How to Identify Archetypes

[(nameless one)]

I was reading the new Sneak Show Primer and I read the "how to identify" part. I thoroughly enjoyed it even though I despise the deck.

I wish there was a similar stickied main thread on identifying legacy archetypes based on turn one/two plays and to what to watch out for the following turns.

Also, take note Everyday Eternal hosts. How would you play around the given information by your opponent based on the deck you play (Matt plays Midrange, Jacob is known to play combo (or any Griselbrand.dec), Sam plays control and Sean plays fringe rogue "lockdown prison" strategies. Maybe you can invite Bob again as the tempo player and/or another guest known to play other playstyles not mentioned).

[Zombie]

Nice one from the podcast itself:
Tropical Island, Top: 12-Post.

[(nameless one)]

Nice one from the podcast itself:
Tropical Island, Top: 12-Post.

Yes, but that episode was focused to Cabal Therapy.

[apple713]

You could just wait for us to finish it on the sneak and show thread and then extract that segment for a sticky

We have all or at least the majority of land drops completed. There is only a handful of t1 drops that further narrow it down from there

[Lemnear]

Yes, but that episode was focused to Cabal Therapy.

Excuse me. Which podcast was it? (Timestamp?)

[(nameless one)]

Excuse me. Which podcast was it? (Timestamp?)

It was this one (http://www.eternalcentral.com/everyday-eternal-podcast-episode-5-therapy-session/)

[Lemnear]

It was this one (http://www.eternalcentral.com/everyday-eternal-podcast-episode-5-therapy-session/)

Thx

[twndomn]

How Not to identify decks:
Volcanic Island - This land could be anything. RUG Delver, WUR Delver, UR Delver, Sneak and Show, Miracle, Painter Stone....
Tropical Island - This land could be slightly less than any anything. RUG Delver, BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, 12 Post....
Island - This land could be anything. Omni-tell, Miracle, Sneak and Show, High Tide, Merfolk....

Generally, it's the combination of the 1st land and the 1st spell they play. Sometimes, it's the 1st land and the 1st ability they play, as in 1st ability could be cycle, oh 1st land is optional, cause some decks don't need that 1st land.

[thecrav]

Generally, it's the combination of the 1st land and the 1st spell they play. Sometimes, it's the 1st land and the 1st ability they play, as in 1st ability could be cycle, oh 1st land is optional, cause some decks don't need that 1st land.

Completely agree here. If they're playing only land-go, I'm putting them on either keeping a not-so-great hand or killing me next turn.

[kiblast]

Completely agree here. If they're playing only land-go, I'm putting them on either keeping a not-so-great hand or killing me next turn.

You should probably put them on Miracles. No combo deck goes draw go without playing cantrips of any sort. Instead a Miracle player wants to go late game and has little to no interest in casting spells when he's sitting on a Brainstorm+ Terminus in hand. Unless he has Top or CB. But most of the times he will try to play these out of pierce range, so it's perfectly normal for a Miracle player to go draw-go for the first 3-4 turns of the game.

In regard to the post above, if opponent opens with Volcanic go, we just have very few choices here

-Delver decks ( they have stifle and they run Wasteland. They have few creatures and a cc2 game breaking creatures, maybe Goyf, or Sfm, or Young Pyromancer. They play taxing counters.) = they all play the same and the way you play vs doesn't really change a lot.

-combo deck ( Snt, Tes, Ant) They're combo decks. You need to stay open for taxing counters or play discard spells, or play an hatebear, or go off before them. There is not a lot beyond that.

- Miracles that kept a sketchy hand.

That's it in 99% of the cases. Ponder and Bs will not help understanding what they are up to because they're played by all three archetypes (though Miracle usually play 1-2). Ancient tomb helps. So does Delver. Intuition should give you hints. It's not that hard. I find this process rather easy the vast majority of the times. Last month I spotted a guy playing Aluren on turn 2 because he went misty-trop- ponder on his first turn and dropped a Taiga on his 2nd turn:tongue:.

