[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Megadeus]

Probably going to pilot ANT in Nashville next weekend. You guys think a 16 can trip version will be okay with the new Spirit of the Labyrinth being a thing that will certainly be tried?

I was thinking:
4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Perordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal

4 Infernal Tutor
1 PiF
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils

3 Durress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Gemstone Mine

SB:
1 Karakas
3 Dread of Night
1 Tendrils
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Thoughtseize

A tweak on the list that did well in Orlando. Not sure though if I wanted Dread of Night or Massacre. Massacre can stop an opposing SFM or TNN or something else, but DoN can drop on T1 and just keep everything off of the board.

[Patrunkenphat7]

^Why are you running 2nd Tendrils in the board?

[jtos84]

The force of wills were good in some games, but it is not consistent enough. After that I tried a burning wish package, and that wasn't doing it either. The really tough matches are MUD and Team America. Two Lim-Dul's Vaults have been really good though. I have been trying to work on a s/b that can deal with the metagame after Spirit of the Labarynth is legal. So far this is what I have come up with:

/ Sideboard
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Ignorant Bliss

[Final Fortune]

Biggest argument against Ad Nauseam in ANT in my mind is that you have to use Duress over Thoughtseize, having outs vs Goblins just means we need a Cabal Therapy in our graveyard while allowing a Meddling Mage or Vendilion Clique to resolve is just GG. Plus it makes Deathrite Shaman less annoying, and I'm sure we're going to be seeing loads of Thalia, Guardian of Thraiban and Spirit of the Labyrith here shortly.

If Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens are pretty equivalent as the second win condition, I'd rather play the one that lets me play with better disruption.

[Megadeus]

^Why are you running 2nd Tendrils in the board?

It gives you the option of boarding it in and firing off a weaker tendrils against like a tempo deck and buy more time. I think it should probably be an empty the warrens though

[Patrunkenphat7]

Biggest argument against Ad Nauseam in ANT in my mind is that you have to use Duress over Thoughtseize, having outs vs Goblins just means we need a Cabal Therapy in our graveyard while allowing a Meddling Mage or Vendilion Clique to resolve is just GG. Plus it makes Deathrite Shaman less annoying, and I'm sure we're going to be seeing loads of Thalia, Guardian of Thraiban and Spirit of the Labyrith here shortly.

If Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens are pretty equivalent as the second win condition, I'd rather play the one that lets me play with better disruption.

There are some pretty huge differences between AN and Empty… Like AN is great against Miracles where Empty is terrible; Empty is great against RUG Delver where AN is terrible. There are lots of differences besides the type of disruption you can run. That being said, I do agree that Empty lets you run better cards in your deck. I run comfortably play 2 Grim Tutors which helps the consistency of both PiF and Empty.

[Tammit67]

Been doing a lot of testing with Ant this past week so i don't feel incompetent with it. List for reference:

4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
1 bloodstained mire
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
3 duress
3 cabal therapy
1 thoughtseize
1 grim tutor
4 infernal tutor
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
2 preordain
1 tendrils of agony
1 past in flames
1 ad nauseum

SB:
3 dark confidant
1 massacre
2 pyroclasm
1 empty the warrens
2 chain of vapor
3 xantid swarm
3 abrupt decay

Was beating up on Thalia decks despite them resolving the card, the sideboard is ok against them if they aren't dedicated against us. Ant's ability to win through Thalia is nice.

A friend on RUG was at first destroying me in postboard games after bringing in 2 graf cage, 2 fluster, x pyroblasts, 2 rough//tumble. I was running a lot of my discard into his soft counters though and the matchup improved after I slowed down. I could have also punished his boarding out of all the bolts by bringing in swarms, which I'd certainly try in an event after seeing those many cards postboard and still all the creatures in game two. Empty was useless.

Which leads me to my main point: I don't think Empty is a good postboard plan right now: There are a only a few decks currently that it is traditionally good against and a lot of those decks (along with the rest of the meta) are trying to answer elves/death and taxes/true name nemesis and are running someway to invalidate the tokens.

So that would free up a sideboard slot of another engine/finisher type card. I'm really thinking about doubling up on either tendrils or past in flames since they are pretty valuable cards to draw in certain matchups. Leaning towards the past in flames with all the delver decks around, but if I suspect more controlling decks, the tendrils is fine as well.

Thoughts?

[Lemnear]

Matt, EtW isn't good as a post-SB option but very good pre-SB in spot of the Ad Nauseam. The gameplan of Grinding Station aka several Tendrils and/or PIF wasn't any good in my lastest testing. MB EtW as SB Telemin is my current choice.

[Tammit67]

Matt, EtW isn't good as a post-SB option but very good pre-SB in spot of the Ad Nauseam. The gameplan of Grinding Station aka several Tendrils and/or PIF wasn't any good in my lastest testing. MB EtW as SB Telemin is my current choice.

There are too many discard decks running around me that I'm willing to drop the ad naus. Telemin is interesting.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Empty seems kind of weak in this deck? It seems like TES is more naturally better suited to take advantage of Empty since they are a turn faster than us. It may just be my bias. I don't like the card in general, seems totally beatable even without spash hate. I've beaten Belcher's T1 Empty by just playing creatures and blocking them into oblivion until I was able to stabilize.

EDIT: The point I was trying to make is that this deck seems too slow to take advantage of Empty. The deck operates on being able to sculpt resilient hands, which comes at the cost of speed more often than not. It seems like Empty is pretty bad against many decks past Turn 3.

[practical joke]

There are too many discard decks running around me that I'm willing to drop the ad naus. Telemin is interesting.

Wait what?

during the time that the majority of the meta consisted out of pure attrition wars as a comboplayer ( tempo decks, Team America and 12 discard rocklists and the like), this card was the deciding factor.
so if you are so scared of cards getting discarded that means they must be good.

Yes PiF is good in the attrition war, but it still costs quite some time to set it up.

However, this ad nauseam card wins straight up ( well, you can flip yourself to death, but you get the idea) if you properly protect it with brainstorm and continue to keep it on top of your deck.

[Mindlash]

Wait what?

during the time that the majority of the meta consisted out of pure attrition wars as a comboplayer ( tempo decks, Team America and 12 discard rocklists and the like), this card was the deciding factor.
so if you are so scared of cards getting discarded that means they must be good.

Yes PiF is good in the attrition war, but it still costs quite some time to set it up.

However, this ad nauseam card wins straight up ( well, you can flip yourself to death, but you get the idea) if you properly protect it with brainstorm and continue to keep it on top of your deck.

I guess this is one of the reasons he doesn't want to drop it from his deck.

[cheerios]

Do you guys think it's a good idea to swap 3 xantid swarms for 3 bobs? I think there's a huge chance to see a rise in gbx to combat TNN. I haven't gotten my bobs yet so I need some opinions.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Sloshthedark]

Matt, EtW isn't good as a post-SB option but very good pre-SB in spot of the Ad Nauseam. The gameplan of Grinding Station aka several Tendrils and/or PIF wasn't any good in my lastest testing. MB EtW as SB Telemin is my current choice.

actually I have this ready for the GP Paris... the design is pre-SoL, I haven't had time for Mtg after its release.. played GP Prague Sideevents with this into 3:0 +split with CB player and disappointing 4-3 (empty luckpool+some poor decisions in earlier matches) btw. If you ever find yourself in a GP run by Gordian knot games definitely play Golden Rush events - we split ~400$ cards+boosters in 2 people which is equal to 7-0/6-1 in the main Legacy sideevent

the second ToA Plan is influenced by Hanau decklists and excuse to not buy 2nd Grim Tutor + it has some synergy with Bolts & "manplan" ... I like to experiment, my final version may differ as I get to test more vs SoL decks and BURG next week, URG Thresh MU feels very good, I'd like a 7th discard spell... I can't say much about the Sulfur Elementals, haven't really used them much, just chumping MM, I'm tempted to drop a AD and Karakas, might be all AD and a land for something... dunno yet I'm too far ahead of myself

Grim fullmoon UBer Storm

2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

61


SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

[CabalTherapy]

3 Lightning Bolt


Prepare for deckchecks.

[Sloshthedark]

Prepare for deckchecks.

6 months = 0 problems, 0 deckchecks on BoM / GP sides /larger tournaments ... LGS do no care

[nevilshute]

Do you guys think it's a good idea to swap 3 xantid swarms for 3 bobs? I think there's a huge chance to see a rise in gbx to combat TNN. I haven't gotten my bobs yet so I need some opinions.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

I can't imagine a meta without a significant portion of decks with islands. Which is what it would take for me to consider such a swap. Three Xantid Swarms are side board slots that I wouldn't tamper with. If you want to try the bobs I'd suggest picking something else to remove. I've tried two swarms at one stage, but ended up moving to three as they are just extremely effective against a lot of blue matchups imo.

I tried a board with both three swarms and four bobs. Now whether or not the number should have been three or four bobs is irrelevant as I ended up removing them altogether. My reasoning:

Bob is best against decks with a discard strategy. The most prevalent of those decks - at least where I play - is Jund, a deck that is likely to be running 2-4 Lightning Bolts and 2-4 Lilianas in games two and three. That's enough removal to invalidate Bob. Other discard strategies like Pox is likely to run too much creature removal post board too.

I initially thought he'd be good against combo decks as well, and against the mirror, and perhaps that's true sometimes. But when you look at it, he's a two drop that doesn't gain you any card advantage until two turns after entering the battlefield. That's too slow a lot of the time against another combo deck.

As much as I love a resolved Bob I've opted against him.

[kiwi]

Do you guys think it's a good idea to swap 3 xantid swarms for 3 bobs? I think there's a huge chance to see a rise in gbx to combat TNN. I haven't gotten my bobs yet so I need some opinions.


I think that is better to play xantid swarms, in the match ups that dark confidant is good ad nauseam also is good, and dark confidant hasn't got too sinergy with ad nauseam, xantid swarms are gold vs show and tell and merfolks.

[cheerios]

I can't imagine a meta without a significant portion of decks with islands. Which is what it would take for me to consider such a swap. Three Xantid Swarms are side board slots that I wouldn't tamper with. If you want to try the bobs I'd suggest picking something else to remove. I've tried two swarms at one stage, but ended up moving to three as they are just extremely effective against a lot of blue matchups imo.

I tried a board with both three swarms and four bobs. Now whether or not the number should have been three or four bobs is irrelevant as I ended up removing them altogether. My reasoning:

Bob is best against decks with a discard strategy. The most prevalent of those decks - at least where I play - is Jund, a deck that is likely to be running 2-4 Lightning Bolts and 2-4 Lilianas in games two and three. That's enough removal to invalidate Bob. Other discard strategies like Pox is likely to run too much creature removal post board too.

I initially thought he'd be good against combo decks as well, and against the mirror, and perhaps that's true sometimes. But when you look at it, he's a two drop that doesn't gain you any card advantage until two turns after entering the battlefield. That's too slow a lot of the time against another combo deck.

As much as I love a resolved Bob I've opted against him.

Good point. I might just resort to an additional Ad Naus or just try muliganning for fast hands.

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[Tammit67]

Wait what?

during the time that the majority of the meta consisted out of pure attrition wars as a comboplayer ( tempo decks, Team America and 12 discard rocklists and the like), this card was the deciding factor.
so if you are so scared of cards getting discarded that means they must be good.

Yes PiF is good in the attrition war, but it still costs quite some time to set it up.

However, this ad nauseam card wins straight up ( well, you can flip yourself to death, but you get the idea) if you properly protect it with brainstorm and continue to keep it on top of your deck.
Perhaps you misunderstood; I do not want to drop the card for those reasons.

I guess this is one of the reasons he doesn't want to drop it from his deck.

Exactly.


I'm a proponent of bringing in the bobs against the esper stoneforge lists too, not just mirror/jund/junk discard strategies. Certainly not for show and tell (where you'd want swarm and chain). Not a huge fan of the 3 thoughtseizes I had there before, so I swapped them for dark confidants

[Dark Ritual]

I actually liked confidant in the sneak and show matchup (call me crazy.) The reason I could justify it was because in a grindy game it is insane and if nothing else it flashbacks cabal therapy, which is also quite good as you don't want them to put a griselbrand into play or spaghetti. That was when I had bob in my board though and I have since dropped bob from the board entirely. Xantid swarm is absurd though and probably my favorite card in the board simply because of how good swarm is against miracles and especially sneak and show so they can't just jam a show and tell for fear that you'll drop a xantid swarm/trump their show and tell drop and kill them when you untap.

Ad nauseam is too good to cut from this deck. As for your list slosh, I'm seeing NINE protection spells. If you're that scared of spirit of the labyrinth/hatebears I would greatly prefer thoughtseize's 3 and 4 to bolt in those slots and to add an ad nauseam or anything really over the ninth protection spell. 9 protection spells is way too many for this deck especially when we already run 4 probes, which really count as half a protection spell as you know what you have to play through then. Although AdN in your list is pretty bad with 2 ToA and 2 PiF + 1 grim tutor.

I was a big proponent of bringing in bobs in any matchup honestly where your life total did not matter that much or at all simply because most people take out all their creature removal. Decks I didn't like bob against were hatebear decks and delver decks. Loved the card in the esperblade matchup as it just grinded them down to nothing and you won with ease generally. Bob allows you to play the control role a lot more effectively as well so duressing/therapy on batterskull they just tutored or any threat really became a very real line as countermagic in their hand does nothing against an active bob given you have enough time to draw into protection or a natural tendrils/past in flames.

I don't like empty as a sideboard plan right now. If you're that scared of deathrite + discard pitching tendrils board in another tendrils. But deathrite has declined in terms of usage as TNN is the new thing that people are using and most lists with TNN don't run DRS.

[nevilshute]

I actually liked confidant in the sneak and show matchup (call me crazy.) The reason I could justify it was because in a grindy game it is insane and if nothing else it flashbacks cabal therapy, which is also quite good as you don't want them to put a griselbrand into play or spaghetti. That was when I had bob in my board though and I have since dropped bob from the board entirely. Xantid swarm is absurd though and probably my favorite card in the board simply because of how good swarm is against miracles and especially sneak and show so they can't just jam a show and tell for fear that you'll drop a xantid swarm/trump their show and tell drop and kill them when you untap.

Ad nauseam is too good to cut from this deck. As for your list slosh, I'm seeing NINE protection spells. If you're that scared of spirit of the labyrinth/hatebears I would greatly prefer thoughtseize's 3 and 4 to bolt in those slots and to add an ad nauseam or anything really over the ninth protection spell. 9 protection spells is way too many for this deck especially when we already run 4 probes, which really count as half a protection spell as you know what you have to play through then. Although AdN in your list is pretty bad with 2 ToA and 2 PiF + 1 grim tutor.

I was a big proponent of bringing in bobs in any matchup honestly where your life total did not matter that much or at all simply because most people take out all their creature removal. Decks I didn't like bob against were hatebear decks and delver decks. Loved the card in the esperblade matchup as it just grinded them down to nothing and you won with ease generally. Bob allows you to play the control role a lot more effectively as well so duressing/therapy on batterskull they just tutored or any threat really became a very real line as countermagic in their hand does nothing against an active bob given you have enough time to draw into protection or a natural tendrils/past in flames.

I don't like empty as a sideboard plan right now. If you're that scared of deathrite + discard pitching tendrils board in another tendrils. But deathrite has declined in terms of usage as TNN is the new thing that people are using and most lists with TNN don't run DRS.

I agree with this, but will say that against Esper, Bob actually also functions to blank their hatebears to an extent. I'll also just generally agree with you that Esper is a matchup where Bob is probably at its strongest because of how little pressure they are usually able to apply to our life total. If they drop a Meddling Mage or a Canonist and we drop a Bob then they have to choose: attack into our bob and risk trading, in which case they are unprotected on the board. Or sit back and keep their bear alive while we just draw 2 cards every turn. That's a situation we are going to come out profitably most of the time.

[Firebolt942]

Hi guys! I've been lurking on this thread for awhile and finally decided to make an account for some help on my sideboard since I do not feel like my local community can help me as much as it used to. My list for reference:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain

4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Blood Stained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrubt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Karakas <-- I never board this in
1 Telemin Performance <-- Narrow, maybe it should be something else
3 Thoughtseize <-- Thinking about carpet of flowers. Usually for tempo matchups. Maybe not cut all of them?
1 Empty the Warrens <-- Not that helpful I feel like it should be something else but I don't know what

Yeah this is the list that was top 4ed Indy. It was me. Considering adding another AN and a Chrome Mox to make T1 AN more likely and successful. I feel like speeding up post board can be helpful sometimes instead of just answering the hate. On the flip side if I am just going for a little more speed why not play TES. Any tips?

[jtos84]

I'm having the same thoughts you are about speed and TES. When I saw your list top 8 I started testing with it, and the additional discard was spot on. I have been trying all types of main deck and s/b options. I think going after the opponents hand instead of protecting your own with ignorant bliss is working better for me in this meta game. Coupled with dark confidant that strategy has been effective. As far as speed goes I have been using a Lim-Dul's vault. It definitely wins some games. I have also started testing with a mox diamond in an attempt to smooth out certain draws.

Just from online play, I notice that ANT is really hard to be consistent with when the top decks are Team America, RUG, and Miracle Control. When players upped the spell pierce count to four things became a little more difficult. I'm hoping some new cards will bring the meta back into ANT's favor. I do think TES is probably well positioned though.

[anakyn]

Just from online play, I notice that ANT is really hard to be consistent with when the top decks are Team America, RUG, and Miracle Control. When players upped the spell pierce count to four things became a little more difficult. I'm hoping some new cards will bring the meta back into ANT's favor. I do think TES is probably well positioned though.


I have the opposite feeling about ANT and TES to be honest: I think in the actual meta ANT is better positioned.

We fight soft counters like Pierce much better than TES for example. (by the way: the only deck having upped the Pierce count is Patriot; other decks like RUG / BURG are playing less Pierces and more Snares)
We have a better tempo matchup because of our resilience to both Wasteland and Daze / Pierce.
Also having Tendrils as primary win condition in place of Warrens is a big advantage in a meta saturated with -1 -1 effects to fight TNN.
And Past in flames loops helps against Control too.

From my testing, ANT > TES against tempo and control, while TES > ANT against discard and combo.
Since Jund is declined in popularity and tempo keeps rolling, right now I take ANT.

[BrettF]

From my testing, ANT > TES against tempo and control, while TES > ANT against discard and combo.
Since Jund is declined in popularity and tempo keeps rolling, right now I take ANT.

I agree with this fully. I have a much harder time beating wasteland+daze decks with TES. I would say i feel 45% VS them with TES. With ANT i get more like 55-60% vs waste/daze decks.

The biggest draw to playing TES is you gain percentage against the other combo decks much more.

Additionally, i don't play ANT unless im happy with my sideboarding in each matchup. If i feel like i can't deal with something properly i play TES since you don't need to SB too much and can silence-walk past hate.

[jtos84]

I have the opposite feeling about ANT and TES to be honest: I think in the actual meta ANT is better positioned.

We fight soft counters like Pierce much better than TES for example. (by the way: the only deck having upped the Pierce count is Patriot; other decks like RUG / BURG are playing less Pierces and more Snares)
We have a better tempo matchup because of our resilience to both Wasteland and Daze / Pierce.
Also having Tendrils as primary win condition in place of Warrens is a big advantage in a meta saturated with -1 -1 effects to fight TNN.
And Past in flames loops helps against Control too.

From my testing, ANT > TES against tempo and control, while TES > ANT against discard and combo.
Since Jund is declined in popularity and tempo keeps rolling, right now I take ANT.

I do not play TES, so that is just speculation. I play on magic workstation, so I do not know if they just know what I am going to play and decide to play four spell pierces plus every other counter spell, but all I have seen is counter spells and hymn to tourachs. It makes testing difficult when people fix their deck to beat one player.

[davelin]

I agree with this fully. I have a much harder time beating wasteland+daze decks with TES. I would say i feel 45% VS them with TES. With ANT i get more like 55-60% vs waste/daze decks.

The biggest draw to playing TES is you gain percentage against the other combo decks much more.

Additionally, i don't play ANT unless im happy with my sideboarding in each matchup. If i feel like i can't deal with something properly i play TES since you don't need to SB too much and can silence-walk past hate.

ANT does seem to have to deal with more post-SB hate cards with GY cancellation effects such as RiP and Cage, which TES usually ignores, in addition to the hate bears.

[anakyn]

ANT does seem to have to deal with more post-SB hate cards with GY cancellation effects such as RiP and Cage, which TES usually ignores, in addition to the hate bears.

Very true: TES being almost immune to graveyard hate is a good reason to play it over ANT.

On the other hand, TES being weaker against Wasteland and -1 -1 effects is a good reason to play ANT.

:tongue:


It comes down to playstyle I guess: what I hate most when playing Magic is losing to Wasteland AND being forced to mulligan aggressively (which happens pretty often with TES and pretty rarely with ANT), therefore my preferred choice is ANT.
In addition to this, I really like to win on the spot (Tendrils) instead of waiting a couple of turns after comboing (Warrens) and hoping my opponent doesn't topdeck any solution to my little Goblins.

[Firebolt942]

Very true: TES being almost immune to graveyard hate is a good reason to play it over ANT.

On the other hand, TES being weaker against Wasteland and -1 -1 effects is a good reason to play ANT.

:tongue:


It comes down to playstyle I guess: what I hate most when playing Magic is losing to Wasteland AND being forced to mulligan aggressively (which happens pretty often with TES and pretty rarely with ANT), therefore my preferred choice is ANT.
In addition to this, I really like to win on the spot (Tendrils) instead of waiting a couple of turns after comboing (Warrens) and hoping my opponent doesn't topdeck any solution to my little Goblins.

I've been goldfishing TES a little bit and I can see what you mean. If I were to get wasteland almost anytime it would be huge. Also I don't really draw too much disruption. Which is strange since it plays the same amount as ANT. Eh variance. ANT plays around hate fairly well so with all the hate in the meta it isn't too big a deal. But at the same time optimizing the sb would be an awesome idea.

[Megadeus]

Played a fairly stock list to an unexciting 1-2 finish. I showed my rust with strom combo in round 1 by boarding out my Ad Nauseam vs UW Tempo hate bears. Stripped his hand and went to IT for Ad Nauseam only to remember I boarded it out. Derp. Round 2 was funny, a guy playing some WB Reanimator, Hypnotic Spectre Brew. G1 he goes beggining of the game, WHite Leyline. I can't actually beat that in game! I win thanks to chain of vapor being awesome in Games 2 and 3. He was newer so he didn't understand how some of the interactions worked but he still had fun. Round 3 vs Lands. He T1 decides to port my basic island, and I drop swamp, triple dark ritual, LED, IT and win from there. Games 2 and 3 he gets Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst, and I misplay by bouncing his sphere of resistance to go off, but I forgot I had 2 lands in hand and couldn't quite get hell bent. Cost me the match.

Showed my rust, but I'll be goldfishing and testing for Sunday, and I think with tight play I at least 2-1 tonight, and possibly 3-0.

[Lemnear]

In case I'll miss it later:

Best wishes to all storm-pilots attending GP Paris! @Slosh: beer must wait till BoM, as I can't make it to Paris next week. :(

[anakyn]

I showed my rust with strom combo in round 1 by boarding out my Ad Nauseam vs UW Tempo hate bears. Stripped his hand and went to IT for Ad Nauseam only to remember I boarded it out.

