[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Ronald Deuce]

I like the idea to play mox as fifth petal basically, it makes the nauseam plan stronger. And with this meta (at least, my meta, that is made by eldrazi and D&T, miracle following) I think nauseam has become more than a B-plan, the more the game goes long the more I feel bad and next to lose.
I feel confortable to have 14 lands + mox, mana sources are virtually the same, mox is more versatile (you can play it with no imprint just to increase storm count for example, it can help you to be hellbent....)
Imho we don't have anymore time to sit down, waiting for a discard card to avoid counter, or play around them, using maybe the double pif. That's why I'm also thinking to remove the second MD pif with an empty: by doing this, I have also a free slot in the sideboard, that is always great, I'd like to have a 30 cards sideboard with this meta :( (hurkyl, dread of night, carpet, confidant, massacre......so many beautiful cards)

Chrome Mox actually saved me during an Ad Nauseam yesterday, though not because I needed the mana source as much as because I had to yank a Gitaxian Probe out of my hand to let me tutor for the win. I'm not sure how much I like having the card in the deck at the moment, but it's been good so far.

I don't like running Empty in the maindeck, but it might be a metagame call. I think you're right that the focus at the moment should be on upping our speed because a quick combo is our best answer to the flood of hate we now need to face. I don't think removing the second Past in Flames is a good plan, though. It's really important against anything running countermagic, and even though it feels awkward, chaining cantrips is sometimes necessary to find what we need to close the game. Also, it lets us rely slightly less on digging for tutors, which I think is pretty important. I agree that it's slower than Petition, but it's a lot more stable.

The Empty the Warrens plan often doesn't end the game any faster because we'll need at least one attack step (probably two or sometimes more). Its principal advantage is that it lets us barf our cards before a lot of permanent-based hate can come down (an advantage over Past in Flames), but in non-hatebear/Chalice matchups, the speed of the kill is more important than the speed of the combo, and we aren't guaranteed a victory with the goblins.

Got owned yesterday. I made some bad plays and kept at least one hand that I shouldn't have kept, but I also noticed that I flooded on discard in several games, even with only six in the deck. I guess that rules out a fourth Therapy. Played my first match against Aluren in some time. Seems like one matchup outside of Miracles where Krosan Grip would've saved the day.

[taconaut]

Just chiming in to add another opinion:

- I cut the Xantids/Carpets from my sideboard a while ago; they were fine for a bit but I haven't missed them at all
- I like the Dark Petition in the main with the second PiF in the board
- I like the Chrome mox in the main as well
- Empty could be fine in the main, but I find I generally want Ad Nauseam if I want to go fast, and sometimes you can just put together five mana and an ad nauseam to refill your hand after you've been hit with discard, which empty can't do
- I play 15 lands/7 discard, and the mix feels good. I don't think 14 or 6 is necessarily wrong, but I hate being a discard short of winning or mulling no landers, so I hedge on the high side
- I actually might be crazy, but I'm currently running 2 Hurkyll's/2 Empty in the side for Eldrazi, and have taken a surprising number of matches with them; it's definitely still not even 50/50, but with a little luck you can actually make goblins and get them a reasonable amount of time. I also have an extra Chrome Mox in the board for that plan.

[Morden]

Just chiming in to add another opinion:

- I cut the Xantids/Carpets from my sideboard a while ago; they were fine for a bit but I haven't missed them at all
- I like the Dark Petition in the main with the second PiF in the board
- I like the Chrome mox in the main as well
- Empty could be fine in the main, but I find I generally want Ad Nauseam if I want to go fast, and sometimes you can just put together five mana and an ad nauseam to refill your hand after you've been hit with discard, which empty can't do
- I play 15 lands/7 discard, and the mix feels good. I don't think 14 or 6 is necessarily wrong, but I hate being a discard short of winning or mulling no landers, so I hedge on the high side
- I actually might be crazy, but I'm currently running 2 Hurkyll's/2 Empty in the side for Eldrazi, and have taken a surprising number of matches with them; it's definitely still not even 50/50, but with a little luck you can actually make goblins and get them a reasonable amount of time. I also have an extra Chrome Mox in the board for that plan.

1) Agree
2) This is an option I was thinking about......I think I will leave a pif MD, without adding another in the SB (usually when I play with 2 md I always side out 1 of them, so I see no reason to waste a slot in the side for it). Honestly I'd prefer grim tutor instead dark petition, but since I don't have it I will try with petition XD
3) Agree
4) No absolutely, empty never repleaces nauseam, it can be a second wincon with tendrils, with the help of nauseam.
5) 7 discards are ok also for me, 15 lands also. If you play mox in the main I think you can go down with 14 lands.......
6) Hurkyl is my 16th sb card, as soon I find a free slot, it enters.



about the 14 lands:about this, what would you cut? bayou? tropical? With the idea to not have the one you cut in the sideboard....

[Ronald Deuce]

about the 14 lands:about this, what would you cut? bayou? tropical? With the idea to not have the one you cut in the sideboard....

I keep a Bayou in my 'board and run the standard setup of duals with a Tropical Island in place of Island #2. Not sure how much of a difference our fetchland setup really makes, but I'm on 4x Delta, 2x Tarn, 1x Strand and Mire (budget is a factor here, but problems with this setup are very rare in my experience).

I occasionally need to mulligan for lack of lands, but I find it much more likely that I'll topdeck numerous lands when I want to get the show on the road, even with 14 lands in the maindeck and after several cantrips. Cantrip strategy is something about which I'm interested in learning more if anyone wants to PM me.

I'm starting to think that land-count is a matter of taste. I can see the importance of hitting every land drop over the course of a long game or having an extra land against decks that really hit the manabase hard (indeed, I board in the Bayou somewhat often), but I don't like waiting for the extra lands to show when I can—or should—just start barfing cards. A lot of that has to do with the decks I've been facing, I think, but having live draws feels more important than having surplus lands, now more than at any point since I started playing the deck.

[taconaut]

1) Agree
2) This is an option I was thinking about......I think I will leave a pif MD, without adding another in the SB (usually when I play with 2 md I always side out 1 of them, so I see no reason to waste a slot in the side for it). Honestly I'd prefer grim tutor instead dark petition, but since I don't have it I will try with petition XD

I think double PiF in the main is totally defensible, I just like the flexibility of the Dark Petition. I do think Grim Tutor would be good as well, but I personally can't convince myself to put down the money for it. I believe there have been, maybe, two or three times it would've been better to have Grim over Petition? I just don't think it's a several-hundred-dollar difference for me.

3) Agree
4) No absolutely, empty never repleaces nauseam, it can be a second wincon with tendrils, with the help of nauseam.

Well, for some matchups, I like to swap it, like Burn and UR delver, because of life total pressure/their susceptibility to going "wide"

5) 7 discards are ok also for me, 15 lands also. If you play mox in the main I think you can go down with 14 lands.......

I think of Chrome Mox more as a ritual than a land; it serves different purposes during an Ad Nauseam and in the context of opening hands, for instance (it makes AdN with nothing floating better, but hands with only Mox as an initial mana source are worse).

6) Hurkyl is my 16th sb card, as soon I find a free slot, it enters.



about the 14 lands:about this, what would you cut? bayou? tropical? With the idea to not have the one you cut in the sideboard....

[Serch]

@Togores What's your opinion about ANT decks with Chrome Moxes like Caleb Scherer list in #SGCBALT for example?

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/253618

[Togores]

Its nice, I lthink its legit having one instead of the 15th land, But like empty ots not a card I really like, sometimes itrs nuts, sometimes its the worst. And drawing 2x is really bad. I like to be consisten and just draw as much good cards as possible :D

Also I dont like the 2 toa MD, only good vs burn and if TKS snaps the one drawn copy from your hand (5% senario?)

[benthetenor]

One other reason Caleb has for a second Tendrils is in case the first one gets snapped by a discard spell and then eaten by a Deathrite Shaman, as well as giving him some flexibility with pitching one to Chrome Mox if needed. His goal was to make Ad Nauseam more consistently good, and drawing a Tendrils off of an Ad Nauseam is pretty good.

[Burnplayer]

The problem of this deck is that need more business cards. Only 4 Infernal Tutors, 1 Ad Nauseam and 1 Past as bombs. Better play TES if you want to play Chrome MOx

[Togores]

This makes nauseam faster, but the second tendrills does nothing in the deck. Also usualy dont let you win faster or even beat a lot of cards that even other cards would do. more moxen + more tendrills does not much. I understand more moxen and more ad nauseam cards. Its something I have recomended to friends. The usual 1 ( may be 2) moxen + 2nd nauseam does makes your deck faster. But not the 2nd tendrills+ mox.


Also the Discard + drs thinh is bullshit. has hapnened to me but its like 1/100 games.

[Morden]

This makes nauseam faster, but the second tendrills does nothing in the deck. Also usualy dont let you win faster or even beat a lot of cards that even other cards would do. more moxen + more tendrills does not much. I understand more moxen and more ad nauseam cards. Its something I have recomended to friends. The usual 1 ( may be 2) moxen + 2nd nauseam does makes your deck faster. But not the 2nd tendrills+ mox.


Also the Discard + drs thinh is bullshit. has hapnened to me but its like 1/100 games.

this is a thing I want to try.

in general caleb's list is interesting, but please:

-2 islands??? to have in the SB 1 tropical, 1 bayou (and another mox)??
- no bouncer in SB? It seems to me a sb just to fight miracle XD. Decay is a great card, but you cannot use it for all......it requires green, under tax effects it costs 3..... surgical is ok, it can sobstitue flusterstorm in some matchups. 3 xantid?? I don't know USA metagame, maybe D&T and eldrazi are not present there.....

[Serch]

This makes nauseam faster, but the second tendrills does nothing in the deck. Also usualy dont let you win faster or even beat a lot of cards that even other cards would do. more moxen + more tendrills does not much. I understand more moxen and more ad nauseam cards. Its something I have recomended to friends. The usual 1 ( may be 2) moxen + 2nd nauseam does makes your deck faster. But not the 2nd tendrills+ mox.


Also the Discard + drs thinh is bullshit. has hapnened to me but its like 1/100 games.

Could you make us a sneak peek of your list with these kind of variants? just to start testing it..

[Togores]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18878&iddeck=143220

There are like 4 infernal 1 mox missing.

You can work on the discard cantrips and mana base. But there is a idea.

[benthetenor]

This makes nauseam faster, but the second tendrills does nothing in the deck. Also usualy dont let you win faster or even beat a lot of cards that even other cards would do. more moxen + more tendrills does not much. I understand more moxen and more ad nauseam cards. Its something I have recomended to friends. The usual 1 ( may be 2) moxen + 2nd nauseam does makes your deck faster. But not the 2nd tendrills+ mox.


Also the Discard + drs thinh is bullshit. has hapnened to me but its like 1/100 games.

I mean, there are also a few more corner cases. It lets you use LED in situations where you have a Tendrils in hand in the face of graveyard hate (Deathrite Shaman being the most relevant G1), it leads to more games against Delver decks and against Miracles where the draw up to 8 cards, cantrip and natural Tendrils them plan is available, it increases the odds that you have a hand that can natural tendrils them using their counterspells to build storm, and it generally reduces your reliance on getting a big, counterable spell to resolve. I'm not really a fan of lots of Tendrils in a combo deck in general (I believe that the biggest draw to a combo deck is a compact win condition) but all of those little edges, plus the 5% that you gave it in your post and the 1% that you gave it above, could well add up to a fairly significant edge, depending on matchups.

[nevilshute]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18878&iddeck=143220

There are like 4 infernal 1 mox missing.

You can work on the discard cantrips and mana base. But there is a idea.

No Past in Flames?

[Togores]

Its missing or seems so.
The list was just some inspiration.

[Ronald Deuce]

I almost never keep a hand with Tendrils in it. It's worked a few times, but usually it's like an automatic mulligan without the scry.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't see any point in running multiples in the main, especially because that actually makes Surgical Extraction more of a problem.

[nevilshute]

I almost never keep a hand with Tendrils in it. It's worked a few times, but usually it's like an automatic mulligan without the scry.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't see any point in running multiples in the main, especially because that actually makes Surgical Extraction more of a problem.

Tendrils in the opening hand is not always bad tbh. Tendrils, a ritual and a Past in Flames in the opening hand and you're not far off looping PiF to win with no need for a tutor. I played 2 tendrils in the main in Lille (http://mtgpulse.com/event/20751#295194) and was largely happy with it. It was great against the delver decks that would often be at 15 or less life after turn 3 from probes and fetches and forces. It makes baby tendrils split over two turns of the game (not necessarily, in fact rarely concurrent turns) a legit plan. Main deck 2 tendrils doesn't really seem to have issues with Surgical as that is not a main deck card meaning you only have to contend with it post board, at which point you might not want the 2nd tendrils - depending on matchup. But even if the opponent is running surgicals I'm not sure I understand why that would be a problem? Because you are more likely to get a tendrils into your yard without killing the opp, either through having it discarded or by firing off a non lethal tendrils? I don't think that's a very common problem tbh, but sure.

I'm not currently running double Tendrils in the main. Mostly it doesn't feel good enough against the non-blue decks and the combo decks. But I wouldn't be averse to tampering with that approach again another time.

[Ronald Deuce]

Tendrils in the opening hand is not always bad tbh. Tendrils, a ritual and a Past in Flames in the opening hand and you're not far off looping PiF to win with no need for a tutor. I played 2 tendrils in the main in Lille (http://mtgpulse.com/event/20751#295194) and was largely happy with it. It was great against the delver decks that would often be at 15 or less life after turn 3 from probes and fetches and forces. It makes baby tendrils split over two turns of the game (not necessarily, in fact rarely concurrent turns) a legit plan. Main deck 2 tendrils doesn't really seem to have issues with Surgical as that is not a main deck card meaning you only have to contend with it post board, at which point you might not want the 2nd tendrils - depending on matchup. But even if the opponent is running surgicals I'm not sure I understand why that would be a problem? Because you are more likely to get a tendrils into your yard without killing the opp, either through having it discarded or by firing off a non lethal tendrils? I don't think that's a very common problem tbh, but sure.

I'm not currently running double Tendrils in the main. Mostly it doesn't feel good enough against the non-blue decks and the combo decks. But I wouldn't be averse to tampering with that approach again another time.

Yeah, I agree with you. The main problem I have regarding Tendrils in hand is that we have to work around it if we're trying to tutor for something to enable the combo, and that's a spot where Surgical can really bite us hard. Of course, Surgical on a Ritual there is just as big a problem, but I think we're tipping our hand if we have to discard the Tendrils ourselves off of LED in order to get the combo going.

I have had opening-hand Tendrils win me games. Decks like Reanimator that dump a lot of life immediately can be vulnerable to Tendrils for 12, for instance.

[ScottW]

I tried getting jiggy with it... played a league with the Caleb Scherer double island, 14 land, mana base AND a doomsday sideboard for the miracles matchup. Won't say it really panned out all that well but was fun matches none the less:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4DJJ-cBtaRKu7itsWcvcBZ4

Thanks for the videos. I'd prefer a different list but it's hard to complain with all the great and diverse content you have recorded and have made available. I have to admit that my favorite part was the "glass" of wine. Seemed like an enjoyable evening.

[Morden]

yesterday got smashed again against eldrazi and eldrazi-mud......it's incredibile, also after a mulligan to 5 (g1, so with less hate) I cannot win. It's enough a thorn, it gives them time to rebuild the hands, and when we are ready to storm over the tax effects, trinisphere/thought not seer/random bad things come.
That's why I'm starting to think about the doomsday/shelldock isle sideboard plan..... in fact, the deck becomes a one spell combo basically. You lose half life, but if you play correct and with a bit of luck you can cast emrakul the same turn you play doomsday. It seems a good plan against everyone....maybe not against who plays karakas or fast combo.
Why not to play it?

[nevilshute]

yesterday got smashed again against eldrazi and eldrazi-mud......it's incredibile, also after a mulligan to 5 (g1, so with less hate) I cannot win. It's enough a thorn, it gives them time to rebuild the hands, and when we are ready to storm over the tax effects, trinisphere/thought not seer/random bad things come.
That's why I'm starting to think about the doomsday/shelldock isle sideboard plan..... in fact, the deck becomes a one spell combo basically. You lose half life, but if you play correct and with a bit of luck you can cast emrakul the same turn you play doomsday. It seems a good plan against everyone....maybe not against who plays karakas or fast combo.
Why not to play it?

Shelldock enters tapped so baring some very unlikely scenarios you will never resolve doomsday and cast emrakul in the same turn.

It's not the worst plan but is very vulnerable to Wasteland which some Eldrazi lists play. My main issue is that I don't think it is actually strong enough vs miracles. And it taking up 6 SB slots is a tall order.

[Morden]

so stupid.....I forgot about the fact that isle enters tapped. well, at this point things change, yes. Also miracle can have the time to prepare/find the terminus, and isle can be wasteland'd. I liked the idea to unify the sideboard......Miracle at the moment is "good" with confidant/extirpate, the problem is only eldrazi for me. I'd play thing in the ice, but if i have to dedicate 3/4 slots in my SB only for ONE matchup, they must be PERFECT, and titi isn't.

[Sloshthedark]

ok so let's everyone who keep track of their results post their Eldrazi lifetime score:

I'm 6-6 atm (only 2 times Op did not know what I was playing btw.)

with 6 discard, 4-5 answers, EtW, 2-3 ToA, no AdN ... because I don't think it's that bad, it's stupid (like most of the non U MUs) but let's distinguish between "the MU is miserable because I lost without casting a spell" (which haha I know very well from the other side of the table) or I luckily won, dodged all this and that (yeah that's what they get for playing pile of crap I'd be embarassed to admit owning) and let's talk strictly winrate... I've talked with at least to ppl who had roughtly the same winrate recently so post yours and prove me wrong! Because my score with Merfolk is two times worse - does it feel like bad MU? hell no, so is my winrate 25%? no sir! in last 12 months it's fuckin 23,07%! ...

[Jonathan Alexander]

I am 4-10 against Eldrazi and 1-3 against Eldrazi & Taxes.

[thefringthing]

I'm interested in input on this unorthodox list I put together to combat a very Miraculous and Stonebladey local metagame.


4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Rain of Filth
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard has some stuff to speed up (more Chrome Moxen) and combat specific non-Miracles/Stoneblade stuff that I can expect to play against like Goblins and D&T.

I'm really unsure about the maindeck Chrome Mox, which is a sort of hedge to try to keep the Abrupt Decays from ruining Ad Nauseam percentages, and the manabase (I don't have any Catacombses handy).

[Jonathan Alexander]

I honestly don't think either of these matchups needs any extra work before sideboarding. With 2 Past in Flames / 2 Tendrils / 1 Empty / 2 Top I am at 75% game one against Miracles. I did win one or two games because of Flooded Strands and Tops though, making my opponents think they were playing the mirror.

[nevilshute]

New batch of videos https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4A2KXauBsKAcsLaPFjrFDhg

[CabalTherapy]

New batch of videos https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4A2KXauBsKAcsLaPFjrFDhg

Regarding your Enchantress guy: I would have done the same: There is no action in his hand and why not trolling you with some beatdown for 0, tapping out because Enchantress usually doesnt play any stack interaction. Nonetheless, nice videos.

[nevilshute]

Thanks Robert. That guy was such a troll :smile:

[thefringthing]

Enchantress guy was clearly playing around Asphyxiate. Obviously you don't play much Legacy.

[nevilshute]

Enchantress guy was clearly playing around Asphyxiate. Obviously you don't play much Legacy.

That must be it! Now I've just got to learn why he kept tapping his Serra's Sanctum (with no enchantments on board).

[Morden]

That must be it! Now I've just got to learn why he kept tapping his Serra's Sanctum (with no enchantments on board).

Asphyxiate doesn't work against shroud :tongue:

Martin, what do you think about empty MD? Looking at your last playlist, I saw that on 6 matches you never won a game thanks to it. I like the list, in my local meta full of eldrazi empty MD is interesting, but removing the nauseam seems a big loss to me, a loss that can't be replaced by empty.

[Ronald Deuce]

2-1 again today at the local. Lost to Mav; he ripped a topdeck Gaddock Teeg in game 1, and in game 2, he had redundant Thalias and Thoughtseized me when I had a Disfigure in hand. I couldn't find a second answer.

Not sure what to do about this. It's fine to say "we're faster than they are," but I've learned that's something that doesn't happen every game. Starting to consider sideboard Massacre again because he also landed a Mother of Runes, so none of the hate I had in the deck would've broken through even if I'd found it. The hatebear matchups just feel really bad with all the redundancy they can bring to the table now.

It's worth pointing out that two weeks ago I beat the same guy with Empty the Warrens in games 2 and 3, but it's feeling more and more like a toss-up matchup because they've got so many cards that can zero us if we aren't running at our absolute best. It feels like I need an excellent hand, but they just need a hand that isn't abominable.

[JamieW89]

Decided to test a Doomsday sb last weekend (4 Decay, 1 Green dual, 3 DoN, 1 Massacre, 6 DD slots with EtW+AdN, 14 Lands and a Chrome Mox main) for a change. Both losses to the same guy (Noloam for the MTGO players) on Miracles despite all the sb cards. Didn't play particularly well, and was a bit unlucky in the final (he found Terminus in 1 blind card g1 for 15 tokens, and I mulled to 5 postboard). The mox was pretty weak in some matchups, but was key in g3 versus the DnT/Eldrazi deck in round-5. Doubt I'll be playing the DD package again any time soon, because multiple Tendrils are just a lot more space efficient, so a bit sad I couldn't at least resolve one Doomsday.

