[Deck] Sneak and Show

[Spanese]

In this thread 2 pages back... cmon...

Anyway went 3-1 yesterday with the probe build and 4 spell pierce. Faced 2 infect and must say that wipe away is a BOMB. Also misdirection is pretty sick in that matchup. Taking time in reading this thread with all the experience and i think it helped me seeing this deck with different eyes. I feel like the deck is great in my current meta which is pretty much t1.

Edit. This deck is so super fun to play!

Are you talking about this? Thanks!


I'll play your list at our major LGS event this Sunday.

Here's an updated list derived from your GP NJ list last year, it's the stock gitaxian probe build but I maxed out the spell pierce since it's really good right now.

Lands: 19
4 Scalding Tarn
3 polluted delta
3 volcanic island
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 island
1 mountain

creatures: 8
4 griselbrand
4 emrakul, the aeons torn

spells: 33
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lotus petal
4 sneak attack
4 show and tell
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
3 gitaxian probe
1 misdirection
1 jace, the mind sculptor (intuition?)

sideboard:
2 through the breach
2 blood moon
1 wipe away
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 omniscience (ashen rider(?))
1 boseiju, who shelters all
3 pyroclasm
2 grafdigger's cage

Pretty stock list. My meta has MUD, Reanimator, Miracles, Delver, possibly Sneak and Show (I think I'm the only sneak and show player here in our area lol). I might try to squeeze in an Ashen Rider for MUD and possible mirror matches. I'm not too afraid against containment priest. I think I can play around it with probes or counter it once the opponent responds to my show and tell or sneak attack activation with it.

and

[JPA]

Looking into building this deck, where can I find an updated list?

Come on, I posted a link to a report (including a list!) 4 posts above your question...

[Oath Breaker]

Come on, I posted a link to a report (including a list!) 4 posts above your question...

By any chance was any of this taped so we could watch it?
Thanks again for the great report!

[JPA]

By any chance was any of this taped so we could watch it?


I have replays of rounds 7 and 8 + the whole Top 8 in my match history on MTGO. I'm just not sure if there's any benefit in uploading them, since I described these rounds in quite great detail already.

[RhoxWarMonk]

I have replays of rounds 7 and 8 + the whole Top 8 in my match history on MTGO. I'm just not sure if there's any benefit in uploading them, since I described these rounds in quite great detail already.

I personally watch a LOT of MTG in my spare time, so if it's not too much trouble for you, I'd love to see the games in action as well - especially the top 8 rounds.

The tournament report was fantastic but always nice to see a visual :) Totally understand though if you don't want to put in the effort of uploading them and what not, I thought your report was an excellent read and I enjoyed it thoroughly.

[trolliver]

I personally watch a LOT of MTG in my spare time, so if it's not too much trouble for you, I'd love to see the games in action as well - especially the top 8 rounds.

The tournament report was fantastic but always nice to see a visual :) Totally understand though if you don't want to put in the effort of uploading them and what not, I thought your report was an excellent read and I enjoyed it thoroughly.



+1. I work at night and would be very happy if i could watch the matches :tongue:

[Daize]

Seeing the amount of fanboys and the amount of time you play MODO, you should start a twitch channel :p

[trolliver]

I have replays of rounds 7 and 8 + the whole Top 8 in my match history on MTGO. I'm just not sure if there's any benefit in uploading them, since I described these rounds in quite great detail already.

There is a guy in the r/g lands forum that makes videos called "building a fortress". Recording his mtg matches and then put them up on youtube. You should do the same but with SaS :D I would gladly support!

[Kamus]

What happend to intuition?? I really love that card, and this is the perfect deck to run a couple of them. Pretty broken effect, instant speed and it costs 2 uncollored mana that you can pay with tomb/city.

But I noticed the mojority of the recent winning decklists are using preordain instead.

Is preordain really much better? I didn't test that yet, I'm not sure what's best.

[ironclad8690]

+1 on the streaming bandwagon :)

Also this deck has been getting pretty cheap on Magic Online, I might just buy this list of our own JPA to get myself started and work towards the better list:


4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Spell Pierce
4 Show and Tell
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroclasm
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Through the Breach
2 Omniscience

[JPA]

What happend to intuition?? I really love that card, and this is the perfect deck to run a couple of them. Pretty broken effect, instant speed and it costs 2 uncollored mana that you can pay with tomb/city.


Intuition is still great and a 1-of in many of my lists. It does get boarded out in most matchups, though, in fear of Surgical Extraction. Preordain is much better post-board as it can help you find silver-bullet 1- and 2-ofs from the sideboard.


+1 on the streaming bandwagon :)

Oh boy... Maybe if/when they introduce Legacy Leagues.
The viewing experience would be pretty bad for a Daily / 8-man if I finish the round in 10 minutes and have to effectively pause the stream for 40 minutes to wait for the next round.



Also this deck has been getting pretty cheap on Magic Online, I might just buy this list of our own JPA to get myself started and work towards the better list:


Yeah, that's one of the cheaper lists (on MTGO at least), because it doesn't run Misdirection. It was an experimental list with card choices that I wouldn't necessarily make moving forward (Leyline of Sanctity, no Basic Mountain, etc.).

[mistervader]

So I just split to win a 24-man tournament with Sneak and Show, and I had a pretty good run, after a lot of initial hitches. It was the exact same 75 as I ran the last time:


3 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Sneak Attack
4 Ponder
1 Misdirection
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Wipe Away
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Omniscience
2 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroclasm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sudden Shock
1 Echoing Truth

Here's a brief report, and JPA, feel free to let me know if I was boarding right or horribly wrong.

Round 1: Vs. Burn

I won the die roll, and fanned open a hand of Show and Tell, a bunch of lands, Brainstorm, Preordain, and Griselbrand. I Preordain into a Lotus Petal.

My opponent dropped a Goblin Guide and I immediately sighed in relief. His attack revealed an island, and I bring down Griselbrand on turn 2. It didn't take long for me to win from there.

Sideboarding: -2 Preordain, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Flusterstorm

Game 2, I Show and Tell into Emrakul around turn 4 with my life in critical thanks to Sulfuric Vortex +burn, but scoop wayyyy too soon when he brings down an Ensnaring Bridge. My topdeck was Echoing Truth had I just waited it out.

Game 3, I turn 2 Emrakul, with Force of Will backup.

Games: 2-1
Matches: 1-0

Match 2: Vs. Reanimator

Game 1, we play the attrition game and he even manages to reanimate Elesh Norn, bringing his life down enough for me to bring in an unopposed Sneak Attack, and Emrakul into the win.

Sideboarding: -3 Preordain, -1 Mountain, -1 4 Show and Tell, +2 Through The Breach, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Boseiju, +1 Wipe Away

Game 2, I kept an iffy hand of Emrakul, Griselbrand, Lotus Petal, Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, and two lands. He hit Thoughtseize on me and targeted Brainstorm, then animated Griselbrand the next turn. Ah, well. That wasn't gonna work out for me.

Game 3, I kept another iffy hand of Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, 2 fetchlands, Ponder, Sol Land, Sneak Attack, and I couldn't assemble my combo in time before he animated Tidespout Tyrant after emptying my Spell Pierce. He then used Exhume for Griselbrand, and that was all she wrote.

Games: 3-3
Matches: 1-1

Match 3: Vs Dredge

Game 1, third-turn Show and Tell into Emrakul won me the game. He didn't really have much against me in game 1.

Sideboarding: -3 Preordain, -1 Mountain, , +1 Pyroclasm (I forgot I had 2!!!), +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Grafdigger's Cage.

Game 2, I opened with Spell Pierce up, but he just discarded a Dredger. I tried to get things going, but I ended up having Griselbrand online after he had multiple Bridges and an Ichorid to bounce around. The tokens eventually overran me because he was doing more damage than I was gaining.

Game 3, I was durdling but he just overran me with Ichorid and tokens after a timely breakthrough.

Games: 4-5
Matches: 1-2

Match 4: Vs Rock Control

Game 1, I opened with a Sensei's Divining Top, and kept my draws smooth. I had Griselbrand, but he had Vampire Nighthawk. We traded, and the resulting cards I got allowed me to Sneak Attack into Emrakul.

Sideboarding: -3 Preordain, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Wipe Away, + 1 Echoing Truth

Game 2, He got Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack, and had way too many permanents for me to deal with him. His discard also got the best of me.

Game 3, He Extirpated my Show and Tell early on. Grumble. Then, he had Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack, I had it in play, he was chipping away at my life with Dark Confidant and DRS pinging away at me. I was using Top to filter my way through, and I had in hand Emrakul and Griselbrand. I used all my counters to keep my hand, including a timely Misdirection I hardcast on his Hymn to Tourach which stripped away his last Maelstrom Pulse which would have hit my Sneak Attack. I was down to 2 life, after Confidant + DRS, and I topdecked...

Sensei's Divning Top. Well, crap, let's play it and see my top 3 cards: FOW, BS, Fetchland. Okay, then. I use top on BS, he responds to the Top by hitting it with Abrupt Decay. I draw the BS, I cast it to draw the FOW, the Fetchland, and... Echoing Truth. I bounce the Needle, then proceed to attack with 22 damage.

Games: 6-6
Matches: 2-2

Match 5: Vs Rug

Game 1, I brought down Griselbrand on turn 3, and he wasn't able to do much after that. He didn't have any counters, thankfully, because he used them on my Spell Pierces on his Brainstorms.

Sideboarding: -3 Preordain, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, -1 Mountain, -1 Misdirection +1 Boseiju, +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Wipe Away

Game 2, He had my back against the wall, down to 4 life, with DRS and triple Delver. I topdecked a Pyroclasm, and he had no response to it. Two turns later, with him only having Underground Sea in play, I play Blood Moon. He scooped a few turns later, as he said he had no outs at all.

Games: 8-7
Matches: 3-2

Top 8: Vs. Reanimator

It's a rematch! And I was stomped game 1, because he animated Griselbrand on the second turn, as he went first, and he had FOW backup. Ah, well.

Sideboarding: -3 Preordain, -1 Mountain, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, -4 Show and Tell, +2 Through The Breach, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Boseiju, +1 Wipe Away, 1 Echoing Truth

Game 2 was a nail-biter. I mulled into a hand with Spell Pierces, FOWs, and cantrips and managed to protect myself just fine until he animated Griselbrand, which I Wiped Away. I put down Sneak Attack with 4 mana, he durdles and does nothing, then Emrakul finishes the job for me.

Game 3 was insane. I kept defending against him as he had a first-turn Reanimate which I FOW'd, and in turn, I couldn't put a Sneak Attack into play because he kept having FOW for it. He managed to get Griselbrand in play via Exhume while he was down to 16 life. He drew 7. He cast Thoughtseize against me, and I responded with Echoing Truth. He draws 7, then FOW's my Echoing Truth. I point out as TS resolves that he loses 2 life, bringing him down to -1. Yay me.

Top 4: Vs. D&T + Rock Hybrid

Game 1, I had turn 4 Emrakul in response to his Thalia. Yep, it was that simple.

Sideboarding: -3 Preordain, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Echoing Truth

Game 2, this was the doozy of a hand that I had: Emrakul, Griselbrand, mana, Sneak Attack, Pyroclasm. His Containment Priest died to Pyroclasm, Sneak Attack came in around turn 4 thanks to a Sol Land, activated it for Griselbrand, drew 14, got a Petal, got Emrakul, and swung for lethal.

Finals: my opponent scoops to me because reasons. We had a 50/50 match though, since he was on Miracle.

[mariobross]

in Europe it was held the last stage of the year of the MKM series in Madrid.
it was a great tournament with 270 players.

https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/MKMSeries/main.php?tag=20&idt=5&idev=30

arrived in the Top 8, a very particular list of S&S, that I attach below, what do you think?




Luis Alberto Núnez Martin - Sneak and Tell

Land
1x MOUNTAIN
3x ISLAND
3x VOLCANIC ISLAND
1x BOSEIJU, WHO SHELTERS ALL
4x SCALDING TARN
1x POLLUTED DELTA
1x MISTY RAINFOREST
1x FLOODED STRAND
1x CITY OF TRAITORS
3x ANCIENT TOMB

Artifact
2x LOTUS PETAL
2x SENSEI'S DIVINING TOP

Creature
3x EMRAKUL, THE AEONS TORN
3x GRISELBRAND

Instant
2x CUNNING WISH
1x INTUITION
4x BRAINSTORM
2x SPELL PIERCE
2x FLUSTERSTORM
4x FORCE OF WILL

Sorcery
4x SHOW AND TELL
4x PONDER
2x PREORDAIN

Enchantment
3x OMNISCIENCE
3x SNEAK ATTACK
Sideboard

1x ENGINEERED EXPLOSIVES
1x WIPE AWAY
1x SUDDEN SHOCK
2x PYROCLASM
1x TRICKBIND
1x RELEASE THE ANTS
1x BOSEIJU, WHO SHELTERS ALL
2x BLOOD MOON
1x INTUITION
2x PYROBLAST
1x FLUSTERSTORM
1x THROUGH THE BREACH


a list is really very strange, a hybrid between omnitell and S & S.
Certainly it has some improved metch compared with classic S & S from deck as miracle and D & T
but is also more random and less stable. do you think this could be the future of the bunch?

[Daize]

Actually a pretty cool list! I wish I could watch him play a match :-). It seems a bit slower than regular though.

[JPA]

So I just split to win a 24-man tournament with Sneak and Show, and I had a pretty good run, after a lot of initial hitches.

Congrats! Your boarding seems fine for the most part, but you should never board out lands against Tempo (Delver) decks.



a very particular list of S&S, that I attach below, what do you think?


It definitely looks interesting. I'm not a fan of hybrid decks in general, since they are usually unfocused / worse versions of the two decks they try to combine.
Most numbers in the list seem super random (2 Lotus Petal, 2 SDT, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Flusterstorm) and I don't like the idea of drawing Sneak Attack with Omniscience in hand (or the other way around).

The potential upside (all the upsides Omnitell has over Sneak & Show - instant-kill, immunity to Containment Priest) don't outweigh the downsides (lack of consistency, unfocused game-plan, awkward draws) in my opinion. It seems more like a meta-call for this particular tournament, I don't see how it can be better than traditional Sneak and Show in an open meta.

[redesign1991]

Hello everyone

I'm working my way into acquiring the deck and looking at the number of cards I still need I'm pretty close to finishing the deck. However since I made some budget decisions (e.g. Flooded Strands over Scalding Tarns I would like some assistance from the Sneak & Show players on how to make this less ideal version of the deck work at it's best until I can acquire the rest of the cards I still need. Here's what I'm currently working with:


4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Griselbrand

1x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Lotus Petal

4x Sneak Attack

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Pierce

4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Show and Tell

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
3x Island
2x Mountain


For the sideboard I currently only have access to 2x Blood Moon and 1x Omniscience.

As for purchases I plan to make in the near future:

1x Griselbrand
1x Volcanic Island
1x City of Traitors (opt for 1x City and 4x Ancient Tombs MD?)
1x Omniscience
3x Pyroclasm
2x Through the Breach

I'm not really looking for any financial advise on what to purchase first, I know the 2nd Volcanic will be really important with only the current fetches and no Scalding Tarn. However the 3rd one is a stretch too far at the moment. I'm also considering running Pyroblast in the sideboard. However this might lead to too much red in the sideboard with only the ability to fetch up a Volcanic at the moment and Wasteland will be an issue. Hence I might have to look at playing Blood Moon MD? I think Preordain might also be better than Gitaxian Probe in my case.

Many thanks for your advice :)

PS: I have access to all fetches from Onslaught. But currently buying Zendikar fetches is out of budget (sure hope they get reprinted... :D)

[JPA]

I made some budget decisions

The basic Mountain(s) are pretty much useless without Scalding Tarns. You could try playing 2 Wooded Foothills instead of 2 blue fetches, since they find your basic Mountain(s) and your Volcanic Island (getting a second one is really important, the third one is not that crucial).

A 4/1 split of Tomb/city is fine, even though I would heavily recommend 3/2 if you play with Boseiju in the sideboard.

You don't need more than 2 Blood Moons, it's the perfect SB number.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Hey guys,

Quick question about sideboarding, when is the best time/matchup to sub in Omniscience and Through the breach? What is the best thing to be subbing out when putting them in? I'd imagine at least some number of Sneak attacks would come out if Omni went in, due to having both in your hand seems bad?

For reference, here's the current list I'm playing with:

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Show and Tell
4 Spell Pierce

4 Lotus Petal
4 Sneak Attack

SIDEBOARD
2 Blood Moon
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Omniscience
2 Pyroclasm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Sudden Shock
2 Through the Breach
1 Wipe Away

Side note, I'm having some problems against D&T, though I know the matchup is more favorable to them than us. Any suggestions or tips on how to beat them though, especially post board? Even with 2 Pyroclasm and 2 blood moon to combat Karakas, I'm still having problems :X

[JPA]

Quick question about sideboarding, when is the best time/matchup to sub in Omniscience and Through the breach? What is the best thing to be subbing out when putting them in? I'd imagine at least some number of Sneak attacks would come out if Omni went in, due to having both in your hand seems bad?

It completely depends on the matchup, which makes it difficult to answer your question in a general way. Against Miracles, for example, you want both Omniscience and Through the Breach, but don't want to board out any Sneak Attacks. I rarely board out Sneak Attack, except against very fast decks, where boarding out 1 Sneak Attack is fine.


I'm having some problems against D&T, though I know the matchup is more favorable to them than us. Any suggestions or tips on how to beat them though, especially post board? Even with 2 Pyroclasm and 2 blood moon to combat Karakas, I'm still having problems :X

There aren't any secret tips, just try to play around their tax-effects / mana-denial (fetch basics, cast your Petals as early as possible) and hope your sideboard cards outmatch their hate. You could play specific D&T SB cards like Sulfur Elemental or Progenitus, but even then, the matchup is still negative overall and I don't think it's worth it to specifically dedicate sideboard slots to a deck that makes up only ~4% of the metagame.
If you can dodge the Revoker+Karakas lock and manage to win game 1, your chances for the post-board games are o.k. with Through the Breach, Pyroclasm, Sudden Shock, Blood Moon, Omniscience and bounce spells.

[RhoxWarMonk]

It completely depends on the matchup, which makes it difficult to answer your question in a general way. Against Miracles, for example, you want both Omniscience and Through the Breach, but don't want to board out any Sneak Attacks. I rarely board out Sneak Attack, except against very fast decks, where boarding out 1 Sneak Attack is fine.


That's fair. I guess, to ask a different way, what do you normally board out against Miracles in order to bring in the Omniscience and TTB? Miracles is a very common matchup for me here, lots of people playing it. I guess I was doing it wrong :confused:



There aren't any secret tips, just try to play around their tax-effects / mana-denial (fetch basics, cast your Petals as early as possible) and hope your sideboard cards outmatch their hate. You could play specific D&T SB cards like Sulfur Elemental or Progenitus, but even then, the matchup is still negative overall and I don't think it's worth it to specifically dedicate sideboard slots to a deck that makes up only ~4% of the metagame.
If you can dodge the Revoker+Karakas lock and manage to win game 1, your chances for the post-board games are o.k. with Through the Breach, Pyroclasm, Sudden Shock, Blood Moon, Omniscience and bounce spells.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to get more practice in against this deck. I find if I can take care of Thalia + Revoker, I have a good chance to win. Karakas is definitely a pain but it's much easier to work around with Sneak Attack in play (the Revoker though is a giant pain, as it always names Sneak Attack and I need to get that off the table to avoid the soft lock with Karakas).

[JPA]

what do you normally board out against Miracles in order to bring in the Omniscience and TTB?

