Cabal Therapy Price

[AznSeal]

Does anyone know why Cabal Therapy just basically doubled in price?

[Lemnear]

Does anyone know why Cabal Therapy just basically doubled in price?

I think the question is answered after the Born of the Gods Spoiler is finished. i'm sure SCG has access to all Godbooks/upcoming B&R-Updates as this is idicated by several suspicious incidents in the past.

[Looooooooo]

I think the question is answered after the Born of the Gods Spoiler is finished. i'm sure SCG has access to all Godbooks/upcoming B&R-Updates as this is idicated by several suspicious incidents in the past.

What are you implying?
The reprint is impossible (Flashback is out as a mechanic) and i don't think that there can be a card that can be answered only with CT...

- L

[Lemnear]

What are you implying?
The reprint is impossible (Flashback is out as a mechanic) and i don't think that there can be a card that can be answered only with CT...

- L

Outright the opposite: a card that interacts WITH Therapy

[TsumiBand]

So, for the record -- I'm inclined to agree with the idea that there's some kind of advanced knowledge afoot, but I have to admit I have difficulty validating that reaction.

How do you rule out a lack of demand? What does one use as an observer to measure demand?

I mean, I know what *my* level of demand for Cabal Therapy is - it isn't very high, I came into my playset years ago.

Are we basing this 'lack' of demand on anticipated tournaments? You know, like… if we metagame the metagame, and we know that Cabal Therapy goes in a deck which is a great meta foil, and we then assume that lots of people flock to that card? That seems like a difficult task.

Nonetheless, demand seems sort of intangible unless one actually owns a store and can see the number of requests coming in for such-and-such a card increasing over time. So where are we getting this idea from that it has to be advanced knowledge?

[Erdvermampfa]

So, for the record -- I'm inclined to agree with the idea that there's some kind of advanced knowledge afoot, but I have to admit I have difficulty validating that reaction.

How do you rule out a lack of demand? What does one use as an observer to measure demand?

I mean, I know what *my* level of demand for Cabal Therapy is - it isn't very high, I came into my playset years ago.

Are we basing this 'lack' of demand on anticipated tournaments? You know, like… if we metagame the metagame, and we know that Cabal Therapy goes in a deck which is a great meta foil, and we then assume that lots of people flock to that card? That seems like a difficult task.

Nonetheless, demand seems sort of intangible unless one actually owns a store and can see the number of requests coming in for such-and-such a card increasing over time. So where are we getting this idea from that it has to be advanced knowledge?

I don't think that we have to apply scientific methodology on subjects like these, especially since we haven't got any data most of the times. Nonetheless, intuition and our general experiences with the magic market and its players should suffice in general.

[Michael Keller]

Or, you know, the fact that card is ridiculously good in general - but better with Gitaxian Probe?

It's seeing A LOT of play right now, and for good reason.

[Megadeus]

No-one doubts the power level. But it has been 5-7 for awhile now. Why suddenly out of nowhere it more than doubled in price?

[Tammit67]

Why suddenly out of nowhere it more than doubled in price?

Because they aren't on the counterfeiting list.

Just to be safe, I'm going to pick up 3 extra playsets of everything not on that list. I'll double my money easily!

[Arsenal]

Or, you know, the fact that card is ridiculously good in general - but better with Gitaxian Probe?

It's seeing A LOT of play right now, and for good reason.

According to tcdecks, it isn't seeing more play now than it was when it was holding steady at $7 for the longest time.

[Kayradis]

Hurray for me buying a playset of Foil in DC!

EDIT :
This is fucked. Just digging on MTGStocks.
Summoner's Egg jumped like crazy (15$ for a foil?!?!)
Fist of the Suns as well....
Unless there is someone trolling the fuck outta the market there someone somewhere that knows something that might change somehow...

[Jonathan Alexander]

Fist of Suns is due to Jan Van Der Vegt's Modern Tin Fists Deck, which is basically Goryo's Vengeance + Fist of Suns for Emrakul / Griselbrand. Deck has been known for a while, card started rising in price, then he did reasonably well in the GP with someone else piloting the deck to a Top 8 finish. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Summoner's Egg? Well, there's a new Travis Woo deck. Just take a look at Disrupting Shoal. Again, typical price fluctuation.

Cabal Therapy has been increasing in value for more than a week, following Infernal Tutor. Don't see how it has anything to do with BNG cards. Also, I don't believe in these conspiracy-theories.

[Michael Keller]

Cabal Therapy is just a widely used, powerful card. Like Jona said, it has been creeping up in value and I actually told a friend of mine about three months ago not to be surprised if it rockets in value - especially Judgment foils (which I too am happy to have).

[Barook]

EDIT :
This is fucked. Just digging on MTGStocks.
Summoner's Egg jumped like crazy (15$ for a foil?!?!)
Fist of the Suns as well....
Unless there is someone trolling the fuck outta the market there someone somewhere that knows something that might change somehow...

The rise of Cabal Therapy was market manipulation at its finest. I blame SCG (and maybe other big players in the secondary market, who knows).

There's a pretty easy way to tell whether there's actual demand or just some assholes messing with the market: Comparing the price between MODO and Paper. If prices in both spike, it's demand, if only Paper spikes for no appearent reason, it's market manipulation. It is that easy and we do have the tools now to call speculators out on their bullshit:

I don't know what caused the rise of Summoner's Egg, but there's clearly demand for it in both Paper and MODO :

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Fist+of+Suns+%5B5DN%5D --> demand

Both Griselbrand and Fist of Suns had a price spike due to the new Tin Fists deck in the latest Modern GP:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Griselbrand+%5BAVR%5D --> demand

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Fist+of+Suns+%5B5DN%5D --> demand

Stoneforge Mythic recently trippled in price as well. While this increase in price might have been fueled by speculators as well, the timeline clearly indicates a clear increase in demand ever since TNN was unleashed onto the format:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Stoneforge+Mystic+%5BWWK%5D --> demand

As for Cabal Therapy: While there has been a steady increase in price the last few months, the recent price spike is completely unaccounted for. There's no new hot deck using it and MODO hasn't shown any price spike either to indicate increased demand:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Cabal+Therapy+%5BJUD%5D --> market manipulation

Edit: Disrupting Shoal is also met by market demand:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Disrupting+Shoal+%5BBOK%5D --> demand

[FTW]

There could be information assymetry. Might dealers like SCG know about a new card that will synergize with Cabal, causing speculation?

It's not AWFUL with Waste Not. You name a creature. If you hit a creature, you get a free 2/2 zombie and can immediately flash it back on whatever they have the most copies of in hand. If you probed or Thoughtseized them first, then you probably know what creature to name too.

[TsumiBand]

It's not AWFUL with Waste Not. You name a creature. If you hit a creature, you get a free 2/2 zombie and can immediately flash it back on whatever they have the most copies of in hand. If you probed or Thoughtseized them first, then you probably know what creature to name too.

Actually, I bet this is a lot of it. I know that I'm interested in playing around with this interaction.

A while ago it was suggested by several people that Quiet Speculation + Young Pyromancer could chain Therapies or other spells with cheap-as-free Flashback. If there's a decent Vintage/Legacy brew that combines this with Waste Not, it could explain some of the increased attention.

*Some* of the attention. I still can't really pretend to know exactly why the card has doubled in apparent value.

[PirateKing]

Maybe I'm a bad player (okay not maybe) but I would have expected to see Hymn to Tourach spike more from Waste Not, seeing as it makes :b::b: all by itself, and nothing is going to give you better synergy.

[Scott]

Also, Nic Fit is having a good run.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Holy shit SFM is $35 when did that happen.

Good Chinese "proxies" can't get here fast enough.

[jamis]

I went to my LGS last week looking to pick up a playset of Cabal Therapy, but they didn't have any in stock. The price increase is obviously because I personally am looking for some.

[TsumiBand]

Holy shit SFM is $35 when did that happen.

Holy shit!

Between Therapy and SFM by crappy BW Deadguy deck is starting to look like one of those "investment" thingies.

I felt shitty when I bought 3 SFMs for $5 and one for $8. vOv

[miguelmatix]

Holy shit!

Between Therapy and SFM by crappy BW Deadguy deck is starting to look like one of those "investment" thingies.

I felt shitty when I bought 3 SFMs for $5 and one for $8. vOv


I bought my foil playset for 35$ and thought it was bloody expensive... If i only knew... :cry: lol

[Lemnear]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151220&d=1389934931

Just an idea...

[Sloshthedark]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151220&d=1389934931

Just an idea...

lol, this card is absurd at 3CC, fighting creatures with more powerfull creatures.. I want Craw Wurms back again =/

[Julian23]

There's a running joke on R&D that goes like this:

"Let's just add 1 more toughness, because why not?"

[Lemnear]

There's a running joke on R&D that goes like this:

"Let's just add 1 more toughness, because why not?"

I can remember a time as reasonable priced creatures began to have 3 thoughness and people complained that Grim Lavamancer, Shock, Massacre and Infest were suddenly not reliable enough to handle creatures. Now I expect another level-up of that discussion, now with Lightning Bolt :)

[bondfan]

The price increase happened because of a glitch on mtgcardinfo. It displayed the average price as foil copies. Now every retailer has just accepted this new as the norm.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I can remember a time as reasonable priced creatures began to have 3 thoughness and people complained that Grim Lavamancer, Shock, Massacre and Infest were suddenly not reliable enough to handle creatures. Now I expect another level-up of that discussion, now with Lightning Bolt :)

This already happened in Alara/Zen standard. Rhox War Monk, Putrid Leech, KOTR, Wooly Thoctar etc. After that creatures got a little less tough for a while.

[Arsenal]

The price increase happened because of a glitch on mtgcardinfo. It displayed the average price as foil copies. Now every retailer has just accepted this new as the norm.

Source?

[alphastryk]

Source?

I'd definitely heard that around too, but I don't have a definite source. The numbers do line up perfectly though if you take a look. The glitch was on TCGPlayer itself though, where magiccards.info gets the price from.

[Arsenal]

If that is true, I really hope the market stabilizes and the prices go down to a more reasonable range. Cabal Therapy is a good card to be sure, but it's not played more now than it was when it was a $7-8 card; if the demand isn't there for a $8 card, I doubt there's much for a $20 card.

[phazonmutant]

Anyone saying that this is all Starcity's fault and that they have advanced knowledge is just buying into hysteria (looking at you, Lemnear and InfamousBearAssassin).

I know for a fact why they spiked. A local miser noticed there were only 50ish on tcgplayer, decided it was undervalued, and bought out tcgplayer. Just one guy, maybe with a friend.

Supposedly he's been cackling in the mtgfinance reddit.

[lordofthepit]

Anyone saying that this is all Starcity's fault and that they have advanced knowledge is just buying into hysteria (looking at you, Lemnear and InfamousBearAssassin).

I know for a fact why they spiked. A local miser noticed there were only 50ish on tcgplayer, decided it was undervalued, and bought out tcgplayer. Just one guy, maybe with a friend.

Supposedly he's been cackling in the mtgfinance reddit.

This is what happened.

In the future:
1. Buy out TCG
2. Post on financial forums
3. Wait for people to blame SCG
4. ?????
5. Profit

[Lemnear]

Anyone saying that this is all Starcity's fault and that they have advanced knowledge is just buying into hysteria (looking at you, Lemnear and InfamousBearAssassin).

I know for a fact why they spiked. A local miser noticed there were only 50ish on tcgplayer, decided it was undervalued, and bought out tcgplayer. Just one guy, maybe with a friend.

Supposedly he's been cackling in the mtgfinance reddit.

Pure Hysteria if SCG buys up Land Taxes, Time Spirals and Scroll Racks from MKM two weeks before the unbanning of Tax and Spiral? I don't believe in lucky guesses ...

[Psyqo]

(Flashback is out as a mechanic)


This part intrigued me most about this thread. Is this true? Why won't Wizards use Flashback again? I love that mechanic.

[rufus]

This part intrigued me most about this thread. Is this true? Why won't Wizards use Flashback again? I love that mechanic.
We may see it again, but a recent block had flashback.

[dsck]

Anyone saying that this is all Starcity's fault and that they have advanced knowledge is just buying into hysteria (looking at you, Lemnear and InfamousBearAssassin).

I know for a fact why they spiked. A local miser noticed there were only 50ish on tcgplayer, decided it was undervalued, and bought out tcgplayer. Just one guy, maybe with a friend.

Supposedly he's been cackling in the mtgfinance reddit.

Or maybe SCG bought my therapies and all the other therapies disappeared from MCM same time..? Thats just a local miser right?

[Dzra]

I'm pretty sure that you could take just about any uncommon Legacy staple that is under 10$, buy TCG out, and expect to enjoy a profit.

[mishima_kazuya]

Where I shop, Cabal Therapies are still about $10 each :tongue:

[lordofthepit]

I'm pretty sure that you could take just about any uncommon Legacy staple that is under 10$, buy TCG out, and expect to enjoy a profit.

Not sure you'll profit, since you still have to unload those cards at buylist costs and pay for shipping, etc. Perhaps after sitting on your stock for a few months.

But you'll succeed in managing to make the game less affordable for everyone!

[GoblinZ]

I bought 2 copies of cabal therapy today at around 6.5 dollars each. And I think I can buy some foil cabal therapy at about 15 dollars each at present If I will...

[wizard_of_gore]

I bought 2 copies of cabal therapy today at around 6.5 dollars each. And I think I can buy some foil cabal therapy at about 15 dollars each at present If I will...

wow, you are my hero

[TsumiBand]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151220&d=1389934931

Just an idea...

Actually? I think I really like this idea.

BW Deadguy already makes arguments for Lingering Souls now and again - if it isn't currently considered a maindeck card (I guess I should check, I have an 'almost real' version of that deck sitting around). Pound for pound, playing Brimaz and attacking puts the same amount of power on the board as two castings of Lingering Souls, though it doesn't feed quite so many Therapy flashbacks, but a 3/4 for 3 isn't exactly under the curve itself. It could be cool.

Then again that three-drop slot belongs to my favorite face-down creature, so I dunno if I can swing both.

[Michael Keller]

I bought 2 copies of cabal therapy today at around 6.5 dollars each. And I think I can buy some foil cabal therapy at about 15 dollars each at present If I will...

You're not getting a Judgment (foil) Cabal Therapy for $15.00, sir. Maybe an FNM or a premium foil, but not Judgment.

Unless you know something I don't...

[Megadeus]

Actually? I think I really like this idea.

BW Deadguy already makes arguments for Lingering Souls now and again - if it isn't currently considered a maindeck card (I guess I should check, I have an 'almost real' version of that deck sitting around). Pound for pound, playing Brimaz and attacking puts the same amount of power on the board as two castings of Lingering Souls, though it doesn't feed quite so many Therapy flashbacks, but a 3/4 for 3 isn't exactly under the curve itself. It could be cool.

Then again that three-drop slot belongs to my favorite face-down creature, so I dunno if I can swing both.

I think souls is a bit better. Has flashback so it is more difficult to control with counter spells, also makes more men immediately so it is more difficult to handle with 1 for 1 removal

[GoblinZ]

You're not getting a Judgment (foil) Cabal Therapy for $15.00, sir. Maybe an FNM or a premium foil, but not Judgment.

Unless you know something I don't...

it is indeed judgment foil. Because I am in China, it seems the stores or traders have not known the recent price change...so...

[Michael Keller]

it is indeed judgment foil. Because I am in China, it seems the stores or traders have not known the recent price change...so...

I wouldn't hesitate to get my ass in a car - now - and go pick them up.

[Nidd]

I doubt SCG have the monetary ressources to pull off these kinds of shenanigans at the moment.

[Megadeus]

I doubt SCG have the monetary ressources to pull off these kinds of shenanigans at the moment.

Ummm... what? Regardless of if this was SCGs doing or not, I'm sure they have the monetary resources to easily do this.

[Kayradis]

it is indeed judgment foil. Because I am in China, it seems the stores or traders have not known the recent price change...so...

Directly from the printer maybe???