R1: UR Delver 2-0 (Had the 1-off Tendrils in my opener both games, and won with it. He misstimed his counters in g2 though, and could have won with his FoW,FoW,Fluster,Fluster,U card,U card hand)
R2: 4 Horsemen 2-0 (apparantly legal now with a different wincon)
R3: Miracles 0-2 (He went turn-1 eot brainstorm, t2 CB and had put a 0 on top instead of a 1, that basicly took away my remaining hope of a fast kill.)
R4: Jund 2-1 (He scried to the top in g3, and never played that card despite keeping a 1 lander. Because of this I had him on exactly Surgical, also because of his discard choices. Turned out to just be a land, and almost lost because of it)
R5: Eldrazi 'n Taxes (no Chalice/Spheres though) 2-1
SF: Jund 2-0 (I go t2 brainstorm, dark rit, duress intending to probe, cracking LED in response after to Ad Nauseam, but he reveals double Surgical. He never casts the 2nd surgical though, so I somehow steal the game)
F: Miracles 0-2

An interesting spot in g1 of the finals vs Miracles:
I have a Cabal Therapy on the stack, with the ability to make 16 goblins if everything resolves after this. He casts brainstorm in response with a Force in hand and no further blue cards or open mana, and a top on the battlefield. What blue card do you name after the brainstorm is done resolving? I didn't know his exact list, but it seemed to be somewhat streamlined with a number of Mentor and Ponder main. I also heard him talk about Predict between the rounds, but wasn't sure if he ran them or not. He has played ANT for a long time, and should be quite familiar with the mindgames.

[Morden]

Decided to test a Doomsday sb last weekend (4 Decay, 1 Green dual, 3 DoN, 1 Massacre, 6 DD slots with EtW+AdN, 14 Lands and a Chrome Mox main) for a change. Both losses to the same guy (Noloam for the MTGO players) on Miracles despite all the sb cards. Didn't play particularly well, and was a bit unlucky in the final (he found Terminus in 1 blind card g1 for 15 tokens, and I mulled to 5 postboard). The mox was pretty weak in some matchups, but was key in g3 versus the DnT/Eldrazi deck in round-5. Doubt I'll be playing the DD package again any time soon, because multiple Tendrils are just a lot more space efficient, so a bit sad I couldn't at least resolve one Doomsday.

R1: UR Delver 2-0 (Had the 1-off Tendrils in my opener both games, and won with it. He misstimed his counters in g2 though, and could have won with his FoW,FoW,Fluster,Fluster,U card,U card hand)
R2: 4 Horsemen 2-0 (apparantly legal now with a different wincon)
R3: Miracles 0-2 (He went turn-1 eot brainstorm, t2 CB and had put a 0 on top instead of a 1, that basicly took away my remaining hope of a fast kill.)
R4: Jund 2-1 (He scried to the top in g3, and never played that card despite keeping a 1 lander. Because of this I had him on exactly Surgical, also because of his discard choices. Turned out to just be a land, and almost lost because of it)
R5: Eldrazi 'n Taxes (no Chalice/Spheres though) 2-1
SF: Jund 2-0 (I go t2 brainstorm, dark rit, duress intending to probe, cracking LED in response after to Ad Nauseam, but he reveals double Surgical. He never casts the 2nd surgical though, so I somehow steal the game)
F: Miracles 0-2

An interesting spot in g1 of the finals vs Miracles:
I have a Cabal Therapy on the stack, with the ability to make 16 goblins if everything resolves after this. He casts brainstorm in response with a Force in hand and no further blue cards or open mana, and a top on the battlefield. What blue card do you name after the brainstorm is done resolving? I didn't know his exact list, but it seemed to be somewhat streamlined with a number of Mentor and Ponder main. I also heard him talk about Predict between the rounds, but wasn't sure if he ran them or not. He has played ANT for a long time, and should be quite familiar with the mindgames.

how many times did you win thanks to ETW?

[JamieW89]

how many times did you win thanks to ETW?

Only once preboard. But I cast it three times in preboard games (once as a desperation attempt through a Thalia but not for enough, and in the final where I was quite favored after resolving it but still lost).

[Dr_D]

I've read every recent page of this thread and I can't seem to grasp what the final consensus was on Daze. I'm asking because I'll be playing a tournament on saturday with a completely unknown metagame, and I'm not sure what maindeck I want to run. I really wanted to try Daze in an actual event, but I'm not sure if it's the best to run them if I have absolutely no read on the metagame. So what was the final consensus, is the card decent enough in the maindeck?

[Morden]

Only once preboard. But I cast it three times in preboard games (once as a desperation attempt through a Thalia but not for enough, and in the final where I was quite favored after resolving it but still lost).

That's the point. A lot of time I found myself near to victory with goblins, but there was often something that went wrong. 3 creatures */2 are enough to stop the horde, and this deck is not so fast like TES to throw them on the board turn 1-2.
Yes, I think I will take it out from MB.

[Morden]

I've read every recent page of this thread and I can't seem to grasp what the final consensus was on Daze. I'm asking because I'll be playing a tournament on saturday with a completely unknown metagame, and I'm not sure what maindeck I want to run. I really wanted to try Daze in an actual event, but I'm not sure if it's the best to run them if I have absolutely no read on the metagame. So what was the final consensus, is the card decent enough in the maindeck?

ahahahhaah well, it's like the petition debate :laugh: . Someone loves it, others hate it.......try!! My experience: I had 3 daze MB, I removed them for another discard because:

-consistency/linearity: this deck is good at discarding cards. If you want more control of the game, keep on this way. Otherwise, add cantrips, tutor or other.
-daze is useless on the draw (as discards, ok......so why add them?)
-half of the power of this card in THIS deck is that no one expects it. If you reveal it after a nauseam, you loose this advantage G2/G3.
-it's a bad topdeck. Drawing a discard late game is better in general, you can use it to protect your storm against counterspell or to simply +1 the storm counter. Yes, also daze, but I would not reveal it if my opponent doesn't know its existance just to increase the storm counter.
-if your meta is unknow, discard spells are the best way to know who you are facing. In my local meta I know that if a tundra hits the field I'm playing against miracle...... but it could be a stoneblade for you.

Don't get me wrong, daze saved me sometimes, maybe I will use them again, but AT THE MOMENT, in MY meta, is pretty bad.

[ManaT]

I've read every recent page of this thread and I can't seem to grasp what the final consensus was on Daze. I'm asking because I'll be playing a tournament on saturday with a completely unknown metagame, and I'm not sure what maindeck I want to run. I really wanted to try Daze in an actual event, but I'm not sure if it's the best to run them if I have absolutely no read on the metagame. So what was the final consensus, is the card decent enough in the maindeck?

It is good if you know your meta has a lot of preboard hate, otherwise, I think just being faster (ie. no dazes) is better.

[Ronald Deuce]

That's the point. A lot of time I found myself near to victory with goblins, but there was often something that went wrong. 3 creatures */2 are enough to stop the horde, and this deck is not so fast like TES to throw them on the board turn 1-2.
Yes, I think I will take it out from MB.

I think you're right to do that. If you've got a lot of super-fast lockout decks to deal with, you might want to keep it in the main, but I feel like needing to wait a couple of turns to seal the game is dangerous, and Empty's something that people grow to expect if you're running it in the maindeck. One of its major strengths is that you can pull it out of nowhere when people are expecting you to cast Past in Flames or something.

There aren't a ton of matchups in which I bring it in universally, but I feel like hatebear/Chalice games pretty much require it. As soon as any piece of hate comes down, even if we have the means to beat it with removal-plus-Tendrils, we've got a really tight window in which to make that happen (i.e., before either a second hatebear comes down or an Eldrazi guy just flattens us), and oftentimes 12 Goblins will be enough. I don't know that it's worth it to have it in the maindeck, though, because I've found that it often gums up our plays when it really would be better to have a Past in Flames.

If you've got some testing information, I'd really like to hear it!

[Morden]

I think exactly the same, your points are the ones that tell me to put empty main. 2 big issues keep me far from that:

1) miracle: terminus is a dead card normally, I don't really want to give them the possibility to use it.
2) D&T: you need to put a lot of goblin as soon as possible. Batterskull is an huge problem. But also a board with mom, thalia/stonforge, prelate/crusader/brimaz is a lock (if you go all in with goblins they tend to play all the creatures they have, they use their ports/wasteland to produce mana, not to lock you down).

Nauseam is the only alternative plan to tutor chain or pif in my opinion, also as a faster plan. That's why I wanna try to improve this plan and its speed, using rain of filth (on turn 2 is +1 storm +1 mana, getting better on the next turn) and chrome mox. I'm a little scared about the big amount of "mana" I have with this list, that's why I think I'll go down to 14 lands......I don't know, just brainstorming.

[Surfinbird]

Hi again!

After two years without playing magic (no time, no money) i've bought our deck for mtgo and during the last 2 weeks and a half i've been playing 2 tournaments every day more or less. I've done three 5-0, twelve 4-1, eight 3-2 and only eight bad results. I'm running the deck with AdN main, 2 preordain, 6 discard spells, 2 Dark Petition and 15 lands. Only 1 PiF, no EtW in maindeck, no rain of filth, no SDT. In SB i'm running 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Hurkyl's Recall, 2 Tormod's Crypt (my favourite tool against BR Reanimator which is quite porpular online), 2 SDT (Only against miracles or very slow decks, Landstill), 2 Massacre, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Empty the Warrens (against Grixis, UR Delver and Eldrazis and D&T, where the inclusion of 4 decays and massacres/recalls make AdN a bad choice) 1 City of Solitude.

Complete list here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/510132#online

Among all the things i could say about the experience of these weeks the most important one is that i've found in +4 Decay +2 Hurkyl +1 Chain +1 EtW (-1 AdN -3 therapy -1 Duress -2 Preordain -1 Dark Petition) the way to beat eldrazis in 55-60% of the games, a great percentage considering the amount of hate they have. Also, i know that playing 2 Dark Petition sounds weird, but i'm quite happy with them. I never have problems to find business and AdN is good anyways if i play it carefully.

I'll keep posting my results!

[ScottW]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2016-11-27

Did anybody go to the GP?

[thefringthing]

Apparently double Lost Legacy is a thing that can happen.

[.Ix]

I was at the GP and so were Rodrigo and Kai. Kai was on Miracles though. I was on Lands.

[JBentley]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/128/318/636160307610538512.png

I feel this will have some good matchups for storm against certain decks.

[ScottW]

So you'd have to pay the 4 mana up front and 5 with Thalia tax, which means you'd likely have to cast a ritual first, which means a lot of mana. Where would -3 help? Maybe Leovold or possibly more likely to get Mentor and tokens but this doesn't seem like a winning plan against Miracles. The obvious comparison is Massacre. What MU were you thinking? Also to capitalize on the mana investment, you'd want to cast something at 3cmc, which is in short supply with the exception of GT.

[Togores]

I was at Gp chiba with same decklist as prague.

8-1 day 1
2-4 day 2 which is a disaster...

That where my matchup and some notes:

Bye
Bye
Ur delver 2-0 fow ponder & preordain
Taxes 0-2 bs beats. No hate. No bussiness
Eldrazi 2-0 chalice for 1 pay 3
Shardless 2-1
Bant blade 2-0
Eldrazi 2-1
Eurekatell 2-0 with mentor and strix
Eldrazi 1-2
Grixis delver 2-1 no bussines/ no discard
Eldrazi 1-2
Eldrazi 2-1
Miracles 2-0
Wg taxes 1-2 hierarchs + 4 prelate. G3 surgical for my t1 kill

[JBentley]

ScottW. I misread the card thinking it was an instant speed massacre. Which would be nice, but I feel it would be good against Grix Delver and could be against Miracles. Both of which are heavy in my LGS meta. Last IQ I played in I went 4-2 only losing the mirror and Grix Delver. Massacre only helps against Miracles but has nothing for YPZ and those tokens. With this it would allow a main phase wipe with a free cantrip or CR to build up for going off. But that's what I had in mind. I also have found that Kozilek's Return is great for an end of turn clearing. I did it to D&T when they had Mom, Thalia, and 2 Revokers.

[taconaut]

I was at Gp chiba with same decklist as prague.

8-1 day 1
2-4 day 2 which is a disaster...

That where my matchup and some notes:

Bye
Bye
Ur delver 2-0 fow ponder & preordain
Taxes 0-2 bs beats. No hate. No bussiness
Eldrazi 2-0 chalice for 1 pay 3
Shardless 2-1
Bant blade 2-0
Eldrazi 2-1
Eurekatell 2-0 with mentor and strix
Eldrazi 1-2
Grixis delver 2-1 no bussines/ no discard
Eldrazi 1-2
Eldrazi 2-1
Miracles 2-0
Wg taxes 1-2 hierarchs + 4 prelate. G3 surgical for my t1 kill


This set of matchups would put me on tilt - good on you for coming out above 50% on them.

[ScottW]

This set of matchups would put me on tilt - good on you for coming out above 50% on them.

I agree!

@Togores,
I watched you GP prep Twitch stream and really enjoyed the games. I was particularly interested in seeing how you sideboard and hearing your thoughts on this. For instance, you mentioned a reconfigured SB for Miracles players who may anticipate our usual boarding plan. Really neat stuff! It would be great if you could slow down just a bit when you go to sideboard. I had to re-watch the stream to catch a few of these illuminating moments.

[Togores]

Thanks!

You have to plan always ahead. Thats the key to success.

Also I know its harder to see when sideboarding you can ask in the chat and I will try to answer. Also there is always the replay. Or just make screenshots.

[jdmdave]

You're a brave man for bringing storm into that meta. Should've just chickened them out every time a chalice/hate piece resolved.

[Jeff]

Speaking of Eldrazi, and the prospect of facing it all the way through a GP, What are everyone's current sideboard plans for beating it? I'm still settling on a deck for GP Louisville, and while I'm obviously quite aware that this is a terrible deck to play right now, I'm bored enough by the decks that are the "right" option that I'm still considering playing it anyway.

I'm currently testing a sideboard plan that involves bringing in Chrome Moxes and Empty on the play, and no decays or grips of any sort, and only keeping a hand that can either strip a lock piece or combo on turn 1. It's . . . underwhelming. But then again, so is trying to abrupt decay Thorns of Amethyst. Anyone have any better ideas?

[Miscanthus]

Speaking of Eldrazi, and the prospect of facing it all the way through a GP, What are everyone's current sideboard plans for beating it? I'm still settling on a deck for GP Louisville, and while I'm obviously quite aware that this is a terrible deck to play right now, I'm bored enough by the decks that are the "right" option that I'm still considering playing it anyway.

I'm currently testing a sideboard plan that involves bringing in Chrome Moxes and Empty on the play, and no decays or grips of any sort, and only keeping a hand that can either strip a lock piece or combo on turn 1. It's . . . underwhelming. But then again, so is trying to abrupt decay Thorns of Amethyst. Anyone have any better ideas?

I have been having some success lately with this list:

8-blue fetchlands
2-Underground Sea
1-Volcanic Island
1-Tropical Island
1-Island
1-Swamp
4-Lotus Petal
4-Lion's Eye Diamond
1-Chrome Mox
4-Dark Ritual
4-Cabal Ritual
4-Gitaxian Probe
4-Brainstorm
4-Ponder
2-Preordain
4-infernal Tutor
2-Dark Petition
1-Past in Flames
1-Ad Nauseum
1-Tendrils of Agony
3-Duress
3-Cabal Therapy

SB:

3-Abrupt Decay
3-Serenity
2-Xantid Swarm
1-Empty the Warrens
1-Tendrils of Agony
1-Chrome Mox
1-Chain of Vapor
2-Disfigure
1-Tundra

Versus Eldrazi: -3 discard, -2 Preordain, -1 Dark Petition. +1 Empty the Warrens, +1 Chrome Mox, +1 Tundra, +3 Serenity.
It isn't perfect, and Eldrazi is still not a great matchup by any means, but I have noticed my win percentage noticeably higher than it used to be.
An early Serenity on the board has useful applications against decks like Miracles as well. This has also won me a few games recently...

[Jeff]

I'll have to play around with that. I think the chrome mox main is worth testing and I haven't done that yet.


An early Serenity on the board has useful applications against decks like Miracles as well. This has also won me a few games recently...

An early Serenity only buys you one turn where they can't play a counterbalance, and then they just play it the next turn though. Is that really worth it?

[Miscanthus]

An early Serenity only buys you one turn where they can't play a counterbalance, and then they just play it the next turn though. Is that really worth it?

I admit it doesn't sound like much, but in my experience so far, yes.
This window is usually around turn three or four, which is usually plenty of time to have assembled a winning hand for the turn.
A key factor so far has been that it also forces them to activate (or lose) their Sensei's Divining Top that they may have on the board. This deprives of their "floating counterspell" shenanigans for that window also.

[Morden]

I still don't understand how chrome mox is a good solution against eldrazi. IF you are on the play and IF you have them in your opening hand ok, probably you have a fast combo.......but with thorn in play, is a +1storm -2 cards +0mana. Is being super fast the solution to eldrazi? We are far from a belcher/all spells deck, I don't think we can increase our chance to combo off on turn 1 just adding 2-3 cards in the sideboard.

IN THEORY against eldrazi 4 hurkyl and 4 Ceremonious Rejection are "enoough": easy blue mana, cheap cost, very effective. Rejection can also stop the race. But we don't have 30 slots as sideboard, so I still don't have a good plan in mind :laugh:

[Miscanthus]

I still don't understand how chrome mox is a good solution against eldrazi. IF you are on the play and IF you have them in your opening hand ok, probably you have a fast combo.......but with thorn in play, is a +1storm -2 cards +0mana. Is being super fast the solution to eldrazi? We are far from a belcher/all spells deck, I don't think we can increase our chance to combo off on turn 1 just adding 2-3 cards in the sideboard.


I have found so far that being super fast is indeed the best solution (so far) to Eldrazi (and generally good against other permanent based hate decks such as Death and Taxes, etc.). Barring our own very occasional turn-one-tendrils-for-twenty hands, this generally means casting Empty the Warrens or Ad Nauseam as soon as possible (TES style). This is where Chrome Mox shines, as even adding two or three does increase your chances of doing this successfully on turn one ( this is not to say that it "always" happens, but it does occur significantly more often than otherwise).

When going the Empty the Warrens route, casting a Chrome Mox without imprint can be good just to increase your goblin count. This is important, because casting an early horde of even 8 - 10 goblins can often be enough.

When going the Ad Nauseam route, I actually prefer not to see Chrome Mox in my opening hand, as revealing it to Ad Nauseam greatly increases its chance of success (as casting Ad Nauseum with zero mana floating becomes a somewhat less risky proposition).

Ultimately we are not so much trying to be like Belcher or All Spells. Rather, we are trying to take a page out of the TES playbook.
When facing Eldrazi, I usually look to see if I have either a turn one combo route (such as an Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens line mentioned above), or some effective disruption (such as Serenity, discard when on the play, etc.). If I don't have these I seriously consider mulling.

[Alakhai84]

I agree!

@Togores,
I watched you GP prep Twitch stream and really enjoyed the games. I was particularly interested in seeing how you sideboard and hearing your thoughts on this. For instance, you mentioned a reconfigured SB for Miracles players who may anticipate our usual boarding plan. Really neat stuff! It would be great if you could slow down just a bit when you go to sideboard. I had to re-watch the stream to catch a few of these illuminating moments.
Can't find those videos on Rodrigo's twitch page? Did you remove them? :(

[Togores]

Should be in past broadcasts.
Also it can be that already the days passed to twitch erase them.

Today in that huge shop called Hareruya I played against a guy on miracles.
Defeated him g1 and then also all the bunch of sb games we played. Also he didnt knew the grinding sb aproach. Which is good.

Also I won the gp round 2-0 and keep just slaming most og the mirackes players I face. Now the problem is beat thos eldrazi and white decks.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Finally got around to writing my Storm primer, which is the first one to cover a specific list I have written since 2013. Featuring both Ad Nauseam Tendrils and Grinding Station:

https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/12/05/2016-storm-primer/

[Jeff]

Should be in past broadcasts.

Sadly I don't see anything in past broadcasts at all :(

[Morden]

sooooo guys, I need you feedback about this list I'm gonna try in a big tournament in Italy next days.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
1 Preordain
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chrome Mox
1 Rain of Filth
1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 3 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 Flusterstorm

my fears are eldrazi, miracle, and D&T, I expect TONS of them. That's why 7 discards (1 thoughtseize for creatures), mox, rain of filth, I want to generate fast mana as soon as possible and hopefully combo off soon. I used to play 2 pif MD, I think the actual meta doesn't require 2 of them. Confidant is HUGE against miracle, nice against bug also. I decided to split the bouncer in 3 different options to be more versatile, everyone has pros and cons.

[Douif]

Finally got around to writing my Storm primer, which is the first one to cover a specific list I have written since 2013. Featuring both Ad Nauseam Tendrils and Grinding Station:

https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/12/05/2016-storm-primer/

Nice primer Jonathan, thanks !

