[Deck] Sneak and Show

[Deckerator]

Do you think Sneak & Show is the right combo deck for the moment? I thought about playing it in a local event at the end of the month. I dont know the meta because it is the first time legacy tournament.
I removed the Gitaxian Probe and try 2x Blightsteel Colossus and 2x Dig through time. This is the list i wanna try

[GoblinZ]

Do you think Sneak & Show is the right combo deck for the moment? I thought about playing it in a local event at the end of the month. I dont know the meta because it is the first time legacy tournament.
I removed the Gitaxian Probe and try 2x Blightsteel Colossus and 2x Dig through time. This is the list i wanna try

there is no reason playing suboptical cards like BSC....

[Daize]

Only if you know how to use Gitaxian Probe, you get how good it is, I guess...

[JPA]

I'm not sure about Overmaster, since it's against my philosophy of not playing dead main deck cards. Maybe if you play in a small tournament with a certain expected metagame (lots of main deck REBs) it might be a good choice.

Also I don't like cutting Spell Pierce for Flusterstorm at all. Miracles is still one of the 3 best / most popular decks in the format and not being able to 1 for 1 a SDT, Counterbalance or Jace seems really bad. I could see a 2/2 split or something, but would never cut Spell Pierce completely.

Johnson's sideboard seems fine, although Elesh Norn is much clunkier and less versatile than a 3rd Pyroclasm, in my opinion. Maybe he couldn't find a third one for the tournament. :tongue:

[whataboutcats]

Elesh Norn doesn't make sense in this deck to me, maybe I'm missing something though. Overmaster isn't a dead card in any matchup since worse case scenario is you draw a card for R. I guess I see what you're saying though - maybe it's better to have more Spell Pierce/etc in place of them mainboard.

As far as including Telepathy goes.. Gitaxian Probe is good because the only cost to the card is 2 life, you're not -1 card. If you're going to use a card to get information, why not just use that slot as the answer to whatever problem you're looking for? Knowing your opponent has a Containment Priest in their hand doesn't help you when you just used a slot on something that isn't Pyroclasm.

[nodahero]

Elesh is a concession to the DnT matchup. You can SnT her in and if you have access to a single Force you can probably ride her all the way to a win or at least give yourself such an insane amount of time winning becomes trivial.

As for Overmaster, I agree it is highly meta dependent; I also think the Pierce v Fluster argument is also meta dependent. If Storm stays on the uptick I think flusterstorm is fine however then Overmaster is worse anyway in that meta... perhaps there is some weird triangle of balance we need to examine.

[JPA]

Elesh is a concession to the DnT matchup. You can SnT her in and if you have access to a single Force you can probably ride her all the way to a win or at least give yourself such an insane amount of time winning becomes trivial.


They play 3 Karakas and some O-Rings. Progenitus is the unbeatable fatty against D&T (even though raceable in corner-cases).

[Daize]

Hmmm, the lists all seem metadependent, and instead of just pasting random decklists (no offense!) we could maybe gather up a metagame flexslot main/sideboard discussion/guide.

Concerning the sideboard above: the following slots all three require SnT:
2 Omniscience
1 Elesh Norn, Great Cenobyte

In that case, why wouldn't it be replaced with 2 progenitus and 1 extra Pyroclasm?



Unfinished part & just random thoughts:

Maindeck flex-slots
2 Dig Through Time (other combo decks...?)
2 Overmaster (REB/Pyroblast, Miracles)
X Flusterstorm (Storm)

Sideboard
3 Pyroclasm (D&T, SFM, goblins, dredge)
2 Blood Moon (D&T, non-basic land heavy decks)
2 Omniscience (D&T)
2 Through the Breach (Miracles?)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Dredge, Reanimator)

[Daize]

How bad would it be if we'd slow down the deck a tad increasing the coloured mana base, allowing for Volcanic Fallout? Contamination Priest being a bitch here and there.

[GoblinZ]

I once played 2 massacre wurm in sb. It nearly does the same thing as Elesh norn and is immune to karakas. With this sideboard I don't need board out snt against dnt since I can simply side out 2 Griselbrand.

But I assume snt into Elesh Norn is better than snt into Emmy in some situations against ur delver, little weenie cannot survive under her. And if they has pyromancer and a lot of tokens, snt into Emmy may not win u game.

But anyway pyroclasm just deals with everything.

Unless your meta is flooded with dnt I don't think u need this kind of thing.

Also as for volcanic fallout, is it realistic to leave 1rr open while combo out?

[JPA]

Maindeck flex-slots
2 Dig Through Time (other combo decks...?) Dig Through Time isn't meant for specific matchups, it's more a general "super-cantrip" and very good in grindy / long matches.
2 Overmaster (REB/Pyroblast, Miracles)
X Flusterstorm (Storm) Reanimator, Mirror, UR Delver (where it's basically a slightly better Spell Pierce)

Don't forget about Fire // Ice. I still love it as a 1-of, for reasons written down in this thread before (buying time against UR, tapping down Karakas, breaking Revoker+Karakas lock, etc.).

Sideboard
3 Pyroclasm (D&T, SFM, goblins, dredge)
2 Blood Moon (D&T, non-basic land heavy decks) I think Blood Moon is one of the weaker sideboard cards right now, since UWR strategies (many of them with basic lands) have replaced the BUG decks from 2013/ early-mid 2014. It can still be awesome and win the game alone in certain, less common matchups, though (Lands, BUG.dec, Deathblade).
2 Omniscience (D&T) Also for D&T, yes, but mostly for Containment Priest decks. Pretty strong in the mirror and against combo in general, where you want to win on the spot.
2 Through the Breach (Miracles?) , Mirror, Death and Taxes, Reanimator, Blade.dec
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Dredge, Reanimator) Elves!

You can read about other sideboard options in the primer on page 1. Most of them are still viable, even though that section was last updated in early 2014. I might update the whole primer after my USA trip in two/three weeks.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Dew
...but right now I'm tinkering with some interesting innovations and old favorites. I'll tell you about it once I find something worth sharing.

OK, let me put some thoughts on the table. As you said, are old favorite innovations that worth sharing.
My favorite deck list contains :
10 enablers, adding 2 Through the Breech maindeck. The instant speed allow me to block with a Griselbrand, kill the attacker and draw 7 free cards.
Because of the high casting cost of Through the Breach and Sneak Attack, I dropped Petals, for 3 Grim Monoliths. Grims are faster than petals. They can't help you win the same turn that Griselbrand comes into play, but can handle good enough the soft counters like Daze or Spell Pierce due to the high amount of mama they produce. With Grim Monolith you can cast Sneak Attack or Through the Breech in second turn.
An other very interesting card I advise to take a glance, is Stifle. Stifle works perfectly as defending and attacking card. You can always counter the Sneak Attack's and TTB's triggered ability, so the creature stays in game.
And at last but not least next to 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders, 2 Sensei's divining Top. You need this card a lot. Casting first turn with a Sol Land, can really built your hand.

Στάλθηκε από το SM-N9005 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[JPA]

Dew

OK, let me put some thoughts on the table. As you said, are old favorite innovations that worth sharing.
My favorite deck list contains :
10 enablers, adding 2 Through the Breech maindeck. The instant speed allow me to block with a Griselbrand, kill the attacker and draw 7 free cards.
Because of the high casting cost of Through the Breach and Sneak Attack, I dropped Petals, for 3 Grim Monoliths. Grims are faster than petals. They can't help you win the same turn that Griselbrand comes into play, but can handle good enough the soft counters like Daze or Spell Pierce due to the high amount of mama they produce. With Grim Monolith you can cast Sneak Attack or Through the Breech in second turn.
An other very interesting card I advise to take a glance, is Stifle. Stifle works perfectly as defending and attacking card. You can always counter the Sneak Attack's and TTB's triggered ability, so the creature stays in game.
And at last but not least next to 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders, 2 Sensei's divining Top. You need this card a lot. Casting first turn with a Sol Land, can really built your hand.

Στάλθηκε από το SM-N9005 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

You proposed the same stuff a little over a year ago in the old thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18871-DTB-Sneak-Attack/page97). My opinion hasn't changed and I don't want to discuss it again.

[Daize]

Wow, TC banned and DTT left alone. Good/bad for SnS?

[Grand Superior]

Keeping Dig Through Time is very good, but other decks losing Treasure Cruise means that we'll see more Spell Pierces, targeted discard, Liliana, and other annoyances that other people shaved from their decks to fit Cruise in. I still think Sneak and Show is very good in the format but I actually feel like we were slightly better positioned in the Treasure Cruise meta.

[Brentane]

Wow, TC banned and DTT left alone. Good/bad for SnS?

It's good because less aggro through Delver as well as card advantage for them becoming harder to obtain.

I want to know how you people all obtained your Sneak & Show decks? I currently have Reanimator and considering in changing it to S&S, but I am missing the duals, sol lands, Show & Tell, and Sneak Attack.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Mostly Chuck E. Cheese tickets, although I saved up lunch money also.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Daize]

I'm actually in the process of making Big Red, and when you've spent that money it's "easy" to start thinking about getting the other cards. Addiction would do the rest :p.

[ang3lfir3]

I want to know how you people all obtained your Sneak & Show decks? I currently have Reanimator and considering in changing it to S&S, but I am missing the duals, sol lands, Show & Tell, and Sneak Attack.

Back in 1998 ... traded for the bulk of what is now and was then sneak and show. Bought the Griselbrands and Emrakuls after taking my break,
from Invasion to RTR. No one ever leaves MTG for good.

[Unassigned]

I want to know how you people all obtained your Sneak & Show decks? I currently have Reanimator and considering in changing it to S&S, but I am missing the duals, sol lands, Show & Tell, and Sneak Attack.

I've been playing since Alpha... I sold everything back in 2007 after my wife and I got together because I hadn't played in almost 2 years. A few years later, I got a job where people invited me one evening to a home draft, won the draft and got the itch again. I ended up contacting a friend of mine who kept all of his cards from "back in the day" and made him an offer on everything, letting him know I wasn't going to pay even close to retail because I wanted to play the game competitively and not make a profit off of him.

[Unassigned]

... decks losing Treasure Cruise means that we'll see more Spell Pierces, targeted discard, Liliana, and other annoyances that other people shaved from their decks to fit Cruise in. I still think Sneak and Show is very good in the format but I actually feel like we were slightly better positioned in the Treasure Cruise meta.

Agreed. With Cruise gone, the default decks are going to be Miracles, BUG Delver, Shardless BUG and Dredge. Burn will likely see a rise in popularity as well, considering how it has a strong matchup against the BUG decks. The Delver deck players with limited card pools are going to remain with pre-Cruise UR lists.

Anybody here going to Indy for the "last hoorah" Legacy open for a while?

[nodahero]

I am planning on going to Indy with either this or my personal variant on Jund Depths featuring Top over Faithless Looting. My decision will basically come down to how prevalent combo appears in Indy.

[Kanti]

I've been playing since Alpha... I sold everything back in 2007 after my wife and I got together because I hadn't played in almost 2 years. A few years later, I got a job where people invited me one evening to a home draft, won the draft and got the itch again. I ended up contacting a friend of mine who kept all of his cards from "back in the day" and made him an offer on everything, letting him know I wasn't going to pay even close to retail because I wanted to play the game competitively and not make a profit off of him.

This. You'd be amazed as to how many collections are collecting dusts in a closet. I've had an untouched SnT, Sneak Attack, Tabernacle, Cradle, and some other junk just sitting in boxes in my closet for +10 years. And I'm only 22. Got em all from a bud, who got em from a bud. Makes me want to travel the USA buying people attic MTG collections in search of gold.

[JPA]

Congratulations to dcosiem for winning the DC Legacy IQ with this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79216)!

[ivanpei]

Looks like a fairly standard list. What's the consensus on Dig Through Time vs Intuition?

[dcosiem]

Thank you JPA!

[pinkfrosting]

Dig has a big probability element in only looking at 7 cards. If you have the enabler and need the fatty or vice versa, there's a reasonable chance you'll see what you need, but it might not be the one you want. You can also get lucky and get what you need + a force or something. You can also get unlucky and whiff.

Intuition is costlier but it gets exactly what you need and only whiffs in rare situations where you can't get 3 copies from your deck. Even then it has utility.

[Unassigned]

Thank you JPA!

Waiting on that report. :-P

[dcosiem]

Waiting on that report. :-P

I don't feel like doing a report. I'm sorry. There's too much to write.

[JPA]

I don't feel like doing a report. I'm sorry. There's too much to write.

:frown:

[Daize]

Dude, record yourself instead if you're not too shy (can be without video) :-). That's a LOT easier and more comfortable innit?

[Deckerator]

How is the burn match up with this deck? I played some matches and it was really hard too win.
Have you any advices?

[Unassigned]

How is the burn match up with this deck? I played some matches and it was really hard too win.
Have you any advices?

Put a big monster into play before you die. :wink:

[DrHealex]

Put a big monster into play before you die. :wink:

Don't forget Leyline sideboards. :wink:

[JPA]

How is the burn match up with this deck? I played some matches and it was really hard too win.
Have you any advices?

Aside from obvious stuff like countering lethal or 4 damage+ burn spells, here are some tips:

- Always FoW early Goblin Guides / Eidolons unless you have the combo ready for turn 1/2/3.

- For early Show and Tells, if you can choose between the two, Emrakul is generally safer than Griselbrand, since they could put Sulfuric Vortex into play to make your Grisel useless and win the damage-race. Post-board (and late-game where they might alpha-strike you through Emrakul) you might want Griselbrand instead to help you find your bounce spells, in case they have Ensnaring Bridge or similar permanent hate.

- Good cards to board in are any bounce spell, Flusterstorm, Ashen Rider and Pyroclasm (+ more fringe sb-cards like Hydroblast and bad ones like Leyline of Sanctity).

However, the matchup is autopilot most of the time and HEAVILY in our favor.

[pinkfrosting]

Just to add to the above point, you can pretty confidently cast the earliest show and tell possible in most games. The only interaction burn will have will be red blast, ashen rider, or ensnaring bridge, and usually only 2-3 of any of these post board. Mainboard they have no answer except casting 3 burn spells on griselbrand, t2-3 emrakul is always a win unless they burn you out t3, which only happens in the perfect burn hands. If you can counter guide they can't kill you until t4-5.

[Daize]

Guide still being played with Swiftspear out?

[pinkfrosting]

This was heavily discussed in the burn thread, but the consensus is generally that guide will just deal more damage over the course of the game, and that playing with PoP (which has only gotten better since the recent meta changes) negates his downside against most decks.

Turn 1 swiftspear = 1 damage
Turn 2 if you want to play eidelon, which you do in most matchups, swiftspear deals 1. If you bolt spike or bolt bolt she deals 3. Rift bolt won't trigger her until next turn, so if you only have one bolt/spike, she deals 2.
Turn 3 is the best turn for swiftspear in burn, she might deal 4 for you (5 with 3 bolts + fireblast). However, any game where you follow up SS with eidelon then cast three spells, that's still only 6 damage total, the same as goblin guide (2)(2)(2). In some games she will have dealt 1-2 more.
Turn 4 onwards you are probably out of gas, and she will deal 2 for the rest of the game, 1 on turns where you draw a land.

This belongs in the burn thread. But yeah, goblin guide is still around.

[Polishguy00]

JPA, Congrats on your solid 20th place finish.

Did Dig Through Time do any work for you? I keep changing between one and two main lately, usually for a Spell Pierce.

[JPA]

JPA, Congrats on your solid 20th place finish.

Did Dig Through Time do any work for you? I keep changing between one and two main lately, usually for a Spell Pierce.

Thanks! Dig Through Time got me a game loss in Round 7 against Ben Wienburg, where I was up 1-0 (we were both 6-0) and had the game pretty much locked up, I mixed the seven cards from Dig with the cards in my hand while thinking which two to choose... After that, the tournament went pretty much downhill for me (from 6-0 to 11-4 in the end). Still, I'm very happy with the deck in the current metagame and the list felt good. Had a great time overall.

I will write down a report from what I remember later today or tomorrow.

[JPA]

You can find my report here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29142-Sneak-amp-Show-at-SCG-Indianapolis-(20th))

[Unassigned]

You can find my report here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29142-Sneak-amp-Show-at-SCG-Indianapolis-(20th))

Gus and I were behind you at some point in Round 7 but I wasn't certain that was you piloting S&S. Since you never attend Opens, I didn't think much of it and didn't glance at your name on your match slip. Congrats on the deep run. Keep in touch the next time you're in the States.

[JPA]

Gus and I were behind you at some point in Round 7 but I wasn't certain that was you piloting S&S. Since you never attend Opens, I didn't think much of it and didn't glance at your name on your match slip. Congrats on the deep run. Keep in touch the next time you're in the States.

Thanks and yes, I will!

[TheRandomGuy]

Any thoughts on recent lists that have a couple of omniscience in the sideboard?

[Ice1590]

Hi all! tomorrow i'm going into a big tournament (above 200ppl) and this is my list:

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Intuition
1 Dig Through Time
4 Lotus Petal
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misdirection
1 Misty Rainforest
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Through the Breach
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Blood Moon


my question:
1) in sb to jace or not jace?
2) in main intuintion is a valid choice or is better to switch in to fire//ice?

thanks to all! ;)

(sry for my bad english but is not my main language) ^^

[JPA]

1) in sb to jace or not jace?
2) in main intuintion is a valid choice or is better to switch in to fire//ice?


I like Jace as a sideboard card at the moment. Really good against the slower decks coming back into the format (Shardless BUG, Miracles) as well as obviously strong in the mirror.

Intuition is still a really good, underestimated card in this deck. Now that UR Delver is gone, I don't feel like Fire//Ice is a good flex-slot choice anymore, unless you expect A LOT of Death and Taxes.

[Daize]

Just one DTT though? Those are amazing..

[dcosiem]

I love playing jace in the deck, but I believe in consistency is important. Also, Intuitions are like $22~ right now. Better get them now before they go up to $30. I agree with the Fire//Ice idea here. In general, you don't need it. I've never used Dig Through Time in this deck, and I'll probably never.



I like Jace as a sideboard card at the moment. Really good against the slower decks coming back into the format (Shardless BUG, Miracles) as well as obviously strong in the mirror.

Intuition is still a really good, underestimated card in this deck. Now that UR Delver is gone, I don't feel like Fire//Ice is a good flex-slot choice anymore, unless you expect A LOT of Death and Taxes.

[Ice1590]

Hey all! Finished 16th in the tournament! Total player 185! Finished 6-2 losing from uwr delver and team america (but winning from mud and reanimator 😁) dig have save me a lot of time but the intuition not, maybe swithcin on 2 dig but i think is a lot for our grave... Soo testing in progresss with 2 dig ^^

[pinkfrosting]

I love playing jace in the deck, but I believe in consistency is important. Also, Intuitions are like $22~ right now. Better get them now before they go up to $30. I agree with the Fire//Ice idea here. In general, you don't need it. I've never used Dig Through Time in this deck, and I'll probably never.

