[Deck] Food Chain Combo

[hosermage]

Half of my games I win by beating with griffins. My hardest matchups are against tempo decks like Esper Stoneblade, RUG delver or Grixis delver. Too much counter-magic/disruption, and the clock is too fast. GSZ could be useful, again, but it usually sets you a turn back, and gives them another turn to deal with your threats. That's why I like the Genesis Hydra package, because it is usually never dead. I'd rather have Hydra in hand with no griffin than have a GSZ (there are so many ways to get a griffin, like Manipulate Fate, or Brainstorm, Ponder), and it's also late game threat, and it's also combo tutoring.

If Delver is the issue, what do you guys think of using 3-4 Chalice of the Void as a sideboard plan? We don't play that many 1 drops (8-9 including 4 brainstorm) and if sideboarding this way I'd just swap out 4 brainstorm for 4 chalice.

[Thorhammer]

If Delver is the issue, what do you guys think of using 3-4 Chalice of the Void as a sideboard plan? We don't play that many 1 drops (8-9 including 4 brainstorm) and if sideboarding this way I'd just swap out 4 brainstorm for 4 chalice.

Cutting brainstorm??? What are you nuts? :smile: JK. Chalice is good but trinishpere is better. Shuts down delver cold for the most part and doesn't effect our combo at all. Just makes our cantrips slower. I have been having decent luck against the new grixis delver build with trinisphere and Leyline of the void. Leyline only shuts off dig through time but that card should be banned anyway so it's worth fighting. Extra removal helps too such as murderous cut, extra abrupt decays, and disfigures. Oh and Night of Soul's Betrayal. That card is bonkers good.

[movingtonewao]

I don't think trinisphere is where we want to be at. We still rely on cantrips, forces, abrupt decay, misdirection. Our mana dorks all cost 1, manipulate fate cost 2, baleful strix cost 2. You'll probably slow yourself down so much that they would just play through the trinisphere.

[movingtonewao]

I'm looking at the new kiora thinking it works with this deck perfectly. + ability to ramp when needed, and - ability to look for griffins/creature wincon as required. Will try it out in place of one DTT when BFZ gets released.

Other idea I had: fitting a singleton yisan, the wandering bard.
1cmc targets: noble, drs
2cmc targets: baleful strix, postboard meddling mage
3cmc targets: v clique, fierce empath
4cmc targets: griffin

may be a bit too cute here. just throwing it out.

[Thorhammer]

I don't think trinisphere is where we want to be at. We still rely on cantrips, forces, abrupt decay, misdirection. Our mana dorks all cost 1, manipulate fate cost 2, baleful strix cost 2. You'll probably slow yourself down so much that they would just play through the trinisphere.

Against Omni tell we are boarding out decay and misdirection. It does slow us down but for the small price of some speed we get to virtually shut down the deck entirely. I'm testing sphere at the moment but the other option is to splash white for meddling mage which is a better answer but comes with the cost of a strained mana base. The real answer is to have wizards ban dig through time...

[movingtonewao]

Relook your sideboard (I'm not sure what you play). Postboard I'm looking at having thoughtseize, v clique, and meddling mage, all of which are better catchalls against more than just omnitell. meddling mage is not tough to cast since you can fetch a savannah/tundra (depending on your configuration) off a fetchland. Between 4 DRS + fetch and 1 noble hierarch, white mana shouldn't be a problem. I've been testing out 1 badlands and sideboard 3 slaughter game as well. Unless they have the nuts early on, one slaughter games naming show and tell can just win the game for you right there.

[hosermage]

If Delver is the issue, what do you guys think of using 3-4 Chalice of the Void as a sideboard plan? We don't play that many 1 drops (8-9 including 4 brainstorm) and if sideboarding this way I'd just swap out 4 brainstorm for 4 chalice.

I play the shardless version and unfortunately I cast shardless agent into a chalice for 0 tonight! If I keep this sideboard configuration, I will swap out shardless for chalice post sideboard to prevent this in the future.

I brought in chalice vs jeskai delver btw. It didn't really do much and I lost the match... got tempoed out.

I do like the idea of slaughter games vs certain decks. We run enough acceleration to have a decent shot at casting it early, but problem is show and tell is 3, and slaughter games is 4!

I like Yisan, I will try to make room and try it out.

[movingtonewao]

They don't always cast show and tell on turn 3, plus we have acceleration in Drs and hierarch. It is not uncommon we cast it in turn 3.

I still don't like cotv as it has zero synergy with what we are trying to do. Chalice on 1 cuts off brainstorm ponder and mana dorks. Chalice on 2 cuts off manipulate fate and baleful strix. If it's working for you please let me know otherwise.

Delver games are coin flips. Baleful strix and misdirection are your best friends while AD is your support cast. The only case I would make for cotv would be elves. That MU is a wreck pre board as are the other tribal decks (Merfolk and goblins).

[movingtonewao]

couldn't find this anywhere so I'll try my luck here since this pertains to food chain.

this situation came up when I was playing online

So i have a null rod and a food chain in play, my opponent has a SDT and counterbalance.

He fuses wear//tear. I have a misdirection in hand. Can I redirect his wear//tear?

[Jay_Gatz]

Nope, misdirection can only change spells with a single target

[Holmen]

Yeah, Ive been trying Both sphere and mage quite heavily. I believe 2 Spheres to be crucial against omni and storm and superior to mage. (I dont like having "off" duals in the main, so might be a taste-thing. Basics are great for this deck.) Ive recently cut one strix and one abrupt md for 2 cliques which seems like a good rout to smooth out the games and have a chance against combo preboard. To matchups: I believe tempo decks are a great matchup, I almost never lose to rug and the likes. Strix and abrupt does a great job of fighting through their permission and grinding them out. Decks that go wide are a problem, like mentor, pyroman and elves.

QUOTE=Thorhammer;903998]Against Omni tell we are boarding out decay and misdirection. It does slow us down but for the small price of some speed we get to virtually shut down the deck entirely. I'm testing sphere at the moment but the other option is to splash white for meddling mage which is a better answer but comes with the cost of a strained mana base. The real answer is to have wizards ban dig through time...[/QUOTE]

[movingtonewao]

Yeah this isn't a matchup we lose sleep over. Its the hyper aggressive ones like tribal and the fast combos like storm that really get us. Elves is another hairy one.

[Thorhammer]

Dig through Time is officially banned in legacy.

I think this is great news for this deck. Without as many blue combo decks in the mix, the meta will probably shift back to a more shardless BUG, Miracles, stoneblade realm. The decks that we are good against.

Here is what I think this means for Food Chain. I have been running dig as a 2 of in my deck and it is absolutely amazing. Now that it is gone we need replacements.The synergy with delve and griffin is just too good to pass up so I think Tasigur and Tombstalker are the choices to take those slots. An argument could be made for extra library manipulation such as ponder or sylvan library but I am a firm believer that Food chain is a mid range deck first and a combo deck second. Tombstalker and tasigur provide some good threats that are removal resistant (don't die to bolt or decay) and get griffin out of the yard into the exile zone where it belongs. They suffer against miracles and combo decks but they are easily slotted out.

This also means that i think Fierce Empath is the choice over genesis hydra since empath can fetch up delve creatures even when the combo is not online. Empath can also be chained away to cast the delve creatures if there are no griffins around and the graveyard is empty. Genesis hydra does have the advantage of being good against miracles (still get the trigger even if its countered) but the things it can hit outside of the combo are few and far.

Thus I also think Vela may be the way to go over Tidespout. It is easier to hard cast in a pinch and with omni tell being crippled, the need for tidespout is less. (Tidespout adds some marginal percentage points against show and tell decks). It is an instant kill as well as opposed to having to wait a turn so it saves you against the true name at 3 life problem or the topdecked bolt or 4 nimble mongeese??? It is bad though against MUD if they have platinum angel or platinum emperion but those are very corner cases.

As for the sideboard, I think the need to run Meddling mage and trinisphere is gone. Omni tell was hard to beat without those cards but i don't think that deck can survive the loss of dig. With the BUG mana base no safe from having to splash white for the stupid mage we are way more open for other good hate cards such as relic of progenitus, pithing needle, and flusterstorm.


Minor changes over all but I think the deck will be better off without the dig decks around.

[hurlman81]

So i am trying new jace in Food chain as well.




Dig through Time is officially banned in legacy.

I think this is great news for this deck. Without as many blue combo decks in the mix, the meta will probably shift back to a more shardless BUG, Miracles, stoneblade realm. The decks that we are good against.

Here is what I think this means for Food Chain. I have been running dig as a 2 of in my deck and it is absolutely amazing. Now that it is gone we need replacements.The synergy with delve and griffin is just too good to pass up so I think Tasigur and Tombstalker are the choices to take those slots. An argument could be made for extra library manipulation such as ponder or sylvan library but I am a firm believer that Food chain is a mid range deck first and a combo deck second. Tombstalker and tasigur provide some good threats that are removal resistant (don't die to bolt or decay) and get griffin out of the yard into the exile zone where it belongs. They suffer against miracles and combo decks but they are easily slotted out.

This also means that i think Fierce Empath is the choice over genesis hydra since empath can fetch up delve creatures even when the combo is not online. Empath can also be chained away to cast the delve creatures if there are no griffins around and the graveyard is empty. Genesis hydra does have the advantage of being good against miracles (still get the trigger even if its countered) but the things it can hit outside of the combo are few and far.

Thus I also think Vela may be the way to go over Tidespout. It is easier to hard cast in a pinch and with omni tell being crippled, the need for tidespout is less. (Tidespout adds some marginal percentage points against show and tell decks). It is an instant kill as well as opposed to having to wait a turn so it saves you against the true name at 3 life problem or the topdecked bolt or 4 nimble mongeese??? It is bad though against MUD if they have platinum angel or platinum emperion but those are very corner cases.

As for the sideboard, I think the need to run Meddling mage and trinisphere is gone. Omni tell was hard to beat without those cards but i don't think that deck can survive the loss of dig. With the BUG mana base no safe from having to splash white for the stupid mage we are way more open for other good hate cards such as relic of progenitus, pithing needle, and flusterstorm.


Minor changes over all but I think the deck will be better off without the dig decks around.

[movingtonewao]

Dig through Time is officially banned in legacy.

I think this is great news for this deck. Without as many blue combo decks in the mix, the meta will probably shift back to a more shardless BUG, Miracles, stoneblade realm. The decks that we are good against.

Here is what I think this means for Food Chain. I have been running dig as a 2 of in my deck and it is absolutely amazing. Now that it is gone we need replacements.The synergy with delve and griffin is just too good to pass up so I think Tasigur and Tombstalker are the choices to take those slots. An argument could be made for extra library manipulation such as ponder or sylvan library but I am a firm believer that Food chain is a mid range deck first and a combo deck second. Tombstalker and tasigur provide some good threats that are removal resistant (don't die to bolt or decay) and get griffin out of the yard into the exile zone where it belongs. They suffer against miracles and combo decks but they are easily slotted out.

This also means that i think Fierce Empath is the choice over genesis hydra since empath can fetch up delve creatures even when the combo is not online. Empath can also be chained away to cast the delve creatures if there are no griffins around and the graveyard is empty. Genesis hydra does have the advantage of being good against miracles (still get the trigger even if its countered) but the things it can hit outside of the combo are few and far.

Thus I also think Vela may be the way to go over Tidespout. It is easier to hard cast in a pinch and with omni tell being crippled, the need for tidespout is less. (Tidespout adds some marginal percentage points against show and tell decks). It is an instant kill as well as opposed to having to wait a turn so it saves you against the true name at 3 life problem or the topdecked bolt or 4 nimble mongeese??? It is bad though against MUD if they have platinum angel or platinum emperion but those are very corner cases.

As for the sideboard, I think the need to run Meddling mage and trinisphere is gone. Omni tell was hard to beat without those cards but i don't think that deck can survive the loss of dig. With the BUG mana base no safe from having to splash white for the stupid mage we are way more open for other good hate cards such as relic of progenitus, pithing needle, and flusterstorm.


Minor changes over all but I think the deck will be better off without the dig decks around.

Thank you for your input. As a player who has been firmly on food chain for awhile here's my 0.02 on what you said:

Instead of tasigur and tombstalker I think gurmag angler is still the best choice of the three, and I already run 1 alongside 2 DTT before the ban. I would sooner consider another angler, if only to trump opposing tasigurs and the 4/5 goyfs that would inevitably come scurrying back.

The fierce empath vs genesis hydra argument is not new. Both have their merits, but i think the empath plan does get better when you have more delve creatures to fetch.

Vela vs tidespout argument has not changed with the new ban list.

imo meddling mage is still a good card, omnitell will be replaced by sneak and show and meddling mage still gets the job done. feel free to try containment priest (it doesnt hit our griffins)

trinisphere is most definitely gone.

its probably a good idea to carry toxic deluge/damnation in the sideboard as creatures will start showing up again.

other cards you can consider to make up for the loss of card draw (not saying these are the correct cards, just testing considerations): new kiora, painful truths, ugin's insight, jace TMS

I dont really like small jace now that the fuel he dumps in the yard can't fuel dig, but haven't tested him so I'm not qualified to make a call on this.

wasteland decks might come back, try to fit some basics in.

[NipyN]

Dig through Time is officially banned in legacy.

I think this is great news for this deck. Without as many blue combo decks in the mix, the meta will probably shift back to a more shardless BUG, Miracles, stoneblade realm. The decks that we are good against.

Here is what I think this means for Food Chain. I have been running dig as a 2 of in my deck and it is absolutely amazing. Now that it is gone we need replacements.The synergy with delve and griffin is just too good to pass up so I think Tasigur and Tombstalker are the choices to take those slots. An argument could be made for extra library manipulation such as ponder or sylvan library but I am a firm believer that Food chain is a mid range deck first and a combo deck second. Tombstalker and tasigur provide some good threats that are removal resistant (don't die to bolt or decay) and get griffin out of the yard into the exile zone where it belongs. They suffer against miracles and combo decks but they are easily slotted out.

This also means that i think Fierce Empath is the choice over genesis hydra since empath can fetch up delve creatures even when the combo is not online. Empath can also be chained away to cast the delve creatures if there are no griffins around and the graveyard is empty. Genesis hydra does have the advantage of being good against miracles (still get the trigger even if its countered) but the things it can hit outside of the combo are few and far.

Thus I also think Vela may be the way to go over Tidespout. It is easier to hard cast in a pinch and with omni tell being crippled, the need for tidespout is less. (Tidespout adds some marginal percentage points against show and tell decks). It is an instant kill as well as opposed to having to wait a turn so it saves you against the true name at 3 life problem or the topdecked bolt or 4 nimble mongeese??? It is bad though against MUD if they have platinum angel or platinum emperion but those are very corner cases.

As for the sideboard, I think the need to run Meddling mage and trinisphere is gone. Omni tell was hard to beat without those cards but i don't think that deck can survive the loss of dig. With the BUG mana base no safe from having to splash white for the stupid mage we are way more open for other good hate cards such as relic of progenitus, pithing needle, and flusterstorm.


Minor changes over all but I think the deck will be better off without the dig decks around.

Even with Dig Through Time in the meta, I've been playing the deck with a similar build to what you described since I built it about a month and a half ago. I never ran genesis hydra in the deck because I'm not a fan of running it in the same deck as Shardless Agent. With that, I haven't run Emrakul because in testing I found that half the time it's a dead card in hand and can't be pitched to Force of Will while Vela can be. Tidespout Tyrant was kept in the sideboard because it was only great to play against MUD or Omni which weren't too big in my local meta(s).

I've had a 1-of Dig Through Time in my main deck to occasionally find me what I need and delve away some Griffins. The only other delve spell I ran was the Tombstalker, which I was always happy to see and usually grabbed it over Vela when playing Fierce Empath when I didn't have the Griffin/Chain combo.

This is my list for reference, and have been happy with the results it's been putting up.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
2 Fierce Empath
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Vela of the Night-Clad
1 Tombstalker

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Dig Through Time

4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

I'm still missing 1 Bayou and 1 Trop, so that's why there's an extra Forest in the deck. The Tundra would most likely be a Savannah instead for the Meddling Mages out of the side, but I'll probably be taking those out now that DTT is banned. I just need to work on getting the correct duals back into the deck.

Also with Dig Through Time being gone, I'll need to replace it's slot. I'm unsure of what that slot will become, but my guess is I'll make it a Misdirection or a Murderous Cut. Opinions are welcomed and encouraged as I'm still new to the deck!

[movingtonewao]

2 fierce empath feels a bit too much, I would play one and no more. Lack of dig through time means we need another way to tutor for the combo, or at least draw into more cards. murderous cut is nice and i played with it a long time ago, but nowadays the only reason I would play it is to kill opposing anglers. let me know how it goes though! what this deck lacks is people to test.

[Holmen]

This seems like a great list, been playing the same -tombstalker +angler, -vela +Emrakul, -1 agent, 1 strix + 2 clique, - dig + pulse. Minor things, this configuration seems close to perfect. I think Emrakul is superior to vela since it does not open us to Swords to Plowshares but thinking about going back to tombstalker over angler and maybe cutting cliques again since omni is gone.


Even with Dig Through Time in the meta, I've been playing the deck with a similar build to what you described since I built it about a month and a half ago. I never ran genesis hydra in the deck because I'm not a fan of running it in the same deck as Shardless Agent. With that, I haven't run Emrakul because in testing I found that half the time it's a dead card in hand and can't be pitched to Force of Will while Vela can be. Tidespout Tyrant was kept in the sideboard because it was only great to play against MUD or Omni which weren't too big in my local meta(s).

I've had a 1-of Dig Through Time in my main deck to occasionally find me what I need and delve away some Griffins. The only other delve spell I ran was the Tombstalker, which I was always happy to see and usually grabbed it over Vela when playing Fierce Empath when I didn't have the Griffin/Chain combo.

This is my list for reference, and have been happy with the results it's been putting up.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
2 Fierce Empath
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Vela of the Night-Clad
1 Tombstalker

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Dig Through Time

4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

I'm still missing 1 Bayou and 1 Trop, so that's why there's an extra Forest in the deck. The Tundra would most likely be a Savannah instead for the Meddling Mages out of the side, but I'll probably be taking those out now that DTT is banned. I just need to work on getting the correct duals back into the deck.

Also with Dig Through Time being gone, I'll need to replace it's slot. I'm unsure of what that slot will become, but my guess is I'll make it a Misdirection or a Murderous Cut. Opinions are welcomed and encouraged as I'm still new to the deck!

[Holmen]

Empath is good at getting delveguys, go empath to tasigur for a total of 4 mana is great and goes around liliana.
I would never go beneath 2 empath at the moment, it never feels clunky and has won me many games. Ive also been down the cut-road, it seems fine but not nessesary. Another removal besides abrupt is good though, I choose Pulse.


2 fierce empath feels a bit too much, I would play one and no more. Lack of dig through time means we need another way to tutor for the combo, or at least draw into more cards. murderous cut is nice and i played with it a long time ago, but nowadays the only reason I would play it is to kill opposing anglers. let me know how it goes though! what this deck lacks is people to test.

[movingtonewao]

Empath looks really silly in the early game, where we are at our most vulnerable. Our deck already has a strong mid game plan, we just need something to bridge that gap between early and mid game. Our worst match ups are actually burn and Merfolk, based on testing. I'm trying out a snapcaster Mage for now. I like the idea of maelstrom pulse as additional removal, but if you are lacking delve guys murderous cut is ok too.

[.Ix]

Jitte is really good against Burn and Merfolk. It also happens to be good against RUG and Elves.

2 Tombstalker, 1 Tasigur, and 2 Thought Scour seems pretty good. I would play Angler but i think paying B more for flying is a very good tradeoff, especially in grindy creature matches. I'm also trying 1 Empath over the second Hydra. Haven't had trouble casting the delve creatures so far, as expected.

[movingtonewao]

Don't forget we aren't a deck with stoneforge. Jitte does help against burn and merfolk but it tends to be a 2 of in the sideboard and you don't really see it all that often.

I think if anything the way forward now is to look at how the deck can shore up the bridge from the early -> mid game. Our mid game is already very strong, the bad matchups are those that get us early.

[Emrakul503]

A guy playing a list with all basics top 8 a GPT I played in today. It was very impressive.

[movingtonewao]

not optimal but definitely workable. I don't really want to be stranded with a swamp and a forest in my hand alongside ponder, brainstorm and manipulate fate though.

[Emrakul503]

He ended up losing to a similar situation. He normally just plays one of each dual, but left them at home. It was amazing to see him make it work though.

[movingtonewao]

you should point him here to share his experience.

[Thorhammer]

Definitely would be sweet to see the list.

I did a bunch of testing this weekend. Man this deck really misses the Dig through Time. The sequence of "end of turn -Dig into find whatever combo piece I'm missing, untap, win" was just so nice. The deck feels way more grindy now. I'm winning more games with an army of 3/3's than comboing. I'm playing a 1 of tombslaker and a 1 of Tasigur. I'm debating switching the Tasigur to a gurmbag angler. The whole Karakas thing is really annoying. Thoughts?

[movingtonewao]

I've made that switch to angler a long time ago, along with the other food chain player in my area (this was when DTT was still legal). However, considering how grindy we are now, switching back to Tasigur might be worth the risk since you might get a couple of activations off banana king's ability. There is absolutely no shame in winning with recurring 3/3s without the full combo, however I feel that there are other tools out there we should experiment with. Kiora, master of the depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401931) for one can act as a way to dig into your library for more creatures and strengthen your midrange plan, or get 2 activations a turn out of a DRS. Painful Truths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401981) can be reliably cast for 3 different coloured mana with our BUG manabase, and even 4 mana in the corner cases where there is a thalia because we have access to a splash colour via DRS/Noble Hierarch (if you play it). Ugin's insight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=402078) looks promising in theory, but 5 mana might end up being too expensive. All in all, there is no like-for-like replacement for Dig Through Time, so testing of potential replacement cards is definitely needed to move the deck forward. Good luck.

[Emrakul503]

I tracked him down. I hope to have a list for you guys.

I will say, I play Sneak and Show, and there are a lot more Karakas floating around post DTT ban. DnT is better, and other decks that can play it, are playing it, to beat the rightfully anticipated return of Sneak Attack.

That said, I believe both Tasigur and Guramag to have merit.

[DireLemming]

Intuition is another strong contented for the DTT slot (getting 3 Griffons with and active DRS is disgusting).

[movingtonewao]

intuition is a nombo with manipulate fate. We are not aluren and don't have cabal therapy, so its not best utilized here. intuition would have been better when DTT was around, if you dump griffins and then delve them away.

definitely both tasigur and gurmag have merit, I used to flip flop among the two a lot. I am still undecided right now, but the more pressing issue is to find a replacement for DTT.

[Thorhammer]

intuition is a nombo with manipulate fate. We are not aluren and don't have cabal therapy, so its not best utilized here. intuition would have been better when DTT was around, if you dump griffins and then delve them away.

definitely both tasigur and gurmag have merit, I used to flip flop among the two a lot. I am still undecided right now, but the more pressing issue is to find a replacement for DTT.

Do you play Ponder? I play it as a two of (even before the dig ban) and it helps find combo pieces and smooth out our draws which is helpful against nasty tempo decks that want to bottle up our mana. Another T1 play is useful too.

[Emrakul503]

I asked him about his list, and this was his response:

Heres the list that I ran at GPT at borderlands:
1x Emrakul
1x Tidespout tyrant
1x birds of paradise (should have been thoughtseize)
1x tasigur
3x Misthollow griffin
4x Deathrite shaman
4x Baleful strix
4x shardless agent
2x fierce empath
---
4x brainstorm
3x ponder
3x manipulate fate
3x force of will
4x abrupt decay
4x food chain
------
4x polluted delta
2x misty rainforest
2x verdant catacombs
5x island
2x swamp
3x forest

I feel that I only ran into 2 problems: 1) Playing island on 1, then wishing I could abrupt decay on 2. 2) In the top 8 I fetched for the wrong lands (the opponent also played really well, not trying to use it as an excuse for a loss)

[movingtonewao]

18 lands is definitely too little considering wasteland is coming back. Force of will should be upped to 4 since its a free counterspell with a griffin in hand. I don't think both emrakul and tidespout are needed, especially since there are already 2 empaths.

[Emrakul503]

To be clear, this is not a list I played or have personalized in any way. I simply copy and pasted it here for discussion.

Also, I think this list is pretty Wasteland/Back to Basics/Blood Moon proof by design.

[movingtonewao]

Well...that can be said for any decks that are running basics. Thank you for the list, and its nice to see a food chain player do well :) It would be better if the player were here to engage in discussion though.

[Emrakul503]

I tried to sway him to participate, but he did not seem to interested. I will see him again this weekend and definitely encourage him to drop in. This deck has always interested me and I am really hoping to grab some pieces post GP SEATAC.

[movingtonewao]

Why not play it at GP Seatac? If you make day 2 there's a high chance you'll be on feature match.

[Thorhammer]

2 food chain decks made day 2. Hopefully we will see some decklists.

[Esper3k]

2 food chain decks made day 2. Hopefully we will see some decklists.

Hah. I must have been the only one of the three decks to not make it! (Went 6-3, lost my win & in last round to Sneaky Show).

Shardless was all over the place, which was good for us.

[movingtonewao]

What list did you run with in the end?

[Clark Kant]

I don't think playing 4 Food Chain in the deck makes sense.

Food Chain is part of 3 card combo which is very rare, and it is much less useful outside of that combo. Seeing multiples of it, or even the the first food chain when I dont have or am unable to resolve a Misthollow/Manipulate Fate makes it a dead card.

The half combo (and even that is a two card combo) doesn't compete with the likes of Sneak and Show, Turbo Eldarazi and other powerful decks, it's too slow to be useful against anything outside of the fair decks.

The deck's strength and most of it's wins come from Misthollow Griffin beatdowns and fair cards like Decay and Deathrite, not by comboing out.

Many of my losses can be attributed to drawing dead Food Chains when I don't have Misthollow/Manipulate instead of something actually useful.

I have been doing so much better with the deck (and the deck feels much much more consistent) ever since I cut Food Chains to play 4 Natural Order and a Progenitus. The deck plays so many green creatures that Natural Order is a one card combo.

A one card combo vs. a three card combo, I much prefer the consistency that the one card combo offers.

[movingtonewao]

Even a single food chain and a single misthollow griffin can wreck havoc against any creature based strategy. We play 4 because of how strong the combo is. I'd sooner cut manipulate fates and maybe 1 griffin before cutting food chains. Having said that, there are game 2s where I might cut food chains (though not all of them). Play more and count the games where you had excess food chain vs wishing you had one.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes but that's the thing, the two card combo is only moderately useful to slowly grind out a win against creature decks, it doesn't beat many of the decks that see play in legacy. All the other two card combos in legacy (even the tier two ones like Dark Depths and Brave Sir Robin) straight up win within a turn of being cast. And assembling the three card combo happens so infrequently to be worth counting on.

The 20 or so games I've played with 4 food chains, Food Chain ends up being a dead draw that I wish was something else significantly more often than not. And unlike misthollow/fate, it can't even be pitched to FoW or MisD.

[movingtonewao]

I understand the point you are trying to make. However with all the AD running around and our lack of tutoring, I'm not sure we're seeing excess food chains that often. I admittedly haven't been playing much since the DTT ban, but I personally haven't been stuck with dead food chains as much. It tends to be a prime target for removal spells. I totally understand if you would like to go for NOpro, but then you do open yourself up to stuff like graddiggers cage and so on. Definitely see where you are coming from though.

[HNana]

I like having multiple food chains because sometimes you're gonna have to play it knowing the opp is going to fow it. When food chain is active, it's REALLY good.

Haven't played food chain since dig got banned. I was running a list with shardless agents, emrakul and tidespout. I'm looking forward to some lists soon because I'm a bit lost at the moment as to what to do with the deck.

[movingtonewao]

I think its the same old, except the foes we are aiming to beat are now slightly different. i have replaced my 2 DTT with 1 kiora and 1 painful truths, but I'm still not sold on that yet. I've been busy with life but will pick this back up again as soon as time frees up.

[Mapson]

Haven't played the deck since dig got banned and a friend of mine might be taking it to this week's open. Anybody have a good post dig list or ideas on replacements?

[movingtonewao]

try kiora master of the depths for utility or painful truths for card draw. Not in the same league as DTT but will work.

[movingtonewao]

Food chain on camera now

[movingtonewao]

looks like he did a deck tech. heres the link for anyone who is interested.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/food_chain_with_eli_kassis.html

Lots of weird choices such as 1 ofs for multiple discard spells, I was almost wondering if he had gifts ungiven.

He also plays both tasigur and angler. Gotta be pretty nasty to see both in your opening hand.

I don't like the 17 land either.

[jedi_gof]

I am after a long time on Dack Miracles contemplating a return to Food Chain.
So far I will still be on the Hydra gameplan.

Dual misdirection over 4th force due to many decays in my meta. 4th fow will be moved to SB.
Board is geared towards beating combo and tweaking a bit in certain MUs. Murderous Cut could be a split between disfure and cut and are looking to add one more relice over something in the board.
Finally, I am torn on the white splash, Medling mage out of the board is fantastic, but keep going back and forth on this and not being able to decide. For now I am not going W/sideboard, but will test some tonite to see if I get a better knowledge on Main/SB configs.

Havent played FC since DTT ban, so far Scours and ponders are in their place. Scour#2 will most like become ponder#4. Otherwise I am pretty happy with the MD.
Will post a Pic tonite, I play the deck all-german :-D


//Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Vendilion Clique

//Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
2 Misdirection
2 Thought Scour
3 Ponder
4 Food Chain

//Lands
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest

//Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Force of Will

[nevilshute]

It's funny Jedi, I'm actually also back on the FC-wagon. I'll be sleeving this deck up on Thursday. Lifted by the sight of some old friends (hello Fierce Empath) in Kassis' deck I'm back on an updated version of my 2014 build with empath/snipe/griselbrand/emrakul. Possibly (probably?) suboptimal but I've got an itch.

[jedi_gof]

Awesome Nevilshute! Look forward to comparing our results on thursday mate.
I am too contemplating the empath, partially because I have not yet tried that version as it has seemed suboptimal in my eyes... But it is tempting to big-beats people:-)

Also G. Probe makes sense over scour now that we dont delve much anymore, allowing for c.therapy over thoughtseize in the board.
So many options ;-)

[jedi_gof]

Played my below list last night at my LGS.
Opened 4-0, but lost a tight 5th round, still good for 4-1 and a 1st place after swiss and some nice store credit.
Beat lands, burn, s&t and imperial painter. Lost to Grixis delver last round. Dont have much time to go further into details atm.