[Jeff]

I've been really happy with Confidant vs Miracles lately. Much, much happier than in the grinding station approach. Pressuring them with things they have to deal with has proven much more effective than trying to sit back and beat them at the long game. That said, I found my win percentage really does go noticeably down once they start boarding for Confidant. My go-to miracles opponent was originally leaving in 1 Terminus, 1 EE, and 1 Kozilek's Return to deal with creatures post board, and I was significantly ahead on win percentage. When he traded the terminus for 3 StPs, I went back to around 50%. This is with 3 confidants coming in. To combat this, I'm planning to play some Xantid Swarms as well and try to overload the StPs, but obviously this could have it's own problems with sweepers. Let's just say it's a delicate balance the storm player can come out ahead on, but you're going to have to read your opponent right.

I'm actually not bringing in confidant against BUG, since between liliana and Golgari Charm they've got a lot of answers to him, and I don't think he's as necessary as he is vs Miracles.

The only other thought I'd have is that I would play the 4th Therapy and cut a duress if you want the thoughtseize. 4 Therapy is where it's at, especially if you're afraid of creatures. Trimming a therapy for a thoughtseize isn't making a huge difference, while trimming a duress for one is.

[Morden]

The only other thought I'd have is that I would play the 4th Therapy and cut a duress if you want the thoughtseize. 4 Therapy is where it's at, especially if you're afraid of creatures. Trimming a therapy for a thoughtseize isn't making a huge difference, while trimming a duress for one is.

I think you are right. Also because with emtpy MD, therapy from the graveyard it's a thing. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Alakhai84]

my fears are eldrazi, miracle, and D&T, I expect TONS of them. That's why 7 discards (1 thoughtseize for creatures), mox, rain of filth, I want to generate fast mana as soon as possible and hopefully combo off soon. I used to play 2 pif MD, I think the actual meta doesn't require 2 of them. Confidant is HUGE against miracle, nice against bug also. I decided to split the bouncer in 3 different options to be more versatile, everyone has pros and cons. Death and Taxes, Miracle and Eldrazi will be the most played deck and I think that they're the worst matchup for ANT. Expecially Eldrazi with Chalice, Thorn and Thoughtknot Seer that's why this is not the best moment to play this deck, though I really love it. Anyway I think your decklist it's pretty good with good choiches, you just need good pairings and nice draws! ;) Good luck for your tournament! You will really need it!

[Jeff]

Yeah I don't think there's really an argument to be made that Storm is the right deck to play right now. It's objectively bad at the moment. But it's a fun deck to play and sometimes that's enough.

It's very possible I'm gonna play it in Louisville because I'm a better storm player than I am of anything else that is good right now. I could play Delver Mirrors all day, which sounds kind of miserable, or I could just try to kill some people on turn 1.

[Alakhai84]

Yeah I don't think there's really an argument to be made that Storm is the right deck to play right now. It's objectively bad at the moment. But it's a fun deck to play and sometimes that's enough. I agree with you, I would play Storm too but just because I love it and I know it very well. I think that nowadays RB Reanimator is the "new Ant"...has free turn 1 kills and has better eldrazi and miracle matchup. Anyway I hope you will "tendrils 'em all!" ;)

[Jonathan Alexander]

Why are people afraid of Death & Taxes? It by far the deck Storm can most easily adapt to.

[Morden]

Why are people afraid of Death & Taxes? It by far the deck Storm can most easily adapt to.

I'm not, I'd wish I'll face only D&T!! I was just pointing out that the meta here has a big percentage of D&T. My list is made mainly to fight eldrazi and miracle, D&T is not a big menace, that's why only 1 massacre and no dread or specific hate. Empty MD is there only because I have no space in SB...... XD..... it could a dark petition, but let's try to have empty maindeck, maybe it's useful in some circumstances.

[Jeff]

Exactly. It's not D&T itself, it's that I used to have to face D&T a few times a tournament as my bad matchup, and now it's one of my good ones because they can't interact with me at all until turn 2.

[Togores]

Exactly. It's not D&T itself, it's that I used to have to face D&T a few times a tournament as my bad matchup, and now it's one of my good ones because they can't interact with me at all until turn 2.

Until they surgical your turn 1 kill. That happened my last round of the GP fighting for cash :(

[Jeff]

Oh great, another thing to worry about :P

Stupid RB Reanimator, screwing things up for me everywhere.

[SaberTooth]

hi, im goin to play a tournament in a couple of days, could someone give me (with gp prague list) advices of how to sideboard? or at least tell me in which page of this thread can i find this info? thank you :D

[Ronald Deuce]

Why are people afraid of Death & Taxes? It by far the deck Storm can most easily adapt to.

I just have problems with its consistency. It's like if I don't throw down and combo on T1-T2, they just keep playing hatebear after hatebear and I can't break through. I've brought back a singleton Massacre just because it's the only way I know to beat T1 Mom, T2 Thalia, T3 Other Thalia + Canonist/whatever. Try as I might, I can't get my T1-2s high enough to feel like I've really got a good shot at the matchup. (My postboard plan runs an Empty, a PiF, an Ad Nauseam, a Massacre, a Disfigure, two Chains of Vapor, and a Chrome Mox.)

I think it's worth mentioning that this wasn't a problem six months ago. Back then they actually had to find lock-pieces; now, they're more likely to have several of them than none of them.

With that said, I'm not using Daze, which might be the best thing we've got. Not sure. I just don't like running countermagic in a deck that tries to empty its hand.

By the way, thanks for the primer! Good work!

[Jeff]

I've brought back a singleton Massacre just because it's the only way I know to beat T1 Mom, T2 Thalia, T3 Other Thalia + Canonist/whatever.

Yeah, the problem is the massacre plan is fucking terrible against T1 Plains + Vial, T2 Karakas + Thalia. Even worse if they play the vial off of not plains. But once they've got thalia+karakas+vial on 2, dread of night or sulfur elemental or something similar is the only thing that saves you.

They've got a ton of different ways to fuck you, and since its' all just 4of's with no early filtering, your sideboarding is at the mercy of their draws. Awkward place to be. You can lose with massacre against a hand Dread would've killed, and vice versa.

[thefringthing]

Is anyone (other than this guy (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14127&d=284062&f=LE)) sleeving up Leylines of the Void in the hopes of having any game at all against BR Reanimator?

[Miscanthus]

Is anyone (other than this guy (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14127&d=284062&f=LE)) sleeving up Leylines of the Void in the hopes of having any game at all against BR Reanimator?

I've been trying out Faerie Macabre a bit lately. It's been ok in limited testing so far, and pretty funny when they cast Stronghold Gambit on you...

[Jonathan Alexander]

Exactly. It's not D&T itself, it's that I used to have to face D&T a few times a tournament as my bad matchup, and now it's one of my good ones because they can't interact with me at all until turn 2.

When has it ever been a bad matchup? In five years of playing Storm, I have exactly one tournament loss against it (might have one or two on Magic Online as well, not sure).


I just have problems with its consistency. It's like if I don't throw down and combo on T1-T2, they just keep playing hatebear after hatebear and I can't break through. I've brought back a singleton Massacre just because it's the only way I know to beat T1 Mom, T2 Thalia, T3 Other Thalia + Canonist/whatever. Try as I might, I can't get my T1-2s high enough to feel like I've really got a good shot at the matchup.

Both Dread of Night and Daze solve this very easily. Don't think of Daze as countermagic that you're trying to use as protection in your combo turn, think of it as a Chant effect specifically for the non-blue matchups.


Yeah, the problem is the massacre plan is fucking terrible against T1 Plains + Vial, T2 Karakas + Thalia. Even worse if they play the vial off of not plains. But once they've got thalia+karakas+vial on 2, dread of night or sulfur elemental or something similar is the only thing that saves you.

Massacre has always been bad against Death & Taxes. If you want something specifically for them, go with Dread of Night. If you want something less narrow, play Daze.


Is anyone (other than this guy (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14127&d=284062&f=LE)) sleeving up Leylines of the Void in the hopes of having any game at all against BR Reanimator?

Pascal and I had them back in 2013 to go with Helm of Obedience as an alternate win-con. Helm actually had decent value back then because of how common Rest in Peace was (a maindeck card for Miracles at the time). I didn't like it all that much, but Pascal did. I think Surgical is better. Tormod's Crypt and Cage are also somewhat reasonable if you're really concerned about the matchup.

[Jeff]

When has it ever been a bad matchup? In five years of playing Storm, I have exactly one tournament loss against it (might have one or two on Magic Online as well, not sure).

I guess you're just better than me? I don't know. I've been siding Dread of Night against D&T for several years now, and while it's busted as all hell a lot of the time, sometimes you still just get beat. It's not like our average combo turn is before they can play a 2 drop. I've lost a lot of games to turn 2 revoker naming LED when I had an LED heavy draw and couldn't adjust in time, or to a turn 2 Canonist that turned into more damage while I looked for a second Dread of Night.

It probably wasn't a "bad matchup", but it definitely was a "matchup that can force me to have something or I lose". There was a period of time, 3 or 4 years ago, when you could reasonably expect to have a few byes in the field, and D&T was one of those byes, and then they got better and it just isn't anymore. At least for me. I'm glad you have such success against it. I find Dread of Night not killing Cannonist, Thalia2, or Prelate to mean it's not the be-all and end-all anymore. I've definitely lost games where I had a Dread of Night and it didn't matter.

[thefringthing]

Pascal and I had them back in 2013 to go with Helm of Obedience as an alternate win-con. Helm actually had decent value back then because of how common Rest in Peace was (a maindeck card for Miracles at the time). I didn't like it all that much, but Pascal did. I think Surgical is better. Tormod's Crypt and Cage are also somewhat reasonable if you're really concerned about the matchup.What would you cut from your Grinding Station sideboard if you were going to play graveyard hate?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I guess you're just better than me? I don't know.

Sorry, didn't mean to be cocky.

There are definitely ways to lose games against Death & Taxes, but they used to be extremely low on relevant cards G1, so you already had a huge edge there. Then you got to bring Dread of Night after sideboarding and had an even better matchup after sideboarding - whenever you have double Dread, they have a very hard time even establishing any board presence. That being said, I have always run at least three Dread of Night up until GP SeaTac, which obviously makes the matchup better than with lists just running something like 2 Massacre 2 Chain.


What would you cut from your Grinding Station sideboard if you were going to play graveyard hate?

My combo slot is Flusterstorm, but I wouldn't cut them for graveyard hate. I don't think graveyard hate is really worth it. BR Reanimator is not an abysmal matchup by any means, it's not that popular and there's not much outside of that matchup you really want graveyard hate for. Flusterstorm on the other hand is also hugely beneficial against Miracles and Show and Tell strategies, while being decent in the Storm mirror (better than Surgical for sure) and against RB Reanimator. (Daze is not bad against BR either, by the way.)
If you're looking for something against blue Reanimator, Xantid Swarm is your friend.

[thefringthing]

"One Weird Card, Discovered By A Scrub": A Guide To The Spiciest Storm Tech


Do you dip Scotch bonnet chiles in sriracha as a snack? Do you like it when your opponents have to read your cards? If so, it's your lucky day. I've scoured not only mtgtop8.com's database of 13-player Lithuanian Legacy tournaments from 2008 but also the bottom of a shoebox of cards I forgot I even owned to bring you the finest, secretest, spiciest Storm tech on the planet. These ten cards range all the way from okay to awful. I’ve personally sleeved up at least five of them. Now you can too.

1. Rushing River

No one’s ever going to have to read your Abrupt Decay. That’s why you need stuff like Rushing River. It’s a three-mana bounce spell that lets you trade a land for a second bounce. It might work against Chalice of the Void or Counterbalance, assuming your opponent doesn’t also have a either a Thorn of Amethyst and a Lodestone Golem or fistful of countermagic.

2. Crystal Vein

Need a way to very occasionally speed up your combo by a turn while also making your manabase suck? Singleton Crystal Vein has your back. Someone once asked me to lend him one of these at a Grand Prix because I seemed to him like the kind of guy who would have a Crystal Vein in a box somewhere. He was correct. Check out the spray tan on that guy in the art.

3. Sphinx of the Final Word

People will tell you that Miracles is the best deck in Legacy. That’s absurd. All you have to do to beat Miracles with your Storm deck is somehow resolve a ritual, then another ritual, then have two more blue mana kicking around somewhere, then cast this guy. Then just make sure he doesn’t die any time in the next four or five turns to the Terminus your opponent kept in their deck to ruin any Goblin token related plans you may have had. I can tell you from experience that flipping this with Ad Nauseam is pretty strong.

4. Ingot Chewer

What’s the most playable Evoke creature, you ask? Not Mulldrifter. Not Reveillark either. It’s a 3/3 Shatter guy. Joins Rushing River in the category of ways to compulsively avoid playing Abrupt Decay. In this fantasy card game with wizards and dragons, you definitely want to be playing this, uh… mole-worm? Yeah.

5. Teferi's Realm

Against Eldrazi and Death & Taxes, this costs too much to cast. Against Miracles, you end up with a draw because of the time it took to explain what “Enchant World” and “phasing” mean. Easily the best art on the list.

6. Telemin Performance

Sometimes you get them. Sometimes you get their Griselbrand. Sometimes you get their miser’s Simian Spirit Guide.

7. Ignorant Bliss

I want to see someone play this. And then I want to see them get the delayed trigger Stifled.

8. Brainspoil

Some people play Burning Wish in their Storm deck. It turns out, however, that Ad Nauseam is an instant. These days, if you want to wish for Ad Nauseam, all you need is one copy of Dark Petition in your sideboard, spell mastery, and nine mana. Once upon a time, however, you had to either trim an Infernal Tutor from the maindeck, shell out your lunch money for the next couple of years on a Grim Tutor, or sleeve up a Brainspoil. And as a bonus, you can two-for-one yourself to destroy an unenchanted creature for only seven mana! And it can’t be regenerated! That’s value.

9. Time Reversal

You know how every time an expensive blue card that looks kind of like Timetwister or Time Walk if you squint really hard gets spoiled, everyone runs around shouting about emergency banned list updates? Me neither. Anyway, somebody played this card in a tournament once. I assume the store only had white border copies Diminishing Returns.

10. Tranquil Domain

I’m only 60% sure I’ve even seen a list that had this in it. Maybe it was in a dream. I do know I paid more than zero dollars for a playset of them.

[Ronald Deuce]

"One Weird Card, Discovered By A Scrub": A Guide To The Spiciest Storm Tech

Do you dip Scotch bonnet chiles in sriracha as a snack? Do you like it when your opponents have to read your cards? If so, it's your lucky day. I've scoured not only mtgtop8.com's database of 13-player Lithuanian Legacy tournaments from 2008 but also the bottom of a shoebox of cards I forgot I even owned to bring you the finest, secretest, spiciest Storm tech on the planet. These ten cards range all the way from okay to awful. I’ve personally sleeved up at least five of them. Now you can too.
1. Rushing River
No one’s ever going to have to read your Abrupt Decay. That’s why you need stuff like Rushing River. It’s a three-mana bounce spell that lets you trade a land for a second bounce. It might work against Chalice of the Void or Counterbalance, assuming your opponent doesn’t also have a either a Thorn of Amethyst and a Lodestone Golem or fistful of countermagic.
2. Crystal Vein
Need a way to very occasionally speed up your combo by a turn while also making your manabase suck? Singleton Crystal Vein has your back. Someone once asked me to lend him one of these at a Grand Prix because I seemed to him like the kind of guy who would have a Crystal Vein in a box somewhere. He was correct. Check out the spray tan on that guy in the art.
3. Sphinx of the Final Word
People will tell you that Miracles is the best deck in Legacy. That’s absurd. All you have to do to beat Miracles with your Storm deck is somehow resolve a ritual, then another ritual, then have two more blue mana kicking around somewhere, then cast this guy. Then just make sure he doesn’t die any time in the next four or five turns to the Terminus your opponent kept in their deck to ruin any Goblin token related plans you may have had. I can tell you from experience that flipping this with Ad Nauseam is pretty strong.
4. Ingot Chewer
What’s the most playable Evoke creature, you ask? Not Mulldrifter. Not Reveillark either. It’s a 3/3 Shatter guy. Joins Rushing River in the category of ways to compulsively avoid playing Abrupt Decay. In this fantasy card game with wizards and dragons, you definitely want to be playing this, uh… mole-worm? Yeah.
5. Teferi's Realm
Against Eldrazi and Death & Taxes, this costs too much to cast. Against Miracles, you end up with a draw because of the time it took to explain what “Enchant World” and “phasing” mean. Easily the best art on the list.
6. Telemin Performance
Sometimes you get them. Sometimes you get their Griselbrand. Sometimes you get their miser’s Simian Spirit Guide.
7. Ignorant Bliss
I want to see someone play this. And then I want to see them get the delayed trigger Stifled.
8. Brainspoil
Some people play Burning Wish in their Storm deck. It turns out, however, that Ad Nauseam is an instant. These days, if you want to wish for Ad Nauseam, all you need is one copy of Dark Petition in your sideboard, spell mastery, and nine mana. Once upon a time, however, you had to either trim an Infernal Tutor from the maindeck, shell out your lunch money for the next couple of years on a Grim Tutor, or sleeve up a Brainspoil. And as a bonus, you can two-for-one yourself to destroy an unenchanted creature for only seven mana! And it can’t be regenerated! That’s value.
9. Time Reversal
You know how every time an expensive blue card that looks kind of like Timetwister or Time Walk if you squint really hard gets spoiled, everyone runs around shouting about emergency banned list updates? Me neither. Anyway, somebody played this card in a tournament once. I assume the store only had white border copies Diminishing Returns.
10. Tranquil Domain
I’m only 60% sure I’ve even seen a list that had this in it. Maybe it was in a dream. I do know I paid more than zero dollars for a playset of them.

I sincerely want to test Slaughter Games against Miracles. I also wish I could sig this whole post.


Don't think of Daze as countermagic that you're trying to use as protection in your combo turn, think of it as a Chant effect specifically for the non-blue matchups.

For sure; the problem is that I've played several games in which I couldn't empty my hand because I had something like a land or a cantrip in hand that I couldn't shed. I don't want to stress LED further by running responsive stuff (esp. if it often means we need to put a land in hand). Of course, the Chrome Mox might help.

Have you found Daze to work ok alongside Ad Nauseam? I worry that adding 2-cmc cards might cause problems there. Apologies if these are questions/concerns you've addressed previously; I'm just wondering what you think after testing in this metagame.

[Sloshthedark]

"One Weird Card, Discovered By A Scrub": A Guide To The Spiciest Storm Tech


Actually 6/10 in my Storm binder... would add

Plague Spitter
Ground Seal
Culling Scales

which I have all registered in a tournament at one point, but the definitely most advanced is the DDFT tech - Edge of Autumn

[rlesko]

"One Weird Card, Discovered By A Scrub": A Guide To The Spiciest Storm Tech


Do you dip Scotch bonnet chiles in sriracha as a snack? Do you like it when your opponents have to read your cards? If so, it's your lucky day. I've scoured not only mtgtop8.com's database of 13-player Lithuanian Legacy tournaments from 2008 but also the bottom of a shoebox of cards I forgot I even owned to bring you the finest, secretest, spiciest Storm tech on the planet. These ten cards range all the way from okay to awful. I’ve personally sleeved up at least five of them. Now you can too.

1. Rushing River

No one’s ever going to have to read your Abrupt Decay. That’s why you need stuff like Rushing River. It’s a three-mana bounce spell that lets you trade a land for a second bounce. It might work against Chalice of the Void or Counterbalance, assuming your opponent doesn’t also have a either a Thorn of Amethyst and a Lodestone Golem or fistful of countermagic.

2. Crystal Vein

Need a way to very occasionally speed up your combo by a turn while also making your manabase suck? Singleton Crystal Vein has your back. Someone once asked me to lend him one of these at a Grand Prix because I seemed to him like the kind of guy who would have a Crystal Vein in a box somewhere. He was correct. Check out the spray tan on that guy in the art.

3. Sphinx of the Final Word

People will tell you that Miracles is the best deck in Legacy. That’s absurd. All you have to do to beat Miracles with your Storm deck is somehow resolve a ritual, then another ritual, then have two more blue mana kicking around somewhere, then cast this guy. Then just make sure he doesn’t die any time in the next four or five turns to the Terminus your opponent kept in their deck to ruin any Goblin token related plans you may have had. I can tell you from experience that flipping this with Ad Nauseam is pretty strong.

4. Ingot Chewer

What’s the most playable Evoke creature, you ask? Not Mulldrifter. Not Reveillark either. It’s a 3/3 Shatter guy. Joins Rushing River in the category of ways to compulsively avoid playing Abrupt Decay. In this fantasy card game with wizards and dragons, you definitely want to be playing this, uh… mole-worm? Yeah.

5. Teferi's Realm

Against Eldrazi and Death & Taxes, this costs too much to cast. Against Miracles, you end up with a draw because of the time it took to explain what “Enchant World” and “phasing” mean. Easily the best art on the list.

6. Telemin Performance

Sometimes you get them. Sometimes you get their Griselbrand. Sometimes you get their miser’s Simian Spirit Guide.

