Chinese fakes

[Barook]

Glad to hear that they are stopping, but I have my doubts that this is the last we'll be hearing.
The way things went is a bit too suspicious for me.

1. Wizards release the holostamp and a new font. People realize rather quickly that it's a new security measure against fakes.
2. Screenshots of "high quality fakes" suddenly become popular afterwards along with a shop.
3. Two days later, the place "was raided by the police", despite Hasbro being able to do jackshit to manufactures in China, as fake Transformers have shown.
4. Stupid masses calmed down since the "evil fake card producer" scape goat is gone and their collection is save now!
5. Hooray, time for some shitty Born of the Gods spoiler cards on Monday right on schedule!

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but how the entire thing went considering the problematic seems way too convenient. Those guys only started to operate recently - but that doesn't explain stuff like the fake Liliana that was even good enough to fool SCG to sell it.

If anything, this whole incident just proved that both the technology and demand is there and that the Chinese fakers just need to get smarter how to distribute their fakes and fix their mistakes.

[TsumiBand]

The way things went is a bit too suspicious for me.

1. Wizards release the holostamp and a new font. People realize rather quickly that it's a new security measure against fakes.
2. Screenshots of "high quality fakes" suddenly become popular afterwards along with a shop.
3. Two days later, the place "was raided by the police", despite Hasbro being able to do jackshit to manufactures in China, as fake Transformers have shown.
4. Stupid masses calmed down since the "evil fake card producer" scape goat is gone and their collection is save now!
5. Hooray, time for some shitty Born of the Gods spoiler cards on Monday right on schedule!

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but how the entire thing went considering the problematic seems way too convenient. Those guys only started to operate recently - but that doesn't explain stuff like the fake Liliana that was even good enough to fool SCG to sell it.

If anything, this whole incident just proved that both the technology and demand is there and that the Chinese fakers just need to get smarter how to distribute their fakes and fix their mistakes.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44738973.jpg

[Bed Decks Palyer]

He also says that fakes have been prevalent throughout most of magic history, which is true.


Yes, of course. But the difference now and back in 1999 is 100 USD per dual. It's no that funny. Also, I remember the old fakes, they were easily distinguishable from half a mile. These look quite better. Not to mention that the old fakes were limited to duals, P9 and similar money cards, so you didn't need to be that careful about Type II staples. With the prices we have today, even the Standard stuff is faked, as we're not talking about USD 50 per UG Madness, but more like USD 50 per one card and the fakes are spread all over the editions and formats, so good luck purchasing anything over the web.
Moreover, the number of real ABU cards is still the same over the years (better said: it's still smaller and smaller), while the number of fakes rises. Not good. Not good, if you ask me.



If anything, this whole incident just proved that both the technology and demand is there and that the ___________ fakers just need to get smarter how to distribute their fakes and fix their mistakes.
Why just Chinamen...?

[Erdvermampfa]

Why just Chinamen...?


Because counterfeiting only happens in China.

[Koby]

Because counterfeiting only happens in China.

Erm.. not really (http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/14/fake-ferrari-aston-martin-busted-spain-video/).

[jbone2016]

Not in the area that I live in. $1,000 mortgage either means you found a steal or live in a shack. $1,000 is the base for a semi-reasonable family home in my area.

$750, just north of Minneapolis. I was paying more renting a shittier house in NE Minneapolis.

[Mewens]

Guize, it's cool, don't worry. Wizards realized it didn't need to print Legacy staples b/c it could just start printing money (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Fnews%2F281).

[danyul]

Guize, it's cool, don't worry. Wizards realized it didn't need to print Legacy staples b/c it could just start printing money (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Fnews%2F281).

That is the most upsetting and disturbing thing in this whole thread.

[Mewens]

inorite? Square coins, wtf?

[luckme10]

I got the email this morning as well.

This was in my inbox:

Dear Customer,

I am Sorry, our company was stopped by the police, so we can't do MTG cards business no!

pls don't response here to make the e-mail box full.

Thanks

Delson

When did you get this message? Did you try speaking in Chinese and placing a large order? The guy on salvation said that they were trying to push people away because they were overwhelmed with backorders.

[sdematt]

If you stop eating out and drinking alcohol all together you could provably buy a beta dual every month



I skipped out on the binge drinking in college and instead, assembled a set of Beta duals (almost). Seems good, right?

-Matt

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you stop eating all together you could provably buy a beta dual every week.

[r3dd09]

Yes, of course. But the difference now and back in 1999 is 100 USD per dual. It's no that funny. Also, I remember the old fakes, they were easily distinguishable from half a mile. These look quite better. Not to mention that the old fakes were limited to duals, P9 and similar money cards, so you didn't need to be that careful about Type II staples. With the prices we have today, even the Standard stuff is faked, as we're not talking about USD 50 per UG Madness, but more like USD 50 per one card and the fakes are spread all over the editions and formats, so good luck purchasing anything over the web.
Moreover, the number of real ABU cards is still the same over the years (better said: it's still smaller and smaller), while the number of fakes rises. Not good. Not good, if you ask me.



Why just Chinamen...?

I had a friend that's from Japan that's here for foreign exchange stuff. He had some pretty accurate high end stuff. He never knew it was fake. Some stores told him they were real. After I got my hands on one and compared, you could tell the different.

Funny moment, when we weren't buddy buddy and I was checking his fake stuff out and comparing a tundra to a fake tundra. He was looking at them closely, shuffled them around. Then took mine and gave me his.

At first I was in shock as I saw what he did, and made the proper switch. Luckily after I got to know him, I knew it wasn't intentional, he's just clumsy.

[sdematt]

Let me agree, however, by saying Legacy should be a format accessible by 13 year old me - one where you can buy a blue dual land or a Force of Will for $20, and the most expensive card would be $100. It's not an unreasonable amount, considering that's when I got into Legacy. Collecting pop bottles, a few dollars a week allowance, and birthday money started my Legacy collection.

-Matt

[clavio]

You would be surprised how much eating out adds up.

If you stop eating out and drinking alcohol all together you could provably buy a beta dual every month


You know they're like $700 right?

[r3dd09]

You know they're like $700 right?

He knows, he's buying them as well.

[Mewens]

You know they're like $700 right?

In that case, he meant you could probably buy like two a month. Just stop eating out and drinking, for reals.

(Just remember that this is the same guy who chastised anyone paying $1k a month on a mortgage that they're paying too much.)

[clavio]

In that case, he meant you could probably buy like two a month. Just stop eating out and drinking, for reals.

(Just remember that this is the same guy who chastised anyone paying $1k a month on a mortgage that they're paying too much.)

My shitty apartment is $900 (but utils are included). A very frightening Vietnam vet lives upstairs so you know it's legit.

[Lord Seth]

I agree completely. However, it's often times much more palatable financially (and probably psychologically) to spend $300 on a competitive Standard deck every 6 months than to drop $1,500 one-time only on a competitive Legacy deck.
Who actually spends $300 on a competitive Standard deck every 6 months? Sure, you generally have to update your deck with cards from the new expansions, but I don't think it's not going to cost you that much every 6 months.

I mean, there is an upkeep for Standard, but I find when trying to make the "Legacy vs. Standard" comparison, people overstate it.

Now, if you're an ultra-competitive player you might have to be completely changing your deck with each set rotation or even with each metagame shift, but a like Legacy player isn't comparable to someone who just buys one deck anyway because they'd be switching decks as the metagame demands it as well.


I think that's the issue a lot of Standard players face. They realize that in the long run, Legacy is cheaper, but in the short term with only $30 in their wallet and two Thassa's away from completing their deck, Standard allows them to play competitive Magic for "less" (relatively speaking).
Well in a way it's kind of like asking why anyone rents an apartment. "Don't they know that in the long run it'll be cheaper to buy a condo, which they'll actually own?"

[Dice_Box]

The name calling, bullshit about living situations and all round crap that's been thrown around is disturbing. Yes people both agreed and disagreed with me early in the thread, but we where civil. This is..

I am going to quote Dick on this.

Jesus Christ you're all fucking insane.
Myself included.

[prateta]

Situation update

Many of you have written here that some salesman from the chinese company wrote you the police closed their factory. Bad news, it's not true. They just have so many orders that one employee told this lie. I asked the man who is sending me the free sample of cards about this, he confirmed. See the screenshots.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2e3baer.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/mioz9f.jpg

Please excuse my grammar in this post and in the chat as I'm pissed drunk.

[Higgs]

"yes, so we can't make it enough"

Oh man :laugh:

[Voncaster]

Does anyone expect Legacy and current Modern to survive longterm (say over the next 5 years) after this news developed?

I'm fully expecting a singles market crash in 2014. I think all it will take is a few counterfeits to show up at tournaments or be sold from "reputable" online dealers to do irreprable harm to consumer confidence.

[Barook]

or be sold from "reputable" online dealers to do irreprable harm to consumer confidence.
You mean like the fake Liliana from SCG which was only spotted afterwards because the copyright line was bolded?

I'm rather expecting some greedy people trying to sell those en masse as the real thing to make profit.

[Dice_Box]

You mean like the fake Liliana from SCG which was only spotted afterwards because the copyright line was bolded?

Link?

[apple713]

You know they're like $700 right?

yeah between 300-1200

im not saying you'll get an underground sea every month but think about it....

If you have a full time job shit happens during the week. Below is just an example of something that happens probably very regularly to a majority of people.

you eat out for lunch 2 days a week cause your running late to work and you don't pack one. $15

you eat out to dinner 3 times a week cause you work late and don't want to make something. $30

you go to the bar at least once a week $50 (twice a week for $25.... tip, few beers, drinks for a girl)

Thats 1 week and you are at $95 .... for a month x 4 = $380 and that is very conservative. Its at the bottom of the beta dual range but still will enable someone to play legacy with almost whatever deck they want in a month or two.

lets say you eat out much more often.....

lunch $7 x 5 days = $25
dinner $10 x 5 days = $50 ($10 for a dinner is pretty cheap unless your eating mcdonalds value menu every meal)
Bar $25 x 3 days = $75 ($25 for a bar trip is pretty good... if you get shots add another $20)
$150 / week x 4 = $600 <-----defiantly in beta dual range, almost blue dual range

[apple713]

Not in the area that I live in. $1,000 mortgage either means you found a steal or live in a shack. $1,000 is the base for a semi-reasonable family home in my area.

I live in texas and for $1000 you can live in a nice place for that much. its hard to believe that in Wisconson housing is more expensive


So people should give up their houses and move into cramped apartments in order to have spare money for magic?

And what if Duals one day rise to $2,000 each? What then? Will you finally admit the format is too expensive?

When is it finally okay to say "man I just can't afford to play Legacy?" Because apparently as long as SOME people are able to afford it, you all feel that EVERYONE should be able to.

its not for everyone, but for people who do have incomes and choose to spend their money on booze and eat out, both of which are luxuries, maybe they just need to readjust what their priorities are...


If only I could find a place for that, I'm paying $900 for a studio.

yeah the housing situation in the NE isn't great so i could believe that. MTG rates are still low though 3.5-4.5% i think and its a great time to buy.

[Barook]

Link?
Where's a post somewhere burried in the Salvation thread about this topic. Maybe someone can bother to dig it out.

Edit: It was about these ones from the MTG Salvation thread:

http://puu.sh/6eh1p.jpg

Not sure if the Salvation thread also contains the story behind it, but in the 4chan thread, it was said that a guy compared his Lilianas bought from SCG and one of those was a fake one.

[Voncaster]

You mean like the fake Liliana from SCG which was only spotted afterwards because the copyright line was bolded?

I'm rather expecting some greedy people trying to sell those en masse as the real thing to make profit.

I'm only tangentially aware of that story. My point is it will not take much in the internet connected age for a counterfeit story to make the rounds. And when it does I expect consumer confidence to go with it. Why buy if you can't trust?

Is that extreme or others think the writing is on the wall for legacy and modern cards in tournaments? I think the new anti-piracy cards will be better. But after the expected market chill, I'm not sure people burned by piracy are going to be willing to jump back in nor am I sure that LGS will support the game as heavily.

[(nameless one)]

This thread has now turned into:

The Source: your source for living conditions

[Lt. Quattro]

Does anyone expect Legacy and current Modern to survive longterm (say over the next 5 years) after this news developed?

I'm fully expecting a singles market crash in 2014. I think all it will take is a few counterfeits to show up at tournaments or be sold from "reputable" online dealers to do irreprable harm to consumer confidence.

Looking at the price difference of underground sea fom Jan. 09 to Jan. 14 i'm going to say no.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Looking at the price difference of underground sea fom Jan. 09 to Jan. 14 i'm going to say no.

I believe the saying is rome wasn't built in a day

That being said, I highly doubt this will affect scg/retailers, if they make a living off it, they will find a way to verify the authenticity of cards to protect their integrity as a respectable seller, if they don't already have such things in place.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

yeah between 300-1200

im not saying you'll get an underground sea every month but think about it....

If you have a full time job shit happens during the week. Below is just an example of something that happens probably very regularly to a majority of people.

you eat out for lunch 2 days a week cause your running late to work and you don't pack one. $15

you eat out to dinner 3 times a week cause you work late and don't want to make something. $30

you go to the bar at least once a week $50 (twice a week for $25.... tip, few beers, drinks for a girl)

Thats 1 week and you are at $95 .... for a month x 4 = $380 and that is very conservative. Its at the bottom of the beta dual range but still will enable someone to play legacy with almost whatever deck they want in a month or two.

lets say you eat out much more often.....

lunch $7 x 5 days = $25
dinner $10 x 5 days = $50 ($10 for a dinner is pretty cheap unless your eating mcdonalds value menu every meal)
Bar $25 x 3 days = $75 ($25 for a bar trip is pretty good... if you get shots add another $20)
$150 / week x 4 = $600 <-----defiantly in beta dual range, almost blue dual range
Everybody who lives like that would have word with my wife.
"Hello honey, I camelate to work, and now I'm eating in some restaurant, brb. Oh, but maybe I'll go to the bar. What? The one I was to the day before yesterday. What you mean which bar? The one where I order drinks to girls, you know? Ok, perfect, I'll call you once I get my ass out of the pub. Fine! I love you too! Later!"

[Stephan/]

Where's a post somewhere burried in the Salvation thread about this topic. Maybe someone can bother to dig it out.

Edit: It was about these ones from the MTG Salvation thread:

http://puu.sh/6eh1p.jpg

Not sure if the Salvation thread also contains the story behind it, but in the 4chan thread, it was said that a guy compared his Lilianas bought from SCG and one of those was a fake one.

^^ doesn't look like fake, just normal variance in printing occurring very often. The guy posting these photos from several "fake cards" is already suspended on MTG Salvation.

[Dice_Box]

What thread is that? Sorry I know only two sub fourms on the site, over moderated legacy and modern.

Also, just to add. Banned/Suspended on Salvation means nothing. I know what happened with Gutter over there, it ain't mean shit if the mods turn on you.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Does anyone expect Legacy and current Modern to survive longterm (say over the next 5 years) after this news developed?

I'm fully expecting a singles market crash in 2014. I think all it will take is a few counterfeits to show up at tournaments or be sold from "reputable" online dealers to do irreprable harm to consumer confidence.

No.

I don't think the singles market will crash this year so much as deflate over the next 2-3 year. Once people start buying fake money cards and realizing they've spent $100 for literally nothing it's going to be impossible to keep people in the game.

[DLifshitz]

^^ doesn't look like fake, just normal variance in printing occurring very often. The guy posting these photos from several "fake cards" is already suspended on MTG Salvation.

This. It's entirely possible these come from different print runs or different printers, or it could be random variations. And a guy who's paranoid or has an axe to grind with SCG. I suspect that actual counterfeits have more imperfections than that.

[Barook]

This. It's entirely possible these come from different print runs or different printers, or it could be random variations. And a guy who's paranoid or has an axe to grind with SCG. I suspect that actual counterfeits have more imperfections than that.

^^ doesn't look like fake, just normal variance in printing occurring very often.
I fail to see how the difference between normal and bold font is a variance in print.

@Dice_Box: This thread (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=579401) - feel free to sift throught it.


No.

I don't think the singles market will crash this year so much as deflate over the next 2-3 year. Once people start buying fake money cards and realizing they've spent $100 for literally nothing it's going to be impossible to keep people in the game.
People who get staples and don't plan on selling them also spent those 100$ on "nothing". People who want to liquidate their collection anyway at some point are fucked, but the rest wouldn't care as long as playing the game is viable.

We'll have to wait and see how hard it hits the LSGs and SCG and how much it would ruin the tournament scene. There might be a shift in business strategies, but I can't see a mass extinction of LSGs going on. If a vital part of your revenue is selling old Legacy staples in times where the internet is your competitor, you've probably chosen the wrong business strategy anyway.

All we can say fore sure is that

a) hoarding and speculating on money cards has become a terrible idea now and
b) shady business practices like buying out staples to resell them at a higher price come to end.

Prices of staples are certainly going to drop, but to what extend, we have to wait and see. It's also interesting how Wizards reacts to the entire issue down the road, considering "We have already found our solution to the fakes, too bad we don't care about you - get lost!" is a PR nightmare that might even get shareholders interested since Wizards is a healthy part of Hasbro's income.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Prices of staples are certainly going to drop, but to what extend, we have to wait and see. It's also interesting how Wizards reacts to the entire issue down the road, considering "We have already found our solution to the fakes, too bad we don't care about you - get lost!" is a PR nightmare that might even get shareholders interested since Wizards is a healthy part of Hasbro's income.

Could you clarify what you mean by shareholders getting "interested" from the PR nightmare? Do you mean to say that they'll pressure hasbro to make Wizards care about the market for old cards or something like that?

[Dice_Box]

^^ doesn't look like fake, just normal variance in printing occurring very often. The guy posting these photos from several "fake cards" is already suspended on MTG Salvation.

Ok, done some reading, the guy in question appears to have been hit for being a total ass and being hyper aggression against the mods, not for the photos.

[Barook]

Could you clarify what you mean by shareholders getting "interested" from the PR nightmare? Do you mean to say that they'll pressure hasbro to make Wizards care about the market for old cards or something like that?
I don't think shareholders would pressure Wizards to do anything, but Wizards might do something to keep them satisfied, just like the RL is around to prevent PR backlash (be it from lawsuits or whatever).

Every Modern staple is affected, too, and Modern has become MtG's second biggest constructed format last year. Ignoring that playerbase seems like a bad move.

Plus, they can't move shitty premium products with single chase cards if prices go down the drain - and that does affect Wizards' income to an extend.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, imagine the price of Mind Sieze if TNN had been 2 bucks online... That's going to be a reality soon.

[nedleeds]

If you make an investment, let's say you buy a Legacy deck for 2000 $ because of Wotc promise not to reprint Reserved List card and they break their promise AND you lose money (which is not sure, just look at MM Tarmogoyf, but it's still a possibility) because your deck is now worth 1000 $ you can sue them for 1000 $. In general, if you make an investment because of a promise and the promise is broken, you can sue them and get the money you lost.

I'm not going to do that but Hasbro was afraid that people could do that, not because of the money but because of the bad press.

Shareholders don't like companies that are being sued. Companies with shareholders are only interested in making profit and money. Do you really think that they give a **** about a promise, when they can make money, because of breaking it? Some big guy at Hasbro considered that the risk of a lawsuit is not worth the money they could make of Reserved List cards.

The depth of ignorance on this topic is deep as the fucking ocean.

a) In America you can generally get a lawyer to write a civil suit against anyone for just about anything. I can sue you for being a retard on a message board. It'll likely be a waste of my time and money and the only one to benefit will be my lawyer.

b) Stop saying promise. "Policy". Read that word carefully. A policy is not a promise. A policy is current. It has been changed before and can change again.

c) Nobody is winning a lawsuit against WotC because of perceived lost value on their speculative collectibles because they change their companies current policy on reprints.

d) There are many cases were value of cards has been undercut because of other reasons (obsolescence, bannings, etc.). Nobody (to my knowledge) sued. There are also examples of cards for which reprints had no impact or the card continued to skyrocket (see: Beta Wrath of God, Blood Moon).

e) You can make an argument that the ill will that would be directed at WotC from a segment of their customers, the long time collectors would be a deterrent to abolishing the reserved list. I'd argue however that that segment is shrinking every year with respect to those who own primarily post Masques cards.

f) Commander. It's an eternal format WotC has clearly indicated they are interested in profiting from.

The shareholder response to this in the face of hasbro as a whole would like a thimble of tears in the ocean. It would have a negligible effect on the shareholder value. Possibly negated by some nice hefty sales of Commander: Fuck the Reserved List, or From the Vaults: 10 Duals (which ironically would just increase the value of dual lands).