Notes:
Hydra might not be as good now as during dtt. I have a feeling that empath needs to be tested for me.
Still not fan of the many slots it occupies, and will most likely miss the utility of hydra. But empath is never dead and a great roadblock. Often you have to keep hydra in hand to combo with.

Probes as cantrips worked better than expected. Allowed for therapies to pull double duties from the board. Also knowledge is king, and showed the road was clear on a few occasions to go for a tap-out, unprotected FC.

Although a bit awkward not having access to basic island at time, the opportunity to keep a moon/wasteproof manabase was huge yesterday. I might be inclined to cut a probe for an Island.



//Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Vendilion Clique

//Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
2 Misdirection
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
4 Food Chain

//Lands
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest

//Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Force of Will

[Ltj999]

Hey All,

I've always watched this deck from afar and really enjoyed it, but had been on the miracles bandwagon for quite a while. I'm seriously considering going over to this deck as all the inherent synergies in it seem really fun to play, particularly in a unique shell that can attack from multiple angles.

I proxied up Eli Kassis' list from the SCG open this weekend, with some minor changes, only 3 strix, 1 md misdirection, 1 Bird, etc. The deck felt strong against other midrange and control decks, decent against storm, and pretty rough against grixis delver (granted these were g1's as I didn't have a full SB built yet and we get some good tools for that match up post board).

What do people think about the deck list posted by Jeffrey Chen a little while back?

Creatures (18)

4 Baleful Strix
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Vendilion Clique
Lands (20)

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
Spells (22)

4 Food Chain
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
1 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Manipulate Fate
Sideboard

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Duress

I would make a few obvious changes such as take out the dimir charm, and replace the digs with ponders, try to find room for a tasigur or angler and probably run a more basic heavy list. I also notice that his land count is a bunch higher than most lists on this forum coming in at 20 vs 17-18.

thoughts?

[bulbo]

Hey there!

This is my deck

Main Deck (60)
//Creatures (18)
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Tombstalker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//Spells (22)
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Food Chain
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
//Lands (20)
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
//Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

I fell in love with food chain after trying maverick (fun deck) and nic fit (very funny)
I've found food chain the funniest between the decks I played; and also the most successfull (that's not bad..)

Usually I play only with friends (lands, elves, pox, sneak and show/omnitell) but would like to know if about you, it could be a good deck for tournament with a unknown meta.

Thanks for any advice

[Thorhammer]

Hey there!

This is my deck

Main Deck (60)
//Creatures (18)
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Tombstalker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//Spells (22)
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Food Chain
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
//Lands (20)
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
//Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

I fell in love with food chain after trying maverick (fun deck) and nic fit (very funny)
I've found food chain the funniest between the decks I played; and also the most successfull (that's not bad..)

Usually I play only with friends (lands, elves, pox, sneak and show/omnitell) but would like to know if about you, it could be a good deck for tournament with a unknown meta.

Thanks for any advice

I'd cut either tidespout or emrakul (you don't need both) and lim dul's vault for some ponders. Lim dul's vault is cute but it doesn't draw you a card and costs too much. Ponder finds lands when you need it, a removal or counter spell when you need it, and combo pieces when you need it. Plus it fuels delve easier. I have not been impressed with tombstalker myself. The flying is rarely relevant which means that gurmbag angler almost always is better. Not to mention Tasigur. 2 abrupt decay seems risky since it just kills so many things. I have also found scavenging ooze over relic to be rather effective since it does basically the same thing and has teeth. But yeah yer list looks great.

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, I've got just about everything to play Food Chain. Wanted to ask a few questions before posting my proposed list:

- It seems that everyone preferred a different win con, and I've read the merits of each. If I want to play the Fierce Empath/Delve guy(s)/lots of Ponders plan because, to me, it seems more consistent, what's the ideal kill creature? My guess would be Emrakul because the extra turn is more devastating after having smashed face with the Delve creatures. You can also cast it without a Misthollow Griffin because you'd be playing a :6:- and/or :7:-drop that could be fed to Food Chain, need be. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Is there consensus now, or is it meta-driven? If Tidespout Tyrant or Vela the Night-Clad don't resolve, you can't combo anymore - that's my big concern. Of course, they pitch to Force of Will and are easier to cast and all that ... You know all this.
- How many lands?! I've seen everything from 17-20. If I play 4 Ponders, can I get away with 18 lands?
- Is the number of copies of Food Chain sacrosanct? In a build with 8 cantrips and 4 Baleful Strix, could I play 3 F.C.s? You only really need one to stick, and it wouldn't be too difficult to find, especially with the ability to thin the deck with fetches, Empath and Manipulate Fate.
- I remember a few pages back someone mentioning that the deck's biggest weakness is letting aggressive starts steamroll it. What have people considered for this? Right now I'm running 3 maindeck discard spells and 1 sideboard Duress. Has that proven helpful? Should we also consider some spot removal like Disfigure or perhaps a creature-based buffer like, for example, Wall of Roots, Wall of Blossoms, or even Spellskite?

With all that said, here's what I'm considering. I'm open to any and all feedback.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Fierce Empath
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Food Chain

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Manipulate Fate
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

// sideboard //

1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Dread of Night
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Misdirection


Definitely open to the fourth Griffin, a 19th land, a different win con and any sideboard changes. I'm considering an Umezawa's Jitte in place of one Disfigure - I only own one, hence I can't play the 2 equipment plan. Do we like Sylvan Library or Painful Truths? The latter puts a card into our graveyard to fuel Delve, but the former gives us consistent card selection and is a two-drop nightmare for Miracles.

Thanks for your help!

[movingtonewao]

I'm very heartened to see life coming back onto this thread since i last popped by. I've been trying to get more people to play this deck and I'm happy to see that we are having discussions again.

jedi_gof, could you help me out with acquiring some of the cards in german? I like german cards but I live in Asia so its very difficult for me to obtain them and even if I can people try to rip me off.

I personally have tried both versions (hydra version and empath version) and I still think empath + delveguys is still the way to go. Hydra is nice and acts as an alternate 100/100 if your wincon gets pitched/ditched, but most of the time you aren't really doing much with it as its pretty mana hungry under fair conditions, and still dies to AD.

Let me answer theMonster to the best of my ability:

to your first question, I the fight is between tidespout, vela, and emrakul. I actually don't like emrakul all that much, because he doesn't do much unless you're winning. Yes you rightly pointed out that you could feed 6 or 7 drops to food chain and cast him, but I really don't think this situation will come up often enough to justify emrakul based on that reason. If he works for you, all power to you, but based on my testing he is the inferior choice among the 3 in an open meta. That leaves you with tidespout and vela. These have their pros and cons. Vela is easier to cast "the fair way" and vela beatdown is a very legit way to win, but tidespout can really get you out of a tight spot by bouncing problematic permanents (for e.g. platinum angel in MUD). Both of these pitch to FOW, which is always good, and is something you shouldn't be afraid to do when the situation calls for it. Trust the deck more, we can win on recurring griffins alone, we don't need the full combo. Regarding your question on getting the wincon countered, well, that's why we play black for discard spells. Be it therapy or seize or counterspell backup, it is not often you have a situation where you *have* to cast your tidespout/vela RIGHT NOW. Chances are your opponent is having a tough time dealing with your recurring griffins already, so just keep up the pressure. Of course, I've been in situations where I'm at 1 life and he has a bunch of stuff so I have to go for it either way, but that's a different story and these situations don't come up very often.

to your second question, I would say yes you could get away with 18 land with 4 ponders, but that's an uneasy "yes" the bare minimum and don't ever go any lower. Be prepared to have a tough time against decks that pressure your manabase though. I maintain the discipline of keeping my land count at 20 to ensure my % against delver doesn't go down that much. The temptation to cut land is ALWAYS there, but its important to resist.

to your third question, maintain discipline and keep 4 in. Yes you will have shitty situations where you have multiple copies that you don't need, but most of the time you will be getting one FOWed here, and abrupt decayed there, thoughtseized....etc. You can trim it postboard against certain matchups, but for G1 I like to have my full combo potential in there.

Fourth question. Spot removal: disfigure is a good choice to deal with guys like deathrite shaman, ethersworn canonist and so on. Don't bother with the walls, if tarmogoyf is a problem, play 4 baleful strix and call it a day, Scooze works too but we are usually using our mana very efficiently with none to spare. Spellskite? I don't think it will add much value here.

Your maindeck is fine, most people play around with the numbers of the business spells. I personally play 4 Abrupt Decay in the main and also a sylvan library, but thats a meta call so I can start grinding other grindy decks down and win with combo. I like that you went with 1 each of island forest and swamp, I like to err on the safe side and not get blown out by blood moon.

Fourth griffin is additional FOW and misdirection fodder, and it is not imperative to have but I like to have it so my half combo produces 12 power of fliers over 6 power of fliers.

Sylvan library for sure, I worship it like a god in this deck.

Painful truths I play as a 1-of, and its been great (I wanted something to replace dig through time as fuel, and preordered painful truths immediately when it was spoiled).

Another guy (girl) I've been testing is kiora, master of the depths. Its pretty unexpected and you might raise a few eyebrows, but wait till you see double DRS activations, or you have a food chain out and you dig 4 cards a turn to find your griffin and/or wincon, its pretty ridiculous! Don't play more than 1 though.

All the best to everyone playing this deck :)

[theMonster]

This is extremely insightful - thanks so much, @movingtonewao.

- There is a fair bit of MUD running around in my meta, so perhaps Tidespout Tyrant is the way to go. The appeal, obviously, is bouncing an opponent's board, and seeing the meta go midrange makes T.T. attractive. But how does it play versus combo decks like Storm or Sneak 'n' Show? I would think you'd want to win on the spot, so perhaps Vela the Night-Clad is better there. Do people, say, split the difference and play 1 main/1 side? I've also seen lists that run two different win cons maindeck, but I think with 2 Fierce Empaths and cantrips there are enough ways to find a win that 1 copy is sufficient.
- Maybe I can split the difference and run 19 lands. The only cuts I can justify for it are the fourth Ponder or the second Fierce Empath (though I'd feel queasy going down to 16 creatures). I still like the idea of two Delve guys, though, 'cuz I want to beat down, so I'm curious as to what you'd cut for a land. (And would it be a fetch or an Island?)
- Food Chain sure seems like a lightning rod for reactive cards, so I can see the reasoning for running 4. Against which matchups do you generally trim them? I could imagine not needing too many against combo just because there isn't a ton of time to establish it.
- I've played Disfigure in other decks I've been piloting, and that card is super efficient. I'm definitely running it in my sideboard. 7 maindeck removal spells split between Baleful Strix and Abrupt Decay seems right - my preference is 4 Strix/3 Decay, but if there's a ton of Miracles near you, I can definitely see going the other way. Interesting about Scavenging Ooze. Perhaps you're right that in the matchups where you want it, it's too cumbersome. I'm gonna try it and see if I have the same experience, though.
- Painful Truths seems awesome. I might cut a Ponder for one. I haven't played with Kiora, Master of the Depths, so I can't really render judgment, but I must admit that the old adage about four-mana planeswalkers not named Jace, the Mind Sculptor comes to mind. I can see the appeal of seeing four cards instead of three, but it's a -2 ability, not 0. When you invest :2::g::u: and whiff on a -2, that's gotta hurt. At least the graveyard chaff can fuel Delve creatures, and double Deathrite Shaman activation is cute, though. Since I don't want to run 20 lands, I should probably avoid a :4:-drop, but I'm gonna consider your sweet tech.

So I'm leaning towards these changes for now:

-1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
-2 Ponder

+1 Tidespout Tyrant
+1 Painful Truths
+1 Misty Rainforest

Again, I really appreciate the input. Let's Griffinize some folks!

EDIT: Bonus Question - how good do you feel this deck is in the current meta?

[movingtonewao]

with 2 fierce empath you really don't need more than 1 wincon. I think there are better cards to play in the sb over a 2nd wincon. I have run with 1 empath and 1 wincon and if there was any difference, well, it doesn't show.

19 land should serve you ok unless you are seeing a fair bit of wasteland (40%+) then you might wanna think about 20 land. I personally hate losing to "wasteland the key land you need, oops, you just lost!" and want to guarantee that I can play a game of magic, but thats just me. If i wanted to cut a land I wouldn't pick the island, probably the swamp or forest because we need a lot of blue for our manipulate fates / ponders / brainstorms. Against a wasteland deck it is pretty good to fetch for a basic island if you are land light. I would prefer to trim either the forest or swamp (take your pick). Some people would argue that you need forest and swamp in case someone has blood moon and you need an abrupt decay, but we do have DRS afterall.

You trim some food chain in matchups where you think 1) they will overboard against the combo 2) it will be a slow grind so you think you'll win more due to grinding than to combo and 3) they combo faster than you.
one example of 2) is DnT, you will NOT be comboing anytime soon against that deck, just rip out all your food chain (except 1 at most) and play fair. They will jam phyrexian revokers naming food chain and have many ways to disrupt your combo including thalia, flickerwisp etc. Griffins stay in they are sick against swords to plowshares.

In situation 3), we are talking about decks like storm, and this is why you should be having things like null rod and flusterstorm and discard(?) in your sideboard. I think griffin sideboards should consist of the following:
A) stuff to mess with combo decks that are faster than us (flusterstorm, discard, nullrod etc)
B) stuff to deal with our shitty matchups of extreme aggro (disfigure, toxic deluge, hell even damnation if merfolk is prevalent enough, umezawas jitte etc)
C) usual utility stuff that can be the defining card in specific matchups (pithing needle, graveyard hate cards, sylvan library/AD if you don't already play it maindeck, etc)


Disfigure is a good card and one we need in many of our even-bad matchups. From experience, we roll over to burn and merfolk pretty easily, and disfigure helps against both while being useful in almost every situation.

Painful truths is really good, I was never upset when I drew a painful truths, and it rocks to cast it t2 off a DRS, draw into a FOW, and counter whatever he was trying to do.

I would say in this deck Kiora > JTMS. I've played jace before, and i still prefer a one of kiora. it looks like it cost 4 mana, but I notice whenever I play it it only cost 2 mana, and heres why. Usually when I play it I will immediately untap a DRS and a land to +1. So, lol. I have 2 mana back! If you cast a T3 kiora off a drs AND untap the drs and a land, (and do whatever you want with the 2 mana, baleful strix/manipulate fate/whatever) the tempo swing is so ridiculous that its hard to lose to any non-explosive deck from there.

If you have an aggressive meta full of stuff like delver, merfolk, burn, then don't play this deck, you will lose many games (we are just bad against these decks)
If however you are facing grindy decks a lot (miracles is one of our best matchups), then you should play this deck.
If you are in a combo infested meta, you can tune this deck to have more discard in the main/sb.

This deck is for you if: you like to masquerade as a shardless bug deck and be the king of grinding with a combo finish. you want to play a pretty good deck that uses a 50cent mythic as its all star player. your meta is full of grindy decks and you want to be the grindiest winniest one of all.
This deck is not for you if: you have no patience. It's hard to learn to be a good pilot of it, and initially you might lose a lot with it. But gradually you will find a lot of tricks to do with the deck, and be good with it. or if your meta is full of burn and merfolk, then you should migrate somewhere else to play this deck.

[bulbo]

@movingtonewao: Thx a lot! I found a lot of great advices in your post!

About ooze I love it and it shines with drs when you need to fight against graveyard: must have in my opinion

Never used kiora or painful truth in this deck but could give them a try (truths more than kiora); or return to the mono sylvan library (I love this card)

In the meantime I've changed my deck and I took the "shardless route"

This is last version

"Shardless griffons"
/Main Deck (60)
//Creatures (18)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Fierce Empath
3 Shardless Agent
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tidespout Tyrant

//Spells (22)
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Food Chain
2 Misdirection
3 Force of Will

//Lands (20)
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

/Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Meddling Mage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Notion Thief
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Obstinate Baloth
3 Leyline of Sanctity

i play a lot vs pox and the 3 leyline and the 2 baloths are wonderful

I'm very happy with this deck, but I was thinking to cut a ponder for an enlightened tutor because should be fun have something to tutor the food chain when I need and I don't find it despite the brainstorm-ponder and other deck manipulation cards

Bye.

[movingtonewao]

With 20 land you could technically cut 2 ponders, which would allow you to up your shard less and fow count to 4 (that's also what I would do).

I think you need to understand that your deck is perfectly ok without a food chain. We are essentially a shard less bUG deck with a combo finish in this scenario, thus you don't really need the enlightened tutor. Grind them out slowly and then win out of nowhere, that's what we are good at doing.

I won't comment too much on the sb since it's meta dependent. But I won't leave home without a 4th abrupt decay, a sylvan library, and some sort of one-shot graveyard hate be it graddiggers cage, tormods crypt etc.

[bulbo]

I moved venser to MD (-1 griffon) and now i have one free space in sd.
I tried the enlightened tutor and like you wrote, it's not necessary.
I was impressed by shardless agent (would play 4 if I had them); want to cut the 3rd ponder and sylvan library is great idea. Thanks!
Until now I am happy with the 3 fow/ 2 misdirection set (even if it's possible I was only very lucky to have them when I needed them)

Yesterday I played vs my friends against omnitell (4-0) and pox (2-1)
Omnitell was very unlucky with bad hands all the time (i can't tell it was a test.. [emoji13])

More interesting were the matches vs pox: sometimes it seems he can block whatever you do, other times drs, strix and shardless cascading on abrupt let you resist whatever he does. And finally Leyline of sanctity is so good that it seems you cheat for the victory (actually i am thinking of removing the baloths from side)

The side should become something like this
//sideboard
2 flusterstorm
1 ooze
1 relic of progenitus
3 meddling mages
1 krosan grip
1 toxic deluge
1 notion thief
3 leyline of sanctity
1 golgari charm
1 (free spot - 4th fow? 4th abrupt? 2nd venser? Single vendilion?)

Anyway thanks a lot!
I'm tuning the deck to fit my play style and I've found great inputs to create a fun and (always more) winning deck.

[movingtonewao]

Glad my comments helped. I've logged a lot of games with this deck (says more about my persistence than my playskill really), so I'm willing to bounce ideas off people who actually want to take this deck forward in 2016, many before you have come and gone :frown:

2 misdirection is a meta call, the usual split of fow misdirection is 4/1. Misdirection is insane if you expect a ton of bug and/or enjoy misdirecting hymns and decays all day.

the sideboard really depends on what you are trying to beat. Before dumping cards into the sideboard I try to imagine the matchups I will face and think about what I expect to take out from the maindeck.

I will first let you know that burn and merfolk are our pretty bad matchups. I recommend that you find space for the 4th decay either in maindeck or sb, decay is just bonkers in the right matchups.

I have tried to beat burn but i think its just a bad matchup and there is no point devoting so many cards to a matchup to a single matchup and not even guarantee a win against it.

I have not played with leylines because usually I have a bunch of thoughtseizes in my sb against combo, and those are easier to cast early on.

I don't think baloths add much to what we are actually doing to be honest. I don't really criticize sideboards because I believe that everyones meta is different, but if you have trouble with a specific matchup i can recommend cards for it.

[J.Black]

Hi all,

New to the thread but I took this deck to a 44 strong tournament last weekend; just missed out on the top8 with a 4-2 record. Not too bad considering it was my first proper tournament for over 10 years!

Deck(60):

4 Misthollow Griffin
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Heirarch
3 Baleful Strix
3 Fierce Empath
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Vensr, Shaper Savant
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Bayou
2 Watery Grave

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
1 Savannah
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Cursed Totem
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vela the Night-Clad
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dread of Night

Round 1 - Won 2-0 against Death and Taxes - opponent was playing a borrowed deck and was completely unaware of the combo game 1. Had to grind out game 2 but was never really in danger.

Round 2 - Won 2-1 against Loam Depths - got squashed by Marit Lage in game one but ground out the next 2 as my opponent had no way of dealing with the Griffins.

Round 3 - Lost 2-1 against Junk Pod - Lost to a resolved Stoneforge in game 1, combo'd out in game 2, then lost a very close game 3; key moment was me fetching a pair of islands from a vet explorer trigger and walking straight into a Tsunami >< I had about 8 turns to draw into a Food Chain to win but bricked.

Round 4 - Lost 2-0 against RUG Delver - Game 1 he drew nothing but counters and I never get anything of consequence into play. Game 2 I get stuck with a Forest and Island in play, with a hand full of abrupt deacys and strixs.. don't see any land for 6-7 turns and lose to a pair of Goyfs.

Round 5 - Won 2-1 against Shardless BUG - Combo out quickly in Game 1. Game 2 I get ground out after my opponent cascades into nothing but Hymns and Visions. He concedes game 3 during turns as he was almost dead on board.

Round 6 - Won 2-0 against UWr Miracles - Combo out game 1 through multiple forces, Jace activations, and a counterbalance. Game 2 he taps out to land a Jace T4 and I have exactly the cards in hand to combo out.

Cut to Top8 was 4-1-1 I think I finished 10th overall.

My aim was just to get to know the meta and see what decks in Legacy are capable of.... I've only played Legacy properly over the past 6 or so months; started with a NicFit Pod deck and moved into Food Chain a few weeks ago. I had great fun playing the deck and got a bit of kudos from the room for bringing such a rare deck out to play.

I did feel a bit helpless in the RUG Delver game - every play I tried to make got variously Forced, dazed, pierced, or snared - and will look to improve my sideboard for that matchup in the future. Can any of the more seasoned players give me some advice here? Did I just walk into a 'hot' deck? are there ways of playing around all their counters?

The Pod match was the best and worst game all in one - I made some silly mistakes but pulled off a few tricks too - Tsunami was something I wasn't expecting to see and the next 3-4 turns spent re-building put me waaaay behind, even though a top-decked Food chain would have sealed victory.

I really want to put a couple of copies of Lim-Dul's Vault into my next iteration (probably dropping a Ponder and the Sylvan Library). I guess it's not widely used because it doesn't cantrip? The meta here in the UK seems to have slowed a little (we had 31 fair decks Vs. 13 unfair decks at the event) so maybe it can be made to work :D

Sideboard was not very well thought out in retrospect; thinking of the following for next time:

2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
3 Thoughtseize
2 Null Rod
1 Vela the Night-clad
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay

Bit more focused on dealing with fast combo!

Enough rambling - any guidance is much appreciated and looking forward to sticking with this deck and hopefully being able to give something back to the thread over coming months.

[Thorhammer]

Nice work at the tourney! Yer list looks pretty good. Baleful strix is the all star vs delver. Mana is key so fetch when you can't get stifled and play around daze. A timely abrupt decay will often give you enough time to set up. I've been playing 2 carpet of flowers out of the board to help with matchup since it singlehandedly beats daze, wasteland, and spell pierce and stifle. That being said its not a matchup we want to face since we are so slow and mana hungry.

[movingtonewao]

Round 1 - Won 2-0 against Death and Taxes - opponent was playing a borrowed deck and was completely unaware of the combo game 1. Had to grind out game 2 but was never really in danger.

Round 2 - Won 2-1 against Loam Depths - got squashed by Marit Lage in game one but ground out the next 2 as my opponent had no way of dealing with the Griffins.

Round 3 - Lost 2-1 against Junk Pod - Lost to a resolved Stoneforge in game 1, combo'd out in game 2, then lost a very close game 3; key moment was me fetching a pair of islands from a vet explorer trigger and walking straight into a Tsunami >< I had about 8 turns to draw into a Food Chain to win but bricked.

Round 4 - Lost 2-0 against RUG Delver - Game 1 he drew nothing but counters and I never get anything of consequence into play. Game 2 I get stuck with a Forest and Island in play, with a hand full of abrupt deacys and strixs.. don't see any land for 6-7 turns and lose to a pair of Goyfs.

Round 5 - Won 2-1 against Shardless BUG - Combo out quickly in Game 1. Game 2 I get ground out after my opponent cascades into nothing but Hymns and Visions. He concedes game 3 during turns as he was almost dead on board.

Round 6 - Won 2-0 against UWr Miracles - Combo out game 1 through multiple forces, Jace activations, and a counterbalance. Game 2 he taps out to land a Jace T4 and I have exactly the cards in hand to combo out.

I did feel a bit helpless in the RUG Delver game - every play I tried to make got variously Forced, dazed, pierced, or snared - and will look to improve my sideboard for that matchup in the future. Can any of the more seasoned players give me some advice here? Did I just walk into a 'hot' deck? are there ways of playing around all their counters?

The Pod match was the best and worst game all in one - I made some silly mistakes but pulled off a few tricks too - Tsunami was something I wasn't expecting to see and the next 3-4 turns spent re-building put me waaaay behind, even though a top-decked Food chain would have sealed victory.

I really want to put a couple of copies of Lim-Dul's Vault into my next iteration (probably dropping a Ponder and the Sylvan Library). I guess it's not widely used because it doesn't cantrip? The meta here in the UK seems to have slowed a little (we had 31 fair decks Vs. 13 unfair decks at the event) so maybe it can be made to work :D

Sideboard was not very well thought out in retrospect; thinking of the following for next time:

2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
3 Thoughtseize
2 Null Rod
1 Vela the Night-clad
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay

Bit more focused on dealing with fast combo!

Enough rambling - any guidance is much appreciated and looking forward to sticking with this deck and hopefully being able to give something back to the thread over coming months.

VS death and taxes, the ideal game plan is to combo G1 and grind out G2, which is what you did here. A good death and taxes player will never let you combo off in either game, so feel free to board out the combo in g2.

VS loam depths, from experience this is a walkover. Not sure how you lost a game here but you must've been very unfortunate, between clique, strix and griffin you have approximately 1234 fliers to throw at a 20/20 nontrampling marit lage.

VS junk pod, coin toss here since we are both great at the midgame. Unfortunate that you didnt get the food chain you needed.

VS RUG delver, this is all about surviving the early game. The gameplan is simple: survive early game, get to midgame, win. Abrupt Decay should be a 4 of in your maindeck if your meta is fairdeck-infested. Looking at your manabase, apart from the nonoptimal shocklands, I would suggest going up to 20 land. I maintain my disciplined approach of keeping in 20 land no matter what, because I hate to lose to the inability to play a game of magic. In the board you can consider additional help like a 1 of disfigure. once you get to 4 mana or so, they are more or less dead. baleful strix is a boss.

VS shardless BUG, we are just like them except they have value and we have combo. coin toss, but if you have superior knowledge and he doesnt know wtf you're up to, it can swing in your favour.

VS miracles, if you're a veteran food chain player, you will almost never lose this matchup. IN fact this is one of the reasons to play this deck, a superior game against miracles which is the top deck of the format. All our cards if played properly just trumps them outright.

Sideboard depends on what you are trying to beat. I don't like limduls vault because it doesn't shore up our weaknesses.

My sideboarding philosophy has always been: what do I need to shore up my deck's weakness? And in this case, its fast pressure, aggressive early games, or super fast combo. So I am certain you can find something else that will help in that regard. Disfigure, for instance, can kill a delver, a deathrite shaman, or a random lone merfolk lord. Another vendilion clique would shore up your combo matchup while giving you extra help against miracles when you clique away their terminus with miracle trigger on the stack. Think about what you NEED, not what "seems cool and I think I should use this".

I disagree with some of your creature choices and numbers (don't like venser and emrakul respectively), and I frown upon the waste of a sideboard slot for an additional wincon (vela), but I won't harp too much on that if your list works for you.

[heat_wave]

I'm gonna participate in a tourney this weekend and I suddenly got the playset of food chains needed to complete the deck, so maybe the stars aligned for me to pilot this instead of usual reanimator or delver. I've been playing food chain pretty intensively in the DTT era, as digs could get you out of tough situations while returning griffins to exile, and they didnt really hurt the deck in any way. So with the ban I guess it got a little worse, but still quite playable. I didn't play a single game since the ban though.
Actually, I need advice from those who've been playing the deck to some success recently. I'm used to the build with a pair of Genesis Hydras and a Tidespout Tyrant for redundancy in the combo (plus Tasigur, Clique and a couple Strixes for grinding). Is that route still viable? If so, what can digs be replaced with? I suppose some other form of CA like Toxic Deluge, or Painful Truths or whatever. Or should I stick to the Fierce Empath-Emrakul plan? However, I'm not really familiar with it. Maybe some sideboard suggestions? I remember Night of Souls' Betrayal being fantastic, plus the universal hate like Null Rod, Grafdigger's Cage, etc., but I might be missing something crucial. Thanks in advance folks.

[movingtonewao]

lack of DTT does hurt us, but I think it doesn't hurt us as bad as it hurt some other decks (say hello grixis).

Hydras are still a workable route, but I suggest you give the fierce empath route a spin for starters and then go back to hydras when you are more comfortable with playing this deck in a post-DTT world.

If you scroll back a few pages I mentioned some suggestions for how to get CA, or just straight up better card quality (hello sylvan library).

Sideboard suggestions always depend on your local meta. Night of Souls' Betrayal for example is fantastic if you're facing down young pyromancers and monastery mentors everywhere, but not so if 20/20 flying monsters and cheating out 7/7 lifelinkers are the strategy of choice for your meta.

[heat_wave]

Well, I played with Emrakul a little and it seems way too overkill. Empath can find Tasigur if you need a cheap beater that threatens to win the grind, or Tidespout for a win with griffins. So I sort of returned to my original list, replacing those two digs with a Sylvan Library and a Fierce Empath, and the deck is still pretty consistent. I'll try to figure out the sideboard and not to fail miserably in the tourney.

[movingtonewao]

I think your goal now is to get back into the groove and get a *feel* for the deck versus the 2016 iterations of other legacy decks. Don't worry too much about the results. Even if you go 0-X you will have gained valuable information on what the chronic problem is, and be able to adjust your list to suit that. Playing a deck like this is a learning journey, and if you overcome the initial difficulty of 'not having a pro deck list to netdeck or a sideboarding guide written by some pro tour winner', it can be really fulfilling.

I have never been a fan of emrakul, partially because ensnaring bridge has been showing up. As I mentioned some pages back, it is a choice between vela and tide spout. Vela is more hardcastable, while tide spout has greater insurance against problematic permanents like ethersworn canonist. Study your local meta, and tweak the list to work for you.

[J.Black]

VS death and taxes, the ideal game plan is to combo G1 and grind out G2, which is what you did here. A good death and taxes player will never let you combo off in either game, so feel free to board out the combo in g2.

VS loam depths, from experience this is a walkover. Not sure how you lost a game here but you must've been very unfortunate, between clique, strix and griffin you have approximately 1234 fliers to throw at a 20/20 nontrampling marit lage.
It was a T2 marit lage iirc and i couldn't get anything in the way in time :(



VS junk pod, coin toss here since we are both great at the midgame. Unfortunate that you didnt get the food chain you needed.

VS RUG delver, this is all about surviving the early game. The gameplan is simple: survive early game, get to midgame, win. Abrupt Decay should be a 4 of in your maindeck if your meta is fairdeck-infested. Looking at your manabase, apart from the nonoptimal shocklands, I would suggest going up to 20 land. I maintain my disciplined approach of keeping in 20 land no matter what, because I hate to lose to the inability to play a game of magic. In the board you can consider additional help like a 1 of disfigure. once you get to 4 mana or so, they are more or less dead. baleful strix is a boss.

VS shardless BUG, we are just like them except they have value and we have combo. coin toss, but if you have superior knowledge and he doesnt know wtf you're up to, it can swing in your favour. As a minor grumble, this was one of 2 matches where spectators wandered up during G1 and went 'oh, so this is the food chain deck' when my opponents had no idea what I was playing. Should I be calling a judge over if this happens? I'm sure it wasn't meant maliciously but if I had been on a charge for the Top8 it would have been really annoying.



VS miracles, if you're a veteran food chain player, you will almost never lose this matchup. IN fact this is one of the reasons to play this deck, a superior game against miracles which is the top deck of the format. All our cards if played properly just trumps them outright.

Sideboard depends on what you are trying to beat. I don't like limduls vault because it doesn't shore up our weaknesses.

My sideboarding philosophy has always been: what do I need to shore up my deck's weakness? And in this case, its fast pressure, aggressive early games, or super fast combo. So I am certain you can find something else that will help in that regard. Disfigure, for instance, can kill a delver, a deathrite shaman, or a random lone merfolk lord. Another vendilion clique would shore up your combo matchup while giving you extra help against miracles when you clique away their terminus with miracle trigger on the stack. Think about what you NEED, not what "seems cool and I think I should use this".

I disagree with some of your creature choices and numbers (don't like venser and emrakul respectively), and I frown upon the waste of a sideboard slot for an additional wincon (vela), but I won't harp too much on that if your list works for you.

Thanks for the help :) I can see what you mean about LD's vault and some local players have also added that it's really card disadvantage. I do like it's ability to guarantee drawing the one combo piece I need but whether that's worth potentially slowing the deck down by a turn is questionable. Perhaps swapping a ponder for a Genesis Hydra would be more efficient.

I'll slowly pick up the dual lands as and when I can... Seas in particular are hard to find atm. What would you recommend cutting for the extra land?

Regarding creatures, i will probably try running 2 Cliques main deck, dropping the Venser to the board. Is Tidespout really better than Emrakul? I know bouncing someone's board is just as good as a 15/15 annihilator 6 but it seems to me that i'm far more likely to run into an opponent who has StP or a counter in hand than one who has Ensnaring Bridge maindeck? Vela comes in from the board when I want/need to win at instant speed and don't expect to get blown out by spot removal (Elves, Storm, etc...). Maybe that's not necessary but i'm still in the process of learning the deck and the format so I like the feeling of insurance it gives me.

Thanks again for the advice and I hope to get some more feedback up after next weeks FNM.

[movingtonewao]

Oh yes of course if they get T2 Marit lage I will just slow clap to their great draw. Variance happens.

I'm not sure what I would do in that situation with the spectators. What could a judge possibly do? I'm not familiar with how this works maybe someone else can shed some light.

Try cutting a fierce empath and see what happens. I'm pretty sure the deck functions ok with 2.

If they are playing swords to plow shares, I don't see the need to win on the spot. They will be sitting sadly while you attack with Griffins. Do the half combo and smash them to death via combat damage.

It's not just ensnaring bridge you have other stuff like ethersworn canonist etc that you can just disregard.

If you are REALLY afraid of plow shares (and you honestly shouldn't be), then sandbag a brainstorm. In response to plow shares, brainstorm and bounce your own tyrant, and recast it. And go from there.

All the best for your FNM!

Side note: if anyone here likes my advice and is willing to donate a foil griffin to me in any language other than English and Spanish, I would be super grateful :)

[heat_wave]

Meh, went 1-2-1 today. Beat Zoo (comboed out G1, wiped my opponent's board of 3 Noble Hierarchs with a Night of Souls' Betrayal and brought the beats G2), lost to BG Lands (wasted and ported out of the game G1 while having all the cards for the kill in hand; died to a literal turn 1 Marit Lage G2 off of Manabond and Crop Rotation. I was a turn too slow to win that one), Eldrazi (couldn't fight a Mimic and 3 goddamn Reality Smashers with only a Food Chain and 2 Griffins without Tidespout); got a draw with 4C Loam (30 minutes G1 where I never topdecked a Food Chain despite my cantrips, instant G2 with my turn 2 Chain into turn 3 Griffin; beat my opponent down to 1 life G3 on my 5th extra turn and forgot to attack once earlier in the game, so that should have been a win).

Feelings after the tourney: I'm gonna swap 2nd Pithing Needle in sideboard for Tsabo's Web/Back to Basics to give those land strategies a hard time. Really no idea what to do with the Eldrazi beaters other than be faster than them, counter Thought-Knot Seers and forget about the grind. Other than that I liked my list, Sylvan Library was awesome whenever I played it and that Fierce Empath would have won me that game 1 against lands if only he didn't port me that extra time. I experienced having Empath, Tyrant and Tasigur all in my hand like 2 or 3 times today, so definitely not too lucky today. I think I'll try that deck once more in a weekly legacy event.

[movingtonewao]

sorry for late reply. you probably just didnt worship the variance gods hard enough :P jokes aside, your match with BG lands was unfortunate. Its actually not that often they make a quick marit lage. Porting and stuff is fancy and all, but unless they make a 20/20 they gotta count on us not getting our combo and killing them first. I haven't tried food chain much against eldrazi, but I imagine it to be like playing against another stompy variant. You probably don't care what they are doing unless its a TKS, which you most definitely don't want to see because it messes our "race aggro with combo" plan. I will bring in more discard if you have any in the board. Baleful strixes (strixi?) are also super good in this MU. Don't discount abrupt decay it hits chalice, endless one, mimics and so on. If they have the nuts draw all power to them, but we'll be there to make them miserable if they brick.

I don't think any of the matches you faced were unbeatable, with a bit more practice and fine tuning (and obviously some help from variance gods: no fierce empath, tidespout and tasigur in hand pls), you'll be doing fine.

[Bosaapje]

Hi everyone,

I want to pick up the deck this weekend but I've got no idea which list I need to take. A lot of lists are different so I don't really know what a good starting list is. Could someone help me?

Cheers

[bulbo]

This is my deck, if it can be useful to you

I went 4-1 last time I played (2-1 pox, 2-0 vs goblin, omnitell, sneak&show, 1-2 vs lands lost to two fast marit liege.. Very unlucky because usually it's a good mu)

Main Deck (60)

Creatures (19)
4 DRS
3 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Fierce Empath
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Tasigur

Spells (21)
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Food Chain
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will

Lands (20)
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
3 Meddling Mage
1 Rest In Peace
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Notion Thief
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

Notion thief slot could be whatever you want but he became my superstar when he let me draw three cards by my opponent's brainstorm (and he had to put two cards back on the grimoire). Good job! [emoji16]

Bye!

[movingtonewao]

Hi everyone,

I want to pick up the deck this weekend but I've got no idea which list I need to take. A lot of lists are different so I don't really know what a good starting list is. Could someone help me?

Cheers

Make a decision first on whether you want the shardless version or the genesis hydra version :)

[Bosaapje]

Make a decision first on whether you want the shardless version or the genesis hydra version :)


I would like to go for the Genesis Hydra version. I don't think that Food Chain the best Shardless deck is that BUG could give you so I think that dedicated BUG Food Chain is better. Why not play that list only -3 Agent and +2 Ponder, +1 Strix. Or do you need Agent to get Meddling Mage?

[movingtonewao]

for genesis hydra version go to post #552 on page 28. you dont need agent for meddling mage, you have DRS, noble hierarch and a dual land.

I think you should try the deck before making conclusions. This is not a deck you just pick up and play optimally, you will need patience to understand the intricacies and adapt your list to what you need.

[Bosaapje]

for genesis hydra version go to post #552 on page 28. you dont need agent for meddling mage, you have DRS, noble hierarch and a dual land.

I think you should try the deck before making conclusions. This is not a deck you just pick up and play optimally, you will need patience to understand the intricacies and adapt your list to what you need.

Thanks, I'll read that post.

I understand that it's not a deck that you just pick up and play optimally. I've never thought that. I just want a list so that I can start playing it. That said, is there something wrong with asking stuff before I know all the intricacies?

[bulbo]

Shardless agent is not here (only) to play meddling mage, but because is
1. Card advantage (sometimes better, sometimes worst)
2. He is another, perfect, target for food chain to start combo
3. He can do some damage
4. You can play meddling mage [emoji16]

I tried the two versions (shardless one and genesis hydra one), and I found the first the most competitive.
Hydra was strong when I was already winning; shardless one version let me recover some matches that I was losing.
This was the difference for me
Anyway with both I had great fun

Find your way and have fun
Bye.

[movingtonewao]

Thanks, I'll read that post.

I understand that it's not a deck that you just pick up and play optimally. I've never thought that. I just want a list so that I can start playing it. That said, is there something wrong with asking stuff before I know all the intricacies?

Maybe I misunderstood you because it seemed that you suggested -3 shardless and +2 ponder and +1 strix just by theorycrafting.

I agree with Bulbo, the shardless version just plays better in today's meta. I was playing Genesis hydra during DTT era but not anymore. However it's still good to try both because they each have strengths and weaknesses. I have lots of abrupt decay in my meta so Genesis is less appealing. try it for yourself and see how you feel about it.

[JackaBo]

Hi everyone!

I'm playing the Eli Kassis Food Chain deck on Cockatrice and in paper in Stockholm and I enjoy the deck very much. My SB differs a bit from his SB and I run 2 Angler MD instead of Angler + Taisigur.

I run this list:

Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Misthollow griffin
2 Fierce Empath
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Emrakul
1 Vendilion Clique

Business
4 Food chain

Protection
4 FOW
4 Hand-disrutions spells (on of each)
3 Abrupt decay

Search
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Manipulate fate

Lands
4 Polluted delta
2 Misty rain forests
2 Verdant catacombs
3 Underground sea
2 Tropical island
1 Bayou
3 Basics (one of each)

Sideboard:
2 Null rod
2 Carpet of flowers
2 Grafdiggers cage
3 card vs combo
3 cards vs aggro
1 Pithing needle
1 Surgical extraction
1 Drift of phanstasms

The deck has been fairly competive for me, eventhough I feel i still have a lot to learn.
I really feel like Empath is the way to go, since it's never a dead card. Empath into Angler into delving your griffin in the GY is so much value.
I also want to advocate the hand-disruption package. An opening hand with one of these always feels safe. Not only can you take an important card you also get so see what you're facing. And makes it easy for you to know if you need to play around daze or not. Its also nice in the midgame to clear the way before playing food chain and going off.

I really don't see why you must play shardless agent in this deck.The deck is so full of value plays already and when I have tested Shardless agent I always felt that the cards i wanted most (Food chain for example) ended up on bottom of my library.

The sideboard is a bit of trial and error right now. Carpet of flowers and Null rod have been huge. I like carpet so much that I've actually tested replacing one Angler with Griselbrand on Cockatrice. The reasoning is this: Sometimes you got foodchain but no griffin. With just a few creatures on the board it's pretty easy to ramp into Griselbrand and then draw seven cards often resulting in that you find your griffin to combo off. Now, with Carpet of flower vs a blue deck it's not that hard to cast Griselbrand even without Food chain.

So I've played two times at our weekly Legacy league so far and I thought I'd write down my experience and SB-choices.

First time with the deck in paper.

G1 I face off against a guy I kinda know, and I know he's on reanimator. I'm a bit nervous since it's the first time I'm playing this deck in paper and I know he's a good player.
First game he reanimates on turn two and my FOW can't save me.
Second game I SB in surgical extaction and grafiggers cage. I keep a hand with cage and feel pretty good. I'm on the play so I figure I'm best off getting the cage in play as fast as possible.
During turn 2 he decays my grafdiggers cageat EOT and proceedes to animate griselbrand. I feel i could have mulled for better hands eventhouhg G2 felt ok. I also consider having one removal in SB that kills big dudes, like Diabolic Edict, maybe?

G2 I face off vs show n tell. G1 i have no answear to show and tell and dies to the spaghetti monster. G2 I've sideboarded in more counters and hand disruption. I keep a hand with FOW and Kozilek. I take away some cantrips with Kozilek and tries to build up some pressure while sitting on my FOW. Then i draw thoughtseize. So I know he's got a misdirection which will nullify my FOW. I have a spare land in hand so I decide to go for it. He misdirects thoughtseize to me and I happily discards my land knowing he just lost both counter-magic and a cantrip. Next turn he proceeds to show and tell, I FOW and he FOW back. Later during the day I heard that he had been talking about his nut-draw during our game so I'm not too sad going 0-2 vs him. Also in this match up it would be cool to have a SB answer for opposing emrakul.

G3 I play vs storm. Accidentally I keep a hand with 3 discard spells and wins with DRS and a griffin. I board in loads of stuff and surfs through G2 with ease. Storm feels easy with this deck.

G4 I play vs Goblins. Both games I end up drawing my combo pretty quickly, holding the goblins back with Strixes and Abrupt decays. I SB in my two sweepers and out with duress and clique. Doesn't necessarily feels like an easy match up but this day it was.
Speaking of Duress I learned the lesson to always write down what you see with your discard spells. I played duress in G1 and it was utterly worthless, so I shrugged and didn't bother writing down all the names of his little red creatures. Next turn i draw into a cabal therapy. And even though I saw his hand just a minute ago I couldn't remember a single card. Luckily I could shuffle it away with brainstorm.

So 2-2 in my first test of the deck.

Second time in paper. This time I have diabolic edict and Submerge in SB incase I meet more people who cheats big guys into play.

G1 I meet Lands. I've been fearing this macth-up even though this deck is good against lands. In G1 he completes the stage+depth combo and passes the turn, just as I'm about to go off. I combo out and he responds with making Marit Lage. I take and extra turn and he has to sacrifice all permanents when Emrakul attacks. G2 I SB in surgical, needle and drift taking out hand disrution (since i was gonna be on the play). I draw an early surgical and then my submerge. When he goes off I extact all his dark depths and submerges Marit. He concedes. I'm glad I didnt see any punishing fire during our two games.

G2 I meet Dark Maverick, with a dark depth twist. G1 I loose to his overwhelming swarm of creautures. G2 i throw in my anti-creature package and null rod, taking out FOW and duress. I assemble the half-combo, being able to fly over his guys and fog his batterskull for the win. Both games were very grindy so we only got to play 2 games.

G3 I played against BUG delver running TNN. G1 i Combo off pretty fast. G2 and G3 I die to constant beating of TNN and well-timed FOW:s on food chain. So trimming the SB vs big hitters rather than sweeper effects has it's drawbacks.

G4 I played against UW Stoneblade. The guy was running late and gave me G1 cause his ex had called and wouldnt take "I'm busy" for an answer :). G2 I beat him with griffins in a similar fashion as vs the maverick guy. We didn't SB for G2 since we didn't play G1.

So 2-1-1 with the deck at my second mini-tournament.

Conclusion with the deck and SB so far. I like the deck in it's current configuration. I feel that there is only 2 slots that MAYBE could be changed. One being the second Angler and the second being on of the discard spells. If I would only change one I think I would add another fetchland though. 17 lands is usually fine but sometimes Ihave to rely a bit too much on ponders to find lands and then the ponders aren't really doing what they're supposed to do. I also do like Sylvan library but I feel that I have enough card selection with 4 BS and 4 ponder and that Sylvan library obly really shines in really grindy games - so maybe in the sideboard? On the other hand I dont see myself sideboarding in sylvan library over more interactive cards.
About the SB I feel like golgari charm is my main chice vs weeny creatures as well as TNN and Diabolic edict is my go to vs decks that run few but big threats. The third spot is either submerge, engineered plague, another decay, disfigure or dread of night (casue I'm afraid of Death and taxes - and mentors). The drift of phantasms is my Sideboard options vs slower combodecks with not much countermagic, such as 12-post - where I just wanna go off ASAP. It fins me a food chain or if i already got food chain it finds me fierce empath.

I will keep posting short game reviews as I keep playing this deck.

Feedback, critisism and help are all wellcome!

Cheers
Robin

[movingtonewao]

Reanimator:
hard luck that he had the nuts with t2 reanimation and AD for your cage in g2. Don’t read too much into this, our usual t1 play of DRS is enough to give them pause.
Show and tell:
I play either meddling mage or slaughter games in my sb depending on my mood. My plan is to lose g1 and beat them on g2 and g3. If you have vendilion clique, use it in response to show and tell to snipe their fatty.
Storm:
you are right. Unlike other force of will decks, we run force of wills AND discard. They will definitely be made to work hard for their wins barring insane variance.
Goblins:
It ends up being a race, try to have a t1 drs ready for their t1 lackey and decay their vial. When they have to play fair they are a bad deck.
Lands:
this matchup is simple. No punishing fire = they usually lose we have too many fliers to throw at marit lage until we win.
Dark maverick:
I have played this matchup before. The games play out weird, we end up playing a game of attrition and it appears that we are losing that game of attrition, but the pressure is on them to win quick because we have the combo. I tend to combo off when my life is in single digits and theirs are at 26. Use your abrupt decays wisely, they are extremely valuable in this MU. Knowing what to kill with it and when is a very important skill.
Stoneblade:
They are a grindy midrange but we are the king of midrange, outgrind them in usual fashion and win.
The most important thing to do is to know your role in each matchup. Can you win a grinding war? Do they combo faster? The only way to answer this is to play more. FC appears like a combo deck, but it is the king of grindy decks. Those who play the deck enough will know what I’m talking about, there is just so much value that its hard for a midrange to outmidrange you consistently.

[Thorhammer]

Took GoGo-Gadget-Griffins to Card Kingdom's Legacy preservation Series 1k over the weekend. Went 5-2 for a 13th place finish. Close yet no cigar but the tournament was fun and I had a good run considering I started out 1-2.

List:
4 Misthollow Griffin
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Fierce Empath
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur
1 Vela the Night Clad

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Force of Will
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ashiok Nightmare Weaver
2 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze

I like Vela over Emrakul for the longevity and instant speed kill and use you can get outside the combo and I have definitely attacked with an unblockable team cuz of intimidate. I moved Sylvan Libray to the main last minute since I realized I was boarding it in for almost every matchup except a few combo decks (I keep it in against storm mostly cuz there is nothing better to draw and you might as well try to get to more disruption.) Ashiok is for miracles mostly but can come in against any deck that doesn't put the pressure on. Carpet is for delver variants.

Round 1: Eldrazi Menace: L 1-2
You can probably imagine how his few opening turns played out. Turn 1 land, Turn 2 dump hand. Didn't help that I mulled to 6 every game. Bleh. I thought I would do ok but my turn 1 Thoughtseize revealed 2 Phyrexian Revokers maindeck! I cast manipulate fate and he calls a judge over away from the table and I hear him mention food chain and slump in my chair when he comes back and names food chain with his revoker. So much for him not knowing what's up. Game 2 he doesn't get any land on the mulligan and I combo him out. Game 3 was super grindy and I thought I had him when I had an unequipped jitte with 2 counters, a griffin, and a deathrite to his reality smasher. He attacked and I blocked and killed it with the jitte with the plan of exiling griffin with deathrite. He top decked warping wail (Hate that card) for the deathrite. We play draw go for a while but he has sea gate wreckage to win that war and I die to a world breaker without finding the last combo piece.

Round 2: Hypergenesis: W 2-0
This was against my good friend which was just a bummer that we had to go against each other. I beat him in two quick games with good pressure and at one point I had 3 force of wills in my hand. Hypergenesis is fun but I think there is just too much counter/discard from the BUG decks to make as good as it used to be.

Round 3: Miracles: L 0-2
Shawn Yu is a good miracles player and this time was no exception. Game one I got him to 2 which I think is the life total every miracles player is at when they win. He beat me down with a snapcaster mage. The bummer is I didn't see Monastery Mentor game 1 so I didn't bring in Engineered Plague or Dread of Night thinking he's just on entreat. So Game two I got hit hard by two Mentor's. I decayed one but the second one got there. I brought in Ashiok but didn't get a chance to see him in action but I think it would have been a game changer if he showed up.

Round 4: Junk Depths W 2-1
I cruise to an easy combo win game 1 and probably got way to cocky/comfortable after that. I walked cantrips into chalice of the void in BOTH of the next two games. Derp. Game three I was hard pressed as I forced a bob, and decayed two knight of the reliquary and was facing down a liliana with no pressure. I played a griffin, praying to find a delve spell since I had only one card in my hand. He must have been afraid of food chain though since he didn't make me sac the griffin and +1ed lili instead. My last card was a useless ponder (chalice) I then was able to attack lili to 2 and topdecked a baleful strix to protect it. Woot! I then got Scavenging ooze online and beat him down. Definitely didn't deserve this round.

Round 5: Enchantress W 2-1
Game one I comboed off easily since enchantress doesn't provide pressure and their pillow fort doesn't help them. I was pleased too cuz I cast empath during the combo and he just scooped which was good cuz that meant he didn't know about Vela. Vela get's around solitary confinement and Elephant Grass. Huzza. Game 2 I stall out even though I have a sizeable airforce cuz I cant find a food chain and he is sitting in his fort. He proceeds to draw 6 cards a turn but can't find his Emrakul. He has 4 cards in his library when he does. I don't scoop since he's low on life and I have a deathrite and a lot of extra lands but he shows me a Karakas.
Game 3 I decay a wild growth which sets him back on mana and I assemble combo on turn 5.

Round 6: RUG Delver W 2-0
The match that I am the most proud of since I played around all his tricks. Fetched basics. Cracked fetches on his upkeep to minimize stifle shenanigans. I sided in carpet flowers but didn't need it since he apparently boarded out all his wastelands which I think was a mistake. I also sided out Vela. They can't kill a food chain and one griffin is tough for them to beat. 2 Griffin's is almost impossible and 3 is unwinnable for them. Baleful strix was once again the all star since it ate dismember both games. Yes I will pay two mana to draw a card and make you discard a removal spell and pay 4 life.

Round 7: Opponent dropped

Very happy with the deck and I don't think I would change anything. I boarded in every sideboard card and felt the numbers were spot on all day. Baleful strix is soooo good and I would never go below 4. The deck is super fun to play and has got game to rumble in a large tournament. Ugh I wish I could beat miracles but that deck is just too good.

[JackaBo]

So another wednesday another day of magic.

Played 4 rounds of swiss with the list above and the following sideboard
2 Grafidggers cage
1 Null rod
2 Spell pierce (these should be flusterstorm when money allows)
1 Duress
1 Engineered plague
1 Dread of night
1 Golgari charm
1 Diabolic edict
1 Submerge
1 Pithing needle
1 Surgical extraction
1 Carpet of flowers

I also ran 3 FOW and 1 Misdirect MD instead of 4 FOW.

I have a general sideboarding strategy of sideboarding out Strix vs non-creature decks, FOW against fair creature decks and Abrupt decay against deck who cheats big monsters into play.

2-0 Burning reanimator
First game i keep a hand with misdirect, a griffin, a DRS and a IoK. Felt like a very safe hand. My opponent mulliganed to 5 so I suspected he was on to something tricky.
He starts with thoughtseize and given that he has so few cards in his hand i decide to misdirect it to him. Turns out he's on BR reanimator, the one who runs rituals and burning wish. He never recovers with that 3 card hand he kept and I go off with the combo.
Sideboard
-3 abrupt decay
-1 strix
+2 grafdiggers cage
+1 surgical extraction
+1 diabolic edict.
I draw 2 one land hands with not much interactions so we both end up at 5 cards. We both keep non land hands but he has a unmask that he can cast for free and i keep a misdirect + blue card + a grafdiggers cage if I would draw a land. So I misdirects the unmask to him once again ad proceeds to draw a land from the top (i scryed the top card to bottom). When in with DRS and Fow backup a bit later. Felt very good, but of course I was a bit lucky.

2-0 Dark maverick
Next game I play vs Dark maverick again. Game I beat him to death with griffins off a manipulate fate pretty quick. The StP are dead in his hand and for some reason he doesnt play the scryb ranger that he had in his opening hand. I board SB:
- 1 Clique
- 1 Duress
- 1Misdirect
- 1 FOW
- 1 Cabal therapy
+ Null rod
+ Dread of night,
+ Edict
+ Submerge. The match becomes stale with DRS on both sides. Eventually i start bringing in griffins and the lack of flyer defense in that deck is evident when STP is a dead card. Fun thing is i sat with Dread of night all game long but never saw neither MoR or Thalia g2. Submerge killed a germ-token. Game felt really good.

1-2 Merfolk
Game 1 i start with DRS into a blind cabal therapy turn 2. He lets it resolv and i name TNN which he has two of. Even with hat lucky therapy he runs me over with fish and since I cannot block and im dead in a few turns. He hasn't seen much of my deck except DRS and an Angler which is always nice.
SN
-4 FOW
-Misdirect
-Duress
+ Edict
+ Engineered plague
+ Gogalri charm
+ Carpet of flowers
+ Drift of phantasms (the two latter, because i need to assemble the combo quickly or die)
Game 2 I drew a hand with Food chain, Manipulate fate and Fierce empath! Even thought I combo out as fast as i could without playing too risky it was close. He had creatures to kill me despite the annihilator trigger but fortunately emmy + griffin and clique killed him on the spot. G3 I get locked with a chalice and even if I sneak a brainstorm by, playing it in respons to something which made him miss his trigger :) , I couldn't find anything to hold back the army of fish. Merfolk is truely a tough matchup for anyone playing blue. Do you guys have any secret tech vs fish?

1-2 Infect
G1 he kills me pretty fast with blighted agents and blinkmoth nexus.
SB
Versus infect I didn't wanna SB out either FOW, decay or Strix so I decided to SB out my whole combo plan given that Infect probably is faster then Food chain and that "half-combo" don't save you from Blighted agent. SO I basically boarded in both my anti-combo package and my anti creature package.
- 4 Food chain
- 3 Manipulate fate
- 1 Emrakul
- 1 Fierce empath
+ 1 Duress
+ 2 Spell pierce
+ 1 Golgari charm
+ 1 Engineered plague
+ 1 Pithing needle
+ 1 Edict
+ 1 Submerge
+ 1 Carpet of flowers
Game 2 went great with 2 discard spells, strix and goglari charm in hand. I withered him down with DRS and dealt with his threats - like a real control deck! G3 I keps a questionable hand, a bit too many lands but a BS to shuffle them away. Unfortunaly I dont draw anything useful with BS and he kills me with an exalted blighted agent over five turns. This macthup seems hard i think, how do you guys deal with it?

You are totally right, moving, when you say we are King of grindy midrange - we are! But I also think we're good at taking the role given to us. We can play a decent beatdown vs control, we can play decent control vs combo. And there's always the looming threat of that a strix sudenly evolves to a spagettimonster. I love this deck.

It's interesting to see that there such diversity with the win-conditions. In my games emrakul is almost always lights out. 15 flying power combined with the anihiation usually does the job. That it cannot be countered, nor plowed is important too. When you say that you win in instant speed, Thorhammer, how do you mean? Exiling and replaying griffins is still in sorcery speed and a removal spell on Vela with griffin on the stack interupts your combo. Vela and Tidsepout tyrant are possible to play without Food chain and griffins but they don't do much by themselves. Emrakul is almost impossible to hardcast but with Food chain he can be cast off anglers and Empaths even if you lack the griffins. The only matchup where Emrakul is bad is versus ensnaring bridge, but that's what decay and fow are for, right? But I'm surely interested to hear the reasoning behind the choice of win-con.

Feel free to commment on the sideboard, sideboarding strategy and list in general. I'm happy to learn more about this amazing deck.

[movingtonewao]

@Thorhammer

loss to eldrazi menace:
revokers are just brutal to play against, and for some reason the surprise factor didn't work on him so props to him on that. I don't think we are poor against this deck, its just a matter of who gets there first, one of the more brainless matchups to put it crudely.

loss to miracles:
tbv(f)h, miracles is one of the reasons we play this deck! (no offense or anything here I meant to be encouraging), a few pointers which may help you:
- sandbag manipulate fate if you have griffins on the board, it works super well with terminus. Oops! I just got back my griffins thank you sir.
- no ashiok pls, if they have top you just gave them a super ponder every turn
- do not board out baleful strix, its great because it puts them on a clock, and if they wanna waste a plow/terminus/v clique to deal with it i say go ahead. Does your jtms wanna bounce him? Thank you very much sir
- decay stays in for sure, you will be mopping up counterbalance all day and they only win if you have no pressure and they outjace you, or if they have mentor and you don't have an answer
- try to keep your side of the board to 2 creatures, don't over commit (unless they are value creatures like gogogadgetgriffin and baleful strix). DRS goes an awesome long way.
- practice the matchup. this is a DTB for a reason, but in the hands of a good pilot, food chain almost never loses. We go toe to toe with them for everything, and they can't get CA over us unless they keep our board clean and jace us out (which honestly, shouldn't be happening) or lucksack and land mentor when we have zero answers

win against rug delver:
weaksauce opponent boarded out all his wastelands? Geez, wasteland is the reason this is a tough matchup, if they want to give you a free win accept it graciously.

win against junk depths:
you may not have deserved the round but it just goes to show how much inherent power this pile of cards has. I am not afraid of lili at all. with so much value in the deck trying to attack our hand will make them lose CA in the long run, making us sac creatures is bad too (obviously). Also, so many people are just afraid of food chain. It is a great distraction it doesn't matter if you have it in hand or not, it makes them respect the food chain so they have to sandbag a force of will or something (even if you don't have it).

overall notes: baleful strix glues this deck together. Its good against planeswalkers, it is card advantage, it peskily stings for a damage a turn or trades with a gurmag angler or whatever, and when the opponent has had enough, it eats a swords to plowshares / abrupt decay / terminus. bow down to this lord and saviour. The only time he goes out is against decks like storm.

