0 in the legacy portion of a (somewhat small) mixed format invitational today (and 0-3 in Modern..). Played with a Doomsday sideboard, as I was expecting almost all decent legacy players to be on Miracles....


I'm curious about this. Given that this deck uses Infernal Tutor rather than Burning Wish, how does the Doomsday sideboard work, and how does it give you additional game against Miracles?

I ask because there is a fair amount of Miracles players in my meta also, and many are starting to get wise to the multiple Empty the Warrens plan.

[JamieW89]

I'm curious about this. Given that this deck uses Infernal Tutor rather than Burning Wish, how does the Doomsday sideboard work, and how does it give you additional game against Miracles?

I ask because there is a fair amount of Miracles players in my meta also, and many are starting to get wise to the multiple Empty the Warrens plan.

You board 4 Doomsday, 1 Emrakul, 1 Shelldock Isle as a package (and potentially a somewhat suboptimal sb card that you may want in some piles e.g. Wipe Away or Pithing Needle). Given the 3 cmc (CB) and the fact that you only need to resolve one spell makes it a solid win condition as long as they cannot deal with it.

If the opponent has a ton of outs in his deck postboard it's weak, but it shouldn't really be an expected plan and some of the removal they might want postboard won't answer it (Staticaster, EE, Plow). Jace doesn't answer it in most cases (16+ life and 7+ permanents required for him to live) because you activate SI in his endstep when he has it. Sometimes you just kill with Tendrils, but without a big drawspell (Ideas Unbound/Meditate) those lines aren't too common (the more SDT you run, the more often these do occur).

The downsides are the amount of slots (at least 6), # of matchups used (not many), and preferably an unaware opponent. Because of this I (and others) basicly never play it. But as I expected 50%+ of my non-terrible (at legacy) opponents to be on Miracles (and knowing they wouldn't expect it at all) I went with it.

[Miscanthus]

You board 4 Doomsday, 1 Emrakul, 1 Shelldock Isle as a package (and potentially a somewhat suboptimal sb card that you may want in some piles e.g. Wipe Away or Pithing Needle). Given the 3 cmc (CB) and the fact that you only need to resolve one spell makes it a solid win condition as long as they cannot deal with it.

If the opponent has a ton of outs in his deck postboard it's weak, but it shouldn't really be an expected plan and some of the removal they might want postboard won't answer it (Staticaster, EE, Plow). Jace doesn't answer it in most cases (16+ life and 7+ permanents required for him to live) because you activate SI in his endstep when he has it. Sometimes you just kill with Tendrils, but without a big drawspell (Ideas Unbound/Meditate) those lines aren't too common (the more SDT you run, the more often these do occur).

The downsides are the amount of slots (at least 6), # of matchups used (not many), and preferably an unaware opponent. Because of this I (and others) basicly never play it. But as I expected 50%+ of my non-terrible (at legacy) opponents to be on Miracles (and knowing they wouldn't expect it at all) I went with it.

Very interesting...
Might give that a try.

Thank you very much!

[Sloshthedark]

Congrats! what does a Storm player play in Modern? (storm?)

I went 3-1 (would be 4-0 (8-0)- if I haven't lost to my stupidity >:( ) in the weekend with funny 4Confidant, 4AD, 3 Bolt, 2 Needle SB =D



Very interesting...
Might give that a try.

Thank you very much!

I tested it a bit and it's playable even against 4 Terminus (which won't happen normaly), I think you can go down to 3DD easily while focusing on T2 DD, my cast DD goldfish was about T1,68, 20% fail till T4, the lategame is a bit problematic because other than Terminus a well timed clique can both interrupt the pile and race you, also Extraction is miserable

[Bittemommy]

Hi guys,

I am quit new to the format. I picked up ANT after playing it in proxie for a while. Yesterday I bought my last Underground Sea. So I can play my first Legacy tournament this sunday here in the Netherlands.
I have read some article about ANT and I fell in love with it. Just instantly. I don't have to make a thread about my love for this deck.
But I have some questions. Specially about boarding against the meta.
The deck I play:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Dread of Night
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Disfigure


What is the benefit of a Grim Tutor? Is it playable over an Dark Petition? How about a Rain of Filth?
Does anyone have a decent and updated sideboarding guide?

Thanks!

[Togores]

Congrats! what does a Storm player play in Modern? (storm?)

I went 3-1 (would be 4-0 (8-0)- if I haven't lost to my stupidity >:( ) in the weekend with funny 4Confidant, 4AD, 3 Bolt, 2 Needle SB =D




I tested it a bit and it's playable even against 4 Terminus (which won't happen normaly), I think you can go down to 3DD easily while focusing on T2 DD, my cast DD goldfish was about T1,68, 20% fail till T4, the lategame is a bit problematic because other than Terminus a well timed clique can both interrupt the pile and race you, also Extraction is miserable

How does a clicke wins you?
You put the land on top (cant be taken) and then just emrakul on bottom. So its the 4th card. The only I can think a clicke can do is block.

[Svyelunite]

I know this isn't related to the strategy or deckbuilding choices of ANT, but I haven't seen any posts about it and it made me wonder "Is nobody excited that Storm players everywhere are now getting a token?" Caleb Scherer did this for you! Rejoice!

[Sloshthedark]

How does a clicke wins you?
You put the land on top (cant be taken) and then just emrakul on bottom. So its the 4th card. The only I can think a clicke can do is block.

disrupts the classic LED->GP-> ToA kill after the attack thus giving an extra turn +3dmg, can mess up other piles depending on the situation


I know this isn't related to the strategy or deckbuilding choices of ANT, but I haven't seen any posts about it and it made me wonder "Is nobody excited that Storm players everywhere are now getting a token?" Caleb Scherer did this for you! Rejoice!

I'm not even using dice so can't appreciate...

[CabalTherapy]

Hi guys,

I am quit new to the format. I picked up ANT after playing it in proxie for a while. Yesterday I bought my last Underground Sea. So I can play my first Legacy tournament this sunday here in the Netherlands.
I have read some article about ANT and I fell in love with it. Just instantly. I don't have to make a thread about my love for this deck.
But I have some questions. Specially about boarding against the meta.
The deck I play:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Dread of Night
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Disfigure


What is the benefit of a Grim Tutor? Is it playable over an Dark Petition? How about a Rain of Filth?
Does anyone have a decent and updated sideboarding guide?

Thanks!

Welcome.
Basically you can find your answers in this thread's pages. Elaborating on specific choices/ why whis and why that/ and providing a sideboard guide are things that are too extensive and never entirely complete.


I know this isn't related to the strategy or deckbuilding choices of ANT, but I haven't seen any posts about it and it made me wonder "Is nobody excited that Storm players everywhere are now getting a token?" Caleb Scherer did this for you! Rejoice!

I don't think anyone besides Scherer wants to use such a token; even putting aside that there is no need of a "storm token" except for coverage reasons.

[emidln]

disrupts the classic LED->GP-> ToA kill after the attack thus giving an extra turn +3dmg, can mess up other piles depending on the situation

I usually use:

SI
GP
DR
FSM
ToA

T1: draw SI, hideaway FSM, stacking GP, DR, ToA
T2: draw GP, activate SI, cast FSM, take walk turn
T3: draw DR, attack for 15, GP, DR, ToA for 6

The worst that a VClique can do here is make Tendrils only deal 4. That's still 19 which is almost assuredly lethal vs Miracles. Barring that, there is a follow up attack (and they're down 6 permanents).

I suppose it would matter more if you were on the EOT Emrakul attack twice plan because of a known/suspected JTMS (where it can maybe deal an extra 3 damage). Although, if you're on that plan, I feel like you stack
some random bounce/removal spell as the card you draw on your second turn after DD.

[ScottW]

I have money to buy a Grim Tutor. Should I or has Dark Petition replaced this horribly expensive card?

[Ronald Deuce]

What is the benefit of a Grim Tutor? Is it playable over an Dark Petition? How about a Rain of Filth?
Does anyone have a decent and updated sideboarding guide?
Thanks!

Take everything I'm about to say with a grain of salt: I've only been playing AnT for a few months now, and I still make a lot of mistakes and misplays.

The advantages to Grim Tutor over Dark Petition are as follows, from the most likely to the least likely of scenarios:

—Grim is cheaper if you're looking for an answer to hate permanents a turn or two before you go off.
—If you haven't drawn more than one Ritual effect, it's easier to use Grim because Dark Petition sets you back by five mana if you can't attain spell mastery. This means that, even if you can't combo immediately, Grim can help you set up a combo turn for a smaller initial investment than Petition would allow. Also, if you have a large number of LEDs and few rituals, it's easier to cast Grim than it is to cast Petition.
—If Grim gets countered, you've only lost three mana instead of five, meaning that if you have another tutor effect or more Rituals in hand, you can use them more easily.

Someone posted an explanation for running singletons of both Grim and Dark a few pages back. I'd recommend searching it up. I think it was the list that's on mtgtop8 with a Desolation Twin listed instead of Dark Petition for some reason. The most compelling argument for Grim is that it gives you a good chance of finding a card you really, really need (like Abrupt Decay versus Miracles) the turn BEFORE you want to combo. With that having been said, there are a lot of reasons to use Dark Petition instead, and the monetary cost of Grim is actually pretty far down the list.

—If you play Ad Nauseam, any Dark Petition you draw costs you five life. Any Grim costs you three, but if you want to cast that Grim, it costs three more life, meaning that Petition would cost 5, but Grim would cost 6.
—Grim costs three mana, and Petition costs five. Spell mastery reduces the cost of Petition to two (if you can put up five mana to start), but Grim still costs three. Unless your opponent wipes out your graveyard, there are very few situations in which you won't have spell mastery before casting a tutor. I've only had that happen once with only Petition, and I've been playing this deck for a couple of months.
—If you tutor for Past in Flames, the cost for playing Petition, Grim, or Infernal Tutor is effectively doubled if you cast it again from your graveyard (cast tutor from hand, then cast it from graveyard in the same turn). So Infernal is the cheapest/easiest, costing 2x2 (4 total); Petition is tied with Infernal numerically, but requires more mana up front, costing (5-3)x2 (4 total); and Grim is most expensive, costing 3x2 (6 total).
—Grim costs hundreds of dollars.

I'd play Petition over Grim because the situations in which Grim is better are more rare than the ones in which Petition is better. I can see the merit of running one of each, but I'm sticking with at least one (for now, 2x) Petition. If either Grim or Petition gets countered, we're in trouble, and it's easier to cast a Petition off of flashback for the same reason it's easier to cast it if it's in our hand: if we're drawing/playing rituals (which our deck really needs to do in order to win), Petition comes out as a smaller mana investment. If we need to find specific cards from the sideboard, I feel like adjusting the sideboard is the solution rather than running a different tutor that only really helps us if we need to tutor for a sideboard card.

Rain of Filth looks AWESOME when it's late in the game and we need another source of mana to juice up the combo, but I'm not sure how often that happens. I'd love to find another mana source for the deck (Preordains aren't doing me much good), but I don't know how good Rain is because we need to sacrifice at least two lands to gain mana from it, and if it gets countered, we're left holding the bag. Preliminarily, I wouldn't suggest running more than one in your deck, but I'd love to see what other people think. I'm going to try testing it when I get the chance.

On a different note, I'm considering dropping the maindeck Empty for a second Petition and switching back to 14 lands maindeck after last week's tournament. I got zeroed, only winning one game (a game 2) off of Empty for 12. The tournament was really small (only four people showed up), but in every round, I felt like I was drawing at least one too many lands in every hand, even after mulligans. The lowlights included getting double Surgical Extractioned on or before turn 2 by a Pox/12-rack player, and against BUG, Pondering into two Ponders and Empty the Warrens (with Empty already in hand), shuffling, and topdecking Ponder. I got to play against Aluren, which was interesting (I lost). Anybody had any noteworthy experiences versus Aluren? I'm wondering what would be best to sideboard. That deck looked like it had really good inevitability: if I tried Disfiguring one of the opponent's creatures, he could use Imperial Recruiter to find Eternal Witness and bring it right back; bouncing their creatures hurts us; if I'd used Chain of Vapor to bounce anything except Aluren, the opponent could've just gone off; and even if I were to bounce Aluren, that might not set them back enough to push through. Anybody have suggestions? I feel like I'm missing something, but I can't figure out what it is. That deck's making me want to side in Mindbreak Trap, of all things.

Any and all advice, comments, etc. welcome!

[EDIT: One other advantage to Grim over Petition is that Miracles doesn't run many (if any) cards that cost three, making Grim an easier card to cast against Counterbalance. Not sure how much that's worth, but it's worth mentioning.]

[lordofthepit]

I know this isn't related to the strategy or deckbuilding choices of ANT, but I haven't seen any posts about it and it made me wonder "Is nobody excited that Storm players everywhere are now getting a token?" Caleb Scherer did this for you! Rejoice!

Is this confirmed? A storm token is the only thing I would actually want since I prefer to use original tokens from boosters in all cases.

[Sloshthedark]

I usually use:

SI
GP
DR
FSM
ToA

T1: draw SI, hideaway FSM, stacking GP, DR, ToA
T2: draw GP, activate SI, cast FSM, take walk turn
T3: draw DR, attack for 15, GP, DR, ToA for 6

The worst that a VClique can do here is make Tendrils only deal 4. That's still 19 which is almost assuredly lethal vs Miracles. Barring that, there is a follow up attack (and they're down 6 permanents).

I suppose it would matter more if you were on the EOT Emrakul attack twice plan because of a known/suspected JTMS (where it can maybe deal an extra 3 damage). Although, if you're on that plan, I feel like you stack
some random bounce/removal spell as the card you draw on your second turn after DD.

true


I have money to buy a Grim Tutor. Should I or has Dark Petition replaced this horribly expensive card?

if you don't care about money you should, otherwise probably not

if this helps:
160 Goldfishes (100 7cards, 30 6c, 30 8c) with Caleb's list
52/160 times additional Tutor needed for the win asap
of which 30% DP>GT, 15% GT>DP, otherwise did not matter

note that this should be the best scenario for DP, in real life a DP is a mana bottleneck for soft counters and always gets countered midcombo unlike GT, also DP+EtW doesn't make sense imo... played 1-2 DP to test it out for ~2months and other than losing in the first tournament to the difference obv. it did not matter 95% of the time and I'm back to 1GT 2 ToA

[Bittemommy]

Welcome.
Basically you can find your answers in this thread's pages. Elaborating on specific choices/ why whis and why that/ and providing a sideboard guide are things that are too extensive and never entirely complete.