[.dk]

You should probably put them on Miracles. No combo deck goes draw go without playing cantrips of any sort.

Could easily be an EOT Entomb from Reanimator or Tin Fins if they USea or Swamp, Pass. There are always cases...

[twndomn]

You should probably put them on Miracles. No combo deck goes draw go without playing cantrips of any sort.

Swamp in play, respond to you tap out for Brainstorm, ritual, ritual, Ad Neasuem.

[alphastryk]

Could easily be an EOT Entomb from Reanimator or Tin Fins if they USea or Swamp, Pass. There are always cases...

Yeah, but that's usually a bad line from reanimator - you want to play Entomb before your opponent can Daze / Pierce it.

[Megadeus]

Your opponent goes, Chrome Mox, imprint simian Sprit Guide, City of Traitors, Seething Song, Sneak Attack, activate, put in Worldspine Wurm, Attack you to 5, eot make 3 5/5 Wurms.

You play Swamp Cabal Therapy, what do you name?

[thecrav]

Your opponent goes, Chrome Mox, imprint simian Sprit Guide, City of Traitors, Seething Song, Sneak Attack, activate, put in Worldspine Wurm, Attack you to 5, eot make 3 5/5 Wurms.

I think at this point, I'd be all "lol wat" at seeing Worldspine

[Lemnear]

Generally, it's the combination of the 1st land and the 1st spell they play. Sometimes, it's the 1st land and the 1st ability they play, as in 1st ability could be cycle, oh 1st land is optional, cause some decks don't need that 1st land.

What does my usual Misty Rainforest into Volcanic Island into Ponder tell you about me playing TES? ;P

[Megadeus]

I think at this point, I'd be all "lol wat" at seeing Worldspine
It's not as lulzy when it happens to you 3 weeks in a row at your local when you are playing 4 Color Loam lol.
"BUT MY CHALICE OF THE VOIDS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD VERSUS COMBO"

[TheArchitect]

I often go Polluted Delta>island, ponder (no shuffle), go. This can really put my opponent on defensive. Maybe they had a turn 1 delver or their own ponder, but keep mana up for turn 1 spell pierce but I am actually just playing UWr miracles and nothing that will kill them next turn.

Making a guide for this is tricky. Its more a 6th sense. Its not just the cards they play, but the players behaviors and appearance (and the appearance of their sleaves, playmat, etc.). From playing nothing but decks that have 4 maindeck cabal therapies (without probes or other discard) for quiet a long time I got pretty good at it. Research helps, but it is definitely not something you learn overnight by reading a guide.

[kiblast]

Swamp in play, respond to you tap out for Brainstorm, ritual, ritual, Ad Neasuem.


Could easily be an EOT Entomb from Reanimator or Tin Fins if they USea or Swamp, Pass. *There are always cases...

He said ''playing only land go''. I assumed repeatedly over the course of various turns. Like 3-4. How often do you see combo players playing draw go for more than 2 turns (considering storm combo decks play13-15 lands) ? Correct, almost never. My bad though, as I assumed his ''only land go'' meant over the course of a certain number of turns. Not just the first. Obviously fetch go doesn't mean anything lol.

Also with, Swamp in play, I don't think I put them on Miracles lol.

[Megadeus]

He said ''playing only land go''. I assumed repeatedly over the course of various turns. Like 3-4. How often do you see combo players playing draw go for more than 2 turns (considering storm combo decks play13-15 lands) ? Correct, almost never. My bad though, as I assumed his ''only land go'' meant over the course of a certain number of turns. Not just the first. Obviously fetch go doesn't mean anything lol.

Also with, Swamp in play, I don't think I put them on Miracles lol.

One combo deck that does tend to land go for a turn or two is Hypergenesis. So watch out for that.

[thecrav]

Making a guide for this is tricky. Its more a 6th sense. Its not just the cards they play, but the players behaviors and appearance (and the appearance of their sleaves, playmat, etc.). From playing nothing but decks that have 4 maindeck cabal therapies (without probes or other discard) for quiet a long time I got pretty good at it. Research helps, but it is definitely not something you learn overnight by reading a guide.

