Mono Black Control - Yes, I'm serious.

[Erdvermampfa]

Hi,

I have fun picking up janky deck concepts and tweaking them to get more or less competitive results. Since everyone plays TNN.dec, RUG or Combo right now, Mono Black doesn't seem too bad after all due to the huge number of removal and sac effects it can run. Additionally, being immune to Wasteland is always an advantage because it voids an important part of some strategies. Historically, MBC's problem has always been that it sucks against noncreature Permanents, but since the printing of Hero's Downfall, that should be somewhat mitigated.

MBC 2013/14

17 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland

4 Innocent Blood
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Infest
2 Damnation

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Phyrexian Arena
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Sorin Markov
2 Batterskull
2 Grave Titan

SB:
3 Tombstalker
4 Duress
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Pithing Needle


Given that you draw decently, it ought to be an easy one to succeed against RUG and other decks that rely on little threats in conjunction with disruption. The removal suite is supposed to be able to handle all creatures that are commonly played right now ( Mongoose, TNN, MoR, Geist ), hence most them are sacrifice effects. As stated before, I consider Hero's Downfall, while it's relatively expensive, as a asset because you can finally deal with planeswalkers aside discarding them. Previously, a resolved Jace basically meant game over because you can't apply pressure with so little threats.

I prefer Thoughtseize because at the end of the day, Inquistion and Duress just can not compete with the merits of flexibility Thoughtseize has. Inquistion is fine against aggro-control and sucks vs control while the opposite is true for Duress. Thoughtseize on the other hand is decent in every matchup. The lifeloss can be awkward, but so far it hasn't proved to be a decisive disadvantage.

The cardadvantage and -manipulation package should be self-explanatory because I can hardly think of better ways in black to generate CA & CQ other than Top, Arena and skeletal Scrying. Crucible is in there to open the possibility to wastelock the opponent (which is my answer to Punishing Fire engine btw ) and provides a constant stream of shuffle effects for top. Maybe Mishra's Factory could be an reasonable addition as well because it kills Planeswalkers and can fulfill the finisher role as well.

I consider Sorin and Batterskull to be the best choices in the finisher spot because one the one hand they're resilient to common removal, while on the other they regain you the life you lose from Thoughtseize, Arena and Scrying. Grave Titan is immune to Bolt and Decay while only vulnerable to Stop, but you should be able to discard that before you drop him and if it doesn't work you'll still get 2 2/2s which is still a acceptable deal.

I appreciate any suggestions or opinions on this deck.

[Sigar]

I am not trying to dismiss the idea of MBC in Legacy, but you're playing Sorin Markov.. A card that's not even good enough in Modern.. You also need more discard if you want to beat combo. I think Liliana of the Veil should be in here. Actually, isn't your deck just worse than the Smallpox deck?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Add Liliana of TV, then come back to tell us how it helped... :smile:
You got Arena and Crucible to fight her drawback, and the fact that it kills creatures is invaluable.
If only there'd be something similar to Genesis or whatever to feed Lili. Krovikan Horror? Meh. Undead Gladiator? Hm... It was played.

[Erdvermampfa]

I'm intrigued that you find Sorin bad. In fact, I consider him as pretty solid. He's mostly used for his first ability, because it acts as an repeatable Shock and 2 damage often suffice to kill opposing creatures right now. Also, the lifegain helps you to shift the state of the game to your favor. His Mindslaver can also create huge blowouts. Besides, he's another way to deal with planeswalkers. Frankly, I was actually leaning to increase his number up to 3 but you don't want to see him too early.

I'm aware that 8x discard + 0 pressure won't suffice to succeed against combo but that's what the sb is for, hence I run additional disruption and a reliable clock there. On a side note, Tombstalker sometimes gets boarded in against noncombo matchups as well, because they usually side out their removal and then he can serve as a pretty decent wall.

Yes, Liliana of the Veil is played by mana black decks but that doesn't necessarily mean that she's an autoinclude in every deck playing swamps. She's fine if you want to stop your opponent from recovering while applying pressure by creatures, but her main ability downright contradicts the actual gameplan of a control deck. And her merit of being an answer to Mongoose and TNN is barely relevant here, given how many sac-effects I already have.

I can't tell if Pox is better of worse, but really, aside from its colors and some cards, MBC has almost nothing in common with Pox, those decks actually pursue a whole different strategy.

[Erdvermampfa]

I address BedDeckPlayer's suggestion in my previous post as well.

[PirateKing]

Wouldn't something like the Black Devotion pile fit into what you are trying to do?
He also ran Arenas and Downfalls, with Gray Merchant as a win condition.
A lot of people dismissed his list as jank, but it ran some tools that might fit in this pile.

[ScatmanX]

There you go:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16885-Deck-The-Gate&highlight=the+gate

[SpeedOfDark]

Hi man, cool deck. I have messed around with these kind of decks a decent amount, and they can be pretty fun.

Since the cards played in these kind of decks are fairly metagame dependent, I will list a bunch of cards that can potentially fit in your deck that might be worth considering instead of giving specific advice.

Removal/Discard:
wretched banquet
ghastly demise
dismember
spinning darkness
go for the throat
victim of night
chainer's edict
toxic deluge
shriekmaw
fleshbag marauder
gatekeeper of malakir
funeral charm
inquisition of kozilek
Liliana of the veil


Lands:
urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
cabal coffers
volrath's stronghold

Recursion to consider:
shriekmaw/fleshbag marauder + volrath's stronghold or even with something like phyrexian reclamation if your deck is dense with creature/removal hybrids. Note that any creature recursion cards also have the added bonus of late game inevitability from your grave titans if they are killed/countered and not removed from the game.

Hope this is helpful!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I address BedDeckPlayer's suggestion in my previous post as well.

Yep, I wrote that I'm not sure if she's that good namely without any recursion engine other than CoW. Otoh, she might be pretty annoying for the combo players that try to sculpt hand. Is Liliana Vess viable for this matter?
I guess that Cabal Coffers would be the prime Wasteland target. They were good in Ext, for big Drain Life spells. But in Legacy... not really.
Shriekmaw is a good idea and so is the one-of Volrath's Stronghold, maybe. It's once again a Waste target, but this one actually does something. Otoh playing it just for the Shriekmaw seems weak and you definitely don't want more creatures, unless you'd go full-on with Nekrataal/Chiterring Rats/etc. effects. Which clearly can't be anyone's intention mainly because it's awful tactic.
But I'd play Shriekmaw and/or Edict-guy even in a pretty small number as it serves as a crappy removal and crappy wincon, which simply can't be bad coz it's flexible.
I thought that there some black Elspeth, a PW that makes constant stream of (even small) creatures, but then I realized that it's the WB Sorin. Sadface.
I like Chainer's Edict. I'm not sure if you really need another/different removal, but it's CA, though slow. Against decks like RUG, this might be good, you overload them with removal and then it sits in your gy waiting for them to topdeck creature in late game only to immediatelly sac it. But well, late game is not what' Legacy about, esp. considering RUG-like matchups.
I'm surprised you don't have any of Pithing Needle, Rathcet Bomb, and such, versatile answers to annoying things that are close-to-free.
Also, is Leyline of the Void good? Or Faerie Macabre? I heard that sometimes one may remove their Grisly and get a 2/2 flier out of it, but I understand that it's not the greatest priority.

Otoh, you know what serves you the best, I guess you played "a few" games with it. Just my feedback and thughts, before I'd dismember and dismantle your deck, I should play it. But I really think that few of my/community's ideas are quite reasonable, esp. those in removal dpt. like Shriekmaw (versatility) and Ch. Edict (card advantage).

EDIT: I see that exceopt for the Grave Titan (an StP target of choice), you're completely dead to Counterbalance. Is it even played today? And if it is, then what's your plan? I'd be tempted to simply throw one Emrakul into the pile... :cool::laugh:

[Erdvermampfa]

First of all, thank you for your participation and interest.

ScatmanX, you appear to miss the point. The Gate, at best, is a questionable hybrid of Suicide and MBC. I doesn't fullfill neither role particularly well, that's why it is actually pretty bad. Just because a deck has got some prominence and shares a few similarities with a 'new' approach, it doesn't necessarily mean that the initial is the way to go. It's the same as to the guy who suggested to play Pox instead.

PirateKing, I remember this pile vaguely from a while ago, perhaps you could post a link to it? I have to say though that the Devotion mechanic doesn't really appeal to me, mostly because I fear that I would be obliged to play cards that are either weak or don't fit in the theme (don't suggest Phyrexian Obliterator please).

Speed of Dark, thanks for your list of potential removal cards, although I knew most of them already, but I agree, the best choices are always those who address the metagame best. I felt that my removals of choice would fit the best to the current metagame, because they serve as reliable answers to almost all threats that are currently played, whereas cards like Smother, Victim of the Knight and go for the threat are insufficient against RUG and TNN. I have to admit though that BDP's suggestion to run Chainer's Edict is interesting though, mainly because it's a 2-1 and 7 mana is not that hard to reach. My only concern is that it's sorcery and I learned that having a sufficient amount of instant removal can be crucial when facing Karakas in conjunction with Thalia/Clique etc. However, I feel that the idea of running cards like Shriekmaw and Gatekeeper of Makakir is definitely worth a try due to the reasons BDP already mentioned, it's both flexible and gives your another source of inevitability when paired with recursion. It has to be acknowledged though that they would certainly cripple the manacurve. The deck is already pretty packed in the CC3 slot ( I switched to 2 Infest instead of the 3. Diabolic Edict) and running Fleshbag Marauder and Gatekeeper of Malakir instead of the aforementioned cards would certainly make it even worse. Another important downside of Shriekmaw is that it does hit neither Deathrite Shaman nor Dark Confidant, which is kind of bad to be honest. Phyrexian Revoker can be annoying too if they name Sensei's Divining Top.

BedDeckPlayer (I'll name your BDP from now on), I partly went into your proposal in the above part. As I stated before, I'll give the cards like Shriekmaw, Fleshbag Marauder and Gatekeeper of Malakir a try, although I have some reservations for the reasons I cited before. It's still uncertain whether the deck needs more board presence, but if that proves to be the case I'll definitely resort to Gatekeeper and Shriekmaw because after all, a removal suite containing 4 Shriekmaw (cc2) and 4 Gatekeeper (cc3) doesn't seem too bad due to the bonus of a creature body which can be used to stall or the finish the game more quickly. Furthermore, I can see the merits of Cabal Coffers as well, especially since there's so much broken stuff you can do in black by having a huge load of mana. As you mentioned an Eldrazi as well, I thought of an approach that runs a few more nonbasics (Coffers, Urborg, Volrath) and uses Emrakul or even Ulamog (Vindicate for MBC) to finish the game while Gatekeeper and Shriekmaw serve as removal and board presence. Thereby, Volrath's stronghold wouldn't be the only nonbasic which would make it more reliable. I think that such a deck is conceivably viable, but testing has to show it yet.



Do you disagree with my estimations or have you got some further suggestions? I still welcome every comment.

[nedleeds]

You made a list with Arena and Crucible with no LotV. I'd question your acumen in the field of mono black control.

[Erdvermampfa]

What does LotV stand for? Leyline of the Void? If so, why would that card be so important to run? Or are you speaking of Lord of the Void (wtf)?

[Illusions]

What does LotV stand for? Leyline of the Void? If so, why would that card be so important to run? Or are you speaking of Lord of the Void (wtf)?

Liliana of the Veil

I agree with the other posters, your curve is too high. Also, why only 3 wastelands? Why not run 8 fetches if you're running top? It'll give you much better card selection. Not to mention, you definitely want liliana, since she pressures your opponent's hands, whereas you can discard your lands and then play them with crucible. Also, you have way too much removal. You're going to be packing a lot of dead cards, and it won't help against combo. Again, this is why you want liliana; she doubles as both board control, and she rips combo decks apart if they get a slow start. I would also cut the grave titans and batterskulls, and probably use some combination of tombstalker, abyssal persecutor, and phyrexian obliterator. Maybe even gray merchant of asphodel. Either that, or run recursive threats like bloodghast that generate crazy card advantage, especially since you're running a crucible engine.

