Jund Depths

[Mr. Safety]

Different question: Faithless Looting or Mirri's Guile? What's better? Have you guys been testing both?

Even if I played 4x Faithless Looting I would still find a way to cram 1-2x Sylvan Library into my deck. If you like Guile, go with Guile, but the more manipulation you play the more consistent the deck will be.

[Mr. Safety]

You only need 1 loam or Pfire (with grove) to break the discard symmetry of smallpox/Liliana, so I don't think you should rate all cards solely on this type of cardadvantage. Squee can be discarded once though, can be loamed into, can be entombed. Thats pretty sweet for 1 card, and trading with creatures on board is cardadvantage too.
Double red is a big deal though. But I think he's worth a shot.

EDIT: and it plays through gravehate. How hilarious is it to play this through Rest in Peace of Leyline of the void :tongue:

Not nearly as hilarious as sideboarding 4x Helm of Obedience.

[East3]

@Ingo. Loam is a huge card advantage engine. It makes most other cards in the deck better. Sure Entomb is 4 virtual copies of Loam, but Loam is usually one of the last targets I use it for because I don't always want to be dredging. I would prefer to draw Loam naturally and it happens more often with 4 in a non-blue deck without something like Brainstorm. Exploration in this deck doesn't work well with Mox Diamond. SanderM is spot on, once you're up to about 4 or 5 your lands become fodder for something else. Knowing when to keep excess lands in your hand is important.

@SanderM. I have a lot of Storm in my meta so my plan vs. S&S is all discard possible, keep a hand with an edict, and keep them off 5 lands. Heaven // Earth reminds me of Volcanic Spray I used to use for something like Elves, D&T, or Young Pyromancer.

@Mr. Safety. I don't think double red is too terrible with 6 red sources + 4 Mox Diamond. I think new Squee not returning to your hand for free is what ends it.

I prefer Mirri's Guile over Faithless Looting and Sylvan Library. Guile trigger showing 3 lands is a beautiful time to dredge Loam, which becomes Ancestral Recall. Then you get a fresh 3 next turn. And if you don't have a Loam your fetches will give a fresh 3. I haven't tried Sylvan Library but I really enjoy being able to cast Guile for G on turn 1. Not sure how that outweighs being able to draw multiples/draw and dredge later in the game so I'm open if someone has tried it.

Regarding new Squee: Living through Rest in Peace is just ok. He doesn't trade with RiP deck creatures like Mom, Thalia, or Mentor with a Prowess trigger so you'll be paying 1RR all the time. I think he's good under a Blood Moon. Trading with Magus does give him potential.

I've lived the Helm of Obedience and Phyrexian Ingester dreams and it's fantastic. Ingester was the first to come out. It's not dependable against S&S and we're already stacked against Reanimator. Helm came out when everyone stopped playing RiP and switched to Surgical Extraction.

[SanderM]

SanderM is spot on, once you're up to about 4 or 5 your lands become fodder for something else. Knowing when to keep excess lands in your hand is important.

Well thank you ^_^




@SanderM. I have a lot of Storm in my meta so my plan vs. S&S is all discard possible, keep a hand with an edict, and keep them off 5 lands.

That's true. i'll give it a try and see how it works out.




@Mr. Safety. I don't think double red is too terrible with 6 red sources + 4 Mox Diamond. I think new Squee not returning to your hand for free is what ends it.



Nether Spirit doesn't return to your hand either. :tongue: I might consider replacing him with the new Squee. Since he's Deathrite Shaman proof. These days you don't need a blocker each turn anymore. Tarmogoyf is missing in action and most of the other creatures are x/2. So Punishing Fire mostly does the trick.



I prefer Mirri's Guile over Faithless Looting and Sylvan Library. Guile trigger showing 3 lands is a beautiful time to dredge Loam, which becomes Ancestral Recall. Then you get a fresh 3 next turn. And if you don't have a Loam your fetches will give a fresh 3. I haven't tried Sylvan Library but I really enjoy being able to cast Guile for G on turn 1. Not sure how that outweighs being able to draw multiples/draw and dredge later in the game so I'm open if someone has tried it.


Mirri's Guile gives you extra options on turn 2. Wich could be just the turn you need to survive against combo decks. Also, we want to do so much on turn 2 already that another 2-mana cards seems to much in my opinion.

Example's of things you might want to cast on turn 2: Smallpox , Life from the Loam , Liliana of the Veil if you have a Mox Diamond, Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, in my case also Collective Brutality .

