New Card Frame coming with M15

[Barook]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/281

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/2014/229fjk2sdalkfeatwk01_en_card_wastenot.jpg http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/2014/aiwesdfkw9242featwk01_en_card_walloffire.jpg

I don't mind smaller borders, but the new designer credit and holofoil stamp for rares/mythics look fucking stupid.

[Megadeus]

Possibly as a way to make counterfeiting more difficult?

[Barook]

Possibly as a way to make counterfeiting more difficult?
I haven't thought about it that way. Sounds like a reasonable explanation, especially with the recent surge of better fakes.

[Megadeus]

Was hoping for future sight frame!

[Aggro_zombies]

The problem is that the real high-value cards you'd want to counterfeit don't have this holofoil thing. See: dual lands, fetches, Legacy and Modern staples.

I guess they'd be targeting people trying to make copies of mythics for Standard, but I feel like the volume of cards being opened these days is so high that even the priciest mythics don't stay that way for long.

Also, the new card frame tweaks are...unattractive, to say the least. I don't like how jagged the new font looks and the colored frame not wrapping around the bottom is ugly. Does someone in WotC have a fetish for screwing with the card frame or something? They do shit like this all the time. You wanted to save your tweaks for a batch because you don't like tweaking too often? You made a new card frame for gods in Theros, one for Miracles in Avacyn Restored, a modified frame for werewolves in both sets of Innistrad block, one for levelers in Rise of the Eldrazi, and possibly more I'm forgetting. EDIT: Oh, right, and Time Spiral block.

But, eh, whatever. In terms of aesthetics, nothing will come close to the old card frames for me (although the ones we have now are somewhat easier to read).

[Zllig]

Was hoping for future sight frame!

I agree, I love that frame in a nonironic way.

However for this news what's the big deal. With Miracles and Enchantment/Artifacts in the last two sets they have been messing with the borders a lot lately. At this point I don't even really notice it. These do kind of look kind of ugly, but good thing I play Legacy and don't have to worry about it until they print something busted.

[ESG]

With Miracles and Enchantment/Artifacts in the last two sets they have been messing with the borders a lot lately. At this point I don't even really notice it. These do kind of look kind of ugly, but good thing I play Legacy and don't have to worry about it until they print something busted.

I second this. I was livid back in 2003 when WOTC got rid of the old frame; now I don't really care. There have been so many other frame and design changes that this just doesn't matter that much. The holofoil looks dorky and moves the design closer to Pokemon, but flip cards in Kamigawa and transform cards in Innistrad block were travesties by comparison.

[Megadeus]

I don't even care. It's such a slight difference. It isn't like the old to new border

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Good idea, although it's not really nice visually.

My main problem with the many versions of MtG frame is that when you play the cards of different editions (and this is esp. true for Eternal with its deepest pool), it's like when you're playing several different games at once. I know that it's too late to mourn the fact that there was no counterfeit protection at the very beginning of the game (who would have guessed what MtG will become over next years and that the Moxes will be worth their weight in gold), on the other hand, I still think that a watermark would work the same and won't be that... well, not really ugly, but the hologram is very, very unusual to say the least.

EDIT: Although I like that one may easily gain all the needed info about the particular card from the card itself, I dislike how they've done it. It's really ugly and it definitely should have been made in a smaller font. From now on, all the cards will look like an EU-normed pack of biscuits.

"Tarmogoyf, 4/5 package. Green monster. May contain small portions of soya, eggs, nuts, almonds and chilli."

[Erdvermampfa]

So do I understand this correctly...THIS will become the new standard frame? I mean the red card looks pretty damn ugly to be honest, it just looks so discontinuous in terms of colors. Luckily you won't notice it too much on black cards as seen on Waste Not but the aesthetics of non-black cards are hurt pretty much in my opinion. I honestly think that this isn't even a question of customization like it was with 8th edition, this just looks like a mutilation of the modern frame..

[Kage]

Preventing counterfeit? If I were to make counterfeit cards I'd start with duals fetches fows, leds and the like, not some shitty, and easily accessible standard cards.

Seriously the most expensive card in standard is Mutavault around 25 bucks, it seems kinda fair price for a format staple.

[Zombie]

Preventing counterfeit? If I were to make counterfeit cards I'd start with duals fetches fows, leds and the like, not some shitty, and easily accessible standard cards.

Seriously the most expensive card in standard is Mutavault around 25 bucks, it seems kinda fair price for a format staple.

Thing is, Standard stuff isn't checked near as thoroughly as horribly expensive Eternal cards that tend to be worn out a bit.

Also, Paint.tech:

http://i.imgur.com/SwKvLbA.png

Not hard, WotC.

[Julian23]

This is horrible! :cry: Each time they changed the frame, the cards looked continously less like a card of the color it represented.

Old frame cards looked really colorful and had this special feeling to them. I absolutely loved the bubbles in the frame of old black cards, for example. When they changed the frames last time it really hurt my eyes as there was a lot of flavor lost along the way. A lot! But now we have THIS and it really makes we wonder how this is supposed to be an improvement.

I am really really sad :cry:

[GoblinZ]

This is horrible! :cry: Each time they changed the frame, the cards looked continously less like a card of the color it represented.

Old frame cards looked really colorful and had this special feeling to them. I absolutely loved the bubbles in the frame of old black cards, for example. When they changed the frames last time it really hurt my eyes as there was a lot of flavor lost along the way. A lot! But now we have THIS and it really makes we wonder how this is supposed to be an improvement.

I am really really sad :cry:

totally agree. I directly quit the game when they they began to print cards with new frame last time.

[Higgs]

This is horrible! :cry: Each time they changed the frame, the cards looked continously less like a card of the color it represented.

Old frame cards looked really colorful and had this special feeling to them. I absolutely loved the bubbles in the frame of old black cards, for example. When they changed the frames last time it really hurt my eyes as there was a lot of flavor lost along the way. A lot! But now we have THIS and it really makes we wonder how this is supposed to be an improvement.

I am really really sad :cry:

^ Everything I want to say.

Plus, as a completely subjective comment, the design is flawed as the cutoff line for the unnecessarily shorter color frame doesn't align with anything meaningful and loses its function as a frame as it is not covering a meaningful area. If they wanted to spare some space for the new black bottom a better approach would have been to gradually fade the color to black. But black being a frame color itself this whole thing is still flawed. Any visual arts people in the forum, please back me up here. These are basic principles.

One last thing. If only wizards could say only for once, based on the community feedback, that they've made a mistake and decided not to go forward with a decision that would go a long ways towards earning respect from many of us long time players.

[HammafistRoob]

You guys find something new to cry about every week, or am I giving you too much credit? Seriously, the frame on the card could be a million donkeys and I wouldn't give two shits.

TL;DR- The Source: Your source for daycare training

[Looooooooo]

Aside from nostalgia this frame seems a lot worst than all the previous ones.
The stamp seems childish to say the least, but i like the informations on the bottom left corner.

- L

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/SwKvLbA.png

Not hard, WotC.
This looks acceptable. No idea why they had to make this ugly cut-off.

[Zombie]

This looks acceptable. No idea why they had to make this ugly cut-off.

They could also use that to expand the coloured border to the physical border of the card, doing away with the black outline entirely. More colour on the card, and the card feels bigger too.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Meh . . . they're ugly as hell, but it doesn't impact the way the game is played other than maybe the use of proxies from this set onward.

What really gets me is the reasoning behind each of the four major changes.

1. The font - Wow ... not only does no one give a fuck if you designed your own font or not, but when you compare Waste Not to Dying Wish, nothing seems to have changed! So useless and unnoticeable.

2. Holofoil stamp - So ... authenticating standard and limited fodder is a thing now?

3. Collection Information - You guys aren't Yu-Gi-Oh!: y'all have a working database where we can look up the collector information with ease. We don't need redundant (set, rarity, language) information to clutter the card either.

4. New card frame - It'd have been nice if didn't look so jarring and ugly: at the very least just get rid of that curve at the bottom so its more square.

Once again, meh changes, rage-inducing reasoning.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You guys find something new to cry about every week, or am I giving you too much credit? Seriously, the frame on the card could be a million donkeys and I wouldn't give two shits.

TL;DR- The Source: Your source for daycare training

Dude, some of us care about aesthetic of this game. Feel free to not care, if you wish to. I guess that you play chess with pieces made of curd and feces.

[HammafistRoob]

Dude, some of us care about aesthetic of this game. Feel free to not care, if you wish to. I guess that you play chess with pieces made of curd and feces.

No I use lucky cats feet and fingers of fallen enemies.

[Mewens]

I wish they'd taken this opportunity to move casting cost to the same side as the card name.

[TorpidNinja]

I wish they'd taken this opportunity to move casting cost to the same side as the card name.

What is this I don't even.

[Mewens]

Many people I've talked to felt that the futureshifted cards from Future Sight were easier to hold in a natural way while still displaying casting cost and name. I'm of the same opinion.

[H]

Since the color-shifted border from Planar Chaos is the only one I actually like and they said that it would never come back, I really don't care what they do, as long as it is not total clown shoes.

Luckily this is only partial clown shoes, it could have been far worse.

[Dice_Box]

Sweet, now I can find out what the Language on all my English cards are without having to put any effort into reading it.

Credit card like Foil stamp? Are you trying to tell me something Wizards?

Also, to those asking why a cards colour can not just replace the black boarder on the outside of the card, I would assume it's for the same reason full art sleaves are banned.

Dice.

[TsumiBand]

I'm not profoundly stirred by this change.

Actually, I have to say - I never cared for the generic "Mac OS" font in the 8th Ed frames, so at least this whole "NuMetal TrueType" thing is trying to get away from some of the sterility of that presentation.

I too am curious as to why they would take steps to prevent counterfeiting m15+ cards, when the higher dollar value would be in cards that have already been established; nothing short of a JTMS/Goyf or higher dollar value need apply, and this card frame doesn't apply to those guys -- much less anything approaching duals/Power/etc.

I guess I could do without the holographic safety seal at the bottom. It looks like where you break the meds out for the kids that have seizures whenever you play counterspells. If they still printed those, I'd totally understand their motivation. /snark

One thing I did note is that the extension of the 'blank space' at the bottom, as a continuation of their effort to separate the power and toughness box out of the original border. I seem to recall some statement back during the 8th Ed redesign where they felt its original implementation made it look too much like a throwaway or an afterthought, like it didn't bring enough attention to itself. By creating more "non-gamepiece" space at the bottom and drawing that p/t box out a little, it definitely continues that trend. Comparing it to the original Wall of Fire -- sentimentality aside, of course -- honestly after 11-or-so years of playing the game, I have to say I think I appreciate what they did there, even if it isn't familiar.

The first redux made me a little pissy, but that was a decade ago and I'd been playing for like 15 minutes. If you choked down the 8th Ed change, this one isn't even really that damn big a deal IMHO. It's like the difference in aesthetic between the movie Enterprise and Enterprise-A; there are enough changes to bother some, sure, but on the whole it is really so similar that it's hardly worth the acid reflux.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Ewwwww.

[Richard Cheese]

Well thank fuck for this. I can't tell you how many times I've just been staring at a card wondering what language it's printed in.

And the new Beleren font? That's some hot shit right there. Just when I'm thinking R&D can't get any more creepy-obsessed with Jace, they go and name the fucking font after him. Hat tips and champagne toasts all around. Still waiting on the official R&D Jace Erotic Fanfic though.

The border makes a lot of sense, I think eventually they'll just remove the distracting colors entirely and we can just assume that any card that isn't shit is blue.

[Barook]

Out of the five changes, 1-3) sound like "Our Hasbro laywers told us to do so." 4) sounds alright.