True that! But I am not sure about my sideboard right now. I havn't got any clue what to board against the most decks. I've read some threads, but they all play other sideboarding games or cards.
My sideboard right now is:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Dread of Night
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm

I had 2 Disfigure in there, but my guess is that there will be a lot of Blue decks. Also some Jund, so what to do against this meta?

[Narcind]

I tried dark petition a little when it was released, but soon went back to grim tutor because it's so much more flexible, allowing you to get a rebuild, massacre, abrupt decay or whatever in preparation for the combo turn a lot easier than dark petition. Then there's also the fact that dark petition gets a lot worse in game 2/3, to the point where it's basically unplayable if the opponent has a rest in peace, nihil spellbomb, tormod's crypt or something like that.

There's also the fact that a decent amount of time, you won't need the extra mana that dark petition gives you.

Grim tutor also enables more lines where you cast PIF without a lot of rituals available, but instead tutor up a LED to crack for blue to start cantripping, where getting the initial 5 mana to cast dark petition might be difficult. These scenarios obviously don't happen that often, though.

So basically, in my opinion, dark petition is better during the combo turn, when you have a very clear cut path to victory, while grim tutor is usually better in pretty much every other situation.

And for reference, my list has 2 PIF, 1 tendrils, 1 empty, 0 ad naus maindeck, with 1 ad naus in the sideboard.


True that! But I am not sure about my sideboard right now. I havn't got any clue what to board against the most decks. I've read some threads, but they all play other sideboarding games or cards.
My sideboard right now is:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Dread of Night
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm

I had 2 Disfigure in there, but my guess is that there will be a lot of Blue decks. Also some Jund, so what to do against this meta?

Some brief guidelines to follow with a sideboard like this would be:

Chain in vs decks with difficult to win through permanents
Decay in vs decks with difficult to win through permanents that chain isn't great vs (like counterbalance or chalice)
Dread in vs thalia decks
Carpet in vs blue decks where having a lot of mana can be very useful (like delver and miracles)
Swarm in vs decks with counterspells and little to no removal (like reanimator)
I'm personally not too familiar with boarding in 3 empties, but in general, you want it vs decks that can have a hard time dealing with an early 8-12 goblins (like delver)

[Svyelunite]

Is this confirmed? A storm token is the only thing I would actually want since I prefer to use original tokens from boosters in all cases.

Heard it from the man himself.

[Ronald Deuce]

My sideboard right now is:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Dread of Night
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm

I had 2 Disfigure in there, but my guess is that there will be a lot of Blue decks. Also some Jund, so what to do against this meta?

A couple of things: I definitely would include a fourth Abrupt Decay. It's the best thing we've got for dealing with a bad matchup (Miracles), and the games I've played against Miracles, I never saw one come up with only 3x in the sideboard. I've gone up to four recently, but I haven't had the chance to play against Miracles lately. It stops Chalice, and Chalice on 1 is a pretty severe problem that Chain can't handle, and it stops Rest in Peace, which often won't appear more than once in a game.

You've got a very green-heavy board plan. I've had some trouble running so many green cards with only one (Wasteland-targetable) forest in the 75. Normally it's not a problem versus decks like Miracles that don't run land-hate, but it's a problem against a deck like BUG. I would suggest cutting Carpet, Xantid, or both (I'd cut Xantid first) and returning Disfigure to your list.

Narcind pretty much hit it on the head regarding how to use everything in the sideboard. Regarding Disfigure, it's essentially our means of dealing with hate creatures or fast-clockers like Deathrite Shaman, Meddling Mage, Eidolon of the Great Revel, sometimes Vendilion Clique or Stoneforge Mystic, and (especially) Gaddock Teeg. (N.B.: Disfigure is deceptive against Elves: it's great if it can hit something crucial when Wirewood Symbiote isn't around, but it can backfire if Symbiote is).

So Disfigure's still useful against blue decks (A flipped Delver only has 2 toughness!), though not as universally as it is against Mav, for example. It shines against hatebears and exploits combos' creature-based weakpoints, but it has a habit of getting outpaced by cards like Tarmo, Knight of the Reliquary, or Stoneforge-into-Batterskull, and it doesn't do any good against noncreature cards.

I don't see too much hate for artifacts in your board. Is MUD as unplayed where you are as it is where I am? For a long time I've kept a Hurkyl's Recall in my sideboard to deal with artifact-blitzes or Thorn-Chalice-Chalice-Trini locks, but I haven't seen those come up at all. I'm probably going to cut it for the time being and add something a bit left field, like Krosan Grip or Echoing Truth or something.

One last thing: I've been on the 3x Empty plan for a little while now, but I'm not sure a trio is better than using just two. You start to run a substantial risk of drawing multiples, which is a pretty big problem if you're trying to release the Goblins early. I've gotten a huge number of T1 Empties (a singleton is floating back and forth between my main and sideboard), but I've also gotten a huge number of hands with 2 Empties and a load of cantrips or similar. Don't count on hitting more than 10 goblins (it's possible but less likely than it is in other decks) and don't be surprised if Empty turns into a dead card after turn 2, but know that it's a real threat against a lot of decks that don't have quick disruption.

[Bittemommy]

Some brief guidelines to follow with a sideboard like this would be:

Chain in vs decks with difficult to win through permanents
Decay in vs decks with difficult to win through permanents that chain isn't great vs (like counterbalance or chalice)
Dread in vs thalia decks
Carpet in vs blue decks where having a lot of mana can be very useful (like delver and miracles)
Swarm in vs decks with counterspells and little to no removal (like reanimator)
I'm personally not too familiar with boarding in 3 empties, but in general, you want it vs decks that can have a hard time dealing with an early 8-12 goblins (like delver)

Great information! Thanks!!
But what do you board out against those decks?

[Lemnear]

3 ANT in MKM Madrids Top 4!

[fluuu]

3 ANT in MKM Madrids Top 4!

Can u post de link to watch video?

[Sloshthedark]

3 ANT in MKM Madrids Top 4!

after Nebraska this is a nightmare...

[thefringthing]

Guy on the SnapCaster stream just beat Miracles boarding in Swarm, Carpet, Empty, Decay, Trop, Chain. Took out Cabal Rituals and Lotus Petals.

[skyout]

Guy on the SnapCaster stream just beat Miracles boarding in Swarm, Carpet, Empty, Decay, Trop, Chain. Took out Cabal Rituals and Lotus Petals.

How many of each did he take out?

[thefringthing]

How many of each did he take out?All four of each, plus his flex slots. He ended up winning game two with his Carpets making eight mana total every turn.

[skyout]

All four of each, plus his flex slots. He ended up winning game two with his Carpets making eight mana total every turn.

What are your opinions of that sideboard plan? Did it seem like he just played a grindy game and won or was it more that he just drew well and the miracles player not so well.

[thefringthing]

I'll link the video once it's posted and you can draw our own conclusions. I don't think you can conclude much on the basis of one game, but what it does show is that boarding in basically everything and boarding out fast mana is at least a viable strategy for the postboard Miracles matchup.

[Bittemommy]

I've played my first legacy tournament yesterday. It was a great experience and I learned alot. We just had 15 people playing that day. So it was 4 rounds of Swiss what was being followed up by a top4. It was an Invitational Qualifier for a local store.

Round 1 was versus Elves.

Game 1: Kept a reasonably hand. Not to fast, but with good cantrip and some discard. Turn 1 Ponder. Turn 1 Probe. I saw I was against Elves. He had a good hand with Nettle Sentinle on the board already. His hand was: Herritage Druid, Nettle, Wirewood, Visionary, Cradle, Bayou. I went for a Petal into Cabal therapy to get his Herritage druid. He top decked an Green Sun's Zenith. He went into an Herritage druid and dropped his hand into the battlefield.
He attacked me two times after that, I went to 6 live. I was making a puzzle with an Tendrils in my hand. Trying to kill and save my own ass. So I went for it and for to 7 Storm. He went down to 7 and I went up to 20. His hand was stripped, topdecking. And I kept an Ritual in hand and an Past in Flames on top to kill him next turn. Thanks to Ponder. He topdecked an Craterhoof. gg
Game 2: Boarded out all the 7 discard spells, boarded in: 2 Empty the Warrens, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Disfigure.
Turn 1 did some shananigans for 18 goblins. He drew 1 card. gg
Game 3: Had a good hand, turn2/3 kill. He went for thoughtseize turn 1 and took my Brainstorm out. I had some rituals left. Topdecked an Ponder and killed him with Tendrils on turn 2.

1-0


Round 2 Mirror ANT. Against an expierenced player.

Game 1: Discard into Discard into Duress, this was visa versa. We both had some discard in hand. I didn't see a Past in Flames line in my graveyard. I was hellbent, 6 mana, I could have infernal tutored for a cabal ritual. Went for the Dark Petition, and had enough Storm to kill him. I went for Ad nauseam and killed him through that way. But it was lame and not nescecary.
Game 2: Boarded... Nothing...
He started, I came 1 mana short to kill him the turn before he killed me.
Game 3: We both had an turn 1 kill, but I could start.

It was a great game, he was realy nice and wanted to help me with the list and sideboarding after the tournament. His list was quit different. He doesn't play any Dark petition or Grim Tutor maindeck and or sideboard. He plays 1 Sensei's main and 1 Side. 1 Ad Nauseam main and 1 side. So it is a different list. I won both my games because I had an Dark Petition. But the negative side of having two of them in my maindeck is that Ad Nauseam Always is a risk for me. The 5 life of losing is terrible.


Round 3: Mono Red Muddy Sneak hate attack.

Game 1: Was quit curious. Pretty damn curious right...
turn 1 chalice on 1. He won the dye roll. So meh....
turn 2 Seething Song into Through the Breach into Griselbrand
turn 3 Seething Song into Throught the Breach into Inferno Titan.
oke... gg
Game 2:
Turn 1 chalice on 1. I had an Decay so didn't care.
Turn 2 Trinisphere. Bah, took me 3/4 turns to whipe it away.
Turn after I took it away, Through the Breach into Blightsteel.
oke.... gg

Don't realy care about this matchup, it is boring and we can not win this. It is cleary i m p o s s i b l e. He even has a turn 1 Bloodmoon if he needs. Don't like this kinda decks. But ye, who loves a Storm player ;)



Round 4, started it at 2-1. So who won this went top 4. Infect.

Game 1: Good hand, I knew he was on infect. So I Probed, to see how long I had. He never saw one pumpspell. So I could kill his quit swiftly. He had an awkward counter what was not great. Somewhere mid combo he went for the disruption. This came back in game 2.

Game 2: I boarded in 1 Empty the Warrens and 2 Xantid Swarm.
Never ever needed to board in the Goblins. I made an huge f* up. I could have killed him on turn 3. Instead of going for the direct Past in Flames kill I went for the Empty. Why? He had 6 unknown cards in hand. So.... If he midcombo counters the Past in Flames. I was screwed. If I went for the Empty, his counters where useless. So wrong choice, he didnt have the counter but he topdecked the 2nd Invigorate. gg.

Game 3: He went for it turn 2/3. Never had a opportunity to even make a game. so gg.

My own f* upp took me out of the top4. But the Infect player went against the mono red sneak hate deck. So never would have made the final anyway haha.



But looking back at my tournament, I was realy doubting my sideboards. He guide above about boarding in some cards against different kinda decks is great. But I never know what to sideboard out in that cases.

[nevilshute]

A couple of end-of-the-year videos for those interested:

https://youtu.be/R0trGgaQAE0

https://youtu.be/Y9rH_jU1GJU

[Dr_D]

A couple of end-of-the-year videos for those interested:

https://youtu.be/R0trGgaQAE0

https://youtu.be/Y9rH_jU1GJU

Drastically different list than what you've run in the past. What prompted you drop the grinding station approach and to start using the 2 basic islands that everyone seems to be running these days? If you don't mind me asking of course.

[thefringthing]

MKM Madrid Top 8 lists:

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe

----------------------------
Rodrigo Togores
+1 Bayou
+1 Tropical Island
+4 Misty Rainforest
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Rain of Filth
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Past in Flames

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Massacre
2 Flusterstorm
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
----------------------------

----------------------------
Eduardo Sajgalik
+4 Misty Rainforest
+1 Bayou
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Dark Petition
+1 Preordain

Sideboard:
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Dread of Night
----------------------------

----------------------------
Raúl Alonso
+3 Scalding Tarn
+1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Island
+1 Chrome Mox
+2 Dark Petition
+1 Preordain
+4 Ponder
+1 Duress

1 Tropical Island
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Empty the Warrens
----------------------------

[nevilshute]

Drastically different list than what you've run in the past. What prompted you drop the grinding station approach and to start using the 2 basic islands that everyone seems to be running these days? If you don't mind me asking of course.

Change of pace, and trying to keep an open mind I guess. It's also a reflection of how well Caleb has been doing. Before he qualified to the invitational I had been keeping track of his impressive run on the IQ-circuit where, for a while, it seemed like he was top-8'ing 100 +/- player tournaments every weekend. Also I've been having a bit of a barren spell with my old list so I felt like shaking things up a bit.

Too early to tell for now but it feels solid enough. I've tried running lists with both AdN and EtW before and have largely been aggrivated by the results but hey, let's see.

[Quasim0ff]

A couple of end-of-the-year videos for those interested:

https://youtu.be/R0trGgaQAE0

https://youtu.be/Y9rH_jU1GJU

In the game where you cast AdN on 9 life, you didn't need to hit on the brainstorm, did you?

You had enough mana to cast EtW for storm 9 and then follow up with Tendrils for storm 10, or am I missing something?

[nevilshute]

In the game where you cast AdN on 9 life, you didn't need to hit on the brainstorm, did you?

You had enough mana to cast EtW for storm 9 and then follow up with Tendrils for storm 10, or am I missing something?

That's true, I didn't think along those lines during the match or the commentary. Nice catch.

[Togores]

So Im short in time this week because I didnt to lot of work last week because of testing so I cant write now a long report. Just short. Punted top 4 on legacy mkm at 250~ players and then won the 350~ players modern the next day with nauseam.

Played a fast g1 deck with nauseam because g1 even against miracles is a race. Then you side out nauseam and switch to greinding station. In testing worked great but never playerd against miracles. Sidded the tendrills 4 times.
1st I played 2 tops. But drawing them too often g1 in some matchups was bad. So i put a preordain and remove the 4th decay for the other top. Just by siding -1 preordian +1 top.
Tested the 3 empty. Was good va miracles. But also the grinding station plan. And was not really good vs grixis where it was the matchup I wanted it.

2-1 burn (g3 win with eidolon on table with 2 tendrills)
2-0 uwr splinter twin (g2 griding him having: fluster, caster, 3 fow, pyro)
2-0 burn
2-1 burn (win with eidolon on board)
2-1 elves (fluster his natural g3 for gg)
2-1 team america (g3 He has a card I dont know and I pif with 1 black left. He drew bs and dazes me. My only option is pay and his a mana source (land, petal, led) with a lone gitaxian, find a led and he is dead)
2-0 grixis (g1 Im dead, my only option is to find the tendrills with a lone ponder. Its the second card so I win)
Draw
Draw

Here are mu round 6 and top 4.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZOul5aDJb0

Top 8 team america 2 usual games. One natural chain and one nauseam I think.
Top 4 team america

I want to write here quite. A bit.

G1 I have the win when I cast preordain and second card is infernal. But I look at 3 thinking its ponder. Call a judge. And this makes me that He sees all 3 cards takes one and shuffles it into the deck. Letting the remaining 2 be my preordain. He takes infernal and so I dont win. Was 1 in the night. I just play one card that looks at 2 and it gets sided out almost every game. Was tired and so.
Then a few turns later I pif having brainstorm, preordain, ponder. Fail to find tendrills or infernal.
Then next turn or 2 latter I nauseam at 9 or 10 life. I reveal. And when im on 3 with him having a drs (never revealing a ritual effect or the tendrills bit the 2nd pif) I need 2 petals or a led. Keep fliping. Its brainstorm. Im dead. Next card is led...

G2 when I fetch I have fluster and expect him to have stifle. i fetch he didnt have. So I ritual and therapy his force. Now I can pass thru daze. But not thru fluster or surgical (he plays a 15 singeton sb with one of each) . He has fluster. Thats not good because I have to crack led for red and cant fluster his fluster. I pass. Looking later at the video. i was not gonna win if he untaps. So I just have needed to go for the other ritual making a counting show before. And forcing him to fluster my ritual. Then fluster the fluster and win. I had no other chance on wining. Because I was dead to his next turn hand. May be If I did it my opponent would have bite it. Will never know. Still missplay.

Sad to loose top 4 so because I had the win almost in my hand all time. 3 times g1 and half on g2.

I go home to sleep 6 hours and then wake up next day to win the 2000€ at the modern event ^^ because I refused to split (think that if you win an event and dont get the full price that was spoiled for the 1st, you didnt really win).

Thats all^^

[OlegtheSuper]

I did 4-0(8-0) in a DE in my local store.
Sorry for my english.

1R: ANT with Caleb's build
G1 after discard spell from both and sensei activation from my side i yolo comboed because of feeling that my opp would combo next turn. I played some rituals, led, pif, flashbacked ponder, found IT and win. After he told me that he would killed me next turn.
G2 he was greedy not to play duress on his first turn and i won with Ad Nauseam on my first turn.

R2: UWR miracles with SFM
G1 after some skull connections i played 2 tendrills in one turn and killed him.
G2 same scenario.

R3: Omnitell
G1: he island. I bayou, duress. He responed with brainstorm. Duress resolved, i saw a brainstorm, 2 cuning wishes, show, impulse and delta. Removed brainstorm. What would you choise? After that i drew 3 more discards and comboed out.
G2: he island, probe for life, go. My opening hand was: sea, misty, IT, led, drit, cab ther, pif, draw a cab rit. This is the goldfish and turn one kill, so i started with drit, he responed with brainstorm and thinked a lot and say ok, i remove FOW with therapy and win. After game he said that he was thinking that i was bluffing.

R4:UWR Miracles with no mentor.
G1: after draw-go-cantrip turns i took advantage of the opportunity and comboed.
G2: after draw-go-cantrips on a turn 5 i played probe for life, he countered with blast, on my next turn i probed him for life, he played snap for blast, so storm was 3 and i had 3 open mana and could kill hem, my hand was 2 toa, 2 decays, 1 petal, 1 drit,1 cabrit. I started with drit, then petal, then i cast toa for 12(now i was on 27 and he was on 6) i thinked a lot to kill him this turn or next. Because of no clock from his side, no spells that could hate me somehow i desided to wait some turns. After 2 turns i killed him with second toa for 8 with cabrit, fow from his side, petal.
After game he said that he had some counterspells for my first drit but he was waiting for some big spells from my side.

Befor this tournament i was realy inspired with Togores's playstile on MKM Madrid so thank you Togores!
And big thanks to Pascal Wagner for advices that he gave me.

My list was:
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Burning Wish
3 Dread of Night

Thanks for reading.
Спасибо за то, что прочитали.

[Togores]

For the ones interested in my list. Forgor to post it in the report.


2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Rain of Filth
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Past in Flames


Total Number of cards in main deck: 60
Sideboard

Number Card Name
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Massacre
2 Flusterstorm
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip

Total Number of cards in sideboard: 15

[Bittemommy]

I see both lists do not run any Grim tutor or Dark Petition like Calebs lists? Why don't you play them? I see a second Tendrils, thoughts about it?

[Togores]

Why you have to play more tutors?
I like 2 pif and then sidding into grinding station.

You can play petitions. Its just another aproach.
I dislike a lot 14 lands.

[Bittemommy]

I can see. But I like the fast way to go. Double PiF makes us weak in boarding games with alot of gy hate. Or we take a 2nd Ad N in the sideboard for grindy games.
I do like the two tops in the 75. What about Bayou. Is it really a deal to have it?

[Togores]

More lands = better vs mana denial.
Also not wasted slots in sb.

Pif is also fast.
Because for going of you usualy need:
Infernal+ritual+cabal+led

With double pif you get easier ways of:
Infernal+ritual+led+pif=search for a cabal amd flashback ritual.
Also vs blue decks just slam pif makes them just counter it with no drawback for you.
One pif gets sided a lot. But you can play empty or multiple tendrills. Also for decay to kill drs in some cases.

Calebs deck is ok. But you should not see it as a 100% true thing. Every one pf us plays a diferent aproach. And it has up and downsides. Find the one you like. He has not a higher wining percentages than other of us. Just he plays every weekend and thats what you read. But I get usualy every 5 rounds I play at least 4 of them. Thats like an 80% win. Its more the player + his deck than the deck itself.

[Bittemommy]

Oke, I can see. Thanks for the reply btw. I am exploring the deck in and out. And I am curious about all the builds. I play the build of caleb right now. But you are talkin about pro and con's on the two build. What are those? I can't see why I shouldnt play the Petition. It is an extra tutor, and it gives me alot of resiliance. But your thoughts about the past in flames is great. But still sb'ing is really difficult. How about a second Ad nauseam in the 75? Especially your last sentence about the deck and the player. When I find my right build, I must understand it. The plan, the details and how the lines work though.

[Togores]

Downside of petition:
Bam 5 damage due to nauseam.
I have never liked grim or petiton. Dont need more than 4 tutors.

[OlegtheSuper]

Can't agree with Togores. I was playing petition for a while instead of ETW im my build and it was a good one. 5th tutor in grinding station is ok.
Petition is ok in situations when you want/have to combo but cant get a hellbend or have no TOA in hand.

[CabalTherapy]

Oke, I can see. Thanks for the reply btw. I am exploring the deck in and out. And I am curious about all the builds. I play the build of caleb right now. But you are talkin about pro and con's on the two build. What are those? I can't see why I shouldnt play the Petition. It is an extra tutor, and it gives me alot of resiliance. But your thoughts about the past in flames is great. But still sb'ing is really difficult. How about a second Ad nauseam in the 75? Especially your last sentence about the deck and the player. When I find my right build, I must understand it. The plan, the details and how the lines work though.

Even before settling on a particular build, it is important to understand the general concepts of Storm boarding. Something like: don't board out cantrips against Decks with discard, don't board in potentially dead cards against decks that could let them stranded in your hand, and so on and so forth, also things such as "counterboarding": opponent boards out removal, you bring in Xantid against Canadian for example.

2nd Ad Nauseam is a solid way to go. I've tried it this month and it played out decently.
Here is my most recent list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19061&iddeck=144773

[Zombie]

Even before settling on a particular build, it is important to understand the general concepts of Storm boarding. Something like: don't board out cantrips against Decks with discard, don't board in potentially dead cards against decks that could let them stranded in your hand, and so on and so forth, also things such as "counterboarding": opponent boards out removal, you bring in Xantid against Canadian for example.

Wouldn't that Xantid thing be far saner against BUG than Bolt.dec?

[OlegtheSuper]

Even before settling on a particular build, it is important to understand the general concepts of Storm boarding. Something like: don't board out cantrips against Decks with discard, don't board in potentially dead cards against decks that could let them stranded in your hand, and so on and so forth, also things such as "counterboarding": opponent boards out removal, you bring in Xantid against Canadian for example.

2nd Ad Nauseam is a solid way to go. I've tried in this month and it played out decently.
Here is my most recent list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19061&iddeck=144773

Please explain Vs what kind of decks we need 2 chains/truth?

[Bittemommy]

I am going to try some things out. But you play a Grim tutor over de Petition. Interesting. How about the Bayou mainboard. Is it really good, or what about a Badlands?

[Togores]

Seems like Cabaltherapy liked my aproach on echoing. And good job! My mkm deck and sb and yours seems really alike. Thats cool^^

You board them in against:
Mud
Chalice loam
Lands
Elves
Burn.

Echoing is specialy good against lands bouncing 2 speheres. Elves bouncing double deathrite. Loam bouncing tegg or so to have combo out with chalice on one.
Against burn chain is better. And against mud depends on what your opp has. Against chalice is better echoing. Against lodestone its better chain.

[CabalTherapy]

Wouldn't that Xantid thing be far saner against BUG than Bolt.dec?
Definitely not. BUG attacks us from different angles, whereas RUG usually relies on counterspells and mana denial. If you board in Xantid against BUG you are running the risc of having no cards in hand but a useless insect on the table, which becomes: cc1: discard a card: you get a senseless 0/1 dude with flying. If you bring in Xantid against RUG you have the chance to hit them cold and leave their Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms stranded in their hands. That'd be the case of "counterboarding": you bring in a creature against a "Bolt.dec" but where are the bolts post-board?!! This idea comes from Sloshy with whom I've talked about this method and it works very well.


Please explain Vs what kind of decks we need 2 chains/truth?
Well, you have to have my complete board in mind. I don't run DoN or Massacre, so Chain becomes an important out against hatebears. Therefore, I decided to add 1 Chain to the party. At other events, I'd probably go with DoN and without Chain but here it served me good.


I am going to try some things out. But you play a Grim tutor over de Petition. Interesting. How about the Bayou mainboard. Is it really good, or what about a Badlands?
I don't like Petition for reasons already stated in the last pages by other people. For me, Petition is still a cc5 tutor and Grim proved itself in numerous sitautions a match winner. Since my SB contains quite a few green spells, I usually go
with Bayou over Badlands but I can see reasons behind running Badlands main and Bayou side.


Seems like Cabaltherapy liked my aproach on echoing. And good job! My mkm deck and sb and yours seems really alike. Thats cool^^
Yes, I switched one Chain to Truth, which is much more flexible in various situations. Thanks. Gratulations on your awesome results in Legacy as well as in Modern. Yes :)

[Bittemommy]

I don't like Petition for reasons already stated in the last pages by other people. For me, Petition is still a cc5 tutor and Grim proved itself in numerous sitautions a match winner. Since my SB contains quite a few green spells, I usually go with Bayou over Badlands but I can see reasons behind running Badlands main and Bayou side.

Oke great, I am going to buy a Bayou and trade some Flooded strand for Misty Rainforest. But I am still searching for the right build in my hands. The Grim Tutor is both great and expensive. But I quit like the build with two Past in Flames. And like it has been said before, it depends on the right deck with the right player. But I am new, so I will try both builds. But Grim like proxie 😁

[Shaman]

I see most of recent lists run six discard spells maindeck, against the popular seven this deck used to have. I ask the reason behind this change, since I lost a lot of games due to having everything ready but the lone discard to get through force of will.

[Togores]

If you play a counterproof wincon. Like 2nd tendrills or 2nd pif you can play 6 discards. Also petitiom can get a discard spell. So you use this kind of card like a discard spell. Because of its naturas for of fighting counters.

[Ronald Deuce]

I had a bit of trouble understanding what some of you have said, so if I'm misinterpreting what you've said, I apologize in advance.

Congratulations on your finishes, guys! Great to see so many people and deck variants hitting the top 4. I'm still newbing it up, but I feel like I'm learning more and more.

[EDIT: FYI, I've been facing a lot of fast decks that can put the hurt on quickly.]

Togores, I think you're right that a second PiF is really, really useful, but I'm not enthusiastic about playing only four tutors. I've been running a singleton PiF, a singleton Dark Petition, and a maindeck Empty. Here's the relevant part of my list:

1x Ad Nauseam
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Dark Petition
1x Tendrils of Agony

I'll concede that PiF is, by miles, the strongest card in the deck, but I keep finding that cantrips alone aren't enough to ensure I can find a tutor (or, I guess, a Tendrils/Empty) without a fifth tutor in the main. Grim and Petition are both much less useful than Infernal, but I haven't had much luck outlasting opponents until I can find business with only 4x Infernal. Togores, do you often storm twice in a game? Also, how do you deal with fast decks that put pressure on early? Your list looks like it's great in grindy matchups, but I'm having trouble even with an added tutor in stopping fast kills.

I'm sticking with Petition for the time being, both for budgetary concerns and because I've had very few situations in which I thought Grim would be a better card. I mentioned before why hitting Petition off of AdN is usually better than hitting Grim, and I think we're in a better spot if someone's trying to clock us if we topdeck Petition. With that having been said, I feel like running six tutors starts to push the limits of what the deck can do. Topdecking a second or third tutor is often the last thing we want to do, and that's why I cut back to one Petition from two. CabalTherapy, can you give some examples of games in which Grim was crucial? Looks fine against slow decks and lockouts, but it feels like a pretty risky card against fast opponents.

I guess the best way to put it is that PiF is really vulnerable in spite of its power, and even if it's the strongest card in the deck, I'm not sure a second one would be better than another tutor or goblins galore. Petition has the same problem: it's really good, but I don't think there's room for a second one in the deck. I've been having problems with speedy opponents, and I haven't found PiF to be helpful against them, but I've got a second one in my sideboard for slower matchups.

I'm still a fan of running Empty in the maindeck. It's pretty terrible after turn 3, but not only does it let us go off at, say, storm 5-6, it also doesn't use the graveyard. It's forced a lot of turn-2 concessions from opponents when I've played it, and it goes very well with Cabal Therapy. I'm running a Badlands to help support it, but I may switch it out for a second Island to protect against Wasteland because I haven't had much trouble getting the red mana for Empty. I feel like it's good to have either a second PiF or a second Petition in the sideboard for matchups where goblins aren't helpful. Anybody feel similarly? Differently?

Shaman, it's interesting to hear that you've been having trouble because you don't find enough discard. I'm thinking about going down to six discards maindeck because I find them too often when I'm looking for business. I keep getting to the point that I'm a turn or two away from dying, and a single card away from comboing out, and I just keep topdecking lands and discard until I die. I find that, if my opponent's holding Force, I usually can get through it by just waiting to find one more spell for redundancy. Against a clock, though, you're right that an extra discard spell is pretty useful. I think running sideboard hate cards may be a better option, though. [EDIT: what I deleted here didn't really make any sense.] When I can get my hands on it, I'm going to start running Rain of Filth instead of my third Duress, but I'm probably going to keep the Duress in my sideboard.

Bittemommy, I'm really not sure what the best 15th land is to use. (N.B.: Trop is necessary, so I'm not counting that one; I'm talking about Island versus Bayou versus Badlands.) I don't really like either Badlands or Bayou that much. Neither produces blue mana, which is more important than black mana to have in multiples from what I've seen. But with that said, I feel like red mana is actually really important to have, so I've been keeping Badlands for the time being and putting Trop in the sideboard.

So my sideboard is a mess right now, but here's what it looks like:
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Disfigure
2x Dread of Night
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Tropical Island
1x Past in Flames
1x Carpet of Flowers
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Empty the Warrens

I'm thinking about switching out Carpet and maybe PiF or Hurkyl's for Echoing Truth. It's stellar, but I've only run one in the 75 before, and it never showed up. Glad to hear that people have been getting a lot of use out of it: it's a great card, and it's one that can solve a lot of problems when it shows up. I think two would be great, but I'm not sure what to cut. Dread of Night has been useful before, but rarely have I found it to be as good as it sounds, especially with only two in the 'board. Carpet looks great, but I don't feel like I've been getting much mileage out of it. May just be that it often doesn't show up because there are only two. Hurkyl's would be great, but I also never seem to find it in matchups in which it's good. Xantid is out of my list because it has only helped me once, and I got really lucky because my opponent Forced it and I cantripped into a natural Tendrils I wouldn't have been able to pull off without the extra Storm count.

I'm hoping to get some more practice in because I think one of the problems I've been having is that I don't see the cards show up enough to gauge how useful they are.

[Togores]

Usualy pif serves as a ritual when drawn naturaly or a tutor if you used one to copy a ritual or discard.
Im not often without a tutor. Im quite good at getting max value of my cantrips.
Also ritual + cabal + led + pif with 2-3 cabntrips in grave usualy is enought to find tutor.

I dislike empty. Just didnt wons the game. To many times it got ourraced.

Also my deck is quite fast. You play rain + 4 cabal. That makes your cabal get treshhold really really fast.

[Ronald Deuce]

Usualy pif serves as a ritual when drawn naturaly or a tutor if you used one to copy a ritual or discard.
Im not often without a tutor. Im quite good at getting max value of my cantrips.
Also ritual + cabal + led + pif with 2-3 cabntrips in grave usualy is enought to find tutor.

I dislike empty. Just didnt wons the game. To many times it got ourraced.

Also my deck is quite fast. You play rain + 4 cabal. That makes your cabal get treshhold really really fast.

Thanks a lot for the information!

I've got another question about cantrips. I ask primarily because I'm still learning how the deck works. If you play Ponder and find, say, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, and Duress, would you keep those on top or shuffle them? What about finding Ponder, Sea, and Duress? I've had a rough time figuring out how to use Ponders the best, especially when I cantrip into another cantrip and one or two other cards I don't need. Again, I've not got a lot of experience with "legit" Legacy decks, and in a deck like Dredge or All Spells I've had to assume the worst if I can't find what I need in the first couple of turns. So though I know how useful and powerful cantrips (especially Brainstorm) are, I'm pretty clumsy with them at this point. Thank you in advance for any input!

In large part I think you're right about Empty. I've noticed that it tends to win games against the players who either aren't as good at playing the format or whose decks are just really vulnerable to fast creatures (e.g., Pox or Maverick). I said before, and I'll say again, that it feels like a "training wheels" card. Really useful when it works, though, so I'm keeping it for the time being. Once I get better with the deck I might switch it out with a second PiF.

Also, I totally never noticed that line regarding Rain of Filth. I'm going to keep that in mind, and it makes me want to find a copy as quickly as I can. Thanks again!

Also, MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[Burnplayer]

Hi to all.

I'm playing this decklist:

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Krosan Grip
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cabal Therapy

I've obtained good results with this list.

My dilema is the number of Dark Petitions. I'm looking good players playing 2. My dilema is if compenses to deteriorate Ad Nauseam to have a more compact and rapid decklist.

Speaking with good players, they consider Ad Nauseam a draw engine, stoping with 7 life and winning in the next turn. But not always is possible.

For this reason I play this decklist. But I'm not sure.

Probably I need to play much more the list to see if really it compensates me to play 2 Petitions.

Opinions?

P.D: In the 2 Past in Flames decklists, I like to play 2 or 3 Preordains. The cantrips with Past in Flames are other engine

[Ronald Deuce]

Hi to all.

I'm playing this decklist:

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Krosan Grip
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cabal Therapy

Thanks for contributing!

How has Bayou been working out for you? Also, how's the Duress/Therapy split? Personally I prefer having four Therapies at all times, but I'm also running Empty in my main and I don't like that Duress can't hit creatures. A preliminary observation is that you've got two green sources maindeck but only one red source. Is there a specific reason for this? I haven't had a lot of success with green sideboard cards against anything but Miracles, and that's an uphill battle as it is. Most other decks against which green would look useful run Wasteland, so I can see the merit in a list with Bayou and Tropical, but I feel like Wasteland hits our maindeck red cards just as hard, and we usually need one to combo. Have you tried Badlands instead of Bayou?


My dilema is the number of Dark Petitions. I'm looking good players playing 2. My dilema is if compenses to deteriorate Ad Nauseam to have a more compact and rapid decklist. . . . Speaking with good players, they consider Ad Nauseam a draw engine, stoping with 7 life and winning in the next turn. But not always is possible.

Often that's the best you can hope to do, but that's still a pretty risky play. The opponent can still Thoughtseize the one card we need to pull off the combo, or push us below the point we can fetch, Probe, etc. Keep in mind that there are decks against which you can afford to go below seven. It gets pretty dangerous to do that, but it can be done.

The real dilemma is whether having a third Preordain or a fifteenth land will do you more good than having an extra 4-5cmc business spell. I've been running five cards that cost 4-5 (same as your list but with added Empty the Warrens) and I'm still not pushing AdN too far very often except in goldfishing. Useful as the card is, I feel like it's often the last resort unless we can cast it in the first turn or two of the game.

To answer your question more directly, though, if you're running a second Dark Petition, it should probably replace the third Preordain or the land, and I wouldn't worry too much about Ad Nauseam as long as you don't just jam it every time it comes up. An eleventh cantrip is only likely to slow down the deck, and Preordain's the least useful one we've got.

Have you tried running 1x Petition, 1x Empty in the maindeck? It's working pretty well for me so far. Empty doesn't synergize with much in the deck (N.B.: except Cabal Therapy), but it nets some really fast kills and it sidesteps graveyard hate and Leyline. The other possibility is to run a second Past in Flames. Either Empty or PiF will also save you one life off of Ad Nauseam, but Empty doesn't really work with AdN. The final possibility, which I would recommend if you're content to keep either 15 lands or 3 Preordains, would be to run Rain of Filth. I'm looking to find that card because it's a ninth ritual and a Threshold enabler, which I think would be much better than an eleventh cantrip.

On an unrelated note, I went 3-0 at the local on Sunday! Matchups were Shardless, ≥12 Post, and Retreatiquary. Lost one game against Shardless when the opponent opened with something like Deathrite, Hymn, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Deathrite; and lost against Retreatiquary when he opened game 2 with a Leyline of Sanctity and I couldn't break it in time. A couple of lucky wins, too, like topping Dark Petition in game 3 vs Shardless with no cards in my hand and a full graveyard. Was a great day, but I think I got lucky. 12 Post player drew a hideously powerful hand in game 2 (≥2 Spheres and a Chalice) but he only had a single Dust Bowl and found no other lands.

I noticed the big difference between this tournament and my earlier ones was that I didn't make any colossal errors. Once I probably should've Brainstormed but used Disfigure instead, but otherwise there were no "I CAN'T COUNT!" moments. Baby steps...

And Empty the Warrens is still doing work. I'm not relying on it nearly as much as I have in the past, but I like to have one on-hand for a lot of matchups. Anybody really strongly in favor of 2x Petition instead of 1x Petition, 1x Empty?

[JamieW89]

Thanks for contributing!

And Empty the Warrens is still doing work. I'm not relying on it nearly as much as I have in the past, but I like to have one on-hand for a lot of matchups. Anybody really strongly in favor of 2x Petition instead of 1x Petition, 1x Empty?

For me they don't really compete for a slot.
Empty competes with Ad Nauseam (or potentially with the 1st DP in a list with AdN).
The 2nd DP competes with cards like Preordain, Top, and the 7th discard spell for me. In EtW lists I often run 2 DP, whereas in AdN lists I seldom do.

Scherer does run 2 DP's and AdN, but his card choices have baffled me since the beginning, since there often seems to be some inherent anti-synergy in his card choices.
- He often runs Top, which makes cutting a land somewhat odd (explainable if you're playing a lot of grindy decks without wasteland though, such as Miracles. He can also board up to 15 lands which makes it less strange.). [No SDT in his latest list anymore]
- Running less lands, but more basics. This is especially weird given the earlier choice is explained by facing fewer wasteland decks.
- Running Ad Nauseam, and upping the Dark Petition count to 2.

That said, he's been wrecking the US with his lists. But that's probably more because of his playskill, and because minor deck differences hardly matter, but still.

Collected some data about my matches this year. With some matches still missing (forgot the matchup f.e.) I'm about 77% for the year (80% DTT era, 68% post-ban) over 90 matches (have 124 total I think, with about 15 ID's). 80%+ against Delver, Blade and combo (mainly because of Omnitell pre-ban). 73% against Miracles/Shardless/Grixis Control (ironically Shardless was the worst, #samplesize). Against non-blue I have 67%, but the category should be split in two. Against prison I've been scoring just under 50/50 overall, and versus decks such as Nic Fit and Jund the percentages are very high obviously..
The conclusions are nothing new really; ANT destroys Delver, Blade, and Midrange decks. In a meta full of crap like MUD and Loam you'd rather pick something else.

[rancOr_]

That's quite impressive Jamie!;) What list are u playing now if I may ask?
I'm running 1DT 2 Preordain 1 Rain of filth atm without Empty MD.. Still play one in the sideboard though.. I see some pple cutting it entirely but I like having one atleast.

[BeardTron]

How many of you play ANT on MTGO? How's the meta? Is Miracles over-represented? My local scene is so up and down and I'm thinking about biting the bullet and buying into online --just trying to get an idea of how Storm fares on there. Anything different about the lists compared to paper?

[Burnplayer]

Why play a Badlands? I only play 1 red card in main deck and other red card in sideboard. And I can play them with Lotus Petal or LED. (I can't play Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers with LED).

The second green source for me is indispensable. I play a lot of green cards in sideboard and I side decays vs Wastelands decks. Also to have the best colour configuration.

I'm not Empty the Warrens fan. EMpty the Warrens compete with the Ad Nauseam slot, no with the Dark Petition slot.

I prefer play 15 lands in main deck with two green sources (classic configuration).

Yesterday I win a FNM with my decklist, with -1 Preordain +1 Dark Petition.

2-1 Burn (Tutor Chain, Past in Flames)
2-0 Burn (Past in Flames, Past in Flames)
2-1 Infect (Ad Nauseam, Ad Nauseam)
2-0 Omnitell (Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames)

Vs Infect matchups I played Ad Nauseam with 16 life and 3 and 4 black mana back up (very favorable condition).

Vs. Omnitell I played Ad Nauseam as a draw engine and kill in the next turn.

This is my performance with my decklist (3 preordain, 1 Dark Petition) in a big tournament:


R1. 2-1 ANT
R2: 2-1 Jund
R3. 2-0 Bant
R4: 1-2 Team America
R5: 2-0 Team America
R6: 2-0 Burn
R7: 2-1 ANT
R8: 1-2 ANT
R9: 2-0 Agro Loam

7-2 (11 or 12 don't remember 269 persons)

[Bittemommy]

Why play a Badlands? I only play 1 red card in main deck and other red card in sideboard. And I can play them with Lotus Petal or LED. (I can't play Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers with LED).

The second green source for me is indispensable. I play a lot of green cards in sideboard and I side decays vs Wastelands decks. Also to have the best colour configuration.

I'm not Empty the Warrens fan. EMpty the Warrens compete with the Ad Nauseam slot, no with the Dark Petition slot.

I prefer play 15 lands in main deck with two green sources (classic configuration).

Yesterday I win a FNM with my decklist, with -1 Preordain +1 Dark Petition.

2-1 Burn (Tutor Chain, Past in Flames)
2-0 Burn (Past in Flames, Past in Flames)
2-1 Infect (Ad Nauseam, Ad Nauseam)
2-0 Omnitell (Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames)

Vs Infect matchups I played Ad Nauseam with 16 life and 3 and 4 black mana back up (very favorable condition).

Vs. Omnitell I played Ad Nauseam as a draw engine and kill in the next turn.

This is my performance with my decklist (3 preordain, 1 Dark Petition) in a big tournament:


R1. 2-1 ANT
R2: 2-1 Jund
R3. 2-0 Bant
R4: 1-2 Team America
R5: 2-0 Team America
R6: 2-0 Burn
R7: 2-1 ANT
R8: 1-2 ANT
R9: 2-0 Agro Loam

7-2 (11 or 12 don't remember 269 persons)


Cool! Nais result man! I contacted Caleb, the master, Scherer. And asked him some questions about the petition. And why we should run 2 maindeck.
The conversation:
Me:
Yo Caleb, thanks for the reaction. I am still searching the right way to play. We have some discussion going on about maindecks. Likewise two dark petition, like your build, of two past in flames and 0 dark petition. Or two Tendrils, it is still a puzzle for me. Everyone has an other opinion about the decks. What are your choices in the maindeck, and why. The majority of players told me the 2nd dark petition is a nonbo with Ad nauseam. The lifeloss is gigantic, and would Grim not be better? Or just play 4 tutors and run a sensei's top, or one of the options here above? I would like to here this from a pro player. I have been following your progress for quit some while. The wins and your understanding about the deck is great, in my opinion. The plays in the Player Championship, wauw. You wrecked Jessup, I was laughing out loud. Great! But I hope to hear from you. Greetings from Holland 😉. Koen
Caleb:
Koen, Well as you know I am a huge proponent of running 2 Dark petition and 1 past in flames, 1 tendrils. My reasoning for this over the other configurations which you mentioned is that you are at the core a tutor based deck and the vast majority of the time your kill path involves at least 1 tutor. Now by running 2 dark petition you have 6 "2 mana" tutors which if you do the math gives you a much higher chance of seeing a tutor in the top 10 cards of your library (including opening hand and liklyhood of seeing a ponder/branstorm which show 3 more). The other plans people run definitely have merit but i want to have the most well oiled killing machine game 1. As for the argument against the 2nd petition because of ad naus. I agree it does make your ad nauseous worse but i view ad naus as your eject button for when nothing else works instead of a good game plan. Plus I also view it as a card you can cast and pass turn mitigating some of the risk as well. Grim tutor would be a consideration but it actually costs more life with ad naus, since you have to pay 3 life after casting it as well. Thanks! That match was super fun, Im glad a

Me:
True that, but with alot of DRS in the meta, the petition seems alot weaker. How many Ad nauseam would you play in your 75?
The way you think about the deck interests me alot, that Ad nauseam is a way to go when all other gameplan options are out of reach. Is it not a better choice then to run two PiF instead of the Ad nauseam maindeck? Just one in the sb? Or is this a statement of crap.. Nondeless the Grim is worse then petition. Thanks for your answer! You got any tips and trics for me, let me know. I will keep following your progress in the SCG opens and other legacy events. Thanks again man, I really appreciate it. It show karakter when a pro respons. 👍🏻

Caleb:
That is a fair point. DRS is only really a problem for the spell mastery on dark petition when it's turn 2-3. After that you will have too many for DRS to keep up. Also DRS will break up a past in flames line regardless of whether you are using infernal or petition. I only play 1 ad naus in my 75. Running it exclusively in the SB was something I tried at first (right after petition was printed) but having something in your deck what operates independent of the graveyard is needed I feel after running many games without.
Your question is definitely not a bad one as I asked it myself too lol. Well as for tips and tricks I don't know what to really say as you seem like a proficient pilot who knows all the general things but one thing is never stop goldfishing. I still do it all the time. It's the only way to keep the storm skills sharp I've found. You are quite welcome! I was glad to help. If you have any future questions feel free to message me!

At first he was a great man just to response to me. Great guy! But after this conversation I was thinking about it, it is a great build. But what now if we just totaly cut the Petition and play the 2nd Past in Flames and a Sensei's top? How would that work. I am a fan of Petition, not just it gives me resiliance, but it is a 5th and 5th tutor. And like Caleb says the Ad Nauseam must be a way of winning when no other option is open. It looks like that is not the case when I am playing. I keep on trying to play that way, it gives me alot of insight. What do you guys think about it?
The list I am playing right now:
Maindeck:
2 Underground sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past In Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard:
3 Dread of Night
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Xantis Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cabal Therapy

[Sloshthedark]

For me they don't really compete for a slot.
Empty competes with Ad Nauseam (or potentially with the 1st DP in a list with AdN).
The 2nd DP competes with cards like Preordain, Top, and the 7th discard spell for me. In EtW lists I often run 2 DP, whereas in AdN lists I seldom do.

Scherer does run 2 DP's and AdN, but his card choices have baffled me since the beginning, since there often seems to be some inherent anti-synergy in his card choices.
- He often runs Top, which makes cutting a land somewhat odd (explainable if you're playing a lot of grindy decks without wasteland though, such as Miracles. He can also board up to 15 lands which makes it less strange.). [No SDT in his latest list anymore]
- Running less lands, but more basics. This is especially weird given the earlier choice is explained by facing fewer wasteland decks.
- Running Ad Nauseam, and upping the Dark Petition count to 2.

That said, he's been wrecking the US with his lists. But that's probably more because of his playskill, and because minor deck differences hardly matter, but still.

Collected some data about my matches this year. With some matches still missing (forgot the matchup f.e.) I'm about 77% for the year (80% DTT era, 68% post-ban) over 90 matches (have 124 total I think, with about 15 ID's). 80%+ against Delver, Blade and combo (mainly because of Omnitell pre-ban). 73% against Miracles/Shardless/Grixis Control (ironically Shardless was the worst, #samplesize). Against non-blue I have 67%, but the category should be split in two. Against prison I've been scoring just under 50/50 overall, and versus decks such as Nic Fit and Jund the percentages are very high obviously..
The conclusions are nothing new really; ANT destroys Delver, Blade, and Midrange decks. In a meta full of crap like MUD and Loam you'd rather pick something else.

this resonates with my sentiments 100%, only my win% is -10% in each era in twice that many matches...

////

"...never stop goldfishing" - I like this Calebs advice

[CabalTherapy]

Grim tutor would be a consideration but it actually costs more life with ad naus, since you have to pay 3 life after casting it as well. Thanks!


The real quote should be: "Grim tutor would be a considertaion but it actually costs more money, since you have to pay.... Thanks!"
Not relating this to Sherer here but at least this seems to be the reason for some players who keep telling themselves that DP is good. Grim is the one and only 5th tutor. I mean c'mon DP doesn't even
have "tutor" in its name. It's only big ol' Griselbrand trying to persuade people to sign some shitty document in Dominaria or wherever this whole business takes place.

[Bittemommy]

The real quote should be: "Grim tutor would be a considertaion but it actually costs more money, since you have to pay.... Thanks!"
Not relating this to Sherer here but at least this seems to be the reason for some players who keep telling themselves that DP is good. Grim is the one and only 5th tutor. I mean c'mon DP doesn't even
have "tutor" in its name. It's only big ol' Griselbrand trying to persuade people to sign some shitty document in Dominaria or wherever this whole business takes place.

I think the arguments of Caleb are in favor of the Grisselbrand Shizzely Petition 👌🏼

[CabalTherapy]

I think the arguments of Caleb are in favor of the Grisselbrand Shizzely Petition 👌🏼

Naturally because he only stated things in favour of DP.

[Bittemommy]

Naturally because he only stated things in favour of DP.

Because it is the better card over the Grim. In his opinion. What are your thoughts and arguments?

[Ronald Deuce]

The real quote should be: "Grim tutor would be a considertaion but it actually costs more money, since you have to pay.... Thanks!"
Not relating this to Sherer here but at least this seems to be the reason for some players who keep telling themselves that DP is good. Grim is the one and only 5th tutor.

Strikes me that the two serve different purposes surprisingly often. I'm a fan of Petition (and no, I can't afford Grim Tutor:frown:), but I can see why people are die-hard Grim fans. It feels to me like it's a better card when we're not trying to combo and a worse card when we are. I guess the other advantage is that it's easier to cast early or when we're relying on LEDs to hit our stride. I feel like its disadvantages are pretty severe, though. I'd not be comfortable running it at all with AdN, and it strikes me as a pretty big risk to play regardless of AdN if we're facing down a clocker. In my last tournament, I wouldn't have been able to cast it instead of Petition because of an active Deathrite. Running two seems pretty much impossible prima facie, as well. In any case, I'd still love to hear more about when it's really shined for people. And if it's doing work, by all means keep it up!

Regarding the argument over what slot deserves an Empty, I started with two Petitions in the main and gravitated toward switching one of them for Empty because it looked really good as a means to power out a t1/t2 with subpar storm count, even (rarely) after using Ad Nauseam. A big problem I see with replacing AdN with Empty is that the two don't work the same way with respect to our mana base. It might not be a problem now that I've got a Badlands in the main. AdN and Empty are good against different decks and bad against different decks, but I'm more comfortable with one of each in the maindeck for the time being. I also haven't been bringing in green cards against Wasteland decks because to date it hasn't seemed necessary. It's worth pointing out that I've never fought dedicated MUD or a couple of other decks against which having backup green is pretty important, though.

Keep storming up a storm in the new year, everybody!

[Togores]

lateley I have been testing va GWb maverik zenith.
Its a 50% match. At siding I have been doing like:

+3 decay
+2 masacre
+1 echoing

-2nd pif
-1 top
-1 preordain
-3 duress

But Im not sure if its better to take out the 3 duress or they 3 therapys. I think is better the duress. But want a second thought and more ideas: after boarding they have:

4 deathrite
1-2 Tegg
4 Zenith
4 Mother of runes
3-4 seize
0-2 surgical
4 thalia
2 cannonist


I have been playing and callong blond therapy usualy happend to be on thalia. But other ideas? They just play a ton of diferent cards.

If they start and play desthrite should I ponder (for example) or therapy? If I therapy what I call? Thalia? Zenith? I Know it depends on my hand. But still just to get thoughts.

[Burnplayer]

GWb is one of the reasons to play Dread of Night.

Massacre could be good vs Death and Taxes killing Thalias/Revokers, but vs GWb the Gaddock Teeg is a problem.

Vs Mother + Gaddock or vs Safekeeper + Gaddock you can't win.

One Dread of Night liquidates Mother of Runes and Thalias. And in this pairing, if you don't win for speed, Mother of Runes/Sylvan Safekeeper + bear is other more problem.

The second Dread liquidates Gaddocks and Canonist, and you can look for making Infernal Tutor to Dread of Night.

My SB plan is:

-3 Duress -3 Cabal Therapy -1 Dark Petitition

+4 Abrupt Deacy +3 Dread of Night

(In my point of view, after much testing, Abrupt Decay > Chain of Vapor in this pairing)

[Togores]

I dont want to waste 3 slots for white decks. You dont play them often enought. For example in mkm toulouse I decides to play no white hate. At the end of an event you max play 0-1 white deck usualy. And dread is only good as a 3x. Masacre is good vs blade, taxes, patriot, deathblade, sometimes miracles. While dread is only good vs maverik and taxes. And sometimes they still have revokerd and canonist and your dread makes nothing...

[Burnplayer]

You waste two slots in White Creatures (massacre). And vs Blade or Patriot I prefer Abrupt Decay.

But the Massacre vs Dread of Night is an old debate.

[Ronald Deuce]

Game 1, I've been naming Green Sun's Zenith or Gaddock off a blind Therapy because either of those locks us out. Thalia's also a really good target, possibly better than Gaddock just because there are fewer Gaddocks in most of their maindeck lists and Thalia can knock us out too.

Dread of Night is pretty underwhelming whenever it comes up against anyone but D&T in my experience. Massacre's ok, but I've had a lot of matches against Mav in which the opponent played around it by not dropping Plains at all. And Gaddock stops Massacre.

Togores, You're absolutely right that Therapy is more useful than Duress in this matchup simply because our only relevant target for Duress is Green Sun's Zenith. I wouldn't recommend Abrupt Decay unless you're facing Chalice or Countertop, though. It's pricey, it needs green mana, and Mav runs Wasteland.

Mom is a problem if we don't have Dread of Night, but I'm hoping we can use Therapy to get relevant threats out of their hand before Mom can bring the shields up. I haven't seen it come up very often, but when it does, it's tough to beat without global effects. What's everyone's experience been like against Mom?

The best luck I've had against Mav was to board into 3x Empty and some hate cards and to just jam it. Worked great, but I don't think it's something on which to rely. In terms of other things to use against them, I've been considering dropping the Dreads and replacing them with another Disfigure or Chain and an Empty, probably. That would make my board look like this:

4x Abrupt Decay
2-3x Disfigure
2-3x Chain of Vapor
2x Empty the Warrens
2x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tropical Island


I agree that it's important not to over-sideboard, but I've been having trouble finding anything relevant when we don't bring in more than six cards. And mulligans hurt really badly against Maverick because they've got Wasteland and a whole lot of hatebears. What I'm thinking of doing next time I go against Mav is this:
-3 Duress
-2 Preordain
-1 Dark Petition
-1 AdN

+3 Disfigure
+2 Empty the Warrens
+2 Chain of Vapor

Anyone have any thoughts?

[Togores]

I tested 3 empty vs grixis and taxes a lot. And they where not better than 1.

Against maverik and taxes I prefer like having in my deck:
1 nauseam
1 empty
1 toa
1 pif.
Usualy it dosnt hurt to have all this.

The last years when playing my old 2 top list I enden post board va taxes like:
1 nauseam
1 pif
1 toa
2 masaacre
3 decay
2 chain


Or even adding and empty to this (still never a fan of empty in ant).

You really dont care vs taxes having so many cmc4 because if you flip one masaacre your usualy safe can wipe the board and win next turn with extra backup.

[davelin]

For me they don't really compete for a slot.
Empty competes with Ad Nauseam (or potentially with the 1st DP in a list with AdN).
The 2nd DP competes with cards like Preordain, Top, and the 7th discard spell for me. In EtW lists I often run 2 DP, whereas in AdN lists I seldom do.

Scherer does run 2 DP's and AdN, but his card choices have baffled me since the beginning, since there often seems to be some inherent anti-synergy in his card choices.
- He often runs Top, which makes cutting a land somewhat odd (explainable if you're playing a lot of grindy decks without wasteland though, such as Miracles. He can also board up to 15 lands which makes it less strange.). [No SDT in his latest list anymore]
- Running less lands, but more basics. This is especially weird given the earlier choice is explained by facing fewer wasteland decks.
- Running Ad Nauseam, and upping the Dark Petition count to 2.

That said, he's been wrecking the US with his lists. But that's probably more because of his playskill, and because minor deck differences hardly matter, but still.

Collected some data about my matches this year. With some matches still missing (forgot the matchup f.e.) I'm about 77% for the year (80% DTT era, 68% post-ban) over 90 matches (have 124 total I think, with about 15 ID's). 80%+ against Delver, Blade and combo (mainly because of Omnitell pre-ban). 73% against Miracles/Shardless/Grixis Control (ironically Shardless was the worst, #samplesize). Against non-blue I have 67%, but the category should be split in two. Against prison I've been scoring just under 50/50 overall, and versus decks such as Nic Fit and Jund the percentages are very high obviously..
The conclusions are nothing new really; ANT destroys Delver, Blade, and Midrange decks. In a meta full of crap like MUD and Loam you'd rather pick something else.

Jamie, what's your latest decklist these days? In particular I'm curious how you board versus Miracles?

[CabalTherapy]

Because it is the better card over the Grim. In his opinion. What are your thoughts and arguments?

First of all, I have to state that I've been playing with Grim for quite a while, thus my thoughts and arguments might be biased/subjective -as it is the nature of stating one's opinion- and based on my experience with this card rather than with DP. Therefore, I know what Grim can and what it cannot in specific situations.

To put it short and very general, there are basically two approaches to business spells: relying on tutors and on the other hand relying on engine spells. Since there is only Infernal Tutor who earns his plays among the tutors in this deck, one has to look out for other options, from which Grim Tutor has been the number two for some time. Now, ANT changes, slowly but it changes, and the need of more business spells arose because other decks adapted to Storm as a super strong opponent and started to attack our deck from different angles. Thus, 7 discard spells didn't get the job done. More business spells= better against opp's discard= higher chances to draw spice from top= ... =... and so on.

Starting from this idea, one has generally speaking the options to add tutor effects to the deck to be able to search for engine spells or making tutor chains easier or to increase the count of engine spells (PiF, ToA=grinding station approach; please don't relate multiple ToA imediately to grinding station. The decks differ due to playstyle and not as much to card slots.) I chose the route of adding another engine, second PiF, to the deck because it is a huge spell against a wide field of the meta and not being forced to search for it via tutor effects is a huge upside for certain lines.

Coming back to Grim Tutor vs. DP, I think that Grim provides more lines against real opponents (not goldfish) with this kind of approach. Just imagine playing against a "discard deck", let's say the mirror, playing your LED, having three lands in play or maybe a Petal and then drawing Grim/DP. Just a simple example of which there are many in real situations. Other arguments contain: taxing counter spells, graveyard hate, playing tutors before combo, AdN (you don't need to play Grim if you reveal it...)

All in all, since you started playing this deck not long ago, I would advise you to simply play, play, and play with one version of the deck keeping in mind different plays with possibly different cards and testing with different lists. Sounds much? Yeah, but at some point you will see, you will find your playstyle and also your boarding plans. There are many ways to play Tendrils for 20 and in the end everything works to some extent. Enjoy.

[Plague Sliver]

Wisdom

Great post. I hope to one day be as knowledgeable and well-practiced as some of you folks. Well, I'd better get practicin' :cool:

[l33twash0r]

I personally stopped playing Grim Tutor after somewhat big local tournament and I pondered between 1x Petition or 1x G.Tutor and the G.Tutor cost me few matches and decided to put it away for good time.

[jjrotzo]

(...) Coming back to Grim Tutor vs. DP (...)

Speaking of real opponents, note that you cannot do a PiF loop with Grim Tutor if you have less than 7 life points left (10 life facing Bolt). Additionally to needing two extra mana for the Grim PiF loop in the first place.

No matter which tutor you choose, you will find yourself in situations wishing you would hold the other one in hand. Either card shines or fails under certain circumstances. I do not think that anyone is able to tell for sure which of those situations happen more frequently.

Btw, I side the fith tutor out after game 1 quite often anyway.

[meffeo]

Great post. I hope to one day be as knowledgeable and well-practiced as some of you folks. Well, I'd better get practicin' :cool:

We all know that in term of knowledge, Cabal Therapy is the real master.

[nevilshute]

Back with a couple of Legacy Storm vids https://youtu.be/P2arxt2ocwo & https://youtu.be/ttUdsCzm5KQ

Playing a list very similar to what Caleb Scherer's.

[CabalTherapy]

Back with a couple of Legacy Storm vids https://youtu.be/P2arxt2ocwo & https://youtu.be/ttUdsCzm5KQ

Playing a list very similar to what Caleb Scherer's.

Haven't seen these yet but I've enjoyed your Vintage Storm video.

[ScottW]

Back with a couple of Legacy Storm vids https://youtu.be/P2arxt2ocwo & https://youtu.be/ttUdsCzm5KQ


Playing a list very similar to what Caleb Scherer's.

I really enjoy your videos. Hopefully, you'll keep making them now and then. FYI, I liked your previous lists more but happy to have the content either way.

Congratulations on being a father. It's unimaginably rewarding.

[aegisd]

Back with a couple of Legacy Storm vids https://youtu.be/P2arxt2ocwo & https://youtu.be/ttUdsCzm5KQ

Playing a list very similar to what Caleb Scherer's.

I'm curious why disfigure didn't come in against the 4-color delver deck, since I thought one of the reasons for running it in the SB was for DRS.

[OlegtheSuper]

Dear stormriders please explain me 2 situations:
1 - Why some players play 3 decays+2 grips instead of 4+1 split?
2 - Vs what kind of decks player(Claudio Bonanni, here is the link http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19194&iddeck=145893) uses confidants in that sb:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
3 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Dread of Night

[Togores]

Krossan gets rid of top without chance.
If you duress them and they have a flusterstoem on top its dificult to win. But you just grip top they loose it forever and then you go off.
Also balance + melddling mage on decay is light out. 2 grip lets you win there.

[Narcind]

Dark confidant is good vs miracles and can be ok vs combo since it lets you be very aggressive with discard, but it's risky since you might just die because you played a bob while your opponent plays their combo and wins.

[OlegtheSuper]

Togores, Narcind, thank you!
I have one more question.
I'm on grinding station (playing 2-3 ToA and 2 pif in main). If i face a classic ANT, will it be right to hit him on 16-18 with ToA on first turn to prevent AdN-combo and ToA-goldfish-up-to-34dmg from his side to buy some more time for collecting my ToA for 2-4 dmg?

[nevilshute]

Haven't seen these yet but I've enjoyed your Vintage Storm video.

Thanks Robert! I'll try and do another one soon :)

[Jonathan Alexander]

Togores, Narcind, thank you!
I have one more question.
I'm on grinding station (playing 2-3 ToA and 2 pif in main). If i face a classic ANT, will it be right to hit him on 16-18 with ToA on first turn to prevent AdN-combo and ToA-goldfish-up-to-34dmg from his side to buy some more time for collecting my ToA for 2-4 dmg?

Depends on what you're left with afterwards and if you could kill them next turn otherwise. If you can't kill them on your next turn, you probably want to go for it, but that seems like a constructed scenario. If all you have afterwards is like one land, I think you're wasting too many resources. If you have like land on board, cantrip in hand and Past in Flames in your graveyard, it seems good.

[OlegtheSuper]

Depends on what you're left with afterwards and if you could kill them next turn otherwise. If you can't kill them on your next turn, you probably want to go for it, but that seems like a constructed scenario. If all you have afterwards is like one land, I think you're wasting too many resources. If you have like land on board, cantrip in hand and Past in Flames in your graveyard, it seems good.

Thank you!

[Ronald Deuce]

Back with a couple of Legacy Storm vids https://youtu.be/P2arxt2ocwo & https://youtu.be/ttUdsCzm5KQ

Playing a list very similar to what Caleb Scherer's.

Enjoyed the videos! Thanks for the links.

Are you still running Empty in the maindeck? How has it been working out for you so far? I've been finding that I use it pretty rarely now, so I'm wondering how often it's been coming up and how often it's been working.

[Sloshthedark]

Back with a couple of Legacy Storm vids https://youtu.be/P2arxt2ocwo & https://youtu.be/ttUdsCzm5KQ

Playing a list very similar to what Caleb Scherer's.

https://youtu.be/s9Ldlusw63Q?t=1m58s

I like what you did there, this is the most valuable out of the 31 mins, if Ad Nauseam was SDT it's even more interesting


Are you still running Empty in the maindeck? How has it been working out for you so far? I've been finding that I use it pretty rarely now, so I'm wondering how often it's been coming up and how often it's been working.

to add to the question - isn't Grim Tutor better running EtW or are you just sure DP is better?

[nevilshute]

Enjoyed the videos! Thanks for the links.

Are you still running Empty in the maindeck? How has it been working out for you so far? I've been finding that I use it pretty rarely now, so I'm wondering how often it's been coming up and how often it's been working.

Thanks for watching! Yes, still running Empty in the main deck. I think it's damn near impossible to properly assess it as there are just too many variables. Even if I were to a: determine what constitutes Empty being successful in a game and what doesn't and b: record my findings over a prolonged period of time and see how often Empty is being successful more so than not. These variables include different matchups, different builds, different levels of my different opponents, my own mental constitution at different times while playing.

So having said that we're back at looking at our feelings based upon experiences; gut feeling; intution and whatever. I really like Empty. It feels to me like it often does a lot of heavy lifting. I will have spells of like several game sessions where I don't use it and if such a spell runs for a long enough amount of time my faith in the card might lessen and I might decide to try and cut it. That said I'm still liking it a lot.


https://youtu.be/s9Ldlusw63Q?t=1m58s

I like what you did there, this is the most valuable out of the 31 mins, if Ad Nauseam was SDT it's even more interesting



to add to the question - isn't Grim Tutor better running EtW or are you just sure DP is better?

You are refering to playing into a potential wasteland? And how does AdN being top enhance this? :smile:

I'm honestly not sure about Grim... I hadn't really considered its difference in application in relation to Empty but you are right in that it is better there as a potential turn 1 play.

I've really enjoyed playing with Dark Petition. It effectively being 1 less mana and also not having the built in life loss just feels pretty sweet. But I've had a lot of success with Grim Tutor in the past and I'm still not completely ready to abandon it.

[Sloshthedark]

You are refering to playing into a potential wasteland? And how does AdN being top enhance this? :smile:

I'm honestly not sure about Grim... I hadn't really considered its difference in application in relation to Empty but you are right in that it is better there as a potential turn 1 play.

I've really enjoyed playing with Dark Petition. It effectively being 1 less mana and also not having the built in life loss just feels pretty sweet. But I've had a lot of success with Grim Tutor in the past and I'm still not completely ready to abandon it.

You probably didn't pay that much attention because of double queueing but imo you chose the least effective play to assemble the combo yet the most effective play to win the game.. it's interesting because vast majority would Island->Preordain which is the most effective in Cantrip order but quite bad in case of this unknown MU... I believe this is one of the things that separate good players from mediocre - thinking in context

Unknown Opp might play Miracles, xC tempo, Storm, maybe Shown and Tell for relevant decks because of the Volcanic->Ponder

by Ponder you give the Opponent the incentive to screw up by misjudging the MU - holding back relevant cards and actions or plaing cantrips wrong ... because by Sea->Ponder for 3/4 of the mentioned decks you're first and foremost FoW+Daze tempo deck, only an Ant player would put you on Storm as an equal possibility... even better - you're a deck that has fixed it's hand... so you upped your chances to not get CB slammed on the table T2, Opp cantrip for a Fow but play a threat instead, get dead T2 or Shown and told something ugly... in other words you got time (which should compensate lower quality of Ponder) and possibly much more (not bad if you can realisticaly T2 Ad Nauseam) out of very simple thing and the worst what can happen is a Wasteland+Delver

by Preordain you scream STORM and get the exact opposite of above
by playing a land and passing you get less imo

Ad Nauseam being SDT would be interesting because you can emulate Miracles very well by Island-Ponder, SDT-Tarn or Island-SDT, Tarn (the thing is - would this be more beneficial? I think not) and you aren't pressured to get mana fast by the presence of Ad Nauseam

by Usea+Ponder you do not play the deck but play the game that is why I think it's an interesting/important situation

[Artemis90]

Hi guys,

I have not played ANT for more than a year now, but I think it's time to count to ten again and kill some people with tendrils.
As far as I can see most of the current successful lists run a different configuration of business/kill spells than I was used to – my last list back in 2014 „only“ included the usual 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 PiF and 1 ToA with 4 preordain as fillers. Reading through the last 100 pages of this Thread (took some hours...), I found some nice inspiration to „update“ my deck but would like to hear your opinion.

With Miracles everywhere it seems just reasonable to get more resilience by running more copies of PiF and/or Storm spells. I really like Pascal Wagners approach to the MU with 2 PiF/ 3 ToA and I definitely want to have at least 3 Tendrils in my 75. But so far I can't see how to get rid of Ad nauseam in the maindeck with so many other combo decks in my local metagame. Have a love-hate-relationship to that card ...
While some SCG guys run Ad Nauseam in the maindeck with 4 cmc4+ spells, I don't like to have more than a maximum of 3 when running it because otherwise I always felt it was quite risky. Dark petition seems to be an interesting addition to the deck, but for now I dont see it in my list.

First thing I would like to know is which of the following different configurations would have the strongest synergy with Ad nauseam in the maindeck:

2 PiF / 1 ToA or 1PiF / 2ToA or 1PiF/1ToA/1EtW ?

Most people seem to prefer the first one.
To draw PiF also offers a lot of strong plays like cantrip chaining or reuse of discard to totally destroy your opponents hand. But I also really like drawing into tendrils against blue decks.

Beside this I would like to test Rain of filth as a „5th dark ritual“ and one copy of chrome mox as an additional initial mana source in the maindeck . Both cards to make Ad nauseam more reliable.

Any experiences with the mox?

I would appreciate your help to get back into stormriding!

[phazonmutant]

I played in the CardKingdom 1K Legacy tournament on Saturday with Storm. Dropped at X-2 after picking up my second loss round 6. Jumping in here mostly to share my experience with Empty and Grim Tutor since they're relevant to the discussion.

Here's the list. Nothing groundbreaking, just a few tweaks from the MKM lists and others that have been doing well.
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grim Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Xantid Swarm

Ad Naus is still kind of mediocre but I ended up using it a few times. Empty was great out of the sideboard, but I don't think that you can have Empty, 2 Pif, and Ad Naus all in the maindeck, and I think Ad Naus and 2 PiF are better against the maindeck of the field at the moment. I killed D&T with Empty for 14 t1 on the play, won a game against Canadian Threshold, and was generally happy with it.

Grim Tutor was never worse than Dark Petition, and being able to Grim Tutor for a ritual to set up for next turn came up. I still think it's better. That being said, I cut it in about 50% of sideboard games.

I took my losses to Grixis Delver an RUG Delver. The former is a super tough matchup. Early Empty is great, but if their draw is halfway reasonable it's hard to keep up with the combination of discard, graveyard hate, counterspells, and mana disruption. RUG Delver isn't an awful matchup. I wish I had drawn Carpet a couple times but didn't see it. Still not sure if it's good.

1 Dread of Night didn't punish me against the one white deck I played, so why waste slots? :tongue: I also beat Sneak and Show with only 1 Xantid Swarm. There's less Reanimator and Show and Tell than before, and I think that playing the control game against them is a better plan anyway. Also a ton of the field was Storm so I was very, very happy with Fluster and Surgical.

[Sloshthedark]

First thing I would like to know is which of the following different configurations would have the strongest synergy with Ad nauseam in the maindeck:

2 PiF / 1 ToA or 1PiF / 2ToA or 1PiF/1ToA/1EtW ?

Most people seem to prefer the first one.
To draw PiF also offers a lot of strong plays like cantrip chaining or reuse of discard to totally destroy your opponents hand. But I also really like drawing into tendrils against blue decks.

Beside this I would like to test Rain of filth as a „5th dark ritual“ and one copy of chrome mox as an additional initial mana source in the maindeck . Both cards to make Ad nauseam more reliable.

Any experiences with the mox?

I would appreciate your help to get back into stormriding!

the second one is the answer to the question, imo the 1st one is simply not good, as I once said I usually end up with the 1st configuration when I can't let go of AdN in the 75 or want to retry playing it MD but I'd consider it optimal by no means.. I'd not play the Mox unless on 2AdN, RoF experience vary, I'm not a fan but some like it a lot



I took my losses to Grixis Delver an RUG Delver. The former is a super tough matchup. Early Empty is great, but if their draw is halfway reasonable it's hard to keep up with the combination of discard, graveyard hate, counterspells, and mana disruption. RUG Delver isn't an awful matchup. I wish I had drawn Carpet a couple times but didn't see it. Still not sure if it's good.


I've been pretty lucky against the former and I do not feel it as tough so far... nice 1of Sb btw. I was thinking a 1of Carpet 1of Swarm might be an interesting choice after watching some Jamie's MKM action

[phazonmutant]

2 PiF / 1 ToA or 1PiF / 2ToA or 1PiF/1ToA/1EtW ?

2 ToA / 1 PiF vs. 2 PiF / 1 ToA is about the same against decks that mostly interact with counterspells, but I think drawing PiF tends to be better against the field so I favor that in the main. The reason is PiF plays through discard much better, and usually is quicker to kill. I like boarding in another Tendrils and / or Empty against counterspell decks though.


I've been pretty lucky against the former and I do not feel it as tough so far... nice 1of Sb btw. I was thinking a 1of Carpet 1of Swarm might be an interesting choice after watching some Jamie's MKM action

Haha thanks! Not going to say it's optimal, but didn't seem terrible. I used all of the cards.

[Artemis90]

Sloshthedark, phazonmutant, thanks for your quick replies!


the second one is the answer to the question, imo the 1st one is simply not good, as I once said I usually end up with the 1st configuration when I can't let go of AdN in the 75 or want to retry playing it MD but I'd consider it optimal by no means..

So maybe I just get you wrong, but you say the second one (1PiF/2ToA) has the better synergy with Maindeck AdN but nevertheless you prefer the first one (2PiF/1ToA) when you play AdN MD ? Please explain this!



2 ToA / 1 PiF vs. 2 PiF / 1 ToA is about the same against decks that mostly interact with counterspells, but I think drawing PiF tends to be better against the field so I favor that in the main. The reason is PiF plays through discard much better, and usually is quicker to kill. I like boarding in another Tendrils and / or Empty against counterspell decks though.

Is the advantage of PiF over in-hand-tendrils against discard still that big with Deathrite Shaman being more present again, especially in the relevant UB Counter+Discard Decks?
I know we can still go the grave loop and play around an active DRS with double tutor, but if we get hit by discard with Shaman in Play there isnt a difference between PiF or ToA I guess. But I got your point, there is still an advantage I have to consider. And concerning additional Tendrils / Empty in the SB I will definitely include 2 additional storm spells in the SB !

[Sloshthedark]

So maybe I just get you wrong, but you say the second one (1PiF/2ToA) has the better synergy with Maindeck AdN but nevertheless you prefer the first one (2PiF/1ToA) when you play AdN MD ? Please explain this!

the 1 Pif 2Toa has objectively better synergy with AdN, to be clear I don't MD Ad nauseam (I'm mostly on 2Pif 2ToA EtW for more than a year) but I ended up with now so popular setup in times when I forced myself to MD it to try out different MD/SB setups or as a last minute change, I don't like it both theoreticaly and practicaly

[OlegtheSuper]

[QUOTE=Artemis90;926046]So maybe I just get you wrong, but you say the second one (1PiF/2ToA) has the better synergy with Maindeck AdN but nevertheless you prefer the first one (2PiF/1ToA) when you play AdN MD ? Please explain this!/QUOTE]

the 1 Pif 2Toa has objectively better synergy with AdN, to be clear I don't MD Ad nauseam (I'm mostly on 2Pif 2ToA EtW for more than a year) but I ended up with now so popular setup in times when I forced myself to MD it to try out different MD/SB setups or as a last minute change, I don't like it both theoreticaly and practicaly


Could you write your current list please?

[Sloshthedark]

[QUOTE=Sloshthedark;926088]


Could you write your current list please?

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Ad Nauseam
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

the last 3 vary a lot, I have a lot of non-U at the lgs currently, sometimes I have 1CoV, up to 3XS (those are for local tempo special not Miracles), Extirpate or another KG

[OlegtheSuper]

@sloshthedark, thx!
Stormriders please explain me in what kind of meta we need two CoV/echoing truth?

[Lans89]

@sloshthedark, thx!
Stormriders please explain me in what kind of meta we need two CoV/echoing truth?

I think the 2 Chain of Vapor are my most important/used sideboard cards. It works against almost all forms of permanent hate (I don't board them vs Miracles, but in many many many other matchups). And it has a nice side effect - extra stormcount! Petal - LED - chain of vapor target petal, sac land target led, sac land target opponents permanent X and replay your artifact mana. This is a major upside vs decks like Shardless BUG, when your hand is ripped by discard and you sided in CoV to answer Meddling Mage/Garfdigger's Cage/Null Rod/Deathrite. There are times when people side in a singleton when you're not sure if you need them, and it's still useful. Example: when everyone played Lejay's Omnitell deck with Leylines side or times when Sneaky Show players love to play Leyline, you have many ways to find the singleton CoV vs those decks.

[Shaman]

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
...


What's the boarding plan vs. Miracle? Do you side in both Massacre or just go with decays and grip? Xantid?

I am debating the inclusion of ad nauseam post board, since it can steal games but the risk is high when boarding higher casting cost spells.

Thanks for your hints, Miracle is largely played here and this is the MU I am most confused about regarding proper sideboarding.

[Tom T]

What's the boarding plan vs. Miracle? Do you side in both Massacre or just go with decays and grip? Xantid?

I am debating the inclusion of ad nauseam post board, since it can steal games but the risk is high when boarding higher casting cost spells.

Thanks for your hints, Miracle is largely played here and this is the MU I am most confused about regarding proper sideboarding.

Why would you side in Massacre vs Miracles? (Don't be too afraid of Mentors or side Sulfur Elementals instead of your usual D&T hate)

I play 2 Ad Nauseam against Miracles post-board. It's really good against that deck.

[Shaman]

I usually side in a single Massacre to answer hate when they have it (canonist) or clean the board when under pressure (mentor but also usual Miracle creatures). I haven't found it a wasted slot, even if probably not needed. Thus my request for help.

[thefringthing]

Is Teferi's Realm the sick tech yet?

[l33twash0r]

Is Teferi's Realm the sick tech yet?

I had some luck with it on my local meta so far :)

[thefringthing]

I tried it at my weekly. Maybe it's a trap; it works against everything, but isn't as good as a dedicated sideboard card would be in any situation. But it does seem like it opens up a lot of slots. I'm thinking of something like 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Krosan Grip, 2 Xantid Swarm, 3 Teferi's Realm, 1 Empty the Warrens, 2 Disfigure, 2 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Something Else. I worry that it may not be viable against Death & Taxes since it may quickly become too expensive to cast.

[HeicNoenumPax]

New storm player. I fell in love with the deck watching Togores play at Eternal Weekend (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yeF6n_F-0w) and after goldfishing and playing a few games with a friend, I decided to build it on modo and start practicing more seriously.

I'm really digging the Adam Prosak and Carsten Kotter articles, even if 4-3 years old, I still find them useful and well written. Do you recommend me any more up to date articles?




VII. Useful Links

Old ANT thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)), lots of useful discussion to read through here
The Council (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Ad%20Nauseam%20Tendrils&format=Legacy), where you can see recent lists and finishes for this deck (and all the rest)
The Cabal Rises (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23816-Eternal-Europe-The-Cabal-Rises.html), article by Carsten Kotter, 3/23/12
The Storm Experience (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25130-Eternal-Europe-The-Storm-Experience.html), article by Carsten Kotter, 11/02/12
Comparative Storming (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/26624-Comparative-Storming.html), article by Carsten Kotter, 8/02/13
Storm Training Regimen (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/26673-Storm-Training-Regimen.html), article by Carsten Kotter, 8/09/13
Legacy Storm Primer (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25829_Legacy-Storm-Primer.html#content_decks_legacy-tab), article by Adam Prosak, 3/14/13
Braving The Storm In Los Angeles (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25438_Braving-The-Storm-In-Los-Angeles-8th.html), article by Adam Prosak, 1/03/13

How to Beat Storm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0), video for people looking to, well, beat our deck
The Weather Channel (http://www.weather.com/), so you can have more Storm knowledge than anyone else

[Sloshthedark]

What's the boarding plan vs. Miracle? Do you side in both Massacre or just go with decays and grip? Xantid?

I am debating the inclusion of ad nauseam post board, since it can steal games but the risk is high when boarding higher casting cost spells.

Thanks for your hints, Miracle is largely played here and this is the MU I am most confused about regarding proper sideboarding.

the list is LGS tuned and I'd not play the SB otherwise - there is 0-1 respectable Miracles, sometimes 1 CB Mentor AK control but mostly UBx tempo and non-U, I juggle with more KG and Extripate if those guys are around, there is no "proper SBing" I usually go deep into lategame with occasional early EtW kills and board out all LP

I wouldn't board Massacre unless I've seen something like multiple MM postboard, I haven't boarded AdN against Miracles in any setup last year but it's not bad to do so, it's more of a draw X than engine


Is Teferi's Realm the sick tech yet?


I wish...

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j378/Sloshthedark/mm.png

but do not think so...

[Artemis90]

While reading through the pages of this Thread some days ago I've found a list one of you guys made to look at the MUs where the Grinding Station approach really shines on the one hand and where it means a disadvantage compared to lists with AN MD on the other hand (at least preboard).

As far as I remember especially Miracles, Canadian and Patriot where given in this list as improved MUs, while most of the non-blue / Combo as well as UBx-Delver MUs were listed as slightly harder MUs because you lack speed or can not grind against Discard.
This is not my opinion or experience – after all I dont have any experience with lists not running AN MD – just what others said there.


the list is LGS tuned ... there is 0-1 respectable Miracles, sometimes 1 CB Mentor AK control but mostly UBx tempo and non-U

When looking at your metagame in your LGS you seem to just have a lot more of those MUs where grinding isnt that good (referring to the list / discussion ).
Some questions:
Does the EtW instead of 3rd Tendrils compensate for the lack of AN as another way to go of with few ressources?

And does it make that a big difference against decks like BUG Delver, where Ad Nauseam also isnt that good? I really hate this MU and I think its the worst next to Reanimator...

While I see the benefits of grinding against Miracles postboard when we also have Decay/Grip, I also would like to know if it really improves your preboard games – isnt a race here the saver way without any way to remove CB?

Would like to hear your comment on this and maybe some comments from others here who play Grinding Station as well. I've read many discussions about this also on reddit but they never lead to a clear result. Hope you guys can help me get a better understanding!

[CabalTherapy]

While reading through the pages of this Thread some days ago I've found a list one of you guys made to look at the MUs where the Grinding Station approach really shines on the one hand and where it means a disadvantage compared to lists with AN MD on the other hand (at least preboard).

As far as I remember especially Miracles, Canadian and Patriot where given in this list as improved MUs, while most of the non-blue / Combo as well as UBx-Delver MUs were listed as slightly harder MUs because you lack speed or can not grind against Discard.
This is not my opinion or experience – after all I dont have any experience with lists not running AN MD – just what others said there.


When looking at your metagame in your LGS you seem to just have a lot more of those MUs where grinding isnt that good (referring to the list / discussion ).
Some questions:
Does the EtW instead of 3rd Tendrils compensate for the lack of AN as another way to go of with few ressources?

And does it make that a big difference against decks like BUG Delver, where Ad Nauseam also isnt that good? I really hate this MU and I think its the worst next to Reanimator...

While I see the benefits of grinding against Miracles postboard when we also have Decay/Grip, I also would like to know if it really improves your preboard games – isnt a race here the saver way without any way to remove CB?

Would like to hear your comment on this and maybe some comments from others here who play Grinding Station as well. I've read many discussions about this also on reddit but they never lead to a clear result. Hope you guys can help me get a better understanding!

Please have in mind that Grinding Station does not differ from ANT due to selections of cards but because of playstyles.
2x Pif and multiple Stormspells does not define Grinding Station (although it is certainly a feature). It's about how and when you play cantrips, what's the role of Infernal (tutor for the win or spell to copy other spells), how do you want to win (classic loop or chain with 8 cards in hand), and so on.
Therefore, be aware so that you can distinguish between Grinding Station and ANT properly and not only because of the lack of Ad Nauseam in certain lists.


New storm player. I fell in love with the deck watching Togores play at Eternal Weekend (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yeF6n_F-0w) and after goldfishing and playing a few games with a friend, I decided to build it on modo and start practicing more seriously.

I'm really digging the Adam Prosak and Carsten Kötter articles, even if 4-3 years old, I still find them useful and well written. Do you recommend me any more up to date articles?

To combine it with my answer above: Jonathan Alexander K. has some interesting articles: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/

[Sloshthedark]

While reading through the pages of this Thread some days ago I've found a list one of you guys made to look at the MUs where the Grinding Station approach really shines on the one hand and where it means a disadvantage compared to lists with AN MD on the other hand (at least preboard).

As far as I remember especially Miracles, Canadian and Patriot where given in this list as improved MUs, while most of the non-blue / Combo as well as UBx-Delver MUs were listed as slightly harder MUs because you lack speed or can not grind against Discard.
This is not my opinion or experience – after all I dont have any experience with lists not running AN MD – just what others said there.



When looking at your metagame in your LGS you seem to just have a lot more of those MUs where grinding isnt that good (referring to the list / discussion ).
Some questions:
Does the EtW instead of 3rd Tendrils compensate for the lack of AN as another way to go of with few ressources?

And does it make that a big difference against decks like BUG Delver, where Ad Nauseam also isnt that good? I really hate this MU and I think its the worst next to Reanimator...

While I see the benefits of grinding against Miracles postboard when we also have Decay/Grip, I also would like to know if it really improves your preboard games – isnt a race here the saver way without any way to remove CB?

Would like to hear your comment on this and maybe some comments from others here who play Grinding Station as well. I've read many discussions about this also on reddit but they never lead to a clear result. Hope you guys can help me get a better understanding!

note that my list is rather rogue, halfway between normal Ant and Grinding station, but I agree with the poster above that the main difference is how you approach your game... my general opinion is that AN is not needed at all outside of Elves, the Mirror and the Hymn MUs - Jund, Sharless, Pox, I'd play it againt 4Hymn UBG ...

imo EtW is waaay better because it provides fast kill with low mana and low storm - which is a weakness of Grinding station, and low life without GY - weakness of AN... both at lower mana investment but sometimes higher risks, I dislike the card but it's too good to ignore

yes, a lot of my wins against UBx come from EtW but tbh it's nearly RL incomparable for me because I rarely play MD Ad Nauseam so it's more what if X was Y and experience what i come from...and I also do not get to play UBG often, I mostly play against Burg - which is my worst MU by far because of his SB and Grixis, I think there is only one guy on BUG localy

I think it's not very different in my case the deck isn't slower at what it does, sometimes you have to take your chances with EtW sometimes you can win even the lategame with good draw (this is rather scarce, but with 3 Toa might be realistic) or dodge CC2 because of more bussiness (I don't know how this lines up with DP, I haven't really played it enough against Miracles)

I don't read reddit, but might be because there is no clear result and it's hard to find anyone who has tested all the versions enough to get near such result

[Jonathan Alexander]

snip

Basically, what Slosh said.

One thing I'd like to add is that the disadvantages of a multiple Tendrils / Past in Flames setup are less pronounced before sideboarding than after and also lower impact than the advantages of said approach. Of course, this is all matchup dependant, and I have taken all multitude of approaches to tournaments in very short periods of time; neither approach is strictly better. My favourite hybrid so far has been the 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Past in Flames 2 Tendrils & 1 Chrome Mox approach - you get to Ad Nauseam people when needed, but you also get to draw Tendrils more often and have the ability to double Tendrils.

I wanted to say something else, but I forgot. Whatever.

Do you mind posting a link to the reddit discussion about Grinding Station? Would be interested in reading.

[Togores]

I have been likimg my aproach of g1 nauseam tendrills and 2 pif. Then 2 tendrills sb to just switch your g1 race counterbalance deck to grinding station. Worked well in the testing and mkm madrid (top4-due a misclick) and will be rocking this idea further.

I sill dont like empty and the 1 top 1 preordain + 1 top sb seemed cool. You can side board really good wig this. Taking out fast or slow cards for faster or slowet ones depending on the matchup.
Still hate death and taxes and will never know if dread is better than masaacre. But will rock massacre just because I hate loosing to revoker and canonist.

[Sloshthedark]

but do not think so...

meanwhile in a parallel universe...

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j378/Sloshthedark/IMG_20160118_184220-1200.jpg


bonus - the classic Enchantress mirror, G1

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j378/Sloshthedark/IMG_20160118_21060222-1200.jpg

[Artemis90]

2x Pif and multiple Stormspells does not define Grinding Station

Sorry for using the wrong term, the lists I referred to are rather hybrids of ANT and the original Grinding Station lists Jonathan introduced in the Grinding Station Thread (with many Storm spells and no infernal tutors maindeck). I just called it Grinding Station because most people seem to do so, but I know that its not correct and also that it means a different way to play the deck (natural Tendrils with 8 cards in hand, playing cantrips in the comboturn to add to the stormcount...).



imo EtW is waaay better because it provides fast kill with low mana and low storm

Yes I agree that EtW is a strong card and especially like it against Delver-Decks and also against D&T (if you cast it early enough) as well as some other decks. I can understand why many Storm players consider it the inferior Storm spell compared to Tendrils, but imho it still gives an advantage in many MUs even preboard.



My favourite hybrid so far has been the 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Past in Flames 2 Tendrils & 1 Chrome Mox approach - you get to Ad Nauseam people when needed, but you also get to draw Tendrils more often and have the ability to double Tendrils.

Do you mind posting a link to the reddit discussion about Grinding Station? Would be interested in reading.

I think 1 Ad nauseam 1 PiF and 2 storm spells with 2 more Storm Spells in the SB is just what I am searching for as a good compromise!

For the discussion about the different MUs I referred to the list here in the Thread on thesource some 50 pages ago. As for reddit there were different discussions, for example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/3tmoef/legacy_storm_questions_for_grinding_stationant/

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/359rzv/can_someone_explain_grinding_station_ant_variant/



I have been likimg my aproach of g1 nauseam tendrills and 2 pif. Then 2 tendrills sb to just switch your g1 race counterbalance deck to grinding station. Worked well in the testing and mkm madrid (top4-due a misclick) and will be rocking this idea further.

I sill dont like empty and the 1 top 1 preordain + 1 top sb seemed cool. You can side board really good wig this. Taking out fast or slow cards for faster or slowet ones depending on the matchup.
Still hate death and taxes and will never know if dread is better than masaacre. But will rock massacre just because I hate loosing to revoker and canonist.

Double PiF is a strong config and I know that Kai has also top8ed the GP Kyoto with it. But I think I still prefer 2 storm spells instead. Concerning top I will try the 1/1 split with preordain and I will also include more Tendrils in SB to do the postboard grinding-transformation as you do!


To sum up my thoughts I would like to refer to the different MUs I expect to be really relevant and write about my approach to them and the cards I like / don't like to have against them.

I want my list to be as balanced as possible against the following common MUs:

Miracles, Delver (RUG/Grixis/BURG/BUG), Shardless BUG, Death & Taxes, Storm, Elves

For Miracles I think its most important to be prepared for the postboard Game. While I think its not that difficult to race through their preboard defense consisting only of FoW and some slow Counterspells, this approach to the MU isn't good after boarding when they have additional flusterstorms, Canonists, Cliques, RiP and sometimes even Extraction. Ad Nauseam seems not necessary preboard and more storm spells are valuable if we can not go the fast way, but I'm also not sure about trying to grind against them without Decays/Grips. In my SB I want more Tendrils, at least 4 (maybe better 5) outs to counterbalnace (some Split between Decays/Grips). Maybe even own Flusterstorms.

RUG Delver is the MU where I really want as many copies of Tendrils/Empty/ PiF as possible, the same thing does apply to Grixis and BURG since they dont seem to have Discard preboard ( at least the majority of lists). At the same time Ad Nauseam is just bad in this MUs because they put early pressure on my life total, have reach with lightning bolts and Force/Daze/Spell Pierce + wasteland/stifle prevent me from using this engine while still at a passable life total. DRS is annoying but not a „hard“ grave-hate, PiF is still an option.
AN is the first card I take out when boarding. If I dont have them MD I side in more Storm spells here. I dont like bringing in green cards while they are attacking my manabase. What I consider really strong here is EtW since they dont seem to have a lot of ways to handle goblins.

BUG Delver is just a bad MU and I dont really know how to make it that much better. They have early stack interaction and hymnes/Thoughtseizes combined with DRS and early pressure through Delver. Another MU where Empty shines, but AN is bad and Grinding isnt a good option as well.

Shardless BUG on the other hand has discard but not much early stack interaction and not that much early pressure, so I like Ad Nauseam here and also EtW (at least preboard, after boarding they might bring charm/pulse/deluge). Maybe I need some Decays or CoV postboard because of White-Splash for Meddling Mage.

For Death and Taxes I prefer a race preboard and I like having AN and EtW (even with SFM into BS they often can not race this, Bryant Cook presents an interesting scale just about this topic on his website). Postboard they load up on hatebears and I wouldnt want to face them without 3 Dread of Nights. I consider Massacre also a good option, but its dangerous with AN and they can often play around it when thy expect it (what many D&T players seem to do...). Also CoV is good here I think.

In the Mirrormatch and against Elves I want AN already preboard and some flusterstorms postboard – and maybe removal for elves.

Beside these common MUs there are of course a lot more MUs I dont face that often. Concerning AN I do want it preboard against decks like Sneak Show , 12 Post and MUD, while its close to useless against Burn and also probably also not that good against Goblins and Merfolk.

Looking at this overview I think I still want to have AN in my maindeck, although I know that the speed advantage isnt that big compared to lists not running it maindeck. Also I want 2 Storm Spells in the MD, but I'm not sure if 2 Tendrils or a split of 1 Tendrils/1 EtW is more „balanced“/flexible (the config nevilshute runs in his current videos minus DP ) . Without a second copy of Tendrils in the MD I would not be able to tutor for double Tendrils preboard, but I would still have a much higher chance of drawing into a Storm Spell and just play it from my hand with goblins often being nearly as good as Tendrils against Delver. And having Empty preboard gives more speed/ options.

Beside this config of 1 AN / 1 PiF / 2 Storm Spells I think I want to have at least one card that improves Ad Nauseam (Rain of Filth and / or Chrome Mox).

Please feel free to comment and correct me if my views on the MUs or the cards I talked about are not adequate or even wrong. I appreciate every help/advice.

[ScottW]

[QUOTE=Sloshthedark;926838]meanwhile in a parallel universe...

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j378/Sloshthedark/IMG_20160118_184220-1200.jpg

Sloshthedark,

Please post a photo of your list in the pimp thread. That's a nice looking deck! Makes me feel cheap with my FBB duals.

[Quasim0ff]

Sloshthedark,

Please post a photo of your list in the pimp thread. That's a nice looking deck! Makes me feel cheap with my FBB duals.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=790142&viewfull=1#post790142

[Sloshthedark]

Please post a photo of your list in the pimp thread. That's a nice looking deck! Makes me feel cheap with my FBB duals.

Thanks, the duals are altered Unlimited though...


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=790142&viewfull=1#post790142

Thanks, damn I'm still missing on jap foil CoV =/ also the Alpha Bolts have risen in price a bit, I'll never finish the set...

[meffeo]

Thanks, the duals are altered Unlimited though...



Thanks, damn I'm still missing on jap foil CoV =/ also the Alpha Bolts have risen in price a bit, I'll never finish the set...

Nonetheless, it's a sick deck, Martin. Wonderful.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Haven't played Magic in months because of work/job/etc, but probably getting back into some Legacy now. Thanks to nevilshute for those videos, very nice to watch while I do some work!

[nevilshute]

Haven't played Magic in months because of work/job/etc, but probably getting back into some Legacy now. Thanks to nevilshute for those videos, very nice to watch while I do some work!

Heyo Wilson, glad to see you are still alive! I hope to keep making videos in the coming weeks/months if time/energy allows for it :smile: On that note, what are the chances of some more podcast episodes? Is that completely dead now?

I think I'm going to be heading back to my old 3 storm / 2 past in flames build with Ad Nauseam in the sideboard. It's been fun casting main deck Ad Naseaums but nothing has really changed my overall view on the card's place in the deck, the way I play it anyway. I have a great deal of respect for the results Caleb Scherer has been putting up but I guess it comes down to playstyle and temperament as well.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Heyo Wilson, glad to see you are still alive! I hope to keep making videos in the coming weeks/months if time/energy allows for it :smile: On that note, what are the chances of some more podcast episodes? Is that completely dead now?

I think I'm going to be heading back to my old 3 storm / 2 past in flames build with Ad Nauseam in the sideboard. It's been fun casting main deck Ad Naseaums but nothing has really changed my overall view on the card's place in the deck, the way I play it anyway. I have a great deal of respect for the results Caleb Scherer has been putting up but I guess it comes down to playstyle and temperament as well.

Hey man, the plan is to start back on the podcast this semester. We are also thinking about streaming some Storm with commentary, just downloaded some streaming software. We were bummed about not being able to do much last semester, but Paul's first semester in medical school coupled my work/family commitments made it really hard to find mutual time to do it. Thanks a ton for the videos, enjoyed listening to/watching them yesterday while I worked!

Edit: By the way, has anyone tried doing Google hangouts as a method for discussing Legacy/Storm? We were thinking of trying this so that we could do a live interactive show where people can comment during the discussion. We would also record and post it. Just exploring different options for producing Legacy content.

[Sloshthedark]

Nonetheless, it's a sick deck, Martin. Wonderful.
thanks, buddy


...

...

I like what I read there, eagerly awaiting...

hangouts - no idea, never used it

[Jonathan Alexander]

Edit: By the way, has anyone tried doing Google hangouts as a method for discussing Legacy/Storm? We were thinking of trying this so that we could do a live interactive show where people can comment during the discussion. We would also record and post it. Just exploring different options for producing Legacy content.

Mind explaining what that is? #kiblergoogle

[Julian23]

Google Hangouts is basically a cloud version of Skype video chat.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Mind explaining what that is? #kiblergoogle

Basically the idea would be to stream a 3-way video call live with Phil, Paul, and me (Brainstorm Show cast) so that people can comment while we discuss various topics. We would record and then post the "show" so that anyone can watch after the fact.

Pros:
-Interactive
-Fluid
-Visual makes things more entertaining

Cons:
-Not as streamlined as a planned-out podcast episode
-More difficult to figure out because we've never done it
-Would basically be a complicated podcast episode if no one tuned in live or got involved in the chat

[Jonathan Alexander]

Cons:
-Not as streamlined as a planned-out podcast episode
-Would basically be a complicated podcast episode if no one tuned in live or got involved in the chat

Isn't it possible to just ask questions beforehand? I think a Storm FAQ would be great anyway, and it might also be helpful to do it periodically to keep up with current metagame evolutions.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Isn't it possible to just ask questions beforehand? I think a Storm FAQ would be great anyway, and it might also be helpful to do it periodically to keep up with current metagame evolutions.

Yeah for sure. We have done Q&A podcast episodes before which is certainly a fun option. For reference here is the Storm episode we did last year: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-002-ad-nauseam-tendrils-ant/.

I was watching a Google Hangouts episode of a group of miniatures gamers which is where I got the idea. It's basically like streaming meets podcasting - we would be streaming a group discussion with an active chat and then later post the episode on YouTube or our website for people to view if they want to. This is just a thought for down the road if people think it would be fun or interesting. I talked to the guys this morning, and we are planning to record a podcast episode on Thursday night to hopefully get back into the groove (means the episode would probably be posted this weekend). I miss talking about Legacy and especially Storm!