[EDH] Wort, the Raidmother: Conspiring Against You [Archive]

Davran

01-14-2014, 01:05 PM

General:
Wort, the Raidmother

Creatures:
Mogg War Marshal
Sakura-tribe Elder
Scavenging Ooze
Vexing Shusher
Zhur-Taa Druid
Eternal Witness
Vithian Renegades
Boartusk Liege
Ogre Battledriver
Oracle of Mul Daya
Acidic Slime
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Siege-gang Commander
Charmbreaker Devils
Dragon Broodmother
Inferno Titan
Rampaging Baloths
Avenger of Zendikar
Giant Adephage
Hornet Queen

Instants:
Artifact Mutation
Comet Storm
Signal the Clans
Beast Within
Chaos Warp
Chord of Calling

Sorcery:
Devil's Play
Gelatinous Genesis
Tempt with Vengeance
Clan Defiance
Firecat Blitz
Hull Breach
Regrowth
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Harmonize
Past in Flames
Skyshroud Claim
Collective Unconscious

Artifacts:
Mana Vault
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Ashnod's Altar
Chromatic Lantern
Oblivion Stone
Thran Dynamo
Mirari

Enchatments:
Earthcraft
Goblin Bombardment
Sylvan Library
Beastmaster Ascension
Hammer of Purphoros
Mana Echoes
Parallel Lives
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Doubling Season

Planeswalkers:
Garruk Wildspeaker
Sarkhan Vol
Xenagos, the Reveler

Lands:
Command Tower
Copperline Gorge
Dryad Arbor
Fire-lit Thicket
7 Forest
Grove of the Burnwillows
Gruul Turf
Jund Panorama
Karplusan Forest
Kessig Wolf Run
Khalni Garden
Kher Keep
Mossfire Valley
Mosswort Bridge
7 Mountain
Mountain Valley
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Raging Ravine
Rootbound Crag
Stomping Ground
Strip Mine
Taiga
Temple of the False God
Winding Canyons
Wooded Foothills
Yavimaya Hollow

The deck has two main game plans:

1. Tokens. Tokens everywhere. Many of the creatures and spells produce some number of tokens, which can be cashed in for cards or just swung into the red zone. Burn at the Stake and Purphoros, God of the Forge conveniently turn tokens into damage as well.

2. Conspiring spells for fun and profit. The large number of tokens provides the ability to generate numerous instances of conspire, which can set up a fireball to the face for victory.

I've deliberately excluded the Kiki + Conscripts "combo" from the deck for being both boring and predictable. If you're looking for easy combo wins, by all means find some room.

Maybeboard:
Mana Geyser
One Dozen Eyes
Zealous Conscripts
Sprout Swarm
Green Sun's Zenith
Red Sun's Zenith
Awakening Zone
Harrow
Primal Growth
Polis Crusher

Wishlist:
Imperial Recruiter
Temple of Abandon
Xenagos, God of Revels

Pimp progress:
Foil: 49/100
Not Foilable: 5/100

TsumiBand

01-15-2014, 09:13 AM

Davran

01-15-2014, 09:36 AM

I'd sneak Comet Storm in there. Also, Mana Echoes is stupidly good in such a deck. Just casting Wort nets you :9: colorless; spells like Gelatinous Genesis, One Dozen Eyes, Tempt with Vengeance, Crush of Wurms, and so on… pretty much incredible.

So is Xenagos's ultimate just not even part of the allure of running it? I know ultimates are typically throw-aways, but I figured I'd ask because (…and I might be paranoid in this…) I just hate exiling my own things in EDH, that H is capital for a reason :( That's just me being weird, so if you find it works out, so much the better I guess.

Very interesting list. I've got a WTRm list sitting around here somewhere as well, and I do enjoy that deck something fierce.

Comet Storm is probably just better than Banefire since it's instant speed and all. I'll make that swap for sure.

Holy balls is Mana Echoes the perfect card for this deck! I'll definitely have to pick up a copy next time I order cards.

As for Xenagos, yeah...his ultimate might as well not even be on the card. I've included him because he makes red and green tokens and piles of mana...which are two things this deck wants a ton of. I mean, depending on the stage of the game it could easily +1 for 8+ mana, which is pretty good for not even really trying.

I waffled for a while on One Dozen Eyes - this is actually the first EDH deck I've built where I had a pile of cards larger than the number of slots in the list. It's definitely on the bench should something else under-preform over time.

So...yeah:

- Banefire, + Comet Storm

TsumiBand

01-15-2014, 02:11 PM

Comet Storm is probably just better than Banefire since it's instant speed and all. I'll make that swap for sure.

Holy balls is Mana Echoes the perfect card for this deck! I'll definitely have to pick up a copy next time I order cards.

As for Xenagos, yeah...his ultimate might as well not even be on the card. I've included him because he makes red and green tokens and piles of mana...which are two things this deck wants a ton of. I mean, depending on the stage of the game it could easily +1 for 8+ mana, which is pretty good for not even really trying.

I waffled for a while on One Dozen Eyes - this is actually the first EDH deck I've built where I had a pile of cards larger than the number of slots in the list. It's definitely on the bench should something else under-preform over time.

So...yeah:

- Banefire, + Comet Storm

Anecdotally speaking, I don't think I've ever resolved One Dozen Eyes and lost, but that's correlation assuming causation. It's a hefty mana cost even for this deck, especially if it's anything like the last time I sat down at the table and no one allows Vernal Bloom or Vorinclex to live on your side of the battlefield, but it happens to work well with the kinds of things this deck wants to do; have a shitpot of guys for Conspire and/or just go to Fuckyou Town with a ton of guys and any number of creature enhancing effects; Craterhoof Behemoth, Beastmaster Ascension, any generic Overrun effect, and so on.

EDIT: I'm not positive that I kept up on the decklist, so this list might be a little behind the times, but this is my (mostly) current WTRM build. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/edhwort-the-raidmother/) I'll abstain from polluting the thread with the whole list. I think some of the stated goals of my build are a little different than yours and I do have some incidental infinite combos which I may just take out, but then sometimes I dunno, games just need to be over yanno?

Davran

01-15-2014, 02:44 PM

Anecdotally speaking, I don't think I've ever resolved One Dozen Eyes and lost, but that's correlation assuming causation. It's a hefty mana cost even for this deck, especially if it's anything like the last time I sat down at the table and no one allows Vernal Bloom or Vorinclex to live on your side of the battlefield, but it happens to work well with the kinds of things this deck wants to do; have a shitpot of guys for Conspire and/or just go to Fuckyou Town with a ton of guys and any number of creature enhancing effects; Craterhoof Behemoth, Beastmaster Ascension, any generic Overrun effect, and so on.

The trick is finding room for all of this stuff. I think we need super dragon highlander or whatever where the deck has 150 cards or something. I dunno. I'm sure something will turn out to be a big vortex of suck and I'll be looking for a replacement.

EDIT: I'm not positive that I kept up on the decklist, so this list might be a little behind the times, but this is my (mostly) current WTRM build. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/edhwort-the-raidmother/) I'll abstain from polluting the thread with the whole list. I think some of the stated goals of my build are a little different than yours and I do have some incidental infinite combos which I may just take out, but then sometimes I dunno, games just need to be over yanno?

Thanks for the link. For whatever reason I can't view tappedout at work (apparently that crosses some sort of line into "games" territory for our net nanny), so I'll have to take a look later.

The problem I have with going infinite is that I can't help myself from doing it. Why do something janky like conspire a Chaos Warp on my own tokens when I can just Kiki + Conscripts the table to death? Once I get to that point, the deck slowly becomes all about finding and assembling the combo...and I get bored pretty fast. Not to mention that my opponents aren't all that happy about it either. Of course, that means that I'm mostly stuck in the 2 hour long game that's going nowhere fast...but it's quite rare for that to happen around here.

That said, the list in the OP is one Cloudstone Curio and Aluren away from "infinite" town (Burning-Tree Emissary and some other dork generate "infinite" mana) or one card off the Kiki + Conscripts plan. You could also add Maze of Ith for Argothian Elder to go nuts with some land that produces 2 mana or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Deserted Temple. If that's your thing, go nuts.

Amon Amarth

01-15-2014, 09:51 PM

Davran

01-16-2014, 09:48 AM

I'd like to say a little on the unassuming Earthcraft. I didn't play it in my token spam decks because it looked underwhelming. Well, I gave it a try one day and holy fuckballs is that card sweet. You just get so much mileage out of it and you don't even need to go infinite with it to go nuts with the card. It's crazy good. Find a spot for that guy.

I really want to fit it in here (it's at the top of the maybeboard), but I'm not sure what to cut.

It might be better than Seething Song because it theoretically hangs around for longer...but I'm not sure. Maybe Mana Vault is the cut as the "worst" of the mana rocks?

Amon Amarth

01-16-2014, 08:52 PM

I never played with Manamorphose or Seething Song but those cards look pretty weak here. Vault seems fine since it ramps hard and you can buy it back later on. Those are the first two I'd look at. :)

TsumiBand

01-17-2014, 12:13 AM

I never played with Manamorphose or Seething Song but those cards look pretty weak here. Vault seems fine since it ramps hard and you can buy it back later on. Those are the first two I'd look at. :)

Yeah I agree -- the handful of one-shot rituals I tried were all pretty disappointing. Getting 4 mana + two cards for 2 mana, or getting ten Red for 3 mana does seem on its face to be good - but really, your mana production is coming from having dorks to tap.
Consider that, much like Aether Vial and Show and Tell can be considered "ramp-by-proxy" for their ability to cheat creatures with a higher mana cost into play than you actually pay, Conspire can be thought of as an analog for "Tap two creatures you control: double the mana in your mana pool" if you're using it to copy spells, in particular X spells. So a ritual effect is second banana to something like a spell that retrieves or creates a creature, because there's no upper bound to the mana they could represent.

In particular if you're playing a list that has Mana Echoes, those spells like Gelatinous Genesis or Goblin Offensive are going to provide so much more mana than any ritual, even if it is just colorless, and really that's where the biggest crunch comes in for this deck (or at least, *my* version of WTRm seems to prefer Mana Echoes to rituals) is figuring out where all that bloody colorless mana is meant to come from.

Davran

01-17-2014, 11:17 AM

You both make good points RE: the rituals. I'll try out Earthcraft in the Seething Song slot.

I'm still hoping to pick up a Mana Echoes. It's the perfect card for the deck.

Amon Amarth

01-17-2014, 03:59 PM

Echoes was another card I never played until recently. Card is pretty sweet with tokens. It gets pretty silly really quick. I also recommend it, perhaps in the slot occupied by Manamorphose?

Davran

01-18-2014, 08:39 AM

Echoes was another card I never played until recently. Card is pretty sweet with tokens. It gets pretty silly really quick. I also recommend it, perhaps in the slot occupied by Manamorphose?

Yeah, that's where it's going to go as soon as I can pick one up. Card seems excellent for the deck.

FTW

01-19-2014, 11:25 AM

TsumiBand

01-19-2014, 12:06 PM

Play Zealous Conscripts. It's a good card. Stealing Planeswalker ultimates and fatties is fun. If you don't want to play the Kiki combo, then just don't target Conscripts with Kiki LOLOL. No one forces you to use a combo just because it exists in your list (unless they Mindslaver you I suppose).

Aye, good cards are good. The only thing I'd say against this is that with too many monocolored creatures you do run the risk of having the wrong color if creatures for your Conspire to actually work. Since you can't tap Red guys for Green spells, it can reduce the effectiveness of the commander a little. That's rarely a reason not to run a Good Card, but it is a thing that can happen.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Davran

01-21-2014, 08:32 AM

Play Zealous Conscripts. It's a good card. Stealing Planeswalker ultimates and fatties is fun. If you don't want to play the Kiki combo, then just don't target Conscripts with Kiki LOLOL. No one forces you to use a combo just because it exists in your list (unless they Mindslaver you I suppose).

Yeah...I should probably be running it somewhere in here. It's just so...predictable. Also, I don't run very many sacrifice outlets...so stealing some fatty is less good than usual. There's also the little problem of not knowing what to cut...

Quick change to the list:

- Forest, + Winding Canyons

Canyons should have been in all along...for some reason I passed right over it when building the mana base.

So far, this deck is getting nothing from Born of the Gods...although that minotaur that copies a creature when he is untapped is interesting, especially with Earthcraft around to tap him first.

TsumiBand

01-21-2014, 09:14 AM

Yeah...I should probably be running it somewhere in here. It's just so...predictable. Also, I don't run very many sacrifice outlets...so stealing some fatty is less good than usual. There's also the little problem of not knowing what to cut...

Quick change to the list:

- Forest, + Winding Canyons

Canyons should have been in all along...for some reason I passed right over it when building the mana base.

So far, this deck is getting nothing from Born of the Gods...although that minotaur that copies a creature when he is untapped is interesting, especially with Earthcraft around to tap him first.

There might be a few goodies in BotG. Unravel the Aether - 1G, Instant, Choose target artifact/enchantment. Its owner shuffles it into his or her library - could potentially be a playable way to tuck anything from an artifact commander to just some terrible enchantment thing. Though if anyone in your meta builds against one of the Gods from Theros block they might take it personal, heh.

If you do end up getting a Mana Echoes, Fated Intervention might be an okay card. There's not a ton of draw in your list (on purpose?) so at least, one could scry a little while putting 6 power on the board? If Conspired, so much the better.

Good call on that Minotaur though, I didn't even realize that it's kind of a weird Kiki-Jiki. 1 less to cast, easier to cast, however much more conditional to activate, but can target legendary creatures… yeah, there's probably some rofl in that copter. I can dig it.

Davran

01-21-2014, 09:32 AM

There might be a few goodies in BotG. Unravel the Aether - 1G, Instant, Choose target artifact/enchantment. Its owner shuffles it into his or her library - could potentially be a playable way to tuck anything from an artifact commander to just some terrible enchantment thing. Though if anyone in your meta builds against one of the Gods from Theros block they might take it personal, heh.

Deglamer exists now too. I almost ran it over Hull Breach, except that card is pure value and an excellent conspire target. The most likely slot for either of the tuck cards is Vithian Renegades, except the Renegades play better with both Wort and Kiki.

If you do end up getting a Mana Echoes, Fated Intervention might be an okay card. There's not a ton of draw in your list (on purpose?) so at least, one could scry a little while putting 6 power on the board? If Conspired, so much the better.

There's just not a ton of draw to be had in these colors. I could run Wheel of Fortune or Memory Jar I suppose...although I'm not sure they interact all that well with the rest of the deck. Fated Intervention might be worth it though, for sure.

Good call on that Minotaur though, I didn't even realize that it's kind of a weird Kiki-Jiki. 1 less to cast, easier to cast, however much more conditional to activate, but can target legendary creatures… yeah, there's probably some rofl in that copter. I can dig it.

Yeah, it seems like it was made for this format. It would probably be pretty fun in a UR shell with like Pemmin's Aura and other wacky stuff like that too.

TsumiBand

01-21-2014, 11:00 AM

Deglamer exists now too.

Ohh hmmm, forgot about Deglamer. Well, meh.

There's just not a ton of draw to be had in these colors. I could run Wheel of Fortune or Memory Jar I suppose...although I'm not sure they interact all that well with the rest of the deck. Fated Intervention might be worth it though, for sure.

Yeah obviously RG draw spells are a little lacking, but there are still some very solid things that could be in the deck -- I just assumed you were trying to something something Spirit of the Format, or something. Greater Good and Momentous Fall are all but EDH staples, Soul's Majesty is derpy enough to go in any deck with big Green mans, and Collective Unconscious is real good as well.

Red's draw is a little weird but not bad. I think I start every Red list for EDH with Faithless Looting now, and Wild Guess is not the *literal* worst card in the world (I think I cut my copy a long time ago though, even if my current list doesn't reflect that). Apart from that you start getting into Wheel effects, which are… well they're Wheel effects, they are what they are :P

Davran

01-21-2014, 11:45 AM

Yeah obviously RG draw spells are a little lacking, but there are still some very solid things that could be in the deck -- I just assumed you were trying to something something Spirit of the Format, or something. Greater Good and Momentous Fall are all but EDH staples, Soul's Majesty is derpy enough to go in any deck with big Green mans, and Collective Unconscious is real good as well.

Red's draw is a little weird but not bad. I think I start every Red list for EDH with Faithless Looting now, and Wild Guess is not the *literal* worst card in the world (I think I cut my copy a long time ago though, even if my current list doesn't reflect that). Apart from that you start getting into Wheel effects, which are… well they're Wheel effects, they are what they are :P

Spirit of the Format (TM) be damned. I want a deck that's fun to pilot. To me, a deck that's fun to pilot does more than one "thing", and won't typically wind up as the Archenemy (TM) or that guy that just sits there doing nothing. This list is definitely getting there.

Greater Good might be better in a deck with more fat. I have some dudes that fit the bill, but I'm mostly making tokens. It's a pretty big game with Giant Adephage I guess...but if I'm smashing in with that guy to the point of extra copies to sacrifice for cards Greater Good is probably a little win-more.

Momentous Fall is a card I always pull out of my box-o-jank when I'm brewing something green, and I always end up putting it right back. That said, casting this with Conspire could be all kinds of great.

Soul's Majesty is kind of meh here, I think. There aren't that many targets in the deck that make it "worth it" to spend 5 mana on this spell.

Collective Unconscious seems strong. Why the heck didn't I know this card existed? I think this could be the best draw spell for the deck, so I'll have to pick up a copy. I guess it's time to break down and put in an order somewhere. Damn LGS and their poor selection of random old rare cards...

As for the red card draw, I'm pretty meh on it here. Faithless Looting is a good magic card, but ultimately I don't think I need two cards that badly. Same with Wild Guess. The various Wheels are kind of meh too.

Davran

01-24-2014, 11:27 AM

Broke down and ordered a couple cards:

Out:
Manamorphose
Recollect

In:
Mana Echoes
Collective Unconscious

Mana Echoes is a much better Manamorphose with more potential for abuse. Overall this is a pretty easy switch.

It was harder to find a cut for Collective Unconscious. I didn't want to cut a creature because those are increasingly important in the list and interact directly with Collective Unconscious. That left the non-creature spells. Up for consideration were Recollect, Crucible of Worlds, and Sarkahn Vol. I kept Crucible around because of the unique effect and the potential need for protection on some of our lands. Sarkhan Vol is a case of me just wanting to play with the card. His +1 can be occasionally relevant, so whatever. Recollect is essentially a 3rd copy of Regrowth/Eternal Witness, so it seemed like the best choice.

Davran

01-29-2014, 10:32 AM

TsumiBand

01-29-2014, 02:24 PM

Born of the Gods Review:

Courser of Kruphix - A worse Oracle of Mul Daya that I don't think the deck really wants.

Fall of the Hammer - I'm liking the direction WotC is going with the whole "fight" mechanic, and this is probably the best iteration yet. That said, it's somewhat situational and pretty lack-luster in a deck full of tokens. It's pretty hilarious with Acidic Slime though...

Fated Conflagration - This card has some appeal as a potential Conspire target, but it ultimately misses for me as it can't go to your opponent's face.

Fated Intervention - Another potential Conspire target, and with a little more juice than its red counterpart. I think this card is right on the cusp of being included, but I'm not sure where. It may very well find its way in after some more testing with the deck.

Felhide Spiritbinder - This guy is interesting, and has a high potential to make for some crazy plays. That said, I don't think this is the place for him.

Hunter's Prowess - I'd run Soul's Majesty or Momentous Fall before I ran this...but it does exist.

Peregrination - An interesting Cultivate variant. I'd run Skyshroud Claim or Explosive Vegetation before this.

Satyr Firedancer - Seems pretty win-more.

Unravel the Aether - Deglamer almost made the list, so it's functional reprint is right in the same boat.

Whims of the Fates - Now this is a card to Conspire! Too bad it's symmetrical...

Overall I'm not impressed with this set for this deck. There are a couple things that may make the cut at some point, but there's really nothing I'm itching to pick up and jam in here. Ah well, there's always Journey to Nyx.

Yeah, not sure that I like this set for Wort TRM.

Archetype of Aggression might be tangentially reasonable. It's a low CC dude that plays well with a massive token strategy; our creatures all have trample, while the opponent's creatures cannot have trample. Trample, along with flying and haste and other random shit, are kind of all over the place in EDH, so it's easy to overlook it when throwing guys in a deck, but when a 1/1 Goblin Warrior can happily chump block a Darksteel Colossus, Eldrazi, other otherwise typically angry trample-happy beater it could make a difference. The last game of EDH I played, I lost to a pumpable commander that just trampled over, so maybe I'm still recovering from psychological damages and overrating the card :) I don't think it's an auto-in, but in a deck with lots of expendable guys, it does neutralize an effect that people take for granted. Kind of.

It's probably not worth the trouble. Ha. I don't like too many mono-colored guys in this list anyway, unless they are the result of a Conspired Gelatinous Genesis.

Also @ Fall of the Hammer -- what makes it more playable than Pit Fight? I don't think I like Fight spells in Constructed outside of casual play (and even then not even EDH casual, I mean like… 'Let's Play Magic Lesson #5' casual) but perhaps I am missing something. Also whytf doesn't it just say 'fight' on it, hah.

Davran

01-29-2014, 02:45 PM

Also @ Fall of the Hammer -- what makes it more playable than Pit Fight? I don't think I like Fight spells in Constructed outside of casual play (and even then not even EDH casual, I mean like… 'Let's Play Magic Lesson #5' casual) but perhaps I am missing something. Also whytf doesn't it just say 'fight' on it, hah.

Fall of the Hammer is interesting because their guy doesn't fight back like it does with Pit Fight. That alone removes the potential 2-for-1 the "fight" cards often represent (i.e. you trade dudes, and also you cast Pit Fight to make it happen). I suppose a better nickname for this effect would be "bully" or whatever. If you can pair it up with deathtouch, it's more or less a red Murder for one less mana. Conspiring it could be pretty great too.

Ultimately though I agree with you - this type of effect is likely stuck at the casual tables with the people who really want to be able to make their Dinosaur eat your Goat or whatever.

TsumiBand

01-29-2014, 03:07 PM

Fall of the Hammer is interesting because their guy doesn't fight back like it does with Pit Fight. That alone removes the potential 2-for-1 the "fight" cards often represent (i.e. you trade dudes, and also you cast Pit Fight to make it happen). I suppose a better nickname for this effect would be "bully" or whatever. If you can pair it up with deathtouch, it's more or less a red Murder for one less mana. Conspiring it could be pretty great too.

Ultimately though I agree with you - this type of effect is likely stuck at the casual tables with the people who really want to be able to make their Dinosaur eat your Goat or whatever.

Oh shit I didn't even realize that was the difference. It's one-sided!

That *does* make it funny with deathtouch guys. And Conspire. But it's still only cute.

However, I now have a terrible desire to build a suuuuuperjank Constructed deck with deathtouch guys and every 'playable' Fight-like spell in existence. Jund Fight Club! Welcome home, Archetype of Finality!

Davran

02-12-2014, 03:28 PM

Minor update time.

This deck has been a blast to play. So much so that for the first time ever I'm actually trying to pimp a deck out. Incidentally, when the fuck did crap common foils become so damn expensive?

I'm looking to make a few changes, but I'm not sure where to go.

1. Argothian Elder is cute, but ultimately useless. The card essentially needs to have Nykthos stapled to it to be actually worth its casting cost, and no one in their right mind would let me untap with that in play ever. Untapping a random 2 lands here or there has been semi-helpful, but it's certainly an effect I can live without.

2. Fungal Reaches has never done anything other than be strip mined or sit there and awkwardly produce :1:. I'm finding that this deck wants to be tapped out more often than not, so even when I can charge it up I don't really want to. I'm just going to switch it out for another basic forest and call it a day.

As for the Argothian Elder slot...in a perfect world I would just replace this with Imperial Recruiter. Except this is a casual format that I don't get to play nearly as much as I would like to, so dropping $100 for one card is a little out of the budget at the moment. That leaves a few less-good options, the best of which I think is Chord of Calling. It's instant speed and interacts favorably with our general and token theme.

So:

- Fungal Reaches
Argothian Elder

+ Forest
Chord of Calling

Amon Amarth

02-12-2014, 09:08 PM

This deck has been a blast to play. So much so that for the first time ever I'm actually trying to pimp a deck out. Incidentally, when the fuck did crap common foils become so damn expensive?

Circa 2010-ish if I remember correctly.

The changes look pretty good. I must have overlooked that you didn't have Chord in there for some reason. Card is pretty sweet.

Mnemon

03-02-2014, 05:44 PM

Dragon Broodmother creates red and green tokens every upkeep. Have you considered it?

Shabbaman

03-03-2014, 08:23 AM

When you go with Mana Echoes, there's no reason not to run Sprout Swarm. Not that there was a good reason to go without Sprout Swarm to begin with, but hey... I wouldn't leave home without In the Web of War as well. As for good stuff to Conspire, what about some recursion like Nostalgic Dreams and Creeping Renaissance (is it possible to conspire a Flashbacked spell?). Recently I came across Explosive Revelation. It's quite the crap card, but I noticed it does cantrip.

Davran

03-03-2014, 09:28 AM

Dragon Broodmother creates red and green tokens every upkeep. Have you considered it?

Well I have now...

It seems like deserves a spot in here somewhere. Interestingly, the devour mode of the tokens would actually make a reasonable back-up plan if the whole conspire thing isn't working out. I'll definitely have to pick one up and find some room.

When you go with Mana Echoes, there's no reason not to run Sprout Swarm. Not that there was a good reason to go without Sprout Swarm to begin with, but hey... I wouldn't leave home without In the Web of War as well. As for good stuff to Conspire, what about some recursion like Nostalgic Dreams and Creeping Renaissance (is it possible to conspire a Flashbacked spell?). Recently I came across Explosive Revelation. It's quite the crap card, but I noticed it does cantrip.

Sprout Swarm could be good...I guess I never realized that card is an instant.

I have the creature version of In the Web of War with Ogre Battledriver since creatures are more relevant to my interests with this deck. I'm not sure I have a ton of room to jam both in there...although it might be worth it to try anyway.

As for recursion, I'm currently packing Regrowth, Eternal Witness, Charmbreaker Devils, and Past in Flames. I'm not really a fan of Nostalgic Dreams here because I rarely have stuff I want to pitch. I think that's more of a "combo" deck card. Creeping Renaissance doesn't really do all that much here as the only reasonable permanent type I could name would be "creature", and I'm not sure how useful that is.

As for conspiring flashback, I'm pretty sure you can do that (Disclaimer: Not a judge). Conspire reads "As you cast the spell..." and Flashback reads "You may cast this spell from your graveyard..." so in theory you can conspire a flashbacked spell.

I have a copy of Explosive Revelation in my box-o-EDH jank, but I've never put it in a deck. My luck with high variance cards is historically pretty terrible (i.e. I've never once kept whatever card I cast Gamble for), so I generally leave them out of my decks.

As long as I'm here, some thoughts:

/aside

I was able to get a game in at FNM vs. Azami (ugh) and Rafiq (also ugh). Apparently the Azami deck was this player's "casual" deck...so I guess I don't want to know what the "competitive" one looks like. According to him, not running Mind Over Matter makes it fair or something. Whatever. Anyway, the point of this whole thing is that I ended up taking down the table without conspiring a single spell, which was somewhat of a surprise for me. In hindsight, I was likely able to win because the Azami player would apparently rather main phase draw cards and tap out instead of leaving his Voidmage Prodigy up, which allowed me to get in plenty of beats.

Sarkhan Vol was an MVP this game, allowing me to "borrow" some Rampaging Baloths from Rafiq in the early game, and a Vigor in the late game to finish him off.

/end aside

Crucible of Worlds is looking more and more useless the more I play with the deck. I rarely want to cast it, and there are generally much scarier lands at the table for folks to blow up than ours.

Wilderness Elemental is fun and all, but it gets outclassed pretty quickly with such a low toughness.

I'm looking at adding the following:

Dragon Broodmother (as suggested above) is pretty perfect for the deck. It adds another potential avenue for victory (the gigantic devouring dragon), works excellently with our token doubling cards, and is pretty brutal with Purphoros in play.

Awakening Zone. The deck has some ways to wring some damage out of the spawn (Ogre Battledriver, Purphoros, Goblin Bombardment, Sarkhan), they work with Earthcraft and Mana Echoes, they're Skullclampable, and worst-case they make some X spell one mana bigger...but is one per turn really worth the slot? I suppose Broodmother tokens can eat them too.

TsumiBand

03-03-2014, 11:43 AM

Davran

03-03-2014, 01:06 PM

I never much cared for Devour on the whole, as it requires so much gas to matter a damn, but if all you want is the tokens and care none about the devour 2, it's probably a fair slot. I would still strongly suggest looking at Craterhoof Behemoth before a token generator, but if you're not trying to just search for and cast the 8-Mana Easy Button, I understand.

I have another deck with Saffi Eriksdotter at the helm that's on the Craterhoof plan, so I'd like to be different here if possible. To all the people out there thinking of giving this deck a spin, run the Craterhoof and the Zealous Conscripts if you want easy and consistent wins. It's just not where I'm at right now as an EDH player *shrug*.

No Zeniths? :( I know you have like 7 MD non-Green dudes, but both the Zeniths are BAMF in this list.

I've been messing around with Signal the Clans and Chord of Calling over Green Sun's Zenith for the instant speed. It hasn't really been all that relevant, though. Green Sun's is definitely better than Signal the Clans in a vacuum, though...and probably belongs in here somewhere. Maybe that's what goes in the Mirari slot...

As for Red Sun's Zenith, this is a vanity exclusion more than anything. I have a foil Devil's Play, so that wound up being my fireball of choice. For what it's worth, I also like having the ability to flashback Devil's Play later on in a game where I would otherwise have to rely on drawing Red Sun's again. I have thought about the possibility of switching Tempt with Vengeance for another fireball simply to increase the chance of drawing one, and Red Sun's is definitely at the top of the list if I do.

Spellbreaker Behemoth might be better than Wilderness Elemental, if you're on the fence about that guy. That or even like Rubblehulk just because it doubles as Spanish Inquisition; I have killed a man using my bare hands and a Rubblehulk. OK and Wort the Raidmother. OK and also Armed/Dangerous. It was a good day.

I had Spellbreaker Behemoth in the original pile that got shaved into the current list, and ended up chopping it in favor of Vexing Shusher. I like that shusher comes down earlier and also affects non-creature spells whereas the Behemoth only protects my fatties. Also, there are only five 5-power+ dudes in the list at the moment, and none of them are mission critical by any stretch.

Armed // Dangerous is a card I really want to play with but have no room for. It seems like it could be all sorts of fun to make them block some useless token and kill them with the rest of the team.

Rubblehulk got chopped pretty early on. I don't have piles of recursion, and I don't have very many trampling creatures, so its effectiveness is questionable for me. Sure, you can set up the occasional blow-out with it, but on it's own it's just some vanilla 6-mana fat. It can't even be conspired. I think if the +X/+X thing is something you want a card like Aspect of Hydra or something might be better since it can be conspired and is much cheaper.

Davran

03-07-2014, 03:31 PM

Picked up a Dragon Broodmother...so:

- Wilderness Elemental, + Dragon Broodmother

I'm still debating what to replace Crucible of Worlds with. The top contender at the moment is Green Sun's Zenith...but other potentials include Red Sun's Zenith and Awakening Zone.

Davran

03-17-2014, 02:53 PM

Time for another couple changes:

- Crucible of Worlds, + Ashnod's Altar

I have not used Crucible once since I built the deck. It often sits in my hand unwanted, and it's always an abysmal draw. I found Ashnod's Altar while pawing through my EDH box-o-jank and immediately started thinking of the possibilities. The deck has been wanting another sacrifice outlet in most games to both increase the chance of drawing one and to do something with tapped tokens and/or creatures stolen with Sarkhan Vol. Unfortunately, I can't sacrifice tokens to the Altar and use them to Conspire a spell, but I think the potential to go for some big X-value without Wort in play is worth it.

- Burn at the Stake, + Firecat Blitz

Burn at the Stake has similarly sat in my hand most games. I've cast it exactly once, and in that situation it was more of an expensive Lighting Bolt than a game winning spell. I'm hoping that Firecat Blitz will act as another win condition either on its own or in combination with Purphoros, God of the Forge. I'm not sure how relevant the flashback mode is, but I guess we'll see if it ever comes up.

- Deserted Temple, + Mossfire Valley

This is an attempt at filtering some of the colorless mana generated via Mana Echoes and Ashnod's Altar into colored mana for whatever spell I'm trying to cast. Deserted Temple is more than a little win-more if I have enough devotion to support a giant Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, so it was the easiest cut from the mana base.

TsumiBand

03-17-2014, 03:49 PM

FCB + Mana Echoes seems real good! Probably a lot better than other mass token makers. Hilarious with Beastmaster Stevenson. I can dig it

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Davran

03-18-2014, 08:46 AM

FCB + Mana Echoes seems real good! Probably a lot better than other mass token makers. Hilarious with Beastmaster Stevenson. I can dig it

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Crap...why the hell didn't I think of Beastmaster Ascension?

- Crop Rotation, + Beastmaster Ascension

I hate to cut Crop Rotation...but it's currently the weakest card in the list (I think?). Opinions on this would be welcome...

TsumiBand

03-18-2014, 10:06 AM

FCB + Mana Echoes seems real good! Probably a lot better than other mass token makers. Hilarious with Beastmaster Stevenson. I can dig it

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Just who the hell is Beastmaster Stevenson? God I hate Swype, haha

I hate to cut Crop Rotation...but it's currently the weakest card in the list (I think?). Opinions on this would be welcome...

Yeah in looking over your lands I don't know that Crop Rotation is the most amaze-balls thing. As with any "additional cost" spell it is cool with Conspire but I don't think you need it, especially since you're not just throwing away artifacts for green ramp spells. Though you might think about finding a home for Nature's Lore and/or Primal Growth. In particular Primal Growth; as you've almost certainly seen with Ashnod's Altar, being able to sac Wort once or twice (not a *lot*, but a couple times a game is usually ok) to make more Goblin Warrior tokens can be a good thing, even without Mana Echoes in play (though obviously very good with Mana Echoes).

Also, not playing Harrow is probably wrong? But again, you're using artifacts, so your acceleration is a little different than mine.

Davran

03-18-2014, 10:32 AM

Just who the hell is Beastmaster Stevenson? God I hate Swype, haha

The first time I read this I just assumed it was some inside joke I wasn't "in" on. Then I noticed the "posted from phone" thing, and realized that autocorrect is apparently confused about the legitimacy of Ascension as an english word. Doesn't make it any less hilarious.

Yeah in looking over your lands I don't know that Crop Rotation is the most amaze-balls thing. As with any "additional cost" spell it is cool with Conspire but I don't think you need it, especially since you're not just throwing away artifacts for green ramp spells. Though you might think about finding a home for Nature's Lore and/or Primal Growth. In particular Primal Growth; as you've almost certainly seen with Ashnod's Altar, being able to sac Wort once or twice (not a *lot*, but a couple times a game is usually ok) to make more Goblin Warrior tokens can be a good thing, even without Mana Echoes in play (though obviously very good with Mana Echoes).

Also, not playing Harrow is probably wrong? But again, you're using artifacts, so your acceleration is a little different than mine.

Crop Rotation has been a pet card of mine ever since that one time in some other deck where I totally blew out a guy by Crop Rotating for Yavimaya Hollow to save my lethal commander from his removal. No one ever thinks "hm, what if he has Crop Rotation?" when they're trying to figure out what to cast, either. It's one of those things I like the idea of more than I probably actually use it. So yeah. Sacred cow and all of that.

I'm not married to the artifact acceleration, either. In fact, lands are probably just better since they're harder to remove due to the social stigma on Armageddon effects. Primal Growth is a card I haven't seen before. Is it actually any better than Skyshroud Claim (which I'm also not running at the moment)? The benefit to Claim is that you find forests instead of basic lands, so one copy of it can grab Taiga and/or Stomping Ground which is nice. Also, it's not less useful in some weird situation where there's no creature to sacrifice.

Harrow is a good suggestion too. I always forget that it's an instant.

I'll have to think about the mana ramp package some...

TsumiBand

03-18-2014, 11:18 AM

Crop Rotation has been a pet card of mine ever since that one time in some other deck where I totally blew out a guy by Crop Rotating for Yavimaya Hollow to save my lethal commander from his removal. No one ever thinks "hm, what if he has Crop Rotation?" when they're trying to figure out what to cast, either. It's one of those things I like the idea of more than I probably actually use it. So yeah. Sacred cow and all of that.

I'm not married to the artifact acceleration, either. In fact, lands are probably just better since they're harder to remove due to the social stigma on Armageddon effects. Primal Growth is a card I haven't seen before. Is it actually any better than Skyshroud Claim (which I'm also not running at the moment)? The benefit to Claim is that you find forests instead of basic lands, so one copy of it can grab Taiga and/or Stomping Ground which is nice. Also, it's not less useful in some weird situation where there's no creature to sacrifice.

Harrow is a good suggestion too. I always forget that it's an instant.

I'll have to think about the mana ramp package some...

Welp, I'll never tell you to take a pet card out in EDH. Probably not in Legacy either. Vote Werebear in the upcoming election! Progress is his middle name!

As for Primal Growth it is just a 'strictly better Untamed Wilds', which isn't necessarily compelling in and of itself. It's just an easy cost to pay in this deck and Conspiring it is valuable especially when you have any kind of mana doubling effect going on (they do ETB untapped after all). Given that you run Ashnod's Altar and Goblin Bombardment, you may not find that you need another sacrifice effect. In truth, I should probably try running my build with AA before suggesting Primal Growth. It isn't necessarily always better than Skyshroud Claim, and really with the sac cards you're already playing, you'll probably find the cuteness of PG to be only cute.

Ace/Homebrew

03-18-2014, 11:40 AM

Skyshroud Stevenson is pretty realistically a 'free' spell in Wort...
4 mana + tap two creatures for 4 forests into play untapped. Seems good! I'd play 4. :tongue:

TsumiBand

03-18-2014, 12:21 PM

Skyshroud Stevenson is pretty realistically a 'free' spell in Wort...
4 mana + tap two creatures for 4 forests into play untapped. Seems good! I'd play 4. :tongue:

Is this what we're doing now? :D

Wort Stevenson, the Raidmother -- bring you the best in sports coverage every night at 11

Davran

03-18-2014, 01:36 PM

Welp, I'll never tell you to take a pet card out in EDH. Probably not in Legacy either. Vote Werebear in the upcoming election! Progress is his middle name!

I like that he supports our right to bear arms.

As for my pet card, I'm sure it won't be idle for long. I can't seem to help slinging forests in this format.

Skyshroud Stevenson is pretty realistically a 'free' spell in Wort...
4 mana + tap two creatures for 4 forests into play untapped. Seems good! I'd play 4. :tongue:

Yeah, I think it's ultimately better than Gilded Lotus in this deck. It has the potential to provide an extra mana on subsequent turns and as you rightly pointed out it's more or less "free" if/when Wort is around. Lands are also more resilient to incidental removal than artifacts, which is an added bonus. So...

- Gilded Lotus, + Skyshroud Claim

Is this what we're doing now? :D

Wort Stevenson, the Raidmother -- bring you the best in sports coverage every night at 11

Now there's a deck name if I ever saw one...

Davran

03-26-2014, 10:29 AM

Quick change to the list:

- Burning-Tree Emissary, + Hammer of Purphoros

Haste is becoming increasingly important as this turns more and more into a swarm deck, and I think Hammer of Purphoros edges out Anger and Fervor for an enabler. The Emissary is mostly a cute trick with Kiki-Jiki and otherwise quite do-nothing.

/aside

I was able to play a few games with this deck the other day. I ended up winning the first one with a double-conspired Gelatinous Genesis with X=12, creating 18 6/6 oozes. I lost the rest to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed.

As it happens, Elesh Norn is a real problem for this deck, and I'm not quite sure how to solve it. I'm hoping that the addition of another haste enabler will allow me to sneak in a win before she can come down, but that remains to be seen. Luckily I can still shoot for the Purphoros damage kill or just dump a bunch of mana into a fireball to get rid of her.

/end aside

Ace/Homebrew

03-26-2014, 12:39 PM

I ended up winning the first one with a double-conspired Gelatinous Genesis with X=12, creating 18 6/6 oozes.
Could you explain? What gave your Gelatinous Genesis a second conspire trigger?

Davran

03-26-2014, 01:04 PM

Could you explain? What gave your Gelatinous Genesis a second conspire trigger?

This is embarrassing because I've been playing for way too long to mess something this basic up...

Someone somewhere once told me that conspire worked similar to convoke - as long as you can keep tapping 2 creatures that share a color with the spell you keep getting copies. As you can imagine, that sort of ability sounded amazing (I wasn't playing during Shadowmoor), and thus the deck was born. I was so sure this was true, I just looked it up in the comprehensive rules:

702.76a. Conspire is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell with conspire is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell with conspire is on the stack. Conspire means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap two untapped creatures you control that each share a color with it" and "When you cast this spell, if its conspire cost was paid, copy it. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy." Paying a spell‘s conspire cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.

702.76b. If a spell has multiple instances of conspire, each is paid separately and triggers based on its own payment, not any other instance of conspire.

Yeah. That's not how it works at all. I'm not sure why the oracle text of Wort doesn't match the wording in 702.76a since that makes it much more obvious (for me anyway) that it's a one-time thing. Luckily the only thing that's happened as a result of my ignorance is a few bruised egos in some casual games, and now I know better for the future.

Ace/Homebrew

03-26-2014, 01:33 PM

Davran

03-26-2014, 01:56 PM

Ooops! :tongue:

The most cut throat version of Wort Stevenson I have seen takes huge advantage of the Conspire mechanic with spells that take away the opponent's ability to play. Stuff like Plow Under, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, and Reap and Sow. That's probably not the answer you were looking for regarding your Elesh Norn problem... but a conspired Plow Under is a blowout.

Conspiring a Plow Under makes me tingly in the same way that bringing Stingscourger to Show and Tell does...but ultimately I don't think that's the right solution for the job since this is primarily a multiplayer deck. It seems like it might make the same kind of issues Mind Twist used to when I played it in a different deck - you piss off the guy who you just screwed, and you also piss off the rest of the table for being the sort of guy that plays a card like Mind Twist in your deck. To them, you're obviously not there to have fun, and therefore you must be killed immediately.

I think this deck has the tools to deal with a resolved Elesh Norn (Beast Within, Chaos Warp, any of the fireball effects), it just sort of sucks that she gets to do all the damage to our board state first, forcing us to switch gears just as we're getting ready to take over. The same could be said for Massacre Wurm, Aether Snap (why don't more people play this card?) and any other number of token hosers. Unfortunately, I think it's just a vulnerability we'll have to live with.