I would try it out and see what you think depending on your local meta. I think it's a very thin line meta call between intuition and dig through time, where dig is better against Hymn-BUG and intuition is better against heavy countermagic with less discard.

[Daize]

Wow, such a lack of activity for a pretty top tier deck. What's up?

[JPA]

Wow, such a lack of activity for a pretty top tier deck. What's up?

No SCG Opens, no Legacy GPs, BoMs - not much competitive material for discussion.

On another note, I will fly out to the next Legacy Open (Worcester in May). Since there will be no BoM this year, I need a replacement and it's only a 7-hour plane ride to Boston. :wink:

[Unassigned]

No SCG Opens, no Legacy GPs, BoMs - not much competitive material for discussion.

On another note, I will fly out to the next Legacy Open (Worcester in May). Since there will be no BoM this year, I need a replacement and it's only a 7-hour plane ride to Boston. :wink:

I'm trying to make Worcester as well. I'll be at the Columbus Invi, and plan on a couple of events in the 2nd half of the year. I'll definitely be going to New Jersey in November as well.

[HeartNana]

Hey guys I'm new on this thread and on The Source but I want to share my sneak shOw list I'm running atm with you:

MAIN(60):
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Dig Through Time
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Sclading Tarn

SIDEBOARD(15):
3 Pyroclasm
2 Defense Grid
1 Boseju, Who Shelters All
2 Echoing Truth
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
2 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach

Finished the last 5 tournaments:
1x8 place
1x6 place
1x2 place
1x16 place (unlucky)
1x1 place

[owerbart]

Hey guys I'm new on this thread and on The Source but I want to share my sneak shOw list I'm running atm with you:

MAIN(60):
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Dig Through Time
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Sclading Tarn

SIDEBOARD(15):
3 Pyroclasm
2 Defense Grid
1 Boseju, Who Shelters All
2 Echoing Truth
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
2 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach

Finished the last 5 tournaments:
1x8 place
1x6 place
1x2 place
1x16 place (unlucky)
1x1 place

why not Sneak Attack?

[HeartNana]

That's my fault I forgot the 4x sneak attack in the list :( shame on me :p

[i_b_TRUE]

Hey JPA!

I have a tournament next weekend... wondering what 75 you would sleeve up to a SCG tournament. Would be greatly appreciated! Here is where I'm at...

4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul

4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Dig Through Time

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

SB:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Swan Song
2 Defense Grid
1 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Through the Breach

[JPA]

Hey JPA!

I have a tournament next weekend... wondering what 75 you would sleeve up to a SCG tournament. Would be greatly appreciated! Here is where I'm at...


I'm still very happy with my SCGIndy list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79341), and it's working well for me on MTGO. Considering your current list is 73/75 cards identical with mine, I think you are well set-up.

[HeartNana]

Hey guys ;)
I have a question on you all.
How strong do you think is swan song in a deck like sneak show???

greetz elmar

[Bobmans]

Hey guys ;)
I have a question on you all.
How strong do you think is swan song in a deck like sneak show???

greetz elmar
Why give them a blocker for griselbrand or an extra permanent for Emrakul? Also what is wrong with Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce?

[JPA]

Flusterstorm is significantly worse than Swan Song in the mirror, Spell Pierce gets maindecked already. The 2/2 is irrelevant in most cases.

I like Swan Song, even though I would understand switching to Flusterstorm if you expect more Storm than Show and Tell. In a combo-light meta I would even change the Song-slots for a third Blood Moon and another bounce spell or a Pithing Needle.

[HeartNana]

Thx guys for the fast answers ;)
Your thoughts are the same as mine.

Atm my sideboard looks like:
2 Defense Grid
3 Pyroclasm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Blood Moon
1 Flusterstorm
1 Boseju, who shelters all
2 Through the breach

i am going to the eternal weekend in mailand next weekend and i think maybe combo is more in favour than miracle atm so
that was the main reason why I asked about running swan song.
If i would run 2 swan song i wanted to cut 1 fluster & 1 boseju in sb.
i have to say I also run 1 flusterstorm in main deck.

Would do you think guys ???

After that I have another question how good do you think is misdiretion atm ???
My thoughts on that are that misdirection isn't good as it was for 1 year .

[JPA]

how good do you think is misdiretion atm ???
My thoughts on that are that misdirection isn't good as it was for 1 year .

A situation that came up in a DE recently:

Opponent: Entomb
Me: Dig through Time
Opponent: Force of Will your DTT
Me: Misdirect your Force of Will to your Entomb

:tongue:

(even though I board out both DTT and Misdirection against Reanimator most of the time, MD won me that game 1)

Considering the resurgence of Shardless BUG and maybe even Jund, Misdirection still seems like a strong 1-of to me, even though it does get boarded out a lot.

[HeartNana]

Ookay that was a very nice situation JPA :tongue:
But I think that happen not so often hehe ;)

I think running misdirection or running flusterstorm is a meta choice. In a bug heavy meta i would Play misdirection and on Combo meta flustertstorm.

[Drizzy]

While the scenario JPA presented might seem a bit far fetched, there's a point in it. At least now that Dig Through Time exists. If DTT was Brainstorm instead, casting FoW on it in the presented situation is most likely too aggressive. Baiting with DTT is more likely to work since the effect provides more value if it resolves.

[JPA]

It's obviously a corner-case scenario, I just wanted to show that there are other applications for Misdirection than redirecting discard spells and merely countering counters.

Still, it's generally our 5th Force of Will.

[cris_rj]

JPA

What is your side in/out for the following decks :

Det

Rug

Reanimator

Miracles

Stoneblade

Iam having troubles because when i side with sneak n show I normally loose consistence of the deck !


Thx, Cris

[GoblinZ]

JPA

What is your side in/out for the following decks :

Det

Rug

Reanimator

Miracles

Stoneblade

Iam having troubles because when i side with sneak n show I normally loose consistence of the deck !



Thx, Cris

I think the primer may already have answered your question.

Also this mostly depends on what your sb is like.

Generally, donnot over-sideboard in most cases

take out some petals vs some slow blue deck

take out your worst cantrips(if you had) and slow cards like dtt against fast combo deck

consider taking out a land vs decks with no wasteland and soft counters.

[MRTY]

So I've been tempted to put together sneak and show for a while now, but I've got a few reservations and questions about the deck (apologies if these have been answered in the thread and I failed to notice).

First, why play this deck over omni-tell? Am I being unfare by putting them in a similar category? Second, whenever I proxy up the deck, I seem to always find myself in the situation where I have multiple fatties in hand with no show and tell or sneak attack. I assume that's just variance at work but I was cuious if there are any plays or ways (besides the obvious brainstorm and shuffle) that you do to keep this from happening. Lastly, any of you have advice on mulligans? Are there any "trap" hands with the deck that look good at first but are actually mulligans?

[JPA]

What is your side in/out for the following decks :

Det (I assume you mean D&T?)

Rug

Reanimator

Miracles

Stoneblade


Based on my current list:

Flex-slots:
2 Dig Through Time
3 Spell Pierce
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Misdirection

Sideboard:
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Defense Grid
3 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Through the Breach
2 Blood Moon

This is just a rough guide, I might board differently than that depending on oddball sideboard-cards that I see in game 2 or depending on the draw/play.

vs D&T:
+1 Echoing Truth, +3 Pyroclasm, +2 Through the Breach, +2 Blood Moon
-1 Misdirection, -3 Spell Pierce, -1 Gitaxian Probe, -2 Force of Will, -1 Griselbrand

vs RUG:
+2 Blood Moon, +2 Defense Grid, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm
-1 Gitaxian Probe, -2 Dig through Time, -4 Force of Will

On the draw I might keep the Digs and don't board Blood Moon. It might be right to board out 2 Probes and keep in 2 Forces, but I feel I have enough protection with Defense Grid, Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, Misdirection and 3 Pierce. Plus, I like Probe a lot in this matchup to know which of his counters (Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm, FoW, REB) he has, if any.

vs Reanimator:
+1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +2 Through the Breach, +1 Jace, +1 Echoing Truth
-1 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Girselbrand, -1 Mountain, -1 Misdirection, -2 Dig through Time, -2 Show and Tell

If you play against the slower version without Lotus Petal, it might be correct to keep in DTT and board out 2 Petals instead.

vs Miracles:
+2 Through the Breach, +1 Jace, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Pyroblast
-1 Mountain, -2 Lotus Petal, -1 Misdirection, -1 Gitaxian Probe

vs Stoneblade
UWR ("Golddigger"): +everything except 2 Blood Moon, 2 Grafdigger's Cage
-2 Lotus Petal, -1 Mountain, -2 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Emrakul, -4 Force of Will,
-1 Misdirection

Esper: +1 Jace, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Through the Breach, +3 Pyroclasm, +1 Echoing Truth
- 1 Mountain, -2 Lotus Petal, -2 Force of Will, -3 Gitaxian Probe




1) First, why play this deck over omni-tell? Am I being unfare by putting them in a similar category?
2) Second, whenever I proxy up the deck, I seem to always find myself in the situation where I have multiple fatties in hand with no show and tell or sneak attack. I assume that's just variance at work but I was cuious if there are any plays or ways (besides the obvious brainstorm and shuffle) that you do to keep this from happening.
3) Lastly, any of you have advice on mulligans? Are there any "trap" hands with the deck that look good at first but are actually mulligans?

1) This question has been answered over and over in this and the old thread. In short: 2-card combo having to win via attack-step > 3-card combo winning on the spot. Also better sideboard cards (Pyroclasm, Blood Moon, REB, etc.)

2) Yup, the deck does have some clunky draws.

3) I've been mulliganing very aggressively lately. Don't keep game 1 7-card-hands like FoW, Pierce, Creature, lands, without cantrips. Chances are very high that 6 cards are better. Cantrips are very good in this deck, a hand with Brainstorm and lands + random stuff like combo-pieces / counters is almost always a keep.

[Islandswamp]

I'm still very happy with my SCGIndy list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79341), and it's working well for me on MTGO. Considering your current list is 73/75 cards identical with mine, I think you are well set-up.


I have seen your decks on mtgo, and I see you have played reanimator before, too. Which deck do you think is better right now? I am playing reanimator on mtgo, and I have Shardless and Bug Delver too. I was thinking of getting rid of some of the shardless cards and starting to build sneak and show.

Reanimator has been pretty good to me, but I wonder if Sneak and Show is more consistent.

[JPA]

I have seen your decks on mtgo, and I see you have played reanimator before, too. Which deck do you think is better right now? I am playing reanimator on mtgo, and I have Shardless and Bug Delver too. I was thinking of getting rid of some of the shardless cards and starting to build sneak and show.

Reanimator has been pretty good to me, but I wonder if Sneak and Show is more consistent.

Now that Team America and Shardless BUG are back, I see no reason to play Reanimator over Sneak&Show anymore. If you want to spike a local meta full of combo-decks, Reanimator is obviously the perfect choice, but I don't like its susceptibility to cheap hate-cards like Deathrite Shaman or Grafdigger's Cage (or the other infinite 0-1 mana GY-hate-cards).

[Islandswamp]

Now that Team America and Shardless BUG are back, I see no reason to play Reanimator over Sneak&Show anymore. If you want to spike a local meta full of combo-decks, Reanimator is obviously the perfect choice, but I don't like its susceptibility to cheap hate-cards like Deathrite Shaman or Grafdigger's Cage (or the other infinite 0-1 mana GY-hate-cards).

That's the trouble I've been having. I win a ton of game one's, then lose to some random hate card that I don't draw my answer to. I only play mtgo, and there is a ton of deathrite shamans online.

I have some of the cards I need, but I'm stuck with what I have for a few more weeks probably.

[Islandswamp]

Now that Team America and Shardless BUG are back, I see no reason to play Reanimator over Sneak&Show anymore. If you want to spike a local meta full of combo-decks, Reanimator is obviously the perfect choice, but I don't like its susceptibility to cheap hate-cards like Deathrite Shaman or Grafdigger's Cage (or the other infinite 0-1 mana GY-hate-cards).

Well, I did it. I made your exact list, downloaded it from mtggoldfish. I will let you know how it goes!

* It's late, I only had time for one match. 2-0'd it quickly. I think I had above average draws, turn 2 or 3 show into Griselbrand each time, with back up. It's super fun to do. Show and Tell feels so much better in this deck.

This is the one I downloaded and made.

4 Griselbrand
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Sneak Attack
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Ponder
2 Island
4 Lotus Petal
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
1 Mountain
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Blood Moon
2 Defense Grid
1 Echoing Truth
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Swan Song
2 Through the Breach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Pyroclasm

[Islandswamp]

So, Hymn to Tourach is pretty hard on this deck. I played jund twice tonight, and it didn't go well. I only won one game. I used my brainstorm to try to shield my sneak attack and griselbrand, but the hymn hit both emrakul I had in hand, and made me shuffle.

I'm writing my next article about sneak and show, so I want to learn as much as I can. This is going to probably be the only deck I play this week.

Also, I credited JPA as the designer of the list when I added my deck list to the article. I like to give proper credit.

[Islandswamp]

I write an article every week on PureMTGO.com, and this week, I wrote about Sneak and Show, if anyone is interested. http://puremtgo.com/articles/legacy-lessons-get-sneaky

Special thanks to the author of this primer, the information was extremely helpful.:smile:

[GoblinZ]

So, Hymn to Tourach is pretty hard on this deck. I played jund twice tonight, and it didn't go well. I only won one game. I used my brainstorm to try to shield my sneak attack and griselbrand, but the hymn hit both emrakul I had in hand, and made me shuffle.

I'm writing my next article about sneak and show, so I want to learn as much as I can. This is going to probably be the only deck I play this week.

Also, I credited JPA as the designer of the list when I added my deck list to the article. I like to give proper credit.

You should always keep in mind that if they discard your Emmy with either hymn or spot discard you will "lose" the key card you hide with brainstorm, so you should be more tricky in most cases like that.

Jund is a favorable mu in general. I think with spell pierce and misdirection, hymn is not so hard to deal with.

I have not got the time to read what you write but happy to see your article.

[JPA]

I write an article every week on PureMTGO.com, and this week, I wrote about Sneak and Show, if anyone is interested. http://puremtgo.com/articles/legacy-lessons-get-sneaky

Special thanks to the author of this primer, the information was extremely helpful.:smile:

Very well written, comprehensive article. I'm glad the primer helped you, even though it is a little outdated.

[Islandswamp]

Very well written, comprehensive article. I'm glad the primer helped you, even though it is a little outdated.


Thanks man! That means a lot, especially coming from someone who is good enough with the deck to have written a primer! Hit me up on MTGO if you ever want to play a match. Unfortunately, I miss Daily Events most of the time due to having a conflicting family schedule, but I'm hoping to catch one soon.

[i_b_TRUE]

Heys guys!

Wondering if I could get some suggestions. I would like to build Sneak and Show online but its about 1k to build which is a little ridiculous to be honest. Anyone have suggestions of how to get there, build up my acct, sell cards etc? What did you guys do? I figured some good feedback would help.

I have Sneak and Show in paper, but I really would like to play the deck a lot more (since my work schedule conflicts with weekends sometimes which all tournaments fall on:frown:

Thanks!

[MRTY]

Hey JPA, I was checking lists on mtgtop8 and I noticed you placed 2nd in a daily with a slightly different list than what you've been running previously. I was curious what you thought of your changes and if you've liked them. I just put together your SCG indy list in paper and am trying to learn as much as I can.

[JPA]

Wondering if I could get some suggestions. I would like to build Sneak and Show online but its about 1k to build which is a little ridiculous to be honest. Anyone have suggestions of how to get there, build up my acct, sell cards etc? What did you guys do? I figured some good feedback would help.


I started off with a cheap burn-heavy UR Delver list in May 2014 (which obviously contained some parts of Sneak & Show already), played a ton of draft, and in ~September I had made enough profit so that Sneak & Show cost me close to 0.


Hey JPA, I was checking lists on mtgtop8 and I noticed you placed 2nd in a daily with a slightly different list than what you've been running previously. I was curious what you thought of your changes and if you've liked them. I just put together your SCG indy list in paper and am trying to learn as much as I can.

I was just testing the 2nd place list from Eternal Extravaganza (http://eemagic.com/top8legacy.html#2nd). It was an easy 4-0, but the list has some obvious flaws (Boseiju without Throug the Breach is nonsensical, for example) and I will stick with my own list for now.

[Islandswamp]

Heys guys!

Wondering if I could get some suggestions. I would like to build Sneak and Show online but its about 1k to build which is a little ridiculous to be honest. Anyone have suggestions of how to get there, build up my acct, sell cards etc? What did you guys do? I figured some good feedback would help.

I have Sneak and Show in paper, but I really would like to play the deck a lot more (since my work schedule conflicts with weekends sometimes which all tournaments fall on:frown:

Thanks!

You either have to play a lot and win packs to sell, or spend money. Also, you can sell unneeded paper here: http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/papertomtgo.html and get credits for mtgo traders. You can also check out this link http://puremtgo.com/node/1451 to earn some credit to get MTGO cards, it's how I got a lot of my stuff.

There was a time where I could draft and at least win some packs there or playing 2-man or 8-man ques every day, and I built up my account that way, but my schedule does't really allow for that anymore.

[HeartNana]

Hey guys ;)

Have you ever tried Izzet Charm in Sneak Show ???

greetings:smile:

[blindspotxxx]

Hello fellow Sneak and Show brothers!

Have we been totally pushed out of the metagame lately? Our position is just so bad with so many Delver Decks dominating in the Metagame. Combo is at a total down low...
What have you guys been brewing up to counter this hostility?

[JPA]

Have you ever tried Izzet Charm in Sneak Show ???


I think Izzet Charm is similar to Fire//Ice, although a little bit less versatile. Could be okay to play Charm in the 1-Misdirection-slot, if you don't expect to face that many BUG-style decks. The loot-mode of Izzet Charm also has some side bonus against Reanimator, where you could discard a Griselbrand in response to an opponent's Exhume.

To make it more clear:

Misdirection if you expect: BUG-variants, Jund, discard-heavy Esper, counter-wars

Fire // Ice if you expect: Death and Taxes, Elves, Young Pyromancer.dec

Izzet Charm if you expect: Miracles, Blade (UWR, Esper), Reanimator, any matchup where you want Spell Pierce, Death and Taxes too I guess (to break the pre-board Revoker+Karakas lock)



Have we been totally pushed out of the metagame lately? Our position is just so bad with so many Delver Decks dominating in the Metagame. Combo is at a total down low...
What have you guys been brewing up to counter this hostility?