Now 5) is an interesting one - why bother after years not caring, just to bring back You Make The Card? Maybe they bring back "The Invitational" back, too? They're swiming in money, after all.

[alphastryk]

Not a fan, but I get the reasoning with the changes. New card face still looks wrong to me, so this will too.

[kiblast]

You want a small holographic thingy to tell fakes from real cards. OK. Just print holographic set symbols. Much easier, less disturbing graphic-wise.
Also, the ''designed by the Magic community'' flavor text on Waste Not is lame. Well, the card design itself is bullshit, but at least try to make it somewhat interesting with a brilliant flavor text. That's just cheesy.

I don't mind the new design of the card borders. They could print the cards swastika-shaped and we'd still buy them. But that Holographic thing right there just feels useless -mind you, I'm not saying that is ugly- it just feels misplaced.

[Dice_Box]

But it needs to be there. We all know when the nukes go off the currency in the wastes will be Magic cards. We need to make sure we can tell the real ones.

In all reality, to everyone saying that the real money cards have already been printed, your preaching to the converted. But if they have to, for say legal reasons, make the cards harder to counterfeit, they have to start somewhere. Since they can't start in the past, might as well start now.

[Malchar]

Credit card like Foil stamp? Are you trying to tell me something Wizards?

I'm waiting for the day that I can swipe my Jace 5.0 at a Starbucks and pay for coffee using my modo tickets.

[Barook]

I'm waiting for the day that I can swipe my Jace 5.0 at a Starbucks and pay for coffee using my modo tickets.
Do you get store credit instead of change as well?

[BVB09]

I strongly hate the new font as well as that "black thing" at the bottom of the card. It looks really bad in Wall of Fire, and I imagine it will look the same for all cards but black ones.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Just noticed and did not see anyone else mention it...
The shortened color frame has been printed on every planeswalker.

Somebody else said it first, but the hologram should have been the set symbol. :rolleyes:

[Octopusman]

... the design is flawed as the cutoff line for the unnecessarily shorter color frame doesn't align with anything meaningful and loses its function as a frame as it is not covering a meaningful area.

I totally agree. I think the critique of the design is very valid. This point alone is why I think it's yet another downgrade to the aesthetics. The "look" of my cards has always been important to me. This is why I specifically choose which basic lands I want to run or which version of a card's art I want a playset of.
Two cents.

[Purgatory]

official R&D Jace Erotic Fanfic.

Nice oxymoron. :)

On a serious note, all of these changes are complete mehs. I like the old frame as much as the next guy, but I also like the 8th one a lot, but for different reasons.

The holo-foiling looks especially wonky, but I think I'll manage to adjust for that as well.

[Barook]

Still waiting on the official R&D Jace Erotic Fanfic though.
Didn't Jace bone Liliana at some point in the storyline?


Just noticed and did not see anyone else mention it...
The shortened color frame has been printed on every planeswalker.
Nice catch. But Planeswalkers have a frame with different colors (see: Chandra, Pyromaster) which makes it less notiable.

I can see that they based the new frame of the Planeswalker frame, but the stronger colors of the regular frame just clash too much with the black on any non-black card.

[wcm8]

People with autism may:
Have unusual distress when routines are changed
Show unusual attachments to objects

Communication problems may include:
Cannot start or maintain a social conversation
Communicates with gestures instead of words

Social interaction:
Does not make friends
Is withdrawn
May treat others as if they are objects
Prefers to spend time alone, rather than with others
Shows a lack of empathy

Play:
Prefers solitary or ritualistic play

Behaviors:
"Acts up" with intense tantrums
Gets stuck on a single topic or task (perseveration)
Has very narrow interests
Is overactive or very passive
Shows aggression to others or self
Shows a strong need for sameness

[EpicLevelCommoner]

People with autism may:
Have unusual distress when routines are changed
Show unusual attachments to objects

Communication problems may include:
Cannot start or maintain a social conversation
Communicates with gestures instead of words

Social interaction:
Does not make friends
Is withdrawn
May treat others as if they are objects
Prefers to spend time alone, rather than with others
Shows a lack of empathy

Play:
Prefers solitary or ritualistic play

Behaviors:
"Acts up" with intense tantrums
Gets stuck on a single topic or task (perseveration)
Has very narrow interests
Is overactive or very passive
Shows aggression to others or self
Shows a strong need for sameness

What is with people on this forum using Autism as an insult? This is the second or third time I've seen this shit here, and probably the second or third time I'm gonna say the following: I have Asperger's syndrome (an Autistic Spectrum disorder like Autism).

[Ellomdian]

While I enjoy reading the variety of opinions about the new frame, there is one regular sentiment that should probably just go away - The 'Designer Credit' isn't a function of the new design, it's a replacement for the flavor text on a small number of cards. To be perfectly honest, I would be very surprised if we saw it again outside of special cards (YMTC, possible invitational replacement, etc...)

[zulander]

I think it looks pretty good. Stop crying about change people.

[TeenieBopper]

Some of you guys need to chill the fuck out. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/259)

[Dice_Box]

Humans, by nature, are resistant to change. The mental attachment and feeling that comes with what we know, what we understand, is a small element of safety to us. We tend to resist what is new until proven to be of benefit. Examples such as New Coke come to mind. While many that tasted it preferred it to Old Coke, people would rather get Agresive at the testers than change themselves.

So throwing around insults like suggesting that people here all have Autism is foolish, people are people. Humans act in mostly predictable ways to outside stimulus. In the case of change, we tend to resist. It's really quite simple.

[Malakai]

Most of the comments in this thread aren't complaining about change, they're complaining about how poorly those changes were implemented. You named your font "Beleren" when a large contingent of players already suspect favoritism to blue? Who is the collected information on the bottom of the car _for_? Why didn't you just make the holo-foil thingy the set symbol? Why is the interior of the card extending past its own border? Wouldn't the planeswalker frame have done everything you wanted already?

And the biggest offense of all: Why didn't you do this on a small number of cards first, to measure the community's response?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You want a small holographic thingy to tell fakes from real cards. OK. Just print holographic set symbols. Much easier, less disturbing graphic-wise.

That's the first thing that occured on my mind. Alas, WotC decided otherwise...



What is with people on this forum using Autism as an insult? This is the second or third time I've seen this shit here, and probably the second or third time I'm gonna say the following: I have Asperger's syndrome (an Autistic Spectrum disorder like Autism).
Maybe they think how clever and funny they are? Instead of thinking out pathetic jokes, maybe they could spend some time learning how to respect the opinions of other people.

wcm8, for some of us the aesthetics of a card matter. If you don't care about the change, simply don't follow this thread. I will repeat myself, but w/e: this change further fragmentizes the visual nature of the game and the board states will even more look like if people play several different games at once. You don't care and even have fun of those members of your community that care? Ok, don't care. Simply leave the thread and all is fine. But what is the reason to laugh on frustrated people? Is your life so bad or your ego so hurt that you need to annoy the ppl that share your hobby?
I don't understand you. And although I really appreciate your thoughts on Can Thresh (or generally on Tempo.dec), I'm really bothered by your post and for me you just lost your credit.


Dear mods, ther are two threads on this matter, please, could you merge them together?

_____________________________________
My new sig:
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff388/aleksandr4/Wall_of_Barcode_zps4b5b0fd7.jpg

[TeenieBopper]

And the biggest offense of all: Why didn't you do this on a small number of cards first, to measure the community's response?

...

Have you read most of the responses in this thread?

Look. The new frame is fine. Just like the old new frame is fine. Just like every other change WotC has made has been generally fine. If there's one thing I've learned over almost 20 years of Magic, it's that WotC isn't dumb, and that the Magic community as a whole are shrill, hyperbolic whiners.

[Stan]

What is with people on this forum using Autism as an insult? This is the second or third time I've seen this shit here, and probably the second or third time I'm gonna say the following: I have Asperger's syndrome (an Autistic Spectrum disorder like Autism).

Would you prefer your children won't have it? If the answer is yes, then it's a negative trait, and it's human nature to use negative traits as an insult. Just because you happen to suffer from it doesn't mean people can't swing that stick at their online foes. A thick skin is a very useful thing to have when one uses these gaming forums.

[Stan]

...

Have you read most of the responses in this thread?

Look. The new frame is fine. Just like the old new frame is fine. Just like every other change WotC has made has been generally fine. If there's one thing I've learned over almost 20 years of Magic, it's that WotC isn't dumb, and that the Magic community as a whole are shrill, hyperbolic whiners.

The card frame looks horrible, mainly due to that coloured frame that ends too high at the bottom of the card. But I won't quit over it, so there's no use to whine too much about it. Anyhow, there's a theory in anthropology that mankind developed speech in order to gossip. My personal theory is that we developed it so we could complain better.

[TsumiBand]

What is with people on this forum using Autism as an insult? This is the second or third time I've seen this shit here, and probably the second or third time I'm gonna say the following: I have Asperger's syndrome (an Autistic Spectrum disorder like Autism).

+1. How many of us are stuck in the elementary school playground, here? I've said as much before, but Eternal players used to talk about "community" like it was more than just a head count for the people involved. I don't think anyone expects a round of Kumbaya before a tourney or obligatory Gold Stars for attending Legacy events, but there's no call for this junk anymore.

Anyway, I don't perceive the card frame as a big deal. It just seems funny to institute this kind of counterfeiting measure at this point in the game, but who knows; perhaps the future is longer than the past in terms of the items which lend themselves to the most illicit reproductions. Or, maybe someone knows something I don't know, and there's more reason to risk selling phony Standard junk than there is to go with a sure bet and whip up a fake 20+ year-old Lotus. I dunno.


Would you prefer your children won't have it? If the answer is yes, then it's a negative trait, and it's human nature to use negative traits as an insult. Just because you happen to suffer from it doesn't mean people can't swing that stick at their online foes. A thick skin is a very useful thing to have when one uses these gaming forums.

If this isn't trollbait, you are just plain missing the forest for the trees. For better or worse, The Source isn't the venue to discuss the breadth and depth of your misunderstanding.

[Koby]

I fucking love the new frames. Well, not like I love the old frame sense, but rather that now I'll have a much easier time sorting through boxes of cards.

That begs the question of how much of the new cards I'll buy. At the current trend started with Gatecrash, likely next to zero.

[Lord Seth]

Just noticed and did not see anyone else mention it...
The shortened color frame has been printed on every planeswalker.
That's true, but I think the style they've used on planeswalkers looks a lot better than the new one. Though I suppose it helps that planeswalkers get extended art (sort of), and are special cards so a different style fits better.

[Derklord]

Preventing counterfeit? If I were to make counterfeit cards I'd start with duals fetches fows, leds and the like, not some shitty, and easily accessible standard cards.

Seriously the most expensive card in standard is Mutavault around 25 bucks, it seems kinda fair price for a format staple.*Puts on tinfoil hat* That's all because they are going to reprint duals cards and sell them individually.

On a serious note, the irony that thay admit the change-for-the-sake-of-change to slivers' design sucked but are still doing just exactly the same with card frames makes me wanna laugh and cry at the same time.

[Stan]

If this isn't trollbait, you are just plain missing the forest for the trees. For better or worse, The Source isn't the venue to discuss the breadth and depth of your misunderstanding.

Declaring in the open 'I have this or that, don't you dare mock me with it' on a gaming forum of all places (even one as civilized as this one) is the ultimate trollbait.