Faithless Looting is something you really don't want to draw while being hellbent mid or late game.

[CptHaddock]

Why is loam an obvious 4-off? After reading Haas article again (read it 4 years ago too), I still don’t see the answer.
Because there’s a dedication towards lands? BG pox has that too, 4c loam as well. Neither play 4 loams, or 4 virtual copies through 4 entombs on top of that.

I can understand versions of Jund Depths splashing some explorations along the loampackage, making it a better landslike-deck.
I can understand cutting down on some loams/entombs, enforcing the poxpart.
However, I don’t understand an “obvious” 4loam/4entomb-package, while meaning to play the deck in a poxstyle way. If you don’t intend to really abuse this dedication to a loamstrategy in 8! cards, wouldn’t you better play some other cards instead?

This seems like such a weird question to ask. Loam's played in all of those decks because it's giving them CA/Consistency in colors that don't have it available naturally. 4c Loam doesn't need 4 loams as it's also playing things like GSZ, Library, Knight, Confidant but people have gone up to 3 copies in the past. You obviously want to maximize consistency, so hence the 4 copies. What cards are "better" at doing this in this color?

I think what you are missing isn't that this isn't a lands deck, it's a pox deck although the shares some of the same engines. You're not supposed to be wastelanding + loaming your opponent every turn. You really just want to get the opponent hellbent and then you can chip away at the rest of the resources through either smallpox, liliana, punishing fire or loam. A lot of the time Loam in this deck is just used to make land drops, protect your hand from your/opposing lilianas, and sometimes to clear away the top to give you fresh cards to look at.

[Ingo]

This seems like such a weird question to ask. Loam's played in all of those decks because it's giving them CA/Consistency in colors that don't have it available naturally. 4c Loam doesn't need 4 loams as it's also playing things like GSZ, Library, Knight, Confidant but people have gone up to 3 copies in the past. You obviously want to maximize consistency, so hence the 4 copies. What cards are "better" at doing this in this color?

I think what you are missing isn't that this isn't a lands deck, it's a pox deck although the shares some of the same engines. You're not supposed to be wastelanding + loaming your opponent every turn. You really just want to get the opponent hellbent and then you can chip away at the rest of the resources through either smallpox, liliana, punishing fire or loam. A lot of the time Loam in this deck is just used to make land drops, protect your hand from your/opposing lilianas, and sometimes to clear away the top to give you fresh cards to look at.

I see your point in 4c loam, but what about BG Pox? I’ve never seen it with 4 loams and 4 entombs (because it’s not built to exploit loam). What’s different with Jund Depths?

4entomb/4loam is the same configuration as Lands (in gamble/loam), so I think it’s logical to compare both decks in their capacity to exploit this 8-card configuration. What I find hard to understand, is stressing the utmost importance of loam on the one hand, while on the other hand relativating loam’s uses as secondary, because the deck really wants to do something else (that’s mirrored in you post too, paragraph 1 versus 2). Isn’t that a strange contradiction?

[Alexeezay]

Exactly my thoughts on Loam here. Why not test out 2-3 Loams ''only''? At least I'm gonna try that. Otherwise, it seems odd to me to exclude Exploration with 4 Loams. This gives you 1-2 more slots for different interaction, potentially more Library manipulation, discard, flexible removal or the new Squee.

[East3]

@Alexeezay. Why not test 2-3 Brainstorm in Grixis Delver? Why not test 2-3 Glimpse of Nature in Elves? Playing extra lands with Exploration loses card advantage and conflicts with the rest of the deck. It actually prevents those 1-2 more slots. Having lands in your hand allows you to Raven's Crime, Smallpox, or +1 Liliana while protecting Crop Rotation, Entomb, Abrupt Decay, etc. New Squee conflicts with Nether Spirit's free return.

@Ingo. Don't intend to speak on behalf of CptHaddock but the deck stresses the importance of Loam in the same way 4x Brainstorm or 4x Glimpse of Nature are important to their decks. You won't be winning the game with these cards alone but they help you do what you need to do in order to win.

[Ingo]

@Alexeezay. Why not test 2-3 Brainstorm in Grixis Delver? Why not test 2-3 Glimpse of Nature in Elves? Playing extra lands with Exploration loses card advantage and conflicts with the rest of the deck. It actually prevents those 1-2 more slots. Having lands in your hand allows you to Raven's Crime, Smallpox, or +1 Liliana while protecting Crop Rotation, Entomb, Abrupt Decay, etc. New Squee conflicts with Nether Spirit's free return.

@Ingo. Don't intend to speak on behalf of CptHaddock but the deck stresses the importance of Loam in the same way 4x Brainstorm or 4x Glimpse of Nature are important to their decks. You won't be winning the game with these cards alone but they help you do what you need to do in order to win.

Glimpse only works when a deck is tweaked to abuse it. Elves does that, at the cost of playing 1/1 weenies. Likewise, Lands does that at the cost of playing mostly lands and accelerators. Loam needs to be built around to translate 'virtual' cardadvantage (because drawing three lands is usually not that great) into real advantage. The more you focus on loam, the more deckslots you should reserve to support these loams. Unlike brainstorm, which is a stand alone card.
I evidently see the value of loams and entombs in Jund Depths, I only question their maxed out numbers without (enough) supporting cards. Just like you wouldn't play 4 Glimpse without support of a lot of onedrop creatures.

Edit: glimpse and brainstorm are also always good in 4-somes in their decks. However you only need one loam and the second/third/fourth are useless after having access to the first.

[streetMage]

..I evidently see the value of loams and entombs in Jund Depths, I only question their maxed out numbers without (enough) supporting cards. When I first built BG Pox I ran 2x Loams and 2x Entomb. I figured Entomb would be my virtual copies of Loam 3-4. But the more I played the deck, the more I realized I always wanted to draw Loam rather Entomb for it. Without library manipulation, this deck really needs a solid opening hand.

Of all the cards in the deck, Jund Depths seems to want to see some combination of Smallpox, Mox Diamond, Entomb and Loam in its opening seven.
That's how I view four ofs' when you don't have manipulation such as Brainstorm and Ponder.

Taking Kennen's latest list:
4x Entomb is virtually X+4 copies of Raven's Crime, Punishing Fire, Nether Spirit and Life From the Loam.
With Life from the Loam already in hand, 4x Entomb becomes X+4 copies of every land in the deck aswell.
In that regard, its slightly better than Brainstorm or Ponder here..

Tbh, the more I look at this deck the more I feel like its just "Dark Lands" lol.
Without cards like Hymn, Toxic Deluge, Innocent Blood/Fatal Push, Cursed Scroll and Mishra's Factory it really feels like its trying to 20/20 or Pfire you to death. Pretty much what RG Lands does.... Contrary to what another poster said, I really don't think the aim is to get you/oppnt hellbent like traditional Pox.

[SanderM]

Tbh, the more I look at this deck the more I feel like its just "Dark Lands" lol.
Without cards like Hymn, Toxic Deluge, Innocent Blood/Fatal Push, Cursed Scroll and Mishra's Factory it really feels like its trying to 20/20 or Pfire you to death. Pretty much what RG Lands does.... Contrary to what another poster said, I really don't think the aim is to get you/oppnt hellbent like traditional Pox.

From Kennen’s primer:


Mana denial is not the main plan. The goal of the deck is to get the opponent hellbent without you yourself dying. Only then are we comfortable sacrificing two lands to summon Marit Lage.

Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27680_Leaving-A-Legacy-Jund-Depths.html

[streetMage]

From Kennen’s primer:


Mana denial is not the main plan. The goal of the deck is to get the opponent hellbent without you yourself dying. Only then are we comfortable sacrificing two lands to summon Marit Lage.

Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27680_Leaving-A-Legacy-Jund-Depths.htmlSure, but my statement was in regards to hellbent like traditional Pox.

I'd argue like Pox at all...

From that same article Kennen states:


Dark Depths is simply the best and most-efficient win condition for a Loam deck..

Dark Lands...

[SanderM]

Sure, but my statement was in regards to hellbent like traditional Pox.

I'd argue like Pox at all...





From that same article Kennen states:

Dark Lands...

Whatever man, whatever. Discussing this won't contribute to the development of the deck.

Talking about contributing to the development of the deck. I recently tried Heaven // Earth and had a blast playing it. Discarding it when drawn to hand or Entombing when needed worked like a charm. However it took some time to set-up. Also Deathrite Shaman is shit to handle with it. Think i'll stick to Punishing Fire and Massacre

[streetMage]

Whatever man, whatever. Discussing this won't contribute to the development of the deck.Hey its cool man lol, I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested in the deck. Understanding how people approach the archetype helps me develop.

Especially since I'm not a netdeck type of guy...
To each their own I guess.

[Ingo]

Burning Wish might be an interesting option for this deck. I had a blast playing it in RG Lands and Wishing for Devastating Dreams (smallpox's red twin). It's double red, but at least BW makes it an optional choice, you could get something else too - like loam or Hull Breach. The black manabase enables also Toxic Deluge or Last Rites as wishtargets, pretty powerful cards.

