[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[mechint]

hello i'm new player of storm and i have some questions for sideboard plans , i play strict maindeck and sideboard of Caleb scherer
for repeal : 2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
1 Rain of Filth
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Rebuild
1 Sylvan Library
1 Tropical Island



i ask you'r help for this mu

burn :
-3 duress
-3 cabal therapy
-1 island
-1 ad nauseam
-1 gitaxian probe
+3 abrupt decay
+ 2 disfigure
+ 1 tropical island
+ 1 tendrils of agony
+ 2 chain of vapor

uwr miracles
-1 island
-2 lotus petal
-1 rain of fliths
-2 cabal ritual
-2 preordain
-1 dark petition
+ 3 abrupt decay
+ 1 sylvan Library
+ 1 tropical island
+1 cabal therapy
+1 tendrils of agony
+ 2 xantid swarm

death and taxes
-3 duress
+2 chain of vapor
+ 1 cabal therapy

what do you think ? , i wait your responses , thanks :)

[Sloshthedark]

hello i'm new player of storm and i have some questions for sideboard plans , i play strict maindeck and sideboard of Caleb scherer
for repeal

what do you think ? , i wait your responses , thanks :)

first of all just delete the Sylvan library from your decklist, please... then:

Burn
+3AD +2CoV +EtW +Trop, +CT, +ToA,
-Island, -CR, -RoF, -LP, -GP, -1 Preordain, -Ad Nauseam ,-2 Duress

dropping discard means you're always in a reactive position and always shock yourself in front of Eidolon/Pillar, so I'd leave 4CT for sure... AD might not even have a target whole game, also Disfigure vs. Pillar, not good... discard usually buys you a turn at least

Miracles
unclear, I'd agree with what is at your disposal +EtW, the Library might be actualy ok, but come on, I also don't lie XS but there is not much space for improvising... you can have a fast or more grindy setup... I'd leave all LP all Tutors, or SB out AN and all LP and won't ever go under 3CR

D+T
+2 Disfigure +2CoV +CT +EtW
-3Duress -CR -GP -Preordain

[mechint]

thanks for you response , i'm not sure for miracles , miracles play rest in peace after side and cabal ritual is not good versus rip :/

and versus tempo ( ***** , team america , grixis ... )
-2 preordain
-1 ad nauseam
-2 dark petition
-1 island
-1 rains of fliths for
+ 2 swarm
+1 cabal therapy
+1 trop
+1 tendrils
+1 etw
+ 1 tropical island

Elves
-2 preordain
+ 2 chain

Shardless
-2 preodain
-1 dp
-1 petal
-1 cabal ritual
+2 chain
+1 etw
+2 disfigure




thank you for your patience, but I find it very hard sider with the deck :)

[OlegtheSuper]

Dear Stormriders

Please tell me do you SBin flusterstorms vs Elves? I've found it useful in early game to protect my hand and counter fast order. But it is a dead card for rest of the deck except 17 cards. Dead draw in middle-lategame

[Ronald Deuce]

Dear Stormriders

Please tell me do you SBin flusterstorms vs Elves? I've found it useful in early game to protect my hand and counter fast order. But it is a dead card for rest of the deck except 17 cards. Dead draw in middle-lategame

I just played my first (casual) matchup against Elves the other day. I lost both games, but game 1 I made a bit of a stupid call and went for EtW instead of Ad Nauseam. Lesson learned. It's a poor excuse, but I was a bit rusty after about a week of nofuntimes. (I'm counting the prerelease, in which I managed to pull THREE KOR KNIGHTS, AN ELDRAZI DO-NOTHING, AND A HEDRON ALIGNMENT. Thanks, Obama. At least I went 3-1 in Sealed.)

What about Sudden Shock? Seems like it gets around most of Wirewood Symbiote's shenanigans, but it feels too narrow to use in multiples. Any other thoughts? What about Mindbreak Trap? I'm curious about this matchup.

[nevilshute]

Empty always comes out vs Elves for me. It's an unsustainable route most of the time.

I don't bring in countermagic vs elves

[Sloshthedark]

Empty always comes out vs Elves for me. It's an unsustainable route most of the time.

I don't bring in countermagic vs elves

true, G1 is hard to win with EtW, G2 might be because their deck is diluted with discard but I'd stick to better Ad Nauseam ... I board in Ad Nauseam and +/- 2-3 bounce/sweeper/AD

Sudden shock? - never played it, but should be better than disfigure if you have 2R duals, I wouldn't care about Elves specifically while building a SB


thanks for you response , i'm not sure for miracles , miracles play rest in peace after side and cabal ritual is not good versus rip :/

thank you for your patience, but I find it very hard sider with the deck :)

there is usualy only 0-2 Rip

Tempo - ok, but XS is not good vs discard, where AN might be decent and the 2nd Island is probably there because of such decks so I'd go up a land

Elves - I'd add disfigure

Shardless +/- ok, depends if they splash W, I'd leave 4 LP, EtW might (not) be good I'd play it onplay or G3

- note that there is no general guide (unless Caleb has some), your own experience and critical view on your game is your best guide... I haven't created the list, I wouldn't play it, just writing down what I'd do if I were you

[ThomasDowd]

Yeah for sure. We have done Q&A podcast episodes before which is certainly a fun option. For reference here is the Storm episode we did last year: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-002-ad-nauseam-tendrils-ant/.

I was watching a Google Hangouts episode of a group of miniatures gamers which is where I got the idea. It's basically like streaming meets podcasting - we would be streaming a group discussion with an active chat and then later post the episode on YouTube or our website for people to view if they want to. This is just a thought for down the road if people think it would be fun or interesting. I talked to the guys this morning, and we are planning to record a podcast episode on Thursday night to hopefully get back into the groove (means the episode would probably be posted this weekend). I miss talking about Legacy and especially Storm!

There was a doomsday google hangout like 2 years ago I want to say?

was enjoyable

[Patrunkenphat7]

There was a doomsday google hangout like 2 years ago I want to say?

was enjoyable

Oh cool! Any idea if this was recorded and posted somewhere?

And to add to the above comments - I board out Empty vs Elves.

[thefringthing]

Because Elves seems to be playing Ruric Thar over Gaddock Teeg lately, maybe Deathmark is better than Disfigure?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Because Elves seems to be playing Ruric Thar over Gaddock Teeg lately, maybe Deathmark is better than Disfigure?

Or maybe Chain is still just the best card for that slot.

[Ronald Deuce]

Or maybe Chain is still just the best card for that slot.

I'd considered running Perish for a bit in order to deal with [green]ball decks, but that wouldn't help deal with a Craterhoof because Perish is a sorcery, and three mana's too much. I'm inclined to agree with you, especially because Elves doesn't have Mom to stop point-kills/bounce.

[thefringthing]

If you cut Disfigure for Chain, are you bringing in Chain against Grixis or are you just letting them have their Deathrite?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I consider Empty to be the best plan against Grixis. If they have everything, they have everything. Two copies of Disfigure don't change that.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I consider Empty to be the best plan against Grixis. If they have everything, they have everything. Two copies of Disfigure don't change that.

Agreed, Grixis is a fantastic matchup if you have Empty in your deck, and I wouldn't waste slots killing Deathrite. The only way they can beat you other than you just drawing a really unlucky hand is a good Probe/Therapy draw against a hand that is weak to Probe/Therapy. Both the PiFs and Empty are great in this matchup, and I don't like diluting the deck.

I actually tested Disfigures at one point in 2013. They were not bad, but in the end they wasted valuable SB slots for me. I would consider playing them only if Shardless splashing white became the absolute #1 deck to beat.

[nevilshute]

Couple of more videos. I've been trying hard to get some "live" matches in, but it's just been impossible with my 4-week old son. With these already-played matches I can just leave the computer when he starts crying and clear it out in editing :smile:

But anyway, hope you enjoy:


https://youtu.be/qLL6EJUCzNs

https://youtu.be/KC-NVJcDFkI

[Sloshthedark]

Couple of more videos. I've been trying hard to get some "live" matches in, but it's just been impossible with my 4-week old son. With these already-played matches I can just leave the computer when he starts crying and clear it out in editing :smile:

But anyway, hope you enjoy:


https://youtu.be/qLL6EJUCzNs

https://youtu.be/KC-NVJcDFkI
Thanks for the vids! I think the prerecorded format is good, it shorter, the commentary is more thought through, but it's probably more timeconsuming for you with the rewatching/editing...

btw. I also think it'd be worth to include losing vids (if have some ;) if those have some interesting scenarios in it

https://youtu.be/qLL6EJUCzNs?t=6m33s
I don't like this much, because you can get Wasted out of B and the best plan here is Duress into xyz ->IT PIF EtW anyway as it gives more tokens and is easily lethal drawing more mana/GP or some interaction for 20 gobbos or ToA itself, the Volc has some sense if you wanted to utilize the Therapy with EtW into kill, but that's a corner case scenario which expect heavier resistance and either a winmore or unlikely in the context... therefore I don't like the IT for DR in the combo turn .. it'd be interesting to figure out whether EtW or a PIF+cantrip lottery gives you more %

EDIT - assuming Opp is is like 55%spells at this point, so roughly - double bolt, BS, cantrip -> Bolt+flip next turn kill you, so I guess the EtW+BS line is like 25-35%, likely more with chances to cantrip - IT, or IT ftw.

run a quick simulation - assuming PIF line DR-IT-LED = 4U, B floating - Preordain, Ponder, BS

~win by EtW for 22+ discarding bolt - 13/20
win by ToA - 5/20
loss - 2/20

I'm a bit surprised, would guess in 70% range

https://youtu.be/qLL6EJUCzNs?t=23m37s

I think it's worth keeping, you have him dead if doesn't Fluster DR1 (he kind of screwed this G1) with ramp into TOA, IT->PIF/2nd ToA

ANT vs. ANT

I don't like Opponents play at all...

[Quasim0ff]

https://youtu.be/qLL6EJUCzNs?t=546

At this point, I think you have to name bolt. It makes them having to flip Delver this turn or die. If they don't, they are a turn too short.

[nevilshute]

Thanks a lot for watching and for the comments!


Thanks for the vids! I think the prerecorded format is good, it shorter, the commentary is more thought through, but it's probably more timeconsuming for you with the rewatching/editing...

btw. I also think it'd be worth to include losing vids (if have some ;) if those have some interesting scenarios in it

https://youtu.be/qLL6EJUCzNs?t=6m33s
I don't like this much, because you can get Wasted out of B and the best plan here is Duress into xyz ->IT PIF EtW anyway as it gives more tokens and is easily lethal drawing more mana/GP or some interaction for 20 gobbos or ToA itself, the Volc has some sense if you wanted to utilize the Therapy with EtW into kill, but that's a corner case scenario which expect heavier resistance and either a winmore or unlikely in the context... therefore I don't like the IT for DR in the combo turn .. it'd be interesting to figure out whether EtW or a PIF+cantrip lottery gives you more %

EDIT - assuming Opp is is like 55%spells at this point, so roughly - double bolt, BS, cantrip -> Bolt+flip next turn kill you, so I guess the EtW+BS line is like 25-35%, likely more with chances to cantrip - IT, or IT ftw.

run a quick simulation - assuming PIF line DR-IT-LED = 4U, B floating - Preordain, Ponder, BS

~win by EtW for 22+ discarding bolt - 13/20
win by ToA - 5/20
loss - 2/20

I'm a bit surprised, would guess in 70% range

https://youtu.be/qLL6EJUCzNs?t=23m37s

I think it's worth keeping, you have him dead if doesn't Fluster DR1 (he kind of screwed this G1) with ramp into TOA, IT->PIF/2nd ToA

ANT vs. ANT

I don't like Opponents play at all...

I never lose! In all seriousness though that's why I'd much rather record "live". I find my motivation for sitting down and doing commentary on a match I lost is somehow hard to summon. Unless there is some clear cut very interesting scenario. Having said that I have done it in the past and will do it again. But yeah, I hope to get to do more commentating during actual matches.

Btw I didn't consider going over the top of that Flusterstorm (if he doesn't fluster the first DR) that's a really strong line that I think I would do if I was in that situation again.


https://youtu.be/qLL6EJUCzNs?t=546

At this point, I think you have to name bolt. It makes them having to flip Delver this turn or die. If they don't, they are a turn too short.

Yeah I'm beginning to feel that way too.

[Sloshthedark]

Thanks a lot for watching and for the comments!

I never lose! In all seriousness though that's why I'd much rather record "live". I find my motivation for sitting down and doing commentary on a match I lost is somehow hard to summon. Unless there is some clear cut very interesting scenario. Having said that I have done it in the past and will do it again. But yeah, I hope to get to do more commentating during actual matches.

Btw I didn't consider going over the top of that Flusterstorm (if he doesn't fluster the first DR) that's a really strong line that I think I would do if I was in that situation again.


We all do ;) but the good about losing is there is often something to learn... I understand, your winning motivation is still awesome, I'd struggle to do so. For me the vids are really interesting because you play similar lists to mine in a similar way, since Max ceased to stream I don't know any Storm dedicated content... As my Mtg fix I'm following 10-20 streams and sites and fish for Storm matches, all I get is 1/5 worth watching at best and have to go through stuff like P1 - T1 CoV 0, P2 - go for it T1 with LED... so it's a delight when you post something...



Yeah I'm beginning to feel that way too.

I'm not sure about that, when I was watching the vid Bolt would be my instinct naming, but I was thinking about your choice and believe it's a good one in the context of what you were trying to do, did not pan out at this instance but Opp has to have some combination of Mongooses, Bolts, Goyfs, Brainstorms and Ponders in hand (less likely Forked bolt, Dismember), out of all those cards BS makes it the most likely for him to win (having you dead with Delvers while having chances to further disrupt you), is it less likely that he has it according to his plays? Maybe a little bit... if he has the Bolt any flip will do... hard to say

[Quasim0ff]

I'm not sure about that, when I was watching the vid Bolt would be my instinct naming, but I was thinking about your choice and believe it's a good one in the context of what you were trying to do, did not pan out at this instance but Opp has to have some combination of Mongooses, Bolts, Goyfs, Brainstorms and Ponders in hand (less likely Forked bolt, Dismember), out of all those cards BS makes it the most likely for him to win (having you dead with Delvers while having chances to further disrupt you), is it less likely that he has it according to his plays? Maybe a little bit... if he has the Bolt any flip will do... hard to say
Main point for naming bolt was basically that one brainstorm had already passed. If he had Bs, there was a high change, I think, of him wanting to brainstorm in order to be able to force a spell rather than spell pierce it, meaning it'd have to be either ponder/bolt, I think.

[nevilshute]

http://i.imgur.com/p80GEX3.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65YQ4FZp-o4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLrKCUJLfY4

[fluuu]

What do u guys think about young pyro in sb? Thanks!

[Sloshthedark]

Main point for naming bolt was basically that one brainstorm had already passed. If he had Bs, there was a high change, I think, of him wanting to brainstorm in order to be able to force a spell rather than spell pierce it, meaning it'd have to be either ponder/bolt, I think.

What do you mean, there is only a Ponder in the yard... but it would make more sense to let the Duress resolve rather than SP it if he had the BS, he already let a DR pass when he could have SPed (to bluff FoW, probably)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65YQ4FZp-o4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLrKCUJLfY4

M1G1 interesting, I like it... btw. why keep 2ToA? and I guess you wanted to board the 2nd SDT

M2G1 I love how he stops the Remora after you present the perfect Threshold manabase, the Jace play, just, well... G2 I'd have GPed because you can go and they play CS (maybe CB) or cast what you topdeck

thanks for 2 short bedtime stories... opponents do not seem to be very challenging on the single queue for easy dreaming =D


What do u guys think about young pyro in sb? Thanks!

I don't like - Miracles usualy expect it, I don't see much use outside of that, also causes weird G3, suboptimal commitment of resources and it's hard to keep secret at smaller tournaments

[Ronald Deuce]

What do u guys think about young pyro in sb? Thanks!

I kicked around the idea for a while, but I feel like it's slower than our other sb win-cons (Empty and/or AdN) and it can't keep pace with Mentor (FYI, someone tried Mentors not too long ago and it didn't go very well).

I liked the idea that it can start popping out dudes against Miracles or other matchups in which we're likely to get half our gas countered, but Miracles has plenty of fixes for it anyway and it doesn't hit as quickly as Empty.

Don't get me wrong: I love the card, but I don't think it's our best bet because we're not running much countermagic. Pyro really shines when he's got backup, and that's something we can't really afford to give.

[JamieW89]

Played some Legacy for the first time in over a month today (2 DP/1 EtW/1 SDT/6 Discard/1 Preordain main, nothing too fancy SB).

Round-1: 4c Delver 2-0 (As it goes..)
Round-2: Pox 2-0 (He didn't draw enough hate, so was fairly simple.)
Round-3: Sneak & Show 2-1 (Lost a game to Leyline without outs, hadn't seen it for a while. A pretty interesting scenario game-1: He emrakul'd my face, and then a few turns passed before I found another land. I had DR,CR,LED,IT,Duress or something and my ritual resolved (his mistake), he then pierced my Duress with FoW,Blank (another mistake, he played an unknown land rather than this one),Unknown in his hand. I opted to go for the kill rather than discarding his fow and giving him a topdeck for the win. Turned out to be correct; the unknown card was a petal.)
Round-4 & 5: ID's
QF: Reanimate 2-1 (I make tokens after he bins Iona g1. He destroys me g2. He bricks on a reanimation spell in 4 draws or so g3.)
SF: Dark Maverick 0-2 (Teeg destroys me, I should mulligan better against these kind of decks.)

Nice vids btw, Martin :).

[BeardTron]

Went 3-1 in last night's MTGO Daily and I have a thought about Burn based on a game from last night. We're in Game 3 and he has a Pillar in play. He suspends two Rift Bolt and passes. I do the math and the best I can do on my turn is Tendrils him down to 6 and then his Bolts come off suspend bringing him to 2, which puts him under a lock from his own pillar and I just kicked back and waited for my PiF>Tendrils for the win.

I run a 2nd Tendrils in my SB for Miracles, but I wonder if it'd be an option vs Burn, too. Mini tendrils and then let them get locked by their own Eidolon/Pillar. I have to admit, I was extremely satisfied at how he died lol. I'm not a fan of Burn.

For those interested, I ran 1 Ad Nauseam/1 PiF/1 Tendrils/ 1 Grim Tutor (testing a lot w this trying to make a decision vs DP) I also run Rain of Filth. 15 Lands. I will say I did have a game where if Grim was DP I couldn't have gone...

W vs Burn
W vs D&T (thank you Turn 1 Ad Nauseam win and T2 12 Goblins)
W vs Aggro Loam
L vs Hex Depths (I played like a clown this round)

[Mattincognito]

Relatively new storm player here. Looking to start playing them at the SCGs in the northeast. I have been fine as far as seeing the lines, and playing around disruption thus far. My real issue is with sideboarding (I apologize I know this is a common question) and I am working through my matchups with my testing group. In general, since this is such a lean combo deck how many cards are you guys looking to board in most matchups? I'd guess around 5 not counting the tropical island? Are there any matchups where you bring in more, if so what are they? Trying to finalize my board plans going into SCG Philly

[Patrunkenphat7]

Relatively new storm player here. Looking to start playing them at the SCGs in the northeast. I have been fine as far as seeing the lines, and playing around disruption thus far. My real issue is with sideboarding (I apologize I know this is a common question) and I am working through my matchups with my testing group. In general, since this is such a lean combo deck how many cards are you guys looking to board in most matchups? I'd guess around 5 not counting the tropical island? Are there any matchups where you bring in more, if so what are they? Trying to finalize my board plans going into SCG Philly

My approach is to never look at it as "how many cards do I generally board in," but rather, what can I replace in my maindeck without sacrificing the consistency of the combo while also adding enough answers to my opponent's likely post-SB answers? For me the maindeck flex slots include my 7 discard, my 2nd maindeck Past in Flames, sometimes the maindeck Empty the Warrens, and the second basic Island. If you run Preordains I think those are options as well, but I don't run any Preordains. Some people board out Lotus Petals, but I haven't found any matchups where I want to board out a Petal (my personal preference).

To give you random examples from my SBing plan:

Death and Taxes:
+2 Massacre, +3 Chain of Vapor, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-4 Duress, -3 Cabal Therapy, -1 Past in Flames (the 2nd in my maindeck)

RUG Delver:
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek (8th discard spell)
-1 Past in Flames (the 2nd in my maindeck)

Note that I run 6 tutors, Empty the Warrens maindeck, and no Ad Nauseam.

Also note that in one of these matchups I am boarding in 8 cards, and in the other I am boarding in only 1. Generally you will find that you need to board in more cards against decks with permanent-based hate and fewer cards against tempo decks relying heavily on countermagic. Do not be tempted to feel like you need to always board in a certain number of cards against decks, and I recommend you leave your Tropical Islands and green cards in the SB against tempo decks with Wasteland.

Good luck learning this sweet deck, and welcome to one of the most fun archetype communities on The Source!

[nevilshute]

My approach is to never look at it as "how many cards do I generally board in," but rather, what can I replace in my maindeck without sacrificing the consistency of the combo while also adding enough answers to my opponent's likely post-SB answers? For me the maindeck flex slots include my 7 discard, my 2nd maindeck Past in Flames, sometimes the maindeck Empty the Warrens, and the second basic Island. If you run Preordains I think those are options as well, but I don't run any Preordains. Some people board out Lotus Petals, but I haven't found any matchups where I want to board out a Petal (my personal preference).

To give you random examples from my SBing plan:

Death and Taxes:
+2 Massacre, +3 Chain of Vapor, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-4 Duress, -3 Cabal Therapy, -1 Past in Flames (the 2nd in my maindeck)

RUG Delver:
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek (8th discard spell)
-1 Past in Flames (the 2nd in my maindeck)

Note that I run 6 tutors, Empty the Warrens maindeck, and no Ad Nauseam.

Also note that in one of these matchups I am boarding in 8 cards, and in the other I am boarding in only 1. Generally you will find that you need to board in more cards against decks with permanent-based hate and fewer cards against tempo decks relying heavily on countermagic. Do not be tempted to feel like you need to always board in a certain number of cards against decks, and I recommend you leave your Tropical Islands and green cards in the SB against tempo decks with Wasteland.

Good luck learning this sweet deck, and welcome to one of the most fun archetype communities on The Source!

Just curious about you boarding out the 2nd PiF vs RUG delver? It remains incredibly strong against them and they have a very limited amount of ways to fight the yard (usually 1-2 cards after board)

[Patrunkenphat7]

Just curious about you boarding out the 2nd PiF vs RUG delver? It remains incredibly strong against them and they have a very limited amount of ways to fight the yard (usually 1-2 cards after board)

PiF is certainly one of the 2 best strategies against RUG Delver (along with a quick Empty), but I board out the 2nd copy of PiF because I don't find a need to naturally draw it post-SB when I'm not facing the threat of discard. RUG Delver is such a good matchup that I would rather go the conservative route of increasing discard and decreasing the chance I might lose to something annoying like a Grafdigger's Cage. I wouldn't fault anyone for leaving it in, but it's the most conservative cut in my opinion.

[Sloshthedark]

@Beardtron - yes I'd always recommend additional ToA. it lowers the life threshold you can kill them with Pillar on the table, also if they scenarios like yours where you can get a lot of time or lock them into multi fireblasting you


Just curious about you boarding out the 2nd PiF vs RUG delver? It remains incredibly strong against them and they have a very limited amount of ways to fight the yard (usually 1-2 cards after board)

also curious about your list/sb, I recall you sported 2gt lists and additional sb discard, I wondering whats your starting point now

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Beardtron - yes I'd always recommend additional ToA. it lowers the life threshold you can kill them with Pillar on the table, also if they scenarios like yours where you can get a lot of time or lock them into multi fireblasting you



also curious about your list/sb, I recall you sported 2gt lists and additional sb discard, I wondering whats your starting point now

This is my current list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
2 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB
1 Tropical Island
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Massacre
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

[jayce]

What is everyone's thoughts on 2x Dark Petitions? Is it strictly better than one, or is it meta specific?

[nevilshute]

I know that Patrunkenphat7 and friends have worked out that going from 5 to 6 tutors ups your percentages of finding a tutor by turn 2 significantly. I don't know the math behind this and subsequently can't verify it but that's that.

I would say that running 2 petitions should in theory severely hamper your Ad Nauseam if you are running that in the main deck. And were it not for Caleb Scherer's continuous results with 2x DP, 1 AN lists I would be staunch in that stance.

I'm currently trying out a 1/1 split of Dark Petition / Grim Tutor in order to try the 6-tutor plan but I'm running Ad Nauseam in the sideboard. I like Grim Tutor in builds where you're running main deck Empty the Warrens. If I owned 2 Grim Tutors I'd probably try out 2 Grims, but I only own one and I think Dark Petition is quite excellent too so I'm happy with this split.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I still haven't made up my mind about Dark Petition. But I have to say that I generally seem to value Tutor effects lower than most other players; in my eyes they are the worst actual business spells in the deck. That being said, it is likely correct that you want 6 rather than 5 if your goal is to have one on turn two. Friends of mine did similar math regarding the number of Noble Hierarchs / Deathrite Shamans in Modern Zoo back in the day and came to the conclusion that seven copies maximised your chances of drawing exactly one in your opening hand.
It is also worth noting that the impact of additional high CMC cards on your Ad Nauseams is usually exaggerated. I did a lot of goldfishing on this last year (>100 attempts per configuration) and came to the conclusion that a 2 Ad Nauseam 1 Past in Flames 1 Tendrils 1 Chrome Mox list has better Ad Nauseams than a list that has additional cantrips in place of the second Ad Nauseam and the Mox, despite the fact that the first setup has a literal dead 5 CMC card in the deck.
If you want to improve your Ad Nauseams, you should tweak the amount of non-land initial mana sources in your deck. To be fair though, going to great lengths to improve your Ad Nauseams is rarely worth it, as that's only the case in very specific metagames in which you probably shouldn't even be playing Storm.

[nevilshute]

I still haven't made up my mind about Dark Petition. But I have to say that I generally seem to value Tutor effects lower than most other players; in my eyes they are the worst actual business spells in the deck. That being said, it is likely correct that you want 6 rather than 5 if your goal is to have one on turn two. Friends of mine did similar math regarding the number of Noble Hierarchs / Deathrite Shamans in Modern Zoo back in the day and came to the conclusion that seven copies maximised your chances of drawing exactly one in your opening hand.
It is also worth noting that the impact of additional high CMC cards on your Ad Nauseams is usually exaggerated. I did a lot of goldfishing on this last year (>100 attempts per configuration) and came to the conclusion that a 2 Ad Nauseam 1 Past in Flames 1 Tendrils 1 Chrome Mox list has better Ad Nauseams than a list that has additional cantrips in place of the second Ad Nauseam and the Mox, despite the fact that the first setup has a literal dead 5 CMC card in the deck.
If you want to improve your Ad Nauseams, you should tweak the amount of non-land initial mana sources in your deck. To be fair though, going to great lengths to improve your Ad Nauseams is rarely worth it, as that's only the case in very specific metagames in which you probably shouldn't even be playing Storm.