No, we haven't. I like our position, it's basically the same as before Treasure Cruise. One new matchup I have found highly annoying, though, is Grixis Control, which is pretty popular on MTGO. Especially the post-board games can be very frustrating, since you can't really board Defense Grid against a Cabal Therapy deck, but often get drowned in counters (FoW, Pierce, Counterspell, Flusterstorm, REB). Pyroclasm can buy you some time, considering their weakness is very low threat-density, but I haven't found an effective way to improve the matchup yet and my post-board record against them is pretty terrible.
Besides that, I feel Sneak & Show is as strong a deck as ever and I definitely plan on playing it at SCG Worcester in May.

[blindspotxxx]

I think Izzet Charm is similar to Fire//Ice, although a little bit less versatile. Could be okay to play Charm in the 1-Misdirection-slot, if you don't expect to face that many BUG-style decks. The loot-mode of Izzet Charm also has some side bonus against Reanimator, where you could discard a Griselbrand in response to an opponent's Exhume.

To make it more clear:

Misdirection if you expect: BUG-variants, Jund, discard-heavy Esper, counter-wars

Fire // Ice if you expect: Death and Taxes, Elves, Young Pyromancer.dec

Izzet Charm if you expect: Miracles, Blade (UWR, Esper), Reanimator, any matchup where you want Spell Pierce, Death and Taxes too I guess (to break the pre-board Revoker+Karakas lock)



No, we haven't. I like our position, it's basically the same as before Treasure Cruise. One new matchup I have found highly annoying, though, is Grixis Control, which is pretty popular on MTGO. Especially the post-board games can be very frustrating, since you can't really board Defense Grid against a Cabal Therapy deck, but often get drowned in counters (FoW, Pierce, Counterspell, Flusterstorm, REB). Pyroclasm can buy you some time, considering their weakness is very low threat-density, but I haven't found an effective way to improve the matchup yet and my post-board record against them is pretty terrible.
Besides that, I feel Sneak & Show is as strong a deck as ever and I definitely plan on playing it at SCG Worcester in May.

Thanks for the quick reply JPA :) I will be playing at GP Kyoto this weekend but still not sure about our position. I know the way to beat Delver is to use Defense Grids but our win ratio against them post board is still very small. I would understand the Grixis matchup because they have Cabal Therapy and it is very hard to battle that card. I would try to scout the metagame during the LCQ Days if our favorite deck can stand a chance.

[JPA]

I will be playing at GP Kyoto this weekend but still not sure about our position. I know the way to beat Delver is to use Defense Grids but our win ratio against them post board is still very small.

Good luck at the GP! Even without Defense Grid, the post-board Delver matchup is pretty even in my opinion. UWR can be really annoying with their combination of permanent-based hate and counters, but RUG and BUG are close matches I usually enjoy playing.

[blindspotxxx]

@JPA

What do you think about Misdirection back in the main? So far the meta here is mostly BUG Delver and BG Decks like JUND, Shardless, Elves and Deathblade.

Most prevalent colors are black and blue. Tempting to put Leyline back..

My List so far is:

2 JTMS
1 Dig
3 Probe
3 Spell Pierce

And then the stock list..


SB is

3 Blood Moon
3 Pyroclasm
2 Grafidiggers
2 Flusterstorm
2 Omniscience
1 DTT
1 Boseiju
1 Wipe Away

What do you think?

[JPA]

@blindspot: My opinion on Leyline is still the same as ever, I don't like it at all, even in the "right" metagame.

I would definitely play a 1-of Misdirection in the main deck. Other than that, your main seems good to me.

Concerning your sideboard: Boseiju without Through the Breach is nonsense, in my opinion. I don't like Omniscience, unless you expect a ton of Mirror/Reanimator/ContainmentPriest.dec.
I would recommend swapping the 2 Omniscience for 2 Through the Breach.

[mariobross]

hello JPA since you are very willing to give advice, especially against us players who are learning recently,
to play this deck, I wanted to ask what are your side in / out in these metch up (with the list you posted lately):

- BUG control (shardless)

- BUG Delver

- Patriot (UWR Delver)

I ask this because even if the preceding pages I read something about this information I do not know if they are updated on the current metagame.
I also believe that for a player who started playing a new deck to know how to do the side in / out is one of the most important things.

thanks in advance for your help !!!

[JPA]

- BUG control (shardless)

- BUG Delver

- Patriot (UWR Delver)

My current list for reference:

1 Dig Through Time
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Gitaxian Probe
The rest is stock (19 lands with 5 sol-lands, 4 Tarn, 3 blue fetches, 3 Volc, 3 Island, 1 Mountain)

Sideboard:
2 Defense Grid
3 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Blood Moon
2 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach

As always, these are just guidelines and I will adjust my own boarding depending on which sideboard cards I see, whether I'm on the draw or the play, etc.

Shardless BUG:

+1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Blood Moon, +1 or 2 Echoing Truth, +2 Through the Breach

there are different options for boarding out, most of the time it's some combination of Gitaxian Probe, Force of Will, Lotus Petal and sometimes 1 Emrakul

BUG Delver:

That's a real tough one, especially since there are two different versions now (Stifle/Confi and Hymn/Lili). Against the Stifle/Confidant version you definitely want Pyroclasm and maybe Defense Grid, in addition to the standard boarding plan of Blood Moon, Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, and 1 or 2 Echoing Truth. You can board out some amount of Forces and Gitaxian Probes, maybe even a creature or two.

UWR Delver:

+1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Blood Moon (I don't like them on the draw in this matchup, though), +3 Pyroclasm, +2 Defense Grid, +2 Echoing Truth

-2 to 4 Force of Will, -2 to 4 Gitaxian Probe, other cards that could be boarded out are Misdirection, Dig Through Time (not that good against a REB-deck), 1-2 creatures and Spell Pierce (because they don't have Planeswalkers and you have more effective ways to counter their counters in Flusterstorm, Pyroblast and Defense Grid, as well as a ton of must-counter spells).

I hope this helps.

[janluis1]

Just wondering. Does this deck have a good matchup against omnitell!?

[Quasim0ff]

Just wondering. Does this deck have a good matchup against omnitell!?
Fairly decent, as you are just quicker

[Charon]

Fairly decent, as you are just quicker

Are you?

I've seen Omni lists running 5 soul lands and petals, they win the turn they play Omni almost without fail, where we sometimes hit challenges.

I think this match isn't as favorable as you think, if anything I think Omni may have advantage here.

[GoblinZ]

Are you?

I've seen Omni lists running 5 soul lands and petals, they win the turn they play Omni almost without fail, where we sometimes hit challenges.

I think this match isn't as favorable as you think, if anything I think Omni may have advantage here.

I have not played this deck recently so I may be wrong.

The old-version of omnitel is favorable for us, but I think DTT changed thing quite a bit. It is much more dangerous to show a griselbrand now than before, because draw 7 is not big issue for them anymore, even they can respond to fetch a stifle or trickbind to counter the ability, which would be brutal...

If u sit back hoping to resolve a sneakattack without tapping out, it will give them more time to find gas through DTT and very probably u lose the counterwar...


So I think this may not be a good match-up any longer.

I think the only pro for playing sneakshow over omnitel is its explosiveness, they very often need to fow a turn one delver on the draw, while we can neglect the insect in most cases.

[pinkfrosting]

I think the only pro for playing sneakshow over omnitel is its explosiveness, they very often need to fow a turn one delver on the draw, while we can neglect the insect in most cases.

I think that sneak and show is also more consistent at hitting a combo. It has 8 enablers and 8 targets, while Omni only has 4/4-6. While Omnitell is almost guaranteed to go off and win the turn it resolves Show and Tell, they can sometimes get stuck looking for show and tell/Omni.

[s&s]

Are you?

I've seen Omni lists running 5 soul lands and petals, they win the turn they play Omni almost without fail, where we sometimes hit challenges.

I think this match isn't as favorable as you think, if anything I think Omni may have advantage here.

I've found the matchup to be quite in favor of sneak attack.

If they go show & tell to cast omniscience, you can put griselbrand into play, respond to their next cast by drawing 14, and win from there. Since this makes resolving show and tell very risky for them, and sneak attack is a lot easier to cast then omniscience, you are in a great spot from there. Boarding in red blasts and a singleton defense grid I go into this matchup with confidence. Finally access to pyroclasm and blood moon beats the mono-blue approach in my experience.

[GoblinZ]

I think that sneak and show is also more consistent at hitting a combo. It has 8 enablers and 8 targets, while Omni only has 4/4-6. While Omnitell is almost guaranteed to go off and win the turn it resolves Show and Tell, they can sometimes get stuck looking for show and tell/Omni.

But drawing too many fatties or mana like petals could happen, in terms of consistency omnitel si obviously better.

[GoblinZ]

I've found the matchup to be quite in favor of sneak attack.

If they go show & tell to cast omniscience, you can put griselbrand into play, respond to their next cast by drawing 14, and win from there. Since this makes resolving show and tell very risky for them, and sneak attack is a lot easier to cast then omniscience, you are in a great spot from there. Boarding in red blasts and a singleton defense grid I go into this matchup with confidence. Finally access to pyroclasm and blood moon beats the mono-blue approach in my experience.

This mu used to be and still is a grinding mu to some degree, scrupting a perfect hand first and then finding a chance to move. As I said above they can cast cunning wish responding to your drawing seven, fetching a trickbind or stifle to counter u.

[s&s]

This mu used to be and still is a grinding mu to some degree, scrupting a perfect hand first and then finding a chance to move. As I said above they can cast cunning wish responding to your drawing seven, fetching a trickbind or stifle to counter u.

This is why you draw 7, and see if they respond or not. If they try to fetch, you draw 7 again, so that is going to resolve and from there you have a 10 card hand, the cunning wish and your draw 7 on the stack, which is not unfavorable.

[GoblinZ]

This is why you draw 7, and see if they respond or not. If they try to fetch, you draw 7 again, so that is going to resolve and from there you have a 10 card hand, the cunning wish and your draw 7 on the stack, which is not unfavorable.

What if they have multiple copies of dtt, wish and counters? that would happen quite often because it is just their game plan.

Drawing seven is not as devastating as you imagine actually, u may draw a lot of dead cards, which may not put u in a better position compaired to their free DTT.

[pinkfrosting]

But drawing too many fatties or mana like petals could happen, in terms of consistency omnitel si obviously better.

I forgot where the hypergeometric distribution calculator I used last was, I will edit this if I find it, but last time I checked the chance of seeing 2 4-ofs in your opener is something like 15%. Sneak and show only runs 4 more mana sources than omnitell, but it runs 16 total combo pieces rather than 8. Yes, you can sometimes get a clunky draw with multiple fatties, but sneak and show is still statistically more consistent at getting a 2 card combo that puts something on the board. That something might not be as powerful as omniscience + cantrips, but it will happen faster and more often.

[GoblinZ]

I forgot where the hypergeometric distribution calculator I used last was, I will edit this if I find it, but last time I checked the chance of seeing 2 4-ofs in your opener is something like 15%. Sneak and show only runs 4 more mana sources than omnitell, but it runs 16 total combo pieces rather than 8. Yes, you can sometimes get a clunky draw with multiple fatties, but sneak and show is still statistically more consistent at getting a 2 card combo that puts something on the board. That something might not be as powerful as omniscience + cantrips, but it will happen faster and more often.

More cantrips make omnitel more consistent. No one denies the speed of sneakshow, and that is why I think there is still a reason to play sneakshow over omnitel. It seems that we just have different idea of consistency.

However I begin to worry about the omnitel mu.

[janluis1]

I have been advised to play this deck if I wanted to beat Omni. After reading these worlds I will pass I think

[GoblinZ]

I have been advised to play this deck if I wanted to beat Omni. After reading these worlds I will pass I think

If you are dedicated to beat omni, just play reanimator.

I think with some sideboard, we can still handle this mu.

[Ellomdian]

More cantrips make omnitel more consistent. No one denies the speed of sneakshow, and that is why I think there is still a reason to play sneakshow over omnitel. It seems that we just have different idea of consistency.


Not... really?

I gave someone quite an earful in the Kyoto discussion thread because they talked about how 'easy' it was to beat Omni - just counter their SnT's! It's quite a bit more complex than that, obviously, but in a vacuum, Omni almost certainly has to resolve a SnT to put an Omni into play, and have something to do after that, and they likely have the ability to win very quickly. SnS needs an Enabler and A Fatty, and typically an attack step. Omni's game plan has more distinct moving pieces, SnS has more durability.

Sure, cantrips serve to decrease variance, but cantripping into cantrips is only good if you just need to find one thing. You're not gaining card advantage, so you're still restricted to the 1 card per turn rule. SnS requires fewer cards in your hand to function, and it has more redundant cards. Not only is SnS faster (and this is debatable...) but it's much more resilient to disruption because it's a 2-card combo instead of 3.

That's honestly the thing I think people overlook when talking about Omni - it's a 3 card combo. The 3rd card often doesn't matter, specifically, but it has to be there.

[iGrok]

Not... really?

I gave someone quite an earful in the Kyoto discussion thread because they talked about how 'easy' it was to beat Omni - just counter their SnT's! It's quite a bit more complex than that, obviously, but in a vacuum, Omni almost certainly has to resolve a SnT to put an Omni into play, and have something to do after that, and they likely have the ability to win very quickly. SnS needs an Enabler and A Fatty, and typically an attack step. Omni's game plan has more distinct moving pieces, SnS has more durability.

Sure, cantrips serve to decrease variance, but cantripping into cantrips is only good if you just need to find one thing. You're not gaining card advantage, so you're still restricted to the 1 card per turn rule. SnS requires fewer cards in your hand to function, and it has more redundant cards. Not only is SnS faster (and this is debatable...) but it's much more resilient to disruption because it's a 2-card combo instead of 3.

That's honestly the thing I think people overlook when talking about Omni - it's a 3 card combo. The 3rd card often doesn't matter, specifically, but it has to be there.

Oh hey, that was me!

As someone playing counterspells (or Storm), SnS is a lot harder to beat because of its speed. I'll almost always be able to stop the first Show for Omni, but the Turn 2 SnS can really screw me. As control I often want to spend the first couple turns cantripping for counters, and as Storm sometimes I just don't have the turn 3 kill through your countermagic. I would imagine that Omni is also quite weak to KGrip, which will spike in popularity if Omni ever gets really out of hand, but as neither an Omni nor SnS player I wouldn't know for sure.

[Ellomdian]

Oh hey, that was me!


LOL, sorry iGrok, no offense. There is a lot more going on in the Omni matchup since they have variable levels of protection of their own.

But yeah, if you stop Show, that deck is just a pile of cantrips and uncastable Enchantments.

[iGrok]

LOL, sorry iGrok, no offense. There is a lot more going on in the Omni matchup since they have variable levels of protection of their own.

But yeah, if you stop Show, that deck is just a pile of cantrips and uncastable Enchantments.

Haha, none taken.

SnS is just a lot more terrifying because of its redundancy. SnS is more than twice as likely to have combo than Omni, even if you pretend that Omni is an A+B deck, and even if you "only" have Gisele, drawing 14 cards is pretty sweet.

[Macky984]

Haha, none taken.

SnS is just a lot more terrifying because of its redundancy. SnS is more than twice as likely to have combo than Omni, even if you pretend that Omni is an A+B deck, and even if you "only" have Gisele, drawing 14 cards is pretty sweet.

I've played both decks. I think that Omni actually has more redundancy because of it's ability to Wish and filter. Sns is more like to have "a" combo than Omni... but when Omni goes off it's a lot harder to stop. Pithing Needle or Revoker does nothing to Omni... which might not sound like a lot but it is.

[iGrok]

I've played both decks. I think that Omni actually has more redundancy because of it's ability to Wish and filter. Sns is more like to have "a" combo than Omni... but when Omni goes off it's a lot harder to stop. Pithing Needle or Revoker does nothing to Omni... which might not sound like a lot but it is.

Personally, more likely to have "a" combo is how I define redundancy. I do completely agree that Omni is better once it gets going.

[Macky984]

Personally, more likely to have "a" combo is how I define redundancy. I do completely agree that Omni is better once it gets going.

I 100% see your point. It's just that sometimes an opponent will slam down a Needle or Revoker and pick Sneak Attack and it immediately shuts off half your combo. That got frustrating after a while. Lol

[GoblinZ]

That's honestly the thing I think people overlook when talking about Omni - it's a 3 card combo. The 3rd card often doesn't matter, specifically, but it has to be there.

I actually doubt they are 3 card combo now, which they used to be(show+omni+ETI). To say so, I mean DTT not only just improves them in terms of raw power, but also functionally change their whole deck for they now totally forgo the crappy cards like dream hall and ETI and integrate everything into just "one" show and tell.

[Unassigned]

I actually doubt they are 3 card combo now, which they used to be(show+omni+ETI). To say so, I mean DTT not only just improves them in terms of raw power, but also functionally change their whole deck for they now totally forgo the crappy cards like dream hall and ETI and integrate everything into just "one" show and tell.

Agreed. MANY of the Omni builds are moving away from Enter the Infinite. They are relying more on low-mana cantrips, Cunning Wish, DTT and multiple Emrakuls to facilitate their win. Less dead cards in hand (Dream Halls/Enter the Infinite) means a more streamlined build. It's been showing up en mass in the IQ's lately and has been putting up better results lately.

[Ellomdian]

I actually doubt they are 3 card combo now, which they used to be(show+omni+ETI). To say so, I mean DTT not only just improves them in terms of raw power, but also functionally change their whole deck for they now totally forgo the crappy cards like dream hall and ETI and integrate everything into just "one" show and tell.


Agreed. MANY of the Omni builds are moving away from Enter the Infinite.

My point doesn't have anything to do with Enter specifically. It has to do with the fact that you need SOMETHING.

If your hand consists of a Show and Tell, and an Omniscience, and that's it, odds are that you're really not going to be doing anything impressive. Your combo is SnT + Omni + "Some Card", and that base is much easier to attack with disruption than SnT + Griseldaddy. If I Thoughtseize your hand, and I see Omni and SnT and that's it, and I bin your Show, your next draw step might as well be irrelevant. You effectively cannot go off (Barring Dig or Brainstorm shenanigans.) Cheating an Omni into play is great and powerful and sweet, but unless you actually cast something else, you are going to say Go, and your opponent is probably going to try to do something about it.

Omni requires more cards, period. It is more durable when it starts to go off, because it can play to many different lines, and the power of a Wish-board where you are likely casting spells for Free means that you can orchestrate much more complex lines of play. But Sneak and Show only needs 2 cards - something to cheat, and something to cheat into play. And it can run redundancy in those cards, so you need 2-of things you have 8-ofs. Omni needs 2-of things it runs 4-ofs.

