[Deck] DDFT : LDW and some other fancy things

[FirefoxMetzger]

Ok, I have no Idea in which forum this should go as it concerns an established deck but the deck isn't seen that often.
I am playing DDFT for some time now and can only repeat myself in saying this deck is realy awesome and a hell lot of fun to play. I am still too bad in solveing greater puzzles in short time, but no one is born as master.

I am haveing two main questions about DDFT:
How does Lim-Dûl's Vault play in it?
and
What is the cheapest way to craft an double ToA pile?
As many puzzles you can find on the internet require you to do so, I thought about the minimum requirement on a double ToA pile (probably including double usage of DD). Best i could come up with was:
IU LED LED BW DD
with a hell lot of cantrips and an even more ridiculous amount of Mana floating around before the first Doomsday. There has to be a cheeper way.

I know there is a google doc on crafing piles. However it mainly focuses on Meditate piles which are kind of outdated.

Is there another list focusing more on (recent) IU piles? Maybe some Maniac and Emrakul piles to? I am very unfamiliar with those piles as I allways try to storm everything I can. I'm just to much of a Jonny for this.
How does the Helm of Aweakening combo play in Doomsday? Should i cut someting in my SB for bringing it in as another possible way to win?

Thanks for advice and tipps

My decklist so far:

1 Badlands
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
3 Doomsday
2 Duress
3 Flooded Strand
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
1 Orim's Chant
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
1 Rain of Filth
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Silence
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Laboratory Maniac
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Time Spiral
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

[stage]

You could try posting on the main fetchland tendrils thread here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7800-Deck-Fetchland-Tendrils

What often happens with old/inactive archetypes is that once a couple people start posting on an old thread, more people join in and the discussion gets more active

[JamieW89]

Other than the FT thread I'd suggest going to http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/ for more discussion on DDFT (2759 posts in the DDFT section).

[JanoschEausH]

Am i wrong or do you need a second cantrip in your IU LED LED BW DD Pile? As i can see it, you wont be able to just draw into it with top, you need a GP or something. Maybe i'm wrong.

[FirefoxMetzger]

Am i wrong or do you need a second cantrip in your IU LED LED BW DD Pile? As i can see it, you wont be able to just draw into it with top, you need a GP or something. Maybe i'm wrong.

not only just a second one. you will need 2 cantrips and about 12 mana WITH the sdt in play to make this work. As I said the solution is very crappy and straight foreward. Was wondering if it is possible to create someting smarter.

[davelin]

not only just a second one. you will need 2 cantrips and about 12 mana WITH the sdt in play to make this work. As I said the solution is very crappy and straight foreward. Was wondering if it is possible to create someting smarter.

If you have a Chain of Vapor in hand, you can cast double-DD with a SDT in play. Assuming enough mana after a resolved DD -

IU
LED
LED
DD
BW

Flip Top, in response Chain top to your hand. Cast IU then LED x2 then DD. Second DD pile -

IU
LED
BW
LED
DD

Cast Top, flip top, cast IU then LED then BW.

[Deviruchi]

1. LDV is an awesome tutor as a 1-2 but not today. With 3 DD and 3/4 BW (+ cantrips) we have enough search power.

2. It would be good to know how high storm you need to kill an opponent in that paragraph. With IC (2nd game of after BW) you can -84 your opponent with SDT + 5 lands in play and Silence, DR, RoF, DD, LED, LED in hand. It's not unreal hand to have. DD pile (IC, LED, LED, BW, BW). Way to go: DD, IC, BW->TSP, BW->ToA, DD, IC, ToA.

3. You will find everything in a place you have been already registered. Welcome on board.

4. You should play 1 CoV + 3 AD, not contrariwise.


Best regards,
Deviruchi

[FirefoxMetzger]

If you have a Chain of Vapor in hand, you can cast double-DD with a SDT in play. Assuming enough mana after a resolved DD -

IU
LED
LED
DD
BW

Flip Top, in response Chain top to your hand. Cast IU then LED x2 then DD. Second DD pile -

IU
LED
BW
LED
DD

Cast Top, flip top, cast IU then LED then BW.

Right. I found a lot on to double Doomsday, pass turn or Time Spiral piles leading to amazing stormcounts. I also found some infos on DD-TS-DD piles, which is kind of awesome casting all this post Doomsday. However I never found piles which lead to a double usage of Tendrils of Agony (doubling the stormcount and giving you life).
These situations may come handy when you want to win sitting on 2 life against an opponent with life greater than 25 or even higher. When I started playing Doomsday a guy on the internet send me a puzzle vs Maverick where you would need something around 30 storm while sitting at 2 life and a shit ton of mana. Unfortunately I've forgotten the exact puzzle.
However I was wondering if it is (generally) possible to create piles with cast ToA twice. It obv is but what is the least requirement for these?


1. LDV is an awesome tutor as a 1-2 but not today. With 3 DD and 3/4 BW (+ cantrips) we have enough search power.

2. It would be good to know how high storm you need to kill an opponent in that paragraph. With IC (2nd game of after BW) you can -84 your opponent with SDT + 5 lands in play and Silence, DR, RoF, DD, LED, LED in hand. It's not unreal hand to have. DD pile (IC, LED, LED, BW, BW). Way to go: DD, IC, BW->TSP, BW->ToA, DD, IC, ToA.

3. You will find everything in a place you have been already registered. Welcome on board.

4. You should play 1 CoV + 3 AD, not contrariwise.


Best regards,
Deviruchi

Ah, that pile sounds interesting :D. I was not looking forward solving a particular scenario. It was just more general a thought about what would be minimally required to build a pile which uses ToA twice.
However I still have one question: what is IC? I wasn't able to figure this out.

Ok I will try switching the CoVs for AD and vice versa. This was a list given to me by a guy who played Doomsday against me online. Hence I still not feel like I am understanding the deck fully enough to make well-conceived changes I guarded against changing it. As I think that the deck is a bit fragile, meaning that changes in the wrong places will make it extremely hard or even impossible to play.
However I was thinking about playing a single copy of CoV main deck. But what to take out for it?




3. You will find everything in a place you have been already registered. Welcome on board.


Thanks man!

[Deviruchi]

However I still have one question: what is IC? I wasn't able to figure this out.

Infernal Contract. Could also be Cruel Bargain. Just draw4 spell in this pile.


However I was thinking about playing a single copy of CoV main deck. But what to take out for it?

Mostly what you can see in builds without white: 3 BW + 1 CoV rather than 4 BW and SB: 1 CoV.

[anwei]

However I still have one question: what is IC? I wasn't able to figure this out.
...
However I was thinking about playing a single copy of CoV main deck. But what to take out for it?


Edit: already answered: Contract and yea, 4th wish



I was not looking forward solving a particular scenario. It was just more general a thought about what would be minimally required to build a pile which uses ToA twice.


I'm not great with the deck, but have practice a fair amount and played it a few times at small events. Here's my advice: don't go out of the gate trying to figure out how to build double ToA piles. That will come up in a small percentage of your games, you would only have the resources to pull it off (if playing perfectly) in an even smaller percentage of those games, and you're not going to figure it out when the time comes for a long time. And if you do, it won't be because you memorized the minimum requirements and cantripped/topped into the numbers you knew from your spreadsheet. You can get some familiarity with TS and double-DD piles, but you'll have to figure them out when you're in that spot (and the Storm Board threads on those topics are the best resource).

When you're this new with the deck, you need to goldfish it a bunch and get down the standard lines cold. Start by worrying about the very basic piles (SDT, cantrip, SDT+cantrip, 2xCantrip) and goldfish to get yourself into scenarios where you can win with those lines. Memorizing 4 piles isn't that hard; knowing how to use Top and cantrips to get to those points is more challenging, and will take a while. The first several piles in this post (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11228376&postcount=12) are pretty good for that.
When you're good at winning those, start worrying about CoV and Brainstorm+dead cards, and play games with fixed disruption conditions: the goldfish opens with leyline, the goldfish has FoW+Blue card, the opponent casts Thoughtseize T1.
Only after lots of practice there should you start worrying about fancier piles, and then they will click in your mind as modifications of existing lines with their own requirements.

[FirefoxMetzger]

Infernal Contract. Could also be Cruel Bargain. Just draw4 spell in this pile.



Mostly what you can see in builds without white: 3 BW + 1 CoV rather than 4 BW and SB: 1 CoV.

Ok the piles do make sense now. I like them :)
Cutting a BW for CoV . . . Not sure. Imo its hard enough to find one of your 7 DDs in the deck but maybe I am just misplaying a lot or having bad luck. But well, the proof is in the pudding.




When you're this new with the deck, you need to goldfish it a bunch and get down the standard lines cold. Start by worrying about the very basic piles (SDT, cantrip, SDT+cantrip, 2xCantrip) and goldfish to get yourself into scenarios where you can win with those lines. Memorizing 4 piles isn't that hard; knowing how to use Top and cantrips to get to those points is more challenging, and will take a while. The first several piles in this post (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11228376&postcount=12) are pretty good for that.
When you're good at winning those, start worrying about CoV and Brainstorm+dead cards, and play games with fixed disruption conditions: the goldfish opens with leyline, the goldfish has FoW+Blue card, the opponent casts Thoughtseize T1.
Only after lots of practice there should you start worrying about fancier piles, and then they will click in your mind as modifications of existing lines with their own requirements.


You got me wrong there, I think. What I tried to say is that I am not completely unfamiliar with the deck. So far I played like 80-100 Games with DDFT vs a large variety of matchups. The standard piles with and without SDT are not unfamiliar.
However I am still learning all these niche tricks like CoV on your SDT for a mini draw spell. (Never though of that before tbh.) Though I still feel like a big noob when it comes to DDFT as it seems to me that there are Oceans of information which I haven't explored yet. Thus I am grateful when I get pointed in any direction, as (which I mentioned above) my resources about DDFT were hardly limited (still working myself through thestormboard).
Another thing that makes me insecure is that there aren't any other DDFT players in either location I am playing. Therefore I can't watch them play or talk to them to get an idea of how far I have advanced in any point. Its a bit like cycling blindfolded.
In this case I ran myself into those double ToA piles. Reason being was I though that the Storm copys themselve would increase your stormcount which would lead to some amazing storm kills. Turns out they don't which makes the piles not that interesting anymore.
I'd guess I try harder on those double DD, DD/TS and DD/TS/DD piles as a friend of mine keeps bullying my DDFT with his Maverick.

Anyways I appreciate your help and tips. As any resource of information is highly welcome.

Thanks!

[Technics]

I have never needed double Tendrils. Just grab Time Spiral and storm to 22ish and tendrils from there.

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[emidln]

I have never needed double Tendrils. Just grab Time Spiral and storm to 22ish and tendrils from there.

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The only time recently I could have used double Tendrils I had already sided in my Lab Maniac.

[Deviruchi]

I have already used double tendrils piles twice vs 12post. It was during the period of time when the use of Laboratory Maniac in the SB was highly inadvisable. Also creating this winning line of play on the fly felt great.