Building to Elves! and manabase help

[Vastros]

I've been building up Gb Elves! and have all the required cards except lands. Could someone help me with a budget manabase to use until I can afford the rest of the fetches/cradles/duals? So far I have

1 wooded foothills, 1 misty rainforest, 1 Dryad arbor, and 15 forest

The list I'm building to is

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Misty Rainforest

Im not sure of the balance of swamps/forest to use with only two fetches, and the validity of shocks in Elves!.

Any help would be amazing, as im terrible with manabases.

[FTW]

Gaea's Cradle is pretty important. If you can get even one, just play it and 4 Crop Rotation.

With only 2 fetches, this would be my manabase:

1 Dryad Arbor
17 Forest

Shocks are fine since this is an aggressive deck. You don't care about losing 2 life. But even if you have an Overgrown Tomb, you're not going to see it with any consistency with only two fetches. You'd want at least 6. So just play monogreen for now. Elves absolutely needs an untapped green mana source on turn 1 and turn 2, so any attempt to run "bad duals" or multiple basic swamps is just going to manascrew you from playing the very critical mana elves on turn 1 and turn 2. If you own Deathrite Shamans, you can run 2 fetches (and 2 fewer basic forests) just to profit off the Shaman mana ability, but monogreen without Shamans is probably better.

[Vastros]

SIDEBOARD
1 Natural Order
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Mindbreak Trap

This (and DRS) are why i need the black. I'm running something close to John Harduvel's list from SCG Oakland.

[FTW]

What's the list? Lol. That would help.

Although my point is you may want to reconsider your list if you do not have the manabase to support it. A monogreen Elf deck without some of those black disruption tools (DRS, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize) will perform better than a Bg Elf deck with a poor manabase. Elves simply cannot afford to trip over casting spells. You have to curve out smoothly.

Some decks can make due with inferior manabases. The problem unique to Elves! is that:
1) you absolutely need each land to ETB untapped and provide green mana
2) you need a critical number of black sources or ways to find black sources early (turn 4 Thoughtseize FTloss)
3) DRS needs a critical number of fetchlands to be worth playing over other 1cc mana-elves without damaging your mana engine
Otherwise the deck simply just does not do what you want it to do.

If you're deadset on playing Bg Elves with budget mana, I suppose you could start with a manabase like this


Wooded Foothills
Misty Rainforest
Dryad Arbor
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Llanowar Wastes
6 Forest


Lorwyn duals are the next best thing to Bayous/fetches since they will always enter untapped when it counts. After that, I think shocks and pains are your next best budget choices. The lifeloss isn't ideal, but you're banking on the fact that Elves curves out faster than most decks so it shouldn't matter. Other BG duals would ETB tapped on turn 1, which is bad. Swamps are by far the worst since the fetches you own cannot find them and since they do not produce green mana.

Due to the low number of fetches, I'd be tempted to cut some DRS for Llanowars/Elvish Mystic. Traditional lists cut the Llanowar slots for DRS for utility and they can afford to do so because they run so many fetches that between both graveyards, DRS should always tap for mana. But your list can't guarantee that. You should curve out better with more Llanowar-type elves. Also, Arbor Elf should be replaced by Llanowar clones because you won't consistently have a SwampForest to untap to make it better than a Llanowar.

[Vastros]

What's the list? Lol. That would help.

Although my point is you may want to reconsider your list if you do not have the manabase to support it. A monogreen Elf deck without some of those black disruption tools (DRS, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize) will perform better than a Bg Elf deck with a poor manabase. Elves simply cannot afford to trip over casting spells. You have to curve out smoothly.

Some decks can make due with inferior manabases. The problem unique to Elves! is that:
1) you absolutely need each land to ETB untapped and provide green mana
2) you need a critical number of black sources or ways to find black sources early (turn 4 Thoughtseize FTloss)
3) DRS needs a critical number of fetchlands to be worth playing over other 1cc mana-elves without damaging your mana engine
Otherwise the deck simply just does not do what you want it to do.

If you're deadset on playing Bg Elves with budget mana, I suppose you could start with a manabase like this


Wooded Foothills
Misty Rainforest
Dryad Arbor
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Llanowar Wastes
6 Forest


Lorwyn duals are the next best thing to Bayous/fetches since they will always enter untapped when it counts. After that, I think shocks and pains are your next best budget choices. The lifeloss isn't ideal, but you're banking on the fact that Elves curves out faster than most decks so it shouldn't matter. Other BG duals would ETB tapped on turn 1, which is bad. Swamps are by far the worst since the fetches you own cannot find them and since they do not produce green mana.

Due to the low number of fetches, I'd be tempted to cut some DRS for Llanowars/Elvish Mystic. Traditional lists cut the Llanowar slots for DRS for utility and they can afford to do so because they run so many fetches that between both graveyards, DRS should always tap for mana. But your list can't guarantee that. You should curve out better with more Llanowar-type elves. Also, Arbor Elf should be replaced by Llanowar clones because you won't consistently have a SwampForest to untap to make it better than a Llanowar.

Here is my list

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6254&d=235946

Im also looking to fit in Ruric Thar Somewhere...

[FTW]

K. And you only have 2 fetches and 0 Bayous and 0 Cradles but you can get Overgrown Tombs? Can you get pains and Gilt-Leaf Palaces too? Or are you just limited to shocks and basics?

If you're limited to shocks and basics and those 2 fetches, then I think you're SOL. Sorry. But Elves! just should not have multiple basic swamps. It will be terrible for testing since it will not play out representatively and not give you a good idea of how the deck plays. You really need lots of green mana.

If you can scrap together something like the budget manabase I posted above, awesome. It's very different from the standard manabase but it'll do what you want it to do and most of those lands are cheap. Then, make a slight maindeck change: -3 Deathrite Shaman, + 3 Llanowar Elves.

Why? Historically, Elves! always ran 4 Llanowars (or 4 Arbor Elf). They cut down to 1 to fit in Deathrite and it works only because those lists play a whopping TEN fetchlands. Since in Elf decks mana > utility, without the fetchlands you simply cannot afford to run so many Deathrites. More often than not you'll just want something that taps for green mana over the other abilities. I know you want to keep the same list, but there really is no sense in playing 4 Deathrite in Elves! with only 2 fetchlands. Sorry. When you get more fetches then you can add them back in.

You can play Ruric Thar in the exact same manabase. No need for any red-producing lands. Ruric Thar is something that you will only cast when your engine is online so you can Natural Order into it, Zenith into it, or cast it off Birchlore or Deathrite mana. That should be sufficient.

[Vastros]

Thats what I'm gonna have to do. Thanks SO much =)

I am definately looking to build up to the fetches/cradles/bayous but right now just isnt financially right. I'll slowly get them, fetch here and there.

[danyul]

One thing to keep in mind - running non-Forests for lands will occasionally make your Quirion Rangers very awkward. Also, there's no shame in running 4 Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid until you can get your hands on some Cradles.

[BadLegacyPlayer]

Isnt this casual? If you are playing casual you can skip getting the cradles and just get 4 fastbonds but the problem is finding people who will play against you. And if you want to make people super mad, you should get the 4 cradles as well. Under the new legend rule, it becomes seriously broken. I dont know I thought this was casual. That mana list looks like The list from BBD video on star city games. I just know not many casual players play duals.