7. Ignorant Bliss

I want to see someone play this. And then I want to see them get the delayed trigger Stifled.

8. Brainspoil

Some people play Burning Wish in their Storm deck. It turns out, however, that Ad Nauseam is an instant. These days, if you want to wish for Ad Nauseam, all you need is one copy of Dark Petition in your sideboard, spell mastery, and nine mana. Once upon a time, however, you had to either trim an Infernal Tutor from the maindeck, shell out your lunch money for the next couple of years on a Grim Tutor, or sleeve up a Brainspoil. And as a bonus, you can two-for-one yourself to destroy an unenchanted creature for only seven mana! And it can’t be regenerated! That’s value.

9. Time Reversal

You know how every time an expensive blue card that looks kind of like Timetwister or Time Walk if you squint really hard gets spoiled, everyone runs around shouting about emergency banned list updates? Me neither. Anyway, somebody played this card in a tournament once. I assume the store only had white border copies Diminishing Returns.

10. Tranquil Domain

I’m only 60% sure I’ve even seen a list that had this in it. Maybe it was in a dream. I do know I paid more than zero dollars for a playset of them.

How does ground seal not make this list!?

[CabalTherapy]

How does ground seal not make this list!?

Been there, done that:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19635&iddeck=149468

[rlesko]

Been there, done that:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19635&iddeck=149468

How did it treat you? I am thinking it could be good vs all these deathrite / therapy / surgical decks that seem to be getting popular as well as snapcaster mage

[CabalTherapy]

How did it treat you? I am thinking it could be good vs all these deathrite / therapy / surgical decks that seem to be getting popular as well as snapcaster mage

I tried it when everyone was playing BUG Delver locally. It's basically a cycle that may do some work but definitely not worth running since it's simply too narrow and weak.

[thefringthing]

For real though, the temptation to cut all the Abrupt Decays and Dazes and just run Teferi's Realms maindeck is real.

[rlesko]

I tried it when everyone was playing BUG Delver locally. It's basically a cycle that may do some work but definitely not worth running since it's simply too narrow and weak.

I honestly may give it a try and see how it goes. Seems like surgical extraction is seeing a resurgence and every blue deck seems to be playing deathrite / cabal therapy / snapcaster mage. Could be my sideboard for grixis / 4c delver

[Sloshthedark]

Been there, done that:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19635&iddeck=149468

funny singleton? weak ;) ... http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57807

[Dr_D]

funny singleton? weak ;) ... http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57807

What matchups is notion thief good in?

[thefringthing]

What matchups is notion thief good in?
0th Place at Test deck on 7/28/2013

I played some test games with the Jon Alexander's Grinding Station against Eldrazi. Lost every post-board game. I'd Daze a Chalice very consistently and then just die before I could go off.

[Ronald Deuce]

I played some test games with the Jon Alexander's Grinding Station against Eldrazi. Lost every post-board game. I'd Daze a Chalice very consistently and then just die before I could go off.

I have similar problems whenever I go the grindy route. A lot of that on my part has to do with inexperience, but I feel like there's a marked lack of flexibility in builds with multiple Tendrils, even against slower decks for which a grindier approach follows the prevailing wisdom. I've played plenty of games against Miracles in which I had double-Tendrils in hand, but there was no way to find added mana sources before CounterTop cleared the way for Monastery Mentor and his bros to bring the noise. There's no way around it—Tendrils does what it does, and that's unqualifiedly awesome, but it doesn't find other cards we need, it doesn't push through hate, and it costs four mana and a number of other spells to work its magic.

I don't have experience running Daze in Grinding Station, but I don't think Daze sounds like it's the problem. From what little I've played and seen, it feels to me like Grinding Station is perhaps in a worse spot than more Ad Nauseam-oriented AnT builds against Eldrazi. Speed appears to be the key, and even with the simple switch of one Petition for another Past in Flames, I've seen a marked decrease in T1-2 combos in a more speed-oriented AnT build. (As an aside, after switching out my singleton Petition for a Chrome Mox and going down to four tutors, I've had no problems and better Ad Nauseas. I guess I'm finally learning.)

Even considering various posters' positive experiences with Daze (which I don't mean to dismiss), I'm skeptical, but I feel like there's a more fundamental problem we face against Eldrazi, which is that they're really fast to put down a lock and follow that with hand disruption and overwhelming damage.

Is it worth it to try variegated hate-cards, or should we just go for speed? I haven't faced Eldrazi in a couple of months, but at this point, I'd cut a Past in Flames, a Preordain, and two Duresses for Empty, a fifteenth land, and two Hurkyl's Recalls.

[acidhead]

I don't think that it's a good plan to replace spot-removal with a "opponent choose which sort of cards phase out". Regarding Ground Seals: The meta is so full with Deathrite Shamans and Surgicals that it is tempting to use them. I will give them a try but I'm not convinced.

I went 6-3 in mkmseries prague and won a small tournament with this list. I'm really pleased with it and would only fiddle on some sideboard cards.

Deck: ANT (https://deckstats.net/deck-11877312-9b0670b3208f9e2412724e13a6214995-en.html) https://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif

//Maindeck
1 Ad Nauseam (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ad+Nauseam)
1 Grim Tutor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Grim+Tutor)
4 Infernal Tutor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Infernal+Tutor)
2 Past in Flames (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Past+in+Flames)
4 Lotus Petal (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lotus+Petal)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lion%27s+Eye+Diamond)
4 Cabal Ritual (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cabal+Ritual)
4 Dark Ritual (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Dark+Ritual)
3 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cabal+Therapy)
3 Duress (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Duress)
4 Gitaxian Probe (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Gitaxian+Probe)
4 Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
4 Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ponder)
2 Preordain (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Preordain)
1 Badlands (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Badlands)
1 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
4 Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Polluted+Delta)
4 Scalding Tarn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Scalding+Tarn)
1 Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)
1 Tendrils of Agony (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tendrils+of+Agony)
1 Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tropical+Island)
2 Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
1 Volcanic Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Volcanic+Island)

//Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Abrupt+Decay)
1 Ancient Grudge (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ancient+Grudge)
1 Bayou (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bayou)
2 Disfigure (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Disfigure)
1 Empty the Warrens (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Empty+the+Warrens)
1 Extirpate (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Extirpate)
1 Flusterstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Flusterstorm)
1 Karakas (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Karakas)
1 Krosan Grip (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Krosan+Grip)
1 Sensei's Divining Top (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top)
2 Tendrils of Agony (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tendrils+of+Agony)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (https://deckstats.net/deck-11877312-9b0670b3208f9e2412724e13a6214995.html)

[CabalTherapy]

I don't think that it's a good plan to replace spot-removal with a "opponent choose which sort of cards phase out". Regarding Ground Seals: The meta is so full with Deathrite Shamans and Surgicals that it is tempting to use them. I will give them a try but I'm not convinced.

I went 6-3 in mkmseries prague and won a small tournament with this list. I'm really pleased with it and would only fiddle on some sideboard cards.


The classic Berlin CT (speak City) storm15 list. Keep on storming, acid.

[d00mwake]

Hello all! I am new to this website but have been playing magic for almost 15 years now and have played my fair share of legacy tournaments with a variety of decks. I played ANT for a bit sometime early in 2016 but haven't played with it much since, and am looking to get back into it. I built a fairly stock version of it on Magic Online, and after going through the last couple pages of this thread a question came to mind: why Grim Tutor over Dark Petition? Like I said I don't have a ton of experience with the deck but I did play a copy of Petition when I was playing it(obviously I didn't have access to Grim at the time), but online Grim Tutor is a fraction of what it is IRL so it is very easily accessible. Can someone go over the pros/cons for playing Tutor over Petition? Much appreciated!

[Morden]

Hello all! I am new to this website but have been playing magic for almost 15 years now and have played my fair share of legacy tournaments with a variety of decks. I played ANT for a bit sometime early in 2016 but haven't played with it much since, and am looking to get back into it. I built a fairly stock version of it on Magic Online, and after going through the last couple pages of this thread a question came to mind: why Grim Tutor over Dark Petition? Like I said I don't have a ton of experience with the deck but I did play a copy of Petition when I was playing it(obviously I didn't have access to Grim at the time), but online Grim Tutor is a fraction of what it is IRL so it is very easily accessible. Can someone go over the pros/cons for playing Tutor over Petition? Much appreciated!

- petition usually requires other cards to be played, like nauseam; 1 or 2 rituals, so you must be sure that path is clear, otherwise you've lost more that 1 cards
- due to its high mana cost, it's more vulnerable to soft counters. It's easier to dodge daze with a 2-3 cmc spell.
- it doesn't synergize well with ad nauseam. Indeed, if you cast grim tutor after ad nauseam the damage you take is basically the same..... but maybe you have another line to win, that doesn't use the grim tutor.
- you don't need spell mastery. This makes grim tutor a better tutor on turn 1-2, normally in combination with empty the warrens for a quick win. In general, usually post side when the yard is more vulnerable to hate, having spell mastery is a little more complicated.

[Ronald Deuce]

Hello all! I am new to this website but have been playing magic for almost 15 years now and have played my fair share of legacy tournaments with a variety of decks. I played ANT for a bit sometime early in 2016 but haven't played with it much since, and am looking to get back into it. I built a fairly stock version of it on Magic Online, and after going through the last couple pages of this thread a question came to mind: why Grim Tutor over Dark Petition? Like I said I don't have a ton of experience with the deck but I did play a copy of Petition when I was playing it(obviously I didn't have access to Grim at the time), but online Grim Tutor is a fraction of what it is IRL so it is very easily accessible. Can someone go over the pros/cons for playing Tutor over Petition? Much appreciated!

Morden pretty much covered Grim Tutor's advantages. Worth pointing out that looping Grim is really agonizing, and I personally don't think it synergizes with Ad Nauseam at all. Grim is better for fast Empty and tutoring for answers to hate cards, and it's not as big a problem if it gets countered (though if either gets countered, it's really bad), but generally Petition's better for Past in Flames loops and it costs you less life off of Ad Nauseam to reveal and cast Petition than it does to reveal and cast Grim (with the caveat Morden mentioned earlier).

I guess my thinking is that the whole deck generally revolves around the Past in Flames-Tutor kill; by far that's been the biggest portion of my wins with the deck. Though Grim Tutor's better for most other things we might want to do, it's substantially worse in a loop with Past in Flames—and, for that matter, in a Tutor-for-Tutor-for-[card] chain.

Personally, I don't run either one right now. I might bring back a singleton Petition at some point, but I don't have any desire to run Grim.

[laststepdown]

4-0 first place at my LGS this Tuesday, borrowed most of this except what I own from what I usually play, dredge, so pardon my ignorance regarding the entire archetype. This is the third week in a row I've gotten first place at this store, the last two times were with dredge, so I felt I should switch gears vs the local players who obviously now don't want to be friends with me after coming back to the game with over a years' absence and beating all of them. So I guess the plan worked out perfectly.


2-1 Junk (opponent turn 1 raises an eyebrow 'polluted delta? interesting.' he played vs my dredge the week prior. turn 2 after 18 tokens 'wouldn't of put you on storm...')
2-0 Infect
2-1 Omnisneak
2-0 Jund

I made a few misplays, so it felt good to know I have room to be improving. Staying competitive locally is sometimes just like listening to a record, sometimes you need to pick the needle up and notch it into a new groove. Keeps things fresh.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

SB
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Disfigure
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox

The 4th Therapy was there really to fill a board slot with 10 minutes left until round 1 and still needing to sleeve. I'm looking to tighten up the list for when I get tired of dredge again. Anyways, some noob questions for the more active pilots, since the last time I really played legacy storm consistently it ran 4x Leyline of the Void and 4x Ill-Gotten Gains in the main, back in like 2004-2005, to try and mind twist people turn 1. We called it Iggy Pop or whatever. Fun times for all. Here we go with my questions:

Am I running one more fetch land than necessary? I did feel a bit land heavy, and light on gas in a few mid-late games. Maybe I should put a Chrome Mox in main? That might open a board slot?

Why are people usually running 2 Past in Flames in main?

In what matchups do I want more than one Tendrils or Warrens? I know my singleton Tendrils and Warrens probably makes the deck more of a glass cannon-I do play dredge usually so I'm used to it-but that doesn't mean it's correct in the current meta. My friend only had one of each laying around when I slopped this together, but I didn't feel loose without extra copies vs any of the decks I played Tuesday. I do see more copies somewhere in most other 75's.

That's about it for now. Sorry for my ignorance, and thanks ahead of time for any help with my inquiries regarding the archetype.

[Ronald Deuce]

Good job, Laststepdown!

I'm not an expert, but here's what I think:


Am I running one more fetch land than necessary? I did feel a bit land heavy, and light on gas in a few mid-late games. Maybe I should put a Chrome Mox in main? That might open a board slot?

This one's a bit of a point of contention. I don't like having 15 lands in the maindeck, but a lot of people feel the opposite. I feel like I flood out on 15; other people feel like they can't find lands on 14. I am running a Mox in my maindeck, though it's the card that's most open for switching.

Usually, I think people who run 15 lands run a green source instead of a ninth fetchland. Not sure whether that's better or worse because I haven't tested with a ninth fetch.


Why are people usually running 2 Past in Flames in main?

This is something I took a really long time to accept. It looks worse than an extra tutor on paper because it's not as flexible, but it does two things I'm beginning to think are crucial:
—Double-PiF is stellar against countermagic. With only a singleton, it's hard to find one frequently enough to make a hand like mana, mana, LED, Tutor, PiF. What that does is it forces your opponent to either counter your mana spells, which leaves you open to comboing later, or they get forked because you can tutor for a discard spell, then flashback the tutor with Past in Flames even if the tutor gets countered.
—Past in Flames works excellently with a graveyard full of cantrips. I was skeptical for a long time, but if you've got the mana, you can—surprisingly often—dig enough cards to find business by reusing the cantrips you'd cast during the initial turns. So it's not really a problem to run 4-5 tutors with 2x PiF, because the PiF often works just as well. (N.B.: this changes depending on the matchup. I often side out the second Past in Flames when I'm facing graveyard hate but not countermagic; coincidentally, these are often matchups where Empty the Warrens is really good.)


In what matchups do I want more than one Tendrils or Warrens?

Generally, I don't think you need more than one Tendrils in the maindeck. Empty is a judgment call; depends on the metagame, among other things. The extra Tendrils are for matchups like Miracles and Burn; I don't bring them in for other matchups because I just don't feel like they're necessary. If you're going with one Past in Flames, you might try bringing in a second Tendrils instead of Dark Petition against countermagic-heavy decks.

[taconaut]

Just to chime in; I agree with Ronald on his various assessments, though I personally like the petition over the second past in flames and 15 lands over 14. I play eight fetches, two basics, and one green source.

Does anyone still play disfigure in the SB? I usually run two, and was wondering if people thought Fatal Push would be better in that slot.

Thoughts?

[HansoRaptor]

Does anyone still play disfigure in the SB? I usually run two, and was wondering if people thought Fatal Push would be better in that slot.
Thoughts?

Well in which cases is it not better than Disfigure?
I would definitely replace any Disfigures with Fatal Push.

[fangzie]

Does anyone still play disfigure in the SB? I usually run two, and was wondering if people thought Fatal Push would be better in that slot.

Thoughts?

I do. I think disfigure is great, especially in a DnT heavy meta. 1 cmc removal that can be cast using only basics is often game-winning. The reason I'm wary of fatal push is purely due to prelate. Fatal push is better in every situation except when it comes to prelate, where you will likely have to fetch to hit the second condition, and likely expose a non-basic to wasteland in order to remove it. Disfigure just removes it. I don't think there are many other creatures that I care about that fatal push will hit and disfigure won't. THings like goyf, I'm just as happy to use decay. I will be testing it, I'm just not sure it's strictly better yet

[Ronald Deuce]

Three targets come to mind that Push doesn't stop: Leovold, Prelate, and new Thalia. With that said, I'm interested to try it; I've still got a Disfigure in my sideboard.

[Sloshthedark]

this, also Leovold will be a problem

...

[Styroxis]

Hey guys first post here. I found this right before GP Louisville and read about the last 40 pages of posts for info on sideboarding and anything helpful for the GP. I used the info to update my sideboard guide (I would greatly appreciate your guys input here; I have some questions about certain matchups) and played my list with thoughtseize instead of xantid swarm.
Here is my sb guide and List:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QvwhWCRP_voY-DSbF65ShqpWGLRSvoivCwf88HYHZKY/pub


I ended up 0-4 drop. Here is how the day went.

Round 1: Dredge
G1: L, G2: W. G3: L
It was a tough matchup, as my opp combos quicker and has free cabal therapies. I was able to get game two because my opp fumbled on his dredges. G1 and G3 I didn't have much of a chance with all the cabal therapies ripping my hand.

Round 2: D&T
G1: W, G2: L, G3:L
G1 OTP I comboed off on turn 2. G2, G3 he had vial turn 1 followed by ethersworn canonist or thalia on turn 2 and then would play the other turn 3 and either a recruiter or natural prelate to lock me out. Wasn't able to draw exactly what I needed to keep up and deal with all the hate.

Round 3: Punishing Jund
G1: W. G2: L, G3: L
G1 OTD pif kill turn 3 after he gave me 2 basics from explorer and through an ooze with 2 green open. G2 he plays a DRS turn 1 and on turn 2 plays another DRS and a gaddock teeg. Wasn't able to get enough mana with a couple of cabal rituals I had in hand after killing teeg. G3: I am able to get through his hateful permanents and cast an Ad Naus. Flip over the cards and clearly see the win if I can play the fetch land. I need one more mana to be able to play 2x cabal rituals revealed. I ask my opponent if I played a land this turn and he says yes you played a volcanic island. I go deeper with Ad Naus and put myself at 1 life unable to fetch with the only land revealed and dont find any lotus petals and stop. At this point I need to hit a pif to go off with Leds. I go to cast a preordain and look at my GY I realize that I played my land last turn. Call a judge. We explain everything to him and he says that my opp misrepresented info. The judge walks away from the table to think. My opp turns to his friend and cracks a smile and says, "got to play to your outs." I tell the judge this and he dismisses it. We go over everything one more time and he says that he is not going to rewind the Ad Naus, but he will let me rewind the preordain. Cast preordain and see no pif.

Round 4: 4c Loam
G1: L, G2: W G3: L
Game one opp was on the play and on turn 2 got a chalice on one. I wasn't able to assemble what I needed before I was beat down. G2: I was OTP and discarded his chalice turn one and went off turn 2. G3: Kept a hand 2xLED, 1xIT, 2xDark ritual, island, volcanic. I decided I couldn't ship a turn 1 kill if I draw a black source. He starts with a mox, land, and CotV on one. I top deck a polluted delta, play a land, and pass the turn. He then plays a gaddock teeg and later a thalia and prelate and is able to beat me down before I am able to do anything.

It was my worst tournament ever. I have been playing storm for around a year and a half and I made day 2 of GP Columbus X-2 and top 8 every local Comp legacy tournament. I know I made one mistake against dredge and maybe one or two more, but I have never done this poorly. I went in thinking that storm was not the best deck to play, but I didn't imagine doing this poorly. I just felt like everyone had really strong hate cards and the meta game was not favorable for storm. Should I just not be playing storm now?

[Jeff]

Should I just not be playing storm now?

That was my conclusion for this tournament. I went 10-5 with BR Reanimator. Walking into a room with that many Counterbalances, Thalias, Prelates, and Chalices didn't seem optimal, and that's ignoring the Eidolons that are sure to show up at any GP regardless of how good the deck is. I wanted a combo deck that was fast enough to race all the 2 CMC permanents reliably, and one that had a better chance of winning through a chalice on 1 than ANT.

ANT keeps putting up results, but I don't really understand how. Honestly, if I had to guess, there are just a bunch of people still forcing it, and with enough people playing some people will just get there and break through. It doesn't feel like the place to be.

[Miscanthus]

That was my conclusion for this tournament. I went 10-5 with BR Reanimator. Walking into a room with that many Counterbalances, Thalias, Prelates, and Chalices didn't seem optimal, and that's ignoring the Eidolons that are sure to show up at any GP regardless of how good the deck is. I wanted a combo deck that was fast enough to race all the 2 CMC permanents reliably, and one that had a better chance of winning through a chalice on 1 than ANT.

ANT keeps putting up results, but I don't really understand how. Honestly, if I had to guess, there are just a bunch of people still forcing it, and with enough people playing some people will just get there and break through. It doesn't feel like the place to be.

Perhaps it's worth noting though, that eldrazi (this deck's greatest nemesis) has not been putting up too many great results at tournaments lately. People seem to be getting pretty wise to it, and I cannot help but notice that many of the popular decks doing well against eldrazi (and the current metagame in general) are often decent matchups for ANT.
Somehow I doubt ANT will stay down for long...

[Jeff]

Perhaps it's worth noting though, that eldrazi (this deck's greatest nemesis) has not been putting up too many great results at tournaments lately. People seem to be getting pretty wise to it, and I cannot help but notice that many of the popular decks doing well against eldrazi (and the current metagame in general) are often decent matchups for ANT.
Somehow I doubt ANT will stay down for long...

BR Reanimator, which was in the finals of GP Lousiville, is a **terrible** matchup for ANT though. And it's going to get more popular.

