Stoneforge Mystic = (modern day, slightly weaker) Oath of Druids

[MGB]

Stoneforge Mystic is a modern-day, slightly weaker, Oath of Druids for control decks that want to fight opposing aggro decks and simultaneously gain a quick clock vs. other control decks and combo decks. It is the dominant finisher in most control and aggro-control decks right now.

If you look at the history of Oath of Druids, you'll find that whenever it was played, it was usually played as the centerpiece of a dedicated control deck or a combo-control deck. Now, Stoneforge Mystic doesn't allow the player to power out a game-winning combo as Oath decks do now in Vintage with Griselbrand storm, but originally, Oath was just that - a control finisher that powered out a fatty that could invalidate aggro decks as well as end the game.

How is what Oath traditionally has done (in whatever format it is legal) much different from what Stoneforge Mystic is doing in Legacy? Obviously, the power level is lower on the Mystic, but the effect and the dominance of the strategy, and the subsequent effect on the viability of aggro decks, is similar.

-In Oath, you have a 1G enchantment that doesn't have an effect until the following turn.
-In Mystic, you have a 1W creature that doesn't have an effect until the next turn, unless you are hard-casting the tutored equipment that turn, which actually gives it an edge over Oath in some situations.

-In Oath, you are virtually guaranteed a powerful creature through the use of enablers like Forbidden Orchard, or simply playing against creatures.
-In Mystic, you are virtually guaranteed a less powerful, but still strong, creature (Batterskull), or you have the option of situational tutoring for equipment like Jitte & Swords.

-In Oath, the creature you power out will almost invariably be stronger than anything an opposing aggro deck can play against you and will end the game against aggro.
-in Mystic, the creature you power out (Batterskull), through the combination of vigilance and lifelink, will almost always stem the tide against opposing aggro decks much like Oath, even if it doesn't end the game on the spot immediately.

-In Oath, all you need to do to make the card work is to play 4 Forbidden Orchard (not a problem for a control deck), 4 Oath, and 1-2 creatures in your deck.
-In Mystic, all you need to do to make the card work is to play white mana (not a problem for a control deck), 4 Mystic, and Batterskull + 1-2 equipment.

-With both cards, you can then fill the deck with all kinds of control cards like counterspells, spot removal, draw spells, etc, because the two-mana anti-aggro spell will single-handedly invalidate aggro and act as a finisher, so you can load up on other things in your deck.

Of course, we know that Oath is banned in Legacy for very good reasons. If Oath is legal in a format, it usually leads to metagame dominance by only Control and Combo decks. The presence of Oath basically invalidates aggro decks. We have seen this historically in Vintage (at least until the printing of Grafdigger's Cage, which made Oath still strong but actually fight-able by aggro).

And right now in Legacy, what do we see but Top-8s littered mostly by the following types of decks: Decks playing Stoneforge Mystic in a control or aggro-control shell, and Combo decks?

Maybe it is time to discuss if banning Oath's weaker cousin would make the format better by promoting more diverse aggro decks.

[Zinch]

Aggro haven't existed in Legacy for years.

The only arguably aggro deck is goblins and is more a combo-aggro deck than pure aggro. The last pure aggro deck was Zoo and it wasn't Stoneforge Mystic who killed it...

[MGB]

Aggro haven't existed in Legacy for years.

The only arguably aggro deck is goblins and is more a combo-aggro deck than pure aggro. The last pure aggro deck was Zoo and it wasn't Stoneforge Mystic who killed it...

Let's not quibble over semantics.

When I talk about aggro, I'm talking about any deck that kills primarily with multiple creatures. Goblins is aggro, Merfolk is aggro, Death n Taxes is an aggro deck, RUG Delver is aggro, Maverick is aggro. Just because an aggro deck has disruptive elements doesn't mean it isn't an aggro deck at heart.

A deck playing 4 Stoneforge Mystic, a few TNN and the rest of the deck is counterspells and removal and Jace is a control deck similar to Oath decks of old.

[Barook]

Death n Taxes is an aggro deck
What the hell are you smoking?

D&T is a prison deck which happens to run white weenies. You disrupt the hell out of your opponent's manabase, tax them, then beat them to death. Saying that D&T is an aggro deck shows you have a clear lack of understanding.