[Star|Scream]

The depth of ignorance on this topic is deep as the fucking ocean.

a) In America you can generally get a lawyer to write a civil suit against anyone for just about anything. I can sue you for being a retard on a message board. It'll likely be a waste of my time and money and the only one to benefit will be my lawyer.

b) Stop saying promise. "Policy". Read that word carefully. A policy is not a promise. A policy is current. It has been changed before and can change again.

c) Nobody is winning a lawsuit against WotC because of perceived lost value on their speculative collectibles because they change their companies current policy on reprints.

d) There are many cases were value of cards has been undercut because of other reasons (obsolescence, bannings, etc.). Nobody (to my knowledge) sued. There are also examples of cards for which reprints had no impact or the card continued to skyrocket (see: Beta Wrath of God, Blood Moon).

e) You can make an argument that the ill will that would be directed at WotC from a segment of their customers, the long time collectors would be a deterrent to abolishing the reserved list. I'd argue however that that segment is shrinking every year with respect to those who own primarily post Masques cards.

f) Commander. It's an eternal format WotC has clearly indicated they are interested in profiting from.

The shareholder response to this in the face of hasbro as a whole would like a thimble of tears in the ocean. It would have a negligible effect on the shareholder value. Possibly negated by some nice hefty sales of Commander: Fuck the Reserved List, or From the Vaults: 10 Duals (which ironically would just increase the value of dual lands).

Thank you for bringing some sense to the discussion.

[Barook]

Yea, imagine the price of Mind Sieze if TNN had been 2 bucks online... That's going to be a reality soon.
Sure, it applies to Mind Seize as well, but I was more thinking about future products.

Imagine they would sell "From the Vaults: Spellcraft" or whatever with 14-19 crappy cards and a Force of Will - of course it would sell like candy (even with ugly new art, border and holostamp), with LGS jacking up the prices to 100+$ from the initial 40$. Let's assume shit hits the fan and due to fakes, FoW's price would drop to 20$. While it would still get the sales, it certainly would get neither the hype nor would it fetch the insane prices (which intentionally feed the LGS with money).

There's also the part of the Kitchen EDH/Cube players who never play in tournaments. Demand of those for old staples that might be reprinted in new Commander sets ceases as well (although that is more of a secondary market "problem").

[Kage]

Honest questions: If reprints are supposed to tank the price of older cards, how come Beta Birds of Paradise is still 200+ dollars, when it has been reprinted no less than 13 times, and has been / is a format staple in every environment it has ever been legal? Alpha Shivan Dragon is 800+ bucks and it's a casual card at best.

Also if you want your old cards to retain value over X year would it really matter if it's 15 or 150 bucks?

[Stephan/]

I fail to see how the difference between normal and bold font is a variance in print.


^^ none of them is in bold font - just variance. Although these two might be at extremes of the spectrum - one is to thin and one to thick in letters (also depends on amount of printing ink). Probably most of us own such cards, some even more than 10+ years old, some newer planeswalkers with white on black font where you realize easier .... they are even not able to make every corner cut exactly the same and errors just occur, thus don't blame them for using different printers for different printruns just because you are in panic. But if you want to, search your collection and destroy all "fakes" ;) - I can even make more pictures from other cards to show you that the "fakes" are everywhere xD

[Stan]

Honest questions: If reprints are supposed to tank the price of older cards, how come Beta Birds of Paradise is still 200+ dollars, when it has been reprinted no less than 13 times, and has been / is a format staple in every environment it has ever been legal? Alpha Shivan Dragon is 800+ bucks and it's a casual card at best.

Also if you want your old cards to retain value over X year would it really matter if it's 15 or 150 bucks?

The sort of people who like to play the kitchen table with style tend to be the ones who pimp out fun casual decks. Dragons are one of the most played casual decks, and Shivan is and has always been iconic. Hence the Price tag. I have a pimped out 60 card highlander dragon deck too. My Shivan is a Russian foil, if I had the means to get an Alpha specimen instead, I would switch it in a heartbeat. Very fun deck to play by the way.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The sort of people who like to play the kitchen table with style tend to be the ones who pimp out fun casual decks. Dragons are one of the most played casual decks, and Shivan is and has always been iconic. Hence the Price tag. I have a pimped out 60 card highlander dragon deck too. My Shivan is a Russian foil, if I had the means to get an Alpha specimen instead, I would switch it in a heartbeat. Very fun deck to play by the way.

Pichurez or didn't happen. And I'm 101% cereous... I want to see it, please! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Drazx9r/Animated/drool.gif

[Stan]

Pichurez or didn't happen. And I'm 101% cereous... I want to see it, please! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Drazx9r/Animated/drool.gif

I already tried to upload pictures from my phone on this site, it doesn't work for some reason. We're talking about this:

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Shivan_Dragon_Release_Promos.c1p17733.prod

Paid 12 euro for it back in the day.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I want to see the whole deck! :wink:

EDIT: But lets move this to EDH thread.

[Stan]

I want to see the whole deck! :wink:

EDIT: But lets move this to EDH thread.

Pictures will be difficult to post, would a decklist suffice?

[lordofthepit]

Honest questions: If reprints are supposed to tank the price of older cards, how come Beta Birds of Paradise is still 200+ dollars, when it has been reprinted no less than 13 times, and has been / is a format staple in every environment it has ever been legal? Alpha Shivan Dragon is 800+ bucks and it's a casual card at best.

Also if you want your old cards to retain value over X year would it really matter if it's 15 or 150 bucks?

Alpha and Beta editions of cards are not the ones we're worried about tanking.

Consider how much Revised cards have tanked as a result of reprinting.

[Star|Scream]

Alpha and Beta editions of cards are not the ones we're worried about tanking.

Consider how much Revised cards have tanked as a result of reprinting.

Why are you worried about cards tanking? Did you honestly believe that your cards' value was always going to climb until you were old and decided to trade them in for a new car or something?

[nedleeds]

Alpha and Beta editions of cards are not the ones we're worried about tanking.

Consider how much Revised cards have tanked as a result of reprinting.

I guess. Define tanking. I used to sell revised Savannah's for $4-8. If they put a new border Savannah in every box of Legacy Masters do you really think a revised Savannah would fall to $4-8. I seriously fucking doubt it. If it did what exactly is my claim? I bought Savannahs for $4-5.

The demand for the card in casual, EDH, and legacy outstrips a print run like MM. A from the vaults or commanders arsenal would hardly dent demand. Supply would be further bolstered by people who prefer foil trading in revised / unlimited Savannah's for the hideous foil abortions.

https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.sales/VMMexR6p8zo/7LkcsILjFOcJ

Should I be upset that they spiked and "sue" WotC for the reserved list making things I previously sold worth more? For every card that tanked, like ... a Wrath of God going from $10 at it's peak to about $5 now there are other that have spiked. Actually ... Wrath of God got reprinted 11 times after revised. ELEVEN. It's value went from around $10 at it's peak to $5. Including inflation and after getting reprinted ELEVEN times.

[Dice_Box]

If they are still fucking scared of the list they can print cards on it in gold and say "Hay you can play these in EDH". They would sell. The World Series set of Power 9 fetches like 75 bucks a card right now. Not even legal and your looking at 75 a card. They should do this at the very lest.

[r3dd09]

If they are still fucking scared of the list they can print cards on it in gold and say "Hay you can play these in EDH". They would sell. The World Series set of Power 9 fetches like 75 bucks a card right now. Not even legal and your looking at 75 a card. They should do this at the very lest.

World series sets? Talking about international/collector set?

[Dice_Box]

Yea, that's what they are called. Had to type that from memory and I just did a grave on the back of no sleep... Sorry bout that.

[theBloody]

Where's a post somewhere burried in the Salvation thread about this topic. Maybe someone can bother to dig it out.

Edit: It was about these ones from the MTG Salvation thread:

http://puu.sh/6eh1p.jpg

Not sure if the Salvation thread also contains the story behind it, but in the 4chan thread, it was said that a guy compared his Lilianas bought from SCG and one of those was a fake one.

How is that fake? I have same Liliana. Bought here in Czech Republic from Cerny Rytir (the biggest mtg shop here) in September. It has perfect font and spacing. Only little more bold text.

[Stephan/]

@theBloody: it's not fake - just read my posts. It's just panic and delusion of some people.

[lordofthepit]

Why are you worried about cards tanking? Did you honestly believe that your cards' value was always going to climb until you were old and decided to trade them in for a new car or something?

I never said I was.

I am implying that it is intellectually dishonest to look at prices of just Alpha/Beta cards and claim that mass reprints don't decrease the value of cards in general. The history of Magic is filled with examples of cards having dropped in value as a result of reprinting, with very few exceptions.

For the record, I don't like the Reserved List.

[Occam]

General points:

1) Counterfeits are not good. Destabilising the game for perceived short term benefits is stupid -- would anyone be comfortable with currency being counterfeited just to ease consumerist pressure? If the argument is about the reserved list and prices, argue that.
2) Stop blaming everything on collectors. Speculation and self-fulfilling price prophecies are the reasons for price spikes. You know all the times people post on the price thread about cards they bought in anticipation of rises? Welcome to speculation-ville -- population: you.
3) If you want the voices of the eternal format to be heard, this is definitely a good advertisement of why people shouldn't be taking the vocal minority seriously.
4) People wishing doom on wotc and scg for corporate greed/insert hippie left-wing spiel -- grow up.
5) Prices are high, yes. They need to come down. I'm all for the reserved list being relaxed or abolished.
6) Stop arguing that reprints don't hurt prices. Yes, beta BoPs are still high, and have been going up recently. Guess what, Menendian's data analysis didn't account for the salient possibility of prices being even higher sans reprints -- using these examples to justify reprints not hurting prices is 1) intellectually dishonest and 2) Procrustean argumentation. The reason to remove the reserved list is the health of the format -- and that is reason enough, no need to hide and obfuscate it amongst rhetoric regarding prices not being hurt.
7) Cutting down on excess expenditure is absolutely valid if you want more disposable income, regardless of whether you stay at home with your family or whether you have kids to raise and bills to pay. The latter isn't a reason why the game should be cheaper -- you derive utility from having your own property and a family, other people derive utility from having more disposable income. That's how the world works.

[Barook]

2) Stop blaming everything on collectors. Speculation and self-fulfilling price prophecies are the reasons for price spikes. You know all the times people post on the price thread about cards they bought in anticipation of rises? Welcome to speculation-ville -- population: you.
Collectors are the least problem. Most people blame speculators/hoarder. Heck, there's even a website that threats Magic cards like stocks: http://mtgstocks.com/

[nedleeds]

I never said I was.

I am implying that it is intellectually dishonest to look at prices of just Alpha/Beta cards and claim that mass reprints don't decrease the value of cards in general. The history of Magic is filled with examples of cards having dropped in value as a result of reprinting, with very few exceptions.

For the record, I don't like the Reserved List.

That's fair. Magic is also littered with examples of cards having plunged in value because they rotate from standard, or because of obsolescence. There seems to be less sandy vag from that phenomenon. People just lube up and buy the next $40 standard rare that will be $10 in 1.5 years.

My examples of the high end stuff stems from the perception that those people have the 'most' to lose. 10 more Birds of Paradise reprints to go with the 10 they've already done won't affect the price of my gold ink signed beta BoPs or my korean BoPs, same for silver inked signed Beta Wrath. I still think (opinion), a FTV sized reprint of the alpha duals in new border foil would have minimal impact on the average price of a revised dual once the initial buying, trading in and selling settle down. I think the demand would easily absorb the trade in's, the casual / edh crowd would suck up the foils, and people who think they are pimp would buy 4 of's for eternal. Closing that loop hole a few years back was retarded, we have real examples of judge foil promos bringing prices to reasonable levels on some cards (p3k which were hyper inflated), and not having any impact on others (sinkhole, sofi, snt, sneaks, bob). We also have examples of reprints in reprint sets using the mythic rarity as a handbrake, see clique, goyf, bob all of which have gone up since being reprinted.

[CaptainTwiddle]

First and foremost, I want to state that I too am all for a relaxing of the reserved list. However, I think that people might be too optimistic with their hopes about changes being made regarding WotC's reprint policy. The impression I get is that a lot of people seem to feel entitled to be able to play legacy. Let's look at Vintage as a comparison. The barrier to entry is far higher (initially) and WotC basically allowed the format to die or become very niche (now bringing it back via MTGO). To me, the creation of the Modern format seems like WotC accepting that Legacy has a high barrier of entry which they can't/are unwilling to address. I understand that Modern and Legacy are very different formats, but that's not the issue. I believe WotC is simply trying to have an eternal format for everyone. Legacy, on paper, may well be intended for those who have been playing since the early days of the game or those who are willing to buy in. For everyone else, there is MTGO.

While certain reserved list cards would be nice to have circulated in greater numbers (Tabernacle, I'm looking at you), many of those cards are only used in a narrow sample of decks; obviously, dual lands are the greatest glaring exception to this. That being said, ease of entry to the format would be greatly increased if the true staples like FoW and Wasteland were made more accessible. I think WotC has underestimated the true demand for these cards (heck, EDH players want them too). People complain about Wasteland's availability all the time, and that's a card that was Uncommon to start and has been reprinted in two different promo versions (how they didn't include it in FTV: Realms continues to blow my mind). I'm sure we'll see FoW as a judge promo soon enough; I mean, they already have the alternate MTGO artwork to use. Another more speculative theory is that they've been holding off on reprinting FoW because they may feel they might need to reprint it for Modern at some point. I know that FoW is above the power curve they want for formats these days, but it's also the glue that holds otherwise broken formats together. A slightly less powerful/ubiquitous "free" counter could be printed to address possible future issues in Modern, but that means that card is available in Legacy as well. It's the same reason we'll likely never see another decent blue cantrip, because regardless of the power level of the new card, the density of the available effect would just become too great (so I suspect we'll be stuck w/ Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions in Modern for the forseeable future, and I think Brainstorm + Ponder + Preordain is enough for Legacy).

Anyway, the summation of my rant is that I think WotC's support for Vintage/Legacy is going to turn to MTGO. Paper will exist as long as there are still people willing to play (and pay) in great numbers.

[nedleeds]

Only a sith deals in absolutes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNS4t5UCBfI

And people will always be attracted to the allure of power ...

[Dzra]

4) People wishing doom on wotc and scg for corporate greed/insert hippie left-wing spiel -- grow up.

Agree with all your points, but especially this. SCG and Wizards are in the game to make money, that's what they should try to do. There's nothing wrong with that. Wizards can make a lot of money off of reprinting dual lands and there's nothing wrong with that either.

The real reason we want them to reprint is because it'd be a major step in the right direction for making Legacy one of MTG's staple formats. It continues to baffle me that Wizards fools around with formats like Extended and Modern. People like playing with the old powerhouse cards. It's fun. Nobody wants to get badgered into playing a format where Wizards has to ban every good card.

Vintage is like a look into Magic's past. Standard is everything new and fancy. To me, and I think a lot of players, Legacy is a beautiful balance between old Magic and new Magic. Modern is just another Extended, which was always only ever Super-Standard.

Oh, and of course printing fakes is bad for the game. Even if prices are out of control (and they are), printing fakes only hurts the game.

[Russian Alara]

Related : http://magecraftia.com/viewtopic.php?f=122&t=2388&view=unread#unread

Following PolishTamales warning, one of my colleagues inquired to this Chinese company, and got this:

http://i.imgur.com/RuLPWip.png



Which is exactly what luckme10 on page 13 got as well so it seems to be one guy doing this whole counterfeit.

and the funny thing is the site is taking orders...

[Dragonslayer_90]

The real reason we want them to reprint is because it'd be a major step in the right direction for making Legacy one of MTG's staple formats. It continues to baffle me that Wizards fools around with formats like Extended and Modern. People like playing with the old powerhouse cards. It's fun. Nobody wants to get badgered into playing a format where Wizards has to ban every good card.

Vintage is like a look into Magic's past. Standard is everything new and fancy. To me, and I think a lot of players, Legacy is a beautiful balance between old Magic and new Magic. Modern is just another Extended, which was always only ever Super-Standard.

Dzra, the comparative points you made remind of something one of my friends mentioned once. We were discussing what it would take for Wizards to abolish the Reserved List. He thinks one of the conditions for such a situation would be the failure of Modern as a format (similar to how extended died eventually). I agree with him because one of the reasons Modern was created was for players who wish they could play legacy but are priced out of the format. Personally, I would hope that something else would bring about the demise of the Reserve List, but if sacrificing Modern would guarantee the long term sustainability of Legacy I would gladly welcome it.

[Barook]

and the funny thing is the site is taking orders...
Of course they do, they just lied to get the initial onslaught in check. See prateta's post on page 13.

For now, all we can do is bitch and wait until players who ordered get the new batch and see how the compare to the original thing.

[Russian Alara]

Of course they do, they just lied to get the initial onslaught in check. See prateta's post on page 13.

For now, all we can do is bitch and wait until players who ordered get the new batch and see how the compare to the original thing.

Not for long since M15 Frames come with a machine read text .. thank god!

.. then it will be calm for a few weeks:tongue:

[Lord Seth]

If they are still fucking scared of the list they can print cards on it in gold and say "Hay you can play these in EDH". They would sell. The World Series set of Power 9 fetches like 75 bucks a card right now. Not even legal and your looking at 75 a card. They should do this at the very lest.
Oh, they can do that. But they won't because it would violate the "spirit" of the Reserved List.

Not being sarcastic. That's quite literally the explanation given, except without the sarcastic quotes around the word spirit.

[PirateKing]

After reading about all the price drops as the result of rotation or bannings, it made me wonder, what would happen if the DCI one day bans dual lands from Legacy and Vintage? There is nothing in the reserved list language preventing them from doing so. And yet it would be even worse than pretty much and form of reprinting. It's not like they care for the formats, we would complain, but since when has our voices ever traveled far? As for the collectors, they'd still be just as collectable, see Alpha Chaos Orb at $300, but guarantee those "collecting" them will be devastated when they become worthless EDH only cards. I'd laugh.

[dontbiteitholmes]

After reading about all the price drops as the result of rotation or bannings, it made me wonder, what would happen if the DCI one day bans dual lands from Legacy and Vintage? There is nothing in the reserved list language preventing them from doing so. And yet it would be even worse than pretty much and form of reprinting. It's not like they care for the formats, we would complain, but since when has our voices ever traveled far? As for the collectors, they'd still be just as collectable, see Alpha Chaos Orb at $300, but guarantee those "collecting" them will be devastated when they become worthless EDH only cards. I'd laugh.

This is exactly the attitude I've been referring to in this thread. All the have-nots would love to see the game destroyed just to stick it to people who have more than them. This is why I don't see a future in this game. Also you guys seriously need to learn the difference between collectors and speculators. If it wasn't for collectors MTG never would have made it and they still play an important part in greasing the wheels that host events for everyone. There is one class of people the average MTG player should be mad at and that's speculators. They drive up prices for everyone just to make a piss-ant insignificant profit for themselves on occasion and it benefits no one but them. Crashing the market might hurt a handful of speculators who are too stupid to know when the ship is sinking and jump out with only small losses, but it also would hurt most serious players (on losing value on collections and less events), collectors, and of course dealers.

[skinnytalls]

Im glad to see scg has posted an article concerning the issue, good read
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27693_Counterfeit-Cards.html

[cheerios]

are the fakes available in english only? Or are there already reports of fake non-english cards?

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2

[dontbiteitholmes]

Im glad to see scg has posted an article concerning the issue, good read
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27693_Counterfeit-Cards.html


- Do not buy counterfeit cards deliberately for any reason. I do not care if you want them for a kitchen table game or what. If there's no money in it, fewer of these will show up to pollute our stores, and there's a chance that the counterfeiters will stop innovating and move on to something else.

This is the reason fake cards have not been a huge issue for so long and the only way to prevent any more issues going forward, unfortunately this is a line everyone seems not only willing but eager to cross. I think a lot of people are going to buy these fake cards and then be bitching and crying when the paper game contracts and the only place they have left to play is MTGO.

[Zombie]

This is exactly the attitude I've been referring to in this thread. All the have-nots would love to see the game destroyed just to stick it to people who have more than them. This is why I don't see a future in this game. Also you guys seriously need to learn the difference between collectors and speculators. If it wasn't for collectors MTG never would have made it and they still play an important part in greasing the wheels that host events for everyone. There is one class of people the average MTG player should be mad at and that's speculators. They drive up prices for everyone just to make a piss-ant insignificant profit for themselves on occasion and it benefits no one but them. Crashing the market might hurt a handful of speculators who are too stupid to know when the ship is sinking and jump out with only small losses, but it also would hurt most serious players (on losing value on collections and less events), collectors, and of course dealers.

Could you please STFU with the "have-nots crying" rhetoric? Actually, drop the please. Just STFU. Hearing people glorify the absurd prices and insult people who think piles of cardboard costing thousands is absurd is tiring as hell. "Oh you just lack character. I climbed to a mountain where I lived as a hermit and dug gold to be able to buy my Shardless deck."

Sincerely, a "have".