I forgot to mention: deathrite shaman. Seriously. Don't even run green, just use him for the ramp and the reach. He wins games by dealing 6-8 damage per game on average, and he makes you a turn faster, which is important in a deck like this.

[SpeedOfDark]

Shriekmaw's removal can be restrictive but it is almost never dead. How many times will you run into MB or all artifacts in a legacy tournament on average? Probably once, maybe twice if you are unlucky. Most decks that run artifact creatures or black creatures run other colours as well. Since your deck has plenty of removal, you can just hit the DRS/bob/revokers/etc with your other removal.

Although tbh, shriekmaw is a pet card of mine. I never build MB without a few copies of it and a volrath :P

[Darkenslight]

I suspect that your removal suite core should consist of:

Liliana of the Veil
Ultimate Price
Go for the Throat
Shriekmaw

The reason you go for Ultimate Price over the others is that there aren't that many cards that both it and the 'Maw can't hit (DRS or Emrakul), whereas GftT can hit both. GftT can hit everything but Revokers and Affinity. From the board, you can bring in Engineered Plague and other answers. You might also want Hero's Downfall in your suite, as it's a mono-black way to hit Jace and Tezzeret.

[SpeedOfDark]

The reason you go for Ultimate Price over the others is that there aren't that many cards that both it and the 'Maw can't hit (DRS or Emrakul), whereas GftT can hit both.

Rules stuff:

I am not sure if I am understanding you properly, but it sounds like you are saying that Ultimate price and shriekmaw cannot hit Emrakul but GftT can.

Emrakul has "protection from colored spells", so only shriekmaw in your list can kill him.

When you cast (or evoke) shriekmaw, the text "When Shriekmaw enters the battlefield, destroy target nonartifact, nonblack creature." is a triggered ability from a Permenant (shriekmaw). Since Emrakul is not an atrifact, not black and does not have protection from Permanents, it is a legal target and it will be destroyed by shriekmaw's triggered ability.

On that note, shriekmaw and fleshbag marauder are nice cards to have in hand when your opponent casts show and tell.

[Darkenslight]

Rules stuff:

I am not sure if I am understanding you properly, but it sounds like you are saying that Ultimate price and shriekmaw cannot hit Emrakul but GftT can.

Emrakul has "protection from colored spells", so only shriekmaw in your list can kill him.

When you cast (or evoke) shriekmaw, the text "When Shriekmaw enters the battlefield, destroy target nonartifact, nonblack creature." is a triggered ability from a Permenant (shriekmaw). Since Emrakul is not an atrifact, not black and does not have protection from Permanents, it is a legal target and it will be destroyed by shriekmaw's triggered ability.

On that note, shriekmaw and fleshbag marauder are nice cards to have in hand when your opponent casts show and tell.

AS if the Giant Elder God wasn't hardcore enough, I forget that he has protection from colored spells. :rolleyes:

[Erdvermampfa]

Liliana of the Veil

I agree with the other posters, your curve is too high. Also, why only 3 wastelands? Why not run 8 fetches if you're running top? It'll give you much better card selection. Not to mention, you definitely want liliana, since she pressures your opponent's hands, whereas you can discard your lands and then play them with crucible. Also, you have way too much removal. You're going to be packing a lot of dead cards, and it won't help against combo. Again, this is why you want liliana; she doubles as both board control, and she rips combo decks apart if they get a slow start. I would also cut the grave titans and batterskulls, and probably use some combination of tombstalker, abyssal persecutor, and phyrexian obliterator. Maybe even gray merchant of asphodel. Either that, or run recursive threats like bloodghast that generate crazy card advantage, especially since you're running a crucible engine.

I forgot to mention: deathrite shaman. Seriously. Don't even run green, just use him for the ramp and the reach. He wins games by dealing 6-8 damage per game on average, and he makes you a turn faster, which is important in a deck like this.

I don't think that the curve is too high to be honest. Keep in mind, this is a control deck, which means that your main goal is to survive the early game and win by superior (and high-costed) cards in the late game. The more you lower the overall cost of your spells, the more you'll probably end up with significantly weaker spells: I can't afford running too many 1 for 1- but have to rely on cards that actually create card advantage (Infest/Damnation). It's definitely important to pack some cheap spells that engage your opponent on the first turns as well, because otherwise he can just save his counterspells for your more powerful spells, but you always have to focus on keeping the business density as high as possibly (Sensei's Divining Top, TS, Hymn, Crucible, Arena, Scrying, BS, Grave Titan, Sorin, Damnation). However, I can concede that the removal count is a bit high considering that there's still a bit of combo and control in legacy, even though creature decks appear to represent the majority. Right now, I would agree that the deck looks one-sided on the creature.dec-matchup and that this could be alleviated by running more versatile cards, namely Liliana of the Veil, which was proposed by many of you. The more I think about her, the more I can conceive her to be an asset, mostly because of her mentioned versatility but also because of her ability to handle noncreature permanents. I'll have to think about what to cut from the deck to fit her in. Then on the other hand, I have to reject your cards suggestions for the the finisher role, because I deem the cards you proposed to be way inferior to those I have chosen. As far as the 'threat' density is concerned, it appears to be pretty low, which is the case with most control decks btw. For this reason, you have to make sure that your finishers are equipped with some sort of 'immunity' or at least resiliency against the commonly played removal (Stop, Bolt, Decay, Punishing Fire). All those cards your suggested to not provide this ability while Batterskull, Sorin and Grave Titan are all pretty invulnerable to removal. Altogether, I feel that your suggestions tend to be more suited for a midrange deck, which is clearly not the strategy of this deck.

SpeedofDark, my thought was also that Shriekmaw's restrictions could be of not much consequence because you still have a large number of removals beside of it, but from my experience this turns out to be true only to a limited extent in reality, because your either have no other removal at your disposal or are forced to handle your opponents threats immediately, which is particularly true for Dark Confidant to a smaller extent for Deathrite as well (turn 2 Shardless Agent, Liliana or turn 3 Jace can be game-decisive). That's why I still feel somewhat uncomfortable with running him as my primary removal. One has to acknowledge though that its potential against S&T is huge, which is why one should think of ways to make him work properly. How would your removal package look like if you were to run MBC right now?

Darkenslight, while I agree that Liliana of the Veil and Shriekmaw are good cards and should be included in a sensible way, I can't imagine why Ultimate Price and even Go for the Throat would be any better than the cards I already run. Their upside is that they're instants which can be advantageous sometimes, but on the other hand the cost 2 mana (Daze, Spell Pierce) and still have some limitations, which is why I consider Innocent Blood and Diabolic Edict as highly superior. Furthermore, I already have 3 Hero's Downfall in the deck because the ability to handle walkers is indeed an huge improvement. I contemplated about Engineered Plague as well, but figured that there was no real point of running in in the SB when my MD already addresses the creature-decks so extensively.



I repeat myself, but I still rejoice about any new comments in here, so feel free to post your opinions please!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm still not sure if Lili of TV is that great for your deck, as you lack recursion and have just few sources of CA. Maybe increase the number of fetches and CoWs, so that you may use the fetchlands for mana development, card filtering and feeding Liliana. But I wouldn't play too high number of them, as Stifle exists, life loss matters and real Swamps add mana.

[Tainted]

I played monoblack a while ago when the meta was infested with tempo deck because it's fun to deny their main strategy with only basic and no fetch. Some new card has been released so probably I'm missing something.
As first impression I agree that the deck is a little slow a lacking of win condition; I mean you've got only 2 batterskull (5 cmc) and 2 sorin + 2 Grave titan (6 cmc).
As a more deep analysis:

-Land:I'd play a couple more fetch, stifle is less used than a while ago so you can indulge in more fetch not only for taking away land from your deck but also for have more shuffle effect for SDTop, it's already been suggested but Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is really good even 2-3 it also make your fetch and wasteland give black mana.

-Removal:I think you're playng a little too many removal, against deck with few or no creature you've got 13 useless card, is nearly 25% of the deck. Liliana of the Veil enter here as 3-4, 4 is not bad because even if you have 2 in your hand and you resolve the first you can toy a little with -2 and play the other or just let it feed it to the -1. I used to play Gatekeeper of Malakir as an edict but with a 2/2 body to hit my opponent; Hero's Downfall is good enough for its ability to target PW but I still wouldn't go over 10 removal between Liliana, gatekeeper and downfall.

-Discard:It's ok here, I used to playCabal Therapy because I played 3 Bitterblossom but thoughtseize are fine. Remember Liliana help here with +1.

-Draw: I'd play 3 Top, it's good to have but I don't need more than 1; Phyrexian arena, I used to play Bob akaDark Confidant but if you keep your mana curve so high arena is better(but it cannot hit the opponent), about Skeletal Scrying, you said the gate is a suicide deck but with this, thoughtseize, arena and fetch you're on the same boat, and your only way to gain life is a batteskull after turn 5 or sorin after turn 6 if they are allowed to enter the battlefield or you're going to suicide before the opponent attack you once, I used 2Umezawa's Jitte but you need more creature to be able to use equipment reliably.

-Finisher: First you need more finisher, on analysis sorin is too slow if you start with -3 and proceed with +2 it take you 6 turn after the at least 6 turn(best case scenario where you make land drop each turn) probably if I had to pay 6 for sorin I'd rather pay 7 forKarn Liberated. Batterskull per se is a good card but again is slooow, you need 5 mana with no kind of acceleration, the fact that there are (nearly) no way to destroy basic land don't make 5-6 cmc finisher without acceleration good. I don't think Grave Titan is good in this deck.

The main problem of this deck is it slowness, if you're a control deck the most important thing is how to close games, is useless control and being incapable of close game. Remember that the greater weakness of black is it's impotence to topdeck mode and 4 of your finisher are creature so if the opponent topdeck a creature removal you'r probably screwed.
There are 2 way to close the game: the aggro way and the combo.

To be aggro you need more creature and you need them soon enough to start erode the opponent hp while you try to keep control of the game with discard and removal, remember you're black so no brainstorm-ponder and reactive game like blue can, you have to seize the moment.
So at the time I used 4 bob, 4 batman(Vampire Nighthawk), 3 gatekeeper, 4 Oliterator, 3 bitterblossom with 2 jitte but I don't know if meanwhile something better has been released. As an alternative you can try a more "Poxish" approach with bloodghast or nether spirit but the race will take a more time, more so those 2 creature suffer from Swords to Plowshares and Deathrite Shaman, I don't really recommend them nowadays.

The combo way is a lot harder for many reason, first of all the combo with black that come to mind are the dark depth(+Vampire Hexmage and/or Thespian's Stage) and Leyline of the Void+Helm of Obedience, the problem are that both combo require 2 pieces in game and you still have no way to protect them from topdeck answer, second to find them you have to rely on SDTop and arena because all good tutor are banned from the format.

Another tip, no matter what strategy or what card you want to you you need some accelerator, I used to run 4 Dark Ritual for explosive start with land ->Ritual->Thoughtseize+Bob/Hymn or to make an obliterator turn 2, but ritual have the downside of being less usefull lategame(well usually, in a deck with 5-6c mc finisher probably not). The alternative is Chrome mox it give you less explosiveness but more long term advantage.

[Hardcore]

If not poxing any then a "Lake Drain" strategy is another option.

[Erdvermampfa]

So I started to test this deck in 2016 again when I started to engage with MTG once more but I quickly realized that the approach I followed back in 2013 had to be reconsidered. TNN fell off in popularity and the contemporary Delver Deck now played a larger variety of creatures which all demand specific answers which my deck just couldn't provide. The format felt faster and more unforgiving in general so that cards like Batterskull had to be reevaluated. New strategies and cards like the BFZ Eldrazis demanded new answers.

The deck took a further big hit from the ban of Sensei's Divining Top which used to hold the deck together and made the high-CC cards like Grave Titan playable because it guaranteed land drops. The loss of Top made the fully reactive deck approach somewhat obsolete and I figured that it would be best to give the deck somewhat proactive capabilities to an extent even though it was supposed to stay a control deck. Being able to engage through the battlefield has proven to be indispensable for such a deck in my view so I now use more creatures as removal and finishers.

The lack of consistency due to the loss of SDT had to be remedied also and in search for solutions I was greatly satisfied with Night's Whisper which somewhat feels like a black Brainstorm because it let's you dig through the deck very efficiently.

Also some cards like Hero's Downfall had to be exchanged or at least reduced in numbers because their power level simply didn't prove to be high enough for Legacy standards. In order to solve the mentioned issues of consistency, new foes and general power creep which appeared against the background of a changed format I've recently arrived at the following list which is supposed to reflect the requirements of the current meta:

MBC 2018

19 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Innocent Blood
2 Disfigure
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Damnation

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Night's Whisper
3 Phyrexian Arena

2 Tombstalker
3 Phyrexian Totem
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin Markov

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Nevinyrall's Disk
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Extirpate
1 Duress
2 Dystopia

The cards are listed by functionality and not in terms of card types. I consider Gifted Aetherborn a highly flexible removal that has the invaluable advantage of giving your life points back which has turned out to be crucial against aggro and due to Phyrexian Arena and Night's Whisper. I am so fond of Aetherborn because it can answer most threats of the current format. The variety of these became too diverse that not a single black removal spell was capable of fullfill the role Aetherborn provides. The threat diversity is also the reason I split the CC1 removal into 2 Disfigure and 2 Innocent Blood, i.e. sacrifice-effects aren't as good anymore.

I currently do not play any cards that directly target Planeswalkers because trading 1 for 1 with Hero's Downfall felt very underpowered a lot of times. Instead I now rely on Phyrexian Totem for that purpose which is also an excellent win conditions in some matchups. However, it might turn out that either Downfall or To the Slaughter are still necessary as 2-ofs in conjunction with Totem to handle Jace, The Mindsculptor so I am not sure about that matter yet.

The deck now plays more discard because one the hand only 8 discard spells don't suffice in the matchups they are supposed to adresss, on the other hand the deck needed more business in the first turns, especially with SDT being gone. I do prefer both IoK and Duress over Thoughtseize because self-inflicted lifeloss seemed very contraproductive with the increased speed and efficiency of the field.

The number of highcosted spells has been reduced because without SDT (or Brainstorm) it became very important to be able to cast stuff from the earliest turns on. Tombstalker is played in the maindeck both as finisher and as pseudoremoval. A surpringly large amount of decks cannot handle it which makes it a good finisher. Furthermore it can relief you from a lot of pressure simply by providing a good wall, which btw is another reason Gifted Aetherborn is of so great value here.

It's obviously not trying to be a overly competitive deck (like the title even suggests) but Mono Black Control does offer a few advantages that even from the competitive perspective can make it appear worthwhile. First of your are largely unaffected or not as severly harmed by stompy strategies. Second black offers unique capabilities that other colors lack and that are of great value in the current meta, i.e. you get to play a lot of sacrifice effects that can handle both Marit Lage and TNN. Also, you get to play Phyrexian Arena which is a astonishing powerful card only few decks have the opportunity to play. It's also a very cheap way to get into the format of course.

I'm curious what you guys have to say about the deck and appreciate all feedback.

[Mr. Safety]

I played against you, using a close version of this, on Magic Workstation. I remember losing, can't remember what I played lol...

I think there are a couple of cards that would be decent here, probably more efficient:

Ratchet Bomb (instead of Nev Disk)
Fatal Push (instead of Disfigure)
I really think what the deck needs is Phyrexian Obliterator. Very good against fair matchups and a very fast clock. Another route is to jam Abyssal Persecutors and go crazy like it's 2015 with The Gate. It's honestly not a bad deck, it's just underpowered compared to other fair decks. Still, I imagine it would have a positive Delver matchup and would give Czech Pile a run.

EDIT:Triangle of War seems super spicy with Obliterator.

[Erdvermampfa]

Yeah I was actually surprised that MWS is still populated by legacy players, our matches were quite fun and you were playing the Dark Depths deck^^. Of course maindeck Diabolic Edict helps alot there. The current popularity of Dark Depths is indeed a blessing for this deck.

I appreciate that you remind me of Ratchet Bomb again which I have not tested enough to judge it definitely. I used to play it in Mono Blue control and remember it to be passable, but black offers better sweepers obviously. As for Disk I first and foremost play it as an answer to artifact or permanent heavy decks like all those Blood Moon piles and similiar stuff, it's not supposed to improve the aggro matchups as I think these are already adressed enough. Disk is in my view better for the purpose of hosing permanent-heavy, slow decks than the Bomb.

Fatal Push is probably superior to Disfigure indeed, although one will face issues of fulfilling the revolt condition with only 4 Wasteland sometimes. There are quite a few circumstances nonetheless where Disfigure is actually better than Push at times because the >CC2 can be quite restrictive against KoTR or Clique and the -2/-2 can change combat maths to your favor even though it doesn't actually kill the creature. That and the fact that Push is currently overpriced because of Standard is the reason I prefer Disfigure for now but I do concede that Fatal Push is the more powerful card, especially if Tarmogoyf ever became more popular again.

I could have bet that "The Gate" gets mentioned within the first replies :D but just like 5 years ago I'm still not convinced that these two decks share a lot in common except for a few cards. The Gate in my view is more of an aggro than a control deck since it's mostly a proactive deck and a pile of (bad) midrange goodstuff which I'm honestly not a big fan of. This deck however is supposed to be control and rather reactive since this reflects my preferences more. I do however admit that I took inspiration from the Gate by adopting a slight bit of proactivity and board presence in the form of Gifted Aetherborn and Tombstalker. I have actually considered Obliterator in the place of Tombstalker and would assume they're are mostly interchangeable, each having their own advantages of course (Tombstallker can block Delver, Flickerwisp and buys a turn against Marit Lage, Obliterator is obviously the more broken card). BtW instead of Triangle I would rather play Arena before sacrificing maindeck space for shenanigans like that^^.

I'm curious what decks you refer to when you speak of those "other fair decks". The current list is indeed intended to be decent against the two major fair decks that you mentioned.

edit: If anyone is still playing MBC as well and wants to share his/her version of MBC in this thread then feel free to do so, I will gratefully take inspiration from that.

[Mr. Safety]

Nev Disk makes sense, in light of what you want it to do. Good catch on Arena, I thought it required RG to activate (Contested Cliffs? That might be the one I'm confusing it with.)

Other fair decks: Stoneblade, Maverick, Miracles...basically anything with access to Swords to Plowshares. Their threats are more powerful, too. Some of them (knight) don't even need to attack to make your life miserable. Death and Taxes plays a lot of Mirran Crusaders lately (and has access to Swords to Plowshares as well.) Batterskull creates a standoff as well...they will take 5 if you attack, but crack back for 4 and gain 4. You lose that race.

It is indeed great against Delver and Czech pile...as is Pox, really (the closest deck to this, honestly.)

[mgrinshpon]

You run a lot of instants and sorceries, plus delve creatures. This could be the kind of deck that wants a Bösium Strip to let the deck really push through in the late game.

[compacta_d]

I've been looking for some mono black control list that ISN'T POX.

The Gifted Aetherborn seems odd as main creature other than tombstalker with board wipes and removal.

Thought about Ports? GQs? I feel like more land disruption plus small pox may fit in some slots.

Dark rits for speed not worth the disadvantage?

Lili last hope is also crazy removal v creature decks and a win con. I'd consider that as well.

[Weapon X]

Night of souls betrayal. I'll start there as black has a host of powerful enchantments.

[Erdvermampfa]

Thanks for the plenty of replies guys.

Mr.Safety: I do agree that many of the "fair" decks you named do indeed have access to more powerful cards, mostly because they're blue. I do however argue that this deck was built with those matchups in mind and it's definitely not as if it was hopelessly inferior to Stoneblade for example. Many of those midrange decks cannot keep up or are not prepared for cards like Phyrexian Arena or Damnation[/card]. Stoneblade also relies a lot on TNN which isn't a problem for this deck either. From my experience the fair midrange matchups are even to slightly advantageous, especially the nonblue ones. As for the similiarities with Pox, yes, with the inclusion of [cards]Phyrexian Totem it has indeed become closer to that but it still feels and plays more like a traditional control deck and I will watch out that it doesn't become too similiar. I know Pox claims to be control too but my understanding of control forbids to play cards like Smallpox which harm your own board and hand development as much as it does your opponent's. This deck is distinct from Pox because it actually tries to be control in the traditional sense instead of abusing cards like Smallpox by breaking their symmetry.

mgrinshpon: I didn't even know of that card so thanks for informing me about it. I also appreciate that you suggested a rather unusual card which is way off the current mainstream of the format. I suppose that its purpose would be the one of an additional card advantage engine and therefore somewhat competes with Phyrexian Arena for those slots. My guess is that Arena is superior to Bösium Strip in that role because it's less conditional (after all the deck isn't all about instant/sorceries) and requires less mana investment. Arena actually puts your opponent under pressure because it's an question many decks have to answer. Thus it can also be seen as a somewhat "proactive" threat which are so crucial to have as I've mentioned above. Bösium Strip on the other hand doesn't seem as intimidating to me at least on paper, but I could miss something of course. One advantage however would probably be that it doesn't cost life like Arena which im increasingly unhapp about because it forces you to incorporate at least some source of lifegain in the deck and makes it also nearly unplayable in many situations against aggressive decks.

compacta_d: I'm pleased that someone else is interested in mono black control as well. I do not view Gifted Aetherborn as my "primary creature" (though it can act as that in some MU) but as a quite flexible removal and source of lifegain. I simply realized that the fully reactive approach to handle your opponents creatures isn't viable when those are as diverse as in Legacy. Thought-Knot Seer, Young Pyromancer, Gurmag Angler and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben each require more or less specific answers that no single black removal can provide reliably. At that point I realized that the deck can be relieved from alot of pressure by using a deathtouch creature for that purpose. Aetherborn does a similiar job which Wall of Blossoms used to do for the (very) old GBW control decks. Its lifegain ability is a nice coinincidence which saves some deckspace because with Arena, Whisper and Deluge you have to have some source of lifegain to them viable in some matchups. Even if Aetherborn gets bolted it has virtually saved you 3 life. Furthermore the fact that it often draws your opponent's removal on it make is not that bad because this saves Totem and Tombstalker from those and makes them solid win conditions on the first place. As for additional Landdestruction: I cannot imagine that this would benefit the deck much. While there are quite a lot decks that rely a lot on their lands in legacy nowadays (Eldrazi), the majority of times it will be rather mediocre because we all now how little mana decks like Delver require. Also 4 colorless lands I think are already pushing the decks boundaries because it's essential to have access to BB on turn two so I can't imagine that adding additional colorless lands such as Rishadan Port would work well. Of course you could play Urborg but that would make the manabase quite fragile. If you want to use more land desctruction I'd recommend 1-2Dust Bowl in addition to 3-4 Wastelands because that card can sometimes win on it's own against decks like Post or even against the 4cGoodstuffDeck. Regarding Dark Ritual I have to concede that I haven't tested it enough to assess it adequately but its incorporation would make it necessary to build the deck from bottom up again because it overthrows the whole manacurve thing. Right now I'm not overly dissatisfied with the speed or the manacurve of the deck so I do not plan to use it in the current version of the deck. This was however not the case when I still played stuff like Grave Titan so maybe Dark Ritual could make a different approach feasible. Liliana, the last Hope is definitely a viable option and I will have to test her more intensely, especially with Aetherborn, but the card is also kind of slow as a win condition.

Weapon X: I was aware of Night of Soul's Betrayal as well and also thought about using it somewhow but I can't find space for it. It somewhat competes with other sweepers like Toxic Deluge and Damnation and I consider those as superior to Soul's most of the time. I know how good it is against D&T but overall I'd guess the latter two are better for that role. It does however make Young Pyromancer and Snapcster rather useless so it shouldn't be dismissed too early I think. If DRS was a 1/1 instead of a 1/2 things might actually look very different. I don't like how it shrinks my own creatures though.

[Weapon X]

Chains of Mephistopheles, the abyss, nether void... I was scratching the surface.

[ReAnimator]

Collective Brutality seems like something worth testing out in here as it plays a lot of rolls. Life gain, removal, disruption, and sometimes all three. Most of your other spells aren't flexible like it is, they are either removal or disruption. I'd test out 2 maybe even 3 of them.

[Erdvermampfa]

Collective Brutality seems like something worth testing out in here as it plays a lot of rolls. Life gain, removal, disruption, and sometimes all three. Most of your other spells aren't flexible like it is, they are either removal or disruption. I'd test out 2 maybe even 3 of them.

This card's flexibility is definitely useful but what would you cut for it? Collective Brutality is surely flexible but each of it's modes on their own aren't particularly strong and it's also sorcery speed which is more important than it seems. I don't think its flexibility would outweigh its downsides of sorcery speed and somewhat mediocre effects but I have to admit that I haven't tested it yet. So then again what would you cut for it.?

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the plenty of replies guys.

Mr.Safety: I do agree that many of the "fair" decks you named do indeed have access to more powerful cards, mostly because they're blue. I do however argue that this deck was built with those matchups in mind and it's definitely not as if it was hopelessly inferior to Stoneblade for example. Many of those midrange decks cannot keep up or are not prepared for cards like Phyrexian Arena or Damnation[/card]. Stoneblade also relies a lot on TNN which isn't a problem for this deck either. From my experience the fair midrange matchups are even to slightly advantageous, especially the nonblue ones. As for the similiarities with Pox, yes, with the inclusion of [cards]Phyrexian Totem it has indeed become closer to that but it still feels and plays more like a traditional control deck and I will watch out that it doesn't become too similiar. I know Pox claims to be control too but my understanding of control forbids to play cards like Smallpox which harm your own board and hand development as much as it does your opponent's. This deck is distinct from Pox because it actually tries to be control in the traditional sense instead of abusing cards like Smallpox by breaking their symmetry.

I agree! We are saying the same thing, really. All I mean to say is this: you're trying to claim some territory that other non-blue decks are also trying to claim, like Maverick, Lands, and D&T. While you are well equipped to deal with the top-tier blue decks you will actually struggle a little against the other decks that are well equipped to deal with top-tier blue. You're fighting for the same small section of the meta-game; all I'm saying is to keep this in mind when evaluating card choices so you can try and find some overlapping functionality that deals with blue and non-blue matchups.

[ReAnimator]

This card's flexibility is definitely useful but what would you cut for it? Collective Brutality is surely flexible but each of it's modes on their own aren't particularly strong and it's also sorcery speed which is more important than it seems. I don't think its flexibility would outweigh its downsides of sorcery speed and somewhat mediocre effects but I have to admit that I haven't tested it yet. So then again what would you cut for it.?


I'd probably cut Disfigures honestly. Though i would have cut those for pushes already and run a few fetches (i know you've covered this).

If you actually go hard on something like brutality, that's a lot of extra incidental life gain, maybe enough to support Thoughtseize over IOK. I've always been super disappointed in IOK in legacy. Every time you need to pluck a Force or Jace or Batterskull and can't it's just such a feel bad, and usually loses the game.

[Jander78]

10 discard spells in your deck seems like overkill. Do you find them dead in hand a lot?

Have you thought about going with the Cabal Coffers plan to power out finishers like Consume Spirit or Suffer the Past? I used to run a MBC deck a while back and loved keeping the board clear until able to power out a big finisher.

Here's the MBC deck I ran circa-2010 with decent results.


4 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 The Abyss
3 Damnation
4 Innocent Blood
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

1 Grim Tutor
2 Sign in Blood <- I liked this to serve as a finishing Shock in certain situations over Night's Whisper
4 Phyrexian Arena

1 Sorin Markov
3 Consume Spirit
2 Suffer the Past

4 Dark Ritual <- This was needed to get a jump with an early Abyss or 1st turn Arena

19 Swamp
3 Cabal Coffers


Sideboard:
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
1 Damnation
2 Staff of Domination

[Erdvermampfa]

MrSafety: The deck isn't intended to be only decent against the typical blue fair decks but against a larger share of the field, namely control (Miracles) and to an extent combo matchups too, that's why there is such a large number of discard and stuff like Phyrexian Totem. I didn't specifically build the deck to only do well against fair "blue" decks (which is hard enough already because of Jace) but to cover a preferably large variety of archetypes which is the basic idea of control anyways. Other decks like the ones you mentioned may do this better if only because of a larger pool of playable cards but I can assure you that I took into account all the matchups when I made the card choices. It particularly surprises me that you think the deck suffers against other fair decks, I heard Damnation, Toxic Deluge and Phyrexian Arena tend to be strong against those ;) .

ReAnimator: Cutting Disfigures for a CC2 (!) sorcery speed and highly conditional removal seems like a very bad idea. The CC1 and instant speed are way too important in most circumstances because it's needed to handle the taxing effect of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben[/card] and to be able to resolve it against Daze and Spell Pierce. Delver, Young Pyromancer and also DRS have to be removed as soon as possible most of the times so waiting for additional lands to safely cast the Brutality spell seems very awkward. The lower casting cost of Disfigure is much more important than the occasional merits of Brutality in my view, at least with the current arrangement of removal spells. Obviously it could be different if you went an other approach or like you said if you "go hard on Collective Brutality". I can definitely relate to your objections against IoK though, there are indeed quite a few situations where it sucks because you can't pick Jace or stuff but that's why I went for [cards]Duress in addition to it. Thoughtseize just isn't sustainable with Night's Whisper, Arena and Deluge because I would Shock myself with almost every card I play and honestly Night's Whisper is much more important for the deck than TS.

Jander78: Thanks for posting your list, it looks a lot like those MBC decks you would meet at that time you said you used to play it and there's definitely stuff that is appealing in that list like the Coffers Plan or Dark Ritual which should be sustainable with 4 Arenas. No Hymn to Tourach seems quite dubious though I mean it's one of the few advantages of MonoB that you can play this card so easily but I see that you got other means to gain card advantage with that list. Altogether it seems like the more traditional control approach that tries to be mostly reactive and I have to admit I prefer that play style too but like I've tried to convey above I'm currently sceptical about that strategy because I don't think MBC offers good enough cards that would make this strategy viable in the current format. 2010's legacy is a lot different from the one of today. I might try it out later though because honestly the list looks a lot like it would suit my preferences and I haven't thoroughly tested Coffers anyways. Have you had experience with a list like this one more recently?
As for the 10 Discard spells I have to say that as of now drawing them later on hasn't been a problem at all for me. I'm much happier that now with 6 CC1 discards the deck can do something substantial early on more often. My current list can also close the game more quickly because of Totem, Stalker and Aetherborn so it's not forced to drag the game out into the lategame where those discard spells would indeed suck. That's probably the reason you are sceptical about those because that would certainly happen a lot with the approach you follow with your list I think.

[Mr. Safety]

Other fair decks: Stoneblade, Maverick, Miracles...basically anything with access to Swords to Plowshares. Their threats are more powerful, too. Some of them (knight) don't even need to attack to make your life miserable. Death and Taxes plays a lot of Mirran Crusaders lately (and has access to Swords to Plowshares as well.) Batterskull creates a standoff as well...they will take 5 if you attack, but crack back for 4 and gain 4. You lose that race.

That was specifically referring to Phyrexian Obliterator, sorry if I wasn't clear. I agree, the deck is solid against the field. Just making a point about Obliterator.

[Jander78]

Jander78: Thanks for posting your list, it looks a lot like those MBC decks you would meet at that time you said you used to play it and there's definitely stuff that is appealing in that list like the Coffers Plan or Dark Ritual which should be sustainable with 4 Arenas. No Hymn to Tourach seems quite dubious though I mean it's one of the few advantages of MonoB that you can play this card so easily but I see that you got other means to gain card advantage with that list. Altogether it seems like the more traditional control approach that tries to be mostly reactive and I have to admit I prefer that play style too but like I've tried to convey above I'm currently sceptical about that strategy because I don't think MBC offers good enough cards that would make this strategy viable in the current format. 2010's legacy is a lot different from the one of today. I might try it out later though because honestly the list looks a lot like it would suit my preferences and I haven't thoroughly tested Coffers anyways. Have you had experience with a list like this one more recently?
As for the 10 Discard spells I have to say that as of now drawing them later on hasn't been a problem at all for me. I'm much happier that now with 6 CC1 discards the deck can do something substantial early on more often. My current list can also close the game more quickly because of Totem, Stalker and Aetherborn so it's not forced to drag the game out into the lategame where those discard spells would indeed suck. That's probably the reason you are sceptical about those because that would certainly happen a lot with the approach you follow with your list I think.
The list I posted is outdated and I wouldn't dare try it as-is in today's environment. I posted it as a reference point on using the Cabal Coffers plan, since I think that's a very strong route to consider. I agree, Hymn + Duress are the two most important disruption pieces to run. 8 might be the right discard to run, maybe 10 if you consider Collective Brutality, since it can serve other purposes as well. Consume Spirit (or maybe Corrupt) is good mid-game to gain back the life you lose early on keeping control of the board state.

[mgrinshpon]

mgrinshpon: I didn't even know of that card so thanks for informing me about it. I also appreciate that you suggested a rather unusual card which is way off the current mainstream of the format. I suppose that its purpose would be the one of an additional card advantage engine and therefore somewhat competes with Phyrexian Arena for those slots. My guess is that Arena is superior to Bösium Strip in that role because it's less conditional (after all the deck isn't all about instant/sorceries) and requires less mana investment. Arena actually puts your opponent under pressure because it's an question many decks have to answer. Thus it can also be seen as a somewhat "proactive" threat which are so crucial to have as I've mentioned above. Bösium Strip on the other hand doesn't seem as intimidating to me at least on paper, but I could miss something of course. One advantage however would probably be that it doesn't cost life like Arena which im increasingly unhapp about because it forces you to incorporate at least some source of lifegain in the deck and makes it also nearly unplayable in many situations against aggressive decks.

If you look the wording on the 'strip, you'll notice that it allows you to cast the top card of your graveyard as though it had flashblack as long as it is an instant or sorcery, potentially giving you 2+ cards a turn rather than Arena's one-of.

[Erdvermampfa]

What do you think of this list? I've come to the conclusion that the previous list went a bit too far into the aggro-control direction and that it lacked in those parts which should be control's strength. It was by no means a bad list but was dependent on closing the game early because the lategame capabilities were kind of lacking aside from the two planeswalkers. There has to be some sort of inevitability in a control deck so that this strategy works out. It makes no sense to drag out the game and to find yourself in a bad position once the dust has cleared. Thus I decided to go back a bit into the initial direction or conception of this deck. Now that DRS is banned, the format should also become a bit slower so that this approach is also more viable again.

16 Swamp
1 Blighted Fen (locks out the opponent with crucible
3 Wasteland (wastelock with crucible)
3 Bloodstained Mire (CA with crucible)

2 Innocent Blood
2 Disfigure
3 Diabolic Edict (good against "combo, ok vs midrange and aggro)
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Damnation

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Liliana, Death's Majesty (hard to get rid of win condition and most importantly it's some kind of board presence)
2 Sorin Markov (lifegain matters)
3 Phyrexian Totem (main answer to Planewalkers, esp. Jace)

3 Twisted Abomination (instead of Night's Whisper because lifeloss is awkward; Twisted can be brought back with Liliana)
3 Phyrexian Arena
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mastermind's Acquisition

SB:
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Nev's Disk
3 Exirpate
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Pithing Needle