I'm 34. I'm overweight and in way worse condition than the average male of my age in my country is. You would not know this if I hadn't chosen to share this information with you. If I'd care about any of that, and if I'd be offended, insulted or otherwise butthurt that some guys I have never met would insult me with that, I'd be a fool for sharing that information. But I couldn't possibly care less. On the other hand, somebody with whatever disorder you can think of, who is sensitive about it and feels insulted if his disorder is used as an insult, who then throws it out in the open for sme quick attention, that person can be called foolish.

[DLifshitz]

The new border looks like someone made a fixed-size border and a text box, and then tried to fit in too much text, causing the text box to extend over the border.

[Star|Scream]

ban brainstorm

[wcm8]

^godwin's law

I'm not going to defend my previous post, because it is immature and potentially inflammatory (and if a moderator truly finds it repulsive, I'd be happy to delete it). However, I find it fairly absurd that something meant as a light-hearted jest at the 'spergin' out' going on over any sort of change in MtG is met with a bunch of outrage, and yet the blatantly misogynist, homophobic, and otherwise bigoted remarks on The Source go completely untouched.

FWIW, I acknowledge my own autistic behaviors and make light of them, rather than go all up in arms about something that wasn't even directed at any particular individual. Take the white-knighting back to Reddit.

[clavio]

Some of you guys need to chill the fuck out. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/259)

I think some of these things are really shitty. Not Magic is over shitty, but quite shitty. Nobody liked the new slivers, flip cards would be awful if more than one was playable, and the reserved list puts a hard cap on how many people can play eternal formats without proxies. I personally also think that mythic rarity is bullshit, they said that they wouldn't just print all the best cards as mythic, but then that was exactly what happened. I still miss damage on the stack.

But yeah, this new frame is no big deal.

[TsumiBand]

^godwin's law

I'm not going to defend my previous post, because it is immature and potentially inflammatory (and if a moderator truly finds it repulsive, I'd be happy to delete it). However, I find it fairly absurd that something meant as a light-hearted jest at the 'spergin' out' going on over any sort of change in MtG is met with a bunch of outrage, and yet the blatantly misogynist, homophobic, and otherwise bigoted remarks on The Source go completely untouched.

FWIW, I acknowledge my own autistic behaviors and make light of them, rather than go all up in arms about something that wasn't even directed at any particular individual. Take the white-knighting back to Reddit.

Yeah I was wondering how many posts would have to appear before someone drug out the old 'boooo white knighting booooo' nonsense.

For what it's worth, I personally try to pick my rants regarding the above "misogynistic etc" remarks, but yeah, it's all garbage and doesn't lead to productive discussion. Decks don't "rape" each other, calling "dibs" on Sourcer's newborn baby girls is fucked up and making 'tee-hee ur retard' comments when someone wants to make an oblique comment on the obsessive nature of some people's attention to detail belies their intelligence and presumably your own.

I don't rail on everything because invariably people would rather quash the conversation before it begins by trolling, accusing people of white-knighting, or otherwise just drowning the conversation out. But honestly, the language that is used to describe the ideas, individuals, and events within the gaming community is a goddamned blight on those that participate.

I don't buy into the "thick skin" arguments or the "political over-correctness" garbage for a single minute - I would instead submit that any group of individuals large enough to be labeled and identified would do well to have self-control and introspection enough to try and catch themselves in the act of invoking base and derogatory language that keeps people out or makes others seem entirely unwelcome, or takes easy jabs and people and ideas on the basis of perceived mental health, sexuality, race, any of that.

Go ahead and let me know how I'm some kind of idealist moron for expecting people to communicate in ways that don't involve invoking the Autism spectrum or women or some other common horse shit thing that gets thrown around. I've heard it all and I still don't care. We're talking about Magic cards and people are copy-pasting from Cliff Notes: DSM-IV in order to invoke logical fallacies against people's arguments. Maybe that's the frustrating part; instead of making a meaningful contribution to a thread, some people just poop on the thread by interjecting the "Aw not THIS shit again" sentiment while sounding racist/sexist/bigoted/take your pick. There's no effort or intellect involved in the process, at all. I don't think the whole approach here is to go, "Oh toughen up, people talk shit, whatcha gonna do about it" - there's something to be gained from turning around and telling an individual/the community that it really is unacceptable, and next time you might strive for some relevance or cogent discussion.

[tyleredw]

It seems like no one in this thread so far (unless i missed it, in which, my mistake) has even mentioned the biggest reason why they made the bottom black with all the collector information.

The intention was to make the bottom of the card be machine readable, and have all the information necessary to tell what card it is, and what language. You can argue that they implementation of this they did isn't the best possible aesthetic choice, but that's something you can always argue, and is completely subjective.

However, as a concept, i think the idea of having the machine readable information there is a REALLY good one. It benefits wizards, stores, and players alike in a relatively future-proof way. Wizards can now be able to quickly scan cards to verify that their production methods are accurate, and nix issues with extra rares getting placed into boosters, or other such mishaps. Stores can now come up with new methods to easily manage their inventory. Players can now use the machine readable corner to do all sorts of things, such as creating phone apps that you can scan the corner of the card as if it were a QR code, and pull up information on pricing or whatever you want. It leaves room for lots of opportunity on the parts of all parties.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

^godwin's law

I'm not going to defend my previous post, because it is immature and potentially inflammatory (and if a moderator truly finds it repulsive, I'd be happy to delete it). However, I find it fairly absurd that something meant as a light-hearted jest at the 'spergin' out' going on over any sort of change in MtG is met with a bunch of outrage, and yet the blatantly misogynist, homophobic, and otherwise bigoted remarks on The Source go completely untouched.

FWIW, I acknowledge my own autistic behaviors and make light of them, rather than go all up in arms about something that wasn't even directed at any particular individual. Take the white-knighting back to Reddit.

Ok, so when Source is full of "blatantly misogynist, homophobic, and otherwise bigoted remarks", lets make other " immature and potentially inflammatory" post. I see that there's a lot that I need to learn...
Oh wait! Isn't this the forum where rape jokes are found funny? Clever guys, indeed. You definitely should continue asking why MtG players are scorned upon. If the only possibility how to discuss anything on this board is to throw "shut up, don't be butthurt" at each other, I'm fine with it, just don't expect me to join such a discussion.

I'm not white-knighting anyone, if your remark was directed at me. I simply find your "joke" stupid and unnecessary (I also find Teeniebopper's remarks stupid and unnecessary, but what would you expect from The Source Asshole?), so I'm letting you know that. Do whatever you want to do with this info.


EDIT: ^^ Tsumi got it.
---

I already wrote my reasons why I dislike this change: it brings further and unnecessary fragmentation to the game for absolutely no good reason, the new card is clustered with unneeded information, it's a change for the change. Instead of dicking around with this, WotC should rather start massive reprints on non-RL old-frame cards so that they're available in new frame.

Speaking of the change and the human nature that fears it: I admit that I like the old frame the most, simply for nostalgia reasons and also because IMAO it was more appropriated to fantasy/s&s than the new frame which seems to me more like a scifi/horror. (Maybe this is due to the illustrations, as where there were Shivan Dragons, now there are Macabre Waltzes and other fugly crap.) Otoh, I like how the Modern frame made the cards sorted, how they are clear, and except for the Mirrodin and the trouble with white/artifacts, there's nothing I'd really dislike. But, do you know which frame I like the most? Future Sight future-shifted one it is.I find it amazing, and I'd love if WotC decide to use it, although it's completely different than all the others. For the price of future-shifted frame I'd welcome the further fragmentation. For the price of M15 frame? Not exactly...

[TsumiBand]

It seems like no one in this thread so far (unless i missed it, in which, my mistake) has even mentioned the biggest reason why they made the bottom black with all the collector information.

The intention was to make the bottom of the card be machine readable, and have all the information necessary to tell what card it is, and what language. You can argue that they implementation of this they did isn't the best possible aesthetic choice, but that's something you can always argue, and is completely subjective.

However, as a concept, i think the idea of having the machine readable information there is a REALLY good one. It benefits wizards, stores, and players alike in a relatively future-proof way. Wizards can now be able to quickly scan cards to verify that their production methods are accurate, and nix issues with extra rares getting placed into boosters, or other such mishaps. Stores can now come up with new methods to easily manage their inventory. Players can now use the machine readable corner to do all sorts of things, such as creating phone apps that you can scan the corner of the card as if it were a QR code, and pull up information on pricing or whatever you want. It leaves room for lots of opportunity on the parts of all parties.

I saw that as well. That is a fairly interesting interaction that does have some interesting potential.

Of course the first thing I envisioned was some ill-advised app like that weird card scanner for the GBA that like… loaded a weird game if you swiped your card? Don't quite remember what that thing was or if it even caught on enough for anyone to know what I'm talking about. I only saw the cards at like Target one time, I have no idea if it ever became 'a thing'.

[thecrav]

This entire conversation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfrvnpfmsxY)

[shrubs]

Of course the first thing I envisioned was some ill-advised app like that weird card scanner for the GBA that like… loaded a weird game if you swiped your card? Don't quite remember what that thing was or if it even caught on enough for anyone to know what I'm talking about. I only saw the cards at like Target one time, I have no idea if it ever became 'a thing'.

The E-Reader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_e-Reader)! I had one and it was awesome, but never more than an a odd diversion. The new border happens to reminds me of the E-reader Pokemon cards (http://serebii.net/card/expedition/006.shtml), not as extreme but still.

The design does seem to lack certain artistic aesthetics, and the old borders will always be my favorite. Like others have said, the holograms should be either in the set symbol or a throwback to the foil star, and I still think the language identifier is redundant. It's not going to stop me from buying cards, but it's not like I was buying packs to begin with. So a big "meh" from me.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

^godwin's law

I'm not going to defend my previous post, because it is immature and potentially inflammatory (and if a moderator truly finds it repulsive, I'd be happy to delete it). However, I find it fairly absurd that something meant as a light-hearted jest at the 'spergin' out' going on over any sort of change in MtG is met with a bunch of outrage, and yet the blatantly misogynist, homophobic, and otherwise bigoted remarks on The Source go completely untouched.

FWIW, I acknowledge my own autistic behaviors and make light of them, rather than go all up in arms about something that wasn't even directed at any particular individual. Take the white-knighting back to Reddit.

Hmm ... fair enough ... I suppose I just need to take a step back and realize that it wasn't directed to me at all.

Sorry, for getting all up in arms.

[Plague Sliver]

ONLY four pages of discussions to bitch about new card frame? C'mon guys, you can do better than that. Way to drop the ball. :tongue:

It would have been nice for them to create a Future Sight or more radical design, but the incremental change suggests that it's a anti-counterfeiting measure more than anything else. From more than 10 feet away you can't tell the difference, anyway.

I think the time is right to create overlay card sleeves that cosmetically change cards - make 'em for old/modern cards. Could be fun to add customization to casual play, and on the front side you couldn't really cheat off it anyways. Kind of like "alterations for the masses."

Clearly people are passionate enough about (1) being unique and (2) stating a preference for card templates.

[tyleredw]

ONLY four pages of discussions to bitch about new card frame? C'mon guys, you can do better than that. Way to drop the ball. :tongue:

It would have been nice for them to create a Future Sight or more radical design, but the incremental change suggests that it's a anti-counterfeiting measure more than anything else. From more than 10 feet away you can't tell the difference, anyway.

I think the time is right to create overlay card sleeves that cosmetically change cards - make 'em for old/modern cards. Could be fun to add customization to casual play, and on the front side you couldn't really cheat off it anyways. Kind of like "alterations for the masses."

Clearly people are passionate enough about (1) being unique and (2) stating a preference for card templates.

Wouldn't making sleeves with front overlays that are specifically magic related be a terrible idea for any sleeve making company? It would mean they'd be useless for any card game that shares the same card size but isn't magic, and be useless for any deck that has a large number of different card frames. Like team America with future sight border tombstalkers, new border abrupt decays, and old border cards would probably be too wonky of a combination for those sleeves to be used. Or if you only wanted to sleeve some cards of the deck with them, then you run the possibility of the sleeves being different thicknesses, etc. The company would sell very few of a product like that, which seems like a bad place to be when it would probably cost more to produce sleeves with designs instead of clear plastic in the first place.

[Plague Sliver]

Haha...that's why I'm not a businessman and I give crappy ideas away for free :cool:

Back (slightly) on topic though, I wish they could make the foils or chase cards cooler in Magic - and no I don't mean FTV foiling process. We have these re-designed frames, but bring out something more exciting that players will want to open packs for.

I guess folded $100 bills will cause too many complaints for how it's folded, and will result in too much violence in drafts.

[majikal]

<Tin-foil hat>

What if the reason they didn't do away with the Reserved List before was that they didn't have solid anti-counterfeiting measures in place?

Think about it - they don't want to flood the market with newer versions of highly collectible cards, which by all accounts are much easier to forge than old ones, because they can't control the circulation with forgery so rampant. But now, they have a way to guarantee the authenticity of their cards with holographic stamps and a proprietary font, so the possibilities are endless!

Ladies and gentlemen, this may be a step towards the abolition of the Reserved List and authenticated reprints of older cards in non-premium form.

</tin-foil hat>

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wow! If this could be true!

[TsumiBand]

<Tin-foil hat>

What if the reason they didn't do away with the Reserved List before was that they didn't have solid anti-counterfeiting measures in place?

Think about it - they don't want to flood the market with newer versions of highly collectible cards, which by all accounts are much easier to forge than old ones, because they can't control the circulation with forgery so rampant. But now, they have a way to guarantee the authenticity of their cards with holographic stamps and a proprietary font, so the possibilities are endless!

Ladies and gentlemen, this may be a step towards the abolition of the Reserved List and authenticated reprints of older cards in non-premium form.

</tin-foil hat>

Well, at least I wasn't the first one to say it.

They even briefly alluded to the Reserve List "because Modern Masters is totally just like Chronicles" in the mothership article about why these changes came about. I didn't see what that had to do with anything apart from begging the question, so I tried not to think about it.


As good as our four main booster releases were last year (more on them later), the real standout product of 2013, in my mind, is Modern Masters. It was a scary set to work on, as the last product we made with the primary goal of increasing availability of older cards was Chronicles back in 1995, the poor handling of which led to sufficient consumer backlash that ended up with my predecessors here at Wizards of the Coast creating the Reserved List of cards we're forbidding ourselves from reprinting.

Enter the endless cascades of sentence parsing -- ooh, what does it mean, 'forbidding ourselves'?? It must mean that one day, maybe not today maybe not tomorrow… urp urp urp

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Some of you guys need to chill the fuck out. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/259)I think some of these things are really shitty. Not Magic is over shitty, but quite shitty. Nobody liked the new slivers, flip cards would be awful if more than one was playable, and the reserved list puts a hard cap on how many people can play eternal formats without proxies. I personally also think that mythic rarity is bullshit, they said that they wouldn't just print all the best cards as mythic, but then that was exactly what happened. I still miss damage on the stack.

But yeah, this new frame is no big deal.

I just read the article. What a blather. MaRo would be a great politician or insurance agent, his ability to sell and promote crap is outstanding.

[Mr.C]

Really good counterfeiting already exists. They're trying to protect their intellectual property and make it easier for players to identify real cards.

If you go online right now, you can buy stuff like this from China:

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/1532781119/wholesale_Magic_The_Gathering_full_card_listing.jpg

Yes, the text on Tarmogoyf looks fucked, but that Liliana looks pretty damn good, no?

From the same website:

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/1532783756/wholesale_Magic_The_Gathering_Store_for_joy.jpg

It's Bed Decks Palyer's wet dream come true!

[Deviruchi]

I like the idea that they want to make sure future cards are more safe from counterfeiting but why this holo think has to be in a card text space? Also why this color frame can't curve to the point where the card text space ends?

[Arsenal]

The idea behind these changes are sound and reasonable. The execution and implementation of these changes seem hamfisted and clunky. Very inelegant redesign of the card frame.

[Dzra]

The idea behind these changes are sound and reasonable. The execution and implementation of these changes seem hamfisted and clunky. Very inelegant redesign of the card frame.

I agree. If they wanted to add a foil thing to make counterfeiting difficult, why not just make the little set symbol foil? It'd be a whole lot less invasive and possibly even nice to look at. Overall, I suppose it doesn't matter... just clunky.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's Bed Decks Palyer's wet dream come true!

Sorry?

[Arsenal]

Overall, I suppose it doesn't matter... just clunky.

Yeah, I mean, it'll have no impact on gameplay, which is the most important aspect, but Magic is unique from most other games in that the aesthetics and visual play a large role in the enjoyment of players. Making something uglier when the same goals could've been accomplished with a more elegant design just seems lazy and rushed.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I think I'll let someone else describe my reaction to the new tweaks...

http://imgur.com/azhhGte.jpg

[prateta]

Really good counterfeiting already exists. They're trying to protect their intellectual property and make it easier for players to identify real cards.

If you go online right now, you can buy stuff like this from China:

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/1532781119/wholesale_Magic_The_Gathering_full_card_listing.jpg

Yes, the text on Tarmogoyf looks fucked, but that Liliana looks pretty damn good, no?

From the same website:

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/1532783756/wholesale_Magic_The_Gathering_Store_for_joy.jpg

It's Bed Decks Palyer's wet dream come true!

Build ALL the decks! Long live the chinese! :D

[UnderwaterGuy]

I spent most of 2013 leading the design of M15, an ambitious set that will introduce a few new things to the game, not the least of which is an update to the existing card frame.

I've got a bad feeling that I'll be quiting magic this summer. Sounds like another rules change.

[Higgs]

Really good counterfeiting already exists. They're trying to protect their intellectual property and make it easier for players to identify real cards.

If you go online right now, you can buy stuff like this from China:

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/1532781119/wholesale_Magic_The_Gathering_full_card_listing.jpg



UV finish with blue paper.. Spooky.

[kc.hogan]

The modern border is already ugly. Is this really that much worse?

Also, now people on eBay have no excuse to correctly list the language of the ferrin' cards they're selling. Sure, I can read the damn card and know the difference between French and Portuguese, but Xx_card_killa690101 from Nowhere, Nebraska may not be so blessed with a cursory understanding of the product he's selling.

Anyway, it's not that bad.

[kaiserruhsam]

I just read the article. What a blather. MaRo would be a great politician or insurance agent, his ability to sell and promote crap is outstanding.

Aaron wrote the article, not Mark.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's also worth noting that WotC basically doesn't ever admit that things didn't go over well with a set until the product is out of Standard. You need to buy that shit, man, their business ain't gonna run itself.

Aaron has spoken frankly in the past about what has and hasn't worked for sets that were then not in Standard. Reading his article, I'm guessing a couple things:

1) Starting off with Modern Masters - an all-reprint set - suggests this was a very lukewarm year for them. Either that, or they were abjectly terrified that MM would end the Magic world as we know it.

2) Specifically mentioning Slivers suggests there was a bigger backlash than they expected or than he's letting on. That makes sense from my experience, because almost everyone I talked to about it either didn't care or didn't like some aspect of the new Slivers.

The new card frame is pretty whatever at the end of the day. The Planar Chaos colorshifted card frame is the modern card frame done right and it's not coming back, so I guess they can only make things uglier from here. I just wish they would fuck with the card frame less often because I don't like having eleventy bajillion different-looking frames in my decks.

[Dzra]

2) Specifically mentioning Slivers suggests there was a bigger backlash than they expected or than he's letting on. That makes sense from my experience, because almost everyone I talked to about it either didn't care or didn't like some aspect of the new Slivers.

I'm just making a stab in the dark about this one, but I wonder if they were disappointed with their attempt to bring some of the eternal/casual/edh players back to Standard. Slivers were an obvious throwback to when a lot of us eternal players started playing magic, so I wonder if they had anticipated more excitement than they got from us.

[Dan Turner]

Talked to a person from the hong kong factory. They have about 60 cards to choose from...all the blue duals all the fetches all the shocks and pretty much most of the $100+ legacy stuff. Ordered in decks of 55 cards that you choose from the list. 20 decks run $450 smallest order or 1000 decks for $1200 shipped. 55,000 underground seas to wallpaper my house lol.

Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.

[Dan Turner]

On another not never buying anything via ebay ever again. Possibly never online at all.

Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.

[TsumiBand]

I'm just making a stab in the dark about this one, but I wonder if they were disappointed with their attempt to bring some of the eternal/casual/edh players back to Standard. Slivers were an obvious throwback to when a lot of us eternal players started playing magic, so I wonder if they had anticipated more excitement than they got from us.

Major shocker, that. "Hunh, our market research indicates some people actually dig nostalgia. So let's reintroduce Slivers again, only fuck with them real bad and make them unrecognizable as Slivers except because they'll all say "Sliver" in the right places so people don't go 'oh shit I thought it was an Ally, my badt' and I bet that people will just not even notice the fucking difference"

I mean 'throwbacks' are exactly that, typically. How tough was this to conceptualize? Pepsi Throwback has fucking sugar in it. Pseudo-old band shirts they sell at the mall don't have, like, the guys from Nazareth dressed in Limp Bizkit gear; shit, half the time they come "pre-worn out" like someone's dad actually got pissed on during cokesex while wearing it in 197__.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Aaron wrote the article, not Mark.
What is this I don't even.




Twenty Things That Were Going To Kill Magic
Mark Rosewater
Monday, August 05, 2013 http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/authorpics/authorpic_markrosewater.jpg

[Higgs]

Bed Decks Player, you are quickly becoming my favorite person on the forums.

About the Hong Kong factory thing, if this exists how do you know that people don't sell these fake cards to dealers and the cards you buy from them are real?

And Aaron's comments about the new slivers is just a prime example of their general arrogance imo. Even when he is saying that they've made a mistake, he is dancing around the sentence so much that he can't just flat out say that it was a mistake, like a man.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Bed Decks Player, you are quickly becoming my favorite person on the forums.
:laugh:



About the Hong Kong factory thing, if this exists how do you know that people don't sell these fake cards to dealers and the cards you buy from them are real?
Yep, this is what scares me a lot. That's why I like the holo-thing, because it makes the counterfeits at least a bit more hard/expensive to make. Sadly there's nothing they can do about P9 and all other money cards, as not even the massive scale reprints would have any effect on the price of ABU stuff [enter Beta BoP/WoG example here] RL notwithstanding. Thus they'd be still counterfeited.

_____________


And Aaron's comments about the new slivers is just a prime example of their general arrogance imo. Even when he is saying that they've made a mistake, he is dancing around the sentence so much that he can't just flat out say that it was a mistake, like a man.
MaRo's article is even better:



Over the years, the Reserved List has remained a contentious issue, with players constantly calling for its abolishment but Wizards of the Coast saying it's going to honor its promise and has vowed to retain it.
So be it. Clever guys, really clever. Oh, is this a Black Lotus with "Made in China" sign? How come?



The Sixth Edition rules were the largest rules change the game had ever seen. The stack was introduced, numerous rules went away, and the sequence of the turn was tightened up. It fundamentally changed the way the game was played and many of the established players didn't like it one bit. They had spent years learning the game and weren't happy to have to relearn numerous aspects. After the introduction of Standard, I believe this change created the loudest outcry from the public.
Dude, if only you weren't an ignorant self-loving moron, you would have realized that the only thing that players disliked back in 1999 was "combat dmg on stack" rule, as it was counterintuitive, unnecessary and opened space for Mogg Fanatic tricks that were completely stupid.