[sherko7]

What happened to this deck? :cry:

[Lans89]

What happened to this deck? :cry:

Containment Priest >.<

+

Omnitell got better with DTT

However, I do believe that Sneaky Show is good vs Omnitell and Miracles, both the decks to beat atm!

[Ancestral]

Containment Priest >.<

+

Omnitell got better with DTT

However, I do believe that Sneaky Show is good vs Omnitell and Miracles, both the decks to beat atm!

Well omni tell it defenitly better than sneak and show againt miracles.
not sure abouthe the omni vs sneak tho

[GoblinZ]

Containment Priest >.<

+

Omnitell got better with DTT

However, I do believe that Sneaky Show is good vs Omnitell and Miracles, both the decks to beat atm!

I think anyone who is curious about the mu against Omnitel can watch the video by Julian Knab on youtube. Once SNT is resolved, every cantrip becomes a real threat...

[JPA]

Omnitell's only upside against Miracles is that its combo isn't directly disrupted by Karakas, Jace or Terminus. Other than that, it just straight up scoops to Countertop + CC3, at least the Shouta-version without Boseiju. Sneak & Show has a much higher threat density and an easier time getting around Countertop, Flusterstorm and REB.

Although everyone is hyping up Omnitell and seems to have lost all faith in this deck, I will probably be sneak-showing into SCG Worcester this weekend. Hopefully everyone swaps out their Containment Priests for Ethersworn Canonists. : )

[i_b_TRUE]

So is this deck done? :frown:

I hope not, I'm running it in a tournament coming up, hoping to put up great results!:smile:

[JPA]

It's definitely not done, even though SCG Worcester left a sour taste in my mouth. I started off 4-0 (2-0 Miracles, 2-0 BUG Delver, 2-0 Elves, 2-1 MUD). After that, I had one of the most unlucky runs of my Sneak&Show "career", starting off by losing 0-2 to RUG Delver (Andy Boswell), with resolved Sneak Attack in game 1, unable to find cantrips or creatures in ~10 cards, losing game 2 to two Brainstorm locks.

More ridiculous losses followed against Miracles 1-2 (JD Nir; he misplayed hard in game 3 by not leaving up white mana to replay his resolved Containment Priest (he had a Blood Moon on board (to hedge against Boseiju)). I wiped the Priest away, sneaked Griselbrand into play, but couldn't find an Emrakul with Griselbrand. Oh well, card power level in Legacy is so high that mistakes rarely get punished as hard as they should...), URw Delver 1-2 (where he won game 2 by Echoing Truthing my Griselbrand) and BG Hexdepths 1-2. 4-0 into 4-4 drop in the end.

For now, I am testing different decks on MTGO (Grixis Control mainly, seems like a strong choice until DTT gets banned). I might return to Sneak & Show for GP Lille, though.

Good luck at your upcoming tournament, i_b_TRUE!

For what it's worth and if case anyone is interested, my SCGWor list:

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig through Time
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Through the Breach
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wipe Away
2 Blood Moon

[i_b_TRUE]

Thanks for the update JPA! Sorry to hear the bad run :frown:

JD is a friend of mine, I can ask him about that match if he remembers. But is there any changes you would make to the list?

I am hoping for a good run at the tournament so I can stay positive about the deck we love!

[JPA]

But is there any changes you would make to the list?


You can always play around with the number of Digs, Probes, Pierces, add/remove cards like Misdirection/Jace/Intuition, but I wouldn't necessarily change anything. The sideboard is adjustable as well, of course.

[ceddo]

Well, I do not think, that Omnitell has a better matchup against Miracles than Sneak Show.

Sneak Show is way faster than Omnitell and is not so weak against a cb with a cc=3 on the top.

Many People underestimate the power of Griselbrand, even in the matchup Omni vs Sneakshow. Draw 14 can deal with many things ;)

The real reason in my opinion, why Omnitell is still on the run and not Sneak Show, is Death and Taxes. But D&T is on the downswing, because the matchups against Omnitell and good Miracle-players are not the best.

So, when Death and Taxes and Containment Priest as SB Slot are both on the downswing, maybe Sneakshow might be a secret tech for Lille :)

[phoenix4]

Well, just acquired the deck, so I'll bring it to a legacy tourney tomorrow for some testing.... How big of a deal is flusterstorm in the board from the last list posted?

I haven't got access to them, so I was wondering if a Misdirection could do the trick? :)

[JPA]

Well, just acquired the deck, so I'll bring it to a legacy tourney tomorrow for some testing.... How big of a deal is flusterstorm in the board from the last list posted?


They are very good against Omnitell, Grixis Control and the other discard- and combo-based strategies. You could replace them with Swan Songs, even though you shouldn't board those against Grixis Control.
Alternatively you could cut the Flusterstorms to play 4 REB-effects instead of 2, they are extremely good in the current meta (Omnitell, Miracles, Grixis).

[phoenix4]

They are very good against Omnitell, Grixis Control and the other discard- and combo-based strategies. You could replace them with Swan Songs, even though you shouldn't board those against Grixis Control.
Alternatively you could cut the Flusterstorms to play 4 REB-effects instead of 2, they are extremely good in the current meta (Omnitell, Miracles, Grixis).

I'll try that :) Thanks :D

[JPA]

Managed to win a trial at GP Lille today.

2-0 Omnitell
2-0 Jund
2-1 Mirror
2-0 BUG Delver
2-0 Shardless BUG

[JPA]

Went a combined 15-5 over the weekend at Lille.

5-0 Trial
6-3 GP
4-2 drop Bazaar of Duals

I will post my list once I am home. Even though I feel really demotivated for Legacy at the moment, I am looking forward to SCGDC in August.

[MGB]

Went a combined 15-5 over the weekend at Lille.

5-0 Trial
6-3 GP
4-2 drop Bazaar of Duals

I will post my list once I am home. Even though I feel really demotivated for Legacy at the moment, I am looking forward to SCGDC in August.

Is there any reason really to play Sneak n Show anymore when there are strictly better options like Omnitell available?

[JPA]

Is there any reason really to play Sneak n Show anymore when there are strictly better options like Omnitell available?

Sneak&Show qualified me for my first PT, it's my pet deck (even though most people find it dull and stupid, which it definitely can be) and I found Omnitell very mediocre in testing. The only good things about it are the instant win and Dig. Other than that, it tries to do a 3-card-combo with 4 enablers, is often really slow by cantripping into cantrips and concedes to Countertop+CC3. I prefer to have a wider range and higher threat density, even if I might lose a game because I need the attack step to win.
It also helps that most people swapped Containment Priests for Ethersworn Canonists.
When/If Dig gets banned, people will probably come back to Sneak&Show, putting Omnitell back to Tier 2.

On another note, for those still interested in a dead and "strictly worse" Omnitell, you can find my list here (2nd from top): http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/trial-winners-grand-prix-lille-2015-2015-07-04

[MGB]

Sneak&Show qualified me for my first PT, it's my pet deck (even though most people find it dull and stupid, which it definitely can be) and I found Omnitell very mediocre in testing. The only good things about it are the instant win and Dig. Other than that, it tries to do a 3-card-combo with 4 enablers, is often really slow by cantripping into cantrips and concedes to Countertop+CC3. I prefer to have a wider range and higher threat density, even if I might lose a game because I need the attack step to win.
It also helps that most people swapped Containment Priests for Ethersworn Canonists.
When/If Dig gets banned, people will probably come back to Sneak&Show, putting Omnitell back to Tier 2.


It's really just a 2-card combo. Once you find Show and Tell+Omniscience, all of your cantrips draw you into the win 98%+ of the time.



On another note, for those still interested in a dead and "strictly worse" Omnitell, you can find my list here (2nd from top): http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/trial-winners-grand-prix-lille-2015-2015-07-04

I understand you have an emotional attachment to the decklist, but it just seems as if Omnitell puts up better results more consistently recently and that the metagame is just stronger vs. Emrakul/Griselbrand than it is vs. Omniscience.

[Daize]

If everybody jumps onto the Omnitell wagon, it doesn't mean it's a strictly better list... I think JPA shows that with a solid pilot the deck is still amazing.

Honestly that's what's so good about legacy - it seems, more than in other formats, so much more important that the player knows his deck (and the metagame) than playing the so-called best deck.

[Oath Breaker]

It's definitely not done, even though SCG Worcester left a sour taste in my mouth. I started off 4-0 (2-0 Miracles, 2-0 BUG Delver, 2-0 Elves, 2-1 MUD). After that, I had one of the most unlucky runs of my Sneak&Show "career", starting off by losing 0-2 to RUG Delver (Andy Boswell), with resolved Sneak Attack in game 1, unable to find cantrips or creatures in ~10 cards, losing game 2 to two Brainstorm locks.

More ridiculous losses followed against Miracles 1-2 (JD Nir; he misplayed hard in game 3 by not leaving up white mana to replay his resolved Containment Priest (he had a Blood Moon on board (to hedge against Boseiju)). I wiped the Priest away, sneaked Griselbrand into play, but couldn't find an Emrakul with Griselbrand. Oh well, card power level in Legacy is so high that mistakes rarely get punished as hard as they should...), URw Delver 1-2 (where he won game 2 by Echoing Truthing my Griselbrand) and BG Hexdepths 1-2. 4-0 into 4-4 drop in the end.

For now, I am testing different decks on MTGO (Grixis Control mainly, seems like a strong choice until DTT gets banned). I might return to Sneak & Show for GP Lille, though.

Good luck at your upcoming tournament, i_b_TRUE!

For what it's worth and if case anyone is interested, my SCGWor list:

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig through Time
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Through the Breach
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wipe Away
2 Blood Moon



I played a small 4 round, 12 person event Sunday using your list.
The only change I made to the main deck were -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Spell Snare. The Snare felt wrong every time I drew it, and may replace it with Flusterstorm. The sideboard I just through together at the last minute without a lot of thought.
Here's how it went.

4 colour Delver, 2/0
Felt silly easy. The second game I had 2 Pithing needle's just when I needed them. One for Wasteland and one for Deathrite.

Burn, 2/0
First game I had Emrakul turn 2, second game was basicly the same, but took me to my turn 3.

MUD 2/1
Game one on the play I live the dream. Git probe, into Ancient Tomb, into Lotus Petal, into S&T, into Emrakul = profit.
Game two he locked me out so fast I couldn’t recover. Game 3 I wipe the board with Emmy using Through the Breach, and now were both in top deck mode, and my cantrips just took over the game and I managed to recover so much easier.

Nic Fit 1/2
Game one his hand disruption eats me up, game two I win easily with a turn 2 S&T into Sneak. Game 3 was crazy close, but in the end his hand disruption along with Huntmaster pressure is to much and I know its over.

I think the only main deck change I would make is the Spell Snare, into Flusterstorm. As for the side, I may add 4 Leylines to help with Burn and hand disruption.

[Deckerator]

I thought about playing the sideboard tech of Brad Nelson (2x Omniscience, Jace)
Do you think it is worth playing ?

[JPA]

I played a small 4 round, 12 person event Sunday using your list.
The only change I made to the main deck were -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Spell Snare. The Snare felt wrong every time I drew it, and may replace it with Flusterstorm. The sideboard I just through together at the last minute without a lot of thought.
Here's how it went.

4 colour Delver, 2/0
Felt silly easy. The second game I had 2 Pithing needle's just when I needed them. One for Wasteland and one for Deathrite.

Burn, 2/0
First game I had Emrakul turn 2, second game was basicly the same, but took me to my turn 3.

MUD 2/1
Game one on the play I live the dream. Git probe, into Ancient Tomb, into Lotus Petal, into S&T, into Emrakul = profit.
Game two he locked me out so fast I couldn’t recover. Game 3 I wipe the board with Emmy using Through the Breach, and now were both in top deck mode, and my cantrips just took over the game and I managed to recover so much easier.

Nic Fit 1/2
Game one his hand disruption eats me up, game two I win easily with a turn 2 S&T into Sneak. Game 3 was crazy close, but in the end his hand disruption along with Huntmaster pressure is to much and I know its over.

I think the only main deck change I would make is the Spell Snare, into Flusterstorm. As for the side, I may add 4 Leylines to help with Burn and hand disruption.

Congrats on your good result. I don't see the benefits of Spell Snare over Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm, so replacing it with one of the latter ones seems reasonable. I like Spell Pierce a lot more than Flusterstorm as a main deck card, as it hits a lot of the cards that we have trouble with that Flusterstorm doesn't - Counterbalance, Jace, Liliana.


I thought about playing the sideboard tech of Brad Nelson (2x Omniscience, Jace)
Do you think it is worth playing ?

Jace definitely is a solid sideboard choice. I don't like Omniscience in the sideboard, especially now that everyone replaces their Containment Priests with Ethersworn Canonists. If you want to play with Omniscience and 3-card-combos, you should just play Omnitell. :wink:

I have to admit that I've been liking Omnitell more and more, jamming it a lot on MTGO. A Dig-ban would have made the choice to play Sneak&Show at upcoming tournaments much easier, now I am torn between Omni and Sneak.

[Deckerator]

I played some matches at cockatrice testing this deck.
Played a list i have seen at SCG Super IQ - Columbia
Changed some slots


Creatures [8]
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Instants [12]
2 Dig through time
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [11]
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell

Enchantments [6]
2 Omniscience
4 Sneak Attack

Artifacts [4]
4 Lotus Petal

Lands [18]
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Steam Vents

Do you think we can make a split between Omni&Show and Sneak&Show?
Some changes i wanna try:
- 1 Sneak Attack
- 3 Gitaxian Probe
- 1 Emrakul
- 1 Griselbrand

+ 1 Omniscience
+ 3 Preordain

[JPA]

Do you think we can make a split between Omni&Show and Sneak&Show?


I tested a Hybrid on MTGO a bit and wasn't impressed at all. It's way too unfocused and also has some nasty dis-synergies (drawing Omniscience + creature does nothing, drawing Sneak Attack + Omniscience does nothing; I'd rather keep it a 2-card-combo).

I went 5-4 at SCGDC, feeling pretty helpless.

2-0 UG 12post
1-2 4c Delver
2-0 Sylvan Plug
2-1 BGw Hexdepths
0-2 4c Delver
2-0 Omnitell
1-2 Omnitell
2-0 Omnitell
1-2 BUG Delver

Won the Modern 5K Premier IQ on Sunday, though. :cool: Modern seems much more fun than Legacy right now.

[meffeo]

Won the Modern 5K Premier IQ on Sunday, though. :cool: Modern seems much more fun than Legacy right now.
Well done, my friend, but please don't jump on that wagon...

[Mattincognito]

Hi all new to the forum and this archetype on a whole. Feel like this deck has fallen WAYYY too far out of favor since the Treasure Cruise era... DTT is good, but so is killing them on turn 2. Is my assessment correct that the increase in Cabal Therapy as a whole is causing this deck to get pushed out in favor of Omni tell? If so what is the best sideboard plan to deal with the Cabal Therapy decks, particularly Grixis Delver/Pyromancer.

[FTW]

Somewhat on topic, since it involves SneakShow and its performance in a game:

I was just browsing through old Legacy videos to study some matchups and noticed this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0gS6i_mtxU

[CabalTherapy]

Somewhat on topic, since it involves SneakShow and its performance in a game:

I was just browsing through old Legacy videos to study some matchups and noticed this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0gS6i_mtxU

Chris Vanmeter, perhaps accidentally, perhaps pulling an Alex "Two Explores" Berto-cheaty, plays 2 lands in one turn during Round 5 in the 4-0 bracket vs Feline at SCG Providence last year. On an SCG camera. Feline doesn't notice. Cedrick and Patrick don't notice. Apparently no one else noticed during the event, because he went on to top 8 and finish 5th. But it's recorded on camera!!

Basically, he plays a Volcanic for the turn, Brainstorms, tanks for 2 minutes, hesitates about which cards to put back, and then after everyone has stopped paying attention out of boredom he innocently drops a Flooded Strand (approx 6:43). Cheating? Innocent mistake? It's possible he just forgot after tanking for so long. But tanking that long on a Brainstorm is also a great way to try to sneak through an extra land. Hard to say. It's also shocking he wouldn't have quickly realized he had too many lands, since he then has 5 lands to Feline's 3 and no one missed a land drop (High Tide certainly isn't going to miss a land drop when it still has cantrips in hand..). Either way, this sort of thing should not be allowed to happen without repercussions. It may have swung the match, since game 1 ended up being about having enough mana to win a counter war and beating Flusterstorm math.

Sketchy?? Did any regular Sneak Show players notice this earlier?

You've embarrassed yourself. Watch the situation again and you'll notice that he plays Volcanic, passes the turn, Feline draws, passes quickly, CVM draws BS for the turn and then he plays Strand as the only land for this turn.

[FTW]

You've embarrassed yourself. Watch the situation again and you'll notice that he plays Volcanic, passes the turn, Feline draws, passes quickly, CVM draws BS for the turn and then he plays Strand as the only land for this turn.

Oh, Feline's draw is practically off camera and the announcers completely ignored her turn. Oops. Yes, thoroughly embarassed. Shouldn't post at 4 AM after drinking...

[JPA]

Hi all new to the forum and this archetype on a whole. Feel like this deck has fallen WAYYY too far out of favor since the Treasure Cruise era... DTT is good, but so is killing them on turn 2. Is my assessment correct that the increase in Cabal Therapy as a whole is causing this deck to get pushed out in favor of Omni tell? If so what is the best sideboard plan to deal with the Cabal Therapy decks, particularly Grixis Delver/Pyromancer.

Cabal Therapy hits Omnitell harder than Sneak&Show, even though they play more cantrips, they have to find a 3-card-combo and only have 4 enablers. The reason that Omnitell pushes Sneak&Show out lies in Omni's cantrip shell (4 Dig through Time) and smaller space of combo-cards, resulting in less dead draws and more consistency, as well as having an instant-kill most of the time and being immune to cards like Karakas.
Sneak&Show still has more speed and raw power (8 enablers) and is largely unaffected by Omnitell hate-cards like Ethersworn Canonist, Trinisphere or Meddling Mage (which is annoying, but doesn't have to be removed in order to win).

A good sideboard plan against Cabal Therapy based Pyromancer-decks probably involves Flusterstorm and Pyroclasm.

[kuroko16]

JPA93 (3-0)
LEGACY PREMIER #8762338 ON 09/14/2015

DECKLIST STATS SAMPLE HAND
SORT BY:

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
Instant (13)
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
Artifact (5)
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Sneak Attack

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island


Sideboard (15)
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyroclasm
2 Through the Breach
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wipe Away

JPA how do you feel about 1 Sensei? good choice?

[JPA]

JPA how do you feel about 1 Sensei? good choice?

I played this list in five Dailies, going 3-0, 1-2, 3-0, 3-0, 2-1. The list feels very good, the Top was awesome, 1 Dig seems just right. Top is basically a cheaper Dig that can't be red blasted. :cool:

[kuroko16]

I played this list in five Dailies, going 3-0, 1-2, 3-0, 3-0, 2-1. The list feels very good, the Top was awesome, 1 Dig seems just right. Top is basically a cheaper Dig that can't be red blasted. :cool:

you think play sneak in this period is a good idea? i play omnitell but today there are too much hate. sometimes its frustrating when people side-in 12 cards against your deck.

[JPA]

you think play sneak in this period is a good idea? i play omnitell but today there are too much hate. sometimes its frustrating when people side-in 12 cards against your deck.

I'm not sure it's a good idea, I just can't let the deck go. :wink:

It might help that Containment Priests get replaced with Ethersworn Canonists and that there's a general rise of Omnitell-specific hate-cards such as Trinisphere that are largely irrelevant for Sneak&Show.

And please let's not turn that into another Omni vs Sneak discussion; we've had too many of those. It's pretty obvious that Omnitell is the objectively better deck right now, but there are still some advantages Sneak&Show has.

[JPA]

Rejoice, brothers and sisters.

[i_b_TRUE]

rejoice, brothers and sisters.

hell yeah!!!!

[whataboutcats]

I've been bouncing around some other decks since DTT showed up, it feels really nice knowing I get to revisit this old friend :)

I might have to go pickup a top or two now (just recently sold mine off ironically) to try out in the list.

[Koby]

I played this list in five Dailies, going 3-0, 1-2, 3-0, 3-0, 2-1. The list feels very good, the Top was awesome, 1 Dig seems just right. Top is basically a cheaper Dig that can't be red blasted. :cool:

I used to run 1-2 Tops back about 2 years ago and they work great. I think there's even a feature match that showed it back in Jan 2013. It's essentially cantrip #9-10. I haven't played a list with Gitaxian Probe yet, so these might work better and more protection vs the incoming discard / Counterbalance.

As for the maindeck today, I'm running 2 Fire/Ice to deal with hate bears and flood of Karakas. It's probably going to double up as finishing opponents off after a single Emrakul hit on occasion.

As for the Sideboard, I'm thinking about this 15. Thoughts?

2 Pyroclasm
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wipe Away
2 Through the Breach
2 REB
1 Jace TMS
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Defense Grid (little spotty on this)**

* Maybe run 1 Flustersorm and 2nd Jace.

[JACO]

Sensei's Divining Top is still really good in this deck, and helps you overcome mulligans. Card quality is usually more important than card quantity in this deck, as your spells are so powerful.

Blood Moon will be your friend in this deck moving forward in the updated (ie. rewound) Legacy metagame. Don't leave home without it.

[JPA]

I used to run 1-2 Tops back about 2 years ago and they work great. I think there's even a feature match that showed it back in Jan 2013. It's essentially cantrip #9-10. I haven't played a list with Gitaxian Probe yet, so these might work better and more protection vs the incoming discard / Counterbalance.

As for the maindeck today, I'm running 2 Fire/Ice to deal with hate bears and flood of Karakas. It's probably going to double up as finishing opponents off after a single Emrakul hit on occasion.

As for the Sideboard, I'm thinking about this 15. Thoughts?


I'm not sure if I'll have room for Top in my new list, since now that Dig is banned, Intuition and Misdirection will definitely make a comeback.

I really liked Fire // Ice at GPNJ, it was a meta call for UR Delver, buying a ton of time. Hate bears usually come from sideboards, so I wouldn't necessarily run main deck Fire // Ice, and rather play more Pyroclasms. Keep the main deck as streamlined as possible.

Also, as Jaco said, Blood Moon is one of our strongest sideboard bombs and I'd definitely add them to yours. Maybe cut 1 Grafdigger's Cage (I think 2 is the right number, you rarely want to have them in multiples) and 1 Wipe Away for 2 Blood Moon?

Keranos is interesting, in which matchups would you bring him in?

[i_b_TRUE]

I'm not sure if I'll have room for Top in my new list, since now that Dig is banned, Intuition and Misdirection will definitely make a comeback.

I really liked Fire // Ice at GPNJ, it was a meta call for UR Delver, buying a ton of time. Hate bears usually come from sideboards, so I wouldn't necessarily run main deck Fire // Ice, and rather play more Pyroclasms. Keep the main deck as streamlined as possible.

Also, as Jaco said, Blood Moon is one of our strongest sideboard bombs and I'd definitely add them to yours. Maybe cut 1 Grafdigger's Cage (I think 2 is the right number, you rarely want to have them in multiples) and 1 Wipe Away for 2 Blood Moon?

Keranos is interesting, in which matchups would you bring him in?

JPA, hows the updated list looking?

[Koby]

Keranos is interesting, in which matchups would you bring him in?

I'm thinking vs mid-range decks with heavy disruption (discard or heavy counter), and anything that tries to Surgical into an advantage spot by taking out Sneak or Show & Tell. Basically, a supplement to Jace and providing an additional "threat" that's both castable and buys time.

[JPA]

JPA, hows the updated list looking?

I'll have to wait for the B&R update to be implemented on MTGO to do thorough testing and see how the meta develops in general. I'll post an updated list either between SCGSTL and GP Seattle or after the GP.


I'm thinking vs mid-range decks with heavy disruption (discard or heavy counter), and anything that tries to Surgical into an advantage spot by taking out Sneak or Show & Tell. Basically, a supplement to Jace and providing an additional "threat" that's both castable and buys time.

I would rather just add another Through the Breach for more threat density. And I don't like the fact that Keranos gets countered by literally every counterspell except Flusterstorm. Still, I do see the merit of having an alternate, non-combat-dependent, win-condition in grindy matchups, so I might test him as a 1-of.

[Emrakul503]

Excited to see this deck make its way back to the top. I will be testing out various lists in preparation for GP Seattle. I would love to see all suggestions for the flex slots. Right now I am running 1x Top and 1x Blood Moon in the main, but am thinking about -1 Top, +1 JTMS. Maybe an Omniscience. Open to suggestions!

[Nihilis]

I'll have to wait for the B&R update to be implemented on MTGO to do thorough testing and see how the meta develops in general. I'll post an updated list either between SCGSTL and GP Seattle or after the GP.



I would rather just add another Through the Breach for more threat density. And I don't like the fact that Keranos gets countered by literally every counterspell except Flusterstorm. Still, I do see the merit of having an alternate, non-combat-dependent, win-condition in grindy matchups, so I might test him as a 1-of.

Pretty sure Keranos is still a creature on the stack, so Spell Pierce won't hit him.

[JPA]

Pretty sure Keranos is still a creature on the stack, so Spell Pierce won't hit him.

Right, missed that. Every counterspell except Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce then. :tongue:


I would love to see all suggestions for the flex slots.

I'll try to make a compilation of possible flex slot fillers before GP Seattle. You should definitely consider Misdirection and Intuition as possible 1-ofs.

[JPA]

This list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92454) made it to the finals of the SCGINDY Premier IQ. Looks like a solid post-ban starting point, even though I'm not sure about Jace, who always seemed like an over-priced cantrip in many matchups, as well as the lack of bounce-spells in the sideboard.

[Hank Zhong]

Agreed Jace seem out of place as a MD bolt target, but if he played miracles all day, then it was probably insane.

The deck is still one of the best combo decks - I've had pretty good records with the deck in the few tournaments I played in, despite making many mistakes. With Omnitell now out of the picture, people will be packing more containment priests and D&T will make a comeback. What is the best way to fight the hatebears?

Pyroclasm has been pretty good, but outside of that, I like maindecking a fire/ice. Is sulfur elemental something to consider? especially now it has application vs. monastery mentor in some builds of miracles. Another thought would be to just jam a couple inferno titans that you can hardcast.

[JPA]

The deck is still one of the best combo decks - I've had pretty good records with the deck in the few tournaments I played in, despite making many mistakes. With Omnitell now out of the picture, people will be packing more containment priests and D&T will make a comeback. What is the best way to fight the hatebears?

Pyroclasm has been pretty good, but outside of that, I like maindecking a fire/ice. Is sulfur elemental something to consider? especially now it has application vs. monastery mentor in some builds of miracles. Another thought would be to just jam a couple inferno titans that you can hardcast.

If you are really scared of Death and Taxes, you should definitely run maindeck Fire // Ice, since it breaks the Revoker/Karakas lock. Expected 3-4 % of the metagame are not enough to convince me to run them, at least for now. Also, I've never been too afraid of that matchup anyway :tongue:. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v6LDT2hJGE)

Sulfur Elemental is a possibility for sure, especially with Miracles running both Containment Priest and Monastery Mentor. Inferno Titan is just a little too expensive without Seething Song, especially against Death & Taxes, who run quite a bit of mana-denial. If you want to get really cute, you could try something extra spicy (=bad) like Pyromancy.

I still think Pyroclasm is the best and simplest answer against hatebears. If you expect UWx decks to run an increased number of hatebears, replacing Pyroclasm with Volcanic Fallout (or running a split of both) is definitely possible as well.

On an off-topic note, are you the same Hank Zhong that I played against in the semifinals of the Modern Premier IQ at SCGDC?

[Baum]

Has anyone ever tried Sudden Shock instead of (or in addition to) Pyroclasm?
It was pretty awesome in Omnitell to kill a hatebear through a Mother of Runes or counterspells. That said, I've never played Sneak & Show before, so I don't know how often an actual sweeper is needed.

[JPA]

Has anyone ever tried Sudden Shock instead of (or in addition to) Pyroclasm?
It was pretty awesome in Omnitell to kill a hatebear through a Mother of Runes or counterspells. That said, I've never played Sneak & Show before, so I don't know how often an actual sweeper is needed.

Pyroclasm is really strong against Young Pyromancer - decks and Elves, Goblins (swarms in general), while Sudden Shock is only at its best against blue decks with Containment Priest / Meddling Mage and the unlikely scenario of Mother of Runes + Containment Priest. I often find Death and Taxes having multiple soft-lock hatebears on the board, where Pyroclasm is much better, even with Mother of Runes, which can only protect one of them, on the board.

Pyroclasm is just much more versatile and can buy a lot of time. I would never board Sudden Shock against Elves (unless they play Gaddock Teeg) or Pyromancer/Delver decks.

[wolfstorm]

Played at my local tonight and the deck played extremely well going 4-0, beat Tendrils 2-0, Grixis Control 2-1, Spiral Tide 2-0, and Alluren 2-1.

MD
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitor's
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Intuition
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul

SB
3 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Through the Breach
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Swan song
1 Defense Grid

R1 - TES
G1 - he rips my hand a part with probe therapy duress, but I hide a spell pierce with ponder and have it on turn 3 for his Ritual tutor LED -> ad nauseum w/ 1 mana left
G2 - I keep Fetch Island Pierce, Pierce, Fluster, Force, Force and draw Tomb, Grisel, Grisel, s&t, and he only has duress for his turn 1, easy win.

R2 - Grixis Control
G1 - he gets an early pyromancer, I respond with S&T Griselbrand, he drops venser bouncing grisel (I d7), land sneak attack next turn and swing with grisel going up to 8 life, he swings for 7 next turn but can't find a burn to finish me and I finish him with emrakul on the next.
G2 - He stops me from comboing and beats me to death.
G3 - I keep Volcanic, Brainstorm, Lotus petal, tomb, Emrakul, Ponder and lead with t1 ponder shuffle, draw Tomb, he thoughtseizes my brainstorm, I top deck a ponder and see S&T, Sneak, Grisel, take the S&T and Tomb -> Petal -> S&T and he has no answer.

R3 - High Tide
G1 - he does a bunch of cantripping, I drop Griselbrand and say no to his combo, than sneak emrakul win.
G2 - I keep a slow hand with REB, fluster, swan song, end up forcing a defense grid, than other countering his combo and he looses to his double pact of negations during his next upkeep.

R4 - Aluren
G1 - I sneak by after a hard fought match
G2 - I draw every land in my deck
G3 - Needles Sneak and eventually lands a alluren but cant find Recruiter or another way to go through his deck, S&T Emrakul followed by Sneak emrakul wins. (first one blocked by strix)

[JPA]

Played at my local tonight and the deck played extremely well going 4-0, beat Tendrils 2-0, Grixis Control 2-1, Spiral Tide 2-0, and Alluren 2-1.


Congrats on a great result!

[movingtonewao]

regarding your aluren match, he had that many permanents on the board to sacrifice to annihilator AND still block with a strix? wow

[wolfstorm]

regarding your aluren match, he had that many permanents on the board to sacrifice to annihilator AND still block with a strix? wow

he had 5 lands, strix, aluren, and needle on Sneak attack, floated 2 mana in resp to annihilator and casted golgari charm to regenerate strix, blocked and killed emrakul while keeping strix & aluren, but I also had sneak + emrakul in hand with enough mana to do it the next turn and he didn't draw the recruiter to win.

[Jandrosaurus]

Hi all,

I'm an Omnitell player transitioning to S&S after the ban and I've been playing a ton lately, both on Cockatrice and at my LGS's Tuesday Night Legacy. I've been toying with my sideboard since the switchover and am looking for some comments/criticism/help with it. Here's my current list:

Mainboard:

4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
3 Spell Pierce
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:

2 Blood Moon
1 Fire // Ice
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Through the Breach

The meta is pretty diverse at my LGS but we do have a fair number of decks that run Karakas (DnT, Miracles, Maverick) which seems to be the only games I really have a hard time winning. For these matches I find myself wanting: Blood Moon, Pithing Needle, Fire // Ice at the least but... what should I be taking out? Typically I take out some number of Probes and FoW. Should I be taking out, say, Show and Tell for DnT, to really pack the SB cards in? Would I be relying on Sneak too much?

For 'fair' decks, I typically take out 4x FoW and add in whatever appropriate hate I have. eg: against Delver decks I take out FoW and add Fire // Ice and Pyroclasm. Blood Moon comes in for RuG and BuG. What else should I be taking out in favor or more SB slots?

For combo decks I'm not sure what I should be taking out other than maybe Top. FoW is necessary and Probes help me to see what they've got going on and what I need to counter. Suggestions?

TL;DR: other S&S players, what are your sideboard plans? I'm looking for help with most decks, but specifically ones that run Karakas/Containment Priest.

Thanks!

p.s. I looked through this thread a fair bit, but when I come across sideboard strategies, they're quite old or not super relevant to the newer decklists.

[angelbaka]

Hi all,
The meta is pretty diverse at my LGS but we do have a fair number of decks that run Karakas (DnT, Miracles, Maverick) which seems to be the only games I really have a hard time winning. For these matches I find myself wanting: Blood Moon, Pithing Needle, Fire // Ice at the least but... what should I be taking out? Typically I take out some number of Probes and FoW. Should I be taking out, say, Show and Tell for DnT, to really pack the SB cards in? Would I be relying on Sneak too much?

For 'fair' decks, I typically take out 4x FoW and add in whatever appropriate hate I have. eg: against Delver decks I take out FoW and add Grafdigger's Cage and Pyroclasm. Blood Moon comes in for RuG and BuG. What else should I be taking out in favor or more SB slots?

For combo decks I'm not sure what I should be taking out other than maybe Top. FoW is necessary and Probes help me to see what they've got going on and what I need to counter. Suggestions?

TL;DR: other S&S players, what are your sideboard plans? I'm looking for help with most decks, but specifically ones that run Karakas/Containment Priest.

Thanks!

p.s. I looked through this thread a fair bit, but when I come across sideboard strategies, they're quite old or not super relevant to the newer decklists.

Against Karakas, your primary defense is Blood Moon. I personally side Magus of the Moon because beating miracles players to death with a bear makes me hard, and dodging spell pierce is relevant. (not like they don't bring in enchantment hate against us anyway, and taking out removal against S&S is generally a good thing). People have used both Pithing Needle and Fire//Ice to shut down Karakases (karakii?) and you'll see both advocated here (but mostly Fire//Ice because versiatlity!) JtMS is also an answer to both, as it's a wincon that gives zero shits about karakas and can bounce the priest.

Personally, I run Lavamancers in my board. They're wonderful against hate permanents and Delvers and are a fun little fuck-you to D&T and Elves players, and force my opponents to strech their Needles even further. Mancers and Magus mean Pyroclasm isn't as good for me, so my sweeper of choice is Bonfire of the Damned. Obviously, I run Tops in my build. The Tops also allow me to run Counterbalance side for the counter-heavy matchups. (I personally hate defense grid, as I don't like limiting my own counterspells and found it fairly useless against miracles - they weren't doing anything else with their mana anyway.) My sideboard allows me to do a sudo-transformational post-board plan against Karakas decks, where I turn into a blue-red control deck with an 'I win' button that my opponent must respect, similar to how Modern Twin plays it's control game. I've found it to be effective.

The other option against Karakas and Containment Priest is the hybrid build, where you play some number of Omni in your 75 to functionally ignore both. It makes you a three-card combo and reducecs your speed and consistency, but Karakas decks tend to be on the slower side anyway, so I think it's an effective game plan. JPA doesn't like it much and makes good arguments against it, although I'd be interested to see how he feels post-ban. The hybrid plan is also significantly worse post-ban, as is the counterbalance plan (did you know Griselbrand has the same CMC as DTT? I do. Flipping g-daddy to say fuck your dig is oh so satisfying.) I'm still updating my list (significantly harder when your deck gets stolen) but hopefully I'll have a solid 75 together before Sea-Tac.

In the DTT days, my first cut for board was always Ponder, but if you play g-probe I'd cut that first.

[Jandrosaurus]

Thanks, angelbaka!

Super helpful post.

[Griselpuff]

Anybody test Baby Jace in the SB? Seems like it could be really strong.

[Emrakul503]

Anybody test Baby Jace in the SB? Seems like it could be really strong.

In my experience, he just doesn't do enough and you would rather be doing other things at that point. Might be worth testing more, but I proxied it and was not impressed. I switched to the Cunning Wish build recently, and am really enjoying it.

[JPA]

Anybody test Baby Jace in the SB? Seems like it could be really strong.

I haven't tested him, could see him being strong, especially with removal boarded out. Tough to evaluate in theory, though.


I switched to the Cunning Wish build recently

You mean you switched to Omnitell?

[Jandrosaurus]

So after 3x grinders and a GPT this weekend (9th out of 24, missing out on top8 by 1 daze-was-the-last-card-in-his-hand) I've nailed my SB down pretty well.

Granted, it's meta-dependent, but here's what I'm working with:

2x Blood Moon
1x Fire/Ice
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Through the Breach
1x Vendilion Clique

I managed to dodge DnT and MUD for the most part, so I haven't gotten much occasion for Hurkyl's, but there's a fair amount of both roaming around and I image it will shine once I do see them.

