[Deck] Sneak and Show

[TLK]

Anyone dabble with the Hypergenesis variant?

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7959&d=245819&f=LE

[LRats]

Anyone dabble with the Hypergenesis variant?

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7959&d=245819&f=LE

This is an entirely different deck archetype. Hypergenesis is more of an all in combo deck. I have no idea why they are calling it Omni-show (well except that it has S&T and Omniscience).

[JPA]

Anyone dabble with the Hypergenesis variant?


This (click) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24068-Deck-Hypergenesis) is the thread you're looking for.

[mistervader]

Hit Top 8 in a 20-man tourney for a Gaea's Cradle. I unfortunately faced off against Eldrazi and Taxes in the Top 8, and worse, made key play errors by not using Sneak Attack EOT to keep my creature alive after New Thalia brings it in tapped. Grumble.

[Michael Keller]

Some food for thought: this past weekend I Top 4'ed a 2K with Sneak and Show (splashing two Omniscience). I used several copies of Firebolt in the sideboard, and it was quite effective against aggro-control decks.

[SheerBeing]

Here is a unique version of the Omni-Sneak deck that runs 3 daze and one-of stifle, misdirection, fire/ice in the maindeck: Click (link). (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13436&d=278876&f=LE)

[Ragdoll]

Howdy all. Any significant big changes to the deck?

The thread has been dead for some time now :smile:

[GoldenCid]

Congratulations to Tom Luckett for winning the SCG Columbus Legacy Classic with Omnisneak. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105624)

I'm not sure how effective Release the Ants without Firemind's Foresight is, though. :wink:

Here can i comment on traditional snaeak and show and omnisneak or there's a new thread for this last?

[Michael Keller]

Just Top 4'ed Mythic Games' Monthly 2K with Sneak and Show for the second month in a row.

I main-deck two Omniscience in the list, and also include a sideboard Form of the Dragon. List and match-ups to follow.

[AnvilOfCrom]

... and also include a sideboard Form of the Dragon. List and match-ups to follow.

Sick tech :eek: Is this only for the Eldrazi Matchup?

[Michael Keller]

Sick tech :eek: Is this only for the Eldrazi Matchup?

Eldrazi and any other deck that's predicated on pushing damage through on the ground.

[GoldenCid]

Eldrazi and any other deck that's predicated on pushing damage through on the ground.

d and t? Elves?

[Michael Keller]

I've actually kind of brought it in more so against Miracles and Eldrazi. Sure, Miracles has ways around it. But unless they find five power in the air (that actually resolves) by the time the card pushes big damage through, it won't matter. Eldrazi has a very hard time with it, but D/T and Elves I get a little leery about because they always seem to have ways around it. It usually comes out of left field and wins the game on its own.

[JPA]

Here can i comment on traditional snaeak and show and omnisneak or there's a new thread for this last?

Yes, Omnisneak is just another variant of Sneak and Show, it still contains both Sneak Attack and Show and Tell and I don't like the fact that tcdecks and other deck list sites often list it as "Omnitell", because it leads to misrepresentation of metagame numbers.



Just Top 4'ed Mythic Games' Monthly 2K with Sneak and Show for the second month in a row.


Congrats! :cool:


Howdy all. Any significant big changes to the deck?

The thread has been dead for some time now :smile:

No significant changes, but I returned to regular Sneak and Show and have been very happy with it. Currently 13-2 with this test list in 3 MTGO Leagues:

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/cantripcartel2r0cok7htd.jpg

[GoldenCid]

Why omni in side?

i think if you dont run it main, use sb slots for protection

[JPA]

Why omni in side?


It's an excellent sideboard card against any deck where your creatures can get answered or raced. I'd rather have 2 Jaces in the main deck at the moment.

[Zooligan]

Doesn't T1 Chalice on 1 from Eldrazi just kill this version? You can't always have T1 protection.

[JPA]

Doesn't T1 Chalice on 1 from Eldrazi just kill this version?

Since our combo is completely unaffected by Chalice on 1, the worst-case-scenario where T1 Chalice possibly "kills this version" would be if I kept a cantrip-heavy hand without any combo pieces on the draw.
Still, a 12 cantrip version obviously gets hit a little harder by Chalice than an 8 cantrip build with Intuition.

[Zooligan]

Since our combo is completely unaffected by Chalice on 1, the worst-case-scenario where T1 Chalice possibly "kills this version" would be if I kept a cantrip-heavy hand without any combo pieces on the draw.
Still, a 12 cantrip version obviously gets hit a little harder by Chalice than an 8 cantrip build with Intuition.

On paper, a list with a Cunning Wish package that can grab anti-artifact (or enchantment, or creature, ...) tech on-the-fly seems more resilient. Do you think just having more in on the combo and trying to out-speed the opponent is a better strategy right now?

EDIT: I have noticed in several lists with the wish package have Illusion of Choice from Conspiracy in it. What voting takes place on a regular enough basis that this card merits SB space? Or is it just instant speed draw 1 for :u:?

[DNSolver]

Whenever I played with this deck I played 12 cantrips including 4 Preordain. It's definitely where you want to be IMO. Some decks only have discard to disrupt you and having more cantrips lets you get out of discard scenarios pretty easily.

Also, in the meta right now I think that Miracles is the measuring point, and with a combo deck against the better versions of Miracles the faster you are, the better.

Finally, Intuition is pathetic against Surgical Extraction, which is widely played right now.

[nevilshute]

Recorded a league with OmniSneak - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4CThcPYqC0MNkZSPTiebT4w

[Zooligan]

Recorded a league with OmniSneak - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4CThcPYqC0MNkZSPTiebT4w

As a newb to the archetype all I can say is that these vids are great Martin! Hearing you talk through the win with Ants while their persist trigger was on the stack was super informative.

Thanks! I'd watch as many of these as you decide to produce.

[nevilshute]

As a newb to the archetype all I can say is that these vids are great Martin! Hearing you talk through the win with Ants while their persist trigger was on the stack was super informative.

Thanks! I'd watch as many of these as you decide to produce.

Thanks for watching, and I'm glad you like the content :smile:

[bdsaxophone]

So I have been testing the deck and playing some different events and I was wondering why the blood moon. I have been running this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13439&d=278899 except instead of 3 blood moons I am running two and running 1 trickbind in its place. I have been wondering where everyone brings it in. I have been disappointed with it when ever I tried bringing it in.

[Zooligan]

So I have been testing the deck and playing some different events and I was wondering why the blood moon. I have been running this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13439&d=278899 except instead of 3 blood moons I am running two and running 1 trickbind in its place. I have been wondering where everyone brings it in. I have been disappointed with it when ever I tried bringing it in.

From the Primer:

"Blood Moon: The best permanent answer to Karakas as well as an almost complete lock-out against many of the format's most popular decks (RUG Delver, UWR Delver, Team America, Shardless BUG, Basicless Deathblade, etc.). "

and

"How to beat Karakas
I assume everyone who played with or against Sneak & Show before knows how this works, but it might help the others.
To do this you need and Emrakul, it doesn't work with Griselbrand. If you have RR you can start it in your turn, with only R you have to wait until your opponent's end of turn. Then you activate Sneak Attack, putting Emrakul into play and enter your turn. You give your opponent priority in your beginning of combat step. If they bounce Emrakul then, you regain priority, and can activate Sneak Attack again to put Emrakul back into play. If your opponent lets you move to the declare attackers step and bounces Emrakul in response to the Annihilator trigger, they don't lose life, but you can just kill them on the following turn, because their board will be wiped and you get to keep Emrakul in hand.
The easiest way around Karakas is Blood Moon btw. "

[bdsaxophone]

Yeah...but with omniscience you don't need the blood moon to beat karakas and against the basicless decks they are typically good at applying pressure on turn 1 or 2 which makes blood moon's window of opportunity VERY limited.

[Serapha]

Yeah...but with omniscience you don't need the blood moon to beat karakas and against the basicless decks they are typically good at applying pressure on turn 1 or 2 which makes blood moon's window of opportunity VERY limited.

But you don't always have Omniscience on the table. And a turn one Blood Moon on the play isn't impossible. There are enough reasons and the primer presents quite a few of those.

[nevilshute]

Yeah...but with omniscience you don't need the blood moon to beat karakas and against the basicless decks they are typically good at applying pressure on turn 1 or 2 which makes blood moon's window of opportunity VERY limited.

The ceiling on Blood Moon is just incredibly high. A lot of bug decks cannot beat a resolved moon. I play the Omni build so beating Karakas is less critical but I still pack 2 moons just to oops-I-win against a plethora of decks

[RStien321]

Yeah...but with omniscience you don't need the blood moon to beat karakas and against the basicless decks they are typically good at applying pressure on turn 1 or 2 which makes blood moon's window of opportunity VERY limited.

This is a very fair point. Delver's explosive draws sometimes make blood moon a terrible top deck. At the same time you can get draws where Blood Moon is a "counter this or lose game" kind of card. Having an additional "must counter" threat is worth something.

HOWEVER, I will sometimes not board in Blood Moon on the draw, and just focus on defending the combo against the most aggressive varieties of delver decks. I will always board blood moons in against death and taxes. For being mono white, death and taxes really struggles to execute its game plan under a blood moon with 11 non-basic lands.

[Zooligan]

Where does Sneak-n-Show fit in the post-Sanctum Prelate/Recruiter of the Guard world? Good, OK, Bad, or Terrible? Wish or Wishless? Jace or no?

[JPA]

Where does Sneak-n-Show fit in the post-Sanctum Prelate/Recruiter of the Guard world? Good, OK, Bad, or Terrible? Wish or Wishless? Jace or no?

Unfortunately, I can't give an informed comment on that yet, since MTGO won't have CN2 cards until next month and I won't play in any paper tournaments until GP Louisville.
I imagine with D&T uprising in general, we might have to main deck some hatebear answers again. In Omnisneak we have Wish for removal anyway, in traditional Sneak and Show Fire//Ice might make a return (Jace seems too slow and is generally bad against D&T, will probably get cut).

[Zooligan]

Unfortunately, I can't give an informed comment on that yet, since MTGO won't have CN2 cards until next month and I won't play in any paper tournaments until GP Louisville.
I imagine with D&T uprising in general, we might have to main deck some hatebear answers again. In Omnisneak we have Wish for removal anyway, in traditional Sneak and Show Fire//Ice might make a return (Jace seems too slow and is generally bad against D&T, will probably get cut).

Right on. I'm curious to see how that all shakes out. It would definitely be better if the MTGO and paper worlds were consistent.

Along those lines, do you maintain up-to-date (at least generally, wouldn't expect you to give away tech before matches) Omni-Sneak and Traditional Sneak-n-Show lists in the thread somewhere? If not, would it be possible to add them to the initial post of the thread so they are easy to find?

[Kingbrago]

Hi everyone,

I'm playing in a GPT tomorrow and I'm planning of bringing Sneak and show to the tournament. I generally play miracles, and I have some experience with omnishow, but this will be my first time playing sneak attack. I will play this list:

3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Impulse
3 Lotus Petal
3 Sneak Attack
3 Omniscience
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors


1 Intuition
1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Release the Ants
1 Pyroclasm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Through the Breach
1 Sudden Shock
2 Blood Moon
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Echoing Truth
1 Kozilek's Return

It is inspired my Niels Molle's list from GP prague, with minor changes to the SB. First, what do you think of this list? The meta on the shop I'm playing is generally a lot of non-blue midrange and D&T, though for a bigger tournament I guess the meta should be more "traditionnal".

I was considering fitting some Gitaxian probe to compensate my inexperience with the archetype, but the list already feels a little ustable and I think preordain is the right choice.
I also think I'm very weak to hatebears (especially prelate) G1 and I was considering upping my removal in the side (a second sudden shock?), and maybe a Fire/Ice maindeck? I'm still reluctant on cutting cantrips or counterspells though.

I would be glad if you can share some general advice on playing the deck and on MU/sideboarding. I'm planning of going back a few pages on the thread to find usefull info.

Also a question I had: for instance if I'm playing against D&T with 1 sudden shock in the board: should I bring it in for G2/3 or leave it in the SB to be able to find it with cunning wish?

[quadich]

I too am curious which list is better at the moment. Right now i am playing the wish list. It has been a blast but cunning wish itself has always felt weird.
I rarely find scenarios where i am given enough time to tutor for an answer. Except for the occasional Kozileks return and in any game against miracles.
Prelate made me board in the sudden shock just to have an out once he resolves ( and there is a revoker on sneak attack).
Overall this and the Delver Match up, which never was stellar for SneakShow decks but is even worse for the wishlist made me wonder whether a List without Wish and more
interactive spells and a real sideboard wouldnt be better.

[HeartNana]

Hey everyone ;)

I don`t like the Omnishow Version of Sneak&Show so I am running & testing this list at the moment.:tongue:

SNEAK&SHOW:

MAIN(60):
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Misdirection
1 Fire/Ice
1 Impulse
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
SB(15):
2 Defense Grid
2 Blood Moon
2 Grafdigger`s Cage
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Shock
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Wipe Away

But I`m not 100% sure about the Sideboard atm.

greetings Elmar

[nevilshute]

Recorded some more videos for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4Dw_43jQUc7sGwFSRrL7UDF

[Kingbrago]

Great, thanks! I'll watch them later, really like your other videos btw

Envoyé de mon SM-A500FU en utilisant Tapatalk

[nevilshute]

Great, thanks! I'll watch them later, really like your other videos btw

Envoyé de mon SM-A500FU en utilisant Tapatalk

Thanks a lot :smile:

[JPA]

Kentaro Yamamoto wins Grand Prix Chiba with a classic 4 Preordain main deck and a somewhat fancy sideboard (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-8-decklists-2016-11-27).
Sneak and Show's first GP win! :cool:

[Tokugawa]

Kentaro Yamamoto wins Grand Prix Chiba with a classic 4 Preordain main deck and a somewhat fancy sideboard (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-8-decklists-2016-11-27).
Sneak and Show's first GP win! :cool:

Wow, 3 EE in sideboard.

[Chatto]

Would really like to read a report. Also, what is the overall meta in Japan?

[Tokugawa]

Would really like to read a report. Also, what is the overall meta in Japan?

Metagame breakdown on mothership:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpchi16/day-2-metagame-breakdown-2016-11-27

Hybrid SnT decks were classified under "Omni-tell" tag.

[RStien321]

Recorded some more videos for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4Dw_43jQUc7sGwFSRrL7UDF

Am really enjoying the content as I get ready for GP Louisville.

One thought on your reanimated matchup that I would love to see your feedback on. Did you give consideration to spell pierce the exhume to start? Your opponent had two mana up, so they either would have had to:
1. Tap out to pay the cost making flusterstorm a hard counter and effectively ending there turn while you have force backup for show and tell (they would have had double force so it wouldn't matter).
2. They could force spell pierce leaving two mana up. You can then flusterstorm as a hard counter unless they can pay two mana and have double counter magic. You can still hit them back with force pitch omniscience.

Love the work! Thanks!

[GoldenCid]

Hi all went to a 22 man tourtnament yesterday after 2 years without playing legacy. Took my "little beast" and did bad. 1-3-0 and drop.

Typical list:

4 Griselbrand
4 Emmy

4 Fow
3 Pierce
1 Fluster

1 Probe
3 Preordain
4 Bs
4 Ponder

4 Show
4 Attack

3 Volcanic
8 Fetchlands
5 Sol land
3 Island

4 Petal

1 JTMS

Side (advised very requiered)

3 moon
2 sudden shock
1 boseiju
2 REB
1 wipe away (?)
1 Fluster
2 Cage
1 Clique (?)
2 T. breach

Lost to: D and T 0-2, miracles 1-2 (lost to counter wall) and UR 0-2 (lost to counter wall)

Win to: Elves 0-2.

High rates of mull too.

One reiterative problema i had was to put together the combo pieces despite the cantirps.

Anyway im oxydized and keep working.

Advices?

[JPA]

I updated the primer (since it was three years old, parts of it were somewhat outdated). Hope you like it.

[Chatto]

I updated the primer (since it was three years old, parts of it were somewhat outdated). Hope you like it.

Thanks! I still have a lot to learn about this deck, and an update of your primer is really appreciated :smile:

[Darkness]

Hello everyone quick poll, I've been on Eldrazi for quite some time now, and I feel like the meta is not good for it going into GP Louisville. How is the meta for SnS. The top decks minus DnT seem to favor the archetype. I have played the deck in the past when TNN was new and it seemed super strong. Has everyone felt like the deck is well positioned to take down the GP. THANKS FOR ANSWERS

[Ruckusmh]

Hello everyone quick poll, I've been on Eldrazi for quite some time now, and I feel like the meta is not good for it going into GP Louisville. How is the meta for SnS. The top decks minus DnT seem to favor the archetype. I have played the deck in the past when TNN was new and it seemed super strong. Has everyone felt like the deck is well positioned to take down the GP. THANKS FOR ANSWERS

I have been playing OmniSneak on MODO for the past week or so and have some thoughts. I have certainly not played the sheer volume of matches over time that some others here have, but I am also considering the deck for Louisville and would generally consider myself a decent to pretty good player, will likely make silver this year with a couple of reasonable GP finishes. Have played probably 10 leagues maybe a few more.

Shardless, Eldrazi, and Miracles are all good matchups - you lose to clunky draws but when you come close to executing an optimal gameplan they have a very tough time beating it.

Grixis Delver feels 50-50ish, which is okay I suppose. The version that has been popularized by Friedman and Yu is a slightly better matchup, I think. Young Pyromancer is pretty good against us and Cabal Therapy can be a beating as well.

Death and Taxes is a lot better with maindeck Omniscience, my record is quite positive at this point but my impression is also that D&T is quite difficult to pilot so it's entirely possible my results are being skewed by medium-bad opponents.

Maverick style decks are mostly good, Reanimator is abysmal, I think Storm is better with Cunning Wish as opposed to without it, access to Flusterstorm and Surgical in G1 has been pretty good.

Right now I am playing a basically traditional OmniSneak MD, with the sideboard fluctuating but including generally:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroclasm
1 Kreturn
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Wipe Away
1 Release the Ants
1 Through the Breach
1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Intuition
1 Boseiju

Trying to find room for another Blood Moon, because it feels like it sways the Grixis matchup quite a bit. I was trying Grim Lavamancer before which had been clutch against Infect, but it was kind of slow against D&T and since they seemed to be keeping Swords in + Council's Judgment and some number of Pithing Needle I was feeling like it got shut off a lot. The third Blood Moon would hopefully help a little more against Infect as well.

All in all, I think the deck is.... reasonable? It's kind of clunky at times, but I have 3 5-0s so not putting up bad #s. What I will say is that my win rate is probably about 65-70% with it, but it's a little streaky. If you're running hot this deck is totally absurd, running cold you can lose to ostensibly good matchups easily.

[Tokugawa]

I updated the primer (since it was three years old, parts of it were somewhat outdated). Hope you like it.

Very helpful upgrades, thanks!

[JPA]

I went 12-3 at GP Louisville with OmniSneak (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542348), finishing 25th.

I made some changes to my old stock list, most notably going up to 4 Preordain (cutting basic Mountain and 1 Spell Pierce) and swapping Blood Moon for Defense Grid. Even more like classic Sneak and Show, I feel that OmniSneak needs 12 cantrips, it makes the deck much more smooth. Blood Moon is much more crucial in classic Sneak and Show, since it protects from Karakas, while OmniSneak doesn't care about Karakas as often, so I decided to add Defense Grid to improve the Delver matchup.
I like this new list a lot, two friends of mine finished 11-4 and 10-5 with the exact same 75.

