Chinese fakes

[Higgs]

I meant does it actually pass the UV test or not :) Those two accounts were contradictory.

[Dice_Box]

It passes the UV test, but fails the "Hold up to a light source" test.

[Higgs]

Do you have access to any counterfeits? From HonorBasquiat's post I understood the opposite.

[Dice_Box]

Myself? No, but I read his article about it on cmus.

Light test - FAILED this test is to attach the card to a bright light source. The card should be slightly translucent and should appear regular blue veining. Test: Counterfeit vs Goblin Piledriver Goblin Piledriver original
Result: Original showed good translucency and beautiful blue veining. Forgery was almost opaque and blue veining was present very bland.

UV test - PASSED right cards should glow under UV light. With this test, I originally did not count, finally managed to get a UV lamp.
Test: Counterfeit Snapcaster Mage vs original Mirrodin Chalice of the Void Result: Both cards under UV light shone. This coincides with the first online test is what declares itself a company producing fakes.

[Barook]

The funny part is that Wizards could make loads of money if they printed a non-tournament legal Cube complete draft set (similiar to the MTGO Cube). Just make them distinguisable with new art/frame and a different border, e.g. a gold one.

Reprints that aren't tournament-legal are fair game under the Reserve List and it would bring some relaxation to the secondary market since casual players who play Cube/EDH don't have to buy the expensive staples fromt he secondary market.

[Higgs]

That's frigging bad news as I'm still in the process of completing my P9 and I tend to hunt for online deals rather than going to large events and shopping around in booths. Bend test is out of the question for me and I find the light test unreliable because with old cards and different print runs (darker color vs lighter color) I always see some variation between the amount of light that passes and don't believe I can tell a fake from a different print if the difference isn't really obvious. I'd recently ordered an UV light but looks like it won't be any use to me. Last bastions; corners and rules text printing.

[Dice_Box]

Dot patterns will be your friend.

[TheArchitect]

Haha, not really. I'm more of a casual player. I'm more curious if I can play with these at my LGS, some of the players there get a little bitchy about proxies.

I hope the players at your LGS get a lot more than a little bitchy when they realize you are funding Chinese counterfeiters undermine the company that brought you magic in the first place.

If it is just proxies for casual play you want, why not just make some? You can make ones that look as good as those fakes in a sleeve for less than 20c a piece in supplies/ink if you dont care about the card feeling real or passing tests.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's the most important I guess. I was also talking about recognizing them online/in person and some protective elements Wizards use on back of their cards (two white dots on the back etc). About some text differences, that they are softer than original cards. I also presented them to many people (both online and in person) and got some percentage if people recognize them. Online almost everybody failed, in person if they were unsleaved, everybody recognized they are fakes. They failed on almost everything. In the end, the overall summary would be they are completely harmless when doing trades in person with unsleeved cards. Unless you try to sell them to 10 y/o, nobody will bait on it.

However, they are perfectly able to be sold as originals online. Especially the low-end cards like Engineered Explosives etc. Truth is, majority of people don't really demand scans when buying $10 cards. I'd be carefull when buying on ebay, MKM, MOTL etc from now on.

Edit: the fact that they failed bend test (4th - 5th bend and they broke) is the most important. Even after the first bend, there appeared a very little crease. That would never happen with genuine card, so the verification is rather simple, for example if your eyes are bad and you can't focus on such things as 1mm white dots or different background color.

Oh and as someone had allready mentioned before - the corners are Alpha-ish and the overall card is like 0.02mm smaller (measured by a pro with some pro tools :-D)

They are glossier, the resolution of print is lower. Then there are some really specific things like that the whole card is printed as a bitmap by offset machines, whilst original cards have some parts printed as negative. But to see this you need a polygraphic magnifying glass.
Yep, I was lazy to translate the longer texts, and one of them is the part on back sides. I thought you'll do it in future, so I saved myself some tiem. :)

I don't think they may easily pass online, unless of course this means "everything passes online". The amount of tricks that a scammer may do is endless (fake scans, w/e), but in the end it's about you opening the envelope and finding... fakes. How is this solved on the usual pages IDK, but I won't be afraid to use MKM, esp. when dealing with good sellers and better.

I'm curious about the bitmap and negative print thingy, I'm not sure I get: is it a matter of dry sheet offset or what?



Like another poster said I think Wotc may have to come up with sets of 'Tournament only Proxies' with a specific 'seal' or border etc.. to head this future problem off at the pass and keep the 'collector' market stable to some degree...as I don't think this is "If" anymore but 'When'...
These are called White Bordered Core Set Reprints. Alas, WotC are stupid, and they do them no more. Instead you get Omniscience.

[JanoschEausH]

First of all the pattern doesn't seem correct, but the major difference to a real card is that the characters are stamped onto the pattern -> thus they have sharp edges. Just poor fakes - nothing more.

Although I really don't understand why people are doing tests and stuff but are not able to show high resolution scans or magnifications.

Edit: same as here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9887680&postcount=19

So what you are saying is: Real cards have sharper edges (letters) and on the wasteland fake the letters are printed within the dot pattern which leads to less sharp edges. Did i get you right?

[Stephan/]

So what you are saying is: Real cards have sharper edges (letters) and on the wasteland fake the letters are printed within the dot pattern which leads to less sharp edges. Did i get you right?

Exactly. It looks like it was printed as one picture.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thanks for info!

[SilverGreen]

Of all the people in here, you seam the most willing to go and buy a ton of these. So forgive my bluntness but go seek your information elsewhere. While we do talk about the cards here, we will not help you in your endever to buy and use these cards. That's not what this thread is for.Sure, sure. Perhaps people could just do the same that MaRo does whenever he faces a text containing "unsolicited material", and immediately "stops reading". Ok. I bought that one.

Keep going, dudes. I'm really sure these talks won't be used by counterfeiters to improve their counterfeits. Never mind. No way.

Keep up the good work.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sure, sure. Perhaps people could just do the same that MaRo does whenever he faces a text containing "unsolicited material", and immediately "stops reading". Ok. I bought that one.

Keep going, dudes. I'm really sure these talks won't be used by counterfeiters to improve their counterfeits. Never mind. No way.

Keep up the good work.

I don't get you. First of all, the fakers do their own research, it's called quality control and it's done with every order a printhouse makes. Moreover, do you really want the community to be mute about the affair? Whom would it help?

[Dan Turner]

The Chinese are now selling singles via a website. Not going to link the website here but for $150 + $3 shipping you get 55 cards. Or you can get underground seas $36.90 shipped

[SirTylerGalt]

Fake Magic Cards in Edmonton Area. Be Wary! (reddit.com/r/magicTCG) (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1wfuem/fake_magic_cards_in_edmonton_area_be_wary/)

[Darkenslight]

Fake Magic Cards in Edmonton Area. Be Wary! (reddit.com/r/magicTCG) (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1wfuem/fake_magic_cards_in_edmonton_area_be_wary/)

Could be a hoax - the first picture was linked in this thread a few weeks ago (note: this isn't me downplaying the fact that these are the same counterfeits mentioned previously.)

[JPoJohnson]

I haven't read the entire thread, but it looks like the fakes were removed both from ebay and the original printers site. I wonder if legal action took place against them. Still, there would still be a lot of fakes out there.


Also - There was an employee at SCG that stated that to people that have played magic for a little while that many of the fakes would be easy to spot and that most did not have the quality that was shared with the pictures, that those were the 'cream of the crop' so to speak.

[sdematt]

Even the second run isn't good enough, in my opinion.

I saw some at GP Vancouver that a vender had and it was good, but not amazing. It'll fool someone new to the game, but if you've played long enough and you really FEEL the cards, it's not right. Very similar, if anyone remembers, to the fake Pokemon cards of the late 90's. Waxy.

-Matt

[JPoJohnson]

Even the second run isn't good enough, in my opinion.

I saw some at GP Vancouver that a vender had and it was good, but not amazing. It'll fool someone new to the game, but if you've played long enough and you really FEEL the cards, it's not right. Very similar, if anyone remembers, to the fake Pokemon cards of the late 90's. Waxy.

-Matt

Was the vendor selling them as real?

[sdematt]

Of course not. I know him, and he was showing them to me.

-Matt

[SilverGreen]

I don't get you. First of all, the fakers do their own research, it's called quality control and it's done with every order a printhouse makes. Moreover, do you really want the community to be mute about the affair? Whom would it help?Sorry to say that, but you understood the post in reverse. :p

[Dragonslayer_90]

http://www.starcityshop.com/

What do you guys think? People in my school magic club are pretty convinced that this is an online vendor trying to sell the fake cards. They have planeswalkers listed as creatures lol.

[TheArchitect]

http://www.starcityshop.com/

What do you guys think? People in my school magic club are pretty convinced that this is an online vendor trying to sell the fake cards. They have planeswalkers listed as creatures lol.

That is the site Dan is referring to in this:


The Chinese are now selling singles via a website. Not going to link the website here but for $150 + $3 shipping you get 55 cards. Or you can get underground seas $36.90 shipped

Those are 100% fakes. That site is however, quiet hilarious. I cant wait to get me some Jace creature from starcityshop.

The site is also being discussed here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=589372


This is their disclaimer, clearly selling the chinese fakes:

MUST READ!!! Acknowledgement of the following DISCLAIMER is required before making a purchase: StarCityShop.com and its products are by no means affiliated with Wizards of the Coast or any of its subsidiaries. Our products are NOT offered or authorized by its manufactures. We make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the listing or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained on the listing for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is therefore strictly at your own risk. We will not be held responsible for any misuse or misrepresentations of our products conducted by buyers.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

When I saw the Star City Shop logo I loled.

"Four stripes? More stripes, more adidas!"

[Lans89]

OMG I also lol'd... but this is so wrong..

I love Magic and now I'm so paranoid about this development.. What if they will be able to make even better fakes? Some of the people in this thread give stupid defenitions of horders, but the fact that I can play almost any Legacy deck doesn't make me a bad person or &%$#@! horder.. And no, I don't own 8 FoW to do so. Just play one kind of sleeves! I just love this game and play too much, always switching decks and debating forever what I should play ^^! I don't want the market to crash, but even worse is that things like BoM or the Starcity series will vanish if there is no profit for sellers etc.. I refuse to panic and sell half of my collection, but damn I HOPE THIS WILL STOP!

Well that was my 02:14 freak out :cry:

[Scott]

OMG I also lol'd... but this is so wrong..

I love Magic and now I'm so paranoid about this development.. What if they will be able to make even better fakes? Some of the people in this thread give stupid defenitions of horders, but the fact that I can play almost any Legacy deck doesn't make me a bad person or &%$#@! horder.. And no, I don't own 8 FoW to do so. Just play one kind of sleeves! I just love this game and play too much, always switching decks and debating forever what I should play ^^! I don't want the market to crash, but even worse is that things like BoM or the Starcity series will vanish if there is no profit for sellers etc.. I refuse to panic and sell half of my collection, but damn I HOPE THIS WILL STOP!

Well that was my 02:14 freak out :cry:

Anyone who says that you're doing anything wrong is silly :smile:

[Technics]

From That website:



LEGACY

Demonic Tutor
Sol Ring
Vampiric Tutor

I am obviously playing Legacy wrong. I don't have any of those cards in my deck...

[Jon]

I'm all for the fakes getting better. I have duals, and might lose money, but I don't really care. I just want to be able to play what I want when I want, with lots of players, and a wide variety of strategy. You don't get that by making the cards everybody needs increase in value to the point where only the rich get to join the game on a whim. Seriously, 2,000$ is easy for a family making 6-7-8 figures, it's not even a thought. But for a poor family living on the margin? Forget playing magic little jimmy, looks like your getting a job just to eat this week!

This is about the game being accessible to the poor, and i'm all for it. Fuck the Prince of Wales .

It's funny, people here are calling others here 'entitled' for wanting fair prices, saying 'well you gotta save up for this shit!', but this hypocrisy is almost royal. Fuck you! Money is depreciating in value, and the cards are increasing in value. You guys are the ones acting with a sense of entitlement.

"Oh I came first, Oh I saved up for mine."

Why don't we just turn magic into a country club with token poor kids who get to borrow extra decks from their wealthy 'friends', yeah that sounds swell. Oh yeah, and we'll make room for the lucky poor bastards who bought in early.


I like you. I agree with everything you said. FUCK THE PRICE OF WALES!

[MGB]

I'm all for the fakes getting better. I have duals, and might lose money, but I don't really care. I just want to be able to play what I want when I want, with lots of players, and a wide variety of strategy. You don't get that by making the cards everybody needs increase in value to the point where only the rich get to join the game on a whim. Seriously, 2,000$ is easy for a family making 6-7-8 figures, it's not even a thought. But for a poor family living on the margin? Forget playing magic little jimmy, looks like your getting a job just to eat this week!

This is about the game being accessible to the poor, and i'm all for it. Fuck the Prince of Wales .

It's funny, people here are calling others here 'entitled' for wanting fair prices, saying 'well you gotta save up for this shit!', but this hypocrisy is almost royal. Fuck you! Money is depreciating in value, and the cards are increasing in value. You guys are the ones acting with a sense of entitlement.

"Oh I came first, Oh I saved up for mine."

Why don't we just turn magic into a country club with token poor kids who get to borrow extra decks from their wealthy 'friends', yeah that sounds swell. Oh yeah, and we'll make room for the lucky poor bastards who bought in early.

Simply put - if you care about actually playing the game far more than collecting cards then you should support the proliferation of high-quality fakes that would increase the supply of Legacy staples.

[lavafrogg]

Simply put - if you care about actually playing the game far more than collecting cards then you should support the proliferation of high-quality fakes that would increase the supply of Legacy staples.

My friend pulled out his beta lightbing bolts the other day, that he has had for years, Lo and behold, one of them was a fake! We laughed and re sleeved it no harm no foul.

If it increases the amount of people to play the game and that can have fun, then so be it. Wizards will be forced to reprint cards and availability will go up either way.

If I could buy my wife 4 gaes cradles for 30 a piece, I would.

[Lemnear]

Simply put - if you care about actually playing the game far more than collecting cards then you should support the proliferation of high-quality fakes that would increase the supply of Legacy staples.

I seriously Wish after such a comment, that at some point you'll pay for a real card and get a fake instead either unnoticed per personal trade or via eBay.

I'm just going to light- & Bend-test every fucking 20$ cards from now on and God forbid anyone is dumb enough trying to sell me a fake

[Phelix]

http://www.starcityshop.com/ <==fakes

[Lemnear]

http://www.starcityshop.com/ <==fakes

I love the logo ... Trollolololol



I'm so glad I cashed in my Vintage Collection. No one will buy Power and shit with so many Fakes in circulation and the current eco situation

[lordofthepit]

Simply put - if you care about actually playing the game far more than collecting cards then you should support the proliferation of high-quality fakes that would increase the supply of Legacy staples.

How does the availability of high-quality fakes improve the game? Did they do some R&D in designing new cards that will make Legacy even more fun and appealing?

The only thing high-quality fakes would theoretically enable is a player to participate in a sanctioned event with counterfeit items. The ability to enjoy the game at the kitchen table or to otherwise proxy decks for testing is essentially the same. And while one might argue that this (allowing counterfeiters to play in sanction events) lowers the barrier to entry for the format, it is absolutely toxic to the game. The result of widespread counterfeits would not be to allow more players to participate in sanctioned events, but rather, the wholesale loss of sanctioned events as tournament organizers and stores move towards markets not completely flooded with counterfeits.

[Erdvermampfa]

It's not like these fakes cost nothing. They just lower the price of staples to a reasonable level.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's not like these fakes cost nothing. They lower the price of staples to a reasonable level.

Not everyone will buy them from Starcity Shop; the original factory will provide them even cheaper. Goyf for three bucks may lower the price below reasonable level. Left without support, the tournament scene may collapse.

I find it a bit ironic that (just a few posts above) lordofthepit's signature links us to "Why the demise of Legacy is greatly exaggerated" article. Legacy (and tournament Magic at all) might be in the most serious danger ever. I'm really bothered by WotC's reprint policy and I blame them for letting things go so far. On the one hand, I do understand that they don't reprint the old stuff, similarly to how the automobile industry doesn't make 19th century steam cars anymore. Or, to remain closer to our object, ho there are no new prints of original (A)D&D rules from 1970's or when: there are new rulebooks, new versions, play with them, please. And if you want to kill orcs with the old rulebooks, dig them somewhere. On the other hand, Magic is pretty different, and while one may kill orcs with the old rules without actually having the rulebooks (moreover without actually having any rulebook at all), you can't play MtG without cards. Yes, it's obvious, I know, but I don't understand why the heads of WotC missed this.

[Kayradis]

I think this whole issue is getting out of control.
We are all players/investors/collectors/plain idiots and we all love this game more than the guy next to you.
THIS is the PRIME Legacy community on the interwebs. Shit. One of the boss from SCG has an account here as well as multiple pros. This is where shit happens when Legacy is concerned.

It's my opinion at this point that if we don't want to see everything going to shit we either :
1-Do Something;
2-Do Something;
3-Do Something; or
4-All of the above.

Do what?
I don't know, but at least think of something.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

there is only one thing you could do to actually stop the fakeing trend temporaly and this is a reprint with a new security messure.
I would suggest to reprint the complete reserved list in an extra set with can be brought in a from of booster and displays maybe
also as al limited special playset edidtion for a high price with all cards included as playsets and all restricted cards as one of.

Yes this will drop the price and yes some guys will argue that that is not what they want because their cards lose value.
BUt to be honset we a not talking about some comercial papers but about magic cards and therefore our goal should be
to have a playerbase as big as possible and high prices will hinder this.
In addtion to that we will rech a point were nobody can afford the price of real cards and so everybody will play with the fake one.

As it is now i support the fake cards because I think that the price is quiet right and resonable. So again to change that
and come to a healthier comunity I think a offical reprint is necessary not to mention how much money you would make
with a reprint because everybody who want to play legeacy and vintage will buy the cards at insntant speed.

Best regards Teveshszat

[SilverGreen]

"What doesn't grow, dies. And what dies grows the Tarmogoyf".

If it was a Modern Masters irony aimed at Legacy, it now seems they missed the target.

[Nielsie]

It appears Cartamundi had a leak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsrrMgotapQ

Is this how those Chinese fakers reversed engineered the process?

:laugh:

Seriously, still anxiously waiting for an english report on those counterfeits. I recently bought a set of Liliana's, they look genuine but in these times I guess everyone gets a little bit paranoid :frown:

[Kayradis]

Im trying to get the LGS where I take care of the MTG stuff a small UV light.
Im gonna start testing everything.

[PirateKing]

Im trying to get the LGS where I take care of the MTG stuff a small UV light.
Im gonna start testing everything.

Wasn't it confirmed this generation of cards pass the UV light test, but fail the transparency light test?

[Kayradis]

Id rather run all the test I can.
Legit ppl wont care about me asking to test their dual before selling.
People that try to make money off that scam will just leave.

[Higgs]

Yep, I think someone confirmed that the UV test was out the window. I then ordered a loupe. My wife then looked at me like I'm a geek for the first time. Damn you counterfeiting chinamen.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yep, I think someone confirmed that the UV test was out the window. I then ordered a loupe. My wife then looked at me like I'm a geek for the first time. Damn you counterfeiting chinamen.

As a former geology major, I see nothing wrong with owning a loupe. Or several.

[Higgs]

I don't have a geology major, I just need the loupe to look at Magic cards :) Who'd have thought we'd come to this.

[Kayradis]

The StarCityShop website is down at the moment.

Hmmmmm.......
My spider senses are tingling!

[lordofthepit]

I find it a bit ironic that (just a few posts above) lordofthepit's signature links us to "Why the demise of Legacy is greatly exaggerated" article. Legacy (and tournament Magic at all) might be in the most serious danger ever.

I wrote that blog post almost a year ago. I still don't think Legacy is in any danger of being replaced by other formats (e.g, Modern), and the attendance trends within the past year further strengthen my belief.

I also don't think tournament Magic is in imminent danger, based on how poorly these fakes are. However, if counterfeiters were hypothetically able to make indistinguishable fakes, that would represent the biggest threat to Magic in its entire history.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It appears Cartamundi had a leak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsrrMgotapQ

Is this how those Chinese fakers reversed engineered the process?

:laugh:

Many thanks for the video, I was curious how the cards are done, but even though I'm in polygraphy for nearly tw odecades, I somehow never knew this.



I wrote that blog post almost a year ago. I still don't think Legacy is in any danger of being replaced by other formats (e.g, Modern), and the attendance trends within the past year further strengthen my belief.

I also don't think tournament Magic is in imminent danger, based on how poorly these fakes are. However, if counterfeiters were hypothetically able to make indistinguishable fakes, that would represent the biggest threat to Magic in its entire history.
I wasn't having fun of you. Sorry if it felt like that. Really, it was just that I considered it a bit ironic that just a year after your analysis, things seem to change quite drastically. Hopefully I'm wrong.


Btw, I just took a look at the fake cards and more importantly, held them in hand. They're good in (double) sleeves and undoubtfully will pass in a tournament... until deckcheck.
They are sooo much different from the real card I don't even know where to start. But I guess that small kids or their moms may be tricked into buying them. :mad:

[Lemnear]

http://cdn.macrumors.com/article/2010/06/01/154120-90fba609e4140d6d785f11.jpg

Looks legit ... pay 600€

[lordofthepit]

I wasn't having fun of you. Sorry if it felt like that. Really, it was just that I considered it a bit ironic that just a year after your analysis, things seem to change quite drastically. Hopefully I'm wrong.

I didn't feel like you were making fun of me, but I wanted to address that comment. :)

[dragonwisdom]

Hello,

there is only one thing you could do to actually stop the fakeing trend temporaly and this is a reprint with a new security messure.
I would suggest to reprint the complete reserved list in an extra set with can be brought in a from of booster and displays maybe
also as al limited special playset edidtion for a high price with all cards included as playsets and all restricted cards as one of.

Yes this will drop the price and yes some guys will argue that that is not what they want because their cards lose value.
BUt to be honset we a not talking about some comercial papers but about magic cards and therefore our goal should be
to have a playerbase as big as possible and high prices will hinder this.
In addtion to that we will rech a point were nobody can afford the price of real cards and so everybody will play with the fake one.

As it is now i support the fake cards because I think that the price is quiet right and resonable. So again to change that
and come to a healthier comunity I think a offical reprint is necessary not to mention how much money you would make
with a reprint because everybody who want to play legeacy and vintage will buy the cards at insntant speed.

Best regards Teveshszat


You clearly do not understand what makes magic a collectible card game and what makes it successful. Fakes will turn MTG into a board game. Wotc would sell less packs, stores would go out
of business and so hasboro would discontinue the game. If you can't see or understand that, I am very sorry for you. Ask yourself this question would you pay 4.00 a pack for worth less cards?

If you want to play mtg just for the fun of it, no one is stopping you. Buy some cheap commons off ebay and play those cards with your friends.

[Patrunkenphat7]

The entitlement complex of people favoring the counterfeits is just sad. It's pretty easy to predict where they fall on real-world issues...

[humppa]

Still do not understand why need those fakes to have a fun from the game.

Playing EDH every week with my friends. Only casual in our tearoom. They spent ~300 CZK (15USD) on each of their deck. And they are playing duallands, fetchlands etc.

Yes, you can buy a color printer on your own. And during the game, I cannot find out what card is printed home and what card is original.

Nobody needs fakes (for tens of USD!) to have a fun with magic. And playing fakes on official tournaments actually killing the game, because there will be less and less organisators.

[lyracian]

Ask yourself this question would you pay 4.00 a pack for worth less cards? .

Is that not what most people do already? The content of most boosters is worth less than what was spent on them.

[Julian23]

And playing fakes on official tournaments actually killing the game, because there will be less and less organisators.