@JackaBo

vs dark maverick:
its in games like this where you show other midrange decks who is the true king of midrange. Your swords are now useless. Oh hi my creatures come back. Oh hi I'm threatening a combo and you have to respect that too. Oh and your swords to plowshares are almost useless. We are a frustrating matchup for them for sure.

vs merfolk:
easily one of the worst matchups for us. I have only beaten merfolk ONCE in my entire time playing this deck, and that was because of some neat plays (he phantasmal images with a lord in play, i abrupt decay the lord so he is forced to copy my DRS, i still remember that play haha). Basically, they are fast and they have true name nemesis. Nothing we have deals with true name nemesis (maindeck at least). Islandwalk is just the nail in the coffin. If you have a consistent way to beat merfolk, I would like to know as well. I've tried them all, engineered plague / damnation / toxic deluge in the sb etc....but then I'll be reducing my percentages against other decks just to shore up this uncommon matchup. which i felt wasn't worth it. Every deck has its kryptonite and merfolk is our kryptonite. If you can, try not to have an island in play for as long as possible (if you have a DRS for example), it might get you there. I've never done it so, lol.

vs infect:
you did the right thing, but sometimes they just win (because of the explosive nature of infect). You need flusterstorm, and as usual, AD their pieces on your own turn. Once you assemble a flying defensive line and our CA engine kicks in, they will start to lose a stranglehold on the game.

People call us food chain combo, but like i said earlier we are the king of grindy decks. Name me another grindy deck that we cant outgrind. Some people said 'lands', but we can chump their 20/20 all day long between baleful strix, v clique, misthollow. Punishing fire? gogogadgetgriffin is a 3/3 that conveniently dodges that. Eat a chumped griffin with a DRS and rinse and repeat until you combo and win.

Choice of wincon depends on meta really, and what you feel comfortable with. The situations where one shines over the other are very conditional, and most of the time (like say 95% of the time) when you have food chain + griffin + whatever wincon you have, the "whatever wincon you have" doesn't matter, you just win. Don't sweat too much over it really, if you like spaghetti then please dig in, if you like bouncing guys, please go ahead too. I mean, which other deck has all these different wincons that give you so much fun? So go out there and have fun while other decks are winning in more boring ways.

One more thing about the deck is people think they know us, but they don't know how to play against us. You won't believe the number of times I've benefitted from suboptimal play on my opponents part. The difficulty is keeping a straight face as they do so.

[JackaBo]

@Thorhammer
@JackaBo

vs dark maverick:
its in games like this where you show other midrange decks who is the true king of midrange. Your swords are now useless. Oh hi my creatures come back. Oh hi I'm threatening a combo and you have to respect that too. Oh and your swords to plowshares are almost useless. We are a frustrating matchup for them for sure.

vs merfolk:
easily one of the worst matchups for us. I have only beaten merfolk ONCE in my entire time playing this deck, and that was because of some neat plays (he phantasmal images with a lord in play, i abrupt decay the lord so he is forced to copy my DRS, i still remember that play haha). Basically, they are fast and they have true name nemesis. Nothing we have deals with true name nemesis (maindeck at least). Islandwalk is just the nail in the coffin. If you have a consistent way to beat merfolk, I would like to know as well. I've tried them all, engineered plague / damnation / toxic deluge in the sb etc....but then I'll be reducing my percentages against other decks just to shore up this uncommon matchup. which i felt wasn't worth it. Every deck has its kryptonite and merfolk is our kryptonite. If you can, try not to have an island in play for as long as possible (if you have a DRS for example), it might get you there. I've never done it so, lol.

vs infect:
you did the right thing, but sometimes they just win (because of the explosive nature of infect). You need flusterstorm, and as usual, AD their pieces on your own turn. Once you assemble a flying defensive line and our CA engine kicks in, they will start to lose a stranglehold on the game.

People call us food chain combo, but like i said earlier we are the king of grindy decks. Name me another grindy deck that we cant outgrind. Some people said 'lands', but we can chump their 20/20 all day long between baleful strix, v clique, misthollow. Punishing fire? gogogadgetgriffin is a 3/3 that conveniently dodges that. Eat a chumped griffin with a DRS and rinse and repeat until you combo and win.

Choice of wincon depends on meta really, and what you feel comfortable with. The situations where one shines over the other are very conditional, and most of the time (like say 95% of the time) when you have food chain + griffin + whatever wincon you have, the "whatever wincon you have" doesn't matter, you just win. Don't sweat too much over it really, if you like spaghetti then please dig in, if you like bouncing guys, please go ahead too. I mean, which other deck has all these different wincons that give you so much fun? So go out there and have fun while other decks are winning in more boring ways.

One more thing about the deck is people think they know us, but they don't know how to play against us. You won't believe the number of times I've benefitted from suboptimal play on my opponents part. The difficulty is keeping a straight face as they do so.

Yeah the maverick guy "overextended" and boarded in 4 Krosan Grip, and since I never played my Dread of Night and never drew a Food chain they sat dead in his hand alongside the StP all game long.

Good to hear you think I did the right thing vs infect. Yeah I think I played as good as I could as well: taking the infect damage then abrupting at end of turn so they don't get double benefit from Vines. But yeah, it's a hard deck to fight in the same way our deck is hard to fight. You need counters/disruption AND removals AND blockers and the board.
I guess I can settle with fish being the kryptonite. That's why drift of phantasms feels like it earns a SB slot: Versus some decks all that can save you is a fast full combo.
About the suboptimal play against us that occured as well. The reanimator guys thoughtseized me during one of the game and saw both food chain and emrakul. He chose emrakul :D

[movingtonewao]

I'm very happy whenever my opponents sideboard 4 krosan grip, it just means I can play the grindy game and they will sit sadly with their krosan grips in hand.

I'll take my chances against infect, they can't have the nuts every single time. We are definitely playing defensive since they have more explosive potential, but when they run out of steam and we start gaining CA, just play safe and not greedy and you can close it out. Feel free to aggressively chump block their creatures, it forces them to use their pump spells just to save their creatures, which means we are not taking poison counters, which is always good. Abrupt decay is the card you should be worshipping in this matchup.

I'm lucky that I don't meet fish very often, but if I do, well, at least the pain won't get prolonged since they tend to win fast, and I get to take a break between rounds.

Suboptimal plays I have seen take place (this is not an exhaustive list):
pithing needle on food chain - it doesn't work but just let them resolve it and combo off as usual
not countering manipulate fate - such a sick card
overboarding into multiple enchantment hate - we can just not play food chain until they get frustrated and tapout, then combo off
swords to plowshares on griffin - because people actually forget we can cast it from exile
aggressive force of will on food chain - sometimes i'm stranded with mulitples in hand, so if you are willing to trade 2 of your cards for a dead card in my hand, I'm really happy

[Holmen]

I've played this deck a long time, you can find my lists online by searching my name.

The easiest final of my life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T24Hcr-iP3c
:)

I've actually NEVER lost to merfolk. Abrupt + Engineered Plague have always been enough for me postboard, as I use abrupt on the lords and Engineered finish the TNN.

I think another Stockholm player was questioning Shardless Agent – I don't think that is a discussion if you have enough experience with the deck. The deck IS worse without agent in my opinion. The agent is the glue which binds the plans together. It improves our midgame, makes our draws less clunky and is supported by the +4 basic land strategy. If you get sad by flipping a Food Chain to the bottom, you don't have the right mindset for the deck yet :) I combo off 1 in 10 games, the rest we win by opponent badly sideboarding in revokers, canonists, and other cards that don't do anything. Against Dnt for example, I'm more than happy to trade resources for +10 turns, and then start playing one griffin a turn, slowly grinding them out.

I don't support discard maindeck, we NEED to interact with permanents or find them with cantrips. (I run 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder) I don't want to play cards that make our lategame worse, we need to be more focused than that. Our cards must have full value in all stages of the game, since we plan to be relevant that whole time.

Lately my board plan has been very resource-focused, disfigures, flusterstorms, surgical, pithing needles, thosughtseizes, etc. Against the fast decks I board all out the fluff (Shardless etc) and bring in streamlined cards, taking a control rout. This has improved my infect, storm, sneak and show matchup a lot.

Just some thoughts!

[Monglian]

I've played this deck a long time, you can find my lists online by searching my name.

The easiest final of my life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T24Hcr-iP3c
:)

I've actually NEVER lost to merfolk. Abrupt + Engineered Plague have always been enough for me postboard, as I use abrupt on the lords and Engineered finish the TNN.

I think another Stockholm player was questioning Shardless Agent – I don't think that is a discussion if you have enough experience with the deck. The deck IS worse without agent in my opinion. The agent is the glue which binds the plans together. It improves our midgame, makes our draws less clunky and is supported by the +4 basic land strategy. If you get sad by flipping a Food Chain to the bottom, you don't have the right mindset for the deck yet :) I combo off 1 in 10 games, the rest we win by opponent badly sideboarding in revokers, canonists, and other cards that don't do anything. Against Dnt for example, I'm more than happy to trade resources for +10 turns, and then start playing one griffin a turn, slowly grinding them out.

I don't support discard maindeck, we NEED to interact with permanents or find them with cantrips. (I run 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder) I don't want to play cards that make our lategame worse, we need to be more focused than that. Our cards must have full value in all stages of the game, since we plan to be relevant that whole time.

Lately my board plan has been very resource-focused, disfigures, flusterstorms, surgical, pithing needles, thosughtseizes, etc. Against the fast decks I board all out the fluff (Shardless etc) and bring in streamlined cards, taking a control rout. This has improved my infect, storm, sneak and show matchup a lot.

Just some thoughts!

Hey guys, been lurking this food chain forum for a couple of month. Just started playing legacy 6 month ago:)
Got my own food chain deck together a month ago and I most say I love it! (eli kassis list atm)
Saw on mtgpusle that top 4rd Jesper holm in Stockholm, congratulations:) could you give some insight to running jace? The card is good, I get that, but what makes it so good in food chain?
Regards

[Holmen]

Hi! Thanks! I think Kassis list looks OK, however, 17 lands are an INSANE choice for this deck. 19 is on the low end for a deck that combos with a 3 and a 4 drop.

Jace was a metacall/experiment for a more combo oriented t16. It gives room for t1 death rite, t2 chain >jace>empath>griffin since it's mono colored. Strix and Agent are bad at fast combing with their multi-colors. It is a must handle, improves our grind, solves the clunk-issue of having multiple manipulate fate in hand etc. IN THEORY. It was actually awful, every time I drew it I wished it was a ponder. It seemed great on paper, but underperformed. My mistake (I think) was comparing it to ponder, 6 cantrips are essential for a smooth game. If anything, it could take Strix-places in rug-less metas.


Hey guys, been lurking this food chain forum for a couple of month. Just started playing legacy 6 month ago:)
Got my own food chain deck together a month ago and I most say I love it! (eli kassis list atm)
Saw on mtgpusle that top 4rd Jesper holm in Stockholm, congratulations:) could you give some insight to running jace? The card is good, I get that, but what makes it so good in food chain?
Regards

[movingtonewao]

I've played this deck a long time, you can find my lists online by searching my name.

The easiest final of my life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T24Hcr-iP3c
:)

I've actually NEVER lost to merfolk. Abrupt + Engineered Plague have always been enough for me postboard, as I use abrupt on the lords and Engineered finish the TNN.

I think another Stockholm player was questioning Shardless Agent – I don't think that is a discussion if you have enough experience with the deck. The deck IS worse without agent in my opinion. The agent is the glue which binds the plans together. It improves our midgame, makes our draws less clunky and is supported by the +4 basic land strategy. If you get sad by flipping a Food Chain to the bottom, you don't have the right mindset for the deck yet :) I combo off 1 in 10 games, the rest we win by opponent badly sideboarding in revokers, canonists, and other cards that don't do anything. Against Dnt for example, I'm more than happy to trade resources for +10 turns, and then start playing one griffin a turn, slowly grinding them out.

I don't support discard maindeck, we NEED to interact with permanents or find them with cantrips. (I run 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder) I don't want to play cards that make our lategame worse, we need to be more focused than that. Our cards must have full value in all stages of the game, since we plan to be relevant that whole time.

Lately my board plan has been very resource-focused, disfigures, flusterstorms, surgical, pithing needles, thosughtseizes, etc. Against the fast decks I board all out the fluff (Shardless etc) and bring in streamlined cards, taking a control rout. This has improved my infect, storm, sneak and show matchup a lot.

Just some thoughts!

regarding merfolk: we *can* beat them if we dedicate cards to them, but that's the thing, we need to dedicate cards to them that are pretty rubbish against other matchups and thats where I get hesitant, because unless merfolk is 30% of the meta, I would like to increase my percentages against other more common decks. its just a question of %s. Even then, if we don't get enough decays, or we don't see any eplagues, or we see an eplague after they land a lord but we don't have abrupt decay...you get the idea...it is pretty rubbish overall :( they have 8 islandwalkers that happen to pump as well, so it is pretty much who draws better considering you already devoted cards to the matchup. I don't like my odds here.

Death and taxes is a matchup where we should be siding out the combo anyway, but griffins stay in. So off goes 4 food chain, and then you can bring in whatever you like :)

I still think maindeck discard is a necessary evil depending on your meta. Our weakness is in the early game, and discard is part of the 'bridge' that helps us to get to the mid game where we shine.

[Ltj999]

Hi! Thanks! I think Kassis list looks OK, however, 17 lands are an INSANE choice for this deck. 19 is on the low end for a deck that combos with a 3 and a 4 drop.

Jace was a metacall/experiment for a more combo oriented t16. It gives room for t1 death rite, t2 chain >jace>empath>griffin since it's mono colored. Strix and Agent are bad at fast combing with their multi-colors. It is a must handle, improves our grind, solves the clunk-issue of having multiple manipulate fate in hand etc. IN THEORY. It was actually awful, every time I drew it I wished it was a ponder. It seemed great on paper, but underperformed. My mistake (I think) was comparing it to ponder, 6 cantrips are essential for a smooth game. If anything, it could take Strix-places in rug-less metas.

Could you post your list?

[Holmen]

Could you post your list?

Sure!
I won't get inte all the card choices since we have a lot of arguments already for and against cards, but in broader strokes, I have a configuration where we accept losing against combo game 1, but a great matchup against most fair decks, miracles included. (Shardless is an exception imo). You can find earlier versions of my deck in this thread or here: http://www.scvopen.com/top-8-decklists-legacy-scvopen4/

Board is more resource streamlined to handle faster combo decks where shardless doesn't shine.

Lands (20)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island

Creatures (17)

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Fierce Empath
1 Tombstalker (can be Tasigur or/and Gurmag, but I usually wind back at the old Tombas)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Other spells (23)

4 Food Chain
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay (could cut one for a maindeck Golgari Charm if you have a lot of matchups locally where the -1/-1 is relevant)
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Maelstrom Pulse (can be Murderous Cut – I like having one answer to Lodestone Golem etc if necessery in main)
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)

2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (something for all SnT-based decks, have been running a Tidespout sometimes)
1 Notion Thief (flex slot, should be changed, but I don't know for what yet. And the valueee....)
1 Spell Pierce (flex slot, should be changed, but I don't know for what yet)

I'm a big fan of Plague and have always been running 2, but we have a lot of DnT, Goblins, Merfolk and Elves running around, which makes them crucial to me. A small sidenote on the mana base: All fetches get basic swamp, which is the most important land turn one if you lack cantrip. It opens up for a safe Abrupt/Strix turn two, going around wasteland. It's crucial that we get our second land out and this mana config supports that.

[JackaBo]

Nice to see you here Jesper!

I know about your accomplishments with the deck and I sure value your oppinion. On the other hand I consider Eli Cassis a good magic player so I think his lis have some merits. If I understand your SB plan right your post board vs combo looks a bit like Cassis/mine mainboard (out with shardless in with disruption and flusterstorm). So basically Cassis list is more prepared vs combo and less vs creature decks? I'm sure you know the Stockholm metagame more than me but my 12 games so far have been roughly 50/50 combo decks and creature decks, and barring Merfolk I feel like I've had good matchups against creature decks.

I was also sceptical, and still is to some exent, with 17 lands, not because I lose due to missing lands a lot but because I tend to cantrip for lands instead of cantripping away unecessary lands. On the other hands a low land count makes for better topdecks in the mid to late game. I also have dedicated SB slots for Carpet of Flowers which helps with mana vs Delver decks.

For me, being a beginner of playing Food chain as well as playing Legacy, the discard spells also fills the role of giving me information of the opponents hand. A more experienced player might be able to anticipate opponents respons but for me seeing no daze means i dont have to play around it. So I'm keeping the discard spells in for now. I agree that they are often bad topdecks in the mid to late game unelss you're planning to go off and want to clear the way, but as Movingtonewao said it's pretty nice T1 to take away an early threat to smoothly sail into midgame.

Onto another question: Now that Eldrazi is the real deal, do we dedicate SB vs it?

[Holmen]

That is correct, Shardless goes out and the disruption goes in. Another rout worth considering is a white splash for Meddling Mage etc, and keeping Shardless in. The setup t1: Deathrite, t2: Shardless – sets up the T3 combo a lot of the time, since it finds bodies, cantrips, and removal for hate cards like revoker. The fact that it cascades into Manipulate Fate is very important.

I have played down to 18 lands, and as you say, you tend to cantrip FOR lands. In my opinion, that is not utilizing ponders and brainstorms properly. I like cantripping for gas :)

Carpet is interesting, with the Shardless build the matchup is good enough without them I think. I've been running 1-2 a couple of times in the board.
Discard as a information thing as a beginner seems like a nice tactic! It's like git probe – often you learn to build your deck without it when you played it enough :)

I met eldrazi yesterday, BOY that was easy. Their warping wail sucks, Chalice is crap against the 4 Abrupt main-build and it seems that double griffin blocks smackers really well. (I played a Tombstalker yesterday as well)

I will include a dismember in my board for the matchup, it helps against Lodestone as well which is a problem.

Last thought: I'm really tempted to try a 3-4 Managorger Hydra-build, instead of Empath and Emrakul. Has anyone tried them?



Nice to see you here Jesper!

I know about your accomplishments with the deck and I sure value your oppinion. On the other hand I consider Eli Cassis a good magic player so I think his lis have some merits. If I understand your SB plan right your post board vs combo looks a bit like Cassis/mine mainboard (out with shardless in with disruption and flusterstorm). So basically Cassis list is more prepared vs combo and less vs creature decks? I'm sure you know the Stockholm metagame more than me but my 12 games so far have been roughly 50/50 combo decks and creature decks, and barring Merfolk I feel like I've had good matchups against creature decks.

I was also sceptical, and still is to some exent, with 17 lands, not because I lose due to missing lands a lot but because I tend to cantrip for lands instead of cantripping away unecessary lands. On the other hands a low land count makes for better topdecks in the mid to late game. I also have dedicated SB slots for Carpet of Flowers which helps with mana vs Delver decks.

For me, being a beginner of playing Food chain as well as playing Legacy, the discard spells also fills the role of giving me information of the opponents hand. A more experienced player might be able to anticipate opponents respons but for me seeing no daze means i dont have to play around it. So I'm keeping the discard spells in for now. I agree that they are often bad topdecks in the mid to late game unelss you're planning to go off and want to clear the way, but as Movingtonewao said it's pretty nice T1 to take away an early threat to smoothly sail into midgame.

Onto another question: Now that Eldrazi is the real deal, do we dedicate SB vs it?

[JackaBo]

Another wednesday another 2-2

Match 1 I played versus Grixis Tezzeret
Game 1 i went off pretty fast while he durdled
Game 2 I board in null rod and take out a strix and misdirection. I had seen wasteland G1 so i fetch for island and swamp, then draws into an Underground Sea with 3! decay and the whole combo in hand. Meanwhile he has chalice and ensnaring bridge and the thopter foundry. when he plays sword of the meek i respond with brainstorm and he falls to the trick, i draw into a fetchland and gets my green mana for the the combo. He scoops when emrakul hits the board eventhough I think he could have stayed in the game, making thopters to for anihilator trigger and for blocking and eventually drawing into another bridge. So first game 2-0.

Match 2 I face Elves for the first time ever. I know this guy is a pretty good magican so i think I get a bit intimidated by both him and the match up I'm unfamiliar with.
So G1 he mulls to 5 so I start off with Thoughtseize taking a Natural Order i think. Then he plays glimps of nature T2 which i FOW. It looks pretty good to me and I assemble a Zombie Fish for some preasure. After fowing a natural order: we're both down to one card in hand and he has quite a few elves out. My card is IoK so I play it. He reveals Behemoth, d'oh. Next turn he plays it for the win.
Game 2 I SB in 2 grafdiggers cage, needle, drift of phantasms, Engineered plague and Golgari charm. I take out.. the strixes and misdirect and hand disruption i think. Turns out he SB:ed out natural order since I saved a FOW for it so maybe Grafdiggers cage wasn't as useful after all? Anyway I draw a hand of cantrips, needle, lands and a DRS so I keep. I put the needle on Symbiot thinking that otherwice my abrupt decays will be useless. Perhabs this was bad cause he get to use Ranger to get alot of mana and from there on it's a landslide. I think I might have survived had I drawn the golgari charm cause he draws his entire deck save a few cards and have 20+ elves on the board when he plays Hoof. Gogalri charm would have basically cleared most of the board and the sentinels were summing sick. Better luck next time I guess.

Match 3 my opponent start with probe into cabal therapy so I take it he's on storm. Next turn he plays Satyr wayfinder, so I'm a bit confused. Turns out the plays zombie bombardment.. zombardment? Really fun deck. Unfortunatly for me he draw 2 or even 3 cabal therapy and shreds my hand.
G2 I board in surgical extraction, needle, grafdiggers cage, drift of phanstasms and engineered plague. From last game vs elves I realize that Drift not only finds combo pieces but also finds Plague which is nice. I take out Strixes thinking he's a combo deck and misdirect since he relies on permanents more than "spells". This is probably bad SB:ing but I assemble T3 combo and win.
G3 gets very close because he gets on a beat down plan and I have no blockers. We ends up with me having 2 life, 4 lands and a DRS + needle on Goblin Bombardment on board while he has a Gravecrawler and Satyr wayfinder, a DRS and Bombardment. I have to think a long time for the right play: I have decay, drift of phantasms, food chain in hand plus Griffins in exile. I end up decaying his DRS and playing Drift as a blocker (tapping my own DRS for mana). He attacks and gets me down to 1 then passes the turn. I play Food chain, exile Drift for the Griffins and exiles a creature with DRS to stabilize at 3 life. From there on i take over the game. Very close and fun game. A decay on my needle, for instance, would have ended the game, right there. About the boarding I think i should have taken out FOW and some discard and left in the strixes.

Match 4 begins in the same manner - probe into cabal therapy, and this time it's storm. I have already mulled a no land hand kept a hand with 2 land, 2 fow, cantrip, fate. So when he plays cabal therapy I realize I have to FOW it or he takes both of them. A few turns later he strips the other FOW and goes off with past in flames. I board out 2 empath, emrakul, abrupt decay and some strixes. In comes 2x grafidiggers, 2x null rod, 2x spell pierce and surgical extraction.
Game two he tried the same route but I'm ready to remove the important cards in graveyard with DRS and Surgical.
Game 3 I keep a questionable hand, with vendillion clique and DRS being the only disruption. I draw into Grafdiggers cage and choses to play it instead of vendillion clique turn 2. He goes off without using the graveyard.
So losing against storm was kind of disappointing since I feel pretty good about the match up.

About the sideboard. I've taken out my duress from the SB to run more creature hate. But I'm beginning to wonder if it discard isn't better than counters in this matchup. The Meddling mage option as Holmen suggests sounds kind of good too, except I'm not sure if my weak mana base can cope with another colour, even with Scrubland in SB. I'm also considering taking out Dread of Night. Maybe for a Toxic deluge or another spot removal.

@Holmen How did it go for you, Jesper? I saw you beating fish :) Eldrazi seems ok for us but I also want a SB card too that can kill big beaters. However I think it would be nice if that card would also kill a Griselbrand. Go for the throat doesnt kill Lodestone and Maelstrom is at sorcery speed :/

Managorger seems fun, but being able to sac Empath for mana for griffin is crucial to my deck, that doesn't have Shardless agent as three drop. I'm gonna try agent on Cockatrice once more and see how it goes. I guess I'll just test your entire list. :D

[Holmen]

Hi! Harsh meeting both storm and elves for you, they are hard matchups.

Yeah, I beat merfolk game one without much problem as usual – they can't stop the chain. (in all fairness, Merfolk is very good against our removal, on the other hand we don't care about chalice, back to basics or curse catcher which are their prime lock pieces. Their jitte can be problematic since all guys have islandwalk)

Game two i met Hannes on miracles (very good player), we had the craziest finish: He has Jace, top, counterbalance, 3 life, no cards in hand. I have Brainstorm and Emrakul in hand, 2 griffs out, food chain. I attack for lethal, he uses top and in response puts it on top. Reveals terminus, I exile griffs, he rearrange his library. I know his only out is e venser or jace on top to lock me out of griffins, so I safely brainstorm, find empath, gets tasigur, play him for 1 mana, exile both to hardcast Emrakul. Tight!

Game three i meet dark maverick, lose the die roll and draw poorly, lose 2-1. Maverick is hard, they attack on many fronts and usually have marit lage as their own combo finish. Here I usually want to combo fast or lose.

Game four I meet the mirror – fortunately for me, he plays discard over Shardless, so I grind him out easy with greater value and Deathrites 2-0. In the mirror, it's important NOT to be combo deck, since we have a great mirrorgame with the abrupts. Not having the 2/2 beatsticks hurts a lot in this matchup.

3-1 in total.

I play one Murdeorous Cut in main. It brings back griffs, goes around taxing effects (can always cost 1) and kills all.


Another wednesday another 2-2

@Holmen How did it go for you, Jesper? I saw you beating fish :) Eldrazi seems ok for us but I also want a SB card too that can kill big beaters. However I think it would be nice if that card would also kill a Griselbrand. Go for the throat doesnt kill Lodestone and Maelstrom is at sorcery speed :/

[JackaBo]

@Holmen Yeah, that card is exactly what I want. Do you think submerge is too.. much "tempo play"? Nice to win ramping with the delve guys into Emrakul. That route is usually unexpected.

So, in which match ups do you guys take out FOW? I mean, the general rule of thumb is to sideboard it out versus all fair decks since it's card disadvantage. In this deck, however it isn't necessarily so. I know it depends on what's in the SB to replace it, but I'm guessing we've got pretty similar cards.

For me, the matches i definitely want to keep FOW in are vs storm, reanimator, show and tell and burn
And I generally take it it out versus delver decks, unless they run TNN

But the other matches I'm not sure.
Elves: I'm leaning on keeping it in for glimpse and the bombs
Miracle: I'm leaning on keeping it in for terminus, counterwars over food chain and entreat. I can also see myself FOWing Jace.
Shardless; I'm leaning on keeping it in as well. Hymn is pretty nice to FOW if you got more valuable cards to protect, Visions is actually CA to FOW. And Jace.
Lands: I dont know.. Fowing gamble or exploration is nice I guess. In this matchup we need to stall and FOW kind of does that.
Death and taxes: In this match up I think I want to take it out because of Vial.
Maverick: Probably take it out?
Chalice decks: i dont know, versus MUD i might want to keep it, versus Loam I think it goes out.
Stoneblade decks: Not sure.. maybe keep?

How do you guys do versus different decks?

[arbiter]

Hey guys!

I've been testing Food Chain for some weeks and have really liked the deck. Haven't got to play in a tournament yet so testing has been pretty limited, still results are good. Usually I've played blue tempo decks (RUG) but wanted some change with so many Chalices and such rolling around and because this deck feels sweet :)

I like that it can attack from so many different angles and has lots of card advantage and isn't easily disrupted. I think the weaknesses are fast combo decks (at least pre-board unless we get faster hand or FoW is enough) and possibly tempo decks with Daze and Stifle, because our stuff are pretty costly.

From my experience, if we get to mid/late game then we're in favor because so many value cards and the Griffins. At the moment I'm playing with Shardless Agents and also made room for Tarmogoyf because it's nice beater that can grow big in this deck, also it has won me many games in the past ;) Vela the Night-Clad as instant win-con, because I like to win fast and it's in some cases hardcastable.


Regarding Force of Will, I think I would keep it against all the combo-decks, burn, tempo decks, and basically all the decks that want to keep the game short and focus on the early game, excluding aggro decks that play cavern of souls (maybe keep some against merfolk or eldrazi). Also I think I'd keep them or at least some of them against big mana-decks or decks that play high-impact cards (12Post, Stompy decks, Miracles). Against midrange and fair decks, I don't think there's many cards that this deck couldn't handle without the Forces. And when the game is usually won with CA, FoW feels like the card to cut if there's something to bring in. Depends on the situation how to board and what to expect though.

At the moment my sideboard is mostly combo and aggro hate because I feel our fair deck matchups are already pretty good. Against most fair decks I usually sideboard in 2 disfigure (if they play drs/delver/sfm/etc), Umezawa's Jitte and Maelstrom Pulse. Against DnT and Maverick and other "weenie" decks I bring also Engineered plague and Golgari Charm obviously (or Deluge, if you have). For graveyard hate I have 3 Leyline of the Void and against combo 3 Duress and 2 Thoughtseize (could be used in some midrange or control matchups too). I've thought about Meddling Mage, but for now I'm going with the discards.

Still learning and tuning it the way I like. Best is to test yourself for different options, I don't think there's A correct list or sideplan, but this is my experience so far. Let's keep evolving, Peace :)

[movingtonewao]

hello and welcome. just wanted to point out that FOW isn't really losing CA in this deck as much as other decks, because we are usually throwing away griffin and the griffin comes back. so its just a free counterspell sometimes. Also, sometimes 4 force of will isn't the way to go but maybe a 3+1 split with misdirection depending on your meta. misdirection on things like thoughtseze/hymn to tourach/burn spell/maelstrom pulse/abrupt decay are all pretty sick.

[JonBarber]

Hey,

It's been awhile since I've posted on here, but I've been playing Food Chain for awhile and wanted to share my thoughts.

I picked up the deck right before GP SeaTac as it seemed the perfect call for the meta. I went in with zero byes and ended day 1 at X-2. A mediocre day 2 ended up leaving me in 135th out of 2,012. I've played it a few times here and there in local Seattle tournaments since, but hadn't touched the deck in about two months. I decided to take it for a spin tonight at Card Kingdom's weekly legacy event. Here's the list:

(19) Creatures
4 Misthollow Griffin
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Fierce Empath
2 Shardless Agent
1 Tombstalker
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Vela the Night-Clad

(22) Non-Creatures
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Brainstorm
4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
1 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
1 Dismember

(20) Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island

Sidebaord:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Plague
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
2 Pithing Needle
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Disfigure
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thoughtseize

I went 3-1 tonight, beating Burn x2, BUG Nic Fit, and losing a close match to MUD.

Here are some thoughts on my list and why I chose what I did:

4 Griffin
In my opinion the choice to run 4 Griffins impacts this list more than anything else. While I understand why people want to go down to 3, I think the card is surprisingly good on it's own. A 3/3 flier that doesn't die to abrupt decay, swords to plowshares, punishing fire, forked bolt, disfigure, or counsel's judgement can sometimes just win games. Running 4 Griffin makes it just a tad easier to switch into beat down mode while also making you more likely to combo off. Just having Griffin + Food Chain enables a lot of broken things.

2 Shardless Agent
I didn't play Shardless Agent at the GP and I've only recently come around on him in the list. I still don't think you want more than 2, as having multiple in hand feels terrible. I think it's a better 3 drop than Clique and really helps to make your opponent feel like they're on the back foot. I've tried to make my maindeck and sideboard as wiff free as possible to make sure the card is always hitting value.

1 Tombstalker, 1 Gurmag Angler
I ran Tasigur at the GP, however I don't think he's worth it. I rarely found myself appreciating his ability and more often frowning at my opponent's Karakas. Running 1 Tombstalker and 1 Gurmag allows you to tutor the more appropriate one for the situation, however both are fine draws. These two also help to enable the beatdown plan a little better as they are fat and return dead Griffins to exile.

1 Vela the Night-Clad
I'm still deciding how I feel about her vs Emrakul, but she certainly got the job done tonight. I wound up pitching her to force of will in a few clutch moments tonight, a utility Emrakul could never hope to provide. I like that she picks up wins in situations Emrakul can't, but I'm really afraid of my opponents holding up pyroblast or swords for her. I'm going to stick with Vela for now, but Emrakul might be a correct meta choice at times.

1 Sylvan Library, 1 Painful Truths
Instead of ponder, I'm running these two as well as playing 20 lands. Because I'm focusing more on the beatdown plan, I want more pure card advantage than early filtering. Sylvan Library is insane. Enough said. I was impressed with Painful Truths. You can control the life loss when it matters, but more often than not it's a draw three. Going T1 Deathrite, T2 Painful Truths on the play is so strong.

1 Dismember
This is a bit of a meta call, but I also prefer removal not be hit by Shardless agent. Dismember does that while also taking out pesky Eldrazi, Tarmogoyfs, Delvers, and Goblin Guides.

4 Polluted Delta, 4 Misty Rainforest, 1 Verdant Catacombs
20 lands because I'm running 4 Griffin, Painful Truths, and no ponders. Got flooded a few times tonight, but I never really minded because I was doing a lot with the mana. But fetches because I often want basic island for casting Griffin.

2 Bayou, 2 Tropical Island
I'm running an extra Bayou over a fetch and an extra Tropical over an island. I wanted to ensure my Painful Truth would hit 3 with no problems. I want to play the second island, but I also want to cast turn 2 abrupt decays. Life is pain.

Sideboard:

2 Thoughtseize, 1 Flusterstorm
The maindeck is rather soft to combo, so these are the heavy hitters to bring in. A lot of the matchups I board flusterstorm in I'm also boarding out Shardless, so no bad feelings there

1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Dread of Night, 1 Disfigure
These allow you to beat up the creature decks pretty well. I don't love disfigure, but it is a necessary evil for all the 1 drops that want to kill you quickly.

2 Carpet of Flowers
Comes in against decks with lots of islands. Very good when you have 4 Griffins to be casting with all the mana.

1 Engineered Plague
The Seattle meta has seen an uptick in Goblins and merfolk, so this is an easy call. It's also very good against Grixis Delver on Human.

2 Relic of Progenitus
I really like this card against goyf/deathrite shaman decks. Lets talk about how sweet this card is. It allows you to chump block every turn by recuring your Griffin. It allows you to shrink their Gofy by removing the Food Chains that have likely wound up in your yard. It allows you to blank their deathrite activation on things your graveyard. It shits on nimble mongoose. Relic also provides your usual grave hate for Reanimator/Storm/Tin Fins/Dredge/etc.

2 Pithing Needle
All around good stuff.

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Very helpful in the grindy matchups

1 Scavenging Ooze
A little extra grave hate that happens to beat down and gain you life. What more could you ask for?

The deck is a blast to play and I think it's still pretty well positioned in the meta. I need to test against eldrazi more to get a feel for the matchup, but overall I think it's a great choice.

[Cambriel]

I'm playing a Ponder build, but had no difficulty vs. Eldrazi last weekend. To be fair, the player wasn't the most familiar with the deck, but I never really felt under much pressure, even with reality smasher beating down. Decay handles Chalice and Revoker no problem, and you can afford to FoW Thought-Knot Seer to protect your Food Chains in hand.

Trample ends up being your biggest problem, because you can't just perma-block Reality Smasher. Everything else is a breeze.

[JackaBo]

@Arbiter and Movingtonewao: Yeah maybe I take it out to often. Taking one or two out vs fair decks may be right - depending on what comes in of course. Since I play discard there's also a balance between taking out counters or discard, and weather I'm on the play or draw. I've been playing 3+1 FOW/Misdirect but will be moving over to 4 FOW. Misdirect have been awesome occasionally, but sometimes I've just regretted it wasn't FOW.

@JonBarber: Nice list! I like how everyone have their own take on the numbers and "flexspots". The beatdown plan is usually what ends up happening so sounds good focusing on it.

@Cambriel: I've been running a 4 ponder build as well and like it so far. However if the meta turns into more chalice of the void i think I would like less cantrips and more action. Maybe go down to 2 ponder and up one land and a mainboard pulse. Did you feel too "cantrippy" playing vs chalice?

[Cambriel]

I never allowed it to resolve unless I was holding a Decay, so Chalice never felt like a problem. I freely admit, however, that I'm very new to this deck archetype and my experiences are only anecdotal.

I'm considering shaving a single Ponder, because I do feel cantrip heavy sometimes. The issue becomes what goes in its place. I'm playing 20 creatures / 22 spells / 18 lands right now, with Shardless Agent and Ponder feeling like the weakest links. I may try pulling those for maindeck discard effects and either a Library or or Misdirection.

[JackaBo]

I'll just make a quick report on last legacy event. Again I went 2-2. I dont feel bad about it, as I'm still learning this deck. I'm even glad I can compete with 50% ratio.

Game 1 versus same Elves player as I lost 0-2 to, the wednesday before. I lost 0-2 again. But it was pretty close. I had learnt a few things since last time. In G2 Elves tend to weaken their combo potential bringing in decay and other cards to fight through hate. Last time my opponent did SB out Natural order and went on a beatdown plan. I did not sideboard in Grafdiggers cage for this reason, and kept misdirect in (which is a dead card in game 1, but is nice versus decay). I switched out one fow, one strix, duress and therapy and in came Golgari charm, Engineered plague, Submerge and Diabolic edict. My low land count kept me on 2 lands and DRS kept in check from opposing DRS + Ranger. More land drops and I might have taken a game.

Game 2 playing against a budget (unfinished) POX deck. 2-1
He didnt have wasteland nor liliana. And with no wastelands he played Sink hole in SB - good for me! Game 1 I mulled to five and got hit by hymn. G2 I was in trouble but managed to stabilize a DRS gaining life and Grffins to beatdown. G3 I assembled the combo. SB:ing was hard in this matchup. I knew he ran Zombie Fish of his own so i didn't wanna take out Strix. He had Bottomless Pit instead of Liliana so I didn't wanna SB out Decay. I didn't wanna SB out FOW or misdirect since because of hymn. I ended up weakening my combo to fit my 2 spell pierces. Worked out great. Unifinished deck is unfinished deck though: Liliana, Wastelands and Sinkohle would have been more scary.

Game 3 versus Jund. 2-0
Game 1 he decays my Food chain mid combo, with Empath on the stack. I fetches my second angler with one already in play. Game 2 i beat down with griffins, saving my food chain from Decay using a Misdirect. Felt much easier than I expected, since I fear both Hymn and P.fire. I sideboarded in my Surgical extraction, Submerge and Diabolic Edict. Out came Clique, Duress and Therapy.

Game 4 versus Eldrazi 0-2. Game 1 I defended myself well with strix and finally stabilized with 4 mana and 3 griffins in exile. Unfortunatly I made the mistake to attack with one Griffin of my two griffins on board versus his lone Mimic and four mana sources. He draws land an in comes Smasher. I had to block, and since I couldnt double block I couldnt stabilize. G2 I drew no action and got overrun. In game 1 I had no mana problems but in Game 2 my weak Mana base punished me (again).

So I've decided to up the land-count by 2.
I'm thinking of adding 2 fetches or 1 fetch and one more dual. I'm pretty sure I want to cut one ponder, because often I ponder for lands and I would rather have a land in that spot. The other spot is harder.
- I could take out one discard but I think that 3 discard feels a little weird. I almost rather run 2 than 3 discard for some reason. I guess therapy is the first discard to go?
- I could also take out one Zombie Fish (I'm running two) but I feel that playing the first for preasure and saving the other to delve dead Griffins is nice. Also double Anglers on board is hard for many decks to deal with.
- I guess Vendillion clique is also a flex spot, but I need my third 3 drop creature and it fits well into the discard theme of the deck, making Therapy better.
- I guess I could cut a second ponder.

How would you guys go about it?

I have also thought about testing 2 shardless agents, partly because I lose alot of life to small creatures attacking and another body on the field would be nice. Against non-aggro deck I sometimes feels like I would want a better clock than Baleful Strix beatdown, and Shardless is twice as good a clock. I also feel like cascading into discrad spells versus combo and controll is damn nice. problem is.. what to cut?

[Holmen]

Hi! Rough with the 2-2 again :/

I like that you are sliding into the shardless route :) So much value! One of my most regular combowins are Agent, next turn chain. Most people don't want to kill agent since it has given us value already, which is the perfect start of a chain. Also goes around Canonist which is relevant many games: since it's an artifact you get to play what you cascade in to.
I also like the plan to up your land count, 19 is a fine number if you play agents.
I feel one Angler is plenty, the Murderous Cut as a second enabler for delve has been great.

I had another 3-1:
2-0 against helmcombo, easy games
2-1 against infect: I boarded out all my combo game 2-3, won on the back of infinite removal
2-0 against aggroloam: We remove eachothers stuff for X turns, when we both are out of cards I start jamming one griff a turn from exile.
0-2 against Elves: poor draws, hard matchup, not much dedication in my board. I'm going to commit something more in the board against the deck. Kind of interested in a red splash in board for Sharpshooter, Kozilek's Return or Staticaster. Or just an Elesh Norn to combo out through an Angler.


I'll just make a quick report on last legacy event. Again I went 2-2. I dont feel bad about it, as I'm still learning this deck. I'm even glad I can compete with 50% ratio.

Game 1 versus same Elves player as I lost 0-2 to, the wednesday before. I lost 0-2 again. But it was pretty close. I had learnt a few things since last time. In G2 Elves tend to weaken their combo potential bringing in decay and other cards to fight through hate. Last time my opponent did SB out Natural order and went on a beatdown plan. I did not sideboard in Grafdiggers cage for this reason, and kept misdirect in (which is a dead card in game 1, but is nice versus decay). I switched out one fow, one strix, duress and therapy and in came Golgari charm, Engineered plague, Submerge and Diabolic edict. My low land count kept me on 2 lands and DRS kept in check from opposing DRS + Ranger. More land drops and I might have taken a game.

Game 2 playing against a budget (unfinished) POX deck. 2-1
He didnt have wasteland nor liliana. And with no wastelands he played Sink hole in SB - good for me! Game 1 I mulled to five and got hit by hymn. G2 I was in trouble but managed to stabilize a DRS gaining life and Grffins to beatdown. G3 I assembled the combo. SB:ing was hard in this matchup. I knew he ran Zombie Fish of his own so i didn't wanna take out Strix. He had Bottomless Pit instead of Liliana so I didn't wanna SB out Decay. I didn't wanna SB out FOW or misdirect since because of hymn. I ended up weakening my combo to fit my 2 spell pierces. Worked out great. Unifinished deck is unfinished deck though: Liliana, Wastelands and Sinkohle would have been more scary.

Game 3 versus Jund. 2-0
Game 1 he decays my Food chain mid combo, with Empath on the stack. I fetches my second angler with one already in play. Game 2 i beat down with griffins, saving my food chain from Decay using a Misdirect. Felt much easier than I expected, since I fear both Hymn and P.fire. I sideboarded in my Surgical extraction, Submerge and Diabolic Edict. Out came Clique, Duress and Therapy.

Game 4 versus Eldrazi 0-2. Game 1 I defended myself well with strix and finally stabilized with 4 mana and 3 griffins in exile. Unfortunatly I made the mistake to attack with one Griffin of my two griffins on board versus his lone Mimic and four mana sources. He draws land an in comes Smasher. I had to block, and since I couldnt double block I couldnt stabilize. G2 I drew no action and got overrun. In game 1 I had no mana problems but in Game 2 my weak Mana base punished me (again).

So I've decided to up the land-count by 2.
I'm thinking of adding 2 fetches or 1 fetch and one more dual. I'm pretty sure I want to cut one ponder, because often I ponder for lands and I would rather have a land in that spot. The other spot is harder.
- I could take out one discard but I think that 3 discard feels a little weird. I almost rather run 2 than 3 discard for some reason. I guess therapy is the first discard to go?
- I could also take out one Zombie Fish (I'm running two) but I feel that playing the first for preasure and saving the other to delve dead Griffins is nice. Also double Anglers on board is hard for many decks to deal with.
- I guess Vendillion clique is also a flex spot, but I need my third 3 drop creature and it fits well into the discard theme of the deck, making Therapy better.
- I guess I could cut a second ponder.

How would you guys go about it?

I have also thought about testing 2 shardless agents, partly because I lose alot of life to small creatures attacking and another body on the field would be nice. Against non-aggro deck I sometimes feels like I would want a better clock than Baleful Strix beatdown, and Shardless is twice as good a clock. I also feel like cascading into discrad spells versus combo and controll is damn nice. problem is.. what to cut?

[movingtonewao]

I will actually consider elves a difficult matchup. In a way they are very similar to us, they are ok playing the grinding game, and they also have a combo finish, but their combo is faster than us. The thing is that after sideboard it can get pretty nasty with their reclamation sages. If you have discard in your opening hand it helps, but even then its still difficult. Definitely one i try to avoid if i can.

[Cambriel]

Golgari Charm and Engineered Plague both help, but it isn't perfect. Ultimately they just flood the board with little dudes that can nickel and dime you to death while you're holding mana up to defend against hoof.

[movingtonewao]

this is correct. if the elves player knows what they are doing, it will be rough, and i don't see the point of preparing more sideboard cards for what i consider a rare matchup, unless you have a local meta full of elves.

[Holmen]

Agreed, it's one of our hardest matches. I will try one NoSB instead of plague in board along with one Elesh Norn. I like a second fatty in board and 8 mana is very easy to chain out without griffins. I will also switch one disfigure for one darkblast. Minor changes but might prove relevant.


this is correct. if the elves player knows what they are doing, it will be rough, and i don't see the point of preparing more sideboard cards for what i consider a rare matchup, unless you have a local meta full of elves.

[JackaBo]

Agreed, it's one of our hardest matches. I will try one NoSB instead of plague in board along with one Elesh Norn. I like a second fatty in board and 8 mana is very easy to chain out without griffins. I will also switch one disfigure for one darkblast. Minor changes but might prove relevant.

With ~8 mana bombs carpet of flowers become a better SB card. hard to find the space though. As I said I've been testing with a Griselbrand in my 75 and angler into griselbrand or carpet into griselbrand is actually feasible. Norn is of course awesome both in offense and defense. The only issue I have is that more bombs make more starting hands bad. If only mana drain were unbanned :)


I like that you are sliding into the shardless route :) So much value! One of my most regular combowins are Agent, next turn chain. Most people don't want to kill agent since it has given us value already, which is the perfect start of a chain. Also goes around Canonist which is relevant many games: since it's an artifact you get to play what you cascade in to.
I also like the plan to up your land count, 19 is a fine number if you play agents.
I feel one Angler is plenty, the Murderous Cut as a second enabler for delve has been great.

I'm not quite there yet :) But I have been seeing the discard spells' problem more and more, topdecking duress can be really bad in a lot of matchups. And now if Eldrazi "chases away" both storm and miracle I guess discard becomes even worse. I'm not even sure if the meta will shift at all in our little stockholm metagame, though. People will play what deck they have, right? i'm gonna take baby steps with my configuration: On Wednesday I plan start with one less ponder and one more catacomb. Moving towards only black fethclands sounds like a good idea. I usually also fetch swamp T1.

I'm curious about your current list, Movingtonewao, since you both advocate discard and shardless, if I'm not mistaken. Have you found room for some number of both? If I move away from discard maindeck I would certainly want to dedicate more of the board towards combo. Do you guys feel your sideboard makes G2 and G3 favorable versus storm? As it is now I run 8 relevant cards maindeck (4 discard, 4 FOW) besides DRS which is somewhat relevant. I can board in up to 7 cards versus storm with my current sideboard (2 spell pierce, 2 null rod, 2 grafdiggers cage, 1 surgical extraction). Maybe I have too much storm hate between maindeck and sideboard?

[Ltj999]

Howdy All,

Been messing around with food chain and was finally able to finish the deck recently. This is the list I threw together for 2-2 finish, in what was a very strange meta, so I wont go through a report (spoiler played dredge 2x and R/W stompy once...yuck..)

Anyway here is my list:

4 Drs
4 Griffin
4 Strix
2 Empath
1 Angler
1 Tombstalker
1 Clique
1 Tidespout

4 Brainstorm
4 Decay
4 FoW
4 Food Chain
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

4 Misty
4 Delta
2 Verdant
3 U-Sea
2 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest


SB:

1 Engineered Plague
1 Scooze
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
2 Relic of P
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Murderous Cut
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Jitte

Granted I don't have too many reps with this list, but here are my initial thoughts. The beatdown plan felt strong with the griffins, but I did wish a times for more ponders as sometimes I would have a food chain (or 2) in hand, and wished that I would have a ponder to look more for the other part of the combo. 19 Lands felt ok, I might cut a fetch to add in a second ponder, but there is some tension with having a deck that can get some clunky draws, necessitating more lands, but also wanting more cantrips to search for the combo cards. I actually found myself siding out some lands vs combo, as I would also take out most of my combo, which helped free up some slots in those match-ups.

I've also had thoughts of going down to 3 food chains as having 2 in hand feels bad at times, although I did win some games by forcing the opponents abrupt decay on the first food chain, only to untap and combo them with the 2nd.

Love the clique, as I was able to play it on their end-step, to clear the way then untap, play a food chain, then combo out with exiling the clique. Wish I could go to 2 MD, but there really just isnt room.

I really like the 2 maindeck discard. It seems like a solid number, as I've used it much more to clear the way pre-combo, vs a control piece that it seems like Eli's build pushes it in.

With 3 delve cards post board, it felt kinda heavy on delve. Probably also a side effect of the matchups that I wanted angler and Tombstalker in I also wanted the cut in. Might change the cut to a dismember in the board.

Going to be trying out the deck with an emrakul soon, just didnt have access to one when I played before. Granted tidespout got a concession every time it hit the table, and is actually just be hard cast off carpet or even food chain + an angler which gives it some great non-combo value vs emrakul.

The sylvan library is obviously a house when it sticks, but seemed strictly worse vs ponder as in some games it just folded to an abrupt decay. Still undecided about this slot.

Haven't tried out the shardless route, but I feel with the Griffins the deck can grind pretty hard anyway. Also having your manipulate fate FoW'ed is prolly one of the sweetest feelings.

Thoughts?

[JackaBo]

@Ltj999: I like the 4 griffin build, even if I haven't ventured there myself. Wouldn't it be nice with misdirect when you run four Griffins? I'm also undecided on library - the games I tend to lose is because I don't have enough time - and in those cases ponder is way faster than sylvan. I run 4 discard and are having trouble reducing them. I feel like they are strongest in the opening hand and worse as topdecks, so four increases the chance of T1 or T2 discard but also increases the chance of bad topdecks later on...

So last wednesday didn't go too well. I decided to to go down to 3 ponder and up to 18 lands. My plan was adding verdant catacombs, but I didnt get hold of any so I threw in a fourth USea.

G1 versus merfolk (again). Both games were close,but both games were lost to unblockable fishes and nice topdecks on his side. More blue duals vs less fetch kind of hurt, cause I was seriously planning on fetching swamp,forest and bayou and rely on DRS for blue source initally. I boarded in carpet (to further enhance that plan), engineered plague and golgari charm. Took out duress, one FOW, Usea and clique.

G2 versus Food chain :P So mirror match is pretty bizarre. We both ran the Eli Cassis list, basically, his a bit more exact than mine. Both games were strixes staring down on each other. So the game 1 was his due to CA of resolving Manipoulate fate and start summoning Griffins. Game 2 were a stalemate where he drew combo finnish before me. We both boarded carpet, but he boarded in sylvan while I boarded in golgari charm. I took out a land since he didnt run waste and I ran 2 carpets. So 0-2.

G3 versus Grixis delver. He won the dice roll and that kind of decided the outcome. Game one he mulled to 6 but had doubble delver + daze + bolt. Couldn't handle that. Game 2 i beat him down with griffins, boarded in diabolic edict (which was stupid versus pyromancer deck), engineered plague ,golgari charm and carpets. Out came thoughtseize (dont wanna take 2 damage unecesarily) 2 FOW, Clique and a ponder. Game 2 I stumble on 2 mana with a grip full of 3+ drops (including the combo). I even diabolic edicted versus Pyro tokens just to fill my grave for a Zombiefish. So 1-2.

G4 i finally got some redemption. I faced of a home-brewed UR miracle build, with bolts instead of plows and bonfire instead of terminus.Felt like he never had an answer to anything. Game 1 I beat down with a griffin and a clique. Game 2 I won with a single Angler.

So,once again I felt the discard were really good. I got some nice picks in TNN and bonfire of the damned and even struck two tidal couriers with cabal therapy. So for now,the discard is staying.I'm definitly going up to 4 catacombs though as T1 swamp is really nice with 8 black one-drops.I think I'm going to cut edict - it's been mostly disappointing. Replacing it with murderous cut probably which seems like the best black removal. I have been thinking of shriekmaw.. but maybe it's too cute.

[Zeisse]

Hi.

(Sorry for my English)

This past weekend I made Semifinals in a 30 player tournament with JonBarber's list with some small changes.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19835&iddeck=151061

(19) Creatures
4 Misthollow Griffin
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Fierce Empath
2 Shardless Agent
1 Tombstalker
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Emrakul the aeon's thorn

(22) Non-Creatures
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Brainstorm
4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
1 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
1 Dismember

(20) Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island

Sidebaord:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Toxic deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Painful Truths
1 Disfigure
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thoughtseize


JonBarber's list contained 19 lands, but he said he played 20 lands. I decided to ad a second Island and play 61 cards in the maindeck. This second Island gave me the game against Lands in cuarterfinals.


My pairings were:

R1 Eva Green 2-1
R2 Team America 2-1
R3 Eldrazi Stompy 2-1
R4 BG Depths ID
R5 Imperial Painters ID

Quartefinals Lands 2-0
Semifinals Team America 1-2


I side out the combo (4x Food chain + 1x Emrakul) vs Eva Green and Team America. They have Abrupt decay plus sideboard cards against our enchantment and we can't defend with force of will. Sometimes I played Misdirection, but in this version the maindeck is very tight.

I like a lot delve creatures. Before I refused to play them, but I have really enjoyed.

I think the match against combo is a bit risky, We don't have enough cards against them.

Regards.

[JackaBo]

So this is probably nothing new but really want to recommend Null Rod as sidebaordcard. I have ran 2 null rods in my sideboard and it's an excellent sideboard cards versus a bunch of match-ups, including storm which can be a tough match up. Running discard, counters and permanent disruption is very taxing on their post board configuration. Like, boarding in both xanthrid swarm and decay either reduces combo-pieces or the number of discard they they run - great for us. Of course, Null Rod comes in versus Stoneblade, Death and taxes and Maverick (to fight equipment), miracle (to fight sensei) and can also be brought in versus i.e. Twelvepost (sensei and expedition map), Tezzeret (thopter foundry, mana rocks) and MUD (metalworker, monolith, forgemaster) ect ect. A great utility card.

[Holmen]

Tournament report!
Played a GPT yesterday, 6 rounds swiss and t8, around 40 players.

Maindeck (60)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Fierce Empath
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Food Chain
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Sylvan Library
1 Murderous Cut

Sideboard (15)
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dread of Night
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
2 Surgical Extraction

Round one:
Jund lands (They seem to be splashing black for entomb and abrupt decay along with discard in board. Seems like the evolution of lands.)
Game one I get down two deathrites, FOW aggressively and take them to town. 4 Basics is MVP in this matchup.
Game two he gets a quick Marit, I chump for 3 turns with strixes etc, have the win if I draw a land at any point and is brainstorming – but does not find any. (Deathrite even gets me to 21 life so I take one swing from Marit)
Game three I get down a chain, he abrupt, I get down another chain, 3 griffs, angler, a couple of strixes, gg.
2-1

SB: +2 Surgical, 1 needle, -1 cut, 2 ponder

Round two:
Junk Nic Fit
Both games I play manipulate fate. The game is practically over here. He keeps holding up 2 mana for abrupt while I ignore the combo and play one griff a turn.
2-0

SB: +1 Dismember, -1 Ponder

Round three:
Colorless Stax (Crazy deck with chalice, trinisphere, tangle wire and smokestack, along with crucible, lodestone, metamorph and thought-knot)
Game one he lands Lodestone which locks my combo out and follows it up with a metamorph copying lodestone. He has tabernacle and a couple of tangle wires running. I start abrupting mana sources (monoliths, diamonds) so he needs to tap out to save his own dudes. Proceed to grind him out with deathrites and griffins when the tangle wires wear off.
Game two he has infinite stripmines, I boarded in Clique which I play in response to a tangle wire trigger, takes his Warping Wail, next turn he plays Crucible, I abrupt in response to Tangle wire trigger, and then win on the back of the Clique. Oh, and a Null Rod left him stranded with a couple of moxen in hand.
2-0

SB: +1 Null Rod, 1 Dismember, 1 Elesh Norn, -2 Ponder, 1 Shardless Agent

Round four:
Miracle (Great player with the legends-build)
Game one he has 3 counterbalance to my 2 abrupts, I lose a super grindy game that last for 40 minutes.
Game two I take a quick combo.
Game three we draw to catch the toilet before next round.
1-1

SB: +1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, -1 Murderous Cut, 1 Bayou

Round five:
Infect
Game one I play multiple strixes and have a fow at the right moment.
Game two I have A LOT of removal. I take out most of my combo and kill +5 of his dudes and jam up the board until he had enough.
2-0

SB: +1 Pithing Needle, 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, 1 Vendilion Clique, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Dismember, 1 Disfigure, 1 Darkblast, 1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-3 Manipulate Fate, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Fierce Empath, 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, 2 Ponder

Round six:
Draw to top 8.

Quarterfinals:
Dredge
Game one he plays a turn one cabal to himself, I fow that since it indicated a weak draw to me.
He draws a red looting next turn, plays led, goes off.
Game two he does not know what I am playing, I never showed him anything other than strixes and agents game one. I play a turn one deathrite, turn two chain, he reads furiously. I fow his first loot effect and then play turn 3 empath, sac it and deathrite for 7 mana (deathrite taps for one) to hardcast Elesh Norn.
Game three is a repeat on game two: I fow their first play 90% of the time, I just feel we need TIME to win the game and hope they don’t have multiple loot effects in hand. Elesh Norn MVP.
2-1

SB: +2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, 1 Null Rod, 1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal, 1 Vendilion Clique (I don't want most of these cards, but they are better than abrupt and cut)
-4 Abrupt Decay, 1 Murderous Cut, 1 Sylvan Library

Semifinals:
UW Stoneblade
Game one I play manipulate and start playing one griff each turn. He plays verdict. I play Angler buying them back. Start playing one each turn. He plays snappy > verdict. I cut A Clique, delving back griffs, start playing one each turn. He gets down batterskull but is otherwise out of gas. I have drawn a Sylvan and see to many cards for him to handle. The first game takes like 1 hour.
Game two he takes in Meddling Mages and Disenchants which I anticipate. I have a great opening of turn on Deathrite, turn 2 Shardless into Sylvan. Turn Three he Cliques me on my draw, I have left one Chain on top and one in hand for such a trick. He takes my chain, I flip up the top card of the library and proceed to play a one Griffs and a Clique of my own. We do some light grinding, I get down all my griffs, and he attacks with batterskull, I block and exile one griff. He plays meddling mage on griffs (leaving one stranded in exile), passes turn with 12 life and a Karakas untapped. I attack with 2 griffs and Clique, he goes down to 3, I sac two griffs and tap 5 and hardcast Emrakul. Since he’s at three and has no flyers, the extra-turn trigger wins the game.
2-0

SB: +1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Dismember, 1 Disfigure
-2 Ponder, 1 Murderous Cut, 1 Baleful Strix, 1 Shardless Agent

Finals:
Aggroloam
This is a great matchup but my opponent wants the byes and I don’t care.
We do a splitt, I get more money and he gets the byes.

In retospect I'm not sure on 100% of all the plays I made and the boarding done, but I remember the best I can :)
Elesh Norn seems like agreat addition to the board and it will stay there. 7 mana is perfect! The theory is that you don't care if they blow the chain, since you get to 7 in one sweep.
Carpet of Flowers is a trap in my opinion and I'm glad that I cut it. The matchups which we bring in carpet are already favoured. I don't bother making winnable games more winnable but rather focus on our real problems.

[JackaBo]

Impressive results, Holmen! Results do speak for themselves. So 5 removals MD plus the 3 strixes and a whole 6 cards in sideboard to deal with creatures. Did any card dissappoint? Did you miss maelstrom pulse?
I do agree that carpet of flowers is probably bad in your deck with 20 lands already. In a deck with 17 lands it makes more sense. Also, the meta might not be blue enough to warrant the inclusion of carpet. What I like about carpet is that it acts like a Food chain light allowing you to cast ~7 cmc bombs, but that is not of much use unless you pack such cards in SB. I'm happy Norn played out well, I might try her out myself.

[Ltj999]

very awesome finish! Can you elaborate a little more on your build favoring the shardless route?