I agree that a guide isn't really possible. A discussion is more apt. Here's an opener, here's what different people thinks it means and here's why.

This also gives people a chance to learn the why behind something and allow them to develop their own why, rather than something to learn by rote.

[apple713]

building a guide to this is fairly simple actually. I think that the approach might be as simple as what colors is my opponent showing, and what cards do I expect from those colors. Example, "my opponent played a swamp and passed" - its possible they have discard. Its possible they are ANT or reanimator, its unlikely they'll have a counter spell for my show and tell.

[Lemnear]

building a guide to this is fairly simple actually. I think that the approach might be as simple as what colors is my opponent showing, and what cards do I expect from those colors. Example, "my opponent played a swamp and passed" - its possible they have discard. Its possible they are ANT or reanimator, its unlikely they'll have a counter spell for my show and tell.

ANT wouldn't go "swamp, go". That's a play I'd expect from pox

[Megadeus]

If my opponent went Swamp Pass, I'd put them on Pox or Nic Fit most likely. Nic Fit runs 2-3 basic swamp, and a lot of the time they don't want to blind therapy. Otherwise, I agree that it is also likely a pox player that has a bunch of creature removal since they didn't cast a discard spell T1.

[Echelon]

Carsten Kotter wrote a nice piece about this some time ago.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26423_Legacy-Openings.html

I hope this helps!

[Koby]

Your opponent goes, Chrome Mox, imprint simian Sprit Guide, City of Traitors, Seething Song, Sneak Attack, activate, put in Worldspine Wurm, Attack you to 5, eot make 3 5/5 Wurms.

You play Swamp Cabal Therapy, what do you name?

"Hope and Glory"

[Echelon]

Your opponent goes, Chrome Mox, imprint simian Sprit Guide, City of Traitors, Seething Song, Sneak Attack, activate, put in Worldspine Wurm, Attack you to 5, eot make 3 5/5 Wurms.

You play Swamp Cabal Therapy, what do you name?

FoW, so that I might safely play Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Echoing Truth!

[apple713]

ANT wouldn't go "swamp, go". That's a play I'd expect from pox

Is it not possible for them to do so? Dont they run basics? Pretty sure their deck requires black mana.


If my opponent went Swamp Pass, I'd put them on Pox or Nic Fit most likely. Nic Fit runs 2-3 basic swamp, and a lot of the time they don't want to blind therapy. Otherwise, I agree that it is also likely a pox player that has a bunch of creature removal since they didn't cast a discard spell T1.

Your responses indicate to me that i've been playing combo too much and that I ignore many of the fair decks in the format. Yes swamp pass is something id probably see more often from pox / mic fit. However due to their decreased appearance in large tournaments i assume ANT with a poor draw because ANT is more widely played. I feel a bad hand with a popular deck is more common than a sub par hand with 2 much less frequently played decks. Also, its safer to assume the deck is ant and play cautiously rather assume the deck is pox and then they ritual ritual ad nauseum when your tapped out holding a spell pierce. There is much more leeway with Nic Fit and Pox than there is with ANT.

[TheArchitect]

building a guide to this is fairly simple actually. I think that the approach might be as simple as what colors is my opponent showing, and what cards do I expect from those colors. Example, "my opponent played a swamp and passed" - its possible they have discard. Its possible they are ANT or reanimator, its unlikely they'll have a counter spell for my show and tell.

I do that with esper stoneblade a lot when Ive got only 1 basic in hand but want to play a turn 2 stoneforge. I could easily have FoW in hand. Also, in that case the distinction between ANT in reanimator is huge if it is a show and tell you want to resolve. Resolving one could just make you lose if your opponent has a hand of griselbrand or ashen rider.