My matchups were:

Rd. 1+2 Byes
Rd. 3 Infect 2-0
Rd. 4 Aggro Loam 2-1
Rd. 5 Stifle Confidant BUG Delver 0-2 (horrible matchup)
Rd. 6 UB Reanimator 2-0
Rd. 7 ANT 2-1
Rd. 8 White Eldrazi 2-1
Rd. 9 Death and Taxes 1-2

Rd. 10 Omnitell 2-1
Rd. 11 Esper Blade 2-0
Rd. 12 4c Delver 2-0
Rd. 13 Elves 2-1
Rd. 14 Lands 2-0
Rd. 15 Grixis Delver 0-2

[Tokugawa]

Congratulations! 2-0 reanimation looks awesome.

Recently, some successful SnS decklists replaced the singleton Mountain with fetchland. Any comments?

[JPA]

Recently, some successful SnS decklists replaced the singleton Mountain with fetchland. Any comments?

Especially with Jace main deck I can see cutting the Mountain in classic Sneak and Show. However, unlike OmniSneak, it often relies heavily on Sneak Attack and cutting Mountain makes Sneak Attack slightly worse (mostly against Wasteland / mana denial decks, obviously), while increasing your overall consistency and reducing mulligans (great hands often have to be mulled due to Mountain being their only land).

[biglongjohns]

I went 12-3 at GP Louisville with OmniSneak (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542348), finishing 25th.

I made some changes to my old stock list, most notably going up to 4 Preordain (cutting basic Mountain and 1 Spell Pierce) and swapping Blood Moon for Defense Grid. Even more like classic Sneak and Show, I feel that OmniSneak needs 12 cantrips, it makes the deck much more smooth. Blood Moon is much more crucial in classic Sneak and Show, since it protects from Karakas, while OmniSneak doesn't care about Karakas as often, so I decided to add Defense Grid to improve the Delver matchup.
I like this new list a lot, two friends of mine finished 11-4 and 10-5 with the exact same 75.

My matchups were:

Rd. 1+2 Byes
Rd. 3 Infect 2-0
Rd. 4 Aggro Loam 2-1
Rd. 5 Stifle Confidant BUG Delver 0-2 (horrible matchup)
Rd. 6 UB Reanimator 2-0
Rd. 7 ANT 2-1
Rd. 8 White Eldrazi 2-1
Rd. 9 Death and Taxes 1-2

Rd. 10 Omnitell 2-1
Rd. 11 Esper Blade 2-0
Rd. 12 4c Delver 2-0
Rd. 13 Elves 2-1
Rd. 14 Lands 2-0
Rd. 15 Grixis Delver 0-2

Thanks so much for all of your documentation in this thread. Would you mind posting your updated 75 that you ran at Louisville?

[DavidVanDerRaven]

Especially with Jace main deck I can see cutting the Mountain in classic Sneak and Show. However, unlike OmniSneak, it often relies heavily on Sneak Attack and cutting Mountain makes Sneak Attack slightly worse (mostly against Wasteland / mana denial decks, obviously), while increasing your overall consistency and reducing mulligans (great hands often have to be mulled due to Mountain being their only land).

Congrats JPA!
If you got time, do you mind sharing your list from the GP?
What are your thoughts on the classic Sneak & Show list that finished 8th at the GP? Is 4x Leyline the right call in the current meta? And no Blood Moons ?
Thank your for your time!

[JPA]

Would you mind posting your updated 75 that you ran at Louisville?



If you got time, do you mind sharing your list from the GP?


I went 12-3 at GP Louisville with OmniSneak (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542348), finishing 25th.


Come on people, click the link... :wink:



What are your thoughts on the classic Sneak & Show list that finished 8th at the GP? Is 4x Leyline the right call in the current meta? And no Blood Moons ?


The main deck is 59/60 Kentaro Yamamoto's GP Chiba winning list, so it's close to perfect.
I don't like Leyline, Storm is close to non-existent in the current meta, Shardless BUG is a very positive matchup anyway. Leyline makes a deck which is already prone to clunky draws even more clunky.
I'm surprised how you can run a sideboard without Through the Breach, Blood Moon or any bounce effects, but it seems to have worked very well for him.

[biglongjohns]

Come on people, click the link... :wink:

Ahh, I see now. Totally overlooked it. Thanks again for all your efforts with this thread.

[Tokugawa]

Come on people, click the link... :wink:

I don't like Leyline, Storm is close to non-existent in the current meta, Shardless BUG is a very positive matchup anyway. Leyline makes a deck which is already prone to clunky draws even more clunky.
I'm surprised how you can run a sideboard without Through the Breach, Blood Moon or any bounce effects, but it seems to have worked very well for him.

Maybe the SB 4x Leyline is just...budget choice over meta choice.

[wasabizod]

JPA, thanks for re-writing the primer. I know you've been driving a ton of this work and I appreciate it.

I had some questions for this group about the OmniSneak sideboard and sideboard plan. I am currently testing out JPA's recent list (2 Pierces, no Mountain) and overall it's been great. I'm still winning matches that I expect to, I've beaten delver a few times thanks to defense grid, and the greater card density has even helped with D&T.

Two questions for all of you:
1. How often do you find yourself using release the ants? I've had exactly one game ever when it would have helped, but I don't think I've ever wished for it and I wonder if that spot could be better leveraged? I'm tempted to bring back one Blood Moon in that spot.
2. I have a lot of token decks in my meta so I run Echoing Truth instead of Pyroclasm in the board (wish target, instant speed, yay) and I'm not sure if this is right overall, but it has the side bonus of resilience against loam decks (bye marit lage and chalice) as well as other creature decks where pyroclasm can't reach (eldrazi, D&T angels or wish for it in response to prelate). Have any of you had experience with Truth? Am I crazy for running it over pyroclasm?

Thanks!

[JPA]

Two questions for all of you:
1. How often do you find yourself using release the ants? I've had exactly one game ever when it would have helped, but I don't think I've ever wished for it and I wonder if that spot could be better leveraged? I'm tempted to bring back one Blood Moon in that spot.
2. I have a lot of token decks in my meta so I run Echoing Truth instead of Pyroclasm in the board (wish target, instant speed, yay) and I'm not sure if this is right overall, but it has the side bonus of resilience against loam decks (bye marit lage and chalice) as well as other creature decks where pyroclasm can't reach (eldrazi, D&T angels or wish for it in response to prelate). Have any of you had experience with Truth? Am I crazy for running it over pyroclasm?


1. If you cut Release the Ants, you have no way of killing at instant speed or through Ensnaring Bridge / Humility (although Wipe Away is an out to that). I would advise strongly against cutting it.

2. Pyroclasm is for D&T. If they have Sanctum Prelate on 3 it is very hard to win (even impossible when Sneak Attack is shut off by Revoker / Needle), so you want to board in 1 Sudden Shock (you still have Kozilek's Return as the most high-impact removal wish-target) and 1 Pyroclasm to have outs to Prelate on 3. If you want to have access to Echoing Truth, Wipe Away would be the obvious cut. However, I wouldn't advise to do that in an open meta.

[wasabizod]

1. If you cut Release the Ants, you have no way of killing at instant speed or through Ensnaring Bridge / Humility (although Wipe Away is an out to that). I would advise strongly against cutting it.

2. Pyroclasm is for D&T. If they have Sanctum Prelate on 3 it is very hard to win (even impossible when Sneak Attack is shut off by Revoker / Needle), so you want to board in 1 Sudden Shock (you still have Kozilek's Return as the most high-impact removal wish-target) and 1 Pyroclasm to have outs to Prelate on 3. If you want to have access to Echoing Truth, Wipe Away would be the obvious cut. However, I wouldn't advise to do that in an open meta.

Thanks! I haven't come across humility, but I understand the theory there.

What do you cut for Sudden Shock and Pyroclasm post board? 2 Spell Pierce?


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[JPA]

What do you cut for Sudden Shock and Pyroclasm post board? 2 Spell Pierce?

Yes. I might add a sideboarding guide for OmniSneak to the primer.

[vcaram]

played in my first competitive event with omni sneak today. beat shardless BUG and grixis delver 2-1, beat leovold BUG and aluren 2-0 and 2 ID into top 8. I then lost to infect in the quarterfinals.

Sideboarding against infect what do you board in? do you bring in defense grids? I didn't board them in because I wanted to interract with the pump spells

[HerrFunker]

Sideboarding against infect what do you board in? do you bring in defense grids? I didn't board them in because I wanted to interract with the pump spells

You are correct leaving out defense grid. I tend to board out my cunning wishes here as they tend to be slow and clunky and you shouldn't have to deal with bridge/humility. I also side out the singleton impulse. I then bring in any Pyro blasts, blood moons, and if you run any split second cards as wish targets since they trump pump spells, but aren't worth 5-6 mana it takes to search and cast them.

[GoldenCid]

I went 12-3 at GP Louisville with OmniSneak (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542348), finishing 25th.

I made some changes to my old stock list, most notably going up to 4 Preordain (cutting basic Mountain and 1 Spell Pierce) and swapping Blood Moon for Defense Grid. Even more like classic Sneak and Show, I feel that OmniSneak needs 12 cantrips, it makes the deck much more smooth. Blood Moon is much more crucial in classic Sneak and Show, since it protects from Karakas, while OmniSneak doesn't care about Karakas as often, so I decided to add Defense Grid to improve the Delver matchup.
I like this new list a lot, two friends of mine finished 11-4 and 10-5 with the exact same 75.

My matchups were:

Rd. 1+2 Byes
Rd. 3 Infect 2-0
Rd. 4 Aggro Loam 2-1
Rd. 5 Stifle Confidant BUG Delver 0-2 (horrible matchup)
Rd. 6 UB Reanimator 2-0
Rd. 7 ANT 2-1
Rd. 8 White Eldrazi 2-1
Rd. 9 Death and Taxes 1-2

Rd. 10 Omnitell 2-1
Rd. 11 Esper Blade 2-0
Rd. 12 4c Delver 2-0
Rd. 13 Elves 2-1
Rd. 14 Lands 2-0
Rd. 15 Grixis Delver 0-2

What impression have you got beetwen omniskeak and SandS? Is there any significative difference?

[Venomous72]

Went 3-0 tonight with a pretty stock list.

My flex spots are an Omniscience in the main and a Jace. 4x Spell Pierce and 4x Force of Will. Everything else pretty normal.

Round 1 - Lands (2-1)

This was against a buddy of mine who is very good with the deck.

Game 1 I drop a pretty early Omniscience off of Show and Tell and dropped Emrakul.

Game 2 he got me in a very fast Ghost Quarter lock with Exploration and Life from the Loam.

Game 3 he had a lot of hate out and kept me off of sneak attack mana (He had a Sphere of Resistance and a Chalice on one) but I was able to just play Show and Tell Emrakul and got there through a Maze of Ith after a turn or two.


Round 2 - TNN Midrange (2-0)

Game 1 I had a turn 3 Omniscience into Jace (after a little Thoughtseize counter battle) and that was game.

Game 2 I had a Sneak Attacking Emrakul that wiped out all his permanents except TNN. Played a Jace and Brainstormed and he was forced to kill it with TNN. Looking back on it, I probably should have just fatesealed myself to keep Jace alive, but my life total was at 7 so I was kind of in a hurry. I top decked Emrakul and won.


Round 3 - Turbo Depths (2-0)

Game 1 I had a turn 3 Show and Tell into Omniscience. He put in an Urborg off S and T. I then Brainstormed into the Griselbrand that I knew was on the top of my deck, drew 7 cards and played Emrakul to win.

Game 2 was the weirdest game I have played. I keep a hand with 2 fetches and an Island, a Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Omniscience, and Brainstorm. He Thoughtseizes me and takes Omniscience, then plays a Pithing Needle naming Griselbrand. I top deck a Blood Moon, and play it the next turn. He fetches a basic forest in response. I then play Sneak Attack and hit him for 7 (cuz why not) and then the game got weird.

I played a second blood moon, then a pithing needle (hexmage) and another pithing needle (Stage cuz sure?) and another Sneak Attack. He plays two Elvish Spirit Guides. In the meantime I hit him with another Griselbrand and went up to 30.

I drew land. That's it. Ponders were bricking, Preordains were shit. He had me at 8 off the two Spirit Guides. I Ponder, and shuffle. I draw and it's Emmy and I swing for the win.

Super weird game.


Overall I love the deck. It was only the second time I have played it. I don't have any Cities yet, so I will prioritize one or two of those and then probably a Through the Breach. I have one Omni in the main and one in the side, and it overperformed. Loved it.

[vcaram]

Has anyone tried a main deck boseiju? does it improve your match ups against coutnterspell based decks or is it just slowing down the deck?

[Venomous72]

Has anyone tried a main deck boseiju? does it improve your match ups against coutnterspell based decks or is it just slowing down the deck?

I am planning on trying one mainboard this next week since I only have one City in the mail.

I think it will help with all the Bug running around my shop, although last week I didn't have trouble with the one bug list I played.

[timmytaplands]

Could JPA or anyone familiar with OmniSneak builds comment on sideboarding for this deck?

For ex., do you usually board in cards like Flusterstorm and REB against the blue decks, or do you expect to tutor for them as needed with Cunning Wish?
I find that sideboarding with this version of the deck is kind of a catch 22, because bringing in your silver bullets makes your Cunning Wishes pretty bad.

Also, in what matches do you board out Omniscience?

Thanks

[JPA]

Has anyone tried a main deck boseiju? does it improve your match ups against coutnterspell based decks or is it just slowing down the deck?

It can be viable in a small, known metagame. I generally don't like it, since most counter-based decks don't have an overload of counters pre-board anyway. Post-board, when they load up on REBs, Flusterstorms, etc., it's much more effective.



For ex., do you usually board in cards like Flusterstorm and REB against the blue decks, or do you expect to tutor for them as needed with Cunning Wish?
I find that sideboarding with this version of the deck is kind of a catch 22, because bringing in your silver bullets makes your Cunning Wishes pretty bad.


Boarding in wish-targets is tricky business and varies depending on matchup. For instance, against D&T you should board in Sudden Shock (alongside Pyroclasm) to have more outs against Sanctum Prelate on 3. Wish still finds Kozilek's Return anyway, the highest impact wish-target against D&T.

Against Storm, I like to board in Red Elemental Blast to be able to counter their early cantrips. Flusterstorm usually stays in the board, since having access to three pseudo-4-mana Flusterstorms is much more effective than having access to one 1-mana Flusterstorm. I even considered boarding out 1 Force of Will against them to have access to 6, and even though I discarded that idea, I'm still unsure whether it might be correct after all.

Against faster combo decks like Reanimator, I can afford to board in Flusterstorm, since Wishing for it is usually too slow against them, while still having access to three 3-mana Surgical Extractions via Wish, which can also be too slow, but provide a strong mid-game disruption after I hopefully managed to fend off their early combo attempts with Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm / FoW.



Also, in what matches do you board out Omniscience?


Boarding out Omniscience is a viable strategy against most Delver variants, since they usually can't answer your creature once it hits the battlefield. That changes slightly against versions with cards like Liliana of the Veil or multiple Diabolic Edicts.

[Hank Zhong]

Hey guys - I participated in the SCG team constructed open in Baltimore this past weekend and it was an absolute blast.

My team came in 16th place out of over 300 teams (first time SCG hitting a cap?)

I was debating between U/B reanimator and traditional stock Sneak and Show, but decided to go with the latter because I expected surgicals and deathrites to be everywhere (I was right).

My record was 11-3 for the weekend (I didn't have to finish one match because my teammates both lost when I started my game 3).

I won’t do a match by match tournament report, instead I want to discuss sideboarding strategies for certain matchups and hopefully provide valuable commentary on the current metagame and how to approach it on a strategic level.

Here is the decklist:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111735

Creatures (8)
• 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
• 4 Griselbrand
Lands (19)
• 3 Island
• 3 Ancient Tomb
• 2 City of Traitors
• 2 Flooded Strand
• 2 Misty Rainforest
• 2 Polluted Delta
• 2 Scalding Tarn
• 3 Volcanic Island
Spells (33)
• 4 Lotus Petal
• 4 Sneak Attack
• 4 Brainstorm
• 1 Flusterstorm
• 4 Force of Will
• 3 Spell Pierce
• 3 Gitaxian Probe
• 4 Ponder
• 2 Preordain
• 4 Show and Tell
Sideboard
• 2 Defense Grid
• 1 Engineered Explosives
• 2 Grafdigger's Cage
• 1 Grim Lavamancer
• 2 Omniscience
• 1 Echoing Truth
• 1 Flusterstorm
• 1 Kozilek's Return
• 1 Pyroblast
• 1 Red Elemental Blast
• 1 Vendilion Clique
• 1 Pyroclasm

Here are the decks I played against:

Day 1:

Rd 1: Miracles (1-1) – this was the match I never got to play out
Rd 2: Shardless BUG (2-0)
Rd 3: Reanimator U/B (2-1)
Rd 4: Death and Taxes (2-0)
Rd 5: Miracles (2-0)
Rd 6: Shardless BUG (2-0)
Rd 7: Grixis Delver (2-0)
Rd 8: Miracles (1-2)
Rd 9: UR Delver (2-0) - Feature Match (Game 1 was insane, check it out!) Starts at 10:31:30: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/123121112

My record: 7-1, Team record 7-2, advances to day 2

Day 2:

Rd 10: Miracles (2-0)
Rd 11: Omni Sneak (2-0)
Rd 12: Omni Sneak (2-0)
Rd 13: Elves (2-0)
Rd 14: Grixis Delver (0-2)
Rd 15: Miracles (1-2)

My record: 11-3, Team record 10-5


Interesting trends I noticed:

The team constructed metagame skews towards blue decks – I only played against 2 decks without brainstorm and FOW in their deck! This means I only really had one ‘free’ win during the whole tournament (vs. Andrew Jessup on Elves). In a typical legacy tournament, we should face aggro loam, lands, and other concoctions during day 1.

The good thing is Miracles and Shardless/Leovold BUG were everywhere, which should be good matchups for us. This is further supported by the fact that sneak and show was the third most popular archetype day 2, behind miracles and delver.

It’s been a couple of years since I played this deck, so I was unsure about sideboarding vs. delver and miracles. I would love to hear thoughts and feedback from everyone, especially the sneak and show veterans!

SB plan vs. miracles:

-2 petal
-2 FOW
-1 Probe
-1 Emrakul

+1 pyroblast
+1 REB
+2 defense grid
+1 clique
+1 EE

Not sure if I’m suppose to bring in flusterstorm as well, or if EE is even necessary, but I wanted to be able to remove counterbalance if one resolves and have an out vs. containment priest. One of my miracles opp said I should bring in grim lavamancer in because they literally can’t win the game if it’s in play.

SB plan vs. delver (grixis and bug)

-2 FOW
-1 Probe
-1 Emrakul
-1 Spell pierce

+1 pyroblast
+1 REB
+2 defense grid
+1 flusterstorm

Both variants of delver are problematic because of the discard they pack. Looking back I believe I should probably side out a couple more probes/preordain and side in grim lavamancer, pyroclasm and kozilek’s return vs. grixis. They usually can’t afford to play around these and you just get so much time if you get rid of their threats. Vs. bug I’m completely unsure, since goyf doesn’t die to those effects, but lavamancer is probably still good enough to side in, and maybe EE as well, since it can kill goyfs.