[Claymore]

A Devastating Dreams with Tabernacle in play would surely get rid of a True Name. Not a bad idea.

Likely some other sorceries to utilize as well. Loam, Reverent Silence, Massacre, Innocent Blood, Pulverize, Dreadbore, Deluge...

I think that type of card plays better than trying to force a Dark Lands build.

[Mr. Safety]

This is the most challenging part of a deck like this, at least for me personally. I can't decide which engine is better: Entomb, Burning Wish, Faithless Looting, Gamble, Crop Rotation, Living Wish...there are a plethora of engines available for a grindy jund-colored control deck. Entomb is obviously the fastest and most efficient, but also the most susceptible to Deathrite Shaman/sideboarded grave hate. Burning Wish suffers from being slower and keeps things happening only on your turn, which can be played around. Gamble really needs a more streamlined, linear approach to always hit, which is what R/G lands favor. Crop Rotation is the same, a focused tutor that really only works for specific lands, mostly the DD/Stage combo. Faithless Looting is incredible at filtering cards, gaining velocity, and working with the graveyard in a great way that Loam decks love. It is however underpowered compared to something like Entomb, which faces the same weakness but is faster and gets *exactly* what you need. Living Wish only gets creatures or lands, which can be powerful with Dark Depths/Hexmage/Stage/utility dude, but the basic premise of the deck really doesn't want a slow tutor for lands or an even slower tutor for creatures (which it doesn't really want anyways.)

And that's just deciding on the core beyond 3-4x Loam...sheesh.

[East3]

Dark Lands was what people called the RG Lands deck that splashed black for Abrupt Decay. But yeah let's do deck development instead of arguing about Loam, specifically against Miracles.

Basic lands, Jace, Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage, Monastery Mentor, maindeck Back to Basics, and it only gets worse after sideboard with Surgical Extraction (even my opponent knows the power of Loam). So what's the plan against a deck that blanks a lot of our cards? You can't just let Jace go. If you get into a back and forth of +2 Jace -2 from PFire, +2 Jace -2 from PFire, etc. you're going to get destroyed by Mentor & Prowess tokens. The +20 life from Swords doesn't go nearly as far enough against Mentor. You absolutely have to have a secondary win con because they will Extract your Loams after sideboard.

I've been considering Choke, Flashfires, Boil, Dread of Night, Hero's Downfall, Dreadbore, and Pyroblast. They're all counterable but if you could get one of the permanents to stick it could really help. I usually want spells that cost around 1-2 cmc so Dread of Night has been leading that race. Without the tokens Smallpox reaches Mentor and takes away a win con. I have 2 main Abrupt Decay and 1 in the side that comes in for Counterbalance and Back to Basics but hits Mentor in a pinch. But there's also part of me that wants to side in my 1 Raven's Crime & 3 Hymn to Tourach to destroy their hand and just go for a fast Marit Lage before they can really do anything with Jace or Mentor.

[streetMage]

... specifically against Miracles... But there's also part of me that wants to side in my 1 Raven's Crime & 3 Hymn to Tourach to destroy their hand and just go for a fast Marit Lage before they can really do anything with Jace or Mentor.Attack the hand with Raven's Crime engine and Hymn to Tourach as you've said... From my sideboard, I bring in Chains of Mephistopheles, Garruk Relentless, Pithing Needle, Maelstrom Pulse, Ensnaring Bridge and Duress.

Possible Secondary wincons: Molten Vortex, Bitterblossom, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Garruk Relentless, Cursed Scroll
Primary Stabilizers: Liliana of the Veil, Ensnaring Bridge

Of the cards you listed I think Dread of Night and Pyroblast are good since they can be used against other decks.

[Alexeezay]

played this list for fun and went 4-1 with it:
1 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Exploration

2 Punishing Fire
4 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Smallpox
1 Raven's Crime
3 Life from the Loam

30 Lands
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Maze of Ith
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Polluted Delta
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Barren Moor


// 15 Sideboard
1 Ashen Rider
2 Drop of Honey
1 Coffin Purge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
2 Innocent Blood
2 Hymn to Tourach

2-0 Aluren
2-0 Miracles
0-2 Thalia Eldrazi Stompy
2-1 BUG Shadow
2-0 Tezzerator (Grixis)

I realized a few things:
- Exploration was meh most of the time. HOWEVER, it drew out my opponents Force of Will everytime and I got the 2-for1. It's better in a build with maindeck Ghost Quarter and/or Cabal Pit. We definitely can't use Exploration to its full potential here, more hinging on the pox plan. I would rather shred their hand with Raven's Crime than making infinite land drops.
- Mirri's Guile was pretty fine, dropping it t1 to smooth out your draws for the rest of the game
- 4 Crop Rotation in the 75 is definitely correct
- 3 Loams felt correct, I don't really want a 4th. Especially postboard
- Raven's Crime is pure gas
- you don't need 2 Tabernacles for this deck
- I did like the Sideboard, Hymn to Tourach and Drop of Honey especially. Possible cuts are 2 Innocent Blood, Surgial Extraction, Ashen Rider. Maybe another Raven's Crime,Thoughtseize, Massacre/Toxic Deluge instead. Ob Nixilis is an experiment for grindy matchups, probably too expensive.

...gonna try -2 Exploration +2 Liliana of the Veil next time although I didn't miss Lilly. Might be better off with more card selection or even straight up discard.

[Mr. Safety]

I was thinking it would be good to have some sort of recurring permanent effect, like a PW. Liliana is one effect, or something like Garruk Relentless. I wouldn't be opposed to something like 1x Pernicious Deed also.

Post-board against grave hate what's your plan? Just hold on long enough to get Marit Lage/Ob Nix online?

[Albarkhane]

played this list for fun and went 4-1 with it:
I realized a few things:
- Exploration was meh most of the time. HOWEVER, it drew out my opponents Force of Will everytime and I got the 2-for1. It's better in a build with maindeck Ghost Quarter and/or Cabal Pit. We definitely can't use Exploration to its full potential here, more hinging on the pox plan. I would rather shred their hand with Raven's Crime than making infinite land drops.
- Mirri's Guile was pretty fine, dropping it t1 to smooth out your draws for the rest of the game
- 4 Crop Rotation in the 75 is definitely correct
- 3 Loams felt correct, I don't really want a 4th. Especially postboard
- Raven's Crime is pure gas
- you don't need 2 Tabernacles for this deck
- I did like the Sideboard, Hymn to Tourach and Drop of Honey especially. Possible cuts are 2 Innocent Blood, Surgial Extraction, Ashen Rider. Maybe another Raven's Crime,Thoughtseize, Massacre/Toxic Deluge instead. Ob Nixilis is an experiment for grindy matchups, probably too expensive.

...gonna try -2 Exploration +2 Liliana of the Veil next time although I didn't miss Lilly. Might be better off with more card selection or even straight up discard.

From my own experience :
- i was not convinced by mirri's guile at first but now i can't live without 3 of them. The best turn 1 we can dream of and priceless with loam.
- i agree with you about exploration
- Kennen Haas said that he put only 3 crop rotation MD because it is awfull when it get countered. If your meta is not too much U-control then the 4th one is definitively a possibility.
- I was not convinced by drop of honey when i tried it.
- Elves is the only matchup where you really need the 2nd Tabernacle (but it shines there)
- I run 2 backlash in the side to deal with marit lage. Quite fun and efficient even if i will need to test it more (not many land decks in my meta). Did some one ever tried it ?

[Alexeezay]

Backlash seems like a nice trump vs. Marit Lage, but ONLY vs Marit. it's completely useless otherwise because it can't act as removal...unfortunately.
Also, I don't know if you would want to rely on holding up a 3-drop vs Lands/Turbo Depths. I'm not sold and would probably run Diabolic Edict over it.

[Albarkhane]

I am not sold on it yet and would run it only against a Marit Lage heavy meta of course. I agree that diabolic edict is more versatile but backlash makes you win on the spot. Another interesting point IMHO is : if the match goes to game 3, the opponent will have no choice but try to play around it (mana denial or alternate kill) and it will slow him down. This bluff can be very helpfull and may give us the time we need because we are usually more slow.

[East3]

2-0 Miracles


Can you give some details on your matchup? What was your game plan? What did you side in/out? I've been considering going down to 2-3 Loams against Miracles and diversifying my graveyard cards completely just to avoid getting blown out by Surgical Extraction. I'm not sure how that will effect Raven's Crime and Flame Jab, though. I haven't gotten to try out Dread of Night yet so how do you handle Mentor? I've been thinking of trading my Hymns for Thoughtseizes just to get a look at their hand. It's a tough deck to get hellbent and would like to know if they're actually holding a Swords to Plowshares when I go to create a 20/20.