The problem with a guide on paper is it has to look something like this:

Opponent does swamp go, he could be playing:
Esper stoneblade
ANT
Pox
Reanimator
Doomsday
Tin fins
Nic Fit
Jund
Junk
Aluren
UB Tezzeret
BUG landstill
Dead Guy
Some others I am forgetting


It could be any of those decks. Yes some might be more popular in some areas, but that is one of those variables that your 6th sense needs to tune into. You can also eliminate some of the options if you pick up vibes on weather your opponent is the "want-to-be pro" type, a metagaming genius, or the kind of guy that always plays his pet deck. You can read into weather he is more Timmy/spike/johnny. What kind archtypes he would like (combo, control, aggro etc).

Example:

I sit down across from a roughly 5'9'' athletic built guy, looks to be in his mid 20s. Clean shaven, wearing hoodie, puts down a playmat from some non-legacy GP that happened a few years ago and is adorned with numerous SCG IQ, and LGS "top 8 pins" . I make small talk asking him where hes from and what other formats he plays, is legacy his favorite. Hes driven about 6 hours, he likes legacy alot, but he tends to play standard and limited the most these days(is clearly adapt at many formats, and falls into "want-to-be pro" type, probably cant focus entirely on legacy and therefor not a pet deck player, likely is playing a "good" deck that the pros recommend playing, and/or a deck that has been good for a long time and he knows well). He shuffles up his black sleeved deck but doesn't do so particularly efficiently or quickly (not a deck that cares about going to time). We make some more small talk, turns out we have a friend in common from the college he went to, where he is still going for a masters in physics (obviously a smart guy, and a pretty social guy, obviously good at the game, but to him making small talk and "having fun" is more important than showing a poker face the entire time and not letting any information out, puts him a bit more on the Timmy scale of things).

So in summery, just in the first 2 minutes of sitting down, if we are making assumptions here is what I would make:
- Hes good at magic, but no legacy expert per say.
- Hes probably playing a deck that has been a competitor for a long time, or a "good" deck the pros recommend.
- His deck isn't concerned with going to time.
- His deck is likely a bit more of a "timmy deck", it does big crazy fun things
- He might have a deck that rewards being really smart and good at math and stuff

Based on those assumptions I would say he is probably playing Elves. If it wasn't elves, Id guess UWR tempo, RUG tempo, show and tell or reanimotor. If I had a turn 1 cabal therapy on the play against this guy I would name deathrite shaman or brainstorm, depending on what kind of hand I had. If it was one that could beat elves, Id play it safe and name brainstorm. I would try to keep a hand with sweepers, lots or removal or edict type effects since they would be good against any of the decks I suspect he is playing.

This is just a rough example of the thought process I am talking about. A simple opening guide is not going to be helpful to anyone besides a newcomer to legacy.

[Kayradis]

I base my calls on what my opponent looks like.

Neck beard? Janky/Tier 3 decks
Well dressed? Combo/Control
Look-like-any-other-dude? Merfolks/Stoneblade/RUG

[Echelon]

I do that with esper stoneblade a lot when Ive got only 1 basic in hand but want to play a turn 2 stoneforge. I could easily have FoW in hand. Also, in that case the distinction between ANT in reanimator is huge if it is a show and tell you want to resolve. Resolving one could just make you lose if your opponent has a hand of griselbrand or ashen rider.

The problem with a guide on paper is it has to look something like this:

Opponent does swamp go, he could be playing:
Esper stoneblade
ANT
Pox
Reanimator
Doomsday
Tin fins
Nic Fit
Jund
Junk
Aluren
UB Tezzeret
BUG landstill
Dead Guy
Some others I am forgetting


It could be any of those decks. Yes some might be more popular in some areas, but that is one of those variables that your 6th sense needs to tune into. You can also eliminate some of the options if you pick up vibes on weather your opponent is the "want-to-be pro" type, a metagaming genius, or the kind of guy that always plays his pet deck. You can read into weather he is more Timmy/spike/johnny. What kind archtypes he would like (combo, control, aggro etc).

Example:

I sit down across from a roughly 5'9'' athletic built guy, looks to be in his mid 20s. Clean shaven, wearing hoodie, puts down a playmat from some non-legacy GP that happened a few years ago and is adorned with numerous SCG IQ, and LGS "top 8 pins" . I make small talk asking him where hes from and what other formats he plays, is legacy his favorite. Hes driven about 6 hours, he likes legacy alot, but he tends to play standard and limited the most these days(is clearly adapt at many formats, and falls into "want-to-be pro" type, probably cant focus entirely on legacy and therefor not a pet deck player, likely is playing a "good" deck that the pros recommend playing, and/or a deck that has been good for a long time and he knows well). He shuffles up his black sleeved deck but doesn't do so particularly efficiently or quickly (not a deck that cares about going to time). We make some more small talk, turns out we have a friend in common from the college he went to, where he is still going for a masters in physics (obviously a smart guy, and a pretty social guy, obviously good at the game, but to him making small talk and "having fun" is more important than showing a poker face the entire time and not letting any information out, puts him a bit more on the Timmy scale of things).

So in summery, just in the first 2 minutes of sitting down, if we are making assumptions here is what I would make:
- Hes good at magic, but no legacy expert per say.
- Hes probably playing a deck that has been a competitor for a long time, or a "good" deck the pros recommend.
- His deck isn't concerned with going to time.
- His deck is likely a bit more of a "timmy deck", it does big crazy fun things
- He might have a deck that rewards being really smart and good at math and stuff

Based on those assumptions I would say he is probably playing Elves. If it wasn't elves, Id guess UWR tempo, RUG tempo, show and tell or reanimotor. If I had a turn 1 cabal therapy on the play against this guy I would name deathrite shaman or brainstorm, depending on what kind of hand I had. If it was one that could beat elves, Id play it safe and name brainstorm. I would try to keep a hand with sweepers, lots or removal or edict type effects since they would be good against any of the decks I suspect he is playing.

This is just a rough example of the thought process I am talking about. A simple opening guide is not going to be helpful to anyone besides a newcomer to legacy.

Then we notice a number of white hairs on his shins. This indicates he has a small dog. White. Hair length suggests a terrier.

Yup. Sherlock plays Magic.

[Machahiko]

Here's a quick guide for you peeps:

If it plays Delver of Secrets, it's RUG.
If it plays Dark Ritual it's Ad Nauseam Tendrils
If it plays artifact lands it's Affinity
If it plays Noble Hierarch it's Bant
If it plays Mother of Runes it's Maverick
If it plays Show and Tell it's Sneak Show
If it plays Griselbrand it's Reanimator
If it plays Counterbalance it's Mono Blue Control
If it plays Swords to Plowshares it's a miracle!
If it plays Hymn to Tourach it's Team America
If it plays Deathrite Shaman it's Elves
If it plays plains it's Death and Taxes
If it plays Stoneforge Mystic it's Blade Control
If it plays Lightning Bolt it's UWR Delver
If it plays Goblin Guide it's Burn
If it plays Tarmogoyf it's Shardless BUG
If it plays Ad Nauseam it's T.E.S.
If it plays Cabal Therapy it's Nic Fit
If it plays Thoughtseize it's Pox
If it plays AEther Vial it's Merfolk
If it plays SDT it's Turbo Eldrazi
If it plays Chrome Mox it's Imperial Painter
If it plays High Tide, your guess is as good as mine, there's no knowing what this opponent is playing

You're welcome, this guide has been brought to you by SCG Legacy commentators. ;)

[Kayradis]

The last comment just want to make me necro the SCG Commentator Ranting Thread...

[Machahiko]

Well, I have to say that the commentators are doing just fine. The format takes a of time to know and from time to time it's really hard to talk 50 minutes non-stop when nothing is really happening. I myself cast some games and it takes a lot of effort to have something useful to say so I'm pretty forgiving about some of the stuff. It would still be very interesting to have some real legacy expert in the studio - would be interesting to hear what he thinks. It's fun to make fun of the silly conclusions they come up with sometimes, but I think it's part of the show.

Besides, they have one of the hardest clientele in the world I would imagine. :wink: