[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[kkkant]

My impressions on this list are:
- you are often too much dependent on your starting hand;
- I miss preordains too much: sensei's top doesn't add speed to the deck and makes your play one turn slower;
- you have a good match-up vs. fair decks, still blackblade is quite hard in my opinion because of discard;
- despite my results, combo mirrors are not in your favour at all: reanimator, dredge, TES are a nightmare if you don't have a dedicated sideboard;
- ad nauseam seems to be the best weapons from the sideboard, so I am still asking myself if it makes sense playing a maindeck without :P

1) i dont think so, my only concern regarding my opening 7 is not to overflow with combo pieces. Otherwise, the deck has a lot of ways to get started, even without a tutor. (pif + led and a few cantrips ino the yard can often do it)
2) top is definetly slower, but i didnt miss preordain at all. I guess thát is some personal consideration.
3) discard (or at least hymns) is not very popular right now because of the ability of many decks to fill its hand again very quickly. This deck, though, is some sort of a meta call, so im still sticking with that plan. Regarding combo matchs, it is true that it is consideraebly slower. I guess i was lucky to only face elves hahaha.
4) yes, a lot of times i found myself siding in nauseam. But many of those times it was just in order to screw my opponent sb plan by not depending on thr gy at all, and sometimes switchng back again. But yes, it is true that i miss AN, altuough i wouldnot go back to play only 1toa or 1 pif

[sawatarix]

Happy New Year Stormers.
There are a lot of legacy tournaments this year,waiting for Stormdecks to make Top 8.
Challenge accepted !

[nevilshute]

Happy New Year Stormers.
There are a lot of legacy tournaments this year,waiting for Stormdecks to make Top 8.
Challenge accepted !

+1 :smile:

[laserstone]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of playing the "grinding station" list? What matchups does it improve/worsen in comparison to the stock list?
How does the strategy of playing the deck change with the change in decklist?

[nevilshute]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of playing the "grinding station" list? What matchups does it improve/worsen in comparison to the stock list?
How does the strategy of playing the deck change with the change in decklist?

Crudely summed up: makes Miracles matchup significantly better - other slower control matchups also become better. Worsens most combo matchups.

[kkkant]

Crudely summed up: makes Miracles matchup significantly better - other slower control matchups also become better. Worsens most combo matchups.

Agree. I guess dnt is worse for grinding station also. Didnt test it though.

[nevilshute]

Agree. I guess dnt is worse for grinding station also. Didnt test it though.

I think that very much depends on how you've set up your sideboard. I personally don't bring in AN against D&T because I like to be able to side in multiples of Massacre as well as Decays for their guys + rip etc. As for game 1, if you are running a maindeck Empty the Warrens it will offer a non-trivial amount of "free wins" off of turns 1-2, 10-14 goblins.

Exactly how comparable these free wins are to the free wins gotten off of a main deck AN I don't know, but I've never felt short changed playing the Grinding Station.

[Togores]

Happy New Year Stormers.
There are a lot of legacy tournaments this year,waiting for Stormdecks to make Top 8.
Challenge accepted !

Sad that no more Bazar anymore, now that I can go and top 8 again...
But there is a Legacy GP that I will atend.


So storm them to dead also in 2015.

[.Ix]

Sad that no more Bazar anymore, now that I can go and top 8 again...
But there is a Legacy GP that I will atend.


So storm them to dead also in 2015.

No more Bazaar of Moxen? When did that happen? ;___;

[Togores]

No more Bazaar of Moxen? When did that happen? ;___;

The Bom said it like in november. Now they are doing most of the european GPs (and getting more money from them) sonthat they said there is no time to make the Bom. They will be doing the legacy GP (wich is not near to the Bom...).


Sad sad sad

[Narcind]

No more Bazaar of Moxen? When did that happen? ;___;

They're going to focus more on hosting GP's this next year, so there won't be a real BoM. They're hosting GP Lille though, which is legacy, so it's almost the same thing.

[nevilshute]

They're going to focus more on hosting GP's this next year, so there won't be a real BoM. They're hosting GP Lille though, which is legacy, so it's almost the same thing.

Link to something official about this?

[flrn]

They're going to focus more on hosting GP's this next year, so there won't be a real BoM. They're hosting GP Lille though, which is legacy, so it's almost the same thing.

There will be a tournament in Milan at the date, where BoM used to be.

[CabalTherapy]

Yesterday at the local event.

Miracles opponent after game 1: "Oh, things get worse for Robert now!"
> Turn 2 City of Solitude
> Turn 3 win
Me to the Miracles dude: "That was a bit too easy."

This card becomes better and better from tournament to tournament. And it's not even that cluncy and wins on its own. Like a green Show and Tell.

[Surfinbird]

Robert, have you tested city of solitude against tempo decks like canadian or Uwr delver? I imagine that the 3 cmc is too high against pierces and dazes, but maybe it works.

[CabalTherapy]

Robert, have you tested city of solitude against tempo decks like canadian or Uwr delver? I imagine that the 3 cmc is too high against pierces and dazes, but maybe it works.

No, but I won't recommend playing it against tempo or uwr Delver. City shines where we aren't in a need to win very fast. Canadian, Burg and Uwr Delver can deploy fast clocks and in addition screw our manabase with Wasteland and sometimes also Stifle. Plus, as you already mentioned: City is bad against taxcounter because we usually aren't in a situation against these decks where we can play a cc3 spell daze- or pierce-proof. Further, against decks with Wasteland I don't like boarding in cards which can't be played via Swamp or Island.

You see, I am a big for of that card (at least at the moment it does its job nicely) but it isn't my idea. I have heard about this possibility from Kai who has told me about Martin's (nevilshute) SB including City of Solitude.

[sawatarix]

Yep, thanks to Martin for this great innovation !
But i have to mention that i'm not such a huge fan of city of solitude as robert, simply because it's a card for a very limited part of the legacy metagame.
Namely miracle control and the bbd deck.

Still on the defense grid train, because it is also a tool against any delver deck without discard (ur/uwr/canadian).
But the card is - as you see - slightly worse than city of solitude if it resolves. Still won me a lot of games so far.
Last but not least: The shiny version of Urzas Legacy Defense Grid is so f***** beautiful that there is no way to not play it ;D

[Surfinbird]

Actually i'm running this sideboard (2 preordains, 7discard, 1 Grim tutor maindeck) :

3 Abrupt decay
3 Xantid swarm
2 sensei's divining top
2 chain of vapor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre (both work well with grim tutor)
1 Krosan grip
1 Flusterstorm (meta call)
1 Empty the warrens (i love it against miracles)


I like the idea of 3 city of solitude, but my side is already worKing fantastically against miracles... I hardly ever lose the g2 and 3. I might try it but i don't think i'll make any changes

[phazonmutant]

I split the top 4 of a 42-person event in Seattle this weekend. List was similar to here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77499), except for some slight sideboard changes. -1 Extirpate, -1 Xantid Swarm, -1 Massacre, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Sensei's Divining Top. I've been finding the Miracles matchup tough when they can stick an early Counterbalance and I don't have a Decay. Top has proven to be good at coming down under Counterbalance and is good against discard of course. I was unhappy with Extirpate and wasn't even bringing it in against Miracles - like what am I going to do, mess up their top of library when they flip top? That's pretty underwhelming. Against ANT and the combo decks, it's way better to be able to Duress and still hold up additional disruption turn 1.

R1 Grixis Control 1-2. He had a pile of Counterspells, Hymns, and even a Spellbomb maindeck. Tough matchup.
R2 Canadian Threshold 2-0. He didn't understand how to fight storm - kept a no-lander with Crypt and Force game 2 on the play.
R3 Mono-W HATERADE 2-1. See the next couple posts for more details.
R4 ANT 2-1. I won the die roll, and I'm undefeated in the mirror when I win the die roll. Surgical wasn't enough to stop him g2 - I prevented him from killing me with Past in Flames by exiling Cabal Ritual, but he drew some mana and flashed it back a couple turns later.
R5 RUG Counter-Top Lands 2-0. Kind of a brew. He was mana constrained both games, but I still had to fight through 3+ counterspells. I didn't realize he was more Lands than Miracles since I only saw like 10 cards from him game 1, so boarded as if against Miracles. His double Grafdigger's Cage made things awkward, but I killed his Counterbalance and then used my 8 spells in hand + Top to natural Tendrils him.
R6 UWR Stoneblade 2-1. I lost game 1 to yet more maindeck Counterspells, Pierces, Forces, and card draw. It was close but he always had the answers. Games 2 and 3 were some of my finest games in months. I'll go into more detail below.
Quarters UWR Stoneblade (Gerry T) 2-1. I've alternated between Storm and other decks for the past month or two, but every time we play I'm on Storm and he's on some UR(x) deck. I'm 3-0 or 4-0, can't remember. He too had Counterspell maindeck, but I kept making him have the answers until he ran out. Then game 2 he had pressure, counterspells, and Cage. Tough. Game 3 I slogged through about 5 counterspells of various sorts with discard, tutoring for Past in Flames, etc. He drew a Meddling Mage to shut off the Past in Flames flashback for the win, but I tutored for a Chain of Vapor and won. Tough opponent, and his draws weren't great, but I feel like the matchup is favorable for storm.

So about round 6 - this was against a local who I know to be a competent magician. Game 1 I went for an upkeep Ad Nauseam, but forgot I had to sac Lotus Petal to get threshold until I cast Cabal Ritual. He countered, as expected. But then when I went for my Past in Flames line the next turn, I forgot that I didn't have the extra mana from Petal, and couldn't flash back Cabal Ritual to kill him. Not my finest. I made up for it games 2 and 3 though. We both mulliganed, and I saw that he kept a stinker - couple of equipment, Stoneforge, and a Flusterstorm, which I took. My hand was going to take a while to come together too, so I ended up taking his Stoneforge with a Therapy. He drew into True-Name Nemesis and then the next turn passed without playing his Sword of Fire and Ice. I had the kill, but his play seemed suspicious. I blind-Therapied Counterspell, hit, and tutored to set up a double-Tendrils line that killed with one Tendrils even if he Forced a mana spell (as he did). Then game 3, I had boarded out all my Chain of Vapors and Abrupt Decays because it didn't seem like he had any hate permanents. I discarded a couple of counterspells, but then he top-decked and tapped out for his one-of Meddling Mage, which named Ad Nauseam. This seemed suspicious. I had the kill again the next turn, but it relied on Past in Flames. So I blind Therapied him, named Surgical Extraction, and hit again! I had to feel good about two game-winning blind hits to lock top-8. :cool:

Overall thoughts - I used Ad Nauseam for a maindeck kill several times. It's not great, but it's an essential tool to have access to, especially now that so many decks seem to be going for a bunch of counterspells, card draw, and very few threats. The board was fine, although I didn't cast Empty at all. There were a bunch of Stoneblade decks and few tempo decks, so maybe that slot would be better served as a City of Solitude to shore up the Miracles matchup. The Miracles players all got knocked out early though, so maybe the field is turning against them. At least here in Seattle, it continues to be a good time to be a Storm player.

EDIT: added in round 3 details.

[ThomasDowd]

I split the top 4 of a 42-person event in Seattle this weekend. List was similar to here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77499), except for some slight sideboard changes. -1 Extirpate, -1 Xantid Swarm, -1 Massacre, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Sensei's Divining Top. I've been finding the Miracles matchup tough when they can stick an early Counterbalance and I don't have a Decay. Top has proven to be good at coming down under Counterbalance and is good against discard of course. I was unhappy with Extirpate and wasn't even bringing it in against Miracles - like what am I going to do, mess up their top of library when they flip top? That's pretty underwhelming. Against ANT and the combo decks, it's way better to be able to Duress and still hold up additional disruption turn 1.

R1 Grixis Control 1-2. He had a pile of Counterspells, Hymns, and even a Spellbomb maindeck. Tough matchup.
R2 Canadian Threshold 2-0. He didn't understand how to fight storm - kept a no-lander with Crypt and Force game 2 on the play.
R3 I'm drawing a blank. I think I won very quickly.
R4 ANT 2-1. I won the die roll, and I'm undefeated in the mirror when I win the die roll. Surgical wasn't enough to stop him g2 - I prevented him from killing me with Past in Flames by exiling Cabal Ritual, but he drew some mana and flashed it back a couple turns later.
R5 RUG Counter-Top Lands 2-0. Kind of a brew. He was mana constrained both games, but I still had to fight through 3+ counterspells. I didn't realize he was more Lands than Miracles since I only saw like 10 cards from him game 1, so boarded as if against Miracles. His double Grafdigger's Cage made things awkward, but I killed his Counterbalance and then used my 8 spells in hand + Top to natural Tendrils him.
R6 UWR Stoneblade 2-1. I lost game 1 to yet more maindeck Counterspells, Pierces, Forces, and card draw. It was close but he always had the answers. Games 2 and 3 were some of my finest games in months. I'll go into more detail below.
Quarters UWR Stoneblade (Gerry T) 2-1. I've alternated between Storm and other decks for the past month or two, but every time we play I'm on Storm and he's on some UR(x) deck. I'm 3-0 or 4-0, can't remember. He too had Counterspell maindeck, but I kept making him have the answers until he ran out. Then game 2 he had pressure, counterspells, and Cage. Tough. Game 3 I slogged through about 5 counterspells of various sorts with discard, tutoring for Past in Flames, etc. He drew a Meddling Mage to shut off the Past in Flames flashback for the win, but I tutored for a Chain of Vapor and won. Tough opponent, and his draws weren't great, but I feel like the matchup is favorable for storm.

So about round 6 - this was against a local who I know to be a competent magician. Game 1 I went for an upkeep Ad Nauseam, but forgot I had to sac Lotus Petal to get threshold until I cast Cabal Ritual. He countered, as expected. But then when I went for my Past in Flames line the next turn, I forgot that I didn't have the extra mana from Petal, and couldn't flash back Cabal Ritual to kill him. Not my finest. I made up for it games 2 and 3 though. We both mulliganed, and I saw that he kept a stinker - couple of equipment, Stoneforge, and a Flusterstorm, which I took. My hand was going to take a while to come together too, so I ended up taking his Stoneforge with a Therapy. He drew into True-Name Nemesis and then the next turn passed without playing his Sword of Fire and Ice. I had the kill, but his play seemed suspicious. I blind-Therapied Counterspell, hit, and tutored to set up a double-Tendrils line that killed with one Tendrils even if he Forced a mana spell (as he did). Then game 3, I had boarded out all my Chain of Vapors and Abrupt Decays because it didn't seem like he had any hate permanents. I discarded a couple of counterspells, but then he top-decked and tapped out for his one-of Meddling Mage, which named Ad Nauseam. This seemed suspicious. I had the kill again the next turn, but it relied on Past in Flames. So I blind Therapied him, named Surgical Extraction, and hit again! I had to feel good about two game-winning blind hits to lock top-8. :cool:

Overall thoughts - I used Ad Nauseam for a maindeck kill several times. It's not great, but it's an essential tool to have access to, especially now that so many decks seem to be going for a bunch of counterspells, card draw, and very few threats. The board was fine, although I didn't cast Empty at all. There were a bunch of Stoneblade decks and few tempo decks, so maybe that slot would be better served as a City of Solitude to shore up the Miracles matchup. The Miracles players all got knocked out early though, so maybe the field is turning against them. At least here in Seattle, it continues to be a good time to be a Storm player.

R3 was Z. Eagle i believe on mono white hate.
G1 was won through a leonin arbiter, thalia and suppression field. after you took his 3 ball the turn prior you had volc/trop in play and used lotus for initial black and then had the million rituals + IT, LED-> PiF.
g2 i believe he said he went double chalice?
g3 i believe he said he went to 6 and kept hoping to draw a mana source and you just killed him on 2.

[phazonmutant]

R3 was Z. Eagle i believe on mono white hate.
G1 was won through a leonin arbiter, thalia and suppression field. after you took his 3 ball the turn prior you had volc/trop in play and used lotus for initial black and then had the million rituals + IT, LED-> PiF.
g2 i believe he said he went double chalice?
g3 i believe he said he went to 6 and kept hoping to draw a mana source and you just killed him on 2.

Oh god that match. You're exactly right. I must have tried to blank the hate from my memory. Yep, game 1 took 7 mana spells and an Infernal Tutor to win, and still required using Past in Flames to get enough mana :eek:
Game 2 I kept a sketchy no-lander with no anti-hate that could win on turn 1 if he didn't have a Chrome Mox into hate opening. Unfortunately he did have the Chalice on 1 turn 1.
Game 3, you summed it up.

I'll edit my post above with the matchup.

[nevilshute]

Whenever I, or another storm player, beats a chalice player - especially if said player has several hate pieces on the board - it's like a little piece of heaven :smile:

Nice outing Phazon. Glad to hear you are still stormin'.

[JamieW89]

There will be a tournament in Milan at the date, where BoM used to be.

Do you have any details on this or have they not been published yet?

[Firefight]

Hi Guys,

I'm a new Storm Trooper, and just finished building ANT, but I have questions that I have not been able to answer by checking on the threads , post , SCG articles, or maybe I have not payed enough attention, if you please care to explain me I will be glad with you. Thank you

I have questions regarding the Mana Base, My build is an exact copy of Royce Walter third place at GPNJ, even the sideboard is the same.

Why ANT does not play Gemstone Mine anymore? Like the 2013 Adam Prosak build.

Is it really required to have 2 island or can I add another dual? If yes, what is it better, Bayou or Badlands? Is this a budget situation in the builds?

8 Fetchlands is the way to go? or is it meta call?

Why there are builds with 12 lands that are not TES ?

Thanks

[wonderPreaux]

Hi Guys,

I'm a new Storm Trooper, and just finished building ANT, but I have questions that I have not been able to answer by checking on the threads , post , SCG articles, or maybe I have not payed enough attention, if you please care to explain me I will be glad with you. Thank you

I have questions regarding the Mana Base, My build is an exact copy of Royce Walter third place at GPNJ, even the sideboard is the same.

Why ANT does not play Gemstone Mine anymore? Like the 2013 Adam Prosak build.

Is it really required to have 2 island or can I add another dual? If yes, what is it better, Bayou or Badlands? Is this a budget situation in the builds?

8 Fetchlands is the way to go? or is it meta call?

Why there are builds with 12 lands that are not TES ?

Thanks
The lack of Gemstone Mine is due to it being fundamentally underwhelming to a deck that draws great strength from just chilling out, hitting land drops and having consistent mana. This is also a large explanation for lists running 8+ fetches, stifles are few and far in between and it's really easy to manage basics and splash-duals with fetche.

If you add another dual that is a splash color, make it the one most important to your splash, so usually Bayou because of Xantid Swarm/Decay. However, there is a decent argument to be made that the additional non-U land is more trouble than it's worth since having a hand full of cantrips doesn't mesh well with cards like Swamp, I often switch between Bayou and a 3rd Underground Sea for that reason.

[Kanti]

@phazmo; If I read correctly you saw (Probed/discard) that your opponent had a Stoneforge in hand before casting Therapy. Woudn't it be better to just wait here and have your opponent cast SFM, and just Therapy away their Batterskull? After playing NicFit for a bit I started leaning towards that strategy as it's easier to run into another Mystic, but not as easy to get a Batterskull out of the graveyard. The downside to this is that they have no resolved Mystic of course, and might have the BSkull in hand, or can play with Brainstorm.

edit: nvm, just re-read the post. He had more equipments in hand. Therapy that damn SFM away.

[Togores]

Help guys.
Lately I had a littl inside fight.
I play 2 chain of vapor and 2 krossan grip.
Anticipating leyline I would side one of both. Usualy chain.
But grip can be casted on the omniscense without respinse. And now that they usualy only play one enter abd multiple digs.
You guys thik this is worth to try to catch them so? Or its a bad plan? Grip also makes nauseam not so good. But its usualy always from 17 life so a cc3 is not so bad.

Opinion?

[guillemnicolau]

Help guys.
Lately I had a littl inside fight.
I play 2 chain of vapor and 2 krossan grip.
Anticipating leyline I would side one of both. Usualy chain.
But grip can be casted on the omniscense without respinse. And now that they usualy only play one enter abd multiple digs.
You never have the priority when the omniscience touches the battlefield, so they can play Emrakul or ETI instantly and the grip will do nothing (yes, if they play ETI they won't be able to combo the same turn without omniscience, but they can always Cunning Wish into Noxious Revival to combo de next turn, with fow backup because they have the whole library in hand. It's true that if they play DTT they will probably cast it to search the WC, but there's the probability that after some cantrips they have it in hand...
You guys thik this is worth to try to catch them so? Or its a bad plan? Grip also makes nauseam not so good. But its usualy always from 17 life so a cc3 is not so bad.
Uhm, are you saying that you usually have 17 life when you play AN?
Opinion?
Answered in post, with bold text. I wouldn't change the sideboard to play against omnitell, you have discard and your deck can combo before omnitell, so it's not worth it to waste SB slots for it IMO.

[Togores]

Yeah but if they dont have the wincon like enter or emrakul in hand it puts them back to square one. If they have one of this 2 cards u just loose. U can respond to one of theys cantrips or cunning or dig destroying his enchantment.


Also yes its not the same strting from 17 life with a Cc3 in deck tan starting from 13 or so doe to some random creature beats.

[elroy]

They can also have another Omni (or Dream Halls) which they should play first and prevent the K Grip plan working. If you are siding in 2 bounce spells for leyline, I would go one of each (Chain + Grip) as while Omnitell has several outs to Grip they don't always have them and in that case you've probably bought yourself 2 turns. Grip over the second chain due to FoW/Pact of Negation/Flusterstorm.

Overall the match-up should be favourable for ANT.

[Chaam]

As for the 2nd Island vs. Bayou vs. Badlands discussion, why not a 2nd Trop? Am I missing something here? It seems like it is the best option.

[Lemnear]

As for the 2nd Island vs. Bayou vs. Badlands discussion, why not a 2nd Trop?

Because T1 Volcanic + Ponder/Preordain into T2 Ponder/Brainstorm/Preordain into Fetchland into Bayou casts not only all Protection (Discard and Xantid) but also provides all 4 colors

[CabalTherapy]

As for the 2nd Island vs. Bayou vs. Badlands discussion, why not a 2nd Trop? Am I missing something here? It seems like it is the best option.

There isn't any discussion about this topic and please don't start one because reasons are obvious. Yes, you are missing something here. And no, a second Tropical is horrible.

[lordofthepit]

As for the 2nd Island vs. Bayou vs. Badlands discussion, why not a 2nd Trop? Am I missing something here? It seems like it is the best option.

phazonmutant is the only ANT player I know that plays 2 Tropicals. I know when I faced him in a weekly and saw him with two Tropicals on the board, I immediately assumed (incorrectly) that he was on BUG when I initially put him on ANT. Hopefully, he'll chime in with his thoughts on his land base.

[Chaam]

I mean if you are planning on playing the 2nd island anyways wouldn't a 2nd trop just be better 95% of the time? You probably only need to fetch one basic island.

[phazonmutant]

There isn't any discussion about this topic and please don't start one because reasons are obvious. Yes, you are missing something here. And no, a second Tropical is horrible.

So dismissive. Obviously the reasons aren't obvious, he wouldn't ask if they were.

Ant really wants to cast cantrips for the first turn or two. Most often, a draw just fails to come together when you're sitting around hoping to naturally draw something good. With this in mind, drawing an opener with no blue source is MUCH more likely to result in a mulligan than a hand with no black source. After all, you mostly need black the turn you go off, and then you have plentiful black from rituals. Against non counterbalance Brainstorm decks, it's often better to cantrip instead of casting discard for a couple reasons. They feel safer so might not cantrip for protection as hard. They might get mana constrained if they try to protect their hand. They have fewer cards in bin for Cruise. It also gives you better information - I've lost to Duressing their last counterspell, passing, and having them rip another plenty of times.

So I think it's unacceptable to have two nonU sources. It increases inconsistency. 2 Seas are sufficient. I do play a Verdant to have another fetch that can find a basic Swamp to virtually have more black sources.

[phazonmutant]

I mean if you are planning on playing the 2nd island anyways wouldn't a 2nd trop just be better 95% of the time? You probably only need to fetch one basic island.

That's true, but it's not quite accurate. The second basic Island almost always comes at the cost of a fetch. Fetches are super important for threshold, shuffling cantrips, and colors. The other thing it could be at the expense of is a dual, but there aren't an I feel comfortable cutting. 2 Sea, 1 Volc is the bare minimum for the combo cards, and I think 2 green sources are important for casting Decay against Wasteland + Hate permanent decks like MUD.

[Togores]

So dismissive. Obviously the reasons aren't obvious, he wouldn't ask if they were.

Ant really wants to cast cantrips for the first turn or two. Most often, a draw just fails to come together when you're sitting around hoping to naturally draw something good. With this in mind, drawing an opener with no blue source is MUCH more likely to result in a mulligan than a hand with no black source. After all, you mostly need black the turn you go off, and then you have plentiful black from rituals. Against non counterbalance Brainstorm decks, it's often better to cantrip instead of casting discard for a couple reasons. They feel safer so might not cantrip for protection as hard. They might get mana constrained if they try to protect their hand. They have fewer cards in bin for Cruise. It also gives you better information - I've lost to Duressing their last counterspell, passing, and having them rip another plenty of times.

So I think it's unacceptable to have two nonU sources. It increases inconsistency. 2 Seas are sufficient. I do play a Verdant to have another fetch that can find a basic Swamp to virtually have more black sources.


against any tempo deck the best aproach is getting to a hand that makes this the combo turn.
Cast a bunch of rituals to negate theyr soft counters. Then therapy and duress theyr hard counters (you can also 1st discard then ritual or ritual in resp to soft counters. Then you go off and win. best aproach is load them with discard the turn you combo. Also therapying them of counters holding a duress back for the combo turn, the next turn is really good plan.

[phazonmutant]

against any tempo deck the best aproach is getting to a hand that makes this the combo turn.
Cast a bunch of rituals to negate theyr soft counters. Then therapy and duress theyr hard counters (you can also 1st discard then ritual or ritual in resp to soft counters. Then you go off and win. best aproach is load them with discard the turn you combo. Also therapying them of counters holding a duress back for the combo turn, the next turn is really good plan.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing with my assessment? It seems like you're agreeing that blue sources are important to set up for "getting to a hand that makes this the combo turn".

[sawatarix]

To be homest,i've never missed the additional blue land until now in my storm carreer.
All lands except Swamp and Bayou/Badlands produce blue and that's enough if you run 10 blue spells (I'm not counting Gitaxian Probe here because it's a zero mana spell most of the time)
What we really need are as many initial black sources as possible.You all know that duress into dark rituals+kill is a common play.If one of these spells get countered we still should be able to fire off other rituals during the same turn.
Smart players try to counter our rituals,keep that in mind.
Plus we don't want to waste our cantrips to search for black duals.
I already dislike games where i have island+tropical island with a hand full of black stuff.

[CabalTherapy]

To be homest,i've never missed the additional blue land until now in my storm carreer.
All lands except Swamp and Bayou/Badlands produce blue and that's enough if you run 10 blue spells (I'm not counting Gitaxian Probe here because it's a zero mana spell most of the time)
What we really need are as many initial black sources as possible.You all know that duress into dark rituals+kill is a common play.If one of these spells get countered we still should be able to fire off other rituals during the same turn.
Smart players try to counter our rituals,keep that in mind.
Plus we don't want to waste our cantrips to search for black duals.
I already dislike games where i have island+tropical island with a hand full of black stuff.

This Kai speaks straight from my heart.

Also, I don't want to be "dismissive" but I don't see an importance to run that discussion and I still belive that reasons are obvious. They just want to be set free by a thinking mind. (I expect someone searching for a flame here, but that is not my intent. :cool:)

ANT is UB where the majority of spells are black (+reasons members gave above). We don't even need U for the kill, therefore a second Tropical Island is strictly inferior to Bayou in the usual build and Badlands in the R-heavy build.

[sawatarix]

Straight from your Heart <3

#NoHomo

[GoblinZ]

Today first time playing legacy event with 15 or 16 players in HongKong and top 2nd winning a revised Savannah:wink:

Swiss：
2-0 win vs random deck. he is new to legacy so free win.
2-0 win vs reanimator. he made some mistakes imo so I beat him without difficulty
2-0 win vs infect. I think this mu is much favorable than delver variants.

Draw into top 4

Top 4:
2:0 win vs RUG or BURG delver. game one is pretty easy he mulliganed to five and only had spell snare. game two, he has surgical extraction, but thanks to it, I natrually tendrils him...

final:
1:2 lose vs DNT. game one I therapy his thalia and won. game two I had my PIF stuck in hand and if I drew a petal or a fetch for red mana I could go for it but I drew 2 tutor and 2 ritual in a row, pretty unlucky...game three I mulligan to six and had one ritual, led and tutor in hand, but never never...drew another ritual to go for it...


There were 3 MUD today and lukily I didnot face any one...I will play Hurkyl‘s recall next time, which I found may be also good against DNT, since you can bounce Cannonist and vial at the same time.

[Lemnear]

There were 3 MUD today and lukily I didnot face any one...I will play Hurkyl‘s recall next time, which I found may be also good against DNT, since you can bounce Cannonist and vial at the same time.

If you are fine to pay 3 mana against Thalia or Thorn, you can run Trygon which wins those matchups on it's own

[GoblinZ]

If you are fine to pay 3 mana against Thalia or Thorn, you can run Trygon which wins those matchups on it's own

I actually prepare for possible mud game with one echoing truth in sb, which I thought initially is more “versatile”, but it only turns out to be bad...I didn't board it in against DNT today, I know three is indeed too much...

I saw the interesting discussion on Trygon in TES thread, but I assume it is not a practical idea with port and wasteland online.

currently my sideboard plan against DNT is -3 duress -1 therapy -1 preordain +2 CoV +2 Dread of Night +1 Massacre, maybe you can help me improving my sideboarding, Lemnear.

[Lemnear]

I'm not a fan of DoN. Not because if fails to remove SFM, Revoker or Canonist, but because it also has zero application against UWR Delver or decks with Meddling Mage in general. I strickly prefer Massacre because you can sweep the whole UWR board (including Delver) for zero if they control a Tundra and gain plenty of time. Against D&T, you can opt to board Decays in addition if you don't want to spend more slots for dedicated creature removal in your sideboard, I guess

On Trygon: I dunno if Wasteland and Port are a real problem if you run Basics (fetch green dual the turn you plan to play Trygon) and Petals to power the bugger out. I sure dunno if 3 mana is acceptable for a 15-lands manabase

[GoblinZ]

I'm not a fan of DoN. Not because if fails to remove SFM, Revoker or Canonist, but because it also has zero application against UWR Delver or decks with Meddling Mage in general. I strickly prefer Massacre because you can sweep the whole UWR board (including Delver) for zero if they control a Tundra and gain plenty of time. Against D&T, you can opt to board Decays in addition if you don't want to spend more slots for dedicated creature removal in your sideboard, I guess

On Trygon: I dunno if Wasteland and Port are a real problem if you run Basics (fetch green dual the turn you plan to play Trygon) and Petals to power the bugger out. I sure dunno if 3 mana is acceptable for a 15-lands manabase

thank you very much! I agree massacre is much better than DoN. Unless you dedicate a lot of room of sb for DoN, it is not that great.

The only problem with Massacre I have is I fear it may make Ad Nauseam worse since there are several cards in library coverted 4cc...

Since I play grim tutor, maybe I can tutor for my single one massacre if necessary, but this never happened during my recent testing and gamings.

[Lemnear]

thank you very much! I agree massacre is much better than DoN. Unless you dedicate a lot of room of sb for DoN, it is not that great.

The only problem with Massacre I have is I fear it may make Ad Nauseam worse since there are several cards in library coverted 4cc...

Since I play grim tutor, maybe I can tutor for my single one massacre if necessary, but this never happened during my recent testing and gamings.

Tbh there are already plenty of miserable flips for AN in your deck (foremost the Grim) so unless you plan that AN works as an Autopilot win-con delivering 15+ cards and you are fine with it only drawing you a fresh, full grip which you convert into a PIF loop or a natural chain instead, everything is fine.

Edit: Congratulations! Barely forgot that one lol

[GoblinZ]

Thanks, very reasonable. Since I have both decks, I can begin some new tests on my own:tongue:

[GodsAreShining]

Hi all storm players!! Ive played this deck along time ago and after ive switched to show and tell xD now im looking to come back to ant but ive see all list are running grim tutor and my answer is that card can be changed with something else?? Thx all ^^

[JamieW89]

Hi all storm players!! Ive played this deck along time ago and after ive switched to show and tell xD now im looking to come back to ant but ive see all list are running grim tutor and my answer is that card can be changed with something else?? Thx all ^^

There are several options, depending on what you prefer:
- More Preordains
- (More) Sensei's Divining Top
- Second PiF or ToA, in semi-grinding station style.
- Second Ad Nauseam
- Lim-Dul's Vault
- Burning Wish (Probably run 3 or so then, but I don't like these lists.)

[Lemnear]

There are several options, depending on what you prefer:
- More Preordains
- (More) Sensei's Divining Top
- Second PiF or ToA, in semi-grinding station style.
- Second Ad Nauseam
- Lim-Dul's Vault
- Burning Wish (Probably run 3 or so then, but I don't like these lists.)

Second PIF. Not even close

[laserstone]

Second PIF. Not even close

Lemnear, what's your reasoning behind second PIF? It's not something I've often seen - I feel like a second Tendrils works well with natural chains and resiliency vs DRS, etc.

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, what's your reasoning behind second PIF? It's not something I've often seen - I feel like a second Tendrils works well with natural chains and resiliency vs DRS, etc.

Because it allows you to go off w/o IT in hand or in your graveyard by digging through your deck with flashbacked cantrips and allows you to create cardadvantage midgame via value-flashbacks for cantrips and discard galores just to finish your opponent later by flashbacking PIF itself

[Sloshthedark]

no need to post, Lemnear does all the work for me :wink: I can only back his words

PIF - actually interesting situation on SCG stream - R15G1 Briksza - Merriam, Briksza misplays with Agent... Merriam understands well his situation and Duresses turn earlier in hope of going off next turn drawing a mana, gets rewarded with DR and promptly goes for PIF, also good, but DR -> IT -> ToA is a food for thought, he does that too quickly for my liking, my instinct play would be IT-> LED (U) ... I need to reconstruct the situation to find what's better after his list gets published

also did Phazonmutant top 8 Vancouver classic?

[lordofthepit]

no need to post, Lemnear does all the work for me :wink: I can only back his words

PIF - actually interesting situation on SCG stream - R15G1 Briksza - Merriam, Briksza misplays with Agent... Merriam understands well his situation and Duresses turn earlier in hope of going off next turn drawing a mana, gets rewarded with DR and promptly goes for PIF, also good, but DR -> IT -> ToA is a food for thought, he does that too quickly for my liking, my instinct play would be IT-> LED (U) ... I need to reconstruct the situation to find what's better after his list gets published

also did Phazonmutant top 8 Vancouver classic?

I believe he made top 4.

[Surfinbird]

Hi to all of you. I've been playing storm for more than to years, since i was 16. For a year and a half i played the burning wish version of the deck that was popularized by Timo Schunemann in Ghent with some great results, like a top 4 in a 147 players tournament (January 2014 LCL), some top8s in 90-120 people tournaments and others in little ones and a 10th place in the Last Chance Trial of the BoM7 (427 players). Since July i've been playing the "preordain version" with 2 of them, 1 grim tutor and 7 discard spells. These lasts months i've good some good results but not as good as the previous (A top8 in a 70 people tournament and some X-0 in LGS). I must say that i've been quite unlicky in the 70+ ppl tournaments: i haven't won the first round of the last 6 ones, what is a ******* ****. Also, i think i've focused more in reading, discussing and learning than in testing, and i've noticced this in some difficult situations that i haven't been able to resolve.

Due to this, i've decided to begin some serious testing in Cockatrice, and my results this week are good, but could be better: 18-8:

Miracles: 2-2
Dark depths: 2-0
Deathblade: 1-1
Elves: 1-1
Jeskai Ascendancy: 1-1
ANT: 1-0
Jeskai blade: 1-0
Burn: 1-0
Jund: 1-0
Painters: 1-0
Dredge: 1-0
Junk rock: 1-0
Grixis delver: 1-0
Lands: 1-0
Big red:1-0
Affinity: 1-0
Patriot: 0-1
Sneak and show: 0-1
BRUG tempo: 0-1


The 18-8 result seems OK, but most of the wins are aggainst not tier1-2 decks, so i don't think the results are good enough to be very happy. I'll keep testing and writting down my results every week, so every sunday night/ monday i'll post them with some conclusions if I have something in mind. At the moment i must say that in the first games i noticed my lack of practice and commited some missplays that costed me games.

For reference, my list is this one:

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Grim Tutor
1 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal tutor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian probe
2 Preordain

4 Cabal therapy
3 Duress

4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Lotus petal

4 Polluted delta
2 Misty rainforest
2 Underground sea
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Verdant catacombs (I like having the same acces to blue and black, maybe i'm wrong but i've always been fine playing this configuration)
1 Volcanic island
1 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD:

3 Abrupt decay
3 Xantid swarm
2 Sensei's divining top
1 Krosan grip
1 Empty the warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Flusterstorm
1 Chain of vapor
1 Disfigure (It was the 2nd chain, but i noticed i only boarded chains to deal with creatures (1 is enough for leylines, and they are not common in my meta), and i prefered killing them, being able to reduce the pressure than having to wait till the last turn playing around a thalia, meddling, canonist or shaman.

I'll tell you my progress and results, the next important event i'll face is the January's Catalan League of Legacy on Saturday 24th!

[Togores]

Ross merriam leaved Elves to jump into a second place of last scg. Sad kid ape killed him in the finals.
Great result anyway.

[phazonmutant]

also did Phazonmutant top 8 Vancouver classic?

Mighty kind of you to notice! :laugh:

True, I top4'd the Vancouver Classic. It was only 36 players with few tier 1 decks, but it still counts for something I suppose.

R1 - White Stax 2-1. Yup. He mulliganned 4 times in the match. I did lose a game where he had lots of hate on the play, but multiple Decays + consistency prevailed.
R2 - ESG on Carpet of Flowers Maverick 2-0. He played a similar list to the one he split top 4 with last weekend (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15676&iddeck=116661), which turned out to be a bad meta call.
R3 - Affinity 2-0. He boarded in 13 cards, but you have to draw them, and I drew a fine anti-hate hand that won on turn 3 through Crypt.
R4 - UR Delver 2-0. He had very little interaction game 1, and I won with a single Duress despite me drawing 5 lands and no LEDs. He did have Therapies post-board, but I played the control and Therapied him for Pyromancer. That forced him in a position to strip me of a guaranteed win by sac'ing his only threat, but I cantripped into a kill before he drew any pressure.
R5 ID
R6 ID
Top 8 is 2 Mono-U Omniscience, 2 ANT, 2 Miracles, 1 UR Delver, 1 Reanimator. Very strange. Lots of combo in the room, very little Delver or U/W/x Stoneblade from what I could see. Unfortunately the only X-2 that could make it, Bill Stark, won his match and made the brackets such that I played Miracles twice.

Quarters - Tom on Miracles 2-0. He's on The Source, but I forget his name. We had interesting games where he didn't lock me out with Counterbalance. Game 2 I Topped to set up a bait Ad Nauseam cast off 5 lands, then cantripped 4 times and cast a few mana spells to tutor for Tendrils for exactly lethal (with Rest in Peace in play).
Semis - Miracles 0-2. He apparently plays against Bill pretty often at work (at WotC). Game 1 I could have won through the Counterbalance he hid on top and then played, but I was forced to go for it when he revealed a Top. I was 75% sure he had a blue card for a Force I knew about, but it wasn't getting better. He had it. Game 2 he seemed to draw exactly the right card 3 of 4 draw steps. I Duressed him seeing Force, Ponder, Surgical, Swords to Plowshares, Mystic Gate, Volcanic, Plains. Next turn I Duressed the Force he drew. The next turn, he Pondered into Counterbalance. I Grim Tutored for Decay. He drew another Counterbalance (blind). I Infernal Tutored another Decay. He played Clique to take the Decay I tutored for. I then lost to a no-win situation of pressure + 2 Counterbalance + Top. Very frustrating.

I was happy with the swap of Massacre to Sensei's Top. Top is still great against Miracles. And to segue to something that had been discussed in the thread:


I'm not a fan of DoN. Not because if fails to remove SFM, Revoker or Canonist, but because it also has zero application against UWR Delver or decks with Meddling Mage in general. I strickly prefer Massacre because you can sweep the whole UWR board (including Delver) for zero if they control a Tundra and gain plenty of time. Against D&T, you can opt to board Decays in addition if you don't want to spend more slots for dedicated creature removal in your sideboard, I guess

I was totally onboard with your reasoning a month ago. I've played Massacre in a couple large events now though and I really don't think Massacre is necessary against UW/x decks. Chain of Vapor is fine because they don't really have that many hate permanents, Meddling Mage is usually able to be played through (no matter what they name), and they don't always draw it. It's also not great against Maverick, which is by far the hardest of the hate bear matchups. In that matchup, the actual trump is to cantrip into Dread of Night and then tutor for another. That basically hard-locks them, and it's trivial to win from there, no matter how many resources you expend.

And to address an ongoing discussion:

To be homest,i've never missed the additional blue land until now in my storm carreer.
All lands except Swamp and Bayou/Badlands produce blue and that's enough if you run 10 blue spells (I'm not counting Gitaxian Probe here because it's a zero mana spell most of the time)
What we really need are as many initial black sources as possible.You all know that duress into dark rituals+kill is a common play.If one of these spells get countered we still should be able to fire off other rituals during the same turn.
Smart players try to counter our rituals,keep that in mind.

The key difference in how we look at it is the opener vs. going off. A hand with a blue source, cantrip, and anything else (pretty much) is a snap keep. A hand with a black source and enough black spells to kill is a keep, although sketchier unless you have protection. A hand with a black source, no kill is not a keep, regardless if you have a cantrip or not. By playing the maximum number of blue lands, I reduce the inconsistency in openers, which I believe is the easiest place to lose. ANT mulligans ok, but not that great.

Honestly once you keep the hand with a cantrip that you can cast, I don't expect to have problems finding black sources. You don't even need that many initial black sources. Since your rituals are black, you can get away with only having one black IMS - if they counter it, then they've traded one-for-one, and that's usually fine. But honestly most often you can have two between Lotus Petals and just playing more lands.


Plus we don't want to waste our cantrips to search for black duals.
I already dislike games where i have island+tropical island with a hand full of black stuff.

That seems like a personal block. I'm more than happy to cantrip for more lands in many matchups. Just cantripping to hit land drops enables threshold and sets up cantrip Past in Flames lines, so it's definitely not doing nothing.

[Sloshthedark]

Ross merriam leaved Elves to jump into a second place of last scg. Sad kid ape killed him in the finals.
Great result anyway.

His play was pleasant surprise for me (he held is cards too close to evaluate those oddly timed Brainstorms), I'm kind of glad for us he did not win - preserving the RUG good on ANT myth



Mighty kind of you to notice! :laugh:

I was totally onboard with your reasoning a month ago. I've played Massacre in a couple large events now though and I really don't think Massacre is necessary against UW/x decks. Chain of Vapor is fine because they don't really have that many hate permanents, Meddling Mage is usually able to be played through (no matter what they name), and they don't always draw it. It's also not great against Maverick, which is by far the hardest of the hate bear matchups. In that matchup, the actual trump is to cantrip into Dread of Night and then tutor for another. That basically hard-locks them, and it's trivial to win from there, no matter how many resources you expend.

That seems like a personal block. I'm more than happy to cantrip for more lands in many matchups. Just cantripping to hit land drops enables threshold and sets up cantrip Past in Flames lines, so it's definitely not doing nothing.

Saw you R4 online so I figred out top8 ANT is likely you, congrats

MM + CoV - Pyroblast,
DoN - I often found it embarassing vs Maverick, you have to land both fast to not get one blown by Quasali Pridemage and you're spending your turns fighting on totaly different front instead on winning while Kotr, ScOoze and DRS are killing you, and when you need to draw bussiness you draw those DoN - that was my impression playing DoN several times, on the other hand there is no easy solution, Maverick is hard

Islands - I find 2 Island as a sign of bad deckbuilding, Island+Trop is acceptable compromise but I can't imagine playing 2 Trops, beyond opening hand I kind of want my Tropical to be a Bayou but to not dare to play 3 B lands unless in Miracles paradise


EDIT
reading through the SCG Day 2 list fast and roughly ~4/19 UR played a B splash, starting around 40th place which is good



PIF - actually interesting situation on SCG stream - R15G1 Briksza - Merriam, Briksza misplays with Agent... Merriam understands well his situation and Duresses turn earlier in hope of going off next turn drawing a mana, gets rewarded with DR and promptly goes for PIF, also good, but DR -> IT -> ToA is a food for thought, he does that too quickly for my liking, my instinct play would be IT-> LED (U) ... I need to reconstruct the situation to find what's better after his list gets published?

goldfished the situation ( 28: 14:30 (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/609382072)) and both lines look about equal, it was so close I did that second time (20 times both)
IT-> ToA = GP-> land/ritual, ponder into ritual, GP into ritual - 32/40
IT -> LED (UUUB, 2 lands untapped) = Preordain, Preordain, Ponder, GP, GP, Brainstorm 33/40

[TheHeff]

Hi all! I'm fairly new to the deck but have done a lot of reading here and various linked articles (Karsten, Kai), and I've been running this list recently on MTGO:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
1x Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands

4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm

4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Preordain
1x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress

4x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Extirpate
2x Flusterstorm
2x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Xantid Swarm

I'm loving the deck so far, still working on tweaking SB for the MTGO meta and getting a solid gameplan for SB'ing in general (Karsten's article is an amazing resource). My question is this: Ad Nauseam often feels like our worst engine and I often find myself wanting to cut it against UR Delver (very popular on MTGO). Is a second PiF in this spot too redundant?

[nevilshute]

Hi all! I'm fairly new to the deck but have done a lot of reading here and various linked articles (Karsten, Kai), and I've been running this list recently on MTGO:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
1x Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands

4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm

4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Preordain
1x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress

4x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Extirpate
2x Flusterstorm
2x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Xantid Swarm

I'm loving the deck so far, still working on tweaking SB for the MTGO meta and getting a solid gameplan for SB'ing in general (Karsten's article is an amazing resource). My question is this: Ad Nauseam often feels like our worst engine and I often find myself wanting to cut it against UR Delver (very popular on MTGO). Is a second PiF in this spot too redundant?

If you're not running AN then 2x Past in Flames is definitely a viable strategy. Going off with tutor + rituals + LED with a PiF in hand will often allow you to power straight through one hard counter.

It weakens your game one versus other combo decks, and I wouldn't cut the AN without adding a main deck Empty... But that's just me.

Edit: I'd always have the AN somewhere in the 75, so if not in the main then in the sideboard.

[Togores]

I ike Nauseam main deck, helps vs a lot of decks.
Usualy vs Ur I just go g1 the pif route and post board I side out the nauseam and side in a second tendrills.

Its quite easy to tendrills them or doublé tendrills them after some kind of cantrips and counterwars.

That my list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15070&iddeck=112035

[Surfinbird]

How many permament hate do you side against Patriot, Deathblade and Jeskai blade? I do it this way: (My sideboard is 3 decay, 3 xantid, 2 tops, 1 disfigure, 1 chain, 1 massacre, 1 pyroclasm, 1 krosan 1 empty the warrens, 1 flusterstorm)

PATRIOT: (3)
+1 Massacre +1 Disfigure +1 Abrupt decay
-1 preordain -1 cabal ritual -1 X (probably a second preordain, maybe should be a grim tutor but i like it to look for massacre, and patriot isn't as fast as canadian so it's ok as a tutor)

I think 3 cards at needed because they usually have 3 or 4 meddling mages. In my case, i prefer decay over pyroclasm or chain because it kills and can't be countered.

DEATHBLADE AND JESKAI BLADE: (2)
+1 Massacre +1 Pyroclasm +2 SDT
-2 preordain -1 Cabal ritual -1 Lotus petal

They don't play soft counters (2-3 pierces only) so i think pyroclasm is better than decay or disfigure here. I don't know if I should play a third card to beat permanents, probably one Decay.


I think this is an interesting point to discuss, i'd like to know your opinions and how do you sideboard against these 3 pairings.

[Togores]

Against patriot with wasteland i side in the 2 massacres a second tendrills and 2 carpets.
For nauseam, 2 petals 1 sensei 1 preordain.

Against bbd patriot. i side in 1 tendrills 3 decay for preordain 1 sensei 2 petals (I havent tested this matchup yet (havent only played vs delver patriot all time))

Against deathblade 2 massacre for preordain and may be a petal or a sensei (im not sure)

Also depends a lot on the deathblade. If they have more or less counters. More or less wastelands. More or less discard. More or less permanent hate. Its an easy mathup if they didnt get drs 1st turn. But is dificult to side right because the deck has too many options.

[theross]

Slosh: Do you remember the games in which my Brainstorm timing was suspect? I'd likely be able to remember some part of the game state and offer my own insight.

As for game 1 against Rudy, I wanted to IT for ToA right away because the cantrips would turn off the IT. If I missed off both the 1st Probe and Ponder then my plan was actually to cast Brainstorm since I can still find an LED off of that to win by stashing the ToA on top and sacrificing LED with the 2nd Probe on the stack. I can also find land and any Ritual among the Probe, random draw from Ponder, and 3 cards from Brainstorm to complete the combo. Without a Brainstorm in the graveyard then I prefer cantripping before the IT because it leaves LED as a live draw but with a Brainstorm still there I'd rather make sure my IT works if I brick on the first Probe.

[laserstone]

For what matchups is the Empty the Warrens sided in?

[lordofthepit]

For those of you who have tried City of Solitude, Defense Grid, and Xantid Swarm, do the cards serve the same function across different matchups?

City of Solitude is clearly much better against Miracles and probably all sorts of midrange Stoneblade decks, but I'm wondering if you'd bring in City of Solitude or Defense Grid against combo decks like Reanimator or Show and Tell where Xantid Swarm also shines. Do you also like City against URx Delver decks? I'm pretty happy with just the discard suite and a couple SB Chain of Vapors to hedge against permanent-based grave hate (nothing like Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers).

[CabalTherapy]

For those of you who have tried City of Solitude, Defense Grid, and Xantid Swarm, do the cards serve the same function across different matchups?

City of Solitude is clearly much better against Miracles and probably all sorts of midrange Stoneblade decks, but I'm wondering if you'd bring in City of Solitude or Defense Grid against combo decks like Reanimator or Show and Tell where Xantid Swarm also shines. Do you also like City against URx Delver decks? I'm pretty happy with just the discard suite and a couple SB Chain of Vapors to hedge against permanent-based grave hate (nothing like Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers).

No, I play 3x City and 2xSwarm and I strictly differentiate between them in certain MUs. (Plus, I don't like Grid as much as Kai.)
City of Solitude also is only good against slowish decks without clock or manadenial plan. Swarm costs only one mana and that makes him in my mind indispensable as a possibility to
fight Reanimator or especially Show and Tell based decks.

Conclusively, I never board City against Delver and preferr Swarm against combo stuff. CC1 disruption is mightier against them = Duress effects.

[Lemnear]

For those of you who have tried City of Solitude, Defense Grid, and Xantid Swarm, do the cards serve the same function across different matchups?

City of Solitude is clearly much better against Miracles and probably all sorts of midrange Stoneblade decks, but I'm wondering if you'd bring in City of Solitude or Defense Grid against combo decks like Reanimator or Show and Tell where Xantid Swarm also shines. Do you also like City against URx Delver decks? I'm pretty happy with just the discard suite and a couple SB Chain of Vapors to hedge against permanent-based grave hate (nothing like Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers).

It's stupid to board Grid against Reanimator. Not only because it blocks your defensive Brainstorms against their Thoughtseizes, but also because they run Sol lands to cast their FoWs through the Grid, which is backbreaking if Griselbrand is already on the table, which means that your combo-window is limited to the turn after they tapped out to get the Demon into play.

[sawatarix]

Cabal Therapy and Lemnear are totally right here, can't add more.

Xantid Swarm is for fast combodecks with counterbackup.

Defense Grid is against Delverdecks and Midrange decks.

City of Solitude is against slow deck with a ton of counterbackup.

I prefer Defense Grid because there are a lot more delverdecks around than slow controldecks like landstill and miracle decks.

[GoblinZ]

I never like defense grid.

We do not have sol land and it is hard to play around soft counters...I don't see why not just play discard.

[Surfinbird]

I agree with GoblinZ, i've never tested it in ANT and maybe the results are surprising, but it can get countered by all the soft and hard counters (with the exception of flusterstorm). You must have 4 lands into play to play it around pierce and daze, what is a bit difficult due to wasteland and stifle. Also, if you've got 4 lands it's possible that they can play around grid leaving 3+ lands untapped:(

[emidln]

I agree with GoblinZ, i've never tested it in ANT and maybe the results are surprising, but it can get countered by all the soft and hard counters (with the exception of flusterstorm). You must have 4 lands into play to play it around pierce and daze, what is a bit difficult due to wasteland and stifle. Also, if you've got 4 lands it's possible that they can play around grid leaving 3+ lands untapped:(

Having Defense Grid as your only protection is the most miserable thing in the world past turn 2. Further, as we play alternate disruption that requires no mana commitment from our opponent, Defense Grid and Duress on the combo turn isn't even all that likely to beat your opponent.

[sawatarix]

Guys, don't get me wrong.I'm not telling here that Defense Grid is a totally awesome card and you should play it because i do.
Call it rather an experiment, such as Young Pyromancer during Bazaar of Moxen during May 2014.

Ant has such a well-adjusted maindeck with all tools we need to go off though defense that we actually just need a few slots in the sideboard to concentrate on decks with weird angles of attack such as permanents.
In my opinion we don't even NEED more than 7-8 cards in our sideboard and everyone knows that boarding more than 3-4 cards could bite us as the deck gets slower and clunkier.
Remember back in July on the 'Prague Eternal I' main event last year when i fought through 8 Delver decks with no additional discard/defense grids/city of solitude in my sideboard.
Only lost 1 round of them while defeating the other 7.
What i try to say is that additional discard/protection is not absolutely essential in our deck so we get some sideboard slots to test some weird stuff from Young Pyromancer, Extirpate or Vendillion CLique or whatever comes in your mind.
So is Defense Grid, just a fancy and goodlooking card (if it's foil)
:tongue:

[Rokkastut]

I ike Nauseam main deck, helps vs a lot of decks.
Usualy vs Ur I just go g1 the pif route and post board I side out the nauseam and side in a second tendrills.

Its quite easy to tendrills them or doublé tendrills them after some kind of cantrips and counterwars.

That my list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15070&iddeck=112035

I find this quite amusing. I have, with some assistance from CK, tweaked this deck for almost a year now. Only to find, with my changes this week, that our md is identical -1 Duress, +1 Therapy and that our sb have 13/15 similar cards. I guess great minds think alike. My next legacy tournament is 1st of February, 4 swiss + top 4, I will post a report.

Edit; same as link in my sig, but changed manabase to support g instead of r and took out 1 AD and 1 XS for 2 COF in sb.

[Togores]

I find this quite amusing. I have, with some assistance from CK, tweaked this deck for almost a year now. Only to find, with my changes this week, that our md is identical -1 Duress, +1 Therapy and that our sb have 13/15 similar cards. I guess great minds think alike. My next legacy tournament is 1st of February, 4 swiss + top 4, I will post a report.

Edit; same as link in my sig, but changed manabase to support g instead of r and took out 1 AD and 1 XS for 2 COF in sb.

I have been playing this same list more or less 9 months. Tested other options amd they always feelt worser. Sb also uses to include 2 grips.

What is cof?

[grmpytopdecker]

CoF is Carpet of Flowers, I imagine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rokkastut]

CoF is Carpet of Flowers, I imagine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct. I usually use full names and proper grammar, but sometimes very late, and on my phone, I deviate from this rule. Sorry.

I only boarded in 4 Abrupt Decay against Miracles, and Carpet of Flowers is also good against them. So 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Xantid Swarm, 2 Carpet of Flowers and sometimes 1 Entreat the Angels against Miracles.

What other matchups do you feel Carpet of Flowers really shines?

Have a nice weekend!

[Shaman]

I have been trying for a couple of weeks a singleton Noxious Revival in my list, that's quite a stock list, in place of 1 preordain (so 1 grim 1 sensei main). I find it really strong, against discard or after ad nauseam, expecially when you pif with 0 mana left you can recycle led with GP. Aside corner cases it seems quite powerful. Has anybody of you tried it?

[sawatarix]

What....the hell?! ;D
That's a troll post, isn't it?

[Shaman]

I don't know why this should sound as a troll post. It has pretty useful application considering free cantrips and sensei for example. I have also just found some lists on tc decks that used it in a storm shell, and aside been innovating it covers so many scenarios. Pls explain why this is soooooo bad, I have played a lot of games with it as singleton on MODO and you can look at me like Obama meme saying "not bad".
Really, pls explain.

[Lemnear]

I don't know why this should sound as a troll post. It has pretty useful application considering free cantrips and sensei for example. I have also just found some lists on tc decks that used it in a storm shell, and aside been innovating it covers so many scenarios. Pls explain why this is soooooo bad, I have played a lot of games with it as singleton on MODO and you can look at me like Obama meme saying "not bad".
Really, pls explain.

Because in the best case scenario you pay 4 life and two cards for a Regrowth. That's .... not impressive

[Sloshthedark]

What....the hell?! ;D
That's a troll post, isn't it?

I also have it in my Storm binder, the card has some future potential, It's good to be reminded of it's existence, I haven't found useful application yet (not that I looked for much, but future printing or total reinvention of deck/different deck might like it) but if it works for someone, Shaman got my attention, from my point of view it's rather weak on it's own and can't really imagine which situations I'd like systematicaly to play it or what for, above all it's a card disadvantage which I really hate in Ant, imo even mystical tutor wont cut it as a 4of in current state of things
_______________

EDIT

obscure list for your amusement http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/259164#online, 5C = no PH33R

[Shaman]

My testing so far has revealed many scenarios it is actually useful in. The best is not a 4 lives regrowth!
Some of them from the top of my memory... most of them corner cases as seen by their own but quite frequent if you look at all of them:
- answer to vendillion when ritualing into infernal;
- answer to discard on key spell;
- "upkeep" regrowth when topdeck mode on;
- new land when mana screwed;
- resolved past in flames, no mana available (quite often it happens): led on top then gitaxian into it
- resolved nauseam, forced to look for IT or LED: you may stop earlier revealing cards, so 2 or 4 lives is a good replacement instead of keep on revealing into possible death. If you reveal noxious with AN it gives many more options, you'll see.
- answer to surgical or rip or DRS on key resources when assembling pif combo
- sinergic with top...
- makes counterbalance fizzle if not paired with top;
- slow down opponents draw (land on top?);
- recycle discard when needed...

It is ok looking at it as a "Mystical tutor-like" card. Many times weaker, many times stronger.
I agree more than a singleton is poor.

You cannot see it as a 4 lives regrowth because it is instant and you don't need mana sources: just these two things make all the difference.

Anyway I am not advocating everybody should run this. I simply ask for opinions to share thoughts and give hints to who likes innovating (that's the reason why I read this forum).

EDIT: I usually side it out in many MU, it shines maindeck in my opinion. Added comments.

[Togores]

Today another sad 3-3 at my legacy event. Due to the rise of reanimator I changed both carpets of flowers for extirpates, im not sure if they are better than surgical, but was neat to have them.
Im also thinkin of cutting a sensei for a preordain beacuse its faster. But i dont like to waste a sb slot for it u.u.

R1 uwbg drs tnn geist noble deck 2-1
He mull to 5. And starts with usea drs. I have a 0 mana floating nauseam stop on 6 and his wasteland plus drs plus no ims plus fow on my ritual (he drew the blue card) wins him the game.

G2 i have another t1 nauseam now with mana. And gg
G3 he missplays all time removing in his turn land with drs instead of leavingg up. And pif comes. And gg.

R2 loose to ur standstill 1-2
G1 win
G2 nullrod plus counters
G3 standstill plus presure plus counters

R3 win ur 2-0
G1 he disnt force my ritual so i duress and go off
G2 he didnt therapy my tutor qith falshback when i was just missing one mana.

R4 mud 1-2
G1 he starts slow i duress his chalice
G2 2 chalice 2 trinisphere plus lodestone and me on one land and a t2 hand didnt get there.
G3 chalice on 1 for my t2 hand thats need a dr wins.

R4 reanimator 2-1
G1 he griselbrands. Draws. Atacks goes to 11. I storm and infernal he decides not to draw cards and dies.
G2 he mulls to 6 makes a t1 grisel and t2 iona
G3 i discard his entomb and he never gets there.


Lately i have been having not so great results, chalice, mud and reanimator are beeing harsh decks to play vs. Will neeed to improve in some way. Also ppl sidding much more cards against combo is not nice. Today a guy was playing in his esper blade. Sb notion and thalias.

Tomorrow if I wake up I will play tes. Lets see if I miss the basics like usualy (love to not been wasteland dead).

[Shaman]

Definetely 2 sensei's divining top maindeck are not the best configuration in very fast metagames: for the same reasons (heavy presence of reanimators in MTGO metagame) I switched back to only one, having the second one become first one preordain then noxious revival. I am also debating Grim Tutor slot, but I guess it is a necessary evil.
I consider surgical superior to extirpate in many different situations, and superior as a specif answer for other MU (storm mirror and dredge mainly).

About noxious: yesterday during the daily I am paired against dredge. My hand is petal land duress gitaxian ritual nauseam noxious. Land + duress tells me the path is clear but there's an high chance things gat nasty because of double leds and faithless looting and dredgers...so I go petal ritual noxious targeting ritual gp ritual nauseam from 16. Another sweet corner case, I would say. In another match I have grim in my hand along with noxious and cabal ritual, with topin play. I need the win but cabal plus grim alone don't get me there... so cabal (threshold) noxoius switch with top cabal again grim tendrils.Again, another corner case. Again, useful.I am sold on it for the moment.

[Surfinbird]

Hi! As I said a week ago, i'm hard-testing in cockatice to prepare the first tournaments of the year. After the matches of this week (the second one) the results are:

FIRST WEEK: 18-8 (69%)
SECOND WEEK: 30-8 (79%)
TOTAL: 48-16 (75%)

STORM TESTING
VS MIRACLES: 6-3
VS TEAM AMERICA
VS UR DELVER 2-0
VS DEATHBLADE: 1-1
VS JESKAI STONEBLADE: 2-0
VS PATRIOT: 0-1
VS ANT: 2-0
VS OMMITELL
VS SNEAK ATTACK 0-1
VS CANADIAN 2-1
VS BRUG TEMPO: 0-1
VS DEATH AND TAXES: 5-1
VS REANIMATOR: 1-0
VS GWB ZENITH: 2-1
VS UW STONEBLADE 2-0
VS BURN: 1-0
VS JUND: 1-0
VS BUG SHARDLESS 1-1
VS MUD
VS ELVES: 3-1
VS PAINTERS: 1-0
VS DREDGE: 2-0
VS JUNK ROCK 2-0
VS GRIXIS DELVER 1-0
VS GRIXIS CONTROL 1-1
VS STIFLENOUGHT: 1-0
VS NIC FIT 1-0
VS LANDS: 1-0
VS BIG RED: 1-0
VS DARK DEPTHS 2-1
VS JESKAI ASCENDANCY 1-1
VS AFFINITY: 1-0
VS SLIVERS: 1-0
VS GOBLIN STOMPY 0-1

As you see, I've played against a long variety of decks, so i can't take conclusions about most of the pairings. I must say that 2 tops, 3 decays, 1 krosan and 1 empty the warrens are working well against miracles, and also 2 decays, 1 massacre, 1 pyroclasm, 1 disfigure and 1 chain of vapor against death and taxes. Remember that i play 2 preordains, 1 grim tutor and 7 discard spells. No tops in the main.


Playing with regularity is so important with this deck, and i've noticed it a lot in the results (I began with a 7-7 the first week). I'll keep working to prepare the first catalan league of legacy of the year (Saturday 24, 80-100 players). After being the 4th of the league in 2014, I'll storm for the victory this year!

[Togores]

^you only test g1?

If so its easy to get a really hight percentage. But if you dont play with side I think the g2-3 are the dificult ones. Decks loose most of they bad cards and gain thinks like hatebears. Thorns, discard and so on.

[Surfinbird]

^you only test g1?

If so its easy to get a really hight percentage. But if you dont play with side I think the g2-3 are the dificult ones. Decks loose most of they bad cards and gain thinks like hatebears. Thorns, discard and so on.

No, no! I obviously play complete rounds, otherwise testing wouldn't make any sense :laugh: the results are counting the rounds won/lost

[Togores]

Ok, then its better ^^
Thanks 👍

[aRSKOG]

Hello people

I'm new in here and I'm new to the awesome format Legacy. But I've been playing Modern seriously for the past 2 years or so.
I've made my 3rd Legacy deck after struggling around figuring where my shelf is. First i tried Affinity which was just meh. Then i played alot of Punishing Fire Nic Fit which was fairly okay but it wasn't the thing for me. So i did borrow a deck from a friend of mine to play at the local. It happened to be Ad Nauseum Tendrils combo.. and i was sold! This deck is insane! and oh boy it's fun to play.

So i decided i wanted ANT as my Legacy deck and I've been working on it for 2 months now. My List is the following

Lands: (15)
2 Watery Grave (1 Underground Sea inc)
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp

I'm saving money to be able to get the proper Duals, for now i manage to borrow them or if I can't I just play with my shocks (yes its bad i know). I have been looking around for alternative rootes to a manabase which would be a bit cheaper and i found that some list runs Gemstone Mine. So it might be an optien? I don't know. Right now I'm Shocking myself to losses but it's okay, rather play and lose than not play at all :) - I really need some help to get rid of those shock lands as fast as possible. Atm i paid (currently waiting for it to arrive) for 1 Underground Sea, and I'm planning to buy my second one in february. When I'm done with seas i go for Volcanic Island then Bayou. But is there a rute which could be faster? like playing the Gemstone Mines etc. I can't effort more than 1 dual a month i believe (depends on my sales ofc).

Mainboard:(45)

Singletons:
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Ad Nauseam

Cantrips:
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Preordain
1x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Gitaxian Probe

Tutors:
4x Infernal Tutor

Rituals:
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual

Discard:
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress

So far I'm happy about my mainboard. I'm not sure if it's right to play 4 Therapy or 4 Duress, might be better with 4 Duress. I just like Gitaxian Probe + Therapy alot! It really got potential to cripple the opponent. And for the Grim Tutor my priority is to get my duals, so till that happens i will not play Grim Tutor, maybe after.

Now we're at my real issue, the sideboarding! I dont know exactly what i want to play, and the sideboard guide on this guide seems a bit outdated. So my request is if any have a sideboard + guide/plan ready to use? I know there is alot of adjustment to the meta etc, so here is a list of a few decks i know is being played at my local:

Ad Nauseam Tendrils Combo
The Epic Storm
Nic Fit (Punishing and Scapeshift variants)
UR Delver
Esper Stoneblade
UW Standstill
Mono red Blood Moon deck (no clue what it is called, but T1 Blood Moon / chalice is commen)
MUD
Lands
Death and Taxes
Goblins
Shardless BUG

At the moment my sideboard is the following:

Sideboard: (11)
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Chains of Vapor
2x Massacre
1x Tendrils of Agony

The rest of the spots I'm not sure about, but im thinking 2x Flusterstorm would be a good pick for the mirror. Storm is very popular at my local, so it might as well be a good idea to unclude 2x Surgical Extractions?

I need help for futher progress :)
Thanks alot

[nevilshute]

Welcome to ANT :smile:

So a few thoughts:

- Making duals your priority over something like Grim Tutor is 100 % correct. Sadly, this deck does not play particularily well with shocklands. Although in many situations it won't be an issue, it is only logical that a deck that seeks to win through Ad Nauseam a non-trivial amount of the time will suffer from shocklands.

- Sideboarding: It is hard to offer hard and fast rules but I'd say the following about certain cards:

- Xantid Swarm: this is mainly in our sideboard to come in against Show and Tell decks. If Show and Tell decks are very popular in your meta I could see going with three Swarms although I can't remember the last time I did so. I think usually two is the correct number. In Show and Tell free environments I've been happy to not run swarms at all.

The swarms can be brought in against Miracles to good effect as well, but it is always a gamble to bring them in against decks that can still be packing creature removal post-board. Some miracle pilots might board out every removal card, but many of them know that we are likely to have something to remove post-board, be that Dark Confidant, Young Pyromancer or Xantid Swarm. Let's be perfectly clear: spending your turn casting Xantid Swarm to have it be removed by a bolt or Swords to Plowshares is terrible. If it hadn't been Swarm but instead a discard spell or cantrip then it would have been +1 useful card in your hand and +1 dead card in they hand. For this reason many ANT players will not bring in swarm against bolt.deck. I sometimes will bring it in for one of the sideboarded matches (if I won game 1) but not for the other. This can confuse your opponent and the swarm - if unanswered - is insane against a hand full of dazes, pierces and flusterstorms.

- Abrupt Decay: This is 90 % in our board to remove Counterbalance. I like to also bring in a couple in combination with Massacre against blue hatebear decks unless I've seen wastelands game one. Again... if Miracles is everywhere I'd consider going up to four decays. If Miracles disappears, I'd consider playing none and just going up on Chain of Vapor. The latter scenario has not come up for as long as I can remember.

Just a couple of thoughts.

[Pox22]

If I had to run ANT with shocks, I would drop Ad Nauseam for a 2nd Past in Flames and the Top for a md Empty the Warrens. It's defensible choice to begin with, and the decreased reliance on your life total plays goes nicely with having to play with shocklands.

[Firefight]

Treasure Cruise is banned from Legacy , is this good or bad for us?

[Sloshthedark]

If I had to run ANT with shocks, I would drop Ad Nauseam for a 2nd Past in Flames and the Top for a md Empty the Warrens. It's defensible choice to begin with, and the decreased reliance on your life total plays goes nicely with having to play with shocklands.

this, Gemstone Mine can't be searched for, that's the problem, 1 USea will ease the situation greatly so it's probably playable with shocklands but in a deck playing on an edge of life(time)/death it is a serious disadvantage


Banlist update is unfortunate for Ant, TC off the list with DTT still in is a net loss compared with september (S+T, Deathblade, UBG), Storm paradise lost...


Treasure Cruise is banned from Legacy , is this good or bad for us?

this was the best metagame since printing of Thalia...

[CabalTherapy]

this, Gemstone Mine can't be searched for, that's the problem, 1 USea will ease the situation greatly so it's probably playable with shocklands but in a deck playing on an edge of life(time)/death it is a serious disadvantage


Banlist update is unfortunate for Ant, TC off the list with DTT still in is a net loss compared with september (S+T, Deathblade, UBG), Storm paradise lost...

Nice Milton reference, Martin. I don't see a huge problem. ANT was a very good deck before Khans and it will be still one of the best after TC.

Yes, Gemstone Mine sucks big time. ^^

[Sloshthedark]

Nice Milton reference, Martin. I don't see a huge problem. ANT was a very good deck before Khans and it will be still one of the best after TC.

Yes, Gemstone Mine sucks big time. ^^

Sure will be, only I'd largely prefer facing UR and UWR to Team America and Deathblade

[Firefight]

I think this will justify acquiring a Grim Tutor for my deck, as it becomes slightly more necessary, and less painful as we won't be facing that many Aggro decks like UR

[ThomasDowd]

Treasure Cruise is banned from Legacy , is this good or bad for us?

slightly bad as UR delver takes a hit and people probably move back to rug.

the treasure cruise decks permission suite was typically force/ daze only, which is trivial to beat. all the decks pushed out by cruise decks now come back (BUG, RUG, CB) which all run more diverse permission/ disruption suites.

it will be slightly more difficult, depends on if you view this as a good or bad thing. RUG is still pretty even, BUG is atrocious. if BUG(hymn) comes back strong then storm is not so great of a choice .

[Togores]

So now with a new meta. Im gonna include the second top because the diacard is gonna come back.
I was willin to play tes due to his faster aproach vs the new rise of combo decks. But now with discard and wasteland back. Basic lands are immba cool.
Gonna still play tes friday and see what happens.
Death and taxes rise? Bug delver? Shardless? Miracles? Rug? Less omni more sneak and show?

Fight!

[Firefight]

So now with a new meta. Im gonna include the second top because the diacard is gonna come back.
I was willin to play tes due to his faster aproach vs the new rise of combo decks. But now with discard and wasteland back. Basic lands are immba cool.
Gonna still play tes friday and see what happens.
Death and taxes rise? Bug delver? Shardless? Miracles? Rug? Less omni more sneak and show?

Fight!


What is your mana base configuration for this next meta? would 2 basics do it? or would you play 2 island 1 swamp

[Togores]

Im gonna play my usual deck same configuration. Always think that 2 island is the shitt.

Storming opp is always the same.

[aRSKOG]

@Nevilshute

So basically what you think of this:

2 Xantid Swams - i've seen both Omnitell and Sneak & Show in my local too
3 Abrupt Decay - should do as we only have 1 Miracle player?
1 Tendrils of Agony - against miracle
2 Massacre - against creature decks
3 Chains of Vapor - against hate
1 Empty the Warrens - against Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extractions - mirror match (should be flusterstorm, but havent got those)
1 Empty spot, could be Sensei's Divining Top

I think i try with this, and figure out how that goes, and my second Undeground Sea is incomming. What should i go for next? Badlands, Bayou, Volcanic or Tutor?
I'm still a bit curious about the mana base. I've seen lists play Badlands and Tropical Island or Bayou and Tropical. what is the right card? Badlands is cheaper but Bayou is better?

The obviously is:
8 Fetch
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 ??
1 ??

[CabalTherapy]

@Nevilshute

So basically what you think of this:

2 Xantid Swams - i've seen both Omnitell and Sneak & Show in my local too
3 Abrupt Decay - should do as we only have 1 Miracle player?
1 Tendrils of Agony - against miracle
2 Massacre - against creature decks
3 Chains of Vapor - against hate
1 Empty the Warrens - against Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extractions - mirror match (should be flusterstorm, but havent got those)
1 Empty spot, could be Sensei's Divining Top

I think i try with this, and figure out how that goes, and my second Undeground Sea is incomming. What should i go for next? Badlands, Bayou, Volcanic or Tutor?
I'm still a bit curious about the mana base. I've seen lists play Badlands and Tropical Island or Bayou and Tropical. what is the right card? Badlands is cheaper but Bayou is better?

The obviously is:
8 Fetch
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 ??
1 ??

Here we go again: Land discussion! My absolutely favourite topic to read. If you will read through the last pages you can find some posts about the configuration of lands.
In your SB which I find not optimal you may go with either Badlands or Bayou but for the most part Bayou is the better land.

[aRSKOG]

@CabalTherapy

Can you give me an optimal sideboard for me if i was going to a major grandprix tomorrow? I'm searching for a up to date guideline or board which i can use to learn and understand the deck better. I don't think the current sideboard optien + guide available in this thread is the best optien.
I dont really need a guide just the 15 cards, i can figure out the rest :)

And thanks, i will go for Bayou i think cos that land is also played in TES, and i believe it's nice to have TES as another optien to play in Legacy as i already have ANT (missing 3 duals and a sideboard, but i will get there!)

[CabalTherapy]

@CabalTherapy

Can you give me an optimal sideboard for me if i was going to a major grandprix tomorrow? I'm searching for a up to date guideline or board which i can use to learn and understand the deck better. I don't think the current sideboard optien + guide available in this thread is the best optien.
I dont really need a guide just the 15 cards, i can figure out the rest :)

And thanks, i will go for Bayou i think cos that land is also played in TES, and i believe it's nice to have TES as another optien to play in Legacy as i already have ANT (missing 3 duals and a sideboard, but i will get there!)

Well, yours already looks good but I doubt that extra Storm spells are necessary in the SB. I know that some of the guys in here are in favour of an additional Tendrils against the former UR Delver or Miracles but I don't like them at all. (I mean the storm spells; toyed around with them a bit but they were not good) Empty the Warrens is for example a better MB card than SB because of its ability to slam some token and then ride them to victory. Postboard, the game gets harder (against most MUs) and there are plenty of situations where the game state doesn't allow for Goblins. Although I see the strenght of this cards against Miracles and other random stuff.

But, there aren't the best 15 SB cards. It is a matter of different approaches to the MUs. I try to be more specific now:
Extirpate > Surgical Ex because in most cases the split second is needed. (Reanimator [Miracles]). One should be enough here.
I liked Flusterstorm but moved away from it in favour of City of Solitude and Tops for obviously other MUs. Your empty slot could be the already mentioned Top or maybe even a Pyroclasm depending on your meta. Also Massacre > Dread of Night and if you play with Grim Tutor, one Massacre should also be enough.

If you are looking for some guides/articles, Carsten's archive on scg should be a solid start. Keep on stormin'.

[Firefight]

Here we go again: Land discussion! My absolutely favourite topic to read. If you will read through the last pages you can find some posts about the configuration of lands.
In your SB which I find not optimal you may go with either Badlands or Bayou but for the most part Bayou is the better land.

@CabalTherapy

Do you think being fetchable is the what makes Bayou being more efficient over something like Gemstone mine?

In my short experience with the deck you don't require Green on the main board, still some people play one tropical in main, I would rather to leave the Tropical Island in sideboard, just like Ross Merriam configuration, having an extra fetchland is no brainer, Gemstone mine might not be fetchable but it does provide you with one of the colors required, being this blue, red or black at the time required.

At the end is just playstyle what makes the difference , badlands will support a more red sideboard like having bolts in it.

[CabalTherapy]

@CabalTherapy

Do you think being fetchable is the what makes Bayou being more efficient over something like Gemstone mine?

In my short experience with the deck you don't require Green on the main board, still some people play one tropical in main, I would rather to leave the Tropical Island in sideboard, just like Ross Merriam configuration, having an extra fetchland is no brainer, Gemstone mine might not be fetchable but it does provide you with one of the colors required, being this blue, red or black at the time required.

At the end is just playstyle what makes the difference , badlands will support a more red sideboard like having bolts in it.

The mine sucks big time because of its limited activations. There are enough situations where you think something like that: "Oh shit, I have cantripped two times with the mine and now I have to decide on its last counter. Ritual or Cantrip or nothing...? I know this problem from TES which I played several times and basics/Tropical are simply superior. We want to be a grindy storm deck and imagine playing vs Miracles and thinking about 3 activations of a land. I am sure that Tropical Island + Bayou/Badlands is the correct configuration because it has proven itself in battle and you can still threat them as Island + Swamp/Mountain against decks without Wasteland.

We want 15 real SB cards. Playing lands in the board is a US thing. (no offense :tongue: )

[Firefight]

The mine sucks big time because of its limited activations. There are enough situations where you think something like that: "Oh shit, I have cantripped two times with the mine and now I have to decide on its last counter. Ritual or Cantrip or nothing...? I know this problem from TES which I played several times and basics/Tropical are simply superior. We want to be a grindy storm deck and imagine playing vs Miracles and thinking about 3 activations of a land. I am sure that Tropical Island + Bayou/Badlands is the correct configuration because it has proven itself in battle and you can still threat them as Island + Swamp/Mountain against decks without Wasteland.

We want 15 real SB cards. Playing lands in the board is a US thing. (no offense :tongue: )

How many times, limited activation will put you in that position, and in that scenario, that Gemnstone is actually a Bayou or Badlands, non blue, so cantripping is out of the equation, the line of play will completely change based on the fact that is your currently only land in play.

I'm not defending Gemnstone Mine , I just want to be able to understand what makes it so awful :)

Also, what would be a real 15 SB card in this new (old) Meta ?

[JamieW89]

How many times, limited activation will put you in that position, and in that scenario, that Gemnstone is actually a Bayou or Badlands, non blue, so cantripping is out of the equation, the line of play will completely change based on the fact that is your currently only land in play.

I'm not defending Gemnstone Mine , I just want to be able to understand what makes it so awful :)

Also, what would be a real 15 SB card in this new (old) Meta ?

Maybe something like this:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ad Nauseam / Empty the Warrens (depending on MD)

You have 3 Decays, Top, Grip and possibly Swarm (+ AdN/EtW) for Miracles. Needle is an alternative to Top if you don't play MD Tops.
You have up to 7 removal slots to swap out for discard with Chain, Decay and Massacre. Decays are mainly for Chalice/CB, Massacres for UWR, Deathblade etc. and Chain for random hate.
Swarm + Flusterstorm help in the SnT/Griselbrand matchups. If they play Leyline you also board 1-2 Chains. Flusterstorm also fights Storm and discard decks.
Carpet is one of the better SB cards versus RUG Delver if it comes back, and 2 might be good if it does. It's also fine versus UWR Patriot.

[Ghiwo]

hi everyone guys!

I'm back with a couple of questions and ideas :wink:

First of all, we are back at the september metagame, with Miracles (as usual), Team America, Deathblade, Sneak & Show. I think I will drop the 2 carpet of flowers from my board for sure, as they was there to fight UR delver, but they didn't convince me completely. I am now thinking about some cards to add in their place, maybe some krosan grip or city of solitude (I already play a 1-of of both), Flusterstorm didn't convince me, just like Cabal Therapy, if I understood well. I also thought about some Extirpates, however not more than 2, as they are useful in the mirror, vs. Miracles and vs. Reanimator. I don't want to board 5/6 cards against Reanimator.. :confused: The challenge will be the one I had when preparing for Ovino, in September, to find something useful for this meta, especially if it fights team america. There are so many options, but no one makes me say "I definitely want this one!".

A question came to my mind when goldfishing in a study-break, yesterday. When you open a starting hand with 1/2 lands (I had a fetch and a tropical), a ponder, a sensei's diving top, and other stuff, what you lead with? Ponder or Top? And why, so I can understand and learn that point :) I usually start with top, especially if I have a volcanic or a tropical island, to make them think I'm on Miracles or some sort of Rug Landstill. Also because I think that in the next turns I will need that 1 mana to play cantrips at sorcery speed that have an immediate impact, and I can set the top on their eot if I have a spare mana.

The last point is a card that came to my mind when playing the Miracles match-up: I noticed that, under balance-top when I fetch and have 3 mana, good players will activate top to find a vendilion, or another 3 drop to put it on top, thinking about a Krosan Grip is coming. That caught me off guard the first times, but I didn't have any Grip, I had city of solitude :eyebrow: . They didn't even think about the city but they thinking about grip caught it. So I thought about Teferi, mage of zhalfir. Is him already tested in Ant? We can play it on their eot, and they have just Fow to deal with it. He will protect our turn when we can go off. Or, if we aren't ready we can discard their plows and start beating with it. Maybe 5 mana is too much, I don't know! I will give him a try!

[sawatarix]

+1 Roberto

Trust us, Gemstone Mine is too bad.
We can't fetch it when we need green for example and it simply sucks because of it's limited availability.

Mine was a thing in 5 colour Tes but these days are gone

[Lemnear]

Mine was/is fine if you don't plan to ever go beyond turn 3 with your 3+ Colored deck (whatever it is). If you plan to make your third or forth landdrop (especially postboard), Gemstone is not fitting.

@Ponder/SDT/Fetch/Dual:

I would play SDT against unknown opponents, upkeep spin, cherrypick a card, fetch and Ponder to see the maximum of cards in the scenario.

[Marcelo65]

Gemstone is not fitting.


Is it possible to steal techs from other decks? If yes, me would suggest Tarnished Citadel because Dredge plays it and it doesn't have counter.
15 lands

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
8 Fetch
2 Tarnished Citadel

[Bryant Cook]

Is it possible to steal techs from other decks? If yes, me would suggest Tarnished Citadel because Dredge plays it and it doesn't have counter.
15 lands

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
8 Fetch
2 Tarnished Citadel

I agree with this guy, Tarnished Citadel is way better than City of Brass or Mana Confluence.

[Togores]

Now with wasteland uwr and rug with wastelabd coming back is a good card.


Also I know using slots in sb for lands sucks. i never understand the americans plsying 2 islands and a trop sb.
But I have played blue control of vintage last month 5 lands im the sb. And worked good. XD

[Lemnear]

I agree with this guy, Tarnished Citadel is way better than City of Brass or Mana Confluence.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=141880&type=card

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=247307&type=card

[Firefight]

+1 Roberto

Trust us, Gemstone Mine is too bad.
We can't fetch it when we need green for example and it simply sucks because of it's limited availability.

Mine was a thing in 5 colour Tes but these days are gone

Hello Sawatarix,

Basically the best configuration for this new old meta would be:

4 Polluted delta
3 Misty Rain forest
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

??? Thinking about having at least 7 green cards in sideboard : 3 Abrupt decays, 2 Xantid and 2 Carpet ?

[wonderPreaux]

Seeing as how theres a lot of discussion regarding side-boarded lands (and some weird stereotype about Americans regarding that???) I decided I would throw in my 2 cents about the topic as I've played the sideboarded lands a few times (and have spent my whole life being an American).

I think the principle goal of sideboarding is to have a 75 that can produce an effective 60 for any postboard game. An extension of that goal is that you likely want a 60 does a generally good job against all matchups game 1, since Storm gets to ignore a lot of the opponent's cards anyway, you can just take a middling approach to all your deck proportions and then adjust as needed for preboard games. Thus, to justify sideboarded lands, you just have to consider when you would be adjusting to accommodate a demand for lands.

Heres a great example of sideboard lands in action, and it's not even storm:

Flores Blue

4 Jushi Apprentice
3 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
3 Keiga the Tide Star

4 Boomerang
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Hinder
2 Rewind
4 Threads of Disloyalty

1 Minamo School at Water’s Edge
1 Oboro Palace in the Clouds
2 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Quicksand
4 Watery Grave
1 Miren the Moaning Well
1 Mikokoro Center of the Sea
1 Shizo Death’s Storehouse
10 Island

Sideboard
4 Drift of Phantasm
4 Execute
3 Cranial Extraction
2 Dimir Aqueduct
2 Rewind

Note how Karoo lands provide even deeper mana development and pseudo card advantage... assuming you're playing slow as balls. However, tap-out blue IS slow-as-balls, and the utility of sideboard lands becomes evident the slower the matchup. One of my enduring memories of watching, iirc, the modern portion of 2013 worlds was a UWR mirror where the first 10 turns was "land, go" for both players.

How does this translate to Storm? Well, honestly, sometimes you've gotta slow the game down. If I'm locked under Counterbalance and 2 FoW, I have a lot to put together to break out of that, and I'd rather hit land drops to blank counters like Spell Pierce as opposed to discarding for hand size while I wait for some nut-7 to form. In a game that could drag to 10+ turns, I'd rather have lands as opposed to Petals or w/e, even if its a seemingly innocuous upgrade. The last time I sb'd lands, I ran 2 G sources SB and 14 lands md, because you have to race Miracles g1 and race combo often, and then in stoneblade/miracles, you downshift with sb lands and decay/massacre.

(regarding americans and sb lands, i can only guess that this stereotype came about because, historically, america's plan for addressing poor metagame developments has been to add more land. because america has more inevitability than most other countries, it makes sense for us to play the control role and load up on land. you could likely extend this to some of the fanatics regarding immigration control, as they merely want to keep the sb lands from creeping into the main and earning america a game loss)

[Togores]

I think we were just joking (at least I was) its just vurious that in a lot of decklist of americans events players sb lands while european dont do this.
Just a thing to note. No weird stuff.
Its because europeans want a may be slower deck but better sideboard while americans want a faster deck while worser sideboard. Also to note that americans usualy play 3 preordian or preordain and grim while europeans prefer a may be slower aproach like sensei (wich is also better with more lands md).

[wonderPreaux]

I think we were just joking (at least I was) its just vurious that in a lot of decklist of americans events players sb lands while european dont do this.
Just a thing to note. No weird stuff.
Its because europeans want a may be slower deck but better sideboard while americans want a faster deck while worser sideboard. Also to note that americans usualy play 3 preordian or preordain and grim while europeans prefer a may be slower aproach like sensei (wich is also better with more lands md).

I was joking too, at least as far as the non-strategic part of the post. My point is I don't think a land is a bad sidedeck slot, so saying its a "worse" sideboard is kinda dismissive.

[Sloshthedark]

I think I will drop the 2 carpet of flowers from my board for sure, as they was there to fight UR delver,

I also thought about some Extirpates, however not more than 2

A question came to my mind when goldfishing in a study-break, yesterday. When you open a starting hand with 1/2 lands (I had a fetch and a tropical), a ponder, a sensei's diving top, and other stuff, what you lead with? Ponder or Top?

thinking about a Krosan Grip is coming

1, doesn't matter now but why would you do that, UR doesnt attack your manabase and doesn't use SP
2, I always liked the card but could not fit more than 1 recently, too many card to bring vs Miracles... I also might go up to 2 now getting rid of my lonely CoV, dunno yet
3, I'd mimic Lemnear
4, never happened to me, Grip is so marginal in legacy and even more in Ant, but I try to play around 3CC


+1 Roberto

Trust us, Gemstone Mine is too bad.
We can't fetch it when we need green for example and it simply sucks because of it's limited availability.

Mine was a thing in 5 colour Tes but these days are gone

+1



Also I know using slots in sb for lands sucks. i never understand the americans plsying 2 islands and a trop sb.
But I have played blue control of vintage last month 5 lands im the sb. And worked good. XD

I used to play 2 G now 1 G in the board, definitely not a wasted slot, conscious decision that I prefer 9th fetch to a nonbasic Island, useful vs StifleWaste decks and Miracles as a 16th land too

[Royce Walter]

There are two very good reasons to sideboard lands:
1) There are a lot of powerful lands in legacy that you would want to sideboard, but never want to draw game 1. Karakas is the best example of this, but there are certainly others in different circumstances.
2) Game 1 with a combo deck is designed to present the most focused, linear version of the strategy. Sideboarding dilutes the opponents game plan, forcing them to slow their game plan down by having answers, and in return, combo decks require answers to their answers. Games go longer, and having more lands better equips you to play a longer game.

That said, right now I don't see a very good reason to sideboard additional lands, but if I had a 14 card sideboard I'd love another green land in the board.

[Lemnear]

There are two very good reasons to sideboard lands:
1) There are a lot of powerful lands in legacy that you would want to sideboard, but never want to draw game 1. Karakas is the best example of this, but there are certainly others in different circumstances.
2) Game 1 with a combo deck is designed to present the most focused, linear version of the strategy. Sideboarding dilutes the opponents game plan, forcing them to slow their game plan down by having answers, and in return, combo decks require answers to their answers. Games go longer, and having more lands better equips you to play a longer game.

That said, right now I don't see a very good reason to sideboard additional lands, but if I had a 14 card sideboard I'd love another green land in the board.

I can see S&T variants with SB Boseiju to battle through counters or Counterbalance as well as SB lands being used to combat mana denial like Daze or Wasteland if your deck is soft to that. I guess it depends how you look at those SB slots. If you think beyond "manasources" and see them as tools to combat Resistors (Thalia, Thorn), Taxing counters or Landdestruction, those may be valid SB slots

[Chaam]

I can see S&T variants with SB Boseiju to battle through counters or Counterbalance as well as SB lands being used to combat mana denial like Daze or Wasteland if your deck is soft to that. I guess it depends how you look at those SB slots. If you think beyond "manasources" and see them as tools to combat Resistors (Thalia, Thorn), Taxing counters or Landdestruction, those may be valid SB slots

It's the same concept that is used in vintage. Legacy storm variants always have 2 to 3 basic lands in the sb for the stax matchups.

[Lemnear]

It's the same concept that is used in vintage. Legacy storm variants always have 2 to 3 basic lands in the sb for the stax matchups.

By the time I played Vintage TPS (4 Trinishpheres were still legal), I played Wastelands in the SB to harass Workshops and lock them under their own Spheres, while they also delivered mana to break out from the Spheres with a Rebuild. Was also nice to slow down Dredge.

[Troll Slayer]

Here's a little primer for ANT for the uninitiated!

http://www.moxboardinghouse.com/media/mtg-archetypes-101-legacy-storm/

[sawatarix]

Nice video, an ideal guide for people who are curious about the storm mechanics.

If i had more time i could imagine to record some of my games to share them with you.
There need to be more discussion material about in game decisions because most storm player start to struggle when there is any kind of disruption on the other side of the table.
I believe that everybody is able to execute a past in flames loop or an ad nauseam kill easily but the games were your opponent is able to defend him/herself are actually way more interesting and fun to play.
There are basically 2 questions:
- Can i go off now or do i have to search for x ? What exactly i am looking for?
- I have all the tools now but how do i sequence my spells to play around daze/spell pierce/flusterstorm/vendillion clique/surgical extraction/...?


By the way, I'm going to join a big event this weekend in Tübingen,germany.
There are alreay a bunch of dual lands in the price pool so i hope to do well this time.
Wish me luck.
(The comeback of Team America and Jund caused me to play a double Ad Nauseam List again with sb swap to grinding station against uwr delver and canadian).Additionally i won't have that much sleep the night before, i have it in my gut feeling.
It's still saturday night...
Anyway, wish me luck ;)

[bigbobbobber]

Hey everyone, long time lurker of this thread and first post here. Right now I am a broke student and can't afford a Grim Tutor at the moment, and in place I've been using Death Wish. I just wanted to share some of my thoughts/experiences with it so far. In all the games that I have cast it, the life loss has not mattered. As long as I have one left and cast Tendrils for 20 or more, it's fine. One thing that has been really nice is being able to use the sideboard similar to TES and grab Empty, PiF, Tendrils, or even Chain of Vapor if I'm in a pinch. I don't think this idea is original, but I wanted to share with everyone my thoughts on it. What does everyone here think about it?

[Lemnear]

Hey everyone, long time lurker of this thread and first post here. Right now I am a broke student and can't afford a Grim Tutor at the moment, and in place I've been using Death Wish. I just wanted to share some of my thoughts/experiences with it so far. In all the games that I have cast it, the life loss has not mattered. As long as I have one left and cast Tendrils for 20 or more, it's fine. One thing that has been really nice is being able to use the sideboard similar to TES and grab Empty, PiF, Tendrils, or even Chain of Vapor if I'm in a pinch. I don't think this idea is original, but I wanted to share with everyone my thoughts on it. What does everyone here think about it?

You can't use it to setup anything or get an answer or do you want to pay half your life for your CoV just to die once you pass the turn? You can't even use it to loop a PIF like Grim would. Using it like TES to fetch an EtW is pointless if your Goblins come down later than in TES due to the supporting manasources.

Do yourself a favor and run a second PIF.

[bigbobbobber]

So far in games I've played, Death Wish has worked very well. Last week in the two weeklies i went to i never ran into the situation of having Death Wish, wanting to cast it, and being unable because the life loss would have mattered. it's gotten me out of sticky situations by giving me access to Massacre and CoV. Every game i have cast it ive loved it. More testing is needed however to be sure on it. I'll keep you posted on how it goes

[CabalTherapy]

So far in games I've played, Death Wish has worked very well. Last week in the two weeklies i went to i never ran into the situation of having Death Wish, wanting to cast it, and being unable because the life loss would have mattered. it's gotten me out of sticky situations by giving me access to Massacre and CoV. Every game i have cast it ive loved it. More testing is needed however to be sure on it.

Peter is right! Additionally, you could say this about Burning Wish as well. It gives you access to Massacre and Void Snare and Empty and Tendrils and so on. You see, it is nice to have new people discussion things in here but the problem is that no one wants to discuss budged cards because we want play the best 75 without any drawbacks.
My advice would be: Play one Top in the Grim slot or make room for 2 Burning Wish or an Empty the Warrens, one PiF or play TES.



I'll keep you posted on how it goes

You may do this indeed but I doubt that it is relevant for any discussion.

Ah and by the way: People call me dismissive but I am not.

[Rokkastut]

Scenario: T1 in the Mirror on the play. You can play Ponder/Brainstorm or Cabal Therapy, you can't win this turn. Do you use Ponder/Brainstorm or do you play the blind Cabal Therapy? If the latter, what do you name? LED? Infernal Tutor? Dark Ritual?

[Firefight]

Scenario: T1 in the Mirror on the play. You can play Ponder/Brainstorm or Cabal Therapy, you can't win this turn. Do you use Ponder/Brainstorm or do you play the blind Cabal Therapy? If the latter, what do you name? LED? Infernal Tutor? Dark Ritual?

What are you playing against, do you know? if you don't playing ponder will be the best until you have more information, you might find a gitaxian probe or use the therapy later when you go off

Edit: Oh , didn't read the Mirror Part, theraphy naming LED might be correct.

[CabalTherapy]

Scenario: T1 in the Mirror on the play. You can play Ponder/Brainstorm or Cabal Therapy, you can't win this turn. Do you use Ponder/Brainstorm or do you play the blind Cabal Therapy? If the latter, what do you name? LED? Infernal Tutor? Dark Ritual?

I would definately go with Ponder and set up my own kill instead of risking to lose my first turn due to a blind Therapy.

[Dragonslayer_90]

By the way, I'm going to join a big event this weekend in Tübingen,germany.
There are alreay a bunch of dual lands in the price pool so i hope to do well this time.
Wish me luck.
(The comeback of Team America and Jund caused me to play a double Ad Nauseam List again with sb swap to grinding station against uwr delver and canadian).Additionally i won't have that much sleep the night before, i have it in my gut feeling.
It's still saturday night...
Anyway, wish me luck ;)

Hope the Tournament went relatively well for you Sawatarix. Could you post your list when you get a chance? I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd be intrigued to see your list for the new meta.

[Surfinbird]

Hi! Yesteraday i went to the January's Catalan Legacy League (81 players) and did a 5-1-1, unfortunately reaching only the 10th place. My sideboard was:

3 Abrupt decay
3 Xantid swarm
2 sensei's divining top
1 chain of vapor
1 disfigure
1 massacre
1 pyroclasm
1 krosan grip
1 empty the warrens
1 extract (i simply wanted to laugh in the mirror matches:tongue:)

I started the tournament losing due to two stupid errors, simply problems of concentration by being to sleepy. I could have won the first match easily, but i think my mind was still in the bed:frown: I played against:

BW Pox (1-2)
Sideboard: +2 SDT +1 Abrupt Decay +1 Chain of vapor // -1 Cabal ritual, -3 Cabal therapy

RUG Midrange (1-1)
Sideboard: +3 Xantid swarm (My oponent took bolts out the last time we played) // -1 Duress -1 Preordain -1 Cabal ritual

BUG Control (2-0)
Sideboard: +2 SDT +1 Abrupt decay // -1 Preordain -1 Cabal ritual -1 Lotus petal

Miracles (2-0)
Sideboard +2 SDT +3 Abrupt decay +1 Krosan Grip +1 Empty the Warrens // -2 Lotus petal -2 Preordain -2 Cabal ritual -1 Island


Jeskai Blade (2-0)
Sideboard: +2 SDT +1 Massacre +1 Disfigure // -1 Cabal ritual -1 Lotus petal -2 Preordain

Team America (2-0)
Sideboard: +2 SDT +1 Empty the warrens// -1 Cabal ritual -1 Preordain -1 Grim tutor

Deathblade (2-1)
Sideboard: +2 SDT +1 Massacre +1 Pyroclasm // -1 Cabal ritual -1 Lotus petal -2 Preordain

Some reflexions about the tournament and sideboarding:

1. Despite I sided in SDT in almost every g2, i think it's OK playing 0 in the maindeck because they are good when games go long and we have to fight against tones of disruption = We don't need them in g1, which is easier and faster.

2. I will cut one Xantid swarm. Reanimator/Show and tell are not highly played in my meta, and leylines are not in their sideboards.

3. I'll cut the extract too. It's fantastic in the mirror but maybe 3 of the 6 ANT players were running wishes.

4. I like the empty the warrens against Miracles to win through the countertop, but i think i don't need it in other pairings and sometimes it isn't enough againstt miracles due to explosives, pyroclasm or entreat the angels. Maybe i'll cut it too.

5. Massacre, pyroclasm, chain of vapor and disfigure are verssatile and perfect in the diferent matchups.

So i end up with this SB:

3 Abrupt decay
2 Xantid swarm
2 SDT
1 Krosan grip
1 Chain of vapor
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Disfigure
3 ???

What should i play in those slots? Now in my meta there ara a lot of slow decks with lots of hate like deathblade, miracles, BUG, etc. There are also diferent forms of combo, so maybe flusterstorm could be a good card as a 2of, but i'm not a big fan of it.

ALSO: Another fantastic storm player won the tournament, playing 2 preordains, 7 discard and 1 SDT maindeck and this sideboard: 3 Dread of night, 3 Xantid swarm, 3 Abrupt decay, 2 Chain of vapor, 2 Carpet of flowers, 2 SDT. Opinions?

PD: The final results of my testing after the 3rd week are 60-18.

[Togores]

Buen trabajo (good ob)

Seems like storm had a good weekend in spain this weekend Raptor (the spanish one) wining your league, and you tenth. And me getting top 4 of my league with tes.

I like flusterstorm and if more ppl play ant and so its good. Also I like 2 grips and 2 massacre. The second tendrills is also nice. In my ant side board I have never wished I had an empty. I think is just a bad plan.

[Surfinbird]

After doing the yellow submarine winning the last 5 rounds not reacching the top8 was frustrating, but well, i'm happy with the results:) The next weeks i'll test 2 city of solitude and the second tendrils, I haven't worked with them yet.

[Sloshthedark]

Weekend was good indeed, just returned from a trip

top 8 Czech legacy series coming 2nd on Saturday
2:1 UBg Aeon Bridge
2:0 Burg
2:0 Imperial Painter
ID 12post (friend)
ID D+T (D+T)
______________ top 8 (2x D+T, Burg, 12Post, Thresh, Imperial Painter, UBG Dig+Deed, Me)
2:0 D+T
2:0 Threshold w Stifle
1:2 D+T (nice ID bro :(
= City of Traitors

and top 8 Austrian legacy champs spliting finals with a friend on Miracles on Sunday

2:0 UWR
1:2 Miracles (Tomas - finalist - report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20529-DTB-Miracle-Control&p=863999&viewfull=1#post863999))
2:1 Dark Maverick
2:0 Manaless Dredge
2:0 UR Omnitell
______________ top 8 (http://www.facebook.com/AustrianLegacyChampionship/posts/615701158575545) (2x Ant+Me, Reanimator, Ub Omnitell, Miracles, UW Digblade, Esper Digblade)
2:0 UW Digblade
2:1 Reanimator
split by drop
= Underground Sea

with the exactly same 76 I played in TC meta (3LP, wrong transcription in top8 decklists)... Bannings = No changes

[lordofthepit]

After piloting a few variants of ANT at weeklies, I decided to take it for the first time at a event for duals. I really hated running the Grim Tutor, so I cut it and went with a list very similar to Togores's (cutting the 4th Duress for a 2nd Preordain), although with a much different sideboard. Turnout was medium (48 players), but the field was pretty stacked: three players had won at least one SCG Legacy Open and another three had Legacy Open 2nd place finishes.

Deck ran extremely smoothly:

R1 Budget BUG Delver (2-0)

G1: He had no clock or disruption, and after using Top to find Infernal Tutor I made a million mana, cast PIF and flashed back Tutor for Tendrils without flashing back Gitaxian Probe in case he was running something weird like Psionic Blast. Turns out his unknown card was a Stifle, so I simply flashed back PIF and cast Tendrils again.
G2: He beat me down aggressively with Delver but was on a mull to 5, eventually tapping everything but a Ghost Quarter to play Deathrite Shaman. I made a ton of mana and had the ability to just Tutor chain into Tendrils, but then I realized the Ghost Quarter would enable him to cast the Stifle in his hand (the only relevant spell), so I Tutored for a second Tutor, got Past in Flames, flashed back my rituals, used the first Tutor to Duress him, then found Tendrils with my second.

R2 URw Pyromancer (2-1)

This player is a professional and the most accomplished in the entire room. I felt confident in my deck, but I rarely have an opportunity to play an opponent of such caliber.

G1: he had no disruption, and I managed to find the natural Tendrils and a Past in Flames. Even though he didn't have much disruption, he had a ton of card drawing power (plus Dig Through Time), so I had to start going for it by casting Dark Ritual without the sure win, but all I needed to hit was any spell on my top 3 since I had a Top. It got there easily.
G2: I board in two Chain of Vapors to hedge against Meddling Mage. I kept a sketchy hand without a whole lot of action, probably psyched out by having to play such an accomplished opponent. He quickly clocked me with Pyromancer, and I needed an amazing Brainstorm to have a chance; since he had previously represented Pyroblast, I went ahead and Therapied that away, which hit, but he also showed me FOW, Counterspell, and Flusterstorm. Since I didn't see any Mages, I went ahead swapped the Chains for Cities of Solitude instead, which was a mistake.*
G3: I take two turns to sculpt my hand, as I have a ton of cantrips, but he probes me and knows I'm light on lands. On my turn 3, I cast a Brainstorm with a fetchland open, and my opponent responds with a Brainstorm before allowing mine to resolve. The Brainstorm is almost perfect and includes a Probe and a Therapy. Probe reveals Meddling Mage, Hydroblast, Dig, Force, and Thought Scour. I Therapy away Force, my Petal into Ritual draws a Thought Scour, but he bricks on Force and I'm able to chain Tutors into Tendrils.

* phazonmutant previously advised me to play just one Chain of Vapor against Meddling Mage on Tendrils, but that didn't make sense to me since it seemed really difficult to find. Only after the match was over did I think of my line to beat Stifle in R1 did it occur to me: with a sufficient number of rituals, Tutor for a second Tutor into Past in Flames allows you to flashback the first Tutor to find your answer, then the second Tutor to find the kill.

R3 UR Painter (2-0)

G1: He takes the play and doesn't do anything relevant. I probe him and see a Brainstorm but no interaction. I have the ability to play Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual x2 (without Threshold) into Ad Nauseam in response to his EOT Brainstorm, but I decide to wait for his upkeep so I can ensure a large grip without having to discard. It got there, but was this a misplay?
G2: He's choked on blue mana, but has multiple Tombs and a Great Furnace, plus a Grindstone, so I'm almost certainly dead if he ever finds Painter before I can combo off. I draw a ton of lands to go with the Ad Nauseam and Tendrils in hand, but my opponent isn't drawing very well either. I know he has a Spell Pierce but he doesn't have the mana to cast it, so when I play my fifth land, I cast Ad Nauseam on his upkeep, which meets a Force of Will that he had draw by that point. I know he has a REB in hand, and I have a Brainstorm as well as an Infernal Tutor, but I still have found absolutely no Rituals yet, so I Infernal Tutor for another Brainstorm. He had started trying to naturally Grindstone me by this point, so by showing him a second Brainstorm, I induce him to tap both Tombs so that he could hold open his red source. Eventually, he gets to 6 life, and I cast Brainstorm, which eats a REB. Then I play LED and Tendrils him for 8.

R4 Merfolk (2-1)

G1: He mulls to 4 and dies on turn 2 to natural Tendrils.
G2: I have a cantrip heavy hand, but I never find a discard effect to beat the known Force of Will. I cast a Dark Ritual, trying to induce him to counter it by playing it before I play my Petals, but he trades two Cursecatchers and a Daze for it instead, which at least buys me another turn against his double Mutavaults. On the last turn before lethal, I play a Cabal Ritual to try to bait the Force, but he counters it instead with a freshly drawn Flusterstorm. I play out my two Petals and second Cabal Ritual just to see what he would do, and he Forces it, but at that point, I had no way of going off even if he didn't counter anything at all.
G3: I have a cantrip heavy hand with a Carpet of Flowers, which I play off Bayou. He wastes it. I play Underground Sea and Ponder, and he plays a Cursecatcher. I play a second Carpet, cantrip, and ship back to him. He plays a Standstill. I break it with a Duress, and his three fresh cards are absolutely awful: three Silvergill Adepts to go with the fourth copy in his hand, an Aether Vial, a Master, and some lands. I do some math and realize I'm one mana short of beating Cursecatcher with a PIF loop (which would require me to Tutor for a second Tutor), so I play tutor for Ad Nauseam with no mana floating, but an uncracked LED in case I need to get hellbent and a land drop at the ready. I feel very comfortable passing the turn since he had already sacrificed his Cursecatcher, I had two Carpets in play, and even finding a Therapy would completely wreck him, but I manage to get there without passing the turn.

R5 ANT (ID)

I'm actually paired down, so I'm prepared to do battle.
G1: He wins the roll and has a better opening seven than me, but he is unable to kill me turn 1. However, I manage to draw very well off the top to make up for the advantage he had in his opening hand and use Therapy to disrupt him enough to get a second turn. Since I know I'm unlikely to get a third turn, after my Ponder bricks, I cast Petal into Ritual into Top, looking to find a discard effect or a way to win, and I manage to hit Infernal Tutor. I flip the top, cast three Cabal Rituals, and easily kill him via Tutor chain.

Since I have the pair down and woudl be up a game, I offer a draw, which he accepts.

R6 bURG Delver (ID)

T8 ANT (2-0)

G1: I mull to 6 on the play, Probe him, see discard but a hand with no action, and pass with an Island. He Duresses, so I Brainstorm in response to hide my Infernal Tutor, but I see a second copy, so I show him two Petals, an LED, lands, and Infernal Tutor. He takes the Tutor. I cast all my spells to play Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam, and I stop at 7 life since I still haven't found a Petal (of which there were two left) but do have Tendrils in hand, a Tutor, several Rituals and cantrip, as well as an LED which I play out before discarding down to hand size. He cantrips but is unable to kill me, so he plays Duress, but I kill him anyway on my third turn.
G2: I have a much better hand than he does and go for an early Ad Nauseam with a land drop left. I don't find a Dark Ritual, so I keep flipping, but by that point, I've found an Infernal Tutor, two LEDs, Brainstorm, Probe, and several other cantrips. I stop, Brainstorm the Infernal Tutor to the top of my library, play out my LEDs, and then probe into the Tutor while cracking LED.

T4 Jund (2-0)

G1: He Duresses away my LED, plays a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, and a turn 3 Deathrite. I manage to Brainstorm into multiple Rituals, PIF, Cabal Therapy, and Tutor. I cast my Cabal Rituals, Therapy away my PIF to get hellbent, Tutor for LED, flash back PIF, play out my Rituals and Tutor for Tendrils.
G2: We both keep our seven, and mine contains Top and multiple cantrips but just one fetchland. He leads off with a Duress to take the Top. I cast Probe and see a Duress, Thoughtseize, Nihil Spellbomb, Liliana, and a Tarmogoyf, but no more lands. My Preordain finds a dual and a Top, which I hide on top of my library. He bricks on land and casts another discard spell, taking a cantrip. I play Top and pass the turn. He bricks again on land, casts another discard spell. The top of my library is locked, so I cash in the top for a Ponder, shuffle my library, and find a land. Meanwhile, my opponent still bricks on land but plays a Grafdigger's Cage. I think I draw a Probe, which draws into a Therapy, which is really sweet against his hand of Tarmogoyf, double Liliana, and double Hymn (which I take). He's still unable to find a land, so on my turn, I go off with Ad Nauseam. I stop at five life without having assembled the kill because I can very easily pass the turn safe from Bolt, but my Brainstorm finds the Tutor I was missing and I'm able to end the game.

Finals 4-color Delver Pyromancer

We're both tired and want to go home, so we take the split, each walking away with two Force of Wills and two Tundras. I'm probably an underdog in this matchup, but ANT is really sweet and can beat anything if you run well and play tight.

[aRSKOG]

I was playing ANT on cockatrice yesterday and i was paired against a MUD player. After playing a few games i realize it's very very hard to get through Chalice on 1 and Trinsphere. But then by a coincidence i saw Energy Flux laying around on my table (used it in my French EDH (very casual), but it got cutted for a Ghostly Prison). Now im wondering, why are noone playing Energy Flux in sideboard for the MUD matchup? that matchup seems to be like unwinable, but a flux on the table = GG.. But okay im a rookie.

@Lordofthepit any chance we can see your full decklist + sideboard?

[Quasim0ff]

I was playing ANT on cockatrice yesterday and i was paired against a MUD player. After playing a few games i realize it's very very hard to get through Chalice on 1 and Trinsphere. But then by a coincidence i saw Energy Flux laying around on my table (used it in my French EDH (very casual), but it got cutted for a Ghostly Prison). Now im wondering, why are noone playing Energy Flux in sideboard for the MUD matchup? that matchup seems to be like unwinable, but a flux on the table = GG.. But okay im a rookie.

I don't play this deck, but I assume it's because MUD is VERY narrow, and reaching 3 mana vs. mud is already pretty damn hard? :)

[lordofthepit]

I was playing ANT on cockatrice yesterday and i was paired against a MUD player. After playing a few games i realize it's very very hard to get through Chalice on 1 and Trinsphere. But then by a coincidence i saw Energy Flux laying around on my table (used it in my French EDH (very casual), but it got cutted for a Ghostly Prison). Now im wondering, why are noone playing Energy Flux in sideboard for the MUD matchup? that matchup seems to be like unwinable, but a flux on the table = GG.. But okay im a rookie.

@Lordofthepit any chance we can see your full decklist + sideboard?



2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
SB: 2 City of Solitude
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Karakas


Never used the Cities. I'm very scared of graveyard decks, so I run more Surgicals than anyone else I know, plus it's pretty useful in the mirror (either to blow them out or to protect your own business spells from Surgical by fizzling them), and I've found fringe uses for it in other combo matchups.

[Togores]

I was playing ANT on cockatrice yesterday and i was paired against a MUD player. After playing a few games i realize it's very very hard to get through Chalice on 1 and Trinsphere. But then by a coincidence i saw Energy Flux laying around on my table (used it in my French EDH (very casual), but it got cutted for a Ghostly Prison). Now im wondering, why are noone playing Energy Flux in sideboard for the MUD matchup? that matchup seems to be like unwinable, but a flux on the table = GG.. But okay im a rookie.

@Lordofthepit any chance we can see your full decklist + sideboard?

If I would play some artifact hate I would play hurkil recall for sure.
Under a thorn or a golem costa 1 less
Dosnt get blown out by metalworker or paying with lands for lodestone
Can net you aditional storm
Its an instant

So all better than flux

[Rokkastut]

If I would play some artifact hate I would play hurkil recall for sure.
Under a thorn or a golem costa 1 less
Dosnt get blown out by metalworker or paying with lands for lodestone
Can net you aditional storm
Its an instant

So all better than flux

Rebuild > Hurkyl's Recall

* Witchbane Orb
* Fixes their taxes AND additional bounce
* Cmc 1U or 2U is irrelevant because of Trinisphere

Edit: Cmc may be relevant, but the other arguments are still strong enough to choose Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall

[Firefight]

A few Q's

Main Deck EtW is better against BUG Variants than Ad Nauseam? Assuming they don't have any -1-1 effects on the main deck , and side it out for Ad Nauseam.

Or the contrary will be better, Ad Nauseam Main deck, due to Deathrite Shaman.

Will Dig Through Time be a good Meta Call against discard or it is not necessary as we will fight back the discard with discard :D

Dark Confidant will fit in this meta?

Thanks

[Chaam]

Main Deck EtW is better against BUG Variants than Ad Nauseam? Assuming they don't have any -1-1 effects on the main deck , and side it out for Ad Nauseam.

Will Dig Through Time be a good Meta Call against discard or it is not necessary as we will fight back the discard with discard :D


On your first point. EtW is just mediocre imo vs. everything. Don't side out Ad Naus vs. BUG decks. They don't pressure your life total all that quickly (even BUG Delver is sort of slow). I would keep Ad Naus in post board vs. basically any deck not running red (lightning bolt).

Delving with Dig Through Time is both slow and a big nonbo with PiF. Also, vs decks with discard (and no counters) just take out your discard. Like vs. Jund just take out all your discard for more threats (2nd Tendrils), permanent hate to fight their sb cards (AD, CoV, w/e) and more cantrips/ca (SB Tops or Bobs).

[aRSKOG]

So now my current list looks like this:

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Preordain
1x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual

4x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Ad Nauseum

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Underground Sea (FINALY! had it today and I'm very happy)
1x Watery Grave
1x Steam Vents
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Swamp
1x Island

Sideboard:
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swam
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Massacre
1x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils of Agony

So i think im gonna stick with this for a while, seems like a fair mix of optiens for different matchups. I have a single MUD Player at my local so if he shows, i might gonna cut the 2 Surgicals for Hurkyl's Recall. Even thou we are 3 people who plays some sort of combo (TES/ANT) every time. So not sure if i need to get some Flusterstorms. Atleast my priority is to get the duals done. (I'm very close to the second Underground Sea).

So the best idea is to get the second Sea or what specific Dual should i go for next, to get my game smoother?

I've been looking at some podcast with WonderPraux so i've got an idea of how to play. No clue how good a player he is but it's a help. Anyone knows some other podcasts/streams etc i can watch to get some better understanding of ANT? Ofc I've read almost all from Carsten Kotter about storm (I think) so where to look now?

[Sloshthedark]

Congrats, Lord of the Pit! nice run... I like your 2 SDT a lot, those were great for me this weekend, I also found well performing lists in both of my tournaments (ab)using DiG a lot which was surprisingly no problem at all for me, I wonder if in your meta it was also the case



So i think im gonna stick with this for a while, seems like a fair mix of optiens for different matchups. I have a single MUD Player at my local so if he shows, i might gonna cut the 2 Surgicals for Hurkyl's Recall. Even thou we are 3 people who plays some sort of combo (TES/ANT) every time. So not sure if i need to get some Flusterstorms. Atleast my priority is to get the duals done. (I'm very close to the second Underground Sea).

So the best idea is to get the second Sea or what specific Dual should i go for next, to get my game smoother?

I've been looking at some podcast with WonderPraux so i've got an idea of how to play. No clue how good a player he is but it's a help. Anyone knows some other podcasts/streams etc i can watch to get some better understanding of ANT? Ofc I've read almost all from Carsten Kotter about storm (I think) so where to look now?

Energy flux vs Mud does not work more than buying time, vs Post version its embarrassing, EtW or Re-(card) if needed be

Probably a 2nd Usea, can't go wrong with it

I don't know any other dedicated Storm streamer, I think Max does a good job, I enjoy his streams... just watch Storm matches everywhere and never be satisfied with imperfection, question their/your lines and lists and first and foremost - play a lot... it's like any other thing if you want to grow an learn

[Togores]

Can you post a link where he streams?

[Lemnear]

Can you post a link where he streams?

Search twitch for "wonderpreaux"

[aRSKOG]

@Togores

http://www.twitch.tv/wonderpreaux/

This is his channel, you can see his saved games there as well.

[Surfinbird]

As i've said in my last post, the last weeks i've been playing this sideboard:

3 Xantid Swarm, 3 Abrupt decay, 2 Sensei's divining top, 1 Chain of vapor, 1 Disfigure, 1 Massacre, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Krosan grip, 1 Empty the warrens, 1 Extract.

After the last tournament (81 players), the decrease of Show and tell decks and the presence of 2-3 TNT decks made me cut the extract and a Xantid Swarm. I 've also decided to cut the Empty the warrens, i don't feel it's necessary at all despite it's good against miracles.

After seeing the metagame breakdown and the results, i've noticeed that there has been an important increase of graveyard based combo and unfortunately also of GWb Zenith. Due to the last one, i've been discussing with the winner of the tournament (ANT player) and he thinks that playing 3 dread of night in the sideboard is now necessary to beat them. There are some death and taxes in the meta too. I've been performing well with Massacre, pyroclasm & co, but probably he is right, since Massacre is horrible against Teegs and pyroclasm doesn't work with Mother of runes.

The next weeks i'll try this sideboard:

3 Dread of night, 3 Abrupt decay, 2 Sensei's divining top, 2 Chain of vapor, 2 Surgical extraction, 2 Xantid Swarm, 1 Krosan grip.

I prefer Surgical over Fluster because it doesn't force us to leavean untapped land and also it works better with infernal tutor and hellbent. Saves us from some oponent's t1 kills when we are on the play too.

I'm really interested on your opinions about playing dread of night in this metagame.

[lordofthepit]

I'm really interested on your opinions about playing dread of night in this metagame.

I ran two Dread of Nights for the first time at the tournament I was referring to; I previously ran Massacre and/or Pyroclasm, but phazonmutant convinced me to actually play Dread of Night instead.

Dread of Night is significant in being able to easily take care of Thalia, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Aven Mindcensor, and Mother of Runes, wiping the board instantly clean as well as dealing with future copies of the card. However, it's clearly worse against the likes of Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage, Deathrite Shaman, a 2/2 Scavenging Ooze, Phyrexian Revoker, etc., as well as usually not doing much against Gaddock Teeg without a second copy (but it's better than Massacre here).

Usually, my boarding plan against Death and Taxes or Maverick-style decks involves shaving all discard spells, bringing in any dedicated creature removal (Dread, Massacre, Pyroclasm, Karakas, Slaughter Pact, etc.), some Chains of Vapor, and maybe an Abrupt Decay or two. By far the two most likely cards you need to answer are Thalia and Teeg, and Dread of Night is clearly better than Massacre here; it doesn't deal completely with Teeg, it allows your secondary answers to deal with it without interference from Mother of Runes. I personally also play a decent amount of Maverick/Big Zoo, and Sylvan Safekeeper has been awesome for me when I'm on the other side of the table, but that's an exceedingly unlikely card to run into, I've been happy with going to Dread of Night over Massacre. Keep in mind that these decks are often capable of turning off your Past in Flames win condition (RIP/Cage for DNT, Shaman/Ooze for Maverick), so having a card that is easy to flip to Ad Nauseam as well as easy to get out of your hand in case you need to get hellbent is a big bonus.

Massacre was a useful answer against Meddling Mage decks, which often had no threats that could survive that card, but phazonmutant convinced me that I was overboarding for those matchups. Chain of Vapor should be a sufficient hedge, especially since it provides an alternative way to generate storm.

[lordofthepit]

Congrats, Lord of the Pit! nice run... I like your 2 SDT a lot, those were great for me this weekend, I also found well performing lists in both of my tournaments (ab)using DiG a lot which was surprisingly no problem at all for me, I wonder if in your meta it was also the case

Thanks! Congrats to you too!

I had previously been trying to find a way to combat discard decks pre-Khans when BUG Delver was popular, and I tried things like Dark Confidant or a second Ad Nauseam, but they felt a bit clunky. Carsten Koetter wrote some nice Storm articles late last year, and this included running several copies of Sensei's Divining Top in the 75 to combat discard (as well as to enable other tricks).

I hadn't actually played the deck for a while, but I shipped it to a friend for SCG Seattle (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77593). With the increased presence of the mirror (and Reanimator/Dredge) in my local meta, I decided to exchange the Flusterstorms for Surgical Extractions. I kept wanting to dedicate more and more space to have actual sideboard cards and not merely "anti-hate", so I greedily kept cutting more Preordains for Tops. Togores' decision to do the same with his list after TC got banned sold me on the decision.

I can't say that inclusion was really a "meta choice", and I actually didn't know what the metagame would look like on this first weekend post-TC. I did know that I was very much set to play ANT and felt comfortable in my ability to pilot it recently, so even though I think the meta likely got worse for Storm post-TC, I felt it was still better than going with my secondary option (Miracles) which had served me very well in the past, but one with which I have been rusty and making a lot of uncharacteristically sloppy plays as of late.

[Surfinbird]

Thanks for the Answer lordofthepit! I agree with what you've said. I'd also point out the possibility of copying dread of night with Infernal tutor to beat canonists and gaddocks. Also in my metagame GWb players like running sylvan safekeeper, so the doble dread is important here.

About playing tops maindeck: I'd like to play one, but i'm really happy with 1 Grim tutor, 2 preordains and 7 discard spells. I've been thinking about shaving a Preordain for a top, but i think maybe the deck would became slower and will give me more cluncky hands... Maybe i'm wrong.

In the end, the Best way to take decisions is testing, testing and testing, so these days i'll give a chance to these diferent maindeck and sideboard configurations, let's see what happens.

[aRSKOG]

Thanks for the chat about Dread of Night. I'm gonna change my sideboard after that so it's now

3 Abrupt Decay 3 Dread of Night 2 Xantid Swarm 2 Carpet of Flowers 2 Chain of Vapor 2 Surgical Extraction 1 Tendrils of Agony

I'm currently playing 1 SDT in my main, but there might be an argument for another one in my 75, but what to cut? I believe 2 SDT in the main is going to be a bit clumsy. So what to cut in the side? To me it seems like Tendrils is the weak link.
Lets see how this goes today at my local.

[Ghiwo]

I've always been a great fan of Dread of Night, for some reasons. The biggest one is that it kills some threats that you would have a hard time getting rid of, such as Aven Mindcensor. I don't know if it's only in my metagame, but here people used to play a lot of D&T with quite a lot Mindcensors. You can't discard Mindcensor, you can't bounce it, the only option without any Dread is discard + massacre, which is hard to have. The other great thing of DoN is that you can sit on it and play the control role, until you sculpt your perfect hand to win. Also you can Ad Nauseam more safely without 2 more 4 cmc spells in your deck. And I pretty much agree with Lordofthepit that vs. Meddling Mage you just need Chain, especially when the deck playing it is Deathblade, where is nearly impossible not to win game1. Right now I'm running a split of the two, 1 Massacre and 1 Dread, and I'm having a nice time with them.

[Surfinbird]

Usually against Death and taxes andGWb Zenith i keep 2-3 therapys post board. Sometimes it's good, but when we haven't got probe playing a blind therapy is a lottery: thalia, gaddock, zenith, canonist... (revoker, mindcensor, spirit, shaman, ooze...) So probably is better to just side out all the discard spells.

What do you do?

[Narcind]

I don't think I'll ever side out all of my discard vs death and taxes or maverick just because I've lost to mindbreak trap like that more than once

[grmpytopdecker]

I played a Grinding Station list on XMage tonight, going 2-2. I beat Jund and Elves, lost to OmniTell and Lands.

Jund - turn 2 kills in both games
Elves - turn 2 and turn 3 kills, g2 I probed and therapied away a natural order
Omni - kept a discard heavy hand g1, g2 went for it as a bad decision without discard hoping to get lucky
Lands - Couldn't sculpt a hand g1 before Marit killed me, g2 mulled to 6 with one land and a ponder, got Ghost Quartered and then they set up the loam+wasteland+GQ lock


As a less experienced player with the deck and archetype I am wondering if a more traditional ANT build with more cantrips is better to learn with?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[wonderPreaux]

I played a Grinding Station list on XMage tonight, going 2-2. I beat Jund and Elves, lost to OmniTell and Lands.

Jund - turn 2 kills in both games
Elves - turn 2 and turn 3 kills, g2 I probed and therapied away a natural order
Omni - kept a discard heavy hand g1, g2 went for it as a bad decision without discard hoping to get lucky
Lands - Couldn't sculpt a hand g1 before Marit killed me, g2 mulled to 6 with one land and a ponder, got Ghost Quartered and then they set up the loam+wasteland+GQ lock


As a less experienced player with the deck and archetype I am wondering if a more traditional ANT build with more cantrips is better to learn with?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
The skills you pick up with Grinding Station are pretty key for success with ANT (abusing natural storm, managing the importance of your rituals/gy), I think the real issue with it would be playing it now when DRS, Discard and other such nastiness is returning to the tables :/

[Jonathan Alexander]

I played a Grinding Station list on XMage tonight, going 2-2. I beat Jund and Elves, lost to OmniTell and Lands.

Jund - turn 2 kills in both games
Elves - turn 2 and turn 3 kills, g2 I probed and therapied away a natural order
Omni - kept a discard heavy hand g1, g2 went for it as a bad decision without discard hoping to get lucky
Lands - Couldn't sculpt a hand g1 before Marit killed me, g2 mulled to 6 with one land and a ponder, got Ghost Quartered and then they set up the loam+wasteland+GQ lock


As a less experienced player with the deck and archetype I am wondering if a more traditional ANT build with more cantrips is better to learn with?


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If you don't have the fundamental skills yet, Ad Nauseam is definitely the way to go. The games are much clearer, as the deck is, overall, more strict. You have more games where you're playing to resolve a single spell that will win you the game. With Grinding Station, games can be more volatile and the hardest part is, in my eyes, to know which win-condition is most likely to win you the game. You also have to be very patient (sometimes), which is a thing not many players are used to. This isn't something you are likely to learn from playing with Ad Nauseam though, but it still adds up to the things that make Grinding Station harder than Ad Nauseam Tendrils.
Further, with Grinding Station you'll have way more games that come down to mindgames and reading your opponent, i.e. which spells they are going to counter and how to make them react to certain spells but not to others. This, you can pick up from regular ANT, at least a little.

Regardless of all that, I think a list with 2 Ad Nauseam in the maindeck and a Grinding Station plan in the board is the way to go for now, mainly because it's that much better against Deathrite Shamans and discard spells.

[Shaman]

@Jona: what do you propose in a 2 nauseam maindeck list? I guess you should run 1 chrome mox or even 2. I saw some lists from yours in the past where you had 1 chrome + 1 rain of filth along with the usual mana configuration. Do you think that should work now or do you suggest something different?

I ask the same to Sawatarix that recently told about running something similar (2 nauseam maindeck I mean).

[Sloshthedark]

Usually against Death and taxes andGWb Zenith i keep 2-3 therapys post board. Sometimes it's good, but when we haven't got probe playing a blind therapy is a lottery: thalia, gaddock, zenith, canonist... (revoker, mindcensor, spirit, shaman, ooze...) So probably is better to just side out all the discard spells.

What do you do?

I do side out 1 Duress (D+T)/Therapy (Maverick), never more than 2

forcing G2 Grinding station plan vs Gy hate doesn't make much sense, 2AdN the other way around had some logic... personaly I haven't seen many DRS around me at all (like 6 decks out of 60), the better performing lists used DiG on UWx basis

[Jonathan Alexander]

The list Kai played last weekend was this one, which I made for him:

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dread of Night
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Swamp
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Tendrils of Agony

The only cards that are given in the sideboard are Abrupt Decay, Chain of Vapor, Swamp and Tendrils. The rest can be pretty much anything else, although I do like bringing the Top against BUG. Krosan Grip is an option, as are Carpet of Flowers and Xantid Swarm, although I have come to the conclusion that Carpet is basically never worth having and Xantid Swarm is only good when there's lots of Sneak & Show. Of course, if there's no D&T nor Maverick, you have a couple free slots anyway.

[Togores]

Seems like the random burning wish I played lasts year and qas ala mode one year before is coming back. Seems always nice to have this 1x.

[KevinH]

So, I've been playing ANT for nearly 2 years now, switching back and forth between it and UWR Delver, which I Top 8ed SCG Indy last year with. I've got a good amount of experience with the deck but unfortunately my luck with it has not been quite as hot, and I don't have much to show for how much I've been playing the deck.

I have been out of the MTG scene for quite awhile, and decided to check in on things post-banning. I assume that the meta is a little worse now for Storm.

I had some questions regarding sideboard cards. I'm seeing a bunch of people running 2 SDT in the board, and I'm assuming that's just for heavy discard B/G strategies, correct?

Also, I was always pretty confused about the inclusion of Flusterstorm in boards. Could anybody give me the logic behind it?

[Lemnear]

So, I've been playing ANT for nearly 2 years now, switching back and forth between it and UWR Delver, which I Top 8ed SCG Indy last year with. I've got a good amount of experience with the deck but unfortunately my luck with it has not been quite as hot, and I don't have much to show for how much I've been playing the deck.

I have been out of the MTG scene for quite awhile, and decided to check in on things post-banning. I assume that the meta is a little worse now for Storm.

I had some questions regarding sideboard cards. I'm seeing a bunch of people running 2 SDT in the board, and I'm assuming that's just for heavy discard B/G strategies, correct?

Also, I was always pretty confused about the inclusion of Flusterstorm in boards. Could anybody give me the logic behind it?

SDT is against discard heavy decks and assists finding Decays after a resolved Counterbalance (given you drop if fast enough). Flusterstorm is simply for slowing down combo decks which are faster than you like TES, Belcher or S&T

[KevinH]

Currently my board looks like:

3 Dread of Night
2 Pyroclasm
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Xantid Swarm

Any suggestions as to how I should be tweaking this to the current metagame?

[Lemnear]

Currently my board looks like:

3 Dread of Night
2 Pyroclasm
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Xantid Swarm

Any suggestions as to how I should be tweaking this to the current metagame?

play EtW mainboard or not at all. It's pointless to board in if opponents usually board in stuff like Electrickery, Zealous Persecution or Explosives just because of the danger of Goblins.

[KevinH]

I feel like I'm only ever bringing in ETW against Daze decks anyways, and I'm not really worried about Electrickery or Persecution coming from those decks, especially now that Pyromancer is going to get less popular. Right?

[Lemnear]

I feel like I'm only ever bringing in ETW against Daze decks anyways, and I'm not really worried about Electrickery or Persecution coming from those decks, especially now that Pyromancer is going to get less popular. Right?

So what? TNN is going to return and we knew how last years spring-metagame looked like to deal with the Meerfolk. Boarding the card at the same time your opponent bring in hate for it doesn't make sense.

[Ricca84]

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dread of Night
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Swamp
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Tendrils of Agony


Jona and all, about this list, do you think that grinding station is a reasonable plan vs UWR decks (that board in mage, RIP and some flusterstorms/rebs)?

Is this a reasonable side out/in in this case?

- 4 LED
- BWish
- Chrome
- 2 AN
+ 2 Tendrils
+ 2 CoV
+ Top
+ swamp
+ ETW
+ Abrupt decay

[Narcind]

So I've been VERY disappointed by ad nauseam lately, so m uch so that I'm considering moving it to the sideboard to bring in vs decks that don't pressure your life total in the slightest, and having an empty in the main instead. Opinions?

[Lemnear]

So I've been VERY disappointed by ad nauseam lately, so m uch so that I'm considering moving it to the sideboard to bring in vs decks that don't pressure your life total in the slightest, and having an empty in the main instead. Opinions?

This came up quite a few times already and is a valid approach

[grmpytopdecker]

Went 2-2 last night at my LGS' FNM Legacy (Sanctioned Legacy FTW) playing the Grinding Station list I have been using for a while.

Round 1: 12 Post

"I have no idea what you are playing...some kind of Grixis list?"

I played it safe by fetching basics until I knew there were no Wastelands. Beat him pretty easily 2-0

Round 2: Miracles

Could not fight through permission to get stuff going g1 or g2. 0-2

Round 3: Jund

Opponent made some mistakes in picking things to discard off Thoughtseizes and after losing g1 by not drawing into any tutors I killed him with Ad Nauseum chains both times. 2-1

Round 4: Death and Taxes

Won g1 when he conceded after I created 14 goblins naturally. Locked me out with Thalia, Revoker, Canonist g2 and I missed a turn 3 Ad Nauseum kill from 18 life when it didn't occur to me to petal + cast ritual into Ad Nauseum in response to him porting a land. Oh well


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[KevinH]

So what? TNN is going to return and we knew how last years spring-metagame looked like to deal with the Meerfolk. Boarding the card at the same time your opponent bring in hate for it doesn't make sense.

Yeah, I suppose. Though, to be honest the only case I can think of where I want ETW and they would be bringing in a -1/-1 card would be Golgari Charm out of BUG Delver. I really don't think Zealous Persecution or Electrickery are relevant. I don't see myself boarding ETW in against Persecution decks, and I don't really forsee anyone playing Electrickery.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, I suppose. Though, to be honest the only case I can think of where I want ETW and they would be bringing in a -1/-1 card would be Golgari Charm out of BUG Delver. I really don't think Zealous Persecution or Electrickery are relevant. I don't see myself boarding ETW in against Persecution decks, and I don't really forsee anyone playing Electrickery.

Deathblade plays Persecution; Shardless plays Toxic Deluge; Team America/BUG Tempo plays Golgari Charm ... I Don't see why you want to turn on their removal instead of turning all those into dead draws. EtW is a nice MB option to catch people off-guard without bothering yourself with Ad Nauseam which is pretty unimpressive in ANT at times, while postboard you can Reverse the whole approach and turn their removal blank while you gain time by that to setup PIF or AN (potentially from the board)

[KevinH]

Deathblade plays Persecution; Shardless plays Toxic Deluge; Team America/BUG Tempo plays Golgari Charm ... I Don't see why you want to turn on their removal instead of turning all those into dead draws. EtW is a nice MB option to catch people off-guard without bothering yourself with Ad Nauseam which is pretty unimpressive in ANT at times, while postboard you can Reverse the whole approach and turn their removal blank while you gain time by that to setup PIF or AN (potentially from the board)

I'm not contesting the fact that decks are playing -1/-1 effects. I'm just saying that they're not in the majority of decks where it would be relevant. Am I correct in thinking that ETW is best against the Daze/Spell Pierce strategies where just a small storm count early on can win the game? Basically, ETW is just for Delver decks, except for maybe BUG Delver.

[Togores]

Went today 2-2 at an event. Beating miracles 2-0, 4 color pod 2-0, loosing to infect and a really nightmare of a deck green white zenith with black and red.

He played, knight, wastelands, library, veteran explorer, therapys, deathrite, oozes and tegg.
With a sb of 2-4 massacre games, null rod, and dures + thoughtseize.
Even if i could have won if I got a littl lucky, like drawing a discard or a led in some situations. Was a nightmare of matchup.

Vs miracles i boarded in 3 decay, 2 grip, 2 xantid, 2nd tendrills. Worked well. Even if i resolved nauseam few times. But had to pass thousand turns to win later. We played 5 games with sb. And I won all.

Also vs pod I had a hand of cabal, nauseam, fetch, 2 brainstorm. And 2 lands fetch in play. I eot bs. He notions me!!!! I respond with bs. Leaving a hand of cabal, nauseam, duress and draw usea to have double black. While he is tapped.
Dures, cabal, nauseam. Gg
Its nice nauseam is not draw :D

[bigbobbobber]

Reporting back like I said I would on how Death Wish has been performing for me. Went 2-1-1 the other night with it.

Round One: UWR Stoneblade without Delver, I don't know what to call this deck (no CT or SDT, uses Dig and Monastery Mentor). I play discard for the first couple of turns, but he is always drawing permission after permission while beating me down with double Batterskull. Game two was much the same, except that this time he had Ethersworn Canonist and Meddling Mage turn two and three respectively. Deathwish was cast once in game two to grab Massacre, but with Canonist in play it's too late.

Round Two: Infect. Game one he only has a Daze to stop me, which he misplays and ends up just adding storm for me. Death Wish was only used to showboat and go nuts with tons of storm count adding up. Game two he deals 10 infect damage on turn two. Game three I probe turn one and he doesn't have FoW, I Ad Nauseum and Tendrils for lethal.

Round Three: UWR Stoneblade, very similar from what I can tell to my round one opponent. Game one I rip his hand apart with discard and go for the PiF loop. Game two he has Meddling Mage and Monastery Mentor pumping out Monks for beatdown while holding me down with counter magic in hand. Game three was a funny one as he had TNN, Meddling Mage (naming Tendrils of Agony), and SFM (no Batterskull as I discarded it turn after he tutored for it). I am at 3 life, and draw Death Wish. I cast it for Massacre and reset the board. We play draw go for a few turns while he attempts to rip a Lightning Bolt from the top. Eventually I get there while he draws nothing but cantrips for 3 turns straight.

Round Four: Intentional draw and split because it was getting late.

All in all, Death Wish was okay, but not incredible. In every case that I drew it or cast it, I thought to myself that a Grim Tutor would have been just as good. It wasn't necessarily bad, but not ground shaking either. Some more testing with it will be coming soon.

[lordofthepit]

Its nice nauseam is not draw :D

I think you'd be able to force a draw (tie) or win against Notion Thief if Ad Nauseam said draw: you just repeat it indefinitely until they run out of cards, then they would lose as a state-based action when either player receives priority. If your top card is a 1-cc or greater, you likely also would lose due to having 0 or fewer life, but if your top card is 0-cc, you would never lose life when repeating Ad Nauseam and since Notion Thief would never let you draw a card, the top of your deck never changes. It would be all upside against Notion Thief! :laugh:

[Rokkastut]

Played 6 rounds of Legacy today, list pretty much like Togores but with minor changes in SB.

R1) vs Burn 2-1 (1-0-0)
G1 - This was actually very close, I got down to 1 life before going to an Pif win.
SB: -2 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Tendrils of Agony, +1 Chain of Vapor
G2 - I Ad Nauseam down to 8 with 4 duals in play... didn't see Price of Progress coming...
G3 - Bought myself some time with first Tendrils, then played the second one for the win (Could not Pif because of Tormod's Crypt)

R2) vs ANT (wee, mirrormatch) 2-0 (2-0-0)
Both games was close, but I think I had the advantage due to more experience with the deck.
SB: -2 Sensei's Divining Top, -1 Bayoi, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Tendrils of Agony

R3) vs Bant 2-1 (3-0-0)
G1 - Early win with ANT
SB: -2 Lotus Petal-, 1 Preordain, -2 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Massacre, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Tendrils of Agony (I think...)
G2 - He mulled to 5 but still got there... my draws was terrible and I took a gamble on keeping an sub-par hand...
G3 - He had Meddling Mage (on tutor) and Stoneforge in play with some eqGuipment in hand. Massacre + Therapy and we went into topdeck mode with alot of cards in the yard. I drew Pif.

R4) vs Jund 2-0 (4-0-0)
G1 - Opening hand on the play: Delta, Ritual, Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Therapy, Ponder, Ad Nauseam... :-)
SB: -4 Cabal Therapy, -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Entreat the Angels, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Chain of Vapor
G2 - He had Goyf, Liliana and Deathrite in play, I had Sensei's Divining Top. On my turn I played Ponder... didn't shuffle, 3 LED, 1 Lotus Petal and passed the turn... When he attacked I activated Top, sacced 3 LED and Petal in response and got myself 8 4/4 Angels... he didn't see that one coming.

R5/semi) vs Imperial Painter 2-1 (5-0-0)
G1 - I have lost the notes of this match, but I somewhat recall dealing 20 damage fairly quickly
SB: -2 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Rebuild, +1 Chain of Vapor
G2 - Blood Moon got there...
G3 - Therapied a double Blood Moon on turn 1, I went for the win the turn before he could go off.

R6/final vs Miracles 2-0 (6-0-0)
G1 - I knew what he was on, so navigated my way around counterspells and clique, it worked.
SB: -1 Preordain, -2 Lotus Petal, -2 Cabal Ritual, -2 Cabal Therapy, -1 Swamp, +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Xantid Swarm, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Entreat the Angels
G2 - This was a grindy grindy game going back and forth. Abrupt Decay took care of Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top helped me with the draws, Xantid Swarm baited a counterspell then Carpet of Flowers allowed me to play around his softcounter for the win.

All in all a good feeling, but I see that some of my plays are not optimal (need more focus and more competive experience), but luckily I see much more errors in my opponents play (especially post sideboarding). It seems this deck may be just as hard to play against as it is to pilot... I was happy with my SB (got to use all cards in 6 rounds) and maindeck worked fine also, perhaps 2 Top is a bit much (slow) but with my Entreat tech I don't think I can cut it right now.

[Togores]

Yeah sometimes 2nd sensei is really good. Sometimes its slow. Depends on matchups.
Also i think u side not enought answers vs eidolon. I also side in decays. Dont wanna loose cold to that card.

[Ghiwo]

Also i think u side not enought answers vs eidolon. I also side in decays. Dont wanna loose cold to that card.

Do you board in both chain of vapor and decay? Just asking, because I always fear to dilute too much my deck if I bring in also decay, so I just board 3 chains.


@Rokkastut: Entreat the Angels is nice, can I ask you what are the match-ups you bring it in? Is it good against Team America? Don't you fear Terminus and EE when you board it vs. Miracles? Thanks :smile:

[CabalTherapy]

Do you board in both chain of vapor and decay? Just asking, because I always fear to dilute too much my deck if I bring in also decay, so I just board 3 chains.



I think that Rodrigo brings Decays against Burn. On the other hand, I like having 3 Chain of Vapor against them. Paired with Cabal Therapy this should be enough to deal with Eidolon. The probability of Burn drawing Eidolon is low because they don't have tutor or extra draw effects.

[Lemnear]

Do you board in both chain of vapor and decay? Just asking, because I always fear to dilute too much my deck if I bring in also decay, so I just board 3 chains.


@Rokkastut: Entreat the Angels is nice, can I ask you what are the match-ups you bring it in? Is it good against Team America? Don't you fear Terminus and EE when you board it vs. Miracles? Thanks :smile:

You don't dilute the deck if you throw out the Duress' which do not have target of value anyways and replace those with removal for the Eidolons.

Entreat is bullshit. Why would you splash white if you have the on-color man-plan in Pyromancer or EtW at hand? Because you believe YOU can grind out Miracles with THEIR OWN tech?

[Ghiwo]

Entreat is bullshit. Why would you splash white if you have the on-color man-plan in Pyromancer or EtW at hand? Because you believe YOU can grind out Miracles with THEIR OWN tech?

I believe you don't splash white, you just use your LEDs. I never tried them and I first read of them 10 minutes ago, but they could be a sweeper proof version of Etw. You was saying, with right, to another user that is not worth it to play EtW when everybody have tons of hate in their boards to deal with TNN, but if you think about it there's no way for these decks to remove the angels, unless for EE or some "random" stuff. Don't tell me I want to beat Miracles with their cards, because I just asked him how it goes in the Miracles match-up.

[Togores]

Do you board in both chain of vapor and decay? Just asking, because I always fear to dilute too much my deck if I bring in also decay, so I just board 3 chains.


@Rokkastut: Entreat the Angels is nice, can I ask you what are the match-ups you bring it in? Is it good against Team America? Don't you fear Terminus and EE when you board it vs. Miracles? Thanks :smile:


Usualy against burn i side like this:
-4 duress
-2 sensei
-1 nauseam
+2 chain
+3 decay
+1 tendrills

You throw away bad cards for better ones. I know that eidolon is less tan 38% of a problem. But when it comes is a huge one. So I dont wanna loose. Also you can decay a goblin guide, pyrostatic pilar, or reliq away.

[Lemnear]

I believe you don't splash white, you just use your LEDs. I never tried them and I first read of them 10 minutes ago, but they could be a sweeper proof version of Etw. You was saying, with right, to another user that is not worth it to play EtW when everybody have tons of hate in their boards to deal with TNN, but if you think about it there's no way for these decks to remove the angels, unless for EE or some "random" stuff. Don't tell me I want to beat Miracles with their cards, because I just asked him how it goes in the Miracles match-up.

It's not worth to BOARD INTO EtW because of all the sweepers. Boarding in a card which is off-color, still does nothing against EE/Toxic Deluge/etc AND needs setup in the Form of SDT+LED is even worse. If a player is fine with such high requirements, I need to ask why more economic and less clunky options like Pyromancer got dismissed for the "man plan"

[Ghiwo]

It's not worth to BOARD INTO EtW because of all the sweepers. Boarding in a card which is off-color, still does nothing against EE/Toxic Deluge/etc AND needs setup in the Form of SDT+LED is even worse. If a player is fine with such high requirements, I need to ask why more economic and less clunky options like Pyromancer got dismissed for the "man plan"

Did you try the card? I'm asking to the guy who's playing it, he seems quite happy with it. :wink:
Anyway I believe that it could be good in match-ups where you would anyways play your LEDs and petals and board in your second SDT. Also, Deluge is played just in Shardless BUG, and I feel no need to change plan in such a favorable match-up. Against Team America could be good, but i really don't know since I didn't try it. Again, I'm asking to him, because he is the one who plays it.

[Sloshthedark]

I believe you don't splash white, you just use your LEDs. I never tried them and I first read of them 10 minutes ago, but they could be a sweeper proof version of Etw. You was saying, with right, to another user that is not worth it to play EtW when everybody have tons of hate in their boards to deal with TNN, but if you think about it there's no way for these decks to remove the angels, unless for EE or some "random" stuff. Don't tell me I want to beat Miracles with their cards, because I just asked him how it goes in the Miracles match-up.

I tried that 1-2 MD in Doomsday 1-2 years ago, resulted into some awesome moments (like win vs Cannonist+ Mindcensor+ Leonine arbiter) and some clunky keeps, stuff like T2 5 angels is possible but no significant improvement overall (played in only 2 tournaments or so), looked stronger vs. permanent based hate rather than counterspells for what I remember

Actually I have a 5C "special" I wanted to try out this week for fun, feat. 10 W cards in the board

[Ghiwo]

Thanks a lot for your help, I was just asking, I like trying new cards. I hoped it could be good against Team America, because I bring in my second SDT and if they board out some decays I usually land my LEDs to protect them from Hymns. I believe that is a very though match-up unless you play perfectly and the deck helps you a bit, so I hoped we found a new card to achieve some free wins with.

[Surfinbird]

Hi! A bit late but I post the results of this week, the forth one of testing in cockatrice. I try to play only against Good players, if i see an oponent playing horribly or doing lots of mistakes i simply don't note the results.

This week i've played only 13 games, winning all of them, with 2 preordains, 1 Grim tutor and 7 discard spells and the next sideboard:

3 Dread of night
3 Abrupt decay
2 Sensei's divining top
2 Xantid swarm
2 Surgical extraction
2 Chain of vapor
1 Krosan grip

After 4 weeks the result is 73-18, more than an 80%. In the only medium/big tournament i've played these last weeks I unfortunately reached the 10th place after a 5-1-1 result (began the day losing to being too sleepy,stupid me). Here are the results classified by matchups:

VS MIRACLES: 12-4
VS TEAM AMERICA 1-0
VS UR DELVER 2-0
VS DEATHBLADE: 3-1
VS JESKAI STONEBLADE: 3-0
VS PATRIOT: 2-1
VS ANT: 3-0
VS OMMITELL
VS SNEAK ATTACK 0-1
VS CANADIAN 4-1
VS BRUG TEMPO: 0-1
VS DEATH AND TAXES: 6-1
VS REANIMATOR: 1-0
VS GWB ZENITH: 2-1
VS UW STONEBLADE 2-0
VS BURN: 1-0
VS JUND: 1-0
VS BUG SHARDLESS 3-1
VS MUD
VS ELVES: 5-1
VS PAINTERS: 1-0
VS DREDGE: 2-0
VS JUNK ROCK 2-0
VS MERFOLKS 1-0
VS GRIXIS DELVER 1-0
VS GRIXIS CONTROL 1-1
VS STIFLENOUGHT: 1-0
VS NIC FIT 1-0
VS BW POX 0-1
VS LANDS: 1-0
VS BIG RED: 1-0
VS DARK DEPTHS 2-1
VS JESKAI ASCENDANCY 1-1
VS AFFINITY: 1-0
VS BUG CONTROL 1-0
VS SLIVERS: 1-0
VS GOBLIN STOMPY 0-1
VS ZOMBARDMENT 1-0
VS INFECT 1-0

Happy with the Good results against miracles, delver decks, stoneblade, death&Taxes and.Elves. I'd like to test a lot more against Team America, i think it's the worst pairing we.have, but playing perfectly can turn it into a 60/40 maybe.

I'll keep posting!

[Rokkastut]

Hello,


Yeah sometimes 2nd sensei is really good. Sometimes its slow. Depends on matchups.
Also i think u side not enought answers vs eidolon. I also side in decays. Dont wanna loose cold to that card.

I did not see any Eidelon in game one, but he played 4 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Goblin Guide and 4 Vexing Devil, so I felt keeping the discard was a safer choice (to take out Mindbreak Trap), against other burn builds I would probably have sided different.


@Rokkastut: Entreat the Angels is nice, can I ask you what are the match-ups you bring it in? Is it good against Team America? Don't you fear Terminus and EE when you board it vs. Miracles? Thanks :smile:

Entreat is bullshit. Why would you splash white if you have the on-color man-plan in Pyromancer or EtW at hand? Because you believe YOU can grind out Miracles with THEIR OWN tech?

I believe you don't splash white, you just use your LEDs. I never tried them and I first read of them 10 minutes ago, but they could be a sweeper proof version of Etw. You was saying, with right, to another user that is not worth it to play EtW when everybody have tons of hate in their boards to deal with TNN, but if you think about it there's no way for these decks to remove the angels, unless for EE or some "random" stuff. Don't tell me I want to beat Miracles with their cards, because I just asked him how it goes in the Miracles match-up.

It's not worth to BOARD INTO EtW because of all the sweepers. Boarding in a card which is off-color, still does nothing against EE/Toxic Deluge/etc AND needs setup in the Form of SDT+LED is even worse. If a player is fine with such high requirements, I need to ask why more economic and less clunky options like Pyromancer got dismissed for the "man plan"

Strong opinions about this one... ETA has worked perfect for me in playtesting. Especially against decks with discard (Jund, Pox, BUG etc) and also Miracles. Considering I only need a single LED in play or two Lotus Petals, the color/cost of the card has never been an issue. Also with two Sensei's Divining Top maindeck (and ofcourse the 4 Brainstorm) there is usually not a problem to get it on top of library either. I have chosen this card instead of Pyromancer because of the; surprise factor (not many see it coming so they are usually not prepared), if the coast is clear it's a one card win (better than Ad Nauseam), and it is hard to deal with if they don't have EE. It is also just a 1 SB card commitment in the flex slot. I have considered to change it, but at the current moment it works very good. I understand some of you would prefer other options, please do, so I still can have the surprise factor in the future :-)

[Lemnear]

Miracles usually leaves some sweepers in for EtW/Pyromancer/etc. and with all their Library Manipulation, it's pure gambling to ride the man-plan to victory, especially if it's an all-in-move like Entreat with pretty iffY setup via double Petal/LED and "only" 2 SDT.

The appeal of Pyromancer was it's low commitment cost to Force Miracles into a position of having to waste resources to deal with it instead of establishing a lock. Entreat however is an unprotected YOLO move (because protecting it as an instant with active mana-invesent via Discard is counter-intuitive) which loses the game if it meets a Counterspell/Stifle/Pierce/Flusterstorm/etc. I can barely think of a scenario in which Entreat is a better topdeck against a defenseless opponent than AN or PIF

[Sloshthedark]

Surfinbird - nice, will track my stats too
Rokkastutt+Ghiwo - I dont consider it tested by me by no means, just general impression, I can see potentional from EtA in those far behind situations, where only a miracle can save you, extended permanent hate, low on card and life etc. on the other hand it does not seem consistent or systematic enough, I'd think it very weak vs. Miracles on it's own, where it suffers a one trick pony effect like pyromancer, also playing out leds vs EE ans Snapcaster+disenchant/weartear is not optimal... But might be playable vs. UBG postboard as it's space efficient an there is no clear sb card for the MU

[Firefight]

Hi Everyone,

Just returning from a small trip (from one state to another) for the Legacy Champs side event at GP Mexico 2015.

Played with ANT, the deck list is the following:

http://imagebin.ca/v/1qO7mEQgsdUe

I do apologize for the bad writting :eek:

I was ranked 9th out of 50 ppl.

There was a total of 6 rounds and then top 8, this is my first Legacy "Big" Event, as the legacy scene where I'm is mostly vague and almost not played, nevertheless that has not stopped me at all in order to get all my cards and build a decent legacy collection.

so , here it is a small report.

Round 1 - Rafa with BURN

Game 1 : He does not know what I'm playing , this is my slight advantage until he drops turn one goblin guide revealing a infernal tutor, his turn two I pray for him not having Eidolon and he doesn't but, this does not matter as he dropped 1 more goblin and 2 Swiftspears, a bit of burn added sealed the deal.

Sideboard: - 1 Ad Nauseam, -3 Duress, - 1 Preordain, - 1 SDT , + 1 Tendrils of Agony, +3 Abrupt decay, +2 CoV

Game 2: Turn 1 volcanic island + ponder, to find a Cabal Therapy, pass the turn, his first turn was goblin guide revealing basic swamp, turn 2 I cast CT naming Eidolong to find land, pyrostatic pillar :rolleyes: , swiftspear, bolt and PoP, place land and pass the turn. his turn two attacked and put Pyrostatic in play. Turn 3 brainstorm sculpt my hand to a nice tendrils x8 leaving him at 2 and me on 15+ , turns later I find tendrils #2 and win. Him not being able to cast anything and only hitting with Goblin Guide was a relief.

Game 3: He mulls to 5, gets flooded and go with the match.

1-0

Round 2 - Armando with Miracles

Game 1: Win the dice, gitaxian probe reveals Jace, Counterspell, Top, land, land, swords to plowshares, entreat the angels, take the Top , then I put land, DR, DR, LED, Petal, Infernal put land on the GY go for Ad Nauseam and win.

I]Sideboard: - 1 Duress, -1 Cabal Therapy, - 1 Preordain, 1 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 SDT - , +3 Abrupt decay, +2 XS + 1 FS [/I]

Game 2 : his turn one was SDT, I casted Blind Cabal Therapy naming Counterbalance, he discard his only counterbalance revealing no counters, next turn I attempt to go off just missing one card from his hand, casted Ad Nauseam, he uses top to see top three, founds nothing and I won.

2-0

Round 3 - Andres with Esper Deathblade

Game 1: I kept a slow hand and with bunch of rituals and the led, was never able to find the tutor, he slowly ripped my hand with thoughtseize , Hymn and Liliana, batterskull and SFM killed me.

Sideboard: - 4 Cabal Therapy , - 1 Preordain , -1 Gitaxian + 3 Abrupt decay, + 1 FS + 2 Massacre

Game 2: I mull to 5 , no Sideboard cards, no SDT, turn 1 duress discards liliana, but he finds another one, never get to recover and die.

2-1

Round 4 - Rodrigo with Elves

Game 1: First games are the easiest as they usually don't know what are you playing, he kept a slow hand, on my turn two I discarded the only Natural Order in his hand and go off on turn three, pretty easy.

Sideboard: I expected discard , gaddock or ruric thar, and possible Null Rod , - 1 Preordain, - 3 Duress , -2 Gitaxian - 2 Lotus Petal , + 3 Abrupt decay, 2 CoV , +1 FS +2 Massacre

Game 2: I really was expecting to win this one after turn 2 I was able to discard NO that was about to be played, but he topdeck another one and I died.
Game 3: Kept a hand with 2 Cabal Ritual, infernal Tutor, SDT, land, Cabal Therapy and ponder, pretty good in my opinion, was sculpting and got 3 Cabal Ritual, I discarded NO again, but he found Cabal Therapy discarding Infernal and flashbacking for the rituals, he beat me to death with 1/1s .

2-2

Round 5 - Andrea with BUG Delver (Italian guy)

Game 1: He had 2 Deathrite shaman on play , no counters and they were both active, only 1 Bayou is untapped, my turn, I started to go off and pray , thank god the match was not familiar for him , casted past in flames, and after I flashbacked the first ritual he responded by removing Past In Flames, I was crying in tears of Joy, I said .... OK :wink: , and continue with my thing, he stopped me and told me : You can't do that, past in flames needs to be in the graveyard for you to do that , I explained him how the card works and Win.

Sideboard: - 4 Cabal Therapy , - 1 Preordain , -2 Gitaxian -1 Lotus Petal / + 3 Abrupt decay, + 1 FS + 2 CoV + 2 Carpet of Flowers

Game 2: My hand was good, 1 island and SDT, He played delver on turn 1 and did not flipped until turn 5, he flooded as a Lands deck and I see no other land until turn 6 or 7, had everything but black mana for a few turns , he played Chill (?) which I was cool with, and after he left me on 3 life, my last turn, decided not to use Top ability because all my rituals were cabal ritual, draw no land, spin the top ....... LAND !!!!!! god bless you SDT, Cabal Ritual ? No Daze, with 5 mana I used 1 discard spell to see no Counterspells, and was able to go off from there.

3-2

Round 6 Jose with Maverick

Game 1 : Cantrip hand and good value spells meet a turn 2 thalia , all my dreams tear apart from that game, I tried with all my heart to go off, but not enough rituals made it impossibru.

Sideboard: - 3 Duress , - 1 Preordain , -1 Lotus Petal - 1 Gitaxian Probe - 1 SDT / + 3 Abrupt decay, + 2 CoV +2 Massacre

Game 2: He did played Thalia, but a good guy Massacre wipe his board away, a turn later I started to combo off, made a huge mistake and used Flashback infernal tutor to go for a ritual, but in my head a second infernal was in the yard, but it was not, as I was not aware of it, I continued comboing , counting mana and spells, opponent stopped me and conceded for game three, friends told me of my mistake later.

Game 3: He was packed, Thalia , Mother of runes, Scavenging Ooze, Knight and Surgical , Deathrite Shaman, but only one land, he Rushes himself to see my hand using surgical on one of my ponders, he saw double CoV , LED, Infernal, Rituals, when everything was on play, End of Turn CoV to mother, then Main Phase CoV to thalia was enough to be able to chain the spells for the win.

4-2

I got away with 12 points in 9th place, I was really expecting to see more Delver Decks , but 2 Elves and Show and Tell/Omniscience , Esper 2 Lands and UWR Stoneblade decks made the top.

What I learn?



2 SDT on main is just sweet, this was in place of preordain and Grim tutor before , I was grateful on my matches to see them instead of the other 2 cards that were replaced, I ended up trading the Grim tutor in the event for other cards and money.

Tendrils of agony in the sideboard just saved my ass against Burn in round 1, I appreciate Rodrigo Advice and made the switch instead of using Empty the Warrens.

Even when you are loosing or have nothing in hand, don't get nervous in the face of the opponent, this win me a match on round 6.

6 rounds is not a big big event but still you need to eat something :s



Overall, this was a great event, all my opponents were great players and nice people, nerves go away after round 2, there is always room to improve, I'm more and more convinced now that ANT is the deck I want to play, feels powerful even with all the discard running out there.

Thanks for reading and for all your comments.

[KevinH]

Some more questions:

What's better in the MD? Badlands or Bayou?

Why sideboard an extra copy of Tendrils?

Why sideboard an extra copy of Ad Nauseam?

[wonderPreaux]

Some more questions:

What's better in the MD? Badlands or Bayou?
It depends on what cards you want to support. If you rely heavily on cantrips instead of Top or w/e, theres a case for running neither because theyre not blue sources. If you run Xantid Swarm and Decay heavily, you probably want Bayou. If you run Pyromancers or something else red intensive, you want Badlands.


Why sideboard an extra copy of Tendrils?
Resiliency. Being able to build natural storm against counters or burn is valuable against decks like Delver, Stoneblade etc.


Why sideboard an extra copy of Ad Nauseam?
Speed. Ad Nauseam is a fast, albeit unstable, way to to pounce in combo mirrors.

[Surfinbird]

Some more questions:

What's better in the MD? Badlands or Bayou?

Why sideboard an extra copy of Tendrils?

Why sideboard an extra copy of Ad Nauseam?


1.It depends on your sideboard configuration. If you play abrupt decay, krosan grip, xantid swarm, city of solitude or carpet of flowers, you should play Bayou. If in your sideboard are more red cards (young pyromancer, pyroclasm, empty the warrens) than green ones, then play bayou.

2. It works well in the miracles pairing, where storm spells are always good. Also is a good card to swamp with Ad Nauseam against decks with a fast clock. I haven't played it, so other players will explain the reasons better than me.

3. It makes our deck faster, so it's good against other combo decks. Works well against really slow decks like miracles or lands i imagine. Again, i haven't tested this option, but i think i'd never play it without at least one chrome mox to support it, like Kai does.

[KevinH]

So, in my current sideboard I'm playing a good number of both Green and Red cards.

3 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens

Even though I have more Green cards than Red, I still feel like I would rather have the Badlands. My logic is that matchups in which you would want the Green cards are ones where your lone Tropical Island is most likely to be safe. However, the matchups where you want Pyroclasm and Empty the Warrens are against decks that likely contain Wasteland. Does that make sense?

[wonderPreaux]

So, in my current sideboard I'm playing a good number of both Green and Red cards.

3 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens

Even though I have more Green cards than Red, I still feel like I would rather have the Badlands. My logic is that matchups in which you would want the Green cards are ones where your lone Tropical Island is most likely to be safe. However, the matchups where you want Pyroclasm and Empty the Warrens are against decks that likely contain Wasteland. Does that make sense?

Out of curiosity, what Wasteland deck are you bringing 'Clasm in against?

[KevinH]

Out of curiosity, what Wasteland deck are you bringing 'Clasm in against?

D&T and UWR Delver/Other Meddling Mage decks (Deathblade)

[wonderPreaux]

D&T and UWR Delver/Other Meddling Mage decks (Deathblade)

I think Decay is probably fine there, as cracking fetches in their end step and decaying stops them from playing another hate bear that turn or, in the case of UWx, countering your removal. In that particular case, I'm inclined to think that Bayou would be better because 'Clasm isn't that necessary for you.

[KevinH]

I think Decay is probably fine there, as cracking fetches in their end step and decaying stops them from playing another hate bear that turn or, in the case of UWx, countering your removal. In that particular case, I'm inclined to think that Bayou would be better because 'Clasm isn't that necessary for you.

Quite often, I find myself facing down not just one hatebear but a whole gang - Thalia, Revoker, Canonist, Spirit, etc.

I certainly do bring in Decay, but I don't agree that Pyroclasm isn't necessary. Pyroclasm is also good against UWR because not only does it remove bears, it also buys you time if you need to, killing both Delver and SFM in addition to the other sideboarded x/2s.

[Togores]

@firefight

Congrats on your result Bro. Semms like the adviced helped you. at least for my part I would have sidebarded completly diferent in some matchups.

R1 Burn
YOU
Sideboard: - 1 Ad Nauseam, -3 Duress, - 1 Preordain, - 1 SDT , + 1 Tendrils of Agony, +3 Abrupt decay, +2 CoV
ME
Sideboard: - 1 Ad Nauseam, -3 Duress, , - 2 SDT , + 1 Tendrils of Agony, +3 Abrupt decay, +2 CoV

You need to move fast, and preordain lets you be faster than sensei.

R2 Miracles

I]Sideboard: - 1 Duress, -1 Cabal Therapy, - 1 Preordain, 1 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 SDT - , +3 Abrupt decay, +2 XS + 1 FS [/I]
if you wanna board the xantid:
-2 therapy -1 preordain -2 lotus -1 island
+1 tendrills +3 decay +2 xantid

Flsuterstorm is bad against counterbalance
alsoyou can let the therapys there and not board the xantids
You can also side out 2 cabal ritual and board in 2 carpets, depends if they have explosives, rest in pieces and so on.


R3 DEATHBLADE

Sideboard: - 4 Cabal Therapy , - 1 Preordain , -1 Gitaxian + 3 Abrupt decay, + 1 FS + 2 Massacre

Does it had wastelands? more than 2? hymns?

I would never side out discard vs a blue deck if they are not a combo one where I put in xantid.

Also I NEVER EVER EVER BOARD OUT GITAXiAN. The card is just nuts.

Also I only board fluster vs combo decks, storm, elves or show and tell.

-1 preordain -2 petals (low on wasteland)
+3 decay or
-2 petals -1 preordain -1 island (no wasteland)
+2 massacre +2 decay
-2 petals (full wastelands)
+2 massacre

This is never a 100% sb because this kind of decks can change so much.

R4 elves
Sideboard: I expected discard , gaddock or ruric thar, and possible Null Rod , - 1 Preordain, - 3 Duress , -2 Gitaxian - 2 Lotus Petal , + 3 Abrupt decay, 2 CoV , +1 FS +2 Massacre

-1 swamp -3 therapy +2 chain +2 flusterstorm

r5 Bug delver

I would side nothing. May be
-1 preordain -1 petal/sensei +2 chain for null rod or deathrite chaman.

r6 maverik

Sideboard: - 3 Duress , - 1 Preordain , -1 Lotus Petal - 1 Gitaxian Probe - 1 SDT / + 3 Abrupt decay, + 2 CoV +2 Massacre


Here you have to be fast if they live to his turn 3 you are dead I think.
-1 preordain -2 sensei -4 duress (im not so sure, striping zenith is cool may be -3 therapy depends on what kind of deck they play). +3 decay +2 massacre +2 chain

Thats my thoughts. Maverik and bug delver always give me hard problems when sideboarding. And also deathblade depends a lot on what cards they play.

[KevinH]

Additionally, if you're saving your fetchland to endstep it and fetch your single red source, you're likely not able to use all your cantrips to their maximum potential to set up the kill. Games against D&T can actually take quite awhile unless you draw the nut T1/T2 hand, and I feel like in those scenarios you really want to have access to at least two red lands to get around Wasteland/Port.

Contrast that to matchups where you would prioritize Decay/Swarm such as Miracles or Griselbrand decks, and you'll notice that the single Tropical Island is usually enough.

[wonderPreaux]

Additionally, if you're saving your fetchland to endstep it and fetch your single red source, you're likely not able to use all your cantrips to their maximum potential to set up the kill. Games against D&T can actually take quite awhile unless you draw the nut T1/T2 hand, and I feel like in those scenarios you really want to have access to at least two red lands to get around Wasteland/Port.

Contrast that to matchups where you would prioritize Decay/Swarm such as Miracles or Griselbrand decks, and you'll notice that the single Tropical Island is usually enough.

In the situations you noted about mass hatebears or needing time against UWx, Decay+Massacre probably serves you better than Decay+Pyroclasm anyway. You wouldn't need to contort around wastleand/port when youre removing at instant speed or using massacre, also, you can cantrip just fine using your basics.

moreover, being able to fetch a bayou against Miracles/Griselbrand is actually pretty relevant, as you can often need black or double black to combo off quickly, and being stuck on tropical island can be a real detriment.

[Firefight]

@firefight

Congrats on your result Bro. Semms like the adviced helped you. at least for my part I would have sidebarded completly diferent in some matchups.

R1 Burn
YOU
Sideboard: - 1 Ad Nauseam, -3 Duress, - 1 Preordain, - 1 SDT , + 1 Tendrils of Agony, +3 Abrupt decay, +2 CoV
ME
Sideboard: - 1 Ad Nauseam, -3 Duress, , - 2 SDT , + 1 Tendrils of Agony, +3 Abrupt decay, +2 CoV

You need to move fast, and preordain lets you be faster than sensei.

R2 Miracles

I]Sideboard: - 1 Duress, -1 Cabal Therapy, - 1 Preordain, 1 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 SDT - , +3 Abrupt decay, +2 XS + 1 FS [/I]
if you wanna board the xantid:
-2 therapy -1 preordain -2 lotus -1 island
+1 tendrills +3 decay +2 xantid

Flsuterstorm is bad against counterbalance
alsoyou can let the therapys there and not board the xantids
You can also side out 2 cabal ritual and board in 2 carpets, depends if they have explosives, rest in pieces and so on.


R3 DEATHBLADE

Sideboard: - 4 Cabal Therapy , - 1 Preordain , -1 Gitaxian + 3 Abrupt decay, + 1 FS + 2 Massacre

Does it had wastelands? more than 2? hymns?

I would never side out discard vs a blue deck if they are not a combo one where I put in xantid.

Also I NEVER EVER EVER BOARD OUT GITAXiAN. The card is just nuts.

Also I only board fluster vs combo decks, storm, elves or show and tell.

-1 preordain -2 petals (low on wasteland)
+3 decay or
-2 petals -1 preordain -1 island (no wasteland)
+2 massacre +2 decay
-2 petals (full wastelands)
+2 massacre

This is never a 100% sb because this kind of decks can change so much.

R4 elves
Sideboard: I expected discard , gaddock or ruric thar, and possible Null Rod , - 1 Preordain, - 3 Duress , -2 Gitaxian - 2 Lotus Petal , + 3 Abrupt decay, 2 CoV , +1 FS +2 Massacre

-1 swamp -3 therapy +2 chain +2 flusterstorm

r5 Bug delver

I would side nothing. May be
-1 preordain -1 petal/sensei +2 chain for null rod or deathrite chaman.

r6 maverik

Sideboard: - 3 Duress , - 1 Preordain , -1 Lotus Petal - 1 Gitaxian Probe - 1 SDT / + 3 Abrupt decay, + 2 CoV +2 Massacre


Here you have to be fast if they live to his turn 3 you are dead I think.
-1 preordain -2 sensei -4 duress (im not so sure, striping zenith is cool may be -3 therapy depends on what kind of deck they play). +3 decay +2 massacre +2 chain

Thats my thoughts. Maverik and bug delver always give me hard problems when sideboarding. And also deathblade depends a lot on what cards they play.

Thank you, yeah my sideboarding plan against Esper was a mess, I need to practice more on that, at the end, I'm happy with this configuration, you were right, SDT is a blast, second tendrils saved my ass against burn (this is the slot where I had EtW) which would have result useless, and basically I just need more and more practice.

[KevinH]

In the situations you noted about mass hatebears or needing time against UWx, Decay+Massacre probably serves you better than Decay+Pyroclasm anyway. You wouldn't need to contort around wastleand/port when youre removing at instant speed or using massacre, also, you can cantrip just fine using your basics.

moreover, being able to fetch a bayou against Miracles/Griselbrand is actually pretty relevant, as you can often need black or double black to combo off quickly, and being stuck on tropical island can be a real detriment.

I've always been wary of Massacre because it can't beat Gaddock Teeg. I realize that nobody plays Teeg anymore but it still bothers me. It's also really bad with Ad Nauseam.

[Firefight]

I've always been wary of Massacre because it can't beat Gaddock Teeg. I realize that nobody plays Teeg anymore but it still bothers me. It's also really bad with Ad Nauseam.

You have Abrupt decay and CoV against teeg

[wonderPreaux]

You have Abrupt decay and CoV against teeg

^ This. Also, against UWR Delver and DnT, you shouldnt have Ad Nauseam in your main anyway in a lot of cases. Even against Esper, where you'd want Massacre and Ad Nauseam, their deck is comparatively glacial so using Ad Nauseam as a draw 7 or w/e is perfectly fine.

[KevinH]

^ This. Also, against UWR Delver and DnT, you shouldnt have Ad Nauseam in your main anyway in a lot of cases. Even against Esper, where you'd want Massacre and Ad Nauseam, their deck is comparatively glacial so using Ad Nauseam as a draw 7 or w/e is perfectly fine.

Really? I always thought D&T is one of the matches where you wanted Ad Nauseam. I agree that you don't want it vs UWR, but why not against D&T?

[wonderPreaux]

Really? I always thought D&T is one of the matches where you wanted Ad Nauseam. I agree that you don't want it vs UWR, but why not against D&T?

Your deck isn't well-suited to going off fast, due to Cabal Ritual, so it can be difficult in the general case to combo quickly before a hatebear arrives. Since you, more often than not, will have a constrained life total and mana base, it makes more sense to try and tutor chain or PiF after breaking the hate cards than trying a high-risk Ad Nauseam

[KevinH]

Your deck isn't well-suited to going off fast, due to Cabal Ritual, so it can be difficult in the general case to combo quickly before a hatebear arrives. Since you, more often than not, will have a constrained life total and mana base, it makes more sense to try and tutor chain or PiF after breaking the hate cards than trying a high-risk Ad Nauseam

I always treated Ad Nauseam as a card that enabled your nut draws on t1/t2 against non-blue decks, as I almost never want it in the late scenarios of any game. Is that inaccurate?

[Firefight]

I always treated Ad Nauseam as a card that enabled your nut draws on t1/t2 against non-blue decks, as I almost never want it in the late scenarios of any game. Is that inaccurate?

ANT is not a turn 1 , turn 2 combo deck, its more like a turn 3 - 4 combo deck, your plan is to build up an unbeatable hand with discard , tutors and rituals.

Think about it as a control deck, you need to stabilize the board and be saved before going off, otherwise you can refer to the TES thread

[wonderPreaux]

I always treated Ad Nauseam as a card that enabled your nut draws on t1/t2 against non-blue decks, as I almost never want it in the late scenarios of any game. Is that inaccurate?

That's not wrong, but the chance that you have to play past turn 2 is pretty high. This isn't TES, your no-mana-floating yolo ad nauseam isn't a strong win, especially when your deck now has a bunch of abrupt decays and (in your case) pyroclasms in it and in the case where i do have to sit back and build up lands/removal for the win, the last thing id want to draw is ad nauseam, i'd much rather see massacre.

Massacre is a 1-mana way to clear the hatebears, which you can play off basics, and lets you aim your chains/decays at GY hate so you can just PiF them out. Chain can also be a make-shift storm engine too, so you can do clean kills instead of risky Ad Nauseams. I would rather take a card out when it's gonna be dead a lot of the time than keep a dead draw on the off chance that I can flop an easy win every now and then.

EDIT: To summarize the point, ANT is a t3 deck a lot of the time, so it's not statistically viable to try and race a card that comes in t2. The reason why youd race something like Griselbrand with extra ad nauseams is that griselbrand will end you effectively immediately, whereas a hatebear dicks around a while waiting to get murdered.

[KevinH]

That's not wrong, but the chance that you have to play past turn 2 is pretty high. This isn't TES, your no-mana-floating yolo ad nauseam isn't a strong win, especially when your deck now has a bunch of abrupt decays and (in your case) pyroclasms in it and in the case where i do have to sit back and build up lands/removal for the win, the last thing id want to draw is ad nauseam, i'd much rather see massacre.

Massacre is a 1-mana way to clear the hatebears, which you can play off basics, and lets you aim your chains/decays at GY hate so you can just PiF them out. Chain can also be a make-shift storm engine too, so you can do clean kills instead of risky Ad Nauseams. I would rather take a card out when it's gonna be dead a lot of the time than keep a dead draw on the off chance that I can flop an easy win every now and then.

Would you say to cut Pyroclasm for Massacre then?

[wonderPreaux]

Would you say to cut Pyroclasm for Massacre then?

Unless you really hate Elves, yeah, i'd just lean on massacre, play that bayou if you don't mind 2 non-blue lands, that sorta thing.

[firstshot]

I made the finals and Ben Ball finished t20 with this list at the SCG Legacy event in Indy

1 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
1 Grim Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Dark Confidant
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
2 Defense Grid
2 Pyroclasm(not pryoblast)

My match ups were as followed. Ben Ball and I only played 2 Abrupt Decay's b/c we only wanted them for Miracles and wanted to add the Empty to the SB for RUG which we expected to have a bigger showing. My 2 losses in the swiss were to UWR Delver and shardless bug.

rd 1 burn
rd 2 miracles
rd 3 maverick
rd 4 storm mirror
rd 5 Elves
rd 6 punishing lands
rd 7 sneak and show
rd 8 RUG delver
rd 9 blue lands

rd 10 uwr delver
rd 11 shardless bug
rd 12 death and taxes
rd 13 sneak and show
rd 14 maverick
rd 15 ID

t8 elves
t4 mirror
Finals Bug Delver

[Firefight]

I made the finals and Ben Ball finished t20 with this list at the SCG Legacy event in Indy

1 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
1 Grim Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Dark Confidant
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
2 Defense Grid
2 Pyroblast

My match ups were as followed. Ben Ball and I only played 2 Abrupt Decay's b/c we only wanted them for Miracles and wanted to add the Empty to the SB for RUG which we expected to have a bigger showing. My 2 losses in the swiss were to UWR Delver and shardless bug.

rd 1 burn
rd 2 miracles
rd 3 maverick
rd 4 storm mirror
rd 5 Elves
rd 6 punishing lands
rd 7 sneak and show
rd 8 RUG delver
rd 9 blue lands

rd 10 uwr delver
rd 11 shardless bug
rd 12 death and taxes
rd 13 sneak and show
rd 14 maverick
rd 15 ID

t8 elves
t4 mirror
Finals Bug Delver

Hi Ben, gratz on your finish, how was the pyroblast on your sideboard, and what are your thoughts on Grim tut?

[firstshot]

Hi Ben, gratz on your finish, how was the pyroblast on your sideboard, and what are your thoughts on Grim tut?

Oops. Thats a typo on SCG's site that I copied from. It should be 2x Pyroclasm.

[sawatarix]

Guys, breaking news !

Well first of all, i moved to Japan (Tokyo) and i will stay there for lets say at least a few years.It all depends on my work there and other stuff like women and success and so on, you know what i mean.
BUT ! I played in a legacy tournament today and there was a guy who played 4 Lim-Duls Vaults in his Deck instead of Ponder.
He won the tournament.

I talked to him afterwards and he told me how awesome this card is, basically a 2 mana vampiric tutor (you pay 1-3 life normally) with also an insight about the next 4 cards.Combined with Gitaxian Porbe and of course Brainstorm it could be a new direction for the deck.
Gitaxian Probes should sit in our hands until we resolved a lim-duls vault to get as deep in the almost *doomsday*pile as possible, brainstorm can almost draw the complete pile.

Don't get me wrong guys: Im not saying that playing Lim Dul OVER Ponder is good, it isn't. But what about playing lets say 3 copies of lim dul over the preordain/2nd pif/grim/2nd ad nauseam/...slots ?
I took a few opening hands and they were actually not bad.
So what I'm gonna do is to test this new idea over and over again for the next couple of weeks and tell you about my results.
But you can also do it yourself, tell me first what you guys think.
I can imagine that we can finally play 7 infernal tutors although lim dul is a card disadvantage-tutor.

check it out !

PS: I knew that Japanese Players are the most creative people.

[Lemnear]

We had LimDul in this deck quite a while ago and the question was not only how many carddisadvantage (also counting discard spend) the deck can afford, but if chaining like a Preordain+Ponder isn't basically achieving the same result without the carddisadvantage if it's sole for the digging for an Infernal.

[wonderPreaux]

I tried lim-dul's myself for a bit, and i feel like the card is awkward. It's tough to play it off basics because then you could only play 1 of your cantrips a turn. It is pretty slow due to needing 2 mana and either a draw step/cantrip. Moreover, the life loss makes it pretty counterproductive to ad nauseam, which is one of the best things to actually find with this as it makes up for the card disadvantage and synergizes well with LED and deck-stacking tricks. It's also really hard to evaluate what to side out if you replace the easy to side-out preordains with cards that you're attempting to value as highly as infernal tutor. However, it does seem like a neat trick to dig for sb cards like abrupt decay or massacre.

[Sloshthedark]

Guys, breaking news !

Well first of all, i moved to Japan (Tokyo) and i will stay there for lets say at least a few years.It all depends on my work there and other stuff like women and success and so on, you know what i mean.
BUT ! I played in a legacy tournament today and there was a guy who played 4 Lim-Duls Vaults in his Deck instead of Ponder.
He won the tournament.

I talked to him afterwards and he told me how awesome this card is, basically a 2 mana vampiric tutor (you pay 1-3 life normally) with also an insight about the next 4 cards.Combined with Gitaxian Porbe and of course Brainstorm it could be a new direction for the deck.
Gitaxian Probes should sit in our hands until we resolved a lim-duls vault to get as deep in the almost *doomsday*pile as possible, brainstorm can almost draw the complete pile.

Don't get me wrong guys: Im not saying that playing Lim Dul OVER Ponder is good, it isn't. But what about playing lets say 3 copies of lim dul over the preordain/2nd pif/grim/2nd ad nauseam/...slots ?
I took a few opening hands and they were actually not bad.
So what I'm gonna do is to test this new idea over and over again for the next couple of weeks and tell you about my results.
But you can also do it yourself, tell me first what you guys think.
I can imagine that we can finally play 7 infernal tutors although lim dul is a card disadvantage-tutor.

check it out !

PS: I knew that Japanese Players are the most creative people.

I can say we have been there with LDV post mystical ban then few years back

in my experience LDV is more of a setup spell looking for a combination of cards (which are multiple copies in the deck, I often just rearranged top 5 cards) rather than a tutor+toolbox application - that simply does not work (well) imo... It's very fun and cool card but also difficult to play, I strongly dislike card disadvantage in Ant, it's U which is a problem and holding back cantrips (which I found a common problem in Doomsday) means holding back wins... on the other hand instant is instant... the concept is very bold, especially as a 4of over ponder, you lack T1/T2 plays... I'd not think someone going that way without U cantrip getting banned...

I don't believe this would be overall better but hard to judge without a complete decklist... I wonder how many SDT does he play... I'm definitely interested

...Reading japanese decklists simply cannot disappoint... btw. is there a special jap site for decklists? major english websites do not cite them much or hardly at all

[.Ix]

I can imagine LDV being better than usual in discard-heavy metagames (which Japanese tournaments seem to be). Responding to some discard spell to set up an unbeatable pile sounds decent.

[Blastoderm]

I can say we have been there with LDV post mystical ban then few years back

....

...Reading japanese decklists simply cannot disappoint... btw. is there a special jap site for decklists? major english websites do not cite them much or hardly at all

www.happymtg.com

[sawatarix]

yeah,it's also kinda similar to an instant 2-Mana doomsday without lifeloss.
I like Senseis Divining Top alot in combination but i don't have a clue if Lim Vault+Top (3 of each for example) are better than let's say 3 preordain+3Ponder.

[Sloshthedark]

I can imagine LDV being better than usual in discard-heavy metagames (which Japanese tournaments seem to be). Responding to some discard spell to set up an unbeatable pile sounds decent.
with SDT it might, you choose your 2 cards to draw


www.happymtg.com

thanx, harder to navigate but is a start... not much innovation in the Ant department, Parallax Nexus the most crazy one


yeah,it's also kinda similar to an instant 2-Mana doomsday without lifeloss.
I like Senseis Divining Top alot in combination but i don't have a clue if Lim Vault+Top (3 of each for example) are better than let's say 3 preordain+3Ponder.

it's about what do you want to achieve, LDV will slow the deck a lot (3C for PiF loop - as the only tutor can be really miserable, blind PiF is a lottery) but improve consistency of oneshot T3-4 goldfish, I'd think it better vs non U and weak U decks, I don't think I'd like to play this against tempo or Miracles or use it for midgame setup - imagine tutoring up a discard spell+something to find out you can't kill yet - down a card (maybe a turn), devastating in a world of DiG imo, SDT is a must imo, I do not like that Pyroblast would actually do something ... LDV screams "counter me" too much, no one counters Ponder.. a common decision whether to BS+fetch T2, or pass- fetch- LDV is not an easy one and I'd rather be doing the 1st in vacuum... but I'll construct something at least for a goldfish to have a try, it's been a year since I cast LDV...

[lordofthepit]

Recently took a really bad beat with Storm, with Brainstorm hitting three lands when all I needed to do was get hellbent with Cabal Therapy in hand. I wrote about it in my blog, if anyone is interested: http://lordofthepit23.blogspot.com/2015/02/lessons-from-bad-beat-with-storm.html

Fortunately, the tournament was just a simple weekly, so my misfortune was more an amusing learning experience than anything else.

Edit: I've forgotten the exact contents of my hand, but I do remember the calculations I went through during the game, so I took some guesses in order to reconstruct the game state to be consistent with what I remember.

[Sloshthedark]

Recently took a really bad beat with Storm, with Brainstorm hitting three lands when all I needed to do was get hellbent with Cabal Therapy in hand. I wrote about it in my blog, if anyone is interested: http://lordofthepit23.blogspot.com/2015/02/lessons-from-bad-beat-with-storm.html

Fortunately, the tournament was just a simple weekly, so my misfortune was more an amusing learning experience than anything else.

Edit: I've forgotten the exact contents of my hand, but I do remember the calculations I went through during the game, so I took some guesses in order to reconstruct the game state to be consistent with what I remember.

Interesting, sometimes this just happens, I'd have lead with a DR though

[Firefight]

Recently took a really bad beat with Storm, with Brainstorm hitting three lands when all I needed to do was get hellbent with Cabal Therapy in hand. I wrote about it in my blog, if anyone is interested: http://lordofthepit23.blogspot.com/2015/02/lessons-from-bad-beat-with-storm.html

Fortunately, the tournament was just a simple weekly, so my misfortune was more an amusing learning experience than anything else.

Edit: I've forgotten the exact contents of my hand, but I do remember the calculations I went through during the game, so I took some guesses in order to reconstruct the game state to be consistent with what I remember.

Question, if the intention is to go off that specific turn, would not cracking the fetch first and after that brainstorm, in the following line :

Board: Underground Sea and Misty , play petal, crack misty, play BS , if he try to daze play dark ritual in response would give you a less percentage of drawing out lands?

[Izor]

Question, if the intention is to go off that specific turn, would not cracking the fetch first and after that brainstorm, in the following line :

Board: Underground Sea and Misty , play petal, crack misty, play BS , if he try to daze play dark ritual in response would give you a less percentage of drawing out lands?

I often do this. It is against the conventions, because in everything but Storm you usually want to keep your Fetches uncracked as long as possible in order to improve your future Brainstorms. In Storm, however, I find myself in situations where I just want to find the three best possible cards on top right now, at which point thinning your deck before resolving the cantrip is often the right play (unless you're digging for Land, obviously).

I also often go turn 1 fetch into Gitaxian Probe for 2 life if I know that I can draw a particular card that will let me go off that turn. Still, I only do this if I know what I'm up against. If you don't know what your opponent plays yet, you may want to get info before deciding what land to get, for instance.

[lordofthepit]

Interesting, sometimes this just happens, I'd have lead with a DR though

Any particular reason for this? I assume you are trying to bait out the Daze to get extra storm, which would make it unnecessary to cast Brainstorm since I would be able to Therapy it out of my hand. Is this typically a line that induces a Daze? The downside is if he doesn't Daze and my Brainstorm hits all lands, I've burned a Dark Ritual and still have to pass the turn, mostly for the upside of presenting a presumably attractive target for Daze.


Question, if the intention is to go off that specific turn, would not cracking the fetch first and after that brainstorm, in the following line :

Board: Underground Sea and Misty , play petal, crack misty, play BS , if he try to daze play dark ritual in response would give you a less percentage of drawing out lands?

I believe this is described by my Option 5, which in retrospect I believe is a better line than the one I took (Option 4). Playing Dark Ritual in response to Daze would not be necessary, since I would only need one initial black source from that point to go off and would not need to cast any blue spells that I hit off Brainstorm (since the storm count would be high enough that I could just Therapy it away). In the unlikely event that I hit three lands off the Brainstorm, I would prefer to still have a Dark Ritual in hand. Please let me know if there's something I'm missing.


I often do this. It is against the conventions, because in everything but Storm you usually want to keep your Fetches uncracked as long as possible in order to improve your future Brainstorms. In Storm, however, I find myself in situations where I just want to find the three best possible cards on top right now, at which point thinning your deck before resolving the cantrip is often the right play (unless you're digging for Land, obviously).

I also often go turn 1 fetch into Gitaxian Probe for 2 life if I know that I can draw a particular card that will let me go off that turn. Still, I only do this if I know what I'm up against. If you don't know what your opponent plays yet, you may want to get info before deciding what land to get, for instance.

Agreed on cracking fetchlands. In a recent storm mirror, I realized I needed to hit discard or business early, and I was on the draw, so I fetched for an Underground Sea before I cast Probe (and my opponent didn't on his Turn 1).

[Sloshthedark]

Any particular reason for this? I assume you are trying to bait out the Daze to get extra storm, which would make it unnecessary to cast Brainstorm since I would be able to Therapy it out of my hand. Is this typically a line that induces a Daze? The downside is if he doesn't Daze and my Brainstorm hits all lands, I've burned a Dark Ritual and still have to pass the turn, mostly for the upside of presenting a presumably attractive target for Daze.


my reaction given the gamestate before reading rest of the article, I'd not take draw 3 lands into account probably and likely end up as you did if Opp doesn't believe me the kill, hard to say if he'd daze unless I faced him but It's the only spot that makes sense for him... I'd do that 9/10 cases



Fetchlands - If I had to write an article or teach someone how to play storm I'd say keeping fetchlands is a dangerous myth (same with autofetching basics) that in longterm works against you, I believe it's a bad habit from playing other mtg decks, you should be able to evaluate minimum number of lands you want in the game and play to it - I've seen good storm players with 3+ fetches in play in situations when any bussiness=win, I've seen a GP winner with 2 fetches against Belcher, I believe you have to have a good reason for more than 1 fetchland in play (and I do fetch upkeep if I have another in hand)... just don't tell my Opps ; )

[lordofthepit]

my reaction given the gamestate before reading rest of the article, I'd not take draw 3 lands into account probably and likely end up as you did if Opp doesn't believe me the kill, hard to say if he'd daze unless I faced him but It's the only spot that makes sense for him... I'd do that 9/10 cases

I was thinking about your line of leading with Dark Ritual, and I think it has one advantage over the line that I took.

If the opponent is extremely aggressive, he can cast Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog very early in our sequencing and ensure that I'm unable to achieve threshold with either Cabal Ritual. This means I'd only be able to generate 7 mana (2 lands, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, two Cabal Rituals without Threshold), which means I cannot beat a Daze if I have to cast Cabal Therapy on myself or if my Brainstorm bricks on any mana. However, the opponent is extremely unlikely to trade in his best card and add one to the storm count until I've shown him a Cabal Ritual or a Past in Flames, as the Crop Rotation represents his clock and his best piece of disruption, plus he doesn't know the contents of the rest of my hand. In that situation, not knowing what my Brainstorm may hit, I feel extremely confident that if I can't kill him this turn, I'm still favored to win the game before he presents any sort of a clock.

Thus, if I sequence as follows:

Dark Ritual. Resolves, BBB in pool, Misty Rainforest still open, five cards in graveyard.
Lotus Petal. Resolves.
Crack Misty Rainforest. Resolves. Potentially 5 mana available, six cards in graveyard.
Crack Lotus Petal (he can't respond to this). Seven cards in graveyard.


At this point I can now cast a first Cabal Ritual which would resolve with Threshold. If he tries to rotate for Bojuka Bog in response, I can respond with the second Cabal Ritual, while having mana to pay through Daze. At this point, it is trivial to get hellbent and get to storm 10.

If I had instead led on Brainstorm or Cabal Therapy targeting myself, there is a decent chance he casts Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog in response to my first Cabal Ritual. I can respond with the second copy, but that loses to Daze as I would not have any mana floating at that point.

So after long deliberation, I think I like your suggestion to lead with Dark Ritual (or Lotus Petal).

[kkkant]

Has bitterblossom ever been considered as a sb option?

[CabalTherapy]

Has bitterblossom ever been considered as a sb option?

Yes, it was part of the discussion last summer but lost to Young Pyromancer.

[Arguru]

Hi guys!I play storm for a year(both ANT and TES) with good results;yesterday i top 8'd a big tournament here in italy(~150 ppl) with ANT,and i want to share with you my list and some impression!

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining top
1 grim tutor
1 ad nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

SIDEBOARD
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Sensei's Divining top
3 Xantid swarm
1 massacre
2 surgical extraction
2 Dread of night
1 krosan grip

I finished undefeated after 8 round of swiss(6-0-2),beating:

• death and taxes(2-1)
• Jund (2-0)
• UWR stoneblade (2-0)
• team america (2-1)
• jund (2-0)
• sneak and show (2-0)

And drawing in round 5 against uw stoneblade(g1 my ad nauseam from 17 life fail to find a business spell)

In the first round of top 8 i lose to a strange uw control...

The main deck feels pretty strong,grim tutor won several match,maybe the only change i would make is to change the sdt with another preordain,but i'm not sure...

I never played against dredge/reanimator/storm,so surgical extraction were useless,the same for miracles and krosan grip...

That's all,if you have any question i'll be happy to answer!

Sorry if my english is not perfect and keep on storming guys!

[Surfinbird]

Hi Arguru, congratulations for the good results!
My list is very similar to yours: In the maindeck I'm running a second Preordain instead of the Sdt, and the sideboard is: 3 Abrupt decay, 3 Dread of nnight, 2 Xantid swarm, 2 Surgical extraction, 2 Chain of vvapor, 2 Sensei's divining top and 1 Krosan grip.

Like you, I've been thinking if the spot of the 2nd Preordain should be a SDT. That seems good in the New (old) Metagame and also gives us an extra sideboard slot (I think 2 tops between MB and SB are needed to fight miracles and other slow/discardbased decks). Otherwise, playing SDT + Grim tutor and only one Preordain has given me some clunky/slow hands.

I think that playing with 2 preordains is better because:
1.In g1 it's easy to win games by just being faster, dealing with a few pieces of disruption.
2.SDT is a beast in long, grindy games where you will win after dealing with lots of hate: counterspells, discard, permanents... That usually happens in G2-3.

In conclusion: 2 preordains MB to take profit of our deck killing in the first turns. 2 SDT in the sideboard to win those difficult g2 and 3 where we need to find lots of answers during lots of turns.

PD: After the 5th week of testing, i've reached the match number 100 of this year (between cockatrice and tournaments), very happy of the 81 victorys and 19 loses! This thursday i'll will attend to a legacy Shop to play a 4round tournament, i hope to return home with a 4-0:wink:

[KevinH]

Just curious, what makes Krosan Grip better than Abrupt Decay?

Also, I remember once reading a European blog talking about a "Turbo Tendrils" deck that included multiple copies of Tendrils of Agony in the maindeck to "brute force" the combo through. Does anyone know what blog I'm talking about? I wanted to go read those articles again.

[Arguru]

Hi Arguru, congratulations for the good results!
My list is very similar to yours: In the maindeck I'm running a second Preordain instead of the Sdt, and the sideboard is: 3 Abrupt decay, 3 Dread of nnight, 2 Xantid swarm, 2 Surgical extraction, 2 Chain of vvapor, 2 Sensei's divining top and 1 Krosan grip.

Like you, I've been thinking if the spot of the 2nd Preordain should be a SDT. That seems good in the New (old) Metagame and also gives us an extra sideboard slot (I think 2 tops between MB and SB are needed to fight miracles and other slow/discardbased decks). Otherwise, playing SDT + Grim tutor and only one Preordain has given me some clunky/slow hands.

I think that playing with 2 preordains is better because:
1.In g1 it's easy to win games by just being faster, dealing with a few pieces of disruption.
2.SDT is a beast in long, grindy games where you will win after dealing with lots of hate: counterspells, discard, permanents... That usually happens in G2-3.

In conclusion: 2 preordains MB to take profit of our deck killing in the first turns. 2 SDT in the sideboard to win those difficult g2 and 3 where we need to find lots of answers during lots of turns.

PD: After the 5th week of testing, i've reached the match number 100 of this year (between cockatrice and tournaments), very happy of the 81 victorys and 19 loses! This thursday i'll will attend to a legacy Shop to play a 4round tournament, i hope to return home with a 4-0:wink:



I have the same idea about sdt vs preordain,and i think i'll cut one of the two dread of night in the side to make room for the second sdt;so i can play with 2 mb preordain,and switch them in g2/3 against slow deck.
I could also cut a xantid swarm instead of a dread of night,but i really like the swarm,and we can beat death and taxes even without a lot of dedicated sideboard slots IMHO...

How did surgical extraction perform in your experience?

[Surfinbird]

I have the same idea about sdt vs preordain,and i think i'll cut one of the two dread of night in the side to make room for the second sdt;so i can play with 2 mb preordain,and switch them in g2/3 against slow deck.
I could also cut a xantid swarm instead of a dread of night,but i really like the swarm,and we can beat death and taxes even without a lot of dedicated sideboard slots IMHO...

How did surgical extraction perform in your experience?

If you play dread of night i wouldn't play less than 3, since it's great in multiples to beat canonist and goddock teeg. They are fantastic against Gw Zenith because they play lots of hatebears and and 2 dreads or even 1 can deal with lots of them. If in your meta there are more death and taxes than GW i'll play 2 massacres and no dreads. In a meta with more Gw, 3 dreads is a good option. And about Xantid, only play 3 of them if there are lots of show and tell decks in your metagame (and if most of them play leyline of sanctity).

Surgical extracction is fine against Storm, Reanimator and dredge. I like it over flusterstorm because usuallly it's more decisive, and also doesn't force you to play with a blue source untapped during the game. In my meta those decks are quite popular, so i'll keep playing 2.

Another point. I've been discussing with another stormplayer about siding in surgicals against omnitells. It's true that taking all show and tells or omnisciences of their deck is a powerful play but to do this you need 4 conditions:

- Having a discard spell in hand
- (They not playing leyline in turn 0)
- Having surgical in hand
- They not having any counterspells
- They having show and tell or omnicience

Also, agaist omnitell you should be siding some discard spells out to play the xantids, so the plan discard+surgical just gets worse

I hope i've helped you:smile:

[Arguru]

In my meta there isn't GW,but i really don't like 2 sb massacre,because they really weakens your ad nauseam plan(and d&t players always side in rip and relic of progenitus) and most of them plays without drop plains,if possible,to dodge massacre...

Concerning xantid swarm,there are a lot of reanimator/s&s/merfolk around here,so i'm happy with 3 of them in my sb,but i understand your opinion!

I 100% agree with you about surgical extraction,i had seen people siding them in against miracles and show and tell,but i think it's wrong.

How do you guys side in/out against miracles?my plan atm is:-2 preordain -4 Lotus petal +2 sdt +3 decay +1 krosan grip

[Surfinbird]

In my meta there isn't GW,but i really don't like 2 sb massacre,because they really weakens your ad nauseam plan(and d&t players always side in rip and relic of progenitus) and most of them plays without drop plains,if possible,to dodge massacre...

Concerning xantid swarm,there are a lot of reanimator/s&s/merfolk around here,so i'm happy with 3 of them in my sb,but i understand your opinion!

I 100% agree with you about surgical extraction,i had seen people siding them in against miracles and show and tell,but i think it's wrong.

How do you guys side in/out against miracles?my plan atm is:-2 preordain -4 Lotus petal +2 sdt +3 decay +1 krosan grip


To avoid the lifeloss of massacre during the Ad Nauseam i played 1 Massacre +1 Pyroclasm for a couple of weeks and they worked well, also ther are good targets for grim tutor in those matchups. Now i've got more SB space and i'm playing 3 dreads of night because GW it's quite popular in my meta.

Against Miracles i side this way:

+3 Abrupt decay +2 SDT +1 Krosan grip
-2 Preordain, -2 Cabal ritual, -1 Lotus petal -1 Island (Underground sea or Lotus Petal#2 if they play some blood moons in SB)

I think that you should leave at least 2 lotus petal, otherwise you will lose thos fast kills that win easy easy and you will make your AN worse too. I like having 3 of them, but i'm not sure if i should side out a second petal instead of the second cabal ritual. I've got fantastic results siding this way (13 wins, 4 loses during this year)