Overall I was happy with the sideboard card choices, as every card was sided in for at least 2 matches.

The deck is very well positioned, with D&T at an all time low, and miracles being the most played deck, which also keeps delver numbers in check. My 2 losses to miracles both happened game 3, where I failed to hit a third mana source for 3-4 turns in a row. In games where I had no mana issues, I crushed miracles pretty handily.

Side note: I used to play 2 blood moons, but was never impressed with it, but if we sideboard in a ton of removal and grim lavamancer post board vs. delver, blood moon gets a lot better. Then we just kill whatever is in play after blood moon resolves to lock up the game. What do you guys think?

[hyp3r1on]

Hey Hank,

It's Aaron, your round 15 Miracles opponent. Pretty stressful games lol, as all 3 of us were going into Game 3 simultaneously. One of things I fear most postboard is either Boseiju or a heavy sbed creature plan from Sneak Show. It's fairly challenging for Miracles to win Game 1s and when stuff like Grim Lavamancers or Sulfur Elementals show up postboard, even if they're not direct win conditions - it usually buys you a ton of time as you don't have to deal with pressure. They're also good answers for Containment Priest. I'm also more liberal at blasting cantrips because I don't want you to find Boseiju. Even though I knew you weren't running Boseiju - because you mulliganed postboard I was more incentived to stop you from smoothing out your hands. I personally knew about your list because of the Day 1 coverage so I did leave in 1-2 plows as a hedge but obviously if this were a normal event, I wouldn't have done that. The Defense Grids were also pretty annoying too - I hadn't seen those in some time. Anyways, thanks for the most stressful team match of the tournament : )

[Hank Zhong]

Hey Hank,

It's Aaron, your round 15 Miracles opponent. Pretty stressful games lol, as all 3 of us were going into Game 3 simultaneously. One of things I fear most postboard is either Boseiju or a heavy sbed creature plan from Sneak Show. It's fairly challenging for Miracles to win Game 1s and when stuff like Grim Lavamancers or Sulfur Elementals show up postboard, even if they're not direct win conditions - it usually buys you a ton of time as you don't have to deal with pressure. They're also good answers for Containment Priest. I'm also more liberal at blasting cantrips because I don't want you to find Boseiju. Even though I knew you weren't running Boseiju - because you mulliganed postboard I was more incentived to stop you from smoothing out your hands. I personally knew about your list because of the Day 1 coverage so I did leave in 1-2 plows as a hedge but obviously if this were a normal event, I wouldn't have done that. The Defense Grids were also pretty annoying too - I hadn't seen those in some time. Anyways, thanks for the most stressful team match of the tournament : )

Thanks for the tip, makes total sense! I'm even thinking about running another grim lavamancer in the board - seems like it'd be good vs. miracles, delver, and D&T.

I don't like boseiju because even though it's insane vs. miracles, it's fairly terrible vs. delver, which is why I switched to defense grid. It usually baits out a FOW, while avoiding flusterstorm and pyroblast, which is more than good enough.

[timtonelli]

New lurker to this thread, so pardon me if I've missed this question somewhere (I promise I did look). What are the pros/cons of playing sneak and show vs omnisneak? Where is each deck stronger/weaker?

Also, I've seen a few recent lists playing Chandra Torch of Defiance. Why? Is there ever a reason to play it over another copy of Jace? Thanks guys!

[HerrFunker]

New lurker to this thread, so pardon me if I've missed this question somewhere (I promise I did look). What are the pros/cons of playing sneak and show vs omnisneak? Where is each deck stronger/weaker?

Also, I've seen a few recent lists playing Chandra Torch of Defiance. Why? Is there ever a reason to play it over another copy of Jace? Thanks guys!

Omniscience beats most hate cards, Karakas, containment priest, gives you outs to bridge and humility. You have to make main deck cuts for it and wish though. Normally 1 of each fatty, a sneak attack, a Petal, and some counters.

You end up with a much better D&T matchups, but are a little slower and a worse delver matchups.

As for Chandra, I think it is just immune to pyroblast.

[Hank Zhong]

I think the Omniscience version may also have a slightly better mirror match? If you have an omniscience plus emrakul, you can just jam the S&T without fear, plus cunning wish gives you access to through the breach.

I opted for the traditional version because D&T is seeing less play but delver is still everywhere. Also having an actual sideboard is nice.

[Karhumies]

New lurker to this thread, so pardon me if I've missed this question somewhere (I promise I did look). What are the pros/cons of playing sneak and show vs omnisneak? Where is each deck stronger/weaker?

Also, I've seen a few recent lists playing Chandra Torch of Defiance. Why? Is there ever a reason to play it over another copy of Jace? Thanks guys!

Omniscience is a dead card until you draw a SnT to go along with it and manage to successfully resolve it. Omniscience also requires you to sacrifice roughly half (or more) of your sb slots for a wishboard. This will make your sb construction more straightforward (less flex slots), which may or may not be to your liking.

On a positive note, it can win you a game without caring about combat (e.g. Ensnaring Bridge, Baleful Strix), without caring about creature prevention/removal (e.g. Containment Priest, Karakas), without caring about stuff that shuts down Griselbrand & Sneak Attack activated abilities (e.g. Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Stifle).

For more information about Omniscience, have a look at the mono-u OmniTell thread.

Chandra is a non-creature wincon / draw engine. We can't really protect Jace, TMS from opposing creatures to make it tick up 3->12. Ticking Chandra up 4->7, on the other hand, is more feasible. Chandra's -3 can also get rid of an opposing creature permanently instead of only bouncing, and +RR can provide mana acceleration for hardcasting & activating Sneak Attack. If you are looking for an alternative win con card other than Chandra, personally I would choose cmc5 Keranos, God of Storms over Jace, TMS into this deck.

[mjj29]

New poster here. I confess to not having read all 51 pages of this thread, so I apologise if this has already been answered. I have played other combo decks for a long time, including mono-blue omni before dig was banned.

I see that all the Omni/Sneak hybrids at the moment are playing cunning wish. Given you're already playing red here, how come noone is playing with burning wish? You can play 4 burning wish, move a show and tell to the board and play a wish board of grapeshot/enter the infinite for the win con and overmaster for wishable counterspell interaction. Kozilek's return does at least give you a pyroclasm you can wish for, but the extra cost on both sides worries me.

I assume this has been tried, but I'm interested in people's experiences. Cunning wish has always felt really clunky to me before going off, since you're going wish->intuition->show and tell and it's more expensive.

Thanks,
Matt

[Tokugawa]

New poster here. I confess to not having read all 51 pages of this thread, so I apologise if this has already been answered. I have played other combo decks for a long time, including mono-blue omni before dig was banned.

I see that all the Omni/Sneak hybrids at the moment are playing cunning wish. Given you're already playing red here, how come noone is playing with burning wish? You can play 4 burning wish, move a show and tell to the board and play a wish board of grapeshot/enter the infinite for the win con and overmaster for wishable counterspell interaction. Kozilek's return does at least give you a pyroclasm you can wish for, but the extra cost on both sides worries me.

I assume this has been tried, but I'm interested in people's experiences. Cunning wish has always felt really clunky to me before going off, since you're going wish->intuition->show and tell and it's more expensive.

Thanks,
Matt
One example: Cast 1st Burning wish for the Show in sideboard. Then that Show get countered. Suddenly 2nd/3th/4th Wish become dead cards.

When Omniscience is put in play, Cunning wish has access to victory in instant speed, while Buring wish could not. Another example: Show resolved, you revealed an Omniscience, your opponent revealed a...Reclamation sage! If you have Cunning wish in hand, you win; but if Cunning wish is replaced with a Buring wish that is a GG.

[mjj29]

One example: Cast 1st Burning wish for the Show in sideboard. Then that Show get countered. Suddenly 2nd/3th/4th Wish become dead cards.

When Omniscience is put in play, Cunning wish has access to victory in instant speed, while Buring wish could not. Another example: Show resolved, you revealed an Omniscience, your opponent revealed a...Reclamation sage! If you have Cunning wish in hand, you win; but if Cunning wish is replaced with a Buring wish that is a GG.

Yeah, I'm aware of the instant speed win. In this hybrid deck many times you are trying to win by showing omni then casting your fatty, which suffers from the same problem. Equally, wishing for S+T and it gets countered - well if you cunning wish for intuition for S+T and that gets countered aren't you in the same boat (but worse, because you just binned another two S+T?)

The question is whether the downsides of burning wish outweigh being able to wish on T2 (or even 1) for the S+T and win the next turn, rather than cunning wishing a turn later and then taking another whole turn to intuition.

[Chatto]

Yeah, I'm aware of the instant speed win. In this hybrid deck many times you are trying to win by showing omni then casting your fatty, which suffers from the same problem. Equally, wishing for S+T and it gets countered - well if you cunning wish for intuition for S+T and that gets countered aren't you in the same boat (but worse, because you just binned another two S+T?)

The question is whether the downsides of burning wish outweigh being able to wish on T2 (or even 1) for the S+T and win the next turn, rather than cunning wishing a turn later and then taking another whole turn to intuition.

I thought Wishing for a Intuition is more of a last resort, and you probably wish for the combo-kill out of the sb -as already said-. I never heard anyone play Burning Wish to save a SnT by siding one out. Have you tried a build with Burning Wish?

[Karhumies]

I thought Wishing for a Intuition is more of a last resort, and you probably wish for the combo-kill out of the sb -as already said-. I never heard anyone play Burning Wish to save a SnT by siding one out. Have you tried a build with Burning Wish?

Used to play Ur OmniTell before Dig Through Time was printed. T2 B.Wish for SnT gives away too much information to the opponent in game 1, making you a great target for spot discard and giving a heads-up for the opponent they should leave their countermana up because you are playing combo. In g2-g3, B.Wish for SnT signals to the opponent that if they are running SB hate cards to get into play from your SnT, now is the perfect time to tutor them into hand. Basically, I felt like B.Wish was "win more" vs non-interactive decks with the downside of giving away too much information for interactive decks (unless you have 5 mana for the turn, or 6 mana to go around 1x Daze). For the same reason, I disliked Personal Tutor for Show and Tell on top.

I ended up liking t2 Lim-Dul's Vault in opponent's end step for SnT on top because of the instant vs. sorcery, even though LDV after a resolved Omniscience is much worse than a Wish because LDV can completely stop a cantrip chain.

Additionally, utility cards for B.Wishboard are mostly not very amazing. Meltdown to deal with Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker naming Sneak Attack being a notable exception.

[Chatto]

Thanks, so basically you could say B-Wish not worth the slots? If so, you have confirmed my thoughts.

[Karhumies]

Thanks, so basically you could say B-Wish not worth the slots? If so, you have confirmed my thoughts.

Seems good in theory and when goldfishing, but always underperforms against a human player unless you have boatloads of fast mana / "all-in shell". Which is not this deck.


If you are looking for "cute tricks" to build redundance by lessening the reliance on successfully filtering for and resolving SnT or Sneak Attack, you could steal the idea of ramping into Combustible Gearhulk / Inferno Titan / Through the Breach from "Big Red". TTB being an instant would allow you at 5+ mana to try TTB in opponent's end step, followed by trying to Sneak Attack + activate in your turn. If the opponent has to e.g. hardcast their FoW at that point, that just might allow you to push stuff through sometimes. Combustible Gearhulk, on the other hand, has a powerful ETB trigger even from Sneak Attack or SnT.

Or just run 1-2 Blood Moon md to try to catch an opponent unawares if you think you have some md flex slots.

Big Red reference list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/571192#paper

[jwl3gg]

I'm currently working on building OmniSneak and Sneak and Show, how is the match up against BUG Delver and BUG Control, they've seen a rise in my current meta.

[Venomous72]

I'm currently working on building OmniSneak and Sneak and Show, how is the match up against BUG Delver and BUG Control, they've seen a rise in my current meta.

If you can protect your hand with a timely brainstorm when they go for Hymn or TS you can usually shape the game the way you like. Fetch basics and don't play Ancient Tomb/CoT until you have to as they will Waste it quickly. A couple weeks ago I got a quick 2-0 against BUG Control just with an early Show and Tell with Force backup, and against BUG Delver I won 2-1 with a turn 1 Blood Moon with Force backup, and then just carefully playing around Thoughtseize in game 2 and forcing him to use his counters on Blood Moon.

Blood Moon is a huge threat in that matchup.

[Karhumies]

I'm currently working on building OmniSneak and Sneak and Show, how is the match up against BUG Delver and BUG Control, they've seen a rise in my current meta.

Sneak Attack not getting hit by Abrupt Decay is huge for us in g1. We need to get enough mana to land it though, so we need to be careful of their Wastelands when fetching and thinking about land play order (leave Tomb/City for later if you can). If they SB decays out and you SB Blood Moon in, resolving a quick Blood Moon can win you the match because they don't typically run many copies of Golgari Charm in their SB. Deathrites can help them fight back to at least some extent, though.

BUG delver does not typically play Jace TMS in the 75 but the midrange variants play typically 1-3 copies in the 75. Something to keep in mind if you are going for the SnT plan.

It's very rare for BUG decks to run Diabolic Edict or To the Slaughter in the SB, but if you have a small meta with TNN decks combined with Sneaky Show, they can start including those in the 75 and that can be rough.

[Beatusnox]

Started recently playing an Omniscience build.
4 Show and Tell
3 Sneak Attack
3 omniscience
3 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul
3 Cunning Wish

As the main board "win con" package. So far I really like the main board though I've been thinking of some side board cards, and Chandra, Torch of Defiance keeps coming to mind as an additional win-con but every time I try to justify the slot I feel that it is win more.

Also, I currently run a Kozilek's return in the board as a, well, board wipe, but I feel the card I most need it to hand in Sanctum prelate is almost always on 3 anyway. I've had Return's second part come in handy one time only against Elves! Where they had two Arch Druids in play. Is returning to Pyroclasm the best choice here?

I also play a 1x Rushing River in the Board, but am considering either swapping it for an Echoing truth or just making room for the truth.

Current sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
2 Boseiju
2 Pithing Needle
2 not of this world
1 fluster Storm (only have 1)
1 Kozilek's Return
1 rushing River
1 Firemind's foresight
1 Intuition
1 Ravenous trap
1 release the ants


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[quadich]

Regarding the kozileks return i recommend you stick with it. The cmc 3 is a hassle but it is colorless. Playing pyroclasm only to have mother of runes give prelate protection from red is no better. I do however recognize that you will need something on a cmc other than 3 against death&taxes. Personally i run sudden shock since it circumvents any flickering or protection from them
Why are you running not of this world by the way? Sure it can deny a spell for 0 but emrakul isnt targeted anyways and griselbrand just draws 7. If you have an omni out, which would be the scenario where you even had the time to grab this card, you are better of just winning with release the ants.
I am also not too keen on pithing needle. The original sneakshow needed it because snt into fatty was common. The omni variant rarely does so and then needle only really pulls weight when you go SnT into emrakul. I also recommend a wipe away in your board since it serves as a catch all that the opponent cannot interact with. Also surgical is better than ravenous trap since it deals with reanimator a lot better while also being great in the mirror and against any other combo deck.

[Beatusnox]

I agree on surgical extraction and its my stupidity that has Rav trap over it.
Needle and not of this world were local decisions as DnT and Vial decks are really common. Not of this World hitting Karakas was my consideration to save a Griselbrand if I really him to stick. I have almost never used it to be honest and was looking at doing away with it.

I was testing with friends last night and they agreed sudden shock is a better answer to Prelate than pyroclasm is. As for Wipe Away, do you think it is better than rushing river? I really want echoing truth for tokens.

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[quadich]

Well not of this world does nothing against karakas. If you SnT your threat in, they will bounce it in your EoT, if you not of this world then they just untap and do it again. A good DnT player never taps his karakas against us at any point.
The scenario where you SnT a Griselbrand, cannot draw 7 and have your opponent cast a removal spell (which most people will board out with the exception of spells that do not target) is too much of a cornercase to justify running it. It also only excels in a scenario where you are missing the extra mana to get flusterstorm instead.

While i get that needle is decent i still feel that we are better of removing their threats to slow their clock down enough for us to just go Sneak attack or SnT into omniscience. I honestly prefer wipe away since its soo much better against blue decks. Sure sometimes there are two pieces you need to bounce, but how often does that happen? Usually you should counter the more bothersome piece or burn it away(in the case of DnT which is the only deck that reliably deploys 2+ pieces). In the case of DnT i actually feel like wipe away better than rushing river since they cannot flicker the target in response. As delver and DnT are our worst MUs and both run mana denial strats i am also not too keen on the kicker cost anyways.
It might be the lack of storm in my metagame but i rarely find myself opposing an army of tokens. If i did however, i would remember that echoing truth is a wish target and just get kozileks return since i am at 3 mana anyways ;).

[jwl3gg]

Finally got OmniSneak built! I've been working on it for a while.

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand

3 Lotus Petal

3 Sneak Attack
3 Omniscience

4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Impulse
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Defense Grid
1 Pyroclasm
1 Release the Ants
1 Sudden Shock
1 Trickbind
1 Intuition
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Wipe Away
1 Through the Breach
1 Firemind's Foresight


Pretty vanilla, but happy to finally have it. I was wanting a couple Blood Moon in the SB but couldn't pull it off.

[Optimus2k16]

Soo, i have played Sneak and Show at my local store the last month. New to Legacy i feel this deck is both a joy and a nightmare at times...
Went 3-1 last time, loosing to a UR Delver deck... Had not read this entire thread...but now I have, and I must put a big Thank you to all contributions you all have made.

Now i find myself in some online leagues...getting destroyed and matched up against BUG TNN/Leovold/Deathrite somethings...I just cant beat this deck...

I know I have alot to learn, and I guess I will get better the more I play...But this just seem like an aweful match for me... :)

Any good advices guys?

[pinkfrosting]

Soo, i have played Sneak and Show at my local store the last month. New to Legacy i feel this deck is both a joy and a nightmare at times...
Went 3-1 last time, loosing to a UR Delver deck... Had not read this entire thread...but now I have, and I must put a big Thank you to all contributions you all have made.

Now i find myself in some online leagues...getting destroyed and matched up against BUG TNN/Leovold/Deathrite somethings...I just cant beat this deck...

I know I have alot to learn, and I guess I will get better the more I play...But this just seem like an aweful match for me... :)

Any good advices guys?

The biggest mistake I see new players make with this deck and in legacy in general is cantripping inefficiently. I could probably write a 20 page dissertation on brainstorm which I don't have time for right now, but that should be your first step. Look through this thread and others on advice on how to cast ponder and brainstorm correctly, this will vastly improve your win ratio.

And if you're newer don't be afraid to take time and think about your brainstorms. You're often shaping the next 3 turns when you cast that card, so especially if you're new this takes some thought. Don't worry about pissing off the person across from you, they had to take it slow and learn at some point too.

Edit:: also with Leovold.dek and delver in general, generally if they get a brainstorm and a ponder with no shuffle in, I automatically assume force + reb/fluster + daze, and try to construct a hand that can beat that. Leovold turning off griselbrand also adds additional pressure, but remember that a 7/7 flying lifelink can still win the game as long as you can counter liliana. It is tough though, I've only recently learned this matchup.

[jwl3gg]

Went 3-0-1 at FNM last night with Omnisneak.

Round 1 2-1 vs Burn
He won Game 1, I Show and felled in a Griselbrand, but he Show and Telled a Sulphuric Vortex. Couldn't get him down fast enough. Games 2 and 3 I went off on turn 3.

Round 2 2-1 vs Omnitell
He got his Omni down game 1. Game 2 he intuitoned for Show and Tell at the end of my turn, and I Extracted the. We durdled a bit unti I Cunning Wished for a Through the Breach and wacked him with an Emrakul. Game 3 he Show and Telled, he put down Omni, and I put down a Griselbrand. He cast a Griselbrand, with it on the stack, I went digging and managed to find pyroblast, and blew up the Omni. Next turn I was able to cast a Sneak and hit him with Grisel and Emrakul.

Round 3 2-0 vs RG Lands
Game 1 he jumped out ahead. I Show and Telled an Omni unto play while he out in a Primeval Titan, with the Titan trigger on the stack, I was able to Release the Ants him. Game 2 I got another Omnidown, though he put in a Trinisphere, I managed to whack him with A Griselbrand and Emrakul after a bit.

Round 4 ID vs BUG control.

[SCALY INJUN]

Hi,

Has anybody posted a SB guide for the with the Omniscience version?

[jwl3gg]

Hi,

Has anybody posted a SB guide for the with the Omniscience version?

There's not really one if you're running the Cunning Wish version, you just bring in Boseiju or Pyroclasm when needed, usually in place of a Preordain.

[Jaytron]

Pretty new to the deck, what's the preferred piles for the instant speed win off of Foresight?

I thought it would just be Brainstorm/Ants/Intuition, but I've heard that Intuition isn't the best choice, and I should just go for Impulse/Wish instead. Why's that? Just scared of surgical?

[benk499]

Pretty new to the deck, what's the preferred piles for the instant speed win off of Foresight?

I thought it would just be Brainstorm/Ants/Intuition, but I've heard that Intuition isn't the best choice, and I should just go for Impulse/Wish instead. Why's that? Just scared of surgical?

Well Ants usually stays in the board so you can't grab it with Firemind's.

The usual process is:
1. Wish for FF.
2. Cast it to get BS, Impulse, Wish.
3. Cast Impulse trying to find Emrakul or Omniscience (or griselbrand against most decks).
4. If Impulse doesn't find the fatty take a search spell. I prioritize them in this order: Cunning wish (to get eladamri's call or intuition to find emrakul), ponder, preordain or another brainstorm.
5. Hopefully you've located your fatty. If so, cast brainstorm and stack it on top of the library. If not, cast brainstorm and hope to find a fatty to stick on top!
6. Cast Wish to get Release the Ants and smash their face.

On the rare occasion you completely brick your cantrip chain and don't find a fatty you have really bad luck. Then you have to re-evaluate the situation. Usually this mean wishing for intuition, getting emrakul and casting it but obviously there's some situations that doesn't work.

Note that if you want to make your combo deterministic replace your impulse with a split decision, and put eladamri's call in the board. Then you can FF for BS, split and Wish; cast wish and split decision it getting eladamri's and release the ants. Most players find that the combo rarely misses anyway though and the maindeck impulse is a solid cantrip when you draw it naturally.

[Jaytron]

Well Ants usually stays in the board so you can't grab it with Firemind's.

The usual process is:
1. Wish for FF.
2. Cast it to get BS, Impulse, Wish.
3. Cast Impulse trying to find Emrakul or Omniscience (or griselbrand against most decks).
4. If Impulse doesn't find the fatty take a search spell. I prioritize them in this order: Cunning wish (to get eladamri's call or intuition to find emrakul), ponder, preordain or another brainstorm.
5. Hopefully you've located your fatty. If so, cast brainstorm and stack it on top of the library. If not, cast brainstorm and hope to find a fatty to stick on top!
6. Cast Wish to get Release the Ants and smash their face.

On the rare occasion you completely brick your cantrip chain and don't find a fatty you have really bad luck. Then you have to re-evaluate the situation. Usually this mean wishing for intuition, getting emrakul and casting it but obviously there's some situations that doesn't work.

Note that if you want to make your combo deterministic replace your impulse with a split decision, and put eladamri's call in the board. Then you can FF for BS, split and Wish; cast wish and split decision it getting eladamri's and release the ants. Most players find that the combo rarely misses anyway though and the maindeck impulse is a solid cantrip when you draw it naturally.

Ah ok, I have seen Eldamari's call in the board in the past. But newer JPA lists with omniscience don't have it, so I guess people are just trusting in impulse.

Is there a boarding guide for Omnisneak around?

[chuckado]

It seems that the Omni sneak version has been putting up more results recently. Has there been a consensus that this version performs better than the traditional version sneak and tell in an open meta game?

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[neverhasit]

Have the cards and thinking about running straight sneak/show or Omni hybrid for when I'm too tired to play predict miracles or want to surprise people. Local meta is about 50% Miracles, dnt, bug delver or midrange, br reanimator or other fast gy strat.

I understand that bug delver, dnt, fast graveyard are unfavorable for almost all variants of the deck. Is that accurate? How do sneak/show or hybrid match up on a percentage basis against these? If we gun for them can we move the needle that much without gimping ourselves vs. the field?

[quadich]

so i assume the List without cunning wish is just better now? I'd guess that well will be back to 2-3 pyroclasm + sudden shock for the board as well as some decent gravehate.
JPA93 i summon thee to aid us casuals with your wisdom.
honestly i am clueless and i am playing the mkm series next weekend.

[Raticate_Tail]

With the banning of top we lose a couple things:
1) A positive matchup in the deck Miracles
2) The option of playing sensei's top against the grindy goodstuff decks

The first one likely has more impact on our sucess as a whole. It seems to me that we will likely see an uptick in a few different decks, namedly:
1) 4 color goodstuff (as the other "best control deck" that the miracles players can audible to)
2) UW stoneblade (as the closest deck in comparison from a card availability perspective)
3) Sneak & show variants (another deck with a similar card pool, and probably the best and most consistant combo deck you can play in an open meta)
4) Delver strats are a popular generic choice when you don't know what to do. I would think that the shift would be towards some of the bug based low instant and sorcery count, hymn to tourach/deathrite fueled variants. I would much rather play against these versions as opposed to traditional grixis, as their additional disruption (beyond the standard forces and dazes) is expensive and in the form of hymn, liliana and additional leovolds. Grixis usually plays cheap discard like therapy and pyromancer is a very potent threat.

That being said, where do we want to be in the current meta? As a whole, it seems like with the probable addition of many more copies of leovold and the removal of miracles as a deck, we definitely don't want jaces in the maindeck anymore. It is unreliable as a threat in the midrange fuckfest metagame and I see no reason to keep him around.

If you think about it the disruption we care about can be classified as hard permission (forces, discard and counterspells), soft permission (dazes and spell pierces) and permanent based permission (thalia, leovold, prelate and lock pieces). We are likely to see a bit of an increase in each of these, with slightly less focus on the soft permission (as delver should likely get weaker in the new meta). What direction do you think we take in the new meta? Against the blue decks we would like to play a slow game that revolves around building the perfect hand through an increased amount of cantrips, but this is slightly weak to leovold decks and other combo decks. Against death and taxes and combo decks we would like to speed up our game and jam the combo under permanent disruption by way of spirit guides in the main or try to contain their advances until we can jam our combo via additional permission.

Is this the right meta for traditional s&s, or omnisneak? Do we speed up or slow down? What does everyone think?

[Chatto]

Not sure if I'm correct, but I would go with fast combo and a sweeper or two. Some Lighting Bolts for Leovolt as well?

[Raticate_Tail]

Not sure if I'm correct, but I would go with fast combo and a sweeper or two. Some Lighting Bolts for Leovolt as well?

While lightning bolt addresses the problem cards in d&t (not taking mom into account), and buys time against aggro strats, it doesn't answer leovold cleanly, and is a stone cold blank against combo decks. I almost feel like it might be time to move towards maindeck pyroblast to combat the anticipated increase in leovolds, counterspells and show and tells. I don't think that there is any maindeck configuration of s&s that is going to be reasonably positioned in the d&t matchup, so I'd rather just devote a large portion of my sideboard to fixing that matchup and maindeck stuff that is better in general.

[Noloam_]

hi guys,

i dropped miracles (in paper) after the ban. I have now build omnisneak. i am wondering if the sideboard guide differs a lot, if you play the omnisneak build instead of regular sneaky show?

[Chatto]

While lightning bolt addresses the problem cards in d&t (not taking mom into account), and buys time against aggro strats, it doesn't answer leovold cleanly, and is a stone cold blank against combo decks. I almost feel like it might be time to move towards maindeck pyroblast to combat the anticipated increase in leovolds, counterspells and show and tells. I don't think that there is any maindeck configuration of s&s that is going to be reasonably positioned in the d&t matchup, so I'd rather just devote a large portion of my sideboard to fixing that matchup and maindeck stuff that is better in general.

Fair enough. So what would you change in this sb:

1 Wipe Away
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sudden Shock
1 Kozilek's Return OR 2nd Sudden Shock?
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroclasm
3 Pyroblast

[Raticate_Tail]

Fair enough. So what would you change in this sb:

1 Wipe Away
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sudden Shock
1 Kozilek's Return OR 2nd Sudden Shock?
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroclasm
3 Pyroblast

What I plan on playing is below:

MD
Stock S&S 51
2 Preordain
4 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Simian Spirit Guide

I really am focused on trying to jam the combo early.

SB
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Kozilek's return
3 Blood Moon
1 Defense Grid
1 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction

Effectively 4 sweepers versus death and taxes and elves is something we are likely to want. Ratchet bomb has the positive of coming in for matchups with thorns and I could see it as being good against leovold based strategies where we want to slow the game down, as they likely side decays out. Echoing truth over wipe away now as we likely don't need the split second clause with miracles out of the format, and it doubles as a card against storm. 2 red blast, 1 grid and 1 flusterstorm as the stack interaction is a bit lighter than other lists, but with the delver decks moving towards more hymn based disruption, I think I'm ok with that. 3 surgicals because I want to beat reanimator, and I think our other matchups are good enough to afford putting these in.

I feel like we want to approach the D&T matchup post board with sweepers, but I am totally willing to be wrong there. I am sort of new to playing the deck and have only played the MU a couple times. Lemme know what you think.

[Chatto]

@ Noloam: are you playing Cunning Wish?

@ Raticate_Tail: I understand sweepers, but I also believe in diversity. K-Return is 3cmc, which happens to be the same as SnT.

[Raticate_Tail]

@ Raticate_Tail: I understand sweepers, but I also believe in diversity. K-Return is 3cmc, which happens to be the same as SnT.

I think that this is a good point considering sanctum prelate is a card. I think, with that in mind, I would go -1 return and +1 sudden shock.

[Noloam_]

@ Noloam: are you playing Cunning Wish?

@


Yes i do. i also dont understand the trickbind. why whould you like to counter the abbility of a rec.sage/ashen rider, if you can just go for Firemind’s Foresight (with the same wish) into release the ants for the kill, while the trigger is still on the stack?

[genuine fugazi]

Yes i do. i also dont understand the trickbind. why whould you like to counter the abbility of a rec.sage/ashen rider, if you can just go for Firemind’s Foresight (with the same wish) into release the ants for the kill, while the trigger is still on the stack?

Here's what KjU had to say about Trickbind in OmniTell thread:

The main reason you play Trickbind is not to counter Flickerwisp, TKS, O-Ring etc. It's so we can win against decks that also play Emrakul (RtA doesn't work). Those matchups being; the mirror, Sneak N' Show, 12-post, Tin-Fins and Mono R Sneak.
In the mirror, unless Emrakul gets extracted, both players HAVE to win with emrakul, which makes Trickbind super crucial for countering extra turn triggers.
A lot of Sneak N' Show decks play Ashen Rider and MonoR always plays it. You can try to snipe it with a Thoughtseize but a good SnS player will save all his counter magic for that or leave it on top for a BS.
MonoR also plays chalice so they can actually lock you out of the game completely if you don't have Trickbind.
12-Post doesn't always play EtB triggers but I have seen and played against lists with Reclamation Sage, which again we HAVE to hit with Thoughtseize (and they play Top).
I agree that we don't actually need Trickbind for DnT, Eldrazi etc. but in other matchups it is absolutely necessary. Cutting it is a mistake.

- KjU

[Noloam_]

Here's what KjU had to say about Trickbind in OmniTell thread:
The main reason you play Trickbind is not to counter Flickerwisp, TKS, O-Ring etc. It's so we can win against decks that also play Emrakul (RtA doesn't work). Those matchups being; the mirror, Sneak N' Show, 12-post, Tin-Fins and Mono R Sneak.
In the mirror, unless Emrakul gets extracted, both players HAVE to win with emrakul, which makes Trickbind super crucial for countering extra turn triggers.
A lot of Sneak N' Show decks play Ashen Rider and MonoR always plays it. You can try to snipe it with a Thoughtseize but a good SnS player will save all his counter magic for that or leave it on top for a BS.
MonoR also plays chalice so they can actually lock you out of the game completely if you don't have Trickbind.
12-Post doesn't always play EtB triggers but I have seen and played against lists with Reclamation Sage, which again we HAVE to hit with Thoughtseize (and they play Top).
I agree that we don't actually need Trickbind for DnT, Eldrazi etc. but in other matchups it is absolutely necessary. Cutting it is a mistake.

- KjU




that still doesnt make sense. Why whould you counter a emrakull trigger if you could win on the spot?

how is chalice gona stop us? chalice on 3? if so, wishing for trickbind wont work either

[genuine fugazi]

that still doesnt make sense. Why whould you counter a emrakull trigger if you could win on the spot?

how is chalice gona stop us? chalice on 3? if so, wishing for trickbind wont work either

You're not guaranteed to win if they have Emrakul in their deck, since it will make you lose the clash on RtA. The Chalice part is not relevant to S&S I think, you can read more on that if you go to the original post.

[Yonthan]

what do you guys think about the matchup against Aluren? Seems like we can't just show & tell blindly because they could just put an Aluren into play too...

[Warbeast]

what do you guys think about the matchup against Aluren? Seems like we can't just show & tell blindly because they could just put an Aluren into play too...

Hi long time reader... Been playingbthe deck since a week before dig got banned... So in my local meta there are a respectable amount of Aluren... Now they do go off instant speed... I find bringing defense grid in and going off the turn after wins the game... Also with the wish build trickbind the cavern happy bounce trigger stops them while u kill them... If anything else... Never cast show and just resolve sneak... Done all these and they work 75% of the time but its your only real "out"

[Hank Zhong]

what do you guys think about the matchup against Aluren? Seems like we can't just show & tell blindly because they could just put an Aluren into play too...

Aluren is a positive matchup. They are a slower combo deck with less interaction. Show and tell into griselbrand is probably fine, because you can usually counter the first imperial recruiter with a draw 7-14 from griselbrand, but if you have the luxurious, it's better to wait to cast sneak attack instead. Spell pierce does a ton of work in this matchup.

[pinkfrosting]

Aluren is a positive matchup. They are a slower combo deck with less interaction. Show and tell into griselbrand is probably fine, because you can usually counter the first imperial recruiter with a draw 7-14 from griselbrand, but if you have the luxurious, it's better to wait to cast sneak attack instead. Spell pierce does a ton of work in this matchup.

Seems as if your metagame knowledge may be out of date. Aluren doesn't play recruiter most of the time anymore. They just hope to naturally draw into b-strix + harpy and draw into parasitix strix, which the deck is actually pretty consistent at doing, they realized the tutor was overkill. They also play 4 leovold, making griselbrand pretty useless if they flash him in.

[Noloam_]

i went 4-1 last weekend in amsterdam and won 80 euro. i almost run jpa's list from the legacy championship, except for the trickbind side (i run a sugical extra). Im now trying the mountain main.

What is your opinion about that? a lot of builds differ on this issue.

[Adan]

i went 4-1 last weekend in amsterdam and won 80 euro. i almost run jpa's list from the legacy championship, except for the trickbind side (i run a sugical extra). Im now trying the mountain main.

What is your opinion about that? a lot of builds differ on this issue.

It's pretty much like JPA93 wrote in the opening post here, you can play the Mountain if you expect a lot of Wastelands and Death and Taxes for instance where it is quite necessary to fix at least one red source for Sneak Attack. I played maindeck Mountain in the spot of a Preordain during the MKM Series last weekend, my list looked like this:

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Lotus Petal

4 Show and Tell
3 Omniscience
3 Sneak Attack
3 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Impulse
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

SB:

2 Defense Grid
2 Blood Moon
1 Pyroclasm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Release the Ants
1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Through the Breach
1 Intuition
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Wipe Away
1 Sudden Shock
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast

Nothing super fancy going on here. I usually boarded the Mountain out for some card that I found useful (like Flusterstorm against Storm for instance). However, I think ecoscuro's list on MODO is the way to play OmniSneak. I found myself often to board out 1 Omniscience and 1 Cunning Wish because this way, I feel like the redundancy of the deck is better without having awkward Sneak Attack - Omniscience draws.

ecoscuro's list as 8 payoff cards for Omniscience (6 Fatties, 2 Cunning Wish), 8 payoff cards for Show and Tell (6 Fatties, 2 Omniscience) and 8 payoff cards for Sneak Attack (6 Fatties and 2 Intuition that double as fatties so to say). I just don't know how this list would win against a EtB-trigger such as Oblivion Ring targeting Omniscience other than sneaking in a creature with Through the Breach or having Brainstorm, Emrakul and Cunning Wish for the RtA kill.

edit:

I ended up 7-3 with the following matchups:

Philip with Nourishing Lich 2-0
Kai with BR Reanimator 1-2 (super close, g3 he attacked into my Sneak Attack with 3 fatties, I then put Griselbrand into play who failed to find me an Emrakul in 14 cards, so I was dead. Would have definitely won otherwise).
Simon with Grixis Delver 2-1 (g1 I got rekt by GitProbe, Therapy, g2 and g3 were quite easy with Moon + Pyroclasm and Defense Grid respectively)
Igor with Leovold Bant 2-0
Patrick with Miracles 2-0 (he missed out on the SDT ban and stuffed some random cards into his deck instead. So yeah.)
Benni with EsperBlade 2-1
Niklas with some Bant Loam 2-0
Martin with BG Dephts 2-0
Robert with Storm 1-2 (g1 he kills me on Turn 1, g2 he kept a weird hand and I won via Through the Breach --> Emrakul, then at some point drew the TtB naturally again and flashed Griselbrand. g3 he killed me Turn 2 with discard backup. A miserable way to lose the Top8 slot, duh).
Daniel with Mirror 0-2 (absurd draw on his side. g1 he's on the play and has Sneak Attack with double Force of Will to resolve his Sneak Attack, passed the turn, forced my Sneak Attack and then Intuition'd for fatties. g2 I didn't see much going on on his side and decided to Show and Tell --> Omni. He puts in Omniscience as well, I cast Griselbrand. He has REB for my Omniscience, Force of Will for my Griselbrand, then Cunning Wishes --> Intuition --> Emrakul and kills me.)