[SlopeeJ]

I didn't read the thread but if I could find decent cards that would allow to play/make decks I would buy them. I think the reserve list and the card prices are ridiculous. I think selling the fakes as real is wrong

[dontbiteitholmes]

Could you please STFU with the "have-nots crying" rhetoric? Actually, drop the please. Just STFU. Hearing people glorify the absurd prices and insult people who think piles of cardboard costing thousands is absurd is tiring as hell. "Oh you just lack character. I climbed to a mountain where I lived as a hermit and dug gold to be able to buy my Shardless deck."

Sincerely, a "have".

How else do you describe the post I quoted? Seriously I'm interested? Is that not exactly the mentality in play for some? Is that not the mentality that will potentially allow these counterfeits to permeate the scene?

Not even trolling, what's your input when people say things like...

After reading about all the price drops as the result of rotation or bannings, it made me wonder, what would happen if the DCI one day bans dual lands from Legacy and Vintage? There is nothing in the reserved list language preventing them from doing so. And yet it would be even worse than pretty much and form of reprinting. It's not like they care for the formats, we would complain, but since when has our voices ever traveled far? As for the collectors, they'd still be just as collectable, see Alpha Chaos Orb at $300, but guarantee those "collecting" them will be devastated when they become worthless EDH only cards. I'd laugh.

It's a sad thing but I feel like I'm just calling a spade a spade. I'd love to be wrong and this not be a big deal but seriously I think it is. What's your input?

[SlopeeJ]

Did anyone actually get any of the cards and confirm they are even a good counterfeit before everyone flames and insults? Counterfeiting has been around forever and isn't new

[Dice_Box]

The thing I find interesting is the "Haves and have nots" comments been banned around. I have at lest one full set of what must be Grade 9 Revised Duals so I do not think myself a Have not. Still I think this situation offers real chance of offering real change. That is a good thing. No matter how you look at the moral issue.

[Barook]

This post on 4chan got me thinking:


Can't you already scam people?

>hurf he sent me fakes
>take pictures of fakes
>keep real and send fakes back

I mean, these scams and chargeback things already exist and are possible. Ebay always favors the buyer in most cases too.
Ebay trading is pretty much dead at this point since you could either get fakes or get screwed over by Ebay favoring buyers.

People claim that these fakes would ruin LGS, but wouldn't it be more safe to buy stuff from your LGS where you can actually examine the card?

[Dan Turner]

We were discussing this situation at our Sunday night kitchen table magic session. We are of the conclusion that this is a godsend to LGS's. So many times we hear 'ewww I can go to place x online and get it for $1 cheaper'. Now people are going to be a little more willing to buy the $75 in person FOW vs the $60 online one if they know for a fact they are getting a real card, so if Local's are able to keep a lookout and its a trusty store this is a major step back towards helping LGS's recover market share from ebay & tcgplayer

Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.

[Quasim0ff]

After reading about all the price drops as the result of rotation or bannings, it made me wonder, what would happen if the DCI one day bans dual lands from Legacy and Vintage? There is nothing in the reserved list language preventing them from doing so. And yet it would be even worse than pretty much and form of reprinting. It's not like they care for the formats, we would complain, but since when has our voices ever traveled far? As for the collectors, they'd still be just as collectable, see Alpha Chaos Orb at $300, but guarantee those "collecting" them will be devastated when they become worthless EDH only cards. I'd laugh.

yeah, you being on a legacy/eternal forum makes a whole lot of sense….

[dontbiteitholmes]

The thing I find interesting is the "Haves and have nots" comments been banned around. I have at lest one full set of what must be Grade 9 Revised Duals so I do not think myself a Have not. Still I think this situation offers real chance of offering real change. That is a good thing. No matter how you look at the moral issue.

What good is going to come of this exactly? I mean I can see theoretical situations where that might happen so I get why people are saying that to a point but I don't think any future where this is a good thing is based in reality.


This post on 4chan got me thinking:


Ebay trading is pretty much dead at this point since you could either get fakes or get screwed over by Ebay favoring buyers.

People claim that these fakes would ruin LGS, but wouldn't it be more safe to buy stuff from your LGS where you can actually examine the card?

The problem is not so much the fakes or the scams, those have been around for a long time. The problem is the people who are saying they don't care about supporting the counterfeiters. There are a fair amount of people who would happily send $500 to counterfeiters and get mailed back bootleg playsets of every Legacy/Vintage staple. Where that demand exists you bet your ass someone is going to fill it. That's the main problem IMO. People are looking at whether to support the community that keeps the game running or support the counterfeiters and many have already vocalized they have chosen the counterfeiters. In the past people actively avoided fakes and that kept the market for them suppressed. Do you have any idea how hard it is to unload 500 playsets of fake duals to people who only want real cards? These printers literally have people beating down the door to get fake cards, it's really fucking shameful IMO but I guess that's just the world we live in now adays. The more people support counterfeiters the better the fakes get and the more the market is flooded with them. It's not a sustainable thing long term IMO, so anyone who's buying these cards on purpose, enjoy them and know you are supporting a system that is going to be responsible for ripping off countless players and collectors and take business away from the stores which host the events you play in.


We were discussing this situation at our Sunday night kitchen table magic session. We are of the conclusion that this is a godsend to LGS's. So many times we hear 'ewww I can go to place x online and get it for $1 cheaper'. Now people are going to be a little more willing to buy the $75 in person FOW vs the $60 online one if they know for a fact they are getting a real card, so if Local's are able to keep a lookout and its a trusty store this is a major step back towards helping LGS's recover market share from ebay & tcgplayer

Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.

Are you reading what people are saying about this? Lots of people aren't going to buy anything from Ebay or LGS they WANT the fake shit. It's the LGS $75 Force of Will vs. the $60 Ebay FoW, vs. the $3 chinese FoW that can't be distinguished from the real card in a sleeve.

[Dice_Box]

Just read the World War M thing. Not sure what I feel right now.

I really want come good honest change to come of this. I want to see the prices fall, I want to see the people that play the market get a scare and I want to see the game flush. I want new people to play in my format and I want Wizards to get off their FUCKING ASSES and print some Legacy cards. I want to see my own collection be worth half its value but see the amount of people playing double. But what I do not want is for the game to die. So I will say I am conflicted. Because I see some good coming from this. But I can say I see the bad too.

I still say though, fuck the hoarders, lets all play a game.

[Occam]

Could you please STFU with the "have-nots crying" rhetoric? Actually, drop the please. Just STFU. Hearing people glorify the absurd prices and insult people who think piles of cardboard costing thousands is absurd is tiring as hell. "Oh you just lack character. I climbed to a mountain where I lived as a hermit and dug gold to be able to buy my Shardless deck."

Sincerely, a "have".

I wasn't sure that zombies could ride on high horses until now.

No one is glorifying high prices. Go ahead, find one post in here from someone who is making a genuine attempt at discussion that glorifies high prices. When you fail to, realise that it is, you know, possible to dislike stupidly high prices and call out instances of blatant idiocy such as folk wanting duals to be banned just to depress prices. A move that would cripple both Vintage and Legacy. But no, calling *that* guy an idiot is akin to insulting folk who dislike high prices. Riiight.

Counterfeits are bad -- arguing as such does not equate to believing that prices should stay as such. It is to ensure that cards remain a trustworthy, fungible commodity that can trade on a certain basis with currency -- you know, the backbone of any monetary circulation in society.


So I will say I am conflicted. Because I see some good coming from this. But I can say I see the bad too.


Let's put things into perspective. You believe that counterfeits potentially lead to a situation of good because they damage the game's integrity and potentially (read: potentially, not definitely) cause a rethink in reprint policies? Do you also support supplying alcohol to drink drivers in the hope that they potentially run each other over and thus achieve an isolated extrapolation of good?

I get it, you don't like high prices. It would certainly be nice to not have to cut our noses off to spite our faces, though.

[Dice_Box]

Do you also support supplying alcohol to drink drivers in the hope that they potentially run each other over and thus achieve an isolated extrapolation of good?
If your willing to put them all in the one place, yes I can see the value in such an undertaking.

The thing is, the high prices are not a large barrier for me. I dislike them, but I am going to be getting two Tropical Islands tomorrow from my gaming store to put in my elves deck. Its not a small buy no, but I can do something like that once a month and not have to live off Ramen for the rest of the pay week. What I dislike most is the decreasing size of the Legacy Scene.

Now please, before you tell me it is bigger than ever in the States or in Germany or some shit, I do not live there. I live in Australia. Here the format is not flushing. Prices are pushing people out of the format and if the dollar drops again the Format will die. Because at that point a $120 us card will cost like 210 here. At that point its set and match. Game over. No way we can make it out of that one alive.

So yea, prices are a bitch, more so if you live in a place where the game is not massive. So to all of you in the US or the EU whom think this is all hell in a hand-basket, I have a very different view. Because I am one Mining Boom off not having my hobby any more.

[Lemnear]

How do you define "hoarder"? For me personally, all the players having near 40 duals/Fetches at home despite only playing 1-2 decks or owning multiple sets of a card for various decks (like FoW's), Qualify as "hoarders".

No. 1 argument to identify a hoarder: "i don't sell my cards (I didn't even have touched for years), in case I need them in the future and would only pay more to get them back if I sell those now..."

[PirateKing]

To Mr. dontbiteitholmes,

It would appear as though our parallel discourse has landed us at odds with regards to the nature of Magic: the Gathering. This is unfortunate, and I must take responsibility for my language and tone in crafting this impasse. It was not my intention to cast you as any adversary in this, and for that I apologize. I reflect now that the source of this discussion stems from the two of us looking upon the same object and perceiving two different things. Permit me to say, that through your eyes, Magic is a collectable card game. This is fine. As is that I can say, through my eyes I see a collectable card game. We must both recognize that these differing viewpoints are equally valid and correct.

My history to this game has always been as a game, to play and be played. Single cards cost money, some more than others, and this was all fine with me. Some cards were better than others, so why should their value to me and others not follow? But the inevitability was that they were all pieces of a whole, and that eventually a game would be played. Because if not then why bother with the whole system? Without a game at the end, these cards were no different than baseball cards, something that has never held interest in me.

Which of course is not to say that baseball cards are worthless, nor that those who do collect things like coins and dolls and lunchboxes aren't without reason in their doings. Of this group is how you appear to be identifying yourself, and again, this is fine. There is no game to be played with antique coins, and yet they have value. I cannot pretend to properly understand why, and must admit I find some of the standards a bit silly. And yet in writing this, I must reflect on the circumstances to what a collector must think as they watch person after person take highly valuable collector's items and subject them to irreversible wear and tear for no other reason that to play a children's game.

To avoid an otherwise dichotomous relationship, we must let our two differing views on this exist without belittling the others stake in the whole enterprise. It could come to pass that Magic goes the way of many other nameless CCGs it itself spawned, the cards themselves worth only their value to you, the collectors. Without a single game ever played again, a 9.5 Alpha Black Lotus will still incite some bids at auction. It has been shown that this could exist in many forms, through baseball cards and matchbox cars and any number of collectables. Likewise, a world could exist where no single card sells for more that $2.50, and yet games are plenty and thorough. Certainly games exist where the monetary value of the game pieces themselves hold no bearing upon the game itself, this could become no different.

Without otherwise holy intervention from Our Lord, Richard Garfield, Ph.D., hallowed by thy name, it is up to us, his children, to settle this dispute ourselves. To avoid an otherwise Pyrrhic victory for either party we need to find a way to abstain caustic statements and poor debate. I invite you to join me in this attempt.

[Dan Turner]

How do you define "hoarder"? For me personally, all the players having near 40 duals/Fetches at home despite only playing 1-2 decks or owning multiple sets of a card for various decks (like FoW's), Qualify as "hoarders".

No. 1 argument to identify a hoarder: "i don't sell my cards (I didn't even have touched for years), in case I need them in the future and would only pay more to get them back if I sell those now..."

So anyone who collects is a hoarder. I try to keep 4 of every card available for myself and cards I would use in more than 1 deck in sets of 8. it is called thinking ahead. Lets say that for the next year I know I am not going to play Blue, you are saying I should just sell my underground seas and then when I need them go and struggle to find them again at a reasonable price. i did that 10 years ago it cost me more then I sold at to buy back in, worst mistake of my life in concern to MTG.

The hoarders are those who brag about having 100+ FOW or 20 of each dual etc. Responsible players only keep what they need and for legacy that is 4x of each staple.

[PirateKing]

Additionally, to those calling into question my loyalty to the game regarding my self-amused conjecture at debilitating bannings, my genuine views on the game are that it is stronger than Wizards, that even in the grim dark future of no more Legacy, people will still get together and play games. That in the end, that is what we all came here for. The strength of the core fundamentals of the game is what kept players interested, not the existence of the DCI sanctioning this game but not that game. My interest to eventually go to France for just one BoM is unaffected by whether it's sanctioned or not.

[Dan Turner]

Are you reading what people are saying about this? Lots of people aren't going to buy anything from Ebay or LGS they WANT the fake shit. It's the LGS $75 Force of Will vs. the $60 Ebay FoW, vs. the $3 Chinese FoW that can't be distinguished from the real card in a sleeve.

I think there is a big difference between what a person claims they will do and what they would actually do. Sure I would love to buy these for a cube but that is a far cry from me trying to use one and and even further from actually committing a felony by knowingly purchasing these. That is the big thing, is saving that money worth a possible 10-15 years in prison for my cube I have printed a few proxies but that is a far cry from buying "semi"-real proxies.

I am more worried about those sellers who are outside the reach of US law, or even worse buyers using the bait and switch and claiming to have gotten a counterfeit and just switching cards out. Right now that is the bigger issue, someone ordering legit Jaces etc and then claiming they got a fake and sending a fake back to the seller.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I wasn't sure that zombies could ride on high horses until now.

No one is glorifying high prices. Go ahead, find one post in here from someone who is making a genuine attempt at discussion that glorifies high prices. When you fail to, realise that it is, you know, possible to dislike stupidly high prices and call out instances of blatant idiocy such as folk wanting duals to be banned just to depress prices. A move that would cripple both Vintage and Legacy. But no, calling *that* guy an idiot is akin to insulting folk who dislike high prices. Riiight.

Counterfeits are bad -- arguing as such does not equate to believing that prices should stay as such. It is to ensure that cards remain a trustworthy, fungible commodity that can trade on a certain basis with currency -- you know, the backbone of any monetary circulation in society.



Let's put things into perspective. You believe that counterfeits potentially lead to a situation of good because they damage the game's integrity and potentially (read: potentially, not definitely) cause a rethink in reprint policies? Do you also support supplying alcohol to drink drivers in the hope that they potentially run each other over and thus achieve an isolated extrapolation of good?

I get it, you don't like high prices. It would certainly be nice to not have to cut our noses off to spite our faces, though.

Yeah that's pretty much correct. I think it'd be a little full of myself to say "my official position on the reserved list is..." like that holds any sway, but if it was my call it would go out the window.

First there would be a 2 year grace period. You could mail your original duals/power/whatever into WotC or they would set up a booth at GPs and hand out new foil versions. The new reprint policy would be those cards on the reserved list would never be reprinted as foil and the only way to get them would be to trade in your old shit. After the 2 years are up WotC takes all the cards that aren't too beat that they collected and sticks them in random boosters, when those run out they start printing new versions that have a purple symbol ALA timeshifted cards. From then until the end of time whenever little Timmy opens a booster pack he might have a 1-in-1000 chance or whatever of cracking a ultra-rare throwback card (so these cards are impossible to "hoard" or markup via random distribution). I mean it's a dream obviously, but if we are living in a dream world where counterfeits fix the problems with the reserved list (hint they won't) I get to live in my fantasy as well.


I think there is a big difference between what a person claims they will do and what they would actually do. Sure I would love to buy these for a cube but that is a far cry from me trying to use one and and even further from actually committing a felony by knowingly purchasing these. That is the big thing, is saving that money worth a possible 10-15 years in prison for my cube I have printed a few proxies but that is a far cry from buying "semi"-real proxies.

I am more worried about those sellers who are outside the reach of US law, or even worse buyers using the bait and switch and claiming to have gotten a counterfeit and just switching cards out. Right now that is the bigger issue, someone ordering legit Jaces etc and then claiming they got a fake and sending a fake back to the seller.

It's not what people are claiming they will do. People on here and many elsewhere are already actively contacting people overseas trying to get these cards. Whether people are using these in the privacy of their home with friends or trying to pass them as real in trades/tournaments is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things compared to the fact they are giving money to people who fake cards, which causes them to work harder to churn out more and better fake cards.

People scamming on Ebay has always been a thing. You can literally open a package take the cards out and say the package was empty and Ebay will likely give you your money back. Luckily most people on Ebay are honest or they are just scared someone will drive to their house and rough them up if they scam since the MTG scene is pretty connected. I mean if a Magic player in Florida was to rip me off it's likely I know someone who knows someone who knows him and I'm going to have his address and contact info, so scamming Magic on Ebay is far from the perfect crime.

[Lemnear]

So anyone who collects is a hoarder. I try to keep 4 of every card available for myself and cards I would use in more than 1 deck in sets of 8. it is called thinking ahead. Lets say that for the next year I know I am not going to play Blue, you are saying I should just sell my underground seas and then when I need them go and struggle to find them again at a reasonable price. i did that 10 years ago it cost me more then I sold at to buy back in, worst mistake of my life in concern to MTG.

The hoarders are those who brag about having 100+ FOW or 20 of each dual etc. Responsible players only keep what they need and for legacy that is 4x of each staple.

Thx for proving me right.

Dood, I know peeps that hold on their Plateaus since they played Goblins in 2007 just for the same reasoning I mentioned and you confirmed. Keeping 4 of every playable card IS hoarding. Keeping 8 of the same chase cards just because of being lazy to move cards from one deck to another IS hoarding.

[dragonwisdom]

I just called WotC. The customer support office people did not know about this problem, but I am sure someone in WotC does. I encourage people to call 1 (800) 324-6496 (Consumer) Wotc to voice their displeasure. The earlier they are able to handle this, the better.

I told them that they need to take this seriously. They need teams of people policing ebay for example. ie they need to a better job protecting their brand.
It's not just up to the player base. You need lawyers and police enforcement to fix this problem. Also, I encouraged them to put something on their website advertising what they are going to do about this problem. Wotc has NOT POLICED EBAY. For many years now, I constantly see copyright infringement,when buying cards online. Even if the seller advertises it as a proxy, it is still copyright infringement. I report this item immediately to ebay. I encourage others to do the same.

just a prediction, but altered art cards are about to be banned in tournament play.

These Chinese counterfeiters need to be put in prison.

[mishima_kazuya]

Thx for proving me right.

Dood, I know peeps that hold on their Plateaus since they played Goblins in 2007 just for the same reasoning I mentioned and you confirmed. Keeping 4 of every playable card IS hoarding. Keeping 8 of the same chase cards just because of being lazy to move cards from one deck to another IS hoarding.


My 2 cents, for whatever its worth...

I dislike how speculators and other associated people are driving up the cost by hoardings tens of copies of stuff ranging from Genesis Wave to Wastelands.
However I do not consider holding onto a playset or two of staples for personal use to be hoarding. I somewhat regularly(every few months I suppose) switch decks in Legacy to stay competitive, so its in my best interests to have a playset of most duals at hand. Before I decided to get into buying Legacy staples for myself, I usually borrowed them from friends. However my life got more busy, so switching decks and then trying to find someone to borrow cards would not suffice.
I also make a good effort to try to lend out decks for Legacy and Modern events since I don't want my Remands or Fetchlands sitting in my room collecting dust.

[Arsenal]

Keeping 4 of every playable card IS hoarding.

I strongly disagree. To me, hoarding is when you see a guy with 30+ Force of Wills for no other reason than to show them off in his binder, not the guy that owns 4 Force of Wills that he uses in his High Tide deck.

[nedleeds]

How do you define "hoarder"? For me personally, all the players having near 40 duals/Fetches at home despite only playing 1-2 decks or owning multiple sets of a card for various decks (like FoW's), Qualify as "hoarders".

No. 1 argument to identify a hoarder: "i don't sell my cards (I didn't even have touched for years), in case I need them in the future and would only pay more to get them back if I sell those now..."

You haven't told us whether your term 'hoarder' is a derogatory term in your eyes. So I'm supposed to sell my beta Savannahs when I'm not using them for your benefit (actually for the local dealers benefit more likely)? Then what? Take it in the ass buying them back at double what I sold them for even if the price doesn't move? GFYS.

[theillest]

Thx for proving me right.

Dood, I know peeps that hold on their Plateaus since they played Goblins in 2007 just for the same reasoning I mentioned and you confirmed. Keeping 4 of every playable card IS hoarding. Keeping 8 of the same chase cards just because of being lazy to move cards from one deck to another IS hoarding.

I don't see much value in establishing a threshold for hoarding but it is not having a playset of legacy staples.

[Lemnear]

It doesn't require a Genius to figure out that there are many more Legacy players worldwide than full Sets of duals. It's impossible that everyone gets their full set without creating a price Helix and increasing prices over time.

Blame everybody else is too easy.