[Alexeezay]

My gameplan vs Miracles was basically Raven's Crime, alongside Hymn to Tourach and Smallpox. They can't hold Swords to Plowshares, or they lose the rest of their lands/threats.
I'm only playing 3 Loams and considering boarding out 1, but board out Maze of Ith and Crop Rotation first.
Bring in enchantment removal, discard spells and planeswalkers.

[jeffersante]

I'm interested in piloting this deck and have all the components EXCEPT The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Is there a viable work around that doesn't totally nerf this deck? Opinions / suggestions / advice appreciated!

[SanderM]

I'm interested in piloting this deck and have all the components EXCEPT The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Is there a viable work around that doesn't totally nerf this deck? Opinions / suggestions / advice appreciated!

Hi and welcome!

Im afraid you really do need the Tabernacle to get this deck working.

If you don't have acces to a Tabernacle i could highly recommend converting to a black or black/green pox shell. Wich plays in a similar way.

[Claymore]

I feel like this deck gets way better now with both DRS and Probe gone.

Attacking mana bases is stronger, fewer mana dorks to make Small pox more effective, graveyard cards like Spirit, Fires, and Crime can stick around easier, slow down T1 combo or hide our countermeasures...

I like it.

[Alexeezay]

Ok, so I'm trying this deck on Mtgo right now. Unfortunately...disastrous Bugs with Smallpox and Liliana of the Veil ruined my league.
Smallpox either just doesn't get rid of a creature, or it crashes during the discard. The Lily sacrifice ability is also bugged I think. So watch out until they fix it :)
I will post results and thoughts when the Bugs are fixed.

[apple713]

I posted this deck in my dark depths forum but I feel like you would appreciate it more here. Its a version I used to play but abandon because of DRS. Now that DRS is gone it can flourish. The SB is not accurate, I'm not sure what it would be now. The main draw of this deck is its raw power from all of the cheap tutors. Game 1 is so strong because you have answers to so many things. If they side in grave hate you can easily function without it. You'll have to give up some power but thats why the sideboard is there. There are so many tutors that can be used to win faster or get defensive cards until you can win. Flame Jab is better in this deck than most because dark depths has traditionally had problems beating death and taxes. Flame jab kills most of the things in their deck. Takes out pesky flying blockers and easily kills delver. Raven's crime can strip away hands that are holding swords to plowshares. Also, dont forget that many decks are still susceptible to wasteland lock. Even though there is only 1 maze of it it ca be copied with stage.

// 61 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond

// 7 Creature
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 5 Enchantment
3 Sylvan Library
2 Exploration

// 9 Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
1 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// 9 Sorcery
3 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
1 Raven's Crime
1 Flame Jab


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Dark Confidant

// 1 Enchantment
SB: 1 Mirri's Guile

// 4 Instant
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay

// 3 Land
SB: 1 Riftstone Portal
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Karakas

// 3 Planeswalker
SB: 3 Liliana of the Veil

[Yeaux]

I love the look of that list, but haven't played it yet. I'll likely sleeve it up for a weekly local sometime soon.

Have you thought about trying young pyromancer in a deck like this? I've always wanted to do something like that in a deck with flame jab and loam.

[MrFrowny_]

Hey guys, building a list at the moment. What are your thoughts on this?

Creatures - 1
1 Nether Spirit

Spells - 19
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Crop Rotation
3 Entomb
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Punishing Fire
1 Raven's Crime

Planeswalkers - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Artifacts - 4
4 Mox Diamond

Enchantments - 2
2 Sylvan Library

Lands - 30
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian Stage
2 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard - 15
2 Drop of Honey
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Punishing Fire
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[Albarkhane]

@MrFrowny_

i was wondering how to adjust to the new meta after the summer bans. Increasing the number of Liliana is something i am testing right now. I am not sold on it yet but i think it is the good path. However, i am not fond of 'Liliana, the last hope', i find it weak but maybe i miss something about it.

I find Mirri's guile better than Library because it fits better in the curve.

I like the basic swamp and in my list i also added a basic forest. It is less usefull than the swamp but still quite handy against moon and back to basic.

I was wondering if i could cut decay from MD but i am not sold on it.

In the SB, i am not fond of Chains. I love the card, but i find it always akward when i test it (off tempo, or overkill, ...). 6 discards slots looks a lot but i guess it depends on your local meta.

[Albarkhane]

I am coming back from a tournament today. The matchup were quite difficult :
- Miracle
- Red stompy
- Sneak and Show
- Mono Red Sneak Attack
- Omnishow
- Mono Red Sneak Attack


Here is the list i played :

4 Mox Diamond
1 Nether Spirit
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Punishing Fire
3 Entomb
3 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dark Depths
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Life from the Loam

Sideboard
2 Molten Vortex
2 Bitterblossom
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Coffin Purge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Entomb
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thoughtseize


My conclusions after the tournament :
- I will put again 1 basic forest in the MD. It was an error to remove it and i missed it the whole day.
- 2 Molten vortex in SB was a try for an alternate kill against moon decks. They shined and i will keep them.
- 2 Bitterblossoms in SB was a try for an alternate kill against deck playing swords & path and rest in peace. I don't know yet and may try again.

I am really not happy how the deck went against show&tell / omnishow decks. The discard prove not to be enough. Any idea on how i could improve that matchup (omnishow especially) ?

[Mr. Safety]

I am really not happy how the deck went against show&tell / omnishow decks. The discard prove not to be enough. Any idea on how i could improve that matchup (omnishow especially) ?

Thoughtseize
Surgical Extraction


Discard is actually very good against S&T decks, but it needs to be cheap and early. Thoughtseize into Surgical Extraction is very, very good against them. I would strongly suggest finding a way to work in Thoughtseize maindeck, probably cutting 1x Loam, 1x Grove, and 1x Mirri's Guile to squeeze them in. Then you can actually put an extra 2-3x discard in the sideboard, such as Duress.

[Albarkhane]

I like the surgical extraction idea. I gave it a quick try a few weeks ago but maybe i should give it a more serious try.

The decks i met at the last tournament were not exactly representative of my meta (i was just not very lucky with the pairings) so using about 6 sideboard slots against show&tell and similar decks sounds quite a lot. I am not sure if squeezing some discard MD is possible but i will test all you suggested.

[Albarkhane]

On another topic, a new card was spoiled for Ravnica new block:

Assassin's trophy
Instant BG
Destroy target permanent an opponent controls. Its controller may search their library for a basic land card,
put it on the battlefield, then shuffle their library.

I guess it can be a nice alternative to abrupt decay in Jund Depths as it can target much more various permanents (planeswalker, ...) . The basic land drawback is a small one in legacy. It can countered which is less nice and i guess the real drawback of that card (i mean, compared to decay).

[Jaeastep]

I am genuinely interested in playing this list. I have been playing magic a long time and legacy for about 6-7 years now and tried several different archetypes including burn, UR delver, Canadian Threshold, Grixis Delver, Esper mentor, and recently Tezzerator (which I’ve loved playing for the past year). I’m getting pretty tired of blue decks in general and I typically don’t like playing creatures which rules out a lot of the non blue archetypes. I’m curious how this deck lines up in the metagame currently and what are generally considered good or bad matchups? I imagine moon stompy sucks to play against and that show and tell can be troublesome. I’ve playtested with lands and pox in the past and liked both decks but not enough to really pursue building them. This seems to be a prison tool box deck similar to how tezz plays where you can tutor for the various pieces you need in the game. I really enjoy that kind of strategy. I only recently discovered this deck going back through old starcity coverage and it really caught my eye as deck I would enjoy playing.

[Manroe]

I am genuinely interested in playing this list. I have been playing magic a long time and legacy for about 6-7 years now and tried several different archetypes including burn, UR delver, Canadian Threshold, Grixis Delver, Esper mentor, and recently Tezzerator (which I’ve loved playing for the past year). I’m getting pretty tired of blue decks in general and I typically don’t like playing creatures which rules out a lot of the non blue archetypes. I’m curious how this deck lines up in the metagame currently and what are generally considered good or bad matchups? I imagine moon stompy sucks to play against and that show and tell can be troublesome. I’ve playtested with lands and pox in the past and liked both decks but not enough to really pursue building them. This seems to be a prison tool box deck similar to how tezz plays where you can tutor for the various pieces you need in the game. I really enjoy that kind of strategy. I only recently discovered this deck going back through old starcity coverage and it really caught my eye as deck I would enjoy playing.I don't have access to the cards any longer but I'd imagine it would be rougher than before. This deck punished Deathrite and Delver decks especially but I indeed always had a show and tell, D&T and Maverick problem. Compound that with Back to Basics and Blood Moon.. Ouch.

That being said I miss the hell out of this.

[morgan_coke]

Those land heavy lists should really, really be running a singleton Glacial Chasm. It solves a lot of problems.

[ESG]

I don't have access to the cards any longer but I'd imagine it would be rougher than before. This deck punished Deathrite and Delver decks especially but I indeed always had a show and tell, D&T and Maverick problem. Compound that with Back to Basics and Blood Moon.. Ouch.

That being said I miss the hell out of this.

I think the Jund Depths lists could use some tuning in light of how the metagame has shifted. My suggestion would be to max out on Abrupt Decay and run a few copies of Assassin's Trophy, along with a mix of Lilianas, with more copies of Liliana, the Last Hope than Liliana of the Veil. Liliana of the Veil is better if you expect to run into a bunch of True-Names, but Last Hope is superior against most other decks, and it's also a credible win condition. This is a real grindy deck, and that can be a disadvantage if one win condition is exiled or shut off in Game 3 and you're up against the clock. Surgicals are everywhere, so playing a slow, graveyard-based deck is ambitious. I would run Choke in the sideboard because Legacy is extremely blue-dominated right now, and that can prompt a concession if you resolve it against a tapped-out opponent.

[Albarkhane]

I am genuinely interested in playing this list. I have been playing magic a long time and legacy for about 6-7 years now and tried several different archetypes including burn, UR delver, Canadian Threshold, Grixis Delver, Esper mentor, and recently Tezzerator (which I’ve loved playing for the past year). I’m getting pretty tired of blue decks in general and I typically don’t like playing creatures which rules out a lot of the non blue archetypes. I’m curious how this deck lines up in the metagame currently and what are generally considered good or bad matchups? I imagine moon stompy sucks to play against and that show and tell can be troublesome. I’ve playtested with lands and pox in the past and liked both decks but not enough to really pursue building them. This seems to be a prison tool box deck similar to how tezz plays where you can tutor for the various pieces you need in the game. I really enjoy that kind of strategy. I only recently discovered this deck going back through old starcity coverage and it really caught my eye as deck I would enjoy playing.

Show and tell is a difficult matchup but the real problem is omniscience actually. I tried 1 REB and 1 pyroblast in sideboard but could not test it enough to be 100% sure.

Moon decks used to be a problem for me but i solved it with basic swamp + basic forest + riftstone portal in main deck, i am also using 2 molten vortex in sideboard. With those technologies and the classical tools that are ran too, now i am sort of looking forward getting paired with moon decks.

Back to basics can be troublesome but one can easily turn around it.


Here is a very quick report of my last tornament with it :
- R1 : UW control (miracle) : 2-0
My opponent was a solid player but he was a bit unlucky in his draw. My only problem was the clock in the second game after marit lage got sworded 3 times. I feel the matchup is difficult but we are stronger.

- R2 : Merfolk : 2-1
He stole one game with vial into fantasmal image that copy my attacking Marit Lage. Beside that, i was never in danger.

- R3 : Tribal wizard : 1-2
I lost because of stupid mistakes. I was tired and not really in the game and paid for it.

- R4 : instant reanimate : 0-2
My opponent had played jund depths for several years and i had never played ot tested against that deck. Logically i lost. I feel this matchup is difficult because our answers are not at instant speed.

- R5 : goblin : 2-1
Some times he is too quick for us most of the time it is an easy win.

- R6 : MUD : 1-2
I found no waste in the 3 games. I am not yet sure how the matchup is balanced but we need to find a quick kill.

- R7 : grixis control : 1-1-1
The clock won ! With more time i guess i would have won. Not exactly sure about the matchup but i would say we are stronger.

Conclusion : not the best deck in the current meta but very fun to play with . One need to be very tight when playing it, any single error will cost the game.

[Jaeastep]

This is my current list:
BRG lands:

Maindeck (60)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 liliana of the last hope
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Smallpox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Bitterblossom
2 Sylvan Library
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the veil
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen
2 Golgari Charm
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void

Went 2-2 at FNM 2 weeks ago.
Round 1
Lost 0-2 to storm. Turn 2 kill game 1 and game 2 I just never drew depths or LoV and he had abrupt decay.
Round 2
2-0 against some blue stew deck. Honestly don’t know what if it was grixis delver or control I had turn 1 chalice both games and just had a combo kill 2-3 turns later.
Round 3
Turbo depths 2-1. Lost quick game 1. Games 2 I had a fast combo and game 3 was a slog and I eventually got the combo off to win.
Round 4
Lost 1-2 to eldrazi not drawing any removal or a single small pox either game I lost. It was a brutal loss and my opponent was thoroughly surprised he won.
The deck felt pretty good and I need way more testing.