[Holmen]

JackaBo: Thanks! I think cut is a lot better than Pulse in my deck. The build is clunky, and tapping out turn 3 for a sorcery speed removal is too bad. I didn’t board in a lot of discard/counters due to lack of combo matches, so hard to evaluate those cards from saturday. As you see my board focus on beating decks with one mana creatures (goblins, elves, merfolk, dnt, infect etc) and fast combo. The other parts of the meta is beatable without much boarding. Good point on Carpet in a 17 land deck, that seems on point.

Ltj999; Thanks! Shardless is the bridge between combo and control for me. It makes the combo faster and more robust, while making our deck better as a control/value deck. The start: Deathrite > Shardless > Anything, opens the door for a turn 3 emrakul through chain+griff, or simply winning with value over many turns. To me, it creates lines of play which supports all end games. An awesome detail is that it works around Canonist, since it is an artifact. Game 2-3 against DnT etc get’s much better :) Last time I met esper blade, he discarded and surgicaled chain, and proceeded to meddling mage my griffs that were all in exile. I won that game on the back of Shardless beatdown together with strixes and Deathrites.

[Ltj999]

Thanks! Shardless is the bridge between combo and control for me. It makes the combo faster and more robust, while making our deck better as a control/value deck. The start: Deathrite > Shardless > Anything, opens the door for a turn 3 emrakul through chain+griff, or simply winning with value over many turns. To me, it creates lines of play which supports all end games. An awesome detail is that it works around Canonist, since it is an artifact. Game 2-3 against DnT etc get’s much better :) Last time I met esper blade, he discarded and surgicaled chain, and proceeded to meddling mage my griffs that were all in exile. I won that game on the back of Shardless beatdown together with strixes and Deathrites.

Hmmm thats a great idea. I too have felt as if the deck needed tying together of the pieces, and I was trying to do this through more ponders, but looks like shardless may actually be a better route to that end. Have been trying out a build that is kinda of in between Eli's low to the ground one and a more mid-range one. Been playing 18 lands with 3 ponders and only 2 discard with the full 4 decay and strix. But ill try out your build and see if it solves some of the problems I've been having with feeling like the deck has too many moving parts that need to be tied together.

[Holmen]

Feel free to try it out :)

I started placing good when I switched to Shardless in the beginning of last year. Important to know is that the combo is weak to removal. In the discardless build, we accept that. I often play Food Chain as a bait spell, or simply win by crippling opponents mana when they are holding up abrupt and you start playing Griffins instead. We are a bad combo deck but a great midrange deck, to switch that around is a mistake IMO. The mindset going into the match differs some is what I'm trying to say :)


Hmmm thats a great idea. I too have felt as if the deck needed tying together of the pieces, and I was trying to do this through more ponders, but looks like shardless may actually be a better route to that end. Have been trying out a build that is kinda of in between Eli's low to the ground one and a more mid-range one. Been playing 18 lands with 3 ponders and only 2 discard with the full 4 decay and strix. But ill try out your build and see if it solves some of the problems I've been having with feeling like the deck has too many moving parts that need to be tied together.

[maharis]

Hi, I played Food Chain tonight at my local.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Fierce Empath
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
3 Food Chain
1 Misdirection
1 Sylvan Library
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Painful Truths
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Shriekmaw
1 Dread of Night
1 Krosan Grip
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Tormod's Crypt

0-2 Mono-Red Sneak Attack -- game 2 I was going to win the turn after he activated Sneak as long as he had anything but emrakul but he did

2-0 UW standstill

2-1 TES

Deck seems under the radar, but in my meta which is usually high on D&T + Chalice decks I thought it seemed like it would be pretty good. Manipulate Fate is sweet. Never comboed off at all, I did Food Chain out 9 power worth of griffins a couple times. Picked up an Emrakul with my store credit, waiting for a 4th Chain but I'm not sure it's needed, I only had 3 and played Painful Truths instead of 4 and it seemed really good.

[movingtonewao]

play the fourth chain, trust me on this:
1) it makes it easier to sideboard
2) chain on the table makes your opponent play very differently even if you have nothing to follow up with
3) chain is removal magnet, multiples are seldom dead (decks with abrupt decay are just dying to decay your chain)

[Esper3k]

Food Chain also makes it very difficult for your opponents. Do they board to deal with Food Chain? Do they try and deal with our grind-them-out plan?

Unless they're playing something like fast combo, they usually have some tough decisions to make.

[movingtonewao]

Funny that you mention fast combo. I have never-ever-ever been sad to see myself with 2 food chains, except against fast combo, haha.

[maharis]

Funny that you mention fast combo. I have never-ever-ever been sad to see myself with 2 food chains, except against fast combo, haha.

Yeah my friend was playing TES and I won the roll, opening DRS, Griffin, Chain, Tidespout, three lands. "Well, they don't always win turn 1 or 2." Made 12 goblins turn 1, then drew Cabal Therapy on turn 2. What a game.

I'll put the 4th chain in when it arrives. Painful Truths is insane though, has anyone else tried it? Definitely want to keep it in. Wish it could be cascaded into.

[movingtonewao]

I've tried it, and lived the dream by paying 4 life to draw 4 against DnT. Its great in the long games, but horrible when there's pressure on your life total e.g. against burn

[Holmen]

It's good, but we rather play something more impactful turn 3. IF we can play it later, we have already won the game without it. I'm a firm believer of 0% fooling around and cool stuff, all our plays must impact the board too IMO. I was even against Dtt when it was legal :)

QUOTE=maharis;940592]Yeah my friend was playing TES and I won the roll, opening DRS, Griffin, Chain, Tidespout, three lands. "Well, they don't always win turn 1 or 2." Made 12 goblins turn 1, then drew Cabal Therapy on turn 2. What a game.

I'll put the 4th chain in when it arrives. Painful Truths is insane though, has anyone else tried it? Definitely want to keep it in. Wish it could be cascaded into.[/QUOTE]

[nevilshute]

I haven't been playing Food Chain for quite a while but am starting to put the deck back together. How are people handling the current meta? It seems to me that Eldrazi should be a decent matchup, all things considered. How are we handling delver du jour? And how are people valuating Tasigur vs Gurmag in that slot?

[Holmen]

Eldrazi and delver are both good MU. Go for angler, it trades with smasher and is unbouncable by Karakas. I think it's etablished for this deck, angler > tasigur.


I haven't been playing Food Chain for quite a while but am starting to put the deck back together. How are people handling the current meta? It seems to me that Eldrazi should be a decent matchup, all things considered. How are we handling delver du jour? And how are people valuating Tasigur vs Gurmag in that slot?

[Esper3k]

I think it depends on the Delver type. I believe BUG to be a good matchup, but RUG to be a tough one because of their mana denial + fast clock (Tarmogoyf gets huge in the matchup) as well as ability to put our Griffins in the graveyard. Post board REBs are also rough for us since they stop Baleful Strix, Manipulate Fate, and Griffins very efficiently.

[nevilshute]

I think it depends on the Delver type. I believe BUG to be a good matchup, but RUG to be a tough one because of their mana denial + fast clock (Tarmogoyf gets huge in the matchup) as well as ability to put our Griffins in the graveyard. Post board REBs are also rough for us since they stop Baleful Strix, Manipulate Fate, and Griffins very efficiently.

This has been my experience too. The RUG delver lists of old always felt very tough.

[jedi_gof]

Hi Martin

I was unable to find my 4 cabal ritual for thursdays legacy, so sleeved up FC as an emergency solution.
Went 4-0 and played for 5-0 but lost, but still split first.

Short recap:
R1: BUG Omnishow
Solid player who has been piloting omni for as long as I can remember so know what he is on. He mulls and I keep a with the full combo thinking that I will concede if he has a quick combo, and if not I have a fast route to victory. Hand is FC, FC, empath, Griff, land, land, something. He is on the play, and plays t1 ponder into turn 2 S&T. I have drawn a blank and have an interesting choice. Concede while he has me on jund(played catacombs - go) or drop FC, meaning that any 1 drop, a strix or a cantrip finding 2 onedrops is an out to a t2 kill. I decide to take my chance and drop the FC, and as expected his drop is an emmy. Luckily I am immediately rewarded by a DRS --> empath(tyrant)--> griff - win.

G2 he cantrips a bit while I have t1 drs, t2 no play into his t3 endstep clique. He bs in response, with an CoT and uncracked fetch as his lands, and then lets clique resolve. He shows me intuition, pierce, s&t, brainstorm, land, land. I ship the BS to the bottom. My turn I cabal naming pierce, sees that bs was replaced by another S&T, I thoughtseize to see if it prompts an intuition, he decides against it as it makes no difference. I take the int, attack with clique and flashback CT with clique -> he conceedes.

2-0 against a not fantastic MU. Good start

R2: 12 post. Not that exiting, but a solid 2-1 win. Not much to say other than 1 was one turn off the win g2, and g3 I get stuck a bit on lands, but play control and wins after a game that got longer than needed.
2-1, 2-0 for the night.

R3: Im paired against UR painter. This was over in like 10 minutes. I have plenty of FOWs and decays both games and are wary that I keep GB online at all times.
2-0, 6-1 / 3-0 for the night

R4: Lands
Although it is the forth straight combo game, I feel very comfortable against lands.
G2 he has the turn 3 Marit LARGE, and I misplay giving him a free win there. G3 is an longstrecthed affair with me on 3x DRS, a relic + a griff giving me infi blockers for his T4 Marit L. We have a grindfest, but slowly and surely My board and cantrips pull me ahead and I land the fourth straight win against combo.

2-1, 8-2 / 4-0 for the night

R5: High tide.
I sneak out a win G2, but the other 2 games all my cantrips are blanks and he gets to roam free. Also him winning the dieroll end up mattering as I had win online for T4, but he won his T4 g1.
Oh well, still 4-1 against combo decks is ok.
Today I dont think I would change a single MB card other than maybe cutting the 61st card and replacing tasigur with angler :-P

List is pictured in below link:
http://imgur.com/a/qCrZQ

[nevilshute]

Hey Jedi,

That sounds like a great run :smile: High Tide always felt like a pretty miserable matchup. Feels like it needs the white splash to make it somewhat bearable. But thankfully it's such a fringe deck.

I just bought back into this deck on mtgo and will likely be recording a league soonish :smile:

[maharis]

Well despite not having my 4th chain I decided this would be a good deck to play at a GPT for Columbus. The tournament was small, only 12 players, but I had some poor luck (including, yes, not being able to find a Food Chain when I needed one) and missed top 8.

R1 drew D&T, lost a 30-plus minute game 1 when I couldn't beat Jitte on Mirran Crusader, comboed game 2, we didn't even get to start game 3.

R2 lost to Eldrazi, he won die roll and had eye -> double mimic t1. Game 2 he had first turn Displacer, second turn TKS, third turn Reality Smasher.

R3 I beat Eldrazi by winning the die roll and comboing asap in games 1 and 3 but losing on the play game 2

R4 lost to Miracles, seemed like he knew the matchup pretty well and countered a Manipulate Fate which seems really important in the matchup just to be able to have regular pressure on. The second game I just needed to find a food chain and couldn't despite having active library. So yeah, needed 4.

Anyway, I got home from the tournament and the 4th chain was in my mailbox, so I'm going to rebuild and keep going. Feel like the R1 draw was poor luck, I had several turns to find an Abrupt Decay to either kill his Revoker on Chain or Jitte and just whiffed. Maybe worth going up to 4 of those too? (Though I think maelstrom pulse was also an out)

[movingtonewao]

Urgh, I hate crusader, they get past baleful strix and the only way to get rid of it is to block with a griffin. Be aware that in D&T its the equipment that kills, not the creatures, so i save my abrupt decays for that (i think this might be the correct play, instead of going for their aether vial).

Well if eldrazi get their nuts draw there is really nothing we can do but stare.

As for miracles, the guy seems to know what he was doing. No inexperienced miracles player would have countered a manipulate fate :P then again, I tend to use manipulate fate as bait for counterspell, so we can resolve a sylvan library, or a food chain subsequently. All in all, I hate losing to miracles, because I feel like I am doing the deck an injustice whenever I lose to miracles. Thankfully this doesn't happen often at all.

[maharis]

Urgh, I hate crusader, they get past baleful strix and the only way to get rid of it is to block with a griffin. Be aware that in D&T its the equipment that kills, not the creatures, so i save my abrupt decays for that (i think this might be the correct play, instead of going for their aether vial).

Well if eldrazi get their nuts draw there is really nothing we can do but stare.

As for miracles, the guy seems to know what he was doing. No inexperienced miracles player would have countered a manipulate fate :P then again, I tend to use manipulate fate as bait for counterspell, so we can resolve a sylvan library, or a food chain subsequently. All in all, I hate losing to miracles, because I feel like I am doing the deck an injustice whenever I lose to miracles. Thankfully this doesn't happen often at all.

Right. Luck was a big factor, as the D&T player ripped his Stoneforge, Mirran, and an extra Revoker as I was setting up Chain & Griffins and just needed to find a Fierce Empath or big guy to win. I was able to hold off for quite a while with Griffin/exile tricks but of course I found the Empath right after he revoked chain, ugh. Then I never found the Decay I needed for Revoker before he was able to punch through with Mirran enough times. Game 2 was all about resolving a Golgari Charm into his board and going nuts from there.

Miracles was funny, it went island go, Deathrite go, Swords go, Hymn you (Force) go, land go, Shardless into Manipulate Fate... his eyes got wide and he said "Wait a second... is this Food Chain?!?" and pierced the Fate immediately. Hard to lean on rogue factor in that match.

I cut the hymns and a land for 4th chain and 2 ponder after checking out jedi-gof's list. I did feel flooded so gonna slim down to 19. Only fear I have is that it opens it up to Chalice more. Any opinions?

[jedi_gof]

well, chalice is not that big of a deal for the deck, even with ponder. Yes it wrecks you on occasion. But you have 3-4 decays and x forces= more outs than he does chalices. And often you can play around it. not optimal but you can. 19 lands is max for me atm, as 5 dorks + xx cantrips (4 bs, 3 ponder, 3 mf, 3-4 strix, 2 s. agents) and I like the odds of playing 18-19 lands.

[movingtonewao]

land count really depends on your meta, playing 18 in a wasteland infested one is asking to be mugged in a quiet alleyway. Personally I never drop below 20 because I want to hit my land drops to bridge me to the midgame. If you really want to cut, make sure you have more ponders to smoothen draws.

[HSCK]

I'm actually more inclined to go up to 21 than to go down after testing.

[JackaBo]

Finally some results
After missing last weeks Legacy wednesday I returned with a 4-0 finninsh.

M1 versus post eldrazi
G1 I'm on the play and casts a turn 2 food chain off DRS. He plays T2 TKS and have nothing relevant to exile. Wins off recurring Griffins eventhough he hardcasts Newlamog.
I board in removals and take out FOW and duress (he runs Cavern of Souls)
G2 We both have slow hands. i turn 3 cliques him and sees emrakul + lands. I starts beatin down with Griffins and thoughtseizes emrakul when he's 2 mana from casting it.
2-0

M2 versus TES
G1 I know this guy is on storm so I keep a hand with IoK and FOW. I IoK his therapy to save my FOW. He Draws another therapy and goes off.
G2 and 3. i board in 9 cards: 2 grafdiggers cage, 2 null rods, 2 spell pierce, 2 carpet of flowers, 1 surgical extraction and plays successful control game. Carpet is nice in this matchup since it let's you both develop your board, sculpt your hand and leave mana for DRS and counters.
2-1

M3 versus Junk aggro loam with depths combo
G1 is really grindy. He makes marit and I chump blocks with Griffin and recur it with DRS. I'm honestly more scared of punnishing fire than marit lage. He has tabernacle to keep my mana busy and I have hard time developing a board and replaying the Griffin each turn. Evetually I get food chain online and can summon the Griffin's friends.
I board in some removals, needle and surgical (for pfire which he doesnt run at all) and take out discard.
G2 I keep a questionalbe hand and he develops his board with Knights and confidants too fast.
G3 he starts with chalice. I play manipulate fate then starts to summon Griffins one by one for the win.
2-1

M4 versus Maverick splashing black
G1 is also very grindy. I go for combo, he has decay. I eventually wins with Griffin beatdown.
I board in removals and misdirect and take out discard.
G2 i keep a hand with the full combo but I never draw removal for his Knight and never get a creature to stick
G3 I hold a Knight at bay with strix and manipulate fates into Griffin, Griffin, Griffin. Sometimes all you need is four lands and manipulate fate.
2-1

My current list

17 Creatures
4 DRS
4 Strix
3 Griffins
2 Empaths
2 Anglers
1 Emrakul
1 Clique

25 Spells
4 Food chain
4 BS
3 Ponder
3 Manipulate fate
3 Decay
4 FOW
1 thoughtseize
1 duress
1 IoK
1 therapy

18 Lands
4 Delta
3 Catacombs
2 Rainforests (will probably exchange one for a fourth catabcomb)
3 USea
2 Tropicals
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 forest

Sideboard
2 Carpet of flowers
2 Null rod
2 Grafidggers Cage
2 Spell pierce (might be replaced with flusterstorm or that new counterspell.. invasive something?)
1 Surgical extraction
1 Needle
1 Submerge
1 Diabloic edict (will probably be replaced with Murderous cut)
1 Golgari charm
1 Engineered plague
1 Misdirect

Regarding the lands discussion. I've taken Holmens advice and tries to go for turn 1 basic swamp every game (which is why I want a fourth catacomb rather than rainforest). I allows me to cast DRS or discard T1 and I am sure to keep my land for decay or strix turn 2. the real problem as I see it is wasteland + stifle but in those matchups I board in Carpet of Flowers. Those decks (RUG) seems to be on a decline right now also, so 18 lands seems fine for me. Worth noting is that my list has a lower mana curve than the lists running shardless instead of hand disruption.

[nevilshute]

Hey y'all, been playing Food Chain lately on MTGO. Recorded a league in case anyone is interested in watching:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4BlOQmVB4UwFdoXjB3v-HRB

[movingtonewao]

i like this youtube series please keep it going :)

[nevilshute]

i like this youtube series please keep it going :)

Many thanks :smile:

[Esper3k]

Bold :)

I hear Food Chain is tough to play online since doing (virtually) infinite loops takes forever to do?

[nevilshute]

Bold :)

I hear Food Chain is tough to play online since doing (virtually) infinite loops takes forever to do?

Yeah it's a major pain in the ass tbh. Playing Tyrant feels so bad since you could be going litterally infinite with Strix and clique but that is most definitely impossible on mtgo. Getting to 19 (emrakul + recast 1 griffin) takes like 2mins give or take. But I've been super close to timing out at least once already. And I can't say I begrudge an opponent not just conceding.

[Spam]

Hi Martin

I was unable to find my 4 cabal ritual for thursdays legacy, so sleeved up FC as an emergency solution.
Went 4-0 and played for 5-0 but lost, but still split first.

Short recap:
R1: BUG Omnishow
Solid player who has been piloting omni for as long as I can remember so know what he is on. He mulls and I keep a with the full combo thinking that I will concede if he has a quick combo, and if not I have a fast route to victory. Hand is FC, FC, empath, Griff, land, land, something. He is on the play, and plays t1 ponder into turn 2 S&T. I have drawn a blank and have an interesting choice. Concede while he has me on jund(played catacombs - go) or drop FC, meaning that any 1 drop, a strix or a cantrip finding 2 onedrops is an out to a t2 kill. I decide to take my chance and drop the FC, and as expected his drop is an emmy. Luckily I am immediately rewarded by a DRS --> empath(tyrant)--> griff - win.

G2 he cantrips a bit while I have t1 drs, t2 no play into his t3 endstep clique. He bs in response, with an CoT and uncracked fetch as his lands, and then lets clique resolve. He shows me intuition, pierce, s&t, brainstorm, land, land. I ship the BS to the bottom. My turn I cabal naming pierce, sees that bs was replaced by another S&T, I thoughtseize to see if it prompts an intuition, he decides against it as it makes no difference. I take the int, attack with clique and flashback CT with clique -> he conceedes.

2-0 against a not fantastic MU. Good start

R2: 12 post. Not that exiting, but a solid 2-1 win. Not much to say other than 1 was one turn off the win g2, and g3 I get stuck a bit on lands, but play control and wins after a game that got longer than needed.
2-1, 2-0 for the night.

R3: Im paired against UR painter. This was over in like 10 minutes. I have plenty of FOWs and decays both games and are wary that I keep GB online at all times.
2-0, 6-1 / 3-0 for the night

R4: Lands
Although it is the forth straight combo game, I feel very comfortable against lands.
G2 he has the turn 3 Marit LARGE, and I misplay giving him a free win there. G3 is an longstrecthed affair with me on 3x DRS, a relic + a griff giving me infi blockers for his T4 Marit L. We have a grindfest, but slowly and surely My board and cantrips pull me ahead and I land the fourth straight win against combo.

2-1, 8-2 / 4-0 for the night

R5: High tide.
I sneak out a win G2, but the other 2 games all my cantrips are blanks and he gets to roam free. Also him winning the dieroll end up mattering as I had win online for T4, but he won his T4 g1.
Oh well, still 4-1 against combo decks is ok.
Today I dont think I would change a single MB card other than maybe cutting the 61st card and replacing tasigur with angler :-P

List is pictured in below link:
http://imgur.com/a/qCrZQ
Your deck looks gorgeous Sir.

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

[nevilshute]

5-0'd my first Legacy League with Food Chain since picking up the deck again, and then 4-1'd the next league with the same list. Recorded the first one:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4B4WdrF0GrMfrH5HjAqgssS

I faced:

Shardless: W
Lands: W
Miracles: W
Belcher: W
Splinter Twin: W

Eldrazi: W
Grixis Delver: W
Deathblade: W
Eldrazi: W
ANT: L

[gigapatrick]

5-0'd my first Legacy League with Food Chain since picking up the deck again, and then 4-1'd the next league with the same list. Recorded the first one:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4B4WdrF0GrMfrH5HjAqgssS

I faced:

Shardless: W
Lands: W
Miracles: W
Belcher: W
Splinter Twin: W

Eldrazi: W
Grixis Delver: W
Deathblade: W
Eldrazi: W
ANT: L

Hey, nevilshute. Just played against you on Modo today. Recorded our bout and am putting it on youtube (along with all my other Lands videos). Just wanted to give you a heads up and say hello. Also, congrats on the 5-0 and 4-1 records.

[Gheizen64]

Nice videos but you over the games way too slowly imho. Ideally you shouldn't pause at all during a commentary.

[nevilshute]

Hey, nevilshute. Just played against you on Modo today. Recorded our bout and am putting it on youtube (along with all my other Lands videos). Just wanted to give you a heads up and say hello. Also, congrats on the 5-0 and 4-1 records.

Ugh, that last game was so ugly... stupid Leylines making me play badly! Nah, in all seriousness, were some fun games. Will have a look :smile:


Nice videos but you over the games way too slowly imho. Ideally you shouldn't pause at all during a commentary.

I guess you mean I should hold fewer pauses for less "dead air"? I will try to think about that while recording. Thanks for watching :smile:

[gigapatrick]

Ugh, that last game was so ugly... stupid Leylines making me play badly! Nah, in all seriousness, were some fun games. Will have a look.

Here's a link to the vid if you're interested:

Lands Vs. Food Chain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQgzYzthmak)

I haven't actually made it public yet (since I want to record all five League matches before I do so), but this is a special situation. Also, none of my comments are meant to offend (and I don't think any are offensive), but if offense is taken, I apologize in advance. In any case, gg.

[movingtonewao]

the video is private, could you make it public

[gigapatrick]

the video is private, could you make it public

Sure, I'm on it.

Edit: Done.

[nevilshute]

Sure, I'm on it.

Edit: Done.

Nice video. Ugh, that game 3 was so bad. I fully agree with your assessment on Leylines. That's how I feel whenever someone brings in the white leyline vs me when I play storm. Guess I just got carried away hehe. I think it's a pretty fun matchup that probably favors you but not my a large margin.

[movingtonewao]

as patrick put it "we'll see if he has it. if he has it, he has it, and if he has it, theres very little we can do about it"

I'm actually pretty happy if i had to go up against lands. we have enough of an airforce that their 20/20 isn't an auto win and we can throw blockers at it to buy time.

Also, they can't interact with our combo at all.

[maharis]

Nevilshute got a shoutout on channel fireball today

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-legacy-food-chain/

[Esper3k]

Nevilshute got a shoutout on channel fireball today

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-legacy-food-chain/

Nice!

[movingtonewao]

"This is definitely one of the more bizarre combo decks in all of Magic, but it has put up some great results around the world and online! It's definitely worth giving this deck a try if you like some wacky mana combos!"

except that its not a combo deck, its a midrange deck with a combo finish.

[Esper3k]

"This is definitely one of the more bizarre combo decks in all of Magic, but it has put up some great results around the world and online! It's definitely worth giving this deck a try if you like some wacky mana combos!"

except that its not a combo deck, its a midrange deck with a combo finish.

Shh, don't tell people that!

[JackaBo]

Hehe it sounded like even the writer didn't know any of the nice little synergies in the deck, such as anglers gives you griffins back and that griffins + food chain usually is a win on itself. Everyone just emphasizes on the infinite mana :P
Which is very nice. The more canonists, krosan grips and pithing needles (!!!) my opponent sideboards in, the happier I am.

Last wednesday did go well for me: 3-1 - same list as last week.

Game 1 versus same BWG aggro loam deck with dark depth, but with different pilot (he had borrowed it).
I comboed on T4 game 1 and half-comboT5 in game 2.
2-0

Game 2 versus TES ( with the pilot who usually plays the deck above, I believe he was quite inexperienced playing storm).
G1 I didn't see neither discard nor FOW but I put up a fast clock and forced him to go off prematurely which forced him to go for tendrils with 4 storm.
G2 I had most of my combo out and anti-combo-pieces in. He mulled to 6 and kept a bad hand,then kept drawing lands. I spell pierced an Ad Nasueam and that was that.
2-0

Game 3 versus Grixis Control. I lost game 1 from a fast Jace with me only having strixes to preasure it.
Game 2 I sideboarded terribly. Took out the strixes since he didn't run many threats and in with spell pierce to take the fight over food chain. Then looking at my starting hand I remembered an article on how to think about different match-ups and the golden question "who is the beat down?" - well I guess that's me! And I just took out 4 of my 17 creatures. That made me think that I should have creatures in SB, not only spells,for these kinds of game. Made me also think about shardless agent again. Anyway,the guy was obviously on top of his game. The deck was all pimped out and he had answers to whatever I played.
0-2

Game 4 versus Reaminator.
G1 I accidentally had IoK and Therapy plus a DRS. I lead with T1 IoK and took his Careful Study. Next turn I took exhume and after that DRS was on exiling creature duty. He found his one-off mainboard Show and tell and put Griselbrand into play but I had Strix to block and he was too low on life to draw cards. He scoops when I force his hardcast (!) Elesh Nord
Game 2 I took out 3 decay and 4 food chains to board in 2 spell pierce, 1 misdirect (I anticipated that he would board in decay), 2 grafidggers cage, 1 surgical extraction and 1 diabolic edict. I kept Empath and Emrakul in since I anticipated he would run four show and tell off the board. My guess was right, first show and tell I spell pierced, the second I forced. Next he goes for entomb for griselbrand into exhume, I respond with extraction. Eventually he cheats a Tidespout into play which I have Edict for. Guess that was a very frustrating game for him.
2-0

So the immediate changes I'm going to do is switching one misty for a fourth catacomb and switch Edict in SB to Murderous Cut. I'm also considering switching one grafidggers cage for relic of progentius to give me a upper hand in DRS stand-offs, which happens quite frequently. Grafdiggers is supposed to work double duty versus both GY decks and Elves but my local Elves player seems to board out NO in G2. I also am thinking about taking out one of my two Anglers and replacing him with either Tasigur or a one off Shardless agent. Or is that weird?

[movingtonewao]

I like to keep the anglers in. I never really managed to get tasigur activations out of tasigur so I cut him and played anglers exclusively.

[nevilshute]

I like to keep the anglers in. I never really managed to get tasigur activations out of tasigur so I cut him and played anglers exclusively.

The facts that angler:

-trades with reality smasher
-kills a 4/5 goyf
-kills tasigur
-isn't sad-faced by karakas

seem to outweigh the occasional use of tasigur's activation and the extra mana.

I'm on 2 anglers up from 1. The 2nd angler used to be a murderous cut but having angler more often feels right. Still considering trying a 1/1 spilt of angler/tasigur but yeah... Not sure. Double angler might just be better.

[JackaBo]

The facts that angler:

-trades with reality smasher
-kills a 4/5 goyf
-kills tasigur
-isn't sad-faced by karakas

seem to outweigh the occasional use of tasigur's activation and the extra mana.

I'm on 2 anglers up from 1. The 2nd angler used to be a murderous cut but having angler more often feels right. Still considering trying a 1/1 spilt of angler/tasigur but yeah... Not sure. Double angler might just be better.

You've persuaded me. I'll keep the double Angler. I guess including an agent will have to wait for now. Might add a ScOoz to SB to double duty as GY hoser and extra body versus certain decks.

[movingtonewao]

I'm not trying to say that anglers are *strictly* better, but in the current meta I believe it is the correct choice, if only to be able to trade with reality smashers.

Situations where Tasigur is better are when your opponent:
a) doesn't have karakas
b) doesn't have angler
c) doesn't have smasher
d) plays a grindy deck to give you time to jizzvalue out of the ability

And right now it is hard to meet these requirements.

I used to play a 1-1 split, but recently I've been feeling that a vanilla 5/5 turning sideways gets the job done more directly and cleanly (pending another metagame shift).

[JackaBo]

I'm not trying to say that anglers are *strictly* better, but in the current meta I believe it is the correct choice, if only to be able to trade with reality smashers.

Situations where Tasigur is better are when your opponent:
a) doesn't have karakas
b) doesn't have angler
c) doesn't have smasher
d) plays a grindy deck to give you time to jizzvalue out of the ability

And right now it is hard to meet these requirements.

I used to play a 1-1 split, but recently I've been feeling that a vanilla 5/5 turning sideways gets the job done more directly and cleanly (pending another metagame shift).

Yeah, few things are strictly better in Legacy. But you've sold Angler pretty well, especially with Smashers in the metagame. I'm stickning with double Anglers.

[nevilshute]

Question: does anyone have any experience running 3 delve spells? I'm happy with double Angler but would potentially like to also fit in a Murderous Cut. But I'm unsure if our GY can support 3 delve spells. Thoughts?

[Technics]

Question: does anyone have any experience running 3 delve spells? I'm happy with double Angler but would potentially like to also fit in a Murderous Cut. But I'm unsure if our GY can support 3 delve spells. Thoughts?