[PirateKing]

Hording isn't about quantity, it's about use, or lack of. If you have 4x of every dual and fetch, and are bringing a different build to every tournament and lending out cards you aren't using to friends and teammates to shore up their decks, then that's all fine. I know a few guys like that, their collections are like miniature store inventories, but they're constantly letting people use their stuff for tournaments. If it's being made use of, regardless of quantity, then it isn't really hording.

[Lemnear]

Hording isn't about quantity, it's about use, or lack of. If you have 4x of every dual and fetch, and are bringing a different build to every tournament and lending out cards you aren't using to friends and teammates to shore up their decks, then that's all fine. I know a few guys like that, their collections are like miniature store inventories, but they're constantly letting people use their stuff for tournaments. If it's being made use of, regardless of quantity, then it isn't really hording.

I can get behind that for reasoning, but aside from very few exception, this is more a dream than Reality.

[Darkenslight]

Yeah that's pretty much correct. I think it'd be a little full of myself to say "my official position on the reserved list is..." like that holds any sway, but if it was my call it would go out the window.

First there would be a 2 year grace period. You could mail your original duals/power/whatever into WotC or they would set up a booth at GPs and hand out new foil versions. The new reprint policy would be those cards on the reserved list would never be reprinted as foil and the only way to get them would be to trade in your old shit. After the 2 years are up WotC takes all the cards that aren't too beat that they collected and sticks them in random boosters, when those run out they start printing new versions that have a purple symbol ALA timeshifted cards. From then until the end of time whenever little Timmy opens a booster pack he might have a 1-in-1000 chance or whatever of cracking a ultra-rare throwback card (so these cards are impossible to "hoard" or markup via random distribution). I mean it's a dream obviously, but if we are living in a dream world where counterfeits fix the problems with the reserved list (hint they won't) I get to live in my fantasy as well.

This is an idea I can honestly get behind, because it moves towards still having the pimpness, whilst also allowing for a gradual uptick in Legacy. Those who have hoarded will still have the incredible value of having the 'original', whilst those who want to play can either:

1) Trade for the foil versions, which would still be somewhat expensive; or
2) Trade for the 'legendary' version, which would be much more common.

[nedleeds]

It doesn't require a Genius to figure out that there are many more Legacy players worldwide than full Sets of duals. It's impossible that everyone gets their full set without creating a price Helix and increasing prices over time.

Blame everybody else is too easy.

Why do the numbers have to equal out? What's a legacy player without legacy cards? Nobody has to play DCI events if you have an insatiable need to cast Force of Will or play an Underground Sea just print some out and play with your similarly fiending buddies. Nothing will ever stop you from doing that.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I can get behind that for reasoning, but aside from very few exception, this is more a dream than Reality.

This may be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Having 4x every Legacy staple does not make you part of the problem. It's the people sitting on a bunch of cards they never intend to use again treating them like they are Microsoft stocks or the people who buy 50x of the same card and drive up the price $5 just to make a $3 profit on each card after selling fees and shipping. I don't think I've been to an SCG in the past 3 years where I drove with someone and didn't loan out at least 10 cards and most people are the same. Back in the day that's what people did to get their friends into Legacy (before it was popular). Selling out and buying in is an idiot's game and I seriously doubt you actually do that unless you financially need to sell cards to buy new ones Lemnear.

[triplesunflower]

These Chinese counterfeiters need to be put in prison.

Just stop. This kind of attitude is disgusting.

I've done business with the company producing the forgeries. Not too long ago I sourced a container load of playing cards (that's 468,000 54-card decks) for a company wanting promotional materials. Custom printed CMYK backs and faces in custom printed tuck boxes cello-wrapped for $0.094/deck delivered to the nearest port. Yes, the decimal point is in the right place. That's razor thin margins that could split a hair. They work long hours, most live in dormitories, and many of them are only children who have rapidly aging parents they will have to care for because there's no social security, medicare, or other such equivalents in China. You try to tell poor, under educated migrant workers they can't make a little extra money putting ink to cardboard and selling it to foreigners for over 100 times what they can normally sell their products for at the same cost to themselves.

It doesn't make what they're doing right. But valuing colorful paper over human lives is reprehensible and certainly a greater crime.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Just stop. This kind of attitude is disgusting.

I've done business with the company producing the forgeries. Not too long ago I sourced a container load of playing cards (that's 468,000 54-card decks) for a company wanting promotional materials. Custom printed CMYK backs and faces in custom printed tuck boxes cello-wrapped for $0.094/deck delivered to the nearest port. Yes, the decimal point is in the right place. That's razor thin margins that could split a hair. They work long hours, most live in dormitories, and many of them are only children who have rapidly aging parents they will have to care for because there's no social security, medicare, or other such equivalents in China. You try to tell poor, under educated migrant workers they can't make a little extra money putting ink to cardboard and selling it to foreigners for over 100 times what they can normally sell their products for at the same cost to themselves.

It doesn't make what they're doing right. But valuing colorful paper over human lives is reprehensible and certainly a greater crime.

It's very unlikely the people working at this printing company have any real concept of what they are doing. It's the people placing these orders who should be punished.

[triplesunflower]

It's very unlikely the people working at this printing company have any real concept of what they are doing. It's the people placing these orders who should be punished.

Exactly.

[seamonkeyman]

At the same point, they do have an obligation to follow international copy-write laws, especially when doing business internationally. Unknowingly breaking the law is still breaking the law and the printing shop owner should still be held responsible if it continues.

[Lemnear]

This may be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Having 4x every Legacy staple does not make you part of the problem. It's the people sitting on a bunch of cards they never intend to use again treating them like they are Microsoft stocks or the people who buy 50x of the same card and drive up the price $5 just to make a $3 profit on each card after selling fees and shipping. I don't think I've been to an SCG in the past 3 years where I drove with someone and didn't loan out at least 10 cards and most people are the same. Back in the day that's what people did to get their friends into Legacy (before it was popular). Selling out and buying in is an idiot's game and I seriously doubt you actually do that unless you financially need to sell cards to buy new ones Lemnear.

Problems start at a small scale and climax at professional sellers like SCG. How would you call that friend of mine who sits on his 40 FBB but only playing blue since 2007? He has Plateaus and crap in his binder for 7 years without playing them.

I know that he and thousands of players hold on their cards in fear of price increases (that they partly cause themselves), but at least that specific guy does not complain about the prices.

[Dice_Box]

At the same point, they do have an obligation to follow international copy-write laws, especially when doing business internationally. Unknowingly breaking the law is still breaking the law and the printing shop owner should still be held responsible if it continues.

Would be a fine argument if it was not for China viewing Copyright law though the same lens as the average U torrent user.

[Dzra]

It doesn't require a Genius to figure out that there are many more Legacy players worldwide than full Sets of duals.

I'm not certain how true this is actually. There are a whole lot of dual lands out there, more than people give them credit for. A lot if them are tied up by what I'd consider "hoarders," those who own multitudes of playsets for no other reason than to hoard, meaning they don't ever actually plan on playing them. Another large chunk are tied up in the process of being bought and sold, by local stores, individuals, SCG, etc.


It's impossible that everyone gets their full set without creating a price Helix and increasing prices over time.

This is probably true, but at the same time, I don't feel entitled enough to tell people what they can and can't do with their money and their things.


Blame everybody else is too easy.

I don't blame stores or individuals at all. Although I find it distasteful, people have the right to hoard. Though you may not like it, stores need to make money and they have the right to charge you however much people will pay. The only ones I blame are Wizards because they are the only ones with the power to increase supply and make Legacy one of their flagship formats.

[triplesunflower]

At the same point, they do have an obligation to follow international copy-write laws, especially when doing business internationally. Unknowingly breaking the law is still breaking the law and the printing shop owner should still be held responsible if it continues.

Fair enough. Whatever financial levies are fine. But prison? No. It's obvious they're first timers at forging. One also needs to consider the environment. If there weren't a million nutballs around, I could post links to over a dozen companies that will produce counterfeit currency in whatever form you want and from whatever country you want and ship it straight to your door for pennies on the value. Unfortunately, if I did that, there'd probably be people buying forged M:tG cards and counterfeit currency.

Again, it doesn't make it right and while I am defending them to some extent, I'm not defending their actions. But any sane person could understand why'd they'd be so tempted to produce illegitimate products.

[Lemnear]

I don't blame stores or individuals at all. Although I find it distasteful, people have the right to hoard. Though you may not like it, stores need to make money and they have the right to charge you however much people will pay. The only ones I blame are Wizards because they are the only ones with the power to increase supply and make Legacy one of their flagship formats.

Sure you have the right to hoard as much as you want for whatever reason. You can support several decks at once, flip them for money, etc.

The only thing these people have NO right for, is hoarding cards without using them, but pointing fingers at others to decrease the supply, causing the beforementioned price Helix.

[Tormod]

2 Comments

1). Pretty sure a large volume printing company shipping globally is aware what the little C and R mean for copyright.

2) Get back on topic. Who cares what Lemnear definition of Hoarding is? (nothing personal)

[triplesunflower]

Pretty sure a large volume printing company shipping globally is aware what the little C and R mean for copyright.

No argument. It's illegal, and wrong. But don't be surprised. Large volume doesn't equal large profits. Do roughly $10,000,000 in revenue a year, scrape a 2% margin off of that, and then pay wages to thirty or so people.

Few wouldn't find forging extremely tempting at that point, especially when there's dozens or hundreds of other companies in the area doing the same thing.

All I'm arguing for is a little bit of compassion for people rather than screaming for them to be hung from the tallest tree.

[Stan]

I just called WotC. The customer support office people did not know about this problem, but I am sure someone in WotC does. I encourage people to call 1 (800) 324-6496 (Consumer) Wotc to voice their displeasure. The earlier they are able to handle this, the better.

I told them that they need to take this seriously. They need teams of people policing ebay for example. ie they need to a better job protecting their brand.
It's not just up to the player base. You need lawyers and police enforcement to fix this problem. Also, I encouraged them to put something on their website advertising what they are going to do about this problem. Wotc has NOT POLICED EBAY. For many years now, I constantly see copyright infringement,when buying cards online. Even if the seller advertises it as a proxy, it is still copyright infringement. I report this item immediately to ebay. I encourage others to do the same.

just a prediction, but altered art cards are about to be banned in tournament play.

These Chinese counterfeiters need to be put in prison.

With cheap fakes for sale now, that would be the single dumbest thing for them to do. Guys with heavily altered playsets of FoW's, Liliana's, duals or whatever, who played with their expensive pimped stuff for years, will then be forced by WotC to find replacements for their expensive cards if they want to continue playing. Piss off a bunch of people by making their expensive stuff worthless, forcing them to replace it, when cheap fakes are out there now. You do the math.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Problems start at a small scale and climax at professional sellers like SCG. How would you call that friend of mine who sits on his 40 FBB but only playing blue since 2007? He has Plateaus and crap in his binder for 7 years without playing them.

I know that he and thousands of players hold on their cards in fear of price increases (that they partly cause themselves), but at least that specific guy does not complain about the prices.

Well I'm pretty sure I said people who sit on cards and don't use them are part of the supply problem but I wouldn't be mad at them. The only people who have my distain are the speculators. I wouldn't even be as mad if they were actually making real money, at least I could understand then, but most of them are living pipe dreams and justifying it because Magic is their hobby and selling a card for more then they paid for it gives them a nerd boner. I'm pretty sure if you audited the average MTG speculator they would make significantly less than minimum wage for their efforts all things considered and the net result is everyone pays more. If this wasn't true the "bitching about prices" thread would still be full of genius "magic investors" like it was 2-3 years ago. Obviously though most of them ate shit trying to be too clever for their own good and buying a whole bunch of crap they didn't need.

[Honorik]

Good article about the Chinese Counterfeit Goods - http://www.businessinsider.com/most-counterfeit-goods-are-from-china-2013-6

Hasbro should do something and should do it asap.

Anyone who think that this is good for the game has lost his mind. This pretty much could be the end of paper magic.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I wasn't sure that zombies could ride on high horses until now.

No one is glorifying high prices. Go ahead, find one post in here from someone who is making a genuine attempt at discussion that glorifies high prices.

Lol. This forum is plagued by "I love that the high prices kick the scrubs out of my lsd..." and similar stuff.



Permit me to say, that through your eyes, Magic is a collectable card game. This is fine. As is that I can say, through my eyes I see a collectable card game.
This, thousand times.
It's a game. I played it in a pub and lost a Savannah. If I'd lost a rook in chess, I'd either thrown the set away and buy a new one or maybe I'd carve the missing rook of a stick, or whatever. Losing the Sav (yeah, tell me how I'm stupid, I love when ppl act like they ate all the wisdom in world and shit never happened to them, cause they're grandmaster Spot Object on Ground) cost me USD 60 or so, I can't tell the exact price and it doesn't even matter that much. This goes to all those "I got all, don't need to buy anything" and all those "you should have boguht them years ago", etc.; morale of the story is : (a) you may need new stuff even if you "have everything" and then it costs money, and (b) this game is no more meant to be played relaxed and in ease. The day I lost the Sav I thrown the EDH cards to binder, coz what's the point of dicking around the pub with a deck worthy 3000 USD and be constantly afraid that you lose/spill soda on something. Would you play marbles with golden marbles? Bah...
I miss the days when we were playing on the street under the lamp on a desk we've found on school garden and we didn't even counted our sixty when we were leaving, because even though they were the Good_Stuff.dec and the best in it's time (Necroknights, Zoo, Erhnam-and-Burn-'em, Erhnamgeddon, UW Control and such), because the most expensive cards were the Forces for 60 crowns and Erhnam Djinns for 90. And this was when one dollar was for 45 crowns.

I won't be playing children's pictorial game when the pictures cost two thousand crowns.



just a prediction, but altered art cards are about to be banned in tournament play.

Yep. That was the reason why I hesitated to BB-alter my UNL Trops even MONTH AGO. Now I'm a bit sad...



You haven't told us whether your term 'hoarder' is a derogatory term in your eyes. So I'm supposed to sell my beta Savannahs when I'm not using them for your benefit (actually for the local dealers benefit more likely)? Then what? Take it in the ass buying them back at double what I sold them for even if the price doesn't move? GFYS.
Pretty much this.

[sdematt]

A friend got his set in from the manufacturer. Nothing to worry about, ladies and gents. If you touch the cards when you're not wearing heavy winter gloves, you can tell they're not the same.

-Matt

[danyul]

Matt, would it be possible for you to upload pictures of a fake next to a real card? Knowing that they feel different is reassuring, but being able to visually spot the differences will definitely help people who want to detect fakes when buying online.

Edit - even better! Thanks for the info!

[sdematt]

The person is making a youtube video, actually.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

How do the fakes feel when double-sleeved?

[Dice_Box]

What about a sleaved card?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What about a sleaved card?
Anyone byuinf a sleeved card BEFORE this affiar was a hazarder. Anyone doing it now is... I don't even.
Oh, you meant if they are distinguishible during tournament? Then I'm also interested!

[Barook]

This pretty much could be the end of paper magic.
Unlikely - they make the most money with Standard and M15 already has changes at hand to keep them safe, at least for a while.

If Hasbro had the power to actually stop those knock-offs, then knock-off Transformers wouldn't be such a huge problem.

Yes, those fakes are bad for the game, but so are hoarders (which I consider to be people who own way more than a playset of cards for the sole purpose of reselling them later at a profit) and especially market cornering to increase prices. Whether or not it's just SCG or other big players involved is up to debate, but this practice is not only shady, but downright disgusting. While we're arguing here, there has been a large-scale buyout for Cabal Therapy for not apparent reason.

There's absolutely nothing that supports this sudden increase in demand (unlike Stoneforge, which saw a similiar price spike on MODO).

Remember how we had threads about the format dying due to lack of supply thanks to the Reserve List and everincreasing prices? Those people are out there to choke the format slowly to death with absurd prices. SCG has done great things to promote the format, but I think they should get a free pass for that. Let's not forget that they're not only among the biggest price gougers and they also run Legacy solely for business reasons. They have shown their true colors pretty clearly last year that they would drop Legacy in a heartbeat if it isn't profitable enough anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate SCG and I love their Opens, but I hate their particuluar business strategy of exploiting the secondary market like that. I wouldn't even be suprised if there were price rigging between the biggest sites. When everybody rises the price by 10$, it's easy profit for everyone with no risk involved. There's no antitrust division to stop them and Wizards doesn't bother either.

@sdematt: What about being sleaved? Aside from that, the new batch isn't even out yet since it takes 10 days to make them, according to the info we have.

[sdematt]

Too thin, too smooth. This will be better told once the video is up.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Too thin, too smooth. This will be better told once the video is up.

-Matt

I look forward to it. I double-sleeve all of my cards so I'm not sure how the smoothness would be able to be detected. Perhaps the thinness would raise a red flag, but it would have to be substantially different to be able to detected.

[ESG]

I've done business with the company producing the forgeries. Not too long ago I sourced a container load of playing cards (that's 468,000 54-card decks) for a company wanting promotional materials. Custom printed CMYK backs and faces in custom printed tuck boxes cello-wrapped for $0.094/deck delivered to the nearest port. Yes, the decimal point is in the right place. That's razor thin margins that could split a hair. They work long hours, most live in dormitories, and many of them are only children who have rapidly aging parents they will have to care for because there's no social security, medicare, or other such equivalents in China. You try to tell poor, under educated migrant workers they can't make a little extra money putting ink to cardboard and selling it to foreigners for over 100 times what they can normally sell their products for at the same cost to themselves.

People all over the world live in different economic situations. Even if you're from a slum or in a warzone, that doesn't mean that it's suddenly morally right to steal or kill or rape. At least some of the people in this counterfeiting operation are aware of what they are doing. See prateta's post on Page 14 where he cites a conversation with an employee.

[Dice_Box]

I do not think it is "Nothing to worry about" so much as it is "This time, the Status Quo is intact".

Also thickness would be hard to notice if you both Double Sleeve your card and play cards that the opponent is unlikely to need to touch. I see no reason you need to pick up my Goyf. I play it, you know what it does, lets beat face.

@ ESG, Not sure what Rape has to do with this at all.

[twndomn]

What does this thread have anything to do with standard of living in China? The thread is about counterfeiting, get over the China part.

Fact: There're Many Many countries in the world, counterfeiting U.S. Dollar bills, 24 hours a day everyday.

Here's another fact, you don't hear those counterfeiting currency to be on the news, cause most fake Bills don't pass currency tests. Why is this a big deal all the sudden? Because WotC has given the license to print money for more than 13+ years and finally the counterfeiting technology of Magic card has reached to the official printing technology. WotC has itself to blame, for not advancing its counterfeit measures.

The market fluctuation on pricing is primary the secondary market, which WotC has no control over. Don't ask WotC for unreasonable things.

[ESG]

@Dice_Box: Triplesunflower is defending the actions of the counterfeiters by claiming that their actions are borne out of poor living conditions. I'm saying that this doesn't change whether something is morally right or wrong, whether that extends to theft or murder or rape, or any other heinous action a person could do. You don't get a free pass to steal cars or counterfeit money if you're poor, so let's put that notion to rest right now.

I guess I was naive, but I felt that my fellow Legacy players would recognize counterfeiting as a pernicious thing, just as bag-snatching would be, and yet people are making all kinds of excuses and rationalizations. It's illegal, it's wrong, and it's harmful to everyone.

[Barook]

The market fluctuation on pricing is primary the secondary market, which WotC has no control over. Don't ask WotC for unreasonable things.
They can reprint stuff in adequate quantities to keep the price spiral in check, but they chose not to. We wouldn't have 150$ Goyfs now if Wizards hadn't put Goyf at Mythic Rarity in a set with an extremely limited print run despite demand.

Wizards is the main reason why the secondary market went so much out of control.

Whether or not it's better to follow Konami's strategy for Yu-Gi-Oh! to reprint the shit out of everything that is worth money to destroy any secondary market value is debatable, but it keeps the game accessible. It's a hard fact that they sell significantly more cards than Wizards (they hold the Guiness world record) and most likely have a higher revenue from Yu-Gi-Oh! as well.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Whether or not it's better to follow Konami's strategy for Yu-Gi-Oh! to reprint the shit out of everything that is worth money to destroy any secondary market value is debatable, but it keeps the game accessible. It's a hard fact that they sell significantly more cards than Wizards (they hold the Guiness world record) and most likely have a higher revenue from Yu-Gi-Oh! as well.

Yu-Gi-Oh is basically only Legacy and Vintage, there is no equivilent of Standard so every card that has ever been printed is still legal in every format unless it is banned. There are regularly ultra-rare cards that are worth several hundreds of dollars for a season or three and good to the point where you basically need them to play at a top tier level only to be reprinted as a common in a new set and be worth pennies (of course at this point if you are a serious player you might have had to invest to stay competitive). Yu-Gi-Oh also has super exclusive cards that you could only obtain by say, going to a mall opening in downtown Tokyo and seeing a specific movie on a given weekend or stupid shit like that and sometimes those cards are apparently OP and super rare so they are worth stupid loot (until they get reprinted 2 years later as a common of course.) Yu-Gi-Oh is the pinnacle of screw the people who have any money cards you guys should check it out lol. At least that's my understanding of it I've never played the game but I know many people who have and they all complain about how stupid the reprint system is.

What Magic needs is a slow release valve. You may or may not like the collectible nature of the game but it ensures the dealers make money which is why Magic is so well supported compared to every other card game ever put together. That said it's unwise from WotC's standpoint to make a habit of crashing the value of power cards. The better approach is to have a yearly product similar to Modern Masters. Sure the first go round some prices went down, a very few went up, and many more were stabilized. Say the average reprint went down 10% in price but is still too high, if you run that back next year it might go down another 6%, and the next year it might go down another 5% then be in a more fair range and from that point you can just maybe skip a year and throw it in 2 years down the road to keep the price somewhat stable. I think WotC is starting to realize that they can't have Modern be full of hundred dollar bills and they are experimenting with various ways to control prices without taking the piss out of everyone's collection or more importantly dealer's stock. I think MM and the new Modern event deck speak to that but we'll see what happens. Unfortunately there is no easy answer for Legacy they really painted themselves into a corner with the reprint policy then went back a few years ago and laid down a second coat...

[twndomn]

I guess I was naive, but I felt that my fellow Legacy players would recognize counterfeiting as a pernicious thing, just as bag-snatching would be, and yet people are making all kinds of excuses and rationalizations. It's illegal, it's wrong, and it's harmful to everyone.

It's illegal in United States, is it illegal in every other countries in the world?

It's wrong by your morale judgement, and that's subjective. The only wrong is that the counterfeiter are making profit without the artist's permission. The artist already got his or her cut from WotC.

How is it Harmful to Everyone? If there's a demand, counterfeiting is simply increasing the supply. For people would could not jump the price hurdle, increasing supply actually provide lower barrier to entry, more accessible to all the players barred from Legacy. I don't know about you, I want more people to get into Legacy, through legitimate cards or counterfeit cards, I don't care.

[MGB]

The only way you can say that counterfeiting is absolutely "harmful" is if you make the argument that it hurts tournament support for the Legacy scene by directly hitting big traders like StarCityGames which host tournaments, and by directly hitting the manufacturer of the cards that makes new sets (Wizards).

If Legacy players were to take matters into their own hands and host tournaments independently of big players like StarCityGames, then really, flooding the market with cheap staples will do nothing harmful to the individual players themselves. It will only lower the barrier of entry and introduce more players to the game.

Counterfeits are a big threat to companies like StarCityGames and Wizards, obviously, and to traders that make their living buying and selling cards. That's about it. The players themselves are only affected by proxy as explained above.

[Norm]

I look forward to it. I double-sleeve all of my cards so I'm not sure how the smoothness would be able to be detected. Perhaps the thinness would raise a red flag, but it would have to be substantially different to be able to detected.

That's a dangerous one, some foreign print runs of cards were thinner and some were smoother. I've actually opened Japanese time spiral packs and I can tell you with certainty that those are thinner than most magic cards.

Similarly, the Japanese worldwake and Japanese new phyrxia packs were A LOT smoother than the English counterparts.


EDIT: This really only applies to foreign cards in my experience, so if you've got noticeably different English cards then it could be a sign of fakes.

[JBlaze]

It's illegal in United States, is it illegal in every other countries in the world?

It's wrong by your morale judgement, and that's subjective. The only wrong is that the counterfeiter are making profit without the artist's permission. The artist already got his or her cut from WotC.

How is it Harmful to Everyone? If there's a demand, counterfeiting is simply increasing the supply. For people would could not jump the price hurdle, increasing supply actually provide lower barrier to entry, more accessible to all the players barred from Legacy. I don't know about you, I want more people to get into Legacy, through legitimate cards or counterfeit cards, I don't care.


No i do not want more people playing Legacy or magic in general if they are using bootleg cards to do it. Counterfeit cards are bad for the game period get it through your fucking skull. Every pro counterfeit argument is basically just an attempt to justify something that is illegal and immoral. Yes the reserve list sucks, speculators suck, prices are to high, guess what none of that makes it okay. If you buy these you are supporting a Chinese crime syndicate but hey you don't care so whatever. Go play Pog's asshole

[Norm]

No i do not want more people playing Legacy or magic in general if they are using bootleg cards to do it. Counterfeit cards are bad for the game period get it through your fucking skull. Every pro counterfeit argument is basically just an attempt to justify something that is illegal and immoral. Yes the reserve list sucks, speculators suck, prices are to high, guess what none of that makes it okay. If you buy these you are supporting a Chinese crime syndicate but hey you don't care so whatever. Go play Pog's asshole

Pog's Asshole, sounds like an interesting game.


Oh I kill myself sometimes...

[MGB]

No i do not want more people playing Legacy or magic in general if they are using bootleg cards to do it. Counterfeit cards are bad for the game period get it through your fucking skull. Every pro counterfeit argument is basically just an attempt to justify something that is illegal and immoral. Yes the reserve list sucks, speculators suck, prices are to high, guess what none of that makes it okay. If you buy these you are supporting a Chinese crime syndicate but hey you don't care so whatever. Go play Pog's asshole

Clearly someone here makes his money buying and selling Magic cards.

You know, some people just enjoy *the game itself*. Those people could care less what counterfeits do to Joe Trader or Big Box Dealer Company's bottom lines. All counterfeits mean, in the end, for the players are two things:

a.) MORE players, MORE games.
and
b.) possibly less tournaments or less well-supported big tournaments (grand prix / SCG support declining)

a. is clearly good. b. is bad, but whether tournaments can be run by the player community that are as good as what SCG and Wizards run or not remains to be seen.

[JBlaze]

Clearly someone here makes his money buying and selling Magic cards.

You know, some people just enjoy *the game itself*. Those people could care less what counterfeits do to Joe Trader or Big Box Dealer Company's bottom lines. All counterfeits mean, in the end, for the players are two things:

a.) MORE players, MORE games.
and
b.) possibly less tournaments or less well-supported big tournaments (grand prix / SCG support declining)

a. is clearly good. b. is bad, but whether tournaments can be run by the player community that are as good as what SCG and Wizards run or not remains to be seen.

Nope just a regular magic player with beat up revised dual's. If you think that counterfeits are only going to hurt the big boy's and not people that "just enjoy the game it's self" then you have your head up your butt.

[Barook]

a. is clearly good. b. is bad, but whether tournaments can be run by the player community that are as good as what SCG and Wizards run or not remains to be seen.
What about Bazaar of Moxen? I don't think it's impossible to do more and regular events as long as

a) people who run the event plan accordingly in advance and
b) have good price support to draw enough people.

While it isn't easy and requires quite a bit of resources, I don't think it's undoable.

[mishima_kazuya]

The only way you can say that counterfeiting is absolutely "harmful" is if you make the argument that it hurts tournament support for the Legacy scene by directly hitting big traders like StarCityGames which host tournaments, and by directly hitting the manufacturer of the cards that makes new sets (Wizards).

If Legacy players were to take matters into their own hands and host tournaments independently of big players like StarCityGames, then really, flooding the market with cheap staples will do nothing harmful to the individual players themselves. It will only lower the barrier of entry and introduce more players to the game.

Counterfeits are a big threat to companies like StarCityGames and Wizards, obviously, and to traders that make their living buying and selling cards. That's about it. The players themselves are only affected by proxy as explained above.

Part of the allure of Legacy to a lot of players is the high value prize tournaments. Without expensive staples there is not incentive for me to keep the store credit I obtain at various Legacy $1K's, I would just take cash at a lower percentage if I did not have the chance to pick up a dual land with my prize credit.

And I would also miss the 40 dual land, other dual land sets, Jace TMS, and Tarmogoyf tournaments.

WotC should try to keep their formats within reasonable entry barriers by reprinting $50+ cards, ranging from Dark Confidant all the way to Underground Sea. But they should, as others have already said, not crash the market. It would be great if Tarmogoyfs only costed $50 and Underground Seas only costed $100.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The only way you can say that counterfeiting is absolutely "harmful" is if you make the argument that it hurts tournament support for the Legacy scene by directly hitting big traders like StarCityGames which host tournaments, and by directly hitting the manufacturer of the cards that makes new sets (Wizards).

If Legacy players were to take matters into their own hands and host tournaments independently of big players like StarCityGames, then really, flooding the market with cheap staples will do nothing harmful to the individual players themselves. It will only lower the barrier of entry and introduce more players to the game.

Counterfeits are a big threat to companies like StarCityGames and Wizards, obviously, and to traders that make their living buying and selling cards. That's about it. The players themselves are only affected by proxy as explained above.

What kind of logic is that? The only thing counterfeits hurt is every business that makes, sells, or supports MTG... Yeah I mean if yanking the rug out from under the people who are hosting all the events that make it worth owning cards doesn't hurt players down the line...

You do realize there's nothing to stop you now from hosting your own events. You could even allow proxies which would eliminate the need for counterfeits. In fact there's absolutely nothing to stop you from doing this RIGHT NOW. If you don't like that sanctioned events require real cards and your solution is to saturate the market with fakes and ruin the established tournament scene so you can play with pretty looking proxies wouldn't the better solution be just to host you own tournaments, allow proxies, and NOT RUIN the extremely well run and supported nationwide Legacy scene that SCG provides as well as countless dealers and LGS nationwide who provide places to play?


It's illegal in United States, is it illegal in every other countries in the world?

It's wrong by your morale judgement, and that's subjective. The only wrong is that the counterfeiter are making profit without the artist's permission. The artist already got his or her cut from WotC.

How is it Harmful to Everyone? If there's a demand, counterfeiting is simply increasing the supply. For people would could not jump the price hurdle, increasing supply actually provide lower barrier to entry, more accessible to all the players barred from Legacy. I don't know about you, I want more people to get into Legacy, through legitimate cards or counterfeit cards, I don't care.

What the hell? Really I mean I can't even begin to address this. Seriously dude what's your deal are you a teenager? What do you do for a living? I can't even begin to imagine an adult would write this.


Every pro counterfeit argument is basically just an attempt to justify something that is illegal and immoral.

This thread in a nutshell.

[Barook]

So Maro acknowledged the issue today, even while just giving a run-of-the-mill answer:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/73225449856/your-thoughts-on-the-counterfeit-ring-in-china-give-us#notes

About the SCG article: What exactly does this article try to accomplish? Fear mongering?

Hilarious side note: If you don't want people to buy fakes, then DON'T POST PICTURES WITH THE UNCENSORED LINK IN THE ARTICLE!

It's like a guide for the masses to buy fakes. Good fucking job, dude! :rolleyes:

[twndomn]

No i do not want more people playing Legacy or magic in general if they are using bootleg cards to do it. Counterfeit cards are bad for the game period get it through your fucking skull. Every pro counterfeit argument is basically just an attempt to justify something that is illegal and immoral. Yes the reserve list sucks, speculators suck, prices are to high, guess what none of that makes it okay. If you buy these you are supporting a Chinese crime syndicate but hey you don't care so whatever. Go play Pog's asshole

Illegal and Immoral by whose standard? Your parent's standard? Law by in your town?

People who care about arbitrary values of a piece of paper or commodity are called traders, collectors. We don't describe these people as Players. Players like to design decks, play Magic cards in competition, argue about deck match-ups in theory. Players don't like to spend time on card prices. You need cards for a deck, you acquire them. It's people like you, crying foul and all in pretense, when all you care about is making profit off trading commodity in the secondary market. What do you know about playing this game?

[Voncaster]

So Maro acknowledged the issue today, even while just giving a run-of-the-mill answer:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/73225449856/your-thoughts-on-the-counterfeit-ring-in-china-give-us#notes

About the SCG article: What exactly does this article try to accomplish? Fear mongering?

Hilarious side note: If you don't want people to buy fakes, then DON'T POST PICTURES WITH THE UNCENSORED LINK IN THE ARTICLE!

It's like a guide for the masses to buy fakes. Good fucking job, dude! :rolleyes:

I should state that I'm against piracy, and do not support counterfeits.

However, the SCG article has a serious conflict of interest; advice on what to do with MTG cards from an MTG dealer. I would be much more interested in what WotC has to say on the matter. An article from SCG that states, don't sell your cards and please buy our cards I think leaves a lot to be desired.

Why would SCG not want you to sell cards? They are getting an influx of sales requests, its a ton of work to now verify the authenticity of numerous cards, or they fear a mass exodus from the game.

If Wizards wants to meet this problem head on, they need to issue a statement detailing their game plan. Or their needs to be a collation of MTG dealers that adhere to some sort of code of conduct for buying and selling. One dealer telling me to keep buying from said dealer is not all that helpful.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Illegal and Immoral by whose standard? Your parent's standard? Law by in your town?

People who care about arbitrary values of a piece of paper or commodity are called traders, collectors. We don't describe these people as Players. Players like to design decks, play Magic cards in competition, argue about deck match-ups in theory. Players don't like to spend time on card prices. You need cards for a deck, you acquire them. It's people like you, crying foul and all in pretense, when all you care about is making profit off trading commodity in the secondary market. What do you know about playing this game?

Counterfeiting is illegal everywhere that matters. It's illegal in China as well, occasionally there are raids to break up counterfeiting rings. It's illegal by every standard that could possibly matter for the sake of this discussion, yes including the law in your town. By knowingly ordering fake cards you would be breaking US laws (or wherever you live).

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.

What are you even doing? I mean you are going so far around your ass with this logic I don't even see where you are coming from. No one here is really making money off MTG we don't want this to get out of hand because it will hurt the people who host events and then there will be less events. I'm sorry you don't like paying for cards, I don't like paying for anything, but people don't hold events and host FNMs out of the goodness of their hearts. Read this article it will lay out the general reasons people disagree with counterfeiting. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27693_Counterfeit-Cards.html

[prateta]

More info

from the chinese guy who is sending me the free samples. They should arrive this week, will post a short review when I get my hands on them.

I talked to the man today and tried to get some more information from him. This is what I've got. Wanna see my last post with information regarding the alleged police raid and lost in spam? Click here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780944&viewfull=1#post780944).

New info:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2rfrpys.jpg

[twndomn]

What are you even doing? I mean you are going so far around your ass with this logic I don't even see where you are coming from. No one here is really making money off MTG we don't want this to get out of hand because it will hurt the people who host events and then there will be less events. I'm sorry you don't like paying for cards, I don't like paying for anything, but people don't hold events and host FNMs out of the goodness of their hearts. Read this article it will lay out the general reasons people disagree with counterfeiting. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27693_Counterfeit-Cards.html

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

[JBlaze]

Illegal and Immoral by whose standard? Your parent's standard? Law by in your town?

People who care about arbitrary values of a piece of paper or commodity are called traders, collectors. We don't describe these people as Players. Players like to design decks, play Magic cards in competition, argue about deck match-ups in theory. Players don't like to spend time on card prices. You need cards for a deck, you acquire them. It's people like you, crying foul and all in pretense, when all you care about is making profit off trading commodity in the secondary market. What do you know about playing this game?



umm... illegal by international and United states Trademark and intellectual property law your just trolling

Here is a secret. Most players are also collectors. I don't have a lot of money but instead of all hailing our new Chinese overlords I participate in magic finance, not to get rich just to make Magic pay for Magic. I actually find the selling part to be tedious but if you buy/sell/trade smart you can offset some or all of the cost

I really want to stand up on the table during a game and take a giant dump Chaos Orb style all over your cards just to see how much you really care about value. Or how bout this, I have a bunch of counterfeit money that I collected working graveyard shift in a ghetto ass gas station most of last year. If you don't care about the value of little pieces of paper trade me some real money for them bro. You don't know me so don't try to paint me out to be something I'm not just so you can continue to justify illegal activity. Its called a strawman argument and it ain't gonna fly brother.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

Seriously guys, I'm not even going to respond to this one, just read my previous posts and know if you support counterfeits this guy is on your side.

[JBlaze]

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

People murder rape and steal ALL THE TIME does not make it right. but I guess that's not your concern, your concern is to get cheap goods and to hell with anything that stands in your way.

[Tormod]

First True-Name Nemesis, now this!

What's the world come to?

[Lord Seth]

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.
Here or in general?

Because we have to stop and ask ourselves why counterfeiting commercial items is illegal. Note my usage of commercial items; I'm not talking about stuff made by the government like money (that's a different matter), I'm talking about stuff like counterfeiting Magic cards.

The reason it's against the law to counterfeit Magic cards is copyright laws. Wizards of the Coast owns the copyright on the cards, so it's copyright infringement to make a copy of them. Now, there are a cases where copyright infringement is legal thanks to "fair use" (for example, technically just posting a picture of a card is copyright infringement, but Wizards of the Coast sure as heck doesn't care and even if they did they'd get laughed out of court, so it's not illegal copyright infringement), but that's another matter entirely. Counterfeiting does not fall under fair use.

The question then becomes, why does copyright exist and does that reason hold place here? The reason copyright exists is presumably that if someone makes something, they should be able to be the one to make money off of it. If you wrote a book that's popular, you should be the one making money from it, rather than someone else just grabbing it and selling their own copies of it. It lets you put your work out to the public while being secure that someone else can't legally take it without your permission.

Here's where things get sticky. The idea is to make it so that the copyright holder, who actually made the thing, is the one allowed to profit off of it. But in this case, Wizards of the Coast is actively refusing to do so with the Reserved List. Might as well continue with my book publisher: It's like after making a book with a limited run, a lot of people want to buy more copies, but the publisher refuses to do so (or the author somehow refuses to let the publisher do so). In this case, the copyright is not really serving the purpose it was intended for, namely letting the copyright holder to be the one who gets to profit from it. After all, they're not making any profit on it because they refuse to make more copies. This to a certain extent also applies to non-Reserved List cards that they do not reprint.

It's kind of like the situation you might find yourself in if you really want to watch a TV show that's off the air, but the copyright holder has not released it on DVD or put it on any streaming service, or games that are now out of print. Certainly it's copyright infringement to download a copy online, and it's illegal... but at the same time, they're not making any money off of it and are refusing to actually use their copyright. When one considers the reason for copyright in the first place, is making copies (e.g. putting episodes online for download) really against the spirit of the law?

In fact, what is striking about the particular case of Magic is that despite their refusal to sell more copies of certain cards, Wizards of the Coast still requires you to obtain them for sanctioned tournaments.

When we consider the reason why copyright is supposed to exist in the first place, it seems quite arguable that due to Wizards of the Coast's actions, copyright is not actually protecting what it is supposed to protect and thus perhaps violating it in that case should not be illegal. The idea of a "use it or lose it" clause for copyright is interesting, though it would be difficult to implement and would almost certainly never actually be passed as law.

[luckme10]

Maro says:

creatingpseudonyms asked: Your thoughts on the counterfeit ring in China? Give us some assurance to calm us down : )

We are very much aware of the issue and are working towards a swift resolution to it. We have a lot of tools at our disposal to help resolve this problem and I can assure you those resources are being used.
January 13, 2014
30 notes



Hear that everyone WotC has top men working on it right now!
Who?
Top men!

[dontbiteitholmes]

TL;DR

I scanned that and decided I'm not gonna read a whole bunch of copyright theory you crafted out of your ass. I'm glad you think copyright laws should be rewritten based on your primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law, but you waxing philosophic on what copyright means to you personally actually doesn't mean anything.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards.
...an it hurts the people who already got the cards. You know - me, you, etc.

[Octopusman]

I do not think it is "Nothing to worry about" so much as it is "This time, the Status Quo is intact".

Also thickness would be hard to notice if you both Double Sleeve your card and play cards that the opponent is unlikely to need to touch. I see no reason you need to pick up my Goyf. I play it, you know what it does, lets beat face.

@ ESG, Not sure what Rape has to do with this at all.

I have opponents shuffle my decks constantly when in a tournament. I'm not sure about you guys but during competitive play this is pretty common/expected.

[Dice_Box]

Yes, but one card in 60 is hard to pick out. Like, borderline impossible.

[Lord Seth]

I scanned that and decided I'm not gonna read a whole bunch of copyright theory you crafted out of your ass.Then why bother characterizing it if you didn't even read the thing?

I'm glad you think copyright laws should be rewrittenI'm glad you didn't actually read my post and thus came to that faulty conclusion.

based on your primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law,In what way do I have "primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law"? You can't just claim something like that without at least giving a real explanation. I've read a decent amount about copyright law, so if my understanding is somehow faulty, I would actually like to be informed of how. Is your issue that I didn't bring up the related non-copyright issues, e.g. trademarks?
but you waxing philosophic on what copyright means to you personally actually doesn't mean anything.
And neither does your post because you just admitted you didn't read it. Maybe if you actually read it rather than "scanned" it you wouldn't be arguing against a strawman.

[CorwinB]

What about Bazaar of Moxen? I don't think it's impossible to do more and regular events as long as

a) people who run the event plan accordingly in advance and
b) have good price support to draw enough people.

While it isn't easy and requires quite a bit of resources, I don't think it's undoable.

Bazar of Moxen is actually organized by one of the largest French retailers, Magic Bazar (http://www.magicbazar.fr/). It's definitely not a players-run event.

[JBlaze]

@Lord Seth

Just because Wizards has chosen to uphold the reserve list doesn't mean that they are not using their copyright. Not really sure what your point is but your post was long winded and much ado about nothing.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yes, but one card in 60 is hard to pick out. Like, borderline impossible.

I can't speak for all events, but the judges at SCG possibly during midround deck check and 100% for sure during pre-top8 inspection would notice if any of your cards were different. I've had them notice a very small defect in 4 of my 60 sleeves during like round 5 of an event that I hadn't noticed. I've also watched them several times perform the pre-top8 deck check. Let's just say it's very thorough. If you plan on taking fake cards to an SCG good luck.

[Stan]

If this fake cards crisis causes WotC to cut costs, downsize, and fire that useless waste of carbon Mark Rosewater, this will have been worth all the other fallout it caused.


So Maro acknowledged the issue today, even while just giving a run-of-the-mill answer:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/73225449856/your-thoughts-on-the-counterfeit-ring-in-china-give-us#notes

About the SCG article: What exactly does this article try to accomplish? Fear mongering?

Hilarious side note: If you don't want people to buy fakes, then DON'T POST PICTURES WITH THE UNCENSORED LINK IN THE ARTICLE!

It's like a guide for the masses to buy fakes. Good fucking job, dude! :rolleyes:

[Lord Seth]

@Lord Seth

Just because Wizards has chosen to uphold the reserve list doesn't mean that they are not using their copyright.
It kind of does. After all, if you're not making those cards, then you're not actually using their copyrights on those cards. Obviously they're still using their copyrights they have on the game in general and any new cards or reprints, but on those they aren't, unless you count their usage online (e.g. Magic Online, Gatherer images, etc.)


Not really sure what your point is but your post was long winded and much ado about nothing.
Enh, this is more fair. I was mostly just trying to ponder a bit about a possible argument, and I guess I kinda lost whatever point I had by the end.

[Dan Turner]

I am very much against counterfeits. If I need a proxy I have a color laser printer, I own most of the staples but I would love a large enough print run of legit catds to drop the price back to 05-06 levels even most duals were right in the sweet spot around 25 and only a few nitch cards were $100 range

Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.

[Honorik]

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.


I want to play Golf, but cannot afford it. I think I think the only way is to start counterfeit money. But this could cost me a lot resource and knowledge so it's just better to become criminal and go to the local bank post...

This is the only way I can get in to a Golf club, so I can enjoy the game, it's just a game after all. And I want more peoples to start plating Golf.

Btw, I want to have Rolls-Royce Corniche so I can go to the Golf club without looking stupid with my small and cheap car. It's just a car after all, everyone should have Rolls-Royce!

You can go to North Korea or China and try to build the Communism there! One way ticket!

[Einherjer]

More info

from the chinese guy who is sending me the free samples. They should arrive this week, will post a short review when I get my hands on them.

I talked to the man today and tried to get some more information from him. This is what I've got. Wanna see my last post with information regarding the alleged police raid and lost in spam? Click here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780944&viewfull=1#post780944).

New info:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2rfrpys.jpg
Did you guys just ignore him AGAIN? I'll requote him cause this is the kind of information this thread should be really about - not what user A thinks about Topic B and how more aswesome user B is than user C.

Greetings

[Lemnear]

This thread turns TheSource into the 4 Chan of M:TG :/

[lordofthepit]

This thread turns TheSource into the 4 Chan of M:TG :/

The corresponding threads on Salvation and Reddit are even worse.

[phazonmutant]

The corresponding threads on Salvation and Reddit are even worse.

I've been checking in this thread every now and then and this is the first time I've seen it actually discussing fake cards instead of hoarding or copyright theory or some such horse shit.


All I can say is, I'm afraid of a market crash, and I've never been afraid of the Magic bubble bursting before. Fortunately, I mostly have (sweet) foreign copies of expensive cards, so presumably there's not very much incentive to counterfeit them. Or at least I keep telling myself that...

[Dzra]

All I can say is, I'm afraid of a market crash, and I've never been afraid of the Magic bubble bursting before. Fortunately, I mostly have (sweet) foreign copies of expensive cards, so presumably there's not very much incentive to counterfeit them. Or at least I keep telling myself that...

I agree that this is troubling. More so for the perception of a market crash than the likelihood that the market will actually be noticeably flooded. Even several thousand more duals will not likely cause noticeable inflation; however, just the idea alone that people other than WotC have the power to do so may cause massive instability in the market.

I actually think that, rather than helping, posting and telling everyone how to spot fakes is likely to do nothing more than tell the counterfeiters how to correct their mistakes. All the white knights out there that are buying fakes for the purpose of telling everyone how to identify them will probably only result in better fakes. If you have bought counterfeit cards, whatever your motives, I'd urge you not to reveal too publicly how to identify them. For everyone else, just make sure that you are getting your cards from a credible source until WotC figures out how to fix this.

[warai]

Did you guys just ignore him AGAIN? I'll requote him cause this is the kind of information this thread should be really about - not what user A thinks about Topic B and how more aswesome user B is than user C.

Greetings

Lets just hope they won't ever be able to copy/reproduce the foil cards process.

This is getting serious!

[Barook]

Did you guys just ignore him AGAIN? I'll requote him cause this is the kind of information this thread should be really about - not what user A thinks about Topic B and how more aswesome user B is than user C.
Not too suprising. I'm following the 4chan threads to get an indication of what's actually going on when you have a bunch of people who don't give a shit. The requests for further money staples are already there, including all fetches/duals.

[janluis1]

Lets just hope they won't ever be able to copy/reproduce the foil cards process.

This is getting serious!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-Foil-Jace-the-Mind-Sculptor-/191035320011?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item2c7a97a6cb

allready done

[clavio]

I don't think it's possible to stop the counterfeiters. The best Chinese fake Ids are incredibly good, they pass UV tests and everything. Clearly these counterfeiters aren't the best, but some one out there will eventually be able to make exact replicas. A little hologram isn't going to stop anything. Getting the best fake id shop closed down required years of work and cooperation from diplomats and ambassadors. There's no way those officials will give a fuck about fake Magic cards. As soon as the best id shop was closed down, there was a new one to take it's place. I think right now eBay needs to do the responsible thing and stop these fakes from being sold. I don't know what the long term solution will be. We might be fucked. I don't see how anybody can possibly be pro counterfeits. Even the unsanctioned vintage tournaments I've participated in were held in card shops that have a lot to lose if these counterfeits don't get stopped.

[Wilkin]

I've been checking in this thread every now and then and this is the first time I've seen it actually discussing fake cards instead of hoarding or copyright theory or some such horse shit.


All I can say is, I'm afraid of a market crash, and I've never been afraid of the Magic bubble bursting before. Fortunately, I mostly have (sweet) foreign copies of expensive cards, so presumably there's not very much incentive to counterfeit them. Or at least I keep telling myself that...

I hear ya.

Very worried that if the fakes are of high enough quality that the game could crash. One thing I really don`t understand are people willing to buy these proxies to fill out their cubes or for testing etc. Not only are you helping the game possibly become extinct but can't you just either use a sharpie or use your own printer? Your own printer obviously isn't carbon copy but it suits the purpose.

I would like cards to be cheaper like anyone else, but not at the possible consquence of Magic the Gathering no longer existing. Or only becoming online.

[Voncaster]

I don't think it's possible to stop the counterfeiters. The best Chinese fake Ids are incredibly good, they pass UV tests and everything. Clearly these counterfeiters aren't the best, but some one out there will eventually be able to make exact replicas. A little hologram isn't going to stop anything. Getting the best fake id shop closed down required years of work and cooperation from diplomats and ambassadors. There's no way those officials will give a fuck about fake Magic cards. As soon as the best id shop was closed down, there was a new one to take it's place. I think right now eBay needs to do the responsible thing and stop these fakes from being sold. I don't know what the long term solution will be. We might be fucked. I don't see how anybody can possibly be pro counterfeits. Even the unsanctioned vintage tournaments I've participated in were held in card shops that have a lot to lose if these counterfeits don't get stopped.

Ebay doesn't care if sellers are selling fakes. Sellers are responsible for selling legal goods. If you have a problem with a seller contact the seller. And in an extreme case, contact the authorities. As long as eBay is taking money off the top of transactions, they could care less if its legal or counterfeit goods. EBay essentially washes their hands of legal obligations, unless their are obligated to take a side from a legal perspective. For $500-5 MTG listings, I think they have much bigger fish to fry.

It would take WotC, a huge response from the eBay community, or US authorities to shut down counterfeit MTG listings on eBay. I don't see it happening in the short term.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The corresponding threads on Salvation and Reddit are even worse.

Actually Reddit turned a corner after that SCG article. Now comments that are pro-counterfeit are quickly downvoted. Salvation is banning or suspending people who ask for information on ordering the cards or admit to ordering the cards. This thread is currently the low water mark on the internet for discussing these fakes.

[clavio]

Actually Reddit turned a corner after that SCG article. Now comments that are pro-counterfeit are quickly downvoted. Salvation is banning or suspending people who ask for information on ordering the cards or admit to ordering the cards. This thread is currently the low water mark on the internet for discussing these fakes.

I'm sure if we had downvotes on the source you would see a similar pattern.

[MGB]

Counterfeiting is illegal everywhere that matters. It's illegal in China as well, occasionally there are raids to break up counterfeiting rings. It's illegal by every standard that could possibly matter for the sake of this discussion, yes including the law in your town. By knowingly ordering fake cards you would be breaking US laws (or wherever you live).

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.


It doesn't take a genius to figure out that, given an acceptable level of quality in the counterfeit, that it mostly benefits the consumer.

It's like the pharmaceutical industry. There are name brand medicines that Big Pharma companies charge exorbitant amounts for. Then there are small pill manufacturers that simply reproduce their process at lower cost and sell these knock-off pills for far less money. Most of these "counterfeit" pills are of similar quality and save consumers millions of dollars on a product that is inordinately priced by the company that originally produced it.

Most counterfeit laws are in place only to protect the vast profits of the originator of a product. Do you give props to the originator for coming up with the idea? Sure, but at a certain point, demand will need to be placated by facsimiles unless the originator lowers his prices and/or increases the supply.



What are you even doing? I mean you are going so far around your ass with this logic I don't even see where you are coming from. No one here is really making money off MTG we don't want this to get out of hand because it will hurt the people who host events and then there will be less events. I'm sorry you don't like paying for cards, I don't like paying for anything, but people don't hold events and host FNMs out of the goodness of their hearts. Read this article it will lay out the general reasons people disagree with counterfeiting. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27693_Counterfeit-Cards.html

The guy who wrote that article is simply a Magic speculator who makes all of or part of his living buying and selling Magic cards. I.e. not someone playing the game for the enjoyment of the game.

Again, the only way that players themselves should be concerned about counterfeiting is with regard to its ability to affect the bottom line of Wizards, the producer of the cards, and the ability to affect the bottom line of tournament organizers like Starcitygames.

And the link between event organization and increased supply of fake cards isn't completely proven either. Will Wizards withdraw funding from Legacy events if their product is widely copied? Maybe. They haven't exactly been ambassadors of the format to being with. What does Legacy get now, a Grand Prix a year?

[theillest]

Ebay doesn't care if sellers are selling fakes. Sellers are responsible for selling legal goods. If you have a problem with a seller contact the seller. And in an extreme case, contact the authorities. As long as eBay is taking money off the top of transactions, they could care less if its legal or counterfeit goods. EBay essentially washes their hands of legal obligations, unless their are obligated to take a side from a legal perspective. For $500-5 MTG listings, I think they have much bigger fish to fry.

It would take WotC, a huge response from the eBay community, or US authorities to shut down counterfeit MTG listings on eBay. I don't see it happening in the short term.

EBay has copyright holders and general users police the listings. Copyright holders have special privileges and can end listings with the click of a button. They also have some automatic features which prevent certain keywords in titles. WotC/Hasbro can grab the reigns and KO the listings as they see fit. Or one can go on a crusade and report the listings as counterfeit.

[twndomn]

I want to play Golf, but cannot afford it. I think I think the only way is to start counterfeit money. But this could cost me a lot resource and knowledge so it's just better to become criminal and go to the local bank post...

This is the only way I can get in to a Golf club, so I can enjoy the game, it's just a game after all. And I want more peoples to start plating Golf.

Btw, I want to have Rolls-Royce Corniche so I can go to the Golf club without looking stupid with my small and cheap car. It's just a car after all, everyone should have Rolls-Royce!

You can go to North Korea or China and try to build the Communism there! One way ticket!

You are a classic example of slippery slope, do you live your life hysterically by stretching every single conversation?

I have typed this sentences like 3x already: People around the world counterfeit Currency and Magic card ALL THE TIME and it's Not on the news. For you to harp about your morale superiority on a Magic forum doesn't change a thing. You can do a kickstarter or submit articles to TIMES or whatever, people still do it anyway. That's called economics.

Therefore, the attention is to analyze the impact of Legacy tournament events and attendance. My personal belief is that the number of tournaments will remain about the same, but the attendance will go up, due to influx of supply.

[Bardu]

Personally, I think this is one of the most interesting and compelling topics related to MtG in the last ten years, and even it's entire history.

Do I support counterfeit cards? Absolutely not. Certainly appropriate authorities must do what they can to extinguish the fire ASAP. But that said, this is a forum, and it should promote free discussion. This is in important topic to the game and the community. As such I feel strongly that calling this thread a low water mark is completely inappropriate.

I personally feel that the SCG article was not pro-counterfeit and, to me, felt like propaganda from Wizards.

I do think that Wizards has some accountability for their economic model. They sell cardboard. They do wonderful things with it, but they do make alot of money. Magic is not a game like others. Put simply, you must have thousands of dollars invested in the game to be able to truly compete in any given format and must be ready to continually invest those kinds of sums.

Magic is a business. It exists to make money. And it has been plain to me that Magic has gotten greedy. They are not interested in making a great game, but in profit margins. I quit the game some time ago for these reasons. I still find Magic interesting, but I no longer am willing to pay for their product.

I think that counterfeit cards will be a continuing problem for Magic. Obviously, it will need to be addressed aggressively and quickly. And I really think Wizards will need to be transparent about this issue, rather than pretending it doesn't exist.

[Raystar]

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that, given an acceptable level of quality in the counterfeit, that it mostly benefits the consumer.

It's like the pharmaceutical industry. There are name brand medicines that Big Pharma companies charge exorbitant amounts for. Then there are small pill manufacturers that simply reproduce their process at lower cost and sell these knock-off pills for far less money. Most of these "counterfeit" pills are of similar quality and save consumers millions of dollars on a product that is inordinately priced by the company that originally produced it.

Most counterfeit laws are in place only to protect the vast profits of the originator of a product. Do you give props to the originator for coming up with the idea? Sure, but at a certain point, demand will need to be placated by facsimiles unless the originator lowers his prices and/or increases the supply.

The guy who wrote that article is simply a Magic speculator who makes all of or part of his living buying and selling Magic cards. I.e. not someone playing the game for the enjoyment of the game.

Again, the only way that players themselves should be concerned about counterfeiting is with regard to its ability to affect the bottom line of Wizards, the producer of the cards, and the ability to affect the bottom line of tournament organizers like Starcitygames.

And the link between event organization and increased supply of fake cards isn't completely proven either. Will Wizards withdraw funding from Legacy events if their product is widely copied? Maybe. They haven't exactly been ambassadors of the format to being with. What does Legacy get now, a Grand Prix a year?

I hope you can see the difference between medicines and a trading card game.

Somebody before me already addressed this: you can play with proxies in not sanctioned events right now if you want!

If you believe that a proxy-based tournament scene would prosper in the hands of players why don't you start a "proxy league"? I'll tell you why: because you want to play sanctioned events. Guess what, organizers are the hands of WotC when they organize sanctioned tournaments, it is their rules, their game, their tournament.

If you want to play under your rules you are free to do it, but don't ask WotC to sanction an event outside of their rules.

Please, before you address me as a "speculator/hoarder", I'm not. I own a playset of all the cards I use to play Legacy at LGSs around my area and the occasional big event. For the record, I too believe that the RL is a total idiocy and should be abolished.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in the arguments that support the production and distribution of counterfeited cards and it is a shame that those being hypocritical can't see the damage that will be done to the game if fake Magic cards start to be prevalent.

[lordofthepit]

Comparing these fakes to a legitimate product for use in sanctioned events is just ridiculous.

This isn't comparable to using a generic pharmaceutical or pirating music. This is counterfeiting casino chips from Bellagio and heading down to the Texas Hold 'Em table. After all, it's just a game, why should you be excluded?

[phonics]

The guys arguing about the ethics of this are missing the point entirely. This has nothing to do with morality or what is right and wrong. Excessive counterfeiting is the endgame for the current way Wizards handles the rising price of staples, simple as that. You can condemn or justify it as much as you want but that is completely moot. WOTC controls the production of legitimate product and therefore is the only one that has the ability to influence and change this. If you or anyone thinks that any kind of moral argument against counterfeiting will prevent it from happening you are sorely mistaken. Such efforts should be spent on actual methods of managing supply of product to ensure that such an endgame doesn't occur.

Now you may continue your pointless argument.

[Mewens]

I think the greatest part of these threads is the showcase of bad analogies. Even setting aside appropriateness (guize, counterfeits are just like murder! and life-saving medicine, too!), every single one of the analogies I've seen anywhere on the subject is both a) part of a silly argument or b) grossly incorrect. (Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like rooks in chess; you're thinking of a proxy. Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like poker chips; the closest equivalent in Magic is a tourney entry fee.)

Here's what it comes down to: Stop making analogies. At this point, I'm already resigned to people spending a million billion dollars on counterfeits and pretending that it's somehow the same as making proxies for personal use; I'm already resigned to the fact that people have 0 respect for intellectual property. I'm not resigned to the vapid, mindless analogies, though.

Srsly. Stop making analogies. It'd be like if a lion tried to give speeches to robot tuna, y'knowhatimean?

[Raystar]

I think the greatest part of these threads is the showcase of bad analogies. Even setting aside appropriateness (guize, counterfeits are just like murder! and life-saving medicine, too!), every single one of the analogies I've seen anywhere on the subject is both a) part of a silly argument or b) grossly incorrect. (Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like rooks in chess; you're thinking of a proxy. Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like poker chips; the closest equivalent in Magic is a tourney entry fee.)

Here's what it comes down to: Stop making analogies. At this point, I'm already resigned to people spending a million billion dollars on counterfeits and pretending that it's somehow the same as making proxies for personal use; I'm already resigned to the fact that people have 0 respect for intellectual property. I'm not resigned to the vapid, mindless analogies, though.

Srsly. Stop making analogies. It'd be like if a lion tried to give speeches to robot tuna, y'knowhatimean?

Best post of the thread :)

[Technics]

Comparing these fakes to a legitimate product for use in sanctioned events is just ridiculous.

This isn't comparable to using a generic pharmaceutical or pirating music. This is counterfeiting casino chips from Bellagio and heading down to the Texas Hold 'Em table. After all, it's just a game, why should you be excluded?

Except many people are saying using them in cube or FOR PROXIES is just as bad. It's not. If I want to use my knock off pills to cure myself, i see no problem with that. If I want to use my knock off pills in the Public funded hospitel (sanctioned events) then that is absolutely an issue.

Everyone keeps saying sharpie your own, thats ok, but buying these is not. I call shenanigans. What if my sharpie proxies are really good. Is it ok for me to sell them to my friends? What if i use a printer... There is absolutely no clear line between sharpie proxies, and what these chinese companies are doing. If you are anti proxies for casual use, you have to be anti-every type of proxy.

Now you can pick what side you want to sit on. That is your own opinion, but please stop having this deluded sense that sharpie proxies are ok, but these are not. They are both just as harmful (assuming you are not using them to scam or pass them off as real).

Is everyone here now anti-Cocatrice and MWS? These are "life like proxies". The REAL issue is the passing of these proxies off as real card, not their existence. Now you can debate that if making 100% identical proxies your only goal could be passing them off as real, and that is another issue entirely. But they actual existence is not the issue. It's intent. Which btw is the LEGAL definition of copyright/fair use. I could write thousand word essays on this (and have) but it boils down to what is the intent. I would agree the sellers intent is to make money selling these to people who intend to pass them off as real, but persecuting the people who are saying they want to use them for cube/info is basically calling them a liar. You are saying what they are doing is wrong, only on the basis you assume they are going to pass them off as real.

That said. I am pro proxies for cube/playtesting, and absolutely against using them in any form of sanctioned play.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The guy who wrote that article is simply a Magic speculator who makes all of or part of his living buying and selling Magic cards. I.e. not someone playing the game for the enjoyment of the game.

Again, the only way that players themselves should be concerned about counterfeiting is with regard to its ability to affect the bottom line of Wizards, the producer of the cards, and the ability to affect the bottom line of tournament organizers like Starcitygames.

And the link between event organization and increased supply of fake cards isn't completely proven either. Will Wizards withdraw funding from Legacy events if their product is widely copied? Maybe. They haven't exactly been ambassadors of the format to being with. What does Legacy get now, a Grand Prix a year?

Well I played the game for enjoyment and I don't stand to profit off the game if time and effort are factored into the equation (yes my cards are worth more than I paid for them but not enough to justify the "profit margin" I will get after I sell them and pay Ebay its 12% cut). Still I was saying pretty much exactly what he was saying before he said it.

The bottom line of game stores which host events and the number and quality of events can't be separated. Hurting game stores which host events means less events which hurts players, period.


Except many people are saying using them in cube or FOR PROXIES is just as bad. It's not. If I want to use my knock off pills to cure myself, i see no problem with that. If I want to use my knock off pills in the Public funded hospitel (sanctioned events) then that is absolutely an issue.

Everyone keeps saying sharpie your own, thats ok, but buying these is not. I call shenanigans. What if my sharpie proxies are really good. Is it ok for me to sell them to my friends? What if i use a printer... There is absolutely no clear line between sharpie proxies, and what these chinese companies are doing. If you are anti proxies for casual use, you have to be anti-every type of proxy.

Now you can pick what side you want to sit on. That is your own opinion, but please stop having this deluded sense that sharpie proxies are ok, but these are not. They are both just as harmful (assuming you are not using them to scam or pass them off as real).

Is everyone here now anti-Cocatrice and MWS? These are "life like proxies". The REAL issue is the passing of these proxies off as real card, not their existence. Now you can debate that if making 100% identical proxies your only goal could be passing them off as real, and that is another issue entirely. But they actual existence is not the issue. It's intent. Which btw is the LEGAL definition of copyright/fair use. I could write thousand word essays on this (and have) but it boils down to what is the intent. I would agree the sellers intent is to make money selling these to people who intend to pass them off as real, but persecuting the people who are saying they want to use them for cube/info is basically calling them a liar. You are saying what they are doing is wrong, only on the basis you assume they are going to pass them off as real.

That said. I am pro proxies for cube/playtesting, and absolutely against using them in any form of sanctioned play.

It's actually worse IMO. I don't agree with playing proxies at events and would not think twice about calling someone out if I thought they had fake cards. I also think people who knowingly play proxies at sanctioned events should face a DCI suspension. Still at the very least those people are contributing to prize support and tournament attendance. The reason buying counterfeits is such a big deal is that it damages the community and financially supports those who only exist to make profits and give zero fucks whether or not their actions lead to the end of Magic and/or drive game stores which support the game out of business.

The entire point isn't that you are using proxies. You are supporting counterfeiters. The more you support them the more they are going to work on making Magic cards that look as real as possible which is terrible for the game. If they are forced to only sell cards to people who want to rip people off passing these fake cards as real or if every selfish asshole with a cube wants them the company that makes them still gets the same cut of the profits. If they can only sell one batch every so often to criminals who want to sell them as real it's not worth it for them to innovate and push for more realistic cards. If they sell 50 batches a year because people don't care it's going to crash the market which ruins the game. Every batch they make they are going to get better. I wouldn't really give 2 shits if you were printing proxies off at your house and they were not entering circulation.

Saying every proxy is created equal is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard for the reasons I just laid out. If you want to buy these proxies just admit to yourself you are a selfish asshole and know you are doing the wrong thing and do it anyways. Stop trying to justify it though like it is the right thing to do or like it doesn't have bigger consequences then just playing a game on Cockatrice or writing Black Lotus on a basic land in Sharpie.

[DLifshitz]

EBay has copyright holders and general users police the listings. Copyright holders have special privileges and can end listings with the click of a button. They also have some automatic features which prevent certain keywords in titles. WotC/Hasbro can grab the reigns and KO the listings as they see fit. Or one can go on a crusade and report the listings as counterfeit.

It's not like someone selling counterfeit cards is going to advertise this fact or make a listing for over 9000 copies of JTMS. He or she is probably going to use a stock picture or a photo of a genuine card, and mix in some listings for genuine cards as well, if only to appear to be a completely legit seller.

BTW, has anyone actually received their 'samples' from those HK crooks, and would perhaps be willing to take high-quality scans and list any ways to spot fake cards? Does a bold copyright line really mean it's a fake?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think the greatest part of these threads is the showcase of bad analogies... Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like rooks in chess; you're thinking of a proxy, blah, blah, blah.
Pro tip: learn to read.
I wrote that if I lose a rook in chess, I may throw away the set and buy new for 2 dollars. But if I once again lose Savannah, I'm 60 USD down. And then I worte I won't be playing a game whose pieces cost 60 USD each. Right there, right here:

Lol. This forum is plagued by "I love that the high prices kick the scrubs out of my lsd..." and similar stuff.
It's a game. I played it in a pub and lost a Savannah. If I'd lost a rook in chess, I'd either thrown the set away and buy a new one or maybe I'd carve the missing rook of a stick, or whatever. Losing the Sav (yeah, tell me how I'm stupid, I love when ppl act like they ate all the wisdom in world and shit never happened to them, cause they're grandmaster Spot Object on Ground) cost me USD 60 or so, I can't tell the exact price and it doesn't even matter that much. This goes to all those "I got all, don't need to buy anything" and all those "you should have boguht them years ago", etc.; morale of the story is : (a) you may need new stuff even if you "have everything" and then it costs money, and (b) this game is no more meant to be played relaxed and in ease. The day I lost the Sav I thrown the EDH cards to binder, coz what's the point of dicking around the pub with a deck worthy 3000 USD and be constantly afraid that you lose/spill soda on something. Would you play marbles with golden marbles? Bah...
I miss the days when we were playing on the street under the lamp on a desk we've found on school garden and we didn't even counted our sixty when we were leaving, because even though they were the Good_Stuff.dec and the best in it's time (Necroknights, Zoo, Erhnam-and-Burn-'em, Erhnamgeddon, UW Control and such), because the most expensive cards were the Forces for 60 crowns and Erhnam Djinns for 90. And this was when one dollar was for 45 crowns.

I won't be playing children's pictorial game when the pictures cost two thousand crowns.



Before "your support of fakes make small kitties die of hunger": no, I don't support fakes, I'm (partially) selling my Magical cards instead. Is it overreaction? Idk. The cards have two values for me, first as a game pieces and second is monetary, just like dontbiteithomes wrote:

My cards have two different kinds of value, a dollar value and value as a piece in a game. If one or the other was going down, I would probably keep. I mean if I thought the Legacy game was still going to be healthy moving forward but the value of my cards would go down I wouldn't sell. If I thought Legacy was going to taper off but the market wasn't going to come to a head at some point in the next few years I'd also keep as I'm quite fond of my cards. The way I see it though within the next 2-3 years there is going to be an influx of fakes and that is going to cause the quick demise of Legacy as a real format and make it hard as shit to sell cards (and MTG players overall seems overjoyed by this for some reason?). Why the fuck would I want to be left holding that bag? Also I've been here since before Legacy was a format back when we used to sling Drains and Workshops. Was I ever really here, lol who are you?


Btw, I anticipated this counterfeit affair in one my very first posts quite some time ago:

I was always a big no-sayer when it comes to reprints, but the trend of last three or so years forced me to change my mind. I always thought that if someone can't afford to play MtG, so be it, and he should either quit or find a better job. But once the prices went ridiculously high and then straight through the roof, I changed my mind.

...

Because, and listen carefully: I won't continue with this magical cards thing. Not today, not tomorrow, not by the end of the year, but there will come a time when I'll stop to send letters, as your stamps are too expensive, just because some random dude sitting on his Mauritiuses means much more for you than I do. I'm fine with it, just that it is completely unnecessary. But then again, if your Sales Dpt. realized that it's better for you to do it like you do it, so be it.

One last note: If WotC doesn't do anything about the cards' prices, than I expect a flood of HQ forgeries in the years to come. Heck, maybe they already started to circulate, and we just din't realized that. That's the other reason why I'm more and more inclined to cash out. Cause I won't waste my money on scrap paper.

/rant
Sadly, it happened sooner then expected... I hope WotC will do something about it. I think that the real supporter of RL is Hasbro and WotC just can't do anything, but maybe I'm wrong. No matter what, I also hope that this affair will wake up the sleeping beauties of either companies and they'll do something about it before it's too late.

[Barook]

It's not like someone selling counterfeit cards is going to advertise this fact or make a listing for over 9000 copies of JTMS. He or she is probably going to use a stock picture or a photo of a genuine card, and mix in some listings for genuine cards as well, if only to appear to be a completely legit seller.

BTW, has anyone actually received their 'samples' from those HK crooks, and would perhaps be willing to take high-quality scans and list any ways to spot fake cards? Does a bold copyright line really mean it's a fake?
The new batch should be finished in about 3 days. We'll have to wait and see how the new generation turns out, considering the Chinese are working on said issues.

Most likely, they still aren't going to pass the bend test.

Edit: Or the 19th, according to this video. He also claims that most of the cards go to Spain and Brazil. Take it as you want:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ql-q0INFZI#t=19

Pointing out how to spot fakes only make them better the next time.

Edit2: Here's the current 80 card list he's talking about:

http://imgur.com/5fooXr4

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm really struggling to see how this is a bad thing for the game.

[HammafistRoob]

The bend test is such a farce, go ahead and take some shit Theros common and attempt a bend test.

[twndomn]

The bottom line of game stores which host events and the number and quality of events can't be separated. Hurting game stores which host events means less events which hurts players, period.
The reason buying counterfeits is such a big deal is that it damages the community and financially supports those who only exist to make profits and give zero fucks whether or not their actions lead to the end of Magic and/or drive game stores which support the game out of business.


Still waiting for your evidence. Your claim of "hurting game stores" or damages community has no evidence. Your argument has no merit.

Producing indistinguishable counterfeit cards is the same as increasing the supply of cards that has high unit price. This would mean increasing attendance of Legacy tournament since more players would be able to access cards and the game stores would make more profit because the increase in attendance per competition.

Are you saying more players play in Legacy tournament furthermore higher attendance fees for game store owners is actually damaging the community? How exactly? You are making empty claims.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.

Do they only agree to that because they've been told to? I mean basically everyone pirates music for instance. No one has a problem with saving an image they find online to their harddrive.

The whole concept of intellectual property is pretty morally murky actually.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The bend test is such a farce, go ahead and take some shit Theros common and attempt a bend test.

Okay.

It works.

What am I supposed to be missing?

[Arsenal]

Still waiting for your evidence. Your claim of "hurting game stores" or damages community has no evidence. Your argument has no merit.

Producing indistinguishable counterfeit cards is the same as increasing the supply of cards that has high unit price. This would mean increasing attendance of Legacy tournament since more players would be able to access cards and the game stores would make more profit because the increase in attendance per competition.

Are you saying more players play in Legacy tournament furthermore higher attendance fees for game store owners is actually damaging the community? How exactly? You are making empty claims.

Stores would no longer sell any Magic cards. No boosters (outside of Draft), and certainly no singles. Their sole Magic revenue stream would be from tourney attendance money, and a large portion of that is fed back into the prize pool. I don't understand how the store would make more profit if they no longer are able to sell Magic cards.

[Mewens]

Woah there, BDP.

I don't recall pointing you out specifically. I mean, if the shoe fits ... (Yeah, yeah, I know that's a metaphor, which is just an intellectual slut's analogy. My apologies, I'm a hypocrite in addition to my other charming qualities.)

Second, while I actually wasn't thinking of you, you're actually doing exactly what I accused people of doing. You're confusing the mechanics of a game piece with the counterfeit publishing of that piece. Your analogy sucks for two reasons: 1. It's part of an argument made in the context of a thread about counterfeiting, but leaves the actual conclusion unsaid (Are you entertaining the idea of counterfeits used as proxies? Or devaluing Magic cards through mass counterfeiting? Or something else entirely, but you were unaware that such nuance would be lost in a thread about counterfeiting?); and 2. I can't come up with a conclusion from your argument that isn't undermined by your analogy. I'll grant you, that might be a failure of my imagination. Still, I shouldn't have to imagine what you're saying, right? (To be fair, you're nowhere near the most egregious offender here.)

I'm actually sympathetic to your stated point, that the game costs so much damn money that it starts to become nerve-wracking / not worth the time to go out and play it. I'm just at a loss as to why you brought that up in a thread specifically about counterfeits.

And, yeah, I was poking the bear a little bit. (Sorry, can't help myself, apparently.) But god damn, this thread's full of a lot of self-importance and hot air.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think I would actually enjoy Magic tournaments a lot more if Magic decks didn't represent huge monetary investments and thus 1) Create paranoia/stress about preventing theft that also stops me from bringing extra decks, a Cube, my EDH decks to Legacy tournaments, etc., and 2) Inevitable stress and tragedy after the fact as someone will inevitably get their shit stolen (sometimes being attacked or having their car broken into.)

Of course the downside to that would be the actual loss of money as the value of collections declined.

But, Magic cards are detrimentally expensive is the ultimate point here.

[theillest]

It's not like someone selling counterfeit cards is going to advertise this fact or make a listing for over 9000 copies of JTMS. He or she is probably going to use a stock picture or a photo of a genuine card, and mix in some listings for genuine cards as well, if only to appear to be a completely legit seller.

BTW, has anyone actually received their 'samples' from those HK crooks, and would perhaps be willing to take high-quality scans and list any ways to spot fake cards? Does a bold copyright line really mean it's a fake?

That's true, some counterfits are not listed as such. There are some which are touted as proxies. Those are the ones that may be policed. If you're mailed fake product and thought you were buying real cards, there are other ways deal with the seller.

A potential problem with pointing out flaws in fakes is it creates a guide for counterfit improvement. There are review videos coming out. No, there have been variances in printing.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Still waiting for your evidence. Your claim of "hurting game stores" or damages community has no evidence. Your argument has no merit.

Producing indistinguishable counterfeit cards is the same as increasing the supply of cards that has high unit price. This would mean increasing attendance of Legacy tournament since more players would be able to access cards and the game stores would make more profit because the increase in attendance per competition.

Are you saying more players play in Legacy tournament furthermore higher attendance fees for game store owners is actually damaging the community? How exactly? You are making empty claims.

What exactly do you need evidence of.

Counterfeits hurt stores. I mean this seems like common sense. How does undercutting legitimate business with fake product not hurt the stores if you have another opinion?

If stores are making less money there will be less events. That's just a fact, events exist to draw people to the stores to buy and sell product. If events become less profitable there will be less events, I don't see how that could be debated. People keep saying the community could step in and host their own events but this is already the case and it's not happening on any real scale. Even if the community could offer up tournaments on par with SCG or BOM, or other retailers (which I find HIGHLY unlikely for many reasons) this wouldn't be a pro-counterfeiting argument as this could just as easily be accomplished without counterfeits.

Buying these cards financially supports counterfeiters and counterfeiters don't give two shits about what happens to Magic. That's just a fact again, that is not up for debate.

Hurting the stores and hurting the community are the same thing. When's the last time you played a tournament that wasn't hosted by a store that was worth talking about (an 8 man in your friend's basement doesn't count)? It's a very rare thing.

[metelhead]

I heard there is a 'Light Test', where using a Black light on a authentic MTG card will make it the outer border glow- is that true? I also heard that the counterfeits out of N. Carolina (via China) did not pass this test too...

[Dzra]

BTW, has anyone actually received their 'samples' from those HK crooks, and would perhaps be willing to take high-quality scans and list any ways to spot fake cards? Does a bold copyright line really mean it's a fake?


I heard there is a 'Light Test', where using a Black light on a authentic MTG card will make it the outer border glow- is that true? I also heard that the counterfeits out of N. Carolina (via China) did not pass this test too...


Pointing out how to spot fakes only make them better the next time.

I really wish that people would realize this.


Magic is a business. It exists to make money. And it has been plain to me that Magic has gotten greedy. They are not interested in making a great game, but in profit margins.

Of course WotC exists to make money, why is that a problem? If Wizards makes a better product, they will make more profit margins. Would I rather them not care about their profits and not care about their product?

While high card prices on the secondary market do not directly help WotC, they do help local game stores, which in turn feed WotC. Yes, if prices are too high, then attendance will drop; however, destabilizing the secondary market entirely will break their whole business model.


Except many people are saying using them in cube or FOR PROXIES is just as bad. It's not. If I want to use my knock off pills to cure myself, i see no problem with that. If I want to use my knock off pills in the Public funded hospitel (sanctioned events) then that is absolutely an issue.

Printing or making your own proxies, for your personal use, in non-sanctioned events is very different than printing and widely distributing proxies that are good enough to destabilize the entire MTG market. It doesn't matter if most people are good guys and perhaps only one in ten of these proxies actually makes it to tournament play or ends up getting sold as real. The possibility that moving forward, any card you buy or sell could be a forgery is a completely different scenario than you and your friends' home-made proxy cube. By buying these proxies, you are supporting this scenario.


Is everyone here now anti-Cocatrice and MWS? These are "life like proxies". The REAL issue is the passing of these proxies off as real card, not their existence. Now you can debate that if making 100% identical proxies your only goal could be passing them off as real, and that is another issue entirely. But they actual existence is not the issue. It's intent.

The REAL issue is that it doesn't matter what percentage of people decide to scam and what percentage are good guys. Let's say only one in one hundred cards on the market are actually counterfeits, is that going to help the one guy that ends up buying it? Is that going to help negate the fear that you might be that one? If people are too afraid to buy cards off the secondary market then we have a problem. If you can't understand how crucial the secondary market is to MTG then I can't help you understand why this is bad.

[Barook]

Stores would no longer sell any Magic cards. No boosters (outside of Draft), and certainly no singles. Their sole Magic revenue stream would be from tourney attendance money, and a large portion of that is fed back into the prize pool. I don't understand how the store would make more profit if they no longer are able to sell Magic cards.
Now you're vastly exaggerating. Profit comes mainly from recent packs and it's probably going to take a while until they can perfectly replicate the new stuff coming from M15. There's also the argument that it actually helps stores to sell more singles because you can check them out in person before actually purchasing them.

There's exactly as much evidence for "the sky is falling" as for "it's going to be fine" - zero. The issue isn't as black and white as some people try to paint it (aside from the moral standpoint) - but there's a huge gray area we have absolutely no data about.

@metelhead: According to one of the pictures, the Alibaba fakes are supposed to pass UV test, but we have to see prove of that first.

[twndomn]

Stores would no longer sell any Magic cards. No boosters (outside of Draft), and certainly no singles. Their sole Magic revenue stream would be from tourney attendance money, and a large portion of that is fed back into the prize pool. I don't understand how the store would make more profit if they no longer are able to sell Magic cards.

See, this is where your theory falls apart. I predict store would still sell Singles and they certainly will still sell Magic cards.

If I were the store owners, I would still have a buy list. I would still host Draft and have judges. Judges and I would monitor the players at all times, no swapping and/or any shady behaviors allowed. Only the singles opened from that draft would be allowed to be sold back to the store immediately after the draft has ended.

Therefore, if I as a player want to buy Magic cards from Internet, an online seller that has physical store in United States following above guideline is much more reputable than a seller without.

As simple as that, your doomsday scenario is avoided. I don't understand how you reach your hysterical conclusion.

[Arsenal]

If the fake is indistinguishable from the real thing (I understand it currently is not, but I believe it's only a matter of time until the forgery can't be distinguished from the genuine article), the brick and mortar store will not be able to move any singles as consumers can obtain the same thing for a fraction of the price from alibaba. Outside of Limited, why are consumers going to buy $4 boosters if they can just buy the chase rare for $1 from alibaba?

Lol at stores still being able to sell singles. Sure, if alibaba is offering Tarmogoyf for $5, what's the store going to do? They either offer their Tarmogoyf also for $5 and lose out on a ton of profit (assuming they had to spend more than $5 to acquire said Tarmogoyf) or they simply stop selling singles altogether as alibaba is able to create singles out of thin air whereas the stores need to spend money to acquire their Tarmogoyf's.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I heard there is a 'Light Test', where using a Black light on a authentic MTG card will make it the outer border glow- is that true? I also heard that the counterfeits out of N. Carolina (via China) did not pass this test too...

The whole card glows under black light, fake cards typically do not. From what I understand it's a special coating that protects the ink on the card from fading over time and protects it somewhat from damage. If you put a small drop of water on a real magic card it will typically not damage the card but most fakes will quickly absorb it leaving the card warped in that spot because they do not have this protective coating.

[danyul]

Does this blacklight test work on all printings of MTG cards? I kinda wanna take a blacklight to my entire collection after reading this thread. More specifically, does this work on duals? I don't really care about modern-border stuff.

Amazon UV flashlights (http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Home-Improvement-Black-Light-Flashlights/zgbs/hi/6476726011) aren't even that expensive.

[sdematt]

Does this blacklight test work on all printings of MTG cards? I kinda wanna take a blacklight to my entire collection after reading this thread. More specifically, does this work on duals? I don't really care about modern-border stuff.

Amazon UV flashlights (http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Home-Improvement-Black-Light-Flashlights/zgbs/hi/6476726011) aren't even that expensive.

All real cards, except Alternate 4th, do glow under a black light. The fakes do not glow.

-Matt

[metelhead]

The whole card glows under black light, fake cards typically do not. From what I understand it's a special coating that protects the ink on the card from fading over time and protects it somewhat from damage. If you put a small drop of water on a real magic card it will typically not damage the card but most fakes will quickly absorb it leaving the card warped in that spot because they do not have this protective coating.

Thanks for the confirmation.....Here's some Irony- I just purchased a keychain Blacklight from Amazon....which is coming from China just so I can detect chinese counterfeits...:cry:

[danyul]

Thanks Matt. That's good to know. Looks like I'll be bringing a UV light along with my trade binder from now on.

@metelhead - Irony at its finest. Either that or the Chinese have next-next leveled all of us in order to boost their UV light sales.

[Russian Alara]

All real cards, except Alternate 4th, do glow under a black light. The fakes do not glow.

-Matt

Thanks Matt, will update my user-base on this since they are all checking their cards...

@Darnyul if they can copy our Russian fighter jets , they can definitely copy and outsmart the whole world.

[Lord Seth]

Sadly, it happened sooner then expected... I hope WotC will do something about it. I think that the real supporter of RL is Hasbro and WotC just can't do anything, but maybe I'm wrong.
According to Aaron, "Hasbro was not a factor in anything." (this was said in regards to the Reserved List decision) Source here (http://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/10660373048).

It is also noticeable that the time Hasbro brought them out was also the time when they stopped adding cards from new sets to the list...

[JBlaze]

I actually think that, rather than helping, posting and telling everyone how to spot fakes is likely to do nothing more than tell the counterfeiters how to correct their mistakes. All the white knights out there that are buying fakes for the purpose of telling everyone how to identify them will probably only result in better fakes. If you have bought counterfeit cards, whatever your motives, I'd urge you not to reveal too publicly how to identify them. For everyone else, just make sure that you are getting your cards from a credible source until WotC figures out how to fix this.

Sticking out collective heads in the sand is not going to make anything better. Pretty sure the counterfeiters will be able to figure it on their own. We are much better off educating people on how to spot them

[danyul]

Thanks Matt, will update my user-base on this since they are all checking their cards...

@Darnyul if they can copy our Russian fighter jets , they can definitely copy and outsmart the whole world.

True, but I would imagine that making a copy of a Russian fighter jet is pretty damn expensive and difficult. Whereas buying a flashlight on Amazon only costs me 7 bucks and a few clicks. I might as well take whatever precautions my lazy ass can afford to take.

I'm being facetious, but you get what I'm saying.

[sdematt]

I mean, it's only a stop gap measure. Eventually, if not cost prohibitive, they'll pass the UV test.

For now, it's better than nothing. I can afford a flashlight for $7 to help me not get bum-holed for X cards.


-Matt

[Russian Alara]

I mean, it's only a stop gap measure. Eventually, if not cost prohibitive, they'll pass the UV test.

For now, it's better than nothing. I can afford a flashlight for $7 to help me not get bum-holed for X cards.


-Matt

and by then there will be other ways to counter them ( thinking some protection that is similar to new $100 dollar protection) The most important is not to panic but be wary.

-Onar

@Danyul yes I do and actually support you 100%

[Barook]

Does this blacklight test work on all printings of MTG cards? I kinda wanna take a blacklight to my entire collection after reading this thread. More specifically, does this work on duals? I don't really care about modern-border stuff.

Amazon UV flashlights (http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Home-Improvement-Black-Light-Flashlights/zgbs/hi/6476726011) aren't even that expensive.
It should look kinda like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfv0itanWfE

[Russian Alara]

It should look kinda like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfv0itanWfE



noted with Interest , does this work on Beta as well though?

[HonorBasquiat]

If the fake is indistinguishable from the real thing (I understand it currently is not, but I believe it's only a matter of time until the forgery can't be distinguished from the genuine article), the brick and mortar store will not be able to move any singles as consumers can obtain the same thing for a fraction of the price from alibaba. Outside of Limited, why are consumers going to buy $4 boosters if they can just buy the chase rare for $1 from alibaba?

Lol at stores still being able to sell singles. Sure, if alibaba is offering Tarmogoyf for $5, what's the store going to do? They either offer their Tarmogoyf also for $5 and lose out on a ton of profit (assuming they had to spend more than $5 to acquire said Tarmogoyf) or they simply stop selling singles altogether as alibaba is able to create singles out of thin air whereas the stores need to spend money to acquire their Tarmogoyf's.

I read this thread and joined the forum just to engage in this discussion. I have a lot of thoughts and questions about this issue, so if this is too much, feel free just to respond to one idea.

I think it's a little rash to assume that everyone would buy counterfeit proxies if they were virtually indistinguishable. There are players who will see this as morally wrong and want to continue to support local card shops. There are players that would compete in tourneys that would be paranoid about being reprimanded for playing with fake cards. There are players who simply respect Wizards and want to continue to buy cards from them, etc. This isn't to say that passable proxies wouldn't have any effect on the market, especially if there were tens of thousands of them, but the notion that paper Magic the Gathering is over is a stretch.

I do think it would be a game changer for more casual kitchen players who don't spend a lot of money on cards but sometimes play with more competitive players. I also think it would be really cool for more novelty items like full art unhinged lands. I think these proxies could be used to have second copies of decks which could help ensure conditioning of players legitimate cards. Players wouldn't be as devastated if they lost these cards or if they were stolen. I also don't necessarily believe that buying proxies has to hurt the secondary market. I know we've heard a lot of bad analogies, but please just bare with me and evaluate this scenario:

Joe might by a playset proxy Jace the Mind Sculptor for $25, but he might not even have the $500 dollars in his bank account to buy a real set. So it's not like the shop is losing out, or Wizards for that matter. If the proxies didn't exist, Joe still wouldn't have an authentic playset of Jace. It's like if a 13 year old kid pirates Microsoft Office Executive Suite, Microsoft isn't REALLY losing $500 dollars. If the kid wasn't able to pirate the suite, he would just end up using Google Docs, right?

The stuff I'm worried about is people doing unethical things like deliberately trying to sell or trade passable proxies for real cards, store credit, or even cash. This will make people paranoid, it could have multiple effects on the market. People might rush and sell everything, or people might be afraid to buy from anyone.

I also really don't think there's much Wizards can do. Proxies are only going to get better and better (especially the more people point out the imperfections of said proxies). The holofoil stamp is cute, but it doesn't do anything to prevent proxies being made from 99% of the staples in Modern and Legacy now. Mr. Huang is in the process of making several thousands of proxies for very valuable cards. Most of these cards will be going to America. At this point we play the waiting game. Honestly, these cards are going to be very passable (especially inside of a worn card sleeve) and only improve over time. Sooner or later these cards from China will be available in America through secondary markets. Players that don't want to buy 500 cards at a time could instead buy a few dozen cards from someone who bought thousands of cards from Mr. Huang and other counterfeiters. Imagine purchasing a $2000 legacy deck for $20 that is virtually indistinguishable in card sleeves to a nonskeptical eye.

Sanctioned tournament play is going to get more complicated. Wizards might consider banning altered art cards from being played. This is a lose lose though. If they were to ban altered art cards from being played, players who spent money on value cards like Bob and Goyf and altered them under the impression that they would still be able to play with them would be furious, especially if they've already done it for years. If they don't ban altered art cards, it will become even easier to "fix" imperfections in proxied cards. We might see a similar phenonomon for cards in different languages. You might be able to notice the slight differences in text spacing on an English Tarmogoyf when looking at them side by side but imagine if you are looking at a passable proxied Russian Tarmogoyf. Do you think you would be able to spot a fake then?

Ultimately this is all very interesting. I already have friends that plan on buying these fakes for their EDH decks and cubes. I think this could be a game changer for certain types of players, but I don't think this will kill the market.

[Humphrey]

so in the future we are all playing in dark rooms with blacklight?

This trick might help collectors (at the moment), but on tournaments you will still be able to play with (current) fakes.

And what is with those stupid moral discussion? Capitalism does not know that word, neither do WotC/Hasbro. It has more moral to help poor guys playing a card game.

[danyul]

The blacklights will help when trading or buying in person. During a tournament (or when buying online!), you are leaning on Trust. That's true now and will presumably be true going forward.

@ Barook - Thanks. That is very helpful.

[Barook]

so in the future we are all playing in dark rooms with blacklight?
This would be mood anyway if those fakes are going to pass the blacklight test as they're rumored to.

[ESG]

I already have friends that plan on buying these fakes for their EDH decks and cubes.

Congratulations. Your friends will be supporting counterfeiters.

[Voncaster]

Joe might by a playset proxy Jace the Mind Sculptor for $25, but he might not even have the $500 dollars in his bank account to buy a real set. So it's not like the shop is losing out, or Wizards for that matter. If the proxies didn't exist, Joe still wouldn't have an authentic playset of Jace. It's like if a 13 year old kid pirates Microsoft Office Executive Suite, Microsoft isn't REALLY losing $500 dollars. If the kid wasn't able to pirate the suite, he would just end up using Google Docs, right?

Sure, but what about legit buyers? If legit buyers cannot be confidant that they are buying actual WotC products, but instead may be receiving fakes are they going to pull the trigger on a $500 purchase? Its the loss of confidence and the chilling effect on markets and businesses that depend on MTG that is of paramount concern. The game does not thrive without businesses (LGS, Online Dealers, and WotC) to support it.

[PirateKing]

My understanding is that as far as these Chinese cards go, you can't just go buy a playset of anything. Minimum order is like several thousand cards for $5,000 or something. Beyond these sampler packs they're sending out, the manufacturer is still going to need to find a fence on this side to really distribute them to potential buyers. Still a lot of pieces that need to come to come to bear before we have some handy mtgblackmarket.com to do all out illicit counterfeit shopping at.

[TheArchitect]

Just reposting this from MTGS because it is actually full of useful information instead of debates about the cost of living, discussion the last fad called "the underground sea diet", or bragging about how many staples we own.




55,000 Chinese MTG Counterfeits on January 19th Please Share!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ql-q0INFZI

Some of you may know MTGLion on Youtube; he normally does speculation videos (and has been an incredible speculator at that,) and he is a moderator on MTGSalvation under the username 'kirin'.

As the video explained, he had a two-and-a-half hour conversation with the distributor of the Chinese Counterfeits, and got information from him. The most prevalent and important information is that he will make and distribute 55,000 Counterfeit cards on January 19, mostly to Brazil and Spain. Other noteworthy information is confirmation that there hasn't been a market flood or massive shipment of these yet, so there's still time; that they have learned from the articles explaining how to spot fakes, and improved them; and that unless stopped, there will be another wave of 200,000 on the 23rd (of JAN) and they won't stop until stopped. This is very serious, much worse than I imagined.

[HonorBasquiat]

Sure, but what about legit buyers? If legit buyers cannot be confidant that they are buying actual WotC products, but instead may be receiving fakes are they going to pull the trigger on a $500 purchase? Its the loss of confidence and the chilling effect on markets and businesses that depend on MTG that is of paramount concern. The game does not thrive without businesses (LGS, Online Dealers, and WotC) to support it.

Re read my post. Just because there are fakes doesn't mean people will stop buying real cards and stores won't be able to verify they are selling the real product.

Suppose I have Susan has intention on spending $2000 dollars on a deck, Susan doesn't play competitively, she doesn't plan on selling, or trading the cards then who is Susan harming by purchasing and playing with a counterfeit deck that she paid 50 dollars for?

If Jim wasn't going to spend $250 dollars on basic lands and Jim buys 30 proxy Unhinged Islands for 30 dollars for his kitchen table Azami EDH deck, who's the victim? I don't see how this hurts small card shops or Wizards of the Coast.

[Scott]

My understanding is that as far as these Chinese cards go, you can't just go buy a playset of anything. Minimum order is like several thousand cards for $5,000 or something. Beyond these sampler packs they're sending out, the manufacturer is still going to need to find a fence on this side to really distribute them to potential buyers. Still a lot of pieces that need to come to come to bear before we have some handy mtgblackmarket.com to do all out illicit counterfeit shopping at.

I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that WotC might try to stop all this by tracing counterfeit cards to the distributors making those multi-thousand dollar orders on this side of the ocean, where they can utilize the US justice system.

I'm sure there's some horrible Drug War analogy to be made. An endgame in which WotC supplies weapons to Chinese local game stores to fight paramilitary counterfeiters seems inevitable.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Congratulations. Your friends will be supporting counterfeiters.

I think it's hilarious that people type things like this with a straight face and think they're making this really compelling argument.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My understanding is that as far as these Chinese cards go, you can't just go buy a playset of anything. Minimum order is like several thousand cards for $5,000 or something. Beyond these sampler packs they're sending out, the manufacturer is still going to need to find a fence on this side to really distribute them to potential buyers. Still a lot of pieces that need to come to come to bear before we have some handy mtgblackmarket.com to do all out illicit counterfeit shopping at.

The article claimed you could get about 54,000 cards for $800. Assuming you want about a hundred playsets each of the power nine, beta duals, library of alexandria, etc., for your friends, that's what, slightly more than a penny a card? You could sell a full playset of beta duals for $5 and turn a profit. They might not be perfect, now, but they'll get better and better.

[HonorBasquiat]

I think it's hilarious that people type things like this with a straight face and think they're making this really compelling argument.

Exactly. Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy. How many people here play on Cockatrice? I'm not hearing you guys complaining about how Cockatrice is hurting MTGO. Oh wait, it's not. Tell me who the victim is when someone buys a proxied $2000 dollar legacy deck for only $50 they obviously weren't going actually to buy anyway.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think it's hilarious that people type things like this with a straight face and think they're making this really compelling argument.

I'm confused. So you are not supporting counterfeiters by buying fake products or are you saying we should encourage supporting counterfeits for some reason and if so what reason might that be?


The article claimed you could get about 54,000 cards for $800. Assuming you want about a hundred playsets each of the power nine, beta duals, library of alexandria, etc., for your friends, that's what, slightly more than a penny a card? You could sell a full playset of beta duals for $5 and turn a profit. They might not be perfect, now, but they'll get better and better.

Aside from any argument on whether or not this is ethical/moral/dickmove whatever, this is NOT the kind of thing you would want to be caught doing from a legal standpoint.

[Tormod]

Exactly. Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy. How many people here play on Cockatrice? I'm not hearing you guys complaining about how Cockatrice is hurting MTGO. Oh wait, it's not. Tell me who the victim is when someone buys a proxied $2000 dollar legacy deck for only $50 they obviously weren't going actually to buy anyway.

And you're assuming that EVERYONE who buys the "proxies" will be honest and won't try to pass them off as real cards to an unsuspecting trader or buyer.

Seriously, are you really that limited in intelligence that you can't figure out who the victim is?

[HonorBasquiat]

I'm confused. So you are not supporting counterfeiters by buying fake products or are you saying we should encourage supporting counterfeits for some reason and if so what reason might that be?



Aside from any argument on whether or not this is ethical/moral/dickmove whatever, this is NOT the kind of thing you would want to be caught doing from a legal standpoint.

What's the harm in supporting good proxies if you don't plan on reselling them, trading them, or playing with them competitively?

Do you think Cockatrice and Lackey are morally wrong? More importantly, do you honestly believe that are hurting MTGO?

[prateta]

It's amazing how you completely managed to fuck up this thread with hoards of useless spam. Whenever someone, including me, posted some new information in past couple of days when this thread has been up - an actual ON TOPIC information, it always got lost in spam and has been completely ignored. Useless "I know copyright, copyright is bad, good, I own black lotus, don't eat and buy Sea, i play majic in mah k'tchen w proxies ain't nobody gonna stop me" spam. Seriously, this is even worse than MTGS or 4chan. Someone please lock this terrible thread or I'm going to vomit all over the place.

[HonorBasquiat]

And you're assuming that EVERYONE who buys the "proxies" will be honest and won't try to pass them off as real cards to an unsuspecting trader or buyer.

Seriously, are you really that limited in intelligence that you can't figure out who the victim is?

Then demonize the people that are trying to do those things. Don't attack casual players who want to play with convincing looking cards a couple times a week without spending 1000s of dollars.

[Tormod]

Agreed, all the good information is drowned out by the white noise of Epissing contest this thread has turned into.

If it was the 80s I'd send Mr. T out to slap some sense into this thread

[HammafistRoob]

Then demonize the people that are trying to do those things. Don't attack casual players who want to play with convincing looking cards a couple times a week without spending 1000s of dollars.
Then print out little pieces of paper and slide them over basic lands in sleeves. Please don't support these bastards.

[Tormod]

Then demonize the people that are trying to do those things. Don't attack casual players who want to play with convincing looking cards a couple times a week without spending 1000s of dollars.

Oh of course, we'll use the honor system!

"Everyone who wants to buy proxies please stand up, Ok everyone who is buying proxies just for personal casual use you can sit down.
Everyone who is buying proxies to pass off as real cards to make money please remain standing and identify yourselves to the proper authorities."

really dude? are you that naive?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm confused. So you are not supporting counterfeiters by buying fake products or are you saying we should encourage supporting counterfeits for some reason and if so what reason might that be?

It saves people money, which they can do other things with.

People listen to pirated music all the time. No one complains about counterfeited poker decks- who's getting the copyrights for that? For that matter, who is Wizards paying for all its borrowed intellectual property rights, from elves and goblins, to Dracula and Frankenstein, to Greek mythology?

What reason is there not to support counterfeiting, if the counterfeits are good?

I mean it's worth keeping in mind the vast disparity in what you would pay to support a band you like by buying their album instead of pirating it, maybe $10, or what you would pay to support a board game you like, maybe $40-60, or even what you'd pay to buy a full run of a show in DVDs or something like that, versus what it costs to build even a modest Magic deck in even a contemporary, non-eternal format.

And given Wizards' track record of protecting that investment against theft at their tournaments.... yeah, my sympathy's kind of limited.

[dontbiteitholmes]

It's amazing how you completely managed to fuck up this thread with hoards of useless spam. Whenever someone, including me, posted some new information in past couple of days when this thread has been up - an actual ON TOPIC information, it always got lost in spam and has been completely ignored. Useless "I know copyright, copyright is bad, good, I own black lotus, don't eat and buy Sea, i play majic in mah k'tchen w proxies ain't nobody gonna stop me" spam. Seriously, this is even worse than MTGS or 4chan. Someone please lock this terrible thread or I'm going to vomit all over the place.

On topic is you posting screen shots of yourself ordering cards and asking him to print Black Lotus, go jump in a fire.


What's the harm in supporting good proxies if you don't plan on reselling them, trading them, or playing with them competitively?

Do you think Cockatrice and Lackey are morally wrong? More importantly, do you honestly believe that are hurting MTGO?

The victims of people supporting counterfeiters are the shops and the players. Players will get passed bad cards and it will be harder to sell their cards. Shops will have to scrutinize cards more and will lose out on sales to people who knowingly buy fakes when they otherwise would have invested in real cards (and occasionally fakes may slip into stores which represents a HUGE loss on their books). Without the casual idiot demand the printers will struggle to sell enough to justify firing up the machinery when they could just continue printing the normal products, apparently these counterfeits wouldn't even exist if someone hadn't tricked the company into it (they weren't even equipped to place a full order). Don't forget it takes time to set up all this equipment and formulate out how to do a good job. It's not like they go on Wizards and pull up an image and press print, there's a reason minimum orders are in the thousands of sheets. Also the printer makes the same amount off these they would off making their normal products, it's the idiots driving up demand that are going to cause the community to get flooded with fakes instead of the trickle we've had for so many years.

IDK what Lackey is. Cockatrice would be a good comparison if the creators were making a profit and using that to hack into MTGO and duplicate thousands and thousands of chase rares. That's not happening though, if it was would you support Cockatrice?

[Wilkin]

Then print out little pieces of paper and slide them over basic lands in sleeves. Please don't support these bastards.

For sure. Why can't someone use their own printer for a proxy? Sure it obviously can't pass for the real thing but that wasn't the point, just good enough so that people can easily recognize what card you are playing.

Any new news? Saw that Mark Rosewater had a response to this operation. Only info was that he was aware of it. Wasn't expecting him to divulge anything though. :)

One thing that does concern me are that some real cards are going to be mistaken for fakes as cards have flaws in them. For instance I have a bunch of Ponders from M10, all from packs (i drafted m10 heavily when I got back into Magic). Some have a weird pink blotch on the bottom, some don't.