As this new frame first appeared in Eighth Edition, they were referred to as the Eighth Edition card frames.

This change had a huge impact on how the cards looked and many players objected to the shift. They felt the new layout had less of a fantasy feel and moved the game away from its roots. This was another very loud outcry with many words written both in articles and on message boards...
"...and that's why we mess with the frames even more."



They disliked that the new cards would be harder to get than other card types that each had cards in all — at the time — three rarities. They disliked that they required you playing creatures. They disliked that they were not that easy to understand.
Wow, MaRo is such a pathetic loser. I lack words.
The only trouble with PWs is that they were really hard to fit into the game that was designed without them in mind and that had 15 years of non-PW history. The PW rules stick out like a sore thumb...



For starters, "damage on the stack" was removed. R&D felt that it created situations that didn't feel natural and that removing it would lead to more dynamic play.
Wait wut? I thought that WE, the players, were wrong when 6th Edition came out. But now I see that we were also wrong when 10th Edition came out. What's this? MaRo, you're such a babbler it's not even posible.



Some players felt the Magic back was a hard-and-fast rule that could never be broken, so the idea of cards without one upset them greatly.

They required sleeves or a checklist card. They messed up Draft. They made players have to de-sleeve and flip them over. Every flaw was pointed out time and time again. Despite that, though, they went on to be the highest-ranked mechanical component in Innistrad and Dark Ascension. There was even a large outcry when the last set in the block, Avacyn Restored, didn't have any.
So you just basically list all the cons os the transform cards, then fabricate an outcry when they ceased to show up, and even have guts to tell us we're wrong? What's wrong with you, dude? Also, IE/CE are banned, but this awful stuff is legal? Do you have any more of your weed?



This change was a number of things, from the replacement of the ELO rating system to Planeswalker Points...
...and that was when I ceased to care about my rating. PW Points? For cereous?


Really, reading this guy's articles is like a lesson in dialectical historism.
"Everything that The Party ever done is right. There were no bad decisions made, and even though it may seem that sometimes The Party contradicted itself, or made two directly opposed decisions, in fact they were always good and The Party was always right. You need to see all of them in right historical perspective."

[Barook]

It's also worth noting that WotC basically doesn't ever admit that things didn't go over well with a set until the product is out of Standard. You need to buy that shit, man, their business ain't gonna run itself.

Aaron has spoken frankly in the past about what has and hasn't worked for sets that were then not in Standard. Reading his article, I'm guessing a couple things:

1) Starting off with Modern Masters - an all-reprint set - suggests this was a very lukewarm year for them. Either that, or they were abjectly terrified that MM would end the Magic world as we know it.

2) Specifically mentioning Slivers suggests there was a bigger backlash than they expected or than he's letting on. That makes sense from my experience, because almost everyone I talked to about it either didn't care or didn't like some aspect of the new Slivers.

The new card frame is pretty whatever at the end of the day. The Planar Chaos colorshifted card frame is the modern card frame done right and it's not coming back, so I guess they can only make things uglier from here. I just wish they would fuck with the card frame less often because I don't like having eleventy bajillion different-looking frames in my decks.
1) MM was the only good thing they released this year. High value, awesome drafting experience and the GP with the highest attendance in MtG history.

And then we have Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze, M14 and Theros. Neither could live up the hype after RtR became the best selling set of all time (hey, a set with a decent power level that doesn't suck ass!). Maro even stated some time after its release that Dragon's Maze wasn't well received - "due to too many mechanicals making things complicated". Well, it was disliked - certainly not for that, but for being a low-powered clusterfuck of uninteresting cards. Making Voice of Resurgence the only chase rare of the set because nobody wanted to buy that shit otherwise speaks volumes. Not to mention the Emmara Tandris disaster. M14 was meh and so was Theros. I seriously hope that Ken Nagle can fix this dire situation in the next set, but since Tom LaPille was also working on it, we have to wait and see.

2) They shat over everything that made Slivers Slivers and expected the old crowd to love them. Guess what - we loathe them to death. And the new players simply don't care because the "cool factor" of the original Tempest Sliver doesn't exist anymore. Crappy Predator rip-offs aren't going to change that. Nobody cared that the presentation of Slivers was limited since they were iconic.


Talked to a person from the hong kong factory. They have about 60 cards to choose from...all the blue duals all the fetches all the shocks and pretty much most of the $100+ legacy stuff. Ordered in decks of 55 cards that you choose from the list. 20 decks run $450 smallest order or 1000 decks for $1200 shipped. 55,000 underground seas to wallpaper my house lol.

Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.
So Wizards saw the danger of Hong Kong decent fakes flooding the market and made the holo stamp?

But what are the implications for the Eternal formats? If they pass the common tests, how can you still distinguish fake and original?

"When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck."

[prateta]

So Wizards saw the danger of Hong Kong decent fakes flooding the market and made the holo stamp?

But what are the implications for the Eternal formats? If they pass the common tests, how can you still distinguish fake and original?

"When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck."

I spoke to that company too. They offered me few samples for shipping only ($28). I'm so curious about it, but I think I won't pay 28 bucks for some fake seas. Anybody wanna split? :D I would be interested how close to the original are those.

[Higgs]

What I read from MaRo's article is this:

"Over the years we've made many changes majority of the players didn't like. You whined and complained but guess what, it didn't change anything and we did what we wanted. You learned to live with them like a good puppy. So we will continue to do whatever we want to do whether you like it or not. Suck it up and get over it."

This alibaba print factory thing on the other hand, is quite worrying now that the cat is out of the bag. I wonder how long it would take for the community to get up to speed with the and the market to be literally flooded with fakes. I also wonder if Wizards will take any action on this. Other than MaRo writing another article telling how right they've been with the holo thing in the new frame.

[Humphrey]

So instead of getting loyal customers they now need to add copy protection

[Kayradis]

Debating if I should order 1000 SFM while they are hot and flood the market.....
It's like printing 25$ bills!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What I read from MaRo's article is this:

"Over the years we've made many changes majority of the players didn't like. You whined and complained but guess what, it didn't change anything and we did what we wanted. You learned to live with them like a good puppy. So we will continue to do whatever we want to do whether you like it or not. Suck it up and get over it."

Higgs, I guess that it's not welcome to have three quotes in signature, am I right?

[Sloshthedark]

counterfeits? - finally! clap clap clap ... WotC deserve it... or we do?

obv. abolishing reserved list solves nothing if original prints remained legal = extreme scenario is "currency reform" into holograms or separating price/supply factor - therefore, radical change, cards for everyone - market crush into worthless shit (and they will do so in pompous manner if counterfeits are good enough to "take a share")... obv why reserved list exists is agregate loss of their corporate partners + distro network (lgs) +uncertainity > agregate expected gain ... Do I have to empahasize they dont give a shit about your collection (but have to respect other shop collections)...

or this just brings "exit paper cards" phase in their x year bussiness plan nearer... to which worst obstacle is mtgo itself, LOL, how dilettante could this company become lined by milestones of missed opportunities... I feel exploited and manipulated more than in real life, another example of amateurism...

btw. I'd gladly buy 10000 seas, but what to do with them? throw them at random people at some GP I guess...

[phonics]

I think that while the intentions for the holographic mark are there, I'm not too sure if it will work in practice. The stamp isnt going to make goyfs, jaces or lilianas in circulation cost less unless they reprint them which serves the same purpose either way. The only cards this kind of stamp protects are potential new cards that are on par with these (power level wise, and availability wise) that have yet to be printed. Wizards sees this as a counterfeiting problem, where I think it is more of a pricing problem. Counterfeiting has always been around, and will continue to be around, the only thing that will change this is reducing the incentive to counterfeit (ie making it so that there arent staples that cost over 100$ for a single card).


Debating if I should order 1000 SFM while they are hot and flood the market.....
It's like printing 25$ bills!

Why print 25$ bills when you can print 130$ bills?

[Richard Cheese]

What I read from MaRo's article is this:

"Over the years we've made many changes majority of the players didn't like. You whined and complained but guess what, it didn't change anything and we did what we wanted. You learned to live with them like a good puppy. So we will continue to do whatever we want to do whether you like it or not. Suck it up and get over it."


http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/039/080/5008_9c00_420.gif

[Higgs]

:D A picture is worth a thousand words.

[Deviruchi]

They see the problem and they have to start something somewhere (M15). After that I hope to see many reprints AND info "If you really want to be sure your cards are not fake, make sure to acquire newest version with holo" = buy new stuff.

[prateta]

They see the problem and they have to start something somewhere (M15). After that I hope to see many reprints AND info "If you really want to be sure your cards are not fake, make sure to acquire newest version with holo" = buy new stuff.

Therefore I demand the reprints to be produced with original design. I ain't playing my duals with this ugly-ass new frame. I'd rather quit than to play a game that ugly. The only way out would be complete deck alteration. But... $$$

[Barook]

counterfeits? - finally! clap clap clap ... WotC deserve it... or we do?

obv. abolishing reserved list solves nothing if original prints remained legal = extreme scenario is "currency reform" into holograms or separating price/supply factor - therefore, radical change, cards for everyone - market crush into worthless shit (and they will do so in pompous manner if counterfeits are good enough to "take a share")... obv why reserved list exists is agregate loss of their corporate partners + distro network (lgs) +uncertainity > agregate expected gain ... Do I have to empahasize they dont give a shit about your collection (but have to respect other shop collections)...

or this just brings "exit paper cards" phase in their x year bussiness plan nearer... to which worst obstacle is mtgo itself, LOL, how dilettante could this company become lined by milestones of missed opportunities... I feel exploited and manipulated more than in real life, another example of amateurism...

btw. I'd gladly buy 10000 seas, but what to do with them? throw them at random people at some GP I guess...
Why would they abandon the paper market anytime soon?

While MODO makes them loads of money, it can't replace the real thing. How would they draw in new customers with a product as shitty as MODO? We have to put up with it because we love the paper game, not this steaming PoS.

If high quality fakes started to flood the market, I wonder how long it would take Wizards to take action. I doubt they could track them down all, especially in China. Maybe it's even eventually going to the abolishment of the Reserve List - not because they care about the value of your collection, but people making millions of their property.


They see the problem and they have to start something somewhere (M15). After that I hope to see many reprints AND info "If you really want to be sure your cards are not fake, make sure to acquire newest version with holo" = buy new stuff.
That might be one of their intentions.

The biggest losers in the entire thing might be the collectors/hoarders/speculators who drove up the price in the first place. If those fakes pass the common tests like the UV-Light and aren't off color, how do you distinguish them (at least when you play them in a tournament)? Would the people of your LGS be able to tell the difference, especially when your stuff is sleeved up? Have people been disqualified for high quality fakes yet?

[Scott]

They see the problem and they have to start something somewhere (M15). After that I hope to see many reprints AND info "If you really want to be sure your cards are not fake, make sure to acquire newest version with holo" = buy new stuff.

It seems likely that WotC knew about the Chinese fakes and rushed out the hologram info to retain consumer confidence. If that's the case, maybe it isn't a finished design? I don't mind the new design (although I much prefer the old frame and Future Sight frames) but I know a lot of people hate the text box going past the color frame and some other things.

[Zupponn]

The biggest losers in the entire thing might be the collectors/hoarders/speculators who drove up the price in the first place. If those fakes pass the common tests like the UV-Light and aren't off color, how do you distinguish them (at least when you play them in a tournament)? Would the people of your LGS be able to tell the difference, especially when your stuff is sleeved up? Have people been disqualified for high quality fakes yet?


The bigger question might be: Does it even matter if people use high quality fakes?

[Lord Seth]

I'm just making a stab in the dark about this one, but I wonder if they were disappointed with their attempt to bring some of the eternal/casual/edh players back to Standard. Slivers were an obvious throwback to when a lot of us eternal players started playing magic, so I wonder if they had anticipated more excitement than they got from us.
I don't think they were trying to do that with the Slivers. Heck, they weren't even originally going to be Slivers from what I remember reading, but then the reaction from all the playtesters was "why aren't these Slivers?" so they changed them to Slivers. Though I think this was before they set up the new style artwork, so you can't really blame that issue on that, but if the whole goal was to try to get people back into Standard I'd expect they would have had them be Slivers at the outset.

Personally, I think some of the long-overdue reprints they've been doing (shocklands, Mutavault, Scavenging Ooze, Thoughtseize) have probably done a better job getting older players into Standard than anything else.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

counterfeits? - finally! clap clap clap ... WotC deserve it... or we do?

obv. abolishing reserved list solves nothing if original prints remained legal = extreme scenario is "currency reform" into holograms or separating price/supply factor - therefore, radical change, cards for everyone - market crush into worthless shit (and they will do so in pompous manner if counterfeits are good enough to "take a share")... obv why reserved list exists is agregate loss of their corporate partners + distro network (lgs) +uncertainity > agregate expected gain ... Do I have to empahasize they dont give a shit about your collection (but have to respect other shop collections)...

or this just brings "exit paper cards" phase in their x year bussiness plan nearer... to which worst obstacle is mtgo itself, LOL, how dilettante could this company become lined by milestones of missed opportunities... I feel exploited and manipulated more than in real life, another example of amateurism...
Slosh, u married? Coz... u know... ;-)



btw. I'd gladly buy 10000 seas, but what to do with them? throw them at random people at some GP I guess...
I once boozed myself like a real rocker on some bigger tournament and started throwin' cards from binder all over the place. They kicked me out, of course. It is many years ago. Many, many.
Someone got my Channel still. I mean the card, not a youtube...



I think that while the intentions for the holographic mark are there, I'm not too sure if it will work in practice. The stamp isnt going to make goyfs, jaces or lilianas in circulation cost less unless they reprint them which serves the same purpose either way.
They can't start in past.



Therefore I demand the reprints to be produced with original design. I ain't playing my duals with this ugly-ass new frame. I'd rather quit than to play a game that ugly. The only way out would be complete deck alteration. But... $$$
I'd gladly play them with 8th Ed. frame, I ceased to dislike it after what they have done now. Also, as I'm a great fan of uniformity and I'd love to have my Thresh completely Chinese, completely Modern-framed. (Well, I'd love to have it completely Chinese, completely Ancestral-framed, but guess what: there aren't many Chinese Trops, Volcs and FoWs...)



Why would they abandon the paper market anytime soon?

...

The biggest losers in the entire thing might be the collectors/hoarders/speculators who drove up the price in the first place. If those fakes pass the common tests like the UV-Light and aren't off color, how do you distinguish them (at least when you play them in a tournament)? Would the people of your LGS be able to tell the difference, especially when your stuff is sleeved up? Have people been disqualified for high quality fakes yet?
First question: because of money. It might be expensive, all the prints, and distro, and such. IDK.
Second question: IDK again, I just decided half a year ago that I won't be the one to agonize over it. You know who's the less concerned about any change in Magic? The one who doesn't own any Magic. :wink:



It seems likely that WotC knew about the Chinese fakes and rushed out the hologram info to retain consumer confidence. If that's the case, maybe it isn't a finished design? I don't mind the new design (although I much prefer the old frame and Future Sight frames) but I know a lot of people hate the text box going past the color frame and some other things.
It's too late
Too late
It's too late
Too late
It's too late
Too late
Too late
It's too late
Too late
Too late
Too late for apologies. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUPfwARKi1Y)

My confidence is lost. Out of the several main reasons why I'm (slowly, yeah...) getting away from this, the uncertainty about the future of this game was at least the second most important. I don't trust in this game anymore. Ok, maybe I'm overreacting, but I'd rather be the one who's crying that he sold everything, than be the one who's crying because he kept. At least... I'm used to the first.



The bigger question might be: Does it even matter if people use high quality fakes?
Depends. Does it even matter if you spent quite some money and then realize you got fake, or you'll get banned from torunaments, or even someone sues you after you bona fide sell him your Beta USea? Of course that these thiíngs might not happen, and of course that even massive reprints (lets say one set per year since 1994) wouldn't definitely help, but...

[Zupponn]

Depends. Does it even matter if you spent quite some money and then realize you got fake, or you'll get banned from torunaments, or even someone sues you after you bona fide sell him your Beta USea? Of course that these thiíngs might not happen, and of course that even massive reprints (lets say one set per year since 1994) wouldn't definitely help, but...

Not entirely what I meant. I understand that selling fakes without saying they're fakes is bad and that buying fakes thinking they are real is bad as well, but if someone is playing with fakes and those fakes give the player no way to cheat, should he be barred from playing the game at an event? At that point you possibly want to think about taking miscut and altered cards out of tournaments as well, seeing as those could hide telling signs of the fakes.

[Sloshthedark]

Why would they abandon the paper market anytime soon?

While MODO makes them loads of money, it can't replace the real thing. How would they draw in new customers with a product as shitty as MODO? We have to put up with it because we love the paper game, not this steaming PoS.


well I do not understand how could anyone participate in Modo economics in the first place... in a world where 40$ retail pc game isn't worth buying people burn out their money in low return tournaments that chain you to your PC for x hours and in one form require you to invest x times more into virtual nothing where can you play with you stocks for a fee...

OMG both software and virtual product is soo bad by any industry standard - this reminds me of Music industry - how could be people in charge of things be so out of reality of their own bussiness

ehmm so imagine Modo software works, there is a low barrier of entry (ready cheap cards, or monthly fee for everything, or just reasonable directed market supply to retain acceptable costs), insta sell at market price - no idiotic bots and such... If you offer this at

A, game is discontinued in paper,
B, market full of counterfeits = cards have no value - therefore there is no point in reprinting

you get a lot of money for nothing... I imagine this can happen only after the GP&Pro thing collapses



If really fakes ~ originals into degree where fake = originals because of market flood, hell I always thought Mtg could be interesting artificial economics study...

If wizards miss the opportunity to print&sell the reserved list cards I'll laugh my ass off holding my tears with Force of will, to not turn wasteland of my cards into underground sea...

[Loganinc]

Reprinting the old staples with the new holo thingy won't change anything. It will just make the new ones skyrocket because they are the only ones which give you an insurance that you won't lose money on them. (that is if the stamp can't be faked)
So printing a Goyf in the new frame will make it the most expensive Goyf. Bad situation overall. Well just my 2cents

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Not entirely what I meant. I understand that selling fakes without saying they're fakes is bad and that buying fakes thinking they are real is bad as well, but if someone is playing with fakes and those fakes give the player no way to cheat, should he be barred from playing the game at an event? At that point you possibly want to think about taking miscut and altered cards out of tournaments as well, seeing as those could hide telling signs of the fakes.

Yes, I thought you meant this and you're quite right, trouble is that there's no way how to determine if that player used fakes on purpose. Even if his deck woul look like 60/15 of fakes, there's still no proof that he made it deliberately. Would you ban him? Idk...

________________



well I do not understand how could anyone participate in Modo economics in the first place... in a world where 40$ retail pc game isn't worth buying people burn out their money in low return tournaments that chain you to your PC for x hours and in one form require you to invest x times more into virtual nothing where can you play with you stocks for a fee...
This.



OMG both software and virtual product is soo bad by any industry standard - this reminds me of Music industry - how could be people in charge of things be so out of reality of their own bussiness
Yeah, that's the exact thing that occured on my mind this night - it's just like music industry. They're overrunned by pirates and such and instead of making something "revolutionary", they just insist on dicking around with their" copying killz muzick" stupidities. Like if I care if some elderly rockstar doesn't have enough money for his everyday's dose of cocaine... Look, I work in a record manufacturee and guess what, ppl are buying vinyls like crazy and there's nothing can stop them. I see albums like "Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism" by Immortal, Cloudkicker's "The Discovery", Black Sabbath's "You name the album", etc. Basically their reprinting Lotus after Lotus and I see it works. Retruning back to MtG: why should I pay for a CD version of Technohead, when I can have an LP version of Motörhead... oh wait, "we at WotC no reprint Motörhead because collectors. Here, have your Technohead instead, they come with ugly frame, too."
I-di-ots.



ehmm so imagine Modo software works, there is a low barrier of entry (ready cheap cards, or monthly fee for everything, or just reasonable directed market supply to retain acceptable costs), insta sell at market price - no idiotic bots and such... If you offer this at

A, game is discontinued in paper,
B, market full of counterfeits = cards have no value - therefore there is no point in reprinting

you get a lot of money for nothing... I imagine this can happen only after the GP&Pro thing collapses
Yep.



If really fakes ~ originals into degree where fake = originals because of market flood, hell I always thought Mtg could be interesting artificial economics study...
That's what Karpov once said, MtG is a secondary economic system which you enter by purchasing cards/boosters that can't be changed back for money and now you just operatein this new system, using its own currency. Note that we've discussed very old school times, before the advent of (online) stores, and such, so it isn't 100% tru today...



If wizards miss the opportunity to print&sell the reserved list cards I'll laugh my ass off holding my tears with Force of will, to not turn wasteland of my cards into underground sea...
Ok, now you've done it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Reading through the Reddit thread about the Chinese counterfeits has got me seriously considering selling out of the game. Basically all the comments were like "I hope this crashes the value of eternal cards" and shit like that, as if it's even going to matter because when sanctioned eternal events are overrun with fakes they will quickly cease to exist. Every comment that even implied buying counterfeits was wrong was downvoted to oblivion. I don't think the supply chain is there yet for these selfish idiots to proxy out their cube by supporting this but whatever. I mean if you're going to buy from some counterfeit network, whatever nothing I can do to stop you, but the entirety of Reddit has already gone into full blinders on mode and basically convinced themselves that supporting this is the just and moral thing to do. I mean the levels of people diluting themselves there is insane, you would think counterfeiting a game gives you a nobel prize the way people there were justifying it. I might as well sell out now before it gets to the point where every card is scrutinized like a Mox and it just gets impossible.

[Richard Cheese]

Reading through the Reddit thread about the Chinese counterfeits has got me seriously considering selling out of the game. Basically all the comments were like "I hope this crashes the value of eternal cards" and shit like that, as if it's even going to matter because when sanctioned eternal events are overrun with fakes they will quickly cease to exist. Every comment that even implied buying counterfeits was wrong was downvoted to oblivion. I don't think the supply chain is there yet for these selfish idiots to proxy out their cube by supporting this but whatever. I mean if you're going to buy from some counterfeit network, whatever nothing I can do to stop you, but the entirety of Reddit has already gone into full blinders on mode and basically convinced themselves that supporting this is the just and moral thing to do. I mean the levels of people diluting themselves there is insane, you would think counterfeiting a game gives you a nobel prize the way people there were justifying it. I might as well sell out now before it gets to the point where every card is scrutinized like a Mox and it just gets impossible.

You might see that as a good thing. Could be that there are a ton of people that want to play eternal but just can't afford it. I think a lot of people here have said they wouldn't even mind if reprints hurt the value of their collection, as long as it meant more support for the format.