ANT is never gonna go away. It's storm. You can win on turn 1 through just about anything with the right hand. And no matter how hostile the format, people will play it, and some people will do well with it. I just don't think it's necessarily a good decision to sleeve it up for a major tournament right now. It's a polarizing enough deck that even in the world's most hostile format someone will still randomly spike a tournament, but that won't change the fact that 30 or 40 people crashed and bombed with it in the same event.

[Jeff]

Three targets come to mind that Push doesn't stop: Leovold, Prelate, and new Thalia. With that said, I'm interested to try it; I've still got a Disfigure in my sideboard.

It does stop all 3 of those if you fetch first.

[Ronald Deuce]

It does stop all 3 of those if you fetch first.

Absolutely; the thought had crossed my mind. I was analyzing it in a vacuum (primarily because I'm a bit of a pessimist), but it does get much stronger with fetches, Petals, etc.

Regarding whether our deck's in an optimal spot, just looking at mtgtop8, it does look like Storm is bouncing back. I'm sort of surprised, to be honest, primarily because Reanimator's burning up the playmats, but I'm not complaining.

These questions might be retreading old ground, but I'm getting more and more interested in trying Flusterstorm; how much use are you guys getting out of it these days? Which matchups are the ones in which it really shines right now?

I've been looking back on games I've played lately to determine whether I think it would've helped, and I'm on the fence.

[Miscanthus]

Regarding whether our deck's in an optimal spot, just looking at mtgtop8, it does look like Storm is bouncing back. I'm sort of surprised, to be honest, primarily because Reanimator's burning up the playmats, but I'm not complaining.

These questions might be retreading old ground, but I'm getting more and more interested in trying Flusterstorm; how much use are you guys getting out of it these days? Which matchups are the ones in which it really shines right now?

I've been looking back on games I've played lately to determine whether I think it would've helped, and I'm on the fence.

I have actually found Flusterstorm (and Surgical Extraction) to be very effective against B/r Reanimator.

On a similar note, while it is by no means a "great" matchup, in my experience so far the B/r
Reanimator is really not as bad as it's made out to be...and in fact arguably a better matchup for us than the U/B version. While they are indeed faster than us, not having Brainstorm, Force of Will, and Daze makes them also considerably less resilient if their combo is disrupted in any way (such as via Flusterstorm or Surgical Extraction). Also, I have found that a resolved Griselbrand is not necessarily game over for us if they resolve it, unlike the U/B version which can (and does) draw into any number of Force of Will, Daze, etc. to put the game out of reach for us.
A resolved Chancellor of the Annex is actually a bigger/more immediate problem, but like Thalia 1.0, it is not an insurmountable one.

[Styroxis]

Flusterstorm is great. I bring it in against miracles G3 sometimes, mirror, Show & tell, reanimator, elves, infect, and sometimes hymn decks. If you want more specifics you can see how I side here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QvwhWCRP_voY-DSbF65ShqpWGLRSvoivCwf88HYHZKY/pub
I feel like its one of the best cards to bring in against faster combo decks. Another axis to attack your opponent besides discard.

I definitely have noticed there being less eldrazi in the US metagame, but the rise of B/R reanimator is still concerning. I think it is definitely not favorable for us, but it is still a better matchuup than eldrazi. Also something I have noticed in US GPs is that in the general metagame there are not that many miracles players. There is a widespread of combo decks and grindy midrange decks, but miracles I don't see as much. I know that there will always be experienced miracles players at any big tournament you go to, so that is a matchup you need to prepare for at least for day 2. Where I'm going with this is maybe it is time to run Scherer ANT list (at least in the US) over Togores list. I'm a big fan of Togores list, but I feel like a more consistent goldfish is exactly what storm players want in the US. If we look at storm results in the US, it seems like Scherer is one of the few consistent storm players. Let me know what you guys think about this

[Miscanthus]

Flusterstorm is great. I bring it in against miracles G3 sometimes, mirror, Show & tell, reanimator, elves, infect, and sometimes hymn decks. If you want more specifics you can see how I side here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QvwhWCRP_voY-DSbF65ShqpWGLRSvoivCwf88HYHZKY/pub
I feel like its one of the best cards to bring in against faster combo decks. Another axis to attack your opponent besides discard.

I definitely have noticed there being less eldrazi in the US metagame, but the rise of B/R reanimator is still concerning. I think it is definitely not favorable for us, but it is still a better matchuup than eldrazi. Also something I have noticed in US GPs is that in the general metagame there are not that many miracles players. There is a widespread of combo decks and grindy midrange decks, but miracles I don't see as much. I know that there will always be experienced miracles players at any big tournament you go to, so that is a matchup you need to prepare for at least for day 2. Where I'm going with this is maybe it is time to run Scherer ANT list (at least in the US) over Togores list. I'm a big fan of Togores list, but I feel like a more consistent goldfish is exactly what storm players want in the US. If we look at storm results in the US, it seems like Scherer is one of the few consistent storm players. Let me know what you guys think about this

I have been running the Sherer list(s) for quite some time now for the exact reasons you mentioned.
The most recent variant (with two Tendrils of Agony, two Chrome Mox, and no Dark Petition) is able to utilize Ad Nauseam very well, giving turn two wins pretty consistently compared to other versions of ANT while preserving its late-game strength. I actually think it's quite well positioned these days...

[Styroxis]

I have been running the Sherer list(s) for quite some time now for the exact reasons you mentioned.
The most recent variant (with two Tendrils of Agony, two Chrome Mox, and no Dark Petition) is able to utilize Ad Nauseam very well, giving turn two wins pretty consistently compared to other versions of ANT while preserving its late-game strength. I actually think it's quite well positioned these days...

Thanks for your input. Yeah I think I am going to try out the list. I think for legacy in the US the metagame is quite different than the rest of the world (it is why I only use SCG deck search instead of MTGTop8). I think Modern was (and still might be) the biggest format in the US and what I have noticed is that a lot of people have taken their modern decks and made them into legacy decks. Miracles is a much harder deck to build rather than a stoneblade deck from a modern control deck. D&T comes out of hatebears and its quite popular now, etc.

I really like Togore's list and overall it might be better than Scherer with more diverse metagame, but I just don't think it is where US players want to be.

[Ronald Deuce]

Thanks for the input re: Flusterstorm, everybody!

Regarding the debate over whether double-PiF or double-Petition/double-Tendrils is better: having played both double-Petition and double-PiF lists, I can say that Petitions are definitely faster, but that they're weaker to countermagic and they don't go well with Ad Nauseam. I haven't tried Moxen-and-double-Tendrils, though.

[nevilshute]

Back on storm for a bit https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4AejkiELXsVJV4zwezL32Xw

:smile:

[JamieW89]

Back on storm for a bit https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4AejkiELXsVJV4zwezL32Xw

:smile:

Sweet, always like watching your vids! In the first round I noticed that you keep a lot more Ponders than I would (would have shipped it g1, also the 1st one g2, probably kept the 2nd g2). Might also ship the land,discard,ponder in m3g2. Wonder if I shuffle too much, you keep too much, or neither/both :p.

The comboing is good as always (and some typical close ANT conclusions). One remark is that in m3g2 I would start by tapping Sea rather than Badlands to keep a red source (since your volc is gone), which may at some point be relevant and there isn't really a downside. I'd also take the force over the daze. If you hit any non-toa spell you still beat daze (you lead with Cabal Rit, if they counter it you're home, otherwise you follow with the spell and win. For PiF to work you'd need the Badlands untapped though). But that way you just get free shot of them making a mistake if your brainstorm somehow fails. And as demonstrated elsewhere in the vids, they usually do.

Have you ever tried Flusterstorm versus Elves postboard, I'm not sure if I like it, but you don't mention it at all? And what about Decay versus Shardless, seems okay to remove a deathrite/goyf to buy time, a hatepiece like cage/null rod/meddling mage, or maybe even a Liliana in a pinch. Versus Grixis Delver Carpet seems less than ideal (used to board it a lot too, but didn't really like it), I do like the 2nd Tendrils, 1 or 2 Decays as well as 1-2 Top.

Haven't watched the last 2 matches yet, I'm sure they'll be good too.

[Miscanthus]

Back on storm for a bit https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4AejkiELXsVJV4zwezL32Xw

:smile:

Tough break on that last match against B/r Reanimator.
In your defense though, he had a couple very good hands. Game 1, turn one Sire of Insanity on the play.
Game 2, a protected turn one combo capable of winning through just about anything short of Leyline of the Void.

I am curious though, what is your logic behind siding in Sensei's Divining Top in this matchup? I had thought this card was best in longer, grindier matchups (aka: Miracles, attrition-based decks like Jund, etc.) where it can be used to its fullest advantage, rather than vs. turn one combo decks. Am I missing something?

[Dr_D]

I am curious though, what is your logic behind siding in Sensei's Divining Top in this matchup? I had thought this card was best in longer, grindier matchups (aka: Miracles, attrition-based decks like Jund, etc.) where it can be used to its fullest advantage, rather than vs. turn one combo decks. Am I missing something?

Imo a good reason for boarding it in is if you and your opponent have both ripped each other's hands apart and you're both trying to draw action. Top will put you infinitely ahead in this situation. I've had this come up in games vs the mirror and the player with top generally is way ahead after the initial discard onslaught.

[Miscanthus]

Imo a good reason for boarding it in is if you and your opponent have both ripped each other's hands apart and you're both trying to draw action. Top will put you infinitely ahead in this situation. I've had this come up in games vs the mirror and the player with top generally is way ahead after the initial discard onslaught.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[Ronald Deuce]

Have you ever tried Flusterstorm versus Elves postboard, I'm not sure if I like it, but you don't mention it at all? And what about Decay versus Shardless, seems okay to remove a deathrite/goyf to buy time, a hatepiece like cage/null rod/meddling mage, or maybe even a Liliana in a pinch. Versus Grixis Delver Carpet seems less than ideal (used to board it a lot too, but didn't really like it), I do like the 2nd Tendrils, 1 or 2 Decays as well as 1-2 Top.

I've never felt the need for additional disruption against Elves. Feels to me like our discards and maybe a Chain or two are the best tools for dealing with them.

Decay seems fine against Shardless to me, but I think our biggest problem in that matchup is their discards rather than their permanents. Whenever I've lost to Shardless, their board state hasn't much mattered except insofar as it nails shut the coffin.

I really feel unimpressed by Carpet. I want to like it, but I can't remember the last time I got results out of it.

Out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind a second Tendrils against Grix? Just a means to replace Ad Nauseam? That would make sense, though I prefer having AdN to most doubles in our wincons (Past in Flames and Infernal [obv.] being exceptions).

[Togores]

I font like the second toa vs grixis. This makes that you have it easier to draw it and they therapy it + surgical. Also while they shredd your hand making a letal natural tendrills is also usualy games where you would win anyways.

Also i kind of like fluster vs elves. I side usualy 2 echoing 3 ad 2 fluster. And beat them usualy. Thay wat to beat us are like a fast natural or glimpse (where fluster shines), lot of discard (where fluster is good) and getting us to like 12 life with drs (where the removal is good).



Also I always sb 3 decays vs shardless. If you kill a shaman or fast goyf. You usualy just win by pif up your grave. Nowadays its more of a legit reason to sb in decay because of leovold. And I would think about bringing all 4 in.

[nevilshute]

I've continued to be happy with 2 tendrils vs grixis. A lot of the time they probe, fetch and force their way down to 12-14 life total territory. Maybe I don't respect surgical as much as the next guy does.

[Sloshthedark]

I've continued to be happy with 2 tendrils vs grixis. A lot of the time they probe, fetch and force their way down to 12-14 life total territory. Maybe I don't respect surgical as much as the next guy does.

the same here

[Ancestral]

I font like the second toa vs grixis. This makes that you have it easier to draw it and they therapy it + surgical. Also while they shredd your hand making a letal natural tendrills is also usualy games where you would win anyways.

Also i kind of like fluster vs elves. I side usualy 2 echoing 3 ad 2 fluster. And beat them usualy. Thay wat to beat us are like a fast natural or glimpse (where fluster shines), lot of discard (where fluster is good) and getting us to like 12 life with drs (where the removal is good).



Also I always sb 3 decays vs shardless. If you kill a shaman or fast goyf. You usualy just win by pif up your grave. Nowadays its more of a legit reason to sb in decay because of leovold. And I would think about bringing all 4 in.

about the shardless part, since it´s reasonable to bring in 4x decays, wich cards do you take out ?

[Ronald Deuce]

Back on storm for a bit https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4AejkiELXsVJV4zwezL32Xw

:smile:

Hey, Nevilshute!

Tough breaks on those last two matchups. I feel like Dredge is usually a bit of a toss-up; we're a bit faster, but Cabal Therapy is real, so matches have tended to devolve into one person's discarding the other into oblivion two times out of three. I've been considering bringing in a Surgical or two next time I get to play a big tournament, primarily to fight Reanimator, but I'm wondering whether it's worth it against Dredge. In my experience (as a Dredge player, too), it's only good if it comes down early or in multiples. What do you (and others) think?

How did you feel about maindeck Empty? I love the card, but I use it pretty rarely, which is why I don't have it in the main.

Interesting to see you left Grim Tutor at home. Did you miss it? I've been practicing on 4-tutor lists lately, and—much as this may clash with a lot of what I've said earlier in the thread—I haven't found myself missing Dark Petition all that often. An extra tutor would be nice, but both Grim and Petition are really painful with Ad Nauseam.

Speaking of, Ad Nauseam is a cruel mistress. I think it's a stellar card, but it does shoot us in the foot sometimes. I've found myself more reluctant of late to jam it off of multiple LEDs because that can put us in a dangerous spot with tutors.

Anyone done any testing with Fatal Push yet? Preliminary opinions? I'm interested in trying it, but I don't know that I'll need it if I've got two Chains; considering cutting back my D&T board and just mixing up my deck choices so that people don't peg me as the Storm guy so much.

[thefringthing]

If we're bringing in Decays for Miracles, Death & Taxes, BUG, Eldrazi, Burn, etc. we surely should be playing them maindeck.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Against many decks you only want them after sideboarding though. (Also, I did that a while back and it wasn't great. I don't think it's possible to make reasonable cuts to include Decay without falling short on some other front. Further, Daze does a similar thing while more widely applicable. Not saying maindeck Daze is the way to go, but I would certainly run them over Decay when it comes to the maindeck.)

[Togores]

about the shardless part, since it´s reasonable to bring in 4x decays, wich cards do you take out ?

Preordain
Pif
2 cabal ritual
And another card idk yet. Because I also want to sb in the sb top.

[m0ller]

Hello all stormers!


Regarding the BR reanimated matchup and decks with main deck chalice I board 3 dazes and have had very positive results on modo (not yet tested it a lot in paper). Though, this is on an experimentally level i feel it has different angle to attack those decks. Hence, even burn can't wait another turn to jam eidolon.

Normally I am on grinding station (2 pif, 2 toa, 2 top, 1 Dark p, 1 etw) due to my dislike of ad naseuam main board. My sideboard support AN very well followed with two chrome mox if I want to shift gear.

/m0ller

[Sloshthedark]

If we're bringing in Decays for Miracles, Death & Taxes, BUG, Eldrazi, Burn, etc. we surely should be playing them maindeck.

I do, there are 4ppl on burg w Leovold in 12-16ppl in my lgs, not enough games to evaluate yet, really hate to have only 1 R source though

[CabalTherapy]

Hello all stormers!


Regarding the BR reanimated matchup and decks with main deck chalice I board 3 dazes and have had very positive results on modo (not yet tested it a lot in paper). Though, this is on an experimentally level i feel it has different angle to attack those decks. Hence, even burn can't wait another turn to jam eidolon.

Normally I am on grinding station (2 pif, 2 toa, 2 top, 1 Dark p, 1 etw) due to my dislike of ad naseuam main board. My sideboard support AN very well followed with two chrome mox if I want to shift gear.

/m0ller

I have tested 3 main Dazes in a local. It was horrible. Sample size was obviously way too small but it felt bad and I missed the business spells I had to cut for them. Maybe it was also because for the first time I left the house without Grim
Tutor. I have played Dazes in the board a few times and liked them though. It's definitely an option there.

If BR Reanimator will be even bigger we can run some real graveyard hate to fight this MU. I can definitely see myself going up with hate to accompany my lonely Extirpate at the moment.

Ah, and regarding Leovold, I don't feel like playing AD main since cutting on business or discard spells may put us in awkward spots with Leovold in play, Decay in hand, but no real action for the next turn(s). If I am unable to cantrip, I want to have the business already in hand before this junky boy enters the arena.

[Jeff]

I've lost multiple games to Leovold so far with the entire combo in hand but an inability to get hellbent because of a Brainstorm in hand. It sucks. I don't have the answer yet though. I think it probably has something to do with racing him, like you say.

[Miscanthus]

I've lost multiple games to Leovold so far with the entire combo in hand but an inability to get hellbent because of a Brainstorm in hand. It sucks. I don't have the answer yet though. I think it probably has something to do with racing him, like you say.

In a situation like this, couldn't you simply cast your rituals, etc. then Infernal Tutor...then while holding priority cast brainstorm with tutor on the stack (skipping the draws because of Leovold but not the discard) and gaining hellbent by discarding whatever lands etc. stuck in your hand to the top of your library?

[Jeff]

In a situation like this, couldn't you simply cast your rituals, etc. then Infernal Tutor...then while holding priority cast brainstorm with tutor on the stack (skipping the draws because of Leovold but not the discard) and gaining hellbent by discarding whatever lands etc. stuck in your hand to the top of your library?

Uhhhh . . . yes.

I'm an idiot. Or maybe that wasn't possible for some other reason? But honestly I don't remember considering that as an option, so I'm going to assume I just didn't think it through.

[JamieW89]

Won a 78 player event today with Chrome mox, adn, EtW, and 2 Decay main. Decays didnt really show up. Beat Infect, DnT, BR Reanimator, Eldrazi, Shardless, Aluren and Elves (SF Guy scooped after split). Lost to BUG Delver with Leovold. Empty won me a ton of matches, like it always does :p

[Morden]

Won a 78 player event today with Chrome mox, adn, EtW, and 2 Decay main. Decays didnt really show up. Beat Infect, DnT, BR Reanimator, Eldrazi, Shardless, Aluren and Elves (SF Guy scooped after split). Lost to BUG Delver with Leovold. Empty won me a ton of matches, like it always does :p

I'm curious to know what you cut for decays MB.

[m0ller]

I have tested 3 main Dazes in a local. It was horrible. Sample size was obviously way too small but it felt bad and I missed the business spells I had to cut for them. Maybe it was also because for the first time I left the house without Grim
Tutor. I have played Dazes in the board a few times and liked them though. It's definitely an option there.

If BR Reanimator will be even bigger we can run some real graveyard hate to fight this MU. I can definitely see myself going up with hate to accompany my lonely Extirpate at the moment.

Ah, and regarding Leovold, I don't feel like playing AD main since cutting on business or discard spells may put us in awkward spots with Leovold in play, Decay in hand, but no real action for the next turn(s). If I am unable to cantrip, I want to have the business already in hand before this junky boy enters the arena.

Indeed, daze was meant for a sideboard option. I havd been really happy with it there.

[Krimson Viper]

I haven't played against Storm in a long while, but is ANT the version that can be hurt by graveyard hate?

[Morden]

I haven't played against Storm in a long while, but is ANT the version that can be hurt by graveyard hate?

It CAN, but gy hate is not the most annoying hate we can face.

[bjholmes3]

Between Cabal Ritual, Dark Petition, and Past in Flames, ANT certainly utilizes the grave more than most other storm variants, but grave hate is nothing that can't be played around. I'd much rather face a DRS or a RiP than a Thalia.

As a side note, every time I come back to the game Wizards prints another migraine inducing card against storm. Could you just not pls wizzro

[Togores]

They just want to put a anti combo hatebear in each set. So that a mono white deck could control the meta if it gets really combo. That hurts us obviusly.

[CabalTherapy]

They just want to put a anti combo hatebear in each set. So that a mono white deck could control the meta if it gets really combo. That hurts us obviusly.

Well, the best hatebear right now is BUG-coloured. At least its context makes it the best one against Storm. I don't mind the mono W stuff.

Edit for the TES guys: While a good friend let me know that I have been quoted and misunderstood in some fb TES group, let me elaborate on that what I said, since people tend to overlook certain passages. Regarding my argument, I have explicitly
mentioned the importance of contexts. That means, Leovold while worse in stopping combo than Thalia, Cannonist, Teeg, is definitely stronger in its context: BUG decks. Paired with DRS, discard, cspells, he shuts off our chances to do something meaningful
where we still have to deal with other disruption. The mono W stuff although is better for us since we can still goldfish them easy without dealing with 3 angles of disruption but only 1.

Only for my ANT-friends:
With that said, I am having real trouble beating the newer BUG decks that play a tempo styled game but without Delver. I can only speak for myself but I am not satisfied with the answers we have to problematic MUs such as BR Reanimator or BUG, and it's certainly
a decisive factor I decided to skip the eternal weekend in Paris in spring; some rl stuff going on as well at that time (main event being the first day of me not being a student anymore and so on...). I also don't see me winning anything and will wait for summer to strike back.

Edit2 for SW who I know reads here: I am happy to realize the MU against a solid BUG player; I am sure they are worse players coming to Paris with the BUG builds but it's not worth it at the moment. Times change.