And aggro decks were killed by

a) hyper-efficient creatures like Delver (because you can run tons of disruption to not auto-lose to combo and still apply a high amount of pressure)

b) Miracles

Trying to race combo is a lost cause when they can kill you on T2-T3.

[Poron]

is Jund aggro or control in your opinion?

[Lemnear]

The comparison is laughable. Oath punishes every strategy running creatures with free fatties. Drawing parallels between 4/4 vigilant lifelinkers for 1W+1W and 1G for Emrakul or Griselbrand is pointless.

Compare SFM + Batterskull with Exalted Angel and you have a point in regards to effect and mechanic

[MGB]

What the hell are you smoking?

D&T is a prison deck which happens to run white weenies. You disrupt the hell out of your opponent's manabase, tax them, then beat them to death. Saying that D&T is an aggro deck shows you have a clear lack of understanding.

And aggro decks were killed by

a) hyper-efficient creatures like Delver (because you can run tons of disruption to not auto-lose to combo and still apply a high amount of pressure)

b) Miracles

Trying to race combo is a lost cause when they can kill you on T2-T3.

Death n Taxes is an aggro-control deck that tries to kill with creatures backed up by disruption.

[Julian23]

is Jund aggro or control in your opinion?

It depends on who's the beatdown (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3692_Whos_The_Beatdown.html).

People should not confuse "Aggro" or Control" as decktypes with the relative concept of the same name in Who's the Beatdown.

That being said, whatever you want to describe as aggro probably fits. To me, the last true Aggro deck we had seen in Legacy was probably 4c Zoo around 2009.

[DragoFireheart]

Um, what? SFM is comparable to Oath of Druids?

No, please close this topic.

[snorlaxcom]

I don't go to reddit for a reason.

[rufus]

SFM seems more like Tinker to me, except that the list of game-breaking equipment is short, it's not as explosive, it's much more fragile, and it costs a bit more mana.

Even so, I think they'll eventually print some kind of equipment that forces an SFM ban.

[danyul]

The leaps of logic in the OP remind me of the essays I had to peer-review in freshman English class.

"You see, the scarlet letter is a physical manifestation of shame, and since it's red, it also evokes the imagery of a red velvet cake. And since red velvet cakes are sinfully delicious, this further reiterates the status of the scarlet letter as a shameful status of sin in the era of the Puritans. And that's why they don't serve red velvet cakes on Sundays."

[apple713]

@OP

Thanks For your nonsensical observation



Um, what? SFM is comparable to Oath of Druids?

No, please close this topic.

+1

[Tammit67]

I'll bite



If you look at the history of Oath of Druids, you'll find that whenever it was played, it was usually played as the centerpiece of a dedicated control deck or a combo-control deck. Now, Stoneforge Mystic doesn't allow the player to power out a game-winning combo as Oath decks do now in Vintage with Griselbrand storm, but originally, Oath was just that - a control finisher that powered out a fatty that could invalidate aggro decks as well as end the game.

Not quite. Oath gets to run all those control elements because the combo is so compact. See: Time vault/tinker bot in vintage. Just because the shells are similar does not mean the games play out at all the same.


-In Oath, you have a 1G enchantment that doesn't have an effect until the following turn.
-In Mystic, you have a 1W creature that doesn't have an effect until the next turn, unless you are hard-casting the tutored equipment that turn, which actually gives it an edge over Oath in some situations.
There are several cards that do not have immediate board impact but further your gameplan, why was SFM chosen?


-In Oath, the creature you power out will almost invariably be stronger than anything an opposing aggro deck can play against you and will end the game against aggro.
-in Mystic, the creature you power out (Batterskull), through the combination of vigilance and lifelink, will almost always stem the tide against opposing aggro decks much like Oath, even if it doesn't end the game on the spot immediately.
Against the decks you've listed as 'aggro', few of them haven't adapted to beat the equipment you mention (either through maindeck decisions or sideboarded options). In fact it took a printing of a 3/1 unblockable to get the ball rolling again


-In Oath, all you need to do to make the card work is to play 4 Forbidden Orchard (not a problem for a control deck), 4 Oath, and 1-2 creatures in your deck.
-In Mystic, all you need to do to make the card work is to play white mana (not a problem for a control deck), 4 Mystic, and Batterskull + 1-2 equipment.
You also need creatures. The most successful lists in legacy with SFM have run supplemental creatures since it is overly time consuming to have to wait until +5 mana to cast the batterskull after the SFM dies or having to get the germ token back into play after an abrupt decay. Granted you do get to run high impact utility creatures like deathrite or snapcaster.

