Chains / Waste Not

[alphastryk]

So I've been thinking about the interaction between Chains of Mephistopheles and the new YMTC, Waste Not (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/2014/229fjk2sdalkfeatwk01_en_card_wastenot.jpg). Seems like it could actually be decent, although I love bad Chains decks more than I should.

I've been tinkering around with it, so here's a shell to start with:


4 burning inquiry
3 winds of change
4 faithless looting
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy


4 chains of mephistopheles
4 waste not
4 anvil of bogardan
4 howling mine
4 smallpox

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 badlands
2 cabal pit
4 bloodstained mire
2 swamp
1 mountain
4 blackcleave cliffs
1 barbarian ring


The manabase is horrendous but I love Cabal Pit too much and have no idea how to build one properly for this deck.

Other considerations:

Hymn
Bloodghast
Nether Spirit
Punishing Fire / Grove
Loam

[Darkenslight]

Winds of Change is horrible here. You want to look towards cards like Reforge the Soul and possibly even Chrome Mox, to start the 'fun' on turn 1.

[Final Fortune]

Needs more Pox, Hymn to Tourach and Dark Ritual for a timely ultra combo.

[rockout]

I agree with Darken on winds of change. The core strategy might be interesting since there's a good chance your opponent a difficult time planning his turns ahead with all the discard.

You may want to look at Delirium Skeins

[Malakai]

If you examine the successful combo decks in legacy, one thing that stands out is you can't play bad cards just because you have a combo. In that vein, Chains doesn't actually combo with Waste Not, because you're not going to play bad cards that give your opponents extra cards; those cards are going to be worse than bad without Chains in play.

You can play good cards like:
Thoughtseize
Hymn
Liliana
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Chrome Mox

I'm not at all certain this is what you'd want. I am certain that filling your deck with cards you'd never want to draw in a million years without a certain 4-of in play is not a winning strategy.

[alphastryk]

I never said this deck was good, but maybe enough chaos will work out? Worth starting some discussion I think. Could also give my man Tibalt a try.


4 burning inquiry
3 Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded
4 faithless looting
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy


4 chains of mephistopheles
4 waste not
4 anvil of bogardan
4 howling mine
4 smallpox

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 badlands
2 cabal pit
4 bloodstained mire
2 swamp
1 mountain
4 blackcleave cliffs
1 barbarian ring

[Jables237]

Could Liliana's Caress fit in for decks without many creatures?

[YamiJoey]

Blue for Whispering Madness. Because it's my pet card and I must suggest it whenever possible, and Waste Not and Chains both make it actually look like a good card.

[rufus]

Blue for Whispering Madness. Because it's my pet card and I must suggest it whenever possible, and Waste Not and Chains both make it actually look like a good card.

Alas, Chains of Mephistopholes though cool is bad, and has little synergy with Waste Not.

I also believe that Waste Not either wants to be combined with bulk discard generators like Whispering Madness, Burning Inquiriy or Ill-Gotten Gains in some kind of combo approach, or with something that does discard-linked control like Smallpox.

[alphastryk]

Alas, Chains of Mephistopholes though cool is bad, and has little synergy with Waste Not.

I also believe that Waste Not either wants to be combined with bulk discard generators like Whispering Madness, Burning Inquiriy or Ill-Gotten Gains in some kind of combo approach, or with something that does discard-linked control like Smallpox.

Sure, but I do want to jam chains out there. It's surprisingly hateful.

You'll note I was playing both Burning Inquiry and Smallpox in the deck already...

[rufus]

Sure, but I do want to jam chains out there. It's surprisingly hateful.
And mostly dead against a bunch of the format. I like it too, but it's a sideboard card at best.


You'll note I was playing both Burning Inquiry and Smallpox in the deck already...

Yeah.. though you might want some better graveyard tech like Gravecrawler or Bloodghast to work with both of those.

Meanwhile, Howling Mine and Anvil of Boggardan have some heavy anti-synergy with the disruption aspect of the game plan.

I wonder how reliably it's possible to go off using Dream Cache (a different bad card) and Waste Not as a position/card advantage engine combined with Ill-Gotten Gains,Whispering Madness, and Cephalid Coliseum to force discards. That definitely seems like the sort of thing that could get out of hand quite quickly.

[Jon]

I support the use of Tibalt. I have my pack foil to contribute to this deck.

[Rizso]

If its for casual I can see the appeal but if wanting to be competive I dont believe in a discard deck without The Rack and Shreiking Affliction. They kill your opponent no matter what they discard. And you dont need to play bad cards. Liliana ensnaring bridge hymn etc.

[Mystical_Jackass]

What about running it in a U/B Landstill shell? Just brainstorming some thoughts:

4 Chains
4 Waste Not
4 Standstill

4 Jace Beleren (each player draw/wincon)
4 Vision Skeins (each player draw)
4 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Factory
? Mutavault


I'm just throwing out numbers, but what you think about more of a control/lockdown concept?

[pharmacolite]

How about Wistful Thinking? And I believe life from the loamis decent in this kind of decks,sometimes it's draw three cards.

[Sloshthedark]

I'd start with including a wincondition...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd start with including a wincondition...

It's meant to win in a TurboStasis manner. As such, this deck has bad matchup with Battle of Wits. :wink:

[Rome]

I Like the idea of the deck very much. Its a pure Chaos Deck. But I think it is very possible to kill yourself with this deck. Has somebody some results from testing this deck?

I think without Waste Not this deck does nearly nothing.

[sarahiscute]

hi, below is the deck i created:

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Smallpox Sorcery
4 Dark Ritual Instant
2 Sinkhole Sorcery
3 Anvil of Bogardan
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Liliana's Caress
4 Scrubland Land
2 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage
3 Wasteland Land
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs Land
3 Rishadan Port Land
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 The Abyss

another one different from this (with green): http://deckstats.net/decks/6749/29780-chains-black-white-green/en

[kingtk3]

Has anyone considered urza's guilt? It combos well with both waste not and chains of mephistopheles

[sarahiscute]

hi, kinda quiet for this topic.....pls have a look at my new deck, hope we can brain storm and create a deck for tournament. :

spells (29)
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 The Rack
1 Crucible of Worlds

enchantments (4)
4 Chains of Mephistopheles

creatures (4)
4 Dark Confidant

lands (21)
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Rishadan Port

planeswaler (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

61 Cards

[thefreakaccident]

You want more lands to run mox diamond smoothly. 26 minimum for that card in my experience, sometimes more unless you're a truly all-in strategy. Such decks are usually too inconsistent however.

Didn't they essentially create a critter version of this in spirit of the labyrinth? Just a thought.


Has it just been decided that waste-not is not worth the slots it would fill? If so, I feel wizards botched that one. It should've been 1cc, that way it would at least get played.

[sarahiscute]

26 lands...thanks for telling...i will try to add more....

i feel like taking out liliana of the veil...and pump in lands..

[Balling like a fool]

I've been testing various iterations of Chains/Anvil for a while now, in rock, BUG, Esper, and every 2 color combination in between, and I've really found a Loam shell to be the best home for it. Chains by itself I can see being good without Loam, but with Anvil, Loam is too perfect to ignore.

Wasteland is as good if not better than discard in most cases, regardless of whether you have your lock established. Loam also allows you to search out Anvil via Buried Ruin, which, with or without E. Tutor, allows you to run fewer copies of Anvil. If you don't already have a Chains on board, Anvil is pretty terrible usually, and isn't something you want to be drawing into imo.

If you're in BUG colors, recurring Cephalid Coliseum is nuts.

Counterspells don't seem fantastic and cantrips are kind of a Nonbo, so blue to me seems almost exclusively for things to make the opponent draw, Deep Analysis seems like it can be good too.

Bob looks good on paper, as do Mox Diamonds, but Bob plays out bad in most cases and Moxes seem unnecessary, as ramping into a t1 Chains really isn't as compelling as it sounds most of the time. I could see running Moxes in a BUG build for Intuition.

I usually don't feel like I'm doing much with White, I've been using it for pretty much E. Tutor and swords, but it seems better than splashing blue to me. Straight G/B maybe but that almost definitely means running more Anvil, which sounds much worse than an E. Tutor toolbox.

Haven't even touched waste not, doesn't seem right in the lists I've been messing with.

Anywho, I think this is the last build I was running.



3 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Oblivion Ring

2 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Vengeful Pharaoh

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Crop Rotation
3 Entomb

3 Raven's Crime
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Life from the Loam
2 Smallpox

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
2 Buried Ruin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith