[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Ancestral]

yeah I know the journey, but I'm glad I have it 99% finished (need jap foil CoV), if you ever get the PiF signed post it I haven't seen that sig anywhere

just try it out and tell yourself, that's the best way, you might not like it afterall who knows, but I can assure you it shreds UR and UWR quite well and Miracles can be quite close - depends on their SB plan and player obv.

those are expensive :p and yes i only have in japanese not sign yet.

and if it´s better agains UR and UWR it´s good to have now, in my meta there are a lot of bug, i m hoping that this version can fight bug better as well, in theory i guess it´s better :)

[Bryant Cook]

yeah I know the journey, but I'm glad I have it 99% finished (need jap foil CoV), if you ever get the PiF signed post it I haven't seen that sig anywhere

I've messaged Anthony Jones twice with no response either time...

[Ancestral]

I've messaged Anthony Jones twice with no response either time...

i can´t even saw any signature of him in any card ...maybe my journey it will be longer than i expected, also congratz on your awesome looking TES deck :D i´ve watched you games at scg and it´s a pleasure to see the deck :D you should play ANT, that way i (and other players) can learn even more ahah

[Sloshthedark]

those are expensive :p and yes i only have in japanese not sign yet.

and if it´s better agains UR and UWR it´s good to have now, in my meta there are a lot of bug, i m hoping that this version can fight bug better as well, in theory i guess it´s better :)
not that much, I missed auctions when it ended up at $50 and I'm just not willing to buy at $100, and coversion rate is a bitch for my country lately (upside is I haven't bought into Modo thanks to this)
BUG is reasonably good preboard (EtW) and very bad postboard - I have just Needles and Ad Nauseam postboard... otherwise it would be the best deck and everyone would play it ;)


I've messaged Anthony Jones twice with no response either time...
exactly the same for me... maybe we should write high numbers into the message, but I have a feeling unless a person who know him or someone like Markers step in the door will be closed

[sawatarix]

Most of the (experienced) Storm-players (TES/Ant) are in the habit to pimp their Decks for some reason - so do I :D

Every time i go to a bigger tournament i see new people with foil/russian/japanese/beta/blackboardered/whatever stormdecks and honestly, i really enjoy to play with and against those decks. For me these cards changed my playstyle and i think most of you will agree: I play more patiently and i reveal my ad nauseam cards pretty slowly because i enjoy every single shiny card among them.
End of Trashtalk.

#New Topic: A friend of mine who saw the pyromancer build asked me what i think about goblin rabblemaster against miracle control :DDDD
Still getting new ideas from different people about a new blowout sideboard against certain decks.

[Chaam]

I posted this on the storm boards but posting here to see what people think.

I've been wanting to make a list that has the most consistent/focused G1s and came up with the following (note the absence of Ad Naus and a 15th land):

Sorceries (25)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

Instants (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

Artifacts (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Lands (15)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam


The Mainboard is streamlined and focused for a G1 PiF kill (with 16 cantrips, 16 fast mana, 7 discard/protection, 4 tutors, 1 engine, 1 win con) since I had previously found myself boarding out Ad Naus a lot in this heavy Burn/Delver meta. I think just going for PiF g1 and then SBing in Ad Naus for g2 adn g3 in the matchups you want it is probably a good idea right now.

[wonderPreaux]

8 discard seems like a bit much, and cutting land when Delver, and thus Daze, is a big deal seems to defeat the purpose of ANT's consistent mana development. Why not just run 16 cantrips, 15 land, 7 discard, 16 accel, 6 business and Ad Nauseam in the board? I actually think this could be cool to try fwiw, since I'm a big fan of 16 cantrips.

[Chaam]

8 discard seems like a bit much, and cutting land when Delver, and thus Daze, is a big deal seems to defeat the purpose of ANT's consistent mana development. Why not just run 16 cantrips, 15 land, 7 discard, 16 accel, 6 business and Ad Nauseam in the board? I actually think this could be cool to try fwiw, since I'm a big fan of 16 cantrips.

That makes sense. I edited my post accordingly.

I need to figure out the SB though. I feel like I always over SB.

[Togores]

Most of the (experienced) Storm-players (TES/Ant) are in the habit to pimp their Decks for some reason - so do I :D

Every time i go to a bigger tournament i see new people with foil/russian/japanese/beta/blackboardered/whatever stormdecks and honestly, i really enjoy to play with and against those decks. For me these cards changed my playstyle and i think most of you will agree: I play more patiently and i reveal my ad nauseam cards pretty slowly because i enjoy every single shiny card among them.
End of Trashtalk.

#New Topic: A friend of mine who saw the pyromancer build asked me what i think about goblin rabblemaster against miracle control :DDDD
Still getting new ideas from different people about a new blowout sideboard against certain decks.

Hahahahahaahaah
I also spoke to some friends this week about it. I recomendet it to a friend for his dragon stompy. And then thought of ant. Problem i saw is u never get value 100% because with pyro u can make a gitaxian after him. And get 1 token. Good thing is that is a 4 turn clock with no investiment.
Not bad.

[Ancestral]

Most of the (experienced) Storm-players (TES/Ant) are in the habit to pimp their Decks for some reason - so do I :D

Every time i go to a bigger tournament i see new people with foil/russian/japanese/beta/blackboardered/whatever stormdecks and honestly, i really enjoy to play with and against those decks. For me these cards changed my playstyle and i think most of you will agree: I play more patiently and i reveal my ad nauseam cards pretty slowly because i enjoy every single shiny card among them.
End of Trashtalk.

#New Topic: A friend of mine who saw the pyromancer build asked me what i think about goblin rabblemaster against miracle control :DDDD
Still getting new ideas from different people about a new blowout sideboard against certain decks.

for sure, i have so much fun revealing my cards from ad nauseum :p i saw your deck too in prague eternal coverage, just awesome too!!

about rabblemaster, i guess it´s worth the testing at least but pyromancer seems better in general, and easy to cast, 1 less mana can make the difference :) just my 2 cents

[Shaman]

That makes sense. I edited my post accordingly.

I need to figure out the SB though. I feel like I always over SB.

I like 16 cantrips as well if not playing with Grinding Station.
I guess switching the fourth petal for a second PiF would be nice considering PiF becomes your G1 win conditioncondition (but tu tor chain).

I would be interested to see your SB pan :-)

[Ancestral]

I posted this on the storm boards but posting here to see what people think.

I've been wanting to make a list that has the most consistent/focused G1s and came up with the following (note the absence of Ad Naus and a 15th land):

Sorceries (25)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

Instants (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

Artifacts (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Lands (15)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam


The Mainboard is streamlined and focused for a G1 PiF kill (with 16 cantrips, 16 fast mana, 7 discard/protection, 4 tutors, 1 engine, 1 win con) since I had previously found myself boarding out Ad Naus a lot in this heavy Burn/Delver meta. I think just going for PiF g1 and then SBing in Ad Naus for g2 adn g3 in the matchups you want it is probably a good idea right now.

in my opinion 16 cantrips are too much, i run 14 and still in some games i cantrip into cantrip, and find no buisness, and that´s pretty annoying ! so (as we comment before) if you want to cut ad nauseum main deck, i would recommend more buisness spells, like ETW or 2nd tendrils

[Zombie]

3 Sea 1 Island seems better than 2 Sea 2 Island.

[.Ix]

Played pretty much Togores' list in the last two locals and I'm 7-1 with it so far. In the first event, I played 4 Therapy 3 Duress 2 SDT. Went 3-1 losing to a seriously epic blunder. I beat UW Tempo, Burn twice, and lost to a heavily metagamed Death and Taxes/Stompy list with maindeck RIP/Helm, Tombs, and Chalice. The second Burn player cast Flame Rift turn 2 into my 8-storm hand and I almost felt bad for him while I stormed out.

In the second, I played 1 SDT 2 Preordain, but I often wanted SDT on the table so I'm going back to 2 SDT next time. I went 4-0 beating Elves, UR Delver, Mono black, and the same Death and Taxes list. I don't love the Bayou, but it really hasn't been bad, so I think I'll keep running it. It definitely helps in casting Decay in sideboard games, especially since a lot of people play Chalice around here. This deck is an absolute blast to play.

How do you guys sideboard against Xblade decks? I just board in 2 Chains of Vapor, removing 1 swamp and 1 preordain, but I'm not sure if that's correct. Most of their disruption comes from permanents and counterspells, and I think the deck is already good enough at beating counterspells with 7 discard.

[GoblinZ]

How do you guys sideboard against Xblade decks? I just board in 2 Chains of Vapor, removing 1 swamp and 1 preordain, but I'm not sure if that's correct. Most of their disruption comes from permanents and counterspells, and I think the deck is already good enough at beating counterspells with 7 discard.

deathblade usually plays 2 wasteland and “traditional” patriot featured by Bob Huang recently still plays full set of wasteland, I don't think you want to side out swamp in these mu. Generally speaking, you should side out your weakest mana source and cantrips first, since a lot of Xblade decks don't play daze, it is safe to side out a few lotus petals. Besides, I also consider decay to deal with their permanent hate such as meddling mage.

[davelin]

Played pretty much Togores' list in the last two locals and I'm 7-1 with it so far. In the first event, I played 4 Therapy 3 Duress 2 SDT. Went 3-1 losing to a seriously epic blunder. I beat UW Tempo, Burn twice, and lost to a heavily metagamed Death and Taxes/Stompy list with maindeck RIP/Helm, Tombs, and Chalice. The second Burn player cast Flame Rift turn 2 into my 8-storm hand and I almost felt bad for him while I stormed out.

In the second, I played 1 SDT 2 Preordain, but I often wanted SDT on the table so I'm going back to 2 SDT next time. I went 4-0 beating Elves, UR Delver, Mono black, and the same Death and Taxes list. I don't love the Bayou, but it really hasn't been bad, so I think I'll keep running it. It definitely helps in casting Decay in sideboard games, especially since a lot of people play Chalice around here. This deck is an absolute blast to play.

How do you guys sideboard against Xblade decks? I just board in 2 Chains of Vapor, removing 1 swamp and 1 preordain, but I'm not sure if that's correct. Most of their disruption comes from permanents and counterspells, and I think the deck is already good enough at beating counterspells with 7 discard.

Usually a chain and a Massacre with taking out two Preordains.

[.Ix]

Good points, guys, thanks. I knew my opponent was on straight esper without Wastelands so I knew I could cut Swamp. 1 chain 1-2 massacre does sound very solid. Worst case, Massacre buys a turn or two for no mana. Thanks!

[CabalTherapy]

I love how people don't evaluate card choices and copy Royce's list. Nothing can weaken his accomplishment but the fact that people are slamming Dark Confidant in the US again is hilarious. See SCG Richmond 13th place. Bob Maher is really a weak card in our SB.

[nevilshute]

Not to be pedantic, but I think Dark Confidant has been way more popular in US ANT sideboards before Royce Walter placed in the GP. For some reasons, storm pilots in the US just really like bob more than we Europeans.

[Ancestral]

but the only reason i saw to use bob now is for copying royce´s list lol that card now is simple not good in the current metagame in my opinion

[Chaam]

but the only reason i saw to use bob now is for copying royce´s list lol that card now is simple not good in the current metagame in my opinion

Your right, bob is pretty bad atm. But, you could use them for the mirror. Looking at the last Open it seemed like UWR Stoneblade, Delver Variants, Miracles and Storm were the top decks/most popular ones.

[afb0032]

Not to be pedantic, but I think Dark Confidant has been way more popular in US ANT sideboards before Royce Walter placed in the GP. For some reasons, storm pilots in the US just really like bob more than we Europeans.

That sums it up pretty well. Bob typically has a home in a lot of US player's sideboards since (at least in my metas) discard is still a thing.

I played in 2 local 4 rounds this week finishing 6-1-1 (the draw was intentional in round 4 so my opponent could also money). I played against Miracles (win), UG Eldrazi 12-post (loss), GW aggro/hate bears (win), and Miracles (win) in the first tournament; in the second tournament I played Monoblue Delver (win), MUD (win), Belcher (win), and ID. My big highlight was beating MUD in game 1 on the draw against his turn 1 chalice on 1 and turn 2 trinisphere.

I made some changes from my previous list.

Lands
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 island

Spells
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
4 LED
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 infernal tutor
4 cabal therapy
3 duress
2 preordain
1 past in flames
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 sensei's divining top

Sideboard
3 xantid swarm
3 abrupt decay
2 lightning bolt
2 chain of vapor
2 massacre
1 ad nauseam
1 tendrils
1 pyroclasm

I have really liked the swamp of empty to the main and ad nauseam to the sideboard. I typically don't go all in on empty (6-12 goblins average), unless I know it is a deck that can't handle it game 1 such as delver. I use it as a tool to lower the storm count needed to tendrils or make my opponent waste resources to deal with them or die to a quick clock. I've started to play the deck a bit more grindy which has worked quite well in my local metas. I'm going to give slosh's list a try sometime soon because of this.

[Lemnear]

I have a tough time thinking of a justification of Dark Confidant with so many Lightning Bolts, Forked Bolts and -1/-1 shit in the metagame

[Dia_Bot]

Dark Confidant is decent against miracles and the mirror. But that's about it.
Imo it doesn't change the mirror enough to justify 3 sideboard slots. An important percentage of games in the mirror will still be determined by a T1 or T2 hand where confidant will have no impact at all.
If you want to win the mirror, add more flusterstorms to the sideboard :tongue:

[Royce Walter]

I can't imagine wanting to board Bob in against any deck with Lightning Bolt. I only ever board it in against other combo decks and Miracles, where it's fine but not great. There are definitely cards that are better against specific combo decks, and cards that are better against Miracles, but I can't think of anything that's better across the board against that subset of decks.

[Chaam]

For those who have a 2nd Tendrils in the board. When do you board them in? and what are you taking out?

Also, with those running 1 or 2 bolts in the side is it ever better than having 2 massacre? I also can't imagine boarding in 2 bolts AND 2 massacres alongside decays/chains.

The hardest part about this deck imo is sideboarding (construction and being careful to not overboard)

[Chaam]

Also I am probably insane for playing this deck at my LGS since it is over run with D&T and Miracles but what have you guys found as the best boarding strategies vs. these two decks?

Thanks

[Higgs]

I have 3 DoN and 1 Massacre in my SB against D&T but that's just me. I just don't like losing against pesky decks like that :)

[Ancestral]

For those who have a 2nd Tendrils in the board. When do you board them in? and what are you taking out?

Also, with those running 1 or 2 bolts in the side is it ever better than having 2 massacre? I also can't imagine boarding in 2 bolts AND 2 massacres alongside decays/chains.

The hardest part about this deck imo is sideboarding (construction and being careful to not overboard)

i have a 2nd tendrill in the sideboard and i bring it in, agains miracles, delver variants, burn for example, most of the time i cut ad nauseum to put the second tendrills, except against miracles, in that match i wanna put max number of buisness spells to force through counters/counterbalance.

i don´t run Bolts but i think it´s a good card depending on your meta, i have 2 massacres and it has been enough ;)

[afb0032]

For those who have a 2nd Tendrils in the board. When do you board them in? and what are you taking out?

Also, with those running 1 or 2 bolts in the side is it ever better than having 2 massacre? I also can't imagine boarding in 2 bolts AND 2 massacres alongside decays/chains.

The hardest part about this deck imo is sideboarding (construction and being careful to not overboard)

I bring the 2nd tendrils in against U/R delver, burn, and any games I expect to be grindy. What I take out depends on what I saw game 1, so it varies. So far most people are completely surprised when I cast 2nd tendrils. My explanation for bolts in my sideboard is because I prefer 2 red source lands main. I only bring abrupt decay in against miracles/chalice type decks. Bolt is my 1 mana answer for hate bear decks or decks with lots of disruption and just a few creature wincons post board. At worst I lower the storm count necessary to win, best case I take away their win con/buy turns or draw out the counter for a spell that doesn't mean much to me. So you are correct and it is usually bolts/massacres/pyroclasm or decays/chains, but seldom both.


Also I am probably insane for playing this deck at my LGS since it is over run with D&T and Miracles but what have you guys found as the best boarding strategies vs. these two decks?

Thanks

DnT: +1 pyroclasm, +2 massacre, +2 lightning bolt, +1 chain of vapor; -3 duress, -2 preordain, -1 top

Miracles: +3 abrupt decay, +1 tendrils; -2 cabal ritual or -2 lotus petal depending on the build and if using rest in peace, -2 preordain

Those are what I have found work best for me.

[Togores]

I usualy bring the tendrills vs
Patriot - for the nauseam
Rug delver - ^
Ur delver - ^
Burn - ^
Miracles - for a preordain
Control decks type blade - ^
I domt bring in the tendrills vs delver decks with discard

I also like 2 massacre
Usualy vs taxes I side like so
-4 duress
-2 sensei
-1 nauseam/preordain (depends on how i feel also naseam on the play is better)

+2 massacre
+2 chain
+3 decay

[laserstone]

In the current metagame (e.g. the average SCG open) would you say ANT or TES is the stronger choice? Why?

[badnauseam]

updated http://www.badnauseam.com with latest tournament report. thanks guys!

[sawatarix]

With the rise of uwr delver/stoneblade decks we have to face more annoying meddling mages and ethersworn canonists in addition to pyroblasts.
chain of vapor is still a good weapon against those creatures . Generally I'm not a huge fan of removal which can be countered by pyroblasts although we can play around them. i already saw some guys here in germany packing in some number of massacre and pyroclasm in their sideboards and I'm wondering how nessecary they are.

Another card i would like to talk about is Defense Grid which seems like a xantid swarm with haste for 2 mana most of the time. Because it has 'hexproof' or should i say 'boltproof' defense grid could become a great tool to create a huge barrier and many delver decks struggle when it hits the battlefield.
defense grid together with carpet of flowers is my plan against UR Delver and UWR Delver/stoneblade these days.

This weekend there is a tournament in germany/hannover with around 70 Players and here is my sideboard for the event:

2 Defense Grid
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Massacre (I used to play Dread of Night before but Death&Taxes disappeared and massacre seems great against Decks splashing Meddling Mages)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 ?

The last card could be anything and i don't even think that it is needed to be honest.
The Metagame has a wide variety of decks (as always), there is not a deck in particular which got a huge popularity.

Currently I'm also testing a new blowout card in the sideboard: Meddling Mage itself +1 Tundra to combat other Combodecks and the Mirror in Particular.
Resolve Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony and the Game is immediately over !
The Guy has also a great synergy with gitaxian probe.
Stefan Schütz from Austria came up with the idea, he told me that he plays Ethersworn Canonist in his Ant sideboard and since then he always wins the mirror because those " Oops, I win" cards.

Greeting :)

[Lemnear]

In the current metagame (e.g. the average SCG open) would you say ANT or TES is the stronger choice? Why?

As long as people don't hate on the graveyard, but focus on dealing lots of damage fast, try to trump the Delver mirror with Burn and non-blue decks continue to decline, I think ANT is fine even if the stable manabase became pretty pointless with less Softcounters and Wastelands in the metagame. I think the ability to use Lifepoints as a bumper is big atm

[bondfan]

I think meddling Mage is pretty narrow but isn't extract better?

[JamieW89]

Currently I'm also testing a new blowout card in the sideboard: Meddling Mage itself +1 Tundra to combat other Combodecks and the Mirror in Particular.
Resolve Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony and the Game is immediately over !
The Guy has also a great synergy with gitaxian probe.
Stefan Schütz from Austria came up with the idea, he told me that he plays Ethersworn Canonist in his Ant sideboard and since then he always wins the mirror because those " Oops, I win" cards.

Greeting :)

I considered one of those or Extract for a tournament last month because of all the storm, but there is still a fair amount of TES here, so stuff like Canonist/Extract seemed less good. Mage might get them once though if they side out their empty.

re Def Grid:
I loved it with chant effects, but does it really work as well with discard? Grid+Duress doesn't beat 2 counters + 3 mana.

[Lemnear]

I think meddling Mage is pretty narrow but isn't extract better?

Kai said "combo", not "storm mirror"

[bondfan]

Kai said "combo", not "storm mirror"

Pretty sure the mirror is the only place you would consider hatebears buddy

[CabalTherapy]

Currently I'm also testing a new blowout card in the sideboard: Meddling Mage itself +1 Tundra to combat other Combodecks and the Mirror in Particular.
Resolve Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony and the Game is immediately over !
The Guy has also a great synergy with gitaxian probe.
Stefan Schütz from Austria came up with the idea, he told me that he plays Ethersworn Canonist in his Ant sideboard and since then he always wins the mirror because those " Oops, I win" cards.



Excuse moi, but I am pretty sure that I mentioned it (MMage) during the last Prague Eternal as a troll move to win the mirror and I don't know Stefan Schütz. Nonetheless, it is vastly worse than regular SB cards.

It is arguably as bad as running Hymn to Tourach.

[Dia_Bot]

@Defense Grid: I used to play 3 Defense Grids during the mental misstep area (mostly because they didn't cost 1 :laugh:) and it was definitely fine. They basicaly can't do anything in their own turn they want to keep force mana up which give you plenty of time to set up your hand. It is however obviously way better with chants (but I haven't played white since they printed Abrupt Decay :tongue:).

I'm still unsure is Xantid Swarm isn't better in comparison to Defense Grid. Defense Grid would be sided in in more matchups and doesn't die to bolts or stp but has the downside of costing one more mana and having weird interaction with discard spells...

@the combo matchups: right now I play flusterstorm to combat the mirror, Show and Tell and (to a lesser extend) Reanimator. But I'm not at all convinced they are worth the slots since Show and Tell decks aren't played as much anymore and Reanimator doesn't improve that much with flusterstorm.
Which there was a card that would solve the reanimator and storm mirror match but I've jet to find one unfortunatly.