Maybe the "rust" you're talking about is referred to the fact you didn't remember you sided AN out, but the decision itself to bring AN out against tempo seems to me like a good idea.

[Jin Gitaxias]

I have recently cut a preordain for a top in my pretty stock list. Can someone give a quick tutorial on how to play cantrips when you have top in play? I find it difficult to play a cantrip when i can top instead. I use ponder to shuffle if i dont have a fetch but i have no clue what to do with brainstorms and preordains I draw. Thanks!

[Megadeus]

Maybe the "rust" you're talking about is referred to the fact you didn't remember you sided AN out, but the decision itself to bring AN out against tempo seems to me like a good idea.

I agree, abd I don't think I would change my board plan. I just didn't maximize my mana, and if I had, I probably could have won the turn after with a natural chain of IT for IT for IT (I had like triple cabal ritual) for tendrils. I got impatient and got burned

Also my board plan vs it was -4 preordain, -1 AN, -1 duress, +1 empty the warrens, +3 dread of night, +2 chain of vapor. I didn't want to be cold to a meddling mage, hence the chain of vapor. Duress came out because in G1 he played mother of runes, thalia, and stuff. I think however that this match, abd meddling mage seeing increased play in general, is that Massacre > Dread of Night

Edit again, I actually didn't bring in the Empty over duress because I saw stoneforge and batterskull in G1, otherwise I obviously would have gone for that over a weakened tendrils

[Sloshthedark]

In case I'll miss it later:

Best wishes to all storm-pilots attending GP Paris! @Slosh: beer must wait till BoM, as I can't make it to Paris next week. :(

=( that saddens me deeply... and I was hoping HotS Paris takes place...

[Lemnear]

=( that saddens me deeply... and I was hoping HotS Paris takes place...

It's not that i can seriously take any mentionable notes during such tournaments. You saw me taking the usual notes in your match with Kai; those took a while (don't take much longer if I play myself, as i usually write in my opponents turn) and enough people bitched about that during Friday, so I dropped the idea for saturday. :/

[Lemnear]

It's up! Heart of the Storm Vol.6 - New Frontiers @ Eternal Central! Woooooooo! (http://www.eternalcentral.com/heart-of-the-storm-new-frontiers/)

[CabalTherapy]

It's up! Heart of the Storm Vol.6 - New Frontiers @ Eternal Central! Woooooooo! (http://www.eternalcentral.com/heart-of-the-storm-new-frontiers/)

Yes, congratulation... But I don't see a connection between your article and this thread.
It is like posting a UR Delver list in a Burn thread. (Do I exaggerate here? :P)

[JanoschEausH]

UWR Delver
-2 Preordain
+2 Chain of Vapor

RUG Delver // UR Delver
-2 Preordain
+2 Flusterstorm

Sneak and Show // Reanimator
-4 Preordain

-1 Island
-1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Chain of Vapor
+3 Xantid Swarm

BUG Delver

-2 Preordain
-2 Duress
-1 cabal therapy

+2 Flusterstorm
+3 Xantid Swarm

Elves // Jund

-4 cabal therapy
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Chain of Vapor

Death and Taxes

-2 Duress
-2 preordain
-1 Ad Nauseam
-1 Cabal Therapy
+4 Massace
+2 Chain of Vapor

Deathblade // Stoneblade
-2 Preordain
-2 Duress
-1 Cabal Therapy
+3 Xantid Swarm
+2 Chain of Vapor

UW Miracles
-4 Preordain

-3 cabal therapy

+4 Abrupt Decay
+3 Xantid Swarm

Painter's Stone // Staxx
-4 preordain

-2 cabal therapy
+4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Chain of Vapor

What I don't understand:
1) Why do you play 4 Massacre, if you could play 3-4 Dread of Night instead? You seem to board Massacre only against DnT (where you have to board out Ad Nauseam - or you die). Against DnT, Ad Nauseam is your best win-con, since its the fastest... So DoN > Massacre here. Against Esper/Deathblade or Patriot, Massacre is > DoN cuz of Meddling Mage. But you don't seem to board it there (why?)
2) Why Flusterstorm? I would understand it against other Combo (SnT and Elves) but you also seem to board it against Tempo. You can't protect your own combo with it (since you need to discard your hand with LED to give Infernal Tutor Hellbent). In my opinion Surgical Extraction is way more effective on those matchups than Flusterstorm.

Could you explain your choices?

[Lemnear]

Yes, congratulation... But I don't see a connection between your article and this thread.
It is like posting a UR Delver list in a Burn thread. (Do I exaggerate here? :P)

Storm is storm is storm ... Decks are siblings imo, but I remember this post the next time anyone comes around with Burning Wish and advice him/her to get out here and post in the TNT thread instead...

[MTG Junkie]

This is the board I plan on runining at Somerset

4 Swarm
4 DON
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Grim Tutor
1 Empty
1 Tendrils
1 IGG

Playing a Wish build with 1 Bayou main. Id like to fit a Trop in the board but can't decide on what to cut for it.

What do you think?

[DarkJester]

Storm is storm is storm ... Decks are siblings imo, but I remember this post the next time anyone comes around with Burning Wish and advice him/her to get out here and post in the TNT thread instead...

:cool: +1

Oftentimes people refuse to think outside-the-box, but especially in this archetype it is extremely important imo. I remember the old ANT-Thread and a D-Day as Tech against CB :tongue:

[cheerios]

Scrubbed out pretty hard last tourney losing to Team America, TES, Reanimator and MUD. Won only against burn and esper-blade.

[cuthbertthecat]

This is the board I plan on runining at Somerset

4 Swarm
4 DON
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Grim Tutor
1 Empty
1 Tendrils
1 IGG

Playing a Wish build with 1 Bayou main. Id like to fit a Trop in the board but can't decide on what to cut for it.

What do you think?

As someone who's played a lot with wish builds, I would suggest keeping green out of the deck altogether. With the need to actually cast red spells sometimes, it makes your mana way too bad in the matchups where its important, namely against delver decks.

[paeng4983]

@MTG Junkie
cut the Grim Tutor.

[Dark Ritual]

@MTG Junkie
cut the Grim Tutor.

That isn't remotely correct in a burning wish version of the deck. It makes it so wish can find a PiF engine/the primary way you win most games. It seems nightmarishly slow I'll give you that, but what are you running instead?

Don't know how bayou main over trop would ever be right especially in a wish build. Casting cantrips is still vital to ANT's gameplan no matter what build you run and trop does that while bayou does not. All bayou casts is fast mana, tutors not named wish, and discard spells. I prefer to not have my cantrips stuck in my hand due to not having a blue producing land in play. Same reason most people don't run badlands.

Concur with Cuthbert on keeping green out of wish builds. Makes the mana absolutely atrocious. At that point you're far better off with TES.

[nevilshute]

So, with me not going to GP Paris I have a good long while to prep for the BoM in May. I plan on taking ANT - the deck I believe I'm most proficient with - to the tournament and as such would like to already now settle on a few fundamental things.

I've been playing ANT for a little less than a year now and started out playing a version that is close to what is also called TNT, meaning I played with some number (usually 2 or 3) of Burning Wishes and a wish board. About four or five months ago I made the switch to dump the wishes and run a more linear UBr(g) version with no wishes. I'm very satisfied with this and do not wish (:wink:) to go back to the wish build.

So now I'm left to figure out how to best put together a list. A few months ago I ran a list with no Ad Nauseam in the main board, instead running an Empty the Warrens. It worked out fantastically initially. I got a dramatic increase in explosive turn one and two wins. Many times I'd win (defacto - 12 goblins is almost impossible to deal with for most decks if they are dropped before they get their first turn) after probing to see discard, daze/pierce and/or Deathrite Shamans thinking "hmm, good thing I can just make 10 or 12 goblins now and ignore all that shit that's going to become live once I pass the turn". I kept the AN in the sideboard mainly to bring in against other combo decks and discard heavy strategies.

However, after a while I started getting these explosive starts less frequently. I think that, honestly, the deck had probably overperformed a bit and now, variance had caught up with me. It also got me to think, that if what I really craved was more consistent early turn wins-if-there-isn't-a-force then I'd probably be better off playing TES instead. But I'm not familiar with that deck and I think that over a two-day tournament, a deck like ANT with a stronger mid- and lategame plan is probably a better choice... but that's a discussion for another day.

Suffice to say that I've moved the Ad Nauseam back to the main deck. For a while I wanted to have my cake and eat it too and as such played both Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens in the main deck. I think, ultimately, it was too greedy and it just made the AN too fragile.

So I've decided to switch out the Empty and put it in the sideboard. Only now, what to replace it with? A part of me would like to replace it with a Grim Tutor as I think that since I'm removing one business spell I'd be well off replacing it with another. However, I've worried about how much I'm going to be pushing the enveloped in terms of making Ad Nauseam worse.

Here's the list I'm planning on running. I'd love to hear some thoughts on the Grim Tutor / no Grim Tutor part specifically, but also any thoughts on the list as a whole would be great also:


4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Dures
1x Thoughtseize
1x Grim Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ad Nauseam
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Preordain
1x Past in Flames

4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Gemstone Mine
1x Island
1x Swamp

Current Sideboard:


3x Xantid Swarm
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Dread of Night
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Massacre
1x Empty the Warrens


TLDR: I would like to run the Grim Tutor but am worried about its inherrent dissynergy with Ad Nauseam. Do you think it's reasonably to ignore these concerns and run it anyway? If so, why? If not, why not and what would you replace it with?

Anyway input, about Grim Tutor or about the list as a whole, is much appreciated :)

[davelin]

TLDR: I would like to run the Grim Tutor but am worried about its inherrent dissynergy with Ad Nauseam. Do you think it's reasonably to ignore these concerns and run it anyway? If so, why? If not, why not and what would you replace it with?

Anyway input, about Grim Tutor or about the list as a whole, is much appreciated :)

Many successful lists have run Grim Tutor, I believe Jamie runs one in his BOM top8 list. I personally also like Lim-Dul's Vault as the 5th piece of business. With many redundant spells, it usually services as a combination of a poor man's Vampiric Tutor or Doomsday.

[gregtron]

Many successful lists have run Grim Tutor, I believe Jamie runs one in his BOM top8 list. I personally also like Lim-Dul's Vault as the 5th piece of business. With many redundant spells, it usually services as a combination of a poor man's Vampiric Tutor or Doomsday.

I used to run singles of both Grim and LDV, but have swapped them for a second BW and a SDT. I hated Grim every time I drew it, and I never once IT'd for it. LDV was great for finding singleton answers post-board (Massacre, Wish for Pyroclasm, a Duress-effect, etc), but Top does a slightly weaker thing over and over again forever, and makes your fetches and cantrips way better.

[MTG Junkie]

That isn't remotely correct in a burning wish version of the deck. It makes it so wish can find a PiF engine/the primary way you win most games. It seems nightmarishly slow I'll give you that, but what are you running instead?

Don't know how bayou main over trop would ever be right especially in a wish build. Casting cantrips is still vital to ANT's gameplan no matter what build you run and trop does that while bayou does not. All bayou casts is fast mana, tutors not named wish, and discard spells. I prefer to not have my cantrips stuck in my hand due to not having a blue producing land in play. Same reason most people don't run badlands.

Concur with Cuthbert on keeping green out of wish builds. Makes the mana absolutely atrocious. At that point you're far better off with TES.

@ Cuthbertthecat

Iv never liked double Island. Iv alway felt better about the 2nd Swamp. Thats why I play a Bayou main. I do agree that the mana can get clutterd.
How ever its not nearly as bad as you guys think. Game 2 against blue non Waste decks I simply swap the Bayou for a Trop. Against tempo some times i swap a fetch for the Trop or go to 16 lands. Not sure witch one i like best.
I feel the green to be nessary AD kills Med Mage and Swarm provides a Silence affect. Discard just does not go all the way against SaT/decks like SaT.

[sojustcloud]

I used to run singles of both Grim and LDV, but have swapped them for a second BW and a SDT. I hated Grim every time I drew it, and I never once IT'd for it. LDV was great for finding singleton answers post-board (Massacre, Wish for Pyroclasm, a Duress-effect, etc), but Top does a slightly weaker thing over and over again forever, and makes your fetches and cantrips way better.

I've been wondering about having a single LDV in the board to bring in along w/ answers and help dig for that one-of or two-of Chain of Vapours that are brought in, etc.

[Jin Gitaxias]

I'm personally not a fan of LDV to find specific sideboard cards, if I would want that effect I think Grim Tutor is the best effect, I even prefer it over Wish because most of the best sideboard cards are not sorceries. But in testing I found i did not need that effect often so I just play 4 IT and cantrips.

[bondfan]

What are people's opinions on Bayou vs Badlands? I currently run a Badlands as it helps to cast sb options such as Pyroclasm against Wasteland decks. The only time where I would want Bayou would be against Merfolk to help cast Xantid Swarm.

[Patrunkenphat7]

What are people's opinions on Bayou vs Badlands? I currently run a Badlands as it helps to cast sb options such as Pyroclasm against Wasteland decks. The only time where I would want Bayou would be against Merfolk to help cast Xantid Swarm.

Both those duals are wretched, and I would never play either in a million years. Pyroclasm is bad against Wasteland decks anyways because you have to fetch for duals to cast it, and running more duals doesn't make it somehow better against Wasteland. Ergo I would also never run Pyroclasm. You will also be very sad the day that their Mother of Runes counters your Pyroclasm.

[bondfan]

Both those duals are wretched, and I would never play either in a million years. Pyroclasm is bad against Wasteland decks anyways because you have to fetch for duals to cast it, and running more duals doesn't make it somehow better against Wasteland. Ergo I would also never run Pyroclasm. You will also be very sad the day that their Mother of Runes counters your Pyroclasm.

Are you running Massacre instead? My issue with Massacre is that W(x) decks often have Rest in Peace which makes the deck rely more on Ad Nauseam. Pyroclasm has been preforming really well for me recently, not against DnT but against Delver decks. Removing all pressure makes it much more attractive. I agree having to fetch out a dual is awful but so is having 1 Volcanic.

[gregtron]

Both those duals are wretched, and I would never play either in a million years. Pyroclasm is bad against Wasteland decks anyways because you have to fetch for duals to cast it, and running more duals doesn't make it somehow better against Wasteland. Ergo I would also never run Pyroclasm. You will also be very sad the day that their Mother of Runes counters your Pyroclasm.

I think this puts you in the minority. Bayou and Badlands are both fine, depending on what you're trying to do and how. For me, I prefer both over Trop or Volc, as I want my lands to allow me to cast spells in a certain order or together in the same turn, or to be castable after cantripping, and a U/R or U/G dual doesn't really do it for me. Also, Pyroclasm is a really useful sideboard card. I run one copy alongside a single Massacre, and it's been great against random Gaddock Teegs and good D&T players who play out their Karakas and Horizon Canopies to play around Massacre.

[BrettF]

Looks like at GP-Paris Timo is playing the same deck as his last BOM run. Does anybody know how he sideboards with his deck?

The only resource I have is his 2012 article but the deck is wildly different. (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=3216)

[JamieW89]

Kinda failed at Paris today, missing day-2 ;(
R2 Sneaky Show 0-2 1-1
R3 4c Control 2-1 2-1
R4 Death Blade 1-2 2-2
R5 Esper Blade 2-0 3-2
R6 UWR Delver 2-1 4-2
R7 Miracles 1-2 4-3
R8 TES 2-1 5-3
R9 BUG Delver 2-1 6-3

Some interestjng situations, including beating 3 Fow, CS and REB in one turn without a discard spell (and making some silly missplays..)

[DeepDish]

Hey guys. First time I've posted here but I've been reading this thread for a while now. I wanted to post my list that I will be taking to a local 1k guar tournament and see what you guys think. Thanks for the feeback!

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Ponder
1 Past in Flames
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Polluted Delta
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Preordain
1 Tropical Island
1 Grim Tutor
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Dread of Night

[BrettF]

Hey guys. First time I've posted here but I've been reading this thread for a while now. I wanted to post my list that I will be taking to a local 1k guar tournament and see what you guys think. Thanks for the feeback!

List looks solid DeepDish. Would you mind sharing how you sideboard in common matchups?

General statement regarding the ANT thread:
Which business spells and lands you play maindeck is very personal and at this point, not worth debating over. I think if we all focus on perfecting sideboarding with the deck we can make good ground. The deck is so good in almost every game 1, I only feel disadvantaged if i'm not sure what my boarding plan is. I'd love if players just shared their boarding plans for common matchups.

Calling you out, ANT players!

[Sloshthedark]

Right back from GP Paris - 5-0 trial, 7(5)-2 D1, 3-3 D2 missed money in the end =/

the list is not interesting enough to squeeze into the coverage (ok around 50 trials were played) so:

http://imb.lide.cz/lide_photo_big/201402/1806/6c/5302f7206c9571f635910200.jpg?type=fresh

Trials were the same except -1Duress +1Bolt, SB:-2AD +Vendilion Clique +Chain of Vapor

T1
UW Rip miracles 2-0 - his ability to not draw proper lands is the key factor to be honest
Reanimator (with Wastelands, WTF?) 1-2 ... G1 won // G2 blind PiF with 4 GP, 2 BS, Ponder misses // G3 tapped out wrong in crucial turn so I can't win with Extirpate on FoW, he rips reanimate->Iona, I have to extirpate and die to double FoW

T2
UBr Ant 2-0
Sneaky Show 2-0
URw Painter 2-1 G2 keep a potent 2xGPno lander, haven't seen a mana source ever after
SoL Deadguy 2-0
Sneaky Show 2-0 ... G1 I go off through Griselbrand, he thinks too much, counters wrong spell and dies

T3 (for a playmat)
UWr Miracles 1-2 G1 4x discard+no CB=kill // G2 I go off with PiF through counters, he Top-draws a Spell Pierce with my Notion thief in play, I miss it as situation is really complicated and lose thanks this


I'm surprised by number of Combo+Miracles therefore the SB changes, none of the S+T had Leylines


DAY 1
1-0 Bye
2-0 Bye
3-0 2:1 Esper (death)blade, SB feat Meddling Mage

4-0 2:0 UBR Ant G1 fails a Grimtutor loop for 14 storm after I see it comming and ToA for 12, draining himself to 1, I IT -> Bolt him // G2 discard his hand, Thief him, kill him

4-1 1:2 Esper (death)blade G2 mana shy of PiF through FoW, has 1 turn for outs, rips a RiP, I'm forced to EtW which is 1 storm less than needed to race Batterskull and no removal gets drawn

5-1 2:0 "Farmville" Bant Depths - G1 I'm surprised by Flagstones go opening and crop rotate-> tundra+waste but kill him anyway // G2 feats T2 12 Goblins +double CT, he doesn't find outs (Living wish->Peacekeeper) I was more afraid of Tabernacle, which he does not play

6-1 2:0 Elves G1 T1 bolt a shaman, T2 BS->kill // G2 he mulls 5 and similar happens

6-2 1:2 4C Deathblade - G1 I bolt a shaman, despite 2 BS he keeps his Swords in hand for my Delver, lol, you know how this ends...I make my 1st misplay of the day with BS, should have killed him T2, then missboard G2+G3, really did not deserve to win

7-2 2:0 Jund - G1 he starts MFlats -> Swamp->Thoughtseize, wastes my land next turn, I BS in response and kill him T2 // G2 not sure what he plays so I board Karakas+Elementals like vs Deadguy, just to be sure... He has GY hate overkill hand+Sylvan library, I prefer to discard a Thoughtseize, he Sylvan draws himself to 10, storm 5 = no problem... Day 2 hooray!


DAY 2

7-3 1:2 4C death blade - he made top 8, G1 he is well equipped to fight creatures =) I see a MD Zealous Persecution and EE // G2 he opens with Leyline of Sancticity and has Persecution for my 16 Goblins // G3 he keeps Leyline nolander on 6, finds a Tarpit T2, so I extirpate my land to get hellbent my T3, if I draw a manasource = 14 goblins and in retrospect a win ... I draw a therapy... he sticks
DRS, Relic, CS my attempt and here I die...

8-3 2:0 Esper (death)blade some Mtg Madness guy, uneventful

8-4 0:2 UWR Tempo - G1 questionable mulligan choice vs. T1 Delver and no luck // G2 CT your Delver vs. 1st turn Delver, my last turn removal met a FoW

9-4 2:0 Esper (death)blade, Michael Bonde G2 feat. really complicated situation me going off intentionaly into clique... I believe he made a mistake not cliquing me endstep previous turn, he has complicated reasoning why he did not do so... and loses

9-5 0:2 UBR Ant - THE MOST RIDICULOUS pseudoMIRROR EVER ... Oh my, I've lost my pen before the round, It was a lucky pen I guess ... G1 I win the dieroll, I know what he's on, I have a land+therapy+LED+Tutors in my hand.. name a LED, miss, play mine... next 6 turns!!! he draws just lands and petals and can't get hellbent because of it, while I need to draw any land, DR or LP for the kill... i discard his IT, so it's basically monolands control vs 1 land belcher and he keEps on drawing just mana ... this is not even funny... I die around turn 12 BS locking myself twice still on 1 land... for the record my next 4 cards are blanks... ok... // G2 I mull into GP+Therapy+2xLED+IT+land... GP reveals land, rituals, petal, ponder, and GP.. I take a ponder and opt not to play the LEDs as I do not play Ad Nauseam and any of his discard just blanks me anyway... he obv. draws a CT with the Probe... how this continues? - see G1 feat lands on both sides I Extripate his 2 DR in hand early to prevent IT->AdN... after several turns I Pyroblast his ponder, BS lock myself again looking for tutor, Pif, for the kill, ponder or anythink... and die 2 turns later to a topdecked IT...

10-5 2:0 TES ... he has some dice and looks like combo, G1 he's afraid of going of into my Untapped Sea->go, T2 I BS and Tutor chain him // G2 2x TS, 2x CT, LED, Land, BS is fine, he starts with ponder and never gets above 1 card in hand, I EtW to check him every turn and finish with IT-> PiF a turn later... preserving some dignity... still undefeated ANT vs. TES

I obv miss money by breakers, spend more euro on some foil asian shit and go get drunk under the Eiffel tower...


--------------
Found out I'm totally unprepared vs. Esper/deathblade variants, I don't consider it much good, haven't expected it and no one plays it around me, so I lack experience and do not follow builds... I played 6 of them and each was a bit different, shamans/confidants/discard/counters SB Meddling Mages/Extractions/RiP, all different, worst of all I'm not aware of any signs how to distinguish the versions... SB was a real lottery

I'm fairly disappointed, I've won 4 dice rolls in 15 matches and lost 3 of those, I believe I could have played better few times - mulliganing with UWR, SB with Esper Day 1, other than that the decklist surprised me how well it performs in anonymous competitive tournament (my testing last month = few hours of goldfishes + 6-3 vs UBG tempo on the plane)


double ToA >counterspells
double ToA/PiF > discard+shaman+overconfident players
I'm sad Canadian Thresh is so dead =/
0 foil jap ToA in binders

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Slosh! I'm sad you didn't won any money. That's what we phoned about last week, and now I'm even more happy that I stayed at work. (Not that I'd went anyway, you know... travelling, Magic, etc., not my cup of tea.)
Are you satisfied with the build? I still can't get used to the Bolts, but as the DRS, Confidant and esp. Thalia are everywhere, it might be right choice.
I'm surprised that you got so few removal in SB. I think one CoV should be added, but then again, you met no DnT (which is so unexpected), so seems like a good choice.

Nice deck, btw. Except for the Sulfur Elementals. They're so ugly. I wouldn't want them. Never. :wink:

[kiwi]

Sorry guys, the week before of GP Paris, I changed Ant for Team America:cry::cry:. Im my testing Team America destroyed all combo decks including storm, if you can win vs your enemy join in his team, I took TA for the GP ( althought Ant did me the work of won me 2 byes one month ago in a tournament) and I did top 8 in the gp :laugh::laugh::laugh:, of course I was paired in some matches vs combo decks and I won, hymn to tourach is a very powerfull weapon vs combo:mad:.

[Sloshthedark]

Hello Slosh! I'm sad you didn't won any money. That's what we phoned about last week, and now I'm even more happy that I stayed at work. (Not that I'd went anyway, you know... travelling, Magic, etc., not my cup of tea.)
Are you satisfied with the build? I still can't get used to the Bolts, but as the DRS, Confidant and esp. Thalia are everywhere, it might be right choice.
I'm surprised that you got so few removal in SB. I think one CoV should be added, but then again, you met no DnT (which is so unexpected), so seems like a good choice.

Nice deck, btw. Except for the Sulfur Elementals. They're so ugly. I wouldn't want them. Never. :wink:

no, I'm glad I went... The bolts are still great, totally mislead my opps, bought me a lot of time... The metagame was weird, I understand painter did well... I know I will return them ;) has been taken care of online and Toa too, so I'm 2 thoughtseize left from perfection, unfortunately the unbelievable price spike of jap foil xantid swarm made my deck 4, oh, 5 languages, not sure I can live with that... Overall the build is great, i'm 100% satisfied, sb is ok, Elementals underperformed, but I've met 0 thalia and 0 canonists, the rest is 90%, I always had 1 more card to put in and did not want 1 out, 1 cov was a close cut, but I like pyro much better, and 1 elemental is soo random


Congrats kiwi! The choice was good then, looking forward to the report

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Martin, what I meant was that I'm glad that it was me who stayed at home, I do believe you had a good time. And again, congrats on quite solid result.
Why do you want foil Swarms, aren't the non-foil enough? After all, you can't completely foil the deck.

[Sloshthedark]

Martin, what I meant was that I'm glad that it was me who stayed at home, I do believe you had a good time. And again, congrats on quite solid result.
Why do you want foil Swarms, aren't the non-foil enough? After all, you can't completely foil the deck.

Oh sure... I know you hate foil, I hate new border, but find some charm in old foils, and even some new ones... Again it's greed and rarity factor too... Some guy had a "nice" chinese playset, so a went for it after some deliberation ... I have no intention in foiling the deck, I dislike black foils and fetchlands are far far beyond reach for me... I'm not sure I'll look for foil AD, all foil sb might look suspicious to someone

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Oh sure... I know you hate foil, I hate new border, but find some charm in old foils, and even some new ones... Again it's greed and rarity factor too... Some guy had a "nice" chinese playset, so a went for it after some deliberation ... I have no intention in foiling the deck, I dislike black foils and fetchlands are far far beyond reach for me... I'm not sure I'll look for foil AD, all foil sb might look suspicious to someone
Sounds reasonable. Also, your foil Chains look beautiful. Some old foils are really nice.

What surprised me in your list were the Thoughtseizes. I guess they're good without AdN, but still, it's a bit strange card. Also, would you play Inq. of Kozel?

[Lemnear]

IoK can't rip FoW ... that's a no-go

[Grand Superior]

Very nice deck, Sloshthedark! Makes me wish there was a black-bordered Grim Tutor out there. I recently took the $200 plunge and bought a copy for my ANT deck, but it drives me crazy that it's the only non-dual land white-bordered card in the deck (though it is quite the nice looking card).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

IoK can't rip FoW ... that's a no-go

I meant it as an answer to hatebear. Unless I'm mistaken, it was played in sb year or so ago.

[emidln]

Very nice deck, Sloshthedark! Makes me wish there was a black-bordered Grim Tutor out there. I recently took the $200 plunge and bought a copy for my ANT deck, but it drives me crazy that it's the only non-dual land white-bordered card in the deck (though it is quite the nice looking card).


A sharpie and some tape can fix that for you.

[Technicolor Mage]

Get someone to do an alter for you...will look awesome and custom!

[gregtron]

Get someone to do an alter for you...will look awesome and custom!

+1

I've seen a couple of these, and a guy here on the source has gone so far as to alter new-bordered cards to look like old-bordered cards. His Tendrils deck is a work of art, but I can't remember if he posted it in this thread or the pimp thread.

[Lemnear]

While we're at the topic of discard: I'm going to test Hymn to Tourach in place of the Duress/Thoughseize this week in a field with very diverse disruption to make some value trades in attrition wars and wanted to ask the Hive mind about opinions and previous experiences with the card. Thx

[Zombie]

While we're at the topic of discard: I'm going to test Hymn to Tourach in place of the Duress/Thoughseize this week in a field with very diverse disruption to make some value trades in attrition wars and wanted to ask the Hive mind about opinions and previous experiences with the card. Thx

Deck needs more Natural Order.

EDIT: Seriously, though, I'm skeptical. But then again, I've played basically only Elves for a while now, so my touch on Storm is lacking atm.

[Lemnear]

Deck needs more Natural Order.

EDIT: Seriously, though, I'm skeptical. But then again, I've played basically only Elves for a while now, so my touch on Storm is lacking atm.

Need a fresh point of view. I'm burned out by playing TES and the local meta just looks forward to fragile manabases and I don't want these uphill battles atm

[Bed Decks Palyer]

While we're at the topic of discard: I'm going to test Hymn to Tourach in place of the Duress/Thoughseize this week in a field with very diverse disruption to make some value trades in attrition wars and wanted to ask the Hive mind about opinions and previous experiences with the card. Thx

I've thought about it a year ago. I had a "4 Bob plus, 4 Hymn" side in mind, but that's about it, I never forced myself to test it. I think that Hymn is bad in Storm, but surprise us!

[Final Fortune]

Has anybody playing the Pre-Ordain or Lim Dul's Vault versions ever tried Impulse? I figured the dig 4 and "scry" justifies the 2 mana cost, I really dislike Grim Tutor and Burning Wish so I've been looking at other options lately. I'll probably stick with Pre-Ordain, but I thought if Lim Dul's Vault was playable than Impulse probably fits the bill too.

[emidln]

Has anybody playing the Pre-Ordain or Lim Dul's Vault versions ever tried Impulse? I figured the dig 4 and "scry" justifies the 2 mana cost, I really dislike Grim Tutor and Burning Wish so I've been looking at other options lately. I'll probably stick with Pre-Ordain, but I thought if Lim Dul's Vault was playable than Impulse probably fits the bill too.

Online I'm now playing 0 Preordain, 1 Grim Tutor, 1 SDT, 1 Chain of Vapor, 3 Duress, 4 Cabal Therapy.

I'm running Dread of Night in my sideboard now.

[Patrunkenphat7]

While we're at the topic of discard: I'm going to test Hymn to Tourach in place of the Duress/Thoughseize this week in a field with very diverse disruption to make some value trades in attrition wars and wanted to ask the Hive mind about opinions and previous experiences with the card. Thx

This seems pretty crazy. I think we care about 1-2 cards in the opponent's hand on average, and if their hand is loaded with hate, they'll just hit it with soft countermagic like they would a 1-mana discard spell (but now you are timewalked on turn 2 with some number of nonbasic lands in play). Playing Hymn carries the following negatives:
-Slows down kill
-Makes you fetch a nonbasic
-Doesn't always hit the 1 or 2 cards you need to hit
-Is easily Dazed and Spell Pierced
-Is very difficult to cast as part as the combo turn

Positives:
-Might mise the 2 good cards you care about in your opponent's hand

[nevilshute]

This seems pretty crazy. I think we care about 1-2 cards in the opponent's hand on average, and if their hand is loaded with hate, they'll just hit it with soft countermagic like they would a 1-mana discard spell (but now you are timewalked on turn 2 with some number of nonbasic lands in play). Playing Hymn carries the following negatives:
-Slows down kill
-Makes you fetch a nonbasic
-Doesn't always hit the 1 or 2 cards you need to hit
-Is easily Dazed and Spell Pierced
-Is very difficult to cast as part as the combo turn

Positives:
-Might mise the 2 good cards you care about in your opponent's hand

Pretty much agree with this analysis. I'd add to the list of negatives that it doesn't give you perfect information. If you Hymn an opponent with a 6 card hand and you are able to grab a Spell Pierce and land, how do you move on from there? He still has 4 cards in hand. Do you play aggressively now and assume he doesn't have a force + blue card? I think in most cases I'd rather be one mana richer and be able to cherry-pick the most troublesome card in my opponent's hand as well as know that the coast is clear.

[Lemnear]

This seems pretty crazy. I think we care about 1-2 cards in the opponent's hand on average, and if their hand is loaded with hate, they'll just hit it with soft countermagic like they would a 1-mana discard spell (but now you are timewalked on turn 2 with some number of nonbasic lands in play).

I Wish that was the case. At times I saw 3+ counter in opponents hands after they dropped a Delver and it's just fucking annoying to make it through such a hand without the ability to generate cardadvantage. I'm well aware of the Wasteland-Topic however ... It was just an idea, I wanted to try the upcoming tourney(s) to see if it's a total brainfart or not (aka IF I can make it to a tourney which I did not the whole month so far...)

[Sloshthedark]

I Wish that was the case. At times I saw 3+ counter in opponents hands after they dropped a Delver and it's just fucking annoying to make it through such a hand without the ability to generate cardadvantage. I'm well aware of the Wasteland-Topic however ... It was just an idea, I wanted to try the upcoming tourney(s) to see if it's a total brainfart or not (aka IF I can make it to a tourney which I did not the whole month so far...)

Game me a minute pause, but came with the same arguments as mentioned above, the biggest for me is information, it turns precise play into lottery, i'd MD creatures before that, as a spicy SB choice seems better but still not that hot, you can just play single discard 7-10 or Confidant to net you card advantage... In your case I'd start with 2nd Pif instead... Ehh I'm slowly getting to my list... Anyway I'm interested in your take on Ant, PM me if you don't mind

[anomie-p]

I finished building ANT last month (my wife got me the 4x LED, 3x Infernal Tutor and 4x Cabal Ritual I needed to finish it out for me on my birthday), I ended up building it right before a legacy event at my LGS, pulling cards out of my legacy binder and sleeving them up right before the event.

I won my first match without having played or even goldfished the deck (and then promptly went 1-2, 0-2, 1-2 in my next three matches, because I am a terrible player)

I've been traveling on a business trip since then but am pretty excited to get home tomorrow, get my hands back on my new deck and run through some of the goldfishing, etc. suggested in some of the links on the OP. This is a very nice thread :)

[nevilshute]

I finished building ANT last month (my wife got me the 4x LED, 3x Infernal Tutor and 4x Cabal Ritual I needed to finish it out for me on my birthday), I ended up building it right before a legacy event at my LGS, pulling cards out of my legacy binder and sleeving them up right before the event.

I won my first match without having played or even goldfished the deck (and then promptly went 1-2, 0-2, 1-2 in my next three matches, because I am a terrible player)

I've been traveling on a business trip since then but am pretty excited to get home tomorrow, get my hands back on my new deck and run through some of the goldfishing, etc. suggested in some of the links on the OP. This is a very nice thread :)

That's some awesome birthday present! Hope you have fun playing the deck :) I started playing it around 7-8 months ago and the first month or so (depending on how disciplined you are and how many games you can manage to clock) will be littered with hard lessons and mistakes. But once you get through that the rewards really come :)

[Lemnear]

Anyway I'm interested in your take on Ant, PM me if you don't mind

I will, my friend. Allow me to make some tests first and make up my mind about the deck in the current metagame, now that riding T1/2 Goblins in TES is a less successful trait.

[Final Fortune]

If you need to push thru' counters I think playing the /g fetchlands and SBing a Dryad Arbor could do the trick, you rarely fetch Volcanic Island anyway.

[Sloshthedark]

If you need to push thru' counters I think playing the /g fetchlands and SBing a Dryad Arbor could do the trick, you rarely fetch Volcanic Island anyway.

Played that before PiF was released, not worth messing with the manabase imo and arbor is superawkward card if drawn

[Zombie]

Wait, can someone clarify? I'm super sleep-deprived and Arbor seems crazy. For Therapy flashback?

[Lemnear]

Wait, can someone clarify? I'm super sleep-deprived and Arbor seems crazy. For Therapy flashback?

Nah, for natural Order

[emidln]

Nah, for natural Order

Nah, 1-of Culling the Weak to play around Surgical Extraction.

[Mindlash]

Nah, for natural Order

You could Natural Order in a Verdant Force for even more flashbacked Cabal Therapies ;)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

https://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/stf/stf22_progenitus.jpg

Kills in two swings... or in one AdN flip.


Ok, back on tracks. Was the Dryad Arbor idea meant seriously? Becasue I find it really interesting!

[Sloshthedark]

Ok, back on tracks. Was the Dryad Arbor idea meant seriously? Becasue I find it really interesting!

Yeah it was interesting with Diabolic Intent and other creatures MD ...G means half of your fetches can't get certain colors when you need them and the other half can't fetch the Arbor... and now imagine you open 7 with the Arbor as your 1st/2nd land...

[Final Fortune]

https://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/stf/stf22_progenitus.jpg

Kills in two swings... or in one AdN flip.


Ok, back on tracks. Was the Dryad Arbor idea meant seriously? Becasue I find it really interesting!

Yes I meant it, I've been experimenting with different ideas between Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact and Dryad Arbor lately in Veteran ANT and think having the utility to turn lands into disruption is one of the best things about that deck, the alternative man plan with Natural Order into Progenitus is another direction but there are a lot of strategies that come very close to having innate synergy like Green Sun's Zenith accelerating with Dryad Arbor or tutoring for Xantid Swarm or generating the 11 mana to tutor for Progenitus.

It'd take a lot of space in your SB, but just think about what having 4 Green Sun's Zenith, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Xantid Swarm, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Bayou would let you do potentially, because suddenly Natural Order is in reach and nobody keeps Swords to Plowshares MD or SBs in Golgari Charm vs ANT.

I'm sure the above posters were just being dicks, but I think tightly weaving Green Sun's Zenith into a Storm shell is really interesting because even tho' it does so inefficiently the tutoring for Xantid Swarm or destroy target artifact/enchantment creature is pretty utilitarian and it effectively is a Llanowar Elf or another Cabal Therapy or both.

It's one of those ideas that people are going to instantly shoot down because they're all like "lol, that's an aggro-control card" but if you look at it from the perspective of being a card that lets you accelerate, disrupt or answer the board while compacting those functions around a single tutor instead of 4 Xantid Swarm or 3 Abrupt Decay or 2 Chrome Mox or whatever it makes some sense to trade efficiency for versatility and I guaranteed you nobody will see it comming at the very least.

[anomie-p]

That's some awesome birthday present! Hope you have fun playing the deck :)


Yeah, definitely was. I think for this Christmas I start asking for power :)

I've started gold fishing (without mulliganing) as suggested in the Carsten Kotter 'Storm Regimen' article, I have a notebook I am writing all plays in, but I am also keeping a google spreadsheet w/ the hands and some stats.

Don't know if it will be useful to anyone but I figured I'd link it just in case:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmE8qn3M_bRbdFVQaFFRWUFWYWJ6bDAwX3UxR1h0b2c&usp=sharing

I am going to try to get in at least 3 goldfishes a day, work etc. permitting, we'll see how that goes.

[gregtron]

I finished building ANT last month (my wife got me the 4x LED, 3x Infernal Tutor and 4x Cabal Ritual I needed to finish it out for me on my birthday), I ended up building it right before a legacy event at my LGS, pulling cards out of my legacy binder and sleeving them up right before the event.

I won my first match without having played or even goldfished the deck (and then promptly went 1-2, 0-2, 1-2 in my next three matches, because I am a terrible player)

I've been traveling on a business trip since then but am pretty excited to get home tomorrow, get my hands back on my new deck and run through some of the goldfishing, etc. suggested in some of the links on the OP. This is a very nice thread :)

Who goes out of town for business without taking their deck with them?

[DragoFireheart]

https://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/stf/stf22_progenitus.jpg

Kills in two swings... or in one AdN flip.


Seems pretty bad bro.

Adding creatures that aren't Bob or that flying insect seems like a way to turn on their removal. Why not just kill them?

[anomie-p]

Who goes out of town for business without taking their deck with them?

I thought about taking it, but decided not to because I didn't really want to drag that much money in cards six thousand miles without knowing for sure I'd be playing in something.

(I probably should have brought the deck, though, it would've given me the option of a side trip to scrub out in GP Paris ;) - My plan was to just draft on Fridays at a store a few blocks from the hotel, that turned into 'someone you just met spots you a pod deck so you can play in the modern because no one is drafting, then you go drinking with your opponents afterward', which was pretty sweet, to be honest)

Edit: Took the deck out to my weekly LGS legacy event tonight (second time playing it), four rounds, went 2-0, 1-2, 2-1, 0-2 (one more match than I won last time), had a ton of fun (playing matches with this deck sort of kicks my adrenaline up, there's a lot of suspense, I like it).

[sawatarix]

@sloshthedark:

Well done at the gp,i saw you on day 2 crushing michael bonde after my other friend defeated him with sneak show :-)
I'm Kai by the way,the guy with foil TES.We played against each other during Bazaar of Moxen in novembre on the sunday event,i was there together with lemnear and we both played the exact same 75 TES during the Bom.

I personally took my beloved 4c delver deck into battle but unfortunately went not very well on the main event although i had many good results the weeks before.
Well happens.
So from now on i'm gonna sleeve up my 3rd deck,ANT.
Probably gonna play it at the next Bazaar of Moxen,see how it goes.

Your current list looks interesting by the way,
Why don't you run ad nauseam anymore?
Isn't it just crazy in the mirror or let's say against any combodeck?

Lightning bolt md to akr care about thalia g1?
I instantly thought about magma jet,as it also scrys for 2 but has a drawback in it's manacost.

This is my current list by the way:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/26/asyjuseh.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/26/9u9eqyra.jpg

(Sry for the really bad picture quality)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lordofthestringz]

Hello, i picked up the deck recently and so far i'm enjoying it and having decent results with it.

My list is pretty stock with 3 preordain, 4 Duress and 3 Cabal therapy and my SB is
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens

The matchups that i am struggling the most are Patriot, RUG and DeathBlade (this last one is really a PITA), but surpsingly i'm also having a lot of trouble against Jund/Junk and sometimes Shardless BUG.

The main reason for that is the presence of Surgical Extraction/Extirpate in the sideboard of this decks. What is your main strategy against this cards? I try to keep brainstorm up agains the discard, but i find it very difficult to play around the card, it just makes it quite difficult to win via a PIF loop and with all the discard that is played against us it makes it difficult to win via a natural Tendrills. Not to talk about the situations where you end up with a Tendrills in your hand and you end up with no win condition because it is removed from the game. This happened to me 3 times during the GP Paris, it is quite frustrating.

I have been thinking about adding dark confidant in the SB and one top to the main for this matchups, but that doesnt solve the extraction problem. I play with one ETW to play around it but so far it is not working. Yesterday i thought about adding a single burning wish to the side and another tendrills, this way i can side one burning wish and still have one out.

So a new side would be:
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Dread of Night
3 Dark confidant
1 Burning Wish
1 Tendrills of Agony

What do you guys think?

Thanks

[Higgs]

Sideboarding question here. I see lists with 3 Carpet + 3 Xantid Swarm in the SB (Timo's GP Paris list for example). Aren't these competing slots against tempo/blue counter decks? How do you sideboard when you are running with both?

[Lordofthestringz]

Sideboarding question here. I see lists with 3 Carpet + 3 Xantid Swarm in the SB (Timo's GP Paris list for example). Aren't these competing slots against tempo/blue counter decks? How do you sideboard when you are running with both?

Hey, they don't compete with each other, usually you dont sideboard the Xantid Swarm against tempo decks, because usually they still have bolts in that can kill them, i just side them against Sneak and Show and Merfolk for example, they are awesome in this match ups.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Siding BW is wrong, I played two main about a year ago and it wasn't completely bad. It helps against hatebears and extracton effects, and when you paly only two, it won't clog your hand.

[NoizeMe]

Siding BW is wrong, I played two main about a year ago and it wasn't completely bad. It helps against hatebears and extracton effects, and when you paly only two, it won't clog your hand.

Why is siding in BW wrong? You only bring it in if you smell extraction effects from your opponent.
Of cause this makes only sense if you play a second Tendrils in the SB, but personally I hate the idea of being just dead if Tendrils gets extracted.

[Namida]

Why is siding in BW wrong? You only bring it in if you smell extraction effects from your opponent.
Of cause this makes only sense if you play a second Tendrils in the SB, but personally I hate the idea of being just dead if Tendrils gets extracted.

What has to happen for your opponent to be able to cast a Surgical Extraction targeting Tendrils of Agony? You would have to have Tendrils in your graveyard against an opponent that you already "smell extraction effects from."

Basically, you'd be devoting two sideboard spots (that can be used for a better effect) to a situation that shouldn't be occurring with too much frequency.

[NoizeMe]

What has to happen for your opponent to be able to cast a Surgical Extraction targeting Tendrils of Agony? You would have to have Tendrils in your graveyard against an opponent that you already "smell extraction effects from."

Basically, you'd be devoting two sideboard spots (that can be used for a better effect) to a situation that shouldn't be occurring with too much frequency.

What has to happen? Discard :D.
Sometimes you just draw Tendrils and it gets hit by Hymn + Extraction. Also none of this SB slots is wasted.
The second Tendrils comes in handy in matchups like Miracles were games tend to be grindy and firing Mini-Tendrils with help of there counter spells becomes an option.
Burning Wish can come in combo matchups as a 5th business spell.

Sure, I would prefer to have two additional SB slots, but a) I do not want to be dead against discard + extraction effect and b) they are not dead slots.

[JanoschEausH]

Hello, i picked up the deck recently and so far i'm enjoying it and having decent results with it.

My list is pretty stock with 3 preordain, 4 Duress and 3 Cabal therapy and my SB is
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens

The matchups that i am struggling the most are Patriot, RUG and DeathBlade (this last one is really a PITA), but surpsingly i'm also having a lot of trouble against Jund/Junk and sometimes Shardless BUG.

The main reason for that is the presence of Surgical Extraction/Extirpate in the sideboard of this decks. What is your main strategy against this cards? I try to keep brainstorm up agains the discard, but i find it very difficult to play around the card, it just makes it quite difficult to win via a PIF loop and with all the discard that is played against us it makes it difficult to win via a natural Tendrills. Not to talk about the situations where you end up with a Tendrills in your hand and you end up with no win condition because it is removed from the game. This happened to me 3 times during the GP Paris, it is quite frustrating.

I have been thinking about adding dark confidant in the SB and one top to the main for this matchups, but that doesnt solve the extraction problem. I play with one ETW to play around it but so far it is not working. Yesterday i thought about adding a single burning wish to the side and another tendrills, this way i can side one burning wish and still have one out.

So a new side would be:
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Dread of Night
3 Dark confidant
1 Burning Wish
1 Tendrills of Agony

What do you guys think?

Thanks

I'm considering running Bob in the Side also. But i think it's either Bob or Xantid Swarm. They compete for slots, since you want both in the same matchups (Combo Mirror / Esper / Miracles). Would you aggree? I still don't know if Bob is the real deal. People turned away from it for a reason in Storm... Why do you think Bob has become more present in ANT Sideboads in the last weeks?

[Namida]

What has to happen? Discard :D.
Sometimes you just draw Tendrils and it gets hit by Hymn + Extraction. Also none of this SB slots is wasted.
The second Tendrils comes in handy in matchups like Miracles were games tend to be grindy and firing Mini-Tendrils with help of there counter spells becomes an option.
Burning Wish can come in combo matchups as a 5th business spell.

Sure, I would prefer to have two additional SB slots, but a) I do not want to be dead against discard + extraction effect and b) they are not dead slots.

So your opponent has the discard, the Surgical, and you haven't been able to effectively protect yourself by using your cantrips to avoid putting Tendrils in your hand. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to be dead against this, but I don't think it should be happening with so much frequency that you would need to bring sideboard cards in for it.

Also, what else are you going to have in your sideboard to make Wish into a business spell?

[Lordofthestringz]

What has to happen for your opponent to be able to cast a Surgical Extraction targeting Tendrils of Agony? You would have to have Tendrils in your graveyard against an opponent that you already "smell extraction effects from."


Having Tendrills in your hand is not a common situation i have to admit, but it happened to me frequently in my last tournaments. I will describe two specific situations where it happened:

Situation 1:
Game 3 against Shardless BUG me on the play, i draw tendrills on my draw step i pass the turn, i think he top decks toughtseize, he makes me discard tendrills and he immediately extract it. This situation can happen also with deathrite shaman...

It would be great to not draw the tendrills but sometimes it happens.

Situation 2:

Game 3 against Goblins, this is a local player that must have the most nazi sb against storm, against him i have seen chalice of the void, thorn of amethyst and mindbreak trap but what got me this time was an extraction:

In one of the turns he has thorn of amethyst on the table, i managed to chain of vapor it at his end step, i have past in flames, LED, Ad Nauseam and enough mana to cast it naturally but not enough rituals for a PIF loop, i cast AN, and one of my first flips is tendrills, i managed to flip more 2 leds but i would need to flashback the PIF and tendrills to end the game, he had 3 cards in hand i cast therapy, one of them i know it is the thorn, i name mindbreak trap, it does have it but he also has a surgical extraction that totally invalidates my plan of cracking the leds to use the mana to flashback everything.

They might seem like really narrow situations, but i have been facing it a lot, fighting trought hatebears/counters/discard/wasteland (yes even with basics in the deck we still need to have fetches/basics in the opening hand to not be wasted) is the norm for us, but putting the surgical on top of that just makes it a nightmare :D and this is what happens when you face DeathBlade (there was a lot of it at GP Paris...).

I always end up like this after being extracted:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lroozdNzqJ1qcz44mo1_500.gif

If i add the bobs to the side then the second and perhaps the third tendrills also belong to the board, thats why maybe siding also a single burning wish can be a good ideia.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I really think that you should try the list with two maindeck Burning Wishes.

[nevilshute]

Playing the deck with only the 1 Tendrils to win through and no Burning Wish feels a little scary at first. But over a long enough time line you will notice that it is very, very rare for it to come up as an issue.

I had been playing ANT with Burning Wish for a few months when I first tried cutting the wishes. I then played against my friend's BUG deck. And in the course of 5-6 games I twice got stuck with Tendrils in my hand off of top decking it with no brainstorms in hand. In both cases it got discarded and in both cases deathrite ate it.

I left fuming and immidiately decided to put Burning Wish into the deck again.

Since then a lot of time has passed and I've tested it a lot more and am now much more comfortable with running only a single tendrils and being all in on it. It really is very rare for it to come up. Once in a blue moon you'll lose to it, sure. But the deck feels smoother to me without the wishes so that makes up for it.

In the end it's a question of personal preference and play style and I believe the deck is fundamentally strong both with and without Burning Wish. But don't let the "it could happen" factor with only one win con scare you into making the decision for you. It almost never comes up.

[Lordofthestringz]

I really think that you should try the list with two maindeck Burning Wishes.

I usually play TES also, and i do like to have Burning Wish in the main, but it does also add much more complexity to the deck and then it would force me to have more wishable targets on the board to really profit from them.

I like a lot the version with 15 cantrips and 7 discard spells, its perfect for me, adding the burning wish would make the Ad Nauseam even worse.

Against the decks that play surgical extraction i usually dont need to side that much, the main deck is good against them, the only thing i need to solve is how to protect myself from the extractions. Maybe i just need a bit more luck and dont find myself with tendrills on my hand that often.

Anyway, i will test my suggestion next week and see how it goes :)

Edit: nevilshute i agree with you, and you are most probably right, but the times when it happens really leave me frustrated. It doesnt help that i managed to go to the final of a last chance trial on the day before the GP (giving me high hopes for the gp), and then i started with a draw and a loss in the GP exactly because of this situation.

[gregtron]

I usually play TES also, and i do like to have Burning Wish in the main, but it does also add much more complexity to the deck and then it would force me to have more wishable targets on the board to really profit from them.

I like a lot the version with 15 cantrips and 7 discard spells, its perfect for me, adding the burning wish would make the Ad Nauseam even worse.

Against the decks that play surgical extraction i usually dont need to side that much, the main deck is good against them, the only thing i need to solve is how to protect myself from the extractions. Maybe i just need a bit more luck and dont find myself with tendrills on my hand that often.

Anyway, i will test my suggestion next week and see how it goes :)

Edit: nevilshute i agree with you, and you are most probably right, but the times when it happens really leave me frustrated. It doesnt help that i managed to go to the final of a last chance trial on the day before the GP (giving me high hopes for the gp), and then i started with a draw and a loss in the GP exactly because of this situation.

How does Burning Wish make Ad Naus worse? Sometimes you're just looking for a little fast mana, a tutor, and an LED. Burning Wish gives you a higher chance of finding the tutor, but also lessens your reliance flipping an LED with it because it always gets what you need. And besides being two extra copies of Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish also gives you the flexibility to beat game 1 Gaddock Teeg (don't laugh, shit happens), blow out an Elves player when you're a few storm short of the kill (Pyroclasm is definitely a sweet one), IGGy loop to setup the kill, or go for a big Empty.

I understand that everyone's going to build this deck in a slightly different way and I can normally understand the logic behind running/not running SDT, LDV, Grim, etc, but I think running ANT without BW is a mistake at this point.

[gregtron]

I'm considering running Bob in the Side also. But i think it's either Bob or Xantid Swarm. They compete for slots, since you want both in the same matchups (Combo Mirror / Esper / Miracles). Would you aggree? I still don't know if Bob is the real deal. People turned away from it for a reason in Storm... Why do you think Bob has become more present in ANT Sideboads in the last weeks?

I've personally always hated Bob out of the board, but have never been able to put my finger on why. Before UWx control lists had Entreat you had to grind through Countertop with a natural Tendrils which was... Sketchy. But now we have Abrupt Decay and they have Entreat and the landscape of that match is wildly different. In non-blue combo matches I normally board for speed and disruption.

Anyway, for me it's Xantid Swarm without a doubt, especially now that people are moving away from RUG to BUG because Lightning Bolt is so much worse for our beloved little bees than Golgari Charm.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Last time i play BW ANT (note that it was year or so ago) I used this...

md:
58 ANT
2 BW
sb:
4 Bob
4 Swarm
2 Decay
1 E Truth
1 CoV
1 V Ruin
1 ToA
1 EtW

...so I don't get the noise about "extensive BW-target sb". I'd cut Bobs today, though.

[Lordofthestringz]

How does Burning Wish make Ad Naus worse? Sometimes you're just looking for a little fast mana, a tutor, and an LED. Burning Wish gives you a higher chance of finding the tutor, but also lessens your reliance flipping an LED with it because it always gets what you need. And besides being two extra copies of Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish also gives you the flexibility to beat game 1 Gaddock Teeg (don't laugh, shit happens), blow out an Elves player when you're a few storm short of the kill (Pyroclasm is definitely a sweet one), IGGy loop to setup the kill, or go for a big Empty.

I understand that everyone's going to build this deck in a slightly different way and I can normally understand the logic behind running/not running SDT, LDV, Grim, etc, but I think running ANT without BW is a mistake at this point.

For several reasons in my opinion:
- Higher converted mana cost, they usually replace the preordains, makes for less stellar ad nauseams
- Mana base needs to be adjusted to have more red sources, what does make a awkward manabase if you still want to play with green cards on the sideboard
- still on the topic of mana, going for ad nauseam with no mana floating is quite risky since we dont play chrome mox, and we will not always find the petal to get the red mana, with just one B or BB floating we can easily find one of the rituals (from my experience), even if you find leds you need the initial mana to play the tutor (except if you also have PIF somewhere in the equation)
- it also makes for less spells played in the first turns what makes reaching ******** (i cant write ***** hold?) a bit more complex

This is the reason why i dont want to play with it in ANT, in TES i do believe it is awesome.

I also think Elves is already a quite good match up for us, you are right on Gaddock teeg but at least that one I havent seen in a longtime, im just suffering from too much extractions :laugh:

Edit: It is kinda weird that the guy with a BW avatar is explaining reasons to not play with it main deck in ANT but oh well...

[NoizeMe]

Also, what else are you going to have in your sideboard to make Wish into a business spell?

I used to run a second PiF and a Telemin Performance in the board anyway.


[...] Reasoning why AdN is bad in ANT [...]

I know, the quoted reasoning was to explain why BW is worse with AdN, but I think it applies to AdN in general in ANT.
AdN just doesn't get there too often and forces us to go for it to early much to often.

I testing a second main PiF over AdN at the moment and it feels really powerful.
Not playing main AdN also enables more Tendrils main, which is quit a thing against the Tempo and Control matchups.

[Lordofthestringz]

I testing a second main PiF over AdN at the moment and it feels really powerful.
Not playing main AdN also enables more Tendrils main, which is quit a thing against the Tempo and Control matchups.

I have to be honest i think that the main deck is quite optimal right now, im going to test with a Top main but thats about it.

By going the more PiF route i think you are exposing yourself to more problems, Deahtrite Shaman really is everywhere, and Rest in Peace and said Extractions are already such a PITA that you dont neet to complicate even more your life, one local player that made quite a nice run at the GP Paris (10-5 i think) actually plays with more Ad Nauseams on the side for extra speed in some MUs, and i do like that approach.

[Machahiko]

With the success of BUG and discard in general, I think Ad Nauseam is needed more than something like 6 months ago. With deathrite shaman and discard being so popular being able to refill your hand and kill the opponent without using the graveyard is very important.

[gregtron]

I have to be honest i think that the main deck is quite optimal right now, im going to test with a Top main but thats about it.

By going the more PiF route i think you are exposing yourself to more problems, Deahtrite Shaman really is everywhere, and Rest in Peace and said Extractions are already such a PITA that you dont neet to complicate even more your life, one local player that made quite a nice run at the GP Paris (10-5 i think) actually plays with more Ad Nauseams on the side for extra speed in some MUs, and i do like that approach.

I've run a single top in my last two tourneys and have loved it every time. It almost makes me miss the good old days of Top, Top, Helm of Awakening to Brain Freeze under a Gaddock Teeg. :cool:

Almost.

[anomie-p]

I know, the quoted reasoning was to explain why BW is worse with AdN, but I think it applies to AdN in general in ANT.
AdN just doesn't get there too often and forces us to go for it to early much to often.

I had a game on Tuesday against lands where I knew my opponent had multiple Thorn of Amethyst in hand and was going to start dropping them the next turn, I jammed a 0-mana-floating AdN and won, and it felt a whole lot more like "I get to go for it this early" than it did anything else. I suppose i could have passed and waited to draw bounce but that felt like it was much worse than just trying to "win right now" - I could have missed (and almost did, I got the petal and ritual I needed very late in the AdN resolution, late enough that I had to risk flipping a PiF or a tendrils and dying), but if I hadn't had the AdN and the ability to play it, the thorn on the board (with more on the way) makes it much less likely I'd win than jamming the AdN, no?

So maybe 'forces us to go for it too early' vs. 'lets us go for it early' is a matter of game state/metagame/perspective?

(I suppose i could be wrong, as I haven't been playing the deck very long)


(Edit: That was a turn 2 win on the play, the 0-mana-floating AdN was 'play a land, dark ritual, cabal ritual (without threshold), tap my second land for the fifth mana, AdN ... I think that's my current lowest win turn in a real game ;) )

[cheerios]

Hi Guys,

Need your feedback on the following SB:
3 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay

My meta has been recently filled with combo (mostly sneak and show and storm), BUG, and UWR delver. I used to play empty the warrens rarely used the card as a win con. I think I needed the swarms for the show and tell matchup and the dark confidants for the storm mirror. I recently tried using 3 surgical extraction against combo (reanimator, show and tell, and TES) and was never impressed. Reanimator and Sneak n Show just mulls for turn 1 or turn 2 show and tell to Grizz; while the TES matchup turns into grindfest post-board.

[Lemnear]

Have to turn down the idea of running Hymn to Tourach. In matches against control and attrition is was awesome as against S&T, but ai found myself too often "cockjockeying" against Wasteland and softcounters.

[sawatarix]

Hymn to tourach does not reveal our opponents hand,even if we hit 2 counterspells there could be still some of them left in his(or her) hand.
Duress on the other hand is awesome as it takes the most powerful one and you have perfect information how to play around the rest.
(Btw discarding a land+creature with hymn is incredibly bad because you don't care about those anyway.)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

Discarding Thalia, Clique, the mana to play them or Wastelands isn't bad. Tearing complete hands apart with Therapy as Hymn is quite possible.

Edit: turn 1 cantrip, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 cantrip + Hymn is quite devastating against control. The problem's within the speed overall as a T2 Hymn on the Draw is easily too slow for some opposing decks

[Lordofthestringz]

Discarding Thalia, Clique, the mana to play them or Wastelands isn't bad. Tearing complete hands apart with Therapy as Hymn is quite possible.

Edit: turn 1 cantrip, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 cantrip + Hymn is quite devastating against control. The problem's within the speed overall as a T2 Hymn on the Draw is easily too slow for some opposing decks

Maybe to compensate that we can add some Stoneforge Mystics to have a faster clock? Or somme TNNs? I think that maybe if we add some Lilianas we will finally have the ultimate disruption package. Now that i think about it maybe some Deathrite Shaman would also improve our mirror match. I suggest this list as a starting point:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63848

Maybe we will read a Heart of the Blade soon?

I am of course just kidding :smile:

[sawatarix]

Couldn't agree more Lordofthestringz

Hymn doesn't make any sense at all,as stated above.your scenario is how to beat miracle with team america.

We don't care about cardadvantge or such nonsence,it's all about to disrupt 1-2 cards from our opponents hand we really (!) care about,play around the rest and execute the combo.
End of Story.
If your really wanna get card advantage,play more ad nauseams,these provide a ton of card advantage.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Ghiwo]

Hi everyone! :smile:

I've been reading this new thread since its creation and sometimes I found some very good points. I'm quite experienced as ANT player, not a noob but not proficient yet. This to say that I hope I'm going to know what I'm writing :tongue:

I play a regular build, and I'm not gonna ask you help about the mainboard, as I think it reached an optimal shape right now. So, I'm gonna ask some things about filling the sideboard, and lines of play to adopt in some match ups.

Maindeck is a standard list: 15 lands, 14 cantrips + 1 sensei's divining top, 7 discard, 1 AN, 1 Pif, 1 ToA, and so on.. The sideboard is this one:

3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens

The card that is keeping me think is Carpet of Flowers: we are supposed to board it in in tempo match-ups, but the rising of "non-standard" tempo decks, such as Patriot or Team America (which is, I think, one of the hardest match-ups right now), is weakening Carpets pretty much. When we play versus Team America Carpet is not so effective, as they can play from a single Underground Sea and a single Bayou, with Deathrite Shaman netting all the extra mana they need. When we play against Patriot instead, Carpet can give us a considerable amount of mana as they will often have even 4 lands, but it isn't really what we want to fight this deck. They play an unconventional tempo strategy, as they will tend to tap out really often for Stoneforge Mystic or Meddling Mages. Due to this they are playing very few Spell Pierces, which is the best enemy to fight for Carpet. They are also running 0 Stifles sometimes, so we'll get to fetch for basic to keep our mana base 100% safe.
So, I'm considering alternatives to fill the space left by the 2 Carpets. Right now I thought about Pithing Needle, Telemin Performance, 8th discard, 2nd Ad Nauseam.

Pithing Needle: it can be useful to fight Miracles, Liliana, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull (after bouncing or decaying the Germ), Aether Vial and so on. Have someone of you tried it? How do you feel about it?

Telemin Performance: this one is a lot narrow, but it addresses match-ups that are not so good, such as OmniShow, Sneak Show, Miracles, High Tide, mirror. It could be good also against Reanimator if you hit Griselbrand or Iona or Tidesprout Tyrant. Same question: have someone played this one? How do you feel?

8th discard: this one is always good, as we can board in in many match-ups. It addresses all the blue based deck, especially Patriot, Team America, Miracles, and Esper/Death Blade. It could be good also against mirror, Reanimator and High Tide.

2nd Ad Nauseam: this is good against discard heavy decks and combo mirrors when you want more speed, or also grindy games like Miracles and Esper Blade, where refilling our hand is always good, as they tend to have a very low clock.
Right now I'm very unsure about what to board, I'm preparing for a tournament on the 9th of March, so I'll keep on thinking. If you have other alternatives I'm glad to talk about them! :)
Thanks a lot to everyone who wants to discuss something with me :)

At the very last: I'm sorry for eventual mistakes I left in my writing, as I'm not English! :D

[jtos84]

Here is what my s/b looks like at the moment.

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grim Tutor

There is not always readily available s/b advice or reasoning here, so I had to come up with ideas myself over time. I will give my reasoning for each slot, and any feedback is welcome. I am also going to criticize a few options from other lists although they have proven successful in the past.

Two chain of vapors come in from the s/b in every game two and three match I play in the place of two gitaxian probes. The reason being any deck can bring in artifact hate like gafdigger's cage.

Against Death and Taxes I bring in two chain of vapors, one dread of night, one massacre, one thoughtseize, and one Karakas; I bring out four gitaxian probes and one duress. The reason I do not run so many dread of nights is that one will not stop an ethersworn canonist, and it does not address phyrexian revoker. I can also search up the proper removal and stack my deck with Lim-Dul's Vault.

When I play against U/W/R delver I bring out four gitaxian probes, one island, and one preordain; I bring in massacre, two chain of vapor, two xantid swarm, and a tropical island. The reasoning behind only two xantid swarms is that I want to combo off with Ad Nauseum quickly if possible because they will only draw more counters, so if I have too many green spells in my hand that I cannot cast, I am potentially stopping myself from using a tutor. The discard works well, so three green spells can cause trouble sometimes.

Against Rug Delver I will have the same plan as above except I will substitute the thoughtseize for massacre. Carpet of Flowers can be good in this match, but not as good in others. Xantid swarm works well because they either counter it, or possibly tap an island for a lightning bolt. That is a win/win situation. The Lim-Dul's Vault in the main deck serves a similar purpose. It can act as a discard spell because it is likely to be countered if the opponent is holding one while at the same time acting as a more powerful preordain.

I have moved grim tutor to the s/b because it has been increasingly difficult to remain consistent with it in the main. It is good against certain decks like reanimator and Deathblade, but it is not always good when players are using three spell pierces which has become common. Because Team America has become more prevalent as well as reanimator, I was forced to make a decision about the three dark confidants I was previously s/bing. I have opted to use one tormod's crypt, one surgical extraction, and the grim tutor in in their place because dark confidant was not exactly an adequate answer to a deck running so many spells that are good against storm. Reanimator seems like a more promising matchup.

[godmodecomplex]

Hey folks, I’m a long time lurker I figured I would contribute something. I’ve got two A.N.T. lists here and two reports to go with them. One for 5th place at a g.p.t., the other for 7th place at Flipside Gaming’s legacy 1k on 2-23. One is a little dated it’s from November 2013, sorry but I’ve been busy . here goes nothing.

November 2013 grand prix trial 5th place

Burning Ant
4 polluted delta
2 Bloodstained mire
2 Scalding tarn
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands
2 island
1 swamp
3 burning wish
3 duress
4 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 lotus petal
4 lion’s eye diamond
1 tendrils
1 past in flames
1 adnauseaum

Sideboard

3 abrupt decay
3 xantid swarm
1 tropical island
1 karakas
1 ill gotten gains
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 duress
1 infest
1 grim tutor

Rd 1 vs Affinity 2-0
Game one I win the die roll and lead with git probe and get to therapy away 2 x thought cast. Turn 2 I adnauseum from 17 life and that is good enough to get there.
Game two I lead with duress and take a flusterstorm, on my turn two I gitaxian probe and once again adnauseaum from 17. This one was also good enough.

Rd 2 versus Ancestral cascade BUG whatever. 2-1
Game one I gitaxian probe and see the coast is clear for a turn one IGG loop.
Game two, my opening hand is cantrips and lands, I hadn’t durdled yet so I decided to keep it, he leads with thoughtsieze and takes a brainstorm. I cantrip on my turn into an led. His turn two he plays a revoker!? Names lions eye diamond. I sigh because I didn’t board in decay’s. on my turn I cantrip into a burning wish. On his turn 3 he hymns away my last cantrip and the wish. I concede.
Game three he mulls to six I lead with duress and see brainstorm and force but no other blue card, I take the brainstorm and on my turn two I git probe to check what he drew, which wasn’t a blue card, I hammer him out with a past in flames loop.

Round 3 vs rug delver. 1-2
Game one, he says he knows hat im playing , it dosn’t matter I play a sea and go rit rit rit duress adnauseam.
Game 2 I open duress cabal therapy in the same hand all I need is mana so I keep.he leads with mongoose go. I lead with duress and see 2 brainstorms a force and goyf and a mongoose. I take the force. On his turn he taps out for goyf, I groan because I cannot kill him for it. I do however get to therapy away 2 brainstorms. But it dosnt matter he beats me to death as I brick drawstep after drawstep.
Game 3 I have to mull I keep duress sea ponder led led petal. I lead with duress I see brainstorm delver volc force stifle reb pierce. I say to myself if he taps out for that delver im going for it reguardless of what I draw. I go for it and brick hard. Oh well live fast die hard blah blah blah kill a Hilton. I know it wasn’t a good play bro. I felt lucky.

Rd 4 loaming pox 1-2 (yikes!)

My notes here a little sketchy, sorry. What it says exactly is Game one is a grind festival that ends with past in flames.
Game 2 he leads with white layline, I turn 2 wish for 14 goblins and then pass back and he eplauges for goblins.
Game 3 he leads with white leyline black leyline and thoughtsieze. I play out lands and get liliana ultimate’d now im irritated going into round 5.

Round 5 vs 3 color counterbalance (finally a bye) 2-1
Lose die roll
Game one My notes here once again are a little sketch. He leads basic island top, I lead gitaxian probe see zero force of will in his hand and play out land petal (drawn off probe !) led led tutor adnauseam kill you and your silly control deck.
Game two I feel pumped. For no good reason. He locks me out quick and fast and even has eot3 v clique to start the pressure, followed by meddling mage.
Game 3 I mull to a hand with decay swarm land land led and tutor. I lead with swarm. He leads with top. I play my second land and have to pass. He plays cb and passes back….. let the grind begin. Thankfully he has no pressure at all After several turns I finally start drawing action I endstep blow up the balance with my decay. I untap sting him with the bees and past inflames his face off for a real big storm count. Grapeshot would’ve gotten there.

Whooo hooo ! I made top 8 !

Semi finals. Vs ancestral bug the same pilot as before. 1-2
Game one is a grind with thoughtsieze hymn and the like. On the last turn that I am alive I draw infernal tutor with 2 dark rits and a cabal rit in hand. I get past in flames and win from there.
Game 2 I punt so very hard I attempt to cantrip into adnauseam with led mana but I sequence my cantrips incorrectly and put adnaseum 2 down from the top as opposed to one.
Game 3 is the worst grind ever and he has dethrite online to eat every good spell I discard, oh well win some lose some.

Through my testing and goldfishing for the 2 months that separate this event from the last. The day before the event I get frustrated with burning wish’s anti synergistic quality with cabal ritual. Like any good magic player I mess with a completely fine working deck.

2-23-2014 7th place at Flipside Gaming’s legacy 1k event.

I sleeve up this beast.

4 polluted delta
4 misty rain forest
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
2 island
1 swamp
1 tendrils of agony
1 past in flames
1 adnauseaum
1 grim tutor
2 preordain
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 ponder
3 duress
4 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal

Sideboard

3 abrupt decay
3 xantid swarm
3 surgical exraction
2 chain of vapor
1 duress
1 empty the warrens
1 bayou
1 massacre

I apologize in advance but my notes from this are significantly more sparse

Round 1 vs 43 lands with stage depths and punshing fire. 2-0
I lose the die roll but I keep a hand with rit rit adnausem. He goes turn one manabond and dumps his whole hand on the table representing a turn 2 marit lage. I adnauseaum from 20 and kill him dead.
Game 2 goes way long I keep fetchlands uncracked as not to fall victim to wasteland. I get to a point where I have 3 cabal rituals in hand and 1 dark ritual and I am able to kill through a sphere of resistance on the table.

Round 2 vs mono red goblins 2-1
I lose the die roll again and he goes mountain lackey go. .. I turn 2 adnauseum from 16. And kill him.
Game 2 see game one. Just swap lackey for aether vial.

Round 3 vs bug delver 2-0 same pilot as the ancestral bug player from my previous report.
Game one I blind therapy away force of will on my turn 2 leaving him with a daze and I am able to combo around daze with no problems.
Game 2 he leads with thoughtsieze and takes away a tutor. On my turn I draw xantid swarm. It dosnt matter because he kills it with golgari charm. it looks like he gets me with a delver and is able to hymn me back to back turns.
Game 3 the disruption favors me as I am able to win through a fow and a thoughtsieze with the only pressure being a death right shaman.

Round 4 UW stone blade. 0-2
Lose the die roll Game one I open a 3 cantrip hand and keep. He leads tundra ponder. I cantrip into a tutor. He goes divining top land go. I double cantrip into nothing relevant and pass. He passes with 3 lands up and cliques me eot he then plays a 4th land and slams jace and I concede.
Game 2
My notes are shot here but I know he plays a turn two meddling mage on adnauseum and I punt with chain of vapor. I was screwing around upping my storm count and forgot to bounce the mage.

Round 5 vs Mono black Grislestorm.
I win the die roll.
Game one I either turn one or turn two him.
Game one we demolish one another with unmasks and cabal therapies and I surgical him (not grislebrands unfourtunately) and then we play draw (nothing relevant at all) go for approximately 8 turns. He is able to cast grislebrand. I have 7 lands in play at the end of the game.
Game 3 I mull to 4. But I have 2 leds and a land. I play a land and play my leds and he goes dark ritual hypnotic spector. That hippy beat me all the way down to 4 he then soul spiked me for the win.

Round 6 do or die. 2-0 vs g/b elves combo.
Game one I sit down across from my opponent who says man I really underestimated the amount of combo that would be here today. I win the die roll. And then win the match.
Game 2 we cabal therapy each other and he turn 3 craterhoofs me to death.
Game 3 do or die I open a promising looking hand and lead with duress. I see glimpse x1 and 2 natural orders and 2 elves. I take the glimpse. I draw cabal therapy for my turn and get rid of the orders. I buy myself plenty of time to set up a past in flames loop.

Whoo hoo another top 8 !!!

Top 8 versus patriot delver.1-2
Game one my opponent knows what I am on and he mulls to 5 and passes without playing a land ! I duress away his force and combo on my turn 3 without him playing a single land.
Games 2 and 3 went almost exactly the same way a turn one delver and turn 2 meddling mage for him both times naming infernal tutor. Game 3 he even felt comfortable enough to play and equip a sword to the delver. And he knows I have xantid swarms because hes talking about it before top 8 cuts.

Oh well there’s always next time. Moving forwards im not sure which version of the deck I will be piloting they both have their nuances and quirks. I may be trying out a real spicy treat in the xantid swarm spot. If it goes well ill post back about it. Thanks for reading !

[warfordium]

Round 5 vs Mono black Grislestorm.

wat. this sounds interesting…

[sawatarix]

@sideboard-choices.
There is no perfect sideboard because The Metagame varies,depends on where you play.

Today there is a local legacy tournament with 5-6 Rounds in
Berlin where i come from.
I'm reloading my Machine Gun.
(Notable: Double Ad Nauseams in the Main)

My Sideboard looks like this:

3 abrupt decay
2 chain of vapout
3 dark confidant
1 notion thief
2 surgical extraction
2 xantid swarm
2 massacre

Notion thief comes in against the mirror and any grindy blue decks,especially those with jaces.
What notion thief did for me so far:

- totally mind twisted my opponents when they played brainstorm/jace.i always won the next turn,it was always 8 vs 1-2 cards :-)
- against TES in resp to Diminishing Returns :D
- against sneakshow or reanimator in resp to grizzel-draw
- have i mentioned that thief is the best counterspell against a enter the infinite?
My friend saw it and just commented "Infinite punishment for infinite greed!"
- once i just defeated my opponent with multiple thief-attacks and a mini-tendils on top if that.

I'm pondering to increase the number of Thiefs in my sideboard actually.
Maybe for the 3rd Bob although he is also pretty good in grindy games.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[sawatarix]

So i'm back, played 4:1:0
And 9:3:0 in games with the tendrils-machine gun.

2:0 12-Post
2:1 Esper Deathblade
2:0 Team America
2:0 Sneak Show
1:2 Esper Deathblade


2 Ad Nauseams were great all the time,they were mostly cast in my opponents eot to prepare a headshot during the next turn.

I'm not well prepared against Esper Deathblade,are there any hatebears in the deck?
I brought in 2 Massacre in all games but never hit one of those.
Not sure enough how to board against such a deck to be honest.

But well,together with the other tournament on thursday my record for this week is 8:1:0,feels pretty good :D
There are 2 months left until Bazaar of Moxen and i think Ant is one of the decks i can imagine to bring.

Until then,i'm gonna reload the gun.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[jtos84]

I forgot that reanimator boards in two more show and tells, so I got rid of the s/b grave hate, and put back in two dark confidants. I've been using mox diamond, and I am pretty satisfied with it.

[GoboLord]

After finishing my project "albino" ANT (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?10651-The-Awesome-Altered-Card-Art-Thread&p=790890&viewfull=1#post790890), I wanted to bring it to a real tournament again (my last tournament with ANT was some time early in 2013).

This is the list I played and how it went:
MANA
2 U. Sea
1 V. Island
1 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 P. Delta
4 S. Tarn
4 D.Rit
4 C.Rit
4 L.Petal
4 LED

non-MANA
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 I.Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 PiF
1 AdN
1 ToA

Side
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
3 Silence
1 Flusterstorm
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Massacre
1 ToA
1 I-GG
1 EtW

Round 1: Punishing Jund (2-0)
Round 2: Black & Taxes (2-0)
Round 3: UBr(g?) ANT (1-2)
Round 4: Patriot Delver (1-2)

Thoughts
* Silence weren't nearly as good as I expected them to be. Actually I think they are best to fight decks with Spell Snare + Stifle, while being randomly good in mirror matches
* I think I missplayed one Cabal Therapy in the ANT-mirror match. Here is what happend, I would like to know what you had called here.

In game 1 my OPP starts with Polluted Delta, LED, go (we both knew that this was a mirrormatch).
On my turn I cast Gitaxian Probe for 2 life, revealing: Brainstorm, Intuition, Past in Flames, Infernal Tutor, Duress, then I drew a Cabal Therapy. My hand looked like this: 2x Scalding Tarn, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED, Past in Flames, Cabal Therapy. I opted to pass the turn and possibly react to his Duress by casting Brainstorm. However, his hand was read to go off, would he find a Ritual or two in his Brainstorm - so I cast Cabal Therapy, which he responded to by playing Brainstorm.

QUESTION: Which card would you name here and why?

I'd like to hear some oppinions on that. Thanks!

[sawatarix]

Xantid Swarms seems always better than Silence ,especially in combonation with Cabal Theraphy.
Running 1 Tundra for just 3 Copies of Silence is not worth it i guess.

However,once i brewed also a version with 7 copies of silence (silence+chant) 2 white duals and no discard.
The main reason was the popularity of ant and the mirrorgame where i always wanted to have an active silence to disrupt my opponents combo.
But i wouldn't run it anymore.





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Machahiko]

In game 1 my OPP starts with Polluted Delta, LED, go (we both knew that this was a mirrormatch).
On my turn I cast Gitaxian Probe for 2 life, revealing: Brainstorm, Intuition, Past in Flames, Infernal Tutor, Duress, then I drew a Cabal Therapy. My hand looked like this: 2x Scalding Tarn, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED, Past in Flames, Cabal Therapy. I opted to pass the turn and possibly react to his Duress by casting Brainstorm. However, his hand was read to go off, would he find a Ritual or two in his Brainstorm - so I cast Cabal Therapy, which he responded to by playing Brainstorm.

QUESTION: Which card would you name here and why?

I'd like to hear some oppinions on that. Thanks!

I'm just a beginner, but I really like discussions about situations like this.

He will most likely hide his Infernal Tutor, unless he wants to try some jedi mind trick and hide something else on top of his library. I would probably go ahead and name either one of the rituals, dark or cabal ritual. If he finds black ritual he'll go t2 ad nauseam if he found land/petal/second ritual in the brainstorm. Or then he might guess that I'll name a ritual so he hides a ritual on top of his deck and he leaves infernal tutor in his hand! ;) My answer would be dark ritual.

[Sloshthedark]

@sloshthedark:

- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Hi, first of all I'm sorry for the delay, I'm really busy these days, I do follow the thread on mobile devices but that and time limits me to answer

You did? It was really interesting scenario I regret I hadn't taken a picture of it, because I think Bonde nextleveled himself into can't win situation...
I remember you and in fact watched 1 or 2 of your matches, curious how will your burg build do (I also follow tempo threads) while looking for my mates.

I'm glad you joined our ranks, enjoy that and some of the dirty tech like Thief =)

to answer:

Ad Nauseam - reasoning could be really long.. my list in an answer itself it's build to beat tempo - 1st I play 2xPiF +/- since 2 months after printing of the card and never looked back... 2nd EtW despite recent hate pulls some fast kills I need at lower costs and still have application lategame... lifetotal is not an issue - Am I dead? No - I don't care... Ad Nauseam preasures me to not play cards like Notion Thief I enjoy casting... I cast Ad Nauseam 1/10-3/10 of games and major of the occasions is because I draw it naturally, 1st turn Ad Nauseam doesn't lead into a kill the same turn majority of times... generaly I missed it only vs. 7 discard Elves and some postboard games time to time, nothing particular... I believe I'm favored in mirrors anyway (and my results confirm it)... TES is a deck where I play Ad Nauseam

Lightning Bolt - used to play it as a 1of in sb, I found myself bringing it in postboard in every non combo match-up, no 1 target is Deathrite shaman and Delver, not Thalia ... A, Shaman is a big problem sometimes, B, games "delver" decks win starts with that card, without fast pressure I can roll over them, it got into a point I enjoy facing Canadian... current UWR which replaced UGR, it seems, is a joke, it's slow as hell, the only card I'm scared of is RiP postboard C, yeah it hits Thalia too... D, has some synergy with current double ToA build - feels good killing people with bolts... E, People often think your tempo - fully experienced how good it is in Paris - with Volc - go or Eot bolt (one of my opponents still had Swords and Jace in hand after 2 Brainstorms =D ), they play around stifles, protect creatures and such... funny =) ... Magma jet - I had some thoughts about that and Fire//Ice, the CC is too prohibitive for B-E

the list is interesting, I haven't played Bob for a long time, 4 ToA is overkill =D, I believe Xantid Swarm = 3,

other than that I'm really looking forward to your experience and progress and I hope I could reply sooner next time... unless BS gets axed we will meet on BoM for sure...

[Sloshthedark]

In game 1 my OPP starts with Polluted Delta, LED, go (we both knew that this was a mirrormatch).
On my turn I cast Gitaxian Probe for 2 life, revealing: Brainstorm, Intuition, Past in Flames, Infernal Tutor, Duress, then I drew a Cabal Therapy. My hand looked like this: 2x Scalding Tarn, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED, Past in Flames, Cabal Therapy. I opted to pass the turn and possibly react to his Duress by casting Brainstorm. However, his hand was read to go off, would he find a Ritual or two in his Brainstorm - so I cast Cabal Therapy, which he responded to by playing Brainstorm.

QUESTION: Which card would you name here and why?

I'd like to hear some oppinions on that. Thanks!




oh you Ad Nauseam people...

1st of all land/petal+ritual (using Intuition), ritual+ritual/LED, is sure PiF loop I believe, land/petal+LED leads to Ad Nauseam and possible kill ... Ritual only lacks 1 storm (if I count correctly)...

my solution? - definitely cast Therapy, otherwise you're dead T2, or likely can't win T2, you want to minimize his chances and maximize yours - force him to play the BS ineffectively and try to win your turn... my call? the most of I'm dead combinations feat. DR so it's logical 1st choice (btw. I'm one of those who would keep IT in hand) ... my call is Duress and do not play a LED if BS is Cast and Duress is discarded, I want to win, not "not lose" and believe his chances are relatively low, there is even a chance you can try to win without tutor your T2 with blind PiF and double BS


// short report
haven't played since Paris so decklist is the same, Thursday, no of players is a positive surprise

R1 UWr CB
G1: top go, no turn 2 CB, I go for it, he Fows a LED, I PiF loop him
G2: top go - I keep nice 12 Goblins hand, draw ToA to pair with my PiF, no FoW = 1st turn ToA for healthy 20 and 35 mins to scout

R2 UBW something, no one plays Belcher today so I know what he's on, I dislike playing him, he is too confident, thinks too long and beats Bed Decks Palyer R1
G1: he Thoughtseizes me, I PiF him T3
G2: I suspect Gy hate and maybe Leyline (I sense some GP influence) so keep EtW no lander with probe, which doenst net me a land and shows double extraction+something, the game gets long and we get into situation him - 3 lands, 2x Bob, 15 life, Jace, BSK +2x Extraction in hand, me - DR+CR+LED+PIF+ETW+GP+x other cantrips in GY, IT on the stack 3B3R floating, storm 4... he lets it resolve, what will you do?


facepalm yourself and count the storm again... because Bed Deck Palyer was sitting next to us, beating his Bye opp in short manner, pointed out LED was played earlier and I miscounted the storm because of it and opps long thinking (Toa for 12 was my original idea), I went for a LED, opp extracted my DR and LEDs, so it's a GP lottery, no land again...

G3: I have rituals+fetch+xantid swarm+Sulfur Elemental hand (hmm what are you doing here).. he opens with Leyline... I have Trop->XS... for some reason (wasteland wtf?) I do not play Bayou drawn next turn, so I'm punnished by Stoneforge -> BSK, while drawing another Sulfur elemental... playing a MtG game (playing lands and such) I could have won easily...


R3 Monohate W eenie - more vintage bears than D+T, has Dazeowl, can't search Lion, ghost quarter, SotL and such
G1: he mulls 6 Mom- go, I discard a Thalia and kill him T2/3
G2: he keeps no white resource hand, takes time to get through wastelands and quarters (I have Toa for 14-16 all the time in hand), I bolt a revoker, he finds the plains, Sulfur Elemental kills thalia, attacks through Lion once, on his 17 life I ponder into EtW for 16 and ToA or 18


R4 Imperial Painter - I'm so glad I meet this guy again, haven't seen him for a long time... I saw 4 Trinispheres he had in SB before the tournament starts
G1 - he has T1 moon, I Swamp - TS, he has Grindstone and crap... for wtf I take Magus of the moon... my plan is 8-10 goblins next turn... he obv draws a painter, swamp is not a good prequisite do look for bolts, he has a pyro anyway...
G2+G3 - the games melt into one (and we played 2 other which I won - one through a Trinisphere =) G2 I kill him through moon, pyroblasting a Painter G3 he has a T1 moon again, I send 1 pyro to the bottom and regret it later

= 2:2 - generaly I played really badly, no excercise = no results, I could have won all the games besides UWr G1 when I got luckly opp misplayed...

[Machahiko]

Yeah, I tried to quickly count what he would need from top of his deck to win immediately with PiF in hand, but my estimate was that he would need to get pretty relevant cards. Ad Nauseam needs less to be cast and if you get to refill your hand you should be able to win t2/3 and possibly rip the hand of opponent to pieces while you get to keep a hand that the opponent shouldn't be able to win. That's why I immediately thought of AdN, instead of PiF even though it is clearly the better option here. If you get the cards to execute it. :wink:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

R2 UBW something, no one plays Belcher today so I know what he's on, I dislike playing him, he is too confident, thinks too long and beats Bed Decks Palyer R1
G1: he Thoughtseizes me, I PiF him T3
G2: I suspect Gy hate and maybe Leyline (I sense some GP influence) so keep EtW no lander with probe, which doenst net me a land and shows double extraction+something, the game gets long and we get into situation him - 3 lands, 2x Bob, 15 life, Jace, BSK +2x Extraction in hand, me - DR+CR+LED+PIF+ETW+GP+x other cantrips in GY, IT on the stack 3B3R floating, storm 4... he lets it resolve, what will you do?


facepalm yourself and count the storm again... because Bed Deck Palyer was sitting next to us, beating his Bye opp in short manner, pointed out LED was played earlier and I miscounted the storm because of it and opps long thinking (Toa for 12 was my original idea), I went for a LED, opp extracted my DR and LEDs, so it's a GP lottery, no land again...

It was WUBg Deathblade.

Imho Tom plays just enough fast to not be called for Slow Play. Also, I believe it's not intentional, he does it just because it helps him to not miss the obvious (like I do, because I'm lazy to think about things) and thus he puts quite some results; unless i'm mistaken, he leaves the lgs with a prize quite often.
Also, his slowness is overrated and it's just a local joke, sometimes there are other ppl who end in turns...


U mad at me bro? :frown:
Sry for the LED, but I really think that
a) I must correct you when both of you are wrong on game state,
b) you shouldn't let yourself get distracted by Tom's long "Thinking", in fact it's a time well spent as you had one more minute to think out your next play and finally
c) you've a bit next-leveled yourself, as for me it was clear that you'll go for the ToA and try to let him die to his own Confidants; in fact I was really surprised you've decided otherwise, as every other play was doomed due to his (unwillingness to play the) Extraction.

If only Tom had Extracted something beforehand and thus increased the storm count (and also dropped by another two life?), it'll be really easy. This way you needed to rely on his bad luck with Confidants, but as he had two of them out, and needed to tap out for JTMS on his next turn to even have any chance to manage those Bobs, I still believe you should have tried this play. Yep, you'd lose if he'd be lucky, but it was a desperate situation and these call for a desperate solutions.

I'm not even sure if there was any mistake on your part. You played the best you could and wasn't exactly lucky, then A+B happened over which you've had very little control. (Ok, one may argue you should count the storm right, but this happens; btw, that's why I never wrote storm-commas, but always spell-shortcuts on my combo turn.) So this leaves us with C where you brainfarted, but then again, it wasn't obvious that he'll lose on upkeep: he could easily BS or naturally reveal some lands, than play JTMS and Jacestrom any Ponder/EE/land on top and then simply overwhelm you with CA until (if ever) there will be no lands to put JTMS on top: which hardly ever happens with him drawing four cards per turn.

[anomie-p]

In game 1 my OPP starts with Polluted Delta, LED, go (we both knew that this was a mirrormatch).
On my turn I cast Gitaxian Probe for 2 life, revealing: Brainstorm, Intuition, Past in Flames, Infernal Tutor, Duress, then I drew a Cabal Therapy. My hand looked like this: 2x Scalding Tarn, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED, Past in Flames, Cabal Therapy. I opted to pass the turn and possibly react to his Duress by casting Brainstorm. However, his hand was read to go off, would he find a Ritual or two in his Brainstorm - so I cast Cabal Therapy, which he responded to by playing Brainstorm.

QUESTION: Which card would you name here and why?

I'd like to hear some oppinions on that. Thanks!


I think I'd name Duress.

My initial thought was Duress, but then, I started thinking, he can only hide one card he wants to keep if the brainstorm doesn't rip him a land, unless he want to not fetch for another full turn, etc, so maybe if you've got some kind of read on him, you can hit something else ... but then I realized, he fetched to play the brainstorm in the first place, what the hell was I thinking?)

I still probably name Duress. I'd rather he not hit my hand, holding what you were holding (your hand seems pretty close to having it to me, but without the brainstorm, less so - if he hides the duress on top and plays it next turn, I guess that's what happens).

I don't know if that's right/wrong, I'm not great at this game, it's just what I think I'd do.

[GoboLord]

Thank you for your replies on my Cabal-Therapy-question.

In that situation I called Duress.
My thoughts were pretty much explained by other posters already, but here's ashort summary:

* naming Infernal Tutor wasn't an option because he (1) might hide it on top and (2) won't need it to go off since he had Past in Flames and Intuition in hand
* so my choice was to either name a ritual (which was all he needed to go off), or Duress. If I named a ritual it would be Dark Ritual, given the fact that Cabal Ritual would not produce enough mana.
* however, I named Duress, because, if I called "Dark Rit" (or a 2nd LED, which would also enable the comboturn), he would cast Duress and grab my Brainstorm next turn - which would put me too far behind to go off before he does (since he was 'closer' to going off than I was).
* besides, IF he found Dark Ritual (or LED) with his Brainstorm he would probably hide it on top of his library to enable the combo turn

It turned out he found 2 Rituals and 1 Land in his Brainstorm and hid the 2 Rituals on top. So, I managed to take his Duress, but he went off next turn.