Hey Jonathan. In what storm-hostile meta is an Ad Nauseam centric list preferable in your opinion? What are the characteristics of such a meta? :smile:

[Jonathan Alexander]

Metagames with lots of Reanimator, MUD, 12 Post; decks like that. If there is a huge amount of decks that can lock you of a game, you want to be fast. Also, most importantly, Storm. The storm mirror is miserable and I'd rather play almost any other real deck against Storm. I also think it's preferred against Infect. I used to think it was the best plan against BUG decks as well, but I'd much rather have Empties against Team America.

There are also several decks where it's undoubtedly better to have access to early Ad Nauseams, but the difference is negligible in preboard games.

[OlegtheSuper]

Dear Stormriders.

Please tell me how do you sb vs Infect? This deck has so many different hatecards like stifle, spell pierce, fow, crop+bojuka, cage, fluster, may be rip and leyline.
Do we need flusters vs cards like envigorate/berserk? I think yes.
Do we need more than 2 decays? I think no.
Do we need need kgrip vs nexuses, leylines, cages, rips? I think no except situations where opp leads or leyline.
Do we have to sbout tops as a slow card?
Do we need to sbin xantid swarm? I think it is slow vs infect so no.
Am i correct?

[phazonmutant]

Dear Stormriders.

Please tell me how do you sb vs Infect? This deck has so many different hatecards like stifle, spell pierce, fow, crop+bojuka, cage, fluster, may be rip and leyline.
Do we need flusters vs cards like envigorate/berserk? I think yes.
Do we need more than 2 decays? I think no.
Do we need need kgrip vs nexuses, leylines, cages, rips? I think no except situations where opp leads or leyline.
Do we have to sbout tops as a slow card?
Do we need to sbin xantid swarm? I think it is slow vs infect so no.
Am i correct?

I find that the matchup is actually quite easy. Their deck sometimes nut draws you, but most of the time, discard allows you to disrupt their combo until you kill them or take their disruption and again kill them. They just rarely have hands that are redundant disruption + combo.

No KGrip, Decay, none of that shit. If they have hatebears, then maybe a Chain or two is fine, but just try to go faster.

My plan is -1 PiF (2 main), -1 Top (1 main), and board in Xantid Swarms. Flusterstorm is ok, but not at the expense of going slower.

[nevilshute]

I find that the matchup is actually quite easy. Their deck sometimes nut draws you, but most of the time, discard allows you to disrupt their combo until you kill them or take their disruption and again kill them. They just rarely have hands that are redundant disruption + combo.

No KGrip, Decay, none of that shit. If they have hatebears, then maybe a Chain or two is fine, but just try to go faster.

My plan is -1 PiF (2 main), -1 Top (1 main), and board in Xantid Swarms. Flusterstorm is ok, but not at the expense of going slower.

This, precisely this. I've never seen the sense in bringing in removal against Infect and it feels like a fine match up. Their nut draw kills you on turn 2 with force/daze backup. If they have that then it's likely GG. Unless we have our nut draw which kills them on turn 1 through duress/therapy.

Other than that it's a classic combo-with-counters vs combo-with-discard. Do you bring in shit like krosan grip and Pithing needle vs sneaky show? No.

Like Phazonmutant mentions Xantid Swarm is fine tech against them but I won't board in much else (running Ad Nauseam in the sideboard, that comes in too)

[OlegtheSuper]

nevilshute, phazonmutant, thank you very much!

[Patrunkenphat7]

nevilshute, phazonmutant, thank you very much!

I agree with what these guys are saying and think it touches on a general point to be careful about not over-SBing with Storm. On SCG coverage I often see Decays and Chains against Delver decks and the like, and that strategy makes the deck incredibly inconsistent post-SB. Infect specifically is a great matchup if you utilize your Xantid Swarms and stick with the core gameplan. Don't be tilted if you lose to their god draws every now and then because that happens. In a lot of ways it's like the Sneak and Show matchup but with more temptations for boarding in questionable SB cards.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I tend to board in a couple of Decays / Chains against Infect, but that is mostly due to the fact that I don't often have Swarms in my sideboard and you want to be Ad Nauseam Tendrils against them, which is a 58 card deck. Xantid Swarms are preferable though and you should definitely board them in if you have them, as you should against every other Force of Will combo deck; they really shine in these matchups.

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm a pretty big fan of Chain of Vapor. It's probably the card I side in against the most decks because it's so versatile. Also, it can enable threshold and up storm count at the same time by targeting our own mana artifacts. I even thought about maindecking a copy because Preordain and (sometimes) Duress haven't done me a whole lot of good and I often side them out.

I've not had a lot of success with Xantid, but I have a feeling that's mostly because I've only got one, so it doesn't show up very often. It did win me a game once by baiting countermagic and upping the storm count.

I've been trying to cut back on green sideboard cards because of the threat of Wasteland. Currently not running either Xantid or Carpet, but I may throw in singletons. Anybody else been playing without either one? What are people running to replace them in the 'board?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I've been trying to cut back on green sideboard cards because of the threat of Wasteland. Currently not running either Xantid or Carpet, but I may throw in singletons. Anybody else been playing without either one? What are people running to replace them in the 'board?

Why are you cutting green cards that you don't want against decks with Wasteland because of Wasteland?

[Lemnear]

Why are you cutting green cards that you don't want against decks with Wasteland because of Wasteland?

In before: "Xantid Swarm is good against Delver/Tempo"

[BeardTron]

**Gets on Soapbox**

This may come off as preachy but I think it can still be a good post for some folks, especially "newer" players to Storm. I've been playing Storm for 9 months and I recently bought the deck on MTGO as well. I was playing a Daily last night and ran into a TES matchup in which I won 2-0. I was basically called a lucksack by the opponent and I wanted to riff on this and how instead of blaming others to take a step back and try to learn and improve our game.

Now, first of all, the Storm mirror can be a major coin flip. A lot of it boils down to who draws better/who is faster. Fortunately for us, TES dropping 10-12 goblins T2 doesn't matter as it gives us two more turns to go off. Now, in this particular matchup I think my opponent was unwise with their discard decisions (multiple times) and ultimately it cost him the match. For example, G2 he blind therapies and names Duress Turn 1, I have two Cabal Therapy in my hand--whoops (I still think naming Tutor or LED is better than naming discard in the dark). So of course he blames me for his miss. This type of stuff happens--we've been there. I think he made a couple other mistakes as well but I won't get into them. Fact of the matter is I've been there, too. The attitude of "Oh man, what a lucky piece of garbage..." Sometimes we just can't help it if an opponent rips Chalice of the top after we Probe them. It happens. It's Magic.

Too often we believe we are always making the correct play and if anything goes wrong--it must be that we are so unlucky or that our opponent is just lucky. When really, there are likely a couple moments, if not more, during a match where a better decision needed to be made and we paid the price for it.

I goldfish this deck a lot on my own, against various decks I've proxied so I can learn more about the deck and to understand certain lines of play. MTGO has certainly provided me even more of a solid testing ground--even in the tournie practice room. I am learning a ton and I am starting to notice my blunders with more clarity now--which is great, because that means there is a learning process going on.

I suppose the short winded point of this post would be for all of us, especially those of us still new to this deck, to take a deep breath and realize that this deck can be difficult to play and it takes a lot of practice and patience to start getting good results. Try not to blame your opponent for every loss--try and think about if a different choice or line would've improved your chances.

We're not immune to mistakes--it's a matter of limiting them. And that's in our control.

Keep stormin'!

[Patrunkenphat7]

Great points, BeardTron. Getting frustrated at your opponent and variance can blind yourself from becoming better with Storm. I know some people will disagree with this, but I think the outcome of the Storm "mirror" (ANT/TES) is MUCH more in your control than people give it credit for. Sure, there are a few variance subgames that can destroy you like turn 1 hand, Probe/Therapy 3 of your cards, etc, but overall your list and in-game decisions matter a ton. I am happy to play the Storm mirror online and in tournaments.

[phazonmutant]

Great points, BeardTron. Getting frustrated at your opponent and variance can blind yourself from becoming better with Storm. I know some people will disagree with this, but I think the outcome of the Storm "mirror" (ANT/TES) is MUCH more in your control than people give it credit for. Sure, there are a few variance subgames that can destroy you like turn 1 hand, Probe/Therapy 3 of your cards, etc, but overall your list and in-game decisions matter a ton. I am happy to play the Storm mirror online and in tournaments.

Totally agreed. I hear a lot of people on this board say they hate the storm mirror. I get that the first couple of turns are extremely draw dependent, but if neither person has an unbelievable draw, the discard and sequencing matters a ton. Also postboard when most decks have things like Surgical and Flusterstorm, there are ways to interact turn 0/1, so the player better able to evaluate how cautiously to play and when to seize the initiative generally wins. If it were just a coin-flip, then I wouldn't be 80%+ in the mirror over dozens of matches.

[Lemnear]

For example, G2 he blind therapies and names Duress Turn 1, I have two Cabal Therapy in my hand--whoops (I still think naming Tutor or LED is better than naming discard in the dark). So of course he blames me for his miss. This type of stuff happens--we've been there. I think he made a couple other mistakes as well but I won't get into them. Fact of the matter is I've been there, too.

The only question I have here is: Did he have the turn 2 kill or not? If not the play is broken stupid

[Jonathan Alexander]

Totally agreed. I hear a lot of people on this board say they hate the storm mirror. I get that the first couple of turns are extremely draw dependent, but if neither person has an unbelievable draw, the discard and sequencing matters a ton. Also postboard when most decks have things like Surgical and Flusterstorm, there are ways to interact turn 0/1, so the player better able to evaluate how cautiously to play and when to seize the initiative generally wins. If it were just a coin-flip, then I wouldn't be 80%+ in the mirror over dozens of matches.

I think the longer games are actually worse than the ones that end within the first 3-4 turns, because then it really just boils down to topdecks. In the early game, you can have interesting mindgames (postboard mostly) and small decisions that boil down to risk evaluation, which can be super interesting when it comes to discard spells. But when neither player really has any cards in hand but graveyards are full, the person drawing a hard business spell first simply wins. And if they don't, that's because the other player happened to draw something to stop them (Flusterstorm, basically).
Storm can win out of nowhere, that's why we play it. Thinking that's not true in the mirror is delusional. I have lost games in the mirror where my opponents didn't notice they had a kill in their hand, where they declined to protect their artifact mana from discard despite not having any other cards and countless other things. But I have also won games in the mirror where I misread my opponent's deck on the draw, screwed up cantrips, ignored sideboard cards like Surgical and just flat out played horribly overall. I honestly can't think of a matchup in all of Magic where decisions have as little impact on the outcome of a game as the Storm mirror. Of course, they matter when someone simply can't play the deck, but I believe as soon as you have basic lines down, you simply don't go below 45% unless you continuously play against people with silver bullets like Aegis of the Gods and the like.

Obviously, this doesn't mean you can't always improve your play, but it will have much more impact in matchups other than the Storm mirror.

To those claiming positive records in the mirror, do you have actual data? I'm genuinely interested in your approach to the mirror. Maybe I have a different picture of how it works out because roughly 80% of my games in the mirror are against Pascal, but I barely see games come down to unintuitive lines. (Disclaimer: That number is a very conservative estimate, it's probably more than 80%.)

[Ronald Deuce]

Why are you cutting green cards that you don't want against decks with Wasteland because of Wasteland?

That's not what I was saying. I meant that I don't want to run, e.g., Abrupt Decay against a deck with Wasteland, which it sounded like people were trying earlier in the thread, and I don't want to have a bunch of green slots in the sideboard because I feel like the only times I've found green to be useful (and at the same time to not stretch our mana base too far) was against Miracles (note, again, that I haven't faced certain decks in my metagame). Swarm and Carpet haven't done me much good. I was saying that their requiring green makes them even more iffy in a bunch of matchups, so I haven't been running them lately.

[EDIT: In other words, I'm running five green cards (Decays and a KGrip) and one Tropical in the 'board. I don't see the point in running Swarm or Carpet right now because they stretch our mana and I can't see the purpose of running either of them when the other green cards will do. I'd rather have sideboard space for other stuff right now, if for no other purpose than to test things.]

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Jonathan: I have a similar experience in the mirror as phazonmutant but don't have any actual stats that I can show you to back it up. Some general tips I have are:
-Board down to 14 land
-Whoever has better access to PiF will win the game after you pass the turn 1/2 explosive win phase; this means I will snap off a Grim for PiF as soon as I can if we are in a yucky midgame state
-Don't go autopilot on your discard
-Utilize cantrips in anticipation of protecting important cards and trick opponent into using their discard incorrectly
-Consider playing out LED to protect it if it's the most important card at that moment in the game
-And my most controversial piece of advice... 6 Tutors, 2 PiF, 1 Empty is much better than the 5 Tutors, 1 PiF, 1 Ad Nauseam, X Preordains plan that 99% of people seem play in the mirror online. I have come to this conclusion over a long period of time and don't expect to win many people over with it, but I feel very favored in Storm mirrors right now because of my list. Ad Nauseam is over-hyped vs most combo decks.

[Lemnear]

-And my most controversial piece of advice... 6 Tutors, 2 PiF, 1 Empty is much better than the 5 Tutors, 1 PiF, 1 Ad Nauseam, X Preordains plan that 99% of people seem play in the mirror online. I have come to this conclusion over a long period of time and don't expect to win many people over with it, but I feel very favored in Storm mirrors right now because of my list. Ad Nauseam is over-hyped vs most combo decks.

I don't see Dark Petition being a slick topdeck in a matchup where both players shred their opponents hand, while Preordains offer the option to not only find more discard early, but also to float business.

[BeardTron]

Variance, for example, means I had to drop from the event at 2-0 because my daughter started puking everywhere. Talk about getting top decked....lol

[Patrunkenphat7]

I don't see Dark Petition being a slick topdeck in a matchup where both players shred their opponents hand, while Preordains offer the option to not only find more discard early, but also to float business.

Which is one of many reasons I like Grim Tutors more, and like I said in my advice for the matchup, you can immediately fire it off to grab a PiF. My Grim Tutor vs the opponent's Preordain is probably the difference in the game with all else equal.

@BeardTron I can relate to the daughter-related variance drops haha.

[BeardTron]

The only question I have here is: Did he have the turn 2 kill or not? If not the play is broken stupid

Game 1 he was on play . He Turn 1 blind Therapy on Force of Will then T2 makes 12 goblins and I kill him two turns later.

In Game 2 he did not have the T2 "kill". He did have the pieces to make 10-12 goblins if I recall correctly but then I Therapied his LED, then Extracted them. Then took his Tutor next turn then killed him turn after that. Not sure why he didn't play his LED when he saw I had Therapy ...

If he would've named Tutor or LED in Game 2 it likely would've taken me longer giving him more draw steps.

[phazonmutant]

I think the longer games are actually worse than the ones that end within the first 3-4 turns, because then it really just boils down to topdecks. In the early game, you can have interesting mindgames (postboard mostly) and small decisions that boil down to risk evaluation, which can be super interesting when it comes to discard spells. But when neither player really has any cards in hand but graveyards are full, the person drawing a hard business spell first simply wins. And if they don't, that's because the other player happened to draw something to stop them (Flusterstorm, basically).
Storm can win out of nowhere, that's why we play it. Thinking that's not true in the mirror is delusional. I have lost games in the mirror where my opponents didn't notice they had a kill in their hand, where they declined to protect their artifact mana from discard despite not having any other cards and countless other things. But I have also won games in the mirror where I misread my opponent's deck on the draw, screwed up cantrips, ignored sideboard cards like Surgical and just flat out played horribly overall. I honestly can't think of a matchup in all of Magic where decisions have as little impact on the outcome of a game as the Storm mirror. Of course, they matter when someone simply can't play the deck, but I believe as soon as you have basic lines down, you simply don't go below 45% unless you continuously play against people with silver bullets like Aegis of the Gods and the like.

Obviously, this doesn't mean you can't always improve your play, but it will have much more impact in matchups other than the Storm mirror.

To those claiming positive records in the mirror, do you have actual data? I'm genuinely interested in your approach to the mirror. Maybe I have a different picture of how it works out because roughly 80% of my games in the mirror are against Pascal, but I barely see games come down to unintuitive lines. (Disclaimer: That number is a very conservative estimate, it's probably more than 80%.)

I also don't have hard stats, but I can remember losing 2 games out of the 15+ times I've played the mirror since mid-Treasure Cruise season. Human memory is faulty of course, could be a couple either way.

Definitely some of it is that I've played the deck and the mirror quite a bit so I know what to do, whereas most opponents miss lines, don't play artifact mana, etc. That will bias results. Another factor is that I've been on 2 Flusterstorm, 1-2 Surgical for nearly the entire time since I picked storm back up, which is more and better combo hate than most have. So probably my record wouldn't be as good against exclusively top-class opponents, but that's true of all mirrors. When the skill is equal, by definition the mirror is dominated by luck.

Besides the times where they should win, or are outgunned, there are times where smart discard use makes or breaks the game, on both sides. Like when you have close to a kill so you take the ritual instead of the tutor from an opponent who is also close to the kill. Or when you Ponder, leave a tutor on top to kill next turn, and they Duress taking Tutor. That's about judgment calls and reads.

[Jonathan Alexander]

@Jonathan: I have a similar experience in the mirror as phazonmutant but don't have any actual stats that I can show you to back it up. Some general tips I have are:
-Board down to 14 land
-Whoever has better access to PiF will win the game after you pass the turn 1/2 explosive win phase; this means I will snap off a Grim for PiF as soon as I can if we are in a yucky midgame state
-Don't go autopilot on your discard
-Utilize cantrips in anticipation of protecting important cards and trick opponent into using their discard incorrectly
-Consider playing out LED to protect it if it's the most important card at that moment in the game

To be honest, I consider all of these basics, although I have to say the land thing depends on your list. I definitely prefer 14 lands + 1 Mox to 15 lands, but not entirely sure on 14 vs. 15 without.


-And my most controversial piece of advice... 6 Tutors, 2 PiF, 1 Empty is much better than the 5 Tutors, 1 PiF, 1 Ad Nauseam, X Preordains plan that 99% of people seem play in the mirror online. I have come to this conclusion over a long period of time and don't expect to win many people over with it, but I feel very favored in Storm mirrors right now because of my list. Ad Nauseam is over-hyped vs most combo decks.

I don't see how more hard business being better than less hard business is controversial. When games come down to topdecks, the person with better odds to topdeck naturally has better odds to win.



Definitely some of it is that I've played the deck and the mirror quite a bit so I know what to do, whereas most opponents miss lines, don't play artifact mana, etc.

To be honest, if the mirror really came down to skill, players missing basic lines would never win. But they still do. Of course, if players mess up really simple things like miscounting Tutor -> Past in Flames loops, that will heavily reduce their win percentage. However, I see loads of people not understanding lines like Tutor, crack LED, discard Past in Flames, get Cabal Ritual, profit. (Side note: I watched an unnamed pro play the Storm mirror in Seattle; instead of going for this line, they Cabal Therapy'd their opponent for Duress, see Therapy, not play their LED, but topdeck to still win the game next turn.)


So probably my record wouldn't be as good against exclusively top-class opponents, but that's true of all mirrors. When the skill is equal, by definition the mirror is dominated by luck.

This is not actually true. It's a common misconception. If two players are equal in skill (in anything, really), games are not primarily decided by variance but by form. Because really, no two players consistently play on the same level. We make so many mistakes in everything we do, but in competition it comes down to the timing of these mistakes, which is, quite simply, form. If I play 10 games of any mirror match and split them 5-5, that doesn't mean that mirror is a coin flip. It can also mean my opponent and I are on similar skill levels and simply take turns in making mistakes.


Besides the times where they should win, or are outgunned, there are times where smart discard use makes or breaks the game, on both sides. Like when you have close to a kill so you take the ritual instead of the tutor from an opponent who is also close to the kill. Or when you Ponder, leave a tutor on top to kill next turn, and they Duress taking Tutor. That's about judgment calls and reads.

This happens very rarely. As I said, there are certainly edges you can gain, but they are neglible, that's my whole point.

[Ronald Deuce]

I've been on 2 Flusterstorm, 1-2 Surgical for nearly the entire time since I picked storm back up, which is more and better combo hate than most have.

Are there other matchups in which these cards have been particularly useful? What does the rest of your sideboard look like at the moment? One of the reasons I ask is related to my previous few posts.


If two players are equal in skill (in anything, really), games are not primarily decided by variance but by form. Because really, no two players consistently play on the same level. We make so many mistakes in everything we do, but in competition it comes down to the timing of these mistakes, which is, quite simply, form.

This is extremely important, and not just for playing this deck. It's worth pointing out that deciding to keep or ship a hand is a crucial situation to which this statement applies.

[Lemnear]

Game 1 he was on play . He Turn 1 blind Therapy on Force of Will then T2 makes 12 goblins and I kill him two turns later.

I don't know how this is possible unless you opponent misses to flashback the Therapy lol. You might want to clear this up for me. Thanks


In Game 2 he did not have the T2 "kill". He did have the pieces to make 10-12 goblins if I recall correctly but then I Therapied his LED, then Extracted them. Then took his Tutor next turn then killed him turn after that. Not sure why he didn't play his LED when he saw I had Therapy ...

If he would've named Tutor or LED in Game 2 it likely would've taken me longer giving him more draw steps.

Turn two goblins is a valid reason to fire off T1 discard vs. Discard in a vacuum, but if he saw that he missed with the Therapy and a backlash is coming, he has to drop his mana and go into the float-business-mode.

[BeardTron]

@Lemnear

He did flashback therapy when he made the Goblins in Game 1. He had to choose between LED, Tutor, Brainstorm and He took the Tutor but Brainstorm got me there. I drew really hot this game.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear

He did flashback therapy when he made the Goblins in Game 1. He had to choose between LED, Tutor, Brainstorm and He took the Tutor but Brainstorm got me there. I drew really hot this game.

The value of this pick waxes and wanes with your access to red mana. If you had no red source otherwise, the LED would have been more interresting to pick tbh as it would have costed you mana volume and color at the same time. Also interresting: Why did YOU not play the LED in your first turn to evade the value Therapy in case goblins come down or simply played the Brainstorm to hide your Tutor in case he throws goblins at you?

[Ronald Deuce]

The value of this pick waxes and wanes with your access to red mana. If you had no red source otherwise, the LED would have been more interresting to pick tbh as it would have costed you mana volume and color at the same time. Also interresting: Why did YOU not play the LED in your first turn to evade the value Therapy in case goblins come down or simply played the Brainstorm to hide your Tutor in case he throws goblins at you?

I would've hit the LED regardless, but I've only played Storm versus Storm once. I don't remember much except that I won the discard war early by Duressing a Tutor and leaving him without any business and, I think, with only one Ritual.

I guess I'm just not sure what the opponent was hoping to do there. What would be a reason to pick the tutor or the Brainstorm? It feels to me like locking someone out of fast mana or accelerants is a pretty cash play, and I've found that when opponents strip out an LED or a CabRit early in the game it can often knock me out at least as effectively as taking a tutor.

[Lemnear]

I would've hit the LED regardless, but I've only played Storm versus Storm once. I don't remember much except that I won the discard war early by Duressing a Tutor and leaving him without any business and, I think, with only one Ritual.

I guess I'm just not sure what the opponent was hoping to do there. What would be a reason to pick the tutor or the Brainstorm? It feels to me like locking someone out of fast mana or accelerants is a pretty cash play, and I've found that when opponents strip out an LED or a CabRit early in the game it can often knock me out at least as effectively as taking a tutor.

Depends on the rest of the hand. If there are other red sources available or already two Rituals, picking the LED makes no sense obviously. Its not enough data for me to discuss the matter in detail.

[BeardTron]

The value of this pick waxes and wanes with your access to red mana. If you had no red source otherwise, the LED would have been more interresting to pick tbh as it would have costed you mana volume and color at the same time. Also interresting: Why did YOU not play the LED in your first turn to evade the value Therapy in case goblins come down or simply played the Brainstorm to hide your Tutor in case he throws goblins at you?

Ya it was likely a mistake on my part not to play out LED my first turn. My first turn I spent w a Ponder and tucked away business to make his 2nd therapy not really matter. Then brainstorm took it home.

[JamieW89]

I can't stand the mirror match at all, either someone wins quickly or someone wins the lategame topdeck war. Sure, there are interesting spots on turn-1 & 2, especially involving discard, but it's nothing like playing against blue decks.

Having 70%-80% in the mirror match seems like positive variance to me, unless you're playing against people who don't know how to count (obviously having 70% with ANT in any matchup requires a decent edge in skill, but in the mirror it's not so easy to find those edges).

Playing/Mulliganning worse in matchups I don't find interesting (Most fast matchups, especially non-blue) is definately a leak in my game though.

Having said that, I did find the storm mirror very interesting and unique when people were still playing Chant effects.


This is not actually true. It's a common misconception. If two players are equal in skill (in anything, really), games are not primarily decided by variance but by form. Because really, no two players consistently play on the same level. We make so many mistakes in everything we do, but in competition it comes down to the timing of these mistakes, which is, quite simply, form. If I play 10 games of any mirror match and split them 5-5, that doesn't mean that mirror is a coin flip. It can also mean my opponent and I are on similar skill levels and simply take turns in making mistakes
Nice point.

[thefringthing]

TES vs ANT was my favourite Legacy matchup to play back when TES played Silence. It was pretty unwinnable for ANT, but never boring.

[Sloshthedark]

Unlike most of the people I enjoy to play the mirror match, used to feel favoured because of playing 2Pif instead of 1 and having actual SB instead of none, still feel a bit favoured because of experience, not sure about the build, the experience is different if it's an actual tournament or you do not know the opponent, I can see it becoming boring if you play the same guys over and over (like every other deck) or you want to test like 20 games against a deck... btw. I'm 4-4 for the last year


TES vs ANT was my favourite Legacy matchup to play back when TES played Silence. It was pretty unwinnable for ANT, but never boring.

I had the exact opposite experience, TES got a lot better since - both in disruption and BS+fetchland effectivity to be a favourite now but It wasn't my impression back then, Silence was usualy very pasive card... I've never lost to TES with ANT but lost my fair share with TES to ANT

but it was definitely interesting, also had a 7 chant DDFT in the LGS back in the day, good old times...

[Lemnear]

I had the exact opposite experience, TES got a lot better since - both in disruption and BS+fetchland effectivity to be a favourite now but It wasn't my impression back then, Silence was usualy very pasive card... I've never lost to TES with ANT but lost my fair share with TES to ANT

but it was definitely interesting, also had a 7 chant DDFT in the LGS back in the day, good old times...

I agree. Silence was the absolute noob-check in the old Storm mirror and pretty much the same Flusterstorm does for ANT these days, if people decide to run it (or Mindbreak Trap for non-blue decks): It loses 95% of effectiveness once your opponent is aware of it and it got totally pointless after the printing of Gitaxian Probe to check for such cards without spending cards or mana (unlike discard). Only total idiots comboed right in the face of a Silence versus TES and I only remember that happend twice since I picked up TES, so i sure don't buy Silence as a boon in the storm mirror.

Silence was a card to battle conditional counters like Stifle, Spell Snare, Envelop, etc. and bait hardcounters like FoW, but got pointless during 2013 with the metashift from pure reactive solutions for storm to Dual hate in Form of either discard+counter or hatebear+counter, which pure discard can handle better than the reactive Silence/Chant as cards like Therapy can hit Hymn, FoW and Thalia without (timing) restrictions. The shift from Silence/Chant to Duress/Therapy and the cut of white mana obviously improved the manabase, the effectiveness of cantrips and certain playlines/interactions like the 4x Therapy + EtW one

#StormHistory #TES #Silence

[Jonathan Alexander]

I agree. Silence was the absolute noob-check in the old Storm mirror and pretty much the same Flusterstorm does for ANT these days, if people decide to run it (or Mindbreak Trap for non-blue decks): It loses 95% of effectiveness once your opponent is aware of it and it got totally pointless after the printing of Gitaxian Probe to check for such cards without spending cards or mana (unlike discard).


This statement might be true, but it is incomplete. Silence effects and Flusterstorm are very good when Top is involved.

[Ronald Deuce]

So what's the thinking right now about how our deck does against TES? One of the reasons I ask is that I've been wanting to try both variants (just need two more Burning Wishes) and I'm wondering what the prevailing wisdom is right now.

Preliminarily it looks like our using Tendrils as the primary win can get us where we need to be as quickly as TES can (we don't need attack steps to Tendrils), assuming of course that TES doesn't play fast Therapy into Empty or nut-draw into AdN/sideboard Tendrils. Also it looks like we get better odds of getting there the longer the game goes on without TES's comboing. We've also got a virtually identical discard package, so I'm not sure we'd be at an advantage if all else were equal. What's everyone else think at this point?

[nevilshute]

So what's the thinking right now about how our deck does against TES? One of the reasons I ask is that I've been wanting to try both variants (just need two more Burning Wishes) and I'm wondering what the prevailing wisdom is right now.

Preliminarily it looks like our using Tendrils as the primary win can get us where we need to be as quickly as TES can (we don't need attack steps to Tendrils), assuming of course that TES doesn't play fast Therapy into Empty or nut-draw into AdN/sideboard Tendrils. Also it looks like we get better odds of getting there the longer the game goes on without TES's comboing. We've also got a virtually identical discard package, so I'm not sure we'd be at an advantage if all else were equal. What's everyone else think at this point?

So, first of all I wouldn't use the strength of each deck in the storm mirror to decide anything. If anything it should be how well each deck does vs the rest of the field.

I *think* the generel consensus is, that TES is best vs non-blue decks, decks with hatebears and hateful permanents and ANT is stronger vs blue, counter-decks. This is an oversimplification to be sure but something to use as a starting point. TES is faster and is the better Ad Nauseam deck. ANT is better at using Past in Flames and with that comes more inherent resiliency to counter spells that. Each deck has it's zealots that think one is clearly better than the other. I'm guessing Bryant Cook will tell you that TES is just the better deck.

[Lemnear]

This statement might be true, but it is incomplete. Silence effects and Flusterstorm are very good when Top is involved.

Talking about incomplete: It also counts for Xantid Swarm. Flusterstorm still voids the use of LED and SDT can be handled with Needle or eot Decays as well. Many paths lead to rome.


So what's the thinking right now about how our deck does against TES? One of the reasons I ask is that I've been wanting to try both variants (just need two more Burning Wishes) and I'm wondering what the prevailing wisdom is right now.

Preliminarily it looks like our using Tendrils as the primary win can get us where we need to be as quickly as TES can (we don't need attack steps to Tendrils), assuming of course that TES doesn't play fast Therapy into Empty or nut-draw into AdN/sideboard Tendrils. Also it looks like we get better odds of getting there the longer the game goes on without TES's comboing. We've also got a virtually identical discard package, so I'm not sure we'd be at an advantage if all else were equal. What's everyone else think at this point?

ANT vs. TES is pretty miserable in both ways, decided by who can delay their opponents critical turn long enough with discard or who has the nut draw. In regards to the discard topic, the increased number of cantrips sure helps finding Duress/Therapy. ANT is also better suited for topdeck wars due to stronger Rituals, PIF being discard-proof and an increased redundancy of quality cards (via more cantrips) instead of limited substitutes like Burning Wish.

If you are on the draw and/or have no T1 discard vs TES, it however looks pretty grim due to speed reasons (best case scenario for you is "just" needing to race Tokens)

[Jonathan Alexander]

Talking about incomplete: It also counts for Xantid Swarm. Flusterstorm still voids the use of LED and SDT can be handled with Needle or eot Decays as well. Many paths lead to rome.

I was referring to the Storm mirror only, which I thought you were referring to as well. I hope we all agree that Xantid Swarm, Needle and Decay are too narrow for the Storm mirror.

[Lemnear]

I was referring to the Storm mirror only, which I thought you were referring to as well. I hope we all agree that Xantid Swarm, Needle and Decay are too narrow for the Storm mirror.

When you were talking about SDT, I really did not get the idea that you talk about the storm Mirror with an average of 0-1 SDT in ANT lists

[nevilshute]

I had the most enjoyable match against miracles that I've had for a looooong time. I'm back to a list resembling my GP Lille list with 2x past in flames, 2x tendrils, 1x empty in the main. I played a bit fast and loose but it was so much fun... the feel-good storm vs miracles movie of the year! I even found room for an OGW card in the sideboard. Enjoy:

https://youtu.be/XdnGtzbS5U8

Another video made with the same list playing against a bit of a weird UR Delver list:

https://youtu.be/CDC_VOb-cZ4

[Ronald Deuce]

So, first of all I wouldn't use the strength of each deck in the storm mirror to decide anything. If anything it should be how well each deck does vs the rest of the field.

I *think* the generel consensus is, that TES is best vs non-blue decks, decks with hatebears and hateful permanents and ANT is stronger vs blue, counter-decks. This is an oversimplification to be sure but something to use as a starting point. TES is faster and is the better Ad Nauseam deck. ANT is better at using Past in Flames and with that comes more inherent resiliency to counter spells that. Each deck has it's zealots that think one is clearly better than the other. I'm guessing Bryant Cook will tell you that TES is just the better deck.

Oh, don't get me wrong; I know that matchups against other decks are at least as important. I was just wondering about the specific matchup because I tend to read (for what it's worth) that people say TES is faster. I've only played a Storm versus Storm game once so it's a matchup with which I don't have much of any experience (I think the opponent was on TES but he may have been playing a hybrid). Again, I think I just lucked into quick hand disruption that kept him off the mana he needed, so I was curious as to whether it's usually a troublesome matchup, or whether their (supposedly slightly better) speed doesn't tend to avail them of much.

Also, awesome vid versus Miracles! I like that sideboard tech, even if it looked like you got a bit lucky with the opponent's not stopping your Ritual. Keep us posted if you discover anything further!

[nevilshute]

Oh, don't get me wrong; I know that matchups against other decks are at least as important. I was just wondering about the specific matchup because I tend to read (for what it's worth) that people say TES is faster. I've only played a Storm versus Storm game once so it's a matchup with which I don't have much of any experience (I think the opponent was on TES but he may have been playing a hybrid). Again, I think I just lucked into quick hand disruption that kept him off the mana he needed, so I was curious as to whether it's usually a troublesome matchup, or whether their (supposedly slightly better) speed doesn't tend to avail them of much.

Also, awesome vid versus Miracles! I like that sideboard tech, even if it looked like you got a bit lucky with the opponent's not stopping your Ritual. Keep us posted if you discover anything further!

Sorry for nitpicking. You say "at least as important" but I would contend that it is way more important how well your combo deck does against the other top decks of the format and not in the corner-case mirrors. I'm way more comfortable playing ANT than TES and I happen to think ANT is better situated - at least the way I play it -fight stuff like delver and miracles. As such I couldn't really care less if I was 20/80 vs TES, a deck which I am quite unlikely to face as it is a deck that isn't played very much in the main stream these days (correct me if I'm wrong, this is my impression without checking hard data). So by no means should you, in my opinion, be making decisions on which deck to play based on which one of TES or ANT has the upper hand in the TES vs ANT matchup.

Also, regarding the Sphinx play I wouldn't say I was lucky that they didn't counter the ritual or the petal as it would be pretty unexpected (I had a full grip and four lands, why would you waste a hard counter on the first Dark Ritual - that kind of thing). I think I did ride my luck in that matchup, first by them making a mess of their counterbalance/top lock in game one and brainstorm hitting LED and then, for game two, in drawing as many decays/grips as they drew CBs and then, of course, by actually top-decking the sphinx right when the game was in the balance :smile:

Having had a day to think some more about the Sphinx I think Terminus could be a big issue going forward. I face plenty of miracles players as it is that leave in some number of Terminus post board, especially if I've shown them Empty in game one. Now, them having access to Terminus isn't the same as saying the Sphinx shouldn't be played but if Sphinx ever becomes a thing and miracles players have it on their radar then it seems rather likely that they will value keeping in (more) Terminus post board and playing towards being able to access one.... that might not necessarily be a bad thing as that will decrease their overall effenciency (even if only slightly), but it is a pretty big blow out if they ever get to terminus the sphinx... Sphinx is almost guaranteed to be at least 2 cards for us (a ritual and the sphinx itself) and I don't know if we can recover that kind of 2-for-1 / time walk.

Continuing to run Sphinx might even call for us to want to start running pithing needle in the board. It means we have to eschew our own tops but 2 needle against miracles is a fine place to be. Needle on top means they will have a much, much harder time setting up a terminus and will just in general screw up their strategy against us something fierce as top is a beast for them. At that point the sphinx might end up as win-more and if we are using needle already it might be better paired with a city of solitude which is significantly easier to land than the sphinx and offers a similar kind of effect, that's not counting sphinx bossyness as a 5/5 flyer though. Needle also has auxiliary uses against deathrites etc. Hmm, something to think about it.

Anyway, thanks for watching and commenting!

[Ronald Deuce]

Sorry for nitpicking. You say "at least as important" but I would contend that it is way more important how well your combo deck does against the other top decks of the format and not in the corner-case mirrors. I'm way more comfortable playing ANT than TES and I happen to think ANT is better situated - at least the way I play it -fight stuff like delver and miracles. As such I couldn't really care less if I was 20/80 vs TES, a deck which I am quite unlikely to face as it is a deck that isn't played very much in the main stream these days (correct me if I'm wrong, this is my impression without checking hard data). So by no means should you, in my opinion, be making decisions on which deck to play based on which one of TES or ANT has the upper hand in the TES vs ANT matchup.

You're right; I think we started talking past each other. Was just wondering about the matchup because I've played against a lot of BUGs and Miracles lately and I was curious about how to beat a (maybe slightly faster) combo deck.

[phazonmutant]

Are there other matchups in which these cards have been particularly useful? What does the rest of your sideboard look like at the moment? One of the reasons I ask is related to my previous few posts.

I mix it up regularly, but last time I played storm I was trying sideboards like the ones from MKM.

2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Dread of Night
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Flusterstorm is absolutely the best card you can have against Show and Tell decks, and I'm including Xantid Swarm here. Especially potent is Fluster + Surgical. Flusterstorm is obviously good against almost all combo decks. It's also fine to bring in against Hymn decks.

Surgical is good against graveyard decks and combo decks. I don't bring it in against Miracles. Because of this I think it's worse than Flusterstorm, but our worst combo matchups are fast and graveyard-based - Reanimator and Oops. With the combination of both, Storm can legitimately position itself to be the combo-control deck against Reanimator who is typically forced into the aggressor. Post-board the reanimator player usually doesn't realize that and their board plan matches up poorly. That and a decent helping of luck is how I've beaten so many Reanimator players.

[Maikhell]

Still talking about the Miracles matchup, I was wondering about some number of Bitterblossom in the sideboard. I mean, it's a low investment card that, if resolved, put pressure on they to lay down a fast clock, keep forcing terminus, and, unlike Young Pyromancer and Mentor, is very hard to be responded in a clean way (they usually don't keep Council's ou Wear/Tear postboard). Oh, also, it can't be hit by Flusterstorm.

So, what do you guys think about this possibility?

[Quasim0ff]

Still talking about the Miracles matchup, I was wondering about some number of Bitterblossom in the sideboard. I mean, it's a low investment card that, if resolved, put pressure on they to lay down a fast clock, keep forcing terminus, and, unlike Young Pyromancer and Mentor, is very hard to be responded in a clean way (they usually don't keep Council's ou Wear/Tear postboard). Oh, also, it can't be hit by Flusterstorm.

So, what do you guys think about this possibility?

It's an incredible slow kill condition, plus dies to Izzet Staticaster as well as the Spell Snare, which is becoming more and more prevalent in the miracles lists.

If you want a creature card, I'd much rather have mentor (power level) or Pyromannen (Speed), as both cards kill much, much faster than bitterblossom.

Miracles will usually board in some number Wear//Tear, if not only because of counterbalance curve.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I have actually tried Bitterblossom and I didn't like it. It's too slow even if you land it turn two and does next to nothing if you only resolve turn five or so. Not that it's better or worse than any of the other creature cards, I really don't like any of them.

[warfordium]

after an ill-advised fling with RUG lands I'm back on combo. and lemme tell you, the Mentor/Bob plan in TinFins is bonkers.

I guess what I'm saying is: +1 to Monastery Mentor if you really want to catch them off-guard.

[thefringthing]

Enjoy:
https://youtu.be/XdnGtzbS5U8That was quite the game one.

[nevilshute]

after an ill-advised fling with RUG lands I'm back on combo. and lemme tell you, the Mentor/Bob plan in TinFins is bonkers.

I guess what I'm saying is: +1 to Monastery Mentor if you really want to catch them off-guard.

I feel that the "man-plan" is very high variance. And mind you I'm currently testing Sphinx of the Final Word vs Miracles so I'm not against trying out weird stuff. I've run Pyromancers and Bobs before. Haven't tried mentor yet but off the bat I'm not a fan.

I primarily consider each of these creatures against Miracles. That they might have uses in other matchups is a clear secondary thing for me. When your opponent is unprepared then each of these creatures can wreck them. However, every Miracles player knows (or should know) that creatures have had a place in storm sideboards since forever, be it Xantid Swarm, Dark Confidant or one of the grow creatures. They know that these types of creatures can wreck them so they leave in swords to plowshares and potentially also bring in other types of answers like Engineered Explosives, Izzit Staticaster or the likes.

If you bring in a creature and it immediately trades with a plowshares then that's pretty bad for you. You've traded a high impact card from your hand with a nonsense card from their hand that has no usefulness against your actual combo.

Of course there will be feel-good stories with grow creatures but I feel like they are too high variance for my taste.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I feel that the "man-plan" is very high variance. And mind you I'm currently testing Sphinx of the Final Word vs Miracles so I'm not against trying out weird stuff. I've run Pyromancers and Bobs before. Haven't tried mentor yet but off the bat I'm not a fan.

What Martin said.

[Ronald Deuce]

Don't mean to lay into people, but I feel like most of the man-plan suggestions have one big problem: they tend to be aiming to do what Empty the Warrens does at a fraction of the speed. For the sake of argument, why wouldn't one run four copies of Empty instead of any number of Mentors (Gaddock notwithstanding)?

Maikhell may be onto something with Bitterblossom simply because it's an enchantment and dodges Terminus. I'm not sold on the card's viability, though, because there's no way to increase the rate of token generation, and life-loss is a problem if we can't keep the pressure on. It does give me a (probably terrible) idea, though: anybody interested in trolling maximally by testing a copy of Assemble the Legion?:cool:

I'm not too enthusiastic about running creatures (incl. Xantid Swarm) or turn-based token generation in our sideboard at all. How much can we really expect to hedge out decks that board out their removal? If they're running blue, we're not going to have an easy time anyway (counterspells), and if they aren't, none of the creatures discussed so far will be able to keep pace with DRS, Tarmo, Batterskull, Banana King, etc. I can see some merit to running a copy or two of Xantid, but I don't know that it's worth it. It's a counter-magnet for cmc1, so that's something, but again, that's all I've ever seen it do.

Warfordium, thanks for the info regarding Mentor and Bob. I feel like those are much more viable in the other deck than they are here, though. Someone tried a quad of Mentors in the sideboard a few months ago and it didn't go all that well. Can you elaborate on the thinking/strategy behind Mentor and Bob in the Tin-Fins deck? I've never played Tin-Fins, but I'm guessing that G-brand's card advantage probably plays a pretty big part in making Mentor tick. Keep us posted!

[Jonathan Alexander]

Don't mean to lay into people, but I feel like most of the man-plan suggestions have one big problem: they tend to be aiming to do what Empty the Warrens does at a fraction of the speed. For the sake of argument, why wouldn't one run four copies of Empty instead of any number of Mentors (Gaddock notwithstanding)?

Maikhell may be onto something with Bitterblossom simply because it's an enchantment and dodges Terminus. I'm not sold on the card's viability, though, because there's no way to increase the rate of token generation, and life-loss is a problem if we can't keep the pressure on. It does give me a (probably terrible) idea, though: anybody interested in trolling maximally by testing a copy of Assemble the Legion?:cool:

I'm not too enthusiastic about running creatures (incl. Xantid Swarm) or turn-based token generation in our sideboard at all. How much can we really expect to hedge out decks that board out their removal? If they're running blue, we're not going to have an easy time anyway (counterspells), and if they aren't, none of the creatures discussed so far will be able to keep pace with DRS, Tarmo, Batterskull, Banana King, etc. I can see some merit to running a copy or two of Xantid, but I don't know that it's worth it. It's a counter-magnet for cmc1, so that's something, but again, that's all I've ever seen it do.

Warfordium, thanks for the info regarding Mentor and Bob. I feel like those are much more viable in the other deck than they are here, though. Someone tried a quad of Mentors in the sideboard a few months ago and it didn't go all that well. Can you elaborate on the thinking/strategy behind Mentor and Bob in the Tin-Fins deck? I've never played Tin-Fins, but I'm guessing that G-brand's card advantage probably plays a pretty big part in making Mentor tick. Keep us posted!

You have to differentiate between creatures that are there to beat (Pyromancer; Bitterblossom) and creatures that synergise with our general game plan (Xantid Swarm; Dark Confidant). With regards to the first group, I completely agree with your notion about Empty being faster and just generally leaner.
Still, even the spell creatures (let's call 'em that) are susceptible to removal, as you pointed out, and thus shouldn't be brought in the hopes your opponents board out all their removal. However, I really don't like any of the creatures against fair decks. In combo mirrors these creatures are amazing though, because blue combo decks traditionally don't have very many ways to interact with these creatures, and if my Sneak & Show opponent boards in Pyroclasm to deal with my Xantid Swarms, that's perfectly fine with me - it's not a very efficient way to kill a one mana creature and if they draw it while I don't have Swarm, that's fine with me. They might Brainstorm it away and open themselves up for a future Swarm or they keep a dead card in their hand.
It's also worth noting that, ironically, most combo decks have worse filtering than Miracles, so Miracles gets away with both playing less removal spells and drawing more than other decks.

Also, I don't think Assemble will ever make the cut. It was amazing in Standard, but I haven't even managed to make it work in Modern. The effect is insanely good though.

[jayce]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

[Lemnear]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

I'd say the only reason to pick up 2 Islands is, if you play a significant amount of preordains in your list, so turn two double cantripping is a regular move. The matter of 14 vs 15 is one of the metagame structure (manadenial) and your SB configuration (colors aka maybe Bayou and Tropical, as well as manacost in case of K.Grips for example)

[Jonathan Alexander]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

I actually consider the second Swamp far more impactful than the second Island, but to the best of my knowledge, only Pascal, Kai and myself have tried that. It makes all Wasteland matchups considerably better, especially Delver matchups. Going up to 16 lands is also quite good in some matchups. I like it against Miracles, but it's most useful against decks that barely see play anymore, like Canadian and UWR Delver.
Overall, it really depends on what you expect to go up against, as Lemnear said. I wouldn't want to start 16 lands currently. 15 lands is a very solid middle ground and 14 lands is perfectly fine when you're going for short games anyway. There's also Chrome Mox, which barely sees play, but can be a land with upside.

[Sloshthedark]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

14 is playable, originally my 61st card was a land to end the dilemma, I prefer to stay on 15 and to SB up/down into 14/16,

I fear 2 islands like a lepper, it's a generally worse setup imo

[Lemnear]

14 is playable, originally my 61st card was a land to end the dilemma, I prefer to stay on 15 and to SB up/down into 14/16,

I fear 2 islands like a lepper, it's a generally worse setup imo

It solves some issues with cantrip heavy hands, like if one opts to go the direction of the old 16 cantrip list

[Ronald Deuce]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

I used to be really torn about whether to run a fifteenth land in the maindeck, but lately I haven't been having mana problems on fourteen. I'm running two Islands maindeck and a Badlands instead of a Volcanic Island for now (until I can get the Volc) and I haven't had mana problems in a while. It's been a little while since the last Legacy tournament around here, so I can't say definitively whether mana screw's still an issue, but I'm probably going to stick with fourteen for the time being.

The reason I was on the fence for so long was that, regardless of the number of times I shuffled, I just kept hitting land after land when I was on fifteen. I'm getting my hands on Rain of Filth later today, so I may try it out again. I'm going to try 1x Preordain, 1x Rain first because I don't like cantripping into two cantrips and a land. I may switch out my third Duress as well.

[Sloshthedark]

like if one opts to go the direction of the old 16 cantrip list


it's a generally worse setup imo


I used to be really torn about whether to run a fifteenth land in the maindeck, but lately I haven't been having mana problems on fourteen. I'm running two Islands maindeck and a Badlands instead of a Volcanic Island for now (until I can get the Volc) and I haven't had mana problems in a while. It's been a little while since the last Legacy tournament around here, so I can't say definitively whether mana screw's still an issue, but I'm probably going to stick with fourteen for the time being.

The reason I was on the fence for so long was that, regardless of the number of times I shuffled, I just kept hitting land after land when I was on fifteen. I'm getting my hands on Rain of Filth later today, so I may try it out again. I'm going to try 1x Preordain, 1x Rain first because I don't like cantripping into two cantrips and a land. I may switch out my third Duress as well.

the 1 land difference is so small you'd hardly notice at first sight (only color availability if relevant), you can mark the sleeve of the substitute card to evaluate the difference

[Patrunkenphat7]

The discussion of 2 Island vs 2 Swamp vs only 1 of each is interesting. I don't think 2 Swamp is ever that useful because in the turn you want to use a 2nd black off your lands you are usually going off and can just fetch out the Sea. 2nd Island has been very useful for me against Delver decks where I want to hoard lands. I often find myself going off with 2 Island, 1 Swamp, and fetch in play the turn I go off.

[CabalTherapy]

The discussion of 2 Island vs 2 Swamp vs only 1 of each is interesting. I don't think 2 Swamp is ever that useful because in the turn you want to use a 2nd black off your lands you are usually going off and can just fetch out the Sea. 2nd Island has been very useful for me against Delver decks where I want to hoard lands. I often find myself going off with 2 Island, 1 Swamp, and fetch in play the turn I go off.

The issue here is that it's again related to the idea of Grinding Station's playstyle. A second swamp helps to make wastelandproof landdrops to prepare a late comboturn, where more black sources to start casting rituals against potential counterspells are quite useful. I haven't tried it myself because my SBs contain wide ranges of green cards which demand Bayou alongside Tropical. (+ I don't play Grinding Station)

[Jonathan Alexander]

The issue I have with the second Island is that it's quite often dead in the combo turn. The second Swamp at least casts relevant spells. But honestly, I think the second Swamp is a relic of the past; it's best against Stifle + Wasteland decks, where sometimes they tap out, but you still can't afford to get Wasted. As CabalTherapy said, it's best when you want to grind. I'd also like pointing out that I have never played the second Swamp without running 16 lands in my 75.

[Lemnear]

The issue I have with the second Island is that it's quite often dead in the combo turn. The second Swamp at least casts relevant spells.

Depends on if you opt to cast cantrips in your combo turn (natural spellchain) or if you consider starting your manaacceleration with Cabal Ritual rather or in place of Dark Ritual

[Ronald Deuce]

Depends on if you opt to cast cantrips in your combo turn (natural spellchain) or if you consider starting your manaacceleration with Cabal Ritual rather or in place of Dark Ritual

One thing I've started to do is to try to keep a blue source open (if I've got the time to develop my lands) during my combo turn just in case I need another way to find cards or increase my storm count. This seems especially important if we're relying on Ad Nauseam because a Brainstorm can help dump lands if we need to rely on Infernal to win. It doesn't hurt to play like you've got Flusterstorm backup, too, I think (even if one isn't running Flusterstorm!).

I have a couple of unrelated questions/thoughts:

I'm testing with Rain of Filth and I really like it. It seems pretty vulnerable to a few things, though. For people who are running it, when do you board it out? Against heavy land-hate would seem most logical, but when else is it a real dud? If people are boarding it in, what are they replacing? I'm torn between replacing a Preordain, a Duress, and a sixth tutor (n.b.: I'm currently running 2x Preordain, 2x Duress, 2x Petition, 1x Rain, AdN, PiF, Tendrils, 0x Empty).

Now I'm going waaay out on a limb with this, so if it's been tested and rejected, just say the word: has anybody tried Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver against Miracles? Just realized that it costs three (a tough slot for Countertop) and can probably play havoc with Sensei's Top. Also, it doesn't require green mana, which has been a big sticking point for me regarding a number of sideboard cards. I'm still a huge fan of Abrupt Decay and KGrip is also really heavy-duty, but I just got to thinking that if we don't have to worry about a quick clock, it might be really useful to eat some cards our opponent cantripped to stack. I also realized that getting a lucky hit can give us a pretty beastly creature versus Reanimans, if a little more slowly than we'd like. And if nothing else, it could pick off nasty singletons like Iona or Sire of Insanity.

Any and all discussion and feedback is welcome!

[thefringthing]

I board out Rain of Filth against basically everything, along with the other flex slots. Something's got to come out.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I have never boarded out Rain and I'm fairly sure I haven't boarded out a Dark Ritual either.

Regarding Ashiok, it's a sweet idea, but I doubt it's more impactful than City of Solitude. Also gets countered by more things. City might actually be decent now, with Spell Pierce being almost non-existent in the metagame.

[jayce]

How will this new card affect us? Should we be somewhat worried?

http://i.imgur.com/mHXqQpp.jpg

[Miscanthus]

How will this new card affect us? Should we be somewhat worried?

http://i.imgur.com/mHXqQpp.jpg

At a glance I'm not too worried. The delirium requires four different card types in the caster's own graveyard, rather than checking all graveyards as a Tarmogoyf does. For a deck wanting an Envelop effect (Delver based decks mostly, from what I've seen) this seems like it would be difficult to achieve in time against us. For such a deck, getting three card types in one's own graveyard is doable (land, instant, sorcery) but getting a creature/artifact/enchantment/planeswalker by by turn 3-4 or so is a tall order...

[Lemnear]

At a glance I'm not too worried. The delirium requires four different card types in the caster's own graveyard, rather than checking all graveyards as a Tarmogoyf does. For a deck wanting an Envelop effect (Delver based decks mostly, from what I've seen) this seems like it would be difficult to achieve in time against us. For such a deck, getting three card types in one's own graveyard is doable (land, instant, sorcery) but getting a creature/artifact/enchantment/planeswalker by by turn 3-4 or so is a tall order...

Depends on what will see this keyword other than this card. Street Wraith is still a thing

[taconaut]

Hey all,

I made the top eight of a small (19 people) Philadelphia Legacy series event last Saturday, and wanted to write it up and ask some questions.

Here's my list for reference:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Dread of Night
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens

Pretty standard, as far as I can tell, though the sideboard definitely needs work (suggestions welcome).

First round: Bye
Goldfish are a notoriously easy matchup for Storm.
1-0; 2-0 in games (sorta)

Second Round: Eric on Burn
I had actually spent a good deal of time chatting with Eric up near the counter before last round ended while on a bye; I didn't realize until sitting down and him opening on "Chain Lightning your face, go" why that might be. First game he has Eidolon relatively quickly, and I cantrip into mostly other cantrips, and have no way to remove it, so we move to game two. The second game is much the same: a discard spell early on finds a Price of Progress, but an unanswered Eidolon off the top again seals the deal quickly, as I don't find any answers.

-1 Therapy, -1 Preordain, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Abrupt Decay; I may have fit one more Chain in, but I don't remember what I took out. I do recall noticing after that I had failed to board out SDT, which I probably should've.
1-1; 2-2 in games

Third Round: Gonzalo on UG Post (nicely foiled)
I actually knew what Gonzalo was on going into the match, as he had been the last to finish the prior round. The first game I think I won with a Past in Flames loop after taking a show and tell with discard; he didn't draw much interaction that game. Second game, I was unable to find a chain of vapor to bounce his leyline of sanctity. He then had enough time to get the new kozilek out, and after that it was lights out (discarding land to counter LED isn't quite the same as revealing a fetch on top to counterbalance it, but they both feel pretty bad). Third game, I believe he mulled to four, kept, and I decided to play the odds and went for a turn one Ad Nauseam, figuring if he had the Force, I'd be out several cards, but he would be on whatever two were left over, and I'd have time to set up for a Past in Flames loop later. Turns out, he didn't have any free interaction, and I got there with the Ad Naus.

-3 Therapy, +2 CoV, +1 Abrupt Decay. I may have added another CoV for the third game after whiffing in game two.
2-1; 4-3 in games

Fourth Round: Jeremy on Miracles
I also sat next to Jeremy during round 2, so I knew he was on Miracles and he knew I was on Storm. As a consequence, he made a nice play to start (and perhaps I misstepped) by opening with land, go, then spell piercing my duress. In hindsight, it might've been wrong to go for the discard, but as I recall, I didn't have any other turn one plays than "land, go" and really didn't want to see the counterbalance come down on turn two. Turns out he had it, as well as a few more lands, a Jace, and a Force, and took the rest of the game handily. I played it out for the most part to get a little better sense of his deck, as he was playing pretty briskly, but based on how it went, I think I probably should've conceded to give myself a little more time on the clock. Game two after board was much different, and centered around two Carpet of Flowers that produced a crazy amount of mana by the end of the game. Unfortunately, during one attempt to combo, he flipped a Venser to counter my Past in Flames, and I had to wait to try again next turn. I made another attempt in the following turn after he had drawn the Venser, and knowing he didn't have interaction outside of counter-top and the Venser, I misplayed by infernal tutoring for abrupt decay to deal with counterbalance, and then cast the PiF in my grave to have it Vensered, forgetting that a flashback spell that gets remanded is still exiled. If I had gotten the other Past in Flames instead of the abrupt decay, I likely could've played around the venser and got him, but I incorrectly over-estimated the possibility that he could have another four-mana spell on top of his library and counter my past in flames multiple times. I found out after the game that he had boarded all of his Jaces out.

How do people feel about Carpet of Flowers in this matchup? I felt as though it did some work for me in this game and could've won it if I had played better, but I feel like I bring in a ton of green cards/board cards against miracles, and yet don't feel much more comfortable.

-2 Preordain, -1 Swamp, -1 Cabal Ritual, -1 Lotus Petal, -3 Cabal Therapy, -2 Duress; +1 PiF, +2 Xantid Swarm, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Dread of Night (I saw Mentors in his earlier games, but got beat down by clique and snaps with a DoN in play, #irony), +1 Chain of Vapor, +3 Abrupt Decay. I definitely need to tips for this matchup.
2-2, 4-5 in games

Fifth Round: Chris on UG Post (two post matches in a 19 player tournament, how about that?)
Chris was understandably a bit disappointed that we'd have to play, as he was 3-1, and could've drawn if my record were a bit better. Unfortunately, we couldn't this time, so we went for it (plus, I wanted to play, the more Legacy the better). The first game, discard revealed that his only interaction was a repeal, and I was able to get him with a safe Ad Nauseam. The second game was a bit more entertaining, as a series of Glimmerposts put him to 41 life before I could empty his hand of countermagic and crop rotations to go off. Once I did, I used past in flames, tutors, and cantrips to work my way up to the necessary 22 storm before firing off the lethal tendrils. Fortunately, he still made Top 8, so it turned out alright for the both of us.

-1 Preordain, -1 Cabal Therapy; +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Abrupt Decay (I find myself doing this a lot when I don't know the matchup, and it feels lazy. How do you all approach boarding in games where you figure you mostly want to do what you did in game one, but still have outs to whatever hate they might have?)
3-2, 6-5 in games

By this time, I am pleasantly surprised to find my (basically sub 50%, since the bye didn't really require any work) win rate is good enough for a top 8, and meet the other seven to get ready. Unfortunately, one of the eight of us doesn't want to split; they had reduced the prize pool when the event was under-attended, he had driven two hours to play, and felt his deck was well-matched for the top-8, so I do understand.

Round Six: Tom on Hex Depths
The first game, we trade discard for a bit and I eventually come out on top, using a tutor chain to avoid getting bogged by the crop rotation in his hand. Game two, I end up at the following place:

Me: hand of ITx2, DR, DR, CR, AD; Usea and Trop in play, 16 life
Him: only relevant information is that he had a Flusterstorm available, and no permanents other than lands, 16 life.

Is there a solution here? I had no targets for the Abrupt Decay for the entire preceding game, as he discarded my artifact mana and played no decayable permanents. I believe the game ended with me trying to Abrupt Decay Marit Lage, which didn't turn out the way I expected it would (duh) and taking twenty the next turn.
The third game, I was on the play, and my seven card opener was:

DRx2, IT, LED, ToA, GPx2

Do you keep this hand, knowing he's on Hex Depths and we have not seen Force in two games?

I ended up mulling to six, playing discard to see he has the quick combo on turn three, end up playing some rituals into Dark Petition to get the chain of vapor to buy me a turn, draw a second chain of vapor, but then get one duressed and the second countered by crop rotation into sejiri steppe. I boarded similarly to Round Five game two, and got rid of the Abrupt Decay and something else for two more chain of vapors after the second game misplay.
I had looked at the top two before mulling, and they were Scalding tarn and Ad Nauseam. I feel like if I had kept, they would've been Ponder and Preordain, but part of me wishes I had just gone for it. I also found out he would've split our combined prize pool if I had asked, but I wasn't sure what he was on and he knew I was on Storm, so I just wasn't bold enough. I picked up my $30 credit and bought some embarrassingly bad EDH cards and left pretty pleased, despite some play mistakes (learning opportunities!).

In addition to the report, I have a few general questions:

1. I have been reading a lot on here about people playing a more Grinding Station approach, with extra Past in Flames and Tendrils, eschewing the Ad Nauseam for more resilience to countermagic. I am intrigued by this approach, but I find that I really like Ad Nauseam, which seems to be an unfashionable opinion lately (which makes me question if I'm playing the deck correctly). Have I just not played enough games to be burned by AN, or should I maybe be played TES/a hybrid? I think TES is sweet, but fear that it is less resilient/really requires you to make ballsy choices (like the goblins plan always seems shaky to me) but a friend of mine is all about it. Thoughts?
2. I think my mulliganing decisions and boarding are a big factor in my success with the deck (that is, I am not as successful as I would like because my mulliganing decisions and boarding are not strong). Does anyone have any tips or articles they like about mulliganing and boarding with storm lists? I have read Carsten's Stormboarding, and try to go by that, but still feel a bit in the dark sometimes (and probably need to study other potential lists I could play against to have a better idea of what I need to do). Also, a specific example:

Do you keep, on the draw or play, against elves:

LEDx2, LP, Fetch, Fetch, Sensei's Divining Top, AdN?

What are the factors that make you want to ship a hand immediately? To keep one?

3. Related to boarding, I think my list could use a bit of work. What fifteen have you been favoring recently? What would you bring to SCG Philly to fight the hate later this month? I am open to suggestions related to my older, stock list, or any of the variations you favor, especially if you explain why (grinding station/Hybrid/etc)

Thanks for reading, and I appreciate the tips and help in advance!

[ScottW]

@taconaut

I play a list with 2 Past in Flame / 1 Ad Nauseam / 1 Tendrils. It's seems like 2 Past in Flame is the consensus build with or without Ad Nauseam but I may be wrong. I don't have any strong advice (just opinions) as I'm not a veteran of the deck but Ad Nauseam is great. I had an opponent on POX play a Chains of Mephistopheles and I won through it via Ad Nauseam - since you just reveal cards not draw. I also play 1 Empty in my side board to win through Leyline or graveyard hate without needing to CoV or Decay before taking the game (I only play 4 tutors - no Grim Tutors or Dark Petition).

I'd recommend watching videos posted here on this thread and reading through the past 30 pages as well. As you'll see, there are many players who post here that have put a lot of time and thought into playing this deck.

[JamieW89]

I played a local this weekend, and inspired by this tread I decided to play with 2 Islands 1 Swamp for a change (haven't played 3 basics since early 2013 I think). Cut the two green lands for the 9th fetch (4x U, 1x Mire) and 2nd Island and put a Trop in the SB, as well as less green in the SB (close to no Miracles in this store anyways). To make the list better suited for this I ran more Preordains, and the Rain of Filth (which was quite good). Wasn't really impressed by the extra basic though, 2 seems fine.

Round-1: Nic Fit 2-0
Well, that's a nice way to start the day :). Game-1 I blind therapy his zenith and combo off. Game-2 he has an amazing start with turn-1 Shaman into turn-2 Surgical your cantrip, therapy your tutor, flashback therapy your Chain of Vapor, cast Gaddock Teeg. This left him with a dead hand of double Zenith (and he drew the 3rd right after..) however, and I get plenty of time to win. Perhaps going for a blind therapy would have worked better for him (name infernal, surgical infernal, flashback for the bounce later, and have shaman + teeg up).

Round-2: Shardless 2-0
He bemoans his luck as I'm one of the few storm players around, and he played me last time as well (on Pox). Game-1 I keep a weakish 6, but win after discarding his force. He had the option to force my first ritual (I could have led with therapy but then I wouldn't have R for PiF). Game-2 he fetches a turn-2 white source, and remarks "I have them main.." after I sigh. Turns out it was a hymn and not a MMage. I have a top however, and I win next turn despite him cascading into an actual Meddling Mage on turn-3 (naming Infernal). I have CRit, AdN, Chain, and LED and end up having to bouncing the Mage anyways in order to turn on threshold by saccing some lands.

Round-3: Nic Fit 2-0
Heh. Game-2 he thoughtseizes me on turn-1 and sees something along the lines of Land,LP,DR,CR,LED,PiF,Preordain, taking the Preordain. I topdeck Brainstorm and decide to go looking for the turn-1 kill, before he has he chance to play more hate. It's there, with a probe to boot (no surgical).

Round-4: UR Delver ID
Round-5: MUD/Maverick (not sure) ID

We split the prizes, and I get to play against Delver in the QF.

Quarterfinal: 4c Delver 1-2
I keep a 6 with Tutor, Duress and 3 or 4 lands. We get to a boardstate where he has lethal next turn and Pierce, Pierce, Fow (no extra U-card) in hand. I have 4 lands out, and land, Tutor, Duress, and multiple Rituals in my hand. If I draw a piece of fastmana (incl tutors), a pif, or a tendrils (or discard/bad cantrip if he missplays his pierces I think) I can win through his hand, but I draw another land so I can't get hellbent.
Game-2 he has a turn-2 Mana Maze.. I had to read that card. Argh. I manage to deploy some tops though, and setup for a few turns. He did get to Clique my Infernal and I'm not finding much business with the tops (him brainstorming in my upkeep messes with some cantrips too). Finally I find my empty and I float it for a bit until I can go Dark Rit, Top, Duress (See FoW, FoW, Pierce, Ponder - take fow to not make him suspicious), LED (if he had countered I'd be dead, so I didn't want to take ponder), Dark Rit, sac LED for red, flip tops a bunch (he should have countered the first), and finally the empty for close to 30 tokens. He counters a few but doesn't find an out with Ponder. The goblins race his Clique + Shaman.
Game-3 I keep Bloodstained Mire, LED, LED, GP, Infernal, BS, BS. He starts land, go, and I probe him (on the play I'd have made the goblin tokens though, maybe I'd have tried vs a turn-1 dude on the draw as well) to see Wasteland, Daze, pierce, Brainstorm, junk). I play my land and pass, intending to possibly EoT brainstorm, untap and reeval. Because he has Wasteland, and my only land is the singular non-U fetch (grrrr) I can't just fetch turn-1 to avoid Stifle. His brainstorm hits stifle, and about 8 turns later I don't have a mana source despite boarding up to 16 lands. Oh well, sometimes you lose.

[Echelon]

Round-1: Nic Fit 2-0
Well, that's a nice way to start the day :). Game-1 I blind therapy his zenith and combo off. Game-2 he has an amazing start with turn-1 Shaman into turn-2 Surgical your cantrip, therapy your tutor, flashback therapy your Chain of Vapor, cast Gaddock Teeg. This left him with a dead hand of double Zenith (and he drew the 3rd right after..) however, and I get plenty of time to win. Perhaps going for a blind therapy would have worked better for him (name infernal, surgical infernal, flashback for the bounce later, and have shaman + teeg up).


Yeah, that second game was rough. In hindsight I should indeed have gone blind Therapy on Tutor, flashback Therapy on Chain, Surgical Chain and then cast Gaddock Teeg. Or would you have had other outs to Teeg after the Chains had been extracted?

In our game I just assumed I'd run into the worst case scenario, which would have been that I'd ended up Surgicalling a cantrip/ritual spell if the first Therapy had missed. I dunno. I know my window vs. ANT is limited and wanted to make the most out of it. Surgicalling a sub-par cantrip to ensure my Therapy would hit twice after which I could drop Teeg seemed like the line that'd put me in the best position.

Looking back on that game, would you have approached it differently if you'd been the one on Nic Fit (knowing what my hand was at that point and you had no knowledge yet of what the Storm player's hand looked like)? I'm looking to learn something here :smile:.

[nevilshute]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/piecesofthepuzzle.jpg

Could this be of any use to us? :2::u: might be :1: too expensive, but getting 5 card deep, grabbing two instants and/or sorceries and potentially binning more for a later Past in Flames seems interesting.

[JamieW89]

I had 2 Abrupt Decay in the deck as well for Teeg.

As for what I would have done, maybe something like this:

t1 Land, Shaman, Pass.
t1 Land, Preordain, Pass.

Turn-2: Land and Shaman on the battlefield. Teeg, 2x Zenith, Therapy, Land, Surgical in hand. (this was correct right? don't have my notes here)

Play Land, cast Zenith for Veteran Explorer (assuming you had one in the deck still).
Use the Shaman to cast Therapy targetting me, naming Infernal Tutor.
Sacrifice Veteran Explorer to flashback Cabal Therapy, naming something good (Chain in this case), fetching Plains + Forest.
Cast Surgical Extraction on Infernal Tutor (if the therapy didn't see a great target just keep it up).
Cast Gaddock Teeg.

Now you have Teeg, Deathrite Shaman, plenty of lands to cast anything, and I no longer have Infernals in my deck.

[Echelon]

I had 2 Abrupt Decay in the deck as well for Teeg.

As for what I would have done, maybe something like this:

t1 Land, Shaman, Pass.
t1 Land, Preordain, Pass.

Turn-2: Land and Shaman on the battlefield. Teeg, 2x Zenith, Therapy, Land, Surgical in hand. (this was correct right? don't have my notes here)

Play Land, cast Zenith for Veteran Explorer (assuming you had one in the deck still).
Use the Shaman to cast Therapy targetting me, naming Infernal Tutor.
Sacrifice Veteran Explorer to flashback Cabal Therapy, naming something good (Chain in this case), fetching Plains + Forest.
Cast Surgical Extraction on Infernal Tutor (if the therapy didn't see a great target just keep it up).
Cast Gaddock Teeg.

Now you have Teeg, Deathrite Shaman, plenty of lands to cast anything, and I no longer have Infernals in my deck.

Yes, you are absolutely right, I still had 1 Explorer left and you're spot on about my hand. That line never occured to me. I guess I shouldn't be too scared to go past turn 2 when facing Storm. Lesson learned, thank you good sir :smile:.

Generally my line of thought when facing Storm is "I'm going to die, I'm going to die, I'm going to die, oh fuck I'm going to die". Seriously, both ANT and TES scare the shit out of me. I need to be/stay more levelheaded when facing those decks.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Generally my line of thought when facing Storm is "I'm going to die, I'm going to die, I'm going to die, oh fuck I'm going to die". Seriously, both ANT and TES scare the shit out of me. I need to be/stay more levelheaded when facing those decks.

I tend to not respect the turn one kill. If you start doing meaningful things before their turn two, that's usually alright, as long as you don't only have one or two interactive cards.
Also heavily disagree with Surgical on cantrips, especially if you have a discard spell to follow up with. I'm not sure I quite agree with Jamie's line though, giving your Storm opponent two basics can easily backfire. You definitely want to cast Therapy first. Then you can check what they have and if their hand is unlikely to get Ad Nauseam + removal, you can get Explorer. If they have access to multiple cantrips even after your second Therapy though, you should probably not get Explorer. I think it generally helps the Storm player more than it does you.

[Echelon]

I tend to not respect the turn one kill. If you start doing meaningful things before their turn two, that's usually alright, as long as you don't only have one or two interactive cards.
Also heavily disagree with Surgical on cantrips, especially if you have a discard spell to follow up with. I'm not sure I quite agree with Jamie's line though, giving your Storm opponent two basics can easily backfire. You definitely want to cast Therapy first. Then you can check what they have and if their hand is unlikely to get Ad Nauseam + removal, you can get Explorer. If they have access to multiple cantrips even after your second Therapy though, you should probably not get Explorer. I think it generally helps the Storm player more than it does you.

Thank you for the advice. Therapy first, Surgical later.

I know Explorer is incredibly risky vs. Storm, that's part of the reason why I didn't think to take that line. The other part was that I was too focused on dropping Gaddock Teeg ASAP. Either way, Therapy first, Surgical later would have mattered quite a bit. And if I'd missed on the first Therapy (in case he didn't have the Tutor in hand), I would have at least known not to fear that (yet) and mayhaps Surgical whatever other relevant card he could have had in hand. Or I could have kept the Surgical to possibly fuck up a potential PiF. Either way it turns out patience is a virtue.

[Sloshthedark]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/piecesofthepuzzle.jpg

Could this be of any use to us? :2::u: might be :1: too expensive, but getting 5 card deep, grabbing two instants and/or sorceries and potentially binning more for a later Past in Flames seems interesting.

Do you think it would be playable at 1U?, I'd prefer to have it grab up to 1 for U...

but the card really needs to be compared to this (it's even visualy reminiscent) which isn't played at all...

http://archive.wizards.com/global/images/mtgcom_arcana_403_pic1_en.jpg

[nevilshute]

Do you think it would be playable at 1U?, I'd prefer to have it grab up to 1 for U...

but the card really needs to be compared to this (it's even visualy reminiscent) which isn't played at all...

http://archive.wizards.com/global/images/mtgcom_arcana_403_pic1_en.jpg

Not sure tbh. We're running upwards of 36 instant/sorceries so chances of hitting 2 are very good. In those cases this is a 2-for-1 (plus what ever value you ascribe to potential past in flames benefits later from what gets dumped in the yard).

At instant speed I'd say it's almost certainly just flat out better than Intuition and probably good enough to test. At sorcery speed, maybe (probably) not. Not sure though. Worth at least discussing :smile:

[Lemnear]

Not sure tbh. We're running upwards of 36 instant/sorceries so chances of hitting 2 are very good. In those cases this is a 2-for-1 (plus what ever value you ascribe to potential past in flames benefits later from what gets dumped in the yard).

At instant speed I'd say it's almost certainly just flat out better than Intuition and probably good enough to test. At sorcery speed, maybe (probably) not. Not sure though. Worth at least discussing :smile:

Its still a three-mana card. When do you plan to win then? Isn't the virtual cardasvantage the deck generates by blanking opposing cards and interaction angles already enough? Heck, I would rather play infernal contract

[Sloshthedark]

Not sure tbh. We're running upwards of 36 instant/sorceries so chances of hitting 2 are very good. In those cases this is a 2-for-1 (plus what ever value you ascribe to potential past in flames benefits later from what gets dumped in the yard).

At instant speed I'd say it's almost certainly just flat out better than Intuition and probably good enough to test. At sorcery speed, maybe (probably) not. Not sure though. Worth at least discussing :smile:

the question is it spending 2U (or even 1U) for such effect good enough? it's a lottery which can turn into amazing wins out of nowhere or nothing really, at a usual cost of 1 turn, I can definitely see spots where such card can be awesome if you are in a lategame or behind on resources, but it I don't think I'd like to open a 7 with it

I think at 1U instant it would compete or might be better than Intution or U grab 1 compete with Ponder/Preordain/SDT and I would be much more excited do try it out, the card is interesting but imo it's not good enough

[ScottW]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/piecesofthepuzzle.jpg

Could this be of any use to us? :2::u: might be :1: too expensive, but getting 5 card deep, grabbing two instants and/or sorceries and potentially binning more for a later Past in Flames seems interesting.

This reminds me of Forbidden Alchemy.

[Ronald Deuce]

Hey all,

I made the top eight of a small (19 people) Philadelphia Legacy series event last Saturday, and wanted to write it up and ask some questions....

-1 Preordain, -1 Cabal Therapy; +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Abrupt Decay (I find myself doing this a lot when I don't know the matchup, and it feels lazy. How do you all approach boarding in games where you figure you mostly want to do what you did in game one, but still have outs to whatever hate they might have?)

Hello, and thanks for the report!

It looks like you're bringing in Abrupt Decay more often than I would recommend. Against Eidolon, it's still not expensive enough to avoid the blowback, and in a lot of the matchups you played it looks like either another Chain of Vapor or Disfigure would be a better option. Either one handles a lot of the biggest threats you're likely to encounter (hatebears, Deathrite), Chain handles noncreatures (and Marit Lage!), and Disfigure can keep you in the game by taking out problem aggro creatures if you really need to. Decay is extremely important against Miracles, so it's worth running four in the 'board for that matchup alone.

The trouble with Decay is that it requires a fourth color to run, so it doesn't do much against a clock and it becomes really hard to use if the opponent is running Wasteland.

I wouldn't recommend boarding out more than one Therapy most of the time. Sometimes you need the slots, but it's extremely powerful against stacked hands and it synergizes excellently with Probe, Duress, and Empty the Warrens.


Do you keep, on the draw or play, against elves:

LEDx2, LP, Fetch, Fetch, Sensei's Divining Top, AdN?

What are the factors that make you want to ship a hand immediately? To keep one?

Regarding the example you gave, if it were game one, I would keep. You're one Brainstorm away from a turn-2 Ad Nauseam and Elves is light on Haste creatures :D

If the opponent knows what we're doing, I would still consider keeping if I were on the play, but Top is yucky here. You've got two LEDs and a Petal that you can throw down immediately to circumvent Cabal Therapy, you've got a Top, and you've got some land. If the Top were a Brainstorm or a Ponder, I would definitely keep. The Top is the real sticking point here because Elves can just Glimpse into all their guys before we get to stack or shuffle.

Generally, if a hand is close to a T1-T2 and it's got redundancy or can win off of multiple different topdeck options, it's as good as it gets. Subtracting from there, I find it's helpful to think in terms of what cards (and how many) it'll take to go off. I'm sorry to generalize, but the question of "how/when do I keep or mulligan" is a pretty broad one that's hard to address concisely. My rules of thumb are as follows: never keep a hand with no land and no fast mana; never keep a hand with no business/acceleration and no rituals; never keep a hand with multiple Preordains and AdN/PiF/Tendrils/Dark Petition/Empty unless you've got everything else you need; never keep a hand with multiple cantrips and no blue sources; never keep a hand that's ALL one thing (cantrips, fast mana, rituals, business, tutors, discard, lands); never EVER mulligan to four.

If I'm going against heavy discard, I'd keep hands with fast mana or redundant cantrips because fast mana is easy to rush out and cantrips can help us shake off Thoughtseize, Therapy, etc.

The faster the opponent's deck is, the less useful it is to keep hands loaded with cantrips. In the absence of business (and against something that's not fast combo), two or three is probably what I've found to be best.

If an opponent can lock us out really quickly (Chalice, Gaddock, Thalia, Eidolon, etc.), hands with two discards and a Peek effect are pretty handy to keep.


Related to boarding, I think my list could use a bit of work. What fifteen have you been favoring recently? What would you bring to SCG Philly to fight the hate later this month? I am open to suggestions related to my older, stock list, or any of the variations you favor, especially if you explain why (grinding station/Hybrid/etc)

Thanks for reading, and I appreciate the tips and help in advance!

I'm in a similar spot right now regarding my sideboard. I'm still juggling it around and I'm not the most experienced Storm pilot, but here's what I'd recommend:

—Run a full quad of Decay for Miracles, and maybe a fifth card for the matchup, too (usually KGrip)
—Dread of Night is much better on paper than it is in-game unless you're running a quad. I don't think that's the best use of the space, and I find that Disfigure does more for us against everything but Mom.
—I'm not a fan of Xantid Swarm or Carpet at all. I may sneak in a singleton of one or the other (probably Carpet), but for now I'm not playing any.

For now, I'm kicking around this sideboard:
4x Abrupt Decay (for Miracles)
1x Krosan Grip (ditto)
1x Tropical Island (I'm on 14 lands main)
2x Empty the Warrens (On the fence regarding whether to run both)
2x Disfigure (for any aggro, burn, Deathrite, GADDOCK TEEG, etc.)
2x Chain of Vapor (for everything. Either this or Empty is probably my sideboard MVP; see below)
1x Massacre (Death and Taxes, Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, tokens, etc.)
1x Hurkyl's Recall (MUD, X-post, miscellaneous varied artifacts that screw us like Engineered Explosives, Chalice, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, The Rack)
1x Echoing Truth (multiple copies of the same threat, usually Chalice, Deathrite Shaman, tokens, etc.)