[bjholmes3]

Agreed. New BUG is a pain.

[J.Black]

Agreed. New BUG is a pain.

Glad to be a pain :P

I think you have to find some way of racing us.. Not easy when Leovold can come down T2 from a DRS, and we can BS to hide him from Thoughtseize but, I think you have to find a way. Once he hits the field it's been goodnight in all the games i've played.

[Jeff]

Glad to be a pain :P

I think you have to find some way of racing us.. Not easy when Leovold can come down T2 from a DRS, and we can BS to hide him from Thoughtseize but, I think you have to find a way. Once he hits the field it's been goodnight in all the games i've played.

I've beaten him several times, but you just have to already have the combo in place, because you're not putting it together after he comes down.

[bjholmes3]

G1 he's not too much of a big deal on his own unless your hand is just garbage, but G2-3 when he can draw into like a Flusterstorm it's not fun. I'll need to update the OP one of these days for this guy. Wizards, stop printing hate, you're making my job harder :D

[J.Black]

Usually I don't bother disrupting Storm early game but now it's very tempting to daze/force your cantrips if I know I can stick a Leo early.

Maybe Chain of Vapor could be a nice way to play around him?

[Ronald Deuce]

I've not faced the new Leo-faced menace, but looking at the decklists, it looks like they tend to run light on answers to Empty the Warrens. Might not be fast enough, but I was thinking that very light 'boarding (switching a Preordain and maybe Preordain #2 or a Chrome Mox for Empty and a couple of Decays, Chains, or Fatal Push) seemed like the best strategy. Ostensibly, we'd keep our discards to stop countermagic and we'd aim for a faster combo. Anyone had success with that type of strategy? Do tokens stand a chance of breaking through, or is it just not enough?

For people who've had some experience with the matchup, how difficult is it compared to Miracles or Chalices?

[Spam]

I've not faced the new Leo-faced menace, but looking at the decklists, it looks like they tend to run light on answers to Empty the Warrens. Might not be fast enough, but I was thinking that very light 'boarding (switching a Preordain and maybe Preordain #2 or a Chrome Mox for Empty and a couple of Decays, Chains, or Fatal Push) seemed like the best strategy. Ostensibly, we'd keep our discards to stop countermagic and we'd aim for a faster combo. Anyone had success with that type of strategy? Do tokens stand a chance of breaking through, or is it just not enough?

For people who've had some experience with the matchup, how difficult is it compared to Miracles or Chalices?
Goblins are always good, but we're talking about turn 1/2 combo, which is nothing new for us. On where we stand against it, well, It's not really comparable with chalice or balance. If they run the blue trap they can just leave it there and wait for the tendrills and then draw 10 cards, terrible proposition for us.

[acidhead]

Until now I was lucky against leovold and could always win against it. But he's certainly a pain after boarding as CT explained. I think I'll test playing Thoughtseize in the Duress slots as I go off with Ad Nauseam in maybe 1 or 2 games out of 10. Has somebody already experience with it?

[Morden]

the massive presence of hate also in G1 made me swap a duress for a thoughtseize months ago......and now with Leo I find another reason to do it. It's true that G1 Leo can't dig for a fluster or mindbreak trap, but it's also true that "turn 1 fetch DTS, turn 2 leo" being on the draw kills all your cantrips, and if you don't have the right cards already in hand it's tough.
Goblins are good, moxes aren't imho. I think mox is good against decks that have ONLY permanent hate: having card disadvantage and being faster doens't help against counters (and free counters like Fow or trap) and hymn/duress/thoughtseize.

[Lemnear]

Is there anything holding you from playing a MB EtW for the case of seeing the opponent dropping a Leovold?

[CabalTherapy]

Quoting Sloshy from a conversation here: "There has never been a better time to play EtW main."

[Morden]

I've always be a fan of empty MD, for several reasons:

1) few decks have an answer to an horde of goblins: miracle (terminus) / D&T (batterskull)
--1a) terminus: not a big deal, ETW is not our main wincon, it's ok to have 1 dead card when our opponent has 8 of them (4 stp + 4 terminus). The problem with miracle is another card...............
--1b) batterskull: can be difficult racing with a lifelink/vigilance creature on board, but with discard spells it's easy to get rid of batterskull, it's a slow set up for them.

2) also against decks where Etw should be good, I found difficulties G2. Grixis, for example. They use to board Electrickery or some other annoying cards. Not to mention toxic deludge, pernicious deed and other black/green removals......they are slow for sure, but it's also true that goblins don't kill in one turn.

3) having EtW MD frees a precious slot in the SB.

4) it works like a charm in conjuction with chrome mox and nauseam (tes style). Nauseam is already used by most of us, moxes maybe not.... it depends how fast you want to be, but etw can really win some games by itself. A good deal, for just 1 slot.

5) I have a foil russian copy of etw, I HAVE to play it MD, it's such a pain to see it ignored in the SB :laugh:

[Sloshthedark]

Quoting Sloshy from a conversation here: "There has never been a better time to play EtW main."
Did I say that? well why not, I started to paly EtW short after TES guys MDed it and haven't dropped it since... I also said that if there ever was a bad time to paly Storm it's now imo...


If we're bringing in Decays for Miracles, Death & Taxes, BUG, Eldrazi, Burn, etc. we surely should be playing them maindeck.

if anyone interested about 2x MD AD - short report from GP Prague sidevents for combined record of 13-2-1

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tropical Island

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony


61

SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Karakas
3 Dark Confidant
1 Pyroblast
2 Massacre


+Burn 2-0
Grixis delver 2-0
S+T 2-0
Wg D+T - ID to catch next sideevent

BURG 2-0
Manaless Dredge 2-0
-S+T 0-2 ... mull to 6&5 no landers, misplay G1
D+T 2-0

+D+T 2-1
+UBG w Leo 2-1
Dredge 2-0
+Aluren 2-0

(-Karakas, -3Confidant, +Tormod's Crypt, +Flusterstorm, +2Culling Scales)
-Ant 2-1
+BURG 2-0
S+T 2-0
Eldrazi 0-2 ... lost dieroll, CotV1, G2 deck did not deliver till T4 against a Leyline

field was soft, AD killed some DRS and a Thalia, would be more useful but I accidentaly won before getting relevant (+/-), Confidant never showed up, Karakas was good ..., I'll continue to play it for now...

[Pelikanudo]

...

well i needed to ask this...

61 cards why? do you think it is better to have less chances to drawing LED, IT and D.R. than cutting 1 card?

I ask this because i am also evaluating a 61 TES decklist...

EDIT: I cant believe it, my TES neighbours think it is moment to leave EtW from base.... i disagree completely and now i see you Slosh saying backwards related to your build...

[Sloshthedark]

well i needed to ask this...

61 cards why? do you think it is better to have less chances to drawing LED, IT and D.R. than cutting 1 card?

I ask this because i am also evaluating a 61 TES decklist...

EDIT: I cant believe it, my TES neighbours think it is moment to leave EtW from base.... i disagree completely and now i see you Slosh saying backwards related to your build...

the question to answer is - is lower % of drawing other cards worth the % of drawing the 61st or is the sum of 61 more powerful overall towards what you expect compared to worse deck with better opening hands %? (read if - I cut a ponder will it be better? imo No) for me 61st was initially a 15th land and as my deck isn't really speed oriented I'm willing to sacrifice the % for the difference, the 60card dogma is wrong imo... would I play 61 card in TES? hard to say (but I believe I did)

cutting EtW - I don't understand it either and I don't care since I don't aspire to play TES...

[DoubleFried]

I'm curious to know what you cut for decays MB.

Decklist was posted online.

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Dread of Night
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre

[ScottW]

if anyone interested about 2x MD AD - short report from GP Prague sidevents for combined record of 13-2-1

Main deck AD, 76, and creatures out of the side -- so what...

No Grim Tutor!?!?!?! What is happening???

On a broader point, I'm sure everyone remembers when Miracles particularly was MD Red Blasts during the Dig Through Time period. Not that this is the B&R thread but it feels like something is warping the format.

Cool list as usual Slosh!

[Sloshthedark]

Main deck AD, 76, and creatures out of the side -- so what...

No Grim Tutor!?!?!?! What is happening???

On a broader point, I'm sure everyone remembers when Miracles particularly was MD Red Blasts during the Dig Through Time period. Not that this is the B&R thread but it feels like something is warping the format.

Cool list as usual Slosh!

It's a plan against a BURG Leovold tempo/midrange locals play a lot (the AD+Confidant), the Confidant is a bit schizophrenic in other MUs (I don't board it in otherwise really), I don't like it much ... Grim tutor and 7th discard were the most cuttable cards (1AD not enough for testing purposes), not excited about it as it make deck worse in theory, in practice it did not matter much, losing the 2nd red (and 16th land) and general color management is hard, I play the setup for +/- 2 weeks...

Storm used to play answers with Mystical tutor aswell (logicaly), as development of the game goes looks like it's only a matter of time when it's gonna be a right choice again, I'm trying to figure out whether it's the time... it doesn't look/feel right but it's not about pride and elegance, took years to ppl to play 2 PIF, EtW had/have strong (pr)oponents even now... if it works it works, if it doesn't well it doesn't...

Thanks, just a simple change...

[Jeff]

What are everyone's current favorite board plans for all the BUG Delver decks we're seeing lately? I've faced Stifle, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana, Mongoose, Confidant, and every combination of them, with no real consensus on the best way to handle it. Traditionally I've always liked Carpet of Flowers and the Empty the Warrens for this matchup, but Carpet is an incredible liability with Leovold running around, and it feels like every one of these is boarding in multiple Golgari Charms or Marsh Casualties to handle Empty.

I'm 4-5 over my last 9 matches against it, which is about where I'd expect to be considering I think it's a slightly below average matchup for us, but I'm open to ideas for how to improve it. I tried Confidant and Xantid Swarm and didn't love either of them (especially Confidant). I know years ago I used to play Top for fighting Hymn, not sure if it's time to try that again or not. It doesn't feel high impact enough given how quickly these games are going though.

So yeah. What're y'all doing, and is it working?

[Sloshthedark]

What are everyone's current favorite board plans for all the BUG Delver decks we're seeing lately? I've faced Stifle, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana, Mongoose, Confidant, and every combination of them, with no real consensus on the best way to handle it. Traditionally I've always liked Carpet of Flowers and the Empty the Warrens for this matchup, but Carpet is an incredible liability with Leovold running around, and it feels like every one of these is boarding in multiple Golgari Charms or Marsh Casualties to handle Empty.

I'm 4-5 over my last 9 matches against it, which is about where I'd expect to be considering I think it's a slightly below average matchup for us, but I'm open to ideas for how to improve it. I tried Confidant and Xantid Swarm and didn't love either of them (especially Confidant). I know years ago I used to play Top for fighting Hymn, not sure if it's time to try that again or not. It doesn't feel high impact enough given how quickly these games are going though.

So yeah. What're y'all doing, and is it working?

there is no great plan but I'd do SDT (works well vs Leovold), AD, ETW, in case of Liliana/Hymn AdN, in case of Stifle/no hymn multiple ToA instead

[cryptactical]

Hi,

I'm new to this site, and I'm not very sure if you can do this here, but I'd like to ask several questions regarding my deck list.

Deck List:

4x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Dark Petition
1x Empty the Warrens

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Abrupt Decay

4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x Island

Sideboard:

2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Dread of Night
2x Tendrils of Agony
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Massacre
1x Krosan Grip


Questions:
1. Should there always be 2 Past in Flames in the 75? If so, why?
2. Are 6 discard spells enough or do I need the 7th?
3. What do you think of the Krosan Grip? Is it too much considering the 4 decay?
4. What about the Empty the Warrens in the Mainboard?

Thank you.

[HansoRaptor]

Hi,
Questions:
1. Should there always be 2 Past in Flames in the 75? If so, why?
2. Are 6 discard spells enough or do I need the 7th?
3. What do you think of the Krosan Grip? Is it too much considering the 4 decay?
4. What about the Empty the Warrens in the Mainboard?

Thank you.

1. It doesn't have to, but I would recommend doing so. It is good in grindier matchups and really nice against Miracles or basically any counter heavy deck.
2. 6 is the typical number so that is normally more than enough. I sometimes prefer to play more but most lists play 6 so it is probably fine.
3. No it is not. It has split second that reason alone makes it a good sideboard card. You can't really kill a Sensei's Divining Top with Decay.
4. Many people love it, I don't. It is especially good against Delver decks, but it also makes your Ad Nauseam worse, so it really depends on your meta and your personal preference. I think having this in the sideboard is more than enough.

[Jeff]

Questions:
1. Should there always be 2 Past in Flames in the 75? If so, why?
2. Are 6 discard spells enough or do I need the 7th?
3. What do you think of the Krosan Grip? Is it too much considering the 4 decay?
4. What about the Empty the Warrens in the Mainboard?

Thank you.

1. No, 1 is just fine. 2 is a good at solving certain problems, but you can absolutely be fine with 1. In the current online metagame, I actually prefer 1, because Surgical Extraction is at an all time high. It's certainly something you can play around, but relying on the graveyard for your win isn't exactly safe.
2. I prefer the 7th, but this is pretty debatable. In most cases I'd rather draw too many discard spells than not enough, though obviously that's not always true. HansoRaptor says 6 is typical, I'm surprised to hear that because I've always thought 7 was typical. It's been a few years since I really analyzed what everyone else is doing, it's possible I'm out of date here.
3. I'm actually playing 3 decay 1 grip. Multiple miracles pilots have surgical'd decay against me, and having an out to CBalance after that can be nice. I also find myself destroying divining tops on a not-irregular basis.
4. I don't like it. It's not good enough in enough matchups. I'm definitely in the minority here though. I like having it available to bring it, but honestly I haven't found it winning all that many games for me lately either. BUG is always where I wanted it the most and they're able to stack up deathrites in front of it and make it very difficult to get enough damage through to the extent that it ends up not winning the game even if you can get 12 or 14 goblins sometimes.

[cryptactical]

Hi again,

Thanks for replying Jeff and HansoRaptor.

So basically, it really depends on the meta I'm currently playing in then? My current environment has a lot of board hate for ANT such as DnT, Mavericks, Chalice decks, and Stoneblades. That's why I have Empty on my mainboard (It helped me a lot against them, but do you think an extra tutor would be better?) And the 3 Tendrils inside the 75 should be okay yea?

[Ronald Deuce]

Hi again,

Thanks for replying Jeff and HansoRaptor.

So basically, it really depends on the meta I'm currently playing in then? My current environment has a lot of board hate for ANT such as DnT, Mavericks, Chalice decks, and Stoneblades. That's why I have Empty on my mainboard (It helped me a lot against them, but do you think an extra tutor would be better?) And the 3 Tendrils inside the 75 should be okay yea?

Hi, Cryptactical!

My two cents:
—Double-Past in Flames is excellent against Stoneblade and other countermagic-heavy decks. I would recommend double-PiF over another Tutor. It's worth pointing out that I find this to be a slower configuration if you don't hit god-hands, but that isn't a problem unless you're fighting Turn-One Fun, Chalices, or hatebears.
—Empty the Warrens bosses Mav and D&T hard because you can storm for 10-14 goblins in the first two turns and invalidate their whole gameplan. Also, they need to use cards that are bad against Tendrils in order to fight goblins (Stoneforge/Batterskull). If they've kept good anti-Storm hands, they probably haven't kept good anti-aggro hands. If you're facing a lot of decks like that, it's worth it to run an Empty in the main, but if you aren't facing those decks, I wouldn't recommend it.
—I haven't been having problems on only four tutors. I feel like maybe having another business card would be good (I'm on eight; 4x Infernal, 1x AdN and Tendrils, 2x PiF), but I generally feel like slot 60 is a big tossup between Chrome Mox, extra business, and land #15.
—I'm seriously considering bringing in a seventh discard, but I had oodles of problems with consistency when I had seven in the deck. I'd be cantripping hard for business/mana only to find a third discard quite often. I'm probably going to put a seventh in the sideboard, but I don't think seven maindeck discards are worth it unless you need extra anti-counterspell cards (e.g., if you run double Dark Petition).
—I cut Krosan a long time ago because I've never seen a Meddling Mage and I don't want to throw nine sideboard cards at Miracles. [EDIT: If a Miracles guy has a Top on the board and he/she fetches, fire Decay at the Top.] Haven't played the matchup in quite a while, but it feels like we're pretty much killing ourselves if we have to do that much restructuring. I'd be interested to hear from people with more experience in the matchup, especially against Miracles decks running Monastery Mentor.
—Outside the Miracles matchup, I never bring in extra Tendrils except—maybe—against Burn.

[cryptactical]

Hi, Cryptactical!

My two cents:
—Double-Past in Flames is excellent against Stoneblade and other countermagic-heavy decks. I would recommend double-PiF over another Tutor. It's worth pointing out that I find this to be a slower configuration if you don't hit god-hands, but that isn't a problem unless you're fighting Turn-One Fun, Chalices, or hatebears.
—Empty the Warrens bosses Mav and D&T hard because you can storm for 10-14 goblins in the first two turns and invalidate their whole gameplan. Also, they need to use cards that are bad against Tendrils in order to fight goblins (Stoneforge/Batterskull). If they've kept good anti-Storm hands, they probably haven't kept good anti-aggro hands. If you're facing a lot of decks like that, it's worth it to run an Empty in the main, but if you aren't facing those decks, I wouldn't recommend it.
—I haven't been having problems on only four tutors. I feel like maybe having another business card would be good (I'm on eight; 4x Infernal, 1x AdN and Tendrils, 2x PiF), but I generally feel like slot 60 is a big tossup between Chrome Mox, extra business, and land #15.
—I'm seriously considering bringing in a seventh discard, but I had oodles of problems with consistency when I had seven in the deck. I'd be cantripping hard for business/mana only to find a third discard quite often. I'm probably going to put a seventh in the sideboard, but I don't think seven maindeck discards are worth it unless you need extra anti-counterspell cards (e.g., if you run double Dark Petition).
—I cut Krosan a long time ago because I've never seen a Meddling Mage and I don't want to throw nine sideboard cards at Miracles. [EDIT: If a Miracles guy has a Top on the board and he/she fetches, fire Decay at the Top.] Haven't played the matchup in quite a while, but it feels like we're pretty much killing ourselves if we have to do that much restructuring. I'd be interested to hear from people with more experience in the matchup, especially against Miracles decks running Monastery Mentor.
—Outside the Miracles matchup, I never bring in extra Tendrils except—maybe—against Burn.

Thanks a lot Ronald!

Well, The second PiF certainly does help a lot. It helps in reducing my chance of screwing up the game. But doesn't that make you more graveyard reliant? Or not?

I'll consider testing the double PiF over the extra tutor, since PiF gives you better outs and bigger business I guess.

And yes, the seventh discard is the one thing I can't really decide since I currently main one Abrupt Decay. So, instead of the Krosan Grip what do you suggest I bring? I'm considering either a Xanthid Swarm or a City of Solitude. What do you think?

[Tulkas]

hey guys, i m thinking to build ant but my meta has eldrazi stompy, DnT/maverick, miracles,pox, dredge and merfolk. do you think it's a meta too unfavorable?

[CabalTherapy]

Hi,

I'm new to this site, and I'm not very sure if you can do this here, but I'd like to ask several questions regarding my deck list.


Looks like you've copied one of those online lists, where you are more likely to play against BR Reanimator (overload on grave hate SB); at least that's how I see it.
I don't think Decay main will establish itself as a useful tool. Guys above already answered your questions.

[cryptactical]

Looks like you've copied one of those online lists, where you are more likely to play against BR Reanimator (overload on grave hate SB); at least that's how I see it.
I don't think Decay main will establish itself as a useful tool. Guys above already answered your questions.

I did, but I didn't know whose list I was copying to be honest. I was told to try the list by my friend.

Well, certainly yes because I was somewhat scared of losing against Reanimator and Dredge. I'm currently thinking of cutting 1-2 of them for a Xanthid swarm, but not entirely sure yet. What do you think CabalTherapy? (Thanks for replying btw)



hey guys, i m thinking to build ant but my meta has eldrazi stompy, DnT/maverick, miracles,pox, dredge and merfolk. do you think it's a meta too unfavorable?

Hello Tulkas,

I don't think it's going to be that bad. I've tested against all of those decks except for Merfolk and Pox, I have no idea how's the match up going to be. For Eldrazi, unless they have their chalice down on the first turn every game the match up is still winnable. For DnT/Maverick, although they might have much more mainboard hate with the recent printing of Sanctum Prelate, this match up has mostly been favourable to me(I might be wrong though). As for Miracles, yes this match up is hard, but I don't usually lose a first game against them I guess? It's not as bad as you think for the first game in my opinion, but it doesn't really get any better post board. And Dredge, I don't think there's going to be any problem( as long as they don't kill you on their first turn that is). The plan is to just go off as fast as possible, or at least that's what I do.

[Jeff]

For Eldrazi, unless they have their chalice down on the first turn every game the match up is still winnable.

This hasn't been my experience. Post board they've got 8 2 drop hate cards and they can just mull to them. That matchup just feels atrociuos.

[CabalTherapy]

I did, but I didn't know whose list I was copying to be honest. I was told to try the list by my friend.

Well, certainly yes because I was somewhat scared of losing against Reanimator and Dredge. I'm currently thinking of cutting 1-2 of them for a Xanthid swarm, but not entirely sure yet. What do you think CabalTherapy? (Thanks for replying btw)



Which is totally fine.
I like to play as many cards that deal splash damage to other decks. Thus, I play Extirpate for example which is useful against all combo decks and Miracles. Crypt's applications are rather limited.
Swarm is ok in a certain meta but not the best choice + it depends on your SB strategy against the decks Swarm is playable against.

[Alakhai84]

I've seen that a lot of decklist are doing 5-0 on mtgo running 2x Dark Petition and Ad Nauseam. Don't you guys think that it's a bit risky playing Ad Nauseam with all these cards with cmc > 4? I've never liked Dark Petition, I think that 4 tutor effect is enough.

[cryptactical]

Which is totally fine.
I like to play as many cards that deal splash damage to other decks. Thus, I play Extirpate for example which is useful against all combo decks and Miracles. Crypt's applications are rather limited.
Swarm is ok in a certain meta but not the best choice + it depends on your SB strategy against the decks Swarm is playable against.


Hmm, Extirpate might be better I suppose. I'll try getting a copy of that.

As for Swarm, any better similar cards that you know of? What do you think about City of Solitude?

Oh, can I have a copy of your full list if possible? Thanks.


I've seen that a lot of decklist are doing 5-0 on mtgo running 2x Dark Petition and Ad Nauseam. Don't you guys think that it's a bit risky playing Ad Nauseam with all these cards with cmc > 4? I've never liked Dark Petition, I think that 4 tutor effect is enough.

Well, I played 2 Petitions in my previous list. It gives you more chances of going off I suppose? I mean, I did a nice 5-1 with that list. On the other hand, there was a game where I revealed 2 Petitions of the Ad Nauseam and lost instantly, so I cut one Petition and run Empty in the main instead.

[Ronald Deuce]

I've seen that a lot of decklist are doing 5-0 on mtgo running 2x Dark Petition and Ad Nauseam. Don't you guys think that it's a bit risky playing Ad Nauseam with all these cards with cmc > 4? I've never liked Dark Petition, I think that 4 tutor effect is enough.

I used to run double-Petition with Ad Nauseam. I thought it was fine in non-countermagic contexts, but that the Petitions weren't great against blue decks. For a while, I kept the same amount of business but switched a Petition for a second Past in Flames, and there's a chance I'll go back to that configuration.

You're right, though; Ad Nauseam is really risky with builds like that. I've found that it rarely causes me problems with only double-PiF and a Tendrils as my other ≥4-drops. With that said, I occasionally find myself having problems with only four tutors, and the deck plays more slowly.

I've got a question about the manabase. I've been considering going back to an extra business card (Empty the Warrens) in the maindeck, but one thing that's made me reluctant to do that is that it's a red card. Past in Flames is fine because it takes time to set it up, and we usually won't be hurting for red when we use it. But Empty needs to come down right away, and I feel like it's a bit of a tall order without LED and/or Petal. I'm wondering whether anyone's running a Badlands or a second Volcanic these days.

[CabalTherapy]

Hmm, Extirpate might be better I suppose. I'll try getting a copy of that.

As for Swarm, any better similar cards that you know of? What do you think about City of Solitude?

Oh, can I have a copy of your full list if possible? Thanks.


Swarm traditionally comes in against SnT based decks, Reanimator, and Miracles in some cases; I liked it as well against Canadian since they board out their removal and you can gamble to have a turn against their huge stack interaction lineup. There aren't any cards that you can change 1 to 1 with Swarm with since its application differs from other options such as Flusterstorm, Extirpate, Pyroblast, or simply said the strategy you are playing against a specific MU. I have tested City of Solitude and there were times where I liked to have it as a 1off in my SB (played one at GP Lille 2015 and so on) but at the moment it feels too clunky and unnecessary to have a cc3 enchantment that is first of all card disadvantage and then does little when CB is still active. It also relates to my plan against Miracles, which basically is doing nothing until the last big turn; sometimes it pays off, sometimes not. (It's always boring though.)

I wouldn't recommend playing my list actually. It's based on my preferences and playstyle and is built to incorporate Grim Tutor which cannot be exchanged with another card without rebuilding the deck a bit.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Past in Flames
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
8 Fetch

My SB is subject to major changes when I play locals. At the moment, I think I have something like that:
3 Abript Decay (set in stone)
1 Krosan Grip (99% a 1off)
1 Flusterstorm (almost always)
1 Pyroblast (when I expect Miracles)
1 Extirpate (almost always)
1 Sensei's Divining Top (100% 1off)
2 Tendrils of Agony (100% atm)
1 Ancient Grudge (sometimes not)
1 Bayou (always)
1 Chain of Vapor (most likely is a real removal like Massacre or Pyroclasm)
1 Thoughtseize (7th discard spell, might be something else)
1 Hyrkul's Recall (only for some locals)

[cryptactical]

I used to run double-Petition with Ad Nauseam. I thought it was fine in non-countermagic contexts, but that the Petitions weren't great against blue decks. For a while, I kept the same amount of business but switched a Petition for a second Past in Flames, and there's a chance I'll go back to that configuration.

You're right, though; Ad Nauseam is really risky with builds like that. I've found that it rarely causes me problems with only double-PiF and a Tendrils as my other ≥4-drops. With that said, I occasionally find myself having problems with only four tutors, and the deck plays more slowly.

I've got a question about the manabase. I've been considering going back to an extra business card (Empty the Warrens) in the maindeck, but one thing that's made me reluctant to do that is that it's a red card. Past in Flames is fine because it takes time to set it up, and we usually won't be hurting for red when we use it. But Empty needs to come down right away, and I feel like it's a bit of a tall order without LED and/or Petal. I'm wondering whether anyone's running a Badlands or a second Volcanic these days.

I don't think there's a need to further change the mana base? Since we have 4 Petals to make up the colour difference. The addition of another red card won't be too bad because going off with Empty the Warrens requires less mana(usually 6-7 spells are enough). At least that's what I've been experiencing.



Swarm traditionally comes in against SnT based decks, Reanimator, and Miracles in some cases; I liked it as well against Canadian since they board out their removal and you can gamble to have a turn against their huge stack interaction lineup. There aren't any cards that you can change 1 to 1 with Swarm with since its application differs from other options such as Flusterstorm, Extirpate, Pyroblast, or simply said the strategy you are playing against a specific MU. I have tested City of Solitude and there were times where I liked to have it as a 1off in my SB (played one at GP Lille 2015 and so on) but at the moment it feels too clunky and unnecessary to have a cc3 enchantment that is first of all card disadvantage and then does little when CB is still active. It also relates to my plan against Miracles, which basically is doing nothing until the last big turn; sometimes it pays off, sometimes not. (It's always boring though.)

I wouldn't recommend playing my list actually. It's based on my preferences and playstyle and is built to incorporate Grim Tutor which cannot be exchanged with another card without rebuilding the deck a bit.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Past in Flames
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
8 Fetch

My SB is subject to major changes when I play locals. At the moment, I think I have something like that:
3 Abript Decay (set in stone)
1 Krosan Grip (99% a 1off)
1 Flusterstorm (almost always)
1 Pyroblast (when I expect Miracles)
1 Extirpate (almost always)
1 Sensei's Divining Top (100% 1off)
2 Tendrils of Agony (100% atm)
1 Ancient Grudge (sometimes not)
1 Bayou (always)
1 Chain of Vapor (most likely is a real removal like Massacre or Pyroclasm)
1 Thoughtseize (7th discard spell, might be something else)
1 Hyrkul's Recall (only for some locals)

Thanks for the list! :smile: (And it's supposed to be Hurkyl's I think :laugh:)

The list looks fine and solid in my opinion. I think I might be interested to test this list for the upcoming tournament(without the Grim tutor though).

[ScottW]

The list looks fine and solid in my opinion. I think I might be interested to test this list for the upcoming tournament(without the Grim tutor though).

I'd consider what CabalTherapy wrote about the Grim Tutor. I play a similar list (AdN in the SB) and would recommend giving yourself more time to become familiar with the play style before expecting results.

[Spam]

I'd consider what CabalTherapy wrote about the Grim Tutor. I play a similar list (AdN in the SB) and would recommend giving yourself more time to become familiar with the play style before expecting results.
Yup, this deck gives results only after a very long time of practice. Besides, swapping Grim for other tutors is always bad. Lists are built to take out the most from their cards and making random changes will do you no good.

[cryptactical]

I'd consider what CabalTherapy wrote about the Grim Tutor. I play a similar list (AdN in the SB) and would recommend giving yourself more time to become familiar with the play style before expecting results.

Guess that's true. I'll stick to the list I usually play then.


Yup, this deck gives results only after a very long time of practice. Besides, swapping Grim for other tutors is always bad. Lists are built to take out the most from their cards and making random changes will do you no good.

Well, I can see why now. I tried to swap the Grim Tutor for a Petition earlier, didn't go well.

Though I really am considering the second PiF in the main.

[Spam]

Guess that's true. I'll stick to the list I usually play then.



Well, I can see why now. I tried to swap the Grim Tutor for a Petition earlier, didn't go well.

Though I really am considering the second PiF in the main.
In my opinion, two PiF main are super strong, would not leave home without.

[Sloshthedark]

I wouldn't call GT crucial but is nice to have for MD EtW build


In my opinion, two PiF main are super strong, would not leave home without.

hasn't changed for me since 2012

[ironclad8690]

http://i.imgur.com/SyPRa9l.png

lololol man this deck is fun, turn oned this poor chap 2 games in a row.

[Morden]

my list is very very similar to the CabalTherapy's one (SB is quite different, but just for meta choices....).
Chrome mox is very good as fifth petal: being a singleton decreases the chance to topdeck it (usually we don't want this), but after a 0-mana nauseam it's easier to restart storming.
2 pif maindeck is fine, but due to nazi meta I have to free some space in the SB, moving EtW to maindeck. Not bad indeed, G1 sometimes empty is better than tendrils, I think actually the meta (in general, not only mine) doesn't have so many counters that require second pif; a fast empty, also a small one with 12-14 goblins, can win G1 before hate comes down.

Grim tutor is 10 times better than petition, I will run it when there'll be a BB version....... for the moment 1 tendrils, 1 empty, 1 pif, 1 nauseam, 4 IT is good.

[fangzie]

I've got a question about the manabase. I've been considering going back to an extra business card (Empty the Warrens) in the maindeck, but one thing that's made me reluctant to do that is that it's a red card. Past in Flames is fine because it takes time to set it up, and we usually won't be hurting for red when we use it. But Empty needs to come down right away, and I feel like it's a bit of a tall order without LED and/or Petal. I'm wondering whether anyone's running a Badlands or a second Volcanic these days.

Honestly, I personally don't believe a second red source is necessary just to support Empty, I feel petal, or even just leaving a fetch uncracked where possible leave you able to support it off just Volc with relative ease. There'll always be fringe scenarios where the second red source is relevant, I just don't think these are common enough. I feel,however, that the biggest difference to be made when running Empty main should be in the business breakdown. I'm starting to think that if you're running Empty main, a list more like Nevilshute's is a better option, ie no mainboard ad nauseam and extra tutors. The main reason being that the last thing you want to do, game one especially, is Ad Nauseam into Empty, just to get delvered or bolted to death

[CabalTherapy]

Honestly, I personally don't believe a second red source is necessary just to support Empty, I feel petal, or even just leaving a fetch uncracked where possible leave you able to support it off just Volc with relative ease. There'll always be fringe scenarios where the second red source is relevant, I just don't think these are common enough. I feel,however, that the biggest difference to be made when running Empty main should be in the business breakdown. I'm starting to think that if you're running Empty main, a list more like Nevilshute's is a better option, ie no mainboard ad nauseam and extra tutors. The main reason being that the last thing you want to do, game one especially, is Ad Nauseam into Empty, just to get delvered or bolted to death

Red sources: It's not that uncommon actually. Having Volcanic, Badlands, and Sea in play is the ultimative Grixis mana base which cannot be destroyed by one Wasteland. It also mirrors the playstyle: I value black higher than blue in a lot of MUs or situations therefore fetching out Badlands as my second land. But yes, it comes handy with EtW main but is by all means not mandatory.
Business: That hasn't to be true. Running one EtW with AdN let's you have the option of creating a lot of guys preboard while still being able to pull of some draws in other games with AdN if necessary; meaning MU = you choose your weapon accordingly. That's why you don't get "delvered" or "bolted to death" because you can simply go for EtW with Tutor in those games (except the games where you fire off AdN from hand of course).

[Jeff]

I recently started playing MTGO in addition to paper magic, and figured I'd use this opportunity to keep better track of my results. Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gAhZtHzO-W9Mqt6144zt9dhJpObzVsz-BMOOfslXjes/edit?usp=sharing) are my results through 100 games (EDIT: I've continued to update this with more data as I keep playing. The stats below are referring to the sheet for 2017-01-25 - 2017-02-11). I had a good start and tapered off recently (lost my last 6 matches, ugh). Still, it's been enjoyable to see what's working and what isn't.

Match W/L: 53-47
Game W/L: 129-115
Game 1 W/L: 62-38
Games 2/3 W/L: 67-77

For matchup data you should really look at the spreadsheet, but some relevant ones

Deck: G1 / G2/3 / Match

Miracles: 6-3 / 8-4 / 6-3
BUG Delver (all flavors): 7-5 / 6-13 / 4-8
Noble BUG: 1-4 / 0-6 / 0-5

For reference, this is my list and sideboard.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition

4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island


Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dark Confidant
2 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Xantid Swarm

----


General takeaways right now: My game 1 percentage is great, my postboard percentage is miserable. After around 50 games they were both positive, but the more I played the worse they got. My match win percentage was over 60% early on but things have gotten worse, and that ties in to facing a lot more Noble BUG and BUG Delver over that period of time. I'm very happy with my miracles matchup, 6-3 seems damn good for the best deck in the format that plays maindeck counterbalance. Couldn't be happier with my sideboard plan there. Unfortunately, with the popularity that Team America and Reid's new deck are having online, I'm finding it difficult to experience continued above-average success against the field. That may just mean it's still not the right time to play this deck, even with BR reanimator forced out because of bugs and Eldrazi on the downswing, but I'd be open to trying some other strategies for beating those decks. Losing carpet of flowers is a pretty big deal, but I'm just not comfortable playing it against bug decks anymore, and Empty the Warrens has been raced more times than I'd like if I can't get it up to like 14 goblins, which is difficult on the low resources they usually let you have.

I kind of want to try something ridiculous, like Abyssal Persecutor or Phyrexian Obliterator or Pack Rat, but nothing is really standing out as a good idea to me right now.

Anywho, figured the data dump might be interesting to some folks.

[Ronald Deuce]

CabalTherapy and Fangzie, thanks for the responses about Badlands!

Incidentally, I'd run a Badlands in the main for a while when I still hadn't procured a Volcanic Island, and for the most part, it worked fine. I'm still not sure I want to make room for an Empty in my maindeck, but I'm beginning to think having a Badlands around might be worth it. I'm mostly wondering whether it'd really do anything a Swamp wouldn't; we'd still need a second (nonland) initial source for a T1, meaning that we'd probably have the means to produce red anyway unless we were using a Chrome Mox. Turn 2 is where things get a bit trickier, because we'd need to play a red land on either T1 or T2 to make goblins without using either Petal or LED (there's always Mox-plus-Past in Flames, but...). So I don't know what feels best, primarily because I don't know what to cut for both Empty and Badlands. But thanks a lot for the feedback!

Fangzie, I'm inclined to agree with CabalTherapy about running both Empty and Ad Nauseam. Sure, it's a risk that you'll flip Empty and take four with no benefit, but the same problem applies if you're running any number of extra tutors (especially Grim). Running more than four 4+ spells is always risky with Ad Nauseam, and that's actually why I cut back to just the Infernals, 2x Past in Flames, and Ad Nauseam. But it's risky regardless of which business cards you flip.

Regarding Grim, I agree that it's a pretty risky card in Ad Nauseam builds. I haven't tested it, and I don't really have any desire to, but I think it and Ad Nauseam effectively compete for a slot—they both cost life, they don't work well together, and it's an ordeal to double-cast either one off of Past in Flames. I personally think Petition's a lot better because of its utility in PiF loops and for setting up fast Tendrils kills, though I'm not deadset against Grim the way I used to be.

[Spam]

That's the misconception. DP is a combo piece pure and simple, where GT is an utility card that also works as business.

Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk

[Sloshthedark]

I recently started playing MTGO in addition to paper magic, and figured I'd use this opportunity to keep better track of my results.
Anywho, figured the data dump might be interesting to some folks.

I've also recently bought into MODO, I'm at 75 matches atm, will dive into it once I get to 100.... it's quite manually challenging for me, losing because you can't click ToA triggers under 10 sec and timing out is really frustrating... UBG seems to be the major force there, I'm 6-5 atm (+2-0 against decks with Shardless agent) I also face a lot of Stompy decks, not that many Miracles and I'm losing postboard more than usualy 4-4 atm, overall the Modo shuffler is a weird thing, I get ridiculous hands in both directions and actually achived my lifetime longest losing streak of 0-8, also awesome 0-3 against Burn guy who did not even have Eidolons... maybe it's because online compared to human the shuffling is more random but the game itself feels more and more random in general to me...

[Jeff]

UBG seems to be the major force there, I'm 6-5 atm (+2-0 against decks with Shardless agent)

Ahh yeah I forgot Shardless stuff when I was mentioning BUG. I'm 4-1 against Shardless and Aluren, but those are very different decks from Team America and Noble BUG. Much better for us.

[fangzie]

Business: That hasn't to be true. Running one EtW with AdN let's you have the option of creating a lot of guys preboard while still being able to pull of some draws in other games with AdN if necessary; meaning MU = you choose your weapon accordingly. That's why you don't get "delvered" or "bolted to death" because you can simply go for EtW with Tutor in those games (except the games where you fire off AdN from hand of course).

The main reason I don't like empty with Ad Nauseam is that in the majority of matchups, flipping Empty off Ad Nauseam is just miserable, and when if happens, if it were any other piece of business, I'd be happier. And there's only a small number of matchups where I'm comfortable casting Empty off the Ad Nauseam.

[Jeff]

The main reason I don't like empty with Ad Nauseam is that in the majority of matchups, flipping Empty off Ad Nauseam is just miserable, and when if happens, if it were any other piece of business, I'd be happier. And there's only a small number of matchups where I'm comfortable casting Empty off the Ad Nauseam.

Agreed. It's just not where I want to be nowadays. I truly don't understand the people who love it, but clearly I'm in the minority.

There are increasingly few matchups where I want the Empty the Warrens anyway. I swear I lose as many games to BUG as I win after an empty for 10 or 12. It seems like every time I do that they just dump 3 deathrites the next turn and I watch them eat my goblins and stabilize at 4 or something.

[lordofthepit]

http://i.imgur.com/SyPRa9l.png

lololol man this deck is fun, turn oned this poor chap 2 games in a row.

Oh man, Cockatrice salt never fails to crack me up.

https://media.giphy.com/media/zv0brdetysAMM/giphy.gif

[Jonathan Alexander]

There really is no escape. I thought this was a safe zone!

[ubernostrum]

The main reason I don't like empty with Ad Nauseam is that in the majority of matchups, flipping Empty off Ad Nauseam is just miserable, and when if happens, if it were any other piece of business, I'd be happier. And there's only a small number of matchups where I'm comfortable casting Empty off the Ad Nauseam.

Not as bad as hitting Dark Petition as the second card off your Ad Nauseam, putting you to dead on board versus your opponent's Deathrite Shaman + Wirewood Symbiote after you'd already fought through their double Thoughtseize, double Therapy, Gaddock Teeg flurry of hate to have a shot at going off.

Which is what happened to me earlier this evening when trying out one of the recent 5-0 lists on MTGO.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Dark Petition makes your Ad Nauseams way more consistent and they average out lower.

[Jeff]

Dark Petition makes your Ad Nauseams way more consistent and they average out lower.

I don't understand this statement, can you elaborate?

[CabalTherapy]

I don't understand this statement, can you elaborate?

We had this discussion a few times already. It's presumably easier to hit Dark Petition into a win (not involving LED) than in other setups; presumed you
play Chrome Mox or Rain of Filth in addition to the generic mana choices.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Anyone willing to update the primer to include information such as this? Would be great to have a FAQ section.

[Jeff]

We had this discussion a few times already. It's presumably easier to hit Dark Petition into a win (not involving LED) than in other setups; presumed you
play Chrome Mox or Rain of Filth in addition to the generic mana choices.

OK, But how does it average out lower?

[CabalTherapy]

OK, But how does it average out lower?

You are more likely to hit a winning line, assuming you only play one Pif, which usually is quite bad in AdN lines, since DP is a tutor that doesn't
require LED but any mana. Plus, it is "cheaper" than revealing and playing Grim Tutor. Both, manawise (you need LED or more Rituals) and it costs more life obviously.

I am just recalling what has been said and established as the general notions of good flipping AdNs.

FAQ is a decent idea.

[Jonathan Alexander]

OK, But how does it average out lower?

Ad Nauseams with double Petition are much more consistently in the 10-12 life range. When you don't have Petition in the deck, you get wins in the 7 life range more often, but you also go up to 17-18 way more often than you do with double Petition. As Robert mentioned, this is mostly due to the fact that non-Petition lists need to hit LED+Tutor(+initial mana) or Tendrils + initial mana, whereas the Petition lists have more winning combinations. The best Ad Nauseams came from my old 1 Ad Nauseam 1 Past in Flames 2 Tendrils 1 Mox 1 Rain lists (early Dig era if I remember correctly).

Sorry I can't provide actual numbers on this, my data was lost with my old computer about a year ago. I had reasonably high sample sizes for manual simulations of Ad Nauseam in common scenarios, my main focus being the classic turn two DRit, LED, Infernal 17 life.

[Ronald Deuce]

Thirding an FAQ. I think that would do a lot to clarify some of these things, and I think people will appreciate having the info condensed.

I've had a rockier road with Petition and Ad Nauseam. With that said, I only started to notice problems with it when I switched the second Petition for a second Past in Flames; I wasn't keeping a thorough account, but I started to notice I'd have lots of dead draws off of (even turn-1) Ad Nauseas—many more than I'd had with two Petitions. Ever since I cut my business slots back by one (kept the double-PiF), it started working better again. That might be just my (paltry) improvement as a player, and I haven't compared my original setup with my current business-light, double-PiF build.

[Morden]

Hi everyone!!
after a lot of testing, delusions and bad luck, finally I conquered my first serious top 8, in a tournament of 46 people last Sunday.

6 rounds of swiss.

1st round: JUND
g1: a gitaxian probe sees a slow hand, made by tarmo, sylvan library, punishing fire, some lands, life from the loam. Cabal therapy on library. I have time to sculpt my hand and win the turn after he drops tarmogoyf via nauseam.
g2: always a gitaxian, that sees an horrible chalice of the void. Luckly he didn't have 2 mana to cast it on turn 1, but I have no black mana for the therapy. Brainstorm finds a petal, chalice discarded and victory is easy, tutor chain.
2-0, 1-0

2nd round: UBW STONEBLADE
g1: he drops a stoneforge, taking batterskull. I use my therapy to remove the batterskull, I see a force. Urgh, my hand is perfect, I need another discard......Drop sensei. He casts another stoneforge on his turn. Spin the top EOT, only a fetch. Draw the fetch, fetch immediately, spin the top, duress. Draw with sensei, win with pif.
g2: he basically plays only lands and cantrips. On my 3rd turn he has only 2 lands, tapped....I understand he is not in a good situation. Cabal therapy naming force, nothing in hand, win with pif.
4-0, 2-0


3rd round: MIRACLE
He is one of the best player in Europe, Angelo Cadei.
g1: he starts. Island go. I kept a mediocre hand, I cast gitaxian probe and see fow, ponder, sensei, brainstorm, some lands. I cast an useless cabal therapy..... Brainstorm in response. I name fow, I saw counterbalance. Nice. His turn, he drops counterbalance, game ends quickly
g2: grinding station plan. He counters a turn 1 carpet of flower. Unfortunally he knows perfectly how to play against this build, we spend a lot of turns doing lands/go, lands/cantrip/go. When I try to go all in, he has an hand like fow, surgical, fluster, fluster, counter, pyroblast. I have 2 discard card, 2 ritual, 2 gitaxian, 1 tendrils, 2 led on board to pay flusterstorm. He makes no error and I empty my hands. He does the same, but he has a snapcaster on the field the kill me quickly.
4-2, 2-1

4th round: BURN
I personally HATE this matchup, and I don't find it absolutely easy. It's not the worst one, but it's not an easy win. One of our wincon, ad nauseam, is useless (and in my build also thoughtseize and mox), that's a big thing I think.
g1: guide, swiftspear, bolt. I'm force to shot a mini-tendrils to gain 10 life and being alive some turns. Luckly I find a pif cantripping like a desperate and tendrils again for 8 (he fetched twice).
g2: same a g1 basically. A gitaxian probe on my side sees an eidolon, discarded immediately by therapy. Decay the swiftspear, to lose less life. Then again, mini-tendrils and again pif for the win.
6-2,3-1

5th round: PAINTER
g1: I start crying when he drops a mountain, I mulliganed to 5(2 rites, 1 cantrips, 2 lands). Luckly he puts a sensei on turn 2, I feel better, and my good mood transfer to the deck that gives me ad nauseam on turn 3. Nauseam is bad, I have to stop. He doesn't combo off next turn so I can win on the next.
g2: thorn of ametist turn 1, I don't find decay or echoing, I'm stuck at 2 lands, gg.
g3: win like a pro. I have an opening hand of land/land/nauseam/cabal ritual/cabal ritual/rain of filth. Turn 2 win easily.
8-3, 4-1

6th round: BUG
ID

I enter the top as 8th and I find my teammate on ELDRAZI..............
g1: no chalice, no pressure, I win somehow (I don't remember exaclty, I thought it was a dream and didn't take notes).
g2: well, THIS I remember...... turn 1: leyline of the void, chalice on 0, chalice on 1. No problem, we have echoing. Trinisphere. gg.
g3: always leyline of the void on the field.....but my hand is good, I have a lot of mana and a led, need only business. He keeps and hand with only ONE land (mishra), seer and trinisphere are far menaces!! Victory is very very close I think, but I was too lucky this day, now it's time to pay debts to fucking Destiny. Cantrips don't show business, he draws a land every turn............... on turn 3 he makes a BIG mistake, deciding to cast seer over trinisphere. I have only mana, no big deal, if I draw a tutor I win. Nope. Useless land, pass, trinisphere, gg.

conclusions:
- I was lucky with the matchups: jund and painter are easy, stoneblade can be difficult post side but he screwed, burn is close (maybe 60-40 for us).
- chrome mox was never topdecked, I found once after nauseam: good, that's its purpose.
- 3 cabal/1 filth is the right combination for me. Filth enables fast combo, and help against graveyard hate. 4 cabal are redundant if you play filth and mox.
- I had empty main in the past, over sensei. I switch them, improving my nauseam.
- meta is still low-blue, second pif is not necessary. With 7 discards maindeck I can handle counter and hate (also creatures, with 4 therapy and 1 thoughtseize)

[bjholmes3]

Hey guys. I've updated the OP with a few key things: up-to-date sample decklist, revised card explanation section, added FAQs section, and removed deprecated information. At this time my primary goal is to populate the FAQs section. To start with, I am going to answer what to name with Cabal Therapy and the Ad Nauseam - Dark Petition interaction discussed above. Please let me know if you have any additional questions you would like answered.

[Sibelius]

Thought this might exercise some of your brains.
Miracles vs Storm. We are Miracles and the Storm player is going off. What do we do? And Why?

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/whats-the-play-miracles-vs-storm/

Sib

[bjholmes3]

imo your best line of play here is to concede the game :V

[Jonathan Alexander]

If the opponent has Past in Flames plus land, discard, ritual, Infernal or Tendrils, you can't win. If you Snare Cabal Ritual and they have Tendrils plus cantrip into any spell, you're also dead. Only way you can win is if they have to resolve Infernal Tutor or Petition, and Petition can't be combined with a discard spell (this combination is unlikely, otherwise they would've taken your Force already). Thus you let the CRit resolve and hope they need to resolve Infernal.

Edit: Also like that they censored player names but it still shows whose turn seven it is.

[Togores]

Also counting that its g1. I dont expect them to have 2 tendrills in the deck.

Now if they have petition/nauseam + infernal and you snare you win because they have to play petition wich you force so they are 1 mana short of infernal into tendrills.

If they have another discard + infernal you loose if you snare. But I expect him to have played the discard before. But this could be bait.

If they have pif + tutor or tendrills you have to snare because they are so low on mana to double pif you.

I think th safest way is to snare the cabal. If they would have another discard they would have not started with seize. If it was a therapy they would have played it first and also duress over seize because of the free lifeloss.

I think I did my math right.

Snaring the cabal means that you loose to discard + bussiness but you win in all other sceanrios I can think of.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Also counting that its g1. I dont expect them to have 2 tendrills in the deck.

Now if they have petition/nauseam + infernal and you snare you win because they have to play petition wich you force so they are 1 mana short of infernal into tendrills.

You also win here if you don't Snare.


If they have another discard + infernal you loose if you snare. But I expect him to have played the discard before. But this could be bait.

Agree this is highly unlikely.


If they have pif + tutor or tendrills you have to snare because they are so low on mana to double pif you.

They are only one mana short of double Past in Flames if you Snare. Not too unlikely they have something.


Snaring the cabal means that you loose to discard + bussiness but you win in all other sceanrios I can think of.

You also lose to Past in Flames + any mana (including land) or cantrip/Inernal + Tendrils.

[Sibelius]

If the opponent has Past in Flames plus land, discard, ritual, Infernal or Tendrils, you can't win. If they have Tendrils plus cantrip into any spell, you're also dead. Only way you can win is if they have to resolve Infernal Tutor or Petition, and Petition can't be combined with a discard spell (this combination is unlikely, otherwise they would've taken your Force already). Thus you let the CRit resolve and hope they need to resolve Infernal.

Edit: Also like that they censored player names but it still shows whose turn seven it is.

Many thanks, I have edited the picture again. Mtgo.....

Sib

[Julian23]

I think th safest way is to snare the cabal.

I wrote about this on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/5vb1p7/whats_the_play_miracles_vs_storm_lpv/de0o43k/). I think you shouldn't Snare the Cabal Ritual since that will very likely make you lose on the next turn if they have Past in Flames. Their second card doesn't even need to be anything.

Assuming they have PiF, I concluded that the safest thing to do is to just let CR resolve.


If they have Tendrils plus cantrip into any spell, you're also dead.

They need Cantrip intro Cantrip into Spell. Otherwise you could FoW one of the Tendrils copies and stay alive at 1.

Other option is to Cantrip into a discard spell.

[Togores]

Im asuming he is dead next turn with all my thought.
He is at 10
snare makes 1 token
In worst case scenario you can eot flash in caster. If you force then you have another token.

You play top

thats
mentor 2+1
scm 2
scm/monk 1+1
monk 1+1
thats 9 damage + any spell in the top 3 cards (including a swords) is a lethal gamble I would do everyday.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I wrote about this on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/5vb1p7/whats_the_play_miracles_vs_storm_lpv/de0o43k/). I think you shouldn't Snare the Cabal Ritual since that will very likely make you lose on the next turn if they have Past in Flames. Their second card doesn't even need to be anything.

Assuming they have PiF, I concluded that the safest thing to do is to just let CR resolve.

Past in Flames next turn is not a consideration, you have Mentor, Snapcaster and a Monk with Top, they're dead if you Snare and they don't kill you.



They need Cantrip intro Cantrip into Spell. Otherwise you could FoW one of the Tendrils copies and stay alive at 1.

Other option is to Cantrip into a discard spell.

No, if you Snare Storm is already six.

Rodrigo, if you Snare they are dead. You plaw Top on your turn, draw, cast Snapcaster, Ponder into Top, cast Top, attack for 11.

[Julian23]

I forgot to account for the 2 Mentor tokens you get, which makes this option an actually viable option.

[Togores]

I overlooked the ponder :P

But yeah, they are dead next turn.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I forgot to account for the 2 Mentor tokens you get, which makes this option an actually viable option.

Honestly this is irrelevant. They are super dead if you get to untap anyway.

[Julian23]

No, if you Snare Storm is already six.

Why would you Snare though? You said "If they have Tendrils plus cantrip into any spell, you're also dead.", which was what I was contesting.


Honestly this is irrelevant. They are super dead if you get to untap anyway.

It is very relevant. The two tokens make a world of difference (see my reddit post). If you didn't get the two tokens, it makes more sense to let everything resolve since you'll be left with either FoW or Snapcaster+FoW for the PiF flashback. Since without the tokens, you are super unlikely to kill them the next turn.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Why would you Snare though? You said "If they have Tendrils plus cantrip into any spell, you're also dead.", which was what I was contesting.

Ah, just realised I forgot to put "If you Snare" there. Gonna go and edit that.


It is very relevant. The two tokens make a world of difference (see my reddit post). If you didn't get the two tokens, it makes more sense to let everything resolve since you'll be left with either FoW or Snapcaster+FoW for the PiF flashback. Since without the tokens, you are super unlikely to kill them the next turn.

That's where we disagree. I don't think you need to kill them next turn, I'm fine untapping and playing Top.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Full explanation, think this covers all combinations of cards.


1) Opponent has Infernal + discard.

You lose if you cast Snare and win if you don't. Note that it's not unlikely they play this way if these are their remaining cards; double discard does not prevent you from casting countermagic no matter how they play it, so they need to bait the Snare.


2) Opponent has Petition + discard.

You can't win.


3) Opponent has discard + cantrip into Tendrils.

You can't win.


4) Opponent has discard + Tendrils.

They can't win unless you cast multiple spells.


5) Opponent has Ad Nauseam + discard.

You can't prevent Ad Nauseam from happening and you're unlikely to win (they're ~70% from this board to kill you if I remember my stats correctly).


6) Opponent has Past in Flames + discard.

You can't win.


→ If they have discard + business, there's no reason to cast anything.


7) Opponent has any mana source (including Infernal or land) + Past in Flames.

You can't win.


8) Opponent has Past in Flames + nothing.

In this case, if CRit resolves, you're dead. If you Snare, you still lose to Past in Flames (Force), Past in Flames flashback, Ponder into LED. Note that nothing in this case means Storm spell, Petition, Ad Nauseam or Past in Flames. In other words, their remaining two cards both have to be from a group of a maximum of five cards.


9) Opponent has Tendrils + cantrip into any CMC 0, 1 or 2 spell.

You lose if you cast anything.


10) They straight up have nothing and just want to gather information for the next games.

Not something I want to get into, very hard to judge on MTGO.


11) Opponent has Empty.

You're not going to lose to that with Mentor, Top and Snapcaster + Ponder.


I'm also not going in depth on cantrips, but those don't really change anything.

[Ronald Deuce]

This is the kind of discussion I like to see.

Also, it's nice to think about Storm from the other player's perspective; I think it helps us figure out why what we do works when it works, and why it doesn't when it doesn't.

[Sibelius]

This is the kind of discussion I like to see.

Also, it's nice to think about Storm from the other player's perspective; I think it helps us figure out why what we do works when it works, and why it doesn't when it doesn't.

I'm glad you like it. I posted the same article in the Miracles thread and there has so far been no discussion about how to play it at all. I wonder why?

Sib

[Sloshthedark]

Thought this might exercise some of your brains.
Miracles vs Storm. We are Miracles and the Storm player is going off. What do we do? And Why?

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/whats-the-play-miracles-vs-storm/

Sib

Oh, that was me =) ... you're step ahead there I think, he knew I have 2CR and he knows he has me dead by double countering, if you did not fight on the 2nd one (1st threshed) I think you wont fight and hope you get to counter the IT in the GY as I'd put myself on PiF (more likely) or ToA which makes sense to not fight ... Spoiler alert - I had both so the only sure winning line was to counter both CR


I'm glad you like it. I posted the same article in the Miracles thread and there has so far been no discussion about how to play it at all. I wonder why?

Sib

Storm guys love scenarios? ;) it's one of the main appeals of the deck

[Togores]

After seeing something.

even if Jona Said that spell snaring the cabal was wrong.


I will say that this g1 of the sceanario resolved on double tendrills allowed by the cabal ritual resolving^^

Edit: Just read Sloshs coment^^

I did not know you played MTGO Slosh XD

[Sloshthedark]

After seeing something.

even if Jona Said that spell snaring the cabal was wrong.


I will say that this g1 of the sceanario resolved on double tendrills allowed by the cabal ritual resolving^^

Edit: Just read Sloshs coment^^

I did not know you played MTGO Slosh XD

just started, had an opportunity to have it reasonably cheap for a 1-2 months, I plan to elaborate on my XP when I find time, it's quite different to paper for me

[Togores]

We played on mtgo. You didnt even say hi to me :(

Was weird that game because I saw your extirpate and decklist and thought: WOW Someone plays a deck like Sloshs...

[Sloshthedark]

We played on mtgo. You didnt even say hi to me :(

Was weird that game because I saw your extirpate and ecklist and thought: WOW Someone plays a like like Sloshs...

Yeah, sorry about that, felt a bit guilty about it, but had a skype call and you killed me quite fast

[CabalTherapy]

Yeah, sorry about that, felt a bit guilty about it, but had a skype call and you killed me quite fast

It was the classic Togores: Brainstormed into win faster than Sloshy was able to write "hi".

[Togores]

yeah, sorry about that, felt a bit guilty about it, but had a skype call and you killed me quite fast


np :p

[CabalTherapy]

I have been testing Fatal Push and it seems like a decent addition to the storm SB pool. I already like Disfigure and played it in some bigger events but
Push has some relevant upsides, which makes it even more appealing. Apart from the fact that I like to bring in some sort of removal against tempo and bug midrange decks
to take out their clocks or remove problematic creatures such as Leovold or Deathrite, it also kills Nexus in Infect and Goyf in various decks.
Not to mention its importance against DnT and being oncolour cc1 makes me want to keep on playing it over any other form of spot/mass removal.

Especially since it looks like permanent based non-creature hate in those 4c decks sees less play at the moment; such things like Null Rod, which I think is a good
reason to bring in Decay over any other removal but seeing all those heavy reactive SBs, Push pushes itself into the foreground. Try it out, guys.

[Morden]

I was thinking recently about fatal push. D&T is going down I think, after the explosion of conspiracy 2. Three cards in the sideboard for them (2 dread, 1 massacre) are indead too much, I think I will add a single FP to try.

[Jeff]

I've been trying the same thing. Against BUG Delver having the option to kill Deathrite to open PiF back up if you don't have infinite mana, or to kill Delver to keep Ad Nauseam alive as an option, or to kill Leovold so they don't draw a million cards, it seems very useful. It's a damn shame to have to include a removal spell, but I think that's where we are.

[CabalTherapy]

I've been trying the same thing. Against BUG Delver having the option to kill Deathrite to open PiF back up if you don't have infinite mana, or to kill Delver to keep Ad Nauseam alive as an option, or to kill Leovold so they don't draw a million cards, it seems very useful. It's a damn shame to have to include a removal spell, but I think that's where we are.

"Creature decks" or decks that win creatures that are played from hand and attack (Maro stlye) are as strong as they have been (although we see less vanilas making removals more relevant) but now Push punishes them even more for their suboptimal deck choice. :cool:

[Sibelius]

Thought this might exercise some of your brains.
Miracles vs Storm. We are Miracles and the Storm player is going off. What do we do? And Why?

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/whats-the-play-miracles-vs-storm/

Sib

So here is the Answer as I see it. Thanks for all the input on the forums, I read all of your ideas.

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/whats-the-play-miracles-vs-storm-answers/

Sib

[Nestalim]

Hey guys,

I've seen a lot of ANT list with 1 or 2 Tendrils in their sideboard, I was wondering, but I can't figure the reason to have more than one copy.

I identify some scenario, like discard - Drs on it, or tons of mana hand with Tutor + one tendrils into a second tendrils, but more reasons would be appreciated.

[Douif]

Hey guys,

I've seen a lot of ANT list with 1 or 2 Tendrils in their sideboard, I was wondering, but I can't figure the reason to have more than one copy.

I identify some scenario, like discard - Drs on it, or tons of mana hand with Tutor + one tendrils into a second tendrils, but more reasons would be appreciated.

Actually, the main reason of additional tendrils in the sideboard is to be able to grind your opponent, especially vs miracles where you play a grinding station game in g2/g3, or against decks like UR Delver/Burn, where you can play small tendrils in order to gain time against all their burn spells, and kill them with another tendrils some turns later.

[Sloshthedark]

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j378/Sloshthedark/mtg/snap00927.jpg

1, storm 1, landdrop made, opponent has SE in hand, assuming you're dead if he untaps, what do you do? it's not as simple as it seems

2, if you decided to flashback PIF, what do you SE if you'd be the opponent?

EDIT - 3, if you cast Ad Nauseam, what do you SE if you'd be the opponent (if you decided not to wait)?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Get LED, float B, cast Past in Flames. Opponent casts Surgical on anything but Infernal, they're dead. If they take Infernal, I'm content with 2 Probe, 2 Ponder, BBBBBB and U. If they don't Surgical, cast LED. Now they should see they have to Surgical Infernal. Proceed with cantrips, cast Ad Nauseam if that's what you hit.

[Togores]

If you cast led they are gonna take your pif. So you just have now to cast nauseam or pif. If you wanna cast pif you have to search for a petal because they will think you got a led and surgical them in response to the pif.

Also seeing the stormcount would help.

[Jeff]

Get LED, float B, cast Past in Flames. Opponent casts Surgical on anything but Infernal, they're dead. If they take Infernal, I'm content with 2 Probe, 2 Ponder, BBBBBB and U. If they don't Surgical, cast LED. Now they should see they have to Surgical Infernal. Proceed with cantrips, cast Ad Nauseam if that's what you hit.

If I'm the opponent I'm surgicaling Past in Flames with LED on the stack. That doesn't work. You can flash back the Past in Flames without casting the LED of course, but then you've just got black mana when it comes time to do stuff, so those two probes better do work.