[Sloshthedark]

It was WUBg Deathblade.

Imho Tom plays just enough fast to not be called for Slow Play. Also, I believe it's not intentional, he does it just because it helps him to not miss the obvious (like I do, because I'm lazy to think about things) and thus he puts quite some results; unless i'm mistaken, he leaves the lgs with a prize quite often.
Also, his slowness is overrated and it's just a local joke, sometimes there are other ppl who end in turns...


U mad at me bro? :frown:
Sry for the LED, but I really think that
a) I must correct you when both of you are wrong on game state,
b) you shouldn't let yourself get distracted by Tom's long "Thinking", in fact it's a time well spent as you had one more minute to think out your next play and finally
c) you've a bit next-leveled yourself, as for me it was clear that you'll go for the ToA and try to let him die to his own Confidants; in fact I was really surprised you've decided otherwise, as every other play was doomed due to his (unwillingness to play the) Extraction.

If only Tom had Extracted something beforehand and thus increased the storm count (and also dropped by another two life?), it'll be really easy. This way you needed to rely on his bad luck with Confidants, but as he had two of them out, and needed to tap out for JTMS on his next turn to even have any chance to manage those Bobs, I still believe you should have tried this play. Yep, you'd lose if he'd be lucky, but it was a desperate situation and these call for a desperate solutions.

I'm not even sure if there was any mistake on your part. You played the best you could and wasn't exactly lucky, then A+B happened over which you've had very little control. (Ok, one may argue you should count the storm right, but this happens; btw, that's why I never wrote storm-commas, but always spell-shortcuts on my combo turn.) So this leaves us with C where you brainfarted, but then again, it wasn't obvious that he'll lose on upkeep: he could easily BS or naturally reveal some lands, than play JTMS and Jacestrom any Ponder/EE/land on top and then simply overwhelm you with CA until (if ever) there will be no lands to put JTMS on top: which hardly ever happens with him drawing four cards per turn.

No, it's completely my fault I was too unfocused // focused wrong direction ... I don't mind people taking their time where it's important, I dislike using time and bluffing thought process with every additional Island drawn as a strategic advantage in a 5$ entry tournament (like our friend Pavel used to do - it annoys me because I DO NOT care at all!!! I do not follow these signals, this kind of behaviour and do not use it for my decisions unless I know the people and how they play)... I also do not think it's that bad per se or take his right to do that, he's one of the people who mentaly/behaviorally force you to play his game - I have enough of this at work... winning or losing - it does not mean much to me, it's an obstacle but without motivation and thrill to beat it, simply said I do not enjoy playing with him thats all... for example my last round opponent, I was happy to play 2 more games despite losing and knowing a lot work awaits me at home

A, yeah but the boardstate was not wrong, the storm was ok but different card was played, I had the ToA 12 as a sure way to go, but while Tom was thinking I tried to solve the puzzle as solution felt really close, just made the decision A and went too deep into my thoughts, I sort if panicked inside because on 5 life it's not so sure he kills himself and I'm unable to reconstruct my thought process that lead me into my decision A and adopted decision B which was complicated and risky
B, not quite, one reason I do not use dice is all the turning distracts me (the other one is - some types of dice = storm.dec, therefore I make sure I never have one) and I distract myself apparently =) especially when tired
C, it's clear if he has 3 life left, not 5, so the mistake is obvious - choosing more risky path under false impression the other being worse

[Bed Decks Palyer]

No, it's completely my fault I was too unfocused // focused wrong direction ... I don't mind people taking their time where it's important, I dislike using time and bluffing thought process with every additional Island drawn as a strategic advantage in a 5$ entry tournament (like our friend Pavel used to do - it annoys me because I DO NOT care at all!!! I do not follow these signals, this kind of behaviour and do not use it for my decisions unless I know the people and how they play)... I also do not think it's that bad per se or take his right to do that, he's one of the people who mentaly/behaviorally force you to play his game - I have enough of this at work... winning or losing - it does not mean much to me, it's an obstacle but without motivation and thrill to beat it, simply said I do not enjoy playing with him thats all... for example my last round opponent, I was happy to play 2 more games despite losing and knowing a lot work awaits me at home
Yep, this is what I may sign.



A, yeah but the boardstate was not wrong, the storm was ok but different card was played, I had the ToA 12 as a sure way to go, but while Tom was thinking I tried to solve the puzzle as solution felt really close, just made the decision A and went too deep into my thoughts, I sort if panicked inside because on 5 life it's not so sure he kills himself and I'm unable to reconstruct my thought process that lead me into my decision A and adopted decision B which was complicated and risky
B, not quite, one reason I do not use dice is all the turning distracts me (the other one is - some types of dice = storm.dec, therefore I make sure I never have one) and I distract myself apparently =) especially when tired
C, it's clear if he has 3 life left, not 5, so the mistake is obvious - choosing more risky path under false impression the other being worse
Well, lesson learned. This is why I left the deck... :laugh:

Btw, I'll come on 22nd (or is it 23rd?) and I hope we'll meet!

[anomie-p]

(the other one is - some types of dice = storm.dec, therefore I make sure I never have one)

I played a test game last Friday with a buddy of mine, he was playing UWR Delver. I had Island (tapped, I'd just pondered), Misty, Misty on the board and a hand that could go off through anything but FoW, he had two flipped Delvers, a Jitte and three lands (one untapped) on the board, a spell pierce (which he flipped the delvers off of) and one unknown card in hand - I decided to just go for it, figuring letting that Jitte hit me and letting him draw another card while hoping for hand disruption is worse than just making him have it right now, since I have to go off next turn if I don't go off this turn ...

I played petal, he pierced, I said "Pierce resolves, storm count three" -> His response? "Oh, crap" - he thought I was playing S&T/sneak or something like that and going for petal, fetch, fetch, S&T (I am not sure why he pierced the petal thinking that, it seems like waiting for the S&T and piercing that is better if you think that's what I'm on, but hey)

Anyway, the 'don't leak what you're playing' bit there made me think of that. I've been tracking storm counts by just making marks on my score sheet notes, because I can make sure that sheet is gone from the pad when I go into the next match ...

[mishima_kazuya]

I played a test game last Friday with a buddy of mine, he was playing UWR Delver. I had Island (tapped, I'd just pondered), Misty, Misty on the board and a hand that could go off through anything but FoW, he had two flipped Delvers, a Jitte and three lands (one untapped) on the board, a spell pierce (which he flipped the delvers off of) and one unknown card in hand - I decided to just go for it, figuring letting that Jitte hit me and letting him draw another card while hoping for hand disruption is worse than just making him have it right now, since I have to go off next turn if I don't go off this turn ...

I played petal, he pierced, I said "Pierce resolves, storm count three" -> His response? "Oh, crap" - he thought I was playing S&T/sneak or something like that and going for petal, fetch, fetch, S&T (I am not sure why he pierced the petal thinking that, it seems like waiting for the S&T and piercing that is better if you think that's what I'm on, but hey)

Anyway, the 'don't leak what you're playing' bit there made me think of that. I've been tracking storm counts by just making marks on my score sheet notes, because I can make sure that sheet is gone from the pad when I go into the next match ...

From playing this deck a lot, I have gotten to the point where I almost never write down my storm count on the first few spells.
That is usually enough for a rare free win as you demonstrated.

[DarkJester]

From playing this deck a lot, I have gotten to the point where I almost never write down my storm count on the first few spells.
That is usually enough for a rare free win as you demonstrated.

+1

[nevilshute]

I played a test game last Friday with a buddy of mine, he was playing UWR Delver. I had Island (tapped, I'd just pondered), Misty, Misty on the board and a hand that could go off through anything but FoW, he had two flipped Delvers, a Jitte and three lands (one untapped) on the board, a spell pierce (which he flipped the delvers off of) and one unknown card in hand - I decided to just go for it, figuring letting that Jitte hit me and letting him draw another card while hoping for hand disruption is worse than just making him have it right now, since I have to go off next turn if I don't go off this turn ...

I played petal, he pierced, I said "Pierce resolves, storm count three" -> His response? "Oh, crap" - he thought I was playing S&T/sneak or something like that and going for petal, fetch, fetch, S&T (I am not sure why he pierced the petal thinking that, it seems like waiting for the S&T and piercing that is better if you think that's what I'm on, but hey)

Anyway, the 'don't leak what you're playing' bit there made me think of that. I've been tracking storm counts by just making marks on my score sheet notes, because I can make sure that sheet is gone from the pad when I go into the next match ...

Agree with this. Conversely, becoming known as 'the storm player' can leave you with people mulliganing aggressively against you. I believe that storm is better in larger tournaments where people don't know you (guess that can be said of most decks).

[Lemnear]

Agree with this. Conversely, becoming known as 'the storm player' can leave you with people mulliganing aggressively against you. I believe that storm is better in larger tournaments where people don't know you (guess that can be said of most decks).

So true

[JPoJohnson]

Agree with this. Conversely, becoming known as 'the storm player' can leave you with people mulliganing aggressively against you. I believe that storm is better in larger tournaments where people don't know you (guess that can be said of most decks).

Then again Bryant Cook recently top 8'd a large tournament a weekend ago so tight play can also get you where you need to be (;

[nevilshute]

Then again Bryant Cook recently top 8'd a large tournament a weekend ago so tight play can also get you where you need to be (;

Well yes, obviously :)

I'm just saying, it's not a non-factor.

[gregtron]

From playing this deck a lot, I have gotten to the point where I almost never write down my storm count on the first few spells.
That is usually enough for a rare free win as you demonstrated.

On the other side of the coin, sometimes I'll announce storm count when I have no intention of comboing them. Land, Petal, "Storm is one", cantrip, "Storm is 2", etc. Some people like to counter your cantrips, and even though that's normally incorrect, it's annoying as hell. You can also bait some players into countering something irrelevant by putting dat tendrilz fear in 'em so you can resolve a Xantid Swarm or a Therapy to help clear a path.

I've also found that it's hard to keep it under wraps that you're storming people out. In the US, at least, people tend to crowd around combo players in-game, or complain at length when they lose to combo. Doing things like opening Misty Rainforest into Volcanic to play a turn 1 Ponder might make a lot of people think you're a RUG player with a slow hand, but in the end we all really just need to learn how to beat the hate. Tight play > mind games, every time.

[mishima_kazuya]

On the other side of the coin, sometimes I'll announce storm count when I have no intention of comboing them. Land, Petal, "Storm is one", cantrip, "Storm is 2", etc. Some people like to counter your cantrips, and even though that's normally incorrect, it's annoying as hell. You can also bait some players into countering something irrelevant by putting dat tendrilz fear in 'em so you can resolve a Xantid Swarm or a Therapy to help clear a path.

I've also found that it's hard to keep it under wraps that you're storming people out. In the US, at least, people tend to crowd around combo players in-game, or complain at length when they lose to combo. Doing things like opening Misty Rainforest into Volcanic to play a turn 1 Ponder might make a lot of people think you're a RUG player with a slow hand, but in the end we all really just need to learn how to beat the hate. Tight play > mind games, every time.

Plan B: Build up a local reputation in the region as the guy who is 50% on Maverick(or any other midrange strategy) and 50% on AnT.
Therefore you are 50% to have your opponent keeping a bad hand in the dark. :tongue:

[JPoJohnson]

Plan B: Build up a local reputation in the region as the guy who is 50% on Maverick(or any other midrange strategy) and 50% on AnT.
Therefore you are 50% to have your opponent keeping a bad hand in the dark. :tongue:

Until R1 is over and everyone knows :tongue:

[jtos84]

I think preordain is the dead give away someone is on storm. I am only running two (not for that reason). Vault and Mox Diamond have replaced them. I have found it is fairly easy to throw your opponent off by pretending you are considering casting a Force of Will every time they want to cast a spell. This is one great way to get them to tap out, especially in the current meta because of all the Spell Pierces. This meta game seems to cause me to want to cast the vault, or a quick Ad Nauseum, and that is why I am playing with Diamond which is working really well.

[mishima_kazuya]

I think preordain is the dead give away someone is on storm. I am only running two (not for that reason). Vault and Mox Diamond have replaced them. I have found it is fairly easy to throw your opponent off by pretending you are considering casting a Force of Will every time they want to cast a spell. This is one great way to get them to tap out, especially in the current meta because of all the Spell Pierces. This meta game seems to cause me to want to cast the vault, or a quick Ad Nauseum, and that is why I am playing with Diamond which is working really well.

I am not saying to cut Preordains just to have information advantage. I am not counting on winning a tournament because my opponents kept bad hands in the dark.

I dislike Mox Diamond in this deck, since lands are generally are a premium here. AnT is flexible enough to run the long game, so making land drops is somewhat important. If I really want to cut Preordain for another mana source, I would rather just play a 5 color land or even a Crystal Vein/City of Traitors.

[jtos84]

I am not saying to cut Preordains just to have information advantage. I am not counting on winning a tournament because my opponents kept bad hands in the dark.

I dislike Mox Diamond in this deck, since lands are generally are a premium here. AnT is flexible enough to run the long game, so making land drops is somewhat important. If I really want to cut Preordain for another mana source, I would rather just play a 5 color land or even a Crystal Vein/City of Traitors.

I was already playing with two Preordains. I have been for quite a while. Normally I really do not like Mox Diamond, but the metagame is making it work out well for me. If the meta goes back to less storm hate, I would rather play Grim Tutor in the main, get rid of Mox Diamond, and play with three Preordains.

[sawatarix]

My buddy and i were trolling around yesterday about mindtricking the opponent and he suggested an old and antique cantrip:
Portent.
Well,i's like Ponder#5 which draws the cards not immediately but in the next upkeep so it's supposed to be a cantrip to set up a hand and load the gun rather than a card in the actual combo turn.

So What does portent tell our opponent?
Actually,...that you are a budget storm player whatever.
Don't take this suggestion to seriously guys :D



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[anomie-p]

Tight play > mind games, every time.

That's kind of the sweet thing about the island/misty/misty I had on the board at the time. I knew he had wasteland in the deck, and I knew he didn't have stifles. I wasn't even attempting to trick him, I was just letting my fetches sit because I had no reason to use them yet, neither get black without getting a dual, grabbing a dual opens me up to wasteland, I already have blue, etc.

(and, well, I guess it being misty instead of say scalding tarn ... but I'd have to take apart my UWR delver to put tarns in my ant, which is why my ant runs misty - I get to let my 11 year old kick my behind w/ meddling mages and try to play through them ... I am 1-2 in practice matches against that kid, he seems to *always* get the meddling mages :D )

[Sloshthedark]

My buddy and i were trolling around yesterday about mindtricking the opponent and he suggested an old and antique cantrip:
Portent.
Well,i's like Ponder#5 which draws the cards not immediately but in the next upkeep so it's supposed to be a cantrip to set up a hand and load the gun rather than a card in the actual combo turn.

So What does portent tell our opponent?
Actually,...that you are a budget storm player whatever.
Don't take this suggestion to seriously guys :D



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

... Also tried this before ;) the reason is you can rearrange opps library... The card is good, fun, has great art but unfortunate nombo with PiF disqualifies it

[sawatarix]

I tested 2-3 lightning bolt in my deck the last 2 days instead of 1 cantrip,1 lotus petal and 1 thoughtseize.

Bolting a shaman makes a lot of sense if your primary route to victory is only past in flames (and tutor chain as always).

However i tested the bolts in my 2 Ad Nauseam List and they weren't really necessary because i don't care about creatures in g1 (except hatebears g1,a rare thing)

I then tested chain if vapour in the bolt slots,which is also an removal spell that bounces all annoying permanents or just delays a shaman by 1 turn.
(Well and you can bounce your own led in the comboturn to get more storm counts,...)

Finally i wasn't sure about these 3,let's say "removal" slots.
Are they worth it? Isn't it just better to fill them with the cantrips and discard spells again.
To be honest i'm not sure.
(To have both cantrip and removal,i also thought about repeal but that's another story)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[gregtron]

I tested 2-3 lightning bolt in my deck the last 2 days instead of 1 cantrip,1 lotus petal and 1 thoughtseize.

Bolting a shaman makes a lot of sense if your primary route to victory is only past in flames (and tutor chain as always).

However i tested the bolts in my 2 Ad Nauseam List and they weren't really necessary because i don't care about creatures in g1 (except hatebears g1,a rare thing)

I then tested chain if vapour in the bolt slots,which is also an removal spell that bounces all annoying permanents or just delays a shaman by 1 turn.
(Well and you can bounce your own led in the comboturn to get more storm counts,...)

Finally i wasn't sure about these 3,let's say "removal" slots.
Are they worth it? Isn't it just better to fill them with the cantrips and discard spells again.
To be honest i'm not sure.
(To have both cantrip and removal,i also thought about repeal but that's another story)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Did you ever use bolt to facilitate a kill? There have been times when I was a 3 points or so away from a clean Tendrils kill, so by extension, there have been games when I was one Lightning Bolt away from a kill. The manabase is stretched thin already, though, with having to cast Past in Flames, Dark Ritual, and Abrupt Decay while fetching basic lands to avoid the Wasteland blowout. It would be nice to Bolt, combo, flashback Bolt to generate two extra storm while adding three storm worth of damage, but shit, RRR is pretty hard to make.

[Lemnear]

If I would have made it in time ... job issues (https://twitter.com/ValeLemnear/statuses/441638031674839040)

Mana is adjusted to the Wishes. That basically enables me to switch to "Grinding Station" on the fly and to have mainboard outs to crap

[R3D]

If I would have made it in time ... job issues (https://twitter.com/ValeLemnear/statuses/441638031674839040)

Mana is adjusted to the Wishes. That basically enables me to switch to "Grinding Station" on the fly and to have mainboard outs to crap

I like your idea! Interested in your list.
Nice that Ant has maindeck outs to diff kinds of hate this way!

[NoizeMe]

If I would have made it in time ... job issues (https://twitter.com/ValeLemnear/statuses/441638031674839040)

Mana is adjusted to the Wishes. That basically enables me to switch to "Grinding Station" on the fly and to have mainboard outs to crap

What did you cut for the Wishes?
One AdN obviously. Also Preordains? Do you still play Top then?

I was experimenting with Clutch of the Undercity since lately. It's nice that it can be transmuted into Tendrils and PiF and also is not entirely irrelevant on it's own. Also it can only be stifled.
Of cause I cut AdN and added another PiF and Tendrils to the deck.
Postboard it can also fetch up Massacre.

Any thoughts on Clutch?

[Lemnear]

What did you cut for the Wishes?
One AdN obviously. Also Preordains? Do you still play Top then?

I was experimenting with Clutch of the Undercity since lately. It's nice that it can be transmuted into Tendrils and PiF and also is not entirely irrelevant on it's own. Also it can only be stifled.
Of cause I cut AdN and added another PiF and Tendrils to the deck.
Postboard it can also fetch up Massacre.

Any thoughts on Clutch?

Never played top. Never played Preordain. Cutted Ad Nauseam to only run the 5 "engine/kill-cards" in the picture. Wishing for Telemin in combo matchups is boarderline costwise. Wanted to give the idea a spin as Julian Knab was in town yesterday for an afterwork tourney, but didn't make it out of the office in time. 45min drive at 19pm to be already too late and hungry wasn't appealing.

Clutch can at least dig up Massacre in postboard games. Not sure if the cost/effect is worth it considering the fact that it Acts as a budget Grim Tutor. The lack of the later card was also my reason to toy around with the DW

[sawatarix]

I'm wondering about our sideboard,is there a reason why there aren't 2-3 copies of defense grid?
Very similar to xantid Swarm,but you can cast it and then just continue comboing.
Many players leave some removal spells in their deck because they fear swarm so it would be great to make those cards dead.
Usually they don't board in decay.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

I'm wondering about our sideboard,is there a reason why there aren't 2-3 copies of defense grid?
Very similar to xantid Swarm,but you can cast it and then just continue comboing.
Many players leave some removal spells in their deck because they fear swarm so it would be great to make those cards dead.
Usually they don't board in decay.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I can imagine a lot. Don't expect too much from a list I threw together yesterday morning before heading to work. There was no testing and stuff; just brainstorming over 3 basic lands between door and street :)

[Lordofthestringz]

I'm wondering about our sideboard,is there a reason why there aren't 2-3 copies of defense grid?
Very similar to xantid Swarm,but you can cast it and then just continue comboing.
Many players leave some removal spells in their deck because they fear swarm so it would be great to make those cards dead.
Usually they don't board in decay.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I have seen some lists that play it, Eric Rill used it on his last top 4 at a SCG event.

I only side Xantid against Sneak and Show and Merfolk, and it is so goooooooood in those matchups, but i agree that Defense Grid might be worth testing.

[Machahiko]

Defense Grid is good against taxing counters, but doesn't do a thing against the worst offender - hard counters. Xantid Swarm and silence effects break them both, Carpet of Flowers/rituals kill off taxing counters. I'm not too happy about having another SB option against taxing counters when they're already so weak because our deck is already "full of mana".

[jtos84]

While it is probably technically not wrong to play defense grid I can see some problems with it. You run the risk of not being able to cast infernal tutor in certain situations if it still in your hand. You might have to use a ritual or a petal to play it. It could actually keep you from protecting your hand with brainstorm on your opponents turn. That is a definite drawback.

I think it all comes down to your experience with the deck. S/bing can be a mess while learning to play the deck really well. In this meta I think Xantid swarm of some number is the right call. Of course this is a difficult meta for storm, so you might as well try out whatever you think can work.

[Disciple of Skulls]

I've always disliked playing a fourth color in my storm deck, so I've been playing with defense grids from the beginning. The second Grid you draw isn't bad either. It might cost you the turn to cast it, but there is no way anyone in legacy can muster up 6 mana to pay for a counter the turn after.

Another advantage is that it also is counterable by spellsnare, taking one more hard counter away from Infernal tutors. It's fun dropping it off show and tell as well.

I guess the current advantage I have with the grid is that next to no one expects it, I have no idea how counter magic based decks adapt once it becomes a more popular choice amongst decks.

[Royce Walter]

Another advantage is that it also is counterable by spellsnare, taking one more hard counter away from Infernal tutors.

This is a disadvantage. Chant effects make Spell Snares blanks. Grid does not.

[JamieW89]

I don't really like Defense Grid in a storm deck without Silence effects, since discard + grid does not beat multiple counters like chant + grid would.

4-0'd a local event last Sunday, with practically the same MD as BoM, played a third Decay and Top in the board because I expected a fair amount of Miracles. I beat Deathblade (2-0), UW Miracle Blade (2-1), U Omnishow (2-1) and UB Tezzeret Control (2-1). Had a pretty sweet play versus Tezz, when he cast Transmute Artifact with a Chalice@0 & Baleful Strix in play with 1 open mana (planning to get 3sphere from Strix). I decayed the Strix in response, which forced him to sac the Chalice@1 for a Chalice@0, after which I was able to set up a win.

[sawatarix]

Thank you all for your feedback to defense grid.

Next,i wanna know from you how you beat these 3 decks in particular because i have the most trouble with them:

- UW Miracle

- Reanimator

- Team America


Do we need specific sideboard cards against them? (my buddy suggested pithin needle -> senseis devining top)
Please give me some feedback on that, i just need some input concerning these 3 matchups.

Thank you !


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Jin Gitaxias]

you just listed our 3 worst matchups, it is pretty normal that you won't win a lot of those but I will try to give you a short guide anyway

Miracles:
Game 1 I think you are favoured because they do not have that much disruption, prevent them from setting up balance+ top and you should be fine. After sideboard I board in confidants, carpet of flowers and abrupt decay. Abrupt decay should be pretty self explanatory, dark confidant makes it really easy for you to natural tendrils them when they are at 16 our lower and the added card advantage makes it easier for you to overload their counters. The added cabal therapy flashback is also really good vs this matchup, even more so then others. Carpet of flowers is also good if the plan is to overload their counters. It generally makes enough mana to allow you to cast past in flames twice in 1 turn, and that should be enough.

Reanimator is a combo mirror, and these matchups are usually a coinflip. Because of their combination of both discard and countermagic the coin is slightly weighted in their favor. Game 1 is a pure race wich you are likely to lose if they untap after reanimating Griselbrand. Post sideboard I bring in 3 xantid swarms because it lets you ignore griselbrand's draw when you are ready to go off. I also happen to have 1 karakas in my deck wich is really good vs them.

As for Team America, I just give up on this matchup because I can not find a way to get a win percentage over something like 30 or 40%.

For reference, my list:
4 misty
4 delta
2 sea
1 volcanic
1 tropical
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp

4 dark rit, cabal rit, petal, LED,tutor,cabal therapy,brainstorm,ponder,gitaxian probe
3 duress
2 preordain
1 PiF, tendrils, ad nauseam, sensei's divining top

SIDEBOARD
3 xantid swarm
3 abrupt decay
2 chain of vapor
2 dark confidant
2 carpet of flowers
1 karakas
1 empty the warrens
1 massacre

[sawatarix]

Thank you for the input.

Today i tested a lot against miracle with the following sideboarding:

-4 infernal tutor
-4 lions eye diamond
+3 tendrils of agony
+2 empty the warrens
+3 abrupt decay

After sideboarding the games went like this:
We both grind a lot until i have 2 stormspells in hand (2 tendrils or tendrils+empty)3-4 rituals and a decay to deal with counterbalance or canonist .8 spells into tendrils is also fine.
At end of his turn i decay the hate permanent and then play either double tendrils through countermagic or tendrils - empty
Well it worked,the mu felt like at least 50:50 postboard,maybe even better.
The strategy is also called grinding station which is invented by my buddy jona.
(Sidenote: i'm not a big fan of empties,should be dark confidants to fill the hand as quickly as possible)

G1 against miracle still feels horrible,if they resolve top the game is almost in their favour because they can now hide a counterspell on top of library,that really sucks.





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[JPoJohnson]

Thank you for the input.

Today i tested a lot against miracle with the following sideboarding:

-4 infernal tutor
-4 lions eye diamond
+3 tendrils of agony
+2 empty the warrens
+3 abrupt decay

After sideboarding the games went like this:
We both grind a lot until i have 2 stormspells in hand (2 tendrils or tendrils+empty)3-4 rituals and a decay to deal with counterbalance or canonist .8 spells into tendrils is also fine.
At end of his turn i decay the hate permanent and then play either double tendrils through countermagic or tendrils - empty
Well it worked,the mu felt like at least 50:50 postboard,maybe even better.
The strategy is also called grinding station which is invented by my buddy jona.
(Sidenote: i'm not a big fan of empties,should be dark confidants to fill the hand as quickly as possible)

G1 against miracle still feels horrible,if they resolve top the game is almost in their favour because they can now hide a counterspell on top of library,that really sucks.





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I'm assuming no Ad Nauseam in the mainboard in this instance?

[Azdraël]

Miracle after side is a really good match-up.

Side-in Decay, all your Empty ( I love having 2 copies of it in my sb), more tendrils, Bobs, xantids and even an extra nauseam as an EOT lure. They won't be able to cope with all our threats.

[jtos84]

I was thinking defense grid cost three mana, but it is only two. Against miracles it is probably good, but I think the storm hate is a little over the top anymore. I played in a tournament and went 3-1-2. I lost to Esperblade game one because my tendrils was removed by a shaman; won game two because they mulled into leyline of sanctity with only a karakas for many turns, then lost game three to two deathrite shamans, leyline of sanctity, and meddling mage. Against miracles I lost to a karakas clique repeat effect (which is not that bad) after I stripped three or four counters and a counterbalance out of their hand. Game two I lost to double ethersworn canonist. I could have gotten it, but my chain of vapor was spell pierced. Its fairly difficult to play storm in the first place, but when you know that is what you face all day no matter where you play it is not to awesome.

[Azdraël]

Nothing to do with the latest posts but I came up with Notion Thief as a x2 sideboard tech. Has anyone been really testing it so far?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Nothing to do with the latest posts but I came up with Notion Thief as a x2 sideboard tech. Has anyone been really testing it so far?
Slosh. PM him.



Defense Grid is good against taxing counters, but doesn't do a thing against the worst offender - hard counters.
Pardon? Force of Will for :3: and a card to pitch is brutal. More so is Force for :6::u::u:
I don't know what other hard counters are played (except for a singleton Counterspell here and there), but Grid is good against any of them.

[Sloshthedark]

Nothing to do with the latest posts but I came up with Notion Thief as a x2 sideboard tech. Has anyone been really testing it so far?

2x in my sideboard since it's release, until the tech gets spread and expected I do not feel a need for change

why? - Ant is the only deck which can reasonably catch T2 BS ~oops I win, I play it instead of Dark Confidant it's better vs. combo, mirrors especially (usually there are multiple Ant players in your LGS), faster, more impact, has synergy with my list, I do not play Ad Nauseam so CC is not a problem, is absolutely unexpected, is a fun card to play

application
- Miracles, hard control - prevents SDT counters, slows down opps development, Jace, 2-attacks make in Hand ToA reasonable strategy, sometimes catches lategame BS, unfortunately gets weaker with REBs
- U based combo - gives you strong edge through entire game

I do not usually use it vs. blue based "midrange" - not enough targets, not enough impact



...actually I had a really long post ready yesterday until blue death stifled my computer... maybe I'll find some time next week

[Azdraël]

I'd indeed appreciate if you could develop it more, thx!

[jtos84]

For those that might be interested, I think this is the correct s/b for the meta game.

2 Chain of Vapor
1 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Grim Tutor
2 Ignorant Bliss

Ignorant bliss comes in for TA, or anything running heavy discard. Grim Tutor is for matches like reanimator, esperdeathblade, or anything not running a bunch of spell pierces. Xantid swarm is for heavy counter obv. Massacre is for pretty much anything blue anymore since hatebears are all over. Dread of Night is for death of taxes, only if you are running Vault in the main in my opinion. Abrupt decay x4 for chalice decks, and miracles. Karakas for reanimator, death and taxes, and show and tell (If you feel like it). Chain of Vapor x2 in nearly every game 2 and 3 against any deck except the mirror.

As good as dark confidant is, I cannot really justify using it in this meta. The matches where it was good were already in our favor, so knowing the ins and outs of the deck is more important than using Bob right now I would say.

[davelin]

For those that might be interested, I think this is the correct s/b for the meta game.

2 Chain of Vapor
1 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Grim Tutor
2 Ignorant Bliss

Ignorant bliss comes in for TA, or anything running heavy discard. Grim Tutor is for matches like reanimator, esperdeathblade, or anything not running a bunch of spell pierces. Xantid swarm is for heavy counter obv. Massacre is for pretty much anything blue anymore since hatebears are all over. Dread of Night is for death of taxes, only if you are running Vault in the main in my opinion. Abrupt decay x4 for chalice decks, and miracles. Karakas for reanimator, death and taxes, and show and tell (If you feel like it). Chain of Vapor x2 in nearly every game 2 and 3 against any deck except the mirror.

As good as dark confidant is, I cannot really justify using it in this meta. The matches where it was good were already in our favor, so knowing the ins and outs of the deck is more important than using Bob right now I would say.

Ignorant Bliss seems like old SB tech for discard heavy decks. Holding up 2 mana to Bliss instead of casting your 'trips doesn't seem like what we want to do.

[Sloshthedark]

For those that might be interested, I think this is the correct s/b for the meta game.

2 Chain of Vapor
1 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Grim Tutor
2 Ignorant Bliss

Ignorant bliss comes in for TA, or anything running heavy discard. Grim Tutor is for matches like reanimator, esperdeathblade, or anything not running a bunch of spell pierces. Xantid swarm is for heavy counter obv. Massacre is for pretty much anything blue anymore since hatebears are all over. Dread of Night is for death of taxes, only if you are running Vault in the main in my opinion. Abrupt decay x4 for chalice decks, and miracles. Karakas for reanimator, death and taxes, and show and tell (If you feel like it). Chain of Vapor x2 in nearly every game 2 and 3 against any deck except the mirror.

As good as dark confidant is, I cannot really justify using it in this meta. The matches where it was good were already in our favor, so knowing the ins and outs of the deck is more important than using Bob right now I would say.

which metagame? for example my Thursday had - 3x ANT (Including me), Canadian Threshold, BURG America, Team America, 4c Deathblade, UWR tempo, Mono W hatebears, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, BWg Deadguy, GWr Enchantress, Goblins, Burn, Mono R Sneak Attack, UGr Cloudpost, Eva Green (bold are top 5 performers)

If I had a Grim tutor I'd MD it, Ignorant Bliss doesn't make much sense for me same as Vault-DoN argument - I like LDV as a general setup spell not a singleton tutor (I rarely went for more than 1 spin), G splash is heavy I would not play that without 2 G lands, actually Dark Confidant could be interesting here instead of 2 bliss+tutor and trim 1 AD in favor of a storm spell...

It's all about personal preference+playstyle after all

@Azdraël - look up

[jtos84]

That would be the metagame I am talking about. TA is such a difficult match that I think ignorant bliss is probably the best option. I don't think its about play style when we talk about one deck. I think many players are just missing about half of the lines of play. Here is an example. I am playing against TES, and they have confidant and cabal therapies trying to rip up my hand, but they waste there spells basically just trying to prevent me from going off while pressuring my life total with Bob. I was probably going to win any way, but even people who top 8 with the deck usually face quite a few people who don't know how to play against it, and they themselves are obviously missing plays.

[Lemnear]

That would be the metagame I am talking about. TA is such a difficult match that I think ignorant bliss is probably the best option. I don't think its about play style when we talk about one deck. I think many players are just missing about half of the lines of play. Here is an example. I am playing against TES, and they have confidant and cabal therapies trying to rip up my hand, but they waste there spells basically just trying to prevent me from going off while pressuring my life total with Bob. I was probably going to win any way, but even people who top 8 with the deck usually face quite a few people who don't know how to play against it, and they themselves are obviously missing plays.

Wait, what? Since when does TES play Bob?! I guess I would know if

[Azdraël]

That would be the metagame I am talking about. TA is such a difficult match that I think ignorant bliss is probably the best option. I don't think its about play style when we talk about one deck. I think many players are just missing about half of the lines of play. Here is an example. I am playing against TES, and they have confidant and cabal therapies trying to rip up my hand, but they waste there spells basically just trying to prevent me from going off while pressuring my life total with Bob. I was probably going to win any way, but even people who top 8 with the deck usually face quite a few people who don't know how to play against it, and they themselves are obviously missing plays.

Considering this post, you may be the guy I've been playing against this afternoon on MWS. And no, I wasn't playing TES at all.

@sloshthedark: cheers, this was indeed what I thought about.

[sawatarix]

Well,i went to a legacytourney with my buddy ("cabaltherapy" here on the source) in magdeburg,germany.

Although i was a bit tired of the day before,i started the morning with the best drink known to men:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/17/zyqebuqa.jpg

The judge announed 5 rounds of swiss and a top4 and i loaded my machine gun:

"— the Machine Gun —" by Thiele Kai

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Spells:45
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

Lands:15
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre

During the swiss i faced Team america,solidarity,miracles,deathblade and the mirror and finally achieved the first place undefeated.
I'm pretty satisfied with the deck how it looks and performs, a lot of people asked me about the thoughtseizes and preordains instead of gitaxian probes and therapys,to be honest:
Test it !
I personall like it a lot because most of the time if you dont have probe or another duress to have a peek at your opponents hand your therapy just becomes pretty bad and doesn't hit a thing.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[cheerios]

Well,i went to a legacytourney with my buddy ("cabaltherapy" here on the source) in magdeburg,germany.

Although i was a bit tired of the day before,i started the morning with the best drink known to men:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/17/zyqebuqa.jpg

The judge announed 5 rounds of swiss and a top4 and i loaded my machine gun:

"— the Machine Gun —" by Thiele Kai

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Spells:45
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

Lands:15
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre

During the swiss i faced Team america,solidarity,miracles,deathblade and the mirror and finally achieved the first place undefeated.
I'm pretty satisfied with the deck how it looks and performs, a lot of people asked me about the thoughtseizes and preordains instead of gitaxian probes and therapys,to be honest:
Test it !
I personall like it a lot because most of the time if you dont have probe or another duress to have a peek at your opponents hand your therapy just becomes pretty bad and doesn't hit a thing.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Interesting list! Which match ups do you go for double ETW? How were the flusterstorms?

Cheers

[sawatarix]

The second empty goes in against tempodecks and miracle for random 6-8 goblins during the first 1-2 turns,they often get there.

Flusterstorms are great tools to fight the mirror and other combo-decks,you simply play control until you can go off,i love that strategy.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[anomie-p]

This might be a terrible question, but basically being new to the deck, I was curious, and a search of the thread didn't really turn up anything other than the duress question.

Is a one of Intuition worth trying? (over one preordain). It seems like you'd be able to grab some sweet cards at times (3x of what you're missing, like, say, crit/crit/crit, tutor/tutor/tutor, or LED/LED/LED, or even AdN/PiF/Tendrils, although I guess there's some risk in potentially binning your win card).

I might try it at this week's legacy, if I can borrow/buy some Intuitions (which seems like a card I probably want access to for *some* deck, anyway), but it seems like maybe something that people have tried and rejected or there's some obvious thing I'm missing ... or maybe if you're going to run a 3-mana spell Grim Tutor is just better anyway, or something (I don't have any Grim Tutor)

Edit: or EOT planning on grabbing 3 therapy, if they force, I'm probably happy - I just don't know if I'm thinking about 'fun plays' here or if it's actually something that would help me win a little more ...

[Lemnear]

This might be a terrible question, but basically being new to the deck, I was curious, and a search of the thread didn't really turn up anything other than the duress question.

Is a one of Intuition worth trying? (over one preordain). It seems like you'd be able to grab some sweet cards at times (3x of what you're missing, like, say, crit/crit/crit, tutor/tutor/tutor, or LED/LED/LED, or even AdN/PiF/Tendrils, although I guess there's some risk in potentially binning your win card).

I might try it at this week's legacy, if I can borrow/buy some Intuitions (which seems like a card I probably want access to for *some* deck, anyway), but it seems like maybe something that people have tried and rejected or there's some obvious thing I'm missing ... or maybe if you're going to run a 3-mana spell Grim Tutor is just better anyway, or something (I don't have any Grim Tutor)

Intuition doesn't Tutor for the one-off you need, you can't chain it with PIF for a lethal combo and still costs 3 mana. It just isn't good enough. Grim Tutor, LDV or even additional cantrips do a better job for their costs ... that's all

[anomie-p]

Intuition doesn't Tutor for the one-off you need

By that do you mean you can't get just one of AdN, PiF or Tendrils and stick it in your hand? (I just want to make sure I understand).

[Lemnear]

By that do you mean you can't get just one of AdN, PiF or Tendrils and stick it in your hand? (I just want to make sure I understand).

You can't Grim Tutor for PIF and flashback Grim Tutor again. Intuition doesn't allow such a line. If you want to grab a specific card, your opponent can easily dumb exactly that one and leave you with problems. Grim Tutor and stuff don't allow your opponent do foil your plan

[sawatarix]

Intuition seems like a good (but somehow clunky) card to setup a pif-kill.
Depending on your cards in hand intuition can search for past in flames,cabalritual and infernal tutor (if your hand has only mana) or 2 rituals and pif if tutor is sitting in your hand.
Obviously,intuition should be cast at your opponents eot to save mana at your turn.

While this sounds kinda helpful
It's not that necessary in my opinion and even dangerous in g2/g3 against surgical extractions.
So if intuition is an option,it should be a g1 card and there a better ones.

So all in all,intuition has no home in ant i guess


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[YamiJoey]

You can Intuition PiF/AN/Tendrils -> PiF -> Intuition cast everything you want if necessary. Not sure when/why you're recasting Intuition here, but it gets you a PiF, AN, and makes your AN able to go off into lower life totals, having only things that cost 1 or 2, depending on how many Intuitions you're playing. You don'y care what they declare, you get PiF and can cast Ad Nauseum either way.

[sawatarix]

Pif-> ad nauseam is 9 mana right?
With that amount of mana you can just win with pif-loop anyway.

Intuition supposed to be a setup for an pif-kill during the next turn.
I experimented also with some other cards in the intuition pile to get rid of permanents and to kill afterwards with the other pilecards:

- ancient grudge -> canonist,revoker

- ray of revelation -> leyline,spirit of te labyrinth

-> flame jab -> thalia,spirit of the labyrinth




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[lordofthepit]

Has anyone tried a singleton Rain of Filth? Much worse in the early turns, but disgusting in the late game (plus enables threshold to boot). It's one of the cards I fear most in Doomsday.

Also, are there any strong proponents of Lim-Dul's Vault as a business spell? The most popular lists these day seem to run 4 Infernal Tutors only (Prosak), with some variants running 1-2 Grim Tutors (Elie Pichon/Ari Lax). I used to enjoy playing TNT several years ago, but Burning Wish feels a bit clunky to me.

[davelin]

Has anyone tried a singleton Rain of Filth? Much worse in the early turns, but disgusting in the late game (plus enables threshold to boot). It's one of the cards I fear most in Doomsday.

Also, are there any strong proponents of Lim-Dul's Vault as a business spell? The most popular lists these day seem to run 4 Infernal Tutors only (Prosak), with some variants running 1-2 Grim Tutors (Elie Pichon/Ari Lax). I used to enjoy playing TNT several years ago, but Burning Wish feels a bit clunky to me.

I'm a fan of LDV as a poor man's Vampiric Tutor/Doomsday that can find a necessary piece or setup the next few draws.

[bennotsi]

I'm a fan of LDV as a poor man's Vampiric Tutor/Doomsday that can find a necessary piece or setup the next few draws.

What's stopping you from actually running Doomsday?

[davelin]

What's stopping you from actually running Doomsday?

I'm assuming you mean the card, not the deck. Doomsday and Past in Flames is a nonbo and the typical MD configuration of ANT isn't well suited to win after a resolved Doomsday.

[gregtron]

What's stopping you from actually running Doomsday?

The thing stopping us from running Doomsday is that it's a trap.

[anomie-p]

Pif-> ad nauseam is 9 mana right?
With that amount of mana you can just win with pif-loop anyway.

There's a lot of sweet piles, I think. I don't think you'd PiF an Ad Nauseam out, although if you had AdN in hand and were going for that anyway, grabbing PiF out of your deck would probably up the odds you'd get to draw more cards.

The problem with this (and part of why I originally asked) is when I am thinking about this, I am thinking about sweet plays, and if I'm thinking about sweet plays, I'm probably on my way to magical christmas land ;)

(I goldfished it a little, just so I'd understand more, and ran into things like ... "I have this intuition, if my opponent were not a goldfish, he would be able to wasteland this here land and then I'd really want that Intuition to *actually be preordain*", etc)

[sawatarix]

Lemnear and i pondered during Bom 8 about gifts ungiven+more rituals.
Gifts -> tutor,pif and 2 rituals or pif and 3 rituals if you will.
While it still looks strong,there were 2 downsides:
-
Cc4 and gifts should be cast during our opponents eot.
- if we cast gifts during the comboturn our opponent can give us the "wrong" cards to disrupt our combo.






- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

Lemnear and i pondered during Bom 8 about gifts ungiven+more rituals.
Gifts -> tutor,pif and 2 rituals or pif and 3 rituals if you will.
While it still looks strong,there were 2 downsides:
-
Cc4 and gifts should be cast during our opponents eot.
- if we cast gifts during the comboturn our opponent can give us the "wrong" cards to disrupt our combo.






- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

...and then I thought of RIP and DRS and said to myself: "why da hell should I make those cards even better ?!"

[sawatarix]

What would be the forth best cantrip in legacy right now?
And i'm talking about cantrips ,not draw-1 spells like gitaxian probe.

1. Brainstorm
2. Ponder
3. Preordain
4. ?

I need input,thx in advance !


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Marcelo65]

What would be the forth best cantrip in legacy right now?
And i'm talking about cantrips ,not draw-1 spells like gitaxian probe.

1. Brainstorm
2. Ponder
3. Preordain
4. ?

I need input,thx in advance !


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -


It has to be Serum Vision. Although it is a "draw-1" spell. Nonetheless, the best among the rest. :P

[Jay_Gatz]

I would play portent or top as a 2 mana cantrip or impulse/peer through depths way before touching serum visions or sleight of hand

[gregtron]

I would play portent or top as a 2 mana cantrip or impulse/peer through depths way before touching serum visions or sleight of hand

After a certain point, we're just cantripping into cantrips that cantrip into more cantrips. After maxing out Brainstorm, Ponder, and Probe, I only have room for two Preordains. I can see the logic behind running the 12-trip versions, but jesus, I can't imagine having to slog through a deck with 16 cantrip effects. There are already enough times where my hands are Bayou and 1,000 U spells.

[Azdraël]

This deck doesn't need more cantrips.

[R3D]

Hi Guys,

Im playing burning ant for a while. I like the answers burning wish provides. It however is a bit clunky.
Today i was thinking about personal tutor. What do you guys think? Maybe a list with 4 infernal tutor; 2/3 personal tutor and 1 grim tutor could work.
What do you guys think?

[Lemnear]

Hi Guys,

Im playing burning ant for a while. I like the answers burning wish provides. It however is a bit clunky.
Today i was thinking about personal tutor. What do you guys think? Maybe a list with 4 infernal tutor; 2/3 personal tutor and 1 grim tutor could work.
What do you guys think?

I think that the topic was discussed in this thread at least one time before. It's sorcery speed, can't get you cards like Ad Nauseam or Chain of Vapor, is carddisadvantage. LDV is strickly better.

[R3D]

I think that the topic was discussed in this thread at least one time before. It's sorcery speed, can't get you cards like Ad Nauseam or Chain of Vapor, is carddisadvantage. LDV is strickly better.

Thanks for your respons.
Not sure if you can call ldv strictly better since the nature of the card is a bit different, but that's a whole different discussion. It would probably serve the goal better then personal tutor will do :)
My thinking was changing the deck to: t1 personal tutor for empty. This may be to straining for the manabase and ldv will probably still do a better job.

[Lemnear]

Thanks for your respons.
Not sure if you can call ldv strictly better since the nature of the card is a bit different, but that's a whole different discussion. It would probably serve the goal better then personal tutor will do :)
My thinking was changing the deck to: t1 personal tutor for empty. This may be to straining for the manabase and ldv will probably still do a better job.