I'm seriously considering rotating in a second Past in Flames or Tendrils, a third Chain, or a couple of Surgical Extractions. Just not sure which direction I want to take the 'board at the moment, and I have a feeling that, between tournaments, I won't ever have a board that's set in stone. Once I've got the last two duals, I'm hoping to turn my attention toward procuring Flusterstorms.

Absolutely run two Chains or more. I've won some ridiculously untenable games off a topdecked Chain that I wouldn't have assumed were possible simply by virtue of the fact that it can add Storm count (target your own mana rocks), build Threshold (ditto; sacrifice lands AFTER tapping), and pick off That One Thing That's Stopping Us. All at the same time. For one mana. N.B.: it clashes a bit with Rain of Filth, so two Chains might be all we can manage if we're running both Rain and Chain. And don't use Chain against decks with Chalice.

One last thing: I wouldn't recommend running multiple Preordains and a Sensei's Top in your mainboard. They take longest to get us where we need to go and you're only running four "big" spells, so your wincon saturation is a bit low. Some people have advocated that type of build, and I would defer to other people's judgment, but it feels like too few for me.

[ThomasDowd]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/piecesofthepuzzle.jpg

Could this be of any use to us? :2::u: might be :1: too expensive, but getting 5 card deep, grabbing two instants and/or sorceries and potentially binning more for a later Past in Flames seems interesting.

Not at sorcery speed.

[phazonmutant]

Not at sorcery speed.

Why does sorcery speed matter that much for Storm? Like at best if it were instant, you would cast Pieces of the Puzzle EOT to try to tap them out of Pierce / Flusterstorm mana which doesn't seem like an incredibly relevant difference. This card seems very, very powerful to me, although it might require some tweaks to how we construct the deck. I did some goldfish games with a Grinding Station style list and it seems fairly absurd. Pieces of the Puzzle was like a draw 3 with selection. It's a little slower because there's less quick selection (like Preordain), but the late-game power is just going to crush any counterspell deck. I'm sure this isn't the optimal build, but give it a spin.

4 Pieces of the Puzzle
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

[Jonathan Alexander]

Why does sorcery speed matter that much for Storm? Like at best if it were instant, you would cast Pieces of the Puzzle EOT to try to tap them out of Pierce / Flusterstorm mana which doesn't seem like an incredibly relevant difference.

Instant speed is important not because you can cast spells in your opponents' end steps but in your own, when they think they can safely tap out. You play first, they Brainstorm end of turn three, unwisely fetch end step rather than upkeep, you cast things. Or they have Clique or whatever. Anyway, I have not been impressed with Meditate way back in the day, I doubt I will be impressed with this. I'm honestly not even sure it would be good at 1U, but certainly interesting. At 1U other decks would probably still benefit more. Same goes for instant speed. In either case it would probably make Omni a deck again, but like this, I doubt it's playable in Legacy.

[Kanti]

the question is it spending 2U (or even 1U) for such effect good enough? it's a lottery which can turn into amazing wins out of nowhere or nothing really, at a usual cost of 1 turn, I can definitely see spots where such card can be awesome if you are in a lategame or behind on resources, but it I don't think I'd like to open a 7 with it

I think at 1U instant it would compete or might be better than Intution or U grab 1 compete with Ponder/Preordain/SDT and I would be much more excited do try it out, the card is interesting but imo it's not good enough

Sorry but at 1U instant the card would be insane. What sort of world do you imagine in your brain? That's some opressive stuff man. Anyhow, the card is much better in something like a High Tide shell, and does not look to good in a deck as straight-forward as ANT, or as fast as ANT. Honestly gutted it's not an instant as I have a deep affection for Solidarity, and this would slot perfectly as a. Would even consider dropping Meditates for this as it's a killer set-up. tldr though, and off topic.

Also, don't see how the card is at all similiar to Intuition, as that card requires multiples of cards. This is just like a charged [card]Peer through Depths[/cards]. All this deck needs are IMCs, rituals, 1cc cantrips, protection, tutors, and a kill. This card is none of those.

edit: 2-of? More like auto 4-of. Damn you WotC.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think at 1U instant it would compete or might be better than Intution or U grab 1 compete with Ponder/Preordain/SDT and I would be much more excited do try it out, the card is interesting but imo it's not good enough

Wow, didn't read that. You realise that card exists and is on the ban list, right?

[Lemnear]

Could someine verify this is the ANT thread and not the card creation section of TheSource?

[Sloshthedark]

Sorry but at 1U instant the card would be insane. What sort of world do you imagine in your brain? That's some opressive stuff man. Anyhow, the card is much better in something like a High Tide shell, and does not look to good in a deck as straight-forward as ANT, or as fast as ANT. Honestly gutted it's not an instant as I have a deep affection for Solidarity, and this would slot perfectly as a. Would even consider dropping Meditates for this as it's a killer set-up. tldr though, and off topic.

Also, don't see how the card is at all similiar to Intuition, as that card requires multiples of cards. This is just like a charged [card]Peer through Depths[/cards]. All this deck needs are IMCs, rituals, 1cc cantrips, protection, tutors, and a kill. This card is none of those.

edit: 2-of? More like auto 4-of. Damn you WotC.

the world of this deck... doesn't matter what it would be for mtg, if they unban Frantic Search would you play it in Ant? - most likely no, would it be insane in High tide - yes
I'm also aware that the other proposed version U grab 1 is retarded in reanimator, but that isn't the point, my point is the card has to be better in context of ANT to be worth changing the list for that's all

it's similar to Intuition, other than being discussed for Ant for a short time, both are U, costed the same, one puts a card into your hand and 2 into a GY for future use at upside of instant speed and you choing the 3 cards compared to probability of having 2+ relevant card in top 5 of your deck, the first one is a tutor the second one sorts of value cantrip/micro engine


Wow, didn't read that. You realise that card exists and is on the ban list, right?

if you mean Dig, have we played Dig?

[Dark Ritual]

This deck doesn't need some clunky 3 mana sorcery that draws 2 random out of the top 5. At 2, sure this would probably be nuts but 3? We have access to dark petition now too, making this even less of a consideration. Intuition practically guarantees a kill next turn, this does not. We don't play intuition either. Neat card and better than uncovered clues, which bottoms the 2 and looks at 4, but that card is widely regarded as pretty bad and we never discussed it. This card is interesting with past in flames but so is intuition as intuition finding, say, PiF, infernal, and CRit is pretty damn good whereas this isn't necessarily finding relevant cards for PiF to use as you're almost always hitting a land, some useless garbage that you can't flashback with PiF, and some artifact or instant speed ritual effects. No control over what you put in the bin makes this card inconsistent by nature. Yes you could hit the nut high with this and make it 3 mana to draw basically 5 cards, but we don't go by what could happen 1% of the time we look at what will generally happen a high percentage of the time.

[Lemnear]

http://i.tcgplayer.com/541.jpg

This exists too and no one cares

[frafen]

[IMG]

This exists too and no one cares This is almost like stating that dig through time is bad because no one care about impulse.

The new card is intresting. In a deck that plays lots of instant and sorceries pieces of the puzzle is really similar to a fixed dig through time that grow your graveyard instead of killing it. I don't know if it's good enough for ANT but probably it could be nice in a deck like High Tide.

[Lemnear]

This is almost like stating that dig through time is bad because no one care about impulse.

The new card is intresting. In a deck that plays lots of instant and sorceries pieces of the puzzle is really similar to a fixed dig through time that grow your graveyard instead of killing it. I don't know if it's good enough for ANT but probably it could be nice in a deck like High Tide.

It was in regards to the CUSTOM version people brought up

[CabalTherapy]

Alright guys,
I was in Hannover on Saturday and went 3-1-1 into 6th of 29. Locations was nice but the fee/price ratio is kind of bad but I didn't care that much.
I played 2 Toa, 1 Etw, 2 Pif, 1 Grim, 0 AdN main list with this SB:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Xantid Swarm
1 City of Solitude
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ground Seal
2 Chain of Vapor (switched one Extirpate for the 2nd Chain right before the tournament becase a friend told me that he has seen some DnT decks sleeving up)
1 Bayou
1 Ad Nauseam

Lost game 1 to Dragoncombo. My opponent was probably not the best player because he struggled through some turns but apparently had FoW and discard paired with a fast combokill. I was kind of salty to lose the first round
of the tournament in such a fashion but tried to focus on the next rounds. He drew the first game in response to my ritual with Gorgerloop and then proceeded to win two games out of the next three topdecking the perfect card in
our last game; obviously. 1-2-1
Then, I won against TinFins 2-0, nothing special here, he drew nothing and I had to win against Children of Korlis in game two: easy task.
Next round, I destroyed Pox 2-0. After some discard action I had LEDs with PiF and some juice in the yard both times.
My next opponent was on Burn, where I had the first turn kill with Probe. He won the next game rather unlucky because my two Brainstorms showed me no Ritual which would have won instantly. The last game was enjoyable
because he went down to 4 (scry: Mindbreak on top, I saw it next turn) where I played: Probe, Ritual, Petal, Land, EtW for 8 dudes. He played Mountain > go and I saw the Trap with my Duress taking a damage spell and leaving
him with Null Rod, Mountain, and Trap in hand. 2-1
The last round was tough. I knew he was on Miracles and he started with Top, CB on turn two. Great... I continued to play and had (I think) two windows to win but unfortunatley not the kill ready. He won with Entreat for 2 at some point. I boarded heavily and got him with two Tendrils from my hand after a grindy match where he missed some landdrops. Unfortunatly, time ran out and he moved to game 3 with only 15 minutes on the clock. Again, I've assambled both Tendrils in my hand but he countered every attempt to play them. Rest in Peace took care of my threshold (had three Cabal Rituals) at that point but knew about his Fluster, FoW, Counterspell hand with some more cards. We hadn't had time to play it out. 1-1-1
At least, a solid result once more but I am sure I had decent chances to win the third game against Miracles.

[ManCharm]

Could someine verify this is the ANT thread and not the card creation section of TheSource?

/checks forum, immediately closes forum/

Clearly nothing to see here

[TheHeff]

Gonna see if I can get this back a little bit on topic, I've been playing legacy for about three years and played a mix of RUG/BUG delver, Shardless, and some Miracles, with the bulk of that time on Shardless. I'm looking to branch out a little bit into combo, since the midrange/control strategy was getting a little stale for me. Picked up the pieces I needed to finish ANT in paper/online to get some experience with the deck. I picked what I think is a pretty stock list to start (link in sig) but I have a few questions as far as deck construction goes:


How does the 1x Rain of Filth play? Is it worth it over something like a second PiF/Petition or a Top/3rd Preordain?
In what metas is it beneficial to have the second PiF or Tendrils? Or multiple Tops main/SB?
I like how Dark Petition goldfishes, but how frequently do you hit it with an Ad Nauseam? Do you cut the AdN if you want to try two Petitions?
Is Xantid Swarm falling a little out of favor? People seem to not like it against Miracles so much anymore, but isn't it good to have to keep them honest so they keep some removal in?
Dread of Night seems great as a DnT hoser, but is it worth it to try to sneak in some number of Disfigure for versatility?
Is Flusterstorm or Surgical Extraction worth having around as a 1-2 of in the side? Do you add in Fluster against Stifle decks?
Carpet of flowers in against Miracles, cutting Cabal Ritual?


Sorry for the ton of questions, thanks in advance for any advice!

[thefringthing]

I bring in Carpet against Miracles, but I cut Lotus Petal rather than Cabal Ritual.

[Ronald Deuce]

Gonna see if I can get this back a little bit on topic, I've been playing legacy for about three years and played a mix of RUG/BUG delver, Shardless, and some Miracles, with the bulk of that time on Shardless. I'm looking to branch out a little bit into combo, since the midrange/control strategy was getting a little stale for me. Picked up the pieces I needed to finish ANT in paper/online to get some experience with the deck. I picked what I think is a pretty stock list to start (link in sig) but I have a few questions as far as deck construction goes:


How does the 1x Rain of Filth play? Is it worth it over something like a second PiF/Petition or a Top/3rd Preordain?
In what metas is it beneficial to have the second PiF or Tendrils? Or multiple Tops main/SB?
I like how Dark Petition goldfishes, but how frequently do you hit it with an Ad Nauseam? Do you cut the AdN if you want to try two Petitions?
Is Xantid Swarm falling a little out of favor? People seem to not like it against Miracles so much anymore, but isn't it good to have to keep them honest so they keep some removal in?
Dread of Night seems great as a DnT hoser, but is it worth it to try to sneak in some number of Disfigure for versatility?
Is Flusterstorm or Surgical Extraction worth having around as a 1-2 of in the side? Do you add in Fluster against Stifle decks?
Carpet of flowers in against Miracles, cutting Cabal Ritual?


Sorry for the ton of questions, thanks in advance for any advice!

First of all, welcome to the Dark Side!

In answer to your questions:

—Rain of Filth is superb. Adds to Threshold, adds to Storm, helps us sneak mana against Daze, has the potential to be bigger than Dark Rit. I'm not a fan of running a third Preordain or a Top in place of it primarily because, even with the 10-cantrip plan (I'm not counting Probes), I keep cantripping into cantrips, which occasionally costs me the game. I'm playing what appears to be a slightly unorthodox list (similar to Scherer's), running two Petitions and 14 lands, so I don't really view the Rain as a competitor for a business slot. More on that later, maybe.

—Having extra Tendrils seems to be primarily a bulwark against getting our business countered with RiP on the table. (N.B. you can also cast two copies of Tendrils starting at storm 4 [and again with storm 5] to win the game off of only six spells.) As far as I can tell, running two copies of PiF is primarily a means to give us discard-, counter-, and mill-proof options for our combo, but it also may necessitate using more LEDs and cracking them for blue instead of red relatively often. I prefer having an extra tutor in the main because, in my experience, it's not likely we'll draw into two PiFs in a game, and I like the flexibility of playing six tutors. I'm not an expert on the double-PiF line of play, so if someone (Togores?) wants to give a more in-depth answer, by all means go for it! I'd appreciate a thorough, up-to-date explanation as well.

—I'm running two Petitions and AdN in my maindeck. I really, really like Petition; it's only failed me a couple of times (countermagic notwithstanding) and having a five-cost tutor is actually pretty handy against Countertop and Inquisition. It's not often a problem to AdN with both in the deck because I tend either to cast AdN from 20-17 life or to use it as a last resort. It packs real heat, but you've got to be really careful with it: always, always, always board it out versus Burn. I lucked out against BRUG Delver last Sunday by AdN-ing to 3 to find Cabal Therapy (he had a Flusterstorm in his hand), which normally is a really stupid play (I didn't have any other option here), but he didn't have Bolt so I won. If you're goldfishing with AdN, think in terms of how much life you expect to have on a given turn, and subtract 1 or 2. This may make you kill yourself more often in testing than you'd hope, but it should also give you an idea of how far you can push AdN. In tournament play, I've only killed myself off of AdN twice: those games were months ago, and in at least one of them, I was on the ropes already.

—Personally, I don't like Swarm. I can see why people run it, but I don't want more green cards and I don't feel like it's worth it to try to get our opponents to run kill spells. They'll just board in more countermagic instead of keeping in removal because counters knock out the Swarm and are better against us anyway.

—I cut Dread for Disfigures a while ago. The only thing Dread does better is deal with Mentor tokens and Mother of Runes. None of the hatebears we need to worry about from D&T have one toughness except Thalia, and because she's a Legend, we won't be netting more than one dead hatebear for a Dread. Gets much stronger in multiples, but I wouldn't count on finding them. In short, Dread's great if you have four sideboard slots available, but I'd prefer to cut back to two Disfigures and a Massacre (all of which help a variety of other matchups), saving a slot.

—Haven't tested Flusterstorm or Extraction yet, but I want to. Been seeing some graveyard shenanigans lately, and I like having a counterspell that can counter opposing Flusterstorms :D I'm not sure how it performs against Stifle. I'd recommend just baiting out Stifles or hitting them with discard, but again, I'd defer to people who've tested both methods. I've not encountered Stifle on a storm trigger once, but it can happen.

—I don't cut any rituals anymore (long story short, I boarded out a CabRit once, and ended up with two Infernals in hand, two CabRits in the 'yard, one in hand, and no way to win because I'd boarded out the fourth Rit. Was dead to creatures the next turn; I'm an idiot; lesson learned). I can see the merit in doing something like that. I haven't tested it either, though, so don't take my word for it.

Hope I could help! Regarding multiple business spells, Flusterstorm/Surgical, and Miracles boarding, I'm probably not the best person to give advice, but I'm pretty confident regarding the other stuff. Best of luck riding the Storm!

I have a separate question: it seems like a lot of people are cutting down to only three copies of Therapy. Why is this? I've found it to be much more useful than Duress. So why a 3-3 split?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I have a separate question: it seems like a lot of people are cutting down to only three copies of Therapy. Why is this? I've found it to be much more useful than Duress. So why a 3-3 split?

Because Caleb does it and most people online do as well. Makes sense in these contexts, but doesn't in most other lists.

[Lemnear]

How does the 1x Rain of Filth play? Is it worth it over something like a second PiF/Petition or a Top/3rd Preordain?
It's the 9th Ritual and extremely handle for long games and/or those which shut down your yard postboard. Fast t.hold is a benefit also but usually not quite the card you want for game 1s and therefore kinda displaced

In what metas is it beneficial to have the second PiF or Tendrils? Or multiple Tops main/SB?
The Grinding Station plan seems to shine in very slow matchups to reduce the relicane on IT. SDT is a nice way to battle discard, but as discard is commonly paired with DRS, the tech seems kinda outdated.

I like how Dark Petition goldfishes, but how frequently do you hit it with an Ad Nauseam? Do you cut the AdN if you want to try two Petitions?
It reduces the reliance on IT (Meddling Mage) and increases density of Tutors, but unlike Preordains it does nothing for your early game when you try to get access to lands/discard. It also lacks Synergy with LED or AN, not to talk about fighting yardhate

Is Xantid Swarm falling a little out of favor? People seem to not like it against Miracles so much anymore, but isn't it good to have to keep them honest so they keep some removal in?
The Main justification for Xantids are deck which overload on counters postboard or run no solutions to creatures in general like S&T or Meerfolk. The decline of these decks however make Xantid less attractive as an option

Dread of Night seems great as a DnT hoser, but is it worth it to try to sneak in some number of Disfigure for versatility?
It hosses Thalia & Mom; no Canonist/Teeg/Revoker/MeddlingMage/DRS/Eidolonetc what happens to cross your way throughout a tournament. Disfigure is a lot more versatile.

Is Flusterstorm or Surgical Extraction worth having around as a 1-2 of in the side? Do you add in Fluster against Stifle decks?
Fluststorms are optional in the Sideboard against other, faster combo decks like Belcher/TES/S&T/Reanimator/etc to supplement the discard and delay the game to the point ANT can win

Carpet of flowers in against Miracles, cutting Cabal Ritual?
Carpet is merely ok and used to combat the yardhate, which can be worked around with CoV and/or spellchains. Another relic of a time where blue decks needed more than 1-2 Islands to operate

[Togores]

Gonna see if I can get this back a little bit on topic, I've been playing legacy for about three years and played a mix of RUG/BUG delver, Shardless, and some Miracles, with the bulk of that time on Shardless. I'm looking to branch out a little bit into combo, since the midrange/control strategy was getting a little stale for me. Picked up the pieces I needed to finish ANT in paper/online to get some experience with the deck. I picked what I think is a pretty stock list to start (link in sig) but I have a few questions as far as deck construction goes:


[1]How does the 1x Rain of Filth play? Is it worth it over something like a second PiF/Petition or a Top/3rd Preordain?
[2]In what metas is it beneficial to have the second PiF or Tendrils? Or multiple Tops main/SB?
[3]I like how Dark Petition goldfishes, but how frequently do you hit it with an Ad Nauseam? Do you cut the AdN if you want to try two Petitions?
[4]Is Xantid Swarm falling a little out of favor? People seem to not like it against Miracles so much anymore, but isn't it good to have to keep them honest so they keep some removal in?
[5]Dread of Night seems great as a DnT hoser, but is it worth it to try to sneak in some number of Disfigure for versatility?
[6]Is Flusterstorm or Surgical Extraction worth having around as a 1-2 of in the side? Do you add in Fluster against Stifle decks?
[7]Carpet of flowers in against Miracles, cutting Cabal Ritual?


Sorry for the ton of questions, thanks in advance for any advice!

My answers:

1 Rain of filth is nuts, I do side out sometimes 3rd and 4th cabal ritual (2 vs miracles + uwr Blade, 1 vs Deathrite sometimes). But never side Rain out. Fast mana and tre-s-hold when your racing + ton of mana in long games. Also hte top is good in slow metas, If your gonna face a lot of jund, miracles, blade Top t1 is 80% game vs them. Just so much filtering + put extra bussined on top to Dodge one counter.

2 The second pif is good to be faster. Does multiple things. Usualy making like ritual + pif with 2 mana up makes your opp counter it just because gitaxian + cantrip + discard or ritual is to huge of card advantage. Also allows lots of cool lines:
pif + ritual + infernal + led -> pif into cabal ritual = gg also makes that pif + ritual+ infernal + led + cabal ritual dodges one couner because of being able to search for discard. thats just the most basic lines. But With 5 lands up vs control just cast pif is a muss counter, then ritual recast pif wich is a muss counter again then ritual ritual tendrills is usual.
Also vs discard like pox, jund and the mirror makes you better in discard + topdeck wars.
Finaly its great When your opp uses resources to remove your pif because you need it to win there and you just search the second one. I have won many games like so. Your at 4 lives Infernal discarting pif for led with 5 mana floating and 3-4 storm against a DRS and he just removes your pif and win the game.

3 I dont like peitition or grim tutor.

4 I dont usualy side xantid against miracles, but lately I have been playing 2 (last event I played 0 because of metagame thing) but its ok against merfolk, omniscense, sneak and show, infect, reanimator and even cloudpost even the mono Green versión (sometimes they have like midnbreak + a bunch of surgical). Also not playing them in you 75 makes your opp not to be forced to leave removal in. Thats bad, that your opp dosnt let cards for them in fear. Also you can sometimes win games because your opp in RUG delver has take out al bolts and you just win.

5 I dont like dread of night, If im gonna play it I need to play 3 at least (and I max have 2 slots for White anti hate in my sb). So I prefer to run 2 massacre. They come in against patriot (someone even plays it nowadays?), blade with magues and cannonist, deathblade, maverik (kills DRS and all stuff), and taxes. The bad thing is that Taxes players in fear of dread usualy keep g2-3 hands with revoker + canonist. This makes your dread be like the shitt.

6 I like flusterstorm it comes in against: stifle, renomator, belcher, show and tell, storm, miracles, elves, hymn decks and a few more. Just really good against them. I have played sturgical sometimes but is less good tan flsuterstom, also usualy extirpate is better vs renimator, and also has some uses vs miracles. I usualy dont play both because I have not so much space in my sb.

7 Carpet is not really a great card, I play it if I have free spots in my sb and its like rug, ur, patriot + blade and miracles infested. but most delver decks nowadays play discard and shaman. So carpet is not good. I usualy side it in for petals.

Thats it

[Manipulato]

How strong do you guys find Stifle against you? People from the Grixis thread mean that it´s nearly as strong like Flusterstorm against you guys?
And against what do you guys prefer to play, Stifle or Spell Pierce?

Just curious...

[CabalTherapy]

How strong do you guys find Stifle against you? People from the Grixis thread mean that it´s nearly as strong like Flusterstorm against you guys?
And against what do you guys prefer to play, Stifle or Spell Pierce?

Just curious...

Stifle is a joke.
In the context of Grixis Delver, I'd rather play against Stifle because my rituals don't get countered and then I discard it easily with Duress/Therapy. Pierce is ok as well but might be problematic unanswered if we don't have enough
initial mana sources (say only one black land or something like that) Just gimme all the Stifle you have.

Little anecdote: Some years ago in one of our local tournaments I was able to hit 4!! Stifles with one Therapy out of Kai Sawabatrix's hand (he was on 4c Delver back then).

Just let them believe that Stifle beats Storm. :cool:

[nevilshute]

Stifle on our storm card is not that scary for us as, against delver, we are almost always going off with (at least some) knowledge of their hand. Once you know Stifle is there you can often play around it. In that sense you can't even really compare it to an actual counter spell like Flusterstorm because where Flusterstorm can counter Infernal Tutor, Past in Flames or even a bottle-neck Dark Ritual Stifle just sits there in their hand completely useless until you are ready to cast tendrils. If you are winning through Past in Flames it seems very, very likely that you have already cast at least 1 discard spell in the game. That discard spell can be recast after resolving past in flames and that just makes Stifle sad.

If I lose to Stifle it is 9/10 times because they use it on my fetchlands and choke up my mana development. To me, that is often more difficult to play around than stifle on tendrils.

I'd probably rather be playing against Stifle out of RUG than Grixis. Stifle can mean we have to delay going off for one or possibly more turns. If I have to wait against delver I'd prefer to wait against the non-deathrite version of delver.

[davelin]

How strong do you guys find Stifle against you? People from the Grixis thread mean that it´s nearly as strong like Flusterstorm against you guys?
And against what do you guys prefer to play, Stifle or Spell Pierce?

Just curious...

Against bad opponents who hold Flusterstorm until the Tendrils, there isn't much difference between the two. Against good opponents who know how to use Flusterstorm to choke our mana, counter an important tutor card, etc, then Fluster is much much worse.

[Lemnear]

Against bad opponents who hold Flusterstorm until the Tendrils, there isn't much difference between the two. Against good opponents who know how to use Flusterstorm to choke our mana, counter an important tutor card, etc, then Fluster is much much worse.

They should stifle your lands and fluster your rituals/cantrips

[Manipulato]

@Togores: What do you think?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Stifle is not a counterspell. If people try to use it as such, they are going to fail. As such, Stifle is almost always aimed at the Storm player's mana, if played correctly. Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce are sightly more flexible; they can also hit cantrips and hard business spells. Flusterstorm for Tendrils is only slightly more relevant than Stifle for Tendrils. Usually, when that happens, it's because Top is involved.
It's also worth noting that Stifle is easier to play around/overload. With Stifle, you are more likely to end up with more spells than you can cast. Because actual counterspells are more versatile, it's easier to spread them out over the course of a game.
Either card has its uses, which is better depends on the context of your list. Stifle obviously works well in conjunction with Daze and Wasteland. Flusterstorm is great with discard. If your deck uses more mana in your own turn, I usually prefer Flusterstorm. If you have, say Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce in hand and your opponent has one discard spell, you end up with a counter no matter what. If you have Stifle and Pierce, you might Stifle their land and then die. This is less of an issue if you have access to Gitaxian Probe but if you don't, Stifle is incredibly hard to use correctly. You obviously also get that bonus if you have discard, but as I said before, I think with discard Flusterstorm should be your choice.

[Sloshthedark]

"If I was afraid of Stifle I wouldn't play Ant" a friends quote from 2011 - it wasn't really funny when they started to play Snapcaster in Threshold for a short period but I agree with all above... I have a soft spot for the card and the waiting games but other than that I don't care

why are we advising to a guy from the tempo forums btw.:really: :laugh:




[1]How does the 1x Rain of Filth play? Is it worth it over something like a second PiF/Petition or a Top/3rd Preordain?
[2]In what metas is it beneficial to have the second PiF or Tendrils? Or multiple Tops main/SB?
[3]I like how Dark Petition goldfishes, but how frequently do you hit it with an Ad Nauseam? Do you cut the AdN if you want to try two Petitions?
[4]Is Xantid Swarm falling a little out of favor? People seem to not like it against Miracles so much anymore, but isn't it good to have to keep them honest so they keep some removal in?
[5]Dread of Night seems great as a DnT hoser, but is it worth it to try to sneak in some number of Disfigure for versatility?
[6]Is Flusterstorm or Surgical Extraction worth having around as a 1-2 of in the side? Do you add in Fluster against Stifle decks?
[7]Carpet of flowers in against Miracles, cutting Cabal Ritual?


1, I wouldn't play it before 4th CR // those cards serve different purpose, imo no
2, I'm tempted so say All of them, but 2ToA isn't great when you hand is attacked... Tops - slower, plays well with multiple ToA and against discard
3, goldfish and reality are connected but often different things... // dunno as likely as any other card in that quantity // Caleb plays it obv., that's all I can say
4, It was bad and is bad... might be decent after everyone level up, then Miracle guys level up, and after another year the gamble is back... // you keep them honest by not playing it too, with upside...
5, if you aim on D+T specificaly it's your best friend, once opponent starts spitting MM, DRS, Kotr it's rather weak... Gaddock kind of embarasses both DoN and Massacre but I'm on the Massacre side of the dilemma
6, maybe, both have some application, I'd not pack SE though it's very weak and inflexible after T2 // it's a proven tactics of sorts
7, if you have it I'd play it, but I'd never have it as a plan unless heavy on ToA ... imo that's probably the best use out of the card btw. I wouldn't recommend it against any serious tempo player

[Togores]

So, last day I played and got top 8. Loosing in swiss vs grixis delver and eldrazi. Then in top 4 against eldrazi again.
Today I played again and ended 3-2 loosing against 2 eldrazi.
Idk if the deck is good but both they ended 4-1 loosing agains my friend with moat miracles.
But stil, I know its may be over represented because is the new toy. But they do a wining job.
They play:
Chalice
Thorn
Revoker (sometimes)
Trinisphere (sb usualy)
Thought not seer (seize + remove + goyf)
T3 5/5 haste
Ratchet bomb (leds, empty usw)
And wraping wall (this + chalice on 1...)
They just topdeck to hard with a fast clock.

What can we do?
Will it be just the hype deck of the month?
What sb plan we can have? Take out and in?

😪

[Sloshthedark]

So, last day I played and got top 8. Loosing in swiss vs grixis delver and eldrazi. Then in top 4 against eldrazi again.
Today I played again and ended 3-2 loosing against 2 eldrazi.
Idk if the deck is good but both they ended 4-1 loosing agains my friend with moat miracles.
But stil, I know its may be over represented because is the new toy. But they do a wining job.
They play:
Chalice
Thorn
Revoker (sometimes)
Trinisphere (sb usualy)
Thought not seer (seize + remove + goyf)
T3 5/5 haste
Ratchet bomb (leds, empty usw)
And wraping wall (this + chalice on 1...)
They just topdeck to hard with a fast clock.

What can we do?
Will it be just the hype deck of the month?
What sb plan we can have? Take out and in?

😪



I haven't had much time for mtg lately so I haven't played against it yet, only watched people play it online... the deck looks like Mud on steroids, TKS is worse than a Golem because it actively disrupts and isn't artifact as well and the 5/5 which is like a combo finish with the 2/2, most of the cards do something on it's own and have potentionaly 3 zone interaction, the deck is still a bit stupid for legacy standards but the overlap with modern and therefore pseudoaffordability is very unfortunate

things definetely goes worse, I was very happy with multi Tendrils +SDT build against Trinisphere, CoV (which needs time), EtW was always good (but now more raceable)
I've never respected Mud as a deck to consider SB for, is it the case now? maybe, I can't see going deeper than 3 mass bounce/removal, which you play 2 already (Echo and Recall) so it's up to you -

how/why did you lose? what was your deck lacking? (I guess it's a systematic problem not randomness tohrwise you wouldn't ask) btw. were the Eldrazi players good (was it a deck of choice for reasonable people) and which flavour have the played, there is only the 1st tourney on the TCdecks won by +W

[Togores]

I haven't had much time for mtg lately so I haven't played against it yet, only watched people play it online... the deck looks like Mud on steroids, TKS is worse than a Golem because it actively disrupts and isn't artifact as well and the 5/5 which is like a combo finish with the 2/2, most of the cards do something on it's own and have potentionaly 3 zone interaction, the deck is still a bit stupid for legacy standards but the overlap with modern and therefore pseudoaffordability is very unfortunate

things definetely goes worse, I was very happy with multi Tendrils +SDT build against Trinisphere, CoV (which needs time), EtW was always good (but now more raceable)
I've never respected Mud as a deck to consider SB for, is it the case now? maybe, I can't see going deeper than 3 mass bounce/removal, which you play 2 already (Echo and Recall) so it's up to you -

how/why did you lose? what was your deck lacking? (I guess it's a systematic problem not randomness tohrwise you wouldn't ask) btw. were the Eldrazi players good (was it a deck of choice for reasonable people) and which flavour have the played, there is only the 1st tourney on the TCdecks won by +W

Lost to it like duress the chalice out of his shitt hand. He topdecks another and Then a thought not seer.

Other game I poder t1 he drops chalice on 0, then next turn thorn and next chalice on 1 into some eldrazis.

They waste me then drop thought not seer. Removing my tutor.

They drop chalice on 1 revoker on led.

And so on.

I may be unlucky. But if I discard his artifact. They play so many that topdecking the next is easy. And if not they can just race and win t3-4. But g2 our deck is slower due to decays and so. And chalice on 0 and having to destroy it for getting hellbent is hard.

Just hope ppl stop playing it...

[Lemnear]

Lost to it like duress the chalice out of his shitt hand. He topdecks another and Then a thought not seer.

Other game I poder t1 he drops chalice on 0, then next turn thorn and next chalice on 1 into some eldrazis.

They waste me then drop thought not seer. Removing my tutor.

They drop chalice on 1 revoker on led.

And so on.

I may be unlucky. But if I discard his artifact. They play so many that topdecking the next is easy. And if not they can just race and win t3-4. But g2 our deck is slower due to decays and so. And chalice on 0 and having to destroy it for getting hellbent is hard.

Just hope ppl stop playing it...

Maybe time for Teferis Realm lol

[nevilshute]

Hey folks,

Finally, Legacy Leagues is here! I played my first one and recorded the matches. Did decently well. Faced nothing but real decks (Elves, 2x Miracles, Aggro Loam and Grixis Delver).

Check out the videos :smile: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4AffgplSu7so0LFKLh_3i-Q

[Ronald Deuce]

So, last day I played and got top 8. Loosing in swiss vs grixis delver and eldrazi. Then in top 4 against eldrazi again.
Today I played again and ended 3-2 loosing against 2 eldrazi.
Idk if the deck is good but both they ended 4-1 loosing agains my friend with moat miracles.
But stil, I know its may be over represented because is the new toy. But they do a wining job.
They play:
Chalice
Thorn
Revoker (sometimes)
Trinisphere (sb usualy)
Thought not seer (seize + remove + goyf)
T3 5/5 haste
Ratchet bomb (leds, empty usw)
And wraping wall (this + chalice on 1...)
They just topdeck to hard with a fast clock.

What can we do?
Will it be just the hype deck of the month?
What sb plan we can have? Take out and in?

😪

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

Just typed out a whole lot of stuff and my Internet died. Thanks, Obama. :tongue:

The list looks a whole lot like artifact-based prison decks or like red Painter/Dragon-Blood Moon strategies, only replacing Moon effects or Lodestone Golem with Thought-Knot Seer. Seer strikes me as less of a problem than the artifacts: we're on the ropes if they can land a Chalice and a Thorn/Sphere/whatever, so the Seer just finishes what the other stuff started. So this actually looks like less of a problem than MUD or BloodMoon.dec. How did the Eldrazi compare with MUD in terms of speed?

I don't think boarding in green cards like Decay will help if they've got Wasteland and >3-mana beaters. It looks to me like the best strategy is to bring in Empty, Hurkyl's, and Echoing Truth, and to just race. If they shock themselves off their lands, we can always storm for 16-18, and if we can land Therapy we might be able to power through with gobbos.

What's everybody think? Time to bring in a second copy of Hurkyl's?

[nevilshute]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

Just typed out a whole lot of stuff and my Internet died. Thanks, Obama. :tongue:

The list looks a whole lot like artifact-based prison decks or like red Painter/Dragon-Blood Moon strategies, only replacing Moon effects or Lodestone Golem with Thought-Knot Seer. Seer strikes me as less of a problem than the artifacts: we're on the ropes if they can land a Chalice and a Thorn/Sphere/whatever, so the Seer just finishes what the other stuff started. So this actually looks like less of a problem than MUD or BloodMoon.dec. How did the Eldrazi compare with MUD in terms of speed?

I don't think boarding in green cards like Decay will help if they've got Wasteland and >3-mana beaters. It looks to me like the best strategy is to bring in Empty, Hurkyl's, and Echoing Truth, and to just race. If they shock themselves off their lands, we can always storm for 16-18, and if we can land Therapy we might be able to power through with gobbos.

What's everybody think? Time to bring in a second copy of Hurkyl's?

The deck wrecks us, and all the Hurkyl's Recalls in the world isn't going to change that enough to matter. The short answer, I think is, ignore this deck and hope it doesn't break through and becomes widely played and tier one. If it does, though, we're fucked. It is NOT advisable - if you're mostly concerned about winning - to play storm while a deck like this is tier one imo.

[Sloshthedark]

Maybe time for Teferis Realm lol

Don't you worry I'm already on it ; ) but it's probably too slow and inefficient to pull this off


Hey folks,

Finally, Legacy Leagues is here! I played my first one and recorded the matches. Did decently well. Faced nothing but real decks (Elves, 2x Miracles, Aggro Loam and Grixis Delver).

Check out the videos :smile: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4AffgplSu7so0LFKLh_3i-Q

right on time, just when I was wondering what to do next...

EDIT - this batch makes nice case for EtW, sick R1G3, R2G2 the big turn was bold, why haven't you ToAed at the end of it to ged rid of the 2nd Flusterstorm? the situaton isn't great but any mana + discard is live for Pif flashback



The deck wrecks us, and all the Hurkyl's Recalls in the world isn't going to change that enough to matter. The short answer, I think is, ignore this deck and hope it doesn't break through and becomes widely played and tier one. If it does, though, we're fucked. It is NOT advisable - if you're mostly concerned about winning - to play storm while a deck like this is tier one imo.

Painter and Lands wreck it, Miracles will adjust with Blood Moon, Elves can deal with it, PoP is good, which is all acceptable for Ant, metagame will evolve somehow if it's the case, we might lose Shardless, I can't say how challenging is Eldrazi to other midrange, I'd think it is, Tempo might get randomly crushed and lower it's presence... who knows, but I'm sure it will playable with Ant (as it was with Dig, TC, after Miracles, after Thalia, after Snapcaster) there is no easy plan for Ant so far, I just hope with won't get a colorless taxing solution in the next set or things get worse other way in new sets (which probably will)...

[Jonathan Alexander]

2-1 RW Death & Taxes
2-1 Jund
2-1 Elves
2-0 Miracles
1-2 Eldrazi
2-1 Miracles

Ironically, I lost every game one except against Miracles. List felt decent, not sure about Hurkyl's Recall vs. Echoing Truth. If Echoing Truth stays, Disfigure might make the cut over Chain. Kinda want Chrome Mox in there somewhere.


4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dark Petition
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony

//Sideboard:
3 Dread of Night
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Badlands
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Thoughtseize

[Pdingo]

Played also today a 20 men tournament with ANT and top 8ed but lost one time to my friend with eldrazi stompy with white splash. Again in the Semi Final i lost against him.
Two times really close 1:2. The first Match i could win because i made a BS mistake.. But anyway the Semi i lost at least.
It's probably one of the Hardest Match up for Storm Decks.

[Togores]

I do think echoing and chain deserve the same spots on the sb. Playing 4 of this effect is like overkill.

Also from my tests 3 empty are too much and you have to many times 2 in hand with not enougt gas.
Your testing is diferent?

[Togores]

Finaly I got my Legacy storm deck in magic online.

So I hope tomorrow at night (if I dont go watch Deadpool) I will be streaming legacy Ant Nauseam on my twitch acount.

http://www.twitch.tv/togorestcg/profile

Follow and subscribe and so!

[BrettF]

I'm looking for sideboard cards that can be played vs both miracles and also DNT. Is abrupt decay the only one?

[cheerios]

After playing delver decks for most of my legacy career, and sucking hard at playing ANT, I finally managed to top 8 a small tourney yesterday. Thanks to some videos from Jona and Togores, I noticed some of my play mistakes and fixed them accordingly. Here is my list:

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony

//Sideboard:
3 Dread of Night
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Abrupt Decay

Match ups:
Rd1: Junk 2-1
I won game 2 via Ad Nauseam, and game 3 via tutor chain.

Rd2: Dnt 0-2
Kept a 1 lander on game 1. Died to mirran crusader with SoWaP and cannonist on game 2.

Rd3: MUD 2-1
Won via Ad Nauseam on game 1. Died to Thought Knot Seer plus tax effects on game 2. Won via tutor chain on game 3.

Rd 4: RUG Lands 2-0
Won both games via tutor chain.

Rd 5: MUD- ID

Top 8

quarters: Miracles 2-1
Won game 1 via Ad Nauseam. Lost game 2 to leyline of sanctity (LOL!). Won game 3 via natural tendrils.

semis: Grixis Delver 2-1
Won game 1 via past in flames. Got mana screwed on game 2. Won game 3 via tutor chain.

finals: UG infect: split

I might change the rebuild to either a 3rd chain of vapor or gilded drake or an empty the warrens.

Thanks to all the storm gurus for inspiring newbies like me to pursue the storm dream.

Cheers

[Jonathan Alexander]

I do think echoing and chain deserve the same spots on the sb. Playing 4 of this effect is like overkill.

I agree that they do very similar things, but against Aggro Loam, Lands and MUD/Eldrazi, you want like four removal spells after sideboarding. Usually I just bring my four Abrupt Decays and call it a day, but obviously I can't do that here because I'm not playing green. Chain is the leanest answer to most things, but I also want something that deals with Chalice. Maybe it's unnecessary to run another answer to Gaddock Teeg in that slot and I should just replace the two copies of Echoing Truth with Hurkyl's Recalls.


Also from my tests 3 empty are too much and you have to many times 2 in hand with not enougt gas.
Your testing is diferent?

I think Empty is the single best business spell you can draw against the UB/x Delver decks. I always want to draw it against them. I never board more than one copy against any other decks. Maybe it's different with 2 Dark Petition, need to do more testing there. It's basically a completely different deck from what I'm used to playing.



quarters: Miracles 2-1
Won game 1 via Ad Nauseam. Lost game 2 to leyline of sanctity (LOL!). Won game 3 via natural tendrils.


This is the most annoying thing ever and the reason Pascal and I started running Krosan Grips in addition to Abrupt Decay way back when. Lost to it as well yesterday.

[Artemis90]

@Jonathan: why don't you play any green cards in your current list? I mean I agree Swarm and Carpet arent really necessary - but no Decays and Grips for Miracles??

And what about your usual multiple Tendrils approach? Seeing two Dark Petitions in you list makes me feel you changed your mind about the whole grinding plan > tutor-focused plan thing?

Please give a little explanation to you new choices!

[Jonathan Alexander]

Rather than posting full tournament reports, I will start sharing my results in a Google spreadsheet from now on. The spreadsheet includes match results, as well as notes on kill conditions and kill turns. I will collect data from all tournaments I play in that exceed four rounds of swiss. Unfortunately, I don't have all of my past notes anymore, so for now it's just yesterday's MKMSeries trial. Here's the link, let me know what you think:

Storm Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SJHWNW0-kGLjJDyJmR7BbOn6yMrcBuF6awtQUqoR3qw/edit?usp=sharing)



@Jonathan: why don't you play any green cards in your current list? I mean I agree Swarm and Carpet arent really necessary - but no Decays and Grips for Miracles??

And what about your usual multiple Tendrils approach? Seeing two Dark Petitions in you list makes me feel you changed your mind about the whole grinding plan > tutor-focused plan thing?

Please give a little explanation to you new choices!

These are not really choices, I'm just trying out some things. I'm still not sure about Dark Petition, so I figured the best approach was to test multiple copies. I haven't really liked any of the plans I tried against Miracles recently, so I wanted to see if a completely different approach (10 discard spells) might work out. Yesterday was just a test run, and I'm definitely exploring this list further.

As for the focus on Tutors, I never said either plan was strictly better. It's just that it barely makes a difference which one you have game one (with 3/2 being slightly better against all-counter decks) because most decks don't beat Storm before sideboarding anyway. My problem with maindeck Ad Nauseam in the past was that you're running a 58 card deck and have to put cards in the main that you don't want. With Dark Petition, that's no longer true, so I figured I'd try it again. But I'm still not sure maindeck Ad Nauseam is the way to go.

[Ronald Deuce]

Played three rounds yesterday, and I went 1-2. Hadn't had the chance to practice for almost a week, but I had a couple of CRAZY game 2s (went down to 1 life and then won in both games) in the rounds I lost. Even though I didn't do well, I had an awesome time.

R1: Brave Sir Robin (1-2)
G1: I started off on Underground Sea and he topdecked a Wasteland. I couldn't stick enough mana to open up with a ton of Cabal Rituals. I should've fetched a basic, but for some reason I forgot that Wasteland is a pretty important part of their strategy.
G2: This game was utterly bananas. He landed a Knight and a Scavenging Ooze, started eating my graveyard, and took me down to 4 life. I topdecked a Dark Ritual, the last piece of the puzzle, and went for the combo. He countered my Infernal Tutor, leaving me with six mana, Dark Rit, a bunch of Cabal Rits, two Infernals, and a PiF in my graveyard. No cards in hand. I flashbacked Past in Flames, going down to one black mana. Ooze ate my Dark Ritual, leaving me on one mana with no means to cast Cabal Rit. He almost packed up his cards when I stopped him. Paid life (down to 2!) to flashback Gitaxian Probe. Topdecked a Scalding Tarn. Broke it to go down to 1 and find a land to combo off.
G3: This game was a bit rushed, but I didn't see enough sideboard removal to stop two Knights from beating my face in. Oh, well; win some, lose some, and I've got to learn to think and play more quickly.

R2: Elves (2-0)
I don't remember this match all that well because nothing left-field happened. Game 1, a Deathrite kept eating my rituals and almost kept me off the combo, but I managed to junk his hand so he couldn't put together an Elf chain before I made it to Tendrils. Dark Petition and Cabal Ritual were having some trouble hacking it with nothing in my graveyard, but I think I managed to overwhelm DRS on my combo turn and it worked out. Game 2 I think I drew around 16 cards off AdN and he couldn't stop it [EDIT: I feel like I remember a game in which I had a nutso AdN that found, like, three rituals, a tutor, and an LED in eight or nine cards, but I don't remember whether that was in the tournament or afterward when we kept playing].

R3: Big Bad MUDdrazi (1-2)
G1: Lost the die roll. T1 Chalice on 1.
G2: This was the other nutso game I played. So he lands T1 Chalice again, then follows up with Thorn, then by Reality Smasher the next turn. I played draw-go and prayed he didn't have Thought-Knazi for a bit because I had Hurkyl's Recall in my opener. He took me down to 7 life with lethal on the board, so I EoT Recalled his hate. I couldn't put together enough mana for a tutor chain or PiF, but he had shocked himself down to 16 life off of Ancient Tomb, so I just said YOLO and played AdN with three black mana floating. Drew, I think, Lotus Petal, Tendrils (Yeargh; down to 3 life), Ponder (2 life), and Cabal Therapy (Gut Shot territory). At this point, I was at Storm 3. Played Lotus Petal to cast Ponder. YAHTZEE. Drew Dark Ritual, played it to get to five mana for a throwaway Therapy followed by Tendrils for 16. WHEW!
G3: I kept an okay hand with Echoing Truth in the hopes he wouldn't just land a Chalice on T1. Which meant, of course, that he would. So he did :cry: He also followed it up with a Thorn and a Chalice on 2 to stop Hurkyl's, to which I responded with Echoing Truth on the first Chalice. So I was facing down Thorn and Chalice on 2 without any real options. I went for AdN and I drew a Petition, which I needed to get around Chalice, but I couldn't find any Dark Rituals to power it out.

So here's my analysis of Round 3. It was a really hideous matchup, but at this point I'm not sure whether it's worse than Miracles or Chalice-Goyf. Eldrazi are definitely faster to kill us, but a countertop lock doesn't feel any easier to beat than Chalices and Thorns all over the place. With all that being said, I'm not convinced that we can't beat the Eldrazi unless they land T1 Chalice on 1. That's their best play, and as bad as Thorn, Chalice on 2, and Trini are, I'm not convinced we can't work around those plays if we can get some mana together. Hell; I managed to do it in game 2 and game 3, and I'm Bad at Magic. Thought-Knazi didn't make an appearance, but it still strikes me as an overkill card against us because their other hate pieces are so much more problematic and Smasher hits harder and faster. I didn't anticipate getting hit with Chalice on 2. I expected he'd play it on zero, which could've shut me down completely, but he made the right play because it nulled all my hate cards. It's worth noting that Abrupt Decay would still have been a castable card, but it wouldn't have dealt with more than one of the threats.

I'm going to bring in Empty, Hurkyl's, and Echoing Truth in the future. I think Rebuild might be a good idea because it shrugs off Trinisphere (another card I conspicuously didn't see), but Thorn really hurts it.

So here are a couple of crazy ideas:
—Ignite Memories. This one's a shot in the dark. I noticed two things that made me think it might work, though. First of all, Eldrazi decks' most stable and versatile land shocks every time they use it. Secondly, they're running at a much higher mana curve than most of the decks I've seen in the format without the counterspells and relevant hand manipulation that decks like Miracles or S&T can bring to the table. So though it doesn't solve our biggest problems, it might be easier to blast them off of storm 4 or 5 when we can't cast Dark Ritual. No idea whether this card's worth a slot, but why not test it?
—Devastation Tide. If we can land any kind of one-costed cantrip/SDT on turn 1 (a tall order if we're on the draw), we can stack Tide and still hit three mana to Miracle it against Thorn and Trini before they kill us. It also hits both their artifacts and their creatures. Not too useful against Smasher, but getting a free card out of Thought-Knazi doesn't hurt, either. There are plenty of problems with the card (like not being able to cast it without Miracle and needing to hit Miracle with mana left over to combo), but I'm gonna try it out. We might need to run at least two of these if we aim to topdeck it.

So bad news: Chalice on 1. The good news is that, strong as it is against us and Miracles, I think their deck does pretty poorly against a bunch of other decks in the format, including some pretty terrible ones. Dredge looks like it'll eat Eldrazi for breakfast; Belcher, All Spells, and non-Elves creature decks don't care about Chalice; Pox wrecks stompy decks; and Force of Will is a good card.

[Togores]

Will start streaming legacy storm in a few minutes in my twitch.
Join coment and enjoy!

http://www.twitch.tv/togorestcg/profile

[emidln]

Re: Eldrazi

Splash white for Serenity. H.Recall is foiled by additional sphere/mana denial effects (forcing you into non-optimal casting it (anytime other than EOT) while being vulnerable to Thought-Knot Seer while you get the mana together. The rest of our sideboard was garbage anyway:

2 Green Duals
4 Abrupt Decay
2 White Duals
4 Serenity

This still leaves 3 slots to patch up whatever else you care about. I'd probably have an ETW if I didn't have it maindeck, and would strongly consider either Chain of Vapor or a black sweeper of some sort (Massacre, Toxic Deluge, Dread of Night, Pernicious Deed, although I'd have to be on Misty Rainforests/Verdant Catacombs + a forest in my 75 before I'd consider Deed).

To be clear, we're not boarding 10 cards vs Eldrazi. Decays are for permission+hatebear decks and Counterbalance.

The drawback here is that you don't gain much against tempo decks. My guess is that Tempo is so bad against Eldrazi that it can't adapt properly and gets crushed.

I sorta expect the best Miracles builds to begin running less than 4 CB in the maindeck (although the full 4 in the 75) so they can shift value cards like DSphere. They'll also feature either Wastelands or more copies/ways to find Blood Moon/Back to Basics.

[Miscanthus]

Re: Eldrazi

Splash white for Serenity. H.Recall is foiled by additional sphere/mana denial effects (forcing you into non-optimal casting it (anytime other than EOT) while being vulnerable to Thought-Knot Seer while you get the mana together. The rest of our sideboard was garbage anyway:

2 Green Duals
4 Abrupt Decay
2 White Duals
4 Serenity

This still leaves 3 slots to patch up whatever else you care about. I'd probably have an ETW if I didn't have it maindeck, and would strongly consider either Chain of Vapor or a black sweeper of some sort (Massacre, Toxic Deluge, Dread of Night, Pernicious Deed, although I'd have to be on Misty Rainforests/Verdant Catacombs + a forest in my 75 before I'd consider Deed).

To be clear, we're not boarding 10 cards vs Eldrazi. Decays are for permission+hatebear decks and Counterbalance.

The drawback here is that you don't gain much against tempo decks. My guess is that Tempo is so bad against Eldrazi that it can't adapt properly and gets crushed.

I sorta expect the best Miracles builds to begin running less than 4 CB in the maindeck (although the full 4 in the 75) so they can shift value cards like DSphere. They'll also feature either Wastelands or more copies/ways to find Blood Moon/Back to Basics.

Very interesting idea. Will be trying that out.

On a similar note, I have been experimenting with Seal of Primordium a bit, and have had some success. Still too early to say if it's a good eldrazi solution just yet though.
For reference I am running the 14 land, 2 Dark Petition, 6 discard main build with a current sideboard of:
3-Abrupt Decay
2-Seal of Primordium
2-Empty the Warrens
2-Disfigure
2-Xantid Swarm
2-Chain of Vapor
1-Cabal Therapy
1-Tropical Island

[Plague Sliver]

Wrote a little bit about my initial experiences playing Storm here, back in 2013:
http://writtenbyjames.com/2016/02/22/magic-the-addiction-excerpt-2-storm/

I'd love to get feedback on this writing project, in terms of how well I've described the deck. I'm hoping to describe Storm meaningfully to people who aren't very familiar with it. Some dramatic license included, for sure.


Splash white for Serenity.

The 4x Serenity seems very exciting vs. Chalice decks. Finally, a use for my FBB Tundras!

[Lemnear]

I rather play Trygon Predator than playing 5-color Dual/Fetch manabase

[Ronald Deuce]

I don't understand the use of Serenity. It delays them for a turn, but then it suicides and leaves us with nothing, and it doesn't stop our opponents from just waiting a turn to cast Chalice. So if we aim to play it early, we need two mana on turn 1 (assuming we're on the play or that our opponent doesn't have either Chalice for 0 and Thorn), then we need to power out a win before they get a second turn to just play more hate cards or beaters. If we wait, they'll just start beating and we'll have paid two mana during our main phase without stopping the beaters or freeing up cantrips, Infernal, etc.