I haven't read that thread though, so I could be way off. Not that I think supporting counterfeiters is right, but I'm not really against lowering the entry barrier either.

[UnderwaterGuy]

You might see that as a good thing. Could be that there are a ton of people that want to play eternal but just can't afford it. I think a lot of people here have said they wouldn't even mind if reprints hurt the value of their collection, as long as it meant more support for the format.

I haven't read that thread though, so I could be way off. Not that I think supporting counterfeiters is right, but I'm not really against lowering the entry barrier either.

Yeah I feel this way. I don't have a godlike collection but I have duals and forces and other legacy staples worth about $2k and I think this is fantastic news. I'm not going to sell my cards, they've brought me a lot of fun and I want to continue playing with them in the future but I'm glad to see this happening. I think at this point I dislike wotc so much that anything like this that could potentially help players and screw over wotc is ok by me. Maybe they need something to shake them up and I would love to see wotc shape up and start producing better content for the game and reduce prices, but even if that doesn't happen I'd still like to see them fail and lose money.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You might see that as a good thing. Could be that there are a ton of people that want to play eternal but just can't afford it. I think a lot of people here have said they wouldn't even mind if reprints hurt the value of their collection, as long as it meant more support for the format.

I haven't read that thread though, so I could be way off. Not that I think supporting counterfeiters is right, but I'm not really against lowering the entry barrier either.

I'm fine with my collection losing value if it means more players, but who exactly is going to run Legacy events when all the new kids are buying proxies overseas? I was under the impression stores held events to buy/sell cards not out of the kindness of their hearts. That is basically what happened to Vintage except the counterfeiter was a black sharpie, but once people stop buying cards the format will dry up pretty quick (I mean imagine Legacy in the US right now without SCG in the game). So far only a handful of staples have been printed but with people talking the way they are it will be more soon because the demand is definitely there.

[Lord Seth]

Yeah, that's the exact thing that occured on my mind this night - it's just like music industry. They're overrunned by pirates and such and instead of making something "revolutionary", they just insist on dicking around with their" copying killz muzick" stupidities. Like if I care if some elderly rockstar doesn't have enough money for his everyday's dose of cocaine... Look, I work in a record manufacturee and guess what, ppl are buying vinyls like crazy and there's nothing can stop them. I see albums like "Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism" by Immortal, Cloudkicker's "The Discovery", Black Sabbath's "You name the album", etc. Basically their reprinting Lotus after Lotus and I see it works. Retruning back to MtG: why should I pay for a CD version of Technohead, when I can have an LP version of Motörhead... oh wait, "we at WotC no reprint Motörhead because collectors. Here, have your Technohead instead, they come with ugly frame, too."
I-di-ots.
Actually, I believe the music industry did make something "revolutionary" because of piracy: iTunes.

Well, technically, Apple made it. But they obviously got the music industry on board with it.

[Arsenal]

FWIW, the music industry HATES iTunes. Apple holds all the cards, dictates the price points for songs, and essentially tells the music industry to get on board with it's slanted terms or gtfo.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm fine with my collection losing value if it means more players, but who exactly is going to run Legacy events when all the new kids are buying proxies overseas? I was under the impression stores held events to buy/sell cards not out of the kindness of their hearts. That is basically what happened to Vintage except the counterfeiter was a black sharpie, but once people stop buying cards the format will dry up pretty quick (I mean imagine Legacy in the US right now without SCG in the game). So far only a handful of staples have been printed but with people talking the way they are it will be more soon because the demand is definitely there.

Eh, most people buy their stuff online now anyway. Stores still collect entry fees, and if you award prizes in store credit then you're kinda forcing people to go through you to an extent anyway, which is more or less the way it is now. I think it's more of a moral conundrum - high quality fakes could be good for lowering the entry barrier to eternal formats, but you're still breaking the rules. It's even more morally fuzzy if they really do flood the market and are good enough to be nearly indistinguishable from real cards, how do people even know if they're playing with fakes? Do you still deserve to be punished if you aren't aware you're breaking the rules?

[Lord Seth]

FWIW, the music industry HATES iTunes. Apple holds all the cards, dictates the price points for songs, and essentially tells the music industry to get on board with it's slanted terms or gtfo.
I never said they were happy to get on board with it.

Though I am curious as to whether their profits have increased or decreased thanks to iTunes.

[Mewens]

Reading through the Reddit thread ...

Sorry, gotta stop you right there. Already identified the problem.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sorry, gotta stop you right there. Already identified the problem.

Reddit is full of idiots for sure but it's FULL of them. If that hivemind has already justified buying fake cards and giving zero fucks about it then there will be a distributor soon enough to fill that demand. I've pretty much decided to sell out of the game now, because it is going to be a lot harder once the market is flooded with fake cards and after seeing people's reaction to these counterfeits I don't really think I believe in the long term health of the game anymore. I've pretty much pulled a complete 180 in the past week to be honest, I was fully ready to hold on to my collection for a long time but that doesn't seem like the best option anymore.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Actually, I believe the music industry did make something "revolutionary" because of piracy: iTunes.

Well, technically, Apple made it. But they obviously got the music industry on board with it.

But it took them ten years.


Holmes, even though I agree with you that counterfeiting cards is immoral, I still can't justify sitting on ten thousands of dollars while my house needs repair or w/e. Yep, there's that argument "go find a better job and work 24/7 so that you may finance your children's pictorial game hobby", but I won't. So basically, if I decide to cash out, I may either: cash out completely without any methadon, or I'll cash out and will play MWS, or I will cash out and play proxy.
Yep, none of this will help neither WotC nor lgs, but whatever? I'm not obliged to play children's pictorial game and I really don't care what will happen with WotC. It's not my trouble that they're unwilling or unable to reprint the money stuff. If they'd printed loads and loads of it, this all would never happen, as there would be no intention to fake something that has little financial value. Yes, there'd be Moxes and stuff, but these were there since 1990's. What's more scaring is the fact that now we're talking about quite a recent stuff that was printed in quite a reasonable numbers, yet it's still a 100 USD matter, like Jace or Goyf or w/e.

Basically they should have kept the "core set = reprints only" policy, use the white boarders, etc., to make the money stuff more affordable for those who just wanna play the game, and the collectibility factor would be saved for those whom it may concern only, naturally. I guess that no one will stick blue Mauritius on their letter to grandma, but WotC inability (or whatever it is) to reprint at the very least the non-RL money cards, simply forces the players to either leave the competitive scene or use the blue Mauritii on the grandma-letters. What on earth is that? I won't be playing with USD 2500 deck, NO WAY!

This doesn't mean I support fakes. This means I'd love if WotC reprinted the stuff so that it's more affordable for those uniniterested in collectible aspect, without hurting the collectors. Maybe it's not possible, but w/e, I'm more player than collector, and if the players might profit only at the expense of collectors, so be it. You dislike it? What. Ever. That's how the world of particular interests works...



I've pretty much decided to sell out of the game now, because it is going to be a lot harder once the market is flooded with fake cards and after seeing people's reaction to these counterfeits I don't really think I believe in the long term health of the game anymore. I've pretty much pulled a complete 180 in the past week to be honest, I was fully ready to hold on to my collection for a long time but that doesn't seem like the best option anymore.
+1

[Derklord]

Reading through the Reddit thread about the Chinese counterfeits has got me seriously considering selling out of the game. Basically all the comments were like "I hope this crashes the value of eternal cards" and shit like that, as if it's even going to matter because when sanctioned eternal events are overrun with fakes they will quickly cease to exist. Every comment that even implied buying counterfeits was wrong was downvoted to oblivion. I don't think the supply chain is there yet for these selfish idiots to proxy out their cube by supporting this but whatever. I mean if you're going to buy from some counterfeit network, whatever nothing I can do to stop you, but the entirety of Reddit has already gone into full blinders on mode and basically convinced themselves that supporting this is the just and moral thing to do. I mean the levels of people diluting themselves there is insane, you would think counterfeiting a game gives you a nobel prize the way people there were justifying it. I might as well sell out now before it gets to the point where every card is scrutinized like a Mox and it just gets impossible.The way I see it, WotC is like a car company. They refuse to produce spare parts for their old cards to make peoply buy their new cars. In my opinion, they have no right to complain when some third party company starts manufacturing parts for the old cars so that people unwilling or unable to afford a brand new car every year can still drive their old ones.
Let's say your own a 1958 Corvette with a broken fuel injection and Chevrolet doesn't produce spare parts for it anymore - would you rather switch to a new car or buy a fuel injection from a different company?

The thing is, when it comes to legacy cards, the counterfeiting isn't even (directly) hurting WotC because they deliberatly chose to not print the old cards. The Reserved List is not the problem, there are more expensive legacy staples off the RL than on it. The counterfeits are the answer to WotC's asshole reprint policy and that is why so many people react positiv to them.

And about tournaments: Aren't there entrance fees? There are nightclubs, conventions, festivals etc. all over the globe, mostly operating solely on entrance fees. I'm sure SCG can make money at their tournaments without selling a single card. With more legacy players due to lower prices, there could actually be more tournaments, organized by local player groups.



Yeah, that's the exact thing that occured on my mind this night - it's just like music industry. They're overrunned by pirates and such and instead of making something "revolutionary", they just insist on dicking around with their" copying killz muzick" stupidities. Like if I care if some elderly rockstar doesn't have enough money for his everyday's dose of cocaine... Look, I work in a record manufacturee and guess what, ppl are buying vinyls like crazy and there's nothing can stop them. I see albums like "Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism" by Immortal, Cloudkicker's "The Discovery", Black Sabbath's "You name the album", etc. Basically their reprinting Lotus after Lotus and I see it works. Retruning back to MtG: why should I pay for a CD version of Technohead, when I can have an LP version of Motörhead... oh wait, "we at WotC no reprint Motörhead because collectors. Here, have your Technohead instead, they come with ugly frame, too."Haven't you seen MTV Cribs lately? They only have like 20 bedroomes in theit houses nowadays, see? The internet totally killed the music industry!
Seriously though, I think I need to put that in my signature. But who is Cloudkicker?

Edit:
FWIW, the music industry HATES iTunes. Apple holds all the cards, dictates the price points for songs, and essentially tells the music industry to get on board with it's slanted terms or gtfo.And that's why iTunes is a suprisingly good comparison. The record label's chose to whine rather than change, and now Apple is getting half the cake. If there is a demand, sooner or later someone will fill it.If the original company is to stupid do do it themselves, serves them right when eventually someone else does.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Haven't you seen MTV Cribs lately? They only have like 20 bedroomes in theit houses nowadays, see? The internet totally killed the music industry!
Seriously though, I think I need to put that in my signature. But who is Cloudkicker?


I don't have TV, so no, I haven't seen MTV Cribs and I don't even know what's that... :laugh: But I still congratulate them on their 20 bedrooms. :cool:
Cloudkicker? (http://cloudkickermusic.com/) Best djent ever...

[Barook]

And about tournaments: Aren't there entrance fees? There are nightclubs, conventions, festivals etc. all over the globe, mostly operating solely on entrance fees. I'm sure SCG can make money at their tournaments without selling a single card. With more legacy players due to lower prices, there could actually be more tournaments, organized by local player groups.
SCG supports their Legacy Opens with 10000$ price money. With an entry fee of 40$, you need 250 people to break even, and that doesn't even include the price of renting the place for another day after Standard. And they don't reach 250 people at all places, hence them dropping Legacy at certain locations last year. However, since they're the only dealer there and charge premium, they should still make a nice amount of cash, otherwise, they wouldn't bring back the Legacy events in those cities this year.