The Main problem here is that Personal Tutor gives your opponent a whole turn to plan ahead for EtW then. Possible Arguments with Personal Tutor and Gitaxian Probe are too artificial for my taste even if that combination would work out by fetching PIF and ToA (via flashback)

[R3D]

The Main problem here is that Personal Tutor gives your opponent a whole turn to plan ahead for EtW then. Possible Arguments with Personal Tutor and Gitaxian Probe are too artificial for my taste even if that combination would work out by fetching PIF and ToA (via flashback)

I agree with you that it will give the opponent too much time to prepare for empty. Also about setting up with gitaxian probe: this demands too much card combinations.

[SaberTooth]

any thoughts/sideboard advice for reanimator? i went 4-1 in a legacy chalenge an lost 2-1 against reanimator, this is not the first time that this archetype ruins my day when im playing ant

[sawatarix]

@personal tutor:
I can image a build with a couple of tutor in combination with 2-3 senseis devining top to draw the desired card during the same turn.
Have to test it,it seems slow because of top on the other hand.

@reanimator:
Is one of the few bad matchups we have to be honest.
Adding countermagic (flusterstorm,swansong,pyroblast) and graveyard-hate (surgical extraction) or speed (second ad nauseam) helps.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[R3D]

@personal tutor:
I can image a build with a couple of tutor in combination with 2-3 senseis devining top to draw the desired card during the same turn.
Have to test it,it seems slow because of top on the other hand.
-
Sensei makes me think of doomsday :D wait, this is going way too far since there is already a card needed to draw into the personal tutor target.
Can't help it that hybrids are still keeping my interest.

[sawatarix]

I have played Ant with 2 Ad Nauseams for a while now and i'm also interested in other builds.

What is the secret behind the 2- Past in Flames Decks?
Some people run a second copy of pif and i'm wondering why.
Does it make the deck faster?
There will be more comboturns where you won't have a tutor but 1-3 cantrips and rituals to hopefully find a tutor or the tendrils i guess?
Please share your experience with 2 or maybe 3 past in flames in the maindeck :-)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[flrn]

I have played Ant with 2 Ad Nauseams for a while now and i'm also interested in other builds.

What is the secret behind the 2- Past in Flames Decks?
Some people run a second copy of pif and i'm wondering why.
Does it make the deck faster?
There will be more comboturns where you won't have a tutor but 1-3 cantrips and rituals to hopefully find a tutor or the tendrils i guess?
Please share your experience with 2 or maybe 3 past in flames in the maindeck :-)

Talking about this version?

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond


4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:

2 Ad Nauseam
1 Burning Wish
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm

[sawatarix]

For instance ya.

Most of the lists run 2 pif 2 toa and sometimes 1 empty main


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[GoldenCid]

That decklist reminds the storm list before ad nauseam.

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[Sloshthedark]

I have played Ant with 2 Ad Nauseams for a while now and i'm also interested in other builds.

What is the secret behind the 2- Past in Flames Decks?
Some people run a second copy of pif and i'm wondering why.
Does it make the deck faster?
There will be more comboturns where you won't have a tutor but 1-3 cantrips and rituals to hopefully find a tutor or the tendrils i guess?
Please share your experience with 2 or maybe 3 past in flames in the maindeck :-)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Speed, awesome resiliency, fow-proof scenarios, blind pif, aside worse ad nauseam makes the deck next level in every good aspect... Never played 3 - 2 in hand is not a preferable situation, usualy, additional storm spells not necessary, played with both ad nauseam 2 pif and grim tutor ~2 years back and would take 2 pif before a grim in AdN list, the "true" grinding station concept plays out bit different, my list is kind of 1 foot on both sides

[gregtron]

any thoughts/sideboard advice for reanimator? i went 4-1 in a legacy chalenge an lost 2-1 against reanimator, this is not the first time that this archetype ruins my day when im playing ant

I think we just lose this one, but I'm still trying to figure it out myself. The usual tactics we use to fight against FoW/Daze decks don't work because they can just untap and kill us. It doesn't help that every Reanimator player is a lucksack and a terrible human being.

[lordofthepit]

I enjoyed the TNT decklists a few years back (pre-Innistrad), since I liked the threat density that comes with Burning Wish, but I disliked the compromised manabase and color requirements of TES (which I have never been able to do well with).

I've decided to take a break from playing fair after doing so for some larger tournaments, and I took ANT to two weeklies (a list very similar to Adam Prosak's). I was dismissive of the list initially, because I could not imagine playing only 4 tutor effects, but I managed to go 8-0 against Miracles, Goblins, Elves x2, Bant, UR Delver, Jund, and RUG Delver.

A couple observations from my perspective as a storm player who has returned for a 3-year hiatus to play these newer variants:
1) The addition of Gitaxian Probe makes it allows for a lot of "easy mode" games where you would previously have to guess about what you were willing to play into. The fact that it gets us closer to threshold, digs further for no mana off Past in Flames, and more cheaply enables tricks involving Brainstorm + LED (with Tutor/business on top) is just gravy.
2) Past in Flames is absolutely ridiculous in this deck. I occasionally miss not being able to rebuy Lion's Eye Diamond with IGG, but Past in Flames is so much safer against blue decks. The flashback is surprisingly relevant if you're able to generate a ton of mana and your first attempt gets countered, but also if you need to bin Lion's Eye Diamond to enable the card. There are also a ton of games where I need to play Past in Flames in desperation mode without access to a tutor, and I'm able to eventually find the win by sequencing cantrips.
3) 12 cantrips + 4 probes + 4 Infernal Tutor still does not provide the "business density" that you get with TES/TNT; however, there are a lot of games with the latter decks where you have two or three tutor effects, but no easy way to get ritual effects, and in these cases, the extra cantrips of ANT shines.
4) Taxing effects are incredibly easy to play around for ANT compared to TES. Cabal Ritual is far superior to Rite in Flames, the reliance on only a single red mana at most to go off, and a relatively resilient manabase all contribute to this.
5) I thought this deck straight up loses to Surgical Extraction. I underestimated how easy it was to peek at their hand and cantrip into a discard effect.
6) Playing with a full sideboard is amazing. I actually think G/W or mono-white decks with hatebears and a mana denial component represent a more difficult challenge than a wall of countermagic. Being able to board in several cards to actually answer these permanents is terrific.

[sawatarix]

@2pif:
Ok so you will have more situations where you have a bunch of rituals and past in flames in hand and 2-3 cantrips in your graveyard.
You can go off now with a ton of mana and lethal stormcount but you have to (!) hit a tutor/tendrils with the 2-3 cantrips and i'm not sure if it always works ,rather not i guess.

Is this what we want with multiple past in flames in the deck?
Well if this is the plan of the concept i would add 1-2 senseis devining tops to dig after pif resolved.

Anyone else who has some experience with multiple copies of past in flames ?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[nevilshute]

I enjoyed the TNT decklists a few years back (pre-Innistrad), since I liked the threat density that comes with Burning Wish, but I disliked the compromised manabase and color requirements of TES (which I have never been able to do well with).

I've decided to take a break from playing fair after doing so for some larger tournaments, and I took ANT to two weeklies (a list very similar to Adam Prosak's). I was dismissive of the list initially, because I could not imagine playing only 4 tutor effects, but I managed to go 8-0 against Miracles, Goblins, Elves x2, Bant, UR Delver, Jund, and RUG Delver.

A couple observations from my perspective as a storm player who has returned for a 3-year hiatus to play these newer variants:
1) The addition of Gitaxian Probe makes it allows for a lot of "easy mode" games where you would previously have to guess about what you were willing to play into. The fact that it gets us closer to threshold, digs further for no mana off Past in Flames, and more cheaply enables tricks involving Brainstorm + LED (with Tutor/business on top) is just gravy.
2) Past in Flames is absolutely ridiculous in this deck. I occasionally miss not being able to rebuy Lion's Eye Diamond with IGG, but Past in Flames is so much safer against blue decks. The flashback is surprisingly relevant if you're able to generate a ton of mana and your first attempt gets countered, but also if you need to bin Lion's Eye Diamond to enable the card. There are also a ton of games where I need to play Past in Flames in desperation mode without access to a tutor, and I'm able to eventually find the win by sequencing cantrips.
3) 12 cantrips + 4 probes + 4 Infernal Tutor still does not provide the "business density" that you get with TES/TNT; however, there are a lot of games with the latter decks where you have two or three tutor effects, but no easy way to get ritual effects, and in these cases, the extra cantrips of ANT shines.
4) Taxing effects are incredibly easy to play around for ANT compared to TES. Cabal Ritual is far superior to Rite in Flames, the reliance on only a single red mana at most to go off, and a relatively resilient manabase all contribute to this.
5) I thought this deck straight up loses to Surgical Extraction. I underestimated how easy it was to peek at their hand and cantrip into a discard effect.
6) Playing with a full sideboard is amazing. I actually think G/W or mono-white decks with hatebears and a mana denial component represent a more difficult challenge than a wall of countermagic. Being able to board in several cards to actually answer these permanents is terrific.

Nice to hear your thoughts and experiences. I am still to settle on a list. I started out playing TNT with 3x Burning Wish. Eventually I tried out the Prosak inspired list with no wishes. I've liked both lists and I have reservations about both lists.

Currently I'm kind of hetching as I'm running 1x Burning Wish. The only wish cards in my sideboard are a tendrils and a toxic deluge. This way I still get to run a full sideboard more or less. Still undecided though.

Feel that 4 infernal tutors are too few business spells. I've tried adding a Lim-Dûl's Vault at one time and have also tested with Grim Tutor. Both have their merits. I like running some number of thoughtseizes and that combined with a Grim Tutor makes Ad Nauseam too untennable. Lim-Dûl's Vault is probably preferable. Ultimately I've decided for now to go with an extra tutor for Tendrils in the shape of the one Burning Wish.

[Lemnear]

I enjoyed the TNT decklists a few years back (pre-Innistrad), since I liked the threat density that comes with Burning Wish, but I disliked the compromised manabase and color requirements of TES (which I have never been able to do well with).

I've decided to take a break from playing fair after doing so for some larger tournaments, and I took ANT to two weeklies (a list very similar to Adam Prosak's). I was dismissive of the list initially, because I could not imagine playing only 4 tutor effects, but I managed to go 8-0 against Miracles, Goblins, Elves x2, Bant, UR Delver, Jund, and RUG Delver.

A couple observations from my perspective as a storm player who has returned for a 3-year hiatus to play these newer variants:
1) The addition of Gitaxian Probe makes it allows for a lot of "easy mode" games where you would previously have to guess about what you were willing to play into. The fact that it gets us closer to threshold, digs further for no mana off Past in Flames, and more cheaply enables tricks involving Brainstorm + LED (with Tutor/business on top) is just gravy.
2) Past in Flames is absolutely ridiculous in this deck. I occasionally miss not being able to rebuy Lion's Eye Diamond with IGG, but Past in Flames is so much safer against blue decks. The flashback is surprisingly relevant if you're able to generate a ton of mana and your first attempt gets countered, but also if you need to bin Lion's Eye Diamond to enable the card. There are also a ton of games where I need to play Past in Flames in desperation mode without access to a tutor, and I'm able to eventually find the win by sequencing cantrips.
3) 12 cantrips + 4 probes + 4 Infernal Tutor still does not provide the "business density" that you get with TES/TNT; however, there are a lot of games with the latter decks where you have two or three tutor effects, but no easy way to get ritual effects, and in these cases, the extra cantrips of ANT shines.
4) Taxing effects are incredibly easy to play around for ANT compared to TES. Cabal Ritual is far superior to Rite in Flames, the reliance on only a single red mana at most to go off, and a relatively resilient manabase all contribute to this.
5) I thought this deck straight up loses to Surgical Extraction. I underestimated how easy it was to peek at their hand and cantrip into a discard effect.
6) Playing with a full sideboard is amazing. I actually think G/W or mono-white decks with hatebears and a mana denial component represent a more difficult challenge than a wall of countermagic. Being able to board in several cards to actually answer these permanents is terrific.

That is all correct, but don't sweep the downsides under the rug. Permanent graveyard hate can bite your ass while this decks sibling doesn't care. Spending about 2 full turns of cantripping can backfire against other combo decks fast. Giving an opponent several turns to develop a board/mana presence can put you into Troubles as well.

I don't know if the manaadvantage and the basics remain as THE selling point, now that pure Tempo left the metagame, but Miracles and Team America (DRS + Discard) made their comeback.

[Tammit67]

That is all correct, but don't sweep the downsides under the rug. Permanent graveyard hate can bite your ass while this decks sibling doesn't care. Spending about 2 full turns of cantripping can backfire against other combo decks fast. Giving an opponent several turns to develop a board/mana presence can put you into Troubles as well.

I don't know if the manaadvantage and the basics remain as THE selling point, now that pure Tempo left the metagame, but Miracles and Team America (DRS + Discard) made their comeback.

Yeah, my biggest issue has been turn 2 something hateful (hymn, cannonist, meddling mage, countertop) backed by countermagic. While those cards aren't new issues, the difference lies in that decks with discard + counters are now running permanent based hate as well. And that's a little disconcerting for AnT while TES can slip underneath hate a good deal of the time and ignores the GY.

[lordofthepit]

That is all correct, but don't sweep the downsides under the rug. Permanent graveyard hate can bite your ass while this decks sibling doesn't care. Spending about 2 full turns of cantripping can backfire against other combo decks fast. Giving an opponent several turns to develop a board/mana presence can put you into Troubles as well.

I don't know if the mana advantage and the basics remain as THE selling point, now that pure Tempo left the metagame, but Miracles and Team America (DRS + Discard) made their comeback.

I'm very aware of the downsides. I absolutely dread facing a Leyline of Sanctity backed by countermagic, and dedicated gravehate slows this deck down considerably.

I'm currently running quad Dark Confidant in the board for matchups against faster combo (Reanimator, TES) and against decks with heavy discard but low removal (mostly BUG). The plan against the former is to rip their hand apart (in addition to running Surgical Extraction) and hope Dark Confidant allows me to recover fast than the opponent. Granted, I have not played against such decks yet, so it remains to be seen whether this will work out.

[jin]

I'm very aware of the downsides. I absolutely dread facing a Leyline of Sanctity backed by countermagic, and dedicated gravehate slows this deck down considerably.

I'm currently running quad Dark Confidant in the board for matchups against faster combo (Reanimator, TES) and against decks with heavy discard but low removal (mostly BUG). The plan against the former is to rip their hand apart (in addition to running Surgical Extraction) and hope Dark Confidant allows me to recover fast than the opponent. Granted, I have not played against such decks yet, so it remains to be seen whether this will work out.

Extraction on Force of Will could be pretty good.

[Lemnear]

I'm very aware of the downsides. I absolutely dread facing a Leyline of Sanctity backed by countermagic, and dedicated gravehate slows this deck down considerably.

I'm currently running quad Dark Confidant in the board for matchups against faster combo (Reanimator, TES) and against decks with heavy discard but low removal (mostly BUG). The plan against the former is to rip their hand apart (in addition to running Surgical Extraction) and hope Dark Confidant allows me to recover fast than the opponent. Granted, I have not played against such decks yet, so it remains to be seen whether this will work out.

The grinding plan is questionable against a deck that prefers to explode into other combo decks players face asap

[jin]

The grinding plan is questionable against a deck that prefers to explode into other combo decks players face asap

I think by grinding, he means a battle of attrition. I mean in a storm mirror or a combo mirror, it's basically a race to see who can build the pieces the quickest. If you can do that while disrupting their hand with discard, that is a bonus.

Dark Confidant allows you to win the attrition war because of raw card advantage. The disadvantage is you might die on the turn you cast Confidant.

[lordofthepit]

The grinding plan is questionable against a deck that prefers to explode into other combo decks players face asap

I don't think it's likely to win very many matches, but Reanimator and TES are bad matchups to begin with.

Against Reanimator, short of naturally having a turn 1 kill (highly unlikely for this deck) or mulliganing for Surgical Extraction or Karakas, you need to hope that they keep a slow hand missing several of their pieces, which would allow you to disrupt. Since the cards you're boarding out for the obvious inclusions (extra discard, gravehate, Karakas, and possibly bounce) are generally your weakest cantrips (Preordain), it's unlikely to be seriously hampering your turn 1 potential. The postboard games you are likely to win generally require attrition early, followed by quickly rebuilding into a winning position. Dark Confidant helps with this strategy, while eating chunks out of their life total. I think TES focuses more on going off earlier against Reanimator (than does ANT) because they are better equipped to go off on turns 1 and 2, because Silences are much weaker than Duress effects in this matchup, and because one of their best sideboard cards (Xantid Swarm) naturally encourages them into going faster rather than relying on disruption/attrition.

Likewise, TES is a terrible matchup preboard because they are faster by about half a turn, because their higher density of tutor effects allows for more resilience to our discard, and because Silence is one of the most devastating cards available. We have no chance at beating them post-board if they're able to go off turn 1 anyway (or turn 2 without discard), so our best chance is to prepare for a disruptive game from both sides. Dark Confidant is ideal here because it lets you refill your hand with both business and disruption, does not leave us vulnerable to Silence (unlike all of our other important cards), and allows a flashback for Cabal Therapy if the opponent is close to going off.

I may not be 100% sure about the merits of including Dark Confidant in the Reanimator matchup for reasons you mentioned, but I cannot imagine there's a better plan against TES without drastically changing our 75.

[jin]

I don't think it's likely to win very many matches, but Reanimator and TES are bad matchups to begin with.

Against Reanimator, short of naturally having a turn 1 kill (highly unlikely for this deck) or mulliganing for Surgical Extraction or Karakas, you need to hope that they keep a slow hand missing several of their pieces, which would allow you to disrupt. Since the cards you're boarding out for the obvious inclusions (extra discard, gravehate, Karakas, and possibly bounce) are generally your weakest cantrips (Preordain), it's unlikely to be seriously hampering your turn 1 potential. The postboard games you are likely to win generally require attrition early, followed by quickly rebuilding into a winning position. Dark Confidant helps with this strategy, while eating chunks out of their life total. I think TES focuses more on going off earlier against Reanimator (than does ANT) because they are better equipped to go off on turns 1 and 2, because Silences are much weaker than Duress effects in this matchup, and because one of their best sideboard cards (Xantid Swarm) naturally encourages them into going faster rather than relying on disruption/attrition.

Likewise, TES is a terrible matchup preboard because they are faster by about half a turn, because their higher density of tutor effects allows for more resilience to our discard, and because Silence is one of the most devastating cards available. We have no chance at beating them post-board if they're able to go off turn 1 anyway (or turn 2 without discard), so our best chance is to prepare for a disruptive game from both sides. Dark Confidant is ideal here because it lets you refill your hand with both business and disruption, does not leave us vulnerable to Silence (unlike all of our other important cards), and allows a flashback for Cabal Therapy if the opponent is close to going off.

I may not be 100% sure about the merits of including Dark Confidant in the Reanimator matchup for reasons you mentioned, but I cannot imagine there's a better plan against TES without drastically changing our 75.

Reanimator: This is a difficult match up, but I think reanimator has a very big problem when looking for pieces. They just don't have the necessary tutors to find them. Them finding pieces is very luck based. If you hamper them with discard, they will struggle to find what they need. Even if they reanimate something big, as long as it is not Griselbrand, ANT can still win the turn fatty comes into play. The deck is redundant, but not direct in its strategy.

TES: Pre-board? I think TES is strong against ANT post board too. Silence stays in the whole time because it is an unstoppable Fluster Storm against enemy storm decks.

[lordofthepit]

TES: Pre-board? I think TES is strong against ANT post board too. Silence stays in the whole time because it is an unstoppable Fluster Storm against enemy storm decks.

Agreed, TES is not a matchup I'd like to face and I think we're disadvantaged even post-board, but I think the games we do win are generally on the back of Dark Confidant.

[Lemnear]

Agreed, TES is not a matchup I'd like to face and I think we're disadvantaged even post-board, but I think the games we do win are generally on the back of Dark Confidant.

Not my experience. The key to win with ANT is stripping key parts and dragging the game beyond turn 3. Spending cards and mana to wield a flurry of discard at TES works well as ANT simply is less fragile and needs less cards in hand to combo off. Boarding in some number of SB Flusterstorm is pretty nice too as it serves exactly the beforementioned goal. You don't win because, you drop a 2cc creature which takes 2 turns to start creating cardadvantage. This match is about card quality and dismissing the habit of cantripping T1 and looking for your own combo pieces rather than disruption.

[sawatarix]

I run 3 counterspells in my sb right now (2 flusterstorm 1 swan song) and they are awesome in the mirrorgame.
Don't forget: There is a game before you go off so playing control until you can go off is my strategy right now.

Bob is a tricky one,he shines in the grindy-games like combo matchups and control matchups.
Don't board them against decks that run removal even in postboardgames (yes i'm also talking about liliana here! Don't give the opponent the opportunity to profit from actually "bad" cards like postboard lightning bolts and such )


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[SaberTooth]

the thing about reanimator, in my experience of course, is that the deck seems just more powerful than ant (in this particular match up) i tried surgical and lost again because of thoughtseize. griselbrand is the real offender here

im thinking about running a singleton chain of vapor md, anyone who tested this to help me?

[bennotsi]

the thing about reanimator, in my experience of course, is that the deck seems just more powerful than ant (in this particular match up) i tried surgical and lost again because of thoughtseize. griselbrand is the real offender here

im thinking about running a singleton chain of vapor md, anyone who tested this to help me?

Yes, I have. No, it doesn't help against Griselbrand.

[jin]

Agreed, TES is not a matchup I'd like to face and I think we're disadvantaged even post-board, but I think the games we do win are generally on the back of Dark Confidant.

I just thought of something. The way TES combats counter magic in combo decks is Xantid Swarm. Could ANT bring in Bees to fight off Chant? I would assume so.


Yes, I have. No, it doesn't help against Griselbrand.

Agreed. Griselbrand will just draw in response. Griselbrand is equivalent to Ad Nauseam here. You can't beat the deck by solving it. You have to beat it before you even see the card. You need to beat the Infernal Tutor equivalent. This is usually a reanimation spell or Show and Tell. I try to target those with my discard. If they don't have those, I'd say target the cantrips!

[lordofthepit]

I just thought of something. The way TES combats counter magic in combo decks is Xantid Swarm. Could ANT bring in Bees to fight off Chant? I would assume so.

I don't particularly like it against TES. Orim's Chant is at its best in the pseudomirror when used defensively. Xantid Swarm can only be used offensively to protect against Chant (and with Suspend 1), plus they don't even have to burn a Chant unless you can present a credible threat of going off. I'd rather just rely on discard as the only disruptive elements.

[Lemnear]

Would you seriously board in reactive cards for TES' reactive 3-off? No. You just fling discsard and if you see a silence + White mana maybe your duress should take that ine instead of a Ritual if you plan to combo off ;)

Flusterstorm is a lot better fighting various spells in TES and is on-color

[SaberTooth]

im not talking about chain of vapor to combat reanimator, im talking about chain of vapor to answer problematic cards (teeg for example) MD, and it is a storm engine for itself