Oath specifically does not want creatures, instead you run all of the more powerful, more immediately impactful cards in the format and don't have to wait around for things to become unsummoning sick


-With both cards, you can then fill the deck with all kinds of control cards like counterspells, spot removal, draw spells, etc, because the two-mana anti-aggro spell will single-handedly invalidate aggro and act as a finisher, so you can load up on other things in your deck.

"Single-handedly invalidate aggro". You have a recurring threat mostly immune to removal given enough time and resources. A 4/4 lifelinker vigilance is not impressive in other aspects though. So how do we get this card to outclass tarmogoyf and knight of the reliquary? We stall the game out and control the number of creatures that stay in play that can effectively combat it. The only reason stoneforge into batterskull is even a thing is because the supporting cast of spells and creatures can remove the obstacles to make it viable. It isn't invalidating shit, it is just what eventually ends the game.

The only difference between that card and baneslayer angel is that sometimes it comes down 2 turns earlier and cares far less about swords to plowshares. Then again, this is legacy and I think that level of power is fine.

[nedleeds]

You haven't played with or against Oath of Druids. Oath of Druids reads: "Your opponents can't play creatures unless they have shroud. If they do, you win the game."

It's a 2 toughness creature tutor. It's good. It's not as good as Brainstorm, it's not as good as Lion's Eye Diamond, it's not as good as about 10 cards in Legacy. When will you pussies who are bleeding over TNN just sac up and buy some Toxic Deluges. They are only going to get more expensive.

[Lord Seth]

It's worth pointing out that even if your opponent doesn't have creatures, you can still use Forbidden Orchard to make sure they do.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I'm still waiting for the argument to unbanned oath

[[SLAYER]chaos]

But if SFM were banned would TNN see even half the play it currently does?

[DragoFireheart]

It's worth pointing out that even if your opponent doesn't have creatures, you can still use Forbidden Orchard to make sure they do.

And if they refuse to play a creature, there's always Swan Song.

[Wilkin]

Is this just trolling or for real? Oath of Druids is a busted creature tutor. A 2 mana tutor for most likely Griselbrand or Emrakul.

Stoneforge is a tutor for equipment, granted Batterskull or Jitte. But requires 4 mana to have stoneforge and play the gear the next turn. a 4/4 lifelink vigilance is way easier to deal with than Griselbrand.


The 2nd point that really confuses me is the OP mentions several decks he considers to be aggro. Merfolk, Goblins, RUG Delver, Death and Taxes etc. I'd like to add that under his criteria for Aggro deck, you would have to include Elves for sure. Probably Maverick and UR Delver. That's quite a few "aggro" decks. And I would say these decks are diverse for sure. OP says that meta needs to have more diverse aggro....well under your criteria aren't there quite a few diverse aggro decks? And some of them see quite a bit of play right now.

[apple713]

Is this just trolling or for real? Oath of Druids is a busted creature tutor. A 2 mana tutor for most likely Griselbrand or Emrakul.


its more like a 2 mana 1 sided show and tell....cause it puts it into play!

[Lemnear]

its more like a 2 mana 1 sided show and tell....cause it puts it into play!

...and you don't even have to hold the creature in hand

[DragoFireheart]

...and you don't even have to hold the creature in hand

At least it dies to Abrupt Decay. Decay solves so many issues.

[catmint]

Enough bashing the OP. His point that SFM invalidates aggro decks is not far off imo. Besides of powerlevel the comparison to Oath is not that valid because you need to run additional bodies to make SFM work, but anyway that was not the point of the post I think. The point is that SFM + friends is the strongest enemy of aggro decks (does not matter if you mean "pure aggro" or some sort of aggro control - SFM hurts all of them).

If you compare the "legacy power 2 drop creature cycle" SFM is however the most problematic in the sense of his powerlevel is bound to rise much higher compared to the others.

Snapcaster has synergy with the best/most efficient spells. We know wizards won't print a ton of those which can make it into legacy, but they've showed willingness to print a lot of gravehard hate so I think snapcaster won't become a problem.

Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Young pyromancer cannot really improve a lot by new prints.

However the better the equipments get and the bodies to carry them the more broken SFM gets. The most important recent milestones are Batterskull, Lingering Souls and now TNN (Altough stuff like Geist, Thalia, Mirran Crusader,... also improved the power level of SFM). Now I hope and don't think wizards will print something better than jitte, sword of x and y or Batterskull, but with creature power creep and them not caring about legacy it can easily happen that more "broken in legacy" equipment carriers are released.

Now TNN might just push SFM over the top so the first reaction of the community is to ban this stupid TNN as it is just an "unmagic" magic card, but if you think of it, SFM might hurt the format diversity a lot more than TNN and might be even a long term problem without TNN.

I am not set on ban SFM (so far I just wanted to undo this stupid TNN), but it feels like banning SFM would turn the whole format upside down.

[Arsenal]

People:

The OP was written by the guy who believes that MUC is able to go at least 65% against BGx decks and that MUC only loses to tribal-aggro decks:


I've been playing the MUC vs. BG matchup for many weeks now and I can tell you from real playtesting results that Misdirection and Divert make the matchup at least 65% in MUC's favor.

The only decks that have a positive matchup vs. MUC right now are Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, and conveniently none are played heavily right now.

And that MUC has an 85% win ratio versus High Tide:


Also, out of approximately 40+ 2/3 sb matches played in the past 3 years against High Tide combo, I have lost no more than 5-6 of those matches with MUC.

[apple713]

At least it dies to Abrupt Decay. Decay solves so many issues.

yeah but with oath its decay in hand or lose...pray they don't have a misdirection

with SFM you can still decay it but its tutor, activate then attack for 4.....3 turns before anything really happens, and that attack for 4 in legacy is really really pitiful considering combo decks are winning in the time it takes you to complete a SFM cycle.

[miguelmatix]

Are we really discussing the banning of stoneforge?? Loool compare it to oath??
Ok... Lets ban all the good cards and play garbage wtf. This is not modern.

The card is fine. Some people always have to find someone to shot. Who will be next? Shaman? Goyf? Pradesh gipsys?

[catmint]

Which kind of kindergarten is that? You got to be careful what to say so you are not being exposed and laughed at by the community using old quotes?
Did they laugh at you in school Arsenal and now you can be the mean guy for once? :tongue:

I have no idea who MGB is but I chose to believe he designed the title and OP to get attention. So I suggest you focus more on the subject at hand which is if SFM is problematic to the format. Anyway his post and this topic shows "thinking outside the box" or "not mainstream" and is a much more valuable contribution than the last 2 pages of B/R non-sense bla bla.

[Arsenal]

Which kind of kindergarten is that? You got to be careful what to say so you are not being exposed and laughed at by the community using old quotes?
Did they laugh at you in school Arsenal and now you can be the mean guy for once? :tongue:

I have no idea who MGB is but I chose to believe he designed the title and OP to get attention. So I suggest you focus more on the subject at hand which is if SFM is problematic to the format. Anyway his post and this topic shows "thinking outside the box" or "not mainstream" and is a much more valuable contribution than the last 2 pages of B/R non-sense bla bla.

You ever heard of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"? If you have a long history of posting retarded nonsense, then all of sudden expect people to take you seriously, you're going to be facing a pretty tough crowd.

[DragoFireheart]

yeah but with oath its decay in hand or lose...pray they don't have a misdirection


Well it turns into a counter war. Decay makes it possible to kill the damn Oath post-resolution. And Misdirection is kinda shitty in Vintage IIRC so I wouldn't worry about it pre-board.

[TsumiBand]

Er um

Obvious troll gets obvious GIF?

http://www.gestioname.org/wp-includes/images/crystal/boxxy-trollin-gif-i0.gif

[Lord Seth]

yeah but with oath its decay in hand or lose...pray they don't have a misdirection
Or have a Show and Tell. Oath decks run a few of those as a backup plan.

[TsumiBand]

After reading the OP twice, I'm certain that the real motive here is to pivot to a completely different card. What are you actually going after, here? TNN? Brainstorm? S&T? Chance Encounter?

I say this because the reasoning is dealing so much in functional equivocancy and near-hyperbole that really there are a ton of sleepers in the wings. It's pretty rare for me to put the brakes on when it comes to speaking in metaphors, but this is just a little too thick and non-descript.

What's the real scoop here? Which card are you actually taking a run at?

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Joe Eigo]

I like the comparison. They're second turn drops and hurt regular aggro strategies. Also Batterskull is not that easy to remove, as you all say, since you need at least a disenchant (not abrupt decay...). Any other form of creature removal does NOT help to remove it PERMANENTLY, as you all should know...

Also you have a big ADVANTAGE over Oath strategies with Stoneforge: You are able to run other creatures!!

It's possibly not ban worthy yet, but this may change, as people already said, when we get another equipment like "Giant Batterskull" which generates a 0/0 Token and gives +8/+8 lifelink effect, or similar....

[Quasim0ff]

The comparison is laughable. Oath punishes every strategy running creatures with free fatties. Drawing parallels between 4/4 vigilant lifelinkers for 1W+1W and 1G for Emrakul or Griselbrand is pointless.

Compare SFM + Batterskull with Exalted Angel and you have a point in regards to effect and mechanic

Do you remember MaherOath? Oath is 100x as strong as it was some years ago, due to the powerlevel creep of creatures.

I think the comparison doesn't hold true in modern environment, but comparing the old Oath lists with modern SFM doesn't seem too far fetched.


Well it turns into a counter war. Decay makes it possible to kill the damn Oath post-resolution. And Misdirection is kinda shitty in Vintage IIRC so I wouldn't worry about it pre-board.
Most vintage oath control lists actually run misdirection.
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15595#218276
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15333#214930
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15365#215342

[Adryan]

I think Dark Confidant is a lot more powerful on it's own than Stoneforge Mystic. Mystic sees only more play because of synergy with True Name Nemesis.

I never get it why Stoneforge Mystic is banned and Dark Confidant is not in Modern. Yes you are up a card if the Mystic gets removed, but an unanswered Dark Confidant is a lot more brutal than an unanswered Mystic. Except for Burn, but that doesn't really count.

Edit: There won't be anything more powerful than a Batterskull. Wotc does care about Legacy. Anyone read the post on the mothership wheere they showed the design of some cards. The initial concept of one card was dismissed because it was feared that it would be too good in Maverick in Legacy ;)

[Lemnear]

Do you remember MaherOath? Oath is 100x as strong as it was some years ago, due to the powerlevel creep of creatures.

I think the comparison doesn't hold true in modern environment, but comparing the old Oath lists with modern SFM doesn't seem too far fetched.


Most vintage oath control lists actually run misdirection.
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15595#218276
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15333#214930
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15365#215342

Remember? I played the deck and during that time Spirit of the Night was a thing

[menace13]

. The initial concept of one card was dismissed because it was feared that it would be too good in Maverick in Legacy ;)

That is the opposite direction of where R&D needs to be steering towards. Decks like maverick should get a push instead they print TNNs.


SFM while certainly a powerful card had not been as prevalent before it recieved the best beneficiary of all time to its tutor targets.

You can rid yourselves of SFM and that would cut down on Batterskulls, but don't think that magically gets rid of TNN decks. They'd probably just turn to Bob and run 3 equipments anyway.

[Barook]

You can rid yourselves of SFM and that would cut down on Batterskulls, but don't think that magically gets rid of TNN decks. They'd probably just turn to Bob and run 3 equipments anyway.
Probably. Cantrips are damn good at finding stuff. Just think about how people argue that Patriot Delver can't be classified as TNN deck because it "only" runs two copies, although they're highly effcient digging for it.

It would also hurt the more interesting decks like D&T.

Why are people trying to paint SFM as the Boogieman when it was clearly fine before TNN?

[Quasim0ff]

Remember? I played the deck and during that time Spirit of the Night was a thing
Morphling was a thing. Do you realize how huge the difference is between the creatures of today comparing to the old days?

I remember when I played 15-16 years ago - Creatures wasn't "good", per se. The were used to kill only, and some did it better. Morphling was on top of EVERYTHING, worth about what? 120$. No creatures is like that that today, besides, goyf... And goyf is arguably waaaay weaker than Morphling was in his haymaker days.

Do you remember the old standard oath lists? People ran all kind of junk, just because they were the best creatures at that time.

'SFM is a weaker oath, in the ability it has over some archetypes. Not on powerlevel alone.

[DragoFireheart]

Most vintage oath control lists actually run misdirection.
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15595#218276
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15333#214930
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15365#215342

Figures. :laugh:

[catmint]

Why are people trying to paint SFM as the Boogieman when it was clearly fine before TNN?

I agree and still hate TNN and want it gone. Before TNN the format was very versatile and the DTB list already so long and in flux that you could think about a new method of evaluating DTB. My point about SFM was that is the only "power 2 drop" creature that will get more bonkers the better the equipments/carriers are. I don't see why wizards would not print something that is good in standard but broken in legacy like some sort of efficient hexproof beater/evaser with a drawback that does not matter in legacy. We might find us again in the same situation someday...

Again not saying SFM should go...

[Adryan]

I actually like TNN. It was kind of a Standard rotation. People have to adapt.

I wouldn't be shocked if Wotc prints something like a super Voice of Resurgence in the next Commander, that sucks in blue decks but is super strong against blue decks. Or another hatebear against Combodecks, like a thalia/ teeg combination or maybe they will print 5 new staples so that all Commander decks sell like cakes, which Rosedumbwater already stated in an article (they want to avoid that, one pack has a higher demand, maybe this can also mean that every Commander deck will suck for Eternal ^^, but i doubt it. They want to make money, the more the better and I'm sure they made something like 1 million $ extra because of TNN).

P.S. I completely forget what the Maverick card was capable of doing during design, and why it was canceled. But it was really sick. More sick than TNN.

[TsumiBand]

I might be glossing over a lot of details in saying this but I'm fairly sure that even though SFM is ubiquitous, it's empowered a lot more decks than it's actually shut out, which in my mind is a stronger pointer to 'format staple' than 'ban candidate'.

If Stoneforge Mystic is, for the purposes of this hyperbolic discussion, Oath of Druids? Then dragging True-Name Nemesis into the discussion is tantamount to Vengevine pre-empting the banning of Survival of the Fittest. That's fucking lousy. The power level isn't even close here; if it were, we'd happily run jank like Steelshaper's Gift without batting an eyelash. I know SFM has that 1W ability, but honestly? Sticking SFM long enough to pay the 1W for her ability is similar to getting a planeswalker's ultimate; if you got there, that's probably your opponent's mistake, not your good amazing card-game skills.

Especially in this bold world of Abrupt Decay and (apparently?) -1/-1 tech as an answer to TNN/SotL/Elves, there's enough of a shift in technology that those Mother of Runes are going to start picking up some incidental hate in a hurry, so really you aren't as secure leading with that turn 1 Mom as you used to be. If MoR/SFM isn't meeting that EOT targeted/mass/sacrificial removal spell, someone's derping the ball.

As for comparing to Oath/Spirit of the Night and plays from way back in the day -- why are we drawing comparison between "Vintage in the late 90s" and "Legacy, yesterday"? Legacy really can't compare itself to Vintage in a meaningful way. The difference between banning and restricting on deckbuilding choices and subsequent gameplay should be measured in orders of magnitude. Very few format-defining cards hold up to the same scrutiny in both formats.

[Asthereal]

Remember? I played the deck and during that time Spirit of the Night was a thing
We cut Spirit of the Night for Masticore at some point. Good days! :smile:

[Lemnear]

We cut Spirit of the Night for Masticore at some point. Good days! :smile:

Yes. Times in which you had to choose between tool-creatures and fast beatdown, unlike today :(

[Quasim0ff]

Yes. Times in which you had to choose between tool-creatures and fast beatdown, unlike today :(

I really like these times better than today.

RIP broken combo cards, RIP broken non-creature cards (post Past in Flames/Jace).

[Poron]

RiP breaks 50% of format creatures:

Deathrite Shaman
Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose

it just leaves out TNN Bob DnT Package and Delver

[DragoFireheart]

RiP breaks 50% of format creatures:

Deathrite Shaman
Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose

it just leaves out TNN Bob DnT Package and Delver

I think you forget a FSM and a Daemon...

[Poron]

the deamon is not a "creature" is the finishing card of a combo same with Emrakul

and SFM is inside the "DnT package"

[DragoFireheart]

the deamon is not a "creature" is the finishing card of a combo same with Emrakul

and SFM is inside the "DnT package"

I said FSM, not SFM.

Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[MoxBropal]

I appreciate the OP's ambition. A ballsy comparison for sure, but I think its worth talking about. In legacy, if you run white, its hard to argue against running SFM and her crazy toys. The only exception that comes to mind is Miracles. Is there another card in Legacy you absolutely have to run simply because you're in a particular color?

The thesis seemed to hint at the fact that innovative aggro strategies are dying if not dead already. Is it solely SFM's fault? Or just a manifestation of WoTC's quest to turn everything into midrange?

[Dzra]

Is it solely SFM's fault?

No. Simply put, aggro is dead because of efficiency. Creatures like Tarmogoyf and Delver (and yes, SFM also) are so efficient that you don't need to run many of them to put up a reasonable clock. Thanks to this, decks are allowed to run a plethora of disruption instead of additional threats... hence we arrive at the hybrid strategies of midranged and tempo. This is actually quite fortunate for Legacy since pure aggro strategies will almost certainly just lose to combo.

[DragoFireheart]

This is actually quite fortunate for Legacy since pure aggro strategies will almost certainly just lose to combo.

And WotC will continue to print hatebears.

[FieryBalrog]

I actually like TNN. It was kind of a Standard rotation. People have to adapt.

I wouldn't be shocked if Wotc prints something like a super Voice of Resurgence in the next Commander, that sucks in blue decks but is super strong against blue decks.

so basically when hell freezes over

[Poron]

well the Labyrinth guy was a good shock against Miracles (and there wasn't any needom really, it's not even a tier 1 deck anymore)

Miracle engine needs you to save your Brainstorm for when you need a miracle effect, now you will have to "waste" them as soon as possible against white creature based decks (just any? that guy fits everywhere a SFM fits..)

I think we will stop seeing Miracle in top 8s for sometime. Ops. I meant top16s

[DragoFireheart]

well the Labyrinth guy was a good shock against Miracles (and there wasn't any needom really, it's not even a tier 1 deck anymore)

Miracle engine needs you to save your Brainstorm for when you need a miracle effect, now you will have to "waste" them as soon as possible against white creature based decks (just any? that guy fits everywhere a SFM fits..)

I think we will stop seeing Miracle in top 8s for sometime. Ops. I meant top16s

What?

Gaddock Teeg and Thaila are far more scary IMO. I could be wrong but that is how I see it.

[Shawon]

well the Labyrinth guy was a good shock against Miracles (and there wasn't any needom really, it's not even a tier 1 deck anymore)

Miracle engine needs you to save your Brainstorm for when you need a miracle effect, now you will have to "waste" them as soon as possible against white creature based decks (just any? that guy fits everywhere a SFM fits..)

I think we will stop seeing Miracle in top 8s for sometime. Ops. I meant top16s

Isn't SOL kinda just relegated to Death & Taxes, and doesn't that deck already have a good matchup against Miracles?

I don't see how this guy is going to dramatically change the Maverick matchup either, since that deck still loses to Miracles despite running Thalia and Gaddock Teeg.

A lot of Miracles deck splash red, so it wouldn't be farfetched for them to run Gut Shot or Pyroclasm if SOL becomes a major concern.

[Poron]

What?

Gaddock Teeg and Thaila are far more scary IMO. I could be wrong but that is how I see it.

it's a matter of numbers. now they have a new 3 power tool very synergic with their strategy.. Thalia and Teeg's decks are back and stronger. Very bad matchups for both Miracle and Show and Tell.

[Poron]

Isn't SOL kinda just relegated to Death & Taxes, and doesn't that deck already have a good matchup against Miracles?

I don't see how this guy is going to dramatically change the Maverick matchup either, since that deck still loses to Miracles despite running Thalia and Gaddock Teeg.

A lot of Miracles deck splash red, so it wouldn't be farfetched for them to run Gut Shot or Pyroclasm if SOL becomes a major concern.

Maverick and DnT pack 4 Mother of Runes... damage based solutions aren't effective.

[DragoFireheart]

Maverick and DnT pack 4 Mother of Runes... damage based solutions aren't effective.

But Dread of Night is. Kills:


Mother of Runes
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Aven Mindcensor
Flickerwisp
Mangara of Corondor
Spirit of the Labyrinth

[Poron]

Massacre is way