[SCD] Spirit of the Labyrinth

[Wilkin]

The real strength of this spirit, in my eyes, is the body attached it. Normal hatebears are only 2/2, which is only so-so when trying to be aggressive. But an unconditional 3/1 for two mana is respectable, if not amazing. In fact, I doubt many people would be very excited about this card if it was only a 2/2. Now, combining this decent body with an ability which disrupts one of the most common played cards in the format (brainstorm), plus a slew of other draw effects seems pretty useful. I don't think that anybody should be arguing that the ability is back breaking consistently. It certainly can be if your opponent has a cantrip heavy hand and can't find a removal spell, or if you vial this in response to a brainstorm, but more often than not it will be a 3/1 beater than can blank some spells your opponent might have for awhile.

People might slot spirit of the labyrinth into some older strategies in order to try this guy out. In particular, of the more powerful and popular decks, I think it's incredibly likely that this guy will see a 2-4 of play in Death and Taxes. That said, this card is not going to make any tier 2+ strategies suddenly dominate the meta; this is not that type of card.

3/1 pretty crazy. But in the current meta, as a 2/2 it would be good as well as the meta has a lot of -1/-1 effects right now. I see the card seeing some play and like you say I can see up to 2 main in Death and Taxes. But I feel Thalia kind of hates enough on blue and while Spirit is very good, it doesn't help D&T in the matchups it needed help on....

As far as additional hate vs say storm, I dunno. It works and hates on Brainstorm etc. My issue is you already have a plethora of options at 2 mana if you are say D&T. Thalia, Canonist..... I personally feel if you need something in addition, IMHO you are better off served with stuff like Mindbreak Trap or Leyline of Sanctity. If you survive to 2 mana, you can only cast 1 dude. I'd rather have something in board that can help turn 0 (opponent first turn) or turn 1.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

for the Jace and control Decks this card can become anyoing ofcourse. Thats the reason why I play enchantment and artifact disruption in the Main Deck
to get a way to get rid of all the anyoing stuff like vial Sotl and SFSI and so on should they resolve.
But also against control its not a imidiate Game winner cause its hinders brainstorm and the Jace brainstorm effect, the scond only leads to a faster
Jace kill, but Sotl don´t effect top cause you can simply draw the card in your oppponents turn and still you can stack your deck.

I think for Control this card can be a anoying thing but not a Game Win without any outher further lockdown and threats. So yes
control have to think about something against DnT which can easly provide this hardlock wchihc is needed.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[Lemnear]

Hello,

for the Jace and control Decks this card can become anyoing ofcourse. Thats the reason why I play enchantment and artifact disruption in the Main Deck
to get a way to get rid of all the anyoing stuff like vial Sotl and SFSI and so on should they resolve.
But also against control its not a imidiate Game winner cause its hinders brainstorm and the Jace brainstorm effect, the scond only leads to a faster
Jace kill, but Sotl don´t effect top cause you can simply draw the card in your oppponents turn and still you can stack your deck.

I think for Control this card can be a anoying thing but not a Game Win without any outher further lockdown and threats. So yes
control have to think about something against DnT which can easly provide this hardlock wchihc is needed.

Best Regards Teveshszat

1) What is "SFSI"?
2) isn't a 3/1 enough of a threat for your Jace and Life total?

[Tylert]

Hello,

for the Jace and control Decks this card can become anyoing ofcourse. Thats the reason why I play enchantment and artifact disruption in the Main Deck
to get a way to get rid of all the anyoing stuff like vial Sotl and SFSI and so on should they resolve.
But also against control its not a imidiate Game winner cause its hinders brainstorm and the Jace brainstorm effect, the scond only leads to a faster
Jace kill, but Sotl don´t effect top cause you can simply draw the card in your oppponents turn and still you can stack your deck.

I think for Control this card can be a anoying thing but not a Game Win without any outher further lockdown and threats. So yes
control have to think about something against DnT which can easly provide this hardlock wchihc is needed.

Best Regards Teveshszat

It doesn' lead to a faster jace kill... there's a 3/1 on the board, that you need to bounce :p

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

nope I don´t need to bounce it why should I even care for a single 3/1 until 4turns in the future?
If there are other creatures on the flied as well the better Idea is to play a sweeper and not a
bounce. If there is a mother then it is a better Idea to bait the effect with stp and sweep the board
at my turn.
Ok if they have eq then I have to bounce it earlier but never forget your life is a resource as well
and if they should attack Jace I can find a solution and after they wasted 3 turns killing my
Jace. (+2 from his ability and -3 marks from dmg)
So I don´t see any reason to bounce it from the first turn on expect I only have 3 life left
and no other out but then more went wrong then just a resolved Sotl.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you survive to 2 mana, you can only cast 1 dude. I'd rather have something in board that can help turn 0 (opponent first turn) or turn 1.
That's what I was trying to indicate when I wrote about the fundamental rule of Magic and the other nonsenses...

Maybe there can be some build with up to sixteen hatebears main, that tries to win the G1 in unfair matchups, and that has tools to fight other strategies (Jund or w/e) in sb? As long as 70 % of meta is blue, it isn't unreasonable to just shrug of the "fair" matchups, concentrate on the blue decks and beat the occasional non-blue decks postboard. ("Blue" meaning also Elves here...)

[LeoCop 90]

This creature is as white as it could have been. Making it red would not only have been strange but pointless with Blue Elemental Blast/Hyroblast available every time the metagame develops towards red key-cards (see Imperial Painter during it's first run)

Delver should have been black and Snapcaster red however

This doesn't make sense. So they shouldn't ever print good red cards that may shift the metagame because BEB/Hydroblast exist ?

[DragoFireheart]

This doesn't make sense. So they shouldn't ever print good red cards that may shift the metagame because BEB/Hydroblast exist ?

I wish WotC used this reasoning sometimes in regards to good blue cards and REB/Pyroblast.

[Lemnear]

This doesn't make sense. So they shouldn't ever print good red cards that may shift the metagame because BEB/Hydroblast exist ?

The effect of SotL simply is nothing what has any link to Reds color indentity. A guy what Shocks for each blue instant played however would fit

[Arsenal]

This doesn't make sense. So they shouldn't ever print good red cards that may shift the metagame because BEB/Hydroblast exist ?

White is about balance and equality. Spirit makes sure that each player only draws one card per turn. Sounds pretty white to me.

[DragoFireheart]

White is about balance and equality. Spirit makes sure that each player only draws one card per turn. Sounds pretty white to me.

So this makes black about imbalance and inequality?

[insert racist joke]



Delver should have been black

What? This makes no sense at all.

[Lemnear]

What? This makes no sense at all.

2 pages back that was explained. In the Tradition of Vampire lacerator and Carnophage Delver should have been a 3/2 for B with the "drawback" of starting as a 1/1 unless you reveal cardtype X. A blue, evasive creature what you can Ride to victory by flipping counterspells for it and to protect it turn for turn is stupid and too simple

[DragoFireheart]

2 pages back that was explained. In the Tradition of Vampire lacerator and Carnophage Delver should have been a 3/2 for B with the "drawback" of starting as a 1/1 unless you reveal cardtype X. A blue, evasive creature what you can Ride to victory by flipping counterspells for it and to protect it turn for turn is stupid and too simple

But it doesn't make me lose life or any other black-staple-disadvantages (sac a creature, discard something, etc). The flavor is correctly blue, but the correct is just too powerful. Should have been a 2/2 or cost more.

[Lemnear]

But it doesn't make me lose life or any other black-staple-disadvantages (sac a creature, discard something, etc). The flavor is correctly blue, but the correct is just too powerful. Should have been a 2/2 or cost more.

We sure can discuss if the flip-condition should be worded in a other way. It was more about 1cc black creature with increased P/T but handed with a drawback (starting as a 1/1). That's all

[Lord Seth]

We sure can discuss if the flip-condition should be worded in a other way. It was more about 1cc black creature with increased P/T but handed with a drawback (starting as a 1/1). That's all
Except all colors get that sort of thing.

[TsumiBand]

The ambiguity of perception is a tricky bitch, but after some consideration ultimately I disagree with the assertion that Delver of Secrets is a "creature with a drawback". It is not expressly a 'drawback' that Delver of Secrets is only conditionally a 3/2. It is a 1/1 with an ability; that it has the capacity to grow does not mean it is inherently designed with a drawback.

There are a slew of cards that are more or less extensions of this idea.

Figure of Destiny
Student of Warfare
Coralhelm Commander
Really just any card with level up/flip/transform* that isn't overcosted bilge
Werebear
Mystic Enforcer
Nimble Mongoose
Kird Ape
Loam Lion
Wild Nacatl
Exalted Angel
Whipcorder
Zombie Cutthroat
Putrid Raptor
Any non-crappy Morph guys or Metalcraft guys or Affinity guys or etc…

I mean really, what's the actual difference between a creature with Threshold and a creature with Transform? "If [condition], this card gets ." It's not as if a 1/1 vanilla creature has a bonus because it can never flip around to be bigger than it is right now.

*many Transformed cards do have a drawback on the transform side, namely "if some dick cast too many spells, flip this". But it's hard to directly compare transform cards to cards with a single face; really [B]the whole transform effect is a bonus, so it's probably fairer to say "the bonus has a drawback"… which Delver of Secrets doesn't even have, so.

[Lemnear]

Ok, it's not that Delver or SCM are a topic here. Just was my take on both. We are here to discuss SotL and I was free to disagree with the idea of it being better fitted in red

[Dzra]

I see no real argument for why Spirit should have been any color but White, just like I feel like Delver's flip is a very Blue mechanic. That doesn't mean that Delver should have ever been printed at all, or that Red couldn't use some more powerful creatures. I feel like they got the flavor of Young Pyromancer correct, though its power level is just slightly under being powerful enough.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Werebear
Mystic Enforcer

I cried.


The pre-order prices are at 8 bucks or so. I don't find those 30 dollars needed for a play set on a sidewalk every day, otoh, it's not that expensive. From what happened with SFM, Ooze, DRS and TNN, I think this isn't appropriate.

[Barook]

The pre-order prices are at 8 bucks or so. I don't find those 30 dollars needed for a play set on a sidewalk every day, otoh, it's not that expensive. From what happened with SFM, Ooze, DRS and TNN, I think this isn't appropriate.
Since only a specific subset of Legacy decks in interested in this card, I expect it to drop alot in price.

[Whippoorwill]

Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but I look forward to playing against this with Vendilion Clique. Instant speed Thoughtseize on a 3/1 Flier.

[Fatal]

In sum about SoL:
- it has impact on specify cards/decks:

1.Griselbrand ability/Enter the Infinity (S&T/Omni/Reanimator)
2. All brainstorms/cantrips - mostly U combo decks + 80% of the format - anyway BUG/RUG will mostly just kill it before cantriping - its a problem only for combo decks like sneak/spiral/ant - ANT also, but mostly only when hatebear player is on play - since 80% of games looks like turn 1 duress/cantrip, turn 2 brainstorm -> sculpted win, when hatebear player starts this line of play can't be played (probably most ANT player know that they need turn 1 kill or answer for turn 2 hatebear).
3. Small impact on BUG/RUG/Miracles - since those decks running a lot of removal, hatebears which doesn't protect itself (like gaddock vs miracles, or thalia with mana taxing) doesn't provide too much. Thing changes with AEther Vial and suprise factor - for example vs Brainstorm without open mana specially on their turn to fetch shuffle, I think this factor will change a lot in play line in most control decks.



Also don't forget it has very aggresive stats 3/1 which is very good for 1W.

On the end a word about environment- format is too focused on TNN and -X/-X / wrath effects so after it goes down this card become much more playable.

[Higgs]

The pre-order prices are at 8 bucks or so. I don't find those 30 dollars needed for a play set on a sidewalk every day, otoh, it's not that expensive. From what happened with SFM, Ooze, DRS and TNN, I think this isn't appropriate.

Actually I'm considering to get a playset, getting them signed by the artist and then commissioning them for a troll face alter. Maybe I can sell them for a premium to some ecstatic brainstorm haters. I know even I'm getting a kick out of the possibility of slamming a troll-faced Sol on the table and pissing people off :)

[Finn]

@Delver in blue: Andre Delambre or (more likely) Seth Brundle
The card is all about flavor.

[Lemnear]

Actually I'm considering to get a playset, getting them signed by the artist and then commissioning them for a troll face alter. Maybe I can sell them for a premium to some ecstatic brainstorm haters. I know even I'm getting a kick out of the possibility of slamming a troll-faced Sol on the table and pissing people off :)

Text: YOU MAD, BROstorm?!

[Higgs]

I think I'm past the threshold of being annoyed and reached a point where I'm just laughing at the direction this game is headed to.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but I look forward to playing against this with Vendilion Clique. Instant speed Thoughtseize on a 3/1 Flier.
Two times. Two times I tried to bring discussion to this interaction, but no one ever cared.
Is it powerful enough to be included in one deck, esp. in one that... is blue?



I think I'm past the threshold of being annoyed and reached a point where I'm just laughing at the direction this game is headed to.
I'm past the point of keeping anything else then Threshold, and I'm actively dissolving my Legacy collection, while I hoard the cards for Retro Magic. Maybe I'm idiot. After all, some ppl on this forum already think so.

[LeoCop 90]

The effect of SotL simply is nothing what has any link to Reds color indentity. A guy what Shocks for each blue instant played however would fit .

I think that is the wrong attitude of wizard. Nothing is part of red's color pie, except dealing damage , as i already stated. If they printed a 2 mana, 3/1 creature that reads: "whenever a player draws the second card in a turn, shock him" , it simply won't be good. Dealing 2 damage is not like impeding the draw. To be decent it should be like 5 damage.

Ok, taxing is part of white color pie. But spirit doesn't strictly tax, it has an effect that could be easily justified in a red card in my opinion... named like "contagious idiot". Plus, white recently received the best hatebear wich is thalia, so no real reasons to give white another one. Then again, why the hell spirit of the labirinth is a 3/1 ? A fucking spirit sitting on a chair looks like a 1/3 at most to me , or 0/x. Even the stats look more red than white.

I agree though with who said that red recently started to get some draw/discard effects... but i hope they will print some decent effect of this kind for red, or it is just a joke.

[FieryBalrog]

.

Ok, taxing is part of white color pie. But spirit doesn't strictly tax, it has an effect that could be easily justified in a red card in my opinion... named like "contagious idiot".

Um, no?

If you want to complain about how red is weak, I think most people agree with that. Has nothing to do with this card whatsoever. Snapcaster should've been red- that's a legitimate argument.

[Cire]

What about SOL and Winds of Change? 1WR and reduce each player to top deck mode? You can get that combo going by turn 2, and have fun beating down with a 3/1.. . .

[Barook]

What about SOL and Winds of Change? 1WR and reduce each player to top deck mode? You can get that combo going by turn 2, and have fun beating down with a 3/1.. . .
WoC is terrbile by itself.


Two times. Two times I tried to bring discussion to this interaction, but no one ever cared.
Is it powerful enough to be included in one deck, esp. in one that... is blue?
I don't think that interaction is worth discussing because if you play Clique, you'll also play Brainstorm since it's the better card.

It might come up though when the opponent has a SoL in play and you play Clique.

[Cire]

WoC is terrbile by itself. .
yeah but the possibility of reducing everyone to topdeck mode with you with 2 lands and a 3/1 and them with probably just a land and a card in hand, is sort of appealing.

[Lemnear]

yeah but the possibility of reducing everyone to topdeck mode with you with 2 lands and a 3/1 and them with probably just a land and a card in hand, is sort of appealing.

You are aware that instant creature removal is a thing?

[TsumiBand]

You are aware that instant creature removal is a thing?

Even without including the context of this comment, this is the literal worst argument against running a creature. Why do people even bother saying anything that remotely resembles "It Can Be Answered"? There are very few cards in the game that do not have a trump, if not several.
If I were Q for a day I would wipe every trace of this kind of argument and its germane tangents from the memory and history of Magic. It's this ambiguous bogeyman, always floating over the 'pros' of a card and cited as this ever-present 'con' that somehow theoretically keeps the game in check. That answers to a card exist is completely irrelevant when discussing its merits.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What about SOL and Winds of Change? 1WR and reduce each player to top deck mode? You can get that combo going by turn 2, and have fun beating down with a 3/1.. . .

A bit like Rack-Balance decks of old.
IDK, it seems weak, vulnerable, slow, unreliable and dangerous.
weak: so both players will lose hands, but the opponent at least draws one card of the Winds.
vulnerable: ok, lets not bring the "dies to removal" cliche
slow: the fastest you may play it is turn 3, turn2 with Mox.
unreliable: you need to find Winds, and Winds without SotL do quite nothing.
dangerous: Ok, Cepahalid Colliseum says a lot, but what if the opponent starts with Gemstone Mine/USea, are you sure it's TES. Might be Dredge or Reanimator.

I don't like it. Cool for casual games, but that's all.

[Lemnear]

Even without including the context of this comment, this is the literal worst argument against running a creature. Why do people even bother saying anything that remotely resembles "It Can Be Answered"? There are very few cards in the game that do not have a trump, if not several.
If I were Q for a day I would wipe every trace of this kind of argument and its germane tangents from the memory and history of Magic. It's this ambiguous bogeyman, always floating over the 'pros' of a card and cited as this ever-present 'con' that somehow theoretically keeps the game in check. That answers to a card exist is completely irrelevant when discussing its merits.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

We have stated that the effect of SotL is likely only mediocre and that WoC is bad. Why should you ever want to combine 2 of such cards for an effect that only allows you to discard like 2-4 lf your opponents cards, compared with other available 2-card-combos like Grindstone and Painter's Servant? The combo with WoC is much more fragile with a significant weaker effect.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

We have stated that the effect of SotL is likely only mediocre and that WoC is bad. Why should you ever want to combine 2 of such cards for an effect that only allows you to discard like 2-4 lf your opponents cards, compared with other available 2-card-combos like Grindstone and Painter's Servant? The combo with WoC is much more fragile with a significant weaker effect.

Btw. What are you trying to say with the bolded part?

"Germane tangents" can be simplified to "closely related ideas"

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[rufus]

Winds of Change is also pretty decent with Land Tax, and you could run Burning Inquiry,Shocker, and Molten Psyche as other turnover effects. It'd still be bad.

[TsumiBand]

We have stated that the effect of SotL is likely only mediocre and that WoC is bad. Why should you ever want to combine 2 of such cards for an effect that only allows you to discard like 2-4 lf your opponents cards, compared with other available 2-card-combos like Grindstone and Painter's Servant? The combo with WoC is much more fragile with a significant weaker effect.

Winds of Change is just one interaction. SotL's 'mediocrity' is putative, it bears actual testing. As with all new cards that appear to be worth their salt, they have to pass the sleeve test. Everything else is just wind.
In fact - because I do suspect it to be a worthwhile card, my cheap budget penny-pinching no-local-Legacy-scene-to-speak-of ass threw down an undisclosed amount of GP to upgrade my icky BW Deadguy list, to prepare for such testing. So we shall just have to see what happens. As my stepfather's old Poker friends are fond of saying - "money talks and bullshit walks; however, the cards speak for themselves."

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Whippoorwill]

I don't think that interaction is worth discussing because if you play Clique, you'll also play Brainstorm since it's the better card.

It might come up though when the opponent has a SoL in play and you play Clique.

You definitely don't want them together, but if SoL becomes popular I can see Clique gaining popularity. Having Clique + Karakas in play seems pretty good against a SoL player since you can essentially lock them out of non-instants/non-lands.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Winds of Change is also pretty decent with Land Tax, and you could run Burning Inquiry,Shocker, and Molten Psyche as other turnover effects. It'd still be bad.

Strange deck.

[Barook]

You definitely don't want them together, but if SoL becomes popular I can see Clique gaining popularity. Having Clique + Karakas in play seems pretty good against a SoL player since you can essentially lock them out of non-instants/non-lands.
I forgot about Karakas, but that makes it a 3-card combo (although each part is good on its own).

I can see that this could be a major nuisance.

[joemauer]

You definitely don't want them together, but if SoL becomes popular I can see Clique gaining popularity. Having Clique + Karakas in play seems pretty good against a SoL player since you can essentially lock them out of non-instants/non-lands.

It is funny to me that the best answer to anything crazy/bad/annoying that WotC prints is always some sort of blue card.

[FieryBalrog]

They should have just made it a one-drop W/B hybrid to be the Orzhov Deathrite Shaman.

"Thou shalt not think too much."

[Lemnear]

They should have just made it a one-drop W/B hybrid to be the Orzhov Deathrite Shaman.

"Thou shalt not think too much."

A turn 1 3/1 what basically prevent your opponent from finding solution? People have sure not learned from the Lodestone Golem issue which basically killed Vintage years ago...

[FieryBalrog]

A turn 1 3/1 what basically prevent your opponent from finding solution? People have sure not learned from the Lodestone Golem issue which basically killed Vintage years ago...

Make it a 1/2.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Make it a 1/2.

And? It's not like the main trouble of Golem are the 5/3 stats, are they?

[BVB09]

Does SotL make Sylvan Library an auto-soft lock?

[Lemnear]

Does SotL make Sylvan Library an auto-soft lock?

No, Library has a may-clause

[Barook]

Does SotL make Sylvan Library an auto-soft lock?
Sylvan Library

Clear case of RTFC.


At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

[BVB09]

Ahh great, thanks guys!
I have never seen somebody chosing not to draw 3 that I completely forgot it wasn't mandatory.

[Greenpoe]

Since it counts as an enchantment, I plan on running SotL in Enchantress.

[/troll]

[Barook]

Considering it's white and not black, I think they missed a great opportunity to add flash to it.

[Scott]

Considering it's white and not black, I think they missed a great opportunity to add flash to it.

The stack is confusing for the brand's target demographic.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Snapcaster nd notion thief don't give a fuck. It would have been better for it to have had flash.

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[Norm]

Snapcaster nd notion thief don't give a fuck. It would have been better for it to have had flash.



Here Here!

Although it may actually be too good with flash at two mana.

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[Zombie]

Here Here!

Although it may actually be too good with flash at two mana.

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Uh, "turn target Brainstorm into Hymn at the caster, gain board presence, 1W" just "might" be too good?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well currently i don't think it's spicy enough for this format. I'm sure it will see niche play but overall it's just a beater that dies to everything TNN dies to and then more, with a slightly annoying ability. Meh.

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[Dzra]

I'm sure it will see niche play but overall it's just a beater that dies to everything TNN dies to and then more, with a slightly annoying ability.

I agree it's not the greatest right now, but that's only because Death and Taxes hasn't been the greatest lately. If True-Name Nemesis didn't put such an emphasis on creature decks having to have flying or evasive creatures then you'd definitely see Death and Taxes (and soon Spirit of the Labyrinth a lot more). Who knows, maybe it'll have a bigger impact on the cantrip decks than anticipated. It is a good card.

[DDS5]

I can see this in type 2 and maybe modern but if it's played the legacy( the only true format) in my opinion it will be a sideboarded and a 1-2 of. But will I be suprised to see people try to work it into anything... No I wont.

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[lavafrogg]

I can see this in type 2 and maybe modern but if it's played the legacy( the only true format) in my opinion it will be a sideboarded and a 1-2 of. But will I be suprised to see people try to work it into anything... No I wont.

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It is going to go in my punishing mav build over aven mind censor as soon as it comes out as I cannot play thalia mainz nd need something to stop them combo decks.

[DDS5]

It is going to go in my punishing mav build over aven mind censor as soon as it comes out as I cannot play thalia mainz nd need something to stop them combo decks.


I can see this in type 2 and maybe modern but if it's played the legacy( the only true format) in my opinion it will be a sideboarded and a 1-2 of. But will I be suprised to see people try to work it into anything... No I wont.

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That is fair ship me a list I would be interested to see it


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[Technics]

Although good against most of the field, the problem is it is symetrical, and thus bad for most decks to play. It might find a home in the few decks that can support it, and not take the hit (Deadguy/D&T) but those are really the only places, and I think there are better things to do doing (Thalia).

[(nameless one)]

Although good against most of the field, the problem is it is symetrical, and thus bad for most decks to play. It might find a home in the few decks that can support it, and not take the hit (Deadguy/D&T) but those are really the only places, and I think there are better things to do doing (Thalia).

I think Shes going to shine in Deadguy because Bob is a card advantage that doesn't draw cards.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Agreed. I think Deadguy Ale is going to become a more popular choice in the coming weeks/months.

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[Wilkin]

Agreed. I think Deadguy Ale is going to become a more popular choice in the coming weeks/months.

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I hope not.....lol that's the only deck I play. I like it when I'm not the overplayed deck, so people will have less hate for me in the board.

I'm considering running it, but a little gunshy of the 1 toughness. Already run enough guys that die to Golgari Charm.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes, but if they don't have G. Charm in hand and you have SoL out, it will be possible to race them out. They have to find it or they die. Also Wilkin, I only say that because of the card advantage it generates vs. the lacking of it in D&T. It's probably an upgrade to the higher-tiered deck.

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[Lans89]

Did people already come up with a list which fits this card best =)?

[Lemnear]

Yes, but if they don't have G. Charm in hand and you have SoL out, it will be possible to race them out. They have to find it or they die. Also Wilkin, I only say that because of the card advantage it generates vs. the lacking of it in D&T. It's probably an upgrade to the higher-tiered deck.

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I dislike the "what do you do if you have no removal or counter in your hand but only sorcery speed cantrips?" argument. The only thing that happens then, is that your opponent drops SFM into Batterskull, TNN, S&T or Sneak Attack into Griselbrand/Emrakul or start chanining spells for storm.

It's outright alien to me, that some people asume, that legacy players always have hands without counters/removal/threats/combo so SotL is amazing against them.


Reminds me of the discussion of how good Pain Seer is in modern with the strange idea in mind, that your opponent does not have creatures in a format that is ABSOLUTELY DEFINED BY CREATURES

[joemauer]

I dislike the "what do you do if you have no removal or counter in your hand but only sorcery speed cantrips?" argument. The only thing that happens then, is that your opponent drops SFM into Batterskull, TNN, S&T or Sneak Attack into Griselbrand/Emrakul or start chanining spells for storm.

It's outright alien to me, that some people asume, that legacy players always have hands without counters/removal/threats/combo so SotL is amazing against them.


Reminds me of the discussion of how good Pain Seer is in modern with the strange idea in mind, that your opponent does not have creatures in a format that is ABSOLUTELY DEFINED BY CREATURES

This is why people think SotL will probably shine in Deadguy. You can rip up the opponents hand then drop SotL in play forcing the opponents to go into topdeck mode.

So yes people will have hands without counters/removal/threats/combo against the properly built decks.

[Lemnear]

This is why people think SotL will probably shine in Deadguy. You can rip up the opponents hand then drop SotL in play forcing the opponents to go into topdeck mode.

So yes people will have hands without counters/removal/threats/combo against the properly built decks.

Sorry but when I force opponents into topdeck mode I want to close out games fast with Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf and not a fragile 3/1 w/o evasion for the same costs ... and that's the reason the Hype around SotL and Deadguy Ale is a joke if you ask me.

I'll pick up the DGA topic then WotC prints a 3/1 beater with a Hymn attached, duh

[(nameless one)]

I would rather be resolving a turn two Show and Tell with permission back up on turn two.

See how stupid that sounds.

Not all decks revolve around the same axis. Every deck has a different means of function. This card isn't about drawing it late game beating face with it, rather than an early-midgame disruption. Sure discard can force your opponent to topdeck mode early on but this card is a must deal against a lot of decks because if you can't deal with it the turn it comes, chances are you're on a premature top deck mode because your Brainstorms in hand are dead and there's no way to deal with the weenie army you're facing.

I'm not saying this card will be the next TNN but the way you describe this card, you're making it sound like we're playing Standard.

[Lemnear]

I would rather be resolving a turn two Show and Tell with permission back up on turn two.

See how stupid that sounds.

Not all decks revolve around the same axis. Every deck has a different means of function. This card isn't about drawing it late game beating face with it, rather than an early-midgame disruption. Sure discard can force your opponent to topdeck mode early on but this card is a must deal against a lot of decks because if you can't deal with it the turn it comes, chances are you're on a premature top deck mode because your Brainstorms in hand are dead and there's no way to deal with the weenie army you're facing.

I'm not saying this card will be the next TNN but the way you describe this card, you're making it sound like we're playing Standard.

The problem is that this card can't catch the usual T1 fix-my-hand-cantrip nor prevents Brainstorm being cast with SotL on the stack to fix your hand/future draw/find solution/threat/combo.

I'm confused about the idea of having Brainstorm in hand, but no mana open to cast it the moment your opponent tries to resolve SotL. :/

[joemauer]

The problem is that this card can't catch the usual T1 fix-my-hand-cantrip nor prevents Brainstorm being cast with SotL on the stack to fix your hand/future draw/find solution/threat/combo.

I'm confused about the idea of having Brainstorm in hand, but no mana open to cast it the moment your opponent tries to resolve SotL. :/

You are right SotL is very narrow. Aven Mindscensor(also narrow) being a card doesn't stop anybody from playing fetchlands or tutors but there is a deck that can utilize the card, right?

Same thing with SotL. He won't put the brakes on people playing Brainstorm, but he is a good card that may find a good home. Deadguy Ale has a lot of discard and equipment; they will appreciate this card more than any other deck that exists. Thoughtseize followed by Hymn followed by this guy followed by any Sword could be a shut out for most blue decks.

Having been on the wrong side of a Chains of Mephistos I can tell you that this guy isn't about to come a shit on every blue deck out there, but he also not nearly as bad as you make him sound.

[Lemnear]

You are right SotL is very narrow. Aven Mindscensor(also narrow) being a card doesn't stop anybody from playing fetchlands or tutors but there is a deck that can utilize the card, right?

Same thing with SotL. He won't put the brakes on people playing Brainstorm, but he is a good card that may find a good home. Deadguy Ale has a lot of discard and equipment; they will appreciate this card more than any other deck that exists. Thoughtseize followed by Hymn followed by this guy followed by any Sword could be a shut out for most blue decks.

Having been on the wrong side of a Chains of Mephistos I can tell you that this guy isn't about to come a shit on every blue deck out there, but he also not nearly as bad as you make him sound.

I never wanted it to sound like a BAD card ... my whole intention was to set the card in a more realistic context of interaction-possibilities than the hyperboles of "ZOMG! that card kills combo!"

[LeoCop 90]

So in the end spirit didn't seem to have a significant impact for the legacy metagame........ 0 spirits in top 8 a the last scg.

[TsumiBand]

So in the end spirit didn't seem to have a significant impact for the legacy metagame........ 0 spirits in top 8 a the last scg.

Yous trolling

That card has been a card for like 12 minutes. When everyone sleeved up TNN and people said it was dominating all the things, I thought that was too early to predict its impact too. And I fucken hate that guy. Let's let there be a few real games of Magic before anyone decides what a card's actual impact might be, yeah?

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[MGB]

Yous trolling

That card has been a card for like 12 minutes. When everyone sleeved up TNN and people said it was dominating all the things, I thought that was too early to predict its impact too. And I fucken hate that guy. Let's let there be a few real games of Magic before anyone decides what a card's actual impact might be, yeah?

sent from phone, don't be a dick

TNN was in top8 lists at Legacy champs like a few days after Commander release. Then at Grand Prix: Washington DC, it was basically all TNN mirrors in the top8.

I think no top8 for Spirit so far is telling and not in a good way for the card. If there is little to no Spirit @ GP:Paris this week, then the card is a bust.

[TsumiBand]

TNN was in top8 lists at Legacy champs like a few days after Commander release. Then at Grand Prix: Washington DC, it was basically all TNN mirrors in the top8.

I think no top8 for Spirit so far is telling and not in a good way for the card. If there is little to no Spirit @ GP:Paris this week, then the card is a bust.

If a card requires a running start out of the gates to be worthwhile, then why are we playing Tarmogoyf, SFM, hell even Show and Tell was bad until it wasn't. What does a card's initial showing have to do with anything?

In before "lol noob Spirit is not Goyf" I didn't say it was. Some cards take off right away, others don't. Where they go from there is 'where they end up'. Neither TNN nor SotL has had a chance to 'end up' anywhere. Let the ink dry.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[JPoJohnson]

Decks that require drawing lots of cards (High Tide) have a lot of answers mainboard
Decks that require drawing for fixing their hand (Patriot Midrange/RUG) have a lot of targetted removal.

I don't think this card is going to wreck, but I do think it's a nice card to have in a format that runs quite a few cantrips. It'll help several decks. It'll be interesting to see which decks pick it up, why and how.

[MGB]

If a card requires a running start out of the gates to be worthwhile, then why are we playing Tarmogoyf, SFM, hell even Show and Tell was bad until it wasn't. What does a card's initial showing have to do with anything?

In before "lol noob Spirit is not Goyf" I didn't say it was. Some cards take off right away, others don't. Where they go from there is 'where they end up'. Neither TNN nor SotL has had a chance to 'end up' anywhere. Let the ink dry.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Tarmogoyf was pretty immediately successful in Thresh from what I remember.

SFM wasn't SFM until the Batterskull printing, and then that combo was immediately successful.

Show and Tell, again, is a combo piece that just needed the future printing of its other half.

Unless you can sell me on Spirit of the Labyrinth as a combo piece that gets better with a future printing that interacts with it somehow a la SFM and Show and Tell... then I don't see it being successful unless it is immediately successful on its own merits.

The only cards that get exemptions from this are cards that are enablers of some kind of synergy (like the aforementioned SFM and Show and Tell). A hate-bear has to be good on its own.

[TsumiBand]

Tarmogoyf was pretty immediately successful in Thresh from what I remember.

SFM wasn't SFM until the Batterskull printing, and then that combo was immediately successful.

Show and Tell, again, is a combo piece that just needed the future printing of its other half.

Unless you can sell me on Spirit of the Labyrinth as a combo piece that gets better with a future printing that interacts with it somehow a la SFM and Show and Tell... then I don't see it being successful unless it is immediately successful on its own merits.

The only cards that get exemptions from this are cards that are enablers of some kind of synergy (like the aforementioned SFM and Show and Tell). A hate-bear has to be good on its own.

Nope

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Finn]

For what it is worth, the D+T crowd have been unimpressed with this card from the get-go. It has been hard to evaluate, but it looks likely to settle in the sb to shore up combo. This is bound to be a card that outsiders will continue to shoehorn into D+T decks for ages. But if current D+T players have it right, that will be yet another error that Standard players make when picking up the deck. Spirit of the Lab makes for some blowouts, sure. But D+T does not aim for blowouts. It aims for just above even across the board. This is because good D+T pilots can eke out extra value from their cards simply by outmaneuvering or outplaying their opponents much more often than something like RUG or Merfolk or Sneak and Show can. If the card could tread water against the nonblue stuff, I think we would be packing it. But it does not seem to be able to do that.

Brimaz is more likely to make a splash, actually. Expect this card to pop up in the main as a 2-of.

[(nameless one)]

If you do decide to run this in D&T, what do you replace?

I think it requires a radical deck idea to make this card work. Possibly a new age Stax or even the old school A Beautiful Mind.dec

A Beautiful Mind is essentially an aggro deck that uses Land Tax + Scroll Rack as a draw engine with back up Armageddon. Though I am afraid that it will look similar to D&T, which makes you ask yourself why run a unproven pile over a DtB pile.

Another idea would be in Parfait builds but when was the last time you saw that deck top8 a 32+person tournament. Also, SoL being a creature doesn't help its cause there as it can get shut down by Humility.

[Justin]

The problem with Spirit is that it's often just going to be a 3/1 for 2 that dies to enchantment hate. How often will you actually prevent your opponent from drawing extra cards with it? It doesn't seem as good against non-combo blue decks as it does at first glance, even if they are running brainstorm. Even if you have a Spirit in your opening hand, you might not get much utility out of it. Here's an example:

Blue deck Turn 1: Island/Blue Dual/Fetchland, Go
D&T Turn 1: Land, do whatever (Mom, Vial, or Pass)
Blue deck Turn 2: Island/Blue Dual/Fetchland, Go (Has at least one fetchland on board)
D&T Turn 2: Land, Casts Spirit of the Labyrinth and smiles. Blue deck responds by casting Brainstorm, draws three cards, puts two on top, cracks a fetchland, shuffles away bad cards, grabs another Island/Blue Dual, and casts Brainstorm again.

Now the blue player can counter the Spirit, or kill/exile it. He could even just chose to ignore it at this point. He's already popped off a couple Brainstorms and used a fetch. He might have his hand set up to be in a good position to win. And that's when the D&T player cast Spirit as soon as possible. If you draw Spirit later in the game, it's a lot worse. So I'm not surprised that other D&T players haven't been too impressed with it during testing.

[(nameless one)]

Making your opponent waste two Brainstorms and possibly FoWing Spirit of Labyrinth is totally fine with me.

[JPoJohnson]

Who says the brainstorms were wasted? They look more like an investment to me. The only thing burned in the end was a FoW, but Thalia could often draw that as well and is still a great card in the deck.

[Rocco111]

The problem with Spirit is that it's often just going to be a 3/1 for 2 that dies to enchantment hate.

Am sorry to intervene here but that sentence just shocked me...:really:
Quick question: in legacy, amongst all the different types of permanent you can get, which one is normally the harder to remove? Yes, enchantment! Now, if you replace enchant. hate by criters hate, ok, makes sense. But otherwise, am afraid this comment is way off the target.

Also, actually, there is one list that played it (x4) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63422
And to demonstrate that your statement was incorrect, it should also be considered that in order to play the card to its full potential (if there's any) one should play a deck that doesn't (need to) draw extra cards to begin with. Therefore, it is rather unlikely that a deck which plays U and Brainstorm (i.e.) will be likely to include it... Hence the lack of Spirit in the Top8. If no DnT can be found in the Top8, neither will you find the card.

Now I agree with what was said before: it is too early to have a proper opinion on the card. Notion Thief was supposedly a bomb, it turns out it is only used as a sideboard tech. And it is much harder to cast in terms of manacost. So let's wait and see how the card will perform (or not) this weekend during the GP to have a more accurate idea of its impact (280 players vs a good thousand and a half minimum...).

M2c

[TsumiBand]

"I once beat 45land.dec with Goblins by leading with Skirk Prospector. Because of that, I am upping my Skirk Prospectors from 2 maindeck to 4. Granted, my opponent didn't actually draw any land that game, but I'm convinced that this incident is indicative of the future of Skirk Prospector."

Deciding how people's opening 7 will look to evaluate a card's strength is not compelling, it's just storytelling. I could imagine a terrible Magic player that plays Force of Will in mono White Cats, or in a sub-par Blue deck with a poor clock and no draw spells; it would be improper to conclude, "FoW is terrible, always and forever".

I recognize that early signs point to it being not particularly impactful, but one tournament doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. It's like seeing one Top 8 without, like, Brainstorm or something, and then writing an article about how Brainstorm is losing popularity. People do this stuff all the time, and it's just useless data. Congratulations, you found a Top 8 which is statistically goofy; that's not worth a paid SCG article and speculation for the downfall of Blue dominance, it's one Top 8.

[anomie-p]

Thought I had while reading this very long thread:
Presume for the sake of argument that this card completely destroys any deck playing cantrips (I am not saying it does, just run with it for a moment)

If this is the case, then the card will get played, and cantrips will disappear from the meta. Under a meta with few cantrips played, this is a 3/1 body for 2 - the fewer cards that read 'draw' that are played in the meta, the worse this card gets.

So this card, best case, has an appeal that rises and falls with the amount of cards reading 'draw' that are being played.
This is not true of, say, Thalia.
This is not true of, say, Chalice of the Void.

People are not going to stop playing those two cards because draw spells stop being played, but they would probably stop playing Spirit of the Void if draw cards were not being played.

This leads me to conclude that, at best, this card is worse than Thalia, and worse than Chalice by the same logic - and these cards existed already and didn't stop decks like ANT from existing.

I suppose I could be off, I'm fairly terrible at legacy. But the above makes sense to me.

[Einherjer]

Legacy players shoud stop playing Cantrips because of this dude? C'mon! Ain't gonna happen.

Greetings

[Finn]

[snip]...I recognize that early signs point to it being not particularly impactful, but one tournament doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. It's like seeing one Top 8 without, like, Brainstorm or something, and then writing an article about how Brainstorm is losing popularity. People do this stuff all the time, and it's just useless data. Congratulations, you found a Top 8 which is statistically goofy; that's not worth a paid SCG article and speculation for the downfall of Blue dominance, it's one Top 8.
The two scenarios have nothing in common beyond the fact that they are both cards. Brainstorm has demonstrated countless times that it is full of win. This card has never done that. And nobody except you is referencing an article here. It is just a conversation.

This is a card that I feel myself to be in a particularly good place to evaluate as it relates to the most likely deck to run it - Death and Taxes. My opinion is further informed by testing both with and against this card. It is a bomb or a dud depending on the opponent's deck. Death and taxes has exactly zero of those kinds of cards in the main currently, and fifteen of them in the sideboard, for good reason. The pundits who are certain that this card will undo blue on its own have not the faintest idea how Death and Taxes works. The only way this card could be useful in the main of D+T would be if it was just so effective against cantrips that their cards burst into flame or something. But as it is, you cast her. She typically can not attack because her butt is so small. (D+T is not exactly a dynamo at keeping little creatures off the battlefield, after all.) Opponents almost always have to topdeck the cantrip for it to be stranded in their hand because players are not in the habit of holding them, and there are only eight of them in all those aggro-control decks that look the same through the D+T lens. So she attacks sometimes, but commonly sits there as a mild deterrent to attacks until the opponent feels like dispatching her with a -1/-1 global or draws a cantrip, making spending spot removal on her worthwhile. I used her aggressively a few times trying to take out a Delver before it flipped or a Confidant or something like that. Unfortunately that gives the opponent the choice to block or not. And this is all against a blue-centric deck. It's worse against the nonblue decks. But it's fairly good against combo. This is the making of a side board card by all appearances.

I'm still not certain, but it looks that way. I am not even considering the results of the last tournament. And I can make mistakes of course. But the deal here is the fact that the hype was not being propelled by D+T players.

[Barook]

Blue deck Turn 1: Island/Blue Dual/Fetchland, Go
D&T Turn 1: Land, do whatever (Mom, Vial, or Pass)
Blue deck Turn 2: Island/Blue Dual/Fetchland, Go (Has at least one fetchland on board)
D&T Turn 2: Land, Casts Spirit of the Labyrinth and smiles. Blue deck responds by casting Brainstorm, draws three cards, puts two on top, cracks a fetchland, shuffles away bad cards, grabs another Island/Blue Dual, and casts Brainstorm again.
And this is why Spirit should have had Flash, especially since it's in white instead of black - it increases interactivity and gives non-blue colors some ways to interact with the stack without being a blue counterspell. At worst, it could be used as pseudo-removal spell for attackers or as a suprise attacker against planeswalkers.

[Malakai]

And this is why Spirit should have had Flash, especially since it's in white instead of black - it increases interactivity and gives non-blue colors some ways to interact with the stack without being a blue counterspell. At worst, it could be used as pseudo-removal spell for attackers or as a suprise attacker against planeswalkers.

"It would be better if it had flash."

[TsumiBand]

The two scenarios have nothing in common beyond the fact that they are both cards. Brainstorm has demonstrated countless times that it is full of win. This card has never done that. And nobody except you is referencing an article here. It is just a conversation.

Right I get that, but I figured one good story deserved another; references to paid articles are strictly hyperbole.

I just can't stand it when people construct Godhands or perfect examples of when a card is bad, and invariably it involves the plaintiff deck going mildly ape-shit or having "A Very Very Good Hand" while the defendant deck "just plays fair, aww shucks". So yeah, just a conflux of things I tend to dislike -- customized starting hands that lead to sad panda blowouts or just obviating the tech, while also using exactly one Top 8 to say "well looks like the case is closed on this thing". I mean by all means, keep the price of this thing as low as possible, because I find my Magic budget in the couch cushions and under the urinal at Cracker Barrel, so let's let an amount of speculation create a negative buzz, but it's just too early to actually shut the door on it as not even being a SB card. IMO it was too early when TNN showed up everywhere in the first couple of Top 8 results to call it a new staple, SFM's late adoption wasn't to do with Batterskull at all (IIRC people liked SFM already but didn't like Batterskull, it was seen as slow/clunky/expensive unlike Sword of X and Y - took like a year to get people to shut up and smell the coffee on that one) and there are plenty more examples of the ebb and flow of Magic cards before they settle in to that place where their popularity is only affected by the relative strength of new printings (if it's even warranted to re-evaluate at that point).

FTR -- I don't necessarily see a home for this card in D+T. Especially since Brimaz is a real thing; leaving Vial set to 3 and then performing tricks with Brimaz and Karakas, or just getting there with steadily increasing combat damage, is going to be a good thing. The best home I've seen for SotL so far IMO is Deadguy Ale because it doesn't care about Dark Confidant, but… it isn't like that deck doesn't need a refit or anything. :/ :/

[anomie-p]

Legacy players shoud stop playing Cantrips because of this dude?

That is not at all what I said. Actually arguing the opposite -> It's a hypothetical that leads to a contradiction, if it actually were good enough to make people want to stop cantrips, you logically end up with a card worse than Thalia, people still play these cards with Thalia and Chalice available (and played), therefore it can't really be good enough to make people stop playing cantrips (or, for instance, decks like ANT).


Greetings

Thanks :)

[davelin]

To be fair it wasn't just it missed top 8 this past weekend, there was none in the top 32.

[Deviruchi]

To be fair it wasn't just it missed top 8 this past weekend, there was none in the top 32.

To be fair there was a decklist (14th place) that has 1 SotL in main and 2 in SB.

[davelin]

To be fair there was a decklist (14th place) that has 1 SotL in main and 2 in SB.

I stand corrected.

[Scott]

After the Legendary rule change, it took nearly two months and a number of big tournaments for Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage to show up in a top 8, and it's a player.

[Lemnear]

Congratz to all buying those at 7€ in the presale *slowclap*


After the Legendary rule change, it took nearly two months and a number of big tournaments for Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage to show up in a top 8, and it's a player.

Apples and Oranges. Jund Depths works because of P.Fire/Grove/Loam, not because it runs a random kill option. They could run Worm Harvest and would still perform good. If Marit Lage was such a gamebreaker you should ask yourself why it sucked in combination with KotR which was tried before.

SotL has nothing in common with Marit Lage.

If you want an example, take TNN which was played to T32 placings the weekend it was released at BoM

[Barook]

If Marit Lage was such a gamebreaker you should ask yourself why it sucked in combination with KotR which was tried before.
1) Only 1 copy of both DD and Thespian Stage with no Loam support.
2) Crop Rotation is way faster than KotR for tutoring
3) KotR blows since RtR due AD, DRS and RiP shitting all over her.
4) Maverick wasn't exactly a top contender (it got barely DtB status due to smaller tournaments) to begin with since rules change because the meta was extremely hostile towards it. It only got worse with TNN.

Marit Lage puts up results now. Worm Harvest can't race combo, while DD has at least a chance to do so.

[Lemnear]

1) Only 1 copy of both DD and Thespian Stage with no Loam support.
2) Crop Rotation is way faster than KotR for tutoring
3) KotR blows since RtR due AD, DRS and RiP shitting all over her.
4) Maverick wasn't exactly a top contender (it got barely DtB status due to smaller tournaments) to begin with since rules change because the meta was extremely hostile towards it. It only got worse with TNN.

Marit Lage puts up results now. Worm Harvest can't race combo, while DD has at least a chance to do so.

You miss my point completely. It was that you can not compare SotL with Marit Lage. It doesn't matter for the discussion if Loam has now a BETTER kill option than Worm Harvest; it matters that SotL had, unlike TNN, absolute Zero impact after it's release despite all the hype

[Barook]

You miss my point completely. It was that you can not compare SotL with Marit Lage. It doesn't matter for the discussion if Loam has now a BETTER kill option than Worm Harvest; it matters that SotL had, unlike TNN, absolute Zero impact after it's release despite all the hype
Marit Lage and TNN are brutal wincons.

SotL can't even compare since it's a cute hatebear with questionable impact in quite a few match-ups. Of course it won't rock the format despite Brainstorm being the most-played card.

[Lemnear]

Marit Lage and TNN are brutal wincons.

SotL can't even compare since it's a cute hatebear with questionable impact in quite a few match-ups. Of course it won't rock the format despite Brainstorm being the most-played card.

Through the whole thread, I try to tell people exactly this in regards to SotL and it's expecpected metagame impact. Drawing parallels between a "brutal wincon" and a "cute hatebear" to explain a delayed impact was a bad joke and that was the reason for me to attack the argument.

[Scott]

Apples and Oranges. Jund Depths works because of P.Fire/Grove/Loam, not because it runs a random kill option. They could run Worm Harvest and would still perform good. If Marit Lage was such a gamebreaker you should ask yourself why it sucked in combination with KotR which was tried before.

SotL has nothing in common with Marit Lage.

If you want an example, take TNN which was played to T32 placings the weekend it was released at BoM

So, you're saying that StageDepths is capable of fitting into a deck that would be good even without it, and that these decks get into top 8s of big tournaments, but it didn't happen immediately. That's what I'm saying isn't out of the realm of possibility for Spirit. I thought we were talking about it being in decks that place, not the question of if it makes a deck or is a gamebreaker.


Through the whole thread, I try to tell people exactly this in regards to SotL and it's expecpected metagame impact. Drawing parallels between a "brutal wincon" and a "cute hatebear" to explain a delayed impact was a bad joke and that was the reason for me to attack the argument.

Are you saying that hatebear pieces are less capable of having a delayed impact than a powerful wincon? (Sometimes questions asked in text sound snarky, but I'm genuinely curious.)

[Lemnear]

So, you're saying that StageDepths is capable of fitting into a deck that would be good even without it, and that these decks get into top 8s of big tournaments, but it didn't happen immediately. That's what I'm saying isn't out of the realm of possibility for Spirit. I thought we were talking about it being in decks that place, not the question of if it makes a deck or is a gamebreaker.

Are you saying that hatebear pieces are less capable of having a delayed impact than a powerful wincon? (Sometimes questions asked in text sound snarky, but I'm genuinely curious.)

1) Marit Lage is just a supreme wincon in a returning archetype ... that is all. SotL isn't a supreme tump to the format not an outstanding threat. It does nothing gamebreaking or extraordinare in terms of being a hatebear. I say that it's clearly inferior to Thalia and therefore I have no hope for this card being an outstanding performer like TNN within the current cardpool. Dunno how to express it better atm.

2) I'm sure that THREATS define the metagame more than SOLUTIONS in general. If it weren't for the T1/2 combo decks, barely anyone would run FoW, so combo defines the place of FoW in Legacy; If Legacy would not be such a creature centric format, no one would maindeck StoP; etc. (attention: hyperboles). SotL is a SOLUTION to Brainstorm which is hilariously even too slow to catch it at 2cc sorcery speed.

I'm not even sure if something like "delayed impact" even exists or if it is not just a consequence of a changing metagame like in the case of Jund Dephts.

[lordofthepit]

So in the end spirit didn't seem to have a significant impact for the legacy metagame........ 0 spirits in top 8 a the last scg.

It saw pretty much as much play as Thalia did in the top 8/16/32. I would still consider Thalia pretty impactful in Legacy, even if it's not on the level of something like True-Name Nemesis.

[(nameless one)]

It saw pretty much as much play as Thalia did in the top 8/16/32. I would still consider Thalia pretty impactful in Legacy, even if it's not on the level of something like True-Name Nemesis.

The same can also be said to Stoneforge Mystic and Deathrite Shaman when they first came out.

[FatPow]

Even though I like the card and the obvious intention behind it, I have to say that it's very easy to overestimate it. Its impact on the format will not be as big as some might think. Contrary to the general perception, Blue and specifically draw effects like Brainstorm aren't as dominant as people use to think. Decks like Jund, Junk, Goblins, NicFit, Merfolk etc. are still not uncommon and this new card barely hurts these. You just can't afford to run cards that hardly do anything in a good amount of matchups. In Legacy, a important criteria for the validity of a card is its applicability in a preferably wide range of matchups and this card does certainly not fulfill this.

I agree with the statement that it may not be worth throwing this fragile creature into a deck to hate out only a certain percentage of the metagame, but you can certainly design your deck around the card to make it advantageous even against Dark Confidant decks and Death and Taxes.

Think of the synergy between Spirit of the Labyrinth and...


Vendilion Clique
Dream Fracture
Temple Bell
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea


I'm sure we can think of others. If you synergize with the rest of your deck, I think this card can warrant 4 in the main deck.

Edit: Wheel and Deal !!!!!!!!!!!

[Echelon]

I'm sure we can think of others. If you synergize with the rest of your deck, I think this card can warrant 4 in the main deck.

What you're saying here is that one should build a deck with less-then-optimal cards that only really shine when you have a SotL on the battlefield. If your opponent manages to keep you from accomplishing that, your deck is pretty much dead. Seeing all the sweepers and spotremoval being played at the moment, do you honestly think you can keep your opponent from doing that?

The only reason you should be playing a deck revolving around just 1 key card is if that card can outright win you the game pretty much as soon as it resolves, i.e. Show and Tell.

[Lemnear]

What you're saying here is that one should build a deck with less-then-optimal cards that only really shine when you have a SotL on the battlefield. If your opponent manages to keep you from accomplishing that, your deck is pretty much dead. Seeing all the sweepers and spotremoval being played at the moment, do you honestly think you can keep your opponent from doing that?

The only reason you should be playing a deck revolving around just 1 key card is if that card can outright win you the game pretty much as soon as it resolves, i.e. Show and Tell.

Even S&T is paired with Sneak Attack or Dream Halls to have not all eggs in a single basket. Overall, all scenarios in which SotL shines have a big question mark over it's head and include a shitload of "if"s

[FatPow]

What you're saying here is that one should build a deck with less-then-optimal cards that only really shine when you have a SotL on the battlefield. If your opponent manages to keep you from accomplishing that, your deck is pretty much dead. Seeing all the sweepers and spotremoval being played at the moment, do you honestly think you can keep your opponent from doing that?

The only reason you should be playing a deck revolving around just 1 key card is if that card can outright win you the game pretty much as soon as it resolves, i.e. Show and Tell.


Temple Bell may be dead without Spirit (and Wheel and Deal is obviously way too risky), but Vendilion Clique, Dream Fracture, and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea certainly aren't.
How about something like this:


2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Mystic Snake
3 Restoration Angel
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Force of Will
4 Dream Fracture
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial


Sideboard:


4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Rest in Peace
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of War and Peace

[Zllig]

Temple Bell may be dead without Spirit (and Wheel and Deal is obviously way too risky), but Vendilion Clique, Dream Fracture, and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea certainly aren't.
How about something like this:


2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Mystic Snake
3 Restoration Angel
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Force of Will
4 Dream Fracture
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial


Sideboard:


4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Rest in Peace
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of War and Peace


Screw Dream Fracture, roll with Arcane Denial. 2 mana and you get dat RFK art.

[Valtrix]

Arcane denial really only works well for countering things on your turn if you're trying to abuse spirit. Otherwise you draw none and they draw one.

[MGB]

Two big Legacy tournaments since its printing and the message is clear: this card will probably be a fringe player in a few decks from here on out.

Clearly this card was overrated from the start. It will never have any kind of significant impact on the format.

[SirTylerGalt]

Two big Legacy tournaments since its printing and the message is clear: this card will probably be a fringe player in a few decks from here on out.

Clearly this card was overrated from the start. It will never have any kind of significant impact on the format.

Never say never :)


It would be great in Zoo. I know a few Junk player who started toying with it. It's also played in a few D&T lists.

[MGB]

Never say never :)


It would be great in Zoo. I know a few Junk player who started toying with it. It's also played in a few D&T lists.

The questions are always better than the answers.

That's how it always works in Magic. You can print the best hate cards ever, and yet, the threats it is trying to answer will still win >60% of those meetings.

[apple713]

This card is what anvil of bogardan always wanted chains of Mephistopheles to be.

Its a hard lock on draws. You cant cast spells while anvil is resolving. Unless you have lost board position there is a really good chance you win if they dont have removal.

Pairs very well with white and black pox. Empty hands deny draws. Destroy lands. Pox loses many of its games cause opponents draw out of the position you put them in. Thus would ensure that doesnt happen

[Mr.C]

This card is what anvil of bogardan always wanted chains of Mephistopheles to be.

Its a hard lock on draws. You cant cast spells while anvil is resolving. Unless you have lost board position there is a really good chance you win if they dont have removal.

Pairs very well with white and black pox. Empty hands deny draws. Destroy lands. Pox loses many of its games cause opponents draw out of the position you put them in. Thus would ensure that doesnt happen

Hmmm. I like that.

[from Cairo]

You can print the best hate cards ever, and yet, the threats it is trying to answer will still win >60% of those meetings.

I think I follow your point - that at the same CMC generally posing a threat / being proactive is better than having answers that might not line up with a given threat. IE Casting Spirit of the Labyrinth, only to have the opponent Brainstorm in response and find removal puts the SotL player more than likely behind. You've both used 2 mana. The BS player trades 1 for 1 with their removal (likely Swords or Bolt) and still has the power of Brainstorm utilized to bury (shuffle away) lackluster cards.

The "best hate cards ever" are such because their hate apply to the broadest selections of cards (Thalia, Swords/Bolt/Decay) or because they answer things at a much cheaper cost than the threats cost (Red Elemental Blast, Terminus). One could even shift these examples around; Bolting or STPing a CMC 2+ creature is efficient tempo; Terminus and REB are at their best when they're hitting a large percentage of the opponent's of potential threats.

Hate cards that apply to narrow selections of the opponent's deck and cost more than the cards they're answering are often not good enough. There are exceptions to this rule though - Krosan Grip is the best example of this that comes to my mind.

[apple713]

The "best hate cards ever" are such because their hate apply to the broadest selections of cards (Thalia, Swords/Bolt/Decay) or because they answer things at a much cheaper cost than the threats cost (Red Elemental Blast, Terminus). One could even shift these examples around; Bolting or STPing a CMC 2+ creature is efficient tempo; Terminus and REB are at their best when they're hitting a large percentage of the opponent's of potential threats.

Hate cards that apply to narrow selections of the opponent's deck and cost more than the cards they're answering are often not good enough. There are exceptions to this rule though - Krosan Grip is the best example of this that comes to my mind.

they tried making good hate cards. Mental misstep was printed and it was slightly too good.... Its hard to find a balance but i think they could do better. The issue is that they have to make good cards for legacy through sets in standard. so it has to be not format warping in standard but good enough for legacy. Thats pretty tough...

[from Cairo]

For sure, power level and balance across formats is a thing. Theros block Constructed power level is comparably weak compared to something like Innistrad block. I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is probably pretty decent as a couple of in Standard White Weenie strategies, randomly blanks a Sphinx's Rev or checks multiple Underworld Connections. It trades evenly CMC-wise with non-mass removal and has enough power to not be blanked offensively by Caryatid or something similar. One can't just say it should have been more aggressively costed at CMC 1 (to be at parity with Brainstorm or Legacy removal) and losing a point of Power to not make it completely ridiculous, giving Standard 3x 2/1s at 1cc would likely have been imbalanced in Standard.

[apple713]

For sure, power level and balance across formats is a thing. Theros block Constructed power level is comparably weak compared to something like Innistrad block. I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is probably pretty decent as a couple of in Standard White Weenie strategies, randomly blanks a Sphinx's Rev or checks multiple Underworld Connections. It trades evenly CMC-wise with non-mass removal and has enough power to not be blanked offensively by Caryatid or something similar. One can't just say it should have been more aggressively costed at CMC 1 (to be at parity with Brainstorm or Legacy removal) and losing a point of Power to not make it completely ridiculous, giving Standard 3x 2/1s at 1cc would likely have been imbalanced in Standard.

i would have rather them waited and printed it later as a 1 CMC 2/1 than 2cmc 3/1. It's incredibly important that it comes down turn 1 if it is to have affect on the game.

[from Cairo]

Can't have it all I guess. Given the bar set by Theros, the large set of the block, best Eternal card - Swan Song. I'm surprised we even ended up with Spirit, in it's current form, and Brimaz. Based on the first set, I honestly wasn't expecting anything but a decent limited format from this entire block.

Either way, I can't sweat a lackluster block. As you mentioned with waiting, given power creep and Wizard's inclination to wax//wane Standard power level, there's always next block.

[Vacrix]

So which "cards -> strategies" are hated by this card:

- Brainstorm (Hymn myself) -> 80% of the format
- Sorceryspeed cantrips -> Blue control
- Sensei's Divining Top -> Miracles
- Griselbrand -> Sneak&Show, Reanimator
- Enter the Infinite -> Omnitell
- Sylvan Library -> Jund, Maverick, Team America
- Carefull Study, Faithless Looting etc -> Dredge, Reanimator
- Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionairy -> Elves
...

Pretty good. First True-Name Nemesis, now this.. It makes me sad.
http://replygif.net/i/718.gif

[IL_casual]

Im hoping there is a awesome legendary version of this just around the corner ala glowrider >> thalia.
Hoping for a legendary
W
Flash
Players can only draw 1 card per turn.
1/2

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[Demonic_Attorney]

Quote Originally Posted by Tom T View Post
"So which "cards -> strategies" are hated by this card:

- Brainstorm (Hymn myself) -> 80% of the format
- Sorcery speed cantrips -> Blue control
- Sensei's Divining Top -> Miracles
- Griselbrand -> Sneak&Show, Reanimator
- Enter the Infinite -> Omnitell
- Sylvan Library -> Jund, Maverick, Team America
- Carefull Study, Faithless Looting etc -> Dredge, Reanimator
- Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionairy -> Elves"
...

Well said, sir.

It seems ostensible that the people that are saying "this card is overrated" haven't actually played it in a sanctioned or competitive legacy tournament yet, nor have they analyzed the present metagame carefully with any meaningful type of scrutiny. I say this because if they had, they would realized the aforementioned facts outlined above by Tom T who has really only began to scratch the surface on this card's insane potential in the present legacy metagame; albeit in the right deck(s).

Indeed, it is common ground with pretty much anybody that plays legacy right now that blue is the most powerful colour in the format. Furthermore, when some of the top legacy players in the world were asked to name the most powerful card (pound-for-pound) in legacy right now the answer came back as Brainstorm. This card is restricted in vintage and any deck in legacy capable of producing blue mana is likely sporting a full play set.

What this card does to Canadian Threshold, Team America, Storm, Sneak Show, Reanimator, Dredge and Miracles is absolutely devastating. When they need to remove a troublesome creature in the past they usually search or dig for an answer instead now, they simply have to wait for one if it is not already in hand. An aggressive strategy that punishes this slow and in any event, not immediate response to spirit like zoo use to do has strong potential to severally punish these decks that not only run several of these draw cards and cantrips, but they manifestly rely upon them for their deck to function optimally.

Indeed, a shift in the metagame could significantly reduce this card's popularity and effectiveness; however, right now is is just what the doctor ordered for this stale metagame presently plaguing the legacy format which should offer a lot more diversity given the extremely large card pool to play from. Even if the metagame shifts, brainstorm, ponder and jace will always be popular in legacy for years to come and, therefore, this card will have a home in legacy as long as those cards do.

[Finn]

Uhh, newsflash. After careful consideration and testing...It sucks.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Uhh, newsflash. After careful consideration and testing...It sucks.

Well simply based on that conjectured statement alone I suspect that you have done little to no actual playtesting (let alone carefully and competently) against the top blue based decks presently in the legacy metagame where it would quite frankly be impossible for Spirit to "suck".

Indeed, when over 80% of the top decks in the present legacy metagame sport a full set of brainstorms and other cantrips and draw cards it really does tend to effectively undermine your bald and conclusory statement that "it sucks".

Newsflash, do some actual real playtesting against the top decks in legacy right now, even against experienced legacy players piloting those decks (i.e. Canadian Threshold, Team America, Storm, Sneak Show, Reanimator, Miracles, etc.) and you will inevitably see just how nonsensical your previous statement is!

[DragoFireheart]

Well simply based on that conjectured statement alone I suspect that you have done little to no actual playtesting

You're talking to the guy that pretty much invented Death and Taxes.

I'd say his word holds a shit ton more weight than yours.

[davelin]

Well simply based on that conjectured statement alone I suspect that you have done little to no actual playtesting (let alone carefully and competently) against the top blue based decks presently in the legacy metagame where it would quite frankly be impossible for Spirit to "suck".

Indeed, when over 80% of the top decks in the present legacy metagame sport a full set of brainstorms and other cantrips and draw cards it really does tend to effectively undermine your bald and conclusory statement that "it sucks".

Newsflash, do some actual real playtesting against the top decks in legacy right now, even against experienced legacy players piloting those decks (i.e. Canadian Threshold, Team America, Storm, Sneak Show, Reanimator, Miracles, etc.) and you will inevitably see just how nonsensical your previous statement is!

If this is true, why hasn't it shown itself in winning decklists since it's become legal?

[Grand Superior]

You're talking to the guy that pretty much invented Death and Taxes.

I'd say his word holds a shit ton more weight than yours.

Was going to post this but you beat me to it.

For what its worth, I primarily only play blue decks with Brainstorm and Ponder and I wish Spirit of the Labyrinth was better. It's a very interesting and interactive card that had serious potential to propel nonblue strategies. It's a shame it didn't make much of an impact at all. Having 1 toughness in the TNN world really hurt the card.

Maybe we'll see it in the future. I know I'll be glad if we do.

[Lord Seth]

For sure, power level and balance across formats is a thing. Theros block Constructed power level is comparably weak compared to something like Innistrad block. I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is probably pretty decent as a couple of in Standard White Weenie strategies, randomly blanks a Sphinx's Rev or checks multiple Underworld Connections. It trades evenly CMC-wise with non-mass removal and has enough power to not be blanked offensively by Caryatid or something similar. One can't just say it should have been more aggressively costed at CMC 1 (to be at parity with Brainstorm or Legacy removal) and losing a point of Power to not make it completely ridiculous, giving Standard 3x 2/1s at 1cc would likely have been imbalanced in Standard.
As someone who plays White Weenie in Standard, Spirit of the Labyrinth isn't that impressive. Outside of control, the only card it's really relevant against that I can think of is Bident of Thassa. And while your opponent drawing a bunch of cards off of that is dangerous, if they're connecting with that many creatures, then you're probably already in big trouble and that Spirit of the Labyrinth isn't going to help you.

It's at its best in the UWx control matchup. But even there I don't find it that impressive. It's good against Sphinx's Revelation... but in my experience, if they're casting Sphinx's Revelation for anything more than X=2, you're in some really big trouble because it means you haven't managed to kill them yet. Sphinx's Revelation isn't the card that beats you, it's the card they cast after the card that beats you (usually Supreme Verdict) to seal the deal.

Essentially, what Spirit of the Labyrinth does for you in Standard is that it can help prevent bad situations from getting even worse. You'd rather be playing Precinct Captain, Imposing Sovereign, or Daring Skyjek, cards that can help you avoid getting into that bad situation in the first place. Or at least that's the way I see it. It is better than Azorius Arrester, at least. It might be worth it in some meta that's absolutely filled with UWx control decks, but otherwise I find it weaker than the other choices.

[HammafistRoob]

I knew this card was overrated by a long shot when I first saw it. Even the dream scenario people were coming up with of Vialing it out in response to a Brainstorm was quite flawed. I'm pretty sure most people aren't stupid enough to cast a Brainstorm when this Spirit just got printed and you have an untapped Vial set on 2 that for some reason you're not using.

About Tom T's little post that was recently quoted, lets just clear a few things up.

It doesn't make Brainstorm "hymn yourself", they cast it on your turn (drawing 1) to put two extra crap cards on top and fetch. This still basically gets them card parity and they'd only do this if necessary. Even Ponder can still be cast if they're desperate for an answer to something or that last combo piece to win. It obviously makes these cards a lot worse but they aren't dead cards by any means.

Sylvan Library has a may trigger. So sure it gets turned off by Spirit, but Sylvan isn't heavily played at all, it's mostly seen as a 1-of. I wouldn't really consider this that much of a plus for the card

How does this even affect the Miracle mechanic at all? It also barely touches Sensei's Top at all so idk what to say...

It does nothing at all against Dredge either... soo... yeah

It is great against GrizzlB, but I'm pretty sure D&T already has a good Reanimator and Sneak Show matchup so this point isn't the most persuasive.

It's good against Elves as well. But it doesn't stop Natural Order or GSZ, which are the main cards to worry about from Elves. I'm also pretty sure running 4 of these wouldn't even make your matchup against them 50-50.

Enter the Infinite does get stopped, but they do have Cunning Wish to answer so it's not a hard lock or anything. I'd say Thalia is still better here than Spirit, granted this isn't the best argument against the card in this particular matchup.

[Demonic_Attorney]

You're talking to the guy that pretty much invented Death and Taxes.

I'd say his word holds a shit ton more weight than yours.

You can say what ever you wish as my extensive play testing and the success I have had don't lie. Furthermore, it was rather incongruous of you to infer that I was play testing it, using it or referring to it in the context of Death & Taxes. There are more decks that it can fit into other than Death & Taxes.

When more predominant pros such as Drew Levin, Gerry Thompson and Sam Black share my views and opinions on the card, his word in isolated to one deck (that I don't play) means nothing to the card as a whole. I have no idea what decks he has tested Spirit with and against, or how much time he has spent doing same.

Drew discusses Spirit in the context of Death & Taxes, infra, which is a deck that I don't play, would never play and IS NOT one of the decks that I have been play testing it in. Therefore, his words stating "that it sucks" is presumably based exclusively with his own playing testing strictly in the context of Death & Taxes and I have taken a much broader view.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27774_Spirit-Of-The-Labyrinth.html

[Finn]

Well, if I were being uncharitable to Mr. Levin I would say that he was guessing, had done no proper testing at all when he wrote that, and basically had no idea what he was talking about. But I have more couth than that, so let's just leave his article at "dated". For what it is worth, I too felt that Zoo was the better home back when I had not yet discovered that the card is dead weight.

Every person I spoke to at the time (outside of the DnT players and a few veterans on this site) was similarly convinced that the card was the messiah. Needless to say, we testers were hopeful but dubious from the start, and found out early that it was not very good. But I thought everyone had figured it out by now around here.

I really have put it through the ringer, Demonic Attorney. It's such a long explanation why, but it just does not do what folks had hoped. I offer you the shortcut of not bothering with this one.

[MGB]

Well, if I were being uncharitable to Mr. Levin I would say that he was guessing, had done no proper testing at all when he wrote that, and basically had no idea what he was talking about. But I have more couth than that, so let's just leave his article at "dated". For what it is worth, I too felt that Zoo was the better home back when I had not yet discovered that the card is dead weight.

Every person I spoke to at the time (outside of the DnT players and a few veterans on this site) was similarly convinced that the card was the messiah. Needless to say, we testers were hopeful but dubious from the start, and found out early that it was not very good. But I thought everyone had figured it out by now around here.

I really have put it through the ringer, Demonic Attorney. It's such a long explanation why, but it just does not do what folks had hoped. I offer you the shortcut of not bothering with this one.

Could you possibly go into more detail re: your testing results in the DnT shell?

This card and DnT just seemed like the perfect marriage when it was spoiled and I am really at a loss as to why DnT players just write it off as "sucking".

[Demonic_Attorney]

Well, if I were being uncharitable to Mr. Levin I would say that he was guessing, had done no proper testing at all when he wrote that, and basically had no idea what he was talking about. But I have more couth than that, so let's just leave his article at "dated". For what it is worth, I too felt that Zoo was the better home back when I had not yet discovered that the card is dead weight.

Every person I spoke to at the time (outside of the DnT players and a few veterans on this site) was similarly convinced that the card was the messiah. Needless to say, we testers were hopeful but dubious from the start, and found out early that it was not very good. But I thought everyone had figured it out by now around here.

I really have put it through the ringer, Demonic Attorney. It's such a long explanation why, but it just does not do what folks had hoped. I offer you the shortcut of not bothering with this one.

Well, in large measure that is what these forums are for, long, detailed and comprehensive explanations, particularly on important issues like these ones. So, I would be enthralled if you would kindly enlighten myself, and others as well with this explanation why even if it is a long one?

I agree that Spirit is not the messiah, nor is it single handily a game changer; however, it is still a solid card in some decks and has a lot of potential in the present legacy metagame. I respectfully think that you go way too far in asserting that “it sucks” and is “dead weight”. Other predominant legacy players STILL (even now) disagree with you in this particular regard and many others see its value and my play testing against the six (6) best decks in the format also dissents with such statements. I assume that you’re playing testing of this card has been limited to Death & Taxes only? I myself cannot remember play testing a card more since Pouncing Jaguar and Albino Troll came on the scene in Urza’s Saga for the then standard format. Spirit will see play, just give it time and you will see; perhaps not in Death & Taxes but it will in other decks.

[Demonic_Attorney]

It does nothing at all against Dredge either... soo... yeah


Careful Study? Faithless Looting? Breakthrough? Enough Said??

[from Cairo]

Careful Study? Faithless Looting? Breakthrough? Enough Said??

As long as you're replacing your draws with Dredge effects, Spirit of the Labyrinth does nothing. If you're unable to do that you're probably losing to something more than the 3/1.

[davelin]

Careful Study? Faithless Looting? Breakthrough? Enough Said??

Not all Dredge lists play those cards, plus anyone playing dredge will have started the dredge engine before Spirit comes down.

[Lord Seth]

Careful Study? Faithless Looting? Breakthrough? Enough Said??
If they're skipping their draws to activate Dredge, then Spirit of the Labyrinth does absolutely nothing because it only stops people from drawing cards; it doesn't stop them from doing things instead of drawing cards.

Now, it's true that if they don't have a Dredge card in the graveyard when casting those--or, alternatively, they don't have enough to replace all of the draws--then Spirit of the Labyrinth does cut off the draw. The problem is that in those cases, the main reason to cast those cards is to throw stuff into the graveyard (the draw isn't that important if you're not using it to dredge), and Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't stop discard.

[Lemnear]

Am I right if I say that an old topic is brought back to the surface because of misunderstanding trigger and not reading through the thread where all mentioned points and interactions were already discussed?

It was mentioned that Sylvan has a may-clause, Ponder still digs for x (even with carddisadvantage), SotL can't catch turn 1 cantrips (nor turn 2 cantrips on the draw), does nothing against a flying 7/7 lifelinker/Random Fatty other than negating the draw-ability and is the worst hatebear ever against storm (would be funny if this point would be questioned after doubting Finn's D&T analysis).

This card basically reduces itself to Brainstorm-hate in Legacy aside from cornercases (which run solutions anyways) and is far too slow for it's intended purpose.

All that I said from the very beginning in this thread.

[Scott]

If this is true, why hasn't it shown itself in winning decklists since it's become legal?

I mean, since Spirit came out, in tournaments of at least six rounds, it's been in two top 8 decks and two top 16 decks, while Thalia's been in three top 8 decks and three top 16 decks. It's not a big discrepancy, and no one's calling Thalia a dud.

[twndomn]

This card basically reduces itself to Brainstorm-hate in Legacy aside from cornercases (which run solutions anyways) and is far too slow for it's intended purpose.

All that I said from the very beginning in this thread.

Not exactly, this card along with Thalia is Vial deck's best weapon against combo. Think about decks that run Vial and no brainstorm: Merfolk, Goblin, DnT. For DnT, it might be win more, for the other 2, it's must have. The so-called Solutions doesn't mean they'll always have it. Even if they know about Spirit somehow, they'll still play Brainstorm, Griselbrand, Jace. Hence I don't see why not if you run Vial.

[Meekrab]

If they're skipping their draws to activate Dredge, then Spirit of the Labyrinth does absolutely nothing because it only stops people from drawing cards; it doesn't stop them from doing things instead of drawing cards.

Now, it's true that if they don't have a Dredge card in the graveyard when casting those--or, alternatively, they don't have enough to replace all of the draws--then Spirit of the Labyrinth does cut off the draw. The problem is that in those cases, the main reason to cast those cards is to throw stuff into the graveyard (the draw isn't that important if you're not using it to dredge), and Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't stop discard.
Uh, it doesn't? Gatherer says it does:


1/1/2014 If a replacement effect would try to replace a card that you can’t draw, that effect can’t apply.

[Holly]

Uh, it doesn't? Gatherer says it does:

If you never drew a card in the turn (because you dredged) the replacement effect of Spirit never comes to effect since no card was drawn at all.

Example:
Dredge-player has a dredger in his yard and decides to dredge in his draw phase.
Mainphase he plays a looting. Now he could:
draw 1, discard 2.
Dredge 1, draw 1, discard 2.
Dredge 2, discard 2.
However he could NOT draw 1, dredge 1 since he isn't able to replace the second draw with a dredge since he allready drew a card this turn.

If he choses to draw in his drawstep and casts a looting he can't neither draw nor dredge.

[HammafistRoob]

Just clearing things up a bit, Spirit's ability is not a replacement effect, but a static ability.

[Meekrab]

I obviously missed the fact that the dredge player can dredge their draw for the turn and then keep dredging; these are the things that happen when I wake up at 7am on the weekend.