I have been running 2 Tombstalker maindeck and a Cut in the board. It can be a bit tight when playing against other DRS decks but otherwise it usually fine.

[nevilshute]

I have been running 2 Tombstalker maindeck and a Cut in the board. It can be a bit tight when playing against other DRS decks but otherwise it usually fine.

Yeah, I primarily am looking for cut vs shardless tbh.

[Technics]

Yeah, I primarily am looking for cut vs shardless tbh.

I am 1000% for Tombstalker over Angler. Having all our threats fly is such a huge boon.

[movingtonewao]

double black can be a tough ask when you face wastelands and ports. it really depends on your meta but saying "1000%" is taking it a bit far.

[nevilshute]

I guess people are running differing mana bases but yeah, I have a hard time picturing BB being viable with the setup I'm currently running. I have hymns in the SB but a) those primarily come in vs non-wasteland decks like miracles and combo and b) they can cascaded into. So yeah, while I certainly don't want to play down the awesomeness of Tombstalker I'm happy with Angler currently.

[movingtonewao]

I run a singleton hymn in the sb. it used to be 4 thoughtseize between MD and sb but ive switched it up to 3+1. I don't want to rely on DRS too much for double black, there are enough decks in my meta that pressure my manabase and I don't want to give them a further leg up.

[nevilshute]

Recorded a new league to a 4-1 score: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4DHuB-JAFSLGT28BzHHOBNt

[twndomn]

I am not certain Shardless Agent is a must in Food Chain, as seen in this version:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19992&iddeck=152255

[JackaBo]

I am not certain Shardless Agent is a must in Food Chain, as seen in this version:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19992&iddeck=152255

Yeah, there's two schools so to say. The decks who run shardless and the ones who run discard. Depends on preference and meta. Shardless is great vs fair decks and discard is great vs unfair.

Todays wednesday legacy went bad for me 1-2-1

0-2 vs storm (same guy I beat 2-0 on storm last wednesdday :P)
1-1 vs Maverick. Games got grindy and I needed like 2 more turns to win when time was out.
0-2 vs reanimator (which I also beat 2-0 last week)
2-0 versus UR delver

I don't think I made many mistakes, things didn't just go my way this day. Murderous cut was the new addition to my board, and it was great. Engineered plague was stranded in my hand versus Maverick and wouldnt have made a huge difference. Thinking about darkblast or a second golgari charm. Speaking of golgari, it saved me versus UR delver. I had it in hand and he had a grim lavamancer in play. I thought I'd wait untilhis end of turn incase he's play a delver and I would get two for one :) Instead he plays blood moon and the other mode of golgari charm saved me.

[Alka]

Just finished putting this deck together on MTGO and have played 5 games so far going 4-1. Loss was to U/R Delver which came out too fast. I’ve played a mix of games with and without Shardless Agent and I’ve had a couple of cool wins.

Cool Win #1
I had everything in place to go off except a Misthollow Griffin, my opponent attacks me with an Ulamag, the Ceaseless Hunger and hands me the Griffin.

Cool Win #2
I was at one life after being hit by a flipped Delver with my board being Deathrite Shaman, Food Chain and 6 lands. My opponent had 2 cards in hand and I had one card in hand which was Fierce Empath. I draw Griffin and cast it which gets countered by Force of Will. I then use my Deathrite to exile it. Sac Deathrite to Food Chain and use my last land to cast Empath getting Emrakul. Sac Empath to Food Chain to cast Griffin from exile and then go off.

Really liking the deck so far...Of course I liked the deck as soon as I saw it, but now I get to play with it.

[movingtonewao]

i've had #1 come up before. it feels pretty good i must say. Thank you sir.

[nevilshute]

*this has yet to pan out for me yet, but...

Having my opponent ultimate Jace while I have a Food Chain in play, exiling 3 griffins and making my 3-4 cards my new library. It has happened twice for me lately, but sadly, in both cases my opponent had either an online CB with a jace floating on top, or just had 2 counterspells/force of wills in hand and I wasn't able to win. But it does seem like a fun and quirky interaction.

[maharis]

4-0 at a local last night. Pretty stock list with couple notes: No delve creature, 2 Hymn main, 2 Ponder, Tidespout and Emrakul. 19 lands. I haven't liked having a delve creature, doesn't seem high impact enough for the slot. usually if I'm grinding I find Griffins to be enough beef. I played the Hymns because there was a lot of combo in the room and wanted a little extra for that. Played a bunch of regulars so no matchups were surprises, which also helped a lot.

Rd. 1 Mono Red Sneak. Lose die roll, but have an island in hand, figure I can piece stuff together if he has a turn 1 moon, I'm wrong. Game 2 I am on the play with counters and basics so I just counter his business and win. Game 3 I have to soak up a breached Emrakul that leaves me at 2 with only a Food Chain and Griffin. Maybe I'll rip Empath and win. I just rip Griffin 2 which is enough to close things out.

Rd. 2 Doomsday. He tries to force the combo early in game 1 after a therapy on Force reveals that I can win immediately the next turn if I draw an Empath or big guy, doesn't get there. Boards into Mentor plan game 2 which is super good against my hand of lots of counterspells, but I manage to eke it out by killing the Mentor and balancing attacks with Deathrite lifegain.

Rd. 3 TES. Mull to Force game 1, he tries turn 1, I force Burning Wish. Game 2 we both have slow hands and I'm able to draw into Force and he doesn't have discard.

Rd. 4 Esper Mentor, no countertop. Game 1 he's land-screwed, I pull way ahead with value creatures. Game 2 I have double deathrite plus force for anything threatening and end up winning with the super rub in (make infinite mana, empath into tidespout, bounce his board, bounce empath, get emrakul).

Deck was clutch at certain points for sure, but I like this arrangement. Still like having Sylvan main but Hymn is super strong. Thinking about hitting a 1k on Saturday with the deck.

[Captain Hammer]

If you really wanted to play a version incorporating Natural Order, what's a list you would recommend?

[movingtonewao]

If you really really want to play natural order? here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=939776&viewfull=1#post939776) you go.

I would not recommend natural order in a food chain shell, as we are further diluting our game plan for a card that doesn't help our crap matchups and can be a horrible topdeck a lot of the time, opening yourself up to 2 for 1s, etc.

[movingtonewao]

If you really really want to play natural order? here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=939776&viewfull=1#post939776) you go.

I would not recommend natural order in a food chain shell, as we are further diluting our game plan for a card that doesn't help our crap matchups and can be a horrible topdeck a lot of the time, opening yourself up to 2 for 1s, etc.

EDIT: i didn't mean this in a condescending way, more as a joke. But I do feel strongly against natural order in food chain.

[Captain Hammer]

It's clearly no where near as bad in this deck as you make it sound. Gives the deck an alternative means to win if Food Chain isn't drawn, or if Food Chain gets countered.

It lets you dodge Phyrexian Revoker naming Food Chain.

Plus it fits like a glove in with the high creature count employed by the rest of the deck. From the OP itself...
Martin Bosco - TLA - 2013 - Legacy - Jouernaut. First place finish out of 497 (27.10.2013) http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12104

1x Dryad Arbor
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Mulldrifter
2x Progenitus
3x Misthollow Griffin
4x Fierce Empath
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Manipulate Fate
4x Natural Order
4x Food Chain
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Forest
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Windswept Heath
4x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island

Sideboard:
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Relic of Progenitus
4x Show and Tell
1x Griselbrand
2x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Omniscience

I'm guessing getting 1st out of 497 is better than any of us have ever done with the deck. In fact, I believe getting 1st place out of 497 people is the best placement this deck has ever achieved.

This deck has no way to tutor up Food Chain. Incorporating NO into the deck significantly improves the probability of comboing out with something by turn 4/5 even if your Food Chain gets countered or discarded, or doesn't get drawn in the first place. Natural Order is actually almost always a great topdeck. If you haven't been able to combo off with Food Chain for whatever reason, top decking a Natural Order means you get to combo out anyways, albeit a turn slower.

I am not saying that the NO version is superior, just that it has it's own merits as well, it's own strengths and weaknesses. Yes, the NO version is more combo oriented than control oriented, but that has it's own strengths and weaknesses as well.

I was just curious if there have been any recent developments that could be used to make the NO version stronger.

I am considering taking the below list to a local tourney.

1x Dryad Arbor
2x Misdirection
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Progenitus
1x Tidespout Tyrant
4x Misthollow Griffin
2x Fierce Empath
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Coiling Oracle
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Manipulate Fate
4x Natural Order
4x Food Chain
1x Bayou
1x Forest
2x Ancient Tomb
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Windswept Heath
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island

If you can take the list for a spin on Cocktrice, I suggest doing so. It runs very smoothly. But any suggestions to refine it further would be much appreciated.

It's been an absolute blast to play, which is the main appeal of this deck for me. Natural Order is a one card combo that comes in and sweeps up games once your opponents deplete all their counters to prevent Food Chain. MisD is great at protecting it. And including the NO combo only takes up 5 slots in the deck at most.

Progenitus while a turn slower, is much more resilient than Emrakul and Tidespout. There's very few cards that can take out Progenitus.

[Esper3k]

I feel like you want at least 1 land that can produce black mana. Maybe a Bayou instead of one of the basic Islands?

[Captain Hammer]

Thanks for the suggestion. It's never really come up for me but I went ahead and added that to try just in case.

[Obould]

If you really wanted to play a version incorporating Natural Order, what's a list you would recommend?

I used to play natural order version some years ago. I run 2 ancient tombs to get more turn 2 natural orders and show and tells after sideboard. My list is in the first page of this thread. Now I have also moved to more grindier BUG-version and going to play it tomorrow in a local GPTrial Prague. Lets see how it goes because I haven't played "serious" legacy for over a year.

[Captain Hammer]

Ancient Tomb is an awesome suggestion. Thanks. I added 2 to my list above and will try it out.

Every NO list I've seen opts to run 3 Misthollow Griffin instead of 4. Anyone know why? Wondering if I should do the same.

[Captain Hammer]

Why not try and just shove NOPro, Show and Tell, and Food Griffin all in? Make it so that every spell is a must counter/kill or be killed. This gives you three different ways to drop a giant monster onto the battlefield.

- They have to remove any of your green creatures or risk a NO.
- They must counter the Empaths or risk you getting a creature in hand for Show and Tell.
- They almost certainly have to counter Show and Tell. They have to nuke your Food Chain or risk you getting mana to cast your creature.
- And if all of that fails, you can beat face with Griffins.

Note: I prefer 2 Misdirection to 2 Daze since you can redirect their counters to the Misd. or deal with Abrupt Decays targeting your stuff.


3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fierce Empath
1 Griselbrand
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
2 Misdirection
4 Natural Order
4 Show and Tell
4 Food Chain
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs


Conditioning my opponent to counter or kill Fierce Empath is pretty amusing.

I just saw this list and find it very amusing. I know it's not optimized (it definitely needs a couple of Ancient Tombs maindeck for example) but has anyone pursued this route?

It makes more sense now than it ever did when this deck first emerged. When this deck first showed up, Reanimator and Sneak and Show were two of the most popular decks. Now, both deck barely see any play and even Turbo Eldrazi is seeing less and less play. Might be the perfect time for us to bring in maindeck Show and Tells and Natural Orders.

[JackaBo]

I just saw this list and find it very amusing. I know it's not optimized (it definitely needs a couple of Ancient Tombs maindeck for example) but has anyone pursued this route?

It makes more sense now than it ever did when this deck first emerged. When this deck first showed up, Reanimator and Sneak and Show were two of the most popular decks. Now, both deck barely see any play and even Turbo Eldrazi is seeing less and less play. Might be the perfect time for us to bring in maindeck Show and Tells and Natural Orders.

My first instinct was to be sarcastic about the the No-list, but you say it very well in your first post, that the list is a blast to play and that's what matters... and I agree that it's all that matters, so I will try to give some constructive feedback.
There are more or less combo-y approaches to the deck and I think the consensus is that Food chain is as best as a grindy midrange deck with a combo threat. If you want to emphasize the combo part you'd either want to run counters or discard to force your combo through and more cantrips to find the pieces (like Eli Kassis from list from SCG New Jersey which I run). Or you'd want to add more pieces to the combo, which is what you are suggesting. So in that case NO is worth consideration, of course. To me the power of the food chain combo is that it's so hard to "hate out" and in that sense NO is much worse: As Movingtonewao says, there's a risk of 1 for 2:ing yourself with NO. I mean, even Elves seem to move away from NO with the new Chaos Elves lists. Another problem with NO is that you run 6-10 green creatures in the usual lists, so to increase the green count you'd need to change the creature base to the worse, like coiling oracle instead of strix. A third problem with NO is that it doesn't fetch any of the usual three fattys that food chain run so you'd have to add progentius, which in truth isn't all that impressive (compared to the others). None of the decks that cheat creatures into play choose Progentitus, not even elves (at least in maindeck). So in my mind,if you could add NO and take away 4 ponders, I would consider it. As I see it now you'd had to deviate to much from the current stocklist, which is the most successful right now (I don't think pointing to a list from 2012 is all that useful).

Regarding some of the other discussion around the NO build, 3 griffins is standard in a combo-y version of food chain since that's what manipulate fate fetches for you. With three griffins in exile topdecking a fourth is bad if all you wanna do is combo off. Some decks are more grindy and want to win with griffins beatdown and thus likes the fourth griffin. With a more combo-y approach and spells that cost 2G (chain and empath), 2GG(NO) and 2UU (griffin) ancient tomb seems like a solid addition. And if you gonna go all in combo in green and blue I concur that you might as well throw show and tell in the mix. That way you can have a handful of fattys that fits both the NO, food chain and S'n'T path.

[Captain Hammer]

Thank you for the constructive response JackaBo.

So in regards to a Show & Tell + Natural Order + Food Chain build, do you think something like this makes the most sense?


1x Misdirection
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Progenitus
1x Griselbrand
1x Emrakul, Aeons Torn
3x Misthollow Griffin
4x Fierce Empath
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Manipulate Fate
4x Show and Tell
4x Natural Order
4x Food Chain
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Ancient Tomb
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Windswept Heath
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island

Or is there anything you would change?

[maharis]

got run out of the 1k today dropping six straight games to DGA/Rock, BUG delver, and UR delver. Ultimate insult was mulling to 5 vs UR, but finding a hand with two castable strix, and them him casually playing his maindeck Dack Fayden on turn 3.

I've played four tournaments with this deck and gone 2-1, 1-2-1, 4-0, and 0-3... I think I'm going to take a break for a while.

[JackaBo]

got run out of the 1k today dropping six straight games to DGA/Rock, BUG delver, and UR delver. Ultimate insult was mulling to 5 vs UR, but finding a hand with two castable strix, and them him casually playing his maindeck Dack Fayden on turn 3.

I've played four tournaments with this deck and gone 2-1, 1-2-1, 4-0, and 0-3... I think I'm going to take a break for a while.

Sorry to hear. We sure have a bit of problems with planeswalkers, maybe more flash in creatures? Would snapcaster mage warrant a spot or two? its sure consistent with the value plan although it interferes with delve-guys and DRS to some extent.

On another note it feels like the metagame surely but slowly shifts in our favour. Don't know for how much it counts but both elves and ANT has been degraded to established deck here on the Source. Eldrazi isn't a terrible matchup and if the storm decks are getting fewer we can dedicate more sideboard versus creatures (as in eldrazi stompy and the decks who have a good game versus them: show and tell, reanimator and infect). That lands have a great matchup versus eldrazi and miracles a decent matchup is all good news. Do you guys also feel good about the metagame right now?

[Holmen]

The big problem with the deck is that it is clunky. By playing all the packages, your starting hands will be less resilient and more clunky.
We play 3 griffs for the same reason, max for Manipulate Fate but not jamming up our starting hands.

I've played a lot of builds with both SnT and NO, and have discarded them as possible sideboard routes. Main deck we tend to get unplayable starting hands.
Progenitus is also a far inferior choice next to Emrakul and Tidespout, and playing more than one of them is harsh.

Food Chain is BAD as a pure combo deck – trying to make it one is the issue. Its hard to settle when there is potential, I get that. :)
The reason why none is playing Mulldrifter anymore is an acknowledgement of just that – that the deck doesn't play cards that are good within the combo and bad outside of it.

If I would play your deck, I would do the following (sketches):

-4 SNT
- All fetches that doesn't get Dryad Arbor (2Tarn)
- 2 Empath
-1 Misd (you almost always regret drawing this)
-1 Mana Dork

+4 Coiling Oracle
+ 2 Shardless Agent
+ 2 Green Fetches
+ 1 Sylvan Library
+ Gurmag Angler / Hooting Mandrills

The Oracle/Shardless improves both Food Chain and NO, making the deck more resilient.
Angler or Mandril is good with chain, getting to Griselbrand, and is also a buyback of griffins in the grave.
Library is good with the NoPro plan, and also grind games.


Thank you for the constructive response JackaBo.

So in regards to a Show & Tell + Natural Order + Food Chain build, do you think something like this makes the most sense?


1x Misdirection
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Progenitus
1x Griselbrand
1x Emrakul, Aeons Torn
3x Misthollow Griffin
4x Fierce Empath
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Manipulate Fate
4x Show and Tell
4x Natural Order
4x Food Chain
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Ancient Tomb
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Windswept Heath
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island

Or is there anything you would change?

[maharis]

This deck can be clunky overall, like if you have a food chain but can't find your action, or you (like me) draw two empath in a row when you're looking for removal. Jamming so many combos may just help you luck into it but I can't imagine it's going to be more consistent.

Honestly I think jackabo might have a point about Snapcaster, so many times we just need that extra decay to stay alive or to cantrip again to find the second half of the combo. Could maybe go down to 2 Manipulate Fates or something.

[movingtonewao]

snapcaster is not the worst card in this deck, I've had it before as a 1 of so I am speaking from experience, and its nice to flashback a brainstorm/ponder/fate/AD. However I just couldn't find the space for it anymore, and somehow mana always seems tight for me regardless of how I configure the manabase.

[JackaBo]

snapcaster is not the worst card in this deck, I've had it before as a 1 of so I am speaking from experience, and its nice to flashback a brainstorm/ponder/fate/AD. However I just couldn't find the space for it anymore, and somehow mana always seems tight for me regardless of how I configure the manabase.

I guess it would be in the shardless spot since it sort of does the same thing and you dont want to cascade into snappy with no mana for the flashback. With snapcasters in the deck i feel that more thing in the sideboard should be spells rather than permanents. I might try this out if i get can get my hands on a pair of snapcasters

[JackaBo]

Short report from last wednesday:

Match 1 I face a player I've never played before. G1 I mull to 6 and keeps a hand with 1 land and 2 DRS. After I've scryed he puts a leyline of the void into play which nulllfies my DRS.He wins off Leyline + Helm combo off Sol lands and Big Tezz.
Game 2 I land an early food chain but never sees any griffins and dies to helm of obedience again. Cool deck!
0-2

Match 2 I face Oliver, who I know are on Burning ANT.
G1 I dont recall my keep but I assemble a fast combo and wins with Spagetti beatdown.
G2 I go T1 DRS into T2 clique and sees rituals and tendrils. I put tendrils on bottom and eventually wins with griffins. Oliver afterward tells me he thinks I should have let him keep tendrils since he only had about 5 storm count. We end up discussing sideboard strategy since the games played out pretty fast.
2-0

Match 3 I play against Sixten, who I also know play ANT.
G1 I blindly cabal therapy away 2 dark rituals, but still looses to tendrils a few turns later. I deploy my new sideboarding strategy: Out with 3 decay, 4 strix and 2 basic lands: In with 2 carpet of flowers, 2 null ord, 2 grafidiggers cage, 2 spell pierce and 1 surgical extraction.
G2 He plays tutor revealing dark ritual on turn 2. Turn three he starts going off playing the two rituals. With the second ritual on the stack I surgical extract the tutor in his grave and his hand becomes useless.
G3 He's boarded in Dark Confidant and draws a bunch of cards since I can't remove it. I land down Null rod and Grafdiggers cage but he'sgot such a card advantage that playing the mana rocks is enough when he goes off.
1-2

Match 3 I play against a player I haven't faced before - turns out he's on ANT as well.
G1 He tries to go off without protection,I fow his tutor and that's it.
I deploy the sideboarding plan again but cant stop him from going off G2
G3 He starts going off with a cabal therapy clearing the way, but in respons to the tutor I brainstorm (the storm count is high enough anyway) and draws a FOW!
2-1

So storm is definitely not dead (in paper magic anyway). The maindeck discard still feels relevant, but my sideboarding plan is a little iffy. Null rod is cool versus storm but grafdiggers cage (which is really versus reanimator and dredge) does feel a little weak. It hinders PiF but that's it. Maybe another surgical extraction is better?
Boarding out basics and in with Carpet of Flowers feels really nice. I'm not really sure about keeping the combo or not, how do you guys go about it? I feel like the strixes are too bad beaters to be relevant and I'd rather have the chance of instawin versus combo than shipping away 1 life each turn.

[movingtonewao]

i tend to board out strixes and sylvan library, as they seem the least impactful in a storm matchup. I would board out some manipulate fate if you have more sideboard cards to bring in.

[DireLemming]

Library is surprisingly good in the storm matchup as it reads: "upkeep: draw 2" and after boarding they tend to be slower as they play more defensively.

[JackaBo]

i tend to board out strixes and sylvan library, as they seem the least impactful in a storm matchup. I would board out some manipulate fate if you have more sideboard cards to bring in.

Then we're on the same page. I don't feel like i can board out fate though, as its the best way for me to assemble a clock (since I don't run agents). And since I'm keeping the combo in, fate is crucial.

[Holmen]

Against most combo, it's effective to go for the angler-win. Deploy a fast angler and keep them off winning with fluster storms and discard. It's nice that we can stop being a combo deck and start being a control deck when needed.

QUOTE=JackaBo;946570]Then we're on the same page. I don't feel like i can board out fate though, as its the best way for me to assemble a clock (since I don't run agents). And since I'm keeping the combo in, fate is crucial.[/QUOTE]

[jake556]

Jumped on the Food Chain Train on MODO.. Deck has been a blast so far, wonder if Food Chain is on the radar for a EM reprint? Was really surprised by the cost, I guess everything from Masques is expensive on MODO though.

[JackaBo]

Against most combo, it's effective to go for the angler-win. Deploy a fast angler and keep them off winning with fluster storms and discard. It's nice that we can stop being a combo deck and start being a control deck when needed.

QUOTE=JackaBo;946570]Then we're on the same page. I don't feel like i can board out fate though, as its the best way for me to assemble a clock (since I don't run agents). And since I'm keeping the combo in, fate is crucial.[/QUOTE]


Yup, Angler is the best beater. But my sideboard plan alllowes for the combo to stay in, so it stays.
I take out 4 strix, 3 decay and 2 basics and put in 2 carpets, 2 counters, 2 null rods, 2 grafdiggers and 1 surgical.
Faced storm again yesterday and won 2-1. G1 i comboed on T3 :) Game 2 i dustupted him with clique in respons to LED but he topdecked PiF the next turn. G3 i won with combo thanks to carpet allowing me to cast another foodchain as he decayed my first. Matchup feels good to me.

[jake556]

Sylvan Library has been quit impressive for me. Seems like a must have 100%, draw step... draw 2 :) Only running one at the moment but it has been nice every time I draw it.

[Ricardio]

I have the cards for this and I am excited to play it but before I sleeve it up, some questions for you vets:


What element other than value does shardless add to the deck? (seems like it doesn't help the combo outside of hitting MF)

What happen to genesis hydra combo finish? (its cute and I love explaining it)

Where did the maindeck misdirection go? (I assume meta call)

Is the flying on tombstalker not worth the second B? (this seems the most obvious, Angler > Tasi)

Why no JTMS in the side for slower, grindy matchups? (I have them and wish to play them)


Sorry, I didn't want to make changes based solely off preference. I read the last 5 pages but I still had questions even after.
I understand this is a Bug midrange deck that gets value off MhG as well as wins from nowhere.

[Snazzycool]

Hey everyone! I recently picked up the last couple of cards I needed to play Food Chain. I got to play in a few challenge events at GP Hindenburg this weekend. I was really impressed with the deck and thoroughly enjoyed playing it.

I'm curious how the Lands matchup is, because there are a couple of people at my local store who play that deck. I'm seeing cards like Pithing Needle in the sideboard of a lot of decks, which seems reasonable, and obviously Relics/Spellbombs are good, but I'm not really getting what we're supposed to be focused on in the matchup. The combo is pretty slow and vulnerable to disruption they already want to bring in. Any thoughts?

[Esper3k]

Hey everyone! I recently picked up the last couple of cards I needed to play Food Chain. I got to play in a few challenge events at GP Hindenburg this weekend. I was really impressed with the deck and thoroughly enjoyed playing it.

I'm curious how the Lands matchup is, because there are a couple of people at my local store who play that deck. I'm seeing cards like Pithing Needle in the sideboard of a lot of decks, which seems reasonable, and obviously Relics/Spellbombs are good, but I'm not really getting what we're supposed to be focused on in the matchup. The combo is pretty slow and vulnerable to disruption they already want to bring in. Any thoughts?

If you have Needle, you probably just want to name Wasteland with it. If you have the Tidespout finish, I'm not certain they have much of an answer to that once you get going.

[MuzzleMuffin]

Hello. I was building/proxying Shardless BUG for a long time and have recently fell in love with this deck. Having most of the staples for a BUG deck I plan on selling my Goyfs for the rest of the pieces (Dual lands). Force of Will pitching Misthollow Griffin makes my insides so happy. Having 3 3/3 (pseudo vigilance) flyers is great. Plus, I love I win buttons. However, I have one major question:

Looking at online lists recently, I have seen a lot of players play with a land count ranging from 17-20. Is there a general consensus players have reached on the mana base? I assume if you are playing 3 or 4 Ponders you would want to play less lands. Right now I am on the 8 cantrips (11 if counting Manipulate Fate), 18 land side of things and I have seemed to be enjoying it. More practice will determine my conclusion. I am ecstatic to find a deck I thoroughly enjoy the play style of. I have read the primer and it would be nice if I could get some more info.

[JackaBo]

Hello. I was building/proxying Shardless BUG for a long time and have recently fell in love with this deck. Having most of the staples for a BUG deck I plan on selling my Goyfs for the rest of the pieces (Dual lands). Force of Will pitching Misthollow Griffin makes my insides so happy. Having 3 3/3 (pseudo vigilance) flyers is great. Plus, I love I win buttons. However, I have one major question:

Looking at online lists recently, I have seen a lot of players play with a land count ranging from 17-20. Is there a general consensus players have reached on the mana base? I assume if you are playing 3 or 4 Ponders you would want to play less lands. Right now I am on the 8 cantrips (11 if counting Manipulate Fate), 18 land side of things and I have seemed to be enjoying it. More practice will determine my conclusion. I am ecstatic to find a deck I thoroughly enjoy the play style of. I have read the primer and it would be nice if I could get some more info.

Hello!

Yeah, food chain isn't a finnished deck like delver decks with like 3 flex spots. It seems like there's two "camps", those who run ponder and one mana discard-spells and fewer lands, and those who runs shardless agents and more lands. I've played the discard version for a couple of months and felt like 17 lands were too few. So now I run 18 lands and 3 ponder. With all the cantrip spells (4 BS + 3 ponder + 3 MF + 4 strix) you run through your deck pretty fast and sees alot of lands. With 4 ponder and 17 lands i felt there were too many 1 mana hands, and too much pondering for another land.

I've been trying out two snapcaster mages and thus far I like it very much. It's great preboard and even better sideboard, doubbling up your best spells. Versus permant-based decks it's decay 4-5 and versus spell based decks its surgical extraction 3-4 or flusterstorm 3-4 or hand disruption 5-6. Its also nice with a 2 mana creature in a single color fior then you got a tapped or disabled DRS and want to chain into empath. I've been arranging my sideboard accordingly with less permanents and more spells. I will hopefully be able to test this in paper in the comming weeks. I now only run two discaard spells main but 2 cliques MB which together with snapcaster is great versus planeswalkers.

[movingtonewao]

If you have Needle, you probably just want to name Wasteland with it. If you have the Tidespout finish, I'm not certain they have much of an answer to that once you get going.


This is one of the easiest cakewalks you will ever have. Their best case scenario is a fast 20/20 which strixes and Griffins can block all day long. Beware krosan grip so just try to make sure you therapy for grip before you drop food chain and it's elementary from there.

[JackaBo]

This is one of the easiest cakewalks you will ever have. Their best case scenario is a fast 20/20 which strixes and Griffins can block all day long. Beware krosan grip so just try to make sure you therapy for grip before you drop food chain and it's elementary from there.

I board in surgical extraction, needle and submerge/diabolic edict versus lands. But as Moningtonewao says, we have DRS to disrupt the loam engine, FOW/discard/decay to handle their accelerators and plenty of flyers that can block all day long. The biggest problem is punnishing fire IMO, so that's my usual target for surgical extraction.

[JackaBo]

I have the cards for this and I am excited to play it but before I sleeve it up, some questions for you vets:


What element other than value does shardless add to the deck? (seems like it doesn't help the combo outside of hitting MF)

What happen to genesis hydra combo finish? (its cute and I love explaining it)

Where did the maindeck misdirection go? (I assume meta call)

Is the flying on tombstalker not worth the second B? (this seems the most obvious, Angler > Tasi)

Why no JTMS in the side for slower, grindy matchups? (I have them and wish to play them)


Sorry, I didn't want to make changes based solely off preference. I read the last 5 pages but I still had questions even after.
I understand this is a Bug midrange deck that gets value off MhG as well as wins from nowhere.

Hello

I'm not the right person to advocate shardless agent since i'm not running it myself. Playing the deck, however, you will notice that this isn't a combo deck. It's a grind deck. The shardless agents adds alot to the grind plan being 2 for 1. It servers a role in the combo as well. Often you will want to play food chain and immediately do something with it, not waiting a whole turn. So usually you want a creature on the board when you play food chain so that you get your pack of griffins online. Shardless agent is perfect in that role, since both DRS and strixes usually get the bolt as soon as they are played. The agent has already brought value for you and is usually left alone. The shardless or no shardless build is however a matter of taste, and I don't like the deck building restriction that shardless agent imposes. Other candidates for that role is snapcaster mage (who adds value as well) and vendillion clique (which you can play at EOT to see that the coast in clear) then chain it into griffins after the attack.

The genesis hydra is mostly replaced with empath since hydra is mediocre without the combo. Empath on the other hand fetches gurmag angler which is not only a great beater, he also put dead griffins into exile.

Misdirection is great versus decay, hymn, ancestral visions and a few other spells. The space in the deck is tight though, but I've been running it in SB for a while and quite enjoyed it. I used to have it MD instead of fourth FOW and I often wished it was a FOW :P

Tombstalker is sure viable. To me the deck is already clunky, so having angler as a one mana threat is nice.

JMTS in SB is not a bad idea, go for it!

[Ricardio]

I appreciate the reply albeit later than I had hoped. I played the deck in a few challenges at GP Charlotte and had a ton of fun but didn't win much. I am not sure how good the deck is at the moment but I know I wasn't on an optimal list nor was I playing as tight as it should be played. The deck is a lot of fun and so often my opponent would say im on shardless and then see me cast manipulate exiling multiple unplayables only for them to laugh and tell me how awesome the deck looks. I will keep the pieces for the deck around but I don't feel its where I want to be right now.

[grokh]

Hi,

I don't play this deck anymore but i'm the owner of the playset of Food chain altered on 4 seasons and i just put it on sale on MagicCardMarket for 48€.

My MKM id is grokh.

If somebody is interested, you can go and check there !

The playset :

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/182943numrisation0001.jpg

Best regards

Grokh

[JackaBo]

Hi,

I don't play this deck anymore but i'm the owner of the playset of Food chain altered on 4 seasons and i just put it on sale on MagicCardMarket for 48€.

My MKM id is grokh.

If somebody is interested, you can go and check there !

The playset :

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/182943numrisation0001.jpg

Best regards

Grokh

Very nice looking! Are they tournament legal?

[grokh]

Very nice looking! Are they tournament legal?

They are tournament legal, but they've been sold just 1h after i had posted my message, sorry :frown:

[BeforeMemory]

I appreciate the reply albeit later than I had hoped. I played the deck in a few challenges at GP Charlotte and had a ton of fun but didn't win much. I am not sure how good the deck is at the moment but I know I wasn't on an optimal list nor was I playing as tight as it should be played. The deck is a lot of fun and so often my opponent would say im on shardless and then see me cast manipulate exiling multiple unplayables only for them to laugh and tell me how awesome the deck looks. I will keep the pieces for the deck around but I don't feel its where I want to be right now.
Yeah, this deck is most definitely sweet. It does have some work to go before being highly competitive. I do really enjoy the aspect of the opponent not really knowing quite what is going on until it is usually too late.


Hi,

I don't play this deck anymore but i'm the owner of the playset of Food chain altered on 4 seasons and i just put it on sale on MagicCardMarket for 48€.

My MKM id is grokh.

If somebody is interested, you can go and check there !

The playset :
{IMG}
Best regards

Grokh
Those are fantastic! Good luck with your sale.

[jake556]

Question for you seasoned veterans, specifically what matches do you pull the combo out for? Besides D&T? I had it come up against Infect and it seemed to work great brought in all my hate Thoughtseize, Duress, Fluster etc... thoughts? Obviously kept in Griffins

[Snazzycool]

Hey y'all! I hope everyone's having a good Memorial Day weekend. I played Food Chain to a top 4 finish at a local GPT on Sunday. We split the Top 4 prizes and all conceded to the only person going to GP Columbus who didn't already have byes.

My deck was:

Creatures
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Fierce Empath
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
Non-Creatures
4 Food Chain
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Dread of Night

Round 1
I played against Grixis Delver and went 2-0. Game 1 I was able to Abrupt Decay a Delver early on and Force pitching Griffin a Young Pyromancer. I cast an Angler and beat down. Game 2 he brought in Pithing Needles (casting two, both naming Food Chain). I killed him with Gurmag Angler beats and explained to him after the match that Pithing Needle doesn't do anything against Food Chain. He was pretty embarrassed.

Round 2
I lost 0-2 to Eldrazi Stompy. Game 1 he played a Chalice on 1 on the play and I drew my Force of Will the turn after. My hand was all one drops and a Baleful Strix that got Warping Wail'd. Game 2 I got to Toxic Deluge his board, but drew a bunch of lands in a row while he top-decked a Reality Smasher.

Round 3
I won 2-1 against Grixis Delver. These games were a little more interesting than the ones in round 1. Lots of back and forth for the first two games, killing each others' threats and stripping each others' hands. Game 3 he mulligan'd to 5 and I had double IoK on the play. Kind of unfortunate that it was basically a non-game, but oh well.

Round 4
I won 2-1 against Infect. Game 1 I mulliganed to 5 was killed by his turn 1 Glistener Elf pretty quickly. Become Immense is not a fair Magic card. Game 2 I Abrupt Decay'd his Glistener Elf and Disfigured his Inkmoth Nexus and beat him down with a Gurmag Angler. Game 3 I Disfigured his turn 1 Elf and played a Sylvan Library. The Library was 100% the reason why I won that match. It allowed me to find all 4 of my Baleful Strix, which made it pretty much impossible for him to win. I drained him out with Deathrite Shaman activations.

Round 5
I drew into the top 8 with my friend who was playing 4c Loam/Lands. We did some playtesting while we waited and I was able to combo pretty easily both games. Turn 1 Deathrite is a beating in that matchup. They're pretty much all in on the Marit Lage plan, but you have a variety of flying blockers, so it isn't easy. I used to play Merfolk in Legacy, and let me tell you, it feels great to finally play a deck that doesn't just lose on the spot to Punishing Fire. I will admit that one of the games, after casting Emrakul and moving to the next turn, I drew a card without paying for his Tabernacle, which would have been really embarrassing if it had been a real match.

Round 6
I won 2-0 in the quarterfinals against Bant Stoneblade. This seemed like a pretty favorable matchup. Hand disruption is really good against this kind of deck, and being able to pressure them with Deathrite, Griffin and Angler while threatening to combo at any time is fantastic. His best plan against me is to put a Jitte on a TNN and try to kill me before I can combo, but that seems to require a number of pieces falling into place all at the same time. Also, when you get into a counter fight by Forcing-pitching-Griffin, you just win 6 turns later.

Round 7
This would have been against the guy I lost to in round 2, but we decided to split and I conceded to him because I needed to go home and make dinner.

All in all, it was pretty fun and I'm happy that I did well in my first real tournament with the deck! I appreciated that a lot of players were caught off guard by the deck and didn't have great answers for my plan A or plan B.

[NeckBird]

What are this deck's worst and best matchups? Asking for my brother whose making this deck.

[nevilshute]

I don't really think the deck is massively favoured against any of the tier 1 decks but does have very even matchups against most of the field. The biggest weakness is probably the combo matchup. Storm isn't a lot of fun, show and tell is a bit better but still unfavoured. Sideboard can obviously help a lot, but expect to be a dog game one vs most other combo decks.

[movingtonewao]

If you're planning to take this to either GP columbus or prague, here's some advice:
- the deck is great at out midranging other decks
- thus your sideboard should be covering its weaknesses
- you definitely need to have something against combo, combinations of thoughtseize/cabal therapy and vendilion clique (my favourite ,since it can actually be pitched to FC to start the griffin chain)
- I would have something against delver as well, since the aggressive wasteland/daze plan does hit us hard, I would say we want 4 abrupt decay postboard and you can consider carpet of flowers
- i would have at least a singleton misdirection in the sb, if only for abrupt decay
- masquerade as shardless bug for as long as you can, but if they gitaxian probe or thoughtseize, then whatever man
- pray you don't meet burn, its brutal.

All the best.

[JackaBo]

What are this deck's worst and best matchups? Asking for my brother whose making this deck.

Delver decks (with stifle) can be really hard. Elves have been unwinable for me so far, and merfolk as well.
My most played matchup in my LGS is storm where im 6-4, so that matchup is ok imo. I run the discard version though, that may help.



Question for you seasoned veterans, specifically what matches do you pull the combo out for? Besides D&T? I had it come up against Infect and it seemed to work great brought in all my hate Thoughtseize, Duress, Fluster etc... thoughts? Obviously kept in Griffins

I used to pull it out in many match-ups but now I never do that. In the storm MU, for example, i feel that we have a too slow clock if we dont keep Griffins and a threat of just winning in.
The only one would be infect where both counters, spot removal and mass removal from the board are relevant - and both discard, counters and creatures in the MD wants to stay in.
I've won plently games versus DnT with the combo, so I wouldn't side it out there.

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, I've played Food Chain on and off for maybe six months now at some local events. The deck is super fun and super sweet and offers many lines of play. I also like that it nullifies many popular forms of interaction and basically out-midranges the field. For the record, I'm currently on the discard version.

I think we all wish the deck were a little more competitive and less clunky. So I wanted to offer a thought experiment to those of you with far more experience with the deck in efforts to peg Food Chain's weaknesses and resolve to address them:

If you could design a (reasonably powered) card for this archetype, (1) what would it be, (2) how many would you play, and (3) what would you cut from the current builds?

I have ideas about this, but I would love to hear yours. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the biggest problem with the deck is that its more expensive spells don't immediately impact the game to a degree commensurate with their costs. For example, Fierce Empath serves a role, sure, but spending :2::g: for a 1/1 - even if it gets Gurmag Angler that we can cast next turn - is often a big tempo loss. Yeah, it's a body to pitch to Food Chain and sacrifice to Cabal Therapy (if you run it), but it's a three-mana 1/1, too, and requires those cards in order to extract its maximum value. Same principle applies to dropping an unassisted Food Chain or drawing Emrakul, the Aeons Torn without 15 mana. I think there are a few too many conditional cards that slow us down. I get their functions, but since this is a thought experiment, I wonder what kind of card we could come up with to rectify this.

Again, if I'm totally off-base or spitting sacrilege, please let me know! I want this deck to be formidable, just like you guys, so I'm trying to see what we can conjure up to fix some of F.C.'s shortcomings. Maybe we discover that the tech already exists.

Thanks!

[Jakobian1010]

Just wanted to let you guys know I got 1st in a 25 player legacy event for staples, won myself a volcanic island for my efforts.

List is posted here:
http://mtgpulse.com/event/24909#334367

Ulamog was useless, probably should have been a reclamation sage. I wanted to try Ulamog out but it was never relevant.

Engineered Plague was frickin' awesome in this deck.

Highlights of the event:

In top8 we were allowed to see opponent's decklists because the event was being streamed. I got paired up against the painter's stone guy, he looks at my decklist and we start game 1. I go fetchland -> tropical island -> deathrite shaman and pass the turn. He goes city of traitors... ... let's go to game 2.

Against the Team America deck in top8, I cast thorn of amethyst and had 2 abrupt decays for my opponent's Thing in the Ice, and it locked him completely out of the game.

Earlier in the event I was playing against D&T, I cast a sylvan library the turn before he vialed in a mirran crusader and SFM'd his sword of fire and ice, He bashed me down to 10 life and killed my shardless agent and deathrite shaman. On my turn I pay 8 life to sylvan library, draw a brainstorm, cast brainstorm and get into combo territory. I combo wombo and win the game.

Against the JUNK player in the finals I got to misdirect a hymn to taurach back at him too. Feels good man.

[JackaBo]

Hey, y'all, I've played Food Chain on and off for maybe six months now at some local events. The deck is super fun and super sweet and offers many lines of play. I also like that it nullifies many popular forms of interaction and basically out-midranges the field. For the record, I'm currently on the discard version.

I think we all wish the deck were a little more competitive and less clunky. So I wanted to offer a thought experiment to those of you with far more experience with the deck in efforts to peg Food Chain's weaknesses and resolve to address them:

If you could design a (reasonably powered) card for this archetype, (1) what would it be, (2) how many would you play, and (3) what would you cut from the current builds?

I have ideas about this, but I would love to hear yours. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the biggest problem with the deck is that its more expensive spells don't immediately impact the game to a degree commensurate with their costs. For example, Fierce Empath serves a role, sure, but spending :2::g: for a 1/1 - even if it gets Gurmag Angler that we can cast next turn - is often a big tempo loss. Yeah, it's a body to pitch to Food Chain and sacrifice to Cabal Therapy (if you run it), but it's a three-mana 1/1, too, and requires those cards in order to extract its maximum value. Same principle applies to dropping an unassisted Food Chain or drawing Emrakul, the Aeons Torn without 15 mana. I think there are a few too many conditional cards that slow us down. I get their functions, but since this is a thought experiment, I wonder what kind of card we could come up with to rectify this.

Again, if I'm totally off-base or spitting sacrilege, please let me know! I want this deck to be formidable, just like you guys, so I'm trying to see what we can conjure up to fix some of F.C.'s shortcomings. Maybe we discover that the tech already exists.

Thanks!

I totally agree with your critisism and I believe questioning card-choices is what we should be doing here on the Source. In a way I feel like situationally dead cards are a part of any combo deck. I feel the empath package is less clunky than the hydra package and that there's a lot of synergies in empath, angler, drs, food chain, griffins. One card that could be promising is traverse if you can bin strix via blocking or therapy.

[JackaBo]

I have been running a snapcaster build for two consecutive weeks doing 2-1-1 and 3-0-1.
This is the deck: Legacy Food chain snapcaster.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/208528

Last week i faced
4c stoneblade (2-0), both games won with emrakul
Maverick (2-1), both games won with emrakul
Alluren (1-1), grindy games
Infect (2-1), played control and sided out the combo after g1

So the idea is that i cut cabal therapy, duress, tasigur, ponder from Eli Kassis' list and added one more land, 2 snapcaster, one more Clique. This gives me less dead cards in the late game and hardly makes my combo MU worse - since snapcaster can flashback SB cards my postboard games is even better.
I'm not saying this is better than shardless build, but it's making your sideboard stronger which I like.

[theMonster]

I've been running one Snapcaster Mage in my list along with one Vendilion Clique and two Delve creatures, but perhaps I'll try a similar configuration to yours, JackaBo.

I'm also considering sleeving up some number of Shardless Agents on Friday for my weekly, seeing as I've never played with the card. How many of these flex 3-drops do y'all like to run? (I lump SCM into this category, too.) I've seen lists with 2-4. My worry is that too many of these cards would clog up the curve. I've been playing DeathBlade for a while now, for example, and my biggest criticism of the deck is its glut of 3-drops. I understand that 3 CMC is important with Food Chain, but we also run 2 Fierce Empath. Do you guys frequently find yourself bottlenecked on mana and unable to efficiently dispatch your threats? My inclination is to run 2, maybe 3, of these flex 3-drops to make the list more curve-friendly, but you guys would know better than me.

Looking forward to getting more reps in with this deck!

[Ricardio]

I played this deck a bit. It is by far some of the most fun you can have in legacy imho. I tried with agents and without: personally, I found them to be entertaining but not very necessary albeit your opponent will be totally confused by what you are playing so it is comical. I plan on playing some side events at scg Orlando Saturday and then jamming bug control sunday.

List for Saturday:

4 MH griffin
4 drs
4 strix
2 empath
2 gurmag
1 griselbrand (castable off gurmag+FC whereas emrakul is only combo)
1 tidespout
1 v clique

2 manipulate fate
4 brainstorm
4 force
4 ponder
3 decay
4 food chain
2 thoughtseize

1 forest
1 island
1 swamp
4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
2 trop


It has been good but mostly entertaining.

[grokh]

Hi,

If some of you want to PIMP, i sold some pieces of my deck to a friend :
3 Manipulate fate FOIL (2 US+ 1 FR or 2 FR + 1 US, i don't remember)
3 Misthollow griffin FOIL FR

He sell them on MagicCardMarket, id : Yasky76

If some of you are interested !

Grokh

[theMonster]

OK, so I dusted off the deck and took it to FNM last night, going a disappointing but nonetheless wildly amusing 2-2. I'll post my list, a summary of the seminal moments of each match, my (probably terrible) sideboarding for you to critique, and some thoughts I had.

Note: some middle school kids who are relatively new to the game showed up, having never seen Emrakul before. Needless to say, the Spaghetti Monster annihilator 6ed their minds.

My list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Fierce Empath
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Dimir Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
4 Force of Will

1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain

4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

// sideboard //

1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage


The Dimir Charm was an experiment and a hedge against the two Reanimator players in the room over the fourth Abrupt Decay. I figured it could counter game-ending sorceries, pitch to Force of Will, and also remove small creatures. I may end up keeping it. Dread of Night and Reclamation Sage were nods to two DnT pilots. Normally I'd play an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.

Round 1: Jund

Game 1 I keep a two-lander and never see a third land despite T3 Brainstorm and a Ponder shuffle T4.

Game 2 I kill his Deathrite Shaman and land a T3 Gurmag Angler. We trade resources, I Extract his Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decay, and I start smashing with the Zombie Fish. He gets two Bloodbraid Elfs online, finding him two Dark Confidants. He chump blocks Angler with a Tarmogoyf and one of the Bobs, leaving him at 3 and me at 4.

On my turn, he has two tapped Bloodbraids, a tapped Deathrite, an untapped Bob, and a Chains of Mephistopheles. I have the Angler, Food Chain, six lands, and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in hand. Any land, creature, or removal spell I topdeck wins me the game. ... It's a Ponder. Awkward. My Ponder reveals a game-winning Toxic Deluge and Manipulate Fate that I can't draw because Chains requires me to discard Emrakul and shuffle my graveyard into my library before drawing off Ponder. I rip a Griffin with nothing to chain into. I'm hoping my opponent makes a mistake and exiles a creature from his graveyard to gain life with Deathrite out of fear of Bob; sadly, he does not. He reveals a land during upkeep, prompting a concession.

Sideboarding:
-4 Force of Will, -1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Disfigure

If Angler were Tombstalker I probably would've won the game, but it would've come online a turn later.

Round 2: Elves

Game 1 I have a less-than-stellar Elves hand and get Hoofed.

Game 2 I keep the board clean with Decay and Darkblast despite taking three hits from Cabal Therapy and beat down with birds.

Game 3 we each play a T1 Shaman with no fetches in the graveyard (but one in my hand). T2 he plays Elvish Visionary. T2 I pass, leaving up Decay. T3 he Thoughtseizes me, so I decide to Decay the Deathrite in response. Not sure if this is correct, as Visionary is a bigger threat as the game progresses. But I didn't want to get into Deathrite wars when I needed to develop my mana for 3- and 4-drops. He takes a Manipulate Fate. I think I cantrip a couple times, looking for removal and combo pieces. He ends up casting Natural Order, sacrificing a Dryad Arbor, for Wirewood Symbiote, drawing him a couple cards with Visionary over his next two turns. I eventually find Clique and the combo in hand. I decide to draw step Clique him because if I got to untap then I'd win, and he reveals a creature, a second Gaea's Cradle, Green Sun's Zenith and Craterhoof Behemoth. He has enough mana to get Hoof into play with either method due to the second Cradle he had just drawn, so the goose was cooked.

Sideboarding:
-1 Force of Will, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Baleful Strix, -1 Ponder
+2 Thoughtseize, +1 Disfigure, +1 Darkblast, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Pithing Needle

This is probably flawed thinking, but sometimes Elves pilots board out the combo to negate people's countermagic strategy, so shaving a Force was a hedge against that. Maybe that's wrong, though. Plus my blue card count was pretty low with my plan. Perhaps I need to explore that further. Not having Elesh Norn in my sideboard didn't end up mattering. Siding out Shardless is bad, right? I just thought it was a race to combo, and I didn't think it'd help me with that plan. Still working on how to play against the green guys.

Round 3: Goblins

Game 1 I get stuck on two lands again and get beat down.

Game 2 I combo.

Game 3 I Golgari Charm away ten or so Goblins, and then the PastaMan ravages his board.

Sideboarding:
-4 Force of Will, -1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Disfigure, +1 Darkblast, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Toxic Deluge

Round 4: Burn

In both games I got down below 3 life and survived just long enough to unleash Captain Keyword.

Sideboarding:
-1 Sylvan Library, -2 Ponder, -1 Baleful Strix
+2 Flusterstorm, +1 Disfigure, +1 Reclamation Sage (for Sulfuric Vortex and Pyrostatic Pillar, but perhaps that's unnecessary)

Should I have taken out Gurmag Angler instead of one of the other cards?

All in all, a ton o' fun. Definitely gonna play this some more. Some thoughts I had:

- Basic Island in the opening grip can be super tricky, especially when I bring in more black cards in postboard games. The most glaring incompatibilities are with Deathrite and Decay, but Island kept me off Charming for a turn, too. I'm considering replacing one of the two Islands with a fourth Underground Sea to mitigate this. It's also justification for playing Dimir Charm over a fourth Decay because you have removal that you can cast if you need to play basic Island in the first two turns.
- 20 lands is the right number with two Ponders. My fetchland numbers are probably not optimized, but those are the ones I own. If I go down to one Island, I've definitely gotta switch out a Misty Rainforest for a Verdant Catacombs.
- Stalker vs. Angler: Three times I cast Angler with exactly seven available mana - point for Zombie Fish. But Stalker's evasion would've won me game 2 in round 1 - dap for Demon. Honestly, I'm not sure which is better. Angler is more reliable, of course, but in a world of Grixis Delver and creature combat, I wonder if Flying is worth the inconsistency.
- Murderous Cut was fine. Maybe I try to squeeze in a second Delve creature and replace Cut with Dismember. Five removal spells maindeck felt OK. I'd be uncomfortable playing fewer.
- I felt a little helpless in the early turns. There aren't a lot of T1 plays outside of Ponder and Deathrite, and our T2s either set up something with Fate or Brainstorm or defend us with Strix or Decay. I wonder if playing a couple copies of a more aggressive 2-drop alongside Strix would help us not constantly be on the back foot. Room is tight, certainly, but something to consider.
- Cards I'm considering in the 75: Misdirection, the fourth Decay, the second Angler/Tombstalker, Dismember

Thanks for reading, and I hope to you'd indulge me with your thoughts!

[.Ix]

Re: Chains and the Jund match

I'm pretty sure the Emrakul shuffle would be put on the stack and resolve after you draw from the Ponder. You should have won that one!

I'm wondering if there's a way to run Hymn in the Shardless variant, similar to the Shardless Bug decks.

[theMonster]

Re: Chains and the Jund match

I'm pretty sure the Emrakul shuffle would be put on the stack and resolve after you draw from the Ponder. You should have won that one!

I'm wondering if there's a way to run Hymn in the Shardless variant, similar to the Shardless Bug decks.

(face-palm) You're right! It's a trigger. Shoulda' caught that. Haven't played much with Emrakul, so now I know.

I'm strongly considering Hymn to Tourach, but I think :b::b: on T2 would be difficult to manage. I've been trying to come up with a 2-drop that synergizes with everything in the deck and is an offensive threat to accompany the defensive Baleful Strix. Maybe it's just good ol' dumb Tarmogoyf. But it wouldn't play as well in this list because there wouldn't be Hymns or Wastelands or Liliana of the Veil to get cards in their graveyard, and it's a non-bo with Gurmag Angler. Maybe something like Scavening Ooze so we can exile Griffins when they die(?). It's not really a 2-drop, though, 'cuz you want :g: available to pump it. Playing the deck again after some time off from it, I feel like two copies of some offensive 2-drop alongside two Strix is something I'd like to try, so if y'all have suggestions, I'm all ears.

[JackaBo]

I played this deck a bit. It is by far some of the most fun you can have in legacy imho. I tried with agents and without: personally, I found them to be entertaining but not very necessary albeit your opponent will be totally confused by what you are playing so it is comical. I plan on playing some side events at scg Orlando Saturday and then jamming bug control sunday.

List for Saturday:

4 MH griffin
4 drs
4 strix
2 empath
2 gurmag
1 griselbrand (castable off gurmag+FC whereas emrakul is only combo)
1 tidespout
1 v clique

2 manipulate fate
4 brainstorm
4 force
4 ponder
3 decay
4 food chain
2 thoughtseize

1 forest
1 island
1 swamp
4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
2 trop


It has been good but mostly entertaining.

I like this list! I would cut the fourth griffin for a third manipulate fate just because the insane value of that spell, but I can see the merits of four griffins too. I also like the Griselbrand, for the same reasons you mention, but I think I would rather couple him with Emrakul than Tyrant, so you have a finnisher that doesn't die to swords.
I used to run 2 carpet of flowers as a hedge to wasteland+stifle decks, but I also boarded them in versus blue control decks (usually taking out 2 basics). With actually castable combo finnishers like Tyrant and Griselbrand, carpet serves the role as combo enabler 5-6 which is nice. I almost cast emrakul off double carpet once.


OK, so I dusted off the deck and took it to FNM last night, going a disappointing but nonetheless wildly amusing 2-2. I'll post my list, a summary of the seminal moments of each match, my (probably terrible) sideboarding for you to critique, and some thoughts I had.

Note: some middle school kids who are relatively new to the game showed up, having never seen Emrakul before. Needless to say, the Spaghetti Monster annihilator 6ed their minds.

My list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Fierce Empath
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Dimir Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
4 Force of Will

1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain

4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

// sideboard //

1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage



I like this deck as well. I think that as far Shardless agent goes 2 or 3 sounds about right and the inclusion of dimir charm is a clever way to put countermagic
in a deck with Shardless agent. Your sideboarding sounded right, but personally never side out cantrips since they lets you find the sideboard cards. I usually SB out ~4 cards, either decay (for example vs reanimator), discard + clique and/or fow (versus fair decks) or strix (versus decks that don't win with creatures but decay is still good). Somestimes both strix and decay are dead (for example versus ANT, if they don't run creatures post board) and sometimes I just take out empath + most of the chains + emrakul (versus infect).

[theMonster]

Been thinking about possible cards to try. I think the deck could use a more offensive 2-drop to compliment Baleful Strix's defense. Originally I thought about a singleton Scavening Ooze because it can exile dead Griffins and become huge in the right circumstances. But how about a little off-the-wall inclusion?:

Lotus Cobra

Lots of lists play sideboard Carpet of Flowers to ramp up. Well how about a card that allows you to do it on your terms, attacks for 2, and is a body to start the chain? It's not a great topdeck, of course, but I feel like it can do some silly stuff like T2 Cobra --> T3 fetchland, crack it, do what you will with five mana (like cast Chain, exile Cobra to play Griffin and be able to pay for Daze perhaps). Maybe that's a corner case, but if you play enough fetchlands, you can probably maindeck an 8-drop dude - Griselbrand, Tidespout Tyrant, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, whichever flavor you fancy - and cast it more reliably. And if your opponent is gonna Bolt or Plow your snake, you're winning.

Thoughts?

[DireLemming]

A cool piece of tech from http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30812-Mono-Green-Food-Chain
Woodland Bellower enables any fatty from just FC & Empath. On its own the Bellower is nothing to write home about, but he is a decent body and at worst draws into a DRS.

[Ricardio]

New griffin!

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/eternalscourge.html

[Zirath]

We have a new toy:

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/eternalscourge.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/eternalscourge.html

Does this change anything? My thought is no because of the fact that Griffin flies and can be pitched to our disruption. Maybe the mono-green build will have a field day with their new toy.

EDIT: I took too long to post. My statement doesn't change.

[Ricardio]

potentially being griffin 5-8 is a big deal and the fact that it is colorless, making it easier to cast, as well as exiles when targeted by opponent, I feel like it will be potentially positive for the archetype overall.

[NeckBird]

We have a new toy:

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/eternalscourge.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/eternalscourge.html

Does this change anything? My thought is no because of the fact that Griffin flies and can be pitched to our disruption. Maybe the mono-green build will have a field day with their new toy.

EDIT: I took too long to post. My statement doesn't change.

It does make Manipulate Fate far better beyond the first, even easier to play a value and attrition game, and is resilient to all spot removal even without Food Chain or DRS out. I doubt it's an automatic 4x of, but it should be excellent as a 2-3 of. Not going to make Food Chain Tier One, but I can see it improving the Miracles and Death & Taxes matchup, which is still an improvement.

[Zirath]

It does make Manipulate Fate far better beyond the first, even easier to play a value and attrition game, and is resilient to all spot removal even without Food Chain or DRS out. I doubt it's an automatic 4x of, but it should be excellent as a 2-3 of. Not going to make Food Chain Tier One, but I can see it improving the Miracles and Death & Taxes matchup, which is still an improvement.

But do we benefit from more Griffins? We don't even play all 4 consistently. This deck has always had the issue of needing to dilute its plan to handle other decks better.

[theMonster]

But do we benefit from more Griffins? We don't even play all 4 consistently. This deck has always had the issue of needing to dilute its plan to handle other decks better.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one reason we don't all play four Griffins is because of its mana cost. :2::u::u: is a steep investment in Legacy. But perhaps now we can run, say, 3 Griffin and 2 Scourge(?). Perhaps then it would be worth it to play the full set of Manipulate Fates.

[maharis]

It's cool that we have another Griffin to play with, but I don't think it's a matter of a tweak to the current "stock" lists. I don't think the things it does "better" than Misthollow Griffin outweigh the things Griffin does better than Eternal Scourge -- in particular having evasion and pitching to Force.

Scourge is better against Lightning Bolt and Blood Moon, but those just aren't cards I feel we lose to a lot.

So if you are looking at this card, I think you're talking about re-architecting the deck a bit. That could be fun. In my experience, the issue with this deck hasn't been getting Griffins; between Manipulate Fate and cantrips and stuff they're easy enough to find. The problem has been finding and sticking a Food Chain. So maybe you're talking about a G/W version with this dude as the creature half and some more ways to find Food Chain. Of course you lose the Griffin/Force/Fate power, so you have to make it up in other ways. Just spitballing.

[JackaBo]

It's cool that we have another Griffin to play with, but I don't think it's a matter of a tweak to the current "stock" lists. I don't think the things it does "better" than Misthollow Griffin outweigh the things Griffin does better than Eternal Scourge -- in particular having evasion and pitching to Force.

Scourge is better against Lightning Bolt and Blood Moon, but those just aren't cards I feel we lose to a lot.

So if you are looking at this card, I think you're talking about re-architecting the deck a bit. That could be fun. In my experience, the issue with this deck hasn't been getting Griffins; between Manipulate Fate and cantrips and stuff they're easy enough to find. The problem has been finding and sticking a Food Chain. So maybe you're talking about a G/W version with this dude as the creature half and some more ways to find Food Chain. Of course you lose the Griffin/Force/Fate power, so you have to make it up in other ways. Just spitballing.

In my mind Griffins are way better than this dude for the reasons stated above and I also dont need griffin 5-8 in my deck, 3 is good enough for me. However, I consider replacing one griffin with Eternal Scourge just because the fact that you can go T1 DRS, T2 MF exiling 2 griffin, 1 Scrourge, T3 chain, eat land with DRS and exile for 3 mana total, then get 9 power on the board, where only griffins would have to wait one turn. Also the blood moon argument is valid. What this deck would really benefit from is an in-colour dork that fetches an enchantment, that would be sweet.