With my MOCS list

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/mocslistea7i5rzpbv0.jpg

I board:

+2 Omniscience, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Through the Breach, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Sudden Shock, +1 Boseiju, who shelters all

-2 Lotus Petal, -1 Misdirection, -1 City of Traitors, -4 Preordain

I used to board out 1 Emrakul or 1 Show and Tell, but you want maximum threat density to fight through their counters and all 8 creatures to maximize your chance of having a creature alongside one of the 8 enablers or Show and Tell + Omniscience + creature. It also helps against Vendilion Clique (many Miracles lists play 3) and I've won many games (even in the MOCS semifinals) where my opponent Cliqued me with Show/Sneak/Breach on the stack and saw two copies of the same creature. So I don't mind drawing multiple creatures against Miracles as much as it annoys me in other matchups, where more than one fatty in hand is useless most of the time.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Excellent, I will give this a try as I run all of those cards in my SB (outside the REB) - thank you!!

The sudden shock was a little surprising, I assume you bring that in for Clique's and snapcasters?

[JPA]

The sudden shock was a little surprising, I assume you bring that in for Clique's and snapcasters?

No, for Containment Priest. Once in a while I might have to burn a Clique or Snapcaster or even finish off a Jace after he unsummons a fatty, but I wouldn't bring in Sudden Shock if I knew they played 0 Containment Priests (most lists play 1, some play 2).

[AnvilOfCrom]

Finished 5-1 today with the JPA list at a local tournament for 3rd place.

Matchups:
Miracles Mentor 2-0
The Gate 2-0
BUG 2-0
Lands 2-0
Aggro Loam 0-2
Thopter Foundry Combo 2-0

First time i picked the deck up since March 15. Was a lot of fun and it felt really strong. Even the match against Loam was winable but i played very poorly (kept bad hands and made bad decisions/plays).

[genuine fugazi]

There aren't any secret tips, just try to play around their tax-effects / mana-denial (fetch basics, cast your Petals as early as possible) and hope your sideboard cards outmatch their hate. You could play specific D&T SB cards like Sulfur Elemental or Progenitus, but even then, the matchup is still negative overall and I don't think it's worth it to specifically dedicate sideboard slots to a deck that makes up only ~4% of the metagame.
If you can dodge the Revoker+Karakas lock and manage to win game 1, your chances for the post-board games are o.k. with Through the Breach, Pyroclasm, Sudden Shock, Blood Moon, Omniscience and bounce spells.

What do you usually take out? Counterspells and a 1x Petal?

[JPA]

Finished 5-1 today with the JPA list at a local tournament for 3rd place.

Well done, congrats!


What do you usually take out? Counterspells and a 1x Petal?

Against Death and Taxes? With my current list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/365931#online) I board like this:

+2 Pyroclasm, +1 Sudden Shock, +2 Blood Moon, +2 Through the Breach, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Vendilion Clique

-3 Spell Pierce, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Misdirection, -2 Preordain, -2 Force of Will

[Ciubulu]

I played many legacy decks before trying (and falling in love with) s&s but I still don't have enough experience with the deck so... I have a couple of questions for the deck's experts: i found useful to use 2 blightsteel colossus main deck to avoid karakas lock and to have a one-shot kill out of my sneak attack, do you think is worth? my actual creature configuration is 3 Griselbrand 3 Emrakul 2 colossus, I also have Jtms that I'm still undecided if belongs to the main or not and could be switched with a 4th Emrakul (that imho is better than a 4th Griselbrand) . that's a question for @JPA
I noticed 2x kozilek's return instead of pyroclasm in your last decklist. it is good enough to replace it permanently? i will be happy to use it to answer a natural order or against death and taxes but my concern is if it's not too slow compared to pyroclasm especially when there is a taxing effect into play (I.e. Thalia or thorn of amethyst). what's your experience?

[dynamic_e]

i found useful to use 2 blightsteel colossus main deck to avoid karakas lock and to have a one-shot kill out of my sneak attack, do you think is worth? my actual creature configuration is 3 Griselbrand 3 Emrakul 2 colossus, I also have Jtms that I'm still undecided if belongs to the main or not and could be switched with a 4th Emrakul (that imho is better than a 4th Griselbrand) . that's a question for @JPA
I noticed 2x kozilek's return instead of pyroclasm in your last decklist. it is good enough to replace it permanently? i will be happy to use it to answer a natural order or against death and taxes but my concern is if it's not too slow compared to pyroclasm especially when there is a taxing effect into play (I.e. Thalia or thorn of amethyst). what's your experience?

Blightsteel is way too easily chumped and doesnt do anything other then be a big dude with infect. Need to either side echoing truth or wipe away or drop sneak attack with Show and Tell and just bang in the legendaries.

[Ciubulu]

Blightsteel is way too easily chumped and doesnt do anything other then be a big dude with infect. Need to either side echoing truth or wipe away or drop sneak attack with Show and Tell and just bang in the legendaries.

it's probably a meta call because in my local shop there are not many creature-heavy decks but even on xmage i stole some victories with it because it was unexpected. I found it useful even when it was not in play because it's a threat that led opponent to play conservatively, letting me to buy a couple of turns to build the combo or to find counters to combo safely. I will probably test it more and let you know my results

[JPA]

i found useful to use 2 blightsteel colossus main deck to avoid karakas lock

Firstly, there is no Karakas-lock (lock implying there is no way out). Secondly, I don't see the logic of main-decking a creature that gets hit by Swords to Plowshares (4-of in many decks) to play around Karakas, which you are much less likely to face than StP.

The only way I could see Blightsteel Colossus joining the wonder twins would be a white splash for Enlightened Tutor and running a 1-of Colossus to have the option of 1-shotting. As it stands, I don't see any reason to run another creature-configuration than 4 Emrakul / 4 Griselbrand (unless one plays multiple copies of Intuition, in which case 1 Emrakul could get cut).


I also have Jtms that I'm still undecided if belongs to the main or not and could be switched with a 4th Emrakul (that imho is better than a 4th Griselbrand)

I like Jace as a 1-of main deck, mostly as another threat in grindy matchups (Miracles, Shardless BUG, Mirror). If you were to cut Jace, a 4th Griselbrand is probably better than the 4th Emrakul, since he's the safest Show and Tell target in most cases.



I noticed 2x kozilek's return instead of pyroclasm in your last decklist. it is good enough to replace it permanently?

It has been pretty good, yes. The disadvantage over Pyroclasm is obvious and it is only one - the additional :1:. The advantages are its instantaneousness and colorlessness, which is relevant against Mother of Runes and fringe-sideboard cards like Hydroblast.

So far, the additional mana has not bothered me, even though it changed the way I used my cantrips a little bit (digging for or keeping more sol-lands, for example). Pyroclasm gets cast via sol-lands often enough, so the downside is not that big for a deck with 5 of those.

I've done some nice plays where the instantaneousness (is that even a word? x) ) was highly relevant. Against Dredge, my opponent sacrificed a Narcomoeba to flashback Cabal Therapy, triggering three Bridges from Below with a Dread Return in graveyard. After resolving the Bridge-triggers, I cast Kozilek's Return, killing the three Zombies, thus denying Dread Return to get flashbacked.
There are other less spectular examples, but that was the one that I enjoyed the most.

I'm still unsure if it will replace Pyroclasm, but I'll definitely keep testing with Kozilek's Return.

[Ciubulu]

thanks a lot for your answer, your argument is valid and I considered the white splash before, mainly for tutoring and to have more options out of the sideboard. About kozilek's return thanks for sharing your experience, I will try it too :-)


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[Tokugawa]

Horde of Eldrazi aggro players would be emerging in next weeks. Any suggestion about SB strategy?

[AnvilOfCrom]

Horde of Eldrazi aggro players would be emerging in next weeks. Any suggestion about SB strategy?

I think we will need at least 1-2 SB Cards against their Artifacts (Trinisphere, Chalice, Needle etc.) i.e. Shattering Spree.

[movingtonewao]

Could this be the day shatterstorm finally takes a bow?

[RhoxWarMonk]

Could this be the day shatterstorm finally takes a bow?

The Eldrazi are colorless but not artifacts.

I'm also not convinced Eldrazi Stompy will be a real thing in Legacy, it's a very different format than modern.

[JPA]

Horde of Eldrazi aggro players would be emerging in next weeks. Any suggestion about SB strategy?

Did I miss something? I don't see the Eldrazi deck taking over Legacy anytime soon (quote me in a few weeks if I was wrong xD ) and the matchup is close enough to not require specific sideboard answers. Chalice and Trinisphere do nothing against the actual combo part of our deck and Needle/Revoker effects can be fought with bounce spells and Through the Breach (which doesn't get hit by Warping Wail).
The only card out of their deck that actually scares me is Thought-Knot Seer.

[Technics]

Has anyone played with Warping Wail yet? It kills many relevant things (Xantid Swarm, Revoker, Thalia, Spirit of Lab.) As well as helping in other areas with discard and against ANT.

[Tokugawa]

Has anyone played with Warping Wail yet? It kills many relevant things (Xantid Swarm, Revoker, Thalia, Spirit of Lab.) As well as helping in other areas with discard and against ANT.

WW could play a "suprising" role in a deck which usually has no access to counter spells at all(goblins,MUD.etc). SneakShow is different...

For the removal mode, IMO sudden shock is more reliable.

[Ragdoll]

How do you guys feel about probes right now? Are they still played in this deck or are they switched to preordains? What is the current situation with the cantrips? I would be glad if someone elaborated on this one :smile:

[JPA]

How do you guys feel about probes right now? Are they still played in this deck or are they switched to preordains? What is the current situation with the cantrips?

Almost any cantrip configuration is viable right now (4 Brainstorm / 4 Ponder are set in stone). It really depends on your playstyle, your list and the metagame you expect. In an open metagame (GP / SCG Open), I'd probably go with 3 Probe / 1 Preordain or 3 Probe / 1 Intuition (the "super" cantrip). I prefer the digging-power of Preordain over Intuition for my current lists, since it helps to find my SB 1-ofs (Sudden Shock, Wipe Away, Boseiju, for example).

[anakyn]

How do you guys feel about probes right now? Are they still played in this deck or are they switched to preordains? What is the current situation with the cantrips? I would be glad if someone elaborated on this one :smile:

I never played Probe in this deck and I never really understood why most players prefer it to Preordain: we don't play Cabal Therapy and we don't use our graveyard, so I guess Preordain is the best choice here.

[Sunday Funday]

I never played Probe in this deck and I never really understood why most players prefer it to Preordain: we don't play Cabal Therapy and we don't use our graveyard, so I guess Preordain is the best choice here.

Free cantrip that replaces itself and also checks if the coast is clear to jam the combo.

[Ragdoll]

Thanks for the clarification guys :smile:



Free cantrip that replaces itself and also checks if the coast is clear to jam the combo.

All great except that it draws sh**t in exchange of itself :tongue:

[Sunday Funday]

Thanks for the clarification guys :smile:




All great except that it draws sh**t in exchange of itself :tongue:

Well...it's free (2 life but boo hoo) and the information is very valuable. Forget the card draw sometimes...sometimes you just want to know what's in their hand! :wink:

[anakyn]

Free cantrip that replaces itself and also checks if the coast is clear to jam the combo.

Thanks, I already knew what Probe does :wink: :tongue:
And I love the card so much that I even play it in Canadian Threshold (besides ANT and the DTT Omnitell, of course), so I'm not biased against it.

But the matter is: in a deck that doesn't use graveyard and doesn't play neither Cabal Therapy nor Stifle, is Probe's effect better than Preordain's?
Of course knowing opponent's hand is good, but the "cantrip" Probe offers is... well, it's simply bad.
On the other hand, Preordain tells you nothing about the opponent, but is quite good in assembling your combo (worse than Brainstorm and Preordan overall, but in certain situations is better than both).

So, the question is: what do we need the most between A) gaining information about opponent's hand and 2) having a better tool to assemble our own hand?

In my opinion, we need both, but usually I have more problems in finding my combo pieces than having trouble with opponent's permission/disruption.
Our deck is designed to win counterwars IMHO. Both pre-board and post-board games, when we pack even more counters. Most of the time I don't care about opponent's hand because I know I'll win the counterwar. On the other hand, not finding all my combo pieces in time is, in my experience, the main reason why I lose some games.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Thanks, I already knew what Probe does :wink: :tongue:
And I love the card so much that I even play it in Canadian Threshold (besides ANT and the DTT Omnitell, of course), so I'm not biased against it.

But the matter is: in a deck that doesn't use graveyard and doesn't play neither Cabal Therapy nor Stifle, is Probe's effect better than Preordain's?
Of course knowing opponent's hand is good, but the "cantrip" Probe offers is... well, it's simply bad.
On the other hand, Preordain tells you nothing about the opponent, but is quite good in assembling your combo (worse than Brainstorm and Preordan overall, but in certain situations is better than both).

So, the question is: what do we need the most between A) gaining information about opponent's hand and 2) having a better tool to assemble our own hand?

In my opinion, we need both, but usually I have more problems in finding my combo pieces than having trouble with opponent's permission/disruption.
Our deck is designed to win counterwars IMHO. Both pre-board and post-board games, when we pack even more counters. Most of the time I don't care about opponent's hand because I know I'll win the counterwar. On the other hand, not finding all my combo pieces in time is, in my experience, the main reason why I lose some games.

I agree - when I first started playing this deck, I originally went with the Probes, thinking knowing what my opponents hand is was way more valuable than a scry-card draw card like Preordain. Besides, Probe gives you a draw too right, so same thing :tongue: LOL

After practicing with it some more though, I've switched to the 4x Preordain build and haven't looked back. I also feel this is more of a personal playstyle preference -- for example, I noticed JPA has had a lot of success with both the preordain and the git probe builds online, so I don't think there's any real right/wrong answer here. From my personal experience though, preordain is much better, at least for me and my playstyle. I need help getting the combo pieces, counterwars I can usually win -- especially with a 1x Flusterstorm main that I've been using to some success.

On a similar topic, has anyone tried a 1 or 2 of Daze in this deck? There's been so many times I desperately want to slam down show and tell when my opponent is tapped out but without a Force of Will, it's a little tough to try. I've literally had some of my opponents tell me they've been playing around Daze all game and it's the only real card they were concerned about (in regards to me playing Show and Tell I mean), so it's something I've wanted to try... figure I could cut a couple Spell Pierce for them to playtest with but it's possible I just need to learn to be more patient as well.

[Sigi85]

Thanks, I already knew what Probe does :wink: :tongue:
And I love the card so much that I even play it in Canadian Threshold (besides ANT and the DTT Omnitell, of course), so I'm not biased against it.

But the matter is: in a deck that doesn't use graveyard and doesn't play neither Cabal Therapy nor Stifle, is Probe's effect better than Preordain's?
Of course knowing opponent's hand is good, but the "cantrip" Probe offers is... well, it's simply bad.
On the other hand, Preordain tells you nothing about the opponent, but is quite good in assembling your combo (worse than Brainstorm and Preordan overall, but in certain situations is better than both).

So, the question is: what do we need the most between A) gaining information about opponent's hand and 2) having a better tool to assemble our own hand?

In my opinion, we need both, but usually I have more problems in finding my combo pieces than having trouble with opponent's permission/disruption.
Our deck is designed to win counterwars IMHO. Both pre-board and post-board games, when we pack even more counters. Most of the time I don't care about opponent's hand because I know I'll win the counterwar. On the other hand, not finding all my combo pieces in time is, in my experience, the main reason why I lose some games.

Hi Guys !

is a couple of years that i play sneak and show with good results, i think is Always one of the best deck in the meta!
reguarding the question about Probe or Preordain build , i prefer 100% the second one, for many reasons :
-1 with the experience you can "read" the hand of your opponent.
-2 with preordain you can dig your deck better, searching for answers or combo pieces
-3 there are game scenarios when you look your oppo hand and you see that is full of counter, and you cant never win the counter war (with point 1 and preordain you can dig for a counter).

I would like to do some questions to the comunity:

-1 Are you so sure that Eldrazi stompy is a good MU? in my opinion about the test on cocka the match is not so obvious... they have lock cards such as Trinisphere and Chalice , and if you aren't able to assemble your combo in the first 3 turn, the eldrazi that exile a card and the 5/5 with haste, could race your life point very fast...is also true, that if you are able to do a fast show and tell, they cant win.

-2 As JPA , i'm testing Kozilek's Retun and the results are really good, the istant speed and devoid are Amazing, i do some really good play with it(resp to a fetch for the Stonforge activation- eot against D&T with mother of the runes and other hate bear).

Bye bye

[anakyn]

-1 Are you so sure that Eldrazi stompy is a good MU? in my opinion about the test on cocka the match is not so obvious... they have lock cards such as Trinisphere and Chalice , and if you aren't able to assemble your combo in the first 3 turn, the eldrazi that exile a card and the 5/5 with haste, could race your life point very fast...is also true, that if you are able to do a fast show and tell, they cant win.

-2 As JPA , i'm testing Kozilek's Retun and the results are really good, the istant speed and devoid are Amazing, i do some really good play with it(resp to a fetch for the Stonforge activation- eot against D&T with mother of the runes and other hate bear).


1) I never played it yet, but I guess Eldrazi Stompy is a good matchup on the paper.
Both Chalice and Trini do nothing on our combo pieces, and while Chalice is annoying because they can land it on turn1 stopping our cantripping, Trini usually lands too late to matter. I guess we just: A) Force the Chalice if we need to shoot our cantrips; B) ignore both Chalice and Trini
The 5/5 haste should be too slow to win before we combo out (hopefully), while it's true that Thought-Knot Seer could be a problem if it lands on turn 2.
Well, I guess we just need one FoW to stop either Chalice or Thought-Knot and we should be good.

2) I didn't test Kozilek's Return yet, but the 3CC (compared to the 2CC of Pyroclasm) scares me a little in the D&T matchup, with all the mana denial they have. Since it's an instant we can cast it in response to Rishadan's activation, but the point of using Return should be to cast it on opponent's turn.
I didn't consider at all it's colorless, therefore bypassing Mother of runes' protection: that's really huge.
I'll surely test it in the place of Pyroclasm on the first occasion I'll have.

[Sigi85]

1) I never played it yet, but I guess Eldrazi Stompy is a good matchup on the paper.
Both Chalice and Trini do nothing on our combo pieces, and while Chalice is annoying because they can land it on turn1 stopping our cantripping, Trini usually lands too late to matter. I guess we just: A) Force the Chalice if we need to shoot our cantrips; B) ignore both Chalice and Trini
The 5/5 haste should be too slow to win before we combo out (hopefully), while it's true that Thought-Knot Seer could be a problem if it lands on turn 2.
Well, I guess we just need one FoW to stop either Chalice or Thought-Knot and we should be good.

The fact is that if that they do chaliche, we can't protect our combo pieces from Thought-Knot Seer(they also play cavern of souls,so no force of will), and if they slow down our combo of 1 or 2 turn (we are without cantrip, and they play thorn of ametist) maybe is too late, because as i said they do a fast clock...
With this consideration, i'm not so scary about this match-up, but in my opinion, we haven't to understimate it,because it might get hurt :)

[anakyn]

The fact is that if that they do chaliche, we can't protect our combo pieces from Thought-Knot Seer(they also play cavern of souls,so no force of will), and if they slow down our combo of 1 or 2 turn (we are without cantrip, and they play thorn of ametist) maybe is too late, because as i said they do a fast clock...
With this consideration, i'm not so scary about this match-up, but in my opinion, we haven't to understimate it,because it might get hurt :)

You're right, FoW will probably be useless against TKS because of Cavern... well, that's the card which scares me the most.
But we have many combo pieces (8x fatties and 8x enablers) and lots of cantrips to find others, so I guess the only lethal combination would be both Chalice @1 (to stop cantrips) and TKS (to remove pieces): one of them alone shouldn't be too problematic.

[Sigi85]

You're right, FoW will probably be useless against TKS because of Cavern... well, that's the card which scares me the most.
But we have many combo pieces (8x fatties and 8x enablers) and lots of cantrips to find others, so I guess the only lethal combination would be both Chalice @1 (to stop cantrips) and TKS (to remove pieces): one of them alone shouldn't be too problematic.

Your analysis is correct!
in fact i'm moving to play again Through the Breach on my sideboard, card that is a bit i'm not running but can be a one more bomb to play!
i think aslo that a card or 2 between Intuition and Jace tms will have space in my mainboard, to exit better from the Chalice Lock!

[Ciubulu]

I would like to do some questions to the comunity:

-1 Are you so sure that Eldrazi stompy is a good MU? in my opinion about the test on cocka the match is not so obvious... they have lock cards such as Trinisphere and Chalice , and if you aren't able to assemble your combo in the first 3 turn, the eldrazi that exile a card and the 5/5 with haste, could race your life point very fast...is also true, that if you are able to do a fast show and tell, they cant win.

-2 As JPA , i'm testing Kozilek's Retun and the results are really good, the istant speed and devoid are Amazing, i do some really good play with it(resp to a fetch for the Stonforge activation- eot against D&T with mother of the runes and other hate bear).

Bye bye

1 - the best they can do is a Chalice on the play when you have only one piece of the combo in hand. They cannot directly interact with the combo except for TKS and, if they play it, warping weil. They have a very fast clock but I think is definitely a good mu.

2- in my testing the +1 mana is never been a problem and I found kozilek's return is superior to pyroclasm in any other way.


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[genuine fugazi]

What's the sideboard plan against Grixis Delver? Let's take this (http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/597716) list as an example.

My line of thinking:
+2 Kozilek's Return - kills all their threats except for the zombie fish.
+2 Flusterstorm, +1 REB - cheap way to deal with their counterspells.
+1 Boseiju - likely to get wasted, but if it let's you force a S&T through, then it's game over.

-1 Repeal - bouncing a DRS or an elemental token doesn't seem impactful enough.
-2 Force of Will - not that great against discard and we have plenty cheap counterspells postboard.
-1 Preordain, -2 Probe - when in doubt, take some cantrips out :)

Not sure about Blood Moon. They don't seem to have any basics, but they still can play Young Pyromancer, which ends games quickly by itself.

Does this make any sense? :)

[JPA]

Does this make any sense? :)

It does! :smile:

I don't bring in Blood Moon, but it can be a viable strategy on the play. It's way too slow on the draw and they can often even let it resolve and win with a Young Pyromancer army backed by REBs and FoWs.

Repeal is much more useful in the matchup than you think, it buys time by bouncing flipped Delvers for U, hits the 1-of Needle many Grixis Delver lists play and is basically never dead.

My boarding plan against Grixis (4c) Delver:

+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Kozilek's Return, +1 Wipe Away (for Needle), +1 Sudden Shock (killing Young Pyromancer buys a huge amount of time), +1 Red Elemental Blast

-3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Misdirection (doesn't do much against Cabal Therapy and FoW is a bit more versatile, since it can hit hateful cards like Pithing Needle / Clique or even Young Pyromancer if you know they don't have anything else going on), either -3 Force of Will or -2 Force of Will -1 Preordain or -1 Emrakul -2 Force of Will or -1 Emrakul -1 Force of Will -1 Preordain.

This plan might change depending on unusual card-choices from my opponent or my general feel for the opponent/matchup.

Your plan is just as viable and your reasoning makes total sense.

[Ragdoll]

It does! :smile:

I don't bring in Blood Moon, but it can be a viable strategy on the play. It's way too slow on the draw and they can often even let it resolve and win with a Young Pyromancer army backed by REBs and FoWs.

Repeal is much more useful in the matchup than you think, it buys time by bouncing flipped Delvers for U, hits the 1-of Needle many Grixis Delver lists play and is basically never dead.

My boarding plan against Grixis (4c) Delver:

+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Kozilek's Return, +1 Wipe Away (for Needle), +1 Sudden Shock (killing Young Pyromancer buys a huge amount of time), +1 Red Elemental Blast

-3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Misdirection (doesn't do much against Cabal Therapy and FoW is a bit more versatile, since it can hit hateful cards like Pithing Needle / Clique or even Young Pyromancer if you know they don't have anything else going on), either -3 Force of Will or -2 Force of Will -1 Preordain or -1 Emrakul -2 Force of Will or -1 Emrakul -1 Force of Will -1 Preordain.

This plan might change depending on unusual card-choices from my opponent or my general feel for the opponent/matchup.

Your plan is just as viable and your reasoning makes total sense.

Is it possible to get your current list somewhere? :smile: (latest version)

[JPA]

Is it possible to get your current list somewhere? :smile: (latest version)


Let's take this (http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/597716) list as an example.

[Ragdoll]

Oh shit, I've missed it:eek:. Sorry and thanks :laugh:

[genuine fugazi]

Thanks for the feedback JPA.


Repeal is much more useful in the matchup than you think, it buys time by bouncing flipped Delvers for U, hits the 1-of Needle many Grixis Delver lists play and is basically never dead.
Sounds pretty good, maybe I should give it a try :) I'm currently playing with 1x Fire // Ice MD, which also seems like a solid one to keep post sb.

On a slightly unrelated note, I've been playing with 2x Goblin Rabblemaster in SB yesterday (just because I like the card...), with an intention to use it against mirror, Lands and Miracles. Didn't get a chance to try it in those matches, but got some mixed results from 12 Post games. G2 I drew Rabblemaster too late to matter, G3 played him turn 2 and a few turns later my opponent was dead to a gang of goblins :cool:
What do you people think about some Rabblemasters in SB?

[Tokugawa]

Did I miss something? I don't see the Eldrazi deck taking over Legacy anytime soon (quote me in a few weeks if I was wrong xD ) and the matchup is close enough to not require specific sideboard answers. Chalice and Trinisphere do nothing against the actual combo part of our deck and Needle/Revoker effects can be fought with bounce spells and Through the Breach (which doesn't get hit by Warping Wail).
The only card out of their deck that actually scares me is Thought-Knot Seer.
This time, you and 2 Eldrazi players reached top8 in the event. Did you meet them during your rounds?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11612&f=LE

[JPA]

This time, you and 2 Eldrazi players reached top8 in the event. Did you meet them during your rounds?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11612&f=LE

The lists posted all went 5-0 in Legacy Leagues over the last few days, so we probably didn't face each other. Funnily enough, my list is from 2014 (Dylan Jones Top 8d both SCGIndy (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62378) and SCGNash (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63416) with it, going undefeated in all 18 swiss rounds), I just played it for fun and because I really like how the configuration feels.

I didn't keep record of my matches with the posted list, but with my own current list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/374493#online) I faced the Eldrazi deck in 7 matches and went 4-3, which confirms my theory that the matchup is pretty close and even.
I'm 2-5 pre-board (Warping Wail + Revoker can be extremely annoying to deal with if I don't find Repeal) and 8-4 post-board against them. Blood Moon, Through the Breach and Wipe Away give us more outs to whatever they throw at us, so I like our chances post-board.

Boarding plan against Eldrazi:
+2 Through the Breach
+2 Blood Moon
+1 Wipe Away
+2 Kozilek's Return
+1 Sudden Shock

-3 Spell Pierce
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Misdirection
-1 Force of Will

[Sigi85]

The lists posted all went 5-0 in Legacy Leagues over the last few days, so we probably didn't face each other. Funnily enough, my list is from 2014 (Dylan Jones Top 8d both SCGIndy (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62378) and SCGNash (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63416) with it, going undefeated in all 18 swiss rounds), I just played it for fun and because I really like how the configuration feels.

I didn't keep record of my matches with the posted list, but with my own current list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/374493#online) I faced the Eldrazi deck in 7 matches and went 4-3, which confirms my theory that the matchup is pretty close and even.
I'm 2-5 pre-board (Warping Wail + Revoker can be extremely annoying to deal with if I don't find Repeal) and 8-4 post-board against them. Blood Moon, Through the Breach and Wipe Away give us more outs to whatever they throw at us, so I like our chances post-board.

Boarding plan against Eldrazi:
+2 Through the Breach
+2 Blood Moon
+1 Wipe Away
+2 Kozilek's Return
+1 Sudden Shock

-3 Spell Pierce
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Misdirection
-1 Force of Will

Hi JPA,

As i wrote in some previous post, the MU against Eldrazi can be annoying, their clock is very very fast, and their lock is systematic , the most time when i win is a fast show for Emarkul, praying that they dont have Endbringer (i dont use gitaxian probe).
In this moment there are more eldrazi list (online i faced the GW Barook's List loosing 2 set on 1, his list is even more hateful...), on this purpose i think about a change in my sidebord, what did you think about Blazing Archon? he can bring us more time, and they difficoult remove it.
i also think that Jace tms or/and Intuition, in this moment need a 2 slot in main, for the fact that they didn't go under Chalice of the Void.

Bye

[JPA]

on this purpose i think about a change in my sidebord, what did you think about Blazing Archon? he can bring us more time, and they difficoult remove it.
i also think that Jace tms or/and Intuition, in this moment need a 2 slot in main, for the fact that they didn't go under Chalice of the Void.


I don't think Eldrazi will be popular enough in non-mtgo tournaments to warrant specific sideboard lots. I like my chances against them with my current sideboard.
Blazing Archon seems terribly narrow and does nothing with Sneak Attack and Through the Breach, I'd rather play Propaganda. :laugh:

Intuition might be a better choice than the 1-of Preordain in my list, if Chalice-decks keep getting more popular.

[Tokugawa]

Hi JPA,

As i wrote in some previous post, the MU against Eldrazi can be annoying, their clock is very very fast, and their lock is systematic , the most time when i win is a fast show for Emarkul, praying that they dont have Endbringer (i dont use gitaxian probe).
In this moment there are more eldrazi list (online i faced the GW Barook's List loosing 2 set on 1, his list is even more hateful...), on this purpose i think about a change in my sidebord, what did you think about Blazing Archon? he can bring us more time, and they difficoult remove it.
i also think that Jace tms or/and Intuition, in this moment need a 2 slot in main, for the fact that they didn't go under Chalice of the Void.

Bye

Thoughtknot seer and Reality smasher have just eaten JTMS for breakfast:eek:. His -1 can't buy much time against Eldrazis.

Blazing Archon does not have good synergy with sneak attack. How about trying Ashen Rider?

[Tokugawa]

I didn't keep record of my matches with the posted list, but with my own current list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/374493#online) I faced the Eldrazi deck in 7 matches and went 4-3, which confirms my theory that the matchup is pretty close and even.
I'm 2-5 pre-board (Warping Wail + Revoker can be extremely annoying to deal with if I don't find Repeal) and 8-4 post-board against them. Blood Moon, Through the Breach and Wipe Away give us more outs to whatever they throw at us, so I like our chances post-board.

Boarding plan against Eldrazi:
+2 Through the Breach
+2 Blood Moon
+1 Wipe Away
+2 Kozilek's Return
+1 Sudden Shock

-3 Spell Pierce
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Misdirection
-1 Force of Will
Nice analysis. So keep all 4 Petal postboard for a fast combo?

[HeartNana]

Hey guys :)
I am trying this list at the moment (inspired by JPA)
and I'm very happy with it.
MAIN(60):
4 Emrakul,the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Fire/Ice (I prefer it over Repeal)
1 Flusterstorm (I prefer it over Misdirection)
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
1 Polluted Delta
2 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
SIDEBOARD(15):
2 Defense Grid (I would never go to a tournament without them)
2 Blood Moon
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sudden Shock
2 Through the Breach
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wipe Away

At the moment it seems Miracle is a little bit dead and now eldrazi can become the most played decks like modern.
Online you can see them and in regionals the number is also raising.
So maybe we have to change the preordain against intuiton like JPA said a few posts before :p
Blazing archon would be great but not in a deck like sneak show :(
Maybe i will change the clique against an ashen rider for the eldrzi mu.

About kozilek's return I can say this card is fucking awesome against most of our fucking mu's.
1) Death and Taxes it kills mother which is amazing
2) the instant speed against decks infect and dredge ist also very awesome
3) blue elemental blast fail haha
4) i tested a lot of matches against elves and i never had the feeling that i wanted to have pyroclam over it .

[wolfstorm]

Just went undefeated into a top 4 split with the highest standings at GP Houston's legacy showdown, 96 players total - deck list and pairings to come later, only lost 1 game in 7 rounds and 2 in the top 8 :D

[Tokugawa]

Just went undefeated into a top 4 split with the highest standings at GP Houston's legacy showdown, 94 players total - deck list and pairings to come later, only lost 2 games in 7 rounds and 1 in the top 8 :D

Well done! How about the metagame? Is it flooded by Eldrazis?

[Tokugawa]

I don't think Eldrazi will be popular enough in non-mtgo tournaments to warrant specific sideboard lots. I like my chances against them with my current sideboard.
Blazing Archon seems terribly narrow and does nothing with Sneak Attack and Through the Breach, I'd rather play Propaganda. :laugh:

Intuition might be a better choice than the 1-of Preordain in my list, if Chalice-decks keep getting more popular.

9 Eldrazis players advanced to day 2(total 64 players) of SCG Philly.

Maybe it is time to have some minor tweak to our deck.

[wolfstorm]

Well done! How about the metagame? Is it flooded by Eldrazis? Two Eldrazi decks out of 96 players, both using similar lists - one went 2-2 drop and the made it to second place, I beat him in the Swiss and after playing out the top 4 for bragging rights (final top 4 was Sneak and show 1st, eldrazi 2nd, Aggro Loam 3rd, and GW Loam knight fourth). 5-8th contained 2 lands, miracles, and I think mud? Also the top table didn't have many blue decks and only one eldrazi, 5 or so burn decks, 2-3 lands, aggro loam, gw knight, only one miracles and only 1-2 delver, didn't see any storm.

My matchups:
R1 Merfolk 2-0
R2 BR Reanimator 2-0
R3 UG infect 2-0
R4 Burn 2-0
R5 Eldrazi 2-1 (2nd place player)
R6 GW Knight Loam 2-0 (fourth place player)
R7 ID
Top 8 Lands 2-1
Finals Eldrazi 2-1 (The other two players wanted to go home after we split top 4 prize)

And finally the deck list that I chose to rock -


//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Force of will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Show and Tell

//Enchantments
4 Sneak Attack
2 Omniscience

//Critters
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

//Mana
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

//Sideboard
2 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle

Putting Omniscience into play is insane vs Karakas / Maze of ith, and makes S&T for Griselbrand stronger, usually enabling a win either on that turn or on the following.

I also was able to Show and tell Omniscience twice in two different games vs Eldrazi on turn 2, both times he dropped a Thought-knot seer, one time hiding a Emrakul ontop and revealing grisel/ponder/petal, the second time hiding Griselbrand off brainstorm which I free casted on the following turn into d14 into Emrakul.

Edit - Funny, I just now realized I managed to make it on camera during r1 - https://twitter.com/CFB_Events/status/703672247999963137

[chuckado]

Do you guys think this deck is well positioned in an open meta such as a GP or a SCG event?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[MGB]

Do you guys think this deck is well positioned in an open meta such as a GP or a SCG event?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Not really now, if Lands, Miracles, and Eldrazi are going to be the top 3 most popular decks in the format. Especially once people figure out that the white splash is the best version of Eldrazi with multiple Karakas and Eldrazi Displacers.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Not really now, if Lands, Miracles, and Eldrazi are going to be the top 3 most popular decks in the format. Especially once people figure out that the white splash is the best version of Eldrazi with multiple Karakas and Eldrazi Displacers.

Is the Eldrazi deck even a good match up against sneak and show? Doesn't feel like it is but I haven't played against it yet myself..

Eldrazi displacer is an absolute beating of a card but I feel it causes the deck to lose consistency as well. Personally not convinced that's the right approach over the colorless build.

[Shamaatae]

Sorry if this has been discussed but what are your fav answers to containment priest and karakas?
should i just board in pyroclasm/kozileks return vs miracles?

is needle worth bringing in the sb? tsabo's web?

[genuine fugazi]

Against Priest you want to board in Sudden Shock. I don't think that Web or Blood Moon are worth bringing in against Miracles, I'd rather rely on having Sneak Attack with multiple red sources or EOT activation to push Emrakul through. Not sure about Pyroclasm, I think I'd bring it in if they play Mentor. If you run Fire // Ice in your deck, that's also pretty good, answers both Priest and Karakas.

[Ellomdian]

Sorry if this has been discussed but what are your fav answers to containment priest and karakas?
should i just board in pyroclasm/kozileks return vs miracles?

is needle worth bringing in the sb? tsabo's web?

I prefer to just acknowledge that the deck has a truly awful matchup against DnT, and to a lesser extent, Miracles Post-Board. If you can afford the slots, I have boarded Pyrohemia (Nice Mother of Runes, DO IT AGAIN) and Inferno Titan in rooms where I felt that there was going to be a large Mother/Mentor/Delver presence.

I like Needle in the SB, but I like general-purpose answers. Needle is going to be effective more often against Sensi's Top than Karakas, but I am certainly bringing in Needle against DnT (even if I am frequently naming Port and Wasteland first.)

[Shamaatae]

I prefer to just acknowledge that the deck has a truly awful matchup against DnT, and to a lesser extent, Miracles Post-Board. If you can afford the slots, I have boarded Pyrohemia (Nice Mother of Runes, DO IT AGAIN) and Inferno Titan in rooms where I felt that there was going to be a large Mother/Mentor/Delver presence.

I like Needle in the SB, but I like general-purpose answers. Needle is going to be effective more often against Sensi's Top than Karakas, but I am certainly bringing in Needle against DnT (even if I am frequently naming Port and Wasteland first.)



This is my last "big" local meta:

ANT x4
Elves x3
Infect x2
DNT x2
Grixis Delver
Esper Deathblade
Miracles
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Stiflenought
Lands
Tezzerator
Loam Pox

There's usually several BUG players but I guess none showed.

How would you sideboard?
lots of flustersstorms and sweepers seem good. sudden shock seems like almost a 2 of. 2 cages atleast. blood moon seem ok.

[wasabizod]

Not really now, if Lands, Miracles, and Eldrazi are going to be the top 3 most popular decks in the format. Especially once people figure out that the white splash is the best version of Eldrazi with multiple Karakas and Eldrazi Displacers.

Is it possible to run main deck blood moon as a hedge? I know it can hurt us since it turns off tomb and city, but it seems like that shuts down lands and eldrazi if you land it early, so it may be worth it. Granted it's not helpful against Miracles given the high number of basics.

[Tokugawa]

Is it possible to run main deck blood moon as a hedge? I know it can hurt us since it turns off tomb and city, but it seems like that shuts down lands and eldrazi if you land it early, so it may be worth it. Granted it's not helpful against Miracles given the high number of basics.

It depends on the % of the said decks in your metagame.

[neverhasit]

Gave Sneak and Show a spin at a weeknight LGS four rounder. Meta is fairly eldrazi, delver, + midrange trying to prey on those decks heavy (shardless, nic fit, loam, etc...)

Ran stock 51 w/ flex slots as:
4x spell pierce
2x preordain
1x gitaxian probe
1x jtms
1x misdirection

SB:
2x blood moon
1x grafdigger's cage
1x pithing needle
3x pyroclasm
1x boseiju
2x through the breach
1x wipe away
1x pyroblast
1x reb
1x flusterstorm
1x sudden shock

R1:
Newer eldrazi stompy player running chalice/trinisphere split.
G1 I mull to 5 and keep a hand with petal, land, snt, griselbrand. t1 Chalice, t2 trinisphere gets me in conjunction with not lucking into a land in top 3.
G2 He has another chalice->trinisphere start, but I have a 7 with 3 petals and a sneak attack that I get into play. I have no playable card selection and he hasn't developed his board, so I wait a turn to emrakul taking the risk on revoker, clear his board after that, and eventually draw into the second threat.
G3 he mulls to 5 and I have a reasonable draw.

Boarded -2 preordain, -1 probe, -1 misdirection, -2 spell pierce
+2 blood moon, +3 pyroclasm, +1 sudden shock

1-0 Matches 2-1 games

R2:
Reanimator (no green splash)
G1 He has a t2 tidespout and disruption and absolutely murders me.
G2 We get into an interesting board state where I have active griselbrand and he has an archon to stop attacks, I draw into wipe away and he tries to force it - so I point out split second. That's good enough and we go to G3.
G3 He mulls once and gets a fast griselbrand off of careful study reanimate after I force an entomb. I'm resource light and behind, so I go for one of the two show and tell I kept in to put Emrakul into play. He makes a bit of a play error and doesn't griselbrand in response - and ends up just putting in a land. On his turn he gets some cards with GB, tanks, chains cantrips, puts tidespout into play and then concedes. He thought that he couldn't target emrakul with the tidespout trigger. I feel a bit guilty about the win here, but I don't feel it's my responsibility to inform the opponent in that situation.

2-0 matches (probably should be 1-1) 4-2 games

SB: -2 preordain, -1 gitaxian probe, -2 show and tell, -1 mountain
+1 wipe away, + 1 grafdigger's cage, +1 flusterstorm, +1 reb, +1 pyroblast, +1 boseiju

Did not board differently on play vs. draw.

R3:
ANT
G1 We both keep 7 with me on the play. I keep a hand with petal, sneak, force + pierce, emrakul, lands. He has a slow cantrip heavy draw and I get there on turn 4.
G2 Opponent goes off after some early game therapy/counter posturing. One more force is enough to force him to warrens for 14 instead of go for the kill. I end up in a situation with sneak in play and 2 GB in hand where I can either go for the kill by digging 14 cards + cantrips deep for an Emrakul or pass and try to slow his clock by dropping another GB. After doing the combat math it doesn't actually slow the clock, so I put myself on a one turn clock digging and do not get there.
G3 T3 sneak -> GB to go to 25 life -> flash in another GB to answer going off on his turn -> t4 spaghetti is sufficient.

SB: -2 preordain, -1 misdirection, -1 gitaxian probe
+1 pyroclasm, +1 flusterstorm, +1 reb, +1 pyroblast.

3-0 matches, 6-3 games.

R4:
ID with opponent who wants to go home and playtest for a while instead of playing the match. I play 10 preboard games vs. a friend on grixis delver and we go 5-5. He won basically every game with a t1 delver and lost the others.

3-0-1

I was happy with the deck - skimming this thread was useful in putting it together and piloting it. I split between probe and preordain to try both and was MUCH happier with preordain.

One interesting question I have not resolved yet is when to force in order to delay a clock. From testing with the grixis player - I am thinking it makes sense to force a t1 delver when we're on the play and we did not cantrip t1 so as to have daze mana. We just have so much time if they do not stick that initial threat, and we can draw into lands to blank dazes. Not sure about this however.

I'm thinking to try out two izzet charm instead of the probe and a single spell pierce or the jace. Against all the delver lists having a card that eats a daze before we try to resolve our threat seems worth it, and sometimes it just puts them off a clock completely. Seems better than alternatives since it's still live against decks like ANT.

[JPA]

One interesting question I have not resolved yet is when to force in order to delay a clock. From testing with the grixis player - I am thinking it makes sense to force a t1 delver when we're on the play and we did not cantrip t1 so as to have daze mana. We just have so much time if they do not stick that initial threat, and we can draw into lands to blank dazes. Not sure about this however.

Congrats on the nice result!

Whether to FoW a clock or not is usually very difficult to assess correctly. In pre-board games I generally assume they have FoW+Daze to disrupt me, so if they start off with turn 1 Delver and I have an early daze-proof Show and Tell backed up by FoW, I'm obviously letting the Delver resolve.
If my hand is rather cantrip-heavy / slow or contains multiple enablers, it's often the right play to counter the early clock.

Post-board it's a different story, since they often board out some copies of creatures like Goyf (RUG and BUG), True-Name Nemesis (Grixis and BUG) or Nimble Mongoose (RUG), while we have removal/bounce to delay their clock. They also load up on hard-counters, requiring us to have maximum counter-backup for the combo-turn.
Still, there definitely are post-board scenarios where it's the correct play to FoW a threat, but it's impossible to give proper general advice on when to do that; it always depends on the situation.

[neverhasit]

What do you guys think about running 2x fire ice, 3x preordain, 4x spell pierce in the maindeck flex slots if I am expecting a lot of eldrazi, grixis and bug delver, loam, and d & t? Maybe 2x fire ice, 1x izzet charm, 3x preordain, 3x spell pierce instead?

The plan with fire ice vs. delver is to either draw a daze or force to clear the way for our business, or stop their clock in its tracks. Mountain + sol land has the nice property of blanking daze as well, so in a reasonably foreseeable nut upside scenario they have to force to stop you from doing something silly like nabbing yp and an unflipped delver. It also makes us even more oppressive against aggro loam and other gsz decks by giving us a way to clear teeg g1 when we only draw sneak, and d&t applications are pretty obvious.

Also thinking about 2 izzet charm since it is more live vs. random combo decks and miracles while still giving us interaction with delver, drs, and thalia.

[wolfstorm]

I would recommend trying out 2 omniscience in the main deck, they worked really well in Houston , in testing, and at weekly tournaments.

It makes show and tell and emrakul a stronger option and is great vs Karakas, endbringer, maze, Jace and removal on griselbrand.. It's also a nice feeling to be able to free cast anything in your library.

[Darksteel]

I would recommend trying out 2 omniscience in the main deck, they worked really well in Houston , in testing, and at weekly tournaments.

It makes show and tell and emrakul a stronger option and is great vs Karakas, endbringer, maze, Jace and removal on griselbrand.. It's also a nice feeling to be able to free cast anything in your library.

What did you cut for it? Probes and/or Preordain?

[Tokugawa]

Eldrazi is promoted to DTB, today.

Shave several(1-3) 1cmc spell, and add some...2cmc?

[grim confident]

Eldrazi is promoted to DTB, today.

Shave several(1-3) 1cmc spell, and add some...2cmc?

I think sneak and show is easier to win eldrazi deck than MUD or stax（cotv decks):laugh:

[Tokugawa]

I think sneak and show is easier to win eldrazi deck than MUD or stax（cotv decks):laugh:

Not easy when they splash W for Karakas and Eldrazi displacer.

Only good news for SnT players is: Eldrazi players are still arguing and arguing which configuration is the best.

[grim confident]

Not easy when they splash W for Karakas and Eldrazi displacer.

Only good news for SnT players is: Eldrazi players are still arguing and arguing which configuration is the best.

I need study more card.:wink::wink::wink:

[Daniel89]

Hello,

long time reader, first time writer.

I have seen some lists with Monastery Mentor (and Cavern of Souls) in SB. Example: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/602229

What do you think about this?

Regards,
Daniel

[JPA]

What do you think about this?


Goblin Rabblemaster does the same and you don't even have to butcher the manabase to play him. :wink:

[wolfstorm]

What did you cut for it? Probes and/or Preordain?

The two slots in my deck that would normally been a mix of either Preordain, Intuition or Misdirection. My list is on the last page if you want to see it.

[HeartNana]

Hey guys :smile:
What do you think about 1 pithing Needle in the Sideboard of Sneak Show against decks like miracle, shards (liliana, jace), Eldrazi (Endbringer, Displacer), and random stuff ???

At the moment I´m thinking about running 1 Fire/Ice & 1 Izzet Charm in the Maindeck as good allround tools :tongue::cool:

greetings Elmar ;)

[Mantis29]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the forum yet I've been lurking here for tips and tricks for a while now. I've been play testing with a few friends in preparation for GP Columbus and usually doing fairly well (with the exception of Death and Taxes which is just awful).

My list is pretty stock with the flex slots being 2x Spell Pierce, 3x Preordain, 3x Gitaxian Probe, and 1x Flusterstorm. I'm debating trying the 2 Omniscience build as well to see how I like that (cutting 1 probe and 1 preordain).

I'm still in the midst of completing my sideboard currently. I always feel like I'm diluting the combo when sideboarding (potentially overboarding) and I'm also never sure what to take out. My sideboard will ideally end up also being pretty stock until I do more playtesting. I was wondering if someone happened to have a more up to date guide to sideboarding. And also, is it worthwhile to pack more hate for DnT via Sulfur Elemental?

Thanks in advance

[Tokugawa]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the forum yet I've been lurking here for tips and tricks for a while now. I've been play testing with a few friends in preparation for GP Columbus and usually doing fairly well (with the exception of Death and Taxes which is just awful).

My list is pretty stock with the flex slots being 2x Spell Pierce, 3x Preordain, 3x Gitaxian Probe, and 1x Flusterstorm. I'm debating trying the 2 Omniscience build as well to see how I like that (cutting 1 probe and 1 preordain).

I'm still in the midst of completing my sideboard currently. I always feel like I'm diluting the combo when sideboarding (potentially overboarding) and I'm also never sure what to take out. My sideboard will ideally end up also being pretty stock until I do more playtesting. I was wondering if someone happened to have a more up to date guide to sideboarding. And also, is it worthwhile to pack more hate for DnT via Sulfur Elemental?

Thanks in advance

JPA listed some sideboarding tips about 8 pages before.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show&p=919456&viewfull=1#post919456
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show&p=919105&viewfull=1#post919105

Your "flex 9 slots" are all 1CMC spells. That may suffer a very painful Chalice deck matchup.

[wolfstorm]

Hey guys :smile:
What do you think about 1 pithing Needle in the Sideboard of Sneak Show against decks like miracle, shards (liliana, jace), Eldrazi (Endbringer, Displacer), and random stuff ???

At the moment I´m thinking about running 1 Fire/Ice & 1 Izzet Charm in the Maindeck as good allround tools :tongue::cool:

greetings Elmar ;)

it's great against Karakas and rishadan port, I would recommend at least 1, I've been thinking of upping to 2 in my sb.

[Tokugawa]

it's great against Karakas and rishadan port, I would recommend at least 1, I've been thinking of upping to 2 in my sb.

IMO Fire//Ice is better than Izzet Charm.

Only thing that Izzet Charm could provide while Fire//Ice not, is "Spell pierce", but we already have 3+ Spell pierce. UR cannot be paid by sol-lands is also a possible problem.

[wolfstorm]

IMO Fire//Ice is better than Izzet Charm.

Only thing that Izzet Charm could provide while Fire//Ice not, is "Spell pierce", but we already have 3+ Spell pierce. UR cannot be paid by sol-lands is also a possible problem.

Sorry, I should of been more specific, I was commenting about the pithing needle, not izzet / fire ice.

[HeartNana]

thx guys for the fast answers :)

But don't forget that you can loot with izzet charm and sometimes this effect could be the best, if you are searching for one combo piece if it's creature oder the other part.

On Saturday I have a legacytournament in my city and our meta is very overloaded with grixis delver, shardless bug,eldrazi, burn,miracle,lands,sneak show and ant. The rest is random stuff :p

So I came to this list:
Main(60):
4 Emrakul,the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Fire/Ice
1 Izzet Charm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
Sb(15):
2 Defense Grid
2 Blood Moon
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Through The Breach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wipe Away

I also made sideboard plans for this list against 35 decks. If somebody has an interest on them let me know.

Greetz :)

[Tokugawa]

thx guys for the fast answers :)

But don't forget that you can loot with izzet charm and sometimes this effect could be the best, if you are searching for one combo piece if it's creature oder the other part.

On Saturday I have a legacytournament in my city and our meta is very overloaded with grixis delver, shardless bug,eldrazi, burn,miracle,lands,sneak show and ant. The rest is random stuff :p

So I came to this list:
Main(60):
4 Emrakul,the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Fire/Ice
1 Izzet Charm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
Sb(15):
2 Defense Grid
2 Blood Moon
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Through The Breach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wipe Away

I also made sideboard plans for this list against 35 decks. If somebody has an interest on them let me know.

Greetz :)
Defense Grid is not belong to 2016 metagame. Cut them plz.

[HeartNana]

Defense Grid is not belong to 2016 metagame. Cut them plz.

Why should i cut one of the best sb cards I can play in a deck like sneak show ?
But it depends on the meta. In a meta with no blue decks or few counterdecks you have to cut grid.
I am not a fan of boseju. Because atm each good blue deck instead of miracle are runnig wasteland :(

[chuckado]

Is the abundance of miracles what is stopping this deck from being closer to a tier 1 deck or are there other factors and how do we fight these other decks?

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[Tokugawa]

Why should i cut one of the best sb cards I can play in a deck like sneak show ?
But it depends on the meta. In a meta with no blue decks or few counterdecks you have to cut grid.
I am not a fan of boseju. Because atm each good blue deck instead of miracle are runnig wasteland :(

RUG delver has fallen out of the radar now, Grixis and BUG delver are most popular tempo decks. They use discards against combo, and defense grid only hurts yourself.

Most parts of shardless BUG already work at sorcery speed.

Miracle also does not care about defense grid.

[HeartNana]

RUG delver has fallen out of the radar now, Grixis and BUG delver are most popular tempo decks. They use discards against combo, and defense grid only hurts yourself.

Most parts of shardless BUG already work at sorcery speed.

Miracle also does not care about defense grid.


Hey ;)
I absolutely agree with your statements about Defense Grid. RUG is atm unplayable I think.
With Grixis Delver oder Grixis Pyromancer (Noah Walker) Build the only discard is cabal therapy, the rest are counter backup so in my opionion against this Mu Defense Grid is very great.
Against BUG delver it depends on the list your opponent is playing. It gives the list with stifle & pierce with you need Defense Grid, against the version with Thoughtseize & Hymn you obvious don`t want to bring in defense grid, so it will be better for your opponent then for us haha :P
Against a deck like Shardless Bug I would never ever board in Defense Grid, because they only have 4 force and maybe 2 fluster the rest is fucking discard and other ugly stuff like needle or liliana of the Veil and so on :(

For me Defense Grid ist unbelievable strong against Miracle Decks.
If it resolves you win in 80% of the games.
But against Miracle boseju can be absolutely finisher i guess ;)

In the other Mu like bug delver, grixis delver i don´t like boseju. But it depends on the individual play style of the player himself.

But in if you a have meta in a few months where eldrazi is overloaded & miracle, which is not the fact atm in my city i would bring in 1 Needle more and 1 boseju.

greetings ;)

[chuckado]

thx guys for the fast answers :)

But don't forget that you can loot with izzet charm and sometimes this effect could be the best, if you are searching for one combo piece if it's creature oder the other part.

On Saturday I have a legacytournament in my city and our meta is very overloaded with grixis delver, shardless bug,eldrazi, burn,miracle,lands,sneak show and ant. The rest is random stuff[emoji14]

So I came to this list:
Main(60):
4 Emrakul,the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Fire/Ice
1 Izzet Charm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
Sb(15):
2 Defense Grid
2 Blood Moon
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Through The Breach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wipe Away

I also made sideboard plans for this list against 35 decks. If somebody has an interest on them let me know.

Greetz :)
I sent you a pm

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Mantis29]

JPA listed some sideboarding tips about 8 pages before.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show&p=919456&viewfull=1#post919456
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show&p=919105&viewfull=1#post919105

Your "flex 9 slots" are all 1CMC spells. That may suffer a very painful Chalice deck matchup.

Thanks for the sideboard info, I must have missed it while skimming through the pages. In hind sight I'm not sure how though.

I gather that I'm a little soft to chalice with all of the 1cmc spells. I might switch one up to a fire//ice, but that still leaves me with an abundance of 1s. If you don't mind my asking, what do you use for the flex slots? It seems like everyone is pretty heavy on the 1cmc.

I've been testing 2 Omni's in the main but not sold on them quite yet. Definitely adds to certain matchups but mostly when I've used it, an emrakul would be just as efficient.

[Ellomdian]

Miracle also does not care about defense grid.

I don't know what version of Miracles you have been playing against with Grid, but I suspect you've been doing it wrong. Grid is insane against them - it's pretty much the only reason to keep them in the board at this point. An early grid lets you try to go off much sooner and with much less interaction that you would usually need. Snapcaster and Clique become damn near unplayable, and it's much more expensive to Brainstorm or even just spin top to try to draw Counterspells.

I have grids when I know half the room is going to be Miracles, and when they're not in my board, it's because they are not terribly effective against the rest of the room, not because Miracles 'Does not care.'


I am not a fan of boseju. Because atm each good blue deck instead of miracle are runnig wasteland :(

As with any utility land (ahem, Karakas...) if you are getting your Boseju wasted, it's your own fault. You should typically be trying to hold it until the turn you want to use it against any deck that represents Wastelands. You have so many good Waste-able lands in the deck, Boseju should be pretty safe as long as you aren't just running it out there Turn 2.


I gather that I'm a little soft to chalice with all of the 1cmc spells. I might switch one up to a fire//ice, but that still leaves me with an abundance of 1s. If you don't mind my asking, what do you use for the flex slots? It seems like everyone is pretty heavy on the 1cmc.

I've been testing 2 Omni's in the main but not sold on them quite yet. Definitely adds to certain matchups but mostly when I've used it, an emrakul would be just as efficient.

I hate Preordain. I am running Intuition instead, and will occasionally put Impulse in the slot if I am worried about a lot of Wastelands. I know people are fans of even more Random Counterspells, but I prefer to be trying to go off over trying to prevent someone else from doing stuff. The latter is hard and puts you on the wrong side of FoW card advantage. If you are really worried about Chalice, Daze is an awfully surprising answer in most match ups since you can typically afford the tempo loss against decks that are pushing for Chalice on 1.

Omniscience is a really weird card in that it is often functionally just another Emrakul, but it allows you to more effectively win against DnT-style hate and it has greater-than-marginal value in blue matchups. I think they are more valuable if your MD flex slots are proactive or draw-oriented, and less valuable when the flexes are reactive.

[Tokugawa]

Thanks for the sideboard info, I must have missed it while skimming through the pages. In hind sight I'm not sure how though.

I gather that I'm a little soft to chalice with all of the 1cmc spells. I might switch one up to a fire//ice, but that still leaves me with an abundance of 1s. If you don't mind my asking, what do you use for the flex slots? It seems like everyone is pretty heavy on the 1cmc.

I've been testing 2 Omni's in the main but not sold on them quite yet. Definitely adds to certain matchups but mostly when I've used it, an emrakul would be just as efficient.

I cut 1 of pierce/preordain/probe each, for 1fire//ice, 1misdrection and 1Jtms(well, he is not really effective vs eldrazis). Chalice is not pupular enough in my local meta, for bringing more "subpar" 2+CMC cards like Impulse.

[HeartNana]

[QUOTE=Ellomdian;939950]



As with any utility land (ahem, Karakas...) if you are getting your Boseju wasted, it's your own fault. You should typically be trying to hold it until the turn you want to use it against any deck that represents Wastelands. You have so many good Waste-able lands in the deck, Boseju should be pretty safe as long as you aren't just running it out there Turn 2.


I don't unterstand your point ?
The fact is that boseju always comes tapped so why can I be 100% safe that they cannot wasteland them.
As I said before everybody is free to play sneak show the way he wants to be. In my list i don't need boseju.
And after testing yesterday against shardless bug, bug delver, lands, 4c delver & eldrazi I wouldn't change anything atm.

Greetings :)

[Tokugawa]

Hello,

long time reader, first time writer.

I have seen some lists with Monastery Mentor (and Cavern of Souls) in SB. Example: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/602229

What do you think about this?

Regards,
Daniel

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11945&d=268385&f=LE

The same player just got Top2 again, in a 238 players event.

[Ragdoll]

@All sneak show pilots - has anyone tried the black splash maybe? I've recently read an article of Owen Turtenwald from 2013 involving black splash for thoughtseize main. I was wondering if anyone tried it maybe. Thx in advance :smile:

[Tokugawa]

@All sneak show pilots - has anyone tried the black splash maybe? I've recently read an article of Owen Turtenwald from 2013 involving black splash for thoughtseize main. I was wondering if anyone tried it maybe. Thx in advance :smile:

Don't own any copies of u-sea, and haven't play with or against such build. But if that build exists, the manabase would be extremely vulnerable.