[CabalTherapy]

Which there was a card that would solve the reanimator and storm mirror match but I've jet to find one unfortunatly.

There is one: Extirpate.
Great against combo strategies and Miracles.

[Dia_Bot]

There is one: Extirpate.
Great against combo strategies and Miracles.
Yeah, the split second clause actually makes it a decent fit. Think I will give it a shot :smile:

[davelin]

There is one: Extirpate.
Great against combo strategies and Miracles.

Extraction effects have been typically seen as just mediocre against Miracles, can you expound on why you think they are great?

[Ancestral]

Yeah, the split second clause actually makes it a decent fit. Think I will give it a shot :smile:

i play a tournament this weekend and play 2 surgical extration in sideboard (for testing reasons) and i was very pleased with the extration effect. But overall i gues extirpate it´s better because split second it´s really good at this moment

[Ancestral]

can anyone tell me some tips or good sideboard cards against MUD? my next tournament it will be like 15 guys and at least 4 MUD decks, since it´s a hard matchup, there are any way to improve this?

[Dia_Bot]

can anyone tell me some tips or good sideboard cards against MUD? my next tournament it will be like 15 guys and at least 4 MUD decks, since it´s a hard matchup, there are any way to improve this?

Best card against MUD is probably rebuild. If your meta is about 1/3 MUD I would def consider playing a couple. Other than that, play out your artifact mana to avoid getting blown out by taxing counters and chalice on zero and be careful for wasteland (first get out your basics). It is a rough matchup but the deck does lose to itself some times + they are just dead to T1 combo's so don't sideboard out fast mana.

[Lemnear]

can anyone tell me some tips or good sideboard cards against MUD? my next tournament it will be like 15 guys and at least 4 MUD decks, since it´s a hard matchup, there are any way to improve this?

Don't play storm

[Ancestral]

Best card against MUD is probably rebuild. If your meta is about 1/3 MUD I would def consider playing a couple. Other than that, play out your artifact mana to avoid getting blown out by taxing counters and chalice on zero and be careful for wasteland (first get out your basics). It is a rough matchup but the deck does lose to itself some times + they are just dead to T1 combo's so don't sideboard out fast mana.


thanks rebuild it´s a card that i never though about i´m gonna try it, thanks a lot for the tips

@lemnear: that´s not an option :laugh: this tournaments for me are just opportunitys to learn better the deck, so i will continue to play it :)

[CabalTherapy]

Extraction effects have been typically seen as just mediocre against Miracles, can you expound on why you think they are great?

Your manner implies that there is a general notion about the use of this card against another certain deck. Interesting.
It's not a "Extraction effect"! It is Extirpate! And I know that it is very good against them. Since it is already 1am and I don't have the time to go into detail let me summarize my experience: Extirpate...
-lets us see the hand of the player
-lets us strip his Counterbalance/FoW/whathaveyou apart with the help of Decay or a discard spell
-allows for a fast 2nd game because it is castable from turn 1 on if Miracle player has pondered or already countered stuff
-split second: "No, your FoW doesn't have power here."

Of course, aside from being good in other MU. But I am sure, sloshthedark, can elaborate on this card, too.

[Sloshthedark]

@Pimp - I see it the other way, a month after completing, my shiny/foreign just became standard visuals for me having seen them thousand times, people who wanting to have a closer look catch me by surprise sometimes... which doesn't mean I can't appreciate money and effort other put into their beauty... the other interesting thing is how telling are some languages/ pimp stuff of your archetype and how it affects your opps mindset towards your experience and competency



I love how people don't evaluate card choices and copy Royce's list. Nothing can weaken his accomplishment but the fact that people are slamming Dark Confidant in the US again is hilarious. See SCG Richmond 13th place. Bob Maher is really a weak card in our SB.

it is amusing... same with Prosak's "signature" - Gemstone mine, 16 cantrips and that awful stuff hiding your hand...



With the rise of uwr delver/stoneblade decks we have to face more annoying meddling mages and ethersworn canonists in addition to pyroblasts.
chain of vapor is still a good weapon against those creatures . Generally I'm not a huge fan of removal which can be countered by pyroblasts although we can play around them. i already saw some guys here in germany packing in some number of massacre and pyroclasm in their sideboards and I'm wondering how nessecary they are.

Another card i would like to talk about is Defense Grid which seems like a xantid swarm with haste for 2 mana most of the time. Because it has 'hexproof' or should i say 'boltproof' defense grid could become a great tool to create a huge barrier and many delver decks struggle when it hits the battlefield.
defense grid together with carpet of flowers is my plan against UR Delver and UWR Delver/stoneblade these days.

This weekend there is a tournament in germany/hannover with around 70 Players and here is my sideboard for the event:

2 Defense Grid
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Massacre (I used to play Dread of Night before but Death&Taxes disappeared and massacre seems great against Decks splashing Meddling Mages)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 ?

The last card could be anything and i don't even think that it is needed to be honest.
The Metagame has a wide variety of decks (as always), there is not a deck in particular which got a huge popularity.

Currently I'm also testing a new blowout card in the sideboard: Meddling Mage itself +1 Tundra to combat other Combodecks and the Mirror in Particular.
Resolve Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony and the Game is immediately over !
The Guy has also a great synergy with gitaxian probe.
Stefan Schütz from Austria came up with the idea, he told me that he plays Ethersworn Canonist in his Ant sideboard and since then he always wins the mirror because those " Oops, I win" cards.

Greeting :)

UWR - 2x Pyroblast, 2x Massacre, 2x Decay and I'm very happy facing UWR

Grid is awful as 1 can be easily paid for and runs into SP, used to be decent right after Snapcaster release

btw. I'd be my pleasure to murder the gentleman after he naively goes for the Cannonist =) the idea is old but I haven't actually seen anyone really perform it ... but in Berlin this mindgame might be great :laugh:




Extraction effects have been typically seen as just mediocre against Miracles, can you expound on why you think they are great?

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15272&iddeck=113405

because Snapcaster is your no.1 problem in long games (might be biased because Philip and Tomas both board out EtA which makes the MU a lot easier)

edit - tried to fit 2 but really 1 is probably enough... it has stripped countless fows from my opps hands and put unbeatable hands to embarassment.... I just like the card, it has been in my SB 95% of the time last 3 years


can anyone tell me some tips or good sideboard cards against MUD? my next tournament it will be like 15 guys and at least 4 MUD decks, since it´s a hard matchup, there are any way to improve this?

EtW MD, 3xRebuild/Recall and you're fine

[davelin]

Your manner implies that there is a general notion about the use of this card against another certain deck. Interesting.
It's not a "Extraction effect"! It is Extirpate! And I know that it is very good against them. Since it is already 1am and I don't have the time to go into detail let me summarize my experience: Extirpate...
-lets us see the hand of the player
-lets us strip his Counterbalance/FoW/whathaveyou apart with the help of Decay or a discard spell
-allows for a fast 2nd game because it is castable from turn 1 on if Miracle player has pondered or already countered stuff
-split second: "No, your FoW doesn't have power here."

Of course, aside from being good in other MU. But I am sure, sloshthedark, can elaborate on this card, too.

I haven't seen many folks advocating Extripate against Miracle decks, and I know others have expounded that Extracting a discarded FoW isn't all that great. Sure Extripate can get rid of those cards with the help of Decay or discard, I don't disagree with your general points but I think "great" may be a tad overstating it.

That being said I'll have to give it a shot, I agree with the notion that it's good in the mirror and against Reanimator so having an overlapping tool with Miracles is a big boon.

[Ancestral]

EtW MD, 3xRebuild/Recall and you're fine


yep i guess i´ll try that :D but with ETW main deck should i cut ad nauseam ? it really hurts my heart cutting this card ahah

[HrishiQQ]

I have been trying to incorporate a heavier use of Grim Tutor in my build. I'm trying it out as a 2-of and even thinking about 3, but the life loss is quite relevant already. I'm trying to minimize using any other lifeloss effect in order to allow running this. I've been impressed with how versatile it allows me to play, such as being able to fetch up singleton SB answers, but the mana cost is a little restrictive. Any thoughts on this? Has anybody tried this before? Are there any other changes I could make to allow for easier usage of this card?

[lordofthepit]

@Pimp - I see it the other way, a month after completing, my shiny/foreign just became standard visuals for me having seen them thousand times, people who wanting to have a closer look catch me by surprise sometimes... which doesn't mean I can't appreciate money and effort other put into their beauty... the other interesting thing is how telling are some languages/ pimp stuff of your archetype and how it affects your opps mindset towards your experience and competency




it is amusing... same with Prosak's "signature" - Gemstone mine, 16 cantrips and that awful stuff hiding your hand...




UWR - 2x Pyroblast, 2x Massacre, 2x Decay and I'm very happy facing UWR

Grid is awful as 1 can be easily paid for and runs into SP, used to be decent right after Snapcaster release

btw. I'd be my pleasure to murder the gentleman after he naively goes for the Cannonist =) the idea is old but I haven't actually seen anyone really perform it ... but in Berlin this mindgame might be great :laugh:





http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15272&iddeck=113405

because Snapcaster is your no.1 problem in long games (might be biased because Philip and Tomas both board out EtA which makes the MU a lot easier)

edit - tried to fit 2 but really 1 is probably enough... it has stripped countless fows from my opps hands and put unbeatable hands to embarassment.... I just like the card, it has been in my SB 95% of the time last 3 years



EtW MD, 3xRebuild/Recall and you're fine


I'd also like to chime in with another comment, as someone who plays both Miracles and ANT fairly regularly: as a Miracles player, I will often be trying to float a Counterspell, Force of Will, or Flusterstorm on top of my library if I have a Sensei's Divining Top available. In the grindy games, Extirpate not only strips the Miracles players of a key card, but it also completely messes up this plan, and I almost never see this coming since storm players don't typically play Krosan Grip or Extirpate.

Note that in this particular matchup, Surgical Extraction is not worth the slot, whereas Extirpate can be useful.

[Togores]

A friend sended me this song and then realized the name of it hahahaha
Its a signal of the Prophethy

elemental-nightmares singing eternal-storm

https://elemental-nightmares.bandcamp.com/track/eternal-storm-the-great-wings-of-silence

[afb0032]

A friend sended me this song and then realized the name of it hahahaha
Its a signal of the Prophethy

elemental-nightmares singing eternal-storm

https://elemental-nightmares.bandcamp.com/track/eternal-storm-the-great-wings-of-silence

Pretty good song. Don't forget, great wings of silence = xantid swarm

[Ornament]

Aside from the obvious inclusion of 4 polluted delta's. Which other fetches are best suited in ANT. Thank you.

[Lemnear]

Aside from the obvious inclusion of 4 polluted delta's. Which other fetches are best suited in ANT. Thank you.

As the decision between Bayou and Badlands this is mainly a matter of your SB. If you run plenty of green answers like Xantid or Decay you want Rainforests to fetch the Bayou; if you run EtW, Pyromancer or the like in the SB you want Scalding Tarns to fetch Badlands.

[Sloshthedark]

Aside from the obvious inclusion of 4 polluted delta's. Which other fetches are best suited in ANT. Thank you.

I'm quite happy with 4Delta 3U 2B conf, R or G see above


On Cannonist - http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/253508#paper

[Tom T]

Aside from the obvious inclusion of 4 polluted delta's. Which other fetches are best suited in ANT. Thank you.

2 Green Sources:
4x Polluted Delta
3/4x Misty Rainforest
0/1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp

4x Polluted Delta
4x U or B Fetch
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
2x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp


2 Red Sources
4x Polluted Delta
3/4x Scalding Tarn
0/1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Island
1x Swamp

4x Polluted Delta
4x U or B Fetch
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp

Also, you can switch out a fetch land to up your Volcanic- or Tropical Island count.

[Asthereal]

Aside from the obvious inclusion of 4 polluted delta's. Which other fetches are best suited in ANT. Thank you.
What Tom said. Some explanation, in case you were wondering:
It is vital that you can find all your Duals with every fetch land you play.

If you run 1x Tropical, 1x Volcanic, 1x Bayou (2x green, 1x red),
you cannot run Tarn or Catacombs, because they fail to find Volcanic/Bayou
in this case you have to run Rainforest and Mire (they find all Duals).

If you run 1x Tropical, 1x Volcanic, 1x Badlands (2x red, 1x green),
you cannot run Rainforest and Mire, because they fail to find Tropical/Badlands
in this case you have to play Tarn and Catacombs (they find all Duals).

Whether you want to have 8x blue & 4x black fetch, or 7x blue & 5x black fetch, or 6x blue and black, is up to you.
The decks that attack the mana base most, tend to kill you slightly slower, so you have time to cantrip.
This is the reason why most choose to run more blue fetch than black (to fetch basic Island for our cantrips).
The cantrips will then hopefully find you a black fetch to get your basic Swamp to be able to safely cast discard.

[Tom T]

What Tom said. Some explanation, in case you were wondering:
It is vital that you can find all your Duals with every fetch land you play.

If you run 1x Tropical, 1x Volcanic, 1x Bayou (2x green, 1x red),
you cannot run Tarn or Catacombs, because they fail to find Volcanic/Bayou
in this case you have to run Rainforest and Mire (they find all Duals).

If you run 1x Tropical, 1x Volcanic, 1x Badlands (2x red, 1x green),
you cannot run Rainforest and Mire, because they fail to find Tropical/Badlands
in this case you have to play Tarn and Catacombs (they find all Duals).

Whether you want to have 8x blue & 4x black fetch, or 7x blue & 5x black fetch, or 6x blue and black, is up to you.
The decks that attack the mana base most, tend to kill you slightly slower, so you have time to cantrip.
This is the reason why most choose to run more blue fetch than black (to fetch basic Island for our cantrips).
The cantrips will then hopefully find you a black fetch to get your basic Swamp to be able to safely cast discard.

Not exactly true. You can find all colours. The one blackbased fetch can only find one of the 2 added sources of a colour: Bloodstained Mire can't fetch the Tropical Island, and Verdant Catacombs can't fetch the Volcanic Island.

[Asthereal]

Not exactly true. You can find all colours. The one blackbased fetch can only find one of the 2 added sources of a colour: Bloodstained Mire can't fetch the Tropical Island, and Verdant Catacombs can't fetch the Volcanic Island.
They can find all colours, yes, but not every Dual, and you don't want that, because it's not optimal. You want every fetch to be able to find every Dual you have, so you can always get the optimal Dual for the situation. And that's possible if you play the correct fetch lands. :wink:

(But you knew that, right? :tongue:)

[Tom T]

They can find all colours, yes, but not every Dual, and you don't want that, because it's not optimal. You want every fetch to be able to find every Dual you have, so you can always get the optimal Dual for the situation. And that's possible if you play the correct fetch lands. :wink:

(But you knew that, right? :tongue:)

Haha! Not exactly, Reinier :tongue:

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp

^This is a solid base I play and I know Jamie plays this too. However, the Mire can't find both you're "sideboard"-coloured duals.

That's what I meant. This might be a reason to play the 4th Misty. However, I find myself fetching the basic Swamp pretty often.

[Asthereal]

Haha! Not exactly, Reinier :tongue:
Oh right, yeah I'm not paying too much attention it seems. :rolleyes:
Mire doesn't find Trop. It does find green though if you run Bayou.
So the fetches depend on the black Dual we play.

I should play this deck again sometimes. It's clearly been too long. :tongue:
(But I feel TES is better right now... tough stuff.)

[Tom T]

Oh right, yeah I'm not paying too much attention it seems. :rolleyes:
Mire doesn't find Trop. It does find green though if you run Bayou.
So the fetches depend on the black Dual we play.

I should play this deck again sometimes. It's clearly been too long. :tongue:
(But I feel TES is better right now... tough stuff.)

I feel like ANT is better against taxing counters and the best TES-build I can come up with is not that much faster than ANT. There is more PIF-hate in the meta right now. But with all the fast decks and ETW (and Ad Nauseam in a lesser extent) being a bad line more quickly, the USP's for TES aren't that appealing at the moment.

I would be playing Miracles or some Delver/Stoneblade concoction if I wasn't so addicted to Storm combo haha.

EDIT: Also, having at least 5 cards extra sideboard-space is awesome.

[Asthereal]

I feel like ANT is better against taxing counters and the best TES-build I can come up with is not that much faster than ANT. There is more PIF-hate in the meta right now. But with all the fast decks and ETW (and Ad Nauseam in a lesser extent) being a bad line more quickly, the USP's for TES aren't that appealing at the moment.
Yeah it's more a feeling than a science based argument.
And my playing style should suit ANT better anyway.
But I don't own Grim Tutor, and the explosiveness of TES just appeals to me. :cool:

[Ancestral]

Yeah it's more a feeling than a science based argument.
And my playing style should suit ANT better anyway.
But I don't own Grim Tutor, and the explosiveness of TES just appeals to me. :cool:

You don´t need grim tutor, i m testing it with and without the card and are very good replacements like SDT, other buisness spell, or even a 3rd preordain for example!

[Asthereal]

You don´t need grim tutor, i m testing it with and without the card and are very good replacements like SDT, other buisness spell, or even a 3rd preordain for example!
I don't have time to test what's best in my card pool.
Perhaps it's 3x Infernal Tutor, 3x Burning Wish.
Perhaps it's the second Ad Nauseam and 2x Chrome Mox or so.

I just don't like 16 cantrip ANT, because I'll just cantrip and cantrip and cantrip.
I'd rather just cough up 12 goblins and see where that gets me.

But it's a personal thing. Not a scientific thing.
ANT scores better numbers for a while now. Perhaps it is objectively better.

[Madsk]

Hardest part for me is sideboarding, i play stocklist.
and this board.
3 xantid swarm
3 carpet of flowers
3 abrupt decay
1 tormod's crypt/surgical
3 dread of night
2 chain of vapors

take miracles
i could board in
+3 abrupt
+3 carpets
+3 xantid swarm

-1 past in flames
-3 cabal ritual (expect gy hosers and i want Ad naseum in because they dont pressure my lifetotal)
-2 preordains
-3 cabal therapy

Is this to much??? as far as my experience is that these games goes long and at the same time discard aint the best vs top and i expect RiP or other GY hoser.
This change make it a totally diffrent game (2-3) compare to preboard. i guess best strategy here is to sculpt to 8 cards vs 7 as they do not have any clock. what strategy do you use? i find it a pain in the ass when they mix Flusterstorm, Canonist and MM combined with their maindeck.

vs UR-delver do ppl bother to board at all?

[davelin]

Haha! Not exactly, Reinier :tongue:

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp

^This is a solid base I play and I know Jamie plays this too. However, the Mire can't find both you're "sideboard"-coloured duals.

That's what I meant. This might be a reason to play the 4th Misty. However, I find myself fetching the basic Swamp pretty often.

I've always wondered why most prefer the Bayou/Badlands/2nd Island over the 9th fetchland. I've been going with a mana base of 9 fetches, 2 basics (swamp and island), 2 seas, 1 volcanic and 1 tropical. The 9th fetch over the Bayou increases the chance to cantrip the first couple of turns and makes 'trips better. Thoughts on this?

[Dia_Bot]

I've always wondered why most prefer the Bayou/Badlands/2nd Island over the 9th fetchland. I've been going with a mana base of 9 fetches, 2 basics (swamp and island), 2 seas, 1 volcanic and 1 tropical. The 9th fetch over the Bayou increases the chance to cantrip the first couple of turns and makes 'trips better. Thoughts on this?

Most people play bayou over the 9th fetch to combat wasteland stripping you of your only green source. It just sucks having to sacrifice petals to get something like carpet of flowers into play because you lost your first green source to a wasteland.

[sawatarix]

exactly.

Having the bayou in the sideboard is also an option but i wouldn't recommend it.Let's play with 15 Cards not 14 ;)

[davelin]

Most people play bayou over the 9th fetch to combat wasteland stripping you of your only green source. It just sucks having to sacrifice petals to get something like carpet of flowers into play because you lost your first green source to a wasteland.

Personally I don't bring in any green SB cards against decks with Wasteland.

[Tom T]

Personally I don't bring in any green SB cards against decks with Wasteland.

If you never play against MUD or Loam decks (or at least, you don't board in Abrupt Decay against them) you can get away with 1 green dual.

[davelin]

If you never play against MUD or Loam decks (or at least, you don't board in Abrupt Decay against them) you can get away with 1 green dual.

Fair enough, haven't played against MUD in awhile but you're right about these MUs.

[JamieW89]

My thoughts on the manabase:
1) How many lands? => 15 is pretty much the resolved answer for the standard ANT builds.
2) How many basics? => Swamp+Island is a given, the 2nd Island is possible (but uncommon now, and I don't like it especially with fewer wastelands around)
3) How many Sea? => 2 Sea is mandatory, I don't like a 3rd but it's playable.
4) How many fetches? => Mainly depends on splashes, I'd gladly play 10 but that would only leave 2 Sea, 2 Basics, 1 Volc. If you plan on casting multiple green spells versus Wasteland decks you need 2 green lands, otherwise one might suffice with a 9th fetch added.
5) Badlands or Bayou? => With only PiF+EtW in the list I prefer Bayou, if you also run a 2nd PiF or sb Pyroclasm or the like Badlands might be better.
6) How many U & B Fetches? => If I have two fetches I'd prefer them to fetch both basics, although I don't want to draw two fetches which do not fetch Island. So for me it's 3x U and 1x B. If I run 10 fetches I'd run 4:2, for 9 I think it's 4:1 but 3:2 might not be terrible either.
7) Which fetches? => 4 Delta are set. Tarn/Misty depending on green/red dependency and then a black fetch which lets you find all colors + swamp (3 Misty, 1 Mire with Bayou or 3 Tarn, 1 Catacombs with Badlands) is what I like in a 3/1 split. 4:0 split is quite clear. I don't like mixing blue fetches since there is only one 4th-color dual and all blue fetches will grab it.
8) SB Lands? => I'd only consider Karakas I think, we can use the sb slots better than a green dual with a 9th fetch main imo.

So I'd arrive at the lists TomT posted above basicly :p.

[Sloshthedark]

Madsk - I dont know if this boarding makes the deck or MU any better looks crazy, Carpet does nothing, XS are most prepared for, -3CR means you wont win fast -pif it wont be from gy so it's AdN only, longer game not particulary protected... 3Ad maybe a xs or 2 for 1cr and preordains seem better

Manabase - Jamie is spot on, cant argue with that but I sb G lands because of diferent nature of my deck, 9th fetch is more precious to me, option to go for 16 lands in stifle+waste MUs or 7 fetchables c omes sometimeshandy

[Madsk]

Madsk - I dont know if this boarding makes the deck or MU any better looks crazy, Carpet does nothing, XS are most prepared for, -3CR means you wont win fast -pif it wont be from gy so it's AdN only, longer game not particulary protected... 3Ad maybe a xs or 2 for 1cr and preordains seem better


Thanks for your reply.

I cant see any reason to have Carpet of Flowers in my sideboard if im not boarding it in vs the deck with most island in play (these games have a tendency to go long). Playing it vs wasteland decks is high risk medium reward as they can often operate on 2-3 islands, and a huge blowout if they counter it and waste you after.

What do you do vs multible hatebears MM, Canonist Thalia etc, do ppl bother to board in Dreads of Night when some of the hatebears is 2/2's? One bear is easy but 2-3 and its game over.

[CabalTherapy]

What do you do vs multible hatebears MM, Canonist Thalia etc, do ppl bother to board in Dreads of Night when some of the hatebears is 2/2's? One bear is easy but 2-3 and its game over.


Excuse me, chief, I might be wrong but...Massacre doesn't care about the amount of hatebears. Right?! :tongue:
Thus, I would always play Massacer > Dread of Night.

[Ricca84]

I cant see any reason to have Carpet of Flowers in my sideboard if im not boarding it in vs the deck with most island in play (these games have a tendency to go long). Playing it vs wasteland decks is high risk medium reward as they can often operate on 2-3 islands, and a huge blowout if they counter it and waste you after.



I don't really agree with this. Carpet is god vs Tempo.decks, in particular Canadian. You can easily avoid tax counter and fix your color screw with only 1 card.
Generally speaking, Miracles is a grindy MU.
The fast comboing plan is worth in G1 where you don't have any answer to C-TOP combo, and Miracles has some bad cards like creature removals (means less counters).
In G2 if you plan to combing fast sideboarding accordly, you cannot win some high density counters hand (flusterstorm comes from SB), so one of the stronger plan is to go in mid-late game, decay balance/hatebears Eot and comboing next turn.
So Carpet is not so good, because in mid-late game vs a deck without wasteland, you have enought lands to provide all the mana you need to win.

Carpet is also very very very good if you plan to natural tendrils using more ToA copies, but for this you need to dedicate some more slot in sideboard.

[Sloshthedark]

Thanks for your reply.

I cant see any reason to have Carpet of Flowers in my sideboard if im not boarding it in vs the deck with most island in play (these games have a tendency to go long). Playing it vs wasteland decks is high risk medium reward as they can often operate on 2-3 islands, and a huge blowout if they counter it and waste you after.

What do you do vs multible hatebears MM, Canonist Thalia etc, do ppl bother to board in Dreads of Night when some of the hatebears is 2/2's? One bear is easy but 2-3 and its game over.

Because vs. Good players you're net 2-4 mana/carpet against a deck that does not play soft counters so you haven't progressed your game or disrupted opp´s game the only advantage gained is not being mana/color screwed if that would otherwise happen and potentionaly pay for flusterstorm which you can just hope for in long game and opp can't play agressively, which is marginal for me... Generaly it's do nothing card opp will stay on fetches eot Clique beat you and will crack just when you have him dead to survive with multiple counters/flusterstorms.. So Íd prefer cards that solve problems.. The card has some application vs. Threshold style decks where every mana is precious and Carpet can be huge boon if it made into play, i personally do not have much positive experience in this case neither bacuse it does not usualy make play early for me and is too late when it does.. Anyway stifle/waste decks are not exactly no.1 choice now is it does not matter

Generaly Massacre is good vs UWR and Deathblade where DoN is embarassing, DoN vs D&T where Massacre can be played around by Karakas and Vial and embarass you... Tough choice, depend what you expect

[GoblinZ]

Because vs. Good players you're net 2-4 mana/carpet against a deck that does not play soft counters so you haven't progressed your game or disrupted opp´s game the only advantage gained is not being mana/color screwed if that would otherwise happen and potentionaly pay for flusterstorm which you can just hope for in long game and opp can't play agressively, which is marginal for me... Generaly it's do nothing card opp will stay on fetches eot Clique beat you and will crack just when you have him dead to survive with multiple counters/flusterstorms.. So Íd prefer cards that solve problems.. The card has some application vs. Threshold style decks where every mana is precious and Carpet can be huge boon if it made into play, i personally do not have much positive experience in this case neither bacuse it does not usualy make play early for me and is too late when it does.. Anyway stifle/waste decks are not exactly no.1 choice now is it does not matter

Generaly Massacre is good vs UWR and Deathblade where DoN is embarassing, DoN vs D&T where Massacre can be played around by Karakas and Vial and embarass you... Tough choice, depend what you expect

This card is indeed very huge against thresh. But given that there are less soft counters in current meta, I totally agree with you that this card is at least not that good now.

[Megadeus]

What match up and why are you guys who are playing 2x Tendrils (1 in board and one main) boarding the second one in? The discard plus deathrite match up?

[davelin]

What match up and why are you guys who are playing 2x Tendrils (1 in board and one main) boarding the second one in? The discard plus deathrite match up?

Miracles, possibly UR delver.

[Chaam]

What match up and why are you guys who are playing 2x Tendrils (1 in board and one main) boarding the second one in? The discard plus deathrite match up?

I asked the same question a few days ago. Just look back like 20-30 posts.

Basically vs. any deck w/ lightning bolt. You side out Ad Naus and bring in Tendrils. So UWR Delver, UR Delver, RUG Delver, UWR Stoneblade, Burn.

You also bring it in over a Preordain vs. miracles just so you are more threat dense.

[Megadeus]

For clarification, I'm playing a lost from a couple pages back, and ad nauseam is in the side. I just can't really imagine any time I'd want more other than a random discard deathrite match up

[Megadeus]

Ripped afb0032's list. Only changed the board up a bit. Deck felt strong. Bolt was an all star out of the board. Delver/DnT people were not expecting it

[davelin]

Ripped afb0032's list. Only changed the board up a bit. Deck felt strong. Bolt was an all star out of the board. Delver/DnT people were not expecting it

Congrats on the finish, mind sharing what matchups you played and how you typically boarded? Did you like the main Empty instead of the AdNaus for the most part?

[CabalTherapy]

Oh, you can't image how I love the 3 Confidants in yesterday's SCG 5th place list. What a juicy tech!
Seriously, c'mon, SCG dudes, you know better.. or not. :cool:

[CabalTherapy]

Oh, you can't image how I love the 3 Confidants in yesterday's SCG 5th place list. What a juicy tech!
Seriously, c'mon, SCG dudes, you know better.. or not. :cool:


Edit: Just realized that it was you, Megadeus. Congratulations. May you elaborate on your SB choices a bit?
Edit: Sry for doublepost. Wanted to edit and not reply. My bad.

Edit3: In round 8 of the Stream in game 1, the dice were not showing the actual mana. Cabal Ritual makes +3 and not +5 mana.

[GoblinZ]

Ripped afb0032's list. Only changed the board up a bit. Deck felt strong. Bolt was an all star out of the board. Delver/DnT people were not expecting it

Congratulations! expecting your report!

I saw your game vs that miracle player. I can't believe he liked holding his fow on hand that much with top and jace online...also his confusing fateseal and his ridiculous reluctance to counter your PIF, which made me laugh...

[.Ix]

Congrats, Megadeus! I'm very glad to see Storm archetypes doing well in the US.

Does anyone else see the irony in SCG listing Megadeus' deck as "Storm", while listing a TES deck as "Ad Nauseam Tendrils"?

[Mastikor]

Well honestly TES really is Ad Nauseam.dec and "ANT" is more like PiF storm.dec but yeah...

[Zombie]

Congrats, Megadeus! I'm very glad to see Storm archetypes doing well in the US.

Does anyone else see the irony in SCG listing Megadeus' deck as "Storm", while listing a TES deck as "Ad Nauseam Tendrils"?

It's accurate though :D

[CabalTherapy]

Edit: Just realized that it was you, Megadeus. Congratulations. May you elaborate on your SB choices a bit?
Edit: Sry for doublepost. Wanted to edit and not reply. My bad.

Edit3: In round 8 of the Stream in game 1, the dice were not showing the actual mana. Cabal Ritual makes +3 and not +5 mana.

Round 8
ANT vs. Miracles
Game 2

Again, two lands were played during the kill turn. Island from top into play and then Delta after Brainstorm.
I am not accusing, just stating the fact.

[testing32]

Round 8
ANT vs. Miracles
Game 2

Again, two lands were played during the kill turn. Island from top into play and then Delta after Brainstorm.
I am not accusing, just stating the fact.

This is why, when playing against ANT or TES, you should also write everything down that your opponent is doing. This happens all the time.

[.Ix]

Well honestly TES really is Ad Nauseam.dec and "ANT" is more like PiF storm.dec but yeah...

Exactly, so it's "historically" wrong but technically more correct. Pretty messed up.

[Lemnear]

Exactly, so it's "historically" wrong but technically more correct. Pretty messed up.

I would label both decks as "storm". No more nicpicking about archetypes between ANT/TNT/TES, no more confusion for new players, no more people taking offense

[nevilshute]

Round 8
ANT vs. Miracles
Game 2

Again, two lands were played during the kill turn. Island from top into play and then Delta after Brainstorm.
I am not accusing, just stating the fact.

Didn't pick this up the first time I watched. Good catch. Was a very long and convoluted turn.

[Megadeus]

Round 8
ANT vs. Miracles
Game 2

Again, two lands were played during the kill turn. Island from top into play and then Delta after Brainstorm.
I am not accusing, just stating the fact.

Oooh wow. Didn't even realize. I remember even explicitly asking the judge if I had played a land that turn or not. Gotta apologize to Farrow. That makes me feel Pretty bad

[afb0032]

Ripped afb0032's list. Only changed the board up a bit. Deck felt strong. Bolt was an all star out of the board. Delver/DnT people were not expecting it

Congratulations on your top 8 finish! Was the dark confidant swap because of an expectation for discard decks?

[Megadeus]

Yeah some sloppy play apparently. This was only the 2nd tourney I had played ANT in (I'm more used to TES and the Rite of Flame math) and the first was the Saturday 4 round trial so I am still getting the hang of adding mana from rituals and such. Haven't played any storm variant at all for at least 6 months so tracking everything in a timely manner gets rough sometimes. Match-ups were:

Burn (W)
Burn (W)
UR Delver (W)
Death and Taxes (W)
UR Treasure Cruise Burn (W)
Maverick (W)
Reanimator (L)
Miracles (W)
RUG (ID)
Sneak and Show (L)

Sb was fine. Like I said, I told my buddy I might want to play storm in the trial for Saturday so I just came on here and saw your list and sent it to him. Saturday I went 3-1 with my only loss coming vs. TnT build of ANT, and I decided to audible from Deadguy for Sunday. I dropped the second tendrils from the board and a Decay and a Xantid Swarm for the Bobs because there were a decent amount of miracles/Jund type decks. I regret dropping the Xantid Swarm because both matches I lost it would have been nice to have a third. The Bolts were amazing. Just using them to kill Delvers to buy a million turns was great because they now have to use their cantrips to find dudes rather than disruption, and also being an instant to eot kill a hate bear was great. People were caught off guard by it definitely. Since I didn't play against any discard decks and only 1 miracles build, I never cast Bob though. Ad Nauseam never got brought it either. Very glad I had empty over it in the main. I didn't use it often, but just having access to it was fine. I misplayed against sneak and show so horrible. I knew he had a sneak attack and lands in hand and I had therapies in the yard. I should have cast dark ritual, cast empty for 4 goblins, then flashed back therapy stripping his sneak attack leaving me with 3 dudes and him with nothing but lands. It was just bad.

[afb0032]

Yeah some sloppy play apparently. This was only the 2nd tourney I had played ANT in (I'm more used to TES and the Rite of Flame math) and the first was the Saturday 4 round trial so I am still getting the hang of adding mana from rituals and such. Haven't played any storm variant at all for at least 6 months so tracking everything in a timely manner gets rough sometimes. Match-ups were:

Burn (W)
Burn (W)
UR Delver (W)
Death and Taxes (W)
UR Treasure Cruise Burn (W)
Maverick (W)
Reanimator (L)
Miracles (W)
RUG (ID)
Sneak and Show (L)

Sb was fine. Like I said, I told my buddy I might want to play storm in the trial for Saturday so I just came on here and saw your list and sent it to him. Saturday I went 3-1 with my only loss coming vs. TnT build of ANT, and I decided to audible from Deadguy for Sunday. I dropped the second tendrils from the board and a Decay and a Xantid Swarm for the Bobs because there were a decent amount of miracles/Jund type decks. I regret dropping the Xantid Swarm because both matches I lost it would have been nice to have a third. The Bolts were amazing. Just using them to kill Delvers to buy a million turns was great because they now have to use their cantrips to find dudes rather than disruption, and also being an instant to eot kill a hate bear was great. People were caught off guard by it definitely. Since I didn't play against any discard decks and only 1 miracles build, I never cast Bob though. Ad Nauseam never got brought it either. Very glad I had empty over it in the main. I didn't use it often, but just having access to it was fine. I misplayed against sneak and show so horrible. I knew he had a sneak attack and lands in hand and I had therapies in the yard. I should have cast dark ritual, cast empty for 4 goblins, then flashed back therapy stripping his sneak attack leaving me with 3 dudes and him with nothing but lands. It was just bad.

It just depends on how you want to play the miracles matchup, I choose to play the slightly slower game with the 3rd AD and 2nd tendrils to be able to mini tendrils or empty (aka always present a follow up winning turn with a smaller storm count). The Xantid swarms are a necessary evil for me, they are so good and so bad all at the same time. Jund is a matchup where I side the ad nauseam in to be able to go off asap or recover quickly after a hymn/multiple thoughtseize in the first couple of turns. Since there are so few discard decks, the switch for it to the board for empty feels right currently. I'm glad bolt did exactly for you what it has for me. Knocking out 1/12 dudes forcing them to dig for buys a lot more time than 1/24 pieces of instant/sorcery type hate. There is also something to be said for the mental game against the opponent since it is such an unorthodox/unexpected play. Interesting line with the multiple therapies and 4 goblins part, I have never had that come up, but will certainly keep it in mind!

[Megadeus]

It just depends on how you want to play the miracles matchup, I choose to play the slightly slower game with the 3rd AD and 2nd tendrils to be able to mini tendrils or empty (aka always present a follow up winning turn with a smaller storm count). The Xantid swarms are a necessary evil for me, they are so good and so bad all at the same time. Jund is a matchup where I side the ad nauseam in to be able to go off asap or recover quickly after a hymn/multiple thoughtseize in the first couple of turns. Since there are so few discard decks, the switch for it to the board for empty feels right currently. I'm glad bolt did exactly for you what it has for me. Knocking out 1/12 dudes forcing them to dig for buys a lot more time than 1/24 pieces of instant/sorcery type hate. There is also something to be said for the mental game against the opponent since it is such an unorthodox/unexpected play. Interesting line with the multiple therapies and 4 goblins part, I have never had that come up, but will certainly keep it in mind!
yeah it was an awkward game in T8. We were the text based featured game so feel free to check it out. I just never drew a hand that had the ability to go off. Yeah I don't know about the decays or not. I can't exactly say with any confidence that I'm an expert on the deck. You know more than I. I'm sure they are fine though. There was a lot of MUD doing well early and I was very nervous I'd have to play against one

[davelin]

Yeah some sloppy play apparently. This was only the 2nd tourney I had played ANT in (I'm more used to TES and the Rite of Flame math) and the first was the Saturday 4 round trial so I am still getting the hang of adding mana from rituals and such. Haven't played any storm variant at all for at least 6 months so tracking everything in a timely manner gets rough sometimes. Match-ups were:

Burn (W)
Burn (W)
UR Delver (W)
Death and Taxes (W)
UR Treasure Cruise Burn (W)
Maverick (W)
Reanimator (L)
Miracles (W)
RUG (ID)
Sneak and Show (L)

Sb was fine. Like I said, I told my buddy I might want to play storm in the trial for Saturday so I just came on here and saw your list and sent it to him. Saturday I went 3-1 with my only loss coming vs. TnT build of ANT, and I decided to audible from Deadguy for Sunday. I dropped the second tendrils from the board and a Decay and a Xantid Swarm for the Bobs because there were a decent amount of miracles/Jund type decks. I regret dropping the Xantid Swarm because both matches I lost it would have been nice to have a third. The Bolts were amazing. Just using them to kill Delvers to buy a million turns was great because they now have to use their cantrips to find dudes rather than disruption, and also being an instant to eot kill a hate bear was great. People were caught off guard by it definitely. Since I didn't play against any discard decks and only 1 miracles build, I never cast Bob though. Ad Nauseam never got brought it either. Very glad I had empty over it in the main. I didn't use it often, but just having access to it was fine. I misplayed against sneak and show so horrible. I knew he had a sneak attack and lands in hand and I had therapies in the yard. I should have cast dark ritual, cast empty for 4 goblins, then flashed back therapy stripping his sneak attack leaving me with 3 dudes and him with nothing but lands. It was just bad.

The Sneak and Show MU seems like one you'd want the AdNaus brought in.

[Sloshthedark]

I would label both decks as "storm". No more nicpicking about archetypes between ANT/TNT/TES, no more confusion for new players, no more people taking offense

This


Round 8
ANT vs. Miracles
Game 2

Again, two lands were played during the kill turn. Island from top into play and then Delta after Brainstorm.
I am not accusing, just stating the fact.

nice one, haven't caught that myself


The Bolts were amazing. Just using them to kill Delvers to buy a million turns was great because they now have to use their cantrips to find dudes rather than disruption, and also being an instant to eot kill a hate bear was great. People were caught off guard by it definitely.

about this time a year ago... it might be very good now but I chose Miracles is more important and do not play it anymore


Congrats on the finish, but now watching the stream I have to say the R8 Miracles match is very painful, I'd have done literally everything in a different way than you G1, you do not respect him randomly hitting a CB is game over and lose win % in a most things you do - starting with fetching up island ending with BSing PIF instead of IT ... g2 is a bit better but opp is just bad and his draws are subpar

+seriously - your deck needs 2nd PiF


The Sneak and Show MU seems like one you'd want the AdNaus brought in.

why? it does not change anything

[Megadeus]

I completely agree. Like I say, this was my second event playing the deck. I didn't even test at all. Just picked it up. I played sloppy, fetched at poor times, and secondly didn't go off when the coast was clear. I was playing very cautiously. First couple turns I was over thinking everything because I knew my games were going to be critiqued by actual storm players. I had to settle down. When I went back and listened to the commentary, I actually laughed when they said something about me being a skilled and experienced pilot. But to someone who doesn't know the deck inside and out, those last turns look impressive enough I suppose

[davelin]

This



nice one, haven't caught that myself



about this time a year ago... it might be very good now but I chose Miracles is more important and do not play it anymore


Congrats on the finish, but now watching the stream I have to say the R8 Miracles match is very painful, I'd have done literally everything in a different way than you G1, you do not respect him randomly hitting a CB is game over and lose win % in a most things you do - starting with fetching up island ending with BSing PIF instead of IT ... g2 is a bit better but opp is just bad and his draws are subpar

+seriously - your deck needs 2nd PiF



why? it does not change anything

Emptying for like 6-8 goblins seems lackluster, AdNaus is a way to win quickly without enough storm, essentially to become faster.

[afb0032]

I completely agree. Like I say, this was my second event playing the deck. I didn't even test at all. Just picked it up. I played sloppy, fetched at poor times, and secondly didn't go off when the coast was clear. I was playing very cautiously. First couple turns I was over thinking everything because I knew my games were going to be critiqued by actual storm players. I had to settle down. When I went back and listened to the commentary, I actually laughed when they said something about me being a skilled and experienced pilot. But to someone who doesn't know the deck inside and out, those last turns look impressive enough I suppose

Watching the miracles video I would have played a lot differently as well, but to each their own. You clearly did something right which shows by your finish.


Emptying for like 6-8 goblins seems lackluster, AdNaus is a way to win quickly without enough storm, essentially to become faster.

True, I prefer to board the 2nd tendrils most times above ad nauseam/empty in the sneak and show matchup, but I can understand others trying to win on the spot or setting up empty to destroy a hand with cabal therapies.

[PhyrexianPossum]

Hey everyone! After playing both Burn and Jund Depths for awhile, I decided I'd like to try a combo deck, and ANT seemed like the most resilient. Here's a pretty simple list I've decided on:


//Artifact (8)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

//Instant (13)
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

//Sorcery (24)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony

//Land (15)
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
1 Swamp

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Silence
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Void Snare
3 Xantid Swarm


The reason for the crappy manabase is that I just can't afford blue duals ATM. I figure these lands are bad, but not that bad, and I can play Silence in the board. Unfortunately, I can't use fetches, which means Brainstorm is worse Should I replace with something worse like Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions?

Otherwise, are there any tips or not-obvious things that I should keep in mind while playing this deck? Thanks!

[Lemnear]

Hey everyone! After playing both Burn and Jund Depths for awhile, I decided I'd like to try a combo deck, and ANT seemed like the most resilient. Here's a pretty simple list I've decided on:


//Artifact (8)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

//Instant (13)
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

//Sorcery (24)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony

//Land (15)
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
1 Swamp

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Silence
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Void Snare
3 Xantid Swarm


The reason for the crappy manabase is that I just can't afford blue duals ATM. I figure these lands are bad, but not that bad, and I can play Silence in the board. Unfortunately, I can't use fetches, which means Brainstorm is worse Should I replace with something worse like Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions?

Otherwise, are there any tips or not-obvious things that I should keep in mind while playing this deck? Thanks!

1) don't play Brainstorm w/o Fetchlands
2) don't play Forbidden Orchard against opposing Therapies
3) don't play I'll-Gotten Gains at all
4) don't play ANT without Past in Flames
5) don't play Basics if you can't fetch for them against Wasteland anyways
6) don't play Ponder without Fetchlands
7) don't play this deck at all if you can't nearly build the manabase (no offense)
8) if you want to play a combo deck w/o duals/Fetches, Belcher is a solid option

[Sloshthedark]

Hey everyone! After playing both Burn and Jund Depths for awhile, I decided I'd like to try a combo deck, and ANT seemed like the most resilient. Here's a pretty simple list I've decided on:


The reason for the crappy manabase is that I just can't afford blue duals ATM. I figure these lands are bad, but not that bad, and I can play Silence in the board. Unfortunately, I can't use fetches, which means Brainstorm is worse Should I replace with something worse like Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions?

Otherwise, are there any tips or not-obvious things that I should keep in mind while playing this deck? Thanks!

no, those ARE THAT BAD, so if this post is meant seriously - there is a serious advice - it does not make any sense playing such list, so don't and save yourself money and time (saving time also applies to Us)

[Megadeus]

I agree. As I have said in the TES thread in the past, storm is not a deck with which you can really afford to play anything less than optimal. In Blade or whatever midrange decks a shock or two or something is fine, but in storm, it is a well oiled machine and screwing with it can have disastrous results for you. I'd either pony up, or look for a different combo deck.

[Dark Ritual]

If you want to run with a manabase like that I would suggest TES as a vastly superior option to ANT circa 2007 or so. Ponder and BS without fetches are going to lose you so many games it isn't even funny. You manage to see infernal tutor with ponder for example but not a critical mass of fast mana. You're waiting quite a while to combo. Brainstorm and brick. Dead as a doornail. And please, for the love of storm, don't play IGG over past in flames. IGG hasn't seen play in quite a while outside SI and even there not everyone plays it because PiF is way better especially when you lack chant effects and the format is more blue heavy than it has ever been currently.

[sawatarix]

I guess this might be a joke, isn't it?

Forbidden Orchard,c'mon dude ;D
Only if Oath of Druids gets unbanned.


I recommend "Opps,All Spells" there you don't even need lands,might be the perfect deck you

(No Offense)

[d0nkey]

I don't know what the no offense is all about.

That list is offensive.

[Lemnear]

I don't know what the no offense is all about.

That list is offensive.

Because it's hard to comment on that list without sounding like an asshole and I'm piling already enough bad karma these days ;)

[Tom T]

Ok. On the Miracles topic, it seems there are 4 ways to fight it post board.

1. +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm
The first is Carsten Kotters way, where you fight with decay overload against Counterbalance and Hatebears. Next to that there is Xantid Swarm for the oops-I-win scenario where the opponent doesn't have a Swords/Terminus in time. A downside is that floating counters can be a problem when there is removal for swarm.

2. +3 Abrupt Decay, +3/4 Young Pyromancer or Dark Confidant, +X Xantid Swarm
The second way is popularised by Kai/Robert and overloads on creatures that win the game. Next to that you'll need some sort of removal against Counterbalance or Hatebears and 3 Decay is the minimum. The Pyromancer plan beats a Swords if played correctly, but doesn't always get there. Next to that the Pyromancer is pretty useless in other matchups nowadays.

3. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +2/3 Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle, +X Xantid Swarm
The same as the first one, however Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle nullify Sensei's Divining Top. Downsides are you can't use your own Top and Pithing Needle or Grip are often a little late as the Top has already granted a counter flooded hand to its controller. Next to that, Pithing Needle can get countered easily

4. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +1/2 Tendrils of Agony, +X Xanted Swarm
This is the reason I adres this topic in the first place. This isn't explored extensively in this thread (or I missed it). Xantid Swarm has the same issues as previously described.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested this and can give me some strategy-tips playing more Tendrils against this deck. Also, how is a second Past in Flames against this deck. Seems great, especially now Miracles is cutting Rest in Peace (Schonnegger 4ponder list)?

[Chaam]

Ok. On the Miracles topic, it seems there are 4 ways to fight it post board.

1. +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm
The first is Carsten Kotters way, where you fight with decay overload against Counterbalance and Hatebears. Next to that there is Xantid Swarm for the oops-I-win scenario where the opponent doesn't have a Swords/Terminus in time. A downside is that floating counters can be a problem when there is removal for swarm.

2. +3 Abrupt Decay, +3/4 Young Pyromancer or Dark Confidant, +X Xantid Swarm
The second way is popularised by Kai/Robert and overloads on creatures that win the game. Next to that you'll need some sort of removal against Counterbalance or Hatebears and 3 Decay is the minimum. The Pyromancer plan beats a Swords if played correctly, but doesn't always get there. Next to that the Pyromancer is pretty useless in other matchups nowadays.

3. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +2/3 Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle, +X Xantid Swarm
The same as the first one, however Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle nullify Sensei's Divining Top. Downsides are you can't use your own Top and Pithing Needle or Grip are often a little late as the Top has already granted a counter flooded hand to its controller. Next to that, Pithing Needle can get countered easily

4. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +1/2 Tendrils of Agony, +X Xanted Swarm
This is the reason I adres this topic in the first place. This isn't explored extensively in this thread (or I missed it). Xantid Swarm has the same issues as previously described.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested this and can give me some strategy-tips playing more Tendrils against this deck. Also, how is a second Past in Flames against this deck. Seems great, especially now Miracles is cutting Rest in Peace (Schonnegger 4ponder list)?

I have been boarding in +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Tendrils of Agony for -1 Preordain, -4 Duress and -3 Cabal Therapy, -2 Lotus Petal.

You basically go on the Grinding Station plan and win once you find decay + swarm. It has been working out fairly well for me. (Although I switch between siding out a 2nd Lotus Petal and a 2nd Preordain but I think having more cantrips postboard is better than having Ad Nauseam being better)

[Sloshthedark]

Ok. On the Miracles topic, it seems there are 4 ways to fight it post board.

1. +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm
The first is Carsten Kotters way, where you fight with decay overload against Counterbalance and Hatebears. Next to that there is Xantid Swarm for the oops-I-win scenario where the opponent doesn't have a Swords/Terminus in time. A downside is that floating counters can be a problem when there is removal for swarm.

2. +3 Abrupt Decay, +3/4 Young Pyromancer or Dark Confidant, +X Xantid Swarm
The second way is popularised by Kai/Robert and overloads on creatures that win the game. Next to that you'll need some sort of removal against Counterbalance or Hatebears and 3 Decay is the minimum. The Pyromancer plan beats a Swords if played correctly, but doesn't always get there. Next to that the Pyromancer is pretty useless in other matchups nowadays.

3. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +2/3 Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle, +X Xantid Swarm
The same as the first one, however Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle nullify Sensei's Divining Top. Downsides are you can't use your own Top and Pithing Needle or Grip are often a little late as the Top has already granted a counter flooded hand to its controller. Next to that, Pithing Needle can get countered easily

4. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +1/2 Tendrils of Agony, +X Xanted Swarm
This is the reason I adres this topic in the first place. This isn't explored extensively in this thread (or I missed it). Xantid Swarm has the same issues as previously described.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested this and can give me some strategy-tips playing more Tendrils against this deck. Also, how is a second Past in Flames against this deck. Seems great, especially now Miracles is cutting Rest in Peace (Schonnegger 4ponder list)?

Your best start is +0 Xantid Swarm, the rest is difficult depends on experience and preference

A, lightweight setup - just X reactive spells like AD - just do your thing asap
B, heavyweight setup - Needle, reactive, 4c spells - doing A worse but ok with long game


I'm on B, 3 Needle, 2AD, 2Pyroblast, Extirpate, AdN, EtW, 2TOA, 2PiF (1 agains RIP esp on draw, could sub for Notion Thief) for specific interaction... for november results - 2:1 RiP, 2:0 RiP, 1:2 4P, 1:2 Rip, 2:1 4P, testing 6:2 in games vs Phillip, both matches I lost were super close against good players who knew I was on Ant... haven't played last 2 weeks but nothing has changed, I believe this is the best setup therefore I'm playing it

[Megadeus]

Swarm seems mediocre against miracles. My match against John I boarded in my decays and Bob's. Swarm just dies to his stuff, especially when I assume that he is keeping in a few terminus to deal with empty (which I had boarded out against him). And swarm doesn't stop CB.

[Lemnear]

I have been boarding in +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Tendrils of Agony for -1 Preordain, -4 Duress and -3 Cabal Therapy, -2 Lotus Petal.

You basically go on the Grinding Station plan and win once you find decay + swarm. It has been working out fairly well for me. (Although I switch between siding out a 2nd Lotus Petal and a 2nd Preordain but I think having more cantrips postboard is better than having Ad Nauseam being better)

You can't seriously advise to remove all discard against a control deck any rely on 3 xantids to beat FoW+Flusterstorm+creature removal+etc.

[sawatarix]

This "unexplored" strategy is called grinding station and it is actually an archetype on its own.
Basically it is Ant with more copies of Stormsspells such as Tendrils of Agony,Empty the Warrens and sometimes also Grapeshot (The first Grinding Station list had 1 Grapeshot to fight creatures if nessecary.)
The reason behind it is that Tendrils of Agony is a Spell which can't get countered by normal countermagic because of it's storm trigger. Instead of chaining rituals into an infernal tutor and hoping for green lights we cast tendrils of agony from our hand which is a really strong play.
Let me summarize which cards can interrupt a tendrils of agony on the stack:
-stifle
-flusterstorm

that's it. You see,this strategy is pretty good in a blue format as it is right now.Force of Will,Daze and Spell Snares are not at their best to interrupt this path.

To execute the combo we need a full grip of 7+1 spells (not lands) in our hand with tendrils of agony,rituals,discard and cantrips among them.
So it takes a couple of turns to assemble such a hand with 3+ lands in play.

Cast the spells in this order: Cantrips -> discard -> rituals -> tendrils of agony

This deck has also some week points, let's name some cards which are good versus grinding station:

-handdisruption in general unless we have access to past in flames

- vendillion clique during the comboturn (bye bye tendrils)

- flusterstorm/stifle/mind break traps,these are our number 1 discard targets

So what does that mean for us and the miracle matchup?
We have infinite time to sculpt the perfect hand with abrupt decay+discard+cantrips/senseis divining top+mana(carpet is great)/rituals+tendrils of agony

but on the other hand our opponent does also what his deck is designed to do: Collect as many counterspells in hand/on top of his library+counterbalance+sometimes hatebears+vendillion Clique.

Finally i can say that it works, go try it out yourself :)

[afb0032]

Ok. On the Miracles topic, it seems there are 4 ways to fight it post board.

4. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +1/2 Tendrils of Agony, +X Xanted Swarm
This is the reason I adres this topic in the first place. This isn't explored extensively in this thread (or I missed it). Xantid Swarm has the same issues as previously described.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested this and can give me some strategy-tips playing more Tendrils against this deck. Also, how is a second Past in Flames against this deck. Seems great, especially now Miracles is cutting Rest in Peace (Schonnegger 4ponder list)?

Number 4 is what I have been using to great success against miracles. I board +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Tendrils for -2 preordain; -2 cabal ritual/1 CR and -1 lotus petal/-2 lotus petal depending on if they are running dig through time and if I expect RIP to be boarded in.

2 Tendrils is enough for me since I also leave in empty the warrens. I am trying to go off with 2 different turns to win. The goal is to fuel enough for a modest storm count (3-7) and still leave a few cards in hand. As others have mentioned it is a technique that was used in grinding station, but this still allows for the deck to function as a normal build in game 1 so that most opponents sideboard in the typical manner.

[Chaam]

You can't seriously advise to remove all discard against a control deck any rely on 3 xantids to beat FoW+Flusterstorm+creature removal+etc.

That actually makes sense. I think my results have just been skewed due to variance and swarm being great when I played it (i.e. they didn't have removal). I probably should just be boarding in 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Tops and a Tendrils for 3 Cabal Therapy, 2 Preordain, 2 Lotus Petal. Possibly only side in the Xantid Swarm in game 3 if I don't see any Terminus/Swords in game 2.

So if most people don't board in Swarm vs Miracles then when do you board in Swarm? Just Sneak & Show and Reanimator?

[afb0032]

So if most people don't board in Swarm vs Miracles then when do you board in Swarm? Just Sneak & Show and Reanimator?

+ Merfolk, and that's usually about it for me.

[Chaam]

+ Merfolk, and that's usually about it for me.

Hmm if that's the case I could probably cut one and add either a 2nd Carpet of Flowers, 3rd Massacre, a singleton Karakas or 3rd Top. Or maybe cut all three and add three/four of those.

I think my new SB is probably going to look something like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Massacre
1 Dread of Night (my LGS doesn't have a 2nd Massacre, so using DoN until I can find one)
1 Karakas
1 Tendrils of Agony

Looks like the 3rd Top is the flex spot though and I probably should just run 2 Massacre/1 Dread of Night instead (once I grab a 2nd Massacre)

Note: I am currently running a standard ANT build with 2 islands, no Bayou, 7 Discard, 3 Preordain.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Swarm seems mediocre against miracles. My match against John I boarded in my decays and Bob's. Swarm just dies to his stuff, especially when I assume that he is keeping in a few terminus to deal with empty (which I had boarded out against him). And swarm doesn't stop CB.

Some number of Swarm is really important against Miracles because they can just float countermagic on top of their deck to beat discard. Miracles and to a lesser extent Sneak and Show are the only reasons to run Swarm in the SB.

[Tom T]

Swarm seems mediocre against miracles. My match against John I boarded in my decays and Bob's. Swarm just dies to his stuff, especially when I assume that he is keeping in a few terminus to deal with empty (which I had boarded out against him). And swarm doesn't stop CB.

Bobs also just die to stuff. If they let Bob live for a turn or two you'll get two cards. If they let Swarm live for just a single turn, you have a pretty decent chance to just win the game right then and there.


+ Merfolk, and that's usually about it for me.

Against Chalice Merfolk, Swarm isn't that great anymore. Next to Chalice, Swarm also doesn't stop Cursecatcher (which they copy with Image by the way). I guess I would only board in 2/3 Abrupt Decay for his Chalices, Grafdiggers' Cage and Null Rod.


Hmm if that's the case I could probably cut one and add either a 2nd Carpet of Flowers, 3rd Massacre, a singleton Karakas or 3rd Top. Or maybe cut all three and add three/four of those.


Xantid is a beast against Reanimator and SneakShow/Omnitell. Carpet isn't good against Miracles (you already board a lot) and UR/UWR Delver (Daze is already laughable). Karakas is bad against Sneak Attack and Omnitell. Also, I think 2 SDT is enough against Miracles/BUG/Jund/Esper.


Some number of Swarm is really important against Miracles because they can just float countermagic on top of their deck to beat discard. Miracles and to a lesser extent Sneak and Show are the only reasons to run Swarm in the SB.

No, Xantid Swarm's main use is for the Reanimator and SneakShow/Omnitell matchups. Being an option against Miracles is just a bonus.


Your best start is +0 Xantid Swarm, the rest is difficult depends on experience and preference

A, lightweight setup - just X reactive spells like AD - just do your thing asap
B, heavyweight setup - Needle, reactive, 4c spells - doing A worse but ok with long game


I'm on B, 3 Needle, 2AD, 2Pyroblast, Extirpate, AdN, EtW, 2TOA, 2PiF (1 agains RIP esp on draw, could sub for Notion Thief) for specific interaction... for november results - 2:1 RiP, 2:0 RiP, 1:2 4P, 1:2 Rip, 2:1 4P, testing 6:2 in games vs Phillip, both matches I lost were super close against good players who knew I was on Ant... haven't played last 2 weeks but nothing has changed, I believe this is the best setup therefore I'm playing it

Which cards or what strategy did the most for you? I didn't test the Pyroblasts, Extirpates or additional Past in Flames but they seem pretty good (especially Pyroblast). Notion Thief makes you vulnerable against creature hate which you normally wouldn't be with this plan (I love that). I don't think having 11 cards in my sideboard for a single matchup is where I want to be; I also want to beat MUD and hatebears.

I tested 3 Decay + 3 Needle/3Empty/3Pyromancer/2Tendrils. My conclusions:
- If Counterbalance lies for 3+ turns, you're in very bad shape. Usually at that rate there is a Clique in play plus countermagic in hand or floating on top.
- Land+Petal+Ritual+EtW is pretty awesome and I think Empty the Warrens is better than Young Pyromancer because it's a more immediate threat.
- Natural (in hand) Tendrils is a pain because it's weak to both Clique and Flusterstorm. Next to that it takes a lot of time to set up and in the meantime Miracles already deploys Countertop. End of turn Decay is pretty bad for your in-hand spell density and makes it harder to generate enough storm.
- Needle didn't make that much of a difference because you still have counterspells and Clique to worry about. Next to that, Snapcaster Mage can also float un-discardable counter magic.
- The most games I won against Miracles are because of Past in Flames (!) and Ad Nauseam. These felt like regular games where you take some of his protection and just go for it. Past in Flames flashback is real though and I won a couple of games just because of that.

I'm pretty upset by this matchup and I might be pretty negative about it. Offcourse there are a lot of noobish Miracles pilots out there, but there has to be a (near) perfect sideboard strategy against this deck.

EDIT: Dutch autocorrect is a bitch haha.
And for reference my list:

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Hurkyl's Recall (can be cut, but only for something that also stops MUD)
1 Pyroclasm (In addition to the Chains and the Massacre that removes Eidolon/Elves. Can be cut.)
3 Slots left

[Sloshthedark]

Which cards or what strategy did the most for you? I didn't test the Pyroblasts, Extirpates or additional Past in Flames but they seem pretty good (especially Pyroblast). Notion Thief makes you vulnerable against creature hate which you normally wouldn't be with this plan (I love that). I don't think having 11 cards in my sideboard for a single matchup is where I want to be; I also want to beat MUD and hatebears.

2PIF - I can't recommend enough but that's a different chapter, EtW was the mwp for me, but still Needle is the key card (shuts down their development, CB acceptable when random), number of counterspells does not matter if the game gets long enough you can beat nearly anything and a single Flusterstorm can be paid for, I like Pyroblast because it's unusual (MM vs UWR) and changes dynamics of many scenarios (like casual onplay T2 CB) answers Clique and Snappy well and has wider MU application (unlike additional AD) in fact I SB 10 cards for the Miracles MU (2AD, 1Krosan Grip, 2 Pyro, AdN, 3 Needle, Extirpate) ... with EtW MUD (I'd never commit a SB card just for this MU, too fringe, very random) and hatebears are better, UWR is a joke w additional removal, D+T is winable without dedicated hate, I find Maverick very unconfortable and Deatblade difficult

I tested 3 Decay + 3 Needle/3Empty/3Pyromancer/2Tendrils. My conclusions:
- If Counterbalance lies for 3+ turns, you're in very bad shape. Usually at that rate there is a Clique in play plus countermagic in hand or floating on top.
depends on the situation, if they SB out EtA time does not matter until you're facing lethal
- Land+Petal+Ritual+EtW is pretty awesome and I think Empty the Warrens is better than Young Pyromancer because it's a more immediate threat.
I also believe so
- Natural (in hand) Tendrils is a pain because it's weak to both Clique and Flusterstorm. Next to that it takes a lot of time to set up and in the meantime Miracles already deploys Countertop. End of turn Decay is pretty bad for your in-hand spell density and makes it harder to generate enough storm.
I do not agree it offers plenty of creative space along with EtW and you can potentionaly ToA them 2,3 times also is you have multiples, with target lifetotal around 16 it should not be that hard
- Needle didn't make that much of a difference because you still have counterspells and Clique to worry about. Next to that, Snapcaster Mage can also float un-discardable counter magic.
this is very preferable scenario, obv. you do not play into it unless you can accomplish something, once you get rid of their hand every other attempt is easier, with Needle out their deck becomes very bad
- The most games I won against Miracles are because of Past in Flames (!) and Ad Nauseam. These felt like regular games where you take some of his protection and just go for it. Past in Flames flashback is real though and I won a couple of games just because of that.
strategy of overloading is very good but after all which actual strategy is doable always depends on what's in your and their hand

I'm pretty upset by this matchup and I might be pretty negative about it. Offcourse there are a lot of noobish Miracles pilots out there, but there has to be a (near) perfect sideboard strategy against this deck.

I think perfect is none, that's why it's difficult MU, playing well is the best prequisite

[Moraxus]

:cool:Attempting My first big event. Trying to "Keep calm and count to ten" grinding station's style (slosh's style). If some relevant impression comes up I'll share it, although probably a " 0-2 please sell your kernel and find another game" are expecting me. Cya

[death]

Hi all, i've been busy lately. I am planning on taking a straight UB list to a small tourney and here's the sideboard i've come up with hoping they are enough to cover everything

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
1 Trapical

What decks do we really need to watch out for right now?

[TrevaBlues]

What decks do we really need to watch out for right now?

faster combo decks.
managing your life total against the aggressive decks. (boarding out Ad Nauseum when it's a liability.)

[death]

Thanks for the heads up. Is it time to splash white and bring out Containment Priests yet?
Reanimator and Sneak Attack are tough matchups because of additional discard and red blasts we need to deal with aside from their countermagic.

[Chaam]

Thanks for the heads up. Is it time to splash white and bring out Containment Priests yet?
Reanimator and Sneak Attack are tough matchups because of additional discard and red blasts we need to deal with aside from their countermagic.

Xantid Swarm is the way to beat those matchups. There are a few lists that play a 1-of Karakas in the board as well for these matchups (and thalia). I have been back and forth cutting the 4th decay for a karakas. I could also see cutting the 3rd Swarm instead for a Karakas.

[death]

But once Griselbrand hits the table our situation gets worse regardless if Karakas is in play once they are able to virtually Ad Nauseam off of him.


So what? They have no clock left, a significant amount of lifepoints less and still just a maximum hand-size of 7. it's not hopeless

Depends. Petal, swing with Emrakul (Sneak Attack) or Exhume a non-legendary or fatty with shroud is still possible after drawing 7/14 cards. Karakas though is still decent.

[Lemnear]

But once Griselbrand hits the table our situation gets worse regardless if Karakas is in play once they are able to virtually Ad Nauseam off of him.

So what? They have no clock left, a significant amount of lifepoints less and still just a maximum hand-size of 7. it's not hopeless

[Chaam]

But once Griselbrand hits the table our situation gets worse regardless if Karakas is in play once they are able to virtually Ad Nauseam off of him.

Back when I did have Karakas in my board. I played a match vs. show and tell where I drew it both times and each time he drew 14 cards at some point. I won both because a) I just natural tendrils him when he had low life. and b) He didn't find sneak attack and I just fought through his 5+ counterspells. They can only kill you with sneak attack once you have Karakas in play and even then it is still difficult since they need both grisel + emrakul.

Vs. reanimator it is even better for you since they don't have sneak attack. They have to win through a non-legendary creature (which clocks you but gives you like 3 turns to win and they will have few resources w/o a griselbrand.

I think I am convincing myself to take out the 4th decay and add back in the Karakas (I guess I could also take out a sb top)

[death]

Let's just hope that decks that can support Containment Priest (D&T, SFM, Miracles) do play the card and we see a decline of S&T-based combo so we don't have to worry about them :laugh:

[sawatarix]

Do me a favour and DONT play a Karakas in your Sideboard.
Even a basic Island is better in that Sideboardslot.

If you want to have tools against those 2 decks i recommend these cards in this order:

Xantid Swarm > Additional Discard > Flusterstorm > Second Ad Ad Nauseam > Basic Island > ...> Karakas.


PS: Basic Island is not a tool against these Deck, I just want to underline how bad Kaakas is because of the beforementioned arguments.

[CabalTherapy]

Let's just hope that decks that can support Containment Priest (D&T, SFM, Miracles) do play the card and we see a decline of S&T-based combo so we don't have to worry about them :laugh:

We shouldn't worry about them because, although Reanimator is not a good MU, SneakShow is at least even or slightly in our favour due to discard and Xantid Bees. It's a fair fight with machine guns.


Do me a favour and DONT play a Karakas in your Sideboard.
Even a basic Island is better in that Sideboardslot.

If you want to have tools against those 2 decks i recommend these cards in this order:

Xantid Swarm > Additional Discard > Flusterstorm > Second Ad Ad Nauseam > Basic Island > ...> Karakas.


PS: Basic Island is not a tool against these Deck, I just want to underline how bad Kaakas is because of the beforementioned arguments.

Sawatatonix hits the spot here. 7 discard spells and 2/3 Xantids are a good starting point to fight these decks.

[death]

I never planned to play Karakas from the beginning since I don't own one. I merely mentioned it was decent since a few were having success with it, decent=mediocre.

My UB list has full sets of Probe, Therapy and 3 Duress, with 3 Swarms on my sideboard so I guess I'm already on point?

[CabalTherapy]

I never planned to play Karakas from the beginning since I don't own one. I merely mentioned it was decent since a few were having success with it, decent=mediocre.

My UB list has full sets of Probe, Therapy and 3 Duress, with 3 Swarms on my sideboard so I guess I'm already on point?

Sure.

[bondfan]

Karakas was very strong against reanimator and terrible against sneak and show. Now that reanimator lists play sire I've cut mine.

[GoblinZ]

Although I never lose a match against storm with sneakshow before, I still think in theory this mu is favorable for storm. Emrakul is far too ineffective and sneak attack usually too slow. This mu really demands skill on both sides.

For karakas, it is just horrible, never consider it....

[phazonmutant]

Karakas was very strong against reanimator and terrible against sneak and show. Now that reanimator lists play sire I've cut mine.

Yeah it was great back when the best Reanimation targets were Jin Gitaxias and Iona. Them days are long gone. Not only is Sire a thing, you're probably losing if they reanimate Griselbrand at all.

[death]

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Echoing Truth Thoughtseize
3 Chain of Vapor Dread of Night
2 Massacre
1 Tropical Island

I changed the 2x Echoing Truth to Defense Grids to shore up matches against UR(x)/UBg where Swarms underperform, before deciding on Thoughtseizes. A good player can play around the artifact much like Carpet of Flowers.

I changed the Chain of Vapors to 3x Dread of Night which is more effective against Thalia/Spirit/Mom all of which need to be dealt with preferably during the kill turn. This is in addition to the Massacres.

-3 Chain of Vapor / +3 Dread of Night
-2 Echoing Truth / +2 Thoughtseize

[Ornament]

I changed the 2x Echoing Truth to Defense Grids to shore up matches against UR(x)/UBg where Swarms underperform, before deciding on Thoughtseizes. A good player can play around the artifact much like Carpet of Flowers.

I changed the Chain of Vapors to 3x Dread of Night which is more effective against Thalia/Spirit/Mom all of which need to be dealt with preferably during the kill turn. This is in addition to the Massacres.

-3 Chain of Vapor / +3 Dread of Night
-2 Echoing Truth / +2 Thoughtseize

I must be missing something. You don't have an out against leyline of sanctity.

[Megadeus]

Is DnT huge in your meta? Honestly, Thalia is annoying but beatable. If it's really a problem you should try out the bolts/pyroclasm. Dread of Night just seems meh to me.

[death]

Good observation. I purposely ommited the Chains of Vapor because the chance of me facing Leyline is almost nil. The format is crawling with hate bears and miracles at the moment, and Burn is off the radar. I have not seen anyone run leylines in a long time. I could squeeze in the Tropical Island main deck, cut a Xantid Swarm and make room for 2, but since I play 2 City of Traitors there's hardly enough room for it. I don't want to risk being mana screwed in case I face a BUG, RUG or MUD.

[death]

Is DnT huge in your meta? Honestly, Thalia is annoying but beatable. If it's really a problem you should try out the bolts/pyroclasm. Dread of Night just seems meh to me.

I think that is where the meta is heading, add Maverick into the mix. I'd run Pyroclasm if I play red. My list is strictly UB, straightforward but less resilient since I don't play PiF. PiF is proven in ANT and I would recommend sticking to it. I just have a different approach.

I have considered Drown in Sorrow as a sweeper but it hurts a lot post-Ad nauseam. Thalia has been a long-time problem for storm, it's Thalia and friends that is concerning.

[Sloshthedark]

I like DoN when D+T is something... I detest Maverick as a MU, If Teeg gets more frequent CoV or declining Sawatarix a favor might be the way as DoN alone is kind of embarassing vs. Maverick, same with Massacre


My list is strictly UB, straightforward but less resilient since I don't play PiF. PiF is proven in ANT and I would recommend sticking to it. I just have a different approach.

Heresy! List, please ; )


=========
Ethersworn Cannonist discussion - ok just saw a Aegis of Gods kill on MODO, lol, I should buy into it

[death]

2 Ad Nauseam, 2 ToA, 2 Chrome Mox, 2 City of Traitors.

Where you guys have PiF, Grim Tutor, Preordains, Volc. Island and a Swamp.

[Lemnear]

2 Ad Nauseam, 2 ToA, 2 Chrome Mox, 2 City of Traitors.

Where you guys have PiF, Grim Tutor, Preordains, Volc. Island and a Swamp.

Basically the 2010 setup as Mystical Tutor was still legal :)

[death]

Nice one! But it does have 4x Probe 4x Therapy though which is tech.

EDIT —
Found the list, it's on page 164/165 of the Old thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)/page164

[Sloshthedark]

nice, reminds me of setup Saito played 2010

no igg is a letdown, I want to play that card again :/

[death]

We're on the opposite.. IGG gives the opponent the chance to replay permission. PiF is strictly better and it is punishing not to have it main deck.

Reason why I don't run it is because Volcanic is off-color and sometimes I find myself with tons of artifact mana with no way to abuse PiF compared to a 2nd copy of Ad Nauseam. There are pros and cons.

[Lemnear]

We're on the opposite.. IGG gives the opponent the chance to replay permission. PiF is strictly better and it is punishing not to have it main deck.

Reason why I don't run it is because Volcanic is off-color and sometimes I find myself with tons of artifact mana with no way to abuse PiF compared to a 2nd copy of Ad Nauseam. There are pros and cons.

In days of Burn and UR Delver, not relying on your life total is a big plus though.

[phazonmutant]

I'm thinking about this as my sideboard (1 Grim, 1 AN main, no Empty, 2 Ponder):

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens

Has anyone had experience playing with 4x Xantid Swarm? I find that against Sneak and Show and Reanimator, I only win if I find one turn 1, which makes me want to play 4. Thoughts?
I expect a fair bit of Miracles for this invitational in the Pacific Northwest, so 4 Decay seems like a must. Against Miracles, what do you think my board plan should be? So far I've been trying:
-1 Duress, -4 Cabal Therapy, -2 Preordain, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Cabal Ritual, +4 Abrupt Decay, +4 Xantid Swarm, +1 Sensei's Divining Top.

Is that overloaded too much on Swarm? Should I bring in Empty? What have your experiences been?

[CabalTherapy]

I'm thinking about this as my sideboard (1 Grim, 1 AN main, no Empty, 2 Ponder):

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens

Has anyone had experience playing with 4x Xantid Swarm? I find that against Sneak and Show and Reanimator, I only win if I find one turn 1, which makes me want to play 4. Thoughts?
I expect a fair bit of Miracles for this invitational in the Pacific Northwest, so 4 Decay seems like a must. Against Miracles, what do you think my board plan should be? So far I've been trying:
-1 Duress, -4 Cabal Therapy, -2 Preordain, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Cabal Ritual, +4 Abrupt Decay, +4 Xantid Swarm, +1 Sensei's Divining Top.

Is that overloaded too much on Swarm? Should I bring in Empty? What have your experiences been?

(You certainly mean, 2 Preordain.)

I don't have experience with 4 Swarms but I have some with 2 which is my favourite number. Sneaky is weak to discard and, although Reanimator is a tough MU, I wouldn't want to weaken my main too much. Flusterstorm is a nice card here, too + 1 Extirpate. But if it works for you than it is definately fine.
Against Miracles: Sure, the more Storm spells the better. I don't play Empty anymore as I find this card to be simply to weak and useless against a wide range of decks. The main EtW is better than the SB one but let's leave this aside. I wouldn't recommend boarding whole playsets from the main as Cabal Therapy is still alive and valid in game 2/3. I have the feeling that Lotus Petal is a card which is not powerful enough to fight against Miracles where a speed boost is not needed because ANT brings in slower/reactive cards such as Decay.

[Togores]

If you guys wanna kill tegg even if there is a mother of runes there.
may be this is the answer.
also its nuts vs infect.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=114911

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=114911&type=card

[Sloshthedark]

I'm thinking about this as my sideboard (1 Grim, 1 AN main, no Empty, 2 Ponder):

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens

Has anyone had experience playing with 4x Xantid Swarm? I find that against Sneak and Show and Reanimator, I only win if I find one turn 1, which makes me want to play 4. Thoughts?
I expect a fair bit of Miracles for this invitational in the Pacific Northwest, so 4 Decay seems like a must. Against Miracles, what do you think my board plan should be? So far I've been trying:
-1 Duress, -4 Cabal Therapy, -2 Preordain, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Cabal Ritual, +4 Abrupt Decay, +4 Xantid Swarm, +1 Sensei's Divining Top.

Is that overloaded too much on Swarm? Should I bring in Empty? What have your experiences been?

Agree with Robert on lp, I dont like XS vs Miracles because everyone is prepared for creatures postboard nowadays, trading XS for removal feels dumb (Id play needle instead and a grip instead of 4th ad), if you play it anyway then I'd sb out every duress before a therapy, in your case Id opt for +EtW +3xs +4ad +sdt -cr -2 preordain -ponder - gp -2lp -1duress = 61 in case of 60 cut another lp

Since Ad nauseam is just a draw spell lp is weakest card and there is plenty of time, EtW is excelent imo (won me both post sb games yesterday T1 and Txx)

[nevilshute]

The only time, realistically, I want more than 2 swarms in my board is when two conditions are satisfied at the same time:

1) Show and Tell decks are seeing a lot of play

and

2) Show and Tell pilots are playing 3+ Leyline of Sanctity on avarage.

Atm neither are fulfilled. And even if they were I think 4 Xantid Swarm is incorrect. 3 would be my number. As the format is atm, I'm perfectly happy to have 2 sitting in my sideboard for when I occasionally run into a non-leylined show and tell deck.

Against non-leylined Show and Tell decks they are really just a trumph. Usually discard is fine. If they do have the White leyline swarm is imperative, but even then they might just mull into oblivion looking for it.

The reason I'd never want 4 is that it is a dead sideboard card against the majority of the field. You might want to side in 1-2 against Miracles. People will argue for and against that, but never 4 imo. Other than that you'd only want them against narrow decks like High Tide and Merfolk.

Also... Lightning Bolts are literally everywhere right now... :smile:

[sawatarix]

+1 on the comments above from Nevilshute,Slosh and Robert.

One sidenote:
Depending on my gutfeeling i sometimes board Xantid Swarms against Tempodecks in G3 if i haven't seen removal spells in G2.
Always try to next level them ;)

[d0nkey]

Sudden shock is severely underplayed in my opinion.

[Sloshthedark]

Sudden shock is severely underplayed in my opinion.

2 dmg is fine 2 mana is not, still playable but not exciting

[Surfinbird]

Hey!

Tomorrow i'll go to the finals of the catalan league of legacy (35 players more or less) and after studying the meta and knowing that it will be like 25% combo (15% show and tell, 10% others) 20% miracles 30% delver/blade variants 10% Thalia decks 5-10% chalice decks, 5-10% others

I'm running the deck with 7 discard spells (4 therapys), 2 preordains and a Grim tutor. No SDT in maindeck (i'd like no play it, but i can't fn room for it). The sideboard is this one:

3 Xantid Swarm
3 abrupt decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Sensei's divining top
2 chain of vapor
1 massacre
1 pyroclasm
1 empty the warrens

I'm think that with the 25% of the meta being combo i should play 2 flusterstorm in the sideboard, probably in the place of 1 krosan and 1 Xantid (fluster=good against all combos, xantid=fantastic against show and tell), not sure about this one.

The prizes are: tropical island for the top8, 2 bayous for the top4, 2 seas for the top2 and 2 seas and a tundra for the winner.

I need you to take the best decision about the flustter question, i'll tell you the results!

[Megadeus]

2 dmg is fine 2 mana is not, still playable but not exciting

Agreed. It's definitely a great effect, but costing three under Thalia is no bueno

[Sloshthedark]

watching invitational replay - Jim Davis fucks up R5G2 with Ant, more interestingly the Opp - predicted B splash (CT, Extraction) in UR incomming, I just really hope Donegan gets totaly wrecked today otherwise darker times might be ahead of us

[Ghiwo]

Hi everyone :smile: I'm coming back after a period where I've been busy with university exams, so I've lacked time to test updated sideboard options. Anyway, this week I'll prepare for a medium tournament next sunday, I really miss counting to ten. That's why I'm asking you some help to start from with my testing, since I had no time to try anything. Anyway, I followed the format and I clearly know what the tier decks are at the moment :tongue:

How was Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard? I saw a match from sawatarix on cockatrice this week, he was playing against Miracles, and I thought that Carpet was doing his job quite good. Also, the match pretty much clarified me how we must play vs. that deck!
Also, did Carpet do a good job vs. UR Delver? Was it meant to enter the deck also in that particular match-up, or am I just wrong?

Another tier deck I faced a lot in my few cockatrice game in UWR Stoneblade-Pyromancer, or Patriot as I still call it. There are some different lists I understood, but I didn't study them carefully. Brian Braun Duin's list was really a StoneBlade, with Stoneforge, Nemesis and so on, but there were also some lists with a more aggro plan. The match-up was tricky. It seems easy, since they have just Fows and sometimes Daze or a couple Spell Pierces, and I often found them uncovered, but you need to hurry up sculpting your hand, because they have REBs that are annoying on cantrips and when they set up a board presence with Pyromancer + Tokens or B-skull + Stoneforge and Nemesis they give you just a couple turns clock. That should not be a problem, but combining with REBs could sometimes end up in their favor. That's why I really liked my Top!
I was boarding-in CoVs, Massacre for sure, and thinking about bringing in my second Top. How do you board against this deck? And what do you think about the match-up, am I wrong?

Last question: is Flusterstorm still valuable in this meta? It covers us from combo decks that are always present, but it seems me that right now they're a small part of the field. In particular I saw Show.decks become less and less popular, am I wrong? I could keep them because I hate losing to Renimator, but I would drop 'em if I'll find more valuable cards. Those could be Carpets, or others, I don't know.


watching invitational replay - Jim David fucks up R5G2 with Ant, more interestingly the Opp - predicted B splash (CT, Extraction) in UR incomming, I just really hope Donegan gets totaly wrecked today otherwise darker times might be ahead of us

I noticed that too! Owen Turtenwald was playing a list with a Sea and 4 Cabal Therapy in the board. That could be annoying since Pyromancer+CT+Gitaxian Probe is literally mindtwisting our hand. Add REBs to hit counters, and that's quite bad for us. They also have a really fast clock to end up the game. I think we should play 2 ways: or a fast way, trying to end the match in the first 3 turns where cabal therapy is less relevant and they have less ways to draw it in combination with pyromancer, or we can play the control role, with decays, tops, pyroclasm and additional Tendrils.. I don't know, what do you think about that?

[Sloshthedark]

could you elaborate? I can't see how is Carpet benefitial in that MU it's a wasted slot where slots are precious imo

It's logical step that was sure will come as the original deck is very soft to combo, I recall there was a splash B list very early after TC but few picked that up, most notable there was some Scg top 8/2 few weeks ago, I think the MU just becomes simply horrible if SE joins CT ... Winning fast is reasonable vs CT but definitely makes things a lot tougher, the days you laugh at their 2 flusterstorm 2 Cage might end... My hope is that these tendencies get dismissed because of relative nothing these card do in majority of important MUs - uwr, miracles, mirror especially, it should play out this way i think, but i'm no expert at creature crossMUs and deck construction ... I'm just a bit worried it becomes a legitimate choice for mediocre netdecking mass for some time, combohaters first

[L-Luck]

could you elaborate? I can't see how is Carpet benefitial in that MU it's a wasted slot where slots are precious imo

It's logical step that was sure will come as the original deck is very soft to combo, I recall there was a splash B list very early after TC but few picked that up, most notable there was some Scg top 8/2 few weeks ago, I think the MU just becomes simply horrible if SE joins CT ... Winning fast is reasonable vs CT but definitely makes things a lot tougher, the days you laugh at their 2 flusterstorm 2 Cage might end... My hope is that these tendencies get dismissed because of relative nothing these card do in majority of important MUs - uwr, miracles, mirror especially, it should play out this way i think, but i'm no expert at creature crossMUs and deck construction ... I'm just a bit worried it becomes a legitimate choice for mediocre netdecking mass for some time, combohaters first

Make no mistake, Cabal Therapy is insane against the non Wasteland Stoneforge decks. Four Slots and a slightly weakened manabase to turn combo from unfavourable to favourable and making Stoneforge Mystic laughable is a fine trade, 250 bucks for sideboard options maybe not so much for the broad masses.

[sawatarix]

Young Pyromancer + Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy ?
Sounds like Ant 2014 ;D
Pretty annoying to play through since they have a fast clock and discard/counter. Past in Flames is the way to go for sure.

Carpet of Flowers has been a tool to fight taxing counter such as daze,spell pierce and flusterstorms (Storm1-2)
It is not totally nessecary but i recommend it because it helps you a lot against those tempodecks without having headaches.See it as an upgrade to lotus peal/cabal ritual.

[Ghiwo]

could you elaborate? I can't see how is Carpet benefitial in that MU it's a wasted slot where slots are precious imo

Which MU are you talking about? Miracles: Carpet is good if the plan is to follow the natural tendrils route, it gives us tons of mana. UR Delver: I don't know if it's beneficial, I was asking it! :tongue:

sawatarix: yeah, it seems :tongue: more seriously, I agree that PIF is golden vs. therapy + race, I was thinking about an additional PIF in the board, I'll try to test it. Talking about Carpet, are you bringing it in also vs. UR?

[CabalTherapy]

Just came back from the Berlin Legacy league final. I went for the 1st place after the whole year of playing. (almost exclusively ANT of course)
The final tournament was decent with the Top16 (only 11 attended).

Rounds were:
2:0 UR Delver (game2 mulligan to 5: protected 2nd turn kill)
2:1 UWR BBD's list (City of Solitude wins)
2:1 Team America with Sifle
1:2 Reanimator (managed to go off via PiF against Griselbrand and Sire of Insanity in play: one mana short for the save kill, Ponder shows nothing, GG)
#2 place in the tournament and #1 place in the league

SB was:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Massacre
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Extirpate
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 City of Solitude

[death]

Congratulations on the finish bruh. Btw, when you said mulligan to 5, protected 2nd turn kill against UR, did you actually bring in bees against burn?

City of Solitude shuts off everything blue, better than Carpet of Flowers and Defense Grids. The casting cost though..

[Sloshthedark]

Young Pyromancer + Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy ?
Sounds like Ant 2014 ;D
Pretty annoying to play through since they have a fast clock and discard/counter. Past in Flames is the way to go for sure.


and here comes Surgical Extraction as a nail to the coffin, free spells + Pyromancer +CT +DRS was really the worse in previous meta


Which MU are you talking about? Miracles: Carpet is good if the plan is to follow the natural tendrils route, it gives us tons of mana. UR Delver: I don't know if it's beneficial, I was asking it! :tongue:

sawatarix: yeah, it seems :tongue: more seriously, I agree that PIF is golden vs. therapy + race, I was thinking about an additional PIF in the board, I'll try to test it. Talking about Carpet, are you bringing it in also vs. UR?
was aiming on Miracles - can't see it value in it, it does nothing until the kill turn when you have loads of mana anyway, get about the same mana as CR but without the stormcount, it's so situational and not even good on it's own... ok if 4 Toa, x Carpet is the plan it could work but these card do nothing at all the other MUs
UR - no it operates on 1-2 land +fetches just fine, fast clock, just Daze, no wasteland, no thanks I'd rather cast a cantrip


Just came back from the Berlin Legacy league final.

Congrats! nice job with the City... but Venser? you seriously need more Karakas ;)

[CabalTherapy]

Congratulations on the finish bruh. Btw, when you said mulligan to 5, protected 2nd turn kill against UR, did you actually bring in bees against burn?

Thanks.
Nope. Certainly not. I went for Ad after one Ponder/Probe.





Congrats! nice job with the City... but Venser? you seriously need more Karakas ;)

Thank you, Martin. I love Venser and I was sure that I don't want to play more Xantids or Carpet. = Vensy

[Sloshthedark]

Thank you, Martin. I love Venser and I was sure that I don't want to play more Xantids or Carpet. = Vensy

ok, a bit... wild... should be a perk of some sort to Venser+ToA someone

[Ghiwo]

Just came back from the Berlin Legacy league final. I went for the 1st place after the whole year of playing. (almost exclusively ANT of course)
The final tournament was decent with the Top16 (only 11 attended).

Rounds were:
2:0 UR Delver (game2 mulligan to 5: protected 2nd turn kill)
2:1 UWR BBD's list (City of Solitude wins)
2:1 Team America with Sifle
1:2 Reanimator (managed to go off via PiF against Griselbrand and Sire of Insanity in play: one mana short for the save kill, Ponder shows nothing, GG)
#2 place in the tournament and #1 place in the league

SB was:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Massacre
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Extirpate
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 City of Solitude

Hi! First of all my best congratulations for the result! Can I ask you something? Your sideboard seems really interesting to me, I would like to understand your choices :smile:
The first thing is: you have 2 Tops, do you also have one maindeck?
And, is City of Solitude really needed in the UWR BBD match-up? I usually found they did not have so many counters, what am I missing?
And, last one, I am stupid, but I can't understand the use of Venser, other than bouncing things when Show and Tell is played :frown: Could you explain me a little when is it good and against which decks do you board it in?

Thanks really a lot!

@Sloshthedark: I'm not really sure about Carpet, as I didn't test them due to a lack of time. I was only saying my impressions after watching Kai play on cockatrice. If you say they're not good I trust you, and I'll save my time to test other cards! Thanks a lot! :smile:

[jbrodster]

When do we board in surgical extraction? I noticed Jim Davis has 2 in his sideboard. Combo decks like snt, mirror, sure. But what other decks is it worthwhile against?

[Megadeus]

Congrats to phazonmutant on being the only 8-0 in legacy with ANT. Too bad standard is a thing

[sawatarix]

Wow, 3/8 of the scg inviational top 8 play storm as their deck of choice for legacy.
Good to see that and as the people say, the metagame is good storm right now.

What's also interesting is that 2/3 stormplayers have a second copy of ad nauseam in the sideboard for extra speed.
As you know i even played 2 Ad Nauseam in the main during Bazaar of Moxen 8 but then the maindeck has to be adjusted: I highly recommend additional fast mana to power out ad nauseam from your hand asap. Chrome Mox ( and Rain of Filth) do their job quite well for early blowouts.
While this configuration worked well for me in the past i wouldn't play it now in such a format with blazing fast delver decks and more decks with burn as their removal instead of abrupt decay.

instead i moved more to a grinding station deck with sideboard double ad nauseam which is pretty well positioned.
Thank you both Martins (Slosh and Nevilshute)
for providing me with enough information about additional past in flames and tendrils of agony.
There is a big end of year
tournament in germany and here is the deck i will bring to fight:

Grinding Station.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/23864

[Sloshthedark]

@Sloshthedark: I'm not really sure about Carpet, as I didn't test them due to a lack of time. I was only saying my impressions after watching Kai play on cockatrice. If you say they're not good I trust you, and I'll save my time to test other cards! Thanks a lot! :smile:
That's fine I was wondering why you were impressed, It's a more of a question for sawatarix - which plan he has and how it plays out, for me Carpet both in theory and practice failed in the past


When do we board in surgical extraction? I noticed Jim Davis has 2 in his sideboard. Combo decks like snt, mirror, sure. But what other decks is it worthwhile against?
someone should tell him Ad Nauseam is an instant first... SE = Ant, Dredge, All Spells, Reanimator for early interaction... Extirpate is better imo due to wider application


Congrats to phazonmutant on being the only 8-0 in legacy with ANT. Too bad standard is a thing
Congrats, I wonder if the source discussion was of any help... also Patrunkenphat7 7-1, the metagame is right


Grinding Station.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/23864
Thanks, looks fine, would recommend EtW>3rd Toa and squeezing in 4th Ct somehow... but you probably know that already ; ) I guess Mr. Wagner will be there so you won't be alone Grinding, I'm not coming, christmas holiday have different plans for me... I have high hopes reading your name in the coverage though :)

[CabalTherapy]

Hi! First of all my best congratulations for the result! Can I ask you something? Your sideboard seems really interesting to me, I would like to understand your choices :smile:
The first thing is: you have 2 Tops, do you also have one maindeck?
And, is City of Solitude really needed in the UWR BBD match-up? I usually found they did not have so many counters, what am I missing?
And, last one, I am stupid, but I can't understand the use of Venser, other than bouncing things when Show and Tell is played :frown: Could you explain me a little when is it good and against which decks do you board it in?

Thanks really a lot!


I don't play Top in the main. That's right. < Grim Tutor
City of Solitude is really nice against Miracles and this new UWR because they don't pressure ANT to go off quickly and that is where City shines.
No, I guess you're not stupid. I was sure that I don't need more serious cards in my SB so Venser, who is good against SnT and Miracles, was my 15th card of choice. He does little but I played him in two tournaments before and won both. Thus, I have thought that his karma would help provide another win. :cool:


Wow, 3/8 of the scg inviational top 8 play storm as their deck of choice for legacy.
Good to see that and as the people say, the metagame is good storm right now.


I think we all knew that already and I am not so happy seeing these guys slamming their Rituals because I don't want a greater focus on this deck. If fewer people play this deck then only few people know how to play against it or something like that... At least no Confidants in the lists.

[Sloshthedark]

I think we all knew that already and I am not so happy seeing these guys slamming their Rituals because I don't want a greater focus on this deck. If fewer people play this deck then only few people know how to play against it or something like that... At least no Confidants in the lists.

True... 5-2/5-3 should not be that appealing, but 8-0, 7-1 and 5/14 decklists is ... Storm has decent difficulty settings set to discourage new wave of players fast into temporary effect but relevance of the deck in deckbuilding subconsciousness is no good, imo most damage has been done on Modo already

[sawatarix]

@carpet of flowers:

As i mentioned earlier, carpet is an upgrade for petals or cabal rituals. You have the opportunity to reach storm 10 with very few rituals.
recently i played against a delver deck with a carpet on the field and had 7 mana available on my first mainphase which was awesome because i started to chain cantrips to reach lethal storm (of course there were also few rituals/petals and discard involved.

Another game i played against jeskai Delver and i started with bayou -> carpet. Guess what my opponent did:
Fetchland go until turn 5 when all his softcounters were dead while i was chaining cantrips to build a perfect hand. Then he was forced to crack all his fetchlands to deploy a creature or at least do something proactive. I untapped and started my mainphase with 9 mana in my pool. Isn't it awesome?
People do crazy things if they face a carpet ;D

[P-E]

Congratz phazon 8-0 in leg strong result ^^

[Togores]

How was Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard? I saw a match from sawatarix on cockatrice this week, he was playing against Miracles, and I thought that Carpet was doing his job quite good. Also, the match pretty much clarified me how we must play vs. that deck!




U randomlly went to watch him on cockatrice or does he was streaming on twitch or so?
I it was on twitch, what username was it?

[sawatarix]

I play a lot on cockatrice,my account name is sawatarix obviously ;)

[phazonmutant]

Congrats, I wonder if the source discussion was of any help... also Patrunkenphat7 7-1, the metagame is right

Thanks! It was, sorry I didn't reply earlier. It looks like people try out different plans, but the overarching theme is to keep the opponent guessing.

It felt awesome to go 8-0 in the invitational! I ended up winning 11 matches in a row this weekend before my brain just melted down round 4 of the 5k and I lost 3 in a row. I liked my list quite a bit, thanks for your inputs, especially regarding Swarm and Decay. I'll give some brief thoughts on my list:.
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

// Sideboard
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Extirpate
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony

The maindeck is pretty stock. I got Surgicaled on Infernal Tutor once in the ANT mirror, so having Grim there was great. I could definitely see a second Past in Flames being better though, I didn't cast it besides that.
I was loving the second Tendrils all tournament - boarded it in a bunch of matchups. I boarded in all the cards at least once, and having the Swarms was great.

A quick rundown of matchups:
R5 - Shardless BUG. I had a sweet line where I was dead on board facing double Goyf and Lili, she had 2 cards in hand, and I had Island and Top in play (I'd been bricking on lands and/or black sources all game). I drew for turn, played Petal, got Forced. If it didn't, I could Cabal Ritual. If that didn't get Forced, I could Therapy for Force. Anyway, the Petal got Forced, so I played 3 LEDs, flipped Top for Tutor, and tutor chained for lethal. Sometimes Top sucks, and other times it's the best ever :D
R6 - UG Cloudpost
R7 - Shardless Bant. I saw Top game 1 so boarded for Counterbalance, but he didn't even have it. I won through Relic.
R8 - Mono-U Omnitell. He kept a hand with 3 Forces, 2 Digs, and 2 Islands. He drew into Show and Tell for Omniscience before I could discard all the Forces, Dug, Pondered, Impulsed, and bricked. I ground through 2 Forces and a Pact over the next 2 turns and managed to win. I got suuuuper lucky.
R13 - Burn
R14 - Koby playing Maverick. He locked me out game 1 on turn 2, but mulliganned to death game 2 and I mulliganned but drew 2 Dread of Nights to kill his Teeg and Qasali Pridemage while he was tapped out. Very unfortunate we got paired. :cry:
R15 - ANT. He had 2 Surgicals and they seemed great in this matchup. Having protection that doesn't cost mana is a huge boost, and you can use it proactively too. We both got reasonable but unexceptional hands, but I won the die roll.
R16 - Justin Uppal playing UR Delver. He said that if we drew one of us probably would get 33d, which turned out to be quite wrong. He offered the split, which I obviously declined. I was rewarded for my principles by winning off an Ad Nauseam from 8 with lethal on board, and then a turn 1 after he mulliganned.

Then in the 5k:
R1 UR Burn 2-0
R2 Merfolk (with 2 Chalices in the board...). I won through Relic when he tapped out to Stifle a fetch. 2-0
R3 Miracles. He got a game loss and then I turn 1'd him with protection. 3-0
R4 Elves 0-2. Super frustrating game 1 where I kept on drawing lands and couldn't get hellbent. Lost to a mull to 5 and anemic beats. Game 2 I think I was tilted and kept a no-lander with Ad Nauseam. Bricked.
R5 Elves 0-2. I used the old trick of Brainstorming Ad Nauseam back and use LED and a cantrip to play it. However I bricked from 17 with a land drop and B floating. G2 I was facing down a Deathrite with Tendrils in hand. I was nervous about getting it discarded and made a mistake in my Past in Flames math - I should have passed the turn.
R6 RUG Delver 1-2. Game 1 I mulliganned into a hand with no blue sources for Preordain but a Petal, and got it Dazed for no good reason. I drew well and ground through his Forces, and set up a win with Past in Flames with lethal on board. He had one unknown in hand and I didn't bother to check what it was before casting Tendrils. Turns out it was Stifle. Oops. Game 2 he had a beatdown draw and Forced a Therapy pitching Force. I had to decide to go for it and run into Daze or Surgical. I pushed and he had nothing. Game 3 I went for a turn 2 Empty for 10 tokens, but he double Dazed and Flusterstormed so I only got 4. I got him to 10 and rebuilt. Tutor resolved against like 3 unknown cards and I had to decide between Tendrils or Past in Flames. In retrospect it's obviously PiF because if he counters it I can flash it back and Stifle isn't live, but went for Tendrils and he had Stifle. Lost before I could rebuild again. I dropped because I clearly had lost the ability to think clearly.

So storm seems well positioned, but I found playing magic to be pretty difficult around the 19th round of the weekend. I would definitely recommend my list, it was pretty great all day. I'm going to be writing an article for a smaller content site, I'll let you guys know when it's live!

[Togores]

great result!

What against u sided the empty from all your match ups?
how did they feel?

[sawatarix]

Thx for the report.
0:4 against Elves sounds really weird but as you said, sometimes we loose because of our greedy keeps or our deck which refused to cooperate with us.

[Patrunkenphat7]

First of all, phazon is a beast. Second, I just want to share my matchups at the Invi:

W 2-0 Stoneblade
W 2-0 BUG Delver (Tenjum)
W 2-1 Elves w/ Ruric Thar main (lost game 1 to turn 2 Ruric Thar)
W 2-0 Jund Loam
W 2-1 Grixis Countertop w/ Painter Combo (really hard to win; he ran Thoughteizes, Countertop, Forces, Flusters, and a turn 5ish combo kill)
W 2-0 UR Delver (Gerry T)
L 1-2 Burn (Turn 2 Eidolon games 1 and 3, 1 life away from Decaying it and killing him in game 3)
W 2-1 Dredge (he had Leyline of the Voids in the SB)

I'm still running my 2 Grim Tutor, 2 Past in Flames, Empty main, Ad Nauseam SB list, and I still love it. Also more results with Storm on Sunday were I went 0-1 drop in the IQ so I could watch my friends in the Invitational top 8 (lost to BUG Delver), and then I went 4-0 in the Legacy challenge beating my friend Phil Braverman on Miracles, 2 Enchantress decks, and Dredge.

[davelin]

First of all, phazon is a beast. Second, I just want to share my matchups at the Invi:

W 2-0 Stoneblade
W 2-0 BUG Delver (Tenjum)
W 2-1 Elves w/ Ruric Thar main (lost game 1 to turn 2 Ruric Thar)
W 2-0 Jund Loam
W 2-1 Grixis Countertop w/ Painter Combo (really hard to win; he ran Thoughteizes, Countertop, Forces, Flusters, and a turn 5ish combo kill)
W 2-0 UR Delver (Gerry T)
L 1-2 Burn (Turn 2 Eidolon games 1 and 3, 1 life away from Decaying it and killing him in game 3)
W 2-1 Dredge (he had Leyline of the Voids in the SB)

I'm still running my 2 Grim Tutor, 2 Past in Flames, Empty main, Ad Nauseam SB list, and I still love it. Also more results with Storm on Sunday were I went 0-1 drop in the IQ so I could watch my friends in the Invitational top 8 (lost to BUG Delver), and then I went 4-0 in the Legacy challenge beating my friend Phil Braverman on Miracles, 2 Enchantress decks, and Dredge.

For you (or anyone) who is running AdNaus in the side, do you find yourself bringing itself in pretty often just because any deck can bring in GY-hate such as Cage, Relic or even Tormod's Crypt?

[ThomasDowd]

Wow, 3/8 of the scg inviational top 8 play storm as their deck of choice for legacy.
Good to see that and as the people say, the metagame is good storm right now.



I wouldn't put that much weight on a split format tournament.

[nevilshute]

For you (or anyone) who is running AdNaus in the side, do you find yourself bringing itself in pretty often just because any deck can bring in GY-hate such as Cage, Relic or even Tormod's Crypt?

When I run the "grinding station" version of the deck, with AN in the sideboard, I usually only side it in against other combo decks or against discard heavy strategies like Pox. I will often bring out 1 of the 2 Past in Flames for games 2 and 3 as I expect them to bring in gy hate.

AN can also be powerful against thalia.deck but if I'm running this version I often like to run Massacres in the board as well and don't want to be casting AN into double or tripple Massacres + empty + tendrils + pif.

So, no, not very often. Except for against other combo decks where it's a no-brain swap for Empty, most of the time.

[nevilshute]

By the by... having been a bit away from storming, I'm back running Grinding Station online... so, 2x tendrils, 2x pif, 1x empty, 1x grim in the main. AN in the side.

I'm trying out a singleton Treasure Cruise in the main and one in the sideboard... have people tried this? So far (just 3-4 games) it's a bit awkward with PiF, but undoubtedly powerful.

[Sloshthedark]

By the by... having been a bit away from storming, I'm back running Grinding Station online... so, 2x tendrils, 2x pif, 1x empty, 1x grim in the main. AN in the side.

I'm trying out a singleton Treasure Cruise in the main and one in the sideboard... have people tried this? So far (just 3-4 games) it's a bit awkward with PiF, but undoubtedly powerful.

Hope to see your list soon, I'll probably buy into modo after banlist update depending on the changes if some

TC - no it's bad in theory and draw 3 -7 in gy leaves you negative on cards if we count gy as a 0,5 draw 3 is not very exciting under this circumstances, draw 5 is often very bad off ad nauseam and the resource investment is similar or worse imo. I think caleb durwards Pif brews in both legacy and vintage videos proven TC unimpressive in pif centric deck... obv it could be good in slow uw based midrange/ control, but those splash R, having no important targets for pyroblast is very good now

Ad nauseam - as stated above very few in this kind of list its just for Elves, Miracles, discard+GY hate like jund abd some combo, I personaly leave etw mirror and other combo outside elves on draw and include Adn vs team america

[nevilshute]

Well, I take your points, but will try it out a bit. It's basically in the spot of a Sensei's Divining Top or the 7th discard spell. Both of which might prove to be superior.

I think it's potentially good in the Grinding Station build, not least, due to playing 3x storm cards in the main. At that point drawing 3 can be pretty filthy and I think you might be underappreciating what that's worth. However, I've yet to learn (and now mtgo is down for maintenance so I won't get to try again until tomorrow) how much of a non-starter the non-bo with PiF and Cab Rit really is. I think we would be happy exiling Petals, Diamonds and lands all day. Cantrips and discards less so, but still should be fine. We basically don't want to lose our rituals and business spells to delve. I was able to sequence it in one game so that I went dark rit, cab rit (thresh), then treasure cruise (no longer thresh) then draw into the win.

[philo4079]

Dear stormers, has anybody already tested Trygon Predator as one-of SB tech against miracle /Mud ?
They're talking about it in the TES thread.

I have a big event this weekend, and I plan to test it, unless somebody gives a bad feedback before :-p

[Royce Walter]

Dear stormers, has anybody already tested Trygon Predator as one-of SB tech against miracle /Mud ?
They're talking about it in the TES thread.

I have a big event this weekend, and I plan to test it, unless somebody gives a bad feedback before :-p

If Miracles wasn't going to have 3+ Pyroblasts postboard this might be a good idea. As is, I can only see this being profitable against Chalice decks, so I think I'd rather just have a Hurkyl's Recall

[philo4079]

If Miracles wasn't going to have 3+ Pyroblasts postboard this might be a good idea. As is, I can only see this being profitable against Chalice decks, so I think I'd rather just have a Hurkyl's Recall

Well.. that's a good argument. :laugh:

[grmpytopdecker]

Am I correct in assuming that the point of the Grinding Station builds is to not just go for one big Tendrils / Empty the Warrens but go for two smaller ones?

[wonderPreaux]

Am I correct in assuming that the point of the Grinding Station builds is to not just go for one big Tendrils / Empty the Warrens but go for two smaller ones?

2 PiF means its often easy to just go for a PiF loop into a big Tendrils. Having a PiF + LED + Tutor is often a bit better then that standard Tutor + LED because it can beat a single hard counter. Small EtW/Tendrils with a followup Tendrils IS a robust option (one that can make the Bolt/Cruise decks relatively easier), but you're also able to draw to 8, do some cantripping or whatever, play a Dark Ritual or two and just flop a Tendrils from your hand, which is a great move against control.

One thing that's kept me off Grinding Station lately is a greater density of GY hate, some decks even maining Relics or Nihil Spellbomb, most siding Graffdiggers or the like. Running discard out early to try an hit the hate cards isn't effective as it conflicts with drawing to 8 and plays right into Digs/Cruises. For those playing the Grinding variant, do you just side in Decays more and go down to 1 PiF?

[Sloshthedark]

At that point drawing 3 can be pretty filthy and I think you might be underappreciating what that's worth..

It might and I can imagine such situations but lands and artifacts are often not the case, I feel like 3 random cards are not that exciting at the cost because you usualy care about specific (type) of card you're missing, not handsize and notably the cardmass in Ant is both hand and gy unlike other decks, I can see how imba it could be relueling the hand, but the problem is relative unreliablity in common gameplay situations, so I think filtering fx of SDT might be better majority of time, but if you make it work I'll be happy to try it out... (in Calebs vids it looked like winmore in win situations or burning bridges and spinning a wheel of fortune if losing, to give him credit it was good for him above expectations but I would hold onto it repeatedly, overall watching vintage superleague vids players often prefered to get rid of valuable cards in the gy fast for a boost of 3 random cards, in YagWill decks, which I feel is wrong, and PiF is Ant's YagWill - therefore my skepticism) I could imagine TC being great in something running multiple EtW or in style of Belcher or SI

Trygon - thought about it preTC, I love the card but even then even if it was 1BG it's borderline playable as a SB strategy - doesn't have immidiate Fx, Miracle players are prepared for postSB creatures already, stops Top just halfway, dies to Clique accomplishing nothing, low application in other MUs - mostly obscure ones... Post TC - Pyroblast everywhere


For those playing the Grinding variant, do you just side in Decays more and go down to 1 PiF?

Haven't played against Losset Miracles but Relic in UR/UWR is a common SB strategy in our LGS so I bring 2 Pithing Needle or 2 AD 1 CoV if uncertain on hate for UR, 2AD covers it for me vs UWR, double ToA is most preferable option, other than that I did not feel like there is more hate localy, Modo might be totaly different ... 1 Pif only w Ad Nauseam outside of Miracles, they exile 1st I grab the 2nd

[wonderPreaux]

Haven't played against Losset Miracles but Relic in UR/UWR is a common SB strategy in our LGS so I bring 2 Pithing Needle or 2 AD 1 CoV if uncertain on hate for UR, 2AD covers it for me vs UWR, double ToA is most preferable option, other than that I did not feel like there is more hate localy, Modo might be totaly different ... 1 Pif only w Ad Nauseam outside of Miracles, they exile 1st I grab the 2nd

So, for UWr, your boarding would be something like 2 Decay + 2 Massacre, for instance? And for URx Delver, on MODO at least, Cage is about as popular as Relic/Nihil since Cage can also curb Elves, so maybe Decay is worth it again, idk about Chain of Vapor these days since there are so many Pyroblasts floating around.

[Sloshthedark]

So, for UWr, your boarding would be something like 2 Decay + 2 Massacre, for instance? And for URx Delver, on MODO at least, Cage is about as popular as Relic/Nihil since Cage can also curb Elves, so maybe Decay is worth it again, idk about Chain of Vapor these days since there are so many Pyroblasts floating around.

UWR - 2 AD, 2 Massacre, 2 Pyroblast
UR - 2AD, Trop, CoV // 2 Needle, 1 Pyroblast

CoV is not optimal but I don't have other relevant cards

[kkkant]

Ive been testing the grinding station variant (just as sawatarix posted it) and it seemed really good to me. It can be a little bit slower, but its more inevitable and having 3 ToA maindeck means you dont suffer as much versus delver decks, sometimes a tendrils for 5 means 1 or 2 timewalks, not to mention they dont have any way to recover the life loss.

I wonder if there is any chance to fit a maindeck chain of vapor, which could excell at gaining us some turns (or bouncing teegs), and it doesnt hurt the combo that much since you can always use it to generate extra storm bouncing our own artifacts.

[phazonmutant]

I wrote an article about Storm and going 8-0 at the invi, Article Discussion thread is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28956-Article-Stormy-in-Seatown&p=856491#post856491

Let me know what you think!

[ghost_tmd]

I wrote an article about Storm and going 8-0 at the invi, Article Discussion thread is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28956-Article-Stormy-in-Seatown&p=856491#post856491



Let me know what you think!

greta article man. keep the good work

[Togores]

I wrote an article about Storm and going 8-0 at the invi, Article Discussion thread is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28956-Article-Stormy-in-Seatown&p=856491#post856491

Let me know what you think!

Great thing buddy!
Would have liked to be more directed to stormers and not to so general target. But still great!

[sawatarix]

@phazonmutant: well written,like a short mini primer with a matchup analysis. I like it.




@kkkant: Good to hear that it works fine for you. Well, there have been many suggestions for removal spells even in the maindeck, lightning bolt and chain of vapour among them. To be honest i don't think that we need those because in G1 there are not that many really problematic permanents we care about.
Even then, we have discard to strip let's say Green Sun's Zenith on turn 2 or we can try to combo out before those permanents become relevant.
I'm generally not a fan of Lightning Bolting a Delver of Secrets to buy time. This Lightning bolt should rather be another ritual or a cantrip which helps me to execute my combo as fast and save as possible.
If there is removal for 1 mana that says: 'kill a dude + draw a card' i would think about maindecking it but as it isn't i'm not interested in wasting maindeck slots for cards that have nothing to do with the combo itself. It's ok if my burn opponent has a eidolon in g1 because postboard the matchup turns really in our favor.

[nevilshute]

So, just checking back in to say, that so far Treasure Cruise has been a disappointment. Exactly like slosh predicted it doesn't feel like the right fit at all.

Twice I drew absolute garbage (3 lands; 2 lands + duress).... not a nice way to spend a Sunday afternoon :wink:

I've been testing it for aproximately 7-8 matches, so by no means at all thoroughly, but I'm done. It hasn't worked out once and it feels wrong.

[afb0032]

I wrote an article about Storm and going 8-0 at the invi, Article Discussion thread is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28956-Article-Stormy-in-Seatown&p=856491#post856491

Let me know what you think!

Very well written article, love the personal touch stories/reasoning. I look forward to reading more in the future.

[Ornament]

I wrote an article about Storm and going 8-0 at the invi, Article Discussion thread is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28956-Article-Stormy-in-Seatown&p=856491#post856491


Let me know what you think!

Wonderful article. An eye opening read for a nooby stormy :).

[.Ix]

After going 1-3 last time losing to Monoblack, Elves, and MUD, I went 3-1 today losing to Pox and beating Miracles, UR Delver, and UWR BBD.dec. I'm still on Togores' list.

Round 1 - Pox
G1 I mull to 5 keeping something like Ritual, LED, LED, land, land. I drop the artifact mana and never get in the game. He smallpoxes my lands and when I get the Infernal Tutor I only have 2 LEDs and 1 land left.
G2 He drops T0 LOTV, but I have a decent hand that can Ad nauseam if i get some more mana. He plays Pack Rat and quickly shuts off that plan. I lose.

Round 2 UR Delver
G1 He aggros me down to 7 life, I cast Tendrils from my hand to get myself back to 19 keeping an IT in hand with LED in play. Next turn I cast discard and IT for PIF FTW.

SB -1 AN +1 Tendrils -2 Therapy -1 Island +3 Decay
G2 He is very confident after playing some creatures and casting 1 tormod's crypt and 2 Grafdigger's Cage. I Tendrils him from hand again, and next turn I IT for the other Tendrils and kill him.

Round 3 Miracles
G1 I Duress his CB, he has a Brainstorm and nothing else. He brainstorms into a CB and plays it. I play a petal and it blindflips an Island. Knowing he still has nothing in hand, I cast a Ritual. He flips a land and it resolves. I cast another Ritual, he fetches and flips a FOW. I cast everything and tutor for PIF for the kill.

SB -2 cabal ritual -2 cabal therapy -2 probe -2 petal -1 island -1 preordain
+3 decay +3 xantid +1 grip +1 Tendrils +2 extirpate

G2 He plays land and passes. I duress, he brainstorms. I get to take something useless. I played petal and cracked it to play Xantid. He plays the CB that he hid with brainstorm. I swing with Xantid, play a Top and he declines to trigger the CB. we keep playing draw-go until he entreats for 1 just to block a Xantid (I had one in hand anyway so it didn't matter...) but I just play draw go as well. Then EOT I decay the CB, swing my bees into his angel, and go off. Turns out he boarded out all his removal. :D

Round 4 UWR with no delver or Wasteland
G1 He mulls to 5 and has a terrible hand. I go off against his hand of crap and kill him.

SB -2 Therapy -2 probe -1 Ad Nauseam -1 island +2 Massacre +3 Decay +1 tendrils

G2 I mull to 6 and keep a hand with 2 decays, a Therapy, a Sensei, and mana. He probes me and sighs at the two decays. He plays a land and passes. I play a land and pass. He plays a land and passes. I draw another therapy and cast it. He pierces, I pay, and he pierces again. I read double force in his hand. He plays pyromancer and passes. I play therapy, he forces. I play sensei, he thinks hard. It resolves. I spin into a hand+top deck of Dark Ritual, Cabal ritual x2, Infernal, LED, and PIF.

Dark ritual, Cabal Ritual, cabal ritual, PIF (Forced), LED, IT, crack LED for RRR, tutor for Cabal Ritual, Flashback PIF for the kill.

I love this deck.

I think I need the third Sensei in the board because of all the grinding I keep having to do around here. I would love to have 3 against Mono black decks, miracles, esperblade, even stompy (T1 sensei is pretty good on the play). My meta is so random. I had Flusterstorm for the longest time but never boarded it in. Hurkyl's Recall is for the random MUD and Stompy players I always seem to run into. There's also this guy who ALWAYS has Chalice and I don't want to lose to that.

[CabalTherapy]

After going 1-3 last time losing to Monoblack, Elves, and MUD, I went 3-1 today losing to Pox and beating Miracles, UR Delver, and UWR BBD.dec. I'm still on Togores' list.

Round 1 - Pox
G1 I mull to 5 keeping something like Ritual, LED, LED, land, land. I drop the artifact mana and never get in the game. He smallpoxes my lands and when I get the Infernal Tutor I only have 2 LEDs and 1 land left.
G2 He drops T0 LOTV, but I have a decent hand that can Ad nauseam if i get some more mana. He plays Pack Rat and quickly shuts off that plan. I lose.

Round 2 UR Delver
G1 He aggros me down to 7 life, I cast Tendrils from my hand to get myself back to 19 keeping an IT in hand with LED in play. Next turn I cast discard and IT for PIF FTW.

SB -1 AN +1 Tendrils -2 Therapy -1 Island +3 Decay
G2 He is very confident after playing some creatures and casting 1 tormod's crypt and 2 Grafdigger's Cage. I Tendrils him from hand again, and next turn I IT for the other Tendrils and kill him.

Round 3 Miracles
G1 I Duress his CB, he has a Brainstorm and nothing else. He brainstorms into a CB and plays it. I play a petal and it blindflips an Island. Knowing he still has nothing in hand, I cast a Ritual. He flips a land and it resolves. I cast another Ritual, he fetches and flips a FOW. I cast everything and tutor for PIF for the kill.

SB -2 cabal ritual -2 cabal therapy -2 probe -2 petal -1 island -1 preordain
+3 decay +3 xantid +1 grip +1 Tendrils +2 extirpate

G2 He plays land and passes. I duress, he brainstorms. I get to take something useless. I played petal and cracked it to play Xantid. He plays the CB that he hid with brainstorm. I swing with Xantid, play a Top and he declines to trigger the CB. we keep playing draw-go until he entreats for 1 just to block a Xantid (I had one in hand anyway so it didn't matter...) but I just play draw go as well. Then EOT I decay the CB, swing my bees into his angel, and go off. Turns out he boarded out all his removal. :D

Round 4 UWR with no delver or Wasteland
G1 He mulls to 5 and has a terrible hand. I go off against his hand of crap and kill him.

SB -2 Therapy -2 probe -1 Ad Nauseam -1 island +2 Massacre +3 Decay +1 tendrils

G2 I mull to 6 and keep a hand with 2 decays, a Therapy, a Sensei, and mana. He probes me and sighs at the two decays. He plays a land and passes. I play a land and pass. He plays a land and passes. I draw another therapy and cast it. He pierces, I pay, and he pierces again. I read double force in his hand. He plays pyromancer and passes. I play therapy, he forces. I play sensei, he thinks hard. It resolves. I spin into a hand+top deck of Dark Ritual, Cabal ritual x2, Infernal, LED, and PIF.

Dark ritual, Cabal Ritual, cabal ritual, PIF (Forced), LED, IT, crack LED for RRR, tutor for Cabal Ritual, Flashback PIF for the kill.

I love this deck.

I think I need the third Sensei in the board because of all the grinding I keep having to do around here. I would love to have 3 against Mono black decks, miracles, esperblade, even stompy (T1 sensei is pretty good on the play). My meta is so random. I had Flusterstorm for the longest time but never boarded it in. Hurkyl's Recall is for the random MUD and Stompy players I always seem to run into. There's also this guy who ALWAYS has Chalice and I don't want to lose to that.

Congratulations on your improvement.
Nevertheless, I think that you have boarded too heavy against UR and UWR. One might also argue about Xantid Swarm against Miracles which I don't bring in in this particular MU. I prefer City of Solitude here which is a bomb against BBD UWR, too.
I am sure that Decay is too slow, weak and useless in these MUs. Especially as they bring in stronger counterspells like Flusterstorm, you are boarding Therapies out... In addition, you state that you have won with Tendrils from your hand thus making Decay > 'random gravehate permanent' useless. CoV/Massacre hit Meddling Kids, too. Also I would go with Chain of Vapor against UR / UWR because it can hit everything and costs only U. Ad Nauseam is a card I don't board out against UR or UWR because I love to win fast and don't care about my opponent's deck or potential damage output. At the Berlin league finals I won on a mulligan to 5 against UR via 2nd turn Ad Nauseam and smashed BBD UWR with Cities.

[GoblinZ]

Congratulations on your improvement.
Nevertheless, I think that you have boarded too heavy against UR and UWR. One might also argue about Xantid Swarm against Miracles which I don't bring in in this particular MU. I prefer City of Solitude here which is a bomb against BBD UWR, too.
I am sure that Decay is too slow, weak and useless in these MUs. Especially as they bring in stronger counterspells like Flusterstorm, you are boarding Therapies out... In addition, you state that you have won with Tendrils from your hand thus making Decay > 'random gravehate permanent' useless. CoV/Massacre hit Meddling Kids, too. Also I would go with Chain of Vapor against UR / UWR because it can hit everything and costs only U. Ad Nauseam is a card I don't board out against UR or UWR because I love to win fast and don't care about my opponent's deck or potential damage output. At the Berlin league finals I won on a mulligan to 5 against UR via 2nd turn Ad Nauseam and smashed BBD UWR with Cities.

I don't like boarding out therapy and probe too often either...

I am not sure if CoV is better than decay in ur or uwr mu. There is a decent possibility that they board in extra pyroblast, which is actually mediocre against us. I don't want my CoV eating a blast.

Also, I will cut AdN on the draw against UR and may consider bringing it back if on the play.

city of solitude is absolutely much better than swarm in miracle mu. I believe any experienced miracle player will leave some removals post board, but bring in swarm if there is no other choice. Also, swarm is better than City of Solitude against reanimator or SNT, I really worried that reanimator would regain its popularity in the near future so I will always leave 3 swarm in my sb.

[CabalTherapy]

city of solitude is absolutely much better than swarm in miracle mu. I believe any experienced miracle player will leave some removals post board, but bring in swarm if there is no other choice. Also, swarm is better than City of Solitude against reanimator or SNT, I really worried that reanimator would regain its popularity in the near future so I will always leave 3 swarm in my sb.

True. Therefore I play:

3 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
3 City of Solitude (played with 2, now with the third)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Extirpate
1 Massacre
2 Xantid Swarm

[GoblinZ]

True. Therefore I play:

3 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
3 City of Solitude (played with 2, now with the third)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Extirpate
1 Massacre
2 Xantid Swarm

do you side in extirpate against miracle?

[Togores]

Great finish!
Right now I also cutted the flusters for 2 krossan grip. If there us no heavy on combo i dont but them back in.
I dont like so much city. Because it gets pierced so easy. I also dislike xantid vs miracles. Only board then in if i dont see removal.
I do agree with putting in xantids instead of therapys vs miracles but i would never board out discard vs a blue control deck.

And usualy i board in decays vs ur. They are 100% good. They dont play mana denial. So we can cast them. And also they have really low count of pressure. And board some out. So decaying a delver or a cage is huge.

I usualy board out
-1 nauseam -1 preordain -2 sensei -2 petal
+3 decay +2 carpet +1 tendrills

And I have only lost 1 time to them (with a sb of 3 cages, 3 fluster 2 envelope)

I think is a really easy matchup.

[CabalTherapy]

do you side in extirpate against miracle?

Of course.

[.Ix]

Congratulations on your improvement.
Nevertheless, I think that you have boarded too heavy against UR and UWR. One might also argue about Xantid Swarm against Miracles which I don't bring in in this particular MU. I prefer City of Solitude here which is a bomb against BBD UWR, too.
I am sure that Decay is too slow, weak and useless in these MUs. Especially as they bring in stronger counterspells like Flusterstorm, you are boarding Therapies out... In addition, you state that you have won with Tendrils from your hand thus making Decay > 'random gravehate permanent' useless. CoV/Massacre hit Meddling Kids, too. Also I would go with Chain of Vapor against UR / UWR because it can hit everything and costs only U. Ad Nauseam is a card I don't board out against UR or UWR because I love to win fast and don't care about my opponent's deck or potential damage output. At the Berlin league finals I won on a mulligan to 5 against UR via 2nd turn Ad Nauseam and smashed BBD UWR with Cities.

Thanks for all the good advice. I brought in Xantid vs Miracles because I was sure he would board out all the removal. He had very little experience with the matchup, and neither did I, but I knew him as a player and I was just sure he would do that. It was a very risky read but it worked out perfectly.

Regarding UR and UWR BBD:

I'm not very confident in this deck's ability to go off with turn 2 AN because it's running 2x Sensei and no Grim Tutor. It's pretty slow and grindy, so I think -1 AN +1 Tendrils is much better here. I figure decay helps buy a lot of turns against their few creatures (and I did decay a pyromancer, forcing him to play into his Swiftspear and making it very obvious that he was holding a FOW). If I can force them to keep spending mana on finding and playing creatures, I gain a lot of time and create a lot more opportunities to go off. Also, I think I actually removed 2 Sensei, and not 2 probes against UR. I didn't really take notes.

I had never played the UWR BBD.dec matchup before and I really had no idea where I was going with it. I agree that I shouldn't have boarded out Therapies or Probes, but Decay seemed really solid. It beats Meddling Mage no questions asked (Unless the Mage is naming Decay, of course) and could buy a lot of time like in the UR matchup. I had to grind pretty hard, and Decaying the Pyromancer in our game 2 bought me maybe 4 turns of spinning the Top. Of course that's just one game, so it's not enough evidence of Decay being good or better than Chain. City of Solitude sounds very good, though. Might just have to get me some of those.

I'm actually 16-4 with ANT here so far, and I'm really loving it. It's a very interesting deck with so many choices to make in almost every single turn. It's also really fun to crush people who think you autolose to their blue deck.

[CabalTherapy]

I'm actually 16-4 with ANT here so far, and I'm really loving it. It's a very interesting deck with so many choices to make in almost every single turn. It's also really fun to crush people who think you autolose to their blue deck.

Apparently there are still some of these individuals out there... ^^


I might try Decay against UR / UWR BBD. It certainly provide a lot of time when destroying the opponent's clock, similar to L. Bolt but with the ability to destroy Cage and other shit as well.
Keep on stormin'.

[kkkant]

Well, finally, after almost a year playing nauseam, i pulled out my first good result at a mayor tournament ("mayor" means 50 people, which here in Argentina was the record of asistance for a legacy tournament this half of the year)

I used sawatarixs Grinding Station.dec with only 2 changes in the 75 (1 empty the warrens main instead of the 3rd ToA and a tropical island instead of the bayou), and natural tendrils was the mvp of the tournament all day long. After starting up 0-1-1, i managed to get into the top8 with 4-1-1 and wining top 8 and top 4, then spliting the finals.I will try to recall all the games here.

Round 1 - Miracles
G1 I know what my opponent was playing, so i kept a little slow hand but with some disruption. I Duress hime turn 1 and only took a counterspell (he had 1 sword 1 terminus 1 entreat and some lands), but after some turns of grinding, all i got was a short storm for tendrils, and since he had already a top on play i decided to go for the warrens since he had already used a bs and saw the terminus in his hand again. Warrens for 12 tokens did it for me that game.
G2 i was not sure how to side, so i played with 1 ad nauseam, 1 PiF, and only 1 tendrils, no warrens. I made a big mistake playing a natural tendrils for 5, then discarding a PIF with my tutor to search for ad nauseam which was absolutely useless since that very turn i tried to cast past in flames which got countered, which left me without any chance to win that game. There were 4 minutes left on the round and he was on no position to kill me any time sooner, but since we were pals i put my card together as soon as the pif got countered, and ended up tying on game 3.