I think I played the last game very badly, I rarely have any clue about what to do in the mirror match, especially since the OmniSneak list sideboards extremely awkward in the mirror. I want to cut Show and Tells, but at the same time can't really do so because it leaves me with a bunch of dead cards.

Whatever, a 70% win percentage is good enough for me given that I haven't piloted a blue deck for a while. I think Sneak Show is very viable in this new Miracles-free meta (Death and Taxes would have been a worse choice for MKMS).

[Karhumies]

I think I played the last game very badly, I rarely have any clue about what to do in the mirror match, especially since the OmniSneak list sideboards extremely awkward in the mirror. I want to cut Show and Tells, but at the same time can't really do so because it leaves me with a bunch of dead cards.

Whatever, a 70% win percentage is good enough for me given that I haven't piloted a blue deck for a while. I think Sneak Show is very viable in this new Miracles-free meta (Death and Taxes would have been a worse choice for MKMS).

In the mirror, whoever gets to drop Griselbrand and draw 7 first tends to win the game. Similarly, whoever resolves Sneak Attack first tends to win the game, unless they have no creatures to drop from it. Therefore, anything that can counter Sneak Attack (e.g. extra Spell Pierces, blue blasts) and anything that can turn SnT into asymmetrical effect (e.g. Wipe Away, in some cases Pyroblast into opposing Omniscience, in some cases Karakas) gives an edge when sideboarding.

You are correct that with imperfect information (no Gitaxian Probe, no Vendilion Clique), resolving SnT blindly/unprepared is a double edged sword.

Looking at your main deck + sideboard, you have the option of leaving in SnT and bringing in Defense Grid. If you resolve Defense Grid first, then follow up with SnT into Omniscience on the same turn (2 + 2U), there is a possibility to win the game on the spot, especially if the opponent does not have enough mana open to pay for Defense Grid.

Another option is to use the cantrips to get SnT, Omniscience and Wipe Away into hand. SnT the Omniscience and Wipe Away whatever the opponent put into play.

Generally speaking, you want to use your cantrips to set up a win from opposing SnT while also looking for responses to opposing Sneak Attack cast attempt & ways to resolve your own Sneak Attack. If the game goes long, you might be able to set up your own DG + SnT or SnT + Wipe Away. Unless you have a follow-up play to your own SnT, don't cast it because if things go wrong, the opponent is likely to win after their next untap.

[Nestalim]

Hello guys,

I see many OmniSneak deck list blooming on MTGO, and I'm more familiar with the stock list Sneak and Show. I have see the different list, but I have some trouble to understand how OmniSneak is not simply the new way to go. Except from some bad hands with Omni and Sneak and nothing else, could some players would have been playing both versions hightlight on this ?

[Noloam_]

It's pretty much like JPA93 wrote in the opening post here, you can play the Mountain if you expect a lot of Wastelands and Death and Taxes for instance where it is quite necessary to fix at least one red source for Sneak Attack. I played maindeck Mountain in the spot of a Preordain during the MKM Series last weekend, my list looked like this:

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Lotus Petal

4 Show and Tell
3 Omniscience
3 Sneak Attack
3 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Impulse
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

SB:

2 Defense Grid
2 Blood Moon
1 Pyroclasm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Release the Ants
1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Through the Breach
1 Intuition
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Wipe Away
1 Sudden Shock
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast




that is exactly my main from last weekend. i choose not to run bloodmoons. people keep in decay or search for basics game 2. i really love the boseiju tough

[TKTank]

Hello guys,

I see many OmniSneak deck list blooming on MTGO, and I'm more familiar with the stock list Sneak and Show. I have see the different list, but I have some trouble to understand how OmniSneak is not simply the new way to go. Except from some bad hands with Omni and Sneak and nothing else, could some players would have been playing both versions hightlight on this ?

I believe the main difference is that Sneak n Show goes for faster, more streamlined "gotta combo! GOGOGO" mindset while OmniSneak goes for a "What can I pick to answer this?" type of gameplay.

I'm currently finishing a Sneak 'n Show list, trying to go as fast as possible to combo-out while have enough answer for mostly anything the field could deliver on me:

Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lotus Petal
2 Misdirection
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
3 Spell Pierce

Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Sideboard
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Through the Breach
SB: 1 Wipe Away

MD Considerations

- Wondering how going from 3xIsland to 2xIsland + 1xMountain would fair
- 1xFluster MD to possibly have a better Game1 match against Storm, combo and alike, instead of going full 4xSpell Pierce...watcha think?
- 1xJace, TMS pretty stock...but I've been thinking and wondering of running quite a different setup...switching him out to SB and getting in...miss hothead Chandra, Torch of Defiance! Coupled with BMoon going in for G2, seems like she could deliver...
- 2xMisdirection...I really think this is underplayed. Might be my field with many discards, but I believe this to be really awesome often times doubling as FoW and disruption to enemy all the more with his own resources.

SB Considerations

- 1xLavamancer...I keep thinking 1x might be short to deal with stuff like Contaiment, DRS...not sure if 2 would be needed
- 1xKozilek's Return, 1xBolt, 1xPyroclasm...ways to deal with hatebears and such. Basically stuff that prevents from comboing out.
- 1xWipe Away...kinda of catch all exit to bounce Needles and all kinds of annoying stuff.

I still would like to find way in for: Trickbind and Vendilion, since the first could answer Karakas and alike while Vendilion would be another catch all for combos and interactions.

[RStien321]

Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lotus Petal
2 Misdirection
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
3 Spell Pierce

Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Sideboard
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Through the Breach
SB: 1 Wipe Away


I really like the straight Sneak and Show list right now. I expect elves and BUG decks to be very prevalent in the post-Miracles meta and would rather have speed and an easy to assemble combo. I also like Misdirection in the 75 to combat BUG's discard.

My current main deck looks similar to yours with the following differences:
-1 Flusterstorm
-1 Jace
-2 Misdirection

+2 Preordain
+2 Omniscience

My perspective is that I always want to win game one, and want to win it quickly and consistently. I feel Boseiju and Jace will be on the downward trend for S&S without Miracles. I want a few copies of Omniscience to beat G1 Death and Taxes.

My sideboard is a work in progress, but I have been trying to approach it from "what matchups really suck." Cards I currently am high on:
Sulfur Elemental - I hate death and taxes and the matchup is so rough that I think it may be prudent to have this narrow sideboard card
Blood Moon - Hits two of the harder matchups (D&T and BUG).
Misdirection - BUG hate. Also just a fifth FoW. Could easily see this going maindeck over Omni depending upon expected meta
Grafdigger's Cage - Elves will be better. Does work there. Also slows down storm and reanimator.
Pyroblast - Still awesome. Really need to hit Leovold and protects combo. What else can a person want?

Cards I'm no longer wanting to play:
Boseiju - Was our best land against Miracles. I don't think it will be worth playing as more maindeck wastelands exist (which I think they will)
Jace - Another great card versus Miracles. I don't want to play Jace with TNN and Leovold gaining more ground.
Pithing Needle - While I love this card, I don't think it does enough without Miracles in the format.
Defense Grid - Another card I liked more when Miracles was around. I don't love it against Delver decks that are all packing discard as well. I'd rather just play another Blood Moon.

[neverhasit]

Wondering about a few specific matchups for relatively stock sns. Say you have a list like the mkm t8 list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15418&d=293865&f=LE

For the sake of discussion cut a sudden shock, one cage, one echoing truth and add lavamancer, flusterstorm, ee so the board is:

2 lavamancer
2 defense grid
1 engineered explosives
2 flusterstorm
1 grafdigger's cage
1 surgical extraction
1 pyroblast
1 reb (split because of large surgical expectation)
2 pyroclasm
2 blood moon

How do you board vs:

Grixis delver, ANT, DnT, Elves

Current proposal:

Grixis delver:
I have been finding the pile of countermagic and discard that grixis is bringing in post-top ban tends to 2-1 out petals and forces into oblivion - I propose this and then making swaps according to what we see g2 for g3:

Out: 4 force, 4 petal, 2 probe, 3 spell pierce
In: 2 flusterstorm, 1 pyroblast, 1 reb, 2 pyroclasm, 2 defense grid, 2 grim lavamancer, 2 blood moon, 1 engineered explosives

Our plan here is to fetch basics and try to power through disruption with too many must answer threats while slowing their clock. Testing a bit and would be interested for thoughts, fow-petal has felt miserable and playtested worse as they have so many 1cmc or free answers. On this plan we keep all of our draw and minimize getting 2-1ed to try to be able to keep plunking down questions.

ANT:
Out: 2 gix probe, 1 basic mountain, 1 preordain, 1 sneak attack
In: 2 flusterstorm, 1 pyroblast, 1 reb, 1 ee

Most unsure of this plan, I feel like cage is likely too reactive as they can simply go for the line we don't shut off, that our md is fairly well configured to fight here, that people are running fewer xantids and we prefer fire/ice to clasm to deal with it because we can cycle when dead, and that if they go for empty we are better off staying streamlined and trying to kill them or race with griselbrand. EE catches empty, xantids, needle, surprise bobs, as well as infrequently makes playing two led before tutoring awkward.

Elves:
Out: 2 gix probe, 3 spell pierce, 1 mountain, 1 fow, 1 sneak attack
In: 2 grafidigger's cage, 1 ee, 2 grim lavamancer, 2 pyroclasm, 1 flusterstorm

Our counters are kind of soft - possible that lavamancer is too slow and we prefer another force to prevent glimpse. Probably -1 fluster +1 fow on draw.

DNT:
Out: -2 gix probe, -3 spell pierce, -2 fow
In: 1 ee, 2 grim lavamancer, 2 pyroclasm, 2 blood moon

Here I wish we had through the breach and the moons feel pretty meh. Do we need fow for specific haymakers? Might be better now that we expect lower cavern of souls count.

[ryscott85]

Anyone else not feeling the main deck jace, due to the abundance of creature matches lately? I'm seriously considering substituting it for a psionic blast (also pitches to force since it's blue 😉) to deal with Leo.. as the deal 2 damage spells don't cut it!

[FZA]

Anyone else not feeling the main deck jace, due to the abundance of creature matches lately? I'm seriously considering substituting it for a psionic blast (also pitches to force since it's blue 😉) to deal with Leo.. as the deal 2 damage spells don't cut it!

If you were that concerned about Leo why not just run a Pyroblast main? Seems a lot less narrow in usage than Psionic Blast (though I do love the latter, don't get me wrong)

[kellysandall]

How does omnisneak ever beat ashen rider? Is trickbind our only out?

[ridemachete]

Hello everyone, I am new to Sneak and Show and this thread. Have a few questions about the deck and sideboard strategies. Below is my current list.

Maindeck:
Creatures
4x Emrakul
4xGriselbrand

Spells
4x Sneak Attack
4x Show and Tell
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
2x Gitaxian Probe
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Pierce
4x Lotus Petal

Lands
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Volcanic Island
3x Island
1x Mountain
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors

Sideboard
2x Defense Grid
1x Pyroblast
1x Pithing Needle
2x Blood Moon
1x Sudden Shock
2x Pyroclasm
1x Kozilek's Return
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Echoing Truth
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage


I've only been to one FNM sized event with the deck (~20ish people). Went 2-2. Win against Food Chain and Burn(?) Loss against Thalia Stompy/Displacer Taxes (White eldrazi with both Thalia's and Containment Priest maindeck) and UWR Mentor/Control. Blood Moon seemed mediocre but maybe its because the only time I cast it, it was Disenchanted. Deck seems great but I am struggling with sideboarding. Most of the time when I don't know what to cut I just trim pieces of the combo.

Is it ever correct to board out Lotus Petals? How do you side against Delver decks? How much removal do you bring in against control decks when you anticipate Containment Priest out of their board? Any input would be greatly appreciated. I'm lost on sideboarding most of the time. Any links to general sideboard guides for the deck?

[kellysandall]

Anyone else not feeling the main deck jace, due to the abundance of creature matches lately? I'm seriously considering substituting it for a psionic blast (also pitches to force since it's blue 😉) to deal with Leo.. as the deal 2 damage spells don't cut it!

Rending volley kills him and every card in dnt

[Snapcount]

Hi guys - i'm new to legacy and i just finished my stock sneak and show deck. I'm finding the mulliganing a bit hard. Like, how aggressively should you mull for the combo?
For instance, would you keep: 2x island, 1 scalding tarn, 1 force of will, 1 preordain and a sneak attack against an unknown opponent?
What about 2 tarn, island, ponder, preordain, lotus petal brainstorm?

Anyone knows of any primers/guides that can get me started with legacy (othdr than this thread)

[RStien321]

For instance, would you keep: 2x island, 1 scalding tarn, 1 force of will, 1 preordain and a sneak attack against an unknown opponent?
What about 2 tarn, island, ponder, preordain, lotus petal brainstorm?

Anyone knows of any primers/guides that can get me started with legacy (othdr than this thread)

Hand One - Not a great hand. But against an unknown opponent game one I would keep. I have one half the combo, FoW for any turn one messes, and I have a cantrip to dig for the other half of the combo. Sneak and Show has so much redundancy that your cantrips do a great job of finding action.
Hand Two - This is a phenomenal hand. Three cantrips, with one being brainstorm, is awesome. Sequencing your cantrips is one of the biggest skills to learn in legacy. So much depends on what your opponent does, but I would likely lead with Island and Preordain in the dark.

[LRats]

How does omnisneak ever beat ashen rider? Is trickbind our only out?

You can Cunning Wish for Firemind's Foresight and go for the Release the Ants victory.

[Chatto]

Hi guys - i'm new to legacy and i just finished my stock sneak and show deck. I'm finding the mulliganing a bit hard. Like, how aggressively should you mull for the combo?
For instance, would you keep: 2x island, 1 scalding tarn, 1 force of will, 1 preordain and a sneak attack against an unknown opponent?
What about 2 tarn, island, ponder, preordain, lotus petal brainstorm?

Anyone knows of any primers/guides that can get me started with legacy (othdr than this thread)

Some articles/ podcast about cantrips.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-34-vintage-tactics-cantrips/ (not sure if the link still works)

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-depth-of-brainstorm/

[ridemachete]

What are your guy's/girl's thoughts on JPA's Grixis SnS list that 5-0d today? Seemed interesting. List below for reference.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-12

Creatures
4x Emrakul
4x Griselbrand
1x Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Show and Tell
4x Sneak Attack
4x Lotus Petal

Lands
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island

Sideboard
4x Defense Grid
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyroclasm
2x Echoing Truth
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Luthiereisfun]

I have a question to the more veteran players of the SnS archetype and those that play the Omni hybrid.

So I view cunning wish as a card that can A) win on the spot with Omniscience in play and B) grab silver bullets or situational cards that suit the game state wether it's an answer to a hate piece or finding a combo piece.

I've been trying to scour the internet for any gameplay I can of the deck and I notice that some people board in things like their one off wipe away or kozileks return etc..Can this be correct to side in more like a normal deck using the sb and leave cunning wish less flexible but still as a kill with Omni? Or is it more correct to leave the 1 off sb cards in the sb so they can be grabbed with cunning wish?

I know what I am asking is tricky because from what I've gleaned there aren't a lot of hard fast rules with the deck. It seems to be very MU dependent on what's appropriate for SB and how to approach each game.

Appreciate any insight! I've been reading through the pages of this thread and I know people have had SB questions about this deck before, but this was one I felt confused by.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hey guys, I'm picking this up with Top getting the banhammer. I am curious if the omni-hybrid lists could possibly be grixis, or is there not enough room?

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[Chatto]

Hey guys, I'm picking this up with Top getting the banhammer. I am curious if the omni-hybrid lists could possibly be grixis, or is there not enough room?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

See two posts above your own, gives you an idea. I personally think you'll get issues with space MD. JPA's list is pretty tight as it is.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

See two posts above your own, gives you an idea. I personally think you'll get issues with space MD. JPA's list is pretty tight as it is.
Yes, I tried it out. Seemed a lot more "1-trick pony," was wanting a little more game. I do like Thoughtseize over spell pierce in the mirror/Reanimator, and DnT, but pierce seems better against delver.

Edit so as not to double-post:

I guess I'm curious as to what will be best in a wide-open global meta such as GP Vegas: a sideboard such as JPA's grixis list above, or does that just play better with the black splash, and the more traditional U/r board choices are more suitable for an non-miracles meta?

Thanks. You know, this thread is a bit dead considering this is currently one of the fastest growing archetypes in the meta. Any reason?

[Chatto]

@ Secretly.A.Bee: this thread is pretty dead, jup. It's probably because this deck is pretty much 'solved'?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Perhaps it's solved as far as card choice is concerned, but I have meta-specific card choice questions, sb questions, theorycrafting dilemmas. And it's spelled "y"up...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[RStien321]

I guess I'm curious as to what will be best in a wide-open global meta such as GP Vegas: a sideboard such as JPA's grixis list above, or does that just play better with the black splash, and the more traditional U/r board choices are more suitable for an non-miracles meta?

Thanks. You know, this thread is a bit dead considering this is currently one of the fastest growing archetypes in the meta. Any reason?

Something I consider when building a deck is paper vs MTGO. MTGO adapts very quickly and is full of midrange good stuff decks. I love the idea of having 4 grids 4 leylines in the board. It is essentially a "I will not lose to Midrange" defense system.

If I'm playing SnS at Vegas, I will ditch the Omni build and go straight U/R. I'm better against wasteland, I can leverage blood moon, I can easily pivot to the control role against other combo decks, and I have ideal sideboard options. I want a deck that can jam and make my opponent have an answer multiple turns in a row. That's why Probe is falling out of favor and the nine flex spots are starting to shift towards
4 Preordain
3-4 Spell Pierce
0-1 Misdirection, Jace, Intuition

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is Omniscience not worth having for the DnT matchup?

How worried should I be about Grixis Delver being the favorite control shell of the format?

Is Blood Moon a very decent in this meta for this deck? I suppose if I'm worried enough to play omni (not the hybrid, just 2 omni main), I'm guessing blood moon is important, too.

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[RStien321]

Is Omniscience not worth having for the DnT matchup?

If you are playing in a local meta with a good amount of Death and Taxes, I would consider running OmniSneak or even just straight OmniTell.

Another thought is this: in my nine main deck flex spots, I am locked on 4 preordain, 3 spell pierce. I am running Misdirection and Intuition as the other two currently, but I would consider running 2 maindeck Omniscience for D&T in their place. I hate D&T. I construct my sideboard to have at least seven cards to board in for the matchup.


How worried should I be about Grixis Delver being the favorite control shell of the format?

I am not overly worried. One good thing about Grixis is they pack no way to remove a Show and Tell card G1. G2 they might have Diabolical Edict. Defense Grid is the classic anti-tempo card that would be worth a try. I need to test more against Grixis. I'm more worried about BUG Delver with Hymn.


Is Blood Moon a very decent in this meta for this deck? I suppose if I'm worried enough to play omni (not the hybrid, just 2 omni main), I'm guessing blood moon is important, too.

Blood moon can be great, but can be a trap as well. On the play, I'm loving it. On the draw it usually lets decks like Delver land a DRS and negate its potential. Eldrazi and D&T are my favorite matches for blood moon.

[Chatto]

I'm playing three Omniscience main, and loving it. It gives a very good MU against DnT.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

3 is a lot, though...

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[Chatto]

3 is a lot, though...

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It is, and I'm still contemplating if I should drop one for the 4th Emrakul. So far, the results are positive, though.

[Poron]

wouldn't Meltdown and Pyroclasm just be better?

you drop Sneak Attack and the turn later you Meltdown all his Needle/Revoker and then play your fatties.

IMHO Omniscience is great in pure SnT (UB) decks.

[Munchyman]

What are your guy's/girl's thoughts on JPA's Grixis SnS list that 5-0d today? Seemed interesting. List below for reference.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-12

Creatures
4x Emrakul
4x Griselbrand
1x Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Show and Tell
4x Sneak Attack
4x Lotus Petal

Lands
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island

Sideboard
4x Defense Grid
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyroclasm
2x Echoing Truth
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

So I recent sleeved up the main 60 of this deck. Did so after studying the list. My initial thoughts on the deck was why would JPA93 deviate from both the Cunning Wish and traditional version. He obviously has mastered both versions. I'd like to think he came to the conclusion that even though Sneak and show is a very strong deck it has a weakness inherently built into the deck. Using counterspells offensively to enable the combo just feels bad even though it's been effective enough to make the deck work. (I'm just projecting my thoughts into his head)

What always got me playing the traditional build. You always seem to have only three options barring a cantrip hand:

1) Gamble against a unknown opponent, jam the combo.

2) Jam the combo with a FoW back up.

3) wait extra turn/s until you have extra blue mana for Spell Pierce.

Replacing Spell Pierce with Daze cuts down option 3 almost in half if your trying to go off say turn one. To go off turn one you need minimum 3 mana. Island + 2 Lotus Petals or Lotus Petal + Sol Land. If you had the Island Double Petal hand. It would almost allow you to jam early show and tell. Daze just helps jamming faster in more situations with less mana available.

Thoughtsieze is replacing some or all numbers of Preordain/G.Probe. This seems like a good and or a bad thing. TS allows you to be proactive which fits the offensive counter theme. You do get a benefit of looking at opponents hand to see if it's clear to jam. You also get to take out the threat that would stop you combo or snipe a clock away if you don't have combo ready. Either way it could allow you a time walk effect. Which is almost like cantriping with Preordain or G. Probe, maybe slightly worse. not really sure which is better. Having up to 12 cantrips with possibility seeing their hand. Just to find out the worst outcome they have an answer so you have to dig deeper to finish combo but also to find answer which all takes time, turns and durdle. Or 8 cantrips, seen BG their hand and discarding counter/clock/disruption.

After goldfishing 20+ hands and few games in. I felt when I had the combo ready I would be able to jam more frequently without fear of disruption. I also noticed how the play differs more so by playing out like a tempo deck with combo finish. Rather than a find the combo and protect at all cost deck. Which I really liked. A Turn one thoughtsieze backed by a daze could be very deceiving for most opponents. I'd be forced to put you on some sort of delver or UB standstill fairy brew.

I really wish I had the cards on MTGO to test it out more. Maybe jam a few games with couple friends before local power9 event. That saying I have no idea if this version is any better. Than the traditional version I've been running. I do feel I have this version figured out on how to run just by the little time I messed with it. And it seems to cover some minute weakness I felt the deck had before.

Almost forgot. Going from 24 to 20 blue sources for FOW did make FOW feel a little lighter. Couple goldfish I'd have a lone FoW in hand and nothing to pitch to it. Maybe it was me knowing before hand I'm losing blue cards. It's still a very very small sample size and not even enough info to make a hard judgement. That and I'm no good with math.
The spirit guide seemed meh. I think it could be cut for something else like Fire//Ice.

Main deck looks like it's better equipped to fight Storm and mirror match ups. Which is always a plus and might feee up SB spots. I could easily see this deck converting into some kind of go bigger grixis delver strategy with SB.

[Michael Keller]

I personally don't like the Thoughtseize build. I think keeping the deck on two colors helps keep the mana-base more stable, where counters and other utility like Overmaster suffice just fine. If you're casting Thoughtseize to protect yourself from going off, it's going to require a toll on the mana-base to ensure you have a second red source to activate Sneak Attack that turn. I get it has different utility than cards like Overmaster and the like, but it just seems too risky.

That and Blood Moon is just a one-card combo this deck wants to play to crush unstable manabases, Karakas, Maze and Marit Lage shenanigans. I think it's fine, but I wouldn't do it.

[FZA]

Hello everyone,

I played OmniSneak, for the first time in paper, at a GPT yesterday. You can find my tournament report here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/6dz05q/top_8d_a_local_gpt_with_omnisneak_tournament/

I would really appreciate it if some of you who are more experienced with the deck could have a glance at it, or even just the sideboard choices, and let me know what you think.

Cheers!

[Phelix]

you could also up your blood moon count vs DnT instead of Omniscience. Its a little easier to resolve.

shuts off their mana denial as well as that bastard karakas.

[chaosjace]

Alright, I have been monitoring this thread for a bit, and putting a version of the deck together.
So, I know this comes down to what I want to do, but here goes some questions
I want to run at least 2 Omniscience, I do not want to run intuition or cunning wish, I am aware of their power but it's not what I want to do. If I run omniscience, SHOULD I be running one or both of those? Also considering some other lists I've looked at, why do they do 3 3 3 and 3 ? (Grisel, Sneak, Emrakul, Omni) when Grisel is so powerful? I can see cutting an emrakul or a sneak, but not him.
What build does Daze best fit in or is it just a preference?
I am not sure on my spell pierce/preordain numbers, maybe i'll do a 2/2 split.
Just looking for a pointer in the right direction, OR if it doesn't really matter that's fine too. The deck is powerful and consistent in all of it's forms (I believe)

My list is probably going to look like a fustercluck to you guys, but here it goes.
4x Daze
1x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain

4x Show and Tell
4x Lotus Petal

4x Griselbrand
4x Sneak Attack
4x Emrakul
2x Omniscience

3x Island
1x Mountain
3x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
2x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb

[Warbeast]

I am really close to this build aswell....

I did not play daze I stuck with 3 pierce a fluster 2 omni and 3 preordain....

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm on the fence about omniscience. I also do not play daze, I hated it when I tried it. I've watched too much film and seen it be terrible too often at the top tables for me to think of it as a better option than Pierce in this deck.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[Chatto]

I like Omniscience a lot.

Played a four-rounder side-event at the Standard GP Amsterdam today. Took the following list:

Mainboard
3 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand

4 Force of Will
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce

3 Omniscience
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal

1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Echoing Truth
2 Blood Moon
2 Grafdiggers Cage
3 Pyroclasm
3 Pyroblast

My mu's were:
2-1 Eldrazi
0-2 Storm (vs Jamie Westlake, one of the best in Europe, so no shame here)
2-1 Turbo Depths
ID Grixis(?) I'm not sure what he was playing, but we played one for fun, which I won.

Most epic game was vs Eldrazi, G1. I was down to two, so have to find business fast. I play SnT into Omniscience, play Sneak Attack, activate for Griselbrand, go to nine, draw seven, find and hardcast Emrakul, take an extra turn, and win.

So, 2-1-1, good for two playmats, two packs of sleeves, and a booster Return to Ravnica.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is spell pierce inthe board because you don't have another Flusterstorm, or do you like the 1/1 split in the board? 2 Cages and 3 Pyroclasm; expecting a lot of elves? Do you not have any Grixis delver in your meta, or do you like that matchup enough that you dont miss the Defense Grids?

I'm just gathering info. I appreciate the posts and info.

Edit: Why drop an emrakul instead of a Sneak Attack for the Omniscience slot? There are games I already lose for not finding my actual creatures to win with, it feels bad dropping a win con for an enabler.

Is everyone off Jace? I know some people play it for the mirror, so I thought I should ask if its relevance is deteriorating due to a steep decline in the UW Control area.

[chaosjace]

Edit: Why drop an emrakul instead of a Sneak Attack for the Omniscience slot? There are games I already lose for not finding my actual creatures to win with, it feels bad dropping a win con for an enabler.

Is everyone off Jace? I know some people play it for the mirror, so I thought I should ask if its relevance is deteriorating due to a steep decline in the UW Control area.


I think keeping the 4 Sneak gives you a better chance of a quick win, you want to resolve show or sneak very quickly, which is my argument for daze over pierce. BUT I can definitely agree on your point for dropping a sneak attack. Basically you are here to cast show and tell, and if you can't you hope to cast sneak, if you are going for a sneak cast you prefer the 5th mana to be for an activation. There will be times you have to use a mana for a spell pierce when you could have had a daze to keep a mana open for an activation... Just my thoughts.

[Chatto]

Is spell pierce inthe board because you don't have another Flusterstorm, or do you like the 1/1 split in the board? 2 Cages and 3 Pyroclasm; expecting a lot of elves? Do you not have any Grixis delver in your meta, or do you like that matchup enough that you dont miss the Defense Grids?

I'm just gathering info. I appreciate the posts and info.

Edit: Why drop an emrakul instead of a Sneak Attack for the Omniscience slot? There are games I already lose for not finding my actual creatures to win with, it feels bad dropping a win con for an enabler.

Is everyone off Jace? I know some people play it for the mirror, so I thought I should ask if its relevance is deteriorating due to a steep decline in the UW Control area.

1/1 split: yes, because I don't have two Flusterstorm.
2 Cages and 3 Pyroclasm: yes, but the Cages are also good vs BR Reanimator (along with the Surgical Extraction).

I dodged Grixis yesterday (I think?), but in the local meta I never had that much problems. Either I am fast enough or my opponent didn't got the cards he needed.

Regarding the 4th Emrakul: I am still debating if it is the right choice to drop the 4th, or indeed drop the 4th Sneak Attack. Afterwards, the 4-rounder yesterday, my friends and I went for food and drinks. We discussed what to drop, and couldn't make up our minds either. I never missed the 4th Emrakul, but the 3th Omniscience can be clunky from time to time. Will try a different configuration the next time, and see how it works.

I don't own Jace, so really haven't got anything relevant to say about that card. Don't know if I'll get some, because SnT is my secondary deck.

[Slacker1348]

Long time lurker in many threads. I'm most likely playing this deck in Vegas in a few weeks. Wanna get some feedback on my list + sideboard. I was originally playing the cunning wish package, but decided to drop it in favor of a real sideboard.

I'm gearing it to beat D&T and Grixis delver.

3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Polluted Delta
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Omniscience
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell

SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

what is the consensus on Boseiju? Could it be a better card? Maindeck Misdirection is something I'm trying out for the Grixis decks. Beating countermagic is pretty feasible, but beating Countermagic + discard is really rough, and that's where the leylines come in.

Open to suggestions on anything, and thanks in advance.

[Warbeast]

Ok so today was a legacy tournament for a piece of power... Had a bad day went 2-5 my only wins were vs ur delver which we all know is a good match up and BR reanimator which is a better match up than UB... My loses were to 2 grixas delver, a colorless eldrazi, a Eureka tell and a burn deck that too be fair I was not trying to win at that point

4 emrakul
4 grislebrand

4 sneak attack
4 show and tell
2 omniscience

4 force of will
3 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 preordain

4 lotus petal
4 scalding tarn
3 flooded strand
3 ancient tomb
3 volcanic island
3 island
2 city of traitors
1 mountain


SB

2 blood moon
1 boseju, who shelters all
1 defense grid
1 flusterstorm
1 grim lavamancer
2 grafdigger's cage
1 jace, the mind sculpture
1 kozilek's return
1 pyroblast
1 pyroclasm
1 red elemental blast
1 vedillion clique
1 wipe away


.... Was .y board right... Turned out to be a lot of grixas in the room. How I boarded vs grixas was...

Out

2 omniscience
3 preordain
2 spell pierce
1 grislebrand
1 louts petal

In

2 blood moon
1 defense grid
1 flusterstorm
1 boseju
1 grim lavamancer
1 pyroblast
1 pyroclasm
1 red elemental blast.


... Was this correct?

[Warbeast]

Long time lurker in many threads. I'm most likely playing this deck in Vegas in a few weeks. Wanna get some feedback on my list + sideboard. I was originally playing the cunning wish package, but decided to drop it in favor of a real sideboard.

I'm gearing it to beat D&T and Grixis delver.

3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Polluted Delta
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Omniscience
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell

SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

what is the consensus on Boseiju? Could it be a better card? Maindeck Misdirection is something I'm trying out for the Grixis decks. Beating countermagic is pretty feasible, but beating Countermagic + discard is really rough, and that's where the leylines come in.

Open to suggestions on anything, and thanks in advance.

So I firmly believe you want boseju still post miracle's specifically for delver. The primer says to play it as the 20th land vs delver, which I believe is right

[demonlord340]

Hey JPA, I've been following your results on MODO and it looks like you've been experimenting a bunch. If you don't mind sharing, what is currently the "best" build for the deck?

[chaosjace]

I would hate to rely on boseiju since delver packs wastelands. Especially if they expect it after SBing.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm already playing 2x Defense Grid in the side. This would be in place of one of the two Flusterstorm or two Pyroblast currently in the board.

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[Warbeast]

I would hate to rely on boseiju since delver packs wastelands. Especially if they expect it after SBing.

Its not that you are relying on it... They are already trying to slow you down by wasting deals and sol lands... The goal I believe is the reduce the number of waste they have.... If they waste you twislce then your boseju has a better chance at uncapping... You also don't want to get wasted out the game... But I find that even d grid isn't enough to fight them... I dedicated a good 10 cards innthe board to stand a chance, see cut through the breech to give me some sort of edge that we don't really have.... I think it may be right to have surgical boarded in vs delver to get their waste and other disruption. Kinda like a super gitaxian probe now you know how to play against them...they cant beat resolved. Sneak so maybe the goal is to force the first wasteland then remove them all and fight for it.... Its a tjeroy for mow but it might work

[Warbeast]

I'm already playing 2x Defense Grid in the side. This would be in place of one of the two Flusterstorm or two Pyroblast currently in the board.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

So I know you need them and you really want to see them in your opening hand but... Maybe cut a leylines... I don't like this plan on the base fact outside of showing it into play, showing omni or holding back 2 petals you cant cast it.... So you dilute your deck to just avoid discard and burn... I might be wrong but that's just how I feel on it

[Chatto]

I agree with Warbeast here: Leylines are awesome, but having to mull a good opening-hand, or even a topdeck late game, is not what you want.

[Slacker1348]

Alright, so if leyline is not the way to go, here's what I've come up with. Also, what do you think of Sin Prodder in the Sideboard? is it just too cute, or can it actually serve a purpose in our grixis match g2/3?

1 Boseiju, who shelters All
3 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Enginneered Explosives
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Pyroclasm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wipe Away
2 ????

[Warbeast]

Alright, so if leyline is not the way to go, here's what I've come up with. Also, what do you think of Sin Prodder in the Sideboard? is it just too cute, or can it actually serve a purpose in our grixis match g2/3?

1 Boseiju, who shelters All
3 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Enginneered Explosives
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Pyroclasm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wipe Away
2 ????

So I think maybe we try to match value vs grixis... So maybe just maybe. We go back to an old sideboard tech that we had in the old omnitell list when dig was around... Young pyromancer so when battle back with counters while getting value of pyromancer. Game 2 they might just have bolts in but they board in edicts so this not only gives us a clock but it also makes 2 cards blanks... And if they DO manage to invasive surgery out show and tell then we just go on the protect the sneak and pyromancer plan.....


Also I think you should also have 2 grids in your board swell as counters and boseju... They hate boseju more cause its inevitably. So the goal is to force their wastelands while preserving your life total..

So for your board I would play it as is minus a blood moon and an explosives and ass 2 young pyromancer and 2 d grids... That's just my opinion.

Sin prouder I think isn't what we want. It POTENTIALLY draws us more cards all they will do is let us draw the erakuls and grislebrands and omni if you have them thennmill the shows sneaks anklet you fight for nothing. If drawing cards is what you want I think you want a walker maybe like jace or new chandra

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Does anyone have a boarding guide/article ,or a link to one, or know of a page here in the thread with a good one on it? I need guidance...

Edit: I was wondering how people feel about one or two Vendilion Clique in the board, like peezy was suggested.

[Warbeast]

Does anyone have a boarding guide/article ,or a link to one, or know of a page here in the thread with a good one on it? I need guidance...

Edit: I was wondering how people feel about one or two Vendilion Clique in the board, like peezy was suggested.

I don't have one really I just use the primer as a guideline and try to stick to it as close as I can..

Clique is fine good vs the combo match can be used vs delver as a pseudo probe/thoughtseize to see if coast is clear... Helps vs reanimator... And a cheap threat... I think it or peezy are both good option... So I think it is preference based

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I have day 2'd GP Vegas with a 6-3 record with Sneak and Show. I need advice on how to board and play against (strategy) delver. specifically, BUG, as in Team America. Is that just a bad matchup or is there a way to play this one? I've been playing around Stifle and Daze, it's been fine. Maybe I just had decision fatigue, but it felt harder than the Grixis did...

Edit: placed 466th. Not bad for first tourney ever with it.

[Karhumies]

Invocation Omniscience:

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/6i2na2/hou_omniscience_invocation/

[Ephemeron]

I have day 2'd GP Vegas with a 6-3 record with Sneak and Show. I need advice on how to board and play against (strategy) delver. specifically, BUG, as in Team America. Is that just a bad matchup or is there a way to play this one? I've been playing around Stifle and Daze, it's been fine. Maybe I just had decision fatigue, but it felt harder than the Grixis did...

Edit: placed 466th. Not bad for first tourney ever with it.

I've always found delver with discard like Thoughtseize and Hymn is worse than the soft permission heavy builds like RUG and Grixis. Leyline is kinda a hit or miss card, whereas Defense Grid is a great answer against delver countermagic.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Defense Grid works against your own protection package, though.

I'll post my list, I haven't had any time to change it. Maybe you could give your opinion as to what comes in and what goes out.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[arj]

I'm wondering about Gitaxian Probe. I know that space is tight, but it seems to be that the information one gleans this way is really helpful especially when not running black and Thoughtseize. Thoughts?

[Adan]

I have day 2'd GP Vegas with a 6-3 record with Sneak and Show. I need advice on how to board and play against (strategy) delver. specifically, BUG, as in Team America. Is that just a bad matchup or is there a way to play this one? I've been playing around Stifle and Daze, it's been fine. Maybe I just had decision fatigue, but it felt harder than the Grixis did...

Edit: placed 466th. Not bad for first tourney ever with it.

There's a way to play it, but it's not a pleasant matchup indeed. I usually board out Spell Pierces as you already need to play around Daze in general, and having Spell Pierce as a reliable backup is mana inefficient. Blood Moon in general is a beating for most Delvers as is Defense Grid (another reason to trim down all 1-Mana counters, except for Pyroblasts as they can kill Delvers which can be huge).

But against the BUG variant with Hymn and Liliana of the Veil, it is recommended to board in Flusterstorm and Blood Moon. In general, the Delver matchup postboard revolves more around sticking an important threat to the board that usually cuts down any interaction with you (Moon, Grid) or wins (Sneak Attack which can't be Decay'd, SnT --> Omni/Grisel/Emrakul). You are not necessarily trying to win counterwars here (the modern Delver decks aren't really capable of doing that anyway).

Pyroclasm is also a very good card against Delver. It hits DRS, Delver, YP and his tokens, so pretty much everything except Gurmag Angler or True Name Nemesis. But Nemesis is not a good card in that MU and is likely to get boarded out and Gurmag Angler also doesn't really come down really early I'd estimate.

[GoblinZ]

Does anyone have a boarding guide/article ,or a link to one, or know of a page here in the thread with a good one on it? I need guidance...

Edit: I was wondering how people feel about one or two Vendilion Clique in the board, like peezy was suggested.

I once played Clique in the SB, it does well in a combo heavy meta.

[Don D]

Hi fellow SnS players :-)

I'm playing the deck on-line and it's super fun AND super powerful! The side board and the two flex slots are changing consistently. Simian Spirit Guide, Flusterstorm and Intuition were all tested in the flex slots. And for the flex slots I'm looking for some advice. I didn't test Jace, Probe and Omni. So my question is which cards would you put in the flex slots if you expect lots of grixis delver and d'n't? Thx

[GoblinZ]

Hi fellow SnS players :-)

I'm playing the deck on-line and it's super fun AND super powerful! The side board and the two flex slots are changing consistently. Simian Spirit Guide, Flusterstorm and Intuition were all tested in the flex slots. And for the flex slots I'm looking for some advice. I didn't test Jace, Probe and Omni. So my question is which cards would you put in the flex slots if you expect lots of grixis delver and d'n't? Thx

I now play one simian, two daze and one flusterstorm, both daze and simian are good against delver deck.

I play two omniscience in the sb for Dnt.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

How many Spell Pierce do you run, 3?

Also, Blood Moon is situationally good against both Grixis and DnT.

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[Don D]

I now play one simian, two daze and one flusterstorm, both daze and simian are good against delver deck.

I play two omniscience in the sb for Dnt.

The simians were OKish in my testing. Powering out an early Sneak Attack or enabling to drop an Emrakul after a sneaked Griselbrand were the best lines it enabled.

I don't like daze in this deck (although I love it in Delver strategies) because setting back the mana when the deck wants to win with a 3CC/4CC spell.

Flusterstorm is great against delver but sucks big time against DnT.

Is omniscience good enough without the whole cunning wish package? Please let me know how you play it.

[Don D]

How many Spell Pierce do you run, 3?

Also, Blood Moon is situationally good against both Grixis and DnT.

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I'm running 4 Pierce. I forgot in my post to mention, that I tested Blood Moon (x2) main in the flex slots. It has a huge variance, depending what deck you face. It can completely cripple a deck or do almost nothing. I can see testing it again, but only as a 1-of main with two more copies in the board.

[GoblinZ]

The simians were OKish in my testing. Powering out an early Sneak Attack or enabling to drop an Emrakul after a sneaked Griselbrand were the best lines it enabled.

I don't like daze in this deck (although I love it in Delver strategies) because setting back the mana when the deck wants to win with a 3CC/4CC spell.

Flusterstorm is great against delver but sucks big time against DnT.

Is omniscience good enough without the whole cunning wish package? Please let me know how you play it.

I play omniscience exclusively for the mirror and Dnt, maybe I wanna it in the storm match-up because showing into an emrakul is often not enough.

As for daze, against delver, I think more often I want to have one on my combo turn to protect my combo, and countering a turn one delver may buy us a lot of time.

[Don D]

I play omniscience exclusively for the mirror and Dnt, maybe I wanna it in the storm match-up because showing into an emrakul is often not enough.

As for daze, against delver, I think more often I want to have one on my combo turn to protect my combo, and countering a turn one delver may buy us a lot of time.

Thanks! I think I'll put two omniscience in my flex slots for some test games to get a feel for it.

EDIT2: The two omnisciences are now part of the SB

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play 2 Omni main, but no wishes or anything else, I really like them. Blood moon is a 2-of in my board, there are very few metas where I would play Moon in the main.

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[Ephemeron]

General question, how much D&T and Maverick would have to be in a meta before you moved to at least one Kozilek's Return over Pyroclasm? I'd never do it online, but I feel like I see D&T and at least one Mav player every event I go to around here. Instant speed is nice in general as well but the 3rd mana makes it miserable to cast against Delver.

[Don D]

After testing more cards in the flex slots (even pithing needle aganist wastes and port/shaman), I'm back at the SSGs. They are realy good against the mana denial from dnt and delver, in addition to accel the deck against other strategies. The SB is also starting to settle down, with a focus on delver, dnt and reanimator/dredge (the 3 worst mu). List will be posted the next time I'm at the desktop.

EDIT: I also tested daze over spell pierce. It was good against delver but abyssmal against dnt. So they left the deck again.

[GoblinZ]

EDIT: I also tested daze over spell pierce. It was good against delver but abyssmal against dnt. So they left the deck again.

daze could help in delver and combo match-up, and both daze and spell pierce are really bad against dnt.

I used to play 2 massacre wurm in the sb to fight dnt 3 years ago, I can say it was really good.

[Kobal]

I think if you want a creature in the board to exclusively shore up the DnT matchup, wouldn't Progenitus still be the best choice?

[Don D]

I used to play 2 massacre wurm in the sb to fight dnt 3 years ago, I can say it was really good.

The problem is to get the creature into play against all their hate bears the first place. Pyroclasm over massacre wurm all day.

Could you explain to me, in which situations the wurm is so good (=better than grisel/emrakul)?

[Megadeus]

Posting from the branches that I live in with my ape family to say I got top 16 with this deck at the classic today. When is Griselbrand getting banned?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I suppose when he becomes a problem. Why, does he feel better than normal? My girlfriend plays SnS and I play DnT, I win way more than she does when we play, and that is often.

I don't think there is a reason to even consider a ban right now. Feels healthy, and with the spoiling of Sorcerous Spyglass in ixalan, I see even less reason for a ban.

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[Megadeus]

I suppose when he becomes a problem. Why, does he feel better than normal? My girlfriend plays SnS and I play DnT, I win way more than she does when we play, and that is often.

I don't think there is a reason to even consider a ban right now. Feels healthy, and with the spoiling of Sorcerous Spyglass in ixalan, I see even less reason for a ban.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I mean, I've never played the deck before. Literal 0 games, 0 testing and went top 16. He's just dumb.

[Stevestamopz]

Posting from the branches that I live in with my ape family to say I got top 16 with this deck at the classic today. When is Griselbrand getting banned?

ethhhcuthe me, sneak and show is a really skill intensive deck that is super hard to play and punishes mistakes like no tomorrow! It's not like Delver which gives free wins left right and centre. Delver should be banned, not Griselbrand or Show and Tell, or as I like to call it, "Channel but better".

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes, he is very good. The deck is also pretty easy to disrupt, though, god-draws notwithstanding.

[screallix]

Martin Nielsen (Top-16'd GP-Lille 2015 and Top 32'd BoM Annecy 2014 with ANT) just recorded a legacy league with OmniTell and wrote a nice piece about his opinion.

Read more: https://snapcardster.com/blog/what-did-you-bring-to-class/

[GoblinZ]

The problem is to get the creature into play against all their hate bears the first place. Pyroclasm over massacre wurm all day.

Could you explain to me, in which situations the wurm is so good (=better than grisel/emrakul)?

grisel here is not as good that he is in the other match-up, not only due to karakas but also due to revoker or pithing needle.

The only reason I played wurm at that time is that I don't want to board out SNT against dnt, which is much more mana-efficient than sneak or through the breach but pretty risky in game one. Now I still don't want to board out snt so I play omniscience in the sb.

[Don D]

grisel here is not as good that he is in the other match-up, not only due to karakas but also due to revoker or pithing needle.

The only reason I played wurm at that time is that I don't want to board out SNT against dnt, which is much more mana-efficient than sneak or through the breach but pretty risky in game one. Now I still don't want to board out snt so I play omniscience in the sb.

Thanks for your explanation. I also like omniscience in the board against DnT (in addition to pyroclasm).

[diablo4488]

ethhhcuthe me, sneak and show is a really skill intensive deck that is super hard to play and punishes mistakes like no tomorrow! It's not like Delver which gives free wins left right and centre. Delver should be banned, not Griselbrand or Show and Tell, or as I like to call it, "Channel but better".

Wrong. Delver keeps the format healthy.
Which deck is harder to play depends on the meta.
But i'm either with Megadeus opinion.

[Ephemeron]

https://media.giphy.com/media/u52gRNybAmAy4/giphy.gif

[Chatto]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Chatto]

Sorry for the double-post, but have you guys seen the new Dragon (http://mythicspoiler.com/c17/cards/theurdragon.html)? Worth a slot?

[Don D]

Sorry for the double-post, but have you guys seen the new Dragon (http://mythicspoiler.com/c17/cards/theurdragon.html)? Worth a slot?

Grisel is much better at drawing cards. Omniscience is much better at playing stuff for free. Having to attack to get anything out of it doesn't help it either. Easy pass IMO.

[Ephemeron]

Yeah, hard pass for me. I'm having a hard time thinking of a scenario when it would be better than Griselbrand or even Emrakul. It attacks for 10 flying damage, draws you 1 card, and lets you put something into play, but if you had something good to put into play, you would've done it already instead of putting the Ur-Dragon in play. I guess it solves the problem of what happens if you have Sneak Attack and Omniscience at the same time. Still I cant imagine cutting a single Griselbrand or Emrakul for this. I'd rather draw more than 1 card or just nuke my opponent's board.

[Chatto]

I'm not even considering it as a replacement for Grisel, more like a 5th (-6th) SnT, on a stick, that draws you a card, if it connects. Too cute? Maybe :smile:

[rostov]

Wow. Interesting result from 1st out of 70 for 82th KMC Japan: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=24384&iddeck=191145 , and a sideboard that's using 5 of HOU: 3 abrades and 2 hazorats. And another 2 gods and a CoS?

I'm guessing the SB is quite against blades (batterskulls and swords), and the hazorats are an aggro backup plan if the combo don't take off or if there's hate against the combo?

Very interested to know thoughts from you guys on possible sideboard plans with such a deck.

[Ephemeron]

I have to admit, I have no idea what the hell is going on there. 3 Predict maindeck? Hazoret? Cavern of Souls to name God I guess? I mean, congrats to him that he won with it, but I can't think of why you'd ever want to play Hazoret in this deck.

EDIT: I will say, I don't hate the idea of Abrade. Kill a delver or a priest or whatever creature is currently giving you a hard time, or blow up a Pithing Needle/Chalice/Ensnaring Bridge? It does a pretty good Abrupt Decay impression in this deck if you're in the market for that type of effect.

[rostov]

I don't know japanese, but I'll try to get his attention and insight (just curious about his choice of the new cards). Apparantly he's been playing around with abrade for awhile now:

https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/sneak-show-decklist-by-ideue-yuuki-696926/visual

Maybe just a blip (surprise factor, etc)

[ThirdDegree]

The link seems broken, but I'm going to assume it's the event mentioned here:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-news-from-japan

I want to give that list a shot. I like predict as a way to get some raw card draw, and I really like the god sideboard. I wonder if it would improve the game vs the delvers of the meta

[Warbeast]

So I played a quest for power this past weekend... Went with the daze spirit guide package JPA went with awhile ago... But I tried out abrade in the board over the 3rd blood moon.... I went 4-3 would have been 5 2 totopbut I had food poising and roughed it out 1 round too long.... My overall thoughts... Abrade is really good... The list of creatures it kills is bigger than what it does not kill.. And also having a shatter aswell makes it even better. I had it in as a 1 of but I kinda wanted another cause I sided it in almost every match.. So I would def consider adding atleast 1 in their board since the card is good vs 2 out of 3 bad match ups for us (grixas dnt)

[Ephemeron]

I've always played normal SnS but my meta has recently become inundated with Maverick players after the top banning (and always had a disturbingly high amount of D&T) so I'm thinking about moving to the omni-wishboard version of the deck. I have a question regarding sideboarding though. When you know you're against a matchup where you know a specific card in your deck will be good (for example, Surgical Extraction against reanimator or Kozilek's Return against D&T), do you board those cards into your main 60 or leave them in the board to wish for at your convenience? Also, do kinda generic answer cards like Trickbind and Wipe Away always stay in the board? I've never cast a Cunning Wish before so I'm looking to get the hang of the strategy here.

[zach]

I've always played normal SnS but my meta has recently become inundated with Maverick players after the top banning (and always had a disturbingly high amount of D&T) so I'm thinking about moving to the omni-wishboard version of the deck. I have a question regarding sideboarding though. When you know you're against a matchup where you know a specific card in your deck will be good (for example, Surgical Extraction against reanimator or Kozilek's Return against D&T), do you board those cards into your main 60 or leave them in the board to wish for at your convenience? Also, do kinda generic answer cards like Trickbind and Wipe Away always stay in the board? I've never cast a Cunning Wish before so I'm looking to get the hang of the strategy here.

My general theory is that if you need the wish cards faster than you can cunning wish for them, bring them in. Like surgical is pretty crucial on turns 1-2 against reanimator. Whereas you generally have time to wish for kozilek's return against D&T.

[Ephemeron]

Man, this thread is dead. Anyways, played the Cunning Wish version at EE7 and went a very disappointing 5-4 (especially so since I started 4-1, then was 5-2). Matches were:

L: 1-2 vs. Grixis Control
W: 2-1 vs. Miracles (with Soothsaying:eyebrow:)
W: 2-1 vs. Miracles
W: 2-0 vs. Sneak & Show
W: 2-1 vs. ANT
L: 0-2 vs. Grixis Delver
W: 2-1 vs. BG Turbo Depths
L: 0-2 vs. 4c Loam
L: 1-2 vs. Czech Pile

Anyways, my general thoughts were that I loved having 3 Omniscience in the deck but I hated the cunning wishes. They really didn't do anything the entire tournament, and I'd rather just have the max combo pieces and a sideboard of actual good cards than a maindeck with clunkly 3 mana spells and a sideboard full of shit like Firemind's Foresight and Trickbind. The card I really missed out of the board was Grim Lavamancer, of which I am going to play 2 of now. Blood Moon is a powerful tool out of the board against Grixis and Pile but the problem I've been facing is that Blood Moon alone doesn't stop them if they get a creature down first. Having Lavamancer to do spot removal and clean up the trash would've been amazing. Also, all those decks are chock full of Diabolic Edict right now and Lavamancer is great in this deck to get around that.

I'm also gonna start testing out Abrade. I played it in my sideboard in Vintage this weekend and it was great, so I'm interested to see how it translates to Legacy.

[Noloam_]

Well done man.

i have played the omnisneak build for a long time with good results. but after testing sneak and show, i just believe that sneak and show is less flexible but way more solid. Paying off daze with spirit guide and slamming early moons is very effective. I also really dislike the sneak attack / cunningwish nonbo in omnisneak

[Darksteel]

Well done man.

i have played the omnisneak build for a long time with good results. but after testing sneak and show, i just believe that sneak and show is less flexible but way more solid. Paying of daze with spirit guide and slamming early moons is very effective. I also really dislike the sneak attack / cunningwish nonbo in omnisneak

Do you have a list, by chance? I’m coming back to this particular Griselbrand archetype (always gotta play one) and Simian Spirit Guide seems sick.

[Noloam_]

Do you have a list, by chance? I’m coming back to this particular Griselbrand archetype (always gotta play one) and Simian Spirit Guide seems sick.


Creatures (10)
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will

Artifacts (4)
4 Lotus Petal

Enchantments (4)
4 Sneak Attack

Lands (19)
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island


Sideboard (15)
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 boseiju, who shelters all
2 through the breach
1 echoing truth


im quite sold on this list. It is basically the stock mainboard though

[Ephemeron]

That's a cool list, very different from how I'd build it but I can respect the "turbo" SnS aspect of it. Just wondering, why Echoing Truth over Wipe Away? I've always found being able to bounce a Karakas to be worth the extra blue.

[Noloam_]

That's a cool list, very different from how I'd build it but I can respect the "turbo" SnS aspect of it. Just wondering, why Echoing Truth over Wipe Away? I've always found being able to bounce a Karakas to be worth the extra blue.

I believe it is too expensive in the light of thalia / thorn of amethyst (vs lands). It also curves better with show and tell

i have to admit that the echoing truth is the only card, on which i am not sure yet.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is a Pithing Needle a better fit for the slot?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Ephemeron]

Needle is certainly a playable card, but at least for me personally, I'd be extremely uncomfortable playing a 75 that didn't have any outs to Ensnaring Bridge right now with the amount of Red Stompy these days.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Needle is certainly a playable card, but at least for me personally, I'd be extremely uncomfortable playing a 75 that didn't have any outs to Ensnaring Bridge right now with the amount of Red Stompy these days.Sure, I haven't noticed that trend, that is reasonable.

I dislike Through the Breach, and while I play one in my board, it's never been good for me. Maybe I don't play it correctly or something. That's where I play a needle, and the boseiju slot I play a grafdigger's cage. I play 2 echoing truth.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[korstructure]

JPA - could you tell us more about your Eureka Tell list?

Is this a meta call or do you think Eureka Tell might be superior to OmniSneak and Sneak and Show?

When do we want Eureka over Sneak and where do you see the future of this deck?

Thanks in advance!

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-10-02

[JackaBo]

JPA - could you tell us more about your Eureka Tell list?

Is this a meta call or do you think Eureka Tell might be superior to OmniSneak and Sneak and Show?

When do we want Eureka over Sneak and where do you see the future of this deck?

Thanks in advance!

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-10-02

I'm also intrigued. Eureka working as SnT 5-8 is a DREAM for Omniscience builds where i think Sneak attack is way too anti-synergistic. My biggest concern have been the double green in the casting cost.

[Binkle]

So I'm a fairly new convert to S&S (specifically OmniSneak, though like others I found the wishes subpar and intend to move on to "traditional" soon).

I've only got ~25 games under my belt, and for ~22 of those they've been post-board in matchups where I *think* I'm supposed to want blood moon (pile and lands). Are you all 100% sold on blood moon? I obviously like it against lands (though the new interaction with Depths is awk), but against 4c it just feels like a speed bump that maybe buys some time, or it just gets countered and they untap and hymn me or something. It certainly doesn't stop them from casting force or REB, and deathrite/basics unlock the rest of their protection. Is blood moon actually worth it in that matchup, or is it a trap?

[Chatto]

If Blood Moon sticks, it's usually game over. Defend it with counters just long enough to land your combo. Or counter my Blood Moon, I'll play my combo :-) So yeah, it's worth it.

[Ephemeron]

So I'm a fairly new convert to S&S (specifically OmniSneak, though like others I found the wishes subpar and intend to move on to "traditional" soon).

I've only got ~25 games under my belt, and for ~22 of those they've been post-board in matchups where I *think* I'm supposed to want blood moon (pile and lands). Are you all 100% sold on blood moon? I obviously like it against lands (though the new interaction with Depths is awk), but against 4c it just feels like a speed bump that maybe buys some time, or it just gets countered and they untap and hymn me or something. It certainly doesn't stop them from casting force or REB, and deathrite/basics unlock the rest of their protection. Is blood moon actually worth it in that matchup, or is it a trap?

Blood Moon is, as they say, the mutt's nuts. It is very good against Czech Pile because their mana base is so horrendous that it's basically a must counter. Even if they have a Deathrite and fetch for an Island, you're still basically limiting them to one spell per turn, and DRS will eventually run out of lands to eat. In my experience it almost always eats a counterspell, but that's good because that makes it easier to resolve the spell that will actually kill them.

[Don D]

Played some games with the Eureka'n'Tell list and really like it. Eureka being a sorcery makes boseiju main a fantastic weapon against all the blue decks running around. I never liked omniscience main in the red version of the deck, but with Eureka they work great; they are actually the only way the green version can beat karakas. The double green CC can be a bit annoying against wasteland decks, but is manageable. I will play some more games with the green version before settling on the secondary color.

[RStien321]

Blood Moon is, as they say, the mutt's nuts. It is very good against Czech Pile because their mana base is so horrendous that it's basically a must counter. Even if they have a Deathrite and fetch for an Island, you're still basically limiting them to one spell per turn, and DRS will eventually run out of lands to eat. In my experience it almost always eats a counterspell, but that's good because that makes it easier to resolve the spell that will actually kill them.

I agree with everyone that a resolved Blood Moon is great and everything, with one stipulation that is important to remember. Blood Moon in hand does not make an opening hand a snap keep. You still need Blood Moon with counter backup, or Blood Moon with some cantrips to find more action. The number of times I've played Delver and countered a turn one Blood Moon only to watch my opponent do nothing the rest of the game is VERY high. Also, Blood Moon on the draw is worse than the play - a DRS against 4 Color or a Delver deck, or a resolved Delver can simply win the game on their own.

Summary - Blood Moon = Great. BUT Don't keep a hand just because it has Blood Moon.

[Binkle]

I agree with everyone that a resolved Blood Moon is great and everything, with one stipulation that is important to remember. Blood Moon in hand does not make an opening hand a snap keep. You still need Blood Moon with counter backup, or Blood Moon with some cantrips to find more action. The number of times I've played Delver and countered a turn one Blood Moon only to watch my opponent do nothing the rest of the game is VERY high. Also, Blood Moon on the draw is worse than the play - a DRS against 4 Color or a Delver deck, or a resolved Delver can simply win the game on their own.

Summary - Blood Moon = Great. BUT Don't keep a hand just because it has Blood Moon.

Fair enough!

Follow-up question: in a lot of lists I see 4 Leyline. I would imagine a deck with discard and edicts is where we want this, yes? In that case, are we seriously bringing in 6-7 enchantments that don't combo them? I guess I have no idea how many leylines one is supposed to bring in against fair decks.

[Don D]

Played some games with the Eureka'n'Tell list and really like it. Eureka being a sorcery makes boseiju main a fantastic weapon against all the blue decks running around. I never liked omniscience main in the red version of the deck, but with Eureka they work great; they are actually the only way the green version can beat karakas. The double green CC can be a bit annoying against wasteland decks, but is manageable. I will play some more games with the green version before settling on the secondary color.

Anybody else some testing results/experiences with the eureka version?

[JackaBo]

Is this totally crazy?

Deck: EurekaShow.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:6
3 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:36
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
4 Living Wish
4 Show and Tell
4 Eureka
4 Force of Will
4 Omniscience

Lands:18
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island

Sideboard:15
1 Elvish Piper
1 Sparkcaster
1 Griselbrand
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Teferi's Realm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nephalia Academy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Some explanations: Living wish can be used as a way to fight counters, discard and to some extent hatebears through the land package. It can fetch piper if you have no enabler. With enabler in hand but no fatty it fetches Gris. With Omniscience in play it fetches gris to draw into Emrakul or to just win with sparkcaster.
Post board versus faster combo you got fluster and surgical.
Post board versus (fair) blue decks you have carpets to ramp into the fatties.
Tereferi's realm comes in versus hatebears.

Thoughts and comments?


Created with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com/

[Binkle]

Is this totally crazy?

Deck: EurekaShow.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:6
3 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:36
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
4 Living Wish
4 Show and Tell
4 Eureka
4 Force of Will
4 Omniscience

Lands:18
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island

Sideboard:15
1 Elvish Piper
1 Sparkcaster
1 Griselbrand
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Teferi's Realm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nephalia Academy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Some explanations: Living wish can be used as a way to fight counters, discard and to some extent hatebears through the land package. It can fetch piper if you have no enabler. With enabler in hand but no fatty it fetches Gris. With Omniscience in play it fetches gris to draw into Emrakul or to just win with sparkcaster.
Post board versus faster combo you got fluster and surgical.
Post board versus (fair) blue decks you have carpets to ramp into the fatties.
Tereferi's realm comes in versus hatebears.

Thoughts and comments?


Created with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com/

Is the one mana saved on Living Wish really enough to make you prefer it over the Cunning Wish package with Release the Ants kill? Sparkcaster IS hilarious, though.

[Don D]

JPA - could you tell us more about your Eureka Tell list?

Is this a meta call or do you think Eureka Tell might be superior to OmniSneak and Sneak and Show?

When do we want Eureka over Sneak and where do you see the future of this deck?

Thanks in advance!

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-10-02

@JPA: some comments from you on the eureka list would be realy appreciated :-)

[Don D]

Is this totally crazy?

Deck: EurekaShow.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:6
3 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:36
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
4 Living Wish
4 Show and Tell
4 Eureka
4 Force of Will
4 Omniscience

Lands:18
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island

Sideboard:15
1 Elvish Piper
1 Sparkcaster
1 Griselbrand
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Teferi's Realm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nephalia Academy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Some explanations: Living wish can be used as a way to fight counters, discard and to some extent hatebears through the land package. It can fetch piper if you have no enabler. With enabler in hand but no fatty it fetches Gris. With Omniscience in play it fetches gris to draw into Emrakul or to just win with sparkcaster.
Post board versus faster combo you got fluster and surgical.
Post board versus (fair) blue decks you have carpets to ramp into the fatties.
Tereferi's realm comes in versus hatebears.

Thoughts and comments?


Created with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com/

Living wish is cool! But how does it compare to intuition? I think intuition is still the better card bc it can also grab omniscience; thus every piece of the puzzle and not only some.

EDIT: it also grabed FOW occasionally to protect the combo. Intuition > living wish

[JPA]

@JPA: some comments from you on the eureka list would be realy appreciated :-)

I started tuning EurekaTell for the pre-Top-ban meta. After Top got banned I discarded it due to rather unfavorable, more discard-heavy strategies gaining popularity. Eureka itself is much worse against discard than Sneak Attack because you can't just jam it anytime and draw a creature later.
The double green mana cost can be annoying, although Sneak Attack also often "costs" you :3::r::r: .
The huge upside of Eureka over Sneak Attack is its synergy with Omniscience and Boseiju. I'm pretty sure Eureka is better than Sneak Attack if you want to play 3+ Omniscience in your deck.

Anyway, I'm not sure EurekaTell discussion belongs in the Sneak & Show thread (although the strategies are very similar).

[Don D]

I started tuning EurekaTell for the pre-Top-ban meta. After Top got banned I discarded it due to rather unfavorable, more discard-heavy strategies gaining popularity. Eureka itself is much worse against discard than Sneak Attack because you can't just jam it anytime and draw a creature later.
The double green mana cost can be annoying, although Sneak Attack also often "costs" you :3::r::r: .
The huge upside of Eureka over Sneak Attack is its synergy with Omniscience and Boseiju. I'm pretty sure Eureka is better than Sneak Attack if you want to play 3+ Omniscience in your deck.

Anyway, I'm not sure EurekaTell discussion belongs in the Sneak & Show thread (although the strategies are very similar).

Thx for your reply. Completely agreeing on your analysis. I think the decks are close enough to be discussed together (like 4 spells and 4 duals off each other).

Counter meta -> Eureka tell with omniscience and boseiju
Discard meta -> classic Sneak'n'show
Omniscience + Sneak -> unsynergistic

Is the actual meta really that much more hostile to eureka? Probably yes! Grixis delver (aggro deck #1), Grixis/4c control (control deck #1) and storm (combo deck #1) are all running medium to heavy discard packages.

I realy like how the eureka list plays out. I have to go back to SnS to compare how it performs in the current meta.

EDIT: And the meta composition described above makes leyline of sanctity a cler 4 of in the SB IMO.

EDIT2: After playing more game sessions I agree that Sneak attack is better positioned in the actual meta than eureka. THX JPA

EDIT3: Really missing Boseiju in SnS.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is Abrade a playable card in this deck? I don't mean is it castable, I mean is it worth playing in my sideboard. I like that it can kill Leo in one shot, but still have added utility. However, in the opening post of this thread, it says that we are less affected by Chalice. I don't know in what comparison that is true, as I've been feeling very roughed up by it. It stops me from actively assembling the combo, and that feels relevant (obv). Does it stop me from casting the combo? No. Does it often make it impossible to assemble a combo to cast it? Yes.

I guess I'd like discussion on what an ideal sideboard looks like if there were a GP for Legacy tomorrow. There is a lot I am unsure of when it comes to this deck, as I don't play it often and don't have the knowledge to make the correct estimation of a card based on the strategy.

The emphasis is probably on Grixis Delver and DnT. Those seem to be the worst matchups. I guess I'd also be interested in BR Reanimator and the mirror. Elves seems to get hit by splash damage on a couple of these fronts (Cage for graveyard strategy, board wipe/Lavamancers). Does elves get hurt badly enough by Blood Moon turning off their Cradles that it's worth bringing in or is it just not a worthwhile strategy?

I appreciate the help.

[Warbeast]

Is Abrade a playable card in this deck? I don't mean is it castable, I mean is it worth playing in my sideboard. I like that it can kill Leo in one shot, but still have added utility. However, in the opening post of this thread, it says that we are less affected by Chalice. I don't know in what comparison that is true, as I've been feeling very roughed up by it. It stops me from actively assembling the combo, and that feels relevant (obv). Does it stop me from casting the combo? No. Does it often make it impossible to assemble a combo to cast it? Yes.

I guess I'd like discussion on what an ideal sideboard looks like if there were a GP for Legacy tomorrow. There is a lot I am unsure of when it comes to this deck, as I don't play it often and don't have the knowledge to make the correct estimation of a card based on the strategy.

The emphasis is probably on Grixis Delver and DnT. Those seem to be the worst matchups. I guess I'd also be interested in BR Reanimator and the mirror. Elves seems to get hit by splash damage on a couple of these fronts (Cage for graveyard strategy, board wipe/Lavamancers). Does elves get hurt badly enough by Blood Moon turning off their Cradles that it's worth bringing in or is it just not a worthwhile strategy?

I appreciate the help.

I play 1 abrade in my board.


I bring it in vs dnt delver eldrazi sometimes...

For me I see it as a card that hits a lot. Only things in the metal now that it don't hit are

Enchantments ( that are not around lately)
Goyf( down in popularity)
Angler
Any creature in reanimator and mirror

And you mostly want it vs decks that can playany hate card that hoses us. Yes you have wipe away/echoing truth but abrade is permanent which gives it a leg up... But I would play abrade with one of them and not over one of them (unless playing both)

As for the rest of your question.. My board looks like this currently...

1 Red Elemental blast
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Abrade
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroclasm
1 Kozeliks Return
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Omniscience
3 Defense Grid


.... It might not be the ideal board but I feel confident in it. I feel that through the breech is not good anymore without boseju but tbh even with it I don't think outs good now my metal has allot of dnt still and reanimator comes up every so often... So I cut them for omni ifbwasteland was not as prevalent in my metal I could see playing a boseju or 2 in the 75(1 main 1 side) defense grid is for delver decks obviously to weaken theory counters a little hopefully enough for you to take advantage of it..
Blood moon is pretty obvious as for now with lots of Czech pile going around. Surgical for reanimator koz return and Pyroclasm for dnt delver and elves as sweepers. GL Abrade truth as spot removal truth is good vs reanimator and reb as your extra counter in the board also can serve as removal in some matches.

Blood moon vs elves is not worth it though it does look good stopping cradle shenanigans making casting Leo hard as well as activating deathrite also daring them to draw the forest( not sure how many they run but I assume its more than 2)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So how do you board against DnT? It feels like the worst matchup. As a DnT player myself, I am concerned about the K's Return. 3 seems high for a board wipe, and gets hit by a Prelate naming 3, which is a problem, as a DnT player will know to name 3 for the issue of Blood Moon and the obvious SnT. It's why I've never been able to try it. Can't get past that. I have an Engineered Explosives in the slot, but is kind of mediocre in a 2 color list, although being able to blow up chalice is a big plus in my opinion. I guess Abrade does that, along with Truth (just a 1-turn reprieve, but a lot of the time it's all you need).

I like that you use 3 Defense Grid. How do you board against Grixis Delver? I read in the opening post to board out Pierces, but then it instructs one to bring in Flusterstorm, and that confuses me. I also wonder if Jace tMS is good in this meta somewhere in the board, as the mirror will be happening more often.

Thanks for your response, this thread is a ghost town.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Warbeast]

So how do you board against DnT? It feels like the worst matchup. As a DnT player myself, I am concerned about the K's Return. 3 seems high for a board wipe, and gets hit by a Prelate naming 3, which is a problem, as a DnT player will know to name 3 for the issue of Blood Moon and the obvious SnT. It's why I've never been able to try it. Can't get past that. I have an Engineered Explosives in the slot, but is kind of mediocre in a 2 color list, although being able to blow up chalice is a big plus in my opinion. I guess Abrade does that, along with Truth (just a 1-turn reprieve, but a lot of the time it's all you need).

I like that you use 3 Defense Grid. How do you board against Grixis Delver? I read in the opening post to board out Pierces, but then it instructs one to bring in Flusterstorm, and that confuses me. I also wonder if Jace tMS is good in this meta somewhere in the board, as the mirror will be happening more often.

Thanks for your response, this thread is a ghost town.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

so to tell you how i board i first need to show tyou the list im running so you can try and migyver your way through your board

4 emrakul the aeons torn
4 gristlebrand
1 simian spirit guide

4 show and tell
4 sneak attack
4 lotus petal
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 preordain
2 flusterstorm
2 daze
1 spell peirce

*standard manabase*


so for dnt i like to cut all the counters except force sure it puts me down a card most of the time but putting them behind your snt makes it berter for you.so i board like this...

out
-2 daze
-2 flusterstorm
-1 spell peirce
-2 sneak attack

in
+ 2 omni
+1 koz return
+1 pyroclasm
+1 truth
+1 abrade
+1 grim lavamancer

... you could bring in a single blood moon over a preordain only if you want to ive been doing it less and less

now against grixas delver it gets tricky...cause you want 8 cards but can only afford to board out 7

out
-2 daze
-1 preordain
-1 sneak attack
-1 ssg
-1 spell pierce
-1 force of will

in
+1 R.E.B.(optional)
+1 grim lavamancer
+1 abrade
+1 pyroclaim
+1 K Return
+3 Defense grid

...the reb is a removal spell aswell as a counter but we are bringing in a 3 of that "shuts off" counters... so an option here is to board out 1 of your big guys, more than likely to board out gristlebrand vs them since they have access to burn but 9 out of 10 they board their burn out but still worth boarding one out on the safe side.. it might not be correct but i will be playing in NA legacy champs for the first time this weekend and ill be running this 75 unless i can find other reasons to change anything in the board...also you could board in truth but tbh im not sure what i would cut for it

the reason you board in the flusterstorm is because delver is not a mana intensive deck so they are likely to not be able to pay the storm cost and they wont want to counter each copy of flusterstorm leaving you to cast your snt freely.

so JPA awhile ago on his twitter account(sorry im a stalker lol jk) had a version of snt that, against delver decks, turned to a blood moon pw control list with jace and chandra.. i think he liked it but obviously did not stick with it... jace is great but im personally unsure if i would play it over and card in my current board.. i mean people have had plenty of time to look at my board and has not said a thing so either they like it or they hate it and dont want to tell me.

[AnvilOfCrom]

.. i mean people have had plenty of time to look at my board and has not said a thing so either they like it or they hate it and dont want to tell me.

Maybe i would cut 1 Defense Grid für the 2nd Lavamancer, but overall i like your sideboard.

Have you ever played with 4 Leylines in the board? I will try it, but its really hard to find space for them.

[ThirdDegree]

What's the general consensus w/ leyline? I feel like you need to mull in order to find one, and if you get one, but your opener is garbage, what's the point? Is it worth 4 slots for that?

[Warbeast]

What's the general consensus w/ leyline? I feel like you need to mull in order to find one, and if you get one, but your opener is garbage, what's the point? Is it worth 4 slots for that?

so my personal opinion on the card is that it sucks outside of turn 0 for us.. its a great card vs grixas and other decks with discard but outside of show and tell and wasting 2 of your petals on white you can not cast it reliably we already have 8 cards for that no need to waste more slots


Maybe i would cut 1 Defense Grid für the 2nd Lavamancer, but overall i like your sideboard.

Have you ever played with 4 Leylines in the board? I will try it, but its really hard to find space for them.

i tried the leyline board and though it was ok im not comfertable have more do nothing cards in the deck. i like the idea of a secont lavamancer a little but to do my best to not play any number of leylines in the board i think i have to play the 3 grids.. the whole point of leylines is to make their discard dead draws where d grid hinders the counters so they can discard stuff but id rather them struggle to counter a show and tell/sneak attack than worry about their discard.. this is just my way of thinking im not saying it is right it just works for me more than it does not if you play the leylines i think you are off the d grid plan so if you are using my board as a basis then the 4th card would more than likely be abrade i think or k return either one... once again this is my opinion

[SoldierToken]

so to tell you how i board i first need to show tyou the list im running so you can try and migyver your way through your board
so for dnt i like to cut all the counters except force sure it puts me down a card most of the time but putting them behind your snt makes it berter for you.so i board like this...
out
-2 daze
-2 flusterstorm
-1 spell peirce
-2 sneak attack

in
+ 2 omni
+1 koz return
+1 pyroclasm
+1 truth
+1 abrade
+1 grim lavamancer


Hi guys,

Minus the Abrade, as I've yet to try it out (but am going to soon as it looks fantastic), I have had similar success boarding this way against D&T.

muchThis thread got me thinking about Elves and Maverick type matchups. Most of my local meta (as of late) is very much these three decks, and I think it's been warping how I sideboard. A few times I ended up bringing in too much stuff, and it possibly made my deck worse. You ever do that?

Elves, for instance, is one of those matchups where I feel like my gut says to never change the deck other than maybe a few Pyroclasm type effects. The matchup is quite favorable after all, but then I look at the sideboard and think "Well they have crop rotation and Karakas ... maybe I could afford to bring in Omniscience too." but the other competing thought in my brain says "and what if they Rec-Sage when you Show and Tell Omniscience in?".

Maverick I more or less follow the same strategy you posted for D&T. Counters come out except for a FoW package for early stuff like Thalia or Teeg.

Anyway, Just wanted to share my thoughts. I've been playing a lot of Sneak and Show over the last 18 months and found I've been making most of my mistakes in how I sideboard. A lot of it was coming from over-thinking things and even psyching myself out.

[Mat]

Hello guys, I'm picking up Omniscience version of Sheak and SHow and I want to learn the basics of the deck. Right now I'm Really struggling with the sideboard. Does anyone have asideboard guide to show me/? It would help me a lot!

Thanks!!

[Abantau]

Hello guys, I'm picking up Omniscience version of Sheak and SHow and I want to learn the basics of the deck. Right now I'm Really struggling with the sideboard. Does anyone have asideboard guide to show me/? It would help me a lot!

Thanks!!

Erm, I use to Watch youtube videos of mtgo just search: omnisneak or omni-sneak or sneak and show (some are omnisneak versions some are old school sneak show though) to get an idea. They do explain how they sideboard.

[hoernchen]

I see Through the Breach in nearly every SB. Why do you play it and in which MU are they boarded in?