In the end, those fakes are a byproduct of Wizards' greedy business strategy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NewJr7mIrT0) to make high money cards artificially scarce to sell more stuff. FTW:20 wouldn't have put people into a buying frenzy if Jace wasn't a 100+$ card. Same with Modern Masters - high value cards, too limited print run. Put Wasteland or Force of Will into a special precon said and its guaranteed to sell like candy.

Now said strategy is going to bite them in the ass. Loss in confidence in the secondary market is one problem, not being able to put out shitty products with one high-value money card might be another that directly affects them.

Edit: Just came in today: 75$ Modern Precons (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1404)

[Mewens]

$75 precons, huh. ... Honestly don't know how to approach that, though my kneejerk reaction is to upend a table.

[Aggro_zombies]

$75 precons, huh. ... Honestly don't know how to approach that, though my kneejerk reaction is to upend a table.
If they're any good, they'll be more than $75.

If they're not very good, they'll sit on shelves for months on end like most of the rest of the Event Decks do.

[Lord Seth]

Oh, as if any stores will actually be selling for $75 and not jacking up the price at least 50%.

[Barook]

Oh, as if any stores will actually be selling for $75 and not jacking up the price at least 50%.
I've already said it in the other thread: If there's a money card like Tarmogoyf in there, expect prices at 200+$, similiar to FTV:20.

They would have to print the crap out of it to meet demand.

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh, as if any stores will actually be selling for $75 and not jacking up the price at least 50%.
They've made Event Decks in the past that were worth at least MSRP if not more than that. The problem is that no one ever wants to buy them - even the kiddies trying to get into Standard generally prefer to trade for cards and build a deck of their own than buy one out of the box. You can still pick up RtR event decks around here, for example.

I doubt they'd put Tarmogoyf in one of these considering how they made it mythic in a print run-limited set (Modern Masters) because they were terrified of actually lowering its price. There might - might - be shocks and fetchlands. The shocks are pretty devalued at this point, but fetches would be a boon. The problem is that they're only likely to put one or two copies of one or two of the fetches in there, which won't do much to prices.

I mean, it's always possible that they're printing some awful Tier 2 deck like Scapeshift and the Event Deck will just rot on shelves forever, but they might also take a crack at making a half-decent Pod deck or something.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They've made Event Decks in the past that were worth at least MSRP if not more than that. The problem is that no one ever wants to buy them - even the kiddies trying to get into Standard generally prefer to trade for cards and build a deck of their own than buy one out of the box. You can still pick up RtR event decks around here, for example.

I doubt they'd put Tarmogoyf in one of these considering how they made it mythic in a print run-limited set (Modern Masters) because they were terrified of actually lowering its price. There might - might - be shocks and fetchlands. The shocks are pretty devalued at this point, but fetches would be a boon. The problem is that they're only likely to put one or two copies of one or two of the fetches in there, which won't do much to prices.

I mean, it's always possible that they're printing some awful Tier 2 deck like Scapeshift and the Event Deck will just rot on shelves forever, but they might also take a crack at making a half-decent Pod deck or something.

I doubt they'll print the fetches, I think they love to print the whole cycles and I don't see them putting all five fetches into one deck. If, otoh, there are plans for another such products...

[CaptainTwiddle]

To touch on the original topic of the changes to the card frame/design, I wonder if the holo stamp, in addition to being an anti-counterfeit measure, is also a way to dissuade people from doing full alters. The alters market has gone far beyond what I would have ever imagined. The fact that people are paying extra for cards that may be disallowed in a tournament and have been totally changed from their immediately recognizable image by someone other than the original artist, makes little to no sense to me.

Regarding the Modern Precons, and any other similar product, I always have a hard time with figuring how they determine the MSRP. I mean, the cost of production for the Modern Event decks isn't likely any higher than that of the standard ones, which means that the MSRP is being based on the secondary market value of the contents. That just seems shady, especially when they know that most shops will sell any limited edition product at more than MSRP. Granted, Magic players themselves need to accept some of the blame for the ridiculous prices on some of these products. If people weren't willing to pay so much, they wouldn't be worth so much.

[Barook]

To touch on the original topic of the changes to the card frame/design, I wonder if the holo stamp, in addition to being an anti-counterfeit measure, is also a way to dissuade people from doing full alters. The alters market has gone far beyond what I would have ever imagined. The fact that people are paying extra for cards that may be disallowed in a tournament and have been totally changed from their immediately recognizable image by someone other than the original artist, makes little to no sense to me.

Regarding the Modern Precons, and any other similar product, I always have a hard time with figuring how they determine the MSRP. I mean, the cost of production for the Modern Event decks isn't likely any higher than that of the standard ones, which means that the MSRP is being based on the secondary market value of the contents. That just seems shady, especially when they know that most shops will sell any limited edition product at more than MSRP. Granted, Magic players themselves need to accept some of the blame for the ridiculous prices on some of these products. If people weren't willing to pay so much, they wouldn't be worth so much.
Wizards embraces high secondary market prices to a certain extend, though. Money cards are what sells packs, not Pale Moons. See: Thoughtseize in Theros, Voice of Resurgence in DGM, JMS in FTV: 20 or TNN in Commander 2013.

They only care if a supported format becomes so prohibitively expensive that tournament attendance drop.

Everything else? Capitalism, ho!

[Mewens]

MaRo hoooooo! (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/72898317528/will-the-modern-event-deck-have-a-limited-print-run-or)

If printed to demand, that changes the dynamics of the decks entirely. I doubt Wizards wants to tread too firmly on archetype pillars ('goyf, Lili 2.0, etc.), but I could imagine them gleefully setting prices for Tarn / Rainforest (and other ubiquitous staples) to $32ish through these.

[Lord Seth]

Honestly, the real question is why they bother advertising the MSRP when no one follows it anyway for anything other than stuff like basic booster packs.

[prateta]

MaRo hoooooo! (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/72898317528/will-the-modern-event-deck-have-a-limited-print-run-or)

If printed to demand, that changes the dynamics of the decks entirely. I doubt Wizards wants to tread too firmly on archetype pillars ('goyf, Lili 2.0, etc.), but I could imagine them gleefully setting prices for Tarn / Rainforest (and other ubiquitous staples) to $32ish through these.

I take this as a confirmation this precon is gonna be shitty.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I take this as a confirmation this precon is gonna be shitty.

I guess it won't be, there's little sense to print stuff that no one will buy.
Moon, Tarn, Karn, Voice, Bob, Lili, SOFI, etc. USD 300, kthxbye...

[Mewens]

I take this as a confirmation this precon is gonna be shitty.

Precons be shitty. It's essentially a default quantum state for them, or something. The real question(s) be, "Is Wizards looking to set market prices? If so, for which cards?"

Alternatively, I'd accept "Why am I sticky?" or "'_____,' a Lifetime movie about ______."

[YamiJoey]

Precons be shitty. It's essentially a default quantum state for them, or something. The real question(s) be, "Is Wizards looking to set market prices? If so, for which cards?"

Alternatively, I'd accept "Why am I sticky?" or "'_____,' a Lifetime movie about ______."

'A lifetime of sadness' - 'My sex life'.

I'd like to see some fetches in here, and we may see stuff like filters.

Alternatively can we get a Canopy reprint? That card is getting out of hand for a card that basically only sees play in fun and kind of bad decks.

Alternatively 5-colour loam. One of each Fetchland, a Life from the Loam, and 69 kind of bad commons and uncommons. Deck sells out every week.

[Barook]

MaRo hoooooo! (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/72898317528/will-the-modern-event-deck-have-a-limited-print-run-or)

If printed to demand, that changes the dynamics of the decks entirely. I doubt Wizards wants to tread too firmly on archetype pillars ('goyf, Lili 2.0, etc.), but I could imagine them gleefully setting prices for Tarn / Rainforest (and other ubiquitous staples) to $32ish through these.
They have realized how much money they can squeeze out of players with this. The original Commander and stuff were only testing the waters.

As I read it, we only get one Modern precon this time:

Event decks (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Event_deck)

So we're probably getting 10 rares? Just as an indicator for things to come. And unlike Commander 2013, a box doesn't contain 4/5 unwanted jank.

A standard Event deck costs 20$, this costs 75$ MSRP, probably even higher (depending on the content) in the beginning with LGS jacking up the prices. Wizards is going to make mad cash with his. It would be dumb to not print the crap out of this at such a high MSRP as long as people are willing to buy it.

[Stan]

Magic players who bitch about the prices of sealed product are like junkies who bitch about the prices their dealer charges them for cut ut dope. Nobody forces them to buy so much cardboard. Of course the stores will jack up the prices, no matter what's in the decks. It's kinda hard to feel sorry for the suckers who buy them and then get angry over having spent so much money.
They have realized how much money they can squeeze out of players with this. The original Commander and stuff were only testing the waters.

As I read it, we only get one Modern precon this time:

Event decks (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Event_deck)

So we're probably getting 10 rares? Just as an indicator for things to come. And unlike Commander 2013, a box doesn't contain 4/5 unwanted jank.

A standard Event deck costs 20$, this costs 75$ MSRP, probably even higher (depending on the content) in the beginning with LGS jacking up the prices. Wizards is going to make mad cash with his. It would be dumb to not print the crap out of this at such a high MSRP as long as people are willing to buy it.

[thecrav]

There is now a report (maybe reports by the time you click?) of the holo stamp on M15+ cards starting to flake: [link] (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2pskf9/foiling_on_the_rare_stamp_are_scratching_off/)

[iamajellydonut]

There is now a report (maybe reports by the time you click?) of the holo stamp on M15+ cards starting to flake: [link] (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2pskf9/foiling_on_the_rare_stamp_are_scratching_off/)

Quality.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Quality.

The card must be a chinese fake! That's the only way this makes sense.








:rolleyes:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The real questions is what the heck happened to the corner of the rightmost card. Do you let your hamster gnaw on your Yavimaya Coasts or something?

[Wanderlust]

The real questions is what the heck happened to the corner of the rightmost card. Do you let your hamster gnaw on your Yavimaya Coasts or something?

Looks like the corner of the perfect fit is just curled up a bit.

[Barook]

That's actually bloody brilliant of Wizards: People not liking the new holo stamps? They're removing themselves over time! And if people like them, they have to suck it up anyway!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Looks like the corner of the perfect fit is just curled up a bit.

I know, but I still love that quote. :laugh:
Btw, making th cards with expiration dat was a devilish plan from WotC.

[rufus]

Quality.

I remember people talking about the quality of card stock declining with 5th Edition.

[apple713]

I remember people talking about the quality of card stock declining with 5th Edition.

what they should do is increase the quality of the stock and ink like it was back in beta, and charge like 20cents more.

[Begle1]

Magic players who bitch about the prices of sealed product are like junkies who bitch about the prices their dealer charges them for cut ut dope. Nobody forces them to buy so much cardboard. Of course the stores will jack up the prices, no matter what's in the decks. It's kinda hard to feel sorry for the suckers who buy them and then get angry over having spent so much money.


what they should do is increase the quality of the stock and ink like it was back in beta, and charge like 20cents more.

This really chaffs me too... I've come to accept that Wizards wants their cards to have a mystique that attracts newer players, by having costs that maintain older players. I think that's a fine-enough strategy. But come on guys, if you know you're printing cards that you want to retain high value for decades, there's no forgivable reason to ever pinch pennies when it comes to archival-quality ink and card stock. I'd feel a lot more comfortable posting $100 for a card if I knew it wasn't going to just fade away and disintegrate in 10 years.

[The Doctor]

But those gorgeous M15 frame Apocalypse pain lands had so much prestige :(