Round 2 - UR Delver
Well, game 1 i go off very quickly and he had no counters in hand (i think i saw it with a probe), no questions asked
Game 2 i left the 2 pif and 2 tendrils, siding out warrens, a cabal ritual and a lotus petal for 2 carpet of flowers and a couple CoV
I dont recall very much of this game, besides my opponent playing really bad and i being quite mad for not being able to overcome his 3 topdecks (a fow to counter my pif and then a daze to counter my first ritual after flashbacking pif game 2, and a fow after sawing his hand with 2 daze game 3)

Round 3 - Esper Miracles
Odd version of miracles, playing jace, stoneforge, clique, elspeth, thoughtseize, and of course counterspells and counter-top.
I won the roll, and since i knew my opponent was playing miracles and he did not knew my deck, i started underground sea go, into polluted delta braistorm, then duress to see Clique, Stoneforge, Jace, Counterspell, Elspeth and a land. I took out counterspell, next turn tried to combo with pif (in hand) and got FoW'd. Next turn i go off again flashbacking pif.
I sided in 2 carpet of flowers, 1 nauseam, 1 chrome mox and i think some xantids, i took out empty the warrens, 1 tendrils and 1 pif again i think, and 2 cabal ritual for the carpets.
Game 2 my hand is cabal ritual, gitaxian probe, duress, LED, Ad Nauseam, U Sea and Ponder he starts with t1 top, I go duress and see Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, and a couple of dead cards. Took the Seize in order to protect AN. Next turn he inquisitioned my ponder. Then i go off turn 2 by playing gitaxian into gitaxian, double lotus petal thus getting threshold for cabal ritual, and going off with a pretty generous ad nauseam.

Round 4 - UWR Stoneblade
Game 1 i managed to resolve a top and dig a lot, getting his hand without any counterspells but without finding any bussiness. He passed the turn with 2 pyromancers and like 6 tokens (lethal), so i decided to go for it. I spinned the top and saw nothing, having only 1 fetchland in play, so i played dark ritual - cabal ritual - cabal ritual - led - led, cracked the fetch and spinned the top to see a infernal tutor. Talk about adrenaline.
Figuring he would side in rest in peace and some graveyard hate (which didnt happen) i sided out 1 tendrils, 1 empty the warrens, and 1 pif, to make room for 1 ad nauseam, chrome mox, 2 or 3 decays and 2 carpets.
Game 2 he leads with a turn 2 meddling mage ToA (not the best choice imo but won him the game), then a pyromancer. I managed to pull an AN on turn 3 but couldnt get enough mana to decay and then pif, so it was game for him.
Game 3 my hand was a tendrils and some rituals. After deigging a little bit more with no discard and a top on play i was looking at letal, so i started gitaxian probe, triple ritual, led led, brainstorm (which got fowed leaving him without counters and no bs), into natural tendrils (he was at 17).

Round 5 - GW Post (mono g post but with some cards i didnt see coming in the sb such as gaddock teeg and rip)
Game 1 he did not have much to do. I discarded some acceleration and then comfortably comboed.
Sided in ad nauseam and took 1 pif 1 toa i think, dont recall very much of the sb except ad nauseam and CoV.
Game 2 he managed to get a rip in play, after some grinding i was looking at the combo in my hand (tutor chain) and he had which i thought were 3 known cards in the hand (i forgot to cross out a land, and he had drawn an unknown card for the turn). So i asked him "i know your 3 cards, right?" -yes. Ok, so i went off making storm of 10 + ToA. When i play the tendrils he asked me "how much damage is it?" i answer without thinking 20, thinking he had nothing to do. He responded with crop rotation for glimmerpost going to 1. After he resolved the crop rot i counted the storm again and realised it was 22 dmg, but i wasnt smart enough to call a judge and blamed it on my anciousness and got really upset.
Game 3 he starts with leyline of sanctity and i go off with and early empty the warrens he coulndt resolve.

Round 6 -Food Chain - Great, win and in and one fine matchup for me.
Game 1 i won the roll with duress, led, 2 rituals, 2 lands and a gitaxian probe. I duress and took out manipulate fate, leaving him with 2 lands, 1 hierarch, 2 shardless agents and a venser. He played trop island for hierarch go. I draw a petal, gitaxian probe and draw a past in flames, well this could work. I saw he draw the food chain. Turn 2 hi plays chain, exiles hierarch for GG, plays hierarch, exiles hierarch for UU and plays a shardless cascading a shaman. Fuck.
Turn 3 i draw a land and pass the turn. He draws, plays a shardless agent, and attacked with shardless and shaman (...). I drew another gitaxian, ,saw nothing and figured i had to go for it now or never, so i played Pif (which got bounced by vencer), played it again into double gitaxian but only drawing a ritual and a LED. GG for him
Game 2 i sided in 2 carpets 2 xantids and a couple decays (i knew he was playing chalice of the void on sb). I start turn 1 gitaxian, seeing only a flusterstorm for counter, so played xantid swarm and turn 2 carpet of flowers. Going off from there was pretty easy.
Game 3 i had the gut i had to go all the way with ad nauseam so i sided out 1 tendrils 1 warrens and 2 pif. It payed off well, since on turn 2 i went Led, Led, Lotus Petal -> Cabal ritual (no thresh), Ponder (cracking a led in response) and drew the AN i saw last turn with another ponder. Ad Nauseam in 19 with a mana floating and a led, without him having any counters. Nothing left to say haha.

Top8!
Round 1 - Monored Sneak Attack AKA The Horror.
Played with a close friend of mine who managed to get 3 straight top8s (and a 2nd place) at 3 major tournaments with the very same deck.
4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Blood Moon and the abilitiy to go off on turn 1 wasnt very promising for me.
I lost the roll, so after a lot of thinking he starts mountain chalice x=0, after one or two turns, he managed to get a blood moon and then a chalice for 1 next turn (i think turn 4), but no combo for him. After he resolved the moon i recalled i had a basic swamp second from top from a ponder last turn (before chalice) leaving me with: Led, Cabal Rit, Cabal Rit, Dark Rit, ToA, ToA and 4 basic mountains. I passed the turn, he passed the turn, played the swamp and did led (countered), cabal rit -no thres, BBB, Dark Rit (countered) BB, Cabal rit-threshold, BBBBB, and double tendrils for 22. The expression on his face was priceless.
I sided in the nauseams in order to get some speed, and in a mistake sided out all discards for 3 decays and a Grip
Game 2 he goes turn 1 chalice for 1 (i had 1 dark rit 2 ponder and a bs in my hand), then trinispher, then blood moon, then combo. OK GG.
Game 3 i sided in the discards again, but didnt really needed them since i went off turn 2 without him having nothing to do (besides comboing next turn).

Round 2 - UWR Stoneforge with Counterbalance.
I won the roll, saw his hand with a bs, ponder, SFM and counterbalance. By turn 2 i had an empty the warrens, led, infernal tutor, dark ritual and brainstorm, i brainstoemd and saw the petal so i left the ToA and the tutor on top, played ritual led petal into empty the warrens for 12 (dont recall the other spell, i think a SDT) leaving me with an infernal tutor and a cabal ritual in my hand and another tutor and a ToA in my top. This forced him to all in in the SFM plan, compromising all his mana. After some turns, he had a batterskull with a jitte and 2 counters and i was left with 5 tokens. Played Cabal ritual, infernal tutor for cabal ritual, cabal ritx2 ToA for 5 (he was at 5) he activated the jitte to won 4 and StP'ed his token for another 4, leaving him at 3 and 2 sfm, meaning exactly lethal for me with my 5 tokens.
Game 2 i sided exactly like aggainst the other uwr stoneblade - 2 carpet 2 swarms, a nauseam and took 2 cabal rit, empty the warrens 1 pif and 1 toa.
I Led with an early carpet, then xantid swarm, giving him 1 or 2 turns to find the removal which he ddint, then went off with another very generous AN.

Well this was long, ha. A very exciting tournament, since as you have seen a lot of victories had been unexpected even for me, with tons of adrenaline as its expected from this deck. I sure had a lot of mistakes (some little like adding BBB with carpet and then attacking with swarm, burning my mana, and some huge
like not counting the storm vs Post) and a lot of luck, but i think the deck deserves the credits. Double ToA (and the two tops) maindeck means being able to natural tendrils much more often which is HUGE, specially since no one expects it, at least game 1.

[Sloshthedark]

3 City of Solitude (played with 2, now with the third)


I like that, might be good, but would require redefining SB for me... also korean or dark Visions?... gives me a headache already =/


natural tendrils was the mvp of the tournament all day long.. wining top 8 and top 4, then spliting the finals.

I certainly like that, congrats! what was your finals MU?

[JamieW89]

Played an 8 man single-elim invitational yesterday, with 6 tournament winners and 2 point slots.

QF: UWR Blade with CB package sb
g1: I mull to 6 but have a t2 Ad Nauseam from hand which gets there.
g2: He assembles Top+CB and has some countermagic, I die hopelessly.
g3: I have a solid hand with PiF,Grim Tutor,AdN,Decay and 3 Rituals but am brainstorm-locked while he has the lock out and I lack green mana for the Decay. I luckily draw a green source just in time and despite him having 3 FoW's, Flusterstorm, REB and the soft-lock he dies in every line he has.

SF: Chalice Merfolk
g1: He always plays UR Delver, so I calmly prepare to go off on turn-3 after his t1 Island->go doesn't refute my expection. But then he throws down a Chalice on 1.. I have the right mana (LED,LP,CRit), but fail to find a Tutor in time. He forgets his chalice when I duress (had to fill my graveyard), if I had slipped through a cantrip instead I'd have made it (Tutor was one card deeper)..
g2: I make a bunch of goblins on t2 and he dies.
g3: He plays Island,go. I cast duress and see Chalice,Chalice,FoW,Daze,Lord,Island. I take one Chalice, he plays the second on 1. He FoWs my Grim Tutor a little later and I never find one my Decays.

The final would have been versus UR Delver or BUG Delver. At least the top-4 split the 400 store credit ^^.

[kkkant]

I like that, might be good, but would require redefining SB for me... also korean or dark Visions?... gives me a headache already =/



I certainly like that, congrats! what was your finals MU?

Bug delver, a match up i really dont want to play at all..

[Madsk]

Is Contagion tested out as a hatebear killer?

Definitely a hard hit on Ad Naseum but is a universal hatbear kill card

Can kill a 2/2 og two x/1 at instant speed for the cost of a ritual/discard + 1 life.



What do people board in vs Meddling Mage, Teeg, Canonist , "insert any hatebear with x/2"
Is it a long shot to board in 3 Dread of Night?

Edit: i think in mu's with counterspells or where Thalia/Mother are not played

[Lemnear]

Is Contagion tested out as a hatebear killer?

Definitely a hard hit on Ad Naseum but is a universal hatbear kill card

Can kill a 2/2 og two x/1 at instant speed for the cost of a ritual/discard + 1 life.



What do people board in vs Meddling Mage, Teeg, Canonist , "insert any hatebear with x/2"
Is it a long shot to board in 3 Dread of Night?

Erm ... Massacre?

[Madsk]

Erm ... Massacre?

I know about Massacre

[nevilshute]

Hey Lemnear. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but...


Is Contagion tested out as a hatebear killer?

Definitely a hard hit on Ad Naseum but is a universal hatbear kill card

Can kill a 2/2 og two x/1 at instant speed for the cost of a ritual/discard + 1 life.



What do people board in vs Meddling Mage, Teeg, Canonist , "insert any hatebear with x/2"
Is it a long shot to board in 3 Dread of Night?


Erm ... Massacre?

The question asked is, primarily, has Contagion been tested? Secondarily, and by implication alone, do you think it's any good?

I've noticed that you excuse your - at times - agitating behavior on these boards by the fact that you find it insulting when someone answers in one-sentence posts to a serious, worked-through post or question. Not saying you were impolite here, per se, but I gather you understand my meaning.

@Madsk:

I have no idea if Contagion has been tested. I've not done so myself but it seems like a bad card for our pus. It's 5CMC so it doesn't kill Teeg - the only reason I could have seen to play it over Massacre. It targets. It's also card disadvantage which is a big detriment. The one advantage I could see for the card is the fact that it can kill X/1's at the same time. So, a Thalia and a Revoker/SoL/Mindcensor/?

But again, Massacre kills 10 X/2s for no mana as well, and you're not down a card that way.

[Megadeus]

Yeah I see almost no reason to run it over massacre (which if your opponent has no plains you can still ritual out). Both suck versus Teeg. One needs a plains, but how often is a hate bear on board without a plains? I know it happens versus DnT, but meh.

[Madsk]

Hey Lemnear. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but...





The question asked is, primarily, has Contagion been tested? Secondarily, and by implication alone, do you think it's any good?

I've noticed that you excuse your - at times - agitating behavior on these boards by the fact that you find it insulting when someone answers in one-sentence posts to a serious, worked-through post or question. Not saying you were impolite here, per se, but I gather you understand my meaning.

@Madsk:

I have no idea if Contagion has been tested. I've not done so myself but it seems like a bad card for our pus. It's 5CMC so it doesn't kill Teeg - the only reason I could have seen to play it over Massacre. It targets. It's also card disadvantage which is a big detriment. The one advantage I could see for the card is the fact that it can kill X/1's at the same time. So, a Thalia and a Revoker/SoL/Mindcensor/?

But again, Massacre kills 10 X/2s for no mana as well, and you're not down a card that way.

Fair enough,

How do you guys approach UWr Delver (BBD style) where you expect x/2 hatebears and counters, if they play x/1 bears i slam DoN and every new year i land 2pcs , but if i only see x/2 bears, do you board Massacre and thats it or Massacre + CoV and Abrupts. We have alot of answers but i dont want to ruin my mainplan doing it.

[GoblinZ]

Fair enough,

How do you guys approach UWr Delver (BBD style) where you expect x/2 hatebears and counters, if they play x/1 bears i slam DoN and every new year i land 2pcs , but if i only see x/2 bears, do you board Massacre and thats it or Massacre + CoV and Abrupts. We have alot of answers but i dont want to ruin my mainplan doing it.

Massacre+Decay seems okay for me, CoV may meet pyroblast, aslo you don't want to over board.

Contagion needs another card unless you hardcast it, it is more suitable for manaless dredge, which has no other choice than Contagion.

[Madsk]

Massacre+Decay seems okay for me, CoV may meet pyroblast, aslo you don't want to over board.

Contagion needs another card unless you hardcast it, it is more suitable for manaless dredge, which has no other choice than Contagion.

In:
1-2 Massacre
1-3 Abrupt Decay

out:
3 Preordain
1-2 Cabal Ritual/LED

So basicly the same cards as versus D&T, minus the DoN.

Boarding with this deck feels like a nightmare.

[GoblinZ]

In:
1-2 Massacre
1-3 Abrupt Decay

out:
3 Preordain
1-2 Cabal Ritual/LED

So basicly the same cards as versus D&T, minus the DoN.

Boarding with this deck feels like a nightmare.

I have not tested this mu a lot actually, so here is only personal suggestion.

based on my current sideboard, I may board in 1 Massacre 3 decay

if they play a lot of soft counters, board one cabal ritual is okay. I will not consider cut LED.

Vs DnT, CoV over Decay, because of Thalia and wasteland.

[Sloshthedark]

Contagion - Remove one card clause makes it unplayable no matter what the card does



In:
1-2 Massacre
1-3 Abrupt Decay

out:
3 Preordain
1-2 Cabal Ritual/LED

So basicly the same cards as versus D&T, minus the DoN.

Boarding with this deck feels like a nightmare.

hell no, it's one of the best possible MUs, the deck is even worse than classic UWr vs Storm, 0 T1 play, 0 Daze, 0 pressure

in - Storm spell, all kill spells
out - preordains, CR, LP, basic land ... if you board out 2nd CR or even LED you have to have damn good reason for it

[kkkant]

Regarding sawatarix's list: is maindeck thoughtseize that bad of an idea? I know flashbacking it can really hurt, but it is certainly better than in the ad nauseam builds, and it can improve some of the matchups aggainst this version isnt as good as the traditional one (since its a little bit slower and grindier)

[Lemnear]

Hey Lemnear. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but...

I've noticed that you excuse your - at times - agitating behavior on these boards by the fact that you find it insulting when someone answers in one-sentence posts to a serious, worked-through post or question. Not saying you were impolite here, per se, but I gather you understand my meaning.

You are 100% correct. No need to be soft tongued here. I'm sorry guys.

@Contaigon (the adequate answer Version): the issue with this card aside the fact that Teeg blocks it and it really hurts off Ad Nauseam is the sheer mana- or card-Investment it requires. As we have barely a way to create cardadvantage, 2-for-1'ing ourselves is a unbearable move to come back from behind (aka hatebears already hit the board). Massacre is a much more Economic way to clear the board from hatebears even if we can't abuse it in other matchups (like Delver or Elves). I guess if you want to take a look at less conditional sweepers than Massacre, Pyroclasm is worth a try.

[wonderPreaux]

You are 100% correct. No need to be soft tongued here. I'm sorry guys.

@Contaigon (the adequate answer Version): the issue with this card aside the fact that Teeg blocks it and it really hurts off Ad Nauseam is the sheer mana- or card-Investment it requires. As we have barely a way to create cardadvantage, 2-for-1'ing ourselves is a unbearable move to come back from behind (aka hatebears already hit the board). Massacre is a much more Economic way to clear the board from hatebears even if we can't abuse it in other matchups (like Delver or Elves). I guess if you want to take a look at less conditional sweepers than Massacre, Pyroclasm is worth a try.

I've played Pyroclasm in ANT more than a couple times, and every time it's been more appealing in theory than it's been in practice. I think Bolt is decent if you really want to zap Delvers/Elvers, and Massacre/Chain/Decay are fine as is.

[kkkant]

Went 5-0 in my local FNM (19 people) with again the same decklist (sawatarix's grinding station +tropical -bayou +1 warrens - 1tendrils MD, +2 massacre -2 dread of night (dread is great with AN, but massacre is great vs UWR delver) +1 Meltdown -1 Krosan Grip SB)

Got paired against:
Bug Delver (2-0)
Miracles (2-0) (g2 opponent had a flusterstorm set on top with sdt, i casted infernal tutor, breaking led and discarting a PIF, searched for another PIF, casted it, got countered, and then going off next turn, having the possibility of going off the next turn also. That was pretty awesome)
Miracles (2-1) (g2 double tendrils won me vs a hand with double fow (double blue pitch) and a flusterstorm)
Elves (2-0)
Elves (2-0)

Im not entirely sold on the SB anyway. Although the nauseam plan is great (g2 vs elves i sided out 2 pif, 1 tendrils and 1 warrens for 2 nauseams 1 chrome mox and 1 CoV) since we can signifcantly reduce the CMC of the deck, but im not sure 2 nauseam is the way to go. I think if i can find another card that can help going off faster without such high CMC it would be optimal. Spoils of the vault comes to the top of my head, although its not very synergical with ad nauseam. Also SB Burning Wish may have some edge: If we bring it in in games where we side out all of our pifs and extra storm spells, it can help reduce the overall cmc, while letting us have massacre available in case we need it, and PIF or ToA/Warrens. Plus, in the mirror or fast combo matchups we can always use it to fetch discard. All of this without having to commit sb cards for wishboard; its just natural to our sb plan when we need speed to remove the pifs and extra storms.

[Shaman]

Went 5-0 in my local FNM (19 people) with again the same decklist (sawatarix's grinding station +tropical -bayou +1 warrens - 1tendrils MD, +2 massacre -2 dread of night (dread is great with AN, but massacre is great vs UWR delver) +1 Meltdown -1 Krosan Grip SB)


On November, 23rd I made top8 in a 108 people tournament with a maindeck almost identical to yours (http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-legacy/1782-legacy-top-8-earthquake-2014-finale-emilia.html : missing cards are 3 cabal therapies).
I have been toying with Grinding Station for a couple of months, and I sleeved an old list of Jona's with some sideboard techs to fight Miracles. I didn't expect combo at all.
Unfortunately, I didn't get paired against the fair decks I wanted to fight, and I had to defeat combo decks all day (with a little bit of luck) to reach top8.

My impressions on this list are:
- you are often too much dependent on your starting hand;
- I miss preordains too much: sensei's top doesn't add speed to the deck and makes your play one turn slower;
- you have a good match-up vs. fair decks, still blackblade is quite hard in my opinion because of discard;
- despite my results, combo mirrors are not in your favour at all: reanimator, dredge, TES are a nightmare if you don't have a dedicated sideboard;
- ad nauseam seems to be the best weapons from the sideboard, so I am still asking myself if it makes sense playing a maindeck without :P

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like [City of Solitude], might be good, but would require redefining SB for me... also korean or dark Visions?... gives me a headache already =/


I played the card. It's really hard to resolve against decks with Spell Pierce and/or discard, plus it's super awful in AdN.
English only. Saves lots of headaches. ;-)


Contagion is really bad against Teeg, right?

[CabalTherapy]

I played the card. It's really hard to resolve against decks with Spell Pierce and/or discard, plus it's super awful in AdN.


It's not "super awful in AdN" and it is certainly not that hard to resolve. In addition, City doesn't see play against decks with discard. It is mainly against Miracles, BBD's UWR, Golddigger UWR, which are played in my meta to a wider extent.

Line of thought/strategy is: Get to know the opponent's hand > accumulate cards for a kill > discard the counterspell that would counter City (Flusterstorm is useless here for example) > land City of Solitude > win on next turn.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's not "super awful in AdN" and it is certainly not that hard to resolve. In addition, City doesn't see play against decks with discard. It is mainly against Miracles, BBD's UWR, Golddigger UWR, which are played in my meta to a wider extent.


Oops, I misread the thread and thought that the proposal was to take City against BUG. My bad.
As a cmc3 card it definitely isn't the easiest card to resolve (except that it better dodges CB, of course), and it hurts in AdN. The last time I played them (note that I used three and it might be one too many) I flipped two of them. They left the sb asap, but maybe I was too fast with my judgement.

[sawatarix]

@shaman,kkkant: opposing discard is effective especially if your plan is the natural tendrils from your hand because all we do is sculpting the perfect hand with 7+1 spells.
This is the time for Ad Nauseam,our carddrawing engine to actually negate hymns and thoughtseizes.
Bring it (or even 2) in against those decks even if it is Team America.
I have no problem with this boarding since TA is one of the slower delver decks.