Why Seal of Primordium? How is it any better than Echoing Ruin, for instance?

Hope I'm not being too harsh, but neither of those cards looks like it'll do the job to me. Neither handles a T1 Chalice on the right number, and it feels like we can be doing better things for two mana if they haven't locked us.

One thing I will say is that if Eldrazi are that big a problem, but people still want to try Storm, running a fourth color is probably our best option (gross as it is against Wasteland). I don't think white is the color for us, though, because it doesn't offer anything comparable to Abrupt Decay against Miracles. Again, there's a chance I'm missing something, and I'm all for keeping the discussion going, so I'd appreciate any additional info/strategy. I might be missing something, so please do explain if I'm being stupid.

I noticed some Eldrazi-deck discussion that seemed pretty concerned about land destruction. Is there anything that looks like it'd do well to hamstring their lands?

[EDIT: Internet's acting up again. I think the end of my post was cut off earlier.]

[Lemnear]

You can also play Ancient Grudge like in good ol' Vintage to fight the masses of Artifact Hate. There is no reason to Splash a color

[Asthereal]

You can also play Ancient Grudge like in good ol' Vintage to fight the masses of Artifact Hate. There is no reason to Splash a color
Or good old Shattering Spree. :wink:

[Lemnear]

Or good old Shattering Spree. :wink:

I get the sarcasm. Considering the Thorns they play, eot Grudge is valid

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm going to start testing versus Eldrazi with 2x Rebuild, 1x Empty, 1x Hurkyl's Recall, 1x Abrupt Decay, 1x Tropical Island. Was thinking I'd cut 2x Preordain, 2x Duress, 1x Dark Petition OR Infernal Tutor, 1x Ponder.

The Ponder's the toughest card to cut, but I feel like we can't expect cantrips to get us there and I'd rather have Therapies to pick off their most problematic cards on the off chance they don't land a Chalice. If our opponent lands Chalices on 0 and 1 or Chalice on 0 and Thorn, that sets us back, but I'm hoping we can either push through really quickly if they DON'T have a lock (maybe off of gobbos) or hold on long enough to wreck their prison plan with Rebuild et al. Neither Chalice nor Thorn alone is likely to be enough to stop us if we either remove it or just push through.

The Tropical isn't so great, but I feel like hitting land drops is really important if they can Chalice or Thorn on turn 1 (N.B. I'm only playing 14 lands in the main). Abrupt Decay is there in case they can't make a full prison, and the fact that it can't be countered is pretty sweet. I decided against Echoing Truth because it won't help us much if they can land Chalice on 2. I AdN-ed through it Sunday in game 3, but I didn't find the gas to win.

So I've got a couple of questions/conundrums:
—Not sure whether I want to cut Petition or Infernal. I really don't want to cut Infernal Tutor and would prefer to keep it in over Petition (I'm running 2, for the record), but again, Chalice on 2 is a really strong play for Eldrazi. Might not be a problem if we can hit with Rebuild, but I'm not sure and I don't feel too optimistic.
—Would running two Empties and cutting AdN be a good idea?

I just remembered something else from the match I played Sunday that might be important to note: Thorn of Amethyst costs two mana, so if they've got one in hand and a Chalice in play on 2, they can't cast it. Keep this in mind if there's a Chalice on 1 and a Thorn on the field. If they want to hit you with a Chalice on 2, you can Recall their Thorn in response to their casting Chalice and get it stuck in their hand.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I generally board out most of my discard when playing against permanent hate. Especially Cabal Therapy I don't like when I need to cast discard early; you don't get the time to make reads (because you'd be casting it turn one) and relying on Probe is ambitious. Serenity is obviously the effect we want against Eldrazi, but I'm trying to cut down on colours, not run all of them. If you're on green anyway, I think Grudge is a reasonable suggestion, although I'm going to try Hurkyl's first.
Also disagree with the statement that we don't need our sideboard otherwise. That might have been true in 2013, but it no longer is.

[Ronald Deuce]

I generally board out most of my discard when playing against permanent hate. Especially Cabal Therapy I don't like when I need to cast discard early; you don't get the time to make reads (because you'd be casting it turn one) and relying on Probe is ambitious. Serenity is obviously the effect we want against Eldrazi, but I'm trying to cut down on colours, not run all of them. If you're on green anyway, I think Grudge is a reasonable suggestion, although I'm going to try Hurkyl's first.
Also disagree with the statement that we don't need our sideboard otherwise. That might have been true in 2013, but it no longer is.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the use for Serenity. I get that the effect is bonkers against pretty much any kind of prison deck, but losing the Serenity strikes me as a problem. Is the idea to time walk our opponents with it, or is there more to it that I'm not seeing? Also, we shouldn't forget that it is vulnerable to Chalice on 2 if we can't drop it quickly enough.

If you don't mind my asking, what's your current sideboard look like? You mentioned that you were running more discard effects and fewer/no green cards. I'd be interested to see what you had in mind.

I definitely concur that we need additional sideboard options. Lately I've been gravitating toward various forms of bounce/removal. Chain has been stellar in virtually every matchup I've played except for this one, Disfigure is a great card to have around against anybody running small creatures, and Abrupt Decay and KGrip are essential for that one other matchup I can't seem to win without them. I'm also running an Empty, a fifteenth land, and a couple of pieces of mass removal for artifacts at the moment.

[ScottW]

Will start streaming legacy storm in a few minutes in my twitch.
Join coment and enjoy!

http://www.twitch.tv/togorestcg/profile

This is great! Please let us know when you stream again. I'll usually watch in the archive but will try to catch it live if possible.

[Togores]

Ok the stream got saved!

Here you go on the 1st recorded league.

http://www.twitch.tv/togorestcg/v/49667059

I spended the first minutes trying to get an empty. So It starts on min 24:00.

Thoughts?

Also for next time Im trying to hear like not copyright music so that it will not mute me.


----------------------

On the eldrazi thing.

Serenity is quite bad another color, Im sure hurkil is far better.

Also its a really hard matchup. I think is not worth the investment.

fast clock
counters
permanent hate
discard
mana denial
cantrip denial

That makes that for wining at a reasonable state we need:
combo 3-4 cards
hurkil
2-3 lands usual
and a discard for his counter
not get hit by thought not seer

that is more a utopia than a resonable thing. So I think hoping to beat them t1 or t2 is like the real only way. But Im not gonna invest anything only to beat eldrazi. Hurkil might be good, beats lands and other crap decks. not worth...
It can be in the death and taxes slots like this is also an almost non existing deck anymore (at least in europe).

[Sloshthedark]

Thoughts?


Haven't seen many of the actual games but dunno if it's poor software or internet connection but higher resolution would make it much better, also the mic had weird echo while live (maybe you fixed it/different stream as the audio is fine now), so was both hard to watch and listen to

[gibbousm]

So I'm currently building this deck and I have a question.

Assume I'm running a stock list and my sideboard has:
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay

Should I be running Tropical Island or Bayou? Why?

[Togores]

Haven't seen many of the actual games but dunno if it's poor software or internet connection but higher resolution would make it much better, also the mic had weird echo while live (maybe you fixed it/different stream as the audio is fine now), so was both hard to watch and listen to


I have a bad internet. My upload speed is 0,51mbs wich is like the shitt.

I already fixed the sound and the video will be like so now. I will try to fix it in the future.

Thanks!

[Dr_D]

If you don't mind my asking, what's your current sideboard look like? You mentioned that you were running more discard effects and fewer/no green cards. I'd be interested to see what you had in mind.



It's one page back.

[Ronald Deuce]

So I'm currently building this deck and I have a question.

Assume I'm running a stock list and my sideboard has:
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay

Should I be running Tropical Island or Bayou? Why?

If you want to run that set (I'd personally cut Swarm and Carpet and max out on Decay), I'd try to find a way to fit both lands into your main/side. I think having access to multiple blue sources is a lot more important than having access to multiple black sources, so Tropical is definitely more useful. The fetchland suite you're running might impact which one you'd want to play (I run 4 Delta, 2 Tarn, 1 Mire, 1 Strand [only for budgetary reasons]).

With that having been said, I've been running Badlands instead of Volcanic (again, for budgetary reasons) for a while now and I've never felt squeezed.

And thanks, Dr_D!

[Togores]

Just got my second intentional draw to top 8 the bazar of moxen with storm.

There is stream
http://www.twitch.tv/bazaar_of_moxen/

[OlegtheSuper]

Just got my second intentional draw to top 8 the bazar of moxen with storm.

There is stream
http://www.twitch.tv/bazaar_of_moxen/

Gratz!

[nevilshute]

Very well done Rodrigo! Very impressive. Can you post your list?

[Togores]

Thanks guys.
Top 8 lost vs eldrazi, the only deck I dont wanted to play. Dodged it all day...
2-0 eva green
2-0 eva green... Again!
2-1 hight tide
2-0 4 color loam
2-0 shardless bug
2-0 shardless bug
Draw
Draw
Ended 1st
Top 8 eldrazi 1-2

I had lot of luck. I gor t1 kill a lot of time, like:
R2 g1 on play
R4 g1 and 2 g2 he evend discarted from my t1 land rituals nauseam hand the nauseam I brainstormed into nuts and eon t1 again facin thalia t2.
Both shardless bug where turn 2 3 times and one t3.




1 Ad Nauseam
2 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal tutor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian probe
1 Preordain
1 senseis divinf top

3 Cabal therapy
3 Duress

1 Rain of Filth
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Lotus petal

4 Polluted delta
4 Misty rainforest
2 Underground sea
1 Volcanic island
1 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD:

4 Abrupt decay
2 Xantid swarm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan grip
1 Hurkil Recal
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Tendrills of agony
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sensei's Divining Top

[ScottW]

How did you board for Eldrazi and how the games play out?

[Togores]

How did you board for Eldrazi and how the games play out?


Yeah game 2-3 is recorded.
G1 I had like petal 2 tutors 4 lands and mull. Into t1 brainstorm find tutor win. If not duress. Did duress the chalice. Was 3 turns me cantriping he playing dudes. Then he drew a thorn and I lost. G2 I just hurkil his chalice and win. G3 he had t1 thorn. T2 6 power on board. T3 I decay thorn ritual ritual nauseam. With 11 live. No landrop available and 1 petal used. Top 3 cards 2 4 mana spells. Gg.

-1 top
-1 preordain
-3 therapy
+1 echoing
+ 1 hurkil
+1 empty
+2 decay
That I did on the play
But should have made this:
-1 top
-1 preordain
-3 therapy
-1 pif
+1 echoing
+ 1 hurkil
+1 empty
+3 decay

On draw You can do like 1 duress out another decay in. But I think is not really worth.

[ScottW]

Thanks! I watched your game 3 against BUG and loved how you fanned out your graveyard after flashing back pif. Nice touch! That Eldrazi player looked as if he had never played against storm.

[esperr]

So assuming my SB plan can be anything, how is everybody beating miracles?

From my limited experience in the match up I feel like its 45-55 in there favor, but the match up is very play draw dependent. Being able to strip a top before they can play it seems to make all the difference in the matchup, as the CA from being on the draw is largely irrelevant, however it seems like I cant lose games where they cant get a t2 top lock going. Im also running 4 duress 4 therapy MB due to local meta infestation.

[cheerios]

@esper

boarding into grinding station works for me

cheers

[Alakhai84]

Thanks guys.
Top 8 lost vs eldrazi, the only deck I dont wanted to play. Dodged it all day... Congratz man! I've seen your matches live on twitch...that Ad Nauseam turn 2 during round 5 against BUG was awesome...great job man! :)

Some questions... why no Dark Petition? A lot of decklist plays 2 copies of DP...still don't know if it's better or not that normal version with 2x PiF.

Rain of Filth...is it necessary? I mean most of the time it's the 4th Dark Ritual.

I liked no Chain of Vapor in sb...with all these Chalice of The Void at 1 in Eldrazi I think that it's better having Echoing Truth and Hurkyll's Recall to answer those problems. What do u guys think?

[thefringthing]

I ran 2 Ingot Chewer on the weekend as a hedge against Eldrazi. Brought them in against MUD; they were useful in one game but any one-mana artifact bounce/destruction effect would have done just as well.

[nevilshute]

Trying a new 75 to have a better shot at an Eldrazi meta. Of course I didn't get to face Eldrazi once but got to 5-0 a league for the first time!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4B6W68s8tO1ZpiwFuSOrSaF

[skyout]

Congratz man! I've seen your matches live on twitch...that Ad Nauseam turn 2 during round 5 against BUG was awesome...great job man! :)

Some questions... why no Dark Petition? A lot of decklist plays 2 copies of DP...still don't know if it's better or not that normal version with 2x PiF.

Rain of Filth...is it necessary? I mean most of the time it's the 4th Dark Ritual.

I liked no Chain of Vapor in sb...with all these Chalice of The Void at 1 in Eldrazi I think that it's better having Echoing Truth and Hurkyll's Recall to answer those problems. What do u guys think?

I run both the Rain of Filth and the two Dark Petition, and I'm actually running a Rebuild as my mass artifact removal. I think it's better than Hurkyl's Recall because of the ability to bounce your own artifacts for free storm as well as cycle if it isn't a relevant draw.

[Sloshthedark]

Trying a new 75 to have a better shot at an Eldrazi meta. Of course I didn't get to face Eldrazi once but got to 5-0 a league for the first time!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4B6W68s8tO1ZpiwFuSOrSaF

sweet! I had my first encounter today, 2-0 (I ended up on 1 life both games) then 1-1 postboard test games, probably a lucky day I also had some of the most ridiculous wins in a long time

[thefringthing]

No thoughts on Ingot Chewer? Am I just nuts? Stomps Chalice and Thorn at no additional cost.

[ScottW]

No thoughts on Ingot Chewer? Am I just nuts? Stomps Chalice and Thorn at no additional cost.

Check this out:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99294

[Togores]

Here is the video of the last league I played:

http://www.twitch.tv/togorestcg/v/51613050

Ended 4-1 only loosing to our great Nevilshute! The match was another day but I have covered it at the end of the stream.

So enjoy!

[thefringthing]

More incredible tech: give 1 Personal Tutor a try with 1 PIF, 1 Tendrils, 1 Empty. Does pretty cool tricks with PIF and Git Probe.

[nevilshute]

Check this out:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99294

Sphinx of the Final Word! YES! :wink:

[Sloshthedark]

Sphinx of the Final Word! YES! :wink:

new weird tech estabilished :D I also gave it a shot last week in the LGS but sadly we have 0-1 Miracles here atm.. yesterday a Hightide player had 2+ in the SB, beating the lonely Miracles guy to death with 2 of them:really:

[nevilshute]

Sadly, Miracles seems to be switching from the 4x Ponder no legends, to a more legends oriented build with multiple cliques which is annoying

[Sloshthedark]

btw. yesterday's crazy R3G1 against Dredge

G1, - win the roll, mull 5 - 2xLED, 2x LP, Thoughtseize, scry - DR = keep, mull myself 4 by LP+Thoughtseize, play out 1LED ... he does his stuff, I draw DR, pass... he CT me and misses... next turn he has lethal by Flayer of the Hatebound, I topdeck an IT (so the situation is IT, DR, LP, LED; another LED is in play), I have no AdN but 2ToA, 2PiF, EtW in the deck... I found an improbable line to play to and got rewarded, how did I win?:really:



Sadly, Miracles seems to be switching from the 4x Ponder no legends, to a more legends oriented build with multiple cliques which is annoying

I'm a unsure what that means as Legends players are non-existant in my meta, I've played it only ~3 times and dropped Pyroblasts by now, but generaly early discard and G1 should be better, CB worse and Needle should be awesome, G2 everyone has Clique but the Eurolists usualy eschewed Karakas

[Ronald Deuce]

btw. yesterday's crazy R3G1 against Dredge

G1, - win the roll, mull 5 - 2xLED, 2x LP, Thoughtseize, scry - DR = keep, mull myself 4 by LP+Thoughtseize, play out 1LED ... he does his stuff, I draw DR, pass... he CT me and misses... next turn he has lethal by Flayer of the Hatebound, I topdeck an IT (so the situation is IT, DR, LP, LED; another LED is in play), I have no AdN but 2ToA, 2PiF, EtW in the deck... I found an improbable line to play to and got rewarded, how did I win?

What was the opponent's life total?

[EDIT: Did you win on this turn or a subsequent turn?]

[Sloshthedark]

What was the opponent's life total?

[EDIT: Did you win on this turn or a subsequent turn?]

19, this turn

[Seven_six]

btw. yesterday's crazy R3G1 against Dredge

G1, - win the roll, mull 5 - 2xLED, 2x LP, Thoughtseize, scry - DR = keep, mull myself 4 by LP+Thoughtseize, play out 1LED ... he does his stuff, I draw DR, pass... he CT me and misses... next turn he has lethal by Flayer of the Hatebound, I topdeck an IT (so the situation is IT, DR, LP, LED; another LED is in play), I have no AdN but 2ToA, 2PiF, EtW in the deck... I found an improbable line to play to and got rewarded, how did I win?:really:


Here is an unlikely, but doable scenario....
Play Notes B R U Storm
LED, LP->DR - 3 0 0 3
IT -> Probe - 1 0 0 4
- Sac LEDs 4 3 0 4
Probe Top DECK: PIF 4 3 0 5
PIF - 3 0 0 6
FB: Probe Top DECK: CR 3 0 0 7
CR - 6 0 0 8
FB: DR - 8 0 0 9
FB: IT-> IT - 6 0 0 10
IT->ToA - 4 0 0 11
ToA - 0 0 0 12


*edit: sorry for formatting can't seem to get it right...

[davelin]

19, this turn

Play LED, Petal into Ritual (BBB floating, 3 storm)
Cast IT and find Ponder cracking one LED for UUU (BUUU, 4 storm)
Cast Ponder cracking second LED for RRR and find PiF (RRRBUU, 5 storm)
Cast PiF, flashback ritual and Ponder, find and cast LED (BBB, 9 storm)
Crack LED for BBB flashback IT into Tendrils

[Sloshthedark]

Play LED, Petal into Ritual (BBB floating, 3 storm)
Cast IT and find Ponder cracking one LED for UUU (BUUU, 4 storm)
Cast Ponder cracking second LED for RRR and find PiF (RRRBUU, 5 storm)
Cast PiF, flashback ritual and Ponder, find and cast LED (BBB, 9 storm)
Crack LED for BBB flashback IT into Tendrils

bingo!, it was a CR in this case but LED works too

[JamieW89]

The IT->PN line seems to have ~3% to hit (hit PiF in a ponder + hit one of 6 LED/CRit in a ponder and some extra small cases like Pondering into a cantrip into probe into pif and the post-pif probe hitting LED/Crit, whereas the IT -> GP line has a bit under half of that (GP->PiF + GP->+1 Mana OR GP-> IT + GP->LED). Probing into probes into pif/infernal also adds chances. Any other routes?

Anyways, these ridiculous wins when playing towards your outs are among the best things in magic.

[Ronald Deuce]

Anyways, these ridiculous wins when playing towards your outs are among the best things in magic.

A thousand times this.

This is the first deck I've ever played with which I can be at four life, with some hugely overkill amount of lethal staring at me, and I can just topdeck a Swamp and win.

[Sloshthedark]

The IT->PN line seems to have ~3% to hit (hit PiF in a ponder + hit one of 6 LED/CRit in a ponder and some extra small cases like Pondering into a cantrip into probe into pif and the post-pif probe hitting LED/Crit, whereas the IT -> GP line has a bit under half of that (GP->PiF + GP->+1 Mana OR GP-> IT + GP->LED). Probing into probes into pif/infernal also adds chances. Any other routes?

Anyways, these ridiculous wins when playing towards your outs are among the best things in magic.

Maybe more crazy ones feat. GPs, I think the reasonable line to play to starts with a Ponder looking for PiF

what to say, G2 I got LED and DR Therapied T1 and Pif looped on my T2, but it wasn't such cornercase as G1... opponent took it with a smile, I hope I haven't discouraged him from playing Dredge

[Jonathan Alexander]

After having done a fair bit of testing, I've had some ideas regarding Storm, including finally coming to a conclusion about Dark Petition.

#theweeklywars #8 - Storm (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/03/03/theweeklywars-8-storm/)

For those who haven't checked it out yet, #theweeklywars is a weekly series of articles where I note down some of my thoughts. When I learn something about Magic, it tends to end up in there sooner or later. The articles are nothing too formal, just strings of smaller ideas that are usually related through an overarching topic. I also have a full-length article on Storm coming soon, but I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to finish it. I will post it in this thread though.

[nevilshute]

After having done a fair bit of testing, I've had some ideas regarding Storm, including finally coming to a conclusion about Dark Petition.

#theweeklywars #8 - Storm (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/03/03/theweeklywars-8-storm/)

For those who haven't checked it out yet, #theweeklywars is a weekly series of articles where I note down some of my thoughts. When I learn something about Magic, it tends to end up in there sooner or later. The articles are nothing too formal, just strings of smaller ideas that are usually related through an overarching topic. I also have a full-length article on Storm coming soon, but I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to finish it. I will post it in this thread though.

Great read Jonathan. I have a question: with the format becoming less about counter magic and more about permanent hate it stands to reason that - as by a broad generalization - faster combo decks are better than slower combo decks*. So would this not speak towards playing a deck closer to TES rather than ANT?



*Fast = less protection. Slow = more protection.

[PirateKing]

So for the longest time I had a TES deck that I never played, primarily used it as a place to keep my LEDs warm and occasionally loaned to friends desperate to play in a tournament. Then from the Secret Santa last year, I was very kindly sent 4 Beta Dark Rituals and 4 signed Cabal Rituals, so now I guess I have to sleeve up ANT. To do otherwise would be a great dishonor to this awesome gift. I looked an a number of lists that have done well and mashed them up into my preferred iteration. However I'm still unfamiliar with the deeper experience with the deck, and am fearful I could have committed some Storm faux pas and will look the absolute fool in a tournament setting. For reference the list I'd intend to run:

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Rebuild
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens

Any feedback, review or advice would be tremendously appreciated. Thanks.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Great read Jonathan. I have a question: with the format becoming less about counter magic and more about permanent hate it stands to reason that - as by a broad generalization - faster combo decks are better than slower combo decks*. So would this not speak towards playing a deck closer to TES rather than ANT?



*Fast = less protection. Slow = more protection.

I think this metagame pushes us from playing 3/2 to playing with Dark Petition and probably maindeck Ad Nauseam. Also, most importantly with Ad Nauseam, but maybe in general, we are not playing enough copies of Chrome Mox. Maybe two is too many already, but zero copies is almost certainly wrong. Regarding TES, I just don't see the benefit of Rite of Flame. Cabal Ritual provides such clean kills with Past in Flames, whereas Rite only makes Burning Wish less bad.
But as I said in the article, I wouldn't be surprised to see a list more aggressive than Scherer's doing well, and that's already the most aggressive list since Mystical Tutor.


snip

Storm is a highly contextual deck; none of the "big" Storm players run the same list as another. I think there are clear-cut rules for solving certain problems, but most players prioritise these problems differently. For example, in 2013-14, Pascal and I had 4 Abrupt Decay and 2 Krosan Grip, while most other players only had like 3 Abrupt Decay. Same with Dread of Night, it's been ages since I played without it, while most other players prefer less specific cards. On the flip side, I played way less copies of bounce spells other than Chain of Vapor, while many others have played stuff like Rebuild, Hurkyl's Recall or Echoing Truth for a while now.
It's hard to build the deck terribly wrong and there are arguments for almost all versions. Just try out different things and see what works best in the context of your playing experience.

[Ronald Deuce]

I have a question: with the format becoming less about counter magic and more about permanent hate it stands to reason that - as by a broad generalization - faster combo decks are better than slower combo decks*. So would this not speak towards playing a deck closer to TES rather than ANT?

It's interesting; I was starting to get the same feeling regarding running faster decks if we're going to have to deal with people's mulling into T1 Chalice/Thorn.

I've got no experience with TES, but I've finally acquired the pieces I was missing. I was thinking of giving it a try.

What strikes me as a problem is that both AnT and TES seem like, though they CAN win in the first couple of turns, against any kind of interaction—or with a hand that won't get us there quickly enough—it often takes longer. What's kept me from diving into TESting (sorry) has been that I keep seeing matches in which it gets a slow hand and can only pull off a combo at the same speed that we can. So I've got a question for your question: if countermagic is on a downturn and we're worried about MUD-style hate, why wouldn't we just go all-out and play T1 combo instead of either Storm variant?

I'm not trying to shoot down your ideas; I'm really interested in learning more about TES and its comparative strengths and weaknesses, both compared with AnT and with the suicide squad (Belcher, All Spells, PSI), especially if people have some experience trying a variety of these decks and others in the new metagame.

Has Empty the Warrens been faring well? A quick Ratchet Bomb would be a big problem, but if they don't find it, they'll be hard-pressed to stop us from gumming up the board without Batterskulls.

[Patrunkenphat7]

So I've got a question for your question: if countermagic is on a downturn and we're worried about MUD-style hate, why wouldn't we just go all-out and play T1 combo instead of either.

The problem with this way of thinking is that it is a massive overreaction to the meta. Blue decks still dominate Legacy, and both Miracles and Grixis Delver remain two of the most-played decks. That being said, I do think people need to have Empty in their deck now. I've advocated for Empty for a long time, but now is the time to add it if it's not currently in your list.

[Jonathan Alexander]

So far, in my testing with the 2 Petition list, I have mostly found myself tutoring Ad Nauseam due to a lack of red mana. There are other scenarios where you have to get Ad Nauseam because of graveyard hate or whatever, but that's the main reason. I'm not sure Empty over Ad Nauseam makes the deck faster.
That being said, the only matchup where you really want access to Ad Nauseam is Elves, so I don't think it's unreasonable to remove the card entirely.

The idea to make the deck faster and less resilient (to countermagic) is reasonable and in line with the way the metagame is evolving, but there's definitely a limit to how far it should be taken. If your deck can't beat one piece of countermagic, it has no place in Legacy. You don't have to beat much more than that anymore though.

[Artemis90]

I'm not sure Empty over Ad Nauseam makes the deck faster.

Why not both maindeck?

[Jonathan Alexander]

There are limits to how many high CMC cards you can afford to play with Ad Nauseam, especially those that are terrible flips. Ad Nauseam with one each of Tendrils, Past in Flames and Empty already feels shaky without Mox, although I have not seen any real attempts to determine how far you can go.
It would be super interesting to do simulations with big sample sizes for different scenarios (cards left in your deck, life total, cards in hand / graveyard, Storm count) but constructing these scenarios is already so much work, not even counting for the fact that there dozens of combinations that lead to kills. Ad Nauseam is the most complex card I have ever played and nobody comes even close to using the card properly. I have started doing calculations to determine at which point you start revealing cards (cards that kill you when you reveal them vs. additional cards you can see with the cantrips you have) and that's already like 30 spreadsheets worth of data without being finished.

Oh, and I also want to start testing this, but there are not enough tournaments I can reasonably attend right now, maybe some of you guys can make something of it:

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dark Petition
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony

Maybe the Rain should be another Mox; I really want to see how far the deck can be pushed into TES territory without having terrible mana and spells.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Empty is definitely a faster combo than Ad Nauseam but not necessarily a faster kill. This is important when discussing matchups like Eldrazi because you don't need to necessarily kill them turns 1/2, but rather you need to empty your hand before than can lay down their permanent-based hate. Empty is fantastic against Eldrazi because all you need is an LED, a Dark Rit, and an Infernal plus whatever else you have to up the storm and make 10+ goblins.

In the above list I think Rain looks very out of place, and Chrome Mox is poor and unnecessary without AN imo. Also I like 6 tutors, 2 PiF, 1 Empty, 1 Tendrils as the core (Grim is better than Petition if you run Empty).

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think Chrome Mox is the most underrated card for this deck. Also think Empty wants extra fastmana, and I'm definitely not running Rite of Flame. Mox and Rain are the only sensible options; both have their pros and cons.
What makes you think Grim is better than Petition with Empty and why does that one card make such a difference?

Either way, I'm not saying the list I posted is good. It's something I'd like to test but I won't be able to in the near future, so I thought I'd share it, maybe someone else finds it intriguing.

[nevilshute]

I think Chrome Mox is the most underrated card for this deck. Also think Empty wants extra fastmana, and I'm definitely not running Rite of Flame. Mox and Rain are the only sensible options; both have their pros and cons.
What makes you think Grim is better than Petition with Empty and why does that one card make such a difference?

Either way, I'm not saying the list I posted is good. It's something I'd like to test but I won't be able to in the near future, so I thought I'd share it, maybe someone else finds it intriguing.

Wilson can expand here but Grim is better than DP in the scenario where you have the ability to get to 4 mana + LED (IMS, Dark Rit, Cab Rit or IMS, Dark Rit, Petal) because Grim can facilitate Empty in this scenario whereas DP can't be cast at all.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Wilson can expand here but Grim is better than DP in the scenario where you have the ability to get to 4 mana + LED (IMS, Dark Rit, Cab Rit or IMS, Dark Rit, Petal) because Grim can facilitate Empty in this scenario whereas DP can't be cast at all.

Martin is exactly correct. There are a ton of lines that you need to analyze for the comparison between DP and Grim in terms of turn 1 Empty capabilities, but overall the numbers/options favor Grim Tutor in this specific respect. @Jonathan I like your decklist idea as a whole, and I think 7 tutors is worth exploring. I would try to vary the 3 DP numbers with either 2 DP, 1 Grim or 1 DP, 2 Grim, as multiples of either of those cards can be quite poor. Grim is a good tutor to flood on as long as you are flooding with other tutors that are not other Grims - it adds some nice power/flexibility to your combo.

[Ronald Deuce]

Martin is exactly correct. There are a ton of lines that you need to analyze for the comparison between DP and Grim in terms of turn 1 Empty capabilities, but overall the numbers/options favor Grim Tutor in this specific respect. @Jonathan I like your decklist idea as a whole, and I think 7 tutors is worth exploring. I would try to vary the 3 DP numbers with either 2 DP, 1 Grim or 1 DP, 2 Grim, as multiples of either of those cards can be quite poor. Grim is a good tutor to flood on as long as you are flooding with other tutors that are not other Grims - it adds some nice power/flexibility to your combo.

Agreed on all counts.

It's worth pointing out, however, that in spite of the fact that there are four situations in which Grim shines compared with Petition (fast Empty, setting up a combo a turn in advance of firing, finding non-combo cards to pull us out of sticky situations, no spell mastery), it's significantly worse when we're aiming to do an AdN- or PiF-Tendrils combo, both of which are ostensibly what the deck is built to do. I'm not sure deviating from that plan more broadly is a good idea because it's a solid plan against most decks that aren't Eldrazi or Miracles; we might risk losing a lot of matches that used to be in our favor.

Maybe I'm just newbing it up, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to run AdN and Grim together. If we AdN into both Infernal AND either Grim or Petition, we're taking a big hit (bigger on Petition), but bleeding 6—or worse, 9—in order to combo at all is really bad. It's less of a problem if we can break several LEDs with AdN or Grim on the stack, but that doesn't happen all that often (there's a reason Army of the Damned doesn't get played very much in Burning Wish decks).

I feel like the new meta won't necessarily require a whole load of restructuring, but it might make a few builds suffer, at least for the time being. We either need to go really quickly or have answers to at least one (often two) artifacts just to pull off a combo, and I'm not sure we'll have the life or the time to count on AdN or Grim-for-disruption. I also don't think the multi-Tendrils plan is all that useful in this matchup unless we can hope to cast more than one on separate turns, and I don't think that's feasible with 8-12 lockdown artifacts lurking. I think it's pretty imperative to run at least one (I'd prefer more at this point) non-Infernal tutor in the deck because Chalice on 2 shuts us down if we don't.

With all that having been said, I still think Ad Nauseam is worth keeping in the 75, probably the main, and I'm interested in trying Jonathan's build if I get the chance soon. Extra Petitions [EDIT: 3] is a plan I felt too scared to try before, but it might be a good way to get around those damnable Chalices. I didn't play AnT last week, but the week before I managed to pull off two combos in three games against Eldrazi, winning one game and digging to death in the second, even with hate artifacts on the board at the opponent's EoT. In game 2, I hit everything I needed off of AdN after EoT Hurkyl's, and in game 3 Infernal was locked by a Chalice and I didn't have the life to dig enough mana to combo. Petition wasn't live without more mana than I could find, but Grim would've straight killed me even with a better set of AdN flips.

I'd love to hear what people think of using Empty instead of AdN. I like them both, but I feel like they are so different in cost, effect, and situational utility that I'm reluctant to cut AdN preboard.

[CabalTherapy]

Agreed on all counts.

It's worth pointing out, however, that in spite of the fact that there are four situations in which Grim shines compared with Petition (fast Empty, setting up a combo a turn in advance of firing, finding non-combo cards to pull us out of sticky situations, no spell mastery), it's significantly worse when we're aiming to do an AdN- or PiF-Tendrils combo, both of which are ostensibly what the deck is built to do. I'm not sure deviating from that plan more broadly is a good idea because it's a solid plan against most decks that aren't Eldrazi or Miracles; we might risk losing a lot of matches that used to be in our favor.

Maybe I'm just newbing it up, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to run AdN and Grim together. If we AdN into both Infernal AND either Grim or Petition, we're taking a big hit (bigger on Petition), but bleeding 6—or worse, 9—in order to combo at all is really bad. It's less of a problem if we can break several LEDs with AdN or Grim on the stack, but that doesn't happen all that often (there's a reason Army of the Damned doesn't get played very much in Burning Wish decks).

I feel like the new meta won't necessarily require a whole load of restructuring, but it might make a few builds suffer, at least for the time being. We either need to go really quickly or have answers to at least one (often two) artifacts just to pull off a combo, and I'm not sure we'll have the life or the time to count on AdN or Grim-for-disruption. I also don't think the multi-Tendrils plan is all that useful in this matchup unless we can hope to cast more than one on separate turns, and I don't think that's feasible with 8-12 lockdown artifacts lurking. I think it's pretty imperative to run at least one (I'd prefer more at this point) non-Infernal tutor in the deck because Chalice on 2 shuts us down if we don't.

With all that having been said, I still think Ad Nauseam is worth keeping in the 75, probably the main, and I'm interested in trying Jonathan's build if I get the chance soon. Extra Petitions [EDIT: 3] is a plan I felt too scared to try before, but it might be a good way to get around those damnable Chalices. I didn't play AnT last week, but the week before I managed to pull off two combos in three games against Eldrazi, winning one game and digging to death in the second, even with hate artifacts on the board at the opponent's EoT. In game 2, I hit everything I needed off of AdN after EoT Hurkyl's, and in game 3 Infernal was locked by a Chalice and I didn't have the life to dig enough mana to combo. Petition wasn't live without more mana than I could find, but Grim would've straight killed me even with a better set of AdN flips.

I'd love to hear what people think of using Empty instead of AdN. I like them both, but I feel like they are so different in cost, effect, and situational utility that I'm reluctant to cut AdN preboard.

Chalice on 5 and your precious DP is worthless as well. :cool:
Jokes aside.

Your points are perfectly fine, however, your view on certain concepts of the different styles of ANT is limited in your depiction. For example, you state that the "multi-Tendrils" approach is not good against specific opponents implying that builds with two ToA are slower than other with 1 and 1 AdN. Well, there might be some truth about it in certain situations but what you're missing is the fact that more Tendrils allow for higher chances to go for a fast PiF-loop because a flashbacked Infernal could then go for LED to play ToA from the grave. That is also true for a second Past in Flames.

I have to support P7 here because he is right about EtW. I used to dislike this card but like it in my setup right now. Consequently, Grim is also better with EtW main and AdN side because as alrady mentioned previously, it searches EtW off one ritual and plastic mana in play.

[Patrunkenphat7]

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-gotten Gains

This is my test list for the current meta. I haven't played a single game with it, but I'm thinking about both sleeving it up today and throwing it together online. Some of the notable changes to my usual list include discard for more diverse targets, 7 tutors, and only 1 PiF main (to make room for 7th tutor). The Ill-gotten Gains SB plan is also there to help with speed against Eldrazi and also comes in against decks like D+T, Elves, Burn, and Storm mirror. I can't say whether or not this is good yet, but I will keep the thread posted with results and changes. Also I finally purchased a new computer that I will be able to begin streaming on starting in a week or two - pumped about that!

[Jonathan Alexander]

I guess I just misunderstood. I thought you were saying Grim should be played over any copies of Petition with Empty and no Ad Nauseam. A split might make more sense than running Petition only. Grim has always been awful in my testing, but I've never been in a situation before where I thought maindeck Empty was the way to go, which it actually might be right now.

Regarding the list above, how do you feel about eight cantrips? I always felt the sweet spot was somewhere between nine and ten. Do the extra tutors make up for them? The thing I like most about the 2 Petition list is how consistently it kills on turn two or three, and cantrips seem to play a big role there.

[ScottW]

So many interesting and diverse lists!

I'm most surprised at your discard P7. I'd think you'd want to max out on cabal therapy with empty main. What's your reason for this?

[Patrunkenphat7]

Regarding the list above, how do you feel about eight cantrips? I always felt the sweet spot was somewhere between nine and ten. Do the extra tutors make up for them?

I am a proponent of more tutors and less cantrips in general because it makes the deck faster while not necessarily sacrificing consistency since the tutors can also act as cantrip-like utility. Sometimes the slower hands play out where your extra tutor is an expensive "cantrip" that gets another mana source - like on turn 2 Infernal is able to get what you need for the turn 3 kill. In my above list it seems you would need to cut one of the tutors and either a land or discard spell to add 2 Preordain, and I'm just not a fan of the cuts. Note that I do cut the 2nd Island when boarding against decks where explosiveness is your number one goal, but against several tier 1 strategies mana development is the most important aspect of the game.

@Scott: The Therapy/Empty synergy is fantastic, but my thinking behind this is that the hate in the meta feels pretty diverse right now, and Therapy is your worst disruption in a diverse format. It's the best card against Delver decks, but I would rather have more consistent discard against Eldrazi, Miracles, and D+T. We'll see how it goes though. My personal "core" discard is 4 Duress, 3 Therapy main and 2 Tseize, 1 Inquisition SB. Whenever I deviate from that one way or another it's because of a big meta shift.

[JamieW89]

I decided to run a UBw list at a small event today, as it has been ages, and I've always been a chant fan. 7 chants main, 1 Top, 2 DP, 1 EtW. Postboard 3 Serenity (for the MUD player, and Eldrazi), and notably no green (usually little to no miracles). Ran really well (a disproportionate amount of turn-2 protected kills and some good matchups) but ended up losing to Eldrazi in an anticlimatic final.

Round-1: Dredge 2-1 1-0
Chant is pretty sweet here, win quite easily. I do kill myself with AdN in g2, would you guys continue at 3 and/or 2 in this scenario: 0 floating, infi mana and wincons revealed from AdN but no LP. Oppo is on a combo oriented dredge list including some Bloodghasts, and he had been chantwalked on his turn-2 and 3. Do we flip for 7 (LP, and 2nd LED would have turned PiF on) outs or do we pass and let them go absolutely insane with 3-4 lands and multiple drawspells? I flipped and died. Extirpate won g3.

Round-2: Miracles 2-0 2-0
Sigh, I am not prepared for this >.< I ponder, and he opens on a top. I can then chant on my turn-2 (catches a force), followed by some rituals and an LED (with 2 cards behind; a DP and IT), he tanks for a while and forces the LED (putting me on discard+tutor after seeing the white, don't like the play). Several turns later I brainstorm into 2 chants and win through his hand of FoW, Counterspell, U card.
Goblins win game-2.

Round-3: Elves 2-0 3-0
Game-1 I chantwalk a but into a tutor chain (despite multiple Shaman activations).
Game-2 I have a turn-1 (Land,DR,DR,DP->LED,IT + 2nd land/Chain in opener and draw the 3rd DR to make it lethal)

Round-4: Grixis Delver ID 3-0-1
Round-5: Eldrazi ID 3-0-2

Quarterfinal: Infect 2-1
I lose game-1 in the following spot: Opponent has no interaction but he does have lethal next turn. I can go for a PiF with 2 Probes, 2 cantrips and a petal open for DR+IT by flipping top into a land, or I can look at 2 new cards with top and potentially win or end up with the PiF line with a cantrip less. (alternative: silence oppo in upkeep and hope he doesn't respond, he seemed weak enough) I topped (3 lands) and came up short with my probes & cantrips.
I mull to 5 in game-2 but squeek out a win somehow after he opts to not play Null Rod (wanted a clock) and I can Ad Nauseam with 0 floating, it gets there.
Game-3 he missplays his daze, and I need a playable card from Ponder, which hits.

Semi-Final: Miracles 2-1
Another miracles players, le sigh. Game-1 I have a turn-2 with chant backup (and he doesn't force, which would have given him a random draw with top for the 2nd force, but I agree on not forcing).
Game-2 he has top into balance but I have LED,LED,LED,LP,IT with a PiF on top (I have SDT out also). He blindflips a land though, and I can't beat the lock with mana open.
Game-3 I can make 12 goblins after a turn-2 chant (he had 1 fow, and correctly doesn't force), and he starts digging a lot. His final ponder ends up shuffling and drawing a terminus (he had top so one deeper would have worked). Lucky me.

Final: Eldrazi 0-2
Game-1 I keep an unexciting LP, CR, IT, BS, PN, 2 Lands. I ponder into another IT+CR and keep so I can win around Chalice@1. He leads some dork though, so I brainstorm on turn-2, and chant his upkeep. He opts to wasteland me rather than keep Warping Wail mana open so I assume he doesn't have Wail. I brainstorm again into 2 lands+chant so I can't win because of hellbent/mana issues. I upkeep chant again, and combo on my turn.. into the warping wail he had. I don't like this play of wasting but it worked here (I'd have had a chant protected kill with 1 mana more).
Game-2 I mull to 5 and die hopelessly. Where were you, Serenities/fast hands :(?

[nevilshute]

Very nice Jamie. Would you mind posting your list?

[JamieW89]

Very nice Jamie. Would you mind posting your list?

Sure, with the disclaimer that I don't suggest anyone playing UBw as I feel the discard lists are simply better. And the same goes for cutting green, although it is possible to run green in this list if you'd want to.



Jamie Westlake
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Silence
3 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard
3 Serenity
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Defense Grid
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Leyline of Sanctity

[Entreat_the_Beedrills]

Will someone help me by telling me what they think about siding choices with ANT vs Eldrazi?


4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining top

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Disfigure
2 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island

I am thinking:

-4 Therapy
-2 Preordain
-1 Island
-1 Ad Nauseam

+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Rebuild
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Empty the Warrens

Is Duress stronger than Therapy in this matchup, or am I doing it wrong? Does it seem like I'm siding in too much or even siding in/out the right cards? I'm not sure how well this works, as I'm sort of new to the deck. Thanks! :D

[thefringthing]

4 Infernal Tutor, 1 Personal Tutor, 0 Dark Petition, 0 Grim Tutor was fine this weekend at GP Detroit.

The Eldrazi menace is real, though.

[Ronald Deuce]

Will someone help me by telling me what they think about siding choices with ANT vs Eldrazi?...I am thinking:

-4 Therapy
-2 Preordain
-1 Island
-1 Ad Nauseam

+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Rebuild
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Empty the Warrens

Is Duress stronger than Therapy in this matchup, or am I doing it wrong? Does it seem like I'm siding in too much or even siding in/out the right cards? I'm not sure how well this works, as I'm sort of new to the deck. Thanks! :D

Looks not too far off of what I'd do in this matchup. The main thing is that I don't think siding in that many answers is going to help as much as siding in around 5 cards because some of those options are a bit slow and discard still helps if they're not on the play. I didn't face the Eldrazi yesterday, but I was thinking of siding like this:

+1 Tropical Island
+1 Abrupt Decay
+2 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Empty the Warrens

-2 Duress
-2 Cabal Therapy
-2 Preordain

This would leave me with 12 cantrips (incl. Probe), 2 Therapy, 0 Duress, 6 ≥4-cmc spells, 15 lands. Another possibility would be to cut either Infernal Tutor or Ad Nauseam for another Decay, but AdN saved me before. Unfortunately, we need to have at least one Petition/Grim in case of Chalice on 2. Another thing I was kicking around was replacing a Petition and an AdN with two copies of Empty.

I wouldn't bring in many green cards because of the threat posed by Wasteland. That might be a good reason to increase the land count to 15, which is what I'm planning to do next time I face the Menace. An extra land will also help us pull out our three-costed spells without being able to use rituals. Abrupt Decay doesn't help that much if they can land more than one hate piece. The good thing about it is that it punches through Chalice on 2, so it's probably worth putting in one or two copies. I'm predisposed not to like Echoing Truth simply because it won't stop Chalice+Thorn, but I don't have a lot of experience with the matchup.

Thorn is pretty bad for us if we want to run KGrip or Rebuild, but I don't see a lot of options for us if we don't run 3-cmc spells for getting around Chalice. Chalice on 2 might not stop us dead, but it shuts off Infernal, Cabal Ritual, Hurkyl's, and Echoing Truth. Anyone have testing data to contribute?

The Duress versus Cabal Therapy argument essentially revolves around how likely you think you'll be to know/anticipate what's in their hand. I prefer to have Therapies because of the likelihood that we can hit multiple copies of a problem permanent, but it does rely rather heavily on Gitaxian Probes if we're not sure what we're facing, and if they have varied hate, we won't get all of it unless we either flash it back or draw multiple copies. My gut says that blind-naming Chalice with Therapy is the best call because it's their most problematic card for us. The advantage of Duress is that we get to take any one of their problem permanents regardless of whether we get to peek first. So it's great if they don't have a stacked hand, but it's worse if we T1 Duress and see 2 Chalices. I think the jury's still out at this point.

[iatee]

I'm not a Storm player, but has anyone given any thought to playing Ingot Chewers vs Eldrazi? Stealing tech from Vintage doesn't seem like the worst idea in a Shops-esque meta.

[davelin]

I'm not a Storm player, but has anyone given any thought to playing Ingot Chewers vs Eldrazi? Stealing tech from Vintage doesn't seem like the worst idea in a Shops-esque meta.

It's not bad but pretty narrow. After 4 Abrupt Decays, 1-2 copies of Recall/Rebuild, including an additional 1-2 cards in the board just for this matchup may be diluting the SB too much.

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm not a Storm player, but has anyone given any thought to playing Ingot Chewers vs Eldrazi? Stealing tech from Vintage doesn't seem like the worst idea in a Shops-esque meta.

The thought had crossed my mind. I don't know, though; we don't have the same ability to power it out and get the 3/3 out of it before they'll have 4/4s or 5/5s, and we need access to red mana even for the evoke cost. Chalice is also restricted in Vintage, but Legacy allows quads.

I guess that if people aim to go for the point-kill plan over the mass-bounce/removal package (i.e., Hurkyl's, Rebuild, or maybe Serenity, Shatterstorm, or Pernicious Deed), Chewers are probably better than anything else we can run. Can't be countered by any feasible Chalice, works around Thorn, and doesn't get totally hosed by Trinisphere. But I think there are three types of hands we'll face from the Eldrazi: ones with no hate-artifacts (we just go for the combo), ones with a single hate-artifact (we play around it or we lose), or ones with multiple hate-artifacts (we try to remove them all or combo through one or two, in which case we probably lose). I don't think it's unreasonable for an Eldrazi player to mulligan until they hit at least one Chalice or Thorn against us, but if we're anticipating a low threat-density, Chewer seems good. I just think they can field a larger number of hate pieces than we can disrupt with a piece of spot removal (especially if they board in Trinispheres, which, fortunately, yet for reasons unclear, they don't seem to be doing very much at the moment).

It seems to me that we'd be best served to run Rebuilds, perhaps with a singleton Hurkyl's Recall. Rebuild only really has trouble with Thorn, but it's unaffected by Trini and it's hard to stop with Chalice. Being able to main-phase it and bounce our own mana artifacts Chain-style seems great, though I don't think we're likely to develop the mana to optimize the play (i.e., play artifacts during our main phase, play Rebuild, play artifacts again for storm count). One line that occurred to me a while back was to play out our mana artifacts early if we've got Rebuild in hand, ideally circumventing Chalice on 0, then Rebuild during their end step to play our artifacts during our following turn without resistance.

If anyone's testing the Ingot Chewer strategy, I'd be interested to hear results. Seems like we'd need a Volcanic and a Badlands to make it happen consistently, though, and I would rather have something to cut through multiple hate cards in one fell swoop without relying on our sparsest maindeck colored sources.

Davelin, I'm starting to wonder whether it might be worth it to make more space in the 'board for the Eldrazi. Eldrazi's hate package has some similarity to fringe decks that have been a Thorn (lol) in our side for a while (MUD, "Punishing Blue," other stompy decks), and aside from Tropical, 4x Abrupt Decay, KGrip, Disfigures, Chains, and an Empty the Warrens, there's room for experimentation, I think.

[nevilshute]

I'm not a Storm player, but has anyone given any thought to playing Ingot Chewers vs Eldrazi? Stealing tech from Vintage doesn't seem like the worst idea in a Shops-esque meta.

If you aren't running Ad Nauseam I think it's a fair call. It has a clear edge over instant/sorcery answers when facing Thorn specifically where as against Sphere and Chalice I'd rather have Hurkyl's Recall tbh.

I'm actually considering going up to three HRs if Eldrazi is here to stay as a new mainstay. If that's the case then I'm also opting to play Ad Nauseam in the main and as such adding some number of Chewers seem like a big cost.

[Jonathan Alexander]

But I think there are three types of hands we'll face from the Eldrazi: ones with no hate-artifacts (we just go for the combo), ones with a single hate-artifact (we play around it or we lose), or ones with multiple hate-artifacts (we try to remove them all or combo through one or two, in which case we probably lose).

Exactly this. It's usually not that hard to beat one hate piece, but the issue comes when they have multiple things. If it was a case of "they always have exactly one piece of hate", boarding removal would be a luxury (this is not always entirely accurate, but some things are really easy to beat). Thus, if I feel I have to dedicate cards to the matchup, I'm running a card that not win-more. (If I have spot removal and kill their one thing with it, I'm likely winning anyway.)


If you aren't running Ad Nauseam I think it's a fair call. It has a clear edge over instant/sorcery answers when facing Thorn specifically where as against Sphere and Chalice I'd rather have Hurkyl's Recall tbh.

Yeah, if you're looking for spot removal against artifacts, Chewer probably is the best, but as I said, I don't think it's the effect you want.


I'm actually considering going up to three HRs if Eldrazi is here to stay as a new mainstay. If that's the case then I'm also opting to play Ad Nauseam in the main and as such adding some number of Chewers seem like a big cost.

I'm not even sure Ad Nauseam is better against them than Empty, but it's highly likely you want one of the two in your maindeck right now.

[nevilshute]

Exactly this. It's usually not that hard to beat one hate piece, but the issue comes when they have multiple things. If it was a case of "they always have exactly one piece of hate", boarding removal would be a luxury (this is not always entirely accurate, but some things are really easy to beat). Thus, if I feel I have to dedicate cards to the matchup, I'm running a card that not win-more. (If I have spot removal and kill their one thing with it, I'm likely winning anyway.)



Yeah, if you're looking for spot removal against artifacts, Chewer probably is the best, but as I said, I don't think it's the effect you want.



I'm not even sure Ad Nauseam is better against them than Empty, but it's highly likely you want one of the two in your maindeck right now.

Running a list with both atm. Am reasonably happy. (3-3) vs Eldrazi currently. Not that that really says much

[CabalTherapy]

Exactly this. It's usually not that hard to beat one hate piece, but the issue comes when they have multiple things. If it was a case of "they always have exactly one piece of hate", boarding removal would be a luxury (this is not always entirely accurate, but some things are really easy to beat). Thus, if I feel I have to dedicate cards to the matchup, I'm running a card that not win-more. (If I have spot removal and kill their one thing with it, I'm likely winning anyway.)



Yeah, if you're looking for spot removal against artifacts, Chewer probably is the best, but as I said, I don't think it's the effect you want.



I'm not even sure Ad Nauseam is better against them than Empty, but it's highly likely you want one of the two in your maindeck right now.


From what I saw online (haven't played against this deck in paper yet) after testing with a friend, a fast EtW is the best play because they cannot beat it preboard. Postboard is another thing, but still EtW remains a good option.
He played Chalice, Thorn, Wails main and Trinisphere + Surgicals!!! from the SB. It felt horrible at some point but manageable if they have only one piece as you've mentioned.

It seems to be one of those coinflip MUs we all love...

[iatee]

My thought process is:

Vs t1 Chalice or Thorn, Chewer is a t1 response, which means you get a t2/t3 to sculpt your hand / very likely win. Unlocking your 1 mana spells immediately is really big. I think a random 6 card plus Chewer hand vs a random 6 card plus prison card Eldrazi hand probably favors the Storm player.

I kinda expect 4 Chalice / 4 Thorn builds to be the norm. Hitting multiple pieces of hate and the mana to cast them will be relatively rare overall if they're only playing 8. You probably lose to multiple pieces of hate, even with 'the right answers' in your deck, because you don't really get to do anything until you have the answer, so even if you have Rebuild and hit all your mana, you haven't been able to sculpt your hand and need to have just naturally drawn a powerful hand on top of the Rebuild.

Also TKS is as likely to be paired with one of these hate pieces as a 2nd hate piece - TKS takes your answer, but won't get Chewer.

That said, I think the g1 for this match up is probably so unfavored that spending too many SB slots on this matchup might be a losing proposition overall (even with 4 Chewers, you're likely not to have one in hand g2 or g3) and the real answer might just be 'hope to dodge the Eldrazi games until they ban Chalice for warping the legacy meta'.