Veteran Explorer Doomsday

[Vacrix]

I've been trying to get this to work lately, specifically Veteran Explorer in storm combo. Against RUG, its free basics and against other decks, we exploit the lands better. Pact isn't as dangerous before turn 2 as you might think, having ported a lot of the acceleration structure of this deck from Pact Spanish Inquisition. Even if your entire hand gets stuffed by permission, often you will still have 4 lands to pay the upkeep.

Cabal Therapy is one of the better disruption spells in Legacy, but not how its been played in current versions of TES and ANT. Its a subpar protection spell that occasionally does work when you play it with another subpar protection spell, Gitaxian Probe. In this deck, though, Cabal Therapy is fully exploited because you can actually flashback it.

Currently the list is 62 cards. I'd appreciate some help in figuring out what to cut. The list is incredibly fun to play, though its obviously a little more challenging than whatever storm variant you're familiar with.


- VE Doomsday -
Pact-package - 12
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Dogs
1 Dryad Arbor

Acceleration - 14
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

Land - 13
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Cantrip - 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Protection - 5
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gitaxian Probe

Business - 10
1 Burning Wish
1 Idea's Unbound
1 Cruel Bargain
2 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

62 cards


Some cards in the deck allow you to look like Nic fit by opening with cards like Therapy, Explorer, Top, Arbor, Bayou, Catacombs.


Note that Wild Dogs has cycling. Therefore, Pact allows you to cantrip into Doomsday in addition to being a powerful, color fixing mana source as Veteran Explorer, Dryad Arbor, and ESG. Eternal Witness is another card I'd consider to take further advantage of Summoner's Pact but its probably unnecessary.

I dropped Chrome Mox and Lotus Petals from my original build upon dropping Ad Nauseam. Probe is useful for some piles so I kept it in. I think that Idea's Unbound and Cruel Bargain allow for increased flexibility but I'm sure that more testing will narrow that slot to one or the other.

The absurd amounts of mana in this deck and cantrip chaining can lead to some incredible plays that have lead me to want the maindeck Tendrils quite often.

I haven't begun to work on a sideboard.


I've also worked on versions with Ad Nauseam. Those versions go off faster than ANT, a little slower than TES but better slow playing due to Therapy flashbacks, Explorers, Tops, etc.


EDIT:
Please note that a shit ton of mana, a couple Summoner's Pacts, and a Top are excellent and can actually stretch the deck's win potential because you can look at the top 3, Pact (shuffles), look at the top 3, play Explorer, crack explorer (shuffle), look... so you see double shuffling is extremely relevant at making your Tops and Brainstorms that much stronger.

[Umbranex]

this deck looks quite interesting. I really love the Nic Fit deck (I actually have four versions of it sleeved up that I play with currently :tongue: ) and I think that using the veteran explorer core to speed up the deck is a great idea. I especially love how this makes Rain of Filth a viable option in the deck.

personally in this build i would cut one explorer (since you only have four exploreable lands and the pact can search it out if need be effectively giving you 7 copies) and either a petal or the probe. I would lean toward the probe as I think the mana from the petal is more vital but I can see how the probe can be useful for piles occasionally and without testing the deck Im not sure which is the proper card to cut. I usually prefer three tops but with the number of shuffle effects to which this deck has access top gets so absurdly good I have to admit four is probably the best number to have. (plus of course BS can always tuck other copies of top or just draw off them if need be to get rid of them)

as for the sideboard I would have to test this a lot to know the best way to side. I have not played much combo so I am not as knowledgeable on the way TES and AnT and old Doomsday decks would need to board for the current meta.

[Vacrix]

Indeed. I don't want to cut Tops because they are completely retarded. In my gold fishing, I usually find myself sitting on a shit ton of mana and Top + Pact. The double shuffle effect usually means I can see 6 cards with Top. Add another Shuffle effect into the mix and you can see 9 cards with Top, and then eventually grab one with the top. TES playing 11 shuffle effects and ANT somewhere around 12-16 usually means their cantrips are for set up. Top makes the rest of the deck incredibly flexible. I also don't want to cut Brainstorms because they help you throw back what you don't need.

Cutting a Veteran Explorer makes sense but I think its one of the best cards in the deck that you can draw naturally. You can't Spell Pierce it, playing first or leading with Land + Petal (or holding ESG) makes setting up a breeze. I wouldn't think about Pact and VE has interchangable. Rather, Pact is typically going to be played the turn you win, or on turn 2 that way you can sneak through a cantrip behind a Therapy (remember that on turn 2 you have 2 lands and if you crack Explorer then you can have 4 to pay for Pact).

I'd say I want to lead with Therapy, Top, or Explorer, and if Brainstorm or Drit in a faster hand. It might be better to cut acceleration. I'm going to experiment by cutting a Drit and/or a Culling.

[Namida]

Do you feel like you actually have enough blue mana to support Ideas Unbound? Of course, you can use Cantrip + LED mana to make it work too, but I feel like 4 sources of blue mana is cutting it close when it comes to trying to actually cast a spell that costs two blue mana. I don't know--It might be easy to play around Wasteland because you have one Island, but it seems like you would need to be very careful getting your second blue mana.

[Vacrix]

It depends on how you approach your hand. Ideas Unbound is something I've found is immensely difficult to cast, so I put Manamorphose in as a 1'of that way if you DD with XG floating, you can cantrip into your top card which cantrips into IU, which draws you the other 3 cards. I cut a Culling for MM, and I'm testing that variation today.

Yes the Island is for Wasteland but also to give you flexibility with Explorer. Having a single Island means you can Brainstorm after VE. Also, I think that in general Pact is the best card in this deck. Pact can be converted into XX, or G, or a creature, or a cantrip, and its an instant that costs 0. I'm trying to design the deck this way on purpose because people rarely counter Pact. This deck should be expected to be a Dark Horse since giving the opponent 2 free basics when you go off and playing Doomsday means WAY more thinking than your typical storm combo player wants to do. At the same time, you will confound opponents who have no idea how to out think you because the deck is not entirely straight forward like most storm combo. Notice how storm combo became much more stream lined, which means playing against it also became relatively stream lined. A lot of storm players still talk like Empty the Warrens and Xantid Swarm are super secret tech. The ideas I'm proposing are much more experimental, but it also means you can build a storm variant with lines of play in it that will out play opponents who think they have you figured out, this is especially the case when you consider how many control players are choosing to play with discard in BUG variants. Obviously they are, its easy to pick apart a storm deck nowadays because they don't have enough moving parts, and in general you can anticipate your opponents possible lines of play, even with storm players playing multiple cantrips. Doomsday is much harder to play against because Doomsday is more flexible. Pact is incredibly flexible, Veteran Explorer makes your mana base and long game more flexible, Burning Wish makes getting out of shitty situations easier. I was also thinking that because this deck doesn't play Ad Nauseam, it might make sense in the pre-board to just have the option of making a play like 'Probe, see no counter magic, see RUG? oh shit, see lightning bolts', all I have in hand is Summoner's Pact and a shit ton of mana because I was waiting, Pact into the right fat creature, go to town and pay the upkeep with a LED or the lands from my VEs. Anyone with ideas on what this creature might be, please shoot off ideas, and lets explore. Having one of these also gives the VE Doomsday player the option of just creating a situation where they blow up the board with Burning Wish --> Damnation and then just win with a fat dude thats part of the Pact-package.



Also, I'm thinking about IGG in the maindeck (another variation I'll be testing today), and a Dream Salvage. I know that sounds retarded at first glance, but my intuition tells me that this deck really wants to play IGG in the pre-board because this storm variant tends toward a shit ton of mana and it can do a lot with an IGG. In my goldfishing, I actually keep wishing I was playing one because its fairly easy to recycle your graveyard, for example a Summoner's Pact, Culling, IT. I'm speaking about drawing the IGG naturally here

If we aren't looking at storm with a pre-digested point of view, then you notice that IGG is still a pseudo-mind twist for 4. This deck recovers from that situation incredibly easy thanks to cantrips (SDT being huge here), basics, and multiple business spell options. Dream Salvage looks like it could be the missing link for figuring out how to make IT work in cases where you can't just play an IGG loop on auto-pilot. In these cases, Culling the Weak is likely cracking a Veteran Explorer, or you have the right acceleration, but you don't want to play the 2nd IGG maindeck, so you play a singleton Dream Salvage instead. The Dream Salvage follows the tail end of an early IGG where you IT with 5 floating, but you aren't able to produce enough storm for a kill, and you aren't able to go for Empty the Warrens (perhaps we've played Pact). This allows you to draw 6/7 new cards. Paying for Pact after that should be easy as you have a chance of hitting multiple Explorers. Dream Salvage will also randomly be a silver bullet against decks that discard a shit ton of cards like Dredge. I'm going to try these 2 singletons, and cut a Doomsday, still keeping it at 62 cards.

[Umbranex]

Yes thinking more on it I can see how V Explorer is much better to have naturally than to need to pact for it. Im coming from a Nic Fit line of thinking and im used to tutoring them with the GSZ. I would still recommend cutting down to 61 cards if you can though. I usually play 61 but going higher may throw off the numbers too much (although I have not actually worked out the difference in percentages between the 61 and 62 MD size so between the filtering and Doomsday it may be an moot point)

I can see this becoming more flexible and powerful than traditional storm if the deck is fine tuned enough since I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of storm as it is. It is very straight forward and I am able to beat it with discard due to this very reason.

As for the creatures are you looking to try and find a finisher creature that is castable against pretty much the whole field or one specifically for RUG matchups? I am guessing the former. One possibility is Sigarda. Her double white makes her hard to cast but LEDs will help with that and she is all but unstoppable by most of the field. another one who is easier to cast but can be chumped much easier is Thrun. 4/4 beater that can regen and has the added bonus of being immune to Swords and counters could be a possibility. Out of these two I would still go with Sigarda though. Her toughness to cast and the chance of being countered is more than made up for by the fact that she is all but immortal against the meta. When I ran her in white Nic Fit she won me so many games it was sick. It was not very often that she would resolve and I would not end up winning shortly after.
Another crazy powerful creature is Obliterator. That dude is a straight truck to the face for any non white deck if he resolves. The downside of course is Swords and sacrifice effects but he is relatively low cost for such a powerhouse that also dodges decay if you run into a deck running it.

Do you have this deck built on MtGO? I would love to watch some games where you pilot it. (especially if it has commentary) That would allow me to get a better grasp on the finer workings of the deck that I may be missing and will help fuel ideas that I may be able to contribute since most of my experience of storm is playing AGAINST it lol

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I was also thinking that because this deck doesn't play Ad Nauseam, it might make sense in the pre-board to just have the option of making a play like 'Probe, see no counter magic, see RUG? oh shit, see lightning bolts', all I have in hand is Summoner's Pact and a shit ton of mana because I was waiting, Pact into the right fat creature, go to town and pay the upkeep with a LED or the lands from my VEs. Anyone with ideas on what this creature might be, please shoot off ideas, and lets explore.

One of the Spirit Avatars? Deity of Scars, Deus of Calamity.
Novablast Wurm? They lose all creatures once you tap it.
Phantom Nishoba? Lifegain is good, amirite?
Gleancrawler for moar Veteran fun?
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed makes their cantrips-for-Submerge unplayable.
Spiritmonger is stylish, big enough and doesn't cost much.

[Umbranex]

Spiritmonger is stylish, big enough and doesn't cost much.

oh man i cant believe i forgot about Spiritmonger! he was my favorite creature back in the day! I would love to see him get some play again. Unfortunately he dies to Lilly and Swords :frown:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

oh man i cant believe i forgot about Spiritmonger! he was my favorite creature back in the day! I would love to see him get some play again. Unfortunately he dies to Lilly and Swords :frown:

Wait, we're looking for a creature agianst RUG-like (and BURG-like?) decks. :smile:
They don't play either of the cards you've mentioned and any 4-and-more cmc creature dodges Decay. Also, Monger regenerates in case of gangblock, while Nishoba makes it extremely hard for them to place extremely precise Stifle, so they can't easily recover from a three-turns clock with lifegain and kinda-indestructibility.
Also, you won't this creature to be green (pact can't find Obliterator) with a bit of devotion to black (Culling mana) been tolerated.
Also, Simic Sky Swallower seems quite fine.
Sadly, all the possible choices are either too weak or too expensive, and althogh Monger might be gangblocked-and-then-regeneStifled, it's so unusual scenario that I can't really think it 100% seriously. Funny thing is that Culling mana gives you 4/5 of its cost While Vet finds the remaining two lands to pay both the remaining green and part of the Pact's upkeep. If you play this turn2 (turn1 Vet, turn2 CtW+Vet, Pact->Monger), you should be able to pay the Pact simply with lands, unless one of them is Wasteable. But that's what the Drit/LED/LP/w-e is for.

[Umbranex]

Wait, we're looking for a creature agianst RUG-like (and BURG-like?) decks. :smile:
They don't play either of the cards you'Ve mentioned and any 4-and-more cmc creature dodges Decay. Also, Monger regenerates in case of gangblock, while Nishoba makes it extremely hard for them to place extremely precise Stifle, so they can't easily recover from a three-turns clock with lifegain and kinda-indestructibility.
Also, you won't this creature to be green (pact can't find Obliterator) with a bit of devotion to black (Culling mana) been tolerated.

ah I feel silly now... you are completely right. for some reason I thought that Pact searched ANY creature ala chord of calling :tongue: In that case I would agree and think that Monger would be a great choice for this deck. I do like Nishoba but I feel like Monger is just better. While it doesnt have lifegain it is easier to cast and actually gets bigger as opposed to smaller.

Lets bring back the fear of spiritmonger to legacy :cool:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Lets bring back the fear of spiritmonger to legacy :cool:

:laugh:
Also, Spiritmonger is randomly castable if you simply draw him. With all the Culling of Veterans, DRits, etc. you shouldn't be unable to just go "VE, CT, some Rite, Monger".

[P-E]

Reaper of the wild is not that bad pact target too but it lacks some evasive ability
Sigarda is awesome but WW matters :(

[Vacrix]

All good ideas. I have my last day of finals and then I'm going to test a whole bunch of ideas.

I was thinking Wolfbriar Elemental would be fantastic. If we can figure out a way to generate a bunch of green mana then it would be my go to choice with Summoner's Pact. THe only problem is converting it, or perhaps it could be a 1'of target for hands where you have LEDs and such, and you've hit 4 lands thanks to turn 2 land drop + Explorer. Pact could then also be flexible as a business spell, making it even more exploitable, and it would change the deck structure a lot. An excellent Burning Wish target for a post-Briar situation would be something that gives everything haste. This would also be incredibly good with Empty the Warrens. Wolfbriar is onlY good as a 1'of tho, I'd imagine.. because Pact is designed to conserve deck space.

[Arianrhod]

What happened to the Entomb package? Too many slots, I guess? Entombing Therapy / PiF / Narco seems randomly sweet, and PiF + Pact / Cullings etc looks insane on paper.

Any idea on a rough sketch for the wishboard? I want to proxy this up, but I'm not sure what this version would be roughly interested in wishing for.

[ScatmanX]

Aren't only 4 Cabal Teraphy too few protec? I know you can recap them, but you still need to find them. Entomb does sounds nice.
Playing with this looks really fun.

[FirefoxMetzger]

Ok so this will be the first thread I will post in =)
Actually I was looking for some information about DDFT / DDLM, wanting to primarly ask questions about DDFT card choices, piles and some stuff like that. Searching for the right topic to post my questions my eyes sliped over "Veteran Explorer Doomsday" and my first thought was something between "wtf!?" and "fancy!" so I had to take a look.

On the first gleance VE + CtW looked good for storm. Opening you to BBBBXX + 2 storm for the cost of BG. Thats a sweet bunch of mana storm is craving for.
Dryad Arbor seems off to me. Its basicly a forest with summoning sickness while begging to be hated out by creature removal. Playing this is probably for CtW but with 8 virtual VE do you really want to play Arbor?
The only valid way I saw Arbor played so far was Green Sun's Zenith for X=0 t1. You have access to better acceleration than that so i would cut that card.
SSG is a nice card however two copys seem a bit off. 1 for Summoner's Pact should fix any situations where u have like Pact + VE without a green source and wish to combo off that turn.

The acceleration Package is solid, but . . .
you are able to ramp tons and tons of black mana. Some other colors for the bare cost off all cards at your name. You mentioned u can pump them well into your SDT while the extreme tutoring effect is great it does not increase your storm count directly.
The lack of other colors (namely U) is a problem. You can fix it in DD doing something like
LED IU LED LED BW
with an SDT in play and a cantrip in your hand, however most piles (the ones with only 1 cantrip) require at least UU+ some additional mana.
However, with that black burst, piles like
CB LED LED X BW + SDT in play
coming at the sheer cost of BBB1 for 6 storm seem valid as you can CtW for it. Downside is that it cost u 3/4 of your life putting you into bolt range (in many cases).

Sitting on 7 virtual DDs is quite nice. However in DDFT, IT didnt make it and got beaten by 4xBW (as it gives answers to more situations). The ToA maindeck is also a nice card as u are storming alot pre Doomsday, where in "classic" DDFT the magic usually happens post DD. Which opens you to some ANTisch plays.



Probe is useful for some piles so I kept it in.
PROBE IS USEFULL FOR EVERY PILE! Probes aren't only some "protection" pre DD but have a way more native function: They are a cantrip for :0:. Pre Phyrexia ppl played Street Wraith instead of GP. This one single U is a very big deal. (esp when u are running mainly black with some geen)


I've also worked on versions with Ad Nauseam. Those versions go off faster than ANT, a little slower than TES but better slow playing due to Therapy flashbacks, Explorers, Tops, etc.

Faster than ANT and slower than TES doesn't seem logic to me. TES is (basicly) ANT with a splash into white. There are some other differences, but ANT is usually faster than TES.
TES still comes out ahead of ANT as it has more protection like the chant effects. (not to mention DDFT here which can be piloted around stuff like thalia, teek AND mindbreak trap at the same time)

I think your deck needs more protection than just 4 cabals even with the flashback. It seems that u dont have any way to interact with combo hate which has already entered the board like gaddok, thalia, Ethersworn, Rule of Law, Leyline, ...
4 cabals just isn't enough against a deck that runs counters + combo hate as your deck seems to be one of the slower storm decks in this format.


How about Lim-Dûl's Vault?

Entomb sounds like a rly nice card. You can also go and try to play something similar to DDLM as DD and Laboratory Maniac just work well together by design. You also utilise the Entomb pre DD which tends to be a "dead" card in the DDLM pre DD.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

All good ideas...

Primeval Titan

[Umbranex]

Reaper of the wild is not that bad pact target too but it lacks some evasive ability
Sigarda is awesome but WW matters :(

Sigarda would be castable off an LED. Not ideal for ease-of-casting but it may be worth it for an all but invincible evasive beater. worth testing at least.


Aren't only 4 Cabal Teraphy too few protec? I know you can recap them, but you still need to find them. Entomb does sounds nice.
Playing with this looks really fun.

I also agree here. 4 protection cards does feel like a tad too few. question is what would come out in order to add more? I havent played this form of combo before so the only thing I can go off of is what I see on paper. maybe add one or two more burning wishes (or just rely on tutoring them) and try out toxic deluge and one thoughtseize in the side? those would offer a little more protection for when you want to rip another card from their hand or deal with the problem creatures mentioned.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sigarda would be castable off an LED. Not ideal for ease-of-casting but it may be worth it for an all but invincible evasive beater. worth testing at least.

Sigarda is fine, but you need LED. Then you need another LED for Pact trigger. Primeval Titan finds the lands needed to pay for the pact, further improves the manabase in case you need to fall back to DD plan and for all the practical matters, it's similarly good as Sigarda - RUG won't be siding Submerges and even if they gangblock him with double 5/6 Goyfs and/or Bolt him away, they still lose CA in process,while (unless they had Stifle) you twice improved build your manabase: once when Titan ETB, second time when you tap him. Also, not every RUG might defeat a fast 6/6 beast, even Monger would be brutal, but the fact that Titan has a relevant triggers instead of regeneration, makes him similarly amazing.

The most possible choices are:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=240033&type=card
+ hexproof
+ evasion
+ cheap cmc
- Rituals are quite wasted due to...
- ...colored mana requirements
- needs LED for casting
- Pact trigger requirements


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=28009&type=card
+ efficiently uses Culling mana...
+ ...and thus you only need one Forest
+ regeneration is good against RUG
+ cheap cmc
+ fashionable choice
- no eva, just a big stupid beater
- Pact trigger requirements


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=241832&type=card
+ doesn't need that many colored mana...
+ ...and its etb trigger helps to pay for the Pact, so you may save LEDs (and hand)
+ his attack triggers help with mana development and that is useful esp. in the named RUG matchup
+ may find utility land, be it Shelldock Isle, Karakas or Bojuka Bog or whatnot
- higher cmc
- might be easily Bolted or gang-blocked
- although it needs some work, the triggers can be Stifled changing the Titan into Kindercatch


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=338391&type=card
+ trample
+ returns used VEs
+ good colored mana requirements
- might be easily Bolted or gang-blocked
- higher cmc
- Pact trigger requirements


Sorry for the waste of space, but which other storm combo thread would find use for the creatures... moreover these ones? :smile:

[Arianrhod]

On the subject of protection -- are we convinced that we need it? Why not just tune the deck in the direction of Nic Fit philosophy: if they have a Force, just power through it. This is kind of where I think Past in Flames is crucial -- between recursion and discard, you'll just run most opponents out of protection. That's a pretty core concept to Nic Fit, and despite being a super specialized version of Nic Fit, I would still consider this to be a variant thereof.

[Lemnear]

Faster than ANT and slower than TES doesn't seem logic to me. TES is (basicly) ANT with a splash into white. There are some other differences, but ANT is usually faster than TES.
TES still comes out ahead of ANT as it has more protection like the chant effects. (not to mention DDFT here which can be piloted around stuff like thalia, teek AND mindbreak trap at the same time.

Sorry, I'm pretty sure that you have no clue about Legacy storm combo. This part tells all if you can't see differences between running Moxen or lands, Cabal Ritual or Rite of Flame, Preordain or Wish, etc.

[mistercakes]

I'm an avid doomsday player and I really like what you've done here. I was wondering how much it hurts your deck if you just run more Gitaxian probes. Does it make using the top and brainstorm that much worse? Can this compensate in terms of great cabal therapies?

[anwei]

I'm half a Doomsday player and I don't think the pieces will work well enough (I goldfishes ~15-20 games)
-Too much mana, not enough business
-Too many circumstantial cards, especially the sac mana
-Not enough of key cards (Probe) to ensure good Doomsdays
-Circumstantial cards make IT bad in many hands
-The Doomsday half doesn't have a compelling advantage over Doomsday (mana isn't really better) when playing that route; the SI/Storm half doesn't have a compelling advantage over SI/Storm

Overall, Explorer opens up some insane draws, but there are way more really-bad draws and far fewer ways to fix them.
Sometimes I storm out on turn 2 and hit 15 storm because I had 12 mana to work with. More often, I'd have trouble finding more business. You shouldn't keep a hand with IT and Brainstorm and end up stuck with no more manipulation/selection on turn 2-3, but that sort of thing happens too often here.

[Umbranex]

On the subject of protection -- are we convinced that we need it? Why not just tune the deck in the direction of Nic Fit philosophy: if they have a Force, just power through it. This is kind of where I think Past in Flames is crucial -- between recursion and discard, you'll just run most opponents out of protection. That's a pretty core concept to Nic Fit, and despite being a super specialized version of Nic Fit, I would still consider this to be a variant thereof.

Yea I can see that being a good course. Its just weird seeing this kind of hybrid deck... trying to decide which way it is leaning lol. Running PiF would make it easier to power through opposing disruption and in that case I can see not running more than just the Therapies... and possibly cutting a therapy or two. We could always go with more digging or searching if we want to really not care about our opponent and just try to power through their answers... that would also help address the below issue some as well.


I'm half a Doomsday player and I don't think the pieces will work well enough (I goldfishes ~15-20 games)
-Too much mana, not enough business
-Too many circumstantial cards, especially the sac mana
-Not enough of key cards (Probe) to ensure good Doomsdays
-Circumstantial cards make IT bad in many hands
-The Doomsday half doesn't have a compelling advantage over Doomsday (mana isn't really better) when playing that route; the SI/Storm half doesn't have a compelling advantage over SI/Storm

Overall, Explorer opens up some insane draws, but there are way more really-bad draws and far fewer ways to fix them.
Sometimes I storm out on turn 2 and hit 15 storm because I had 12 mana to work with. More often, I'd have trouble finding more business. You shouldn't keep a hand with IT and Brainstorm and end up stuck with no more manipulation/selection on turn 2-3, but that sort of thing happens too often here.

I havent had time to test any even goldfishing (very busy lately barely have time to read the forums and post on a few the past few days :frown: ) but I can see how this could be a concern. In that case we could cut a few cards for more dig. possibly a couple of the mana spells could be sheared away since between VE and all the rits and LEDs this deck doenst have any problem generating mana (especially if PiF is used and the creature chosen is Prime Time)

[DireLemming]

With the amount of mana available I don't see the point of IU. In the same vain going old-school with Meditate over Bargain might be a good idea, as Mediate is easier on the mana and doesn't cost life (and can be a proper draw spell in a grindy game). Otherwise an awesome development, I really see this going places.

[emidln]

There's a conflict between the size of the acceleration package and playing Doomsday+Infernal Tutor. I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't simply a conflict in playing Doomsday. Some analysis:

Draw spells with Doomsday:
- 4 Sensei's Divining Top
- 4 Brainstorm
- 1 Gitaxian Probe
- 5 Wild Dogs/Summoner's Pact
- 1 Cruel Bargain
- 1 Ideas Unbound
- 1 Burning Wish (1RUU (IU), 1R (GP), 1RBBB (draw4))

4 SDT is correct for reasons I've stated in other threads. In this deck, it has the obvious spinning mode, but that is actually less important than the "Suspend 1 - Draw a card or exile ~ with a time counter." mode or the 1, draw a card sometime this turn mode. The second to last mode lets you "store" mana for a later turn and the third mode gives you a permanent-based (and thus compatible with Infernal Tutor) way of drawing a card for a single mana.

4 Brainstorm is hard to argue with as the other way to draw lots of cards. Brainstorm in hand and BBBU often means the opponent is dead, particularly in decks like this where you have no trouble finding a few storm before.

1 Gitaxian Probe is understandable in the context of only maindecking 2 Doomsday (which seems very wrong given there is no Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, or ETW (not that any of those are at their best here); see discussion below on 2 Doomsday).

5 Wild Dogs / Summoner's Pact is really awesome. Neutral cantrip for 2 is actually fine most of the time (particularly when you generate gobs of mana and can use a spare mana card to be the 2 colorless draw spell).

1 Cruel Bargain is necessary. You make gobs of black mana (ritual-based and as land). This means your draw4 is castable normally (culling the weak an explorer into draw4? sign me up), and you often have an overabundance of non-blue mana when you get around to Doomsday.

1 Ideas Unbound is probably also necessary, mostly due to how much cheaper it can be. It's use as a pre-combo cantrip is somewhat diminished given that blue mana isn't often going to be the focus, but that might happen.

Notable omissions:

1 Ponder. Note how this isn't 4 Ponder. You obviously don't really have the time or inclination to cantrip for days in this deck. Ponder is a critical piece of several SDT/Brainstorm piles where you want to kill with ToA, but your library isn't stacked right. It's more efficient (by 1 vs cast SDT+rearrange) when you have to find your way past a dead brainstorm card without decking yourself. This is often the difference between U/1U lethal piles and non-lethal piles. Arguable. I'm assuming that it isn't being missed for a combination of reasons (including some people just not knowing about where it might be useful), but in 40 hands, I missed it twice causing me to pass turns where I shouldn't have had to.

If you count the draw spells, you might notice that there are actually fewer than we play in DDFT. DDFT has an often surprising (to those unfamiliar with its nature) ability to kill on turn 2 (at a frequency that rivals TES and ANT's abilities to actually end the game with Tendrils) despite playing fewer acceleration spells and no Ad Nauseam. The secret here is that in Doomsday, 1 draw spell equals 1 spare Black Lotus. An extra card in hand equals an extra Black Lotus in hand. Double cantrip piles are critical for tournament success, and having a cantrip available whenever you have BBB + Doomsday is necessary to actually take advantage of your gobs of mana.

So, we (or I at least) want more draw spells. We're already at 62 cards mind you.

Strategic issues:

Doomsday < MAX (4 DD in the 75)

Playing fewer than max Doomsdays without appropriate business for IT. IT has three modes in this deck: IT chain (this is fine, you have mana and storm); IT->Doomsday (this is awful, but we could fix it; right now you only have 4 SDT enabling); IT->BW->ETW (this costs 8). The only one that is actually okay is the first one. The second one needs Chromatic Sphere/Star to make it more likely to be the right thing. The fourth could actually be fixed by maindecking any of the things that have been tried in the past AdN, PiF, ETW, IGG) so that IT->business is only 6-7 total mana. All of that said, most of your issues go away if you become the Doomsday deck.

The Doomsday deck plays MAX doomsdays and the most efficient enablers. It also recognizes that Doomsday is a value tutor on its own, and doesn't necessary need the help of a cantrip (pass the turn piles). Specifically, what does this mean? Well, you need to be on 3 DD+multiple BW or 4 DD. Once you have this, you need max Gitaxian Probes (the card says draw a card, has no drawback, adds a storm, is free, and is legal in the format (i.e. not an Unglued spell)). Once you find your way to this path, you need to decide if you want BW or Infernal Tutor (or Diabolic Intent, but I think I've seen iterations of this where you were trying that and it didn't seem to work out needing to sac dudes for Culling, Therapy, and DI).

If you want IT, you need decide how many. I don't believe there is enough space for 4 and something to make IT good (but feel free to prove me wrong), which diminishes the single strong use case for IT (IT chains). If you want 4 IT, you probably need to support it with Petals + ETW/Ad Naus OR with permanent-based cantrips. PiF doesn't work due to not having enough castable things, and IGG can be awkward for the same reasons. Petals + ETW/ADN take up a ton of slots (we want more draw spells if we're going to be a Doomsday deck, and we're already at 62 cards...). Chromatic Sphere/Star are fairly interesting in that they let you invest both black (which you have a lot of) and green (which you have more of than you really are interested in for a combo deck) and turn them into blue plus a draw. This means you can IT->Doomsday and then use a Chromatic to draw a card. It can give you a 2nd blue for IU, a mana for Meditate, or just a useful draw effect. You probably aren't interested in a full set, but supplementing SDT is important. Sphere also has implications in making Doomsday a good pass the turn spell.

It you want BW, you probably need a significant rearchitecture to support more red (via Manamorphose, Simian Spirit Guide, or slowing down a turn). I'm not really going to explore this line here, but for those interested, visit storm boards and see the VANT thread for some discussion of a similar deck that includes multiple BWs on occasion.

It you want to make DD a strong pass the turn card, you have a couple options. 2 BW, IU, and 1RUU in your list lets you build the
Time Spiral pass the turn pile. This would probably be non-optimal in terms of supporting an extra BW, but is otherwise very doable with Veteran Explorer. With two slots, Laboratory Maniac (plus Chromatic Sphere) makes for an interesting kill that is actually immune to removal spells (drawing off sphere is a mana ability and thus won't use the stack, so you can cast Sphere, cast Maniac,
cycle sphere without passing priority. Lab Man has numerous applications avoiding hate and being an efficient Pass the Turn kill condition and thus might want to be investigated. Another option is IGG (or BW->IGG, the less efficient step sister) and abusing Brainstorm, LEDs, and SDT to make a boatload of mana.

That said, the deck needs to reconcile itself to become a legit Infernal Tutor deck or it needs to become the Doomsday deck. If you move down the path of IT, Chromatic Sphere is something that should probably become a 1-2 of. If you move in on becoming a Doomsday deck, you'll need to figure out where to add in 3 Probe, and probably a Chromatic Sphere plus Lab Man.

[Vacrix]

I like where everyone's discussions are taking Veteran Explorer in storm. Ultimately, I'm not interested in limiting our discussion to specific business suites because I would rather us explore the efficacy of Veteran Explorer and Summoner's Pact along with the other cards that play well with these, being Cabal Therapy and Culling the Weak. DI is a card I played with for a time, but I found it to have the same limitations as Doomsday; you need that other card to get it to work. I tried a 3 BW/3 DD list and it was incredibly fun to goldfish. I've also tried VANT lists that play Ad Nauseam as the business spells I've found just need too many non-land sources in a deck thats trying to abuse interacts within VE which means running basics, and then green fetches, which means Dryad Arbor, Culling the Weak and Cabal Therapy.

I've been playing this list today and I really like it so far:

- VE Doomsday -
Pact-package - 13
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Dogs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wolfbriar Elemental

Acceleration - 13
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
3 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

Land - 13
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Cantrip/Protection - 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gitaxian Probe

Business - 9
1 Burning Wish
1 Idea's Unbound
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

61 cards

I'm still just tweaking everything to see how 1'of business configurations end up once you are cantripping your way into a positive combination. For example, I've been playing with only 1 Doomsday because when it falls into my lap, its usually works the way you want it to. I think that having the option to Doomsday can be just as powerful as making it the focus of your game plan. However, diversifying business options means that when you have multiple business, they don't conflict and slow you down. One example I noticed that worked incredibly well is giving Pact the opportunity to be a business spell. I stopped my testing to write this particular post because I had a turn 4 situation in which I had LED in play and 2 ESGS. I Pact for Wolfbriar Elemental, and then I get a 4/4 and 5 2/2's, with 4 lands in my upkeep. 14 power out of a 0 mana spell thats usually a manasource, color fixer, or cantrip for Doomsday? You see where this is going. Pact is incredibly strong, but a single Wolfbriar can mean that you can stretch out your game a bit by playing the role of finding BW into Damnation, and then go for a mid to late game Wolfbriar. Normally you can't just cast it (G mana limitations) for incredible plays like you might think initially; its best used with LEDs, ESGs, and G-duals and a Pact once you've already hit 4 lands (which can happen turn 2 thanks to VE, making Wolfbriar viable as a business spell). It almost seems like a green empty the warrens with a elegant 4/4 body attached to it. Excellent card design. However, its a business spell that plays nicely with Tendrils as well, since you can mini-tendrils against aggro, and then multikicker your way into a combat race against aggro decks if you need to. I'm about to go back to testing, but Wolfbriar might also be good in some kind of Belcher variant, or Elves which is already playing Summoner's Pact.

[serenechaos]

I've been working with a friend on an ANT list with Explorer. We both feel that Doomsday is not supported by enough broken in Legacy to be as strong of an engine. However, it is certainly not unplayable, and you should pursue this list, as it seems to be coming along quite nicely.

Mostly I just wanted to mention the tech that my friend gave me, because any deck trying to abuse Explorer and Storm desperately needs it: Phyrexian Tower.

Also, I've been finding a miser Witness to be strong, because you can Culling-->Rit-->Pact for Witness--> Tendrils-->Witness-->Tendrils, or similar lines. But again, my list is ANT, not Doomsday. Not sure how well it would translate.

[Vacrix]

I'd play the miser Eternal Witness if there were more space. Wolfbriar is probably going to be stronger as business turn 2 and later, while Eternal Witness is more suitable for being the catalyst that produces a lethal spell chain. You can use it to recover in a real-game situation, which is where I've found it proves its worth more so than in goldfishing or even general testing. However, when you play with Ewit, you'll also want to try the Entomb package and PIF. You can basically condense Grinding Station as a deck into a 6 card package of 4 Entomb, 1 PIF, 1 Tendrils. Then, if you run into multiple business spells, for example PIF + Entomb, you can Entomb for Tendrils. When you flashback Entomb via PIF, you can find Narcomoeba if you need it to flashback CtW.

I don't know about Tower actually. Not having access to a sacrifice effect and/or that extra black mana isn't going to be nearly as relevant as not having an initial black for powerful turn 1 plays. Sure you could lead with Top and a Tower, but multiple towers means more cantrips means an entirely different deck structure. If you want to play Tower though, Tukatongue Thallid sounds like something you'll want to play, and likely Diabolic Intent as well since Tower seeks to focus on sacrifice effects. A sacrifice focus to the deck makes me think that Urborg Justice would be worth exploring.

[serenechaos]

Essentially, Tower is not so much for abusing sacrifice effects as it is for having a sac outlet that plays with the abnormal creature count, and is also freaking bonkers with Explorer. It's especially good for bomby Turn 2s, rather than explosive Turn 1s, but you can still get there with ESG/Petal-->Vet-->Tower-->go nuts.

All that being said, I currently run 2, and I wouldn't run more than that. It's essentially an uncounterable and repeatable (but Waste-able) CtW. The important thing to note is that it is much more powerful in an ANT build, because Turn 1 Vet, Turn 2 Tower=5 mana.

[Vacrix]

Agreed, but that combination is 5 at the expense of your turn 1 play on many occasions because its not a black IMS. I think that the deck functions best without Tower because the mana base feels more stable. CtW, Drit, and LED are plenty explosive as it is. In fact, I've had so much mana sometimes on turn 2, that if I lead with Top, I look, Pact (shuffles), play Explorer, look, crack Explorer (shuffles), look... sometimes looking through 9 cards means you've found a business spell and then you can dump it all into a Tendrils, or perhaps an EtW. Other times it means setting up a turn 4 kill, because you'll have to pay for Pact.

I'm about to try Dream Salvage and IGG as singletons in the IT focused business suite. Cards like Probe, Pact, and Therapy make me think that IGG is going to be a powerful pre-board business spell. I'm worried Dream Salvage will be dead whenever its there, but I don't know yet how often IT --> IGG, IT --> Salvage is going to be the optimal line of play.


EDIT:
I just executed an intriguing line of play in which I had a Pact, a LED, 2 ITS, and a bunch of floating mana from Drit/Culling/Explorer on turn 2. The line of play I just discovered was instead of turning a spare IT into a LED, you can turn both of them into LEDs, and then Pact for Wolfbriar because the Explorer means you will have 4 lands to pay Pact's upkeep. This would be a line of play you'd be forced into if you encountered a turn 0 Leyline or something. Pouring 3 LEDs into a Pact is incredible because it means you can go off with just LEDs and Pacts, independent of storm count, and also through multiple countermagic because your business spell costs 0. This is a useful line of play under Thalia or hate bears because you can shit an entire team with the right set up, and you have the lands (and basics to avoid Wasteland) to cantrip.

[Claymore]

I posted this in the MTGS thread, but a Phyrexian Tower in the board would be more fuel for a mainboard Living Wish.

[Kap'n Cook]

This deck looks sick and I will definitely be putting it together. While I personally would just call it Veteran's Day I'll leave that to Vacrix.

Vacrix are you liking this or the entomb package more?

[Alexeezay]

what about Gaea's Revenge (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Gaea%27s+Revenge&v=card&s=cname) as a Pactable finisher? good vs control

Also: why a basic mountain and not rather a second forest/swamp?

[Sloshthedark]

modo necro

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/295113#paper

this is just wow 3 decks together... but the idea of Veteran Explorer and Storm lives on

[P-E]

Ahah good catch Martin !
I hâve some spare leds i ll Sleeve this

[kombatkiwi]

That deck does look sick, makes me sad I sold my LEDs yesterday.
Seems like a slightly more grindy version with no Pacts could be the way to go.

[haganbmj]

They're a 0-post user on the forums by the way. They sent me a PM after that event was posted.
Exert from the message: "I finished yesterday 3-1 on Mtgo and today again, leaving me with a total of 0-2, 3-1, 3-1 in online tournaments so far..."

I like the Titan package - it's essentially a pair of bodies - which was part of the problem of some of the other Zenith targets.