You know what's also killing the game? Pricelevels. It's the official main reason (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/235) why Legacy is still not considered for being a Pro-Tour format.

Reprinting cards Modern-Masters style will accomplish only little; reprinting them in either a T2 legal set or something with the same kind of availability will help, see Thoughtseize.
Of course counterfeits are no actual solution and will hurt the game. But I'm honestly glad we're even having this more general debatte about availability because of them.

Also, people, don't bullshit about entitlement. We're not taking about people wanting to play golf or go diving on the Maldives.

[PirateKing]

Nobody buys packs to get cards. At least not cards relevant to this forum. And Julian as usual is right. Legacy being more popular than ever is putting availability at an all time low. It is an inevitability that some party will expand availability, and I think everybody's first choice is Hasboro, but as long as they refuse to answer, then next in line is China.

[TsumiBand]

You know what's also killing the game? Pricelevels. It's the official main reason (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/235) why Legacy is still not considered for being a Pro-Tour format.

Reprinting cards Modern-Masters style will accomplish only little; reprinting them in either a T2 legal set or something with the same kind of availability will help, see Thoughtseize.
Of course counterfeits are no actual solution and will hurt the game. But I'm honestly glad we're even having this more general debatte about availability because of them.

Also, people, don't bullshit about entitlement. We're not taking about people wanting to play golf or go diving on the Maldives.

Especially the bolded part. This kills me. The scope of the conversation gets totally lost when people start rolling in their outside opinions about what is, or is not, entitlement.

Case in point.


The entitlement complex of people favoring the counterfeits is just sad. It's pretty easy to predict where they fall on real-world issues...

But go ahead and just leave it ambiguous enough that you could turn around and go, "what umadbro? I didn't say which 'issues' I was talking about, you took it there not me man lolz"

Look, it's not that hard -- you want to talk about the game, talk about the game. 'Real-world issues', whatever you're implying by that, I'm guessing have jack to do with the topic at hand.

Honestly I couldn't care less whether or not counterfeits exist; the only time I've ever even considered them is to make some alters instead of ruining my actual cards, and otherwise I cannot stand to use proxies because "I just don't like them."

[Patrunkenphat7]

Also, people, don't bullshit about entitlement. We're not taking about people wanting to play golf or go diving on the Maldives.

If you are pro-counterfeits, you are in favor of stealing from WotC and fellow Magic players who have invested into the format. You feel entitled to the product because you perceive it as too expensive. You might as well go print yourself some counterfeit 100 dollar bills as well and go to town.

And TsumiBand, you don't need to respond if the comment makes you uncomfortable. I just found it interesting that a local unemployed Marxist who plays at our gaming store was overwhelmed with joy when he heard about the counterfeits, and my friends and I who have families and jobs in the business world were both frightened and disgusted by the news.

[Illusions]

The entitlement complex of people favoring the counterfeits is just sad. It's pretty easy to predict where they fall on real-world issues...

This is rich when it's those against reprints -- the accusers in this case -- that are holding legacy ransom. I'll spell it out for you, since you don't have the horsepower to chug through the logic yourself:

1) Card price is directly linked to playability, not reprint policy. Case in point, goyf can be reprinted as many times as WOTC feels, and is still $140. Meanwhile, most of the reserved list can't crack $5, because the majority of them are bad cards. In terms of the number of cards printed in the history of the game, the vast majority are in fact worthless, and it's only the very top percentile that just so happen to be eternally playable that are affected by counterfeits. Expensive cards are not the gel holding this game together, players are.

2) Right now, the playability of legacy cards is buoyed primarily by SCG and their tournament circuit. Revised underground seas have now been bumped up to $250, which is an astronomical price for cards that were never meant to be a collectors' items in the first place (which is why revised has white borders; if you wanted to collect, you would get betas and alphas, which have black borders, and were intended as collectibles). SCG is not only one of the primary vendors, they are effectively 90% of the US legacy tournament scene, and the major driving force behind its popularity as a format. Without SCG, legacy would be in very, very serious trouble.

3) If you look at the formats, the price of entry is a far more reliable indicator of the number of players it has than the quality of its gameplay. There is a direct correlation between low prices, a high number of players, and tournament regularity, with casual, limited, EDH, and standard having vastly more players than the eternal formats. At this stage, though a number of you will likely deny it, even modern is more widespread, despite WOTC's consistent fuck-ups. Legacy has a devoted following, but in relative terms, it is being outpaced by the other formats because players are largely unable to buy in with prices as they currently are.

4) At some stage -- I don't know when -- SCG will drop legacy as its Sunday format. Sooner or later, the growth will end (I'm thinking sooner) as the available card pool is pushed to its limits, and prices climb ever higher; not only will modern eventually produce larger profit margins than legacy (if it doesn't already), there will be significant demand from its larger and more influential player base for a tournament series. If SCG doesn't offer this, a competitor will, and will supplant SCG as the dominant card trader, and tournament provider. I'm not sure how many of you noticed, but this is already starting to happen, with numerous players on the larger message boards asking why SCG doesn't hold modern tournaments. We could be seeing a radical shift away from the format as early as next year if things stay on their current trajectory.

5) When SCG does drop legacy, the prices of many staples will collapse. Price memory will prevent them from being worthless, but being legal in niche, largely unsupported formats, will mean that they lose most of their current value. At this stage, we've lost not only the value on the cards, but also the tournament scene as well. As anyone with a clue will tell you, the prices, not counterfeits, are the thing that will kill legacy.

Now, these counterfeits are a unique opportunity, because they will have relatively little impact on standard due to the inherent risk and time required to counterfeit a constant supply of new cards. I'm not saying it can't be done, but these guys are still having trouble getting 20 year old cards with no counterfeit protection right. In light of this, I'm not particularly worried about Wizards' bottom line. Further to this point, I can think of plenty of instances of markets collapsing due to bubbles bursting (Dotcom bubble? 2008? GFC? That should ring a bell for some of you), but I cannot for the life of me think of a single example of counterfeits ever causing economic collapse or disaster anywhere. Seriously, if anyone can find an example, I'd actually be curious to know, because thus far, I'm reasonably certain that no precedent for it actually exists. Rather, this is likely the best thing that has ever happened to the format, because it means a way around the reprint policy, even if it has to be done with some plausible deniability. As I mentioned earlier, prices are the most accurate indicator of how widely played a format is, and so all the evidence and precedents suggest that a massive drop in prices (due to high quality counterfeits or reprints, it matters not) will actually increase the number of players and tournaments being held. The fact is, without new cards, the prices are rapidly reaching the point of unsustainability (and I would argue they've already moved beyond that); without new people entering the format, legacy will be superseded by larger, more influential formats, and we'll go the same way as vintage. But hey, at least entitled kids never got to play with your cards, right?


If you are pro-counterfeits, you are in favor of stealing from WotC and fellow Magic players who have invested into the format. You feel entitled to the product because you perceive it as too expensive. You might as well go print yourself some counterfeit 100 dollar bills as well and go to town.

And TsumiBand, you don't need to respond if the comment makes you uncomfortable. I just found it interesting that a local unemployed Marxist who plays at our gaming store was overwhelmed with joy when he heard about the counterfeits, and my friends and I who have families and jobs in the business world were both frightened and disgusted by the news.

I'm going to shut this one down right now: legality is not, and never has been, a yardstick by which to measure morality. Just because something is illegal, doesn't make it wrong. Likewise, just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. As things currently stand, any position supporting the status quo is implicitly compliant with the inevitable death of legacy. Make no mistake, prices are a far greater threat to the format than counterfeits will ever be.

[2Rach]

This is rich when it's those against reprints -- the accusers in this case -- that are holding legacy ransom. I'll spell it out for you, since you don't have the horsepower to chug through the logic yourself:

1) Card price is directly linked to playability, not reprint policy. Case in point, goyf can be reprinted as many times as WOTC feels, and is still $140.
Stopped reading there. It would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact of what could happen if a lot of people think like you do.

[Higgs]

Yes, if prices were directly linked to playability Brainstorm would have been the most expensive card in Legacy. The simple fact is card prices are influenced by multiple factors and scarcity is also one them.

[Illusions]

Stopped reading there. It would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact of what could happen if a lot of people think like you do.

You're a moron if you think the reprint policy protects the value of your cards. You can't protect value if no demand exists; currently, most cards are worth fractions of a dollar, including most cards on the reserved list. Valuable cards are the exception, not the rule.

[Illusions]

Yes, if prices were directly linked to playability Brainstorm would have been the most expensive card in Legacy. The simple fact is card prices are influenced by multiple factors and scarcity is also one them.

brainstorm is a common that is only legal in legacy, and restricted in vintage. Scarcity for brainstorm doesn't even exist at this stage. Meanwhile, remand is a $15 uncommon... For most cards, scarcity is less important than their in-game use, which is why most rares ever printed fall within the $2 range, and cards like force of will end up costing $80. Demand is driven by playability more than collectibility, and without that demand, even the most restricted and sacred supply of cards would be completely worthless. Furthering this point, collectibility is also driven in part by playability; as playability and value decrease, so too does collectibility. The fact is, players are more crucial to the format's health than the price of cards, because without players, the demand collapses, and so too does everything else.

[TsumiBand]

And TsumiBand, you don't need to respond if the comment makes you uncomfortable.

Actually, you don't need to haul in unrelated information, in particular ones that are intentionally vague and then go on to make oblique comments like this:


I just found it interesting that a local unemployed Marxist who plays at our gaming store was overwhelmed with joy when he heard about the counterfeits, and my friends and I who have families and jobs in the business world were both frightened and disgusted by the news.

This is exactly what I mean. What is this, Clue? Marxism as a red herring? How is anyone supposed to get any real bickering done around here, when you're polluting the channel? Christ on a crab shell!

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'm going to shut this one down right now: legality is not, and never has been, a yardstick by which to measure morality. Just because something is illegal, doesn't make it wrong. Likewise, just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. As things currently stand, any position supporting the status quo is implicitly compliant with the inevitable death of legacy. Make no mistake, prices are a far greater threat to the format than counterfeits will ever be.

I don't know what else to say… You are in favor of stealing from WotC, screwing over the secondary market (vendors like SCG who hold tournaments I assume you play in and enjoy), and all the while reaping what you consider to be personal gain and an increase in the "greater good"… Hopefully you realize at some point that the tournaments you play in only exist because people buy packs of real Magic cards and people purchase real singles from vendors on the secondary market for this collectible card game. What you are in favor of is not only illegal, but also incredibly immoral. This is even before you begin to discuss the logic of what you said about the game collapsing because it loses players to price. Did you ever consider that the price is high because more and more players have been playing the game? If you accept that as the primary reason for the high price of cards, it is illogical for the game to die because of price, because there is an equilibrium point.

[Gheizen64]

I don't know what else to say… You are in favor of stealing from WotC, screwing over the secondary market (vendors like SCG who hold tournaments I assume you play in and enjoy), and all the while reaping what you consider to be personal gain and an increase in the "greater good"… Hopefully you realize at some point that the tournaments you play in only exist because people buy packs of real Magic cards and people purchase real singles from vendors on the secondary market for this collectible card game. What you are in favor of is not only illegal, but also incredibly immoral. This is even before you begin to discuss the logic of what you said about the game collapsing because it loses players to price. Did you ever consider that the price is high because more and more players have been playing the game? If you accept that as the primary reason for the high price of cards, it is illogical for the game to die because of price, because there is an equilibrium point.

This isn't true in the slightest. 90% of the price increases are speculatory bubbles, nothing more nothing less. Or you seriously believe that the demand for duals has increased more than 20 times compared to 10 years ago? Because if anything the old Extended + T1 playerbase was huge compared to the current Legacy + T1 playerbase.

[Patrunkenphat7]

This isn't true in the slightest. 90% of the price increases are speculatory bubbles, nothing more nothing less. Or you seriously believe that the demand for duals has increased more than 20 times compared to 10 years ago? Because if anything the old Extended + T1 playerbase was huge compared to the current Legacy + T1 playerbase.

There are tons of reasons included in why prices of cards fluctuate, but I have played Magic for a long time, and there are A LOT more people playing eternal Magic now than there were 10 years ago...

[PirateKing]

Problem is prices don't fluctuate, they just go up. Only up.

[Scott]

You feel entitled to the product because you perceive it as too expensive.

It sounds like most already have the product.

[Lt. Quattro]

Problem is prices don't fluctuate, they just go up. Only up.

The player base is also only going up which means demand keeps going up.

[PirateKing]

And supply stays at best constant. Problem.

[Darkenslight]

The player base is also only going up which means demand keeps going up.

And the minute the demand price gets too high, the value will collapse, as people have more important things to spend their $500 dollars on than four pieces of damaged cardboard. The counterfeiters, for whatever reason, are filling an underserved market. This is exactly the same principle as that behind copyright infringement - if there wasn't a market for it, it would be much less common than it is today (though that's not necessarily a discussion for here).

And to address patrunkenphat's point - the markets are showing signs of considerable stress for the essential cards, such as Useas and Force of Wills. For example, for a damaged USea, you're paying $150. And that's for a Revised version. If you want to pimp your Useas, you're looking at ~$7k for for a NM Beta set, and around $20k for a NM Alpha set. Even for Bayous and Savannahs, you're looking at ~$400 for a playset from a reputable trader. For Fetches, you're looking at an additional $200 for Strands and $350 for a set of Deltas. Brainstorm is still a 2-buck common in every set it's from, though those are much easier to find.

The point is that Wizards and Hasbro could have done something before they turned the Reserved List into the iron-clad thing it is today. They chose not to. Morality doesn't come into this; economics does. So please stop with the fallacious appeals to morality.

[CHaPuZaS]

I've been writing articles since 2006 to help people avoid counterfeit MTG cards. The new wave of chinese counterfeits means that I can help again the community by providing some insight about the counterfeits and helping people to tell appart all of these fakes. Here is my new article:

How to Distinguish the New Wave of Counterfeits, by César "CHaPuZaS" Fernández (http://evolutiongoya.com/falsificaciones.php?id_noticia=955)

It's published mainly in Spanish, though some tips are provided in English and, of course, all of the images are worldwide useful.

Hope you enjoy, and please... Don't Panic about the counterfeits! They are not as good as people believe them to be!

Enjoy!

[Gheizen64]

There are tons of reasons included in why prices of cards fluctuate, but I have played Magic for a long time, and there are A LOT more people playing eternal Magic now than there were 10 years ago...

Where do you live because here most shop are closed and the vintage scene , and after extended basically everyone stopped playing. Only limited is stil played

[Barook]

The player base is also only going up which means demand keeps going up.


And supply stays at best constant. Problem.
That's only part of the problem.

SCG has a quasi monopoly and dictates the upper price ceiling for the cards. If they rise the price, the rest of the market is going to follow suit eventually due to various reasons, including SCG and other big players cornering the market to create artificial scarcity. And then the price memory prevents the cards from going down in price.

The price increases we've seen recently only get worse and worse. C'mon, Wasteland was still 60 bucks in December and now it's already 100$ and "sold out" at SCG, meaning it's probably going to go up even further in price. Same with the 70$ increases on Volcanic Island and Underground Sea. Especially in the light of the new fake card generation and the "poor secondary market traders", those price increases are a slap in the face.

Wizards is at fault, too, due to completely ignoring demand on non-RL staples. Even LED is already 185$ on MODO with no end in sight, despite being able to reprint it there.

Some people argue that the Chinese steal money from Wizards. While they do steal their intellectual property, it's only true that Wizards potentially loses money from the reprints of non-RL staples like Tarmogoyf etc. - and we have no data how exactly fakes would kill the LGS, like many people say, especially considering how easy fakes are to spot in real person. MtG cards are a hobby, not an investment with 100% guaranteed value increase.

If Chinese fakes prevent USea from reaching 500$ at the end of the year, so be it. The secondary market is so fucked up right now that I've stopped caring. Call me when the Chinese fakes actually put a dent into this price insanity.

[(nameless one)]

Technically, WotC isn't losing money from something they vow they'd stop printing.

[Arsenal]

Technically, WotC isn't losing money from something they vow they'd stop printing.

This would maybe apply if the counterfeiters were only printing Reserved List stuff, but they're printing non-Reserved List stuff like current Standard all-star Sphinx's Revelation, so Wizards would be losing money if Timmy no longer buys a box of Return to Ravnica (hoping to rip a Sphinx's Revelation among other goodies) when he just buys a fake Sphinx's Revelation for $3.

[2Rach]

I've been writing articles since 2006 to help people avoid counterfeit MTG cards. The new wave of chinese counterfeits means that I can help again the community by providing some insight about the counterfeits and helping people to tell appart all of these fakes. Here is my new article:

How to Distinguish the New Wave of Counterfeits, by César "CHaPuZaS" Fernández (http://evolutiongoya.com/falsificaciones.php?id_noticia=955)

It's published mainly in Spanish, though some tips are provided in English and, of course, all of the images are worldwide useful.

Hope you enjoy, and please... Don't Panic about the counterfeits! They are not as good as people believe them to be!

Enjoy!
I think this very good article should be stickied for now. It's in Spanish, but all you need is a google translator add on.

[Arsenal]

I think this very good article should be stickied for now. It's in Spanish, but all you need is a google translator add on.

Nice page, although some of those tests aren't practical in a real-life setting. The average guy at a tournament won't be walking around with scientific measuring devices to verify authenticity.

[CHaPuZaS]

Nice page, although some of those tests aren't practical in a real-life setting. The average guy at a tournament won't be walking around with scientific measuring devices to verify authenticity.

Though the good news is that there exists scientific methods to distinguish between fake and real cards - I understand that some of them not on the hands of everybody -, I also explain a pair of cheap ways to tell them appart easily. Check it out! :wink:

[Illusions]

I don't know what else to say… You are in favor of stealing from WotC, screwing over the secondary market (vendors like SCG who hold tournaments I assume you play in and enjoy), and all the while reaping what you consider to be personal gain and an increase in the "greater good"… Hopefully you realize at some point that the tournaments you play in only exist because people buy packs of real Magic cards and people purchase real singles from vendors on the secondary market for this collectible card game. What you are in favor of is not only illegal, but also incredibly immoral. This is even before you begin to discuss the logic of what you said about the game collapsing because it loses players to price. Did you ever consider that the price is high because more and more players have been playing the game? If you accept that as the primary reason for the high price of cards, it is illogical for the game to die because of price, because there is an equilibrium point.

On what basis do you claim that what I'm arguing is immoral? As I previously explained, law doesn't define morality, and isn't an arbiter of right and wrong; you won't understand the subtlety of this point I'm sure, so think of it this way: just because I break the law, does not mean that what I did was immoral. Conversely, just because I obeyed or upheld the law, doesn't make what I do moral. I'm advocating the utilitarian approach here, which is absolutely moral in that it preserves the format we've all come to love. In this case, it's not even stealing, because Wizards doesn't print half the cards that we need, and take no part in the secondary market. Not to mention, part of being a moral individual means assessing the morality and views of others, and determining what is and isn't acceptable to you as a person. You clearly haven't done that, because you're happy to parrot the same hack arguments that everyone has, without doing any thinking of your own, or understanding the fundamentals at play.

As for your second point, of course prices always reach an equilibrium for any given supply and demand, which is the whole basis of what I'm saying. As I said, once SCG drops legacy, what then? When the entity that has been responsible for essentially driving this format finally pulls the plug, the supply of cards will remain the same, but their playability will collapse as the tournament scene disappears. Since playability is the major driving force behind the demand for most legacy staples (and cards in general), demand will also collapse. At that stage, people will probably try to sell out in order to get their money back, but by then it will be too late. I mean, you're fairly ignorant if you think this is an unrealistic scenario, because -- unlike counterfeits -- there are numerous well documented examples of price bubbles popping and destroying markets, going all the way back to the 1700s. Right now, the value of magic cards has completely detached from the intrinsic value of the item, meaning that what we are experiencing absolutely qualifies as a bubble; the forces driving it matter less than the limit on supply that is forcing prices ever upwards, and capping the population of legacy.

I mean, this shouldn't even be up for debate; Wizards knows this, and they've even said that the player cap is the biggest reason for not supporting legacy as the go-to non-rotating, competitive format. For anyone who wants to parrot the usual supply-demand high school economics view of things, I challenge you to explain how it's possible to have a healthy, growing market in which the supply of the commodity has been artificially and arbitrarily fixed. More to the point, I would love to see examples, because I'm reasonably certain none exist. You need both liquid supply and demand for things to stay healthy in any market, and right now, we just don't have that.

[Higgs]

Thanks very much for the article. Some of the tests may not be practical but others are, and this will be very useful for many people.

[HonorBasquiat]

The notion that the fakes aren't that good is just bogus. The article is very interesting, and there are some great photos, but honestly, during play, you can't weight, bend, or tear cards. You can't even touch your opponent's cards outside of sleeves. The only clear tell is the corners, but honestly, most players don't know about alpha corners, yet alone pay attention to them, especially if they aren't skeptical, and the cards are sleeved.

So yeah, it's easy for an expert with the right equipment to spot the fakes, but that's not practical. Judges and even stores that buy cards aren't going to start measuring, weighing and bending each card they encounter.

[MaximumC]

The notion that the fakes aren't that good is just bogus. The article is very interesting, and there are some great photos, but honestly, during play, you can't weight, bend, or tear cards. You can't even touch your opponent's cards outside of sleeves. The only clear tell is the corners, but honestly, most players don't know about alpha corners, yet alone pay attention to them, especially if they aren't skeptical, and the cards are sleeved.

So yeah, it's easy for an expert with the right equipment to spot the fakes, but that's not practical. Judges and even stores that buy cards aren't going to start measuring, weighing and bending each card they encounter.

I think that the point is not so much to catch them in a tournament setting as to avoid buying or trading for them.

[TsumiBand]

Technically, WotC isn't losing money from something they vow they'd stop printing.

Oh sure they are. You never heard of zero sum economics? Every dollar the counterfeiters make is necessarily a dollar that WotC didn't. Hell, every dollar that I spend on local beers and bike tires is money that everyone else isn't making.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Illusions]

Oh sure they are. You never heard of zero sum economics? Every dollar the counterfeiters make is necessarily a dollar that WotC didn't. Hell, every dollar that I spend on local beers and bike tires is money that everyone else isn't making.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

The RIAA and MPAA certainly have. Zero sum economics is almost as bad as the hot, salty Reaganomics currently trickling down our faces and into the carpet.

Anyway, there was something else I wanted to raise: purchasing and owning these fakes is not prohibited by US law, and for you to be prosecuted, there would need to be demonstrable evidence of intent to sell. This is covered here (http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01705.htm) in the Criminal Resources Manual, the relevant cause being in the definition of trafficking (emphasis mine):


Thus it is not a crime under this act for an individual knowingly to purchase goods bearing counterfeit marks, if the purchase is for the individual's personal use.

To be prosecuted for trafficking, there would need to demonstrable evidence that you were doing this for commercial gain, as the scope of the definition of trafficking is specifically limited to commercial activities. Note that I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice, but it seems pretty clear to me that buying a few counterfeit cards does not constitute a violation of US law, nor is it specifically immoral to do so in any way.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Unlawful and immoral are two very different ideas, one not necessarily having anything to do with the other. I will agree it's not unlawful. It's highly immoral. The fact that you don't see that but understand the legal applications and wherewithal of all this is highly suspect to me. What kind of printer do you own?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[JanoschEausH]

Though the good news is that there exists scientific methods to distinguish between fake and real cards - I understand that some of them not on the hands of everybody -, I also explain a pair of cheap ways to tell them appart easily. Check it out! :wink:

In your article you wrote about a wave of fakes that hit the european market in spring 2012. I never heard of that. What are the differences between those fakes and real cards? Did you write an article about that, which you could link to us?

[CHaPuZaS]

In your article you wrote about a wave of fakes that hit the european market in spring 2012. I never heard of that. What are the differences between those fakes and real cards? Did you write an article about that, which you could link to us?

Sure, here it is!

Sobre unas Nuevas Falsificaciones y Conspiranoias Varias, by César "CHaPuZaS" Fernández (http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/sobre-unas-nuevas-falsificaciones-y.html)

The main differences were that these fakes were better. It's weigh was pretty similar, it felt and looked more like a legit card, but in the end, those also were distinguishable.

[Illusions]

Unlawful and immoral are two very different ideas, one not necessarily having anything to do with the other. I will agree it's not unlawful. It's highly immoral. The fact that you don't see that but understand the legal applications and wherewithal of all this is highly suspect to me. What kind of printer do you own?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

How is it immoral in any way, shape, or form? You seem to recognise that legality and morality are two very different things, which is a step up from most people in this thread, but you haven't provided any basis for your argument. So on what grounds do you argue that it is somehow immoral for people to buy a few fakes to play with their mates? Because -- as I've already mentioned -- from a utilitarian perspective (a moral school of thought, fyi), obtaining these fakes for personal use is a perfectly moral thing to do.

I mean, consider that Wizards doesn't even print many cards necessary to play legacy due to the reserve list, and an unwillingness to reprint staples like Force of Will and Wasteland, and you can't even call it stealing. It's not illegal to obtain these for personal use, and the only real issue with it is that the cards are produced by a legitimate third party group that are practising copyright infringement. If your argument consists of depicting copyright infringement as immoral behaviour, that's a pretty low bar, especially given that in this case, copyright protection is actually hindering a healthy market process. This (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091014/0147596522.shtml) is a good post on the issue of copyright and morality, though there are many others out there. Here's a quote from an actual copyright lawyer of 27 years on the subject:


In terms of morality and the Valenti quote. To me, copyright is an economic right, not a moral right and does not raise moral issues. The Second Circuit made this point too, agreeing with Judge Lynch:

“Copyright and trademark are not matters of strong moral principle.
Intellectual property regimes are economic legislation based on policy
decisions that assign rights based on assessments of what legal rules will produce the greatest economic good for society as a whole.” Sarl Louis Feraud Int’l v. Viewfinder, Inc., 406 F. Supp. 2d 274, 281 (S.D.N.Y. 2005), affirmed on this point, vacated and remanded on other grounds, 489 F.3d 474, 480 n.3 (2d Cir. 2007).

Morality is used in the Copyright Wars as a way to cover up the inability to justify expansion of rights on economic grounds.

From this (http://www.volokh.com/2009/10/05/copyright-and-morals/) article.

It isn't even clear that copyright fulfils its stated purpose, which is to promote innovation, so really, the whole copyright-infringement-morality argument seems pretty damn shaky. As I've already tried to get through to people a number of times now, morality has no bearing on this discussion, and is a fall-back for those without any argument to speak of. There is nothing wrong with a few guys buying these and playing with their mates, provided they don't sell them, and don't try to trade them under the guise of them being real cards (disclosed trades should be fine, undisclosed trades would probably constitute fraud).

As for insinuating that I'm somehow involved in the production of counterfeits, don't be a child. Not only is that kind of accusation intellectually lazy, it doesn't add anything to the discussion at hand. If you find it suspicious that I make it my duty to be well informed and educated, maybe you should be playing less magic, and doing more reading.

[lordofthepit]

I am in support of reprints, but I cannot condone counterfeits. Furthermore, I feel a number of things you stated were misleading.


Card price is directly linked to playability, not reprint policy.

Playability and reprints are both parts of the supply/demand curve.


SCG is not only one of the primary vendors, they are effectively 90% of the US legacy tournament scene, and the major driving force behind its popularity as a format. Without SCG, legacy would be in very, very serious trouble.

How did you arrive at that figure of 90%? I would call it an exaggeration, but that would be giving it too much credit because I feel like you just pulled it out of your ass.

They are not 90% of the tournament scene, regardless of what metric you want to use, whether it's aggregate attendance, prize support, or whatever. SCG holds about 40 Legacy Opens each year, averaging perhaps 300 players per event, for a total of 12000 participants. One of my local game stores alone holds 50 weeklies with 30-40 players, accounting for at least 1500 players on just Monday nights alone, not even counting attendance from the larger (roughly monthly events) from that store alone, a number which by itself would already contradict your assertion of "90% of the US legacy tournament scene". There are dozens of other stores in the area that hold Legacy events, to say nothing of other large stores across the country.


At some stage -- I don't know when -- SCG will drop legacy as its Sunday format.

This is complete conjecture, and while it may happen, SCG has strengthened its commitment to Legacy in the last year by replacing all non-Legacy Sunday Opens with Legacy Sunday Opens for 2014. No one but the employees at SCG can know with certainty what their future plans are, but simply asserting something to match your assumptions does not make your case more compelling.


I'm not sure how many of you noticed, but this is already starting to happen, with numerous players on the larger message boards asking why SCG doesn't hold modern tournaments.

Many players have asked why SCG doesn't hold Modern tournaments on various forums, as well as on SCG's feedback page itself. This is not surprising, since a very vocal subset of players were convinced that SCG was going to abandon Legacy support in favor of Modern two years ago, and they considered the double Standard, Team Sealed, etc. Sunday Opens as part of a progression towards that end. When SCG announced that they were going back to Standard/Legacy Opens only, these players commented on the announcement page.

Even more players have applauded SCG for further committing to Legacy.


I'm going to shut this one down right now: legality is not, and never has been, a yardstick by which to measure morality. Just because something is illegal, doesn't make it wrong. Likewise, just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

The production, sale, and use (in tournaments) of counterfeits are both illegal and immoral.

[Illusions]

Playability and reprints are both parts of the supply/demand curve.

Price is determined using both supply and demand, and you can't have a price without some form of demand. The number of cards in circulation constitutes the supply, and the playability of a card constitutes the vast bulk of its demand, with collectibility coming in at a distant second. If you have a vast supply, even the most highly sought after card will be cheap, but this isn't what we're talking about here. The cards we're discussing are limited in supply, and their demand comes from the fact that they are the best cards at what they do, in what is currently the premier competitive format in the game. Without playability, most cards are effectively worthless, as most every card in the game outside of a small percentage actually is. I honestly don't understand how people can be refuting this point, because it's basic -- we're talking about the exception when we discuss expensive cards, because the vast majority that have ever been printed are barely worth more than the cardboard they're printed on. They're not expensive because they're not playable.

Case in point: strip mine is practically worthless, while wasteland is now $100. If strip mine were playable in legacy, it would be a 4-of in most decks. Since it's banned, it has no playability, and thus no demand. It's effectively worthless because it isn't legal in any relevant format.


How did you arrive at that figure of 90%? I would call it an exaggeration, but that would be giving it too much credit because I feel like you just pulled it out of your ass.

They are not 90% of the tournament scene, regardless of what metric you want to use, whether it's aggregate attendance, prize support, or whatever. SCG holds about 40 Legacy Opens each year, averaging perhaps 300 players per event, for a total of 12000 participants. One of my local game stores alone holds 50 weeklies with 30-40 players, accounting for at least 1500 players on just Monday nights alone, not even counting attendance from the larger (roughly monthly events) from that store alone, a number which by itself would already contradict your assertion of "90% of the US legacy tournament scene". There are dozens of other stores in the area that hold Legacy events, to say nothing of other large stores across the country.

You're discounting the effect that providing prize money and streamed tournaments has on the scene. Without high profile tournaments and coverage, legacy would lose relevance very, very fast. I mean, how many people give a shit about vintage now? I bet the number is staggering, dozens even. Without SCG, legacy would be in a lot of trouble, and I don't think anybody who's being honest with themselves can really deny that.


This is complete conjecture, and while it may happen, SCG has strengthened its commitment to Legacy in the last year by replacing all non-Legacy Sunday Opens with Legacy Sunday Opens for 2014. No one but the employees at SCG can know with certainty what their future plans are, but simply asserting something to match your assumptions does not make your case more compelling.

I'm well aware of SCG's commitment, I'm saying it won't be the norm for the long term. In fact I specifically chose the words "as early as next year", because SCG has made a commitment to legacy for 2014. But don't kid yourself that they would stick with the format if modern proved to be a more profitable venture. Modern likely already has a larger playerbase, and if it stays on its current trajectory, will eventually overtake legacy through sheer power of numbers. According to the latest figures (http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/20-years-magic-gathering-still-going-strong-not-just-middle-8C11044163), there are an estimated 12 million people playing the game now, and roughly 300,000 of each revised dual in existence. That's 75,000 playsets for a total of 750,000 across all ten duals. How long until modern goes past this figure? There's a glut of new players that have just experienced (or are about to experience) their first rotation, and clamouring for fetches to be reprinted so that they can get into modern. If even 10% of all players buy in (and they will, modern is being pushed very, very hard by Wizards), they'll already have cruised past the upper limit of what legacy is able to support. With consistent reprints, it's pretty inconceivable that modern won't replace legacy in the long term.


Many players have asked why SCG doesn't hold Modern tournaments on various forums, as well as on SCG's feedback page itself. This is not surprising, since a very vocal subset of players were convinced that SCG was going to abandon Legacy support in favor of Modern two years ago, and they considered the double Standard, Team Sealed, etc. Sunday Opens as part of a progression towards that end. When SCG announced that they were going back to Standard/Legacy Opens only, these players commented on the announcement page.

I'm not talking about older players, I'm talking about new players. Once demand reaches critical mass, SCG will absolutely replace legacy. If you can't see this, you're fooling yourself.


Even more players have applauded SCG for further committing to Legacy.

And I'm one of them. You don't seem to realise that I'm on the side of legacy in all of this.


The production, sale, and use (in tournaments) of counterfeits are both illegal and immoral.

See my previous post, this has nothing to do with morality.

[TsumiBand]

The RIAA and MPAA certainly have. Zero sum economics is almost as bad as the hot, salty Reaganomics currently trickling down our faces and into the carpet.

I hope everyone could tell I was being a snarky butthole.

Zero-sum econ is one of the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard of. Money I spend at the bar is not money Best Buy 'lost'. Trust me, that was always beer money.

[lordofthepit]

Price is determined using both supply and demand, and you can't have a price without some form of demand. The number of cards in circulation constitutes the supply, and the playability of a card constitutes the vast bulk of its demand, with collectibility coming in at a distant second. If you have a vast supply, even the most highly sought after card will be cheap, but this isn't what we're talking about here. The cards we're discussing are limited in supply, and their demand comes from the fact that they are the best cards at what they do, in what is currently the premier competitive format in the game. Without playability, most cards are effectively worthless, as most every card in the game outside of a small percentage actually is. I honestly don't understand how people can be refuting this point, because it's basic -- we're talking about the exception when we discuss expensive cards, because the vast majority that have ever been printed are barely worth more than the cardboard they're printed on. They're not expensive because they're not playable.

Case in point: strip mine is practically worthless, while wasteland is now $100. If strip mine were playable in legacy, it would be a 4-of in most decks. Since it's banned, it has no playability, and thus no demand. It's effectively worthless because it isn't legal in any relevant format.



You're discounting the effect that providing prize money and streamed tournaments has on the scene. Without high profile tournaments and coverage, legacy would lose relevance very, very fast. I mean, how many people give a shit about vintage now? I bet the number is staggering, dozens even. Without SCG, legacy would be in a lot of trouble, and I don't think anybody who's being honest with themselves can really deny that.



I'm well aware of SCG's commitment, I'm saying it won't be the norm for the long term. In fact I specifically chose the words "as early as next year", because SCG has made a commitment to legacy for 2014. But don't kid yourself that they would stick with the format if modern proved to be a more profitable venture. Modern likely already has a larger playerbase, and if it stays on its current trajectory, will eventually overtake legacy through sheer power of numbers. According to the latest figures (http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/20-years-magic-gathering-still-going-strong-not-just-middle-8C11044163), there are an estimated 12 million people playing the game now, and roughly 300,000 of each revised dual in existence. That's 75,000 playsets for a total of 750,000 across all ten duals. How long until modern goes past this figure? There's a glut of new players that have just experienced (or are about to experience) their first rotation, and clamouring for fetches to be reprinted so that they can get into modern. If even 10% of all players buy in (and they will, modern is being pushed very, very hard by Wizards), they'll already have cruised past the upper limit of what legacy is able to support. With consistent reprints, it's pretty inconceivable that modern won't replace legacy in the long term.



I'm not talking about older players, I'm talking about new players. Once demand reaches critical mass, SCG will absolutely replace legacy. If you can't see this, you're fooling yourself.



And I'm one of them. You don't seem to realise that I'm on the side of legacy in all of this.



See my previous post, this has nothing to do with morality.


I appreciate your response. I do agree with some of what you're saying, but I disagree with the extent of the conclusions you are reaching, and it is because of that disagreement that we have different opinions on Legacy's ability to survive without SCG. (I think Legacy would be significantly hampered but still continue at the LGS scene.)

[JanoschEausH]

Sure, here it is!

Sobre unas Nuevas Falsificaciones y Conspiranoias Varias, by César "CHaPuZaS" Fernández (http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/sobre-unas-nuevas-falsificaciones-y.html)

The main differences were that these fakes were better. It's weigh was pretty similar, it felt and looked more like a legit card, but in the end, those also were distinguishable.

Thank you very much! I have one question: Do the 2012 Fakes pass the Light-Test? For me comparing size + light test seems to be the most adequate method right now.

[the Thin White Duke]

I hope everyone could tell I was being a snarky butthole.

Zero-sum econ is one of the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard of. Money I spend at the bar is not money Best Buy 'lost'. Trust me, that was always beer money.

+1 TsumiBand

I don't want this to turn into a "discussion" on the idiocy that is zero-sum economics (why do you kids even go to college these days? why go into such debt for the privilege of attending these zombie factories?) Anyway...

Can someone please explain how I'm stealing $$ from Wizards if I'm purchasing out of print cards from a counterfeiter? Last I knew, Wizards does not sell singles directly.
And why are we sooo concerned with Wizard's bottom line???? They didn't make Magic! Barack Obama and the federal government made Magic! Hey Richard Garfield, you didn't make Magic!! Your government did. How dare you make a profit!!
(that's being snarky.)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Isn't Magic WotC's? They may do whatever they want to do, e.g. not print the old cards. Isnt' it their right?

And... yes, maybe they lose money by not printing boosters with original duals, but otoh, maybe the fact that they don't sell boosters with original duals is the reason why their boosters with Call of the Herd, Goblin Piledriver, Skullclamp, Horizon Canopy and Emrakul sold/sell. I think that WotC knows better than us what brings them money.

But I still think that RL is stupidity and that the reprints should have been plenty.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I think the most important question is if the cards are sleeve playable. If they're practically undetectable from across the table while playing a game, that's as good as they have to be for people to want them.

[Barook]

+1 TsumiBand

I don't want this to turn into a "discussion" on the idiocy that is zero-sum economics (why do you kids even go to college these days? why go into such debt for the privilege of attending these zombie factories?) Anyway...

Can someone please explain how I'm stealing $$ from Wizards if I'm purchasing out of print cards from a counterfeiter? Last I knew, Wizards does not sell singles directly.
And why are we sooo concerned with Wizard's bottom line???? They didn't make Magic! Barack Obama and the federal government made Magic! Hey Richard Garfield, you didn't make Magic!! Your government did. How dare you make a profit!!
(that's being snarky.)
You don't "steal" money from Wizards, you "steal" money from secondary market traders. But by that twisted logic, secondary market traders also "steal" money from you when they jack up the staple prices for no reason.

[Stephan/]

chaos;788270']I think the most important question is if the cards are sleeve playable. If they're practically undetectable from across the table while playing a game, that's as good as they have to be for people to want them.

Why is this so important? :eyebrow:

I really don't care whether my opponent is playing proxies or not (even in tournaments) - MtG shouldn't be a status symbol. I just don't want to get scammed when someone tries to sell me fakes as real ones.
Why do people want to buy close to indistinguishable fakes/proxies for "personal use at home" when they can just use pencil and paper? What's the intension?

[Zombie]

Why is this so important? :eyebrow:

I really don't care whether my opponent is playing proxies or not (even in tournaments) - MtG shouldn't be a status symbol. I just don't want to get scammed when someone tries to sell me fakes as real ones.
Why do people want to buy close to indistinguishable fakes/proxies for "personal use at home" when they can just use pencil and paper? What's the intension?

Because pencil and paper / marker'd Plains proxies look absolutely hideous. Though a good printer and some patience get good slip-in-front-of-bad-cards style proxies you may not even notice as fake at a glance, so they don't ruin the play experience. Much better when you can just glance at a card to identify it, makes playing the game less stressful.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

My buddies and I proxy decks literally all the time for various reasons, mainly for play testing reasons. We use my (or our public library) printer and use magiccard.info proxies to do so. I've never wanted better proxies. I put basic lands in sleeves and slide the cut-outs in over them. Works fine. I can proxy 3 full 75 card lists with one set of ink cartridges, the quality is very high and the printer is run of the mill. If you want good proxies just do it that way. No need to reward illegitimate business practices when there are other, just as rewarding ways to reach the same end: non-tournament legal proxies. I see no reason for wanting more than that.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Stinky-Dinkins]

So on what grounds do you argue that it is somehow immoral for people to buy a few fakes to play with their mates? Because -- as I've already mentioned -- from a utilitarian perspective (a moral school of thought, fyi), obtaining these fakes for personal use is a perfectly moral thing to do.


Oh fucking please. Not one person on Earth is paying those prices (plus international shipping costs) to use these as proxies to play with his buddies. You could just write "Jace TMS" in marker over a basic land, or print out a copy from your printer if you wanted it to have rules text look pretty, if you wanted proxies to use at a table with your buddies... Which is what everyone who uses proxies in this way does. These are only being used for two purposes:

1: To resell them to unsuspecting people at exorbitant markups under the pretense of them being legitimate.

2: To use them for tournament play under the pretense that they're legitimate.

To pretend as though anyone will use these as proxies for tabletop play with their friends is ludicrous. I'm glad these fakes are so easily detectable, fucking obnoxious.

[Illusions]

Oh fucking please. Not one person on Earth is paying those prices (plus international shipping costs) to use these as proxies to play with his buddies. You could just write "Jace TMS" in marker over a basic land, or print out a copy from your printer if you wanted it to have rules text look pretty, if you wanted proxies to use at a table with your buddies... Which is what everyone who uses proxies in this way does. These are only being used for two purposes:

1: To resell them to unsuspecting people at exorbitant markups under the pretense of them being legitimate.

2: To use them for tournament play under the pretense that they're legitimate.

To pretend as though anyone will use these as proxies for tabletop play with their friends is ludicrous. I'm glad these fakes are so easily detectable, fucking obnoxious.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you knew everybody's intentions and motivations for buying these cards. Are you God or Santa Claus? Also, why do you care where your opponent got his or her wizard-paper from if you get to play the game against more people, more regularly? The only obnoxious thing about it is your attitude, which is based almost entirely on unfounded conjecture. If your playing experience is that connected to the worth of your cardboard, it might be an idea to get out of legacy while the going is good. SCG will get out at some stage, and the prices will all come tumbling down. It's gravity. Counterfeits are not what you should be afraid of.


I appreciate your response. I do agree with some of what you're saying, but I disagree with the extent of the conclusions you are reaching, and it is because of that disagreement that we have different opinions on Legacy's ability to survive without SCG. (I think Legacy would be significantly hampered but still continue at the LGS scene.)

Thanks for being civil about it, and I understand your reservations. I'm also in favour of reprints, but at this stage, my deep fear is that WotC were dumb enough to settle out of court on a lawsuit regarding the reserved list. I think it's the only rational explanation for why they haven't reprinted the cards, and why their reasons for doing so are unable to be disclosed to the players. I never bought into the whole promissory estoppel thing, but if they settled on a previous lawsuit, it would provide a precedent they would need to honour in the event that the list were repealed.

Now, I'm not saying this is right, but it's the simplest explanation that makes sense to me. What's scarier is that if it is right, then that's effectively it; reprints are not coming, end of story. I don't think anyone seriously believes that the format can sustain itself on $200 lands, and even the fact that it's gotten this far is remarkable. Nevertheless, it's completely unsustainable in the long term, and no one is benefiting from it, not even the players who want eternally high prices. And unlike counterfeits, these prices genuinely do scare me, because I believe they do have the potential to kill the format.

[mcfarland]

Oh fucking please. Not one person on Earth is paying those prices (plus international shipping costs) to use these as proxies to play with his buddies. You could just write "Jace TMS" in marker over a basic land, or print out a copy from your printer if you wanted it to have rules text look pretty, if you wanted proxies to use at a table with your buddies... Which is what everyone who uses proxies in this way does. These are only being used for two purposes:

1: To resell them to unsuspecting people at exorbitant markups under the pretense of them being legitimate.

2: To use them for tournament play under the pretense that they're legitimate.

To pretend as though anyone will use these as proxies for tabletop play with their friends is ludicrous. I'm glad these fakes are so easily detectable, fucking obnoxious.

Calm down, cowboy. It's not ludicrous. I'm doing exactly what you describe.

I've printed my own "high-quality" proxies to use casually for years, and I'm not the only person that does. I own a high-end printer, and I don't want to play with a sharpie'd basic because it takes me out of the experience of playing with my buddies - I'm a fan of how cards look aesthetically, but I'm not doing to drop $250 on another Underground for my third EDH deck.

Printing my own proxies was a lot of work - from scanning/finding really hi-res images to acquiring card stock that is decent enough to feel undetectable when shuffling in sleeves. I didn't print with backs because I had no reason to do so, but the fronts are pretty much perfect from more than a few inches away. They took a lot of time (and a little money) to make them the way I wanted them to be. I enjoy the results, but I'd quickly pass up on the labor and time if I could buy comparable proxies for a few dollars.

Yes, for tabletop play with my friends. Or more accurately, casual games at my LGS on my way home from work. Not everyone who has/wants/uses fake cards is a villain.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Are you God or Santa Claus?


I'm Santa Claus.



Also, why do you care where your opponent got his or her wizard-paper from if you get to play the game against more people, more regularly? .

Did I say I cared? I personally couldn't care less if people use proxies - I do all the time. I print them out for free and tape them to basic lands.... I wouldn't even care if they were allowed in tournament play. If someone can't afford, say, a Jace TMS but needs it for a deck, I wouldn't mind at all if they used a proxy instead - I say go for it. I was just listing the two primary ways in which these proxies will be used, to pretend as though the main usage of these fakes will be people using them as pretty proxies to play with their buddies is fucking absurd. The people that will pay those prices to get fakes shipped in from China so they can use them as attractive proxies will account for about .00000001% of these sales, the vast majority of people aren't going to pay those prices just for "fake" cards in kitchen table games when they can make high quality proxies for free using their printers.

I do, however, have a problem with scumbags reselling these fakes as legitimate cards for hugely inflated prices - and people will absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, do exactly that. Hell, some of the people playing with these in tournaments might not even know they're playing with fakes... if they're not knowledgeable enough about corner shape and printing patterns. Every sale that website makes supports that practice whether you want to acknowledge it or not - if you buy 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards so you can use them casually with your buddies you are funding the business that also just sent 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards to the guy who will sell them to some unfortunate sucker under the pretense that they're legitimate. I'm wicked sorry that I offended your delicate sensibilities when I called these Chinese fakes obnoxious, but they are.

[Illusions]

Did I say I cared? I personally couldn't care less if people use proxies - I do all the time. I print them out for free and tape them to basic lands.... I wouldn't even care if they were allowed in tournament play. If someone can't afford, say, a Jace TMS but needs it for a deck, I wouldn't mind at all if they used a proxy instead - I say go for it. I was just listing the two primary ways in which these proxies will be used, to pretend as though the main usage of these fakes will be people using them as pretty proxies to play with their buddies is fucking absurd. The people that will pay those prices to get fakes shipped in from China so they can use them as attractive proxies will account for about .00000001% of these sales, the vast majority of people aren't going to pay those prices just for "fake" cards in kitchen table games when they can make high quality proxies for free using their printers.

Again, you have no evidence for this assertion. The game already has numerous legal proxies in the form of championship decks, and non-tournament-legal force of wills go for $20 as we speak. It's not inconceivable that people would pay more for cards that don't have a gaudy gold border and different back. In fact, I would estimate that the vast majority of sales will go to players who have some form of disposable income (enough to play modern) but are unable to justify buying into legacy. If they want to play these in their EDH decks, or play legacy with their mates, that's actually a good thing for those respective formats.


I do, however, have a problem with scumbags reselling these fakes as legitimate cards for hugely inflated prices - and people will absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, do exactly that. Hell, some of the people playing with these in tournaments might not even know they're playing with fakes... if they're not knowledgeable enough about corner shape and printing patterns. Every sale that website makes supports that practice whether you want to acknowledge it or not - if you buy 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards so you can use them casually with your buddies you are funding the business that also just sent 100 dollars worth of counterfeit cards to the guy who will sell them to some unfortunate sucker under the pretense that they're legitimate. I'm wicked sorry that I offended your delicate sensibilities when I called these Chinese fakes obnoxious, but they are.

And... so do I? I'm not condoning the fact that some people will sell these as legitimate (though I don't have a problem with them being sold as fully-disclosed fakes), but it isn't my place to protect idiots from themselves. You should always know what it is that you're buying, and if you want the genuine article, you should know how to distinguish it from fakes, especially if you're considering paying $200 per land. This applies to anything, not just cards. I mean, your whole argument is effectively conjecture regarding the intentions of the people buying these cards, and that a few gullible people might inadvertently purchase them, thinking them the real thing. Sure, it's probable there are a few dickheads out there that will do this, but if it's a choice between more accessibility, players, and games, and preventing a few people from making poor decisions, I'll choose the former every time. Even then, if the cards get so good that they're effectively indistinguishable from the real thing, then there's no need to worry, because at that stage, they are the real thing.

[Dzra]

Because -- as I've already mentioned -- from a utilitarian perspective (a moral school of thought, fyi), obtaining these fakes for personal use is a perfectly moral thing to do.

Honestly, I didn't read most of what you wrote. I sort of have a headache and am not in the mood for a lot of what I suspect is rationalizing (I apologize if I'm incorrect). However, I will say that buying counterfeits is not actually moral according to a utilitarian ideal. You are buying cheap fakes for your own personal benefit. Not only does this not contribute to the group as a whole in any way, but it actively hurts the group. Buying counterfeits directly results in the printing of more counterfeits; the eventual result of which is that Magic the Gathering can no longer be supported by Wizards, SCG, and local gaming stores. Buying counterfeits benefits the buyer (short-term at least) in that they've gotten cards for cheap but is at the expense of everyone else who plays Magic. That is not utilitarianism.

I suppose you might prattle on about how counterfeits bring down the price of cards and how cheaper cards are better for everyone, kumbaya. That might be reasonable if that were the actual endgame. Unfortunately, the real endgame of excellent counterfeits permeating the market is that Magic disappears because it ceases to be profitable for Hasbro and gaming stores to support.

[Illusions]

Honestly, I didn't read most of what you wrote. I sort of have a headache and am not in the mood for a lot of what I suspect is rationalizing (I apologize if I'm incorrect). However, I will say that buying counterfeits is not actually moral according to a utilitarian ideal. You are buying cheap fakes for your own personal benefit. Not only does this not contribute to the group as a whole in any way, but it actively hurts the group. Buying counterfeits directly results in the printing of more counterfeits; the eventual result of which is that Magic the Gathering can no longer be supported by Wizards, SCG, and local gaming stores. Buying counterfeits benefits the buyer (short-term at least) in that they've gotten cards for cheap but is at the expense of everyone else who plays Magic. That is not utilitarianism.

I suppose you might prattle on about how counterfeits bring down the price of cards and how cheaper cards are better for everyone, kumbaya. That might be reasonable if that were the actual endgame. Unfortunately, the real endgame of excellent counterfeits permeating the market is that Magic disappears because it ceases to be profitable for Hasbro and gaming stores to support.

1. Doing something for your own personal benefit doesn't preclude the possibility of it being beneficial to the group. Given that economics is about the distribution of resources, if counterfeits improve the ability of the market to allocate resources to consumers (so long as the fake is a effective substitute for the real thing), then the net result is beneficial. Given that we're talking about a minority of cards that Wizards no longer prints, these counterfeits have the capacity to expand the market. It would have been better had they done it themselves, but here we are; the market is sorting it out.

2. There's no evidence to suggest that this will kill magic; I can't think of a single example of counterfeits causing the kind of market crash people are afraid of in this thread. Limited cannot be touched by definition, and is one of the biggest formats, if not the biggest. New cards take time and money to get right, especially with new anti-counterfeiting measures coming in this year. Meanwhile, the counterfeiters can't even get 20 year old cards right, using public domain fonts. Modern, legacy, and EDH will be affected, but Wizards makes no direct profit from the secondary market anyway. Your LGS might be affected, though I don't know of any LGS that doesn't do the bulk of its trade in limited and standard anyway.

3. If we don't get new cards into circulation, legacy is stuffed as a format. The price bubble will eventually burst when SCG moves over to modern, which will almost certainly happen at some stage, unless something goes catastrophically wrong with modern within the next year or two. When that happens, we lose the bulk of the tournament scene, card value, and the format becomes an oddity played in small groups at your LGS.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You are possibly correct, but more likely delusional. I've been playing t1.5/legacy since before FoW rotated out of extended and while the price of cards considered staples in this format have risen in value over the years, this particular format has never been more popular, despite the price to play it. I think the format's cost is a sign of its health, not its demise.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[nevilshute]

1. Doing something for your own personal benefit doesn't preclude the possibility of it being beneficial to the group. Given that economics is about the distribution of resources, if counterfeits improve the ability of the market to allocate resources to consumers (so long as the fake is a effective substitute for the real thing), then the net result is beneficial. Given that we're talking about a minority of cards that Wizards no longer prints, these counterfeits have the capacity to expand the market. It would have been better had they done it themselves, but here we are; the market is sorting it out.

2. There's no evidence to suggest that this will kill magic; I can't think of a single example of counterfeits causing the kind of market crash people are afraid of in this thread. Limited cannot be touched by definition, and is one of the biggest formats, if not the biggest. New cards take time and money to get right, especially with new anti-counterfeiting measures coming in this year. Meanwhile, the counterfeiters can't even get 20 year old cards right, using public domain fonts. Modern, legacy, and EDH will be affected, but Wizards makes no direct profit from the secondary market anyway. Your LGS might be affected, though I don't know of any LGS that doesn't do the bulk of its trade in limited and standard anyway.

3. If we don't get new cards into circulation, legacy is stuffed as a format. The price bubble will eventually burst when SCG moves over to modern, which will almost certainly happen at some stage, unless something goes catastrophically wrong with modern within the next year or two. When that happens, we lose the bulk of the tournament scene, card value, and the format becomes an oddity played in small groups at your LGS.

If counterfeits become successful (ie near impossible to detect) and widespread it could very well ultimately mean the end of magic. I think many people tend to forget that what made mtg the remarkable success that it is today is that sweet fusion of collectability and a great game. Intrindically tied to the concept of collectability is scarcity and value.

Part of what makes players buy new product is the (qasi-illusory) notion that what they are buying has the potential to become valuable and could be sold at a profit. If it becomes known that every year hundreds of thousands of counterfeits will be pumped into the market at a six month delay from when wotc release a new set (due to them needing time to get the newest cards right) then people will lose the incentive to buy new product which will eventually mean no more new magic cards.

Apologies for typos, writing from my phone.

[HonorBasquiat]

The Case For Passable Proxies

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is my opinion, my case, and defense of passable proxies. These proxies are great, and I see no ethical problem with them provided people aren't selling or trading them as real cards. Unfortunately, there are some people who will do this. But players who are just using the proxies for gameplay shouldn't be shamed or judged.

The proxies are good because they allow players to have a good paper Magic the Gathering experience without having to spend a small fortune. These proxies also don't hinder or affect gameplay unlike handwritten or low quality proxies (crappy proxies encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint at cards. These cards often have inferior resolution, or no picture at all, which makes it harder to identify and recognize certain cards. All of these things slow down game play).

Passable proxies eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that has nothing to do with gameplay. They allow players that don't have thousands of dollars to play magic still have a good paper magic the gathering experience and compete with players that invest a lot of money in cards. If Jasmine has a $2500 American Control deck, and I have a $3000 Stoneblade deck, but it is made from passable proxies, I only have to pay $100 but I can still have competitive pick me up games with Jasmine at a LGS without having to spend thousands of dollars. This is a good thing because it makes a game about competition rather than money.

The proxies don't hurt wizards at all because they don't print these cards anymore and they don't sell singles anymore. The proxies won't kill the secondary market for real cards because some players like supporting wizards of the coast and their LGS. Many players like having real cards. Some players don't like buying cards online. Some players don't like the fake cards, because even though they are passable, they still are distinguishable, etc.

[Lemnear]

The Case For Passable Proxies

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is my opinion, my case, and defense of passable proxies. These proxies are great, and I see no ethical problem with them provided people aren't selling or trading them as real cards. Unfortunately, there are some people who will do this. But players who are just using the proxies for gameplay shouldn't be shamed or judged.

The proxies are good because they allow players to have a good paper Magic the Gathering experience without having to spend a small fortune. These proxies also don't hinder or affect gameplay unlike handwritten or low quality proxies (crappy proxies encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint at cards. These cards often have inferior resolution, or no picture at all, which makes it harder to identify and recognize certain cards. All of these things slow down game play).

Passable proxies eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that has nothing to do with gameplay. They allow players that don't have thousands of dollars to play magic still have a good paper magic the gathering experience and compete with players that invest a lot of money in cards. If Jasmine has a $2500 American Control deck, and I have a $3000 Stoneblade deck, but it is made from passable proxies, I only have to pay $100 but I can still have competitive pick me up games with Jasmine at a LGS without having to spend thousands of dollars. This is a good thing because it makes a game about competition rather than money.

The proxies don't hurt wizards at all because they don't print these cards anymore and they don't sell singles anymore. The proxies won't kill the secondary market for real cards because some players like supporting wizards of the coast and their LGS. Many players like having real cards. Some players don't like buying cards online. Some players don't like the fake cards, because even though they are passable, they still are distinguishable, etc.

Dood, if you want to Proxy up a deck for playing, Inform your store and playgroup and make some with a 40$ Printer. We are cool with that locally. The only reason form making indistinguishable fakes is ripping off people or cheat on sanctioned event judges while you have marked cards in your deck as those cards feel different from the rest

[Illusions]

If counterfeits become successful (ie near impossible to detect) and widespread it could very well ultimately mean the end of magic. I think many people tend to forget that what made mtg the remarkable success that it is today us that sweet fusion of collectability and a great game. Intrindically tied to the concept of collectability is scarcity and value.

Part of what makes players buy new product is the (illusory) notion that what they are buying has the potential to become valuable and could be sold at a profit. If it becomes known that every year hundreds of thousands of counterfeits will be pumped into the market at a six month delay from when wotc release a new set (due to them needing time to get the newest cards right) then people will lose the incentive to buy new product which will eventually mean no more new magic cards.

Apologies for typos, writing from my phone.

This would be true if the duals were designed as collectibles, but the revised duals specifically weren't. That's the reason for them having a white border, because it indicated that their print run was effectively unlimited, and they were intended for use as game pieces. Black-bordered duals from alpha and beta were limited, and intended as collector's items because they were aesthetically superior. This is also the reason there are so many duals in existence; duals are not rare, but the supply is strained relative to the player base. This is exacerbated by the fact that speculators have bought in, because the reserved list means the price of duals never actually fluctuates, and only ever goes up.

Secondly, many players buy new cards because they're new cards. New limited formats will always have appeal, and standard has rotation built into it to ensure that people keep buying. That's the whole point of these systems. People won't stop buying cards, because they're the only source of new playables, and you can always verify that the card is real. Even with perfect counterfeits, there is still a lag between when new cards come out, and how soon counterfeiters can produce a passable copy. There's both time and cost involved. Pulling a sweet card is always good, but it's not the primary motivation for cracking packs.


You are possibly correct, but more likely delusional. I've been playing t1.5/legacy since before FoW rotated out of extended and while the price of cards considered staples in this format have risen in value over the years, this particular format has never been more popular, despite the price to play it. I think the format's cost is a sign of its health, not its demise.

I won't discount the possibility. At the end of the day, time will reveal all.

The problem with your line of thinking is that uncontrolled price rises are almost never a sign of economic health, and are instead an indication of a bubble. When bubbles pop, you do get the kind of economic collapse people here are afraid of. Incidentally, the presence of counterfeits is often a sign that there is a bubble, because the price of the commodity has detached from its inherent value, allowing counterfeiters space to operate within the market. As I mentioned earlier, the cost of buying into a format directly correlates with the number of people that play that format. That alone should be cause for alarm if the price of playing legacy keeps climbing ever higher. Eventually, a point will be reached where -- at best -- the population stays constant. More likely, it gradually decreases. If SCG ever moves away from legacy, the prize money dries up, the tournament scene takes a massive hit, people sell out, and card values collapse. Even Wizards can see that legacy right now is unsustainable without new cards.

[Barook]

I think the format's cost is a sign of its health, not its demise.
That's only partly true. Yes, prices have risen due to higher demand.

However, there are also the big dealers and speculators who drive prices sky-high for their own profit. SCG isn't providing Opens because they're nice guys, but cuttthroat dealers who abuse their quasi-monopoly to dictate the price of the secondary market. They've clearly shown that they're willing to drop Legacy in a heartbeat if something more profitable comes along (i.e. Modern). It's only a matter of time now since prices become more and more unsustainable with the rising prices. The old "corner the market and jack up the price" tactic has a limit before people say "Fuck it!" and we're probably going to see it soon, probably at the end of this year or next year with the current pace. I wouldn't be suprised if Underground Seas hit 500$ at the end of the year.

If a goddamn website bug causes Cabal Therapy to double in price and it stays high afterwards, you know there' something terrible wrong with the ecosystem.

Edit:
http://www.abugames.com/images/mediaproducts/generalmerchandise/ABUG2002.jpg

[HonorBasquiat]

The only reason form making indistinguishable fakes is ripping off people or cheat on sanctioned event judges while you have marked cards in your deck as those cards feel different from the rest

Not true. Reread what I wrote.

If you actually read what I'd wrote, you'd learn about other reasons why people want to play with passable proxies (they want an indistinguishable gameplay experience without spending thousands of dollars, they don't want to slow down the game with crappy proxies, they play in play circles where crappy proxies are frowned upon, etc.)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I read it and I call bullshit. I don't understand why you think that printed cut outs that are identical to the cards they are proxies of slid in front of basic lands in a set of 3.00 ultra-pro sleeves are less acceptable than non-destinguishable fakes that quite possibly threaten the entire tournament structure and even the game itself. Stupidity incarnate.

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[Lemnear]

I read it and I call bullshit. I don't understand why you think that printed cut outs that are identical to the cards they are proxies of slid in front of basic lands in a set of 3.00 ultra-pro sleeves are less acceptable than non-destinguishable fakes that quite possibly threaten the entire tournament structure and even the game itself. Stupidity incarnate.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

+1

[HonorBasquiat]

I read it and I call bullshit. I don't understand why you think that printed cut outs that are identical to the cards they are proxies of slid in front of basic lands in a set of 3.00 ultra-pro sleeves are less acceptable than non-destinguishable fakes that quite possibly threaten the entire tournament structure and even the game itself. Stupidity incarnate.

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Because home printed proxies are crappy and have inferior resolution, quality, and coloring. They encourage players to double take and gawk at cards which slows down and hinders game play. There are also white knights and haters who on principle refuse to play against proxies because they don't look like real cards.

Explain to me how passable proxies threaten the entire tournament structure when they don't affect game play at all. Be specific too. People aren't going to stop buying real cards just because there are counterfeits. You certainly aren't. People never stopped buying Gucci bags, Lacoste shirts and iPods.

[CabalTherapy]

Not true. Reread what I wrote.

If you actually read what I'd wrote, you'd learn about other reasons why people want to play with passable proxies (they want an indistinguishable gameplay experience without spending thousands of dollars, they don't want to slow down the game with crappy proxies, they play in play circles where crappy proxies are frowned upon, etc.)

Play pauper.

[Lemnear]

Because home printed proxies are crappy and have inferior resolution, quality, and coloring. They encourage players to double take and gawk at cards which slows down and hinders game play. There are also white knights and haters who on principle refuse to play against proxies because they don't look like real cards.

Explain to me how passable proxies threaten the entire tournament structure when they don't affect game play at all. Be specific too. People aren't going to stop buying real cards just because there are counterfeits. You certainly aren't. People never stopped buying Gucci bags, Lacoste shirts and iPods.

Oh I missed that fake Gucci bags and Lacoste shirts aren't sold to naive people ... wait ... what? They are?! Duh!

I only hate people that make proxies that are easily distinguishable within sleeves and use that for cheating. If you have some douches in your playgroup bitching around if someone wants to try deck x in a local 4-rounder before buying into the deck at last, get a new group.

I have no clue why coloring should hinder gameplay. That's a bunch of crap you posted here...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Wtf. Are you kidding me? Are you not familiar with inkjet? I'm done arguing about this. I'll post pictures this evening of my home printed proxies off a 4-in-1inkjet printer you could get at any best buy from over 2 years ago and then you can take your crappy, inferior resolution, double-take inducing arguments and try to not look like a fool to the entire magic community. Pathetic.

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[swoop]

So the price is still 25ish $ for 56 cards?

What cards do they offer? Do they accept paypal?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

And then there's this guy...

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[Lemnear]

And then there's this guy...

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FFVWEQnSM

[lordofthepit]

So the price is still 25ish $ for 56 cards?

What cards do they offer? Do they accept paypal?

They offer free identity theft services, and they'll accept whatever form of payment you want to provide them.

[nevilshute]

This would be true if the duals were designed as collectibles, but the revised duals specifically weren't. That's the reason for them having a white border, because it indicated that their print run was effectively unlimited, and they were intended for use as game pieces. Black-bordered duals from alpha and beta were limited, and intended as collector's items because they were aesthetically superior. This is also the reason there are so many duals in existence; duals are not rare, but the supply is strained relative to the player base. This is exacerbated by the fact that speculators have bought in, because the reserved list means the price of duals never actually fluctuates, and only ever goes up.

Secondly, many players buy new cards because they're new cards. New limited formats will always have appeal, and standard has rotation built into it to ensure that people keep buying. That's the whole point of these systems. People won't stop buying cards, because they're the only source of new playables, and you can always verify that the card is real. Even with perfect counterfeits, there is still a lag between when new cards come out, and how soon counterfeiters can produce a passable copy. There's both time and cost involved. Pulling a sweet card is always good, but it's not the primary motivation for cracking packs.


The way I see it, it doesn't matter what the duals were 'intended' as. Something might be intended to be a collector's item within MTG while something else is less so intended, but every magic card is in principle a collectable item. Magic cards are BOTH game pieces AND collectable trinkets.

I will agree with you that, in a vacuum, the few legacy staples that are on the reserved list being forged won't hurt wotc's bottom line or hurt MTG. But the problem is, that something like this doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even if the counterfeiters only forged cards on the reserved list, the mere fact that these forgeries exist and can be mass produced will be detrimental to MTG as a whole because it will drive a fear into the heart of the player base, because how can you know they are only forging reserved list cards? If they indeed have the tools to do this then why on earth would they stop there when Tarmogoyfs, Dark Confidants and other non-reserve list cards are worth so much that it would be tantamount to printing their own money.


If this truth gets to settle and fester: "you will NEVER know if ANY card you own, except if you actually pulled it out of the boosterpack yourself, is real or fake", then I'd say that would kill the game eventually. Up until now everyone probably will agree that in theory forgeries can exist that are so good that it would be impossible to know the difference. But the pivotal difference is the scale. This has never had to go beyond theorizing because the whole MTG world works under the assumption that counterfeits of the highest quality would never be able to be mass produced. We trust that WOTC would never allow this to happen, either by making their product so relatively hard to fake or by taking legal action whenever something like this props up.

Once this (admittedly illusory) notion crumbles then it fundamentally changes everything. In principle we could all just write the names of the cards we want to play with on basic lands with a magic marker. If the appeal of MTG was ONLY about the game as a bunch of interactions and a cerebral exercise then the aesthetics and collectability wouldn't matter at all. No, collectability and the illusion of value matters tremendously. The whole secondary economy is a huge part of MTG and that would effectively disappear if the above mentioned truth becomes so. Would MTG continue beyond that? Well it depends on whether you believe people would continue to pay $5 for a pack of 15 random games pieces that have no value beyond their function in the game. I don't think it would.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

did I get something wrong or is this a Game with is desinged to be played and not to bec collected as enshurence for your wellfare.

And pls try to understand that the guys you are protecting, the secound markets sellers are the ones who are actually threaten the Game.
they are the ones who are holding back cards and creating a price increase to get more money out of it and only
support the format because they can make money with it.
They are the ones who are creating the buble by keeping the supply low artificially.
This is not near to even the thought of a healthy market and we all have senn what happens when this lasts long engough, you maybe
know Detroit and I think you all know the property crisis.

the counterfeights are not a threat they are a chance to wake up and see what went wrong and that we maybe should overthinking
the attitude towards our cards and the game we are playing.
We have to get back to a healthy market were the difficulties to enter it are not a actually a reason why this format is in Danger.
So I sugest we all should thinking over the prices of our cards again and maybe take the counterfeights as a guideline to reavaluate
the prices for our cards byourself and then establish a new player to player trade organisation to avoid the high prices
of SCG and other retailers. In europe we allready have some.

all in all we have to rethink what we want from this game and if it is playing and not earining money, if it is overthink if this is the right place to do,
then we should try to decrease the price whith all tools aviable and therefore recreate a healthy market with actually can grow.
Because then we will have more tournements and fun as now, because more people will join the market.

Ah last word we are talking about ecomoics so moral is not a thing you should even concider to mention here.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[Entromancer]

Fake Legacy cards will cause sales on Theros/Born of the Gods to tank. They will also be responsible for the sharp decline in attendance at Standard events.

If people reselling their fakes becomes problematic, I expect stores with excellent reputations will inspect any cards that they purchase second hand. So places like Star City Games really stand to profit from the counterfeits, while the counterfeits will allow newbies to break into the Legacy format. On MTGS, Galspanic has posted a set of the counterfeits along with a set of real cards. I had to ask him which of the sets were the real cards, because they really do look good if you're not running the usual tests on them.

[Lemnear]

Fake Legacy cards will cause sales on Theros/Born of the Gods to tank. They will also be responsible for the sharp decline in attendance at Standard events.

Another argument in this thread that doesn't make any sense for me. How does the shitload of fake Duals and big price Legacy staples have anything to do with Theros being another block full of EDH jank and people (including standard-players) being Bored of the Gods?

[Teveshszat]

Hello,


They will also be responsible for the sharp decline in attendance at Standard events.

I highly doubt that to be honest. Because for me the fun to play and my desire to win are not conected with any concern about
fake cards. Even if my popponent clearly plays with them I will not say anything because the important part in the game are the
strategy and interactions players create and not the actual price of the cards.

If you are refering to the Standard format then all I have to say is you are wrong. Nobody will ever quit standard because of the fear for
counterfeights. the format is just to fast that something like that can be profitable for anyone. The reason is the rotaion of the cards
and therefore the resulting price variations which even can occur overnight.


while the counterfeits will allow newbies to break into the Legacy format.

this is a desireble develpoment because, we want newbies( New players) for our format to enshure it growth and
become stable even without the SCG support for tournements.

Only with a growing and healhty market we can enshure that the cards will have a reasonable pricing. Which will lead
to a stable scence and enshures that we have tournements and other competitive things even without the SCG support.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[HonorBasquiat]

You white knights don't make any sense.

If I buy fake passable proxies to play with, and I don't sell or trade them as real cards, who is being harmed? How does it affect you? And why do you care? Stop being so judgmental.

[Lemnear]

You white knights don't make any sense.

If I buy fake passable proxies to play with, and I don't sell or trade them as real cards, who is being harmed? How does it affect you? And why do you care? Stop being so judgmental.

Who's harmed? What about you getting banned for cheating with detectable, marked, fake cards in a tournament? There is a reason Alpha cards are a problem in tourneys as well as partial foiling of Key-components.

[Darkenslight]

Oh I missed that fake Gucci bags and Lacoste shirts aren't sold to naive people ... wait ... what? They are?! Duh!

I only hate people that make proxies that are easily distinguishable within sleeves and use that for cheating. If you have some douches in your playgroup bitching around if someone wants to try deck x in a local 4-rounder before buying into the deck at last, get a new group.

I have no clue why coloring should hinder gameplay. That's a bunch of crap you posted here...

You missed the numberous psychological stuides that show that people who willingly buy counterfeits are more likely to save up for the real thing...unless there's none left. Which is idiotic economic strategy unless you're intentionally trying to sabotage something. See, for example, early electric cars as an example. This isn't an easy thing to accept sometimes, and I understand that. But I have issues labelling those who do buy these cards as thieves and frauds without an intent to deceive.

Hopefully, that makes as much sense as it did within my head.

[HonorBasquiat]

Who's harmed? What about you getting banned for cheating with detectable, marked, fake cards in a tournament? There is a reason Alpha cards are a problem in tourneys as well as partial foiling of Key-components.

What about me not using passable proxies in tournaments. Or what about me using the cards in tournaments but not marking the cards or sleeves. In that situation, gameplay isn't affected or hindered at all. Neither is the tournament. I still have to pay an entry fee to compete. I just don't need to also spend well over $1000 on 75 pieces of cardboard. By the way, people mark real cards and sleeves in tournaments too.

Seriously guys, stop being so judgmental. This doesn't hurt you. It doesn't affect you. It doesn't harm anyone provided people aren't selling or trading the cards as real. Judge those people all you want, but not people who are using the cards for gameplay.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What about me not using passable proxies in tournaments. Or what about me using the cards in tournaments but not marking the cards or sleeves. In that situation, gameplay isn't affected or hindered at all. Neither is the tournament. I still have to pay an entry fee to compete. I just don't need to also spend well over $1000 on 75 pieces of cardboard. By the way, people mark real cards and sleeves in tournaments too.

Seriously guys, stop being so judgmental. This doesn't hurt you. It doesn't affect you. It doesn't harm anyone provided people aren't selling or trading the cards as real. Judge those people all you want, but not people who are using the cards for gameplay.

This is harming me. Due to the falsificators actively prickling the bubble, there may not be enough time to sell my cards before the named bubble bursts.
I don't wanna lose my money just because some dudes have printer, those money were hard-earned. I hadn't been sitting on my boxes full of sexy stuff for fifteen years just to see it tank in value.

[HonorBasquiat]

This is harming me. Due to the falsificators actively prickling the bubble, there may not be enough time to sell my cards before the named bubble bursts.
I don't wanna lose my money just because some dudes have printer, those money were hard-earned. I hadn't been sitting on my boxes full of sexy stuff for fifteen years just to see it tank in value.

You are just making a rash assumption. We don't know that these fakes will cause card values to dramatically decrease. There are already thousands of them and values haven't changed. People will always want real cards. There are collectors, there are people that enjoy supporting Wizards, there are people who enjoy supporting LGS's, etc. Your cardboard will still be worth more than mine.

I really don't get why people are so judgmental though. If I don't sell or trade the proxies as real, what am I doing that is wrong?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If I don't sell or trade the proxies as real, what am I doing that is wrong?

Look, isn't the purpose of proxies to have the thing for cheap? and, if everybody starts to use proxies, who would buy expensive originals? Even if the number of people that wants the real product drops by just ten percent, it may lower the prices... and the value of my cardboard.
Do not want.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

1.) We do know that they will if a large enough number of consumers feel as you feel and act on it.

2.) You may not be doing anything wrong, but the fact that the opportunity is there for more than just you, the greater the risk. Eventually, it will create a problem for the game. It must be taken seriously or at some point it will create problems that won't be able to be fixed.

http://magiccards.info/

Go here and scroll down and look under the picture. It will let you print proxies. They are to size. As long as your printer isn't from the 80's and you aren't out of ink, you will have no issues.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

You missed the numberous psychological stuides that show that people who willingly buy counterfeits are more likely to save up for the real thing...unless there's none left. Which is idiotic economic strategy unless you're intentionally trying to sabotage something. See, for example, early electric cars as an example. This isn't an easy thing to accept sometimes, and I understand that. But I have issues labelling those who do buy these cards as thieves and frauds without an intent to deceive.

Hopefully, that makes as much sense as it did within my head.

That sure explains the fact that the US Vintage scene is a near pure proxy-based community for a decade and that people that won power and shit immediately put it on eBay (as I know a few people who did).


What about me not using passable proxies in tournaments. Or what about me using the cards in tournaments but not marking the cards or sleeves. In that situation, gameplay isn't affected or hindered at all. Neither is the tournament. I still have to pay an entry fee to compete. I just don't need to also spend well over $1000 on 75 pieces of cardboard. By the way, people mark real cards and sleeves in tournaments too.

Seriously guys, stop being so judgmental. This doesn't hurt you. It doesn't affect you. It doesn't harm anyone provided people aren't selling or trading the cards as real. Judge those people all you want, but not people who are using the cards for gameplay.

Playing cards that are thicker/thinner/etc. due to not being official products are considered "marked" by me.

Dood, peeps tried to cheat on me with proxies in the past within tournament play AND trade ... for me that IS an issue I take dead serious

[HonorBasquiat]

Look, isn't the purpose of proxies to have the thing for cheap? and, if everybody starts to use proxies, who would buy expensive originals? Even if the number of people that wants the real product drops by just ten percent, it may lower the prices... and the value of my cardboard.
Do not want.

This is just more baseless assumptions. Who would want to buy expensive originals? Well, for starters you would. As would the other white knights in this thread that insist on the harms and problems with passable proxies.

All I want is to be able to have a good paper magic the gathering experience without spending a small fortune so I can have competitive games against players with good cards at my LGS or with my friends in casual pick me up games. It really is victim-less. Counterfeiting doesn't kill industry. Yeah, I might be able to play with a $3000 Stoneblade deck for $100 now (which will mean I actually can play Stoneblade now), but it's not like that hurts anyone. It certainly doesn't hurt Wizards.

[ESG]

If I buy fake passable proxies to play with, and I don't sell or trade them as real cards, who is being harmed? How does it affect you? And why do you care? Stop being so judgmental.

It matters because you would still be giving counterfeiters your money. Even if you didn't try to unload the cards at some point -- which I highly doubt, given the lack of scruples you've displayed so far -- plenty of other people would. Propping up an industry that creates fake cards is bad for everyone.


All I want is to be able to have a good paper magic the gathering experience without spending a small fortune so I can have competitive games against players with good cards at my LGS or with my friends in casual pick me up games. It really is victim-less. Counterfeiting doesn't kill industry. Yeah, I might be able to play with a $3000 Stoneblade deck for $100 now (which will mean I actually can play Stoneblade now), but it's not like that hurts anyone. It certainly doesn't hurt Wizards.

Who are you? If it's a casual game, you can make proxies. If it's a non-sanctioned tournament and you all want to use proxies, you can do that. You just can't pass the proxies off as real. What are you failing to understand about that?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What are you, 12? Get a job, stop buying so much weed, take a money management class and start being an actual functional member of society. by the way, I'm a blue mage, not a white knight, and I actually play esper blade, and I have actually spent the money to do so. I had a lot of the cards already because I have played the game for 15 years, however, I also recognize good cards when I see them and made some wise and opportunistic purchases that helped me get to this point.

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[prateta]

What are you, 12? Get a job, stop buying so much weed, take a money management class and start being an actual functional member of society. by the way, I'm a blue mage, not a white knight, and I actually play esper blade, and I have actually spent the money to do so. I had a lot of the cards already because I have played the game for 15 years, however, I also recognize good cards when I see them and made some wise and opportunistic purchases that helped me get to this point.

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Dude you must be crazy. So you are basically saying that people who don't wanna spend $3000 for a deck ain't functional members of the society? And they should take money management classes to learn how to save money for cards? Not sure if trolling or braindead.

This thread seriously needs lock. All important information got lost in this kind of spam. Now there are only "blue mages aka members of society" left, only those chosen ones who don't smoke weed and passed money management class.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If that is what you took away from my post, I don't believe any kind of explanation from myself will better help you understand what I'm saying here. Also, "ain't" isn't a word and you should never start a sentence with a conjunction such as "and."

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[prateta]

If that is what you took away from my post, I don't believe any kind of explanation from myself will better help you understand what I'm saying here. Also, "ain't" isn't a word and you should never start a sentence with a conjunction such as "and."

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIdIqbv7SPo

Please teach me more, valuable member of the society. I am not pro-counterfeit, but the level of stupidity this thread has achieved makes me wanna buy billion of them and start giving them to homeless.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You are currently one of the main contributors of stupidity at this point. If you would just stop posting, this thread would clean up. Also, Wikipedia is literally the worst online source ever. JuCo professors will trash your English papers for that, for shit's sake.

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[Lemnear]

The only stupidity is claiming that enjoyable Gaming in your LGS NEEDS high quality fakes which other subjects WILL use to either rip off people (or for cheating if those differ in their thickness)

[prateta]

You are currently one of the main contributors of stupidity at this point. If you would just stop posting, this thread would clean up. Also, Wikipedia is literally the worst online source ever. JuCo professors will trash your English papers for that, for shit's sake.

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I'm glad you are smart enough to know Wikipedia ain't reliable source of information. However it's sad you deny existence of the word ain't. Like... I know... people say it, native speakers, so it doesn't exist and it's not a word. Makes sense, you from 'murica? I'm not even going to waste more time linking you to other websites, I guess you can google it in your free time for yourself.

This thread was tragic even before I started my hate-posts towards your person. I usually don't feel the need to do that, but your elitist and arrogant posts just turned me on. It's the same story all over again for last 30 pages. Geez, we all know you fear for your precious collections. But guess what, nobody cares, go whine on MTGS and leave this post for factual information (good luck finding it now in this mess).

[prateta]

The only stupidity is claiming that enjoyable Gaming in your LGS NEEDS high quality fakes which other subjects WILL use to either rip off people (or for cheating if those differ in their thickness)

Maybe if there were less spam in this thread, this discussion wouldn't have taken place at all. As has been posted many times, the fakes are bad. If you weren't lobotomized recently, you won't buy them while trading in person. No need to panic at all.

[Lemnear]

Maybe if there were less spam in this thread, this discussion wouldn't have taken place at all. As has been posted many times, the fakes are bad. If you weren't lobotomized recently, you won't buy them while trading in person. No need to panic at all.

I just don't want to get those fakes into circulation and end up in innocent teenagers hands which would get in Troubles at some point if they play it in tournaments or caught trading fakes, therefore I want to prevent those manufacturers from getting any Financial Motivation to create better fakes

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Lol it's not an elitist attitude to buy cards actually made by the company that created the game. I do agree this thread needs locked, if only to stop me from having to read your nonsensical spewings. Also, no one is panicking, but rather vehemently disagreeing with you and your ilk who continually argue against well understood macro-economics principles that printing fakes (even poor quality ones) and distributing them on a global level (which they are) is bad for any product and any legitimate company.

QAPC.

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[prateta]

I just don't want to get those fakes into circulation and end up in innocent teenagers hands which would get in Troubles at some point if they play it in tournaments or caught trading fakes, therefore I want to prevent those manufacturers from getting any Financial Motivation to create better fakes

I understand, but there is nothing you can do about it. The prices are high, the demand is growing and the chinese are unstoppable. Not even Apple and such companies were able to stop them counterfeiting their products, WoTC stands no chance.

The only way to prevent people from buying counterfeits (as soon as they are indistinguishable) is the reprint way. WoTC will have to reprint high dollar cards, or those dollars will go straight to Hong Kong. It's that simple.

[Lemnear]

I understand, but there is nothing you can do about it. The prices are high, the demand is growing and the chinese are unstoppable. Not even Apple and such companies were able to stop them counterfeiting their products, WoTC stands no chance.

The only way to prevent people from buying counterfeits (as soon as they are indistinguishable) is the reprint way. WoTC will have to reprint high dollar cards, or those dollars will go straight to Hong Kong. It's that simple.

Here i can fully agree. WotC should move their asses and reprint Legacy staples in Standard legal Sets to finally make the Legacy community buy boosters or create more prepacked products for that crowd. WotC can do a shitload of stuff to make counterfeinting unattractive and creating a holographic Symbol for the upcoming EDH jank is NOT the way to do.

They just can continue the hidden treasures from zendikar

[Entromancer]

Here i can fully agree. WotC should move their asses and reprint Legacy staples in Standard legal Sets to finally make the Legacy community buy boosters or create more prepacked products for that crowd. WotC can do a shitload of stuff to make counterfeinting unattractive and creating a holographic Symbol for the upcoming EDH jank is NOT the way to do.

They just can continue the hidden treasures from zendikar

I was gone when Zendikar hit; did they package the older cards 1 per booster pack? That would be a nice distribution model for the newbies. I can sort of see where Basq is coming from with his position on the proxies: he/she would rather use a fake that's a close enough simulation to the real card than use something printed from magiccardsinfo that would look fake.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The fact is exactly that, though: they ARE fake. If they don't look fake, the term proxy stops and the term counterfeit begins. Jesus.

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[Barook]

They just can continue the hidden treasures from zendikar
The RL staples were just bought from SCG and other big secondary market retailers, though. They don't bring new cards into circulation with that unless they actually reprint stuff.

Maybe their current sets would be more bearable if they actually contained something of worth.

[HonorBasquiat]

It matters because you would still be giving counterfeiters your money. Even if you didn't try to unload the cards at some point -- which I highly doubt, given the lack of scruples you've displayed so far -- plenty of other people would. Propping up an industry that creates fake cards is bad for everyone.



Who are you? If it's a casual game, you can make proxies. If it's a non-sanctioned tournament and you all want to use proxies, you can do that. You just can't pass the proxies off as real. What are you failing to understand about that?

Really personally attacking my character? No, I'm not going to dupe people. That's sleazy. I wouldn't necessarily have to give counterfeiters my money if I bought the cards second hand. And even if I did, big deal, Wal Mart is evil, so is Nike, but millions of people shop at their stores. Are you going to judge them too.

If I pass proxies off as real, provided I'm not selling or trading them, it doesn't matter. It has NOTHING to do with gameplay. This is about being able to have a good paper MTG experience without having to spend thousands of dollars. Don't be petty because I can have just as much fun as you can without spending thousands. And no, playing with crappy unpassable proxies isn't as fun because the paper MTG experience doesn't feel the same. If I thought I'd have as much fun doing that, I wouldn't buy passable proxies in the first place.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play with proxies off the site I provided on this thread just earlier today and my play experience has never felt less fun because it was printed on regular paper instead of cardstock. Your reasons are what's petty. As for attacking your character, I don't see much there to begin with. This is not about whether you do or don't pass the fakes off as real, it's the fact that you could. You don't want to spend thousands, but some of us have. If you had or do in the future and someone decides to undermine your investment by wanting cheap fakes that threaten your hard work by spreading them worldwide, maybe then you will have the ability to understand what you are currently condoning. Until then, you sir, are 'Murica. Whining about not having things you want instantly and at your prices. Save some money. Buy things you want, but earn them. You will take better care of them and have higher self-respect, and possibly be more respected by others in the magic community.

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[ESG]

Really personally attacking my character? No, I'm not going to dupe people. That's sleazy. I wouldn't necessarily have to give counterfeiters my money if I bought the cards second hand. And even if I did, big deal, Wal Mart is evil, so is Nike, but millions of people shop at their stores. Are you going to judge them too.

If I pass proxies off as real, provided I'm not selling or trading them, it doesn't matter. It has NOTHING to do with gameplay. This is about being able to have a good paper MTG experience without having to spend thousands of dollars. Don't be petty because I can have just as much fun as you can without spending thousands. And no, playing with crappy unpassable proxies isn't as fun because the paper MTG experience doesn't feel the same. If I thought I'd have as much fun doing that, I wouldn't buy passable proxies in the first place.

So you'll be buying the glossy fakes or the matte fakes?

You have no character. You want a $3,000 deck for free, and you want it to be tournament-legal. You can't be helped. Please quit Magic now.

[Lemnear]

So you'll be buying the glossy fakes or the matte fakes?

You have no character. You want a $3,000 deck for free, and you want it to be tournament-legal. You can't be helped. Please quit Magic now.

Just for stating the obvious: 3000$ decks aren't helping the format grow. Neither does killing the collectible aspect via mass reprints or a fake-flooded market.

Legacy Masters ... damnit WotC!

[HonorBasquiat]

So you'll be buying the glossy fakes or the matte fakes?

You have no character. You want a $3,000 deck for free, and you want it to be tournament-legal. You can't be helped. Please quit Magic now.

Please let's stop the personal attacks. I want to be able to play a game and have the game play and skill matter, not the check book of the players. I want a good paper mtg experience without spending thousands because spending thousands shouldn't determine who wins and loses games.

Whether you win or lose against a 3000 dollar stoneblade deck or a 100 dollar passable version, as far as the game play is concerned the differences are arbitrary and irrelevant.

If you spent 3000 dollars on a deck, you still have it. And your deck is still valuable. Counterfeiting isn't new. Gucci bags and babe Ruth cards are still with thousands even though they have been counterfeited heavily.

Proxies that are passable eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that is based on wealth, not skill or game effort.

[Julian23]

Proxies that are passable eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that is based on wealth, not skill or game effort.

I see your point and God knows I'd love to see everyone build a Legacy deck for 500€. But I feel heavily obliged to correct you on that on competitive level, the combinaton of skill and variance are the only barrier to actually being good. It's not like you could suddenly become successful once you picked up a decent deck. Actually, that's the kind of reasoning that is holding a lot of people back.

But honestly, there's just way too much black/white thinking and reasoning here. Hardly anybody here wants cards to diminish in value, so people should stop crafting steaw mans.

[davelin]

Please let's stop the personal attacks. I want to be able to play a game and have the game play and skill matter, not the check book of the players. I want a good paper mtg experience without spending thousands because spending thousands shouldn't determine who wins and loses games.

Whether you win or lose against a 3000 dollar stoneblade deck or a 100 dollar passable version, as far as the game play is concerned the differences are arbitrary and irrelevant.

If you spent 3000 dollars on a deck, you still have it. And your deck is still valuable. Counterfeiting isn't new. Gucci bags and babe Ruth cards are still with thousands even though they have been counterfeited heavily.

Proxies that are passable eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that is based on wealth, not skill or game effort.

Sure there are many who probably share that sentiment, that to be able to play competitive Magic doesn't require taking another mortgage out. However it's not the reality so wholly supporting illegal endeavors to get there doesn't seem quite right.

[Stephan/]

What about me not using passable proxies in tournaments. Or what about me using the cards in tournaments but not marking the cards or sleeves. In that situation, gameplay isn't affected or hindered at all. Neither is the tournament. I still have to pay an entry fee to compete. I just don't need to also spend well over $1000 on 75 pieces of cardboard. By the way, people mark real cards and sleeves in tournaments too.


^^ is this the "personal use for kitchen table"?

[from Cairo]

Please let's stop the personal attacks. I want to be able to play a game and have the game play and skill matter, not the check book of the players. I want a good paper mtg experience without spending thousands because spending thousands shouldn't determine who wins and loses games.

The investment in one's deck has always been part of the game. There are formats with less intimidating entry barriers available - Limited, Standard. One can print out paper proxies to enjoy kitchen table magic and playtesting of any format. Or play another game of skill that allows you to buy all necessary pieces in one cheap package - poker, online strategy games, etc.


Whether you win or lose against a 3000 dollar stoneblade deck or a 100 dollar passable version, as far as the game play is concerned the differences are arbitrary and irrelevant.

Except that the player playing a proxy deck is cheating. I don't have a problem playtesting against a proxied version of a deck or even local casual events allowing proxies, but in a major tournament setting where everyone else has come to grips with the cost entry barrier of playing the format and ponied up their $1000-$3000 to play, it is unfair to be using fake cards. IE your cost of entry into a SCG Open series is $140 where a legitimate players' is $2040 - in the case that either of you take first your gain is 1614% where the legitimate player's is 18%. Granted this is just displaying initial buy in and first event entry, but the concept carries over - the legitimate player decides to change their splash color, picks up a few duals and staples to change their deck around +~$500; a proxies player does the same +~$50. This undermines the resources and work that a legitimate player is putting into their deck construction.

I don't see how you can put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been supporting the game and buying licensed cards and not see how they would be upset by passable fakes.

[ESG]

I want to be able to play a game and have the game play and skill matter, not the check book of the players. I want a good paper mtg experience without spending thousands because spending thousands shouldn't determine who wins and loses games.

It does matter, as Julian said. For people who have impossibly small budgets -- and I've never met a gamer for whom Legacy was truly unaffordable -- there are plenty of ways to enjoy sanctioned Magic. You can draft or play in Sealed events. You can play in cheaper formats. The prices for MTGO are different, cheaper in many cases. And obviously you can play whatever you want for non-sanctioned events, or for Cube, or for other casual events.

What I get from your posts is selfishness. You want an expensive Legacy deck but don't want to pay for it. You want it to be tournament-legal. As far as I can see, you joined The Source simply to stir up trouble.

[porcupinetreeman]

1. This thread is about Chinese fakes, not about the reserved list.
2. This is a "trading" card game. Some cards are more valuable than others.
3. Don't bother discussing the reserved list, they will never get rid of it.

[Lord Seth]

Just for stating the obvious: 3000$ decks aren't helping the format grow. Neither does killing the collectible aspect via mass reprints or a fake-flooded market.
Mass reprints do zilch to kill the collectible aspects because they don't make anything less collectible. I know I keep bringing this up, but I'll do it again: Do you know how much it costs to get a copy of Shakespeare's plays? Nothing. You can look them up on the Internet. But let's suppose you want a physical copy. You know how much that will cost? The Oxford Shakespeare is about $25. Now, do you know how much original copies of The First Folio (the first collection of Shakespeare's plays) cost? Millions of dollars. Because they're genuine collectibles. The fact there's twenty zillion copies of Shakespeare's plays floating around or the fact that you can get them for really cheap isn't hurting them because their value comes from their collectibility, not their usability. No one thinks to themselves that they want to sit down and read some Shakespeare, then go and try to get a copy of The First Folio to do so.

If a mass reprint kills a card's value, it isn't because it hurt the collectible aspect. It's because that card wasn't really a collectible to begin with, and its high price came from its usability.

[HonorBasquiat]

It doesn't make sense to say that I should have to play a format I enjoy less or I find inferior, like pauper or limited, because I don't have a big check book. That has nothing to do with game play.

Game play should be the factor in any competition, casual or formal. Not arbitrary barriers to entry. You can pretend it matters, but it's just irrelevant. It doesn't matter if I'm playing with a 1000 dollar deck, or a 10 deck, as long as they look and function the same, I still beat you or you still beat me.

You haven't explained how passable proxies affect the game play. You haven't who is being harmed. All I'm hearing is baseless speculation. Your cards aren't going to be worthless overnight, and it's petty to be upset because other players are able to have the same game play experience without spending as much money. It doesn't affect you.

[Dzra]

If you actually read what I'd wrote, you'd learn about other reasons why people want to play with passable proxies (they want an indistinguishable gameplay experience without spending thousands of dollars, they don't want to slow down the game with crappy proxies, they play in play circles where crappy proxies are frowned upon, etc.)

As the following four posters have stated...


I don't understand why you think that printed cut outs that are identical to the cards they are proxies of slid in front of basic lands in a set of 3.00 ultra-pro sleeves are less acceptable than non-destinguishable fakes that quite possibly threaten the entire tournament structure and even the game itself.

The only stupidity is claiming that enjoyable Gaming in your LGS NEEDS high quality fakes.

What I get from your posts is selfishness. You want an expensive Legacy deck but don't want to pay for it. You want it to be tournament-legal.

I don't see how you can put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been supporting the game and buying licensed cards and not see how they would be upset by passable fakes.

One of the local game stores I go to allows 12 proxies. No one has a problem with that or else they wouldn't play there. The proxies aren't always the greatest, but they are passable for testing and learning purposes. Usually, once the player has determined that they actually like the deck, they work to actually buy the real cards.

Most home printers have enough resolution to produce very good proxies. If your printer isn't very good, you can take a thumb drive with proxy images to FedEx and print a ton of proxies for less than a couple dollars. Their resolution is fine. The only problem would be that you cannot pass them off as real cards.

HonorBasquiat, there is only one reason to buy counterfeits, and that is because they are almost indistinguishable from the real thing. Don't come up in here and try to be all poor pitiful me who can't even afford to play Legacy ever in a million years. You want something, but you don't want to pay for it. Again, by buying counterfeits you personally are donating money to people who are contributing to the failure of Magic. It's that simple. Tell it like it is, "I want Magic cards today but I want them cheap and I don't really care what happens to your cards and I don't care what happens to the game a year from now or in ten years. I just want my cheap cards now."


Now, do you know how much original copies of The First Folio (the first collection of Shakespeare's plays) cost? Millions of dollars. Because they're genuine collectibles.

I don't understand your point. While I'm not familiar with The First Folio, I would imagine that indistinguishable forgeries are impossible to make. Anyone who seriously considers spending millions of dollars will have the tools and resources to verify that they are not purchasing a fake. The average Magic player, and especially new players, do not have the resources or experience to distinguish between very good counterfeits.


Dood, peeps tried to cheat on me with proxies in the past within tournament play AND trade ... for me that IS an issue I take dead serious

I also have some experience with this, having accidentally traded for fake cards. Looking back on it now, it's laughable that I would have ever believed them to be real cards, but let's not forget that these counterfeits hurt new and inexperienced players the most.


WotC should move their asses and reprint Legacy staples in Standard legal Sets to finally make the Legacy community buy boosters or create more prepacked products for that crowd. WotC can do a shitload of stuff to make counterfeinting unattractive

I agree. The ball is very much in Wizard's hands. Now that the cat is out of the bag, they should really be working hard to find a good way to reprint old expensive cards. Counterfeits threaten to undermine collectibility like reprints never could.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It effects me because I did scrimp and save to make the purchases. I don't have a big check book but I've done what I had to do to play a deck I like in a format that I enjoy. There have been many good arguments made in this thread against your foolish lines of thought. Just because you call them baseless doesn't actually mean that they are. You won't admit to being incorrect in any capacity even though it's clear to most that you are at best uneducated on matters such as these. Ignorance isn't becoming of anyone, and that includes you. These pieces of cardstock are around 20 years old. That's pretty damn old for paper. Lots have been destroyed, and others are in the process of being just that. I have in the past paid as little as 17 dollars per trop. Tarmogoyf was under 4 dollars for over a week upon release. I paid less than 9 each for all 8 of my SFM's. I bought the pre con from kamigawa that had jitte. Its my assertion that it's your fault for not recognizing the playability of these cards when they were affordable and buying them before they spiked due to proven playability and/or time lapse. It's pay to play. Stop whining like my 7 yr old daughter (you are actually worse); pay up or get out.

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[Lemnear]

Mass reprints do zilch to kill the collectible aspects because they don't make anything less collectible. I know I keep bringing this up, but I'll do it again: Do you know how much it costs to get a copy of Shakespeare's plays? Nothing. You can look them up on the Internet. But let's suppose you want a physical copy. You know how much that will cost? The Oxford Shakespeare is about $25. Now, do you know how much original copies of The First Folio (the first collection of Shakespeare's plays) cost? Millions of dollars. Because they're genuine collectibles. The fact there's twenty zillion copies of Shakespeare's plays floating around or the fact that you can get them for really cheap isn't hurting them because their value comes from their collectibility, not their usability. No one thinks to themselves that they want to sit down and read some Shakespeare, then go and try to get a copy of The First Folio to do so.

If a mass reprint kills a card's value, it isn't because it hurt the collectible aspect. It's because that card wasn't really a collectible to begin with, and its high price came from its usability.

I feel the topic/idea here is that there are a million poststamps but every player should own a Blue Mauritius because they prefer collecting old poststamps.

We are talking about formats and not revised, FBB and Beta Duals.

[Lemnear]

I also have some experience with this, having accidentally traded for fake cards. Looking back on it now, it's laughable that I would have ever believed them to be real cards, but let's not forget that these counterfeits hurt new and inexperienced players the most.

Pretty much what I wrote:


I just don't want to get those fakes into circulation and end up in innocent teenagers hands which would get in Troubles at some point if they play it in tournaments or caught trading fakes, therefore I want to prevent those manufacturers from getting any Financial Motivation to create better fakes

[HonorBasquiat]

It effects me because I did scrimp and save to make the purchases. I don't have a big check book but I've done what I had to do to play a deck I like in a format that I enjoy. There have been many good arguments made in this thread against your foolish lines of thought. Just because you call them baseless doesn't actually mean that they are. You won't admit to being incorrect in any capacity even though it's clear to most that you are at best uneducated on matters such as these. Ignorance isn't becoming of anyone, and that includes you. These pieces of cardstock are around 20 years old. That's pretty damn old for paper. Lots have been destroyed, and others are in the process of being just that. I have in the past paid as little as 17 dollars per trop. Tarmogoyf was under 4 dollars for over a week upon release. I paid less than 9 each for all 8 of my SFM's. I bought the pre con from kamigawa that had jitte. Its my assertion that it's your fault for not recognizing the playability of these cards when they were affordable and buying them before they spiked due to proven playability and/or time lapse. It's pay to play. Stop whining like my 7 yr old daughter (you are actually worse); pay up or get out.

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None of what you just said has anything to do with game play. Good for you, you got your cards for a reasonable price. Do you want a cookie? Why shouldn't I be able to play with you? Because I'm too poor to? Or I don't want save for years to buy a deck I'm only going to play a couple times a week?

Explain the harms of using the cards provided they aren't being sold or traded as real cards.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The harms? That's already been done, you just refuse to acknowledge them as reasonable and accurate. Also, I don't need a cookie; I have a fully completed, half-pimped esperblade list. This is a trading card game, so trade. You don't need a banker's budget to accumulate playable staples that way.

How often you play is your decision.

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[HonorBasquiat]

The harms? That's already been done, you just refuse to acknowledge them as reasonable and accurate. Also, I don't need a cookie; I have a fully completed, half-pimped esperblade list. This is a trading card game, so trade. You don't need a banker's budget to accumulate playable staples that way.

How often you play is your decision.

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How do passable proxies hinder or affect game play? You don't want certain players to be able to play because of a technicality that has nothing to do with game play or skill, but instead an arbitrary barrier to entry that has nothing to do with competition.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Maybe it takes not failing at life to break into the format, I don't know. All I know is somehow I've been managing fine to play legacy through high school, college, marriage, fatherhood, divorce and other costly life issues without being half as whiny as you over just the past 48 hours.

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[Dzra]

How do passable proxies hinder or affect game play?

It's very simple, so maybe if you'd stop picking and choosing what information you'd like to acknowledge we could get somewhere. "Passable proxies" or counterfeits or indistinguishable fakes or whatever you'd like to call them hinder game play by eliminating game play. Tournaments need backers like WotC, SCG, TCG, and local gaming stores; without these institutions, tournament play would not exist. Counterfeiting undeniably hurts businesses that revolve around gaming and collectibles. Local gaming stores in particular are the bread and butter of the Magic community, and having the thinnest profit margins, stand to suffer the most. Does this help you or would you prefer to ignore this so that you can attempt to rationalize obtaining your cheap cards today?

[HonorBasquiat]

It's very simple, so maybe if you'd stop picking and choosing what information you'd like to acknowledge we could get somewhere. "Passable proxies" or counterfeits or indistinguishable fakes or whatever you'd like to call them hinder game play by eliminating game play. Tournaments need backers like WotC, SCG, TCG, and local gaming stores; without these institutions, tournament play would not exist. Counterfeiting undeniably hurts businesses that revolve around gaming and collectibles. Local gaming stores in particular are the bread and butter of the Magic community, and having the thinnest profit margins, stand to suffer the most. Does this help you or would you prefer to ignore this so that you can attempt to rationalize obtaining your cheap cards today?

Proxies don't hurt LGS's. It's just a baseless assumption. People buy proxies because they can't afford to spend thousands on cards, they wouldn't have bought them anyway. People with fake cards have to pay tournament fees also. And people who have had the same legacy deck for years aren't buying singles from stores to support their deck anymore anyway. There are also stores that host tournaments that don't even sell singles.

Honestly I'm not a very competitive player, so I wouldn't use the cards for competitive play but I will built more competitive decks to play with casually, and I won't tell people my cards are fake because it doesn't affect game play.

[Lemnear]

This thread needs a lock ...


@HonorBasquiat:
What about a post without the use of the words "baseless assumption"? Every argument was commented that way, so I woild be interested in an argument how supporting counterfeit producers by buying card from them and creating a demand is any healty for the game?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This thread needs a lock.

Qft. QAPC.

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[Dice_Box]

This thread needs a lock.

[Dzra]

Proxies don't hurt LGS's.

We aren't talking about proxies. Like someone stated earlier, proxies stop being proxies when they can be mistaken for the real thing. Proxies do not hurt stores. Counterfeits do.


Honestly I'm not a very competitive player, so I wouldn't use the cards for competitive play but I will built more competitive decks to play with casually, and I won't tell people my cards are fake because it doesn't affect game play.

Are you embarrassed to play with proxies? Is that what this is about? For whatever reason you cannot or will not buy the real cards; however, you don't want to get sneered at for printing cards off your home printer. Maybe you can win some cool points by fooling people into thinking that you can afford a fancy Legacy deck?

No one is stopping you from playing the game. No one is stopping you from making your own proxies. If you don't want to get made fun of for playing with proxies then find some better friends or save up for the real thing, but don't ruin the game for everyone else.

[Jim Higginbottom]

This thread no longer serves any purpose, why is it open?

[Lord Seth]

I don't understand your point. While I'm not familiar with The First Folio, I would imagine that indistinguishable forgeries are impossible to make. Anyone who seriously considers spending millions of dollars will have the tools and resources to verify that they are not purchasing a fake. The average Magic player, and especially new players, do not have the resources or experience to distinguish between very good counterfeits.Two things.
I was under the impression we were talking about Wizards of the Coast mass reprinting cards. In that case, the whole counterfeiting is irrelevant because they're official.

Though new players are not the ones who are most into collecting anyway, so them falling for counterfeits does not, as far as I can see, damage collectibility. The people who care about the collectibles are the ones most devoted to making sure what they have aren't counterfeits.

[Dzra]

I was under the impression we were talking about Wizards of the Coast mass reprinting cards. In that case, the whole counterfeiting is irrelevant because they're official.

Ah. I thought we were talking about counterfeiting. I think almost everyone on this forum agrees that Legacy staples should be officially reprinted in some capacity by WotC.


Though new players are not the ones who are most into collecting anyway, so them falling for counterfeits does not, as far as I can see, damage collectibility. The people who care about the collectibles are the ones most devoted to making sure what they have aren't counterfeits.

It hurts new players in a few ways:
1. When they trade real cards or money for counterfeits.
2. When they either knowingly or unknowingly trade away their counterfeits.
3. When they go to play in a tournament and are disqualified for (unknowingly) playing with counterfeits.
4. And finally, because even if they might not care about collectibility as much as veteran players, they still are acquiring their cards with the assumption that they do have some collectible value.

[HonorBasquiat]

We aren't talking about proxies. Like someone stated earlier, proxies stop being proxies when they can be mistaken for the real thing. Proxies do not hurt stores. Counterfeits do.

Are you embarrassed to play with proxies? Is that what this is about? For whatever reason you cannot or will not buy the real cards; however, you don't want to get sneered at for printing cards off your home printer. Maybe you can win some cool points by fooling people into thinking that you can afford a fancy Legacy deck?

No one is stopping you from playing the game. No one is stopping you from making your own proxies. If you don't want to get made fun of for playing with proxies then find some better friends or save up for the real thing, but don't ruin the game for everyone else.

I still don't understand what difference it makes for you if my proxies are passable or crappy looking. I want a realistic experience, but I don't want to spend thousands of dollars. But I don't know why you care about what my proxies look like, or how I obtained them, or made them, etc. As long as I'm not trading or selling them as real cards what difference does it make?

[Dzra]

I still don't understand what difference it makes for you if my proxies are passable or crappy looking... As long as I'm not trading or selling them as real cards what difference does it make?

Assuming that they never leave your possession, it doesn't matter how good they look. However, it does matter where you got them. Buying Magic cards from counterfeiters supports the Magic counterfeiting "industry," and this is bad. If you had your own printing press and made the most perfect fakes (which only you would use for casual games and which would never leave your person) then literally no one would care.

edit: For example, this guy shows you how to make pretty sick foil proxies. I've used this technique to make a bunch of custom-art foil tokens, and will most likely eventually make some proxy Vintage decks for me and my friends. They look pimp, but if you take them out of the sleeve (or if you use alternate art) it is very easy to distinguish them from real cards. I'm not supporting counterfeiters, I'm not hurting LGSs, I'm not damaging the secondary market, and I can still play good looking proxies while spending very little money.

If you really are only interested in playing casually with good looking proxies and aren't looking to screw someone then I highly doubt your friends would complain about you showing up with proxied foil Tundras and Force of Wills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAV1WI98lKE

[Dice_Box]

I still don't understand what difference it makes for you if my proxies are passable or crappy looking. I want a realistic experience, but I don't want to spend thousands of dollars. But I don't know why you care about what my proxies look like, or how I obtained them, or made them, etc. As long as I'm not trading or selling them as real cards what difference does it make?

So if it had a gold boarder would you use it?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

As promised, a picture of some of my proxies:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/03/e4ajyqaz.jpg

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[HonorBasquiat]

Assuming that they never leave your possession, it doesn't matter how good they look. However, it does matter where you got them. Buying Magic cards from counterfeiters supports the Magic counterfeiting "industry," and this is bad. If you had your own printing press and made the most perfect fakes (which only you would use for casual games and which would never leave your person) then literally no one would care.

edit: For example, this guy shows you how to make pretty sick foil proxies. I've used this technique to make a bunch of custom-art foil tokens, and will most likely eventually make some proxy Vintage decks for me and my friends. They look pimp, but if you take them out of the sleeve (or if you use alternate art) it is very easy to distinguish them from real cards. I'm not supporting counterfeiters, I'm not hurting LGSs, I'm not damaging the secondary market, and I can still play good looking proxies while spending very little money.

If you really are only interested in playing casually with good looking proxies and aren't looking to screw someone then I highly doubt your friends would complain about you showing up with proxied foil Tundras and Force of Wills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAV1WI98lKE

If I buy my proxies from a second hand operation, I'm actually not supporting the counterfeiting operation (i.e. Jane buys her proxies from China, and I buy a few proxies from Jane). But I could argue that anyone who buys their cards at Wal Mart is hurting LGS's which ultimately hurts Wizards. It wouldn't be a very good argument though.

As far as golden borders. If Wizards of the Coast printed a bunch of Modern staples with golden borders for a reasonable rate, I would buy them, for sure. But fake cards from China with golden borders, no. I have people at my LGS and friends that on principle refuse to play against proxies for no good reason. They feel that proxies interfere with gameplay because "it's not the same" Some of them believe you shouldn't be able to play with good decks if you are poor. Both of these things are stupid, and if I play with passable proxies, what they don't know doesn't hurt them and game play is the same.

I'm not looking to dupe or screw anyone, I would NEVER sell or trade proxies as real cards, that's so messed up. I just want my cards to look real because I want have a great paper MTG experience that feels real, I just can't afford to pay $3000. I think it's bogus to say "well, you are poor, so just play limited and pauper." I'd say, "No, I'm going to play Modern and Legacy, with proxies that are passable, so I can have the same experience as you and we can play competitive games." I'm not hurting you though, and it doesn't affect gameplay at all. I just don't want to spend thousands of dollars to play a game, but I don't want to play with crappy cards.

You can claim that proxies are going to crash the value of your cards, but it's a baseless claim. There's no evidence to prove this. There are already thousands of proxies that are passable in America, but your cards still hold value. People want real cards, people like supporting Wizards, people like supporting their LGS's, people don't like buying cards online, etc. There are hundreds of thousands of fake Gucci handbags and Babe Ruth baseball cards, but the originals are still worth a lot, and their brands are still in business.

[davelin]

You can claim that proxies are going to crash the value of your cards, but it's a baseless claim. There's no evidence to prove this. There are already thousands of proxies that are passable in America, but your cards still hold value. People want real cards, people like supporting Wizards, people like supporting their LGS's, people don't like buying cards online, etc. There are hundreds of thousands of fake Gucci handbags and Babe Ruth baseball cards, but the originals are still worth a lot, and their brands are still in business.

It's not cards that are obvious proxies are going to crash the game, it's the cards that are created and meant to be indistinguishable from the real thing that is going to crash the game. Your own intent doesn't come into it, unfortunately there are others who aren't as virtuous.

[HonorBasquiat]

It's not cards that are obvious proxies are going to crash the game, it's the cards that are created and meant to be indistinguishable from the real thing that is going to crash the game. Your own intent doesn't come into it, unfortunately there are others who aren't as virtuous.

Well judge and shame those people, not players like myself. I don't see how I'm part of the problem. I wasn't going to actually spend $3000 on Stoneblade anyway.

Secretly.A.Bee, I guess your proxies are cool. Some of my friends wouldn't want to play with them, because they look like clear fakes. People at my LGS only want to play with real cards in casual, for whatever arbitrary reason (it obviously doesn't have to do with gameplay, unless they are really crappy proxies that slow down gameplay). But if I play with passable proxies, I can still play with them, they won't protest or refuse to play with them because they will believe they are real. No victims, no harm.

[Dzra]

Well judge and shame those people, not players like myself.

Buying counterfeit cards that are meant to look real means you are part of the problem. Whatever you might plan on doing with your fakes is not relevant. You are literally funding their production, and for every person who buys them and only uses them for casual purposes there is some number of people that will sell or trade them as authentic. Again, what you do with the counterfeits does not matter. The issue is what happens to the money that you pay them. I'll give you a hint: It goes towards undermining Magic the Gathering.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Secretly.A.Bee, I guess your proxies are cool. Some of my friends wouldn't want to play with them, because they look like clear fakes.

They aren't supposed to pass for the real thing, they are proxies . They are cheap (literally pennies each) and extremely accurate, but never even come close to threatening the secondary market (or any other market for that matter).

I print 8 to a page in landscape format and I have D&T fully proxied along with elves and UWR Delver. I also have Tin Fins completed but the duals/fetches are obviously in esper so I proxy them so I can have both assembled at the same time. My friends appreciate the fact that they get solid play testing against a large part of the format and also proxy whatever they want to test. This way we have our pet decks that we spent a good amount of money on and can compete in tourneys, but more importantly we get good experience with them against the best decks in the format.

Edit: You can look into using artist proofs to "fool" your friends without undermining WotC/Hasbro. They are white backed so just use dark colored sleeves and they will be none the wiser.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[HonorBasquiat]

Buying counterfeit cards that are meant to look real means you are part of the problem. Whatever you might plan on doing with your fakes is not relevant. You are literally funding their production, and for every person who buys them and only uses them for casual purposes there is some number of people that will sell or trade them as authentic. Again, what you do with the counterfeits does not matter. The issue is what happens to the money that you pay them. I'll give you a hint: It goes towards undermining Magic the Gathering.

I already explained how I'm not literally funding their production if I'm buying them second hand (Jane buys the proxies from China, and I buy some proxy fetch lands from Jane). If you really want to talk about how it all goes back to the money on your initial investment, then stop buying Nike products or shopping at Target or Wal Mart. Or start judging everyone who does.

Ultimately the bottom line is that if I'm using passable proxies during gameplay, whether it's a casual pick me up game, an EDH game, or a semi competitive game, the proxies do nothing to affect or hinder the outcome of the game. The proxies eliminate and arbitrary barrier to entry that makes the game less accessible to players. The player that should win a game isn't the player with the most money available to invest the game, but instead the player with the best ability.

Selling and trading the proxies as real cards is terrible. I think that's something we can all agree on. Also, if Wizards actually reprinted cards that were clearly in demand more aggressively, I wouldn't want to buy passable proxies anyway. This isn't just cards that are on the reserve list either, I'm talking about cards like the fetch lands, bob, goyf, shocks, v clique, etc.

Edit: If I play with passable proxies, but I don't sell or trade them, nothing I am doing is "undermining Magic the Gathering"

[Secretly.A.Bee]

"If my minimum wage job paid me 6 figures a year, I wouldn't make counterfeit $100 bills."

See how terribly ignorant that sounds and is?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[HonorBasquiat]

"If my minimum wage job paid me 6 figures a year, I wouldn't make counterfeit $100 bills."

See how terribly ignorant that sounds and is?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Except counterfeiting $100 bills hurts the economy and has drastic consequences when you try to pass them off as real $100 bills. If you wanted to make proxy money, but you didn't intend on purchasing anything with it while passing it as real money, I wouldn't judge you and I don't think anyone would care.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Except counterfeiting $100 bills hurts the economy and has drastic consequences when you try to pass them off as real $100 bills. If you wanted to make proxy money, but you didn't intend on purchasing anything with it while passing it as real money, I wouldn't judge you and I don't think anyone would care.

See, you do get it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[HonorBasquiat]

See, you do get it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Your analogy is terrible.

Wizards won't reprint cards that I want to play with, and because they are absurdly expensive, I choose to play with affordable passable proxies. These proxies don't hinder or affect game play, I think they look cool, I don't intend to sell or buy them and they don't affect you. You shouldn't care what my proxies look like, because they don't affect you.

[Dzra]

These proxies don't hinder or affect game play, I think they look cool, I don't intend to sell or buy them and they don't affect you. You shouldn't care what my proxies look like, because they don't affect you.

No one cares what your proxies look like. We care who you are supporting with your money. Literally the only reason to buy counterfeits rather than make your own cheaper proxies is because you are trying to trick someone into thinking that they are real.

[sdematt]

No one cares what your proxies look like. We care who you are supporting with your money. Literally the only reason to buy counterfeits rather than make your own cheaper proxies is because you are trying to trick someone into thinking that they are real.

I should own a large percentage of Sharpie with all the proxies I've made. Is supporting 3M okay?

-Matt

[HonorBasquiat]

No one cares what your proxies look like. We care who you are supporting with your money. Literally the only reason to buy counterfeits rather than make your own cheaper proxies is because you are trying to trick someone into thinking that they are real.

Sure. Why does it matter if I want my cards to look convincing and passable if I'm not selling or trading them?

You claim you care about who I'm supporting with my money, but you wouldn't care if I spend hundreds of dollars on gold bordered proxies or even hand written proxies. You have a problem with me having a great paper MTG experience unless I pay my way into it, or was playing long enough where I had cards before they were expensive. Instead of making the game about competition and gameplay, you want it to be about cost.

[HammafistRoob]

Obvious troll is obvious guys, stop fucking feeding him and he'll die of hunger. He clearly can't read or half of these posts would have never occurred.

[HonorBasquiat]

Obvious troll is obvious guys, stop fucking feeding him and he'll die of hunger. He clearly can't read or half of these posts would have never occurred.

Yeah. I'm obviously a troll simply because I don't agree with you. Why don't you explain your problem with my reasoning instead of assuming the worst?

[Dzra]

You have a problem with me having a great paper MTG experience unless I pay my way into it, or was playing long enough where I had cards before they were expensive. Instead of making the game about competition and gameplay, you want it to be about cost.

What? As I said, you can have whatever experience you want as long as you aren't supporting counterfeiters. You can very easily make your own proxies that look great and might even be passable for real cards when sleeved. The point of these counterfeits is that they are meant to be undetectable. They are not meant to just look good; they are meant to be real. I'd love for Legacy to be cheaper and I dearly hope that all this drama motivates WotC to reprint Legacy staples. That doesn't change the fact that counterfeiting can only hurt the game in the long run.


I should own a large percentage of Sharpie with all the proxies I've made. Is supporting 3M okay?

I want to see some Arabian Nights Mountains with "Werebear" written across the face in giant bold Sharpie.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm now officially through with this thread.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[menace13]

It's more like knock-off clothing than currency. People who are going to buy Gucci bags are not the same people that want the fakes. MTG community is way too small to even compare to clothing brands, so even that is way off. But lol @ using currency analogies. How stupid.

The Chinese will work with you to make anything you may want. If one wanted to they could contact and work with them to produce fakes that pass all the main methods of testing. The older magic cards printed in the early 1990's are easy enough to reproduce. Wizards knows this and that is why they are rolling out holo stamps.

[HonorBasquiat]

What? As I said, you can have whatever experience you want as long as you aren't supporting counterfeiters. You can very easily make your own proxies that look great and might even be passable for real cards when sleeved. The point of these counterfeits is that they are meant to be undetectable. They are not meant to just look good; they are meant to be real. I'd love for Legacy to be cheaper and I dearly hope that all this drama motivates WotC to reprint Legacy staples. That doesn't change the fact that counterfeiting can only hurt the game in the long run.


I keep telling you that if I buy the proxies second hand, I'm not supporting the counterfeiter, you haven't responded to that point.

Yes, I want the proxies to look passable, if not undetectable. So freaking what? Why does that matter if I'm not selling or trading them.

[HammafistRoob]

Yeah. I'm obviously a troll simply because I don't agree with you. Why don't you explain your problem with my reasoning instead of assuming the worst?

Because you've been putting words into people's mouths and making blank assumptions. When someone makes a good counter argument for what you have written you beat around the bush trying to make yourself seem innocent. If you buy counterfeit cards from anywhere you are hurting the game overall, end of story.

I'm with everyone from the last page, this thread has served its purpose and is just spiraling into the abyss at this point.

[Dzra]

I keep telling you that if I buy the proxies second hand, I'm not supporting the counterfeiter, you haven't responded to that point.

Do you understand what "demand" is? It's not hard to figure out that if people are willing to purchase counterfeits then that creates demand for counterfeits. If you buy your fake cards from Jain and she bought hers from Billy and he got his from eBay where it was listed by a Chinese counterfeiter then that still creates the exact same demand as if you went to China yourself and paid for them with cash.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This is just more baseless assumptions. Who would want to buy expensive originals? Well, for starters you would. As would the other white knights in this thread that insist on the harms and problems with passable proxies.

All I want is to be able to have a good paper magic the gathering experience without spending a small fortune so I can have competitive games against players with good cards at my LGS or with my friends in casual pick me up games. It really is victim-less. Counterfeiting doesn't kill industry. Yeah, I might be able to play with a $3000 Stoneblade deck for $100 now (which will mean I actually can play Stoneblade now), but it's not like that hurts anyone. It certainly doesn't hurt Wizards.

So you basically repeated my point (who would buy expensive duals if there are undistinguishible proxies?) and tried to sound like you oppose my point? Wow! What was that? A race for the Great Source Quotes thread?



The only way to prevent people from buying counterfeits (as soon as they are indistinguishable) is the reprint way. WoTC will have to reprint high dollar cards, or those dollars will go straight to Hong Kong. It's that simple.
Yes.



Here i can fully agree. WotC should move their asses and reprint Legacy staples in... boosters or create more prepacked products for that crowd. WotC can do a shitload of stuff to make counterfeinting unattractive and creating a holographic Symbol for the upcoming EDH jank is NOT the way to do.
Not in Standard product, please, unless they make it somehow pre-banned in the format. I think that occasional Legacy decks with FTV Demonic Tutors are annoying enoguh, now imagine all the little boys repeatedly DQed because their decks use Savannahs they pulled from the Bored of Gods boosters and thought they are Type II legal.



I don't see how you can put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been supporting the game and buying licensed cards and not see how they would be upset by passable fakes.
This.



What I get from your posts is selfishness. You want an expensive Legacy deck but don't want to pay for it. You want it to be tournament-legal. As far as I can see, you joined The Source simply to stir up trouble.
And this.
Btw... ESG, you should change your custom user title to "Loses to false False Cure". :laugh:



HonorBasquiat, there is only one reason to buy counterfeits, and that is because they are almost indistinguishable from the real thing. Don't come up in here and try to be all poor pitiful me who can't even afford to play Legacy ever in a million years. You want something, but you don't want to pay for it. Again, by buying counterfeits you personally are donating money to people who are contributing to the failure of Magic. It's that simple. Tell it like it is, "I want Magic cards today but I want them cheap and I don't really care what happens to your cards and I don't care what happens to the game a year from now or in ten years. I just want my cheap cards now."
And this.



I feel the topic/idea here is that there are a million poststamps but every player should own a Blue Mauritius because they prefer collecting old poststamps.
And... this.




Explain the harms of using the cards provided they aren't being sold or traded as real cards.
Do you have protection from display?

People wrote dozens of arguments why fakes hurt the community and the game itself, but you're still repeating over and over your only argument "but it doesn't hurt gaming experience". Yes, we know it. It's how the proxy works, thanks for enlkightning us. But unfortunately, we're not discussing proxies but fakes; I hope you understand the difference. (Btw, feel free to make a different thread about proxies, but sry, this one is omnly for the discussion on fakes.)

So, what are the most reasonable arguments against Chinese fakes? They may be sold as the real thing to bambbozle new/young players. They may undermine prices of real cards (do you realize that their only reason for existance is that they are cheaper than originals, don't you?) and thus have a potential to reduce the value of anyone's collection of real cards. Do you understand it, or do you need it in some other language?

And, my dear friend, I really don't care of any anti-hoarders arguments. I don't like hoarders and speculators, because they (and boneheads of WotC) caused the immense rise of prices. But you asked how the fakes may harm the value of real cards, so I'm giving you the example for the third time. If you don't understand that the money you'll send to the counterfeiters will be somehow used to scam little kids who'd buy fake JTMS for 100 Euros just to be DQed, then no one can help you.



It's very simple, so maybe if you'd stop picking and choosing what information you'd like to acknowledge we could get somewhere. "Passable proxies" or counterfeits or indistinguishable fakes or whatever you'd like to call them hinder game play by eliminating game play. Tournaments need backers like WotC, SCG, TCG, and local gaming stores; without these institutions, tournament play would not exist. Counterfeiting undeniably hurts businesses that revolve around gaming and collectibles. Local gaming stores in particular are the bread and butter of the Magic community, and having the thinnest profit margins, stand to suffer the most. Does this help you or would you prefer to ignore this so that you can attempt to rationalize obtaining your cheap cards today?
I fear that you've tried in vain. But I may be surprised...



We aren't talking about proxies. Like someone stated earlier, proxies stop being proxies when they can be mistaken for the real thing. Proxies do not hurt stores. Counterfeits do.

Are you embarrassed to play with proxies? Is that what this is about? For whatever reason you cannot or will not buy the real cards; however, you don't want to get sneered at for printing cards off your home printer. Maybe you can win some cool points by fooling people into thinking that you can afford a fancy Legacy deck?

No one is stopping you from playing the game. No one is stopping you from making your own proxies. If you don't want to get made fun of for playing with proxies then find some better friends or save up for the real thing, but don't ruin the game for everyone else.
This.



Ah. I thought we were talking about counterfeiting. I think almost everyone on this forum agrees that Legacy staples should be officially reprinted in some capacity by WotC.
Methinks.




It hurts new players in a few ways:
1. When they trade real cards or money for counterfeits.
2. When they either knowingly or unknowingly trade away their counterfeits.
3. When they go to play in a tournament and are disqualified for (unknowingly) playing with counterfeits.
4. And finally, because even if they might not care about collectibility as much as veteran players, they still are acquiring their cards with the assumption that they do have some collectible value.
Baseless assumptions.



:tongue:



I still don't understand what difference it makes for you if my proxies are passable or crappy looking. I want a realistic experience, but I don't want to spend thousands of dollars. But I don't know why you care about what my proxies look like, or how I obtained them, or made them, etc. As long as I'm not trading or selling them as real cards what difference does it make?
Learn to read.



As far as golden borders. If Wizards of the Coast printed a bunch of Modern staples with golden borders for a reasonable rate, I would buy them, for sure. But fake cards from China with golden borders, no. I have people at my LGS and friends that on principle refuse to play against proxies for no good reason. They feel that proxies interfere with gameplay because "it's not the same" Some of them believe you shouldn't be able to play with good decks if you are poor. Both of these things are stupid, and if I play with passable proxies, what they don't know doesn't hurt them and game play is the same.
Secretly.A.Bee, I guess your proxies are cool. Some of my friends wouldn't want to play with them, because they look like clear fakes. People at my LGS only want to play with real cards in casual...
So, the whole argument boils down to "I don't want to look like a scrub in front of my stupid friends"? Oh, I see. Now THAT's really the reason why I should risk my cards to lose value!



Ultimately the bottom line is that if I'm using passable proxies during gameplay, whether it's a casual pick me up game, an EDH game, or a semi competitive game, the proxies do nothing to affect or hinder the outcome of the game.
Shit, you're like a jammed gramophone. You're still repeating how this doesn't affeect gameplay, but we all know it, thanks for informing us how proxies work. But what the fakes may or may not harm are the non-gameplay aspects of game, like financial value of cards, support of WotC/lgs, they might be used to scam people. Are you getting the message or not?



Yeah. I'm obviously a troll simply because I don't agree with you. Why don't you explain your problem with my reasoning instead of assuming the worst?
Because every time somehow tries to tell you how the fakes affect the non-gameplay aspects of MtG, you're still repeating "but they do not affect gameplay" nonsense you blather over and over again and again.
Either way, I'm done with you.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

This game is not comparable with stamps. Because we own cards to play with them not to get money out of them. If you think otherwise stop playing a game which is meant to be played and not collected.
Based on this high prices hurt the market and therefore the scoundary retailers are the ones who are damaging the market. I hope that the counterfeits reduce the prices to a reasonable price again.
So the fakes will help to get a healthy market back and this hopefully will lead to a increasing comunity.
Don't get me wrong this is a terrible way of helping the market and I would prefer another but I think to find one like reducing the price on our own we have to quit thinking about the loss of value and start thinking what can help us to have a intact format withou SCG support.

Best regards

Teveshszat

[nevilshute]

Hello,

This game is not comparable with stamps. Because we own cards to play with them not to get money out of them. If you think otherwise stop playing a game which is meant to be played and not collected.
Based on this high prices hurt the market and therefore the scoundary retailers are the ones who are damaging the market. I hope that the counterfeits reduce the prices to a reasonable price again.
So the fakes will help to get a healthy market back and this hopefully will lead to a increasing comunity.
Don't get me wrong this is a terrible way of helping the market and I would prefer another but I think to find one like reducing the price on our own we have to quit thinking about the loss of value and start thinking what can help us to have a intact format withou SCG support.

Best regards

Teveshszat

I'm sorry but Magic, the Gathering is a collectable card game. It's a game that's ALSO a collectable. That's in part why cards have rarity and why there are vanity versions of cards like foils. Each player can approach the game however he or she chooses, but you can't just ignore that while you might not enjoy the collectable aspect of MTG, other players do. A player can be a collector at the same time.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ok, I have done immense work (no need to thank me) and collected all the necessary info from all the unneeded spam about boxes of duals thou sitteth upon, black lotus diet, living conditions in China, etc. I'd love if some moderator makes something out of it, e.g. if he starts (and insta-locks) a separate sticky thread made only of these posts:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780024&viewfull=1#post780024
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780049&viewfull=1#post780049
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780053&viewfull=1#post780053
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780101&viewfull=1#post780101
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780137&viewfull=1#post780137
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780150&viewfull=1#post780150
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780417&viewfull=1#post780417
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780506&viewfull=1#post780506
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780737&viewfull=1#post780737
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27363-Chinese-fakes&p=780880&viewfull=1#post780880
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[davelin]

I'm sorry but Magic, the Gathering is a collectable card game. It's a game that's ALSO a collectable. That's in part why cards have rarity and why there are vanity versions of cards like foils. Each player can approach the game however he or she chooses, but you can't just ignore that while you might not enjoy the collectable aspect of MTG, other players do. A player can be a collector at the same time.

Actually its marketed as a trading card game, no longer marketed as collectible.

[Humphrey]

Magic is comparable to collecting stamps. But in reality you only need/use the common stamps, not the rare ones.
Imagine you can send certain letters only with a mauritius..
Thats the difference.

We need a widespread product to use/play.

[HonorBasquiat]

Aside from the attitude, I respect Bed Decks Palyer's case. Here are my arguments to his arguments directed at me.

Although he asks, "who would buy real cards when there are passable cards?" I would tell him that he would, along with many other people, especially the people who have this moral crusade telling me what what I am doing is wrong. You can't honestly believe that people will stop buying real cards. That's such a ridiculous assumption. By the way I already addressed this, people like owning real cards, especially collectors. Many people like supporting Wizards, people like supporting their local game shops, some people don't like shopping online, etc. I'm buying fake cards, because I can't afford real cards.

You state that the most harmful potentially consequence of passable proxies is that they may be sold or traded as real cards. I already said that was terrible, but I'm not planning on doing that. That has nothing to do with me. If you really want, you can say I'm indirectly supporting this regardless, because I'm supporting the creation of the fake cards (even if I'm buying them second hand), but it's a really bad argument. I already explained this by drawing an analogy to people who support evil companies like Wal Mart and Nike that do way worse things things to people and small businesses. Even though people buy products from Wal Mart and Nike, you aren't going to judge them all and say they are supporting union suppression, child labor, monopolies and small business suppression. You certainly aren't going to ask everyone to stop buying products from Wal Mart and Nike.

You talk about how you are worried your trading cards will lose value. Provide some actual empirical evidence that is going to happen. It's certainly not going to happen if I spend $100 on fake cards and never sell or trade them. If I buy fake cards, and I don't sell them or buy them,you aren't directly affected.

Finally, the fact that you concede that your crusade against passable proxies has nothing to do with gameplay further proves you like arbitrary financial barriers to entry. You would prefer for games to be determined by access to wealth rather than skill or gameplay, because you are paranoid that if I buy some fake cards I'm not going to sell or trade, suddenly your cards are going to be worthless (a claim you haven't even tried to prove).

[davelin]

That has nothing to do with me. If you really want, you can say I'm indirectly supporting this regardless, because I'm supporting the creation of the fake cards (even if I'm buying them second hand), but it's a really bad argument. I already explained this by drawing an analogy to people who support evil companies like Wal Mart and Nike that do way worse things things to people and small businesses. Even though people buy products from Wal Mart and Nike, you aren't going to judge them all and say they are supporting union suppression, child labor, monopolies and small business suppression. You certainly aren't going to ask everyone to stop buying products from Wal Mart and Nike.

I'm not quite sure why you think this is a bad argument. You understand that the majority of products (including Magic cards themselves) are bought via distribution channels, not through the producer/supplier themselves. If everyone in the world buys counterfeit cards through a third-party, does that lessen the problem anymore? No because it increases the supply out there which is bad.



Finally, the fact that you concede that your crusade against passable proxies has nothing to do with gameplay further proves you like arbitrary financial barriers to entry. You would prefer for games to be determined by access to wealth rather than skill or gameplay, because you are paranoid that if I buy some fake cards I'm not going to sell or trade, suddenly your cards are going to be worthless (a claim you haven't even tried to prove).

There are many folks who wish the barriers to entry was less but we don't have any direct control over that. Many folks have indirectly tried (lobbying Wizards, encouraging proxy tournaments, etc.) but you're in favor of bypassing through illegal entries. And unfortunately there are pastimes that have monetary (or other) barriers to entry besides skill. Wake up.

[mishima_kazuya]

You talk about how you are worried your trading cards will lose value. Provide some actual empirical evidence that is going to happen. It's certainly not going to happen if I spend $100 on fake cards and never sell or trade them. If I buy fake cards, and I don't sell them or buy them,you aren't directly affected.

Finally, the fact that you concede that your crusade against passable proxies has nothing to do with gameplay further proves you like arbitrary financial barriers to entry. You would prefer for games to be determined by access to wealth rather than skill or gameplay, because you are paranoid that if I buy some fake cards I'm not going to sell or trade, suddenly your cards are going to be worthless (a claim you haven't even tried to prove).

If you do not mind me coming between the two of you, I'll chime in.
It's more than just the barrier to entry. I think most sane people want legacy staples to be cheaper, but stores still need to profit and offer nice prizes as incentive for people to play.
I think duals should be expensive to an extent to make winning tournaments worthwhile. But $180 underground seas is not sustainable and terrible for the health of the format.
Cheap as dirt fake decks($100) is not good for the format and $3k decks are not good either. Whatever finally pushes Wotc to mass print duals, fows and the like needs to come soon; and perhaps these fakes could be the final stepping stone.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Aside from the attitude, I respect Bed Decks Palyer's case. Here are my arguments to his arguments directed at me.

Although he asks, "who would buy real cards when there are passable cards?" I would tell him that he would, along with many other people, especially the people who have this moral crusade telling me what what I am doing is wrong. You can't honestly believe that people will stop buying real cards. That's such a ridiculous assumption. By the way I already addressed this, people like owning real cards, especially collectors. Many people like supporting Wizards, people like supporting their local game shops, some people don't like shopping online, etc. I'm buying fake cards, because I can't afford real cards
Why should I be concerned of you and your inability to play cards? I have enough worries with my own cards...



You state that the most harmful potentially consequence of passable proxies is that they may be sold or traded as real cards. I already said that was terrible, but I'm not planning on doing that. That has nothing to do with me. If you really want, you can say I'm indirectly supporting this regardless, because I'm supporting the creation of the fake cards (even if I'm buying them second hand), but it's a really bad argument. I already explained this by drawing an analogy to people who support evil companies like Wal Mart and Nike that do way worse things things to people and small businesses. Even though people buy products from Wal Mart and Nike, you aren't going to judge them all and say they are supporting union suppression, child labor, monopolies and small business suppression. You certainly aren't going to ask everyone to stop buying products from Wal Mart and Nike.
you keep bringing the Nike. Dude, you know why the kids work in their factories? Because they (and their parents) have two choices: to work there or starve. Could you do us a favor? Instead of your moral crusade, simply fly to Malaysia/China and give money to one of the kids in the factory so that (s)he may visit school and not starve.
Btw, your point of view is so post-modern, euro-americano-atlantican, so whitemen's, I can't even believe what I'm reading. You know that just sixty years ago it was pretty usual for kids to work even in your country? You know that your own (grand)grandfather worked on a field or in some workshop or maybe he hunted rabbits with airgun since his six years? Just because white continents rose above the level of overall poverty doesn't mean that it's the same everywhere else.



You talk about how you are worried your trading cards will lose value. Provide some actual empirical evidence that is going to happen. It's certainly not going to happen if I spend $100 on fake cards and never sell or trade them. If I buy fake cards, and I don't sell them or buy them,you aren't directly affected.
What? I wrote I'm not going to risk it. Do your experiments elsewhere.



Finally, the fact that you concede that your crusade against passable proxies has nothing to do with gameplay further proves you like arbitrary financial barriers to entry. You would prefer for games to be determined by access to wealth rather than skill or gameplay, because you are paranoid that if I buy some fake cards I'm not going to sell or trade, suddenly your cards are going to be worthless (a claim you haven't even tried to prove).
I don't like the arbitrary financial barrier. I'd wish that the cards were cheaper, but not at the cost of fakes that bring many unnecessary troubles.

Btw, do you know why the ppl of your casual group don't want to play with proxies/fakes? Becasue it worsens their gameplay experience. Wanna know why and how? That's easy. They got decks that they built, maybe even expensive ones, at least considering particular budget of the particualr player. Now, this leads to predictable and stable metagame (google that word just in case). Changes in that meta are slow, they happen at the same pace at which they get funds to acquire new cards.
Now, when you show up and bring proxies (and thanks to their zero cost you may build dozen of decks, while they need to plan ahead purchases, limit their decks, etc.), you simply destabilize the metagame (though it may be a kitchen table one, but it doesn't matter). They might not even know what's happening, but they might feel this on unconscious level. And once they allow the proxies for you, it won't take much time to allow them for everyone else. That's when their until-now-stable metagame (a) begins to oscilate or (b) collapses into dozens of BlackLotus.dec. This is how your "harmless" proxies negatively affect their "gaming experience", when you're so erect from the phrase. You may argue that metagame doesn't cohere with gaming experience, but in this case I have no more words for you and just resort to god ol' principle about trolls and not feeding them.


Now, I expect you to please us with more "white knights' crusade", "unhurt gameplay", "evil Nike" and "baseless assumptions" parroting. Ok dude, enjoy your fakes. Ignore list.

[HonorBasquiat]

I'm not quite sure why you think this is a bad argument. You understand that the majority of products (including Magic cards themselves) are bought via distribution channels, not through the producer/supplier themselves. If everyone in the world buys counterfeit cards through a third-party, does that lessen the problem anymore? No because it increases the supply out there which is bad.

And unfortunately there are pastimes that have monetary (or other) barriers to entry besides skill. Wake up.

It's a bad argument for two reasons. First, not everyone in the world is going to by counterfeits through a third party. Second, just because you directly or indirectly support a business model that might be doing something unscrupulous doesn't mean you are doing something morally wrong. I'll stress my Nike and WalMart example again. Would you judge and shame anyone who bought from these businesses and claim that are responsible for child labor, union suppression, and small business suppression?

MTG doesn't have to have a steep monetary barrier to entry, and it won't when I buy my fake cards. I'll finally be able to have good mana fixing in EDH without having to spend hundreds of dollars.

Bed Decks Palyer, let me get this straight, it's bad and elitist that I'm against children's sweat shops that exploit families? BTW, my Great grandfather did work in a field (he was a black sharecropper in the south) and I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with a big grin on his face. Why don't you tell people who buy packs at Wal Mart that they are part of the problem LGS's face, and they are wrong because they are supporting a business that harms LGS's? Because it would be a stupid argument. You are judging and shaming me because I am potentially supporting a factory that makes cards fake cards, but you refuse to judge and shame people who support businesses and factories that do things that are much worse. How is that not hypocritical?

You say "I'm not going to take the risk." This is more of that baseless claim nonsense. Counterfeiting isn't new. Counterfeiting trading cards isn't new, it doesn't bankrupt companies, and it doesn't make real cards worthless. You are attacking and judging people on the basis of something you have no evidence of, and historically, evidence shows that your theory is wrong.

The reason some of my friends are against proxies is they feel entitled, they believe they should win more games than people who spend less money on MTG. It doesn't have anything to do with the meta. Proxies are just a substitution for money. The meta would fluctuate if I had a lot of money and decided to buy a $3000 deck, but they would be totally fine with that. It's just arbitrary nonsense.

I will enjoy my fakes, I won't sell them, I won't trade them. I won't hurt you. I will enjoy being able to have a similar experience to someone who either has been playing for decades, or someone who is willing to spend thousands of dollars on cardboard. Hate all you want.

[davelin]

It's a bad argument for two reasons. First, not everyone in the world is going to by counterfeits through a third party. Second, just because you directly or indirectly support a business model that might be doing something unscrupulous doesn't mean you are doing something morally wrong. I'll stress my Nike and WalMart example again. Would you judge and shame anyone who bought from these businesses and claim that are responsible for child labor, union suppression, and small business suppression?

Sigh. Do you understand that Magic the Gathering is a copyright-protected product and such it is ILLEGAL for another to reproduce it and sell it? It isn't about scruples or morality. It is ILLEGAL. There is no "might be doing something unscrupulous", they are doing something ILLEGAL.

[HonorBasquiat]

Sigh. Do you understand that Magic the Gathering is a copyright-protected product and such it is ILLEGAL for another to reproduce it and sell it? It isn't about scruples or morality. It is ILLEGAL. There is no "might be doing something unscrupulous", they are doing something ILLEGAL.

It's not illegal for me to buy counterfeits from China. It's not illegal for me to buy counterfeits second hand from Americans.

But I guess because it's ILLEGAL, it's bad. I guess because it's ILLEGAL to jaywalk at 3AM when there are no cars, so you should judge me for doing so.

[davelin]

It's not illegal for me to buy counterfeits from China. It's not illegal for me to buy counterfeits second hand from Americans.

But I guess because it's ILLEGAL, it's bad. I guess because it's ILLEGAL to jaywalk at 3AM when there are no cars, so you should judge me for doing so.

I guess I've gotten you to admit what they are doing is illegal. Or buying from a third-party doesn't make much of a difference. I'll count those as minor wins. I'm not judging you, I'm trying to explain your actions has reprecussions for the rest of us. You say that you don't plan on selling or trading them, but what's the guarantee that is even true or will be true forever? What if someone steals your cards or you decide to sell out?

Let's say that it's true you won't ever release them to the wild but so what? The prescence of these degrades the confidence of these in the open market thus people will only feel comfortable buying these from reputable vendors. Demand goes up, so does price which exacerberates the problem you were hoping to "solve".

[MaximumC]

You are judging and shaming me because I am potentially supporting a factory that makes cards fake cards, but you refuse to judge and shame people who support businesses and factories that do things that are much worse.

I think this is a web board for discussing Magic: The Gathering. It's probably safe to assume that there are many more important problems in the world that people should deal with. It's also probably safe to say that there are many better ways to deal with any problem than argue about it on a web board.

Knowingly buying counterfeits is supporting bad people and doing a bad thing for Magic. Doing so means you are putting your own self-interest in owning something you cannot afford over what is good for the Magic community. It's just that simple.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Oh, and yet a small note:

I find it amusing that a guy who selfishly wishes to play the decks without investing the same money as others had to, is trying to give us lessons in ethics, see "evil Nike" and such. Someone inform him that he can't have it both ways, he can't be openly selfish and then pretend how he cares of poor children in factories.

I work in a factory. I work in thelve-hour shifts, I work on night-shifts, I'm taking extra shifts to feed my family, I save money for my three little children so that they have some starting point once they grow up. And even with all this burden, I'm still able to build a Legacy deck or two, heck, I even had a nice collection which I started to dissolve only few years ago when I realized that MtG is out of my budget. I play this game since 1996 and I searched for and traded cards for my friends since 1997, always asking only for the minimum fee that was nearly never worthy the time and effort I spent digging the many obscure cards they wished for, doing this long before internet changed all this corvee into a "click this button" wellness&relax. I lent cards and decks to my friends if I was able to do so, and I did it until a friend of mine lost a USD 300 worthy of cards which was the moment I hardened my heart and ever since then I stay mute to the cries of 35 y/o Aryan babies that don't have their toys to play Magical Collectible Cardgame while 5/6 of world is starving.

So come at me with your moral crusade how I'm evildoer as I don't want to support fakers and their cocksuckers. Because yeah, "fakez rockz" and they are greater good. Esp. those fake JTMS for the price of 1/4 of real ones. Really, this reminds me some guys of our old group who CMYK-xeroxed Breezkeepers, Uktabi Orangutans and Boomerangs so that they "don't need to waste money for real cards", all the while purchasing those ugly copies of five-crowns cards for 100 CZK per sheet with 8 cards.

Seriously, if Engels would live today, his most famous work would be The Part Played by Magic: the Gathering in the Transition from Human to Ape. :rolleyes:

[HonorBasquiat]

I guess I've gotten you to admit what they are doing is illegal. Or buying from a third-party doesn't make much of a difference. I'll count those as minor wins. I'm not judging you, I'm trying to explain your actions has reprecussions for the rest of us. You say that you don't plan on selling or trading them, but what's the guarantee that is even true or will be true forever? What if someone steals your cards or you decide to sell out?

Let's say that it's true you won't ever release them to the wild but so what? The prescence of these degrades the confidence of these in the open market thus people will only feel comfortable buying these from reputable vendors. Demand goes up, so does price which exacerberates the problem you were hoping to "solve".

You just said this had nothing to do with morality, you said this had to do with me breaking the law. And now you realize I'm not breaking the law, and you are telling me this is about morality. Which one is it?

Your claim that demand will rise because of fakes which exacerbates the problem, but this is totally baseless. You have no tangible evidence that what you are saying is true. Do you understand that? Historically, counterfeiting does not affect true values of products. This is true with Pokemon cards, this is true with Nike Dunks. This is true with Magic the Gathering cards.

Bed Decks Palyer, I'm sure you are a great father, and a hard worker at your job and I really mean that. I'm not a father and I work fewer hours than you, but I don't see why that means when we play MTG you should have an advantage. This just goes back to my gameplay argument. I don't need to waste real money I don't have on cardboard. Passable proxies allow me to do this.

It sounds like you guys just don't want me to have as much fun as you guys did, because "I didn't work as hard" but that's stupid, and working hard outside of gameplay shouldn't be a criteria.

[Dzra]

By the way I already addressed this, people like owning real cards, especially collectors. Many people like supporting Wizards, people like supporting their local game shops, some people don't like shopping online, etc. I'm buying fake cards, because I can't afford real cards.

As you say so eloquently, some of us are supporting Wizards and gaming stores by purchasing real cards. You are supporting counterfeiters and the third parties that disperse them.


If you really want, you can say I'm indirectly supporting this regardless, because I'm supporting the creation of the fake cards (even if I'm buying them second hand), but it's a really bad argument.

The argument is not bad; it's very simple. Magic is built around the secondary market. Buying Magic cards creates a demand for Magic cards. This is obvious in the way prices rise when more people want a certain card. It does not matter if you bought it off of eBay or whatever third party. Buying a Jace from Johnny is the same as buying a Jace from SCG which is the same as opening a bunch of boosters and keeping all the Jaces you find. Buying Jace creates a demand for it.

Buying fake Magic cards creates a demand for fake Magic cards. Just like real Magic cards, it doesn't matter if you purchased it from the source or from a third party. The fact that you purchased it at all means that demand was created.

Here's a cute metaphor to help you out. Billy likes to bake, so he bakes ten meat pies. Five people buy a pie and eat it. Five more people buy a pie to resell it. Three of these people are able to resell their pies, however the last two cannot. Billy doesn't know, nor does he care. Next time, Billy will make another ten pies because he sold them all the first time. Like last time, five people buy a pie and eat it. However, this time only three people buy a pie to resell it because the remaining two are still stuck with the old pie. Billy realizes that the demand for ten pies simply isn't there and decides to only bake eight pies the next time.

Demand doesn't care what link on the chain you are. If you buy something, you create demand. If people don't buy and the counterfeiters are left with a warehouse full of useless cardboard then do you think they are going to keep making counterfeits? If people are banging at their doors for more and more cheap fakes, do you think they are going to stop?

[Namida]

Would you judge and shame anyone who bought from these businesses and claim that are responsible for child labor, union suppression, and small business suppression?

Yes, I would.


You are judging and shaming me because I am potentially supporting a factory that makes cards fake cards, but you refuse to judge and shame people who support businesses and factories that do things that are much worse.

Since your position seems to be that no one should judge you because you assume no one judges customers of other bad companies, where does your argument go from the point that you realize that people absolutely do judge those customers?

[MaximumC]

It sounds like you guys just don't want me to have as much fun as you guys did, because "I didn't work as hard" but that's stupid, and working hard outside of gameplay shouldn't be a criteria.

Hardly. How is paying a criminal necessary for you to have fun?

I'm a huge proponent of proxies. If you want to organize a Vintage or Legacy tournament, I'm first in line to argue for letting people have as many proxies as they like. I'll never look at you crosswise if you want to use a sharpied land as your general in EDH.

What is bad for the game -- and this isn't morality, it's economics -- is facilitating the production and distribution of cards that some people cannot tell apart from legitimate, honest-to-god Magic cards.

If you want to play proxies, sharpie a land. If you cannot possibly bring yourself to bear the thought of playing with such an ugly card, make or buy some transparency proxies. They're gorgeous and feel even better than Magic cards, I think, but no one would mistake them for the real deal. Or, you could do what I do, and blank out regular cards and use sharpies and felt tip pens to do some artwork and draw yourself a unique looking proxy card in black and white.

Putting money into the hands of people who want to not proxy, but outright COUNTERFEIT cards is bad.

[HonorBasquiat]

Yes, I would.



Since your position seems to be that no one should judge you because you assume no one judges customers of other bad companies, where does your argument go from the point that you realize that people absolutely do judge those customers?

If you really aren't a hypocrite, and you don't support or indirectly support companies that are unscrupulous, then I respect you, I honestly do. But you also should be judging people who buy packs at Wal Mart also.

Dzra, show me tangible evidence that passable proxies will hurt the value of your real cards.

[MaximumC]

Dzra, show me tangible evidence that passable proxies will hurt the value of your real cards.

Tangible? That will only happen after the crisis we're worried about hits.

Magic cards are absurdly expensive right now. There's a bubble. This bubble is dangerous because many of the subsidiary entities that support Magic are feeding off of the bubble. Now, we could either deflate the bubble gradually through controlled reprints and new formats, or we could cause a market panic because someone has figured out how to print fakes that fool most people, and demand for sight-unseen online sales plummet. Which one is going to cause more damage to these subsidiary industries?

[Dzra]

Dzra, show me tangible evidence that passable proxies will hurt the value of your real cards.

The closest example I can think of would be how piracy collapsed the physical media market for music or how tablet devices are putting physical bookstores out of business, but both of these examples are inadequate and incomplete. Obviously any evidence that counterfeiting MTG cards will affect MTG prices doesn't exist yet, but I imagine that if spoiled brats like you keep creating a demand for forgeries then we will get that evidence.


It sounds like you guys just don't want me to have as much fun as you guys did, because "I didn't work as hard" but that's stupid, and working hard outside of gameplay shouldn't be a criteria.

Grow up.

[davelin]

You just said this had nothing to do with morality, you said this had to do with me breaking the law. And now you realize I'm not breaking the law, and you are telling me this is about morality. Which one is it?

I didn't bring up morality, show me where I did.



Your claim that demand will rise because of fakes which exacerbates the problem, but this is totally baseless. You have no tangible evidence that what you are saying is true. Do you understand that? Historically, counterfeiting does not affect true values of products. This is true with Pokemon cards, this is true with Nike Dunks. This is true with Magic the Gathering cards.

By extension do you think it's okay to support other counterfeiting ventures then?



It sounds like you guys just don't want me to have as much fun as you guys did, because "I didn't work as hard" but that's stupid, and working hard outside of gameplay shouldn't be a criteria.

You're taking this way too personally if this is your conclusion, it is good for the whole community if these cards aren't produced. Many (including myself) have stated that high prices is harming the game but taking recourse by supporting illegal counterfeiting isn't the solution here. If your playgroups don't allow proxies then unfortunately you'll have to find another one.

[HonorBasquiat]

Tangible? That will only happen after the crisis we're worried about hits.


You realize there are already thousands and thousands of passable proxies "in circulation" already right? People are already enjoying passable proxies and your cards are still the same.

[MaximumC]

The closest example I can think of would be how piracy collapsed the physical media market for music or how tablet devices are putting physical bookstores out of business, but both of these examples are inadequate and incomplete. Obviously any evidence that counterfeiting MTG cards will affect MTG prices doesn't exist yet, but I imagine that if spoiled brats like you keep creating a demand for forgeries then we will get that evidence.

Grow up.

I agree with your conclusions, even if your analogy is a little shaky. Even so, we get nowhere insulting people by telling them "spoiled brats" and telling them to "grow up." All that will do is get sparks flying and eventually get the thread locked.


You realize there are already thousands and thousands of passable proxies "in circulation" already right? People are already enjoying passable proxies and your cards are still the same.

There is a point at which the problem is widespread enough that demand for cards online from sight-unseen retailers is going to dry up like an empty creek. That's the crisis we're all afraid of because that creek is where all the podcasts, web sites, articles, tournament organizers, etc all drink from.

[Dzra]

Even so, we get nowhere insulting people by telling them "spoiled brats" and telling them to "grow up." All that will do is get sparks flying and eventually get the thread locked.

I agree that insults will get us nowhere; however, I feel like I've been quite cordial up until this point, if you'll notice over the last several pages. This guy has finally struck a nerve with his baseless assumption that we are merely trying to rob him of Fun. If this thread got locked up, I don't believe I'd shed too many tears.

[HonorBasquiat]

I didn't bring up morality, show me where I did.



By extension do you think it's okay to support other counterfeiting ventures then?



You're taking this way too personally if this is your conclusion, it is good for the whole community if these cards aren't produced. Many (including myself) have stated that high prices is harming the game but taking recourse by supporting illegal counterfeiting isn't the solution here. If your playgroups don't allow proxies then unfortunately you'll have to find another one.

You initially said "Sigh. Do you understand that Magic the Gathering is a copyright-protected product and such it is ILLEGAL for another to reproduce it and sell it? It isn't about scruples or morality. It is ILLEGAL. There is no "might be doing something unscrupulous", they are doing something ILLEGAL."

In other words, you were saying I shouldn't buy passable proxies because it's against the law. Then I informed you that buying passable proxies isn't breaking any laws. After that, you change your argument from being "I'm breaking the law" to "what I am doing is creating problems I'm trying to solve which is bad".

As far as supporting other counterfeiting ventures, sure. My girlfriend has a fake Louis Vutton belt. I'm not judging her. She's not hurting anyone. You say I have to find another play group, but the reality is I don't. I'll just play with passable proxies.

Maximum C says "There is a point at which the problem is widespread enough that demand for cards online from sight-unseen retailers is going to dry up like an empty creek. That's the crisis we're all afraid of because that creek is where all the podcasts, web sites, articles, tournament organizers, etc all drink from." But that's just more baseless speculation. It certainly hasn't happened yet even though there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fake proxies already out there.

As far as I feel you are robbing my fun, I don't believe that about everyone here. But if you reread the thread, you will hear people saying things like "get a job, I paid for my cards, so why should you be able to play with me with cards that look real" It's just petty selfish nonsense.

[Guie]

It's a bad argument for two reasons. First, not everyone in the world is going to by counterfeits through a third party. Second, just because you directly or indirectly support a business model that might be doing something unscrupulous doesn't mean you are doing something morally wrong. I'll stress my Nike and WalMart example again. Would you judge and shame anyone who bought from these businesses and claim that are responsible for child labor, union suppression, and small business suppression?

MTG doesn't have to have a steep monetary barrier to entry, and it won't when I buy my fake cards. I'll finally be able to have good mana fixing in EDH without having to spend hundreds of dollars.

Bed Decks Palyer, let me get this straight, it's bad and elitist that I'm against children's sweat shops that exploit families? BTW, my Great grandfather did work in a field (he was a black sharecropper in the south) and I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with a big grin on his face. Why don't you tell people who buy packs at Wal Mart that they are part of the problem LGS's face, and they are wrong because they are supporting a business that harms LGS's? Because it would be a stupid argument. You are judging and shaming me because I am potentially supporting a factory that makes cards fake cards, but you refuse to judge and shame people who support businesses and factories that do things that are much worse. How is that not hypocritical?

Bed Decks Palyer has argument A

HonorBasquiat disregards key points of argument A and presents argument B

HonorBasquiat attacks argument B

[Dzra]

It's just petty selfish nonsense.

Buy real Magic cards or make your own proxies, like the rest of us have been doing for years = Petty and Selfish.

Purchase cheap counterfeits, to the detriment of the Magic community as a whole = Totally fine, probably even Just.

[MaximumC]

I'll just play with passable proxies.

* * *

But if you reread the thread, you will hear people saying things like "get a job, I paid for my cards, so why should you be able to play with me with cards that look real" It's just petty selfish nonsense.

Why is it important to you that your proxies are "passable" and "look real" if you are not trying to do something dishonest? (i.e. trick your opponent or trading partner into assuming its the real deal). Have you seen some of the full art proxies people use on transparencies? They're better looking than regular cards!


Buy real Magic cards or make your own proxies, like the rest of us have been doing for years = Petty and Selfish.

Purchase cheap counterfeits, to the detriment of the Magic community as a whole = Totally fine, probably even Just.

You're letting him get under your skin now. He didn't say that buying real cards was petty and selfish, he said that anyone with a problem with him financially supporting counterfeiters is being petty and selfish. Not a whole lot better, I know, but let's be accurate so we don't keep going off into personal attacks.

[HonorBasquiat]

What it comes down to is that I'm not doing anything illegal, I'm not selling or trading the proxy cards as real cards. No one has proven that these proxies will hurt the value of your cards, or LGS's or Wizards. No one has provided evidence to prove anything close to those things happening. Counterfeit yugioh cards, along with Pokemon and baseball cards have existed for years, and they haven't hurt the market or value of the real cards. There are already hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of passable Magic the Gathering proxies "in the wild" and your cards are just fine. I just want to have a near identical MTG experience that others have, except I don't have thousands of dollars to spend. Until you can prove that I'm harming you, or anyone, or gameplay, you are going to just have to deal with it.

[MaximumC]

Until you can prove that I'm harming you, or anyone, or gameplay, you are going to just have to deal with it.

Are you saying that you are convincing people that your counterfeits are real, but that its ok because you do not believe people doing that will cause any problems for Magic?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Warning, incoming staircase effect!

I just realized that there are three other aspects that the undistinguishable fakes have. Oneof them is linked to gameplay, so if the dude sees me, he might have some funny response.

First, if the fakes become widespread, they may have such an effect, that WotC may, in a "Die Sache ist erledigt" manner, definitely abandon any idea of massive reprints of old stuff. Who profits? IDK. Guess who's losing? The players that want real product for cheap, they are losing.
Also, and this is directly linked to the fakes issue: my gaming experience will be hit by the fact that the new cards use all the counter-counterfeits measures. Someone maybe likes the new holostamp, but I find it hideous and the only reason for its existance are the fakers. So here I'm losing.

Second, the Magic circle worked in a strange, yet communal/communital/communist/w-e-the-word way. The cards and money circulated from WotC to lgs to players and back and forth again, mostly remaining in the possession of the MtG community. Even though one may lose money on bad purchases, it was the Timmy-next-door who profited from this and who had the Scrublands for his Scrubsdeck; or it was the lgs who hosted tournaments/gave prize support or it was WotC who made new products. Fakers interrupted this circle, or leeched it, as the money they drain from the community are not sent back in any way; they won't lend you a real deck for GP, they won't build a cavern where the "I buy 800 fake Jaces only for myself, seriously" dudes may play tournaments, and they definitely have only one kind of R&D: how to better swindle the people. Who profits of this? Fakers, for sure, they wouldn't do it if they wouldn't profit. Who's losing? Time will tell. I won't fire of some "baseless assumptions". Otoh, I don't understand why should I take this risk. I'd rather believe my baseless instincts than cry a river over my money lost. Selfish? Yep. I thought it's a standard.

Third, and this goes esp. to HB.
You should understand one thing. If the players of your group directly said that they don't want to play with proxies and fakes, if they decided to not allow them at their table for w/e the stupidest reason they might have, anyone who brings the proxies or fakes to their table, simply CHEATS HIS FRIENDS. It's their right to disallow those objects and it's your duty to obey. If you don't like it, change their mind. If you can't, get out of their table. Nothing else and nothing in between.
They might not realize that you're cheating. And you might argue that what the eyes see the heart does not hurt. But from a higher moral principle, you're the same cheater as a guy that glues Cadaverous Bloom under his chair and pulls it out for the combo turn. Bear this in mind the next time you'd find the urge to learn us of unjusty and immoral world where people wear Nike shoes.


Please, someone lock this thread.

EDIT: Thinking of the last point: if someone is willing to cheat his friends, I'd seriously doubt the innocent reasons behind his purchase of seven gorillion of fake Tarmogoyfs.

[Lemnear]

This thread is still not locked?


@MaximumC
He stated (and I hopefully understand right), that his "friends" are elitist douches who don't let him play with proxies in their LGS events so he wants indistinguishable fakes to trick them. I would look out for new friends in that case, but he rather feeds the counterfeinting industry for tricking his "friends". So sad...


Edit: BDP makes me feel embarassed not being able to speak/write even one staight sentence in czech :/

[HonorBasquiat]

Why is it important to you that your proxies are "passable" and "look real" if you are not trying to do something dishonest? (i.e. trick your opponent or trading partner into assuming its the real deal). Have you seen some of the full art proxies people use on transparencies? They're better looking than regular cards!



You're letting him get under your skin now. He didn't say that buying real cards was petty and selfish, he said that anyone with a problem with him financially supporting counterfeiters is being petty and selfish. Not a whole lot better, I know, but let's be accurate so we don't keep going off into personal attacks.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is a good question. There are several reasons. One of them is because players are familiar with cards that are real or look real, other types of proxies, especially handwritten or sharpie proxies slow down and hinder gameplay because they encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint. Another primary reasons is because I don't see anything morally wrong about deceiving someone about my cards outside of a trade or transaction provided it doesn't affect game play. I know people who on principle don't want to play with fake cards, and they would never let me play with full art proxies, or sharpie proxies. Some of them don't provide reasons but are adamant about them, other people say that you should only be able to play with cards you earned or actually bought, but this is a silly arbitrary rule that doesn't impact gameplay. There are also instances where I will disclose I am playing with proxies, and those people won't care, but I still like my cards looking like real cards because it looks cool.

Earlier someone said that passable proxies ruin the meta because they encourage players to arms race and start playing with stupidly powerful cards, not only can the same be said about regular proxies, but the same could be said about a wealthy player who just chooses to spend a lot of money on powerful cards.

By the way, what I said is, anyone who thinks that I shouldn't be able to play on an equal playing field with them because I didn't spend as much money is being petty. Specifically with the mentality, "you didn't spend $3000, so you don't deserve to play Stoneblade. You can play Stoneblade with crappy obvious proxies, but once it's similar to my $3000 experience, I have to put my foot down because you are having just as much of a MTG experience as me without paying for it. That's not fair." That's just elitist nonsense.

I have heard many people (even in this thread) who have spent thousands of dollars on cards, but have no problem with passable proxies provided they aren't being used to dupe people financially, because they eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entry to play a game (how much $$$ you have) and encourage more competition.

Edit: @Lemnear : Not just LGS events, but even in casual games.