Needle, Blood Moon, Grafdigger's, Fire//Ice, and Pyroclasm have been absolutely fantastic. No secrets there. Here's my dillema, though: there's a ton of Shardless and BuG Delver in my area and Hymn can just wreck me if I don't have Fluster or Pierce as protection. Having Leyline of Sanctity is really appealing. In order for me to have any chance of drawing it consistently in game 2 and 3 would require a minimum of 3x, though, right? Thoughts?

Also, I'm running a one-of Top in my main and I'm not sure how I feel about it. It straight up won me a game this weekend, but it's usually one of the first things I side out. My matches at the GPT were: BuG Delverx2, S&S, Shardless, and Goblins (it single-handily won me the game after a SnT -> Sneak -> Emmy swing couldn't finish the job and my opponent started to claw back while I was drawing dead). Should I be leaving it in vs any of these matches? Pyroclasm, Blood Moon, Pithing Needle, and Fire//Ice = a lot of boarding.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[JACO]

Anybody test Baby Jace in the SB? Seems like it could be really strong.
Bob, what matchups do you have in mind siding it in against, where it would be really strong? It seems incredibly slow.

To the people using Fire // Ice, why don't you just play Izzet Charm instead? It still kills small creatures, can Spell Pierce, and can sift through crap much better, at the same mana cost.

[Jandrosaurus]

To the people using Fire // Ice, why don't you just play Izzet Charm instead? It still kills small creatures, can Spell Pierce, and can sift through crap much better, at the same mana cost.

It's not an answer to Karakas. Fire // Ice is.

[JPA]

To the people using Fire // Ice, why don't you just play Izzet Charm instead? It still kills small creatures, can Spell Pierce, and can sift through crap much better, at the same mana cost.

But it's not the same mana cost and can be casted off of Sol-Lands, which is pretty relevant. I appreciated its versatility when I main decked 1 Fire // Ice at GP New Jersey (where it was especially great at buying time against Treasure Cruise UR Delver), but I don't think it's a good sideboard card, since its impact isn't particularly high in any specific matchup other than Death and Taxes.



Here's my dillema, though: there's a ton of Shardless and BuG Delver in my area and Hymn can just wreck me if I don't have Fluster or Pierce as protection. Having Leyline of Sanctity is really appealing. In order for me to have any chance of drawing it consistently in game 2 and 3 would require a minimum of 3x, though, right? Thoughts?

Also, I'm running a one-of Top in my main and I'm not sure how I feel about it. It straight up won me a game this weekend, but it's usually one of the first things I side out. My matches at the GPT were: BuG Delverx2, S&S, Shardless, and Goblins (it single-handily won me the game after a SnT -> Sneak -> Emmy swing couldn't finish the job and my opponent started to claw back while I was drawing dead). Should I be leaving it in vs any of these matches? Pyroclasm, Blood Moon, Pithing Needle, and Fire//Ice = a lot of boarding.


If you really feel you can't play around discard with cantrips and soft-counters efficiently enough, try out Leyline. I have stated my opinion on the card many times, and it hasn't changed. You have enough possible dead draws (multiple creatures) to add 3-4 more of them to your deck.

I've been running 4 Spell Pierce 1 Misdirection in my latest list and am 3-0 against BUG Delver and 5-1 against Shardless BUG on MTGO. Maxing out on Spell Pierces and adding Misdirection might help you in these discard-heavy matchups. And you should definitely leave Top in against BUG Delver, Shardless and in the mirror. Generally, you want to leave it in in slow, grindy or discard-oriented matchups (it's especially good at hiding counters against Storm).

If you find yourself overboarding, your sideboard is probably misconstructed. Reevaluate the matchups you want to prepare your sideboard for and think how many cards you can afford to board out in these matchups (the primer, albeit possibly outdated, can help you there).

[JACO]

But it's not the same mana cost and can be casted off of Sol-Lands, which is pretty relevant. I appreciated its versatility when I main decked 1 Fire // Ice at GP New Jersey (where it was especially great at buying time against Treasure Cruise UR Delver), but I don't think it's a good sideboard card, since its impact isn't particularly high in any specific matchup other than Death and Taxes.I do understand the casting cost issue, as well as it can tap Karakas (which is the main legitimate argument in my eyes), but having another Spell Pierce/Shock/Faithless Looting has been better in my experience. I was playing 2 copies of Izzet Charm in my last OmniTell list before the Dig ban, and it was great against D&T then (granted, slightly different circumstances).


And you should definitely leave Top in against BUG Delver, Shardless and in the mirror. Generally, you want to leave it in in slow, grindy or discard-oriented matchups (it's especially good at hiding counters against Storm).Agreed on Leyline of Sanctity. Its general effect is decent in the 39% of opening hands it will be in as a 4-of, but it's terrible otherwise. You also don't want to get into a position where you're siding in 4 highly situational cards (Leyline) to counteract anywhere between 3-7 of the opponent's cards. As I have stated (and JPA did above as well), Sensei's Divining Top is one of the best ways to overcome discard. I've been playing anywhere from 1-3 in Sneak and Show forever (including in my SCG-winning list, which I got crap for at the time; http://www.eternalcentral.com/scg-milwaukee-legacy-open-report-winning-with-sneak-and-bargain/), and it's always been good at overcoming both discard and mulligans.

Blood Moon has a similar effect as Leyline in that it's a potential bomb against BUG (and against most Delver and Shardless variants), but it shuts down a lot of other decks as well, and is very good against Death and Taxes as well (shuts off half their manabase, including Karakas). I have been playing 2 main lately and it's been solid. My only loss in last 8 matches in past 2 trial runs (4 round tourneys) with my current version of Sneak and Show has been to a Worldgorger Dragon player, where I had active Sneak Attack in play for multiple turns in Game 3 and could not find a creature in time. No, I will not be posting full 75 yet until I've got some more tweaking in (I won't be able to make GP SeaTac), but I am playing Top and Blood Moon main, and they've both pulled their weight in the current metagame.

Other options I've experimented with in this deck over the past 2 years were Snapcaster Mage (was pretty above average), Punishing Fires (mana sucked), CounterTop (mana sucked), Burning Wish Grixis (slow, probably not correct for current meta if 4C Delver is going to remain prominent), and most recently pre-Dig ban a white splash for Mentors in the sideboard (an interesting trump to a lot of things). I'll be revisiting all of these in the coming year, as well as another Grixis version with Thoughtseize.

[Jandrosaurus]

JACO, reading your report and your response was super helpful. Thanks!

[Jandrosaurus]

What do y'all think about Crumble to Dust vs. DnT? Can take out Port or Karakas, depending on what other answers you have, and gets around them being able to Flickerwisp your Blood Moon to use Karakas.

Vs. other decks, you can shut off colors and other utility lands? Maybe not worth bringing in for those matches (besides Lands, obviously), but could be spicy as a one-of.

fwiw, I spent a good hour and a half playing against my buddy's DnT list last night, and just got wrecked. Unless I was on the play and getting T2 gdaddy -> emmy, I couldn't seem to get the combo before I was completely locked out via Port/Karakas/Thalia/C-Priest.

[JACO]

What do y'all think about Crumble to Dust vs. DnT? Can take out Port or Karakas, depending on what other answers you have, and gets around them being able to Flickerwisp your Blood Moon to use Karakas.

Vs. other decks, you can shut off colors and other utility lands? Maybe not worth bringing in for those matches (besides Lands, obviously), but could be spicy as a one-of.

fwiw, I spent a good hour and a half playing against my buddy's DnT list last night, and just got wrecked. Unless I was on the play and getting T2 gdaddy -> emmy, I couldn't seem to get the combo before I was completely locked out via Port/Karakas/Thalia/C-Priest.Trading 1 for 1 with the 4 mana Crumble to Dust to answer Karakas (or other random lands) seems tough, especially in light of the fact that they have Wasteland, Port, Thalia, Vryn Wingmare, etc. If I was going to resolve a bomb against them (aside from Sneak Attack, which is your preferred method of victory) I'd prefer it to just be Blood Moon, which is cheaper, and affects more of their lands at once. You should not be relying on Show and Tell against them anyway, but use it as a backup plan, or Show and Tell into Sneak into RR for 2 Sneak activations. If you're having that much trouble with D&T post-board, add a few Sulfur Elementals to help annihilate their creatures (and also decent against Mentor decks). Wipe Away is also decent against D&T as well, because you can just Wipe their Revoker/Karakas/etc. and kill them if they don't have Vial active and on target to drop a Revoker or whatever back down.

[mistervader]

I tried one Keranos in the board for the Team Legacy tournament last weekend. Helped me with Humility and DNT, and with one Sensei in the list instead of 2 Intuition, it really worked out for me.

I may end up keeping 1 Keranos and swapping out 1 TTB for it in the board, if only for the fact that it's another way around the opponent's shenanigans against Sneak Attack and Show and Tell.

[Emrakul503]

Hey guys! So this is the list I am planning on bringing to GP SEATAC. The sideboard may need a bit more tweaking, but I am working on developing a solid sideboard guide for each major deck. With a wish board, there is not a ton of room to have to worry about that kind of thing, but I would like to hear peoples opinions any way. The only thing I do not feel confident about is some of the SB choices, so please feel free to comment.

2 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
3 Cunning Wish
4 Show and Tell
3 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
3 Omniscience

2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Shock
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
1 Intuition
1 Wipe Away
1 Through the Breach

[Deckerator]

Interessted to see how it performs. Please let us know if there are more hands with sneak attack + omniscience than s&t omniscience.
Good luck

[Jandrosaurus]

So I've managed to get paired against the same guy on Miracles for 3 weeks running at my local Tuesday legacy grinders and 2 out of 3 matches end in 0-2 while the third was 1-2. I know Miracles kinda stomps combo in general, but I feel like my game ones should at least be decent? Maybe I'm over side-boarding? His list plays maindeck Venser, Pyroblasts, V-Clique, 2x Karakas, and Jace (though I think Jace is normal).

I run a fairly standard list:

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Griselbrand
1 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
2 Spell Pierce

Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Fire // Ice
1 Misdirection
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Repeal
2 Through the Breach

My SB plan is typically: -2 Sneak, -1 Mountain, -1 Lotus, -2 Probe, -1 Preordain for: +2 TTB (trying to dodge his SBed Needles), +1 Boseiju, +1 Pyroblast, +1 REB, +1 Fire // Ice (hits containment priest or taps Karakas), +1 Blood Moon.

Does this sound right? His maindeck seems to have more than a couple silver bullets for me and it only gets worse after board when he brings in Needles/Containment Priest/Cannonist. Any help would be very appreciated.

[RhoxWarMonk]

So I've decided to give this deck a try and just putting together the main deck now (only missing a few cards that I plan to get over the next week or two).

This is what I'm planning to build, does anyone have any suggestions on card changes to either the main or the side? My meta is very healthy, a good mix of random decks - you might see anything from Delver variants, to Miracles, Elves, Aggro Loam, Infect, Lands, Burn, Storm and DnT are the decks I see most often.

In addition, anything for a new Sneak and Show player that would be helpful? :)

Without further adue - fairly stock list (I think):

Creatures (8)
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Lands (19)
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

Spells (33)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Show and Tell

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
2 Pyroblast
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Through the Breach
3 Pyroclasm

Any constructive feedback would be very appreciated - TY!

[JPA]

I won a trial at GP SeaTac (they didn't post my list for some reason :eyebrow: ), completely failed the main event (3-3 drop, losing my best matchups), and had a nice sunday going 4-1 with BUG Delver in the Legacy battle, which got me a BFZ box.

The list I went with after weeks of MTGO testing was:

Stock 51 (16 combo pieces, 4 FoW, 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Lotus Petal, stock manabase)
4 Preordain
4 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

SB:
2 Omniscience
2 Through the Breach
1 Boseiju, who shelters All
2 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Shock
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Blood Moon
2 Echoing Truth

The 12 cantrip version impressed me a lot in my online testing, since it provided very high consistency to combo off on turn 2/3. The sideboard was thoroughly tested and tuned for the Tier 1 matchups and I felt very confident going into the event.

My trial matchups were:
Rd. 1 Reanimator 2-0
Rd. 2 4c Delver 2-0
Rd. 3 Dredge 2-1
Rd. 4 Shardless BUG 2-1
Rd. 5 Death and Taxes Prize split

With a smooth run through the trial and 2 byes for the GP, I felt even more confident. Unfortunately, it was a complete disaster. After winning round 3 2-0 against Shawn (lordofthepit) on Miracles, I lost against Burn, BUG Nic Fit and Elves - some of our best matchups. I cantripped into cantrips, got my Emrakul raced by a Progenitus (+6 permanents) and felt completely powerless.

I would still recommend my list and Sneak&Show in general in the current meta, even though I might not touch it until the next large tournament.




Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Fire // Ice
1 Misdirection
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Repeal
2 Through the Breach

My SB plan is typically: -2 Sneak, -1 Mountain, -1 Lotus, -2 Probe, -1 Preordain for: +2 TTB (trying to dodge his SBed Needles), +1 Boseiju, +1 Pyroblast, +1 REB, +1 Fire // Ice (hits containment priest or taps Karakas), +1 Blood Moon.

Does this sound right? His maindeck seems to have more than a couple silver bullets for me and it only gets worse after board when he brings in Needles/Containment Priest/Cannonist. Any help would be very appreciated.

You definitely want Sneak Attack, especially against Karakas and Venser. Blood Moon does very little (only shuts off Karakas, which can be played around with Sneak Attack or overpowered by Griselbrand's card-draw) and has obvious dissynergy with Boseiju.

I'd bring in 2 TTB, 1 Repeal, 2 REB/Pyroblast, 1 Boseiju, 1 Fire//Ice, 2 Needle. Cutting 1 City of Traitors, 3 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Intuition, 2 Lotus Petal and either a 3rd Lotus Petal or the 1 Preordain.




In addition, anything for a new Sneak and Show player that would be helpful? :)

Your list seems fine to me; as you say, fairly stock. You might find some helpful tips and tricks in the primer on page 1. :smile:

[Emrakul503]

I ended up playing a stock list at the GP as well. Went 4-3 drop, losing to Miracles (damn close game, lost in game 3 at 1 life not being able to force something back), Jund (with a resolved blood moon) and RUG Delver (Chinese Pro, good games).

The Omni-hybrid way under performed during the trials the day before so I jumped ship. Watch Joseph Herrera do some with with our Eureka cousin that was very entertaining. He did not day 2 either.

[lolcakes]

I got 33rd with Sneak and Show in Seattle with 12-3 finish and they didn't post my list (OWP was .0001 less than Zach Koch for 32nd) I haven't had time to write a tournament report because of fallout 4 but my losses day 1 were to shardless, I think mostly due to lack of experience playing against it. I beat shardless day 2 I think you're better off just jamming show and tell as fast as possible in that matchup and hope they don't have force, they rely more on hand destruction than counter spells. My day 2 loss was to elves, lots of cantrips and didn't see what i needed. Funny enough my hard matchups i won, against death and taxes and grixis delver. Got lucky against D&T, and I just killed everything my delver opponent played with pyroclasms and dragged the game out super long for the win. My list is below, I would take out the overmaster main for a 3rd spell pierce and take out the defense grids in the board for something else, possibly omniscience. The jace was mediocre but it pitches to force early and isn't a bad play late. I definitely like preordain more than probe, it might be user preference but it felt more right to me.

My favorite game in the whole tournament was Day 1 against a 5 color tezzeret deck (It was like a wierd mix of tezz control and lands). He cast chains in G2 and was chumping my griselbrand for a bunch of turns with thopters. I activated griselbrand 6 times that game to find force + blue card to answer things, and discarded emrakul to chains to refill my library lol.


Main-
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
3x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Griselbrand
4x Lotus Petal
4x Brainstorm
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
1x Overmaster
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Show and Tell
4x Sneak Attack
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Side-
2x Blood Moon
2x Defense Grid
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
3x Pyroclasm
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Through the Breach
1x Wipe Away

[JPA]

I got 33rd with Sneak and Show in Seattle with 12-3 finish

Congrats and welcome! I like your list, but with Shardless BUG and Miracles being the Top 2 decks I feel like Spell Pierces should be maxed out right now. Overmaster always seemed way too narrow to me and only playable in a meta with lots of main deck REBs (Treasure Cruise meta).

[lolcakes]

Thanks for the welcome! I've been a lurker on the source for a while finally decided to chat a bit :).

Ya makes sense on the overmaster, it was definitely boarded out alot! I hadn't played S&S since treasure meta and didn't have a lot of time to tweak the list. I played Grixis Tezzeret in St Louis a few weeks ago and fought the deck all day instead of my opponents. So I decided to go back to what i know the best in Seattle and leave Tezzeret for weekly tournaments.

[RhoxWarMonk]

What are most people running in their flex slot? I've seen a few different one ofs, intuition and flusterstorms seem like popular choices? I've even seen a single mana ape as the '9th creature', I suspect as a way to push out sneak attack early or on the same turn.

Any thoughts on what's more effective?

I'm also playing with 4 spell Pierce right now, which I notice some decks are only running 2 or 3. Is this correct? Spell Pierce just seems so so good against virtually everything at the moment... Makes it hard to cut them.

[JPA]

What are most people running in their flex slot?

Currently there are two viable main paths to fill the 9 flex slots:

Gitaxian-style:

3-4 Gitaxian Probe
3-4 Spell Pierce
0-1 Intuition
0-1 Misdirection
0-1 Preordain
0-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
0-2 Overmaster (I don't like it, it was at its best during the main-deck REB era)
0-1 Fire // Ice (very uncommon, for Death and Taxes heavy metagames)
0-1 Sensei's Divining Top

With this configuration you'll most commonly see 3 Gitaxian Probe, 3-4 Spell Pierce, 1 Intuiton, 1 Misdirection and sometimes 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor instead of the Intuition and Misdirection.

12 cantrip - style:

4 Preordain
3-4 Spell Pierce
0-1 Intuition
0-1 Misdirection
0-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The most common Preordain-configuration is 4 Preordain, 4 Spell Pierce, 1 Jace / Misdirection.

Obviously there are more options for costumization, but these are the standard ones.

I am currently testing a list close to the one I 13-2d GPNJ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76127) with, replacing the anti UR Delver - cards with anti Miracles / Shardless BUG - cards. 10-2 so far in three Dailies on MTGO. The Legacy MOCS is coming up and I'd really like to do well after scrubbing out of GPSeaTac.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Currently there are two viable main paths to fill the 9 flex slots:

Gitaxian-style:

3-4 Gitaxian Probe
3-4 Spell Pierce
0-1 Intuition
0-1 Misdirection
0-1 Preordain
0-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
0-2 Overmaster (I don't like it, it was at its best during the main-deck REB era)
0-1 Fire // Ice (very uncommon, for Death and Taxes heavy metagames)
0-1 Sensei's Divining Top

With this configuration you'll most commonly see 3 Gitaxian Probe, 3-4 Spell Pierce, 1 Intuiton, 1 Misdirection and sometimes 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor instead of the Intuition and Misdirection.

12 cantrip - style:

4 Preordain
3-4 Spell Pierce
0-1 Intuition
0-1 Misdirection
0-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The most common Preordain-configuration is 4 Preordain, 4 Spell Pierce, 1 Jace / Misdirection.

Obviously there are more options for costumization, but these are the standard ones.

I am currently testing a list close to the one I 13-2d GPNJ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76127) with, replacing the anti UR Delver - cards with anti Miracles / Shardless BUG - cards. 10-2 so far in three Dailies on MTGO. The Legacy MOCS is coming up and I'd really like to do well after scrubbing out of GPSeaTac.

Thank you for such a great and detailed answer, I appreciate it. I'm currently on the Git Probe plan, running 3 copies of probe and 4 copies of spell pierce. It's actually very similar to the deck you linked me in your post (congrats on the finish btw), only I'm not running any of the 1 of Fire/Ice or Misdirection. I'm running a single preordain in the 1x DTT slot at the moment, which is decent but I'm not sure if I'm better served with a Intuition instead. Also, isn't Jace just way too slow for this deck? I've seen a couple lists run him and admittedly, my experience is basically null with this deck but it FEELS like he's a very expensive cantrip, especially when my whole goal isn't to control the board but instead to gather my pieces and win outright. Am I wrong in this line of thinking?

Overmaster feels "clunky" to me, for lack of a better word but I'll be honest in that I haven't played with that card since like 2002 :laugh:

[JPA]

Jace is actually pretty strong right now, with Miracles and Shardless BUG being the Top 2 decks. I play him as a 1-of in my current main deck.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Jace is actually pretty strong right now, with Miracles and Shardless BUG being the Top 2 decks. I play him as a 1-of in my current main deck.

hmm, that's very good to know, I'll certainly keep that in mind. Do you have any other suggestions on cards that are good against Shardless or Miracles as a 1 of? Sorry for the bombardment of questions, I'm a bit of a research nut and only just now finally getting this deck completely together. Still haven't had time yet to playtest across so many different decktypes but BUG and Mentor Miracles (along with Elves and DnT) are the most popular decktypes in this area. Lands is starting to get a bit more popular lately as well (likely due to it doing so well in tournaments lately, though this might be a fad and wear off).

[TheRandomGuy]

Hey there. I'm a returning sneak and show player - had multiple top 8s in my local majors last year then didn't play the decks for a year - I gotta say, I missed the deck even more.

So anyway, @JPA i've been reading your mtgo lists recently and I can see you've been trying different builds. Do you think that the preordain style is better than the gitaxian probe style now? (last year i was on gitaxian probe style, but last year's different from this year) :D

[JPA]

hmm, that's very good to know, I'll certainly keep that in mind. Do you have any other suggestions on cards that are good against Shardless or Miracles as a 1 of?

Main deck 1-ofs? Misdirection wrecks Shardless BUG, Jace and Top are pretty good as well. Strong sideboard choices include Blood Moon, Through the Breach and Leyline of Sanctity. Against Miracles Jace does a lot of work, eating a counter in the worst case, taking over the game in the best case (be wary of open mana for flash creatures to kill off Jace). Post-board you can use the combination of Boseiju and Omniscience or Boseiju + Through the Breach to great effect. Even if you don't run Boseiju / Omniscience, other sideboard cards like REB can help your post-board Miracles matchup.


Hey there. I'm a returning sneak and show player - had multiple top 8s in my local majors last year then didn't play the decks for a year - I gotta say, I missed the deck even more.

So anyway, @JPA i've been reading your mtgo lists recently and I can see you've been trying different builds. Do you think that the preordain style is better than the gitaxian probe style now? (last year i was on gitaxian probe style, but last year's different from this year) :D

Welcome back.

They haven't posted my most recent list (I'm not sure, but I think only 1 Daily per day gets posted), but I returned to the Probe-version. I still really like the consistency Preordain provides, even though I sometimes found myself cantripping into cantrips in the early game.

[TheRandomGuy]

Welcome back.

They haven't posted my most recent list (I'm not sure, but I think only 1 Daily per day gets posted), but I returned to the Probe-version. I still really like the consistency Preordain provides, even though I sometimes found myself cantripping into cantrips in the early game.

Yeah that's what I thought too (since i played omnitell to success as well) cantripping into cantrips is a good thing if we still have dtt. I guess going 4 pierce 3 probe and 1 intuition 1 jace is the way to go. I like your sb plan as always, but i'm really iffy on the leylines. How'd that work for you? :)

[JPA]

Yeah that's what I thought too (since i played omnitell to success as well) cantripping into cantrips is a good thing if we still have dtt. I guess going 4 pierce 3 probe and 1 intuition 1 jace is the way to go. I like your sb plan as always, but i'm really iffy on the leylines. How'd that work for you? :)

The latest list that got posted, which is already 3 weeks old, was an experiment with all the cards I had previously discarded as bad choices (no basic mountain, no Blood Moon, Jace, Omniscience, Leyline). Even though I had success with the list I found that Leyline is still not worth it (maybe if Jund makes a comeback), Basic Mountain is necessary, especially in an open meta, and Blood Moon is one of our strongest SB bombs. Omniscience impressed me, Jace was better than expected, too.
That led me to my GPSeaTac list (I posted it last page), with which I went 5-0 in a trial and 1-3 after Byes at the GP.
The failed GP made me rethink my list (even though I think I scrubbed out because of terrible variance and the list is still well-tuned) and I rebuilt my GPNJ list for the current meta. I'm still testing for the MOCS, so I'm not set on anything yet.

[TheRandomGuy]

The latest list that got posted, which is already 3 weeks old, was an experiment with all the cards I had previously discarded as bad choices (no basic mountain, no Blood Moon, Jace, Omniscience, Leyline). Even though I had success with the list I found that Leyline is still not worth it (maybe if Jund makes a comeback), Basic Mountain is necessary, especially in an open meta, and Blood Moon is one of our strongest SB bombs. Omniscience impressed me, Jace was better than expected, too.
That led me to my GPSeaTac list (I posted it last page), with which I went 5-0 in a trial and 1-3 after Byes at the GP.
The failed GP made me rethink my list (even though I think I scrubbed out because of terrible variance and the list is still well-tuned) and I rebuilt my GPNJ list for the current meta. I'm still testing for the MOCS, so I'm not set on anything yet.

I'll play your list at our major LGS event this Sunday.

Here's an updated list derived from your GP NJ list last year, it's the stock gitaxian probe build but I maxed out the spell pierce since it's really good right now.

Lands: 19
4 Scalding Tarn
3 polluted delta
3 volcanic island
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 island
1 mountain

creatures: 8
4 griselbrand
4 emrakul, the aeons torn

spells: 33
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lotus petal
4 sneak attack
4 show and tell
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
3 gitaxian probe
1 misdirection
1 jace, the mind sculptor (intuition?)

sideboard:
2 through the breach
2 blood moon
1 wipe away
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 omniscience (ashen rider(?))
1 boseiju, who shelters all
3 pyroclasm
2 grafdigger's cage

Pretty stock list. My meta has MUD, Reanimator, Miracles, Delver, possibly Sneak and Show (I think I'm the only sneak and show player here in our area lol). I might try to squeeze in an Ashen Rider for MUD and possible mirror matches. I'm not too afraid against containment priest. I think I can play around it with probes or counter it once the opponent responds to my show and tell or sneak attack activation with it.

[redesign1991]

Looking to get into this deck, everything seems pretty straightforward so far, only thing I'd like to know is if Cabal Therapy is worth consideration when playing with Gitaxian Probe

[jrw1985]

Looking to get into this deck, everything seems pretty straightforward so far, only thing I'd like to know is if Cabal Therapy is worth consideration when playing with Gitaxian Probe
Doesn't seem too shabby with Sneak Attack either.

[JPA]

Looking to get into this deck, everything seems pretty straightforward so far, only thing I'd like to know is if Cabal Therapy is worth consideration when playing with Gitaxian Probe

A black splash (for Thoughtseize replacing Probe, don't know if there is space for both Probe and Therapy without diluting the main deck) is only worth it in a combo/Miracles-heavy meta. The downside against decks that include mana-denial is just too big.

We already have protection with 8 counter spells, I see no need for another angle of protection / disruption.

[oracL3]

I'll play your list at our major LGS event this Sunday.

Here's an updated list derived from your GP NJ list last year, it's the stock gitaxian probe build but I maxed out the spell pierce since it's really good right now.

Lands: 19
4 Scalding Tarn
3 polluted delta
3 volcanic island
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 island
1 mountain

creatures: 8
4 griselbrand
4 emrakul, the aeons torn

spells: 33
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lotus petal
4 sneak attack
4 show and tell
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
3 gitaxian probe
1 misdirection
1 jace, the mind sculptor (intuition?)

sideboard:
2 through the breach
2 blood moon
1 wipe away
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 omniscience (ashen rider(?))
1 boseiju, who shelters all
3 pyroclasm
2 grafdigger's cage

Pretty stock list. My meta has MUD, Reanimator, Miracles, Delver, possibly Sneak and Show (I think I'm the only sneak and show player here in our area lol). I might try to squeeze in an Ashen Rider for MUD and possible mirror matches. I'm not too afraid against containment priest. I think I can play around it with probes or counter it once the opponent responds to my show and tell or sneak attack activation with it.
Hi, please can u write some indications about sideboarding strategies? I red something about this in opening post but the list is very old.....anyway thanks :)

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[mistervader]

Ever tried playing with the flu? Fever, migraine, and you doing your damned best not to be the "Infect" player? Well, that's what I did, and it still carried me all the way to top 8, so not bad, I guess. Here's my decklist, which is literally just different from JPA's deck by two cards:

Stock 51 (16 combo pieces, 4 FoW, 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Lotus Petal, stock manabase)
3 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

SB:
2 Omniscience
2 Through the Breach
1 Boseiju, who shelters All
2 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Shock
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Blood Moon
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

Here's a brief report of what went down. The tournament was one for a Tundra, and I wanted to win it bad, not to mention to have my name on the "wall of fame" in the store. I was considering an Omniscience mix, but after testing that, it didn't seem so good to me.

Round 1, vs. Death and Taxes (with Tarmogoyf)

I won the die roll, and opened with a solid hand of sol land, basics, Show and Tell, Spell Pierce, and Griselbrand. He heads straight to Talia on turn 2, I Sol Land into Show and Tell into Griselbrand on my turn 3. I held my breath, but he had nothing to deal with Griselbrand, and so I untapped with the ability to protect him, and rode him to victory.

Sideboarding: -4 Spell Pierce, -2 Show and Tell, -1 Preordain, +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Sudden Shock, +2 Through The Breach, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Wipe Away

Game 2, he opens with Thoughtseize, and nabs my Show and Tell, which he promptly targets with Surgical Extraction. Of course, he was surprised to find I had only 2 copies going around. He got to a few turns of beating me down with Goyf and Ethersorn Canonist, but I killed both via play error, because both of us forgot that Ethersworn would pump Goyf once she dies to Clasm. No matter, because next turn, I TTB into Emrakul, and he has only 5 permanents, 6 if you counted Goyf, and he was far from lethal. I then controlled the game and found another TTB into Griselbrand a few turns later.

Round 2, vs. Reanimator

I win the die roll. We mostly draw-go, as he didn't have much in the way of discard, and I had a lot of Spell Pierces at the ready, but when I hit Show and Tell for Griselbrand, I expected he had his own. We drew cards, but I had a better stockpile when we traded our Griselbrands into each other. With a lot of lands on both our sides, he reanimates a Tidespout Tyrant with no incident from me. I Show and Tell into Sneak Attack, then promptly put Emrakul into play. I had enough mana to replay Sneak Attack one more time and re-activate for Emmy, so he scooped at that point.

Sideboarding: -4 Show and Tell, -1 Preordain, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +2 Through The Breach

Game 2, we keep on drawing and going, but when I figured he was soft to a TTB into Emrakul on turn 4, I went for it, and he scooped even if I had nothing to follow that up with.

Round 3, vs. BUG

Game 1, I tried to combo out a total of 4 times in 6 turns. He countered me three times. The last time, I got a Preordain, and Preordain got me a Show and Tell into Griselbrand. He swung the game for me because if I had no Griselbrand, he would have been lethal with Delver + Goyf already.

Sideoarding: -2 Force of Will, -4 Sneak Attack, -2 Spell Pierce, +2 Pyroclasm, +2 Through The Breach, +2 Omniscience, +1 Boseiju, +1 Echoing Truth

Game 2, Hymn to Tourach wrecked my plans, and Goyf and Delver took him all the way. I couldn't assemble my combo at all.

Sideboarding: -2 Force of Will, +2 Spell Pierce

Game 3, TTB + Boseiju was my friend. Twice.

Round 4, vs. Elves

ID

Round 5, vs. MUD

ID

Top 8: vs. BUG

I was making a lot of misplays throughout the tourney, but nothing so fatal yet. This top 8 proved to be my undoing, unfortunately.

In game 1, I went first with this hand: Show and Tell, Griselbrand, Sol Land, Fetchland, Lotus Petal, Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack. I went for the first turn Shwo and Tell, as he mulled to 6, and whoops, what do you know, he had FOW. I couldn't recover from there.

Sideboarding: -2 Force of Will, -4 Sneak Attack, +2 Through The Breach, +2 Omniscience, +1 Boseiju, +1 Echoing Truth

Game 2 was great, or so I thought. I had him mostly under control because Boseiju was in play and I had TTB and Emrakul at the ready, and Sensei's in play. My mistake was when he tried to Hymn me, I Brainstormed to FOW it, but due to the number of cards left, I hid away my combo as the two cards, just in case he was going to counter my FOW. He didn't. I cast an uncounterable TTB into Emrakul, but the problem was, I had to use Top to do it. This meant Top got shuffled away, and he recovered before I could.

Not bad for a guy who couldn't think properly. I suppose I could've played better if I were feeling better, but a Windswept Heath for my efforts isn't bad at all.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Congrats on your finish. How did you like the preordain build vs the git probe build? Did you find that was too many cantrips as a whole? Was there ever a time you couldn't go off in fear of your opponent sandbagging a FoW or spell pierce?

I'm on the Git Probe plan at the moment (with 1 preordain and 1 misdirection in my flex slots). I also really liked your SB, similar to JPAs as well I think, was there anything you'd change there?

[mistervader]

Congrats on your finish. How did you like the preordain build vs the git probe build? Did you find that was too many cantrips as a whole? Was there ever a time you couldn't go off in fear of your opponent sandbagging a FoW or spell pierce?

I'm on the Git Probe plan at the moment (with 1 preordain and 1 misdirection in my flex slots). I also really liked your SB, similar to JPAs as well I think, was there anything you'd change there?

The Preordains, given that I ran 3, which could have been Gitaxians instead, seemed interchangeable at this point with the Probes. However, because I was running Preordain, I never felt the need to have Intuition in my deck at all. I had the combo when I needed it. I don't think I would have played differently if I had Gitaxian probes in my hand because anytime I ran S and T blind, I didn't have a Preordain prior to that, anyways, and since they were 1-for-1 swaps, this meant the peek at the hand couldn't have made a difference so much as the card quality fixing definitely did.

Of course, there's a lot to be said about not having to spend actual mana on the Probe, though. That is still a very important feature that I find important about Probe, but I'm completely ambivalent between the two at the moment.

As for the sideboard, the one difference was the Wipe Away. I still haven't mastered my sideboarding, obviously, and in fact, would love advice on what I may have done wrong, but one card I missed was the one-of I jammed in during my last tournament with Sneak and Show: Keranos. Keranos has been great for me since I have a singleton Sensei's Divining Top, and helps me keep so many things at bay, because it's a one-card combo, as it were. I might want to try and see how it would work out if I put in one Keranos in place of the second TTB.

Obviously, I knew where my actual play errors lay, but I still wasn't entirely sure if boarding in Omniscience vs. Delver decks was the right course of action. It seemed to be the right call at the time, if only for the fact that I see them boarding in Pithing Needle against me all the time, and it invalidates that card.

[JPA]

I still haven't mastered my sideboarding, obviously, and in fact, would love advice on what I may have done wrong, (...) I still wasn't entirely sure if boarding in Omniscience vs. Delver decks was the right course of action.

I wouldn't bring in Omniscience against Delver decks, since they can't deal with a resolved Show and Tell (unless it's BUG Delver, which might have Liliana of the Veil as a 1- or 2-of). Omniscience is great against Miracles (or any UWx deck that runs Containment Priest), Death and Taxes (gets around Karakas by casting Emrakul), the mirror (lets you keep in 2 Show and Tells and win via Show-Omni-Emrakul) and to less effect Reanimator (where it still gets eaten by Ashen Rider) and Storm (lets you either win or the spot with Emrakul or cast all your counters for free).

I have no idea why you board out Sneak Attack against BUG Delver in fear of a potential 1-of Pithing Needle. Lowering your threat-density is very wrong in that matchup. You definitely want the Blood Moons, since they usually end the game on the spot, even if they have a Deathrite Shaman out. Pyroclasm is only good against the Dark Confidant - version, not so much against the standard build. I'd also recommend leaving Through the Breach in the sideboard, it's way too expensive against a deck running 4 Daze.

Your sideboarding against D&T seems fine, even though you definitely want 2 Omniscience to get around Karakas more easily. You can safely board out 2 FoWs, since they are terrible topdecks if they start off with an early Aether Vial.

Against Reanimator, both Omniscience and Boseiju are pretty good. Boseiju especially, which (obviously) has great synergy with Through the Breach against a deck with 4 FoW 4 Daze (and possible sideboarded Flusterstorms/Spell Pierces).

Just some quick ideas, I hope that helps. Congrats on your finish!

[mistervader]

I wouldn't bring in Omniscience against Delver decks, since they can't deal with a resolved Show and Tell (unless it's BUG Delver, which might have Liliana of the Veil as a 1- or 2-of). Omniscience is great against Miracles (or any UWx deck that runs Containment Priest), Death and Taxes (gets around Karakas by casting Emrakul), the mirror (lets you keep in 2 Show and Tells and win via Show-Omni-Emrakul) and to less effect Reanimator (where it still gets eaten by Ashen Rider) and Storm (lets you either win or the spot with Emrakul or cast all your counters for free).

I have no idea why you board out Sneak Attack against BUG Delver in fear of a potential 1-of Pithing Needle. Lowering your threat-density is very wrong in that matchup. You definitely want the Blood Moons, since they usually end the game on the spot, even if they have a Deathrite Shaman out. Pyroclasm is only good against the Dark Confidant - version, not so much against the standard build. I'd also recommend leaving Through the Breach in the sideboard, it's way too expensive against a deck running 4 Daze.

Your sideboarding against D&T seems fine, even though you definitely want 2 Omniscience to get around Karakas more easily. You can safely board out 2 FoWs, since they are terrible topdecks if they start off with an early Aether Vial.

Against Reanimator, both Omniscience and Boseiju are pretty good. Boseiju especially, which (obviously) has great synergy with Through the Breach against a deck with 4 FoW 4 Daze (and possible sideboarded Flusterstorms/Spell Pierces).

Just some quick ideas, I hope that helps. Congrats on your finish!

Will definitely take your advice for sideboarding! Any thoughts on replacing one TTB with Keranos, since he gets around Thalia's tax effect? I'm sure I could have done better if I wasn't battling a migraine and a fever, but admittedly, my mulligan decisions as it stood weren't particularly strong that day, to begin with. I think I mulled only once the entire tournament and kept a lot of shaky hands, and I knew they were shaky.

In any case, I will keep repping this deck for the foreseeable future. My other decks are storm-based and Oops, and I tire of running those when it's not in Vintage.

[JPA]

Austin Lambkin won the Kansas City 5k Premier IQ with a pretty innovative take on Sneak and Show. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95312) 20 lands, 2/2 Probe/Preordain split, Izzet Staticaster, Inferno Titan?!
He went undefeated 9-0-1 over 7 rounds of Swiss and the Top 8, congrats on a huge performance!

[RhoxWarMonk]

Austin Lambkin won the Kansas City 5k Premier IQ with a pretty innovative take on Sneak and Show. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95312) 20 lands, 2/2 Probe/Preordain split, Izzet Staticaster, Inferno Titan?!
He went undefeated 9-0-1 over 7 rounds of Swiss and the Top 8, congrats on a huge performance!

That's interesting, I wonder what he brought Inferno Titan in against?! I noticed it is played a lot in the mono-red version of Sneak Attack, but I've never seen it (even SB) in this version.

Izzet Staticaster is a nice touch, I may have to playtest that in my board as well.

[Daize]

0_o Yeah me too.. any reports ? :P

[mariobross]

Hello everyone I wanted to share with you some thoughts on the list that won the last SCG.

Also I was already testing for some time a very similar list (-1fetch +1 probe) and I have always enjoyed it because in this deck usually has lists
almost always very similar differing usually for two cards each, these two cards depending on the different meta of the tournament (Jace, sensei, misdirection, intuition, fire/ice, etc ...)

the problem is that almost always in those two SLOT are a tutor or something to dig the deck for find combo or counter.
in this case the 2 preordain is great because they are excellent drawers and make the deck very slender, also are never a bad top deck.

then I wanted to ask you what you think of playing 20 lands... the only thing left unchanged in the years of S & S was its excellent manabase despite being a combo,
and if what you think of adding a Boseiju instead of a fetch as 20th land saw cause the spread of miracles in tournaments.

I also really like the split between 3/1 pierce/flusterstorm, which helps us in a counterwar or against combo
and leaving 3 pierce who they were very good in the early game against BUG and Miracle.

The only big problem for me is don't have TTB in the side, for me bosejiu with TTB is a very strong alrernative plan.



let me know what you think of this deck analysis,


thank you all...

[kharonte666]

Hi guys I'm new in this forum and with this deck too. My actual mainboard list is usual with 16 combo pieces, 10 cantrips 8 counters, 3 probe, 19 lands, 4 petals. My side is actually 2 blood moon, 1-2 grafdigger cage, 2 pyroclasm. What do you think? What is better to add? Omniscience? Through the breach? Boseiju? Swan song? More pyroclasm?

And another question maybe more important: how to side? In the first post is explained but not against all decks. Against maverick? Jund? Lands? Grixis delver/control? Infect? Dredge? What to side in and what to side out?

I'm a newbie and I really need help! Thank you! (And yes my English is actually bad because I'm Italian [emoji14])

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[JPA]

Against maverick? Jund? Lands? Grixis delver/control? Infect? Dredge? What to side in and what to side out?

I'll take this generic list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/344317) that I played in a Daily for sideboarding advice. As always, please take this as general suggestions rather than strict instructions.

Maverick: -3 Spell Pierce, -1 Intuition, -1 Misdirection, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -2 Force of Will +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Sudden Shock, +2 Blood Moon, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Through the Breach

Jund: -1 Intuition, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Force of Will, +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Through the Breach, +1 Flusterstorm

Lands: -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Misdirection, -1 Intuition, +2 Blood Moon, +2 Through the Breach, +1 Wipe Away

Grixis Delver (I assume you mean the currently popular 4c list with 1 Tropical): -1 Intuition, -2 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Misdirection, -2 Force of Will, +2 Pyroclasm, +2 Defense Grid, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Flusterstorm

Infect: -1 Sneak Attack, -1 Intuition, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Misdirection, -4 Force of Will, -1 Gitaxian Probe, +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Sudden Shock, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Blood Moon

Dredge: -1 Sneak Attack, -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Misdirection, -1 Intuition, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Pyroclasm

[kharonte666]

Yes 4c delved. Thank you so much, I'll take this as a suggestion!

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[trolliver]

Anyone had any success with this deck lately? I have played it for soon 6 weeks and cant say im overly happy with the deck... Will play tomorrow and hope i can post some good results...

[RhoxWarMonk]

Anyone had any success with this deck lately? I have played it for soon 6 weeks and cant say im overly happy with the deck... Will play tomorrow and hope i can post some good results...

I don't mean any offense by this but 6 weeks is such a short amount of time to play a brand new deck you don't have experience with. I remember picking up new legacy decks in the past and it would take me a solid 50+ games to get a decent handle on how to play. Especially in legacy, where the decisions over the first few turns can really make or break the game.

I don't have much experience with this deck, so I cannot really comment on your exact question but I'd adhere to patience when building/playing new legacy decks. In my experience, I usually play very poorly when I first start piloting a new deck but it gets much better as I gain more experience and I've been playing magic since the Ice Age days...

[mariobross]

Hi,
I read the advice of JPA and they seemed very useful,
I wanted to ask how to side with the list posted by JPA versus: miracle , BUGdelver and BUGshardless and storm .

and where you play more the TTB .

Thank you very much for your helping and patience

[JPA]

I wanted to ask how to side with the list posted by JPA versus: miracle , BUGdelver and BUGshardless and storm .

and where you play more the TTB .

Miracles: -1 Intuition, -1 Misdirection, -3 Gitaxian Probe, -2 Lotus Petal, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Sudden Shock, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Through the Breach

BUG Delver (you want Pyroclasm against the Dark Confidant version, this guide is for the more common Hymn-Liliana-build): -1 Intuition, -2 Force of Will, -1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, -1 Gitaxian Probe, +2 Blood Moon, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Elemental Blast

Shardless BUG: -1 Intuition, -3 Gitaxian Probe, -2 Lotus Petal, -2 Force of Will, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Blood Moon, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Through the Breach

Storm (ANT): -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Mountain, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Misdirection, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Grafdigger's Cage (if you know that they sideboard Surgical Extraction / Extirpate, board out 1 Intuition and leave in 1 Gitaxian Probe.)

Through the Breach is at its best in grindy matchups where you want higher threat density and diversity (Shardless BUG, Jund, Esper Blade, Miracles) and against decks that can abuse Show and Tell's symmetry (mirror, Reanimator, Belcher, Aluren, etc.).

[mariobross]

thank you for your advice JPA,

analyzing your side-in I would ask why against Grixys not side Blood Moon athank you for your advice JPA,

analyzing your side-in I would ask why against Grixys not side Blood Moon? Why against BUG not side defense grid (although in this case I am more agree)? and the last, why not pyroclasm against shardless?

I would also like to know what you think of a 1x Boseiju in side due to the increase the number of miracle (we could put Flusterstorm in main instead of misdirection and bosejiu in place in side, it is also perfect with TTB)

[JPA]

analyzing your side-in I would ask why against Grixys not side Blood Moon? Why against BUG not side defense grid (although in this case I am more agree)? and the last, why not pyroclasm against shardless?

I would also like to know what you think of a 1x Boseiju in side due to the increase the number of miracle (we could put Flusterstorm in main instead of misdirection and bosejiu in place in side, it is also perfect with TTB)

You could definitely board Blood Moon on the play against 4c Delver, even though I don't like it. Young Pyromancer paired with infinite Pyroblasts and FoWs is often enough to win through a Blood Moon. I prefer it in matchups where it's game over 90+% it resolves.

Defense Grid is reasonable against the discard-light Stifle/Confidant version, but pretty bad against the discard-heavy Liliana version. You don't want to shut off your defensive Spell Pierces, which are crucial against Hymn/Liliana.

You can board Pyroclasm if you are afraid of Meddling Mage coming out of Shardless' sideboard. I found Through the Breach + bounce spells to be enough to fight Meddling Mage.

I run 1-2 Boseiju in many of my sideboards (I don't have a set 75 at the moment, experimenting a lot with various configurations). It's excellent against Miracles and in the mirror.

[Charsten]

Any practical advise on mulliganing game1? I'm a noob in legacy and have mainly played limited/modern/standard. Mulliganing seems to be much more important in legacy and especially with this deck that I just got in mtgo..

[Daize]

Play a lot. Fail. Get to understand the deck. Read through this thread. Play more. Fail. Get to understand the deck better. Read through this thread. Play more.

[tarmogoat]

Play a lot. Fail. Get to understand the deck. Read through this thread. Play more. Fail. Get to understand the deck better. Read through this thread. Play more.

I am just picking this deck up and this is my plan. Though I'll add the following 2 steps to the loop:

- Watch videos
- Read articles

[mariobross]

Against RUG and UWR, therefore tempo deck without discard spells but with a lot of counterspells, what do you think about this side in/out?

RUG: -1 Intuition, -2 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Misdirection, -2 Force of Will, +2 Blod Moon, +2 Defense Grid, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Flusterstorm

UWR: -1 Intuition, -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Misdirection, -2 Force of Will, +2/0 Blod Moon(if no basic lands), +2 Defense Grid, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Flusterstorm +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Sudden Shock
in this case I have more difficulty because on side has disenchant or W/T and not always in G1 you can understand if he plays or not basic lands for sid-in Blood Moon

also against ANT , I thought to side-in 1 sudden shock and/or a Pyroclasm against xantid or confident ( increasingly used ) or even against the empty worrens although usually do not sid-in against S&S


and finally to end this very interesting part of SIDE IN/OUT It remained to talk about D&T and AggroLoam:

D&T -3 Spell Pierce(probably otp it would remove only 1), -1 Misdirection, -1/0 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -2 Force of Will +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Sudden Shock, +2 Blood Moon, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Through the Breach

AggroLoam: -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Misdirection, -1 Intuition, -1 emrakul, -1 Lotus petal +2 Blood Moon, +2 Through the Breach, +1 Wipe Away, +2 pyroclasm, probably add 1 sudden shock



with this I hope to have concluded (or almost) this interrogation :laugh:

thank you all, I hope that the advice of JPA and others players with more experience, can be useful to all players who like me want to play this wonderful deck

[kharonte666]

In each of your side in you posted I don't see omniscience...in which matchup are useful? Only reanimator and mirror?

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[JPA]

In each of your side in you posted I don't see omniscience...

The list I used as reference doesn't run Omniscience. Please don't troll me like that.

[mariobross]

list that JPA has taken as a starting point is this: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/344317#online

his advice on side-in/out are referred to this, but the most important thing is that we can take these advices as an example for understand how do to make a sidein/out in generally, with this side or with other side that reflect more our personal way we play....


sorry for my english :laugh:

[kharonte666]

I'm sorry, I didn't want to troll you, I checked the wrong list. But if I play omniscience do I have to side in only against mirror or reanimator?

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[JPA]

But if I play omniscience do I have to side in only against mirror or reanimator?

I wrote a paragraph about Omniscience two weeks ago. I'll copy it for you.


Omniscience is great against Miracles (or any UWx deck that runs Containment Priest), Death and Taxes (gets around Karakas by casting Emrakul), the mirror (lets you keep in 2 Show and Tells and win via Show-Omni-Emrakul) and to less effect Reanimator (where it still gets eaten by Ashen Rider) and Storm (lets you either win or the spot with Emrakul or cast all your counters for free).

[JPA]

Just won the Legacy MOCS. More info to follow.

[JPA]

Alright, so I won the last Legacy MOCS yesterday, qualifying me for Pro Tour Shadows over Innistrad and the Magic Online Championship.

This is the list I played, pretty similar to my GPSeaTac list:

4 Preordain
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Sneak Attack
4 Ponder
1 Misdirection
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Wipe Away
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Omniscience
2 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroclasm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sudden Shock
1 Red Elemental Blast

191 players, 8 rounds + Top 8

I might watch the replays and write a proper report, but here are my matchups for now:

Round 1 UG 12post 2-0
Round 2 Esper Blade 2-0
Round 3 Miracles 2-1
Round 4 Merfolk 2-0
Round 5 Grixis Delver 2-1
Round 6 BUG Delver 0-2
Round 7 UG Infect (Olle Rade) 2-1
Round 8 Lands (Daryl Ayers) 2-1

Quarterfinals BR Reanimator 2-0
Semifinals Miracles 2-1
Finals Elves (Andrew Cuneo) 2-0

[Daize]

Back to 4 Preordains eh? How did that go?

[RhoxWarMonk]

Congrats on the great finish JPA, well done! I too would like to know how the 4x Preordains worked for you. Ever wish they were Git Probes? Wondering if I should try the Preordain plan instead but I am a fan (in general) of Probes.

Was there anything (either SB or main) that you would have changed going forward? I'd love a tournament report, if you have time.

Cheers and congrats again!

[johnthedestroyer]

Hello everyone! long time listener, first time caller. I am not sure if i am posting this in the correct section. I was wondering if anyone had noticed Joseph Herrera's Euerka-Tell deck list?

Creatures (5)
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands (19)
2 Island
2 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Spells (34)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Omniscience
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Eureka
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ashen Rider
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Does anyone have any opinions or experience with this list?

[trolliver]

Alright, so I won the last Legacy MOCS yesterday, qualifying me for Pro Tour Shadows over Innistrad and the Magic Online Championship.

This is the list I played, pretty similar to my GPSeaTac list:

4 Preordain
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Sneak Attack
4 Ponder
1 Misdirection
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Wipe Away
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Omniscience
2 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroclasm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sudden Shock
1 Red Elemental Blast

191 players, 8 rounds + Top 8

I might watch the replays and write a proper report, but here are my matchups for now:

Round 1 UG 12post 2-0
Round 2 Esper Blade 2-0
Round 3 Miracles 2-1
Round 4 Merfolk 2-0
Round 5 Grixis Delver 2-1
Round 6 BUG Delver 0-2
Round 7 UG Infect (Olle Rade) 2-1
Round 8 Lands (Daryl Ayers) 2-1

Quarterfinals BR Reanimator 2-0
Semifinals Miracles 2-1
Finals Elves (Andrew Cuneo) 2-0


Wow congratz man! Also interested in the preordain build. Feels like its more easy to assemble the combo with backup ? And also more powerful after SB?

[Deckerator]

Does this deck have a good match up against Aggro Loam ?

[JPA]

Wow congratz man! Also interested in the preordain build. Feels like its more easy to assemble the combo with backup ? And also more powerful after SB?


Back to 4 Preordains eh? How did that go?


I too would like to know how the 4x Preordains worked for you. Ever wish they were Git Probes? Wondering if I should try the Preordain plan instead but I am a fan (in general) of Probes.

Was there anything (either SB or main) that you would have changed going forward?

I went for the Preordain - build for several reasons. I expected a lot of Burn (didn't face it a single time -.- ), so shocking myself just to see which burn-spells they have in hand seemed bad. I also wanted to have maximum consistency for a tournament of at least 8 rounds (11 for me).
Another, actually anecdotal point was that I knew which decks a lot of the MOCS participants were on (I do play A LOT of mtgo), so the information gain from Probe would have been somewhat lessened.
The 12 cantrip-build worked very well for me (obviously), but I'm still unsure if it's strictly better than the Probe-version. Everyone should test them both and decide for themselves.

At the moment I wouldn't necessarily change anything about the deck, even though the flex slots are always, well, flexible. Sudden Shock and Wipe Away were excellent and won me two games where Echoing Truth or Pyroclasm (even Volcanic Fallout) would have been useless.

I will write a report over the next days, even though the replays of the first 6 rounds don't show up in my match history; I'll have to do them from memory / facebook chat logs.


Does this deck have a good match up against Aggro Loam ?

The matchup is pretty balanced. Game 1 can be tough if they draw the relevant part of their deck (Knight, Liliana, other possible hate-cards), but as long as you don't cast a blind Show and Tell into Emrakul without counter-backup for Liliana or knowledge that they don't have Karakas/Knight in hand, you should be fine. Post-board their amount of hate-cards increases, but we also get some high-impact sideboard cards like Blood Moon, Through the Breach or Wipe Away. Pyroclasm can also do some work against Dark Confidant / Thalia / Gaddock Teeg.

[JPA]

Report is up. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30204-Legacy-MOCS-2015-1st-place-with-Sneak-and-Show&p=920227)

[Lethalbiscotti]

Hello, fellow Sneak and Show player here.

Just wondering if anyone has tried Divert in the SB considering BUG decks are still rampant.

Posted it from my phone, so I can't really Ctrl + F "Divert" each page.

Also, congrats on the win JPA.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Report is up. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30204-Legacy-MOCS-2015-1st-place-with-Sneak-and-Show&p=920227)

Thanks for the report JPA, really good read. Congrats again on the impressive finish!

[JPA]

Just wondering if anyone has tried Divert in the SB considering BUG decks are still rampant.


Divert seems like a much more narrow Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm. I might consider playing 1-2 in the sideboard in a known meta full of Shardless BUG, BUG Delver and Jund. And even then I'm not sure it's worth it, due to its low flexibility.


Thanks for the report JPA, really good read. Congrats again on the impressive finish!

Glad you liked it, thanks.

[Spanese]

Looking into building this deck, where can I find an updated list?

[trolliver]

Looking into building this deck, where can I find an updated list?

In this thread 2 pages back... cmon...

Anyway went 3-1 yesterday with the probe build and 4 spell pierce. Faced 2 infect and must say that wipe away is a BOMB. Also misdirection is pretty sick in that matchup. Taking time in reading this thread with all the experience and i think it helped me seeing this deck with different eyes. I feel like the deck is great in my current meta which is pretty much t1.

Edit. This deck is so super fun to play!