[HeartNana]

@All sneak show pilots - has anyone tried the black splash maybe? I've recently read an article of Owen Turtenwald from 2013 involving black splash for thoughtseize main. I was wondering if anyone tried it maybe. Thx in advance :smile:


Hey Ragdoll ;)

I`ve tried the black splash I think a year before and it wasn´t worth to splash black.
It can make sense if you are on the mono blue omnishow deck, but in sneak show you want as much as cantrips as you can have & the rest is combo and counter back up.

greetz ;)

[Ragdoll]

Don't own any copies of u-sea, and haven't play with or against such build. But if that build exists, the manabase would be extremely vulnerable.

Manabase is here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owen-turtenwald-tuning-sneak-and-show/ It doesn't look that bad :tongue:




Hey Ragdoll ;)

I`ve tried the black splash I think a year before and it wasn´t worth to splash black.
It can make sense if you are on the mono blue omnishow deck, but in sneak show you want as much as cantrips as you can have & the rest is combo and counter back up.

greetz ;)

Yeah I'm using black in omnitell and I was wondering if the same thing would work in here. Just out of curiosity what were you playing with? I mean a full playset of thoughtseize? Some other numer? Or maybe additional black cards in side besides main thoughtseizes?

Anyway thx for your answers :)

[quadich]

hey guys,

long time lurker first time poster :D.
So i have been following this thread for a little while now ( though i have not read everything that was posted).
i have been wondering, also since the deck used to be a very solid tier 1 deck up to the point where death and taxes was created
with the sole purpose of beating this deck: shouldnt this deck, with regards to the decline in death and taxes decks and the decrease
in containment priest as a sideboard card, allow the deck to be a tier 1 deck again? Although i have played this deck a little at my LGS
i am still a novice at it.
Thus i would love to hear a master explain to me why this deck is not the feared beast it was before.

[HeartNana]

Manabase is here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owen-turtenwald-tuning-sneak-and-show/ It doesn't look that bad :tongue:




Yeah I'm using black in omnitell and I was wondering if the same thing would work in here. Just out of curiosity what were you playing with? I mean a full playset of thoughtseize? Some other numer? Or maybe additional black cards in side besides main thoughtseizes?

Anyway thx for your answers :)

I played 2 ts in the main and 2 in the sideboard. I didn`t run any other black cards in the sideboard.

[HeartNana]

hey guys,

long time lurker first time poster :D.
So i have been following this thread for a little while now ( though i have not read everything that was posted).
i have been wondering, also since the deck used to be a very solid tier 1 deck up to the point where death and taxes was created
with the sole purpose of beating this deck: shouldnt this deck, with regards to the decline in death and taxes decks and the decrease
in containment priest as a sideboard card, allow the deck to be a tier 1 deck again? Although i have played this deck a little at my LGS
i am still a novice at it.
Thus i would love to hear a master explain to me why this deck is not the feared beast it was before.

The problem with Sneak Show and being a Tier 1 deck is the fact you have so much very hard mu, then it was for 2-3 years.
1) Miracle is getting stronger and stronger with sideboard cards like wear/tear and containment priest and council judgement and so on, and also a very fast clock with mentor can sucks.
2) Death and Taxes is our lifetime nemesis, because white as sad as it is has access to the fucking best cards against us.
3) Shardless Bug for me was longtime the best MU preboard i can have after elves and something like that, but this deck can be also explosive with hymn and force backup, following by liliana. And the most of the lists are running more discard in the sideboard, flusterstorms and also some list meddling mage and needle and so on.
4) Eldrazi depends on the list, but against the uw version and the mono white version it`s almost unbeatable, you can sit and watch them kill you bro :(
5) The number of Bug Delver is also raising, which is also a very hard mu in my opinion. For a few months they were running the stifle and daze version but nowadays they switch to the heavy discard version paired with counters and fast clock than can also be very hard to beat.
6) Grixis Pyromancer, obvious the same as 5)
7) ANT and TES are also trying to beat faster as before because they want die too chalice, and this mu`s are also even very close.
8) The number of Reanimator Decks and also Tin Fins are raising and this is also a very bad mu for us :(
9) The Lands decks switch to discard in sb and a faster clock with could also be sometimes not so funny :(
10) All in all you can say the number of our good or best Matchups like elves, every Esper build, every fair deck are going fewer and fewer.

Hope that helps a little bit.

greetz Elmar ;)

[Svyelunite]

Newest episode of Legacy's Allure is posted! SCG's very own Chris VanMeter joins us to discuss the ins and outs of Legacy's most broken combo deck, Sneak and Show. Check it out!

Webcast: https://youtu.be/WigoU5ZPcdk
Podcast: https://archive.org/details/LegacysAllureChrisVanMeterAndSneakAndShow

[mistervader]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11945&d=268385&f=LE

The same player just got Top2 again, in a 238 players event.

This looks beautiful! Stupid question, though... what's the boarding plan with a deck like this? Who do you board the Mentors in against?

[JPA]

A pretty stock list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=101131) made Top 8 of the 200 player SCG Columbus Classic, going undefeated in the Swiss. Going up to 3 Blood Moon seems like a good call at the moment.

[cvk]

Hi,
Maybe I have overseen that in a previous post (my apologies, if so), but what is the general mulligan advise
assuming a pretty stock list?
Thank you!
Christian

P.S. Just wanted to say, that this is an extremely well-written primer and I appreciate that a lot!

[JPA]

what is the general mulligan advise

That's highly matchup- and play/draw-dependent. Against an unknown opponent you should try to keep a proactive hand that can combo off early. Don't keep hands without any combo-pieces, unless you have multiple cantrips.
If there are some keeps that you are unsure about, feel free to post them here.

[cvk]

Thanks for your reply!

If you have just a single blue land/fetch-land, then I guess the decision to keep the hand would also involve the number of cantrips you have in the hand:

Would you keep a hand with a single cantrip and a single blue (fetch) land on the play or on the draw, respectively? (provided, the rest of the hand looks good)


Also a completely different question:

Recently you played an Omni-Tell and Sneak and Show Hybrid: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/399023

How did you like it in comparison to a plain Sneak and Show? A little slower? More flexible? Less/more consistent?

Thank you!

Christian

[JPA]

Would you keep a hand with a single cantrip and a single blue (fetch) land on the play or on the draw, respectively? (provided, the rest of the hand looks good)


A hand with one cantrip, one land and five "good" cards (combo-pieces + permission) is a keep most of the time. It gets a little worse on the draw, as your cantrip gets exposed to discard spells.



How did you like it in comparison to a plain Sneak and Show? A little slower? More flexible? Less/more consistent?

Omnisneakshow is definitely a strong choice at the moment and capitalizes on the "rogue-factor". If you win via Omniscience in game 1, your opponent is extremely unlikely to bring in stuff like Needle, and might get surprised by Sneak Attack. Cunning Wish provides a lot of flexibility and the deck is very good in a meta full of Eldrazi and Miracles.
It's generally a little slower than Sneak&Show (needs more setup at times), but still faster than Omnishow (thanks to Lotus Petal and the higher possibility of a two-card combo kill).

[GoldenCid]

A pretty stock list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=101131) made Top 8 of the 200 player SCG Columbus Classic, going undefeated in the Swiss. Going up to 3 Blood Moon seems like a good call at the moment.

What does sudden shock eat?

[Ciubulu]

What does sudden shock eat?

deck's nemesis: containment priest

[dynamic_e]

Anyone try the transformational sideboard with Mentors? I've seen a few lists, between a 5-0 league on Modo and the Japanese lists. Seems like a great surprise transformation like the mentor plan in TinFins(which i've been having a blast with)

[GoldenCid]

deck's nemesis: containment priest
Sir, you have saved my life lol

[oracL3]

A hand with one cantrip, one land and five "good" cards (combo-pieces + permission) is a keep most of the time. It gets a little worse on the draw, as your cantrip gets exposed to discard spells.



Omnisneakshow is definitely a strong choice at the moment and capitalizes on the "rogue-factor". If you win via Omniscience in game 1, your opponent is extremely unlikely to bring in stuff like Needle, and might get surprised by Sneak Attack. Cunning Wish provides a lot of flexibility and the deck is very good in a meta full of Eldrazi and Miracles.
It's generally a little slower than Sneak&Show (needs more setup at times), but still faster than Omnishow (thanks to Lotus Petal and the higher possibility of a two-card combo kill).
Hi, i m testing the new version of this deck with Omniscience in it. I would like to know the use or cunning wish because it seems to me a dead card when i draw it. In the case i went of with Omniscience on the board, i can take firemnid in the sideboarding, but in early game or other situation ???? Ty[emoji1]

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[JPA]

I would like to know the use or cunning wish because it seems to me a dead card when i draw it.

You can get Through the Breach or Intuition, depending on which combo pieces you're missing. Cunning Wish is basically never dead, it can find Breach/Intuition to set up the combo, Flusterstorm/Pyroblast/Surgical Extraction as protection or disruption and bounce spells / removal to buy time or get rid of hateful permanents.

[Cetan]

Decklist:

20 Combo Package
4 Show and Tell
3 Sneak Attack
3 Omniscience
3 Emrakul
3 Gristlebrand
3 Cunning Wish
1 Split Decision

21 Mana
3 Island
1 Mountain
7 Fetchland
3 Volcanic
1 City of Traitor
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Lotus Petal

7 Disruption
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

12 Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Intuition

15
1 Flusterstorm
2 Teferi's Realm
1 Firemind's Forsite
1 Echoing Truth
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Intuition
1 Pyroblast
1 Sudden Shock
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Release The Ants
1 Eladarmi's Call
1 Boseiju
1 Jace Vryn's Prodigy

Goals:
Have an instant speed win condition
Be resilient to discard
Have a non-bounce answer to hate permanents
Be optimized to beat: Miracles, Death and Taxes, Infect, BUG/Grixis Delver, and Reanimator

Tournament report:
I’ve been playing show and tell decks for about a year now and for the last month I’ve been cycling through UW omni /w mentors, eurekatell, Grixis omni, UB omni, UR omni, monoblue omni, and Sneak and Show. I’ve done well with most of these decks locally but I felt that the list above (work in progress) is going to give me the most mileage against the decks I want to do well against at GP Columbus and what I predict the metagame will be like.

Round 1: Vs Tin Fin (the SCG Classic list /w transformational sideboard)
Game 1: I keep a hand with force of will and turn 2 cunning wish on the draw. When he went to shallow grave the gristlebrand I wish for a surgical, he goes to pact of negation and I force it. I am able to get sneak attack into play eventually and go for the win.
Board Plan: Out Intuition, In Echoing Truth and Flusterstorm
Game 2: Much the same, he rips my hand apart while I float a cunning wish with cantrips. He goes for it and I cunning wish for a surgical again to strip his gristlebrands. I re-assemble my combo and win a while later.
Round 2 (1-0) Vs RBG Goblins
Game 1: I am on the play. He gets out a turn 1 lackey, I turn 2 out gristlebrand with a show and tell, he puts in a matron to get the bounce goblin. He uses caves to cast it to bounce gristle brand, I draw 14, go to 3 after attacks and I was able to find the win in those 14 cards.
Out Intuition, 1 Force of Will, 1 Spell Pierce, in 2 Kozilek's Return, 1 Pyroclasm and, a sudden shock.
Game 2: He ends up mulling to 5. I end up having a quick win in hand and the game ends without conflict.
Round 3 (2-0) Vs ANT
Game 1, I keep a hand with force of will and turn 3 Emrakul on the play. On turn 2 he rips the force from my hand, and sees the coast if clear, I show and tell Emrakul into play the following turn and he kills me on turn 3.
Board: + Flusterstorm, - intuition.
Game 2, I keep a 2 lander with show and tell, Emrakul, ponder, force, and some other blue junk. I ponder into a sol-land and a show and tell. He duresses the show and tell out of my hand and I draw another from the ponder, turn 2 Emrakul and he scoops.
Game 3, He goes for it on a turn 3 win after seeing I don’t have a force of will in my hand. I had a brainstorm and was floating a force of will on my library, counter his infernal tutor after he discards his hand and then kill him a few turns later.
Round 4 (3-0) Vs Big Red.
Game 1 I keep a solid hand with 2 force of wills, a basic island, some cantrips. I’m on the play and go island cantrip. He responds with turn 1 blood moon. It takes about 6 turns to get to 3 lands to kill him but he tries to win twice in that period and I was able to force both of his sneak attacks.
Board: I board out intuitions, a cunning wish and 2 ponders. I board in 2 Teferri’s Realm, an echoing truth, a flusterstorm, and Jace.
Game 2 We both mull to 6, he keeps a turn one combo kill, I had the force of will which I mulled to. That was basically the game.

Thoughts:
I wasn’t really worried about any of the matchups I ended up playing, combo / agro matchups feel great for the deck; however, I’m not sure if my sideboard will sufficiently stand up to harder matchups.

[Daniel89]

This looks beautiful! Stupid question, though... what's the boarding plan with a deck like this? Who do you board the Mentors in against?

I'm curious too, where the strengths and weaknesses of this build are. possibly it's boarded it when the enemy boards the removal out?

edit: missed "the removal"

[Dutch253]

Hey everyone. I wanted to get some opinions on something. I currently have Reanimator built and am considering selling off the deck to buy into Sneak and Show. From what I can tell Sneak and Show is just a better, more consistent combo deck than Reanimator isn't it?


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[RhoxWarMonk]

Hey everyone. I wanted to get some opinions on something. I currently have Reanimator built and am considering selling off the deck to buy into Sneak and Show. From what I can tell Sneak and Show is just a better, more consistent combo deck than Reanimator isn't it?


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My best advice for anyone asking a similar question is to proxy up a stock list and do a little playtesting with it to see if you like the deck. The deck is great and I personally really like it but it's possibly not a deck everyone will love, and it does have it's problem matchups like any legacy deck (DnT for example, tends to be pretty tough).

Reanimator is a very strong deck as well but obviously loses some of it's consistency post board after most players bring in their graveyard hate, which is why I expect you're considering changing decks. If you are looking to stay within the combo archetype, I personally feel Sneak and Show is the better positioned combo deck at the moment. Storm has a truly brutal matchup against Eldrazi, which has seen a nice bit of play lately... but if you're not fixated into combo, proxy up a couple of the top decks you're interested in and see which one suits your playstyle more. Even just goldfishing out some games can give you a feel / idea if nothing else but kitchen table games for an evening should give you a good indication if you want to invest into a particular deck or not. Good luck!

[chuckado]

Does anyone know of a streamer who plays sneak and show regularly on mtgo?

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[ironclad8690]

I think BrettWJayne plays a fair amount of Sneak and Show, but not exclusively.

[chuckado]

Hello all, I was wondering if you guys think the lists with the mentor in the board would be valid for gp Columbus or should I go with more of a stock list?

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[ironclad8690]

I have been playing this:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/422687#online

which I basically just copied off of JPA's post a page or two back about a stock list which did well at an SCG (it also happens to be close to Niels Noorlander's MOCS build).

Can't really decide between Preordain or Probe, I have tried lists with 4 of one or the other but the 2-2 split somehow feels best.

As far as Mentor in the board, seems good for a GP, but doesn't it complicate boarding somewhat? I am down for transitional sideboards because most people never play against them and legacy is almost entirely muscle-memory and familiar situations format, but I am not sure if the expense is worth it. I love the stock list because it is fairly intuitive to sideboard with, but I think OmniSneak or Mentorboard are also worth exploring. I was meaning to once I got my chops up with stock list.

[Cetan]

@ JPA,
I'm not sure how closely monitor these forums but I have a few deck construction questions for you!

1: In your main, why aren't you playing a splitdecision / (twin cast on moto) over impulse? This would let you remove trickbind and probably even through the breach from your sideboard as it guarantees an instant speed win with omni and a wish.

2: What matchups do you find the blood moons helpful in?

3: Why do you have wipe away as a wish target over echoing truth, rushing river, or cryptic command (Why do you feel that the split second is worth the added difficulty of casting it)

[iostream]

What are people's opinions of the OmniTell + Sneak/Show mashup that has been floating around MTGO lately, e.g. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12529&d=272223

I am intrigued by how it seems to patch up the deck's traditional weaknesses, although I have no idea if it does this at an unacceptable cost to consistency.

[ironclad8690]

@ JPA,
I'm not sure how closely monitor these forums but I have a few deck construction questions for you!

1: In your main, why aren't you playing a splitdecision / (twin cast on moto) over impulse? This would let you remove trickbind and probably even through the breach from your sideboard as it guarantees an instant speed win with omni and a wish.

2: What matchups do you find the blood moons helpful in?

3: Why do you have wipe away as a wish target over echoing truth, rushing river, or cryptic command (Why do you feel that the split second is worth the added difficulty of casting it)

I can take a crack at the reasoning behind 2 & 3.

2) Blood Moons have helped me vs:

Legend Miracles
Eldrazi
Lands
Deathblade
Shardless BUG
BUG Delver
Bant Stoneblade
Jund
4c Aggro Loam
Infect
Dark Depths decks
Deadguy Ale
Death and Taxes
Maverick
12 Post
Junk
Dega/Team Italia/Mardu
Zombardment

Note that in many of these cases the pilots were careless with their fetchlands, or perhaps didn't have the option of fetching a basic. Some of these are probably arguably better not to board in blood moon, but I just started playing the card and will admit I probably overboard it (still very high on it).

3) I am guessing the main reason for Wipe Away is that it gets around Counterbalance (usually). It does hurt when your opponent taxes you, like with Thalia/Thorn of Amethyst, but unable to be countered is really good on that type of effect.

[JPA]

I have a few deck construction questions for you!


ironclad8690 already answered questions 2 and 3. Concerning question 1: Impulse is a pretty good cantrip, while Split Decision usually doesn't do anything outside of your combo turn. And for what it's worth, there hasn't been one situation yet where I lost a game after casting Firemind's Foresight for Wish/Impulse/BS.


What are people's opinions of the OmniTell + Sneak/Show mashup

You can find my reasoning for playing a hybrid on the past pages of this thread.

[ironclad8690]

Add Aluren to the list of decks I have hosed with Blood Moon.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/85mHJYIs__p80RQxXMMkUafjy2nngqVZbTVUmHsoWif5pOfeh-3_LetG2eoupw69QZ2PojmOMaWelZ4k_7HkJC7P9LeEUAAIdWBkVPf5sE0ebBGA1dhgLxpuBoaUuNPo9e5wjHc

[Cetan]

I think my current board is going to end up as something like

1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Intuition
1 Release the Ants

1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sudden Shock
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pyroblast
1 Through the Breach

1 Boseiju who shelters all
2 Blood Moon (maybe)
2 Teferi's Realm

The struggle I'm having with blood moon is I'm not sure if I want to use it to sure up my matchup against tempo or miracles rather than just having the general hoser that is blood moon.

[chuckado]

For those interested Paul cheon has been streaming quite a bit of sneak and show

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[ironclad8690]

Do you guys ever hit a point where you just can't win no matter what?

I have lost to a variety of our best matchups over the last 3 days, I am not sure what the problem is. I am now only 50% win in my matches. I was winning a whole lot, and then I became bad, I have lost to Merfolk, 4c Loam, Shardless BUG, Patriot, Eldrazi, Miracles, and even BURN. Yes, BURN. I am on life tilt, please help me.

[AsmodeusDM]

Considering playing the OmniSneakTell variant at the GP this weekend.

I played monoblue omnitell a ton when DTT was legal and did quite well; have never played with the Sneak Attack.


One item I noticed is that the lists keep the combo kill in the board but do not include Eladamari's call in the s/b (which was std for monoblue). Is this because with 6-8 "big" spells in the deck (omni, grisel, ema) you just feel you are likely to have it in hand when you go to bstorm and release FTW?

Also; to the point of Impulse over Split decision I will say that when DTT was legal I played both at times and they had a lot of pros and cons. Being able to Wish for FMF and get bstorm,split,wish then copy the wish to get both a eladmari (to get ema) and release (for the win) was actually quite nice...

However, if you aren't playing Eladamari's call in the s/b I dont' see the value too much of having the split decision. Additionally with no DTT you need ever way to dig possible and being able to dig down 4 is probably worth the consistency points.

[JPA]

One item I noticed is that the lists keep the combo kill in the board but do not include Eladamari's call in the s/b

Eladamri's call is unnecessary, because we have Intuition (and 3-ofs of each creature).

[RhoxWarMonk]

Looks like the Sneak and Omni brew topped 8 this weekend at GP Prague. Does anyone have experience with the cunning wish plan? What do you normally get with Firemind's Foresight after you wish (which I assume you only do once Omni is in play). Also, do you ever side in anything besides blood moon, ie leaving everything in the board so they can be targeted by Cunning Wish?

My current list is more of the traditional Sneak and Show deck, but I can get the rest of the cards for the cunning wish variant relatively easy, so I'm strongly considering taking the plunge but I'm worried I'm not going to have any idea how to play it :) It looks a lot different with the wish board, rather than the traditional S&S decklist.

[genuine fugazi]

Looks like the Sneak and Omni brew topped 8 this weekend at GP Prague. Does anyone have experience with the cunning wish plan? What do you normally get with Firemind's Foresight after you wish (which I assume you only do once Omni is in play)

Brainstorm, Impulse, Cunning Wish. Then you use Impulse to find a spell that costs more than anything in your opponent's deck (e.g. Emrakul), use Brainstorm to put it on top of your library and then Wish for Release the Ants. You would do that if you need to win at an instant speed.

[CovenantElite30]

Brainstorm, Impulse, Cunning Wish. Then you use Impulse to find a spell that costs more than anything in your opponent's deck (e.g. Emrakul), use Brainstorm to put it on top of your library and then Wish for Release the Ants. You would do that if you need to win at an instant speed.
I'm considering building the omni build of this deck for fnm. Reason I haven't built Sneak and Show because my local meta is loaded with D&T players. Anyone with experience playing this new Omni version, can you say whether or not this version has a more favorable matchup against D&T?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

[genuine fugazi]

It's definitely better vs D&T. Omniscience doesn't care about Containment Priest and gives you an out to Karakas + Revoker. You also have more instants to play when they Port you, including a sweeper if you have one in your SB.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Brainstorm, Impulse, Cunning Wish. Then you use Impulse to find a spell that costs more than anything in your opponent's deck (e.g. Emrakul), use Brainstorm to put it on top of your library and then Wish for Release the Ants. You would do that if you need to win at an instant speed.

Thanks for the reply, I assume if you don't have your inpulse in the library you can just omit that selection?

Also, I assume there's generally not much issue of whiffing when you are at that stage and not finding an Emrakul or Griselbrand?

I just bought the cards I was missing for the wish board, going to give that a try this week :) Also happy to know it has better game against D&T, that deck is currently my nemesis.... :mad:

[genuine fugazi]

As JPA said, if you're not in a situation where you absolutely must win at instant speed, you can just grab Intuition and find whichever creature you prefer.

[JPA]

Went a disappointing 9-6 at GP Prague, after finishing day 1 at 8-1. Couldn't do anything on day 2, cantrips into cantrips into nothing, very bad luck overall.

Friday Trial

2-0 Miracles
2-0 Aggro Loam
2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 Miracles
2-0 Infect

Saturday Day 1

Bye
Bye
2-0 Elves
2-0 Jund
2-1 Shardless BUG
1-2 Shardless BUG
2-0 Shardless BUG
2-1 Elves
2-1 Eldrazi

Sunday Day 2

1-2 Miracles
0-2 Deathblade
0-2 Miracles
2-0 Death and Taxes
1-2 Eldrazi
0-2 Shardless BUG

I played my Omnisneakshow list. You can find it at the bottom of this article. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/deck-tech-sneak-and-omni-show-jonathan-anghelescu-2016-06-11)

Even though the deck failed me, another player made Top 8 with 74/75 my list, which confirms my opinion that it's very well-positioned in the current metagame. Still, I'll probably take a break from S&T-strategies, feel a little burned out.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Tough luck on day 2 JPA but the deck certainly feels well positioned at the moment.

Anything in the 75 you'd change?

[JPA]

Anything in the 75 you'd change?

Maybe add a second Boseiju to the sideboard. You always want to have it against Miracles, and as a 1-of you find it a little too irregularly.

[Daniel89]

I'm also interested in this hybrid build (does it have a proper name yet?), may I ask what you would cut for the second bosejiu?

Thanks!

[JPA]

does it have a proper name yet?

Omnisneakshow? Sneak and Omni Show?


may I ask what you would cut for the second bosejiu?

The third Blood Moon, most likely.

[RhoxWarMonk]

I've been calling it Sneak and Omni Show personally :)

I was wondering the same thing, thanks JPA! I will try a second Bosejiu over the 3rd blood moon as well.

I assume you wouldn't make any changes to the instants? Are you running a pyroclasm in your build? I saw it somewhere but the fact it's a sorcery really turns me off it :confused:

[JPA]

Are you running a pyroclasm in your build? I saw it somewhere but the fact it's a sorcery really turns me off it :confused:

Not sure if that's a serious question. :laugh: Firstly, I posted my hybrid list many times in this thread and can't find a Pyroclasm in any of them. Secondly, Kozilek's Return fills the role of Pyroclasm in a Cunning Wish - build.

[AnvilOfCrom]

As of late, i'm thinking a lot about the transformational sideboard with monastery mentor and giving it a try in a local tourney.

Since i don't play Legacy that often, against which decks do you bring it in? shardless? dnt? grixis delver?

[LRats]

I'm switching over to the hybrid list from Omnitell, personally I like the name Omnitack for the deck.

Now for a question about the deck, what is the opinion on Leyline of Sanctity? Is it just too clunky, is there not enough room in the sideboard? How bad is the match-ups against heavy discard decks?

[RhoxWarMonk]

Not sure if that's a serious question. :laugh: Firstly, I posted my hybrid list many times in this thread and can't find a Pyroclasm in any of them. Secondly, Kozilek's Return fills the role of Pyroclasm in a Cunning Wish - build.

I obviously got the top 8 GP Prague list mixed up with yours (pretty easy to do)... so yes, it was a serious question and yes, some people obviously do run it out of the wish board, I just don't understand why. :) I was wondering if you found it useful as an actual "board in card" for decks like DnT and Elves but since it's not in your lists, it's a moot point lol. Kozilek's return just seems so much better (obviously you agree :laugh:).

[nodahero]

Piloted JPAs list to a 4th place finish at a local event with 30 some people.

The only change to the list was adding the 2nd Boseiju over the 3rd Blood Moon in the board.

The deck felt and performed AMAZING.

My 2 losses came from Miracles in the swiss (where I punted an easy win) and to Reanimator in the eleimation rounds.

Can any give suggestions how to board the Cunning Wish builds? Generally I just cut Preordain for either the Boseiju or the Blood Moon depending on the match.

I did wonder if I should board in additonal cards to the main for weaker options and basically make Cunning Wish hit Surgical agaisnt reanimator, but board in REB and Flusterstorm for game 2 and 3- Is some variation of thing thinking correct, or don't board in Wish targets?

[JPA]

Piloted JPAs list to a 4th place finish at a local event with 30 some people.

The only change to the list was adding the 2nd Boseiju over the 3rd Blood Moon in the board.

The deck felt and performed AMAZING.

Congrats, I'm glad the deck performed well for you.



Can any give suggestions how to board the Cunning Wish builds? Generally I just cut Preordain for either the Boseiju or the Blood Moon depending on the match.

I did wonder if I should board in additonal cards to the main for weaker options and basically make Cunning Wish hit Surgical agaisnt reanimator, but board in REB and Flusterstorm for game 2 and 3- Is some variation of thing thinking correct, or don't board in Wish targets?

Your approach is quite similar to mine, even though Intuition gets boarded out over Preordain in most matchups, hedging against Surgical Extraction. Reanimator and Storm are decks where Cunning Wish into REB/Flusterstorm is often too slow, while Cunning Wish into Surgical Extraction is fast enough that you want to have access to 3 Surgical Extractions instead of 1.
Against Miracles, another example, you want to leave REB in the sideboard to have the option of Cunning Wishing EOT for the combo turn or for countering Jace/Counterbalance/Clique. With my MOCS list, I actually only boarded 1 Flusterstorm 1 Boseiju for 1 Intuition 1 City of Traitors against Miracles (would be 2 Boseiju for 2 City with the double Boseiju sideboard).

[DNSolver]

Last summer, (last time I played Sneak and Show a lot) I was boarding out the basic mountain against any deck that didn't have Wasteland. Is this still common practice or is it better to board out the City of Traitors instead, as described above by JPA?

[JPA]

Last summer, (last time I played Sneak and Show a lot) I was boarding out the basic mountain against any deck that didn't have Wasteland. Is this still common practice or is it better to board out the City of Traitors instead, as described above by JPA?

I don't board out the Mountain with the hybrid build in any matchup, but that's more because of the general configuration than it not being viable. With regular Sneak and Show, boarding out the Mountain against Combo decks is very common practice.

I might start writing a primer / new thread for the hybrid, to avoid further confusion in discussion of traditional Sneak and Show and Omnisneak. The decks definitely have significant differences, but still I'm not sure the hybrid requires its own thread. Maybe it's just a natural evolution or a different build of Sneak and Show and doesn't even need a new name. What do you guys think?

[nodahero]

@JPA: It has been a while since I actively played and Sneak and Show variants, however your list felt exactly like the old variants in play style. Personally I feel like it is merely a variant of the origianl. I was one of the first ones moving towards a "more controlling" Sneak and Show list by playing Tops years ago to some decent finishes at SCG opens with a couple of Top 16s.

At the moment I am more interested in the value of playing the red cards instead of playing a more standard OmniTell deck. More often than not I was able to play a better game with Omnicience then by getting Emrakul or Griselbrand into play; both dudes were very powerful, however I never came close to fizzeling with an Omniscience in play due to lines like S&T into Omni where my opponent put in Ashen Rider-with any other threat I was dead- due to Omniscience though I simply Cunning Wished into FF into Cunning, Impulse, and Brainstorm then Wished for Trickbind and blew him out.

[Tokugawa]

Omnisneakshow? Sneak and Omni Show?



The third Blood Moon, most likely.
How about somthing like..."Omni Attack"? 2-words phrase is usually easier to pronounce/remember, than 3-4 words phrases, or long compounds.

[LRats]

How about somthing like..."Omni Attack"? 2-words phrase is usually easier to pronounce/remember, than 3-4 words phrases, or long compounds.

Personally I like Omnitack.

[Technics]

How about somthing like..."Omni Attack"? 2-words phrase is usually easier to pronounce/remember, than 3-4 words phrases, or long compounds.

I have been using OmniAttack for quite a while now. Since I went to a similar list back in Feb.

[Daniel89]

I don't board out the Mountain with the hybrid build in any matchup, but that's more because of the general configuration than it not being viable. With regular Sneak and Show, boarding out the Mountain against Combo decks is very common practice.

I might start writing a primer / new thread for the hybrid, to avoid further confusion in discussion of traditional Sneak and Show and Omnisneak. The decks definitely have significant differences, but still I'm not sure the hybrid requires its own thread. Maybe it's just a natural evolution or a different build of Sneak and Show and doesn't even need a new name. What do you guys think?

I think a different thread (possibly a primer) would be suitable for this type of deck. Even if the Sneak and Show Plan is our primary plan, the Wishboard with the Release the Ants alternative WinCon changed the deck drastically in my opinion.

[wasabizod]

I feel like you could update the original primer to include this kind of variant and then expand on that with some thoughts here (and a link to it).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JPA]

I feel like you could update the original primer to include this kind of variant and then expand on that with some thoughts here (and a link to it).


Yeah, that seems like the best option. I don't know when I will do it, but when I update the primer, I will include the hybrid build in there.

[Daniel89]

Yeah, that seems like the best option. I don't know when I will do it, but when I update the primer, I will include the hybrid build in there.

I think the build with mentor and nahiri should be mentioned too.

I have one question: I'm thinking about the trickbind in your sideboard: For what situations is it in there?

Due to my move (because of a new job) I wasn't able to play much in the past months, but I'll try the hybrid build at the next occasions to play.

[nodahero]

Trickbind is intended for fighting through things like Flusterstorm and Tendrils- additonally, you can use it to get past things like Griselbrand's draw 7 and my personal favorite to stifle that black/white dud who exiles things when he comes in.

[wolfstorm]

IMO Sneak and show with Omni doesn't require its own primer and can be a subsection.. Though I do agree running a few Omniscience is sick.

[demonlord340]

Not quite a tournament report because I didn’t take notes, but highlights and what I can remember.

2nd place at a 26 person SCG IQ playing Sneak and Show.

List:
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Force of Will
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Griselbrand
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Spell Pierce
Sideboard:
3 Blood Moon
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Shock
2 Through the Breach
1 Wipe Away
1 Kozilek’s Return
1 Boseiju

R 1 vs Dredge (W) 2-1
Game one his dredges did nothing, game 2 he killed me on his second turn on a mull to 5. I could have kept up spell pierce, but didn’t and dread return on a flame kin zealot did me in. Game 3 I mulled to 4, but preordained into a Grafdigger’s cage that got me plenty of time to eventually kill him. In one of the games I won I ended up casting Kozilek’s Return to kill all of his zombie tokens which was wonderful.

R 2 vs Miracles (L) 0-2
Got stomped both games by a turn three Monastery Mentor. Game 1 I cast three show and tells, resolving two of them to put Emrakul into play, but he topdecked into a venser and then a Jace to bounce on his turn.

R 3 vs Burn (W) 2-1
Game two used Sneak Attack on a Griselbrand defensively to block a Monastery Swiftspear. The Griselbrand ended up dying, but the cards and lifegain ended it quickly. I lost game 1, but never cast a spell other than ponder, brainstorm, or preordain and my opponent told me that he put me on UR delver and boarded accordingly.

R 4 vs Phyrexian Unlife Storm? (W) 2-0
I think this deck was based on the modern deck; game one he cast Pact of Negation on my Show and Tell. On his upkeep he had three mana(1 B 2 U). He cast Dark Ritual which I Spell Pierced and that was that. Game 2 he mulled and never did anything and I had a solid hand.

R 5 DRAW

Top 8

Quarters vs Miracles W (2-1)
Played the same guy as before. This time I drew Boseiju which let me Show and Tell in Sneak Attack game 2 for the win. Game three I resolved a turn 2 Show and Tell with FoW and Pyroblast backup. He had two fetches as his only lands in play and ended up putting in a Blood Moon off of the Show and Tell without cracking them. He had a terminus on top that he couldn’t cast, but I’m not sure that he could have fought through my countermagic.

Semis vs Jund W (2-1)

Jace was an all star. At some point I Emrakuled him leaving him with a Bloodbraid that was beating me down. Topdecked the Jace to bounce Bloodbraid(no lands to recast) and then find me the win.

Finals vs Miracles L (1-2)
I won game one when I turn 1 Show and Telled into a Griselbrand only for him to drop Karakas. I picked up Grisel without drawing 7( was tired), but still won with Sneak Attack after a bunch of turns. Bad play gets rewarded every time.

Game two I had Show and Tell and Emrakul plus a Force and blue card. I knew he had a Force, Brainstorm, a non blue card(I think surgical), and one card he had drawn which I didn’t know about. I cast Show and Tell, he brainstormed in response. I let it resolve, but he ended up hitting another blue card and force of will :/. Game three he has all the hate(pithing needle and ensaring bridge and karakas) and eventually gets me under a counterbalance top lock. Cest la vie.

Jace was insane(he did something good in my burn matchup, but I don’t remember what). I definitely wish I had cut one Blood Moon for a second Boseiju in the board. Wondering if I should be boarding in Kozilek’s Return against Mentor Miracles; I didn’t the first time I played the Mentor Miracles player, but did the second time(never drew it).

[stnikolauswagne]

So we had our monthly local today, sadly only 18 people showed up due to the soccer. I ran the standard Hybrid list with no tech or anything whatsoever. Ran hot and went 4-0 and drew into first place.

My matches:

Round 1: 2-0 vs Miracles. G1 I had a fast protected kill, G2 went long but he died when I topdecked 3 Sneak Attacks in a row.

Round 2: 2-0 vs Eldrazi: In both games he had no interaction and died on turns 2/3

Round 3: 2-0 vs Burn: See round 2

Round 4: 2-0 vs ANT: G1 I saw all 4 Forces, he had a a lot of discard but had to use petals to cast it, so he ran out of cards in hand and I was able to assemble the combo quickly. G2 he made a misplay, he went off into a Cunning Wish with 3 mana open, got the Past in Flames, I wished for Surgical and took his tutors. GG pretty quickly after that.

Round 5: Draw vs Mono Red Sneak. Played for funsies after that. In both Games I had the turn 2 kill.

Overall the list felt amazing, though obviously I got pretty lucky with my MUs. The one thing I am totally clueless about is boarding. In all the matches I only sideboarded twice (-1 Mountain +1 Boseiju vs Miracle and -3 one Drops +3 Blood Moon vs Eldrazi). No clue what the actual procedure is here. Do I sideboard out a Force vs ANT to have it as a wish Target? Do I bring in bounce vs permanent based hate? Do I upgrade my pierces to REB and Fluster vs Miracles?

[mistervader]

I was gonna post a report, but since this guy above me most likely went to the same tournament as I with the same deck (edit: I realize now he didn't), I suppose there's no need to write one, except to point out that I went with 2 Boseiju, 2 Blood Moon, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Wipe Away in my board.

Round 1: 2-1 vs Infect. Except for FOW and Pierce and Daze, it was all about the faster goldfish. And I was faster two times out of three.

Round 2: 2-0 vs Dredge. Second turn Omniscience into Emrakul after an opening Ponder. Both games.

Round 3: 2-1 vs Miracles. Misplayed game 2 by Sneaking in Grisel instead of Emrakul during the turn before he would have lethal. I whiffed on Petal for the greedy win after drawing 14. Boseiju sealed his fate game 3. Omniscience into Emrakul.

Round 4: 2-0 vs Elves. Omniscience into Emrakul on game 1, straight Show into Emrakul on game 2.

Round 5 and 6: ID.

[Julian23]

Thought you guys might be interested:u Brett Jayne is playing Sneak Show in Season#1 of the Legacy Mediocre League (http://legacymediocreleague.com/).

You can find his decklist (http://s623881501.online.de/bretts-deck) over at the website. This is his Week#3 match vs Tezzerator:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wou-cqfecQ

All other VODs of the League are on our YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAnZCGszYaNty0d_vbD5PSQ).

[3mag5num7]

Hello one and all. I've been playing Legacy for a little while now with largely fair decks like Nic Fit and U/R Delver. But I'm getting a different urge of late. I love my fair decks and I'll definitely keep them around, but I've been curious about sampling the dark side of late.

I ran some goldfishing with proxies, then ran around on Cockatrice for awhile and really like the feel of Sneak and Show. However, the most talked about part of this thread has been the recent hybrid variation (I'm throwing my vote in now for "Sneaky Science") that combines elements of Sneak and Show and OmniTell. I've been playtesting with the more traditional version, but this new variant seems to be gaining more and more steam. Some quick goldfishing with a hybrid list felt pretty smooth, but I'm curious about why this list has been cropping up more. Is it better suited to taking on the current meta? Is adding the Omni-Wish gameplan just another way to attack players?

One way or another, I plan to cast many Show and Tells in the near future, but I'm curious as to how I should go about it.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Signed,
A Combo Noob

[JPA]

Congrats, demonlord340, stnikolauswagne and mistervader on your tournament results!


Hello one and all.

Welcome! The hybrid build is more versatile (therefore more hate-resilient, easier to get around Containment Priest and Karakas, for example) and has a better Eldrazi-matchup. *late edit: and a much better Death and Taxes matchup!
The instant-kill via Omniscience is also often relevant.

The traditional build is a little more consistent / faster.

Just try out both versions and play the one you enjoy more; I can't really say that one is better than the other, even though the Omni-build might be the better choice if you expect a lot of Eldrazi and Containment Priests.

[wasabizod]

Went 3-0 at our weekly legacy event last night against Eldrazi, Enchantress, and Burn. Was running the following 75

4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul
1 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Show and Tell
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm

4 Lotus Petal
4 Sneak Attack
2 Omniscience

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

1 Ashen Rider
3 Blood Moon
2 Boseiju
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm (don't have Kozilek's Return yet)
1 Through the Breach

Overall the deck felt great (was playing -2 Omniscience, +2 Preordain last week) and while I'm still figuring out how to sequence things (only second week with the deck, but playing a lot on MTGO last week), I have a few questions about lines of play that I ran into last night.

--- Scenario 1 ---
M1G3: I have Island, Tomb, and Petal in play, with Force, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Griselbrand, and Blood Moon in hand against Eldrazi. He has a Mimic, Brushland, and Mishra's Factory in play with 4 cards in hand. Life totals are high at this point.

Do you:
A - Cast blood moon off of petal + tomb and play it safe?
B - Cast Show and Tell with Griselbrand and hope card draw + lifelink gets you there?
C - Cast Show and Tell with Omniscience hoping to be a topdeck hero?

My expectation in this scenario is that he will either have a reality smasher or thought-knot if I show and tell, so I only get to use 2 of the 3 cards I would love to play (besides Show and Tell). I ended up taking line C and drawing Griselbrand the following turn, but I think line B, followed up by a Blood Moon would have been the correct route.

--- Scenario 2 ---
M2G1: I don't know this guy or what he's playing and my opening hand is Petal, Tomb, Show and Tell, Emrakul, Probe, Force, Fetchland.
Do you:
A - Probe to check the coast is clear and then delay yourself a turn from being able to Show Emrakul with Force as protection?
B - Jam! This deck loves to cheat fatties into play?

I took line B, he said resolves, and then when I flipped Emrakul, he flipped Exploration and conceded.

So... what do you sideboard?

My take is he's either on Lands, Enchantress, or something with mana fixing, so I brought in 3 Blood Moon and 1 Echoing Truth for 3 Spell Pierce and 1 Flusterstorm. What would you have done?

---
Would love your feedback. :-)

[JPA]

--- Scenario 1 ---
M1G3: I have Island, Tomb, and Petal in play, with Force, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Griselbrand, and Blood Moon in hand against Eldrazi. He has a Mimic, Brushland, and Mishra's Factory in play with 4 cards in hand. Life totals are high at this point.

Do you:
A - Cast blood moon off of petal + tomb and play it safe?
B - Cast Show and Tell with Griselbrand and hope card draw + lifelink gets you there?
C - Cast Show and Tell with Omniscience hoping to be a topdeck hero?

My expectation in this scenario is that he will either have a reality smasher or thought-knot if I show and tell, so I only get to use 2 of the 3 cards I would love to play (besides Show and Tell). I ended up taking line C and drawing Griselbrand the following turn, but I think line B, followed up by a Blood Moon would have been the correct route.

Option A is the most defensive, least risky route. Even though you need to draw another mana source to go off, you basically lock them out of casting relevant spells and even if they do, you still have Force-backup.
Option B only "loses" to Karakas (and normally Endbringer as well, but you have Blood Moon to lock them out of colorless mana), but I think it's highly likely that you find a way to get around that in the 7 (with Tomb and Mimic you probably won't be able to draw 14) cards you'll draw.
Option C only "loses" to Thought-Knot-Seer, but like you wrote, they are highly likely to have one in hand and the chance that you die before drawing a relevant card to cast with Omniscience is higher than I'd like it to be.
I think it's a close call, but I would have probably gone for Option B. In the absolute worst case, Griselbrand gets bounced back to your hand with Karakas. Even then, you have Blood Moon with Force-backup for the next turn AND get to draw 7 cards.
Still, I don't think there is a "wrong" option among the three, even though Option C probably has the highest risk/reward ratio. If they don't have Thought-Knot-Seer to exile your Griselbrand, you probably win the same turn. If they do have it, you need to pray to the topdeck-god. :wink:


--- Scenario 2 ---
M2G1: I don't know this guy or what he's playing and my opening hand is Petal, Tomb, Show and Tell, Emrakul, Probe, Force, Fetchland.
Do you:
A - Probe to check the coast is clear and then delay yourself a turn from being able to Show Emrakul with Force as protection?
B - Jam! This deck loves to cheat fatties into play?

On the play, without any information on my opponent's deck, I'd definitely Probe first. That's exactly the kind of scenario which Probe is in the deck for. Even if you see a Force of Will on their side, you might draw a blue card off Probe. The risk of running into Karakas or the mirror is too high here not to cast Probe.

I took line B, he said resolves, and then when I flipped Emrakul, he flipped Exploration and conceded.

So... what do you sideboard?

I didn't even know Enchantress played Exploration, I would have definitely boarded against Lands. Blood Moon, Echoing Truth, Ashen Rider, Through the Breach and maybe Jace in, some combination of counters and/or Probes out.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't board Blood Moon against Enchantress. They play a ton of basics and the Utopia Sprawl - effects.

[Whit3boy316]

Hello,
Can you guys tell me what kind of meta rhis dexk eants to be in? To give you an example of that im playing against here is my 9 man tourny that went off today.
3 infect (could easily be 4 but my friend was a no show)
1 d&t
1 junk deathblade
1 brew (like red blue flyers...looked like jank)
1 burn
1 manaless dredge
Shardless(me)

I also play against r/u delver.....woukd this deck be good in the meta?

[demonlord340]

I've only been on the deck for a few weeks, but that seems like a fine meta. As long as your packing 2 Grafidgger's Cage in the board, the only rough matchup is Death and Taxes. You probably want to build your side board with infect in mind. Blood moon is pretty good as it shuts down their manlands, and messes with their mana, and then some combination of sudden shock, pyroclasms, and kozilek's return can take care of the rest.

[stnikolauswagne]

Played another small local today, sadly only 15 people, but insane price support.

Round 1 vs Big Red 2-0 (1-0)
G1: I force his first Sneak Attack, let his Inferno Titan resolve and then Sneak in an Emrakul to put him down to 1 life and 0 permanents. Cunning Wish for Sudden Shock ends the game.
No Sb
G2: He plays a naked Sneak Attack on T2, I have SnT+Omni+Grisel+Emrakul.

Round 2 vs Death and Taxes 2-1 (2-0)
G1: I keep a 6 with Petal, Basic Island, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Cunning Wish, Scry a Brainstorm on Top. He opens with Plains, Go, my Brainstorm bricks completely (redundant Sneak Attack, 2 Emrakul), he slams a Thalia and follows up with Spirit of the Labyrinth. Thats all she wrote.
SB: OTP: -1 Force, -1 Pierce, +2 Blood Moon (probably wrong), OTD: -2 Pierce +2 Blood Moon
G2: He has a slow start and I have the turn 3 kill via Omniscience.
G3: He hits me down to 12 with a SFM equipped with SoFI, but I manage to Show and Tell in an Omniscience. His Flickerwisp buys him a turn, which puts me down to 4, but I have Emrakul and topdeck a Cunning Wish in my extra turn.

Round 3 vs Miracles 2-1 (3-0)
G1: I keep a solid hand with a Sneak Attack and a Show and Tell + Omniscience + Cantrips + Permission. Sadly I dont see a single business spell in 4 cantrips and die with an Omniscience on the field.
SB: -1 Mountain, +1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
G2: My opening Hand has Boseiju + Show and Tell Omniscience. He puts in a Counterbalance and has a Red Blast and a Wear//Tear to fight my Omniscience but thankfully he never has a 1 on top, so my double Pierce + Force is enough to cantrip my way to an Emrakul.
G3: He is a bit light on mana, and when I play a Show and Tell after EoT wishing for a Flusterstorm he lets it resolve. I put in an Emrakul, which he could not answer at all. My hand was pretty stacked though and he would have been hard pressed to fight through Pierce + Fluster + Force with only 3 mana.

Round 4 vs Canadian Threshold ID (3-0-1)
Draw with a Buddy to split the prices. From extensive testing this MU feels pretty 50-50 to me. My boarding plan is -3 Omniscience, -1 Force, +3 Blood Moon, +1 Boseiju

We win a Bayou and a Tundra. Not bad for such a small tournament.

Since the tournament was over so quick we fire another 8 man.

Round 1 vs Lands 2-0 (1-0)
Kill him on turn 3 both Games, he can't put up much of a fight. SB: -2 Pierce, -1 Preordain, +3 Blood Moon

Round 2 vs Aggro Loam 2-0 (2-0)
G1 I make a horrible mistake and put in a Griselbrand when he has an active Liliana even though I had the Omniscience in hand. Thankfully the -7 finds me another Show and Tell and I can kill him the next turn.
SB: -1 Pierce, -2 Preordain, +3 Blood Moon
G2 I have to cantrip for a few turns to assemble my kill. On turn 4 I play a Show and Tell with no Land Drop made, an untapped City of Traitors. He has Dark Depths + Thespians Stage on the Board and an active Knight. I put in a Griselbrand and Draw 14, which finds me another land and 2 Show and Tell but no Omniscience. Seeing as how I was pretty much dead in the water the next turn I make the hail mary move of playing a Show and Tell, hoping that he would not make a token in response, which allowed me to put in a Blood Moon to stop the combo. The next Turn I find the Omniscience and can kill him.

Round 3 vs Miracles 0-2 (2-1)
G1 He finds 3 Forces and 2 Counterspell, which is enough to run me out of action. Sometimes they have it, nothing to be done about it.
SB: -1 Mountain, +1 Boseiju
G2: I get completely destroyed. As I learned later he boarded in 4 Red Blasts, a Snapcaster, 3 Flusterstorm, 2 Containment Priest, a second Wear//Tear and even had enough room for a Blood Moon to randomly hose potential Boseiju plays. I dont see my Boseiju and get absolutely manhandled by his permission.

We play a few test matches after to see how the matchup works and I go 1-5, with the one win brought along by Boseiju.

So, my main question is: Did I simply get unlucky in the last match by being paired against a very, very good Miracles player with an insanely hateful sideboard or did I get very lucky in my last matches against Miracles? On Paper this doesn't look like that bad of a Matchup. If the situation demands it we can sit back for a few turns, use Cunning Wish and Cantrips to sculpt a decently defensive hand and then go off protected. This plan seems to absolutely fall flat against the sheer amount of permission being put forward here. So how do I fight it? I've been thinking about making room for 3 Boseiju somewhere in the 75, but is that even possible? I arrived at the conclusion that I can relatively painlessly fit in a second one in the spot of the third Blood Moon, but where do I fit in the third one. Four things came to mind: 1) Cut a Preordain, run Boseiju in the main 2) Cut the Trickbind 3) Run 61 cards main, 4) I am being paranoid and so many Boseiju are not needed.

[3mag5num7]

So, if I'm taking the standard, non-hybrid version into a relatively unknown meta (the only thing I know is that it's a little lighter on blue decks than average) what should I do with my sideboard?

My list is this:

Creatures (8)
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Griselbrand

Instants (13)
4x Brainstorm
2x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
1x Intuition
2x Spell Pierce

Sorceries (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Show and Tell

Enchantments (4)
4x Sneak Attack

Artifacts (4)
4x Lotus Petal

Lands (19)
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
3x Island
1x Mountain
3x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
3x Blood Moon
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Defense Grid
1x Echoing Truth
2x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm
2x Sudden Shock
1x Through the Breach
1x Wipe Away

What do you guys think of my board? Probably pretty stock, but I figured I'd ask before bringing the deck out. And what matchups is Through the Breach for? Just the times when you want one more piece of action?

[JPA]

4) I am being paranoid and so many Boseiju are not needed.

Probably this. 2 Boseiju is probably the right number, with Miracles being the powerhouse that it is. They don't have a counter-overload pre-board, so main deck Boseiju is not necessary and a dead card in way too many matchups.
Miracles is a highly positive matchup pre-board and slightly negative to even post-board. In the post-board games where you find Boseiju, it becomes absurdly easy. Without Boseiju it's pretty difficult, their post-board deck consists almost solely of counters, cantrips and hate-bears.


unknown meta (the only thing I know is that it's a little lighter on blue decks than average) what should I do with my sideboard?


Your list looks fine for an open meta, even though I don't like Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce main. And I'd definitely add a second Through the Breach to the sideboard, it's especially good if you run Boseiju as well.
Through the Breach is for matchups where you either board out some amount of Show and Tells (Mirror, Reanimator, etc.) or want more threat density/diversity (Miracles, Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, etc.).

[3mag5num7]

Your list looks fine for an open meta, even though I don't like Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce main. And I'd definitely add a second Through the Breach to the sideboard, it's especially good if you run Boseiju as well.
Through the Breach is for matchups where you either board out some amount of Show and Tells (Mirror, Reanimator, etc.) or want more threat density/diversity (Miracles, Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, etc.).

Thanks for the tips. So you prefer the full 4 Spell Pierce over the 2-2 split? If it's a big deal, I can go ahead and pick up the 4th Pierce and plug two of them in over the Flusterstorms. Would Flusterstorm(s) be a worthy inclusion in the side in that case?

[JPA]

Thanks for the tips. So you prefer the full 4 Spell Pierce over the 2-2 split? If it's a big deal, I can go ahead and pick up the 4th Pierce and plug two of them in over the Flusterstorms. Would Flusterstorm(s) be a worthy inclusion in the side in that case?

I think I always played 3 or 4 Spell Pierce in every Sneak and Show list I ever played. Main deck Flusterstorm isn't bad, but I don't think it is necessary right now, Spell Pierce hits too many relevant cards (Counterbalance and Planeswalkers in particular). 1-2 Flusterstorms would be a worthy inclusion in the sideboard, yes.

[SFL-Brainstorm]

One of our local legacy players took down the SCG Orlando Classic a few weeks ago with Sneak and Show. His tournament report can be found here for anyone interested: http://southfloridamagic.com/nice-sweet-fantastic-1st-scg-orlando-legacy/

[demonlord340]

Based on the above report, and other people who are trying the Omni-build, are there times where you feel it's less good? I've been thinking of trying it, but I feel like it just creates more awkward draws(which this deck already has a number of). Does it really help that much to take up 3 slots?

[mistervader]

Based on the above report, and other people who are trying the Omni-build, are there times where you feel it's less good? I've been thinking of trying it, but I feel like it just creates more awkward draws(which this deck already has a number of). Does it really help that much to take up 3 slots?

It really helps, because if you can recall, it makes Emmy, Grisel, and Sneak Attack all 3-ofs, so that's where your 3-of Omni comes in. It's a straight swap that makes for far less clunky draws.

That being said, just for style points, I much prefer the UWR version that allows you to bring in Mentors and/or Nahiri from the board, if only because nobody is prepared for that in the second game.

[demonlord340]

I'm not sure what you mean by straight swap. I get that it's good when you can just cast an Emrakul off of Omni, but what about when you have a Show and Tell and Omniscience, but no fatty. Or a Sneak Attack and Omniscience and no fatty. Or Omniscience and a fatty, but no Sneak Attack. It has essentially turned the two card combo and turned it into a three card combo, which is what has me concerned about clunkiness.

[littledonnie19]

It really helps, because if you can recall, it makes Emmy, Grisel, and Sneak Attack all 3-ofs, so that's where your 3-of Omni comes in. It's a straight swap that makes for far less clunky draws.

That being said, just for style points, I much prefer the UWR version that allows you to bring in Mentors and/or Nahiri from the board, if only because nobody is prepared for that in the second game.

I would very much he interested in seeing a Nahiri / Mentor list.

[wasabizod]

Here's a list with the transformational SB:

2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
2 Spell Pierce

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sneak Attack

SIDEBOARD
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Sudden Shock
1 Wear / Tear
1 Wipe Away


Via http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12754&d=273930


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[3mag5num7]

Got to take this deck (fairly stock, non-Omniscience build) out to the local Legacy night for the first time and went 3-1.

I didn't take a ton of notes or anything for a big write up (too busy trying not to screw everything up lol), but I've got a brief little outline.

Match 1: Shardless BUG (2-0)
This was a bloodbath. I won both games big and he was never able to slow me down in any meaningful way.

Match 2: Burn (2-1)
First game wasn't a real game of Magic. He tapped his mana a few times then I ate his face with the Spaghetti Lord. Second game I had a turn one Show and Tell into Emmy or a more patient route for Sneak Attack. I got super excited and plopped Emmy into play turn one. His end of the Show and Tell was an Ensnaring Bridge. He proceeds to spit hot fire while I draw into nothing useful. Lesson learned. Game three was a lot like the second, but I took the patient Sneak Attack route this time and won without too much trouble.

Match 3: Grixis Delver (0-2)
A couple misplays lost me the first game and a strong hand in the second kept me from getting where I needed to be. Both games were close, but I couldn't pull them out.

Match 4: Eldrazi Stompy (2-0)
He played some Thorns and Chalices backed up by beaters and I just didn't care. Show and Tell for 4 is still game over.

The deck is so much fun and just ridiculously powerful. I definitely wanna keep playing it.


And I'd definitely add a second Through the Breach to the sideboard, it's especially good if you run Boseiju as well.
Through the Breach is for matchups where you either board out some amount of Show and Tells (Mirror, Reanimator, etc.) or want more threat density/diversity (Miracles, Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, etc.).

Thanks for this advice, JPA. I added a second Through the Breach to the board and DID NOT regret it. Through the Breach was a superstar and won me a few matches. Good in general and even better with Boseiju.

[S1N1STER]

Ended up getting top 32 at the SCG Worcester event last weekend with the hybrid list. Was the 1st time playing this over the traditional sneak and show so I made a couple mistakes like putting in omniscience into play off an uncounterable show and tell instead of just dropping griselbrand. Also had a few awkward games like my only day 1 loss to Joe Lossett where I never saw any creatures just omni, sneak, and show then proceeded to die to a single snapcaster. There was however a game 1 vs miracles were I had an show and tell off boseiju and my openent put in a emrakul, so this was where I was glad I had omniscience.

[movingtonewao]

Here's a list with the transformational SB:

2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
2 Spell Pierce

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sneak Attack

SIDEBOARD
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Sudden Shock
1 Wear / Tear
1 Wipe Away


Via http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12754&d=273930


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

how does this deck transform? what goes out and in.

[JPA]

Ended up getting top 32 at the SCG Worcester event last weekend with the hybrid list.

Congrats! I noticed you cut 1 Preordain for 1 Boseiju. I'm not a fan of main deck Boseiju, especially because Miracles doesn't have a lot of counters pre-board anyway. How did it perform for you?

[S1N1STER]

Congrats! I noticed you cut 1 Preordain for 1 Boseiju. I'm not a fan of main deck Boseiju, especially because Miracles doesn't have a lot of counters pre-board anyway. How did it perform for you?

To be honest a large part of that was because I have 1 foil preordain, it should probably be in the sideboard, but I definitely want 2 in the 75. One of my losses to miracles was with a hand of show and tell, Omnisciences, emrakuls and after I have killed my opponents snapcaster and containment priest he were both just discarding every turn while I was trying to find one of the boseijus, at one point over half my deck was in the graveyard.

[H]

how does this deck transform? what goes out and in.

I'm curious about this too. I presume you want to take out Show and Tells, plus Sneak Attack, and some number of Griselbrand, but that is probably wrong. Perhaps you cut all the S&T and a couple of Griselbrand and a couple Sneaks for the Mentors, Lavamancers, Cavern and Shocks? Obviously depending on the match-up though.

[Daniel89]

I'm curious about this too. I presume you want to take out Show and Tells, plus Sneak Attack, and some number of Griselbrand, but that is probably wrong. Perhaps you cut all the S&T and a couple of Griselbrand and a couple Sneaks for the Mentors, Lavamancers, Cavern and Shocks? Obviously depending on the match-up though.

I'm not sure, but I think someone would take out something from both comboparts. only Show and Tell/Sneak Attack isn't worth anything, only fatties the same.

Different question: I'm currently playing around with the Hybrid variant, I wanted to ask what you think about 2 JTMS instead of the Preordain? I really like JTMS in the classic Sneak Show, but I'm not sure if they are good in the Hybrid or too clunky or something like that?

[wasabizod]

I'm curious about this too. I presume you want to take out Show and Tells, plus Sneak Attack, and some number of Griselbrand, but that is probably wrong. Perhaps you cut all the S&T and a couple of Griselbrand and a couple Sneaks for the Mentors, Lavamancers, Cavern and Shocks? Obviously depending on the match-up though.

I'm actually not sure what this ends up playing out like. I'm guessing Mentors come in against D&T? But honestly, I've been having luck with a traditional build (no wish package) with 2 Omni's in the main.

JPA, I saw you just posted a 5-0 with a traditional build with 2 Jaces. How was that?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So is the new Eldrazi Wish not something that this Archetype is keen on?

[JPA]

JPA, I saw you just posted a 5-0 with a traditional build with 2 Jaces. How was that?

Got another 5-0 yesterday, 18-2 with this list so far. The main deck is tuned against Miracles and I added Defense Grid to the sideboard for Grixis Delver. List feels very strong and I just wanted to try something new (or old, in this case :wink: ).


So is the new Eldrazi Wish not something that this Archetype is keen on?

Nope.

[wasabizod]

Got another 5-0 yesterday, 18-2 with this list so far. The main deck is tuned against Miracles and I added Defense Grid to the sideboard for Grixis Delver. List feels very strong and I just wanted to try something new (or old, in this case :wink: ).


Haha totally. I've been running a similar list with Omni in place of Jace and 1 Simian Spirit Guide for the 4th Spell Pierce or 3rd Probe, depending on the day and I love how it's been working. I'm going to try to swap in Jaces, since Omni is a terrible top deck late in the game, and there's definitely some spots Jace could have got me out of. But whoa is S&T into Omni on T2/3 a fun way to play magic.

[H]

I'm actually not sure what this ends up playing out like. I'm guessing Mentors come in against D&T? But honestly, I've been having luck with a traditional build (no wish package) with 2 Omni's in the main.

Yeah, I'm just totally guessing honestly. I was considering bringing that UWR list to FNM this week and just guessing, but I'm not exactly a veteran of Sneak and Show, so perhaps that is a really bad idea.

I imagine you really want Nahiri versus Pyroblast/REB decks. Mentor perhaps for decks where Containment priest would be an issue? (Miracles?)

It seems really risky to bring it in versus D&T because one Wasteland and the whole plan is basically shot.

[wasabizod]

Yeah, the boarding seemed different compared to my (limited) experience.

I've actually been exploring a different route for my D&T matchup, which is including Elesh Norn in the board. This also helps against Mentor Miracles.

The D&T cards I worry about are the lands, StP, and Pithing Needle/Revoker. While I can't fix the Pithing Needle problem, blood moon + Elesh Norn definitely feels like it helps a bit.

Has anyone tried this?


[Edit: Nevermind, this is super narrow.]

[Ragdoll]

Quick question: why is lotus petal used here instead of simian spirit guide?

[Chatto]

Quick question: why is lotus petal used here instead of simian spirit guide?

Because Petal can make Blue, so you can potentially combo t1.

[H]

Yeah, the boarding seemed different compared to my (limited) experience.

I had, at first, thought of it as a transformative board, but I don't think it actually is. I think it is instead a way to diversify your threats in order to keep your opponent from simply blowing you out with a Containment Priest, or the like.

In this context I think more often, it could be better to simply bring in what you feel you should and shave a few Show and Tells, maybe a couple fatties, maybe a Sneak Attack, some kind of combination like that.

I think I'll try the list this Friday, I usually prefer playing a grindy BUG deck, but I don't think I am up for that this week.

[wasabizod]

JPA, this may have been asked before, but I'm interested in why you're choosing to run Pyroclasm over Kozilek's return?

The advantage of the former is obviously that it's cheaper, however it's only sorcery speed and it has a color associated with it (not MoM-proof).

[JPA]

JPA, this may have been asked before, but I'm interested in why you're choosing to run Pyroclasm over Kozilek's return?

The advantage of the former is obviously that it's cheaper, however it's only sorcery speed and it has a color associated with it (not MoM-proof).

When Kozilek's Return came out, I tested it a lot and liked it quite a bit. However, in my current list, I wanted the best possible post-board configuration against Grixis Delver and Pyroclasm's reduced cost is highly relevant against them (because of their fast clock, mana-denial and soft-counters).

[wasabizod]

When Kozilek's Return came out, I tested it a lot and liked it quite a bit. However, in my current list, I wanted the best possible post-board configuration against Grixis Delver and Pyroclasm's reduced cost is highly relevant against them (because of their fast clock, mana-denial and soft-counters).

Thanks for the response. I imagined this was the case. Yesterday I beat infect in a league only because I was able to Pyroclasm their agent with 2 mana open against a spell pierce. Made me aware of how relevant the extra mana was, and for delver I imagine it's the same, given how many wastelands they use.

As an aside, is the general strategy against infect to go for sneak attack rather than show a fatty in, given that they can crop rotate for Karakas?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JPA]

As an aside, is the general strategy against infect to go for sneak attack rather than show a fatty in, given that they can crop rotate for Karakas?


There is no general strategy against Infect, you have to adapt to the situation. Show and Tell into Griselbrand is usually enough, even if they have Karakas (which they only have post-board, usually). Unless you know their hand you should try to play around Daze/Pierce, whenever possible. Sudden Shock and Wipe Away are very useful cards against them, so I like to play the control-role post-board and go for the combo rather late, when I have enough open mana to play around soft-counters or enough counter-backup of my own to force it through.

[HeartNana]

Hey guys :)
I wanted to know your opinion about boarding in defense grid against grixis delver.
I am running two of them in my sb because i don't play boesju.

Would you guys board it in or leave it out.
For me the main reason to leave them out is the fact that the are running after postboard up to 4 cabal therapy.

Best regards elmar

[JPA]

I wanted to know your opinion about boarding in defense grid against grixis delver.


We get wrecked by Therapy (especially with Pyromancer) anyway and Grid shuts off their overload of counters. With my latest list I always board in Grid against Grixis Delver and it has been very good most of the time. Even if you they discard most of your hand after you resolved Grid, you can be sure that your high-impact topdecks (Pyroclasm to buy time, Sneak/Show to win the game) are going to resolve.

[HeartNana]

We get wrecked by Therapy (especially with Pyromancer) anyway and Grid shuts off their overload of counters. With my latest list I always board in Grid against Grixis Delver and it has been very good most of the time. Even if you they discard most of your hand after you resolved Grid, you can be sure that your high-impact topdecks (Pyroclasm to buy time,
Sneak/Show to win the game) are going to resolve.

Thanks JPA for your fast answer :)
I absolutely agree with your statements and the make sense to me :)
I will try it and then let you guys know how it works.

[JPA]

Congratulations to Tom Luckett for winning the SCG Columbus Legacy Classic with Omnisneak. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105624)

I'm not sure how effective Release the Ants without Firemind's Foresight is, though. :wink:

[HeartNana]

Hey guys :)
What do you think about the new thalia?
Do we need cards like fire/ice or izzet charm against her in maindeck.

greetings

[LRats]

Hey guys :)
What do you think about the new thalia?
Do we need cards like fire/ice or izzet charm against her in maindeck.

greetings

I don't think we need anything main deck to deal with her. She isn't that big of a problem. Original Thalia is still much better. First, THC is kind of slow, so we have a huge potential to just win before she's a problem. If she is out, and we have Sneak Attack, just activate it on their end step. I think we are fine main deck wise, Pyroclasm/Kozilek's Return/Sudden Shock from the board should be enough.

[Benama9]

Hi,

I've been a long time reader of this post, and I'd like to join the online community as well. :)

I've been putting together this deck for almost one year and a half, and I've already 90% of it, including duals, fetches and all but one city of traitors.

Unfortunately, the recent spikes have made me reconsider the purchase of the last city of traitors, and I'd like to know whether this deck is viable with 4 sol lands or not. Does anyone have that experience?

If so, how would you replace the city? Someone suggested me to replace it with an island or a fetch. What do you think?

Thanks!

[demonlord340]

If a ton of miracles is running around in your meta, replacing one with a boseiuju wouldn't be the worst.

[HeartNana]

I don't think we need anything main deck to deal with her. She isn't that big of a problem. Original Thalia is still much better. First, THC is kind of slow, so we have a huge potential to just win before she's a problem. If she is out, and we have Sneak Attack, just activate it on their end step. I think we are fine main deck wise, Pyroclasm/Kozilek's Return/Sudden Shock from the board should be enough.

Thx for answer dude :)
I agree with all of your statements.
But the problem will be if the have the new thalia and also karakas then it will be hard for us.

[HeartNana]

Hi,

I've been a long time reader of this post, and I'd like to join the online community as well. :)

I've been putting together this deck for almost one year and a half, and I've already 90% of it, including duals, fetches and all but one city of traitors.

Unfortunately, the recent spikes have made me reconsider the purchase of the last city of traitors, and I'd like to know whether this deck is viable with 4 sol lands or not. Does anyone have that experience?

If so, how would you replace the city? Someone suggested me to replace it with an island or a fetch. What do you think?

Thanks!

Hey :)
I would say you can also play it with 4 sol-lands but it will be very hard to play. You minimize the turn 1 show and tells and also turn 3 sneak attacks in matchups where you have to be very fast like burn or grixis delver for example. You will be worser against dazes and pierces.
But it depends on your meta. If your meta is slower and full of miracles you can replace it maybe with boseju, but i have to tell you that I hate boseju.
When you have meta with a lot of lands decks or wastelands deck you can play a 4 island or 8 fetchies instead of the typically 7 onces.
For more speed in your deck you can also try a one off simian spirit guide. I tested this guy the last 4 tournaments and it was very good.
Hope that helps you a bit.
Best regards

[Benama9]

Hey :)
I would say you can also play it with 4 sol-lands but it will be very hard to play. You minimize the turn 1 show and tells and also turn 3 sneak attacks in matchups where you have to be very fast like burn or grixis delver for example. You will be worser against dazes and pierces.
But it depends on your meta. If your meta is slower and full of miracles you can replace it maybe with boseju, but i have to tell you that I hate boseju.
When you have meta with a lot of lands decks or wastelands deck you can play a 4 island or 8 fetchies instead of the typically 7 onces.
For more speed in your deck you can also try a one off simian spirit guide. I tested this guy the last 4 tournaments and it was very good.
Hope that helps you a bit.
Best regards

I understand what you mean.

On the other hand, I actually have a crystal vain I'm not using, and though I'm not very hyped about that option, it could make up temporarily for a one shot speed snt / sneak attack as you mention ( I might buy a 4rth ancient tomb in the future )

I know is not ideal, but could it be a better option than just adding an island?

Thanks

[HeartNana]

I understand what you mean.

On the other hand, I actually have a crystal vain I'm not using, and though I'm not very hyped about that option, it could make up temporarily for a one shot speed snt / sneak attack as you mention ( I might buy a 4rth ancient tomb in the future )

I know is not ideal, but could it be a better option than just adding an island?

Thanks

Yeah you can try it out :)
It's not optimal but better than nothing.
But you should run 3 tombs 2 citys in your finished list.

[Benama9]

Yeah I think I will. Thanks for the advice :)

[HeartNana]

Hey guys :)

This is the list I am playing at the moment & I am doing very well with it.
I made 2 Top8's the last two local tournaments and after a long testing session yesterday I can say this list is the best at the moment for a meta with lands,loam,grixis delver,miracles,eldrazi,dnt, sneak show mirror and eldrazi

MAIN(60):
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Intuition
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Preordain
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Islands
SB(15):
2 Blood Moon
2 Defense Grid
2 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Shock
2 Through the Breach
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction or maybe 1 Grafdigger's Cage ?
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Wipe Away

Best regards Elmar :)

[LRats]

Thx for answer dude :)
I agree with all of your statements.
But the problem will be if the have the new thalia and also karakas then it will be hard for us.

That's what Omniscience is for. If you're still on traditional Sneak and Show your D&T match-up is abysmal anyway.

[Chatto]

I finally gave way, and have made a U-based deck for fun. Right now, I just need a couple of cards for Show and Tell (already have the manabase): Sneak Attack and Emrakul. Could you guys give me a good standard list? I thought about using JPA's list for reference, would that be okay? Thanks in advance.

[JPA]

I finally gave way, and have made a U-based deck for fun. Right now, I just need a couple of cards for Show and Tell (already have the manabase): Sneak Attack and Emrakul. Could you guys give me a good standard list? I thought about using JPA's list for reference, would that be okay? Thanks in advance.

Welcome. :wink:

Sneak and Show (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/453425) (2 Jace could be 2 Intuition or 1 Misdirection 1 Preordain, or a mix of those / 4th Probe / anything you want)
Omnisneak (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/438650)

[Chatto]

Welcome. :wink:

Sneak and Show (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/453425) (2 Jace could be 2 Intuition or 1 Misdirection 1 Preordain, or a mix of those / 4th Probe / anything you want)
Omnisneak (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/438650)


Thanks, and thanks! :smile:

[Fallen_Empire]

Has anyone tried playing with diamond valley? Seems like a great way to gain life after you sneak in the fatties.

[Tokugawa]

Has anyone tried playing with diamond valley? Seems like a great way to gain life after you sneak in the fatties.
For a competitive constructed format(e.g. legacy in 2016), it is not a serious card.

[drude1]

New to the thread. Picked this deck up online and have been enjoying it. I do have a question about Sol lands though. This seems like the one deck where Crystal vein might actually be better than the other ones. You typically only need the double colorless once to cast your bomb spell. Otherwise tapping for one colorless routinely also works well. I had actually one game where I built up enough mana to hard cast Emrakul against miracles using the Crystal vein. Would not have survived the damage from ancient tomb and obviously can't play four city of traders. This is obviously a corner case but the point remains. Anyone else have any thoughts about Crystal vein over ancient tomb or city of traders?

Also, I'm playing the version with omniscience and cunning wish. For people playing that version, why am I not seeing firemind's foresight in the sideboard more often in other people's lists? People just don't want to make the room for it?


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[Koby]

@drude1
Likely the result of exho chamber. Copy/pasta week in and week out.

[JPA]

This seems like the one deck where Crystal vein might actually be better than the other ones. You typically only need the double colorless once to cast your bomb spell.

We're rarely an all-in deck. A reusable Sol-Land is much better than Crystal Vein, outside of budget reasons.



Also, I'm playing the version with omniscience and cunning wish. For people playing that version, why am I not seeing firemind's foresight in the sideboard more often in other people's lists? People just don't want to make the room for it?


I have seen exactly one Omnisneak list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105624) without Firemind's Foresight so far. Seems pretty nonsensical to run Release the Ants without Firemind's Foresight. :laugh:

[LRats]

@fallen Empire. Diamond Valley is garbage. We can't afford to run a land that doesn't produce mana, and is only relevant when we use Sneak Attack. It's just a waste of a slot.

@drude1. We really don't want to be sacrificing our lands. We want our Sol lands to stick around as long as possible. They can help us get to a point where we can hardcast Force if we have to, and they are also great against taxing effects. As for Firemind's Foresight, just about every Cunning Wish list runs it, so I don't know what lists you are looking at (unless the only one you've looked at was the one JPA linked).

[snaga]

The biggest selling point for Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors over the likes of Crystal Vein, Sandstone Needle or Saprazzan Skerry is the ability to still function around taxing effects in your development turns.
Being able to cast Brainstorm / Ponder / Impulse through a Thalia or Thorn of Amethyst or Daze or Spell Pierce AND being able to use those same land in your combo turn is a big plus.

[quadich]

The thing with crystal vein is that it is only really better in cornercase scenarios that are much rarer than the situation where the sacrifice clause makes it worse.

Anyways against what meta would you guys recommend the cunning wish list? I have been testing it and it really only feels worse against delver decks, which have become a rather small portion of the metagame ever since the rise of the eldrazi.

[drude1]

So, the arguments being laid out for the other Sol lands don't really make sense to me. First, against taxing effects, the vein still taps for one so you can pay your Thalia costs etc and not take 2 damage every time while they are beating you in the face. You can also advance your land drops against their Rishadan Ports without losing your City of Traitors. You could make an argument that the other two are better at hard casting force of will recurrently but how often does that come up? I guess I will continue to play the deck and see when there are situations that I really wish my Crystal Vein was a City of Traitors.

[genuine fugazi]

Sol lands allow you to jam S&T or Sneak Attack turn after turn when you have multiples on hand.

[drude1]

Sol lands allow you to jam S&T or Sneak Attack turn after turn when you have multiples on hand.
Yeah, this I can get behind to some degree, although I think I would still use Crystal Vein over City of Traitors simply for the reason that I really want to advance my lands and if you go for a Show and Tell on turn 2 and it gets stopped, then you are holding lands in following turns because you don't want to lose the City. I have been playing Painter forever and Eldrazi for months now and I like City in Painter because I can use it to play a Blood Moon and then play more lands after. It's just a necessary evil in Eldrazi but you end up losing it all the time and that is why you typically only see one or two copies in those lists because you want it to be the last land you need to play. This doesn't happen with Sneak and Show.

[LRats]

In your situation where you're casting a turn two S&T City is still better than Vein. You have to sacrifice the vein to do it (barring Lotus Petal), getting you 2 mana. With City, you can float the mana and then play another land on the next turn. This still lets you cast another S&T or use the mana to get around Thalia. If you sacrifice Crystal Vein then you are already behind the 8 ball waiting to build back up. Letting City of Traitors die is not a big deal if you have nothing else to do with it. You can also get the same situation as Painter with your Blood Moons.

[drude1]

The difference being in Painter though that you get to keep your City of Traitors AND play new lands after blood moon resolves. My point otherwise is that you tend to stall on lands when you are playing City of Traitors. The worst is when you are getting wastelanded and the only land they leave you with is your city. Generally, City of traitors feels much more like a one time use land than does Crystal Vein in this deck. I think I just need to test it some more and see what feels right. Overall though, the deck is fun to play. The delver MU feels a little iffy but it's fun to play with brainstorms and ponders for a change.


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[LRats]

Being left with only city shouldn't happen that often. The first land you want to get is almost always a basic Island.

[RStien321]

I had actually one game where I built up enough mana to hard cast Emrakul against miracles using the Crystal vein. Would not have survived the damage from ancient tomb and obviously can't play four city of traders. This is obviously a corner case but the point remains.


You could make an argument that the other two are better at hard casting force of will recurrently but how often does that come up?

Come on now. Hardcasting a 15 mana creature in Sneak and Show is a reason to play Crystal Vein, but we are ready to quickly dismiss casting a five mana counterspell?

Crystal Vein is a fine budget option - no doubt, but City of Traitors has been a staple in the deck for years and for good reason. Crystal Vein has been around since 1996, if it was the right call to play it, it would be in the stock manabase by this point.

This is a deck that, at times, wants to jam show and tells right into counter magic. This is especially true when faced with an early clock (Delver for example), or when multiple Show and Tells and/or Sneak Attacks are in hand.

Some scenarios:
Ex. Turn one: Lotus Petal, City, Show and Tell. Turn two, float two mana, play island, cast show and tell.
Ex. Turn two (with island already in play): play City of Traitors, cast show and tell. Turn three, cast another show and tell, Turn four, float two from city, play land, sneak attack.

These are definitely not corner cases, and are scenarios that come up at least once a tournament playing Sneak and Show. I haven't played as long or as much as some on the board here, but I've played Sneak and Show for the last three years. Crystal Vein is a one shot pony for accelerating out a Show and Tell, while City of Traitors can give multiple turns of two mana.


Yeah, this I can get behind to some degree, although I think I would still use Crystal Vein over City of Traitors simply for the reason that I really want to advance my lands and if you go for a Show and Tell on turn 2 and it gets stopped, then you are holding lands in following turns because you don't want to lose the City.

Why are you worried about developing your lands? Be more worried about being able to develop an Emrakul, Griselbrand, or Omniscience. You don't have to play out City if you don't need to, but holding back a turn to develop your lands is a good way to get beat down by a delver, or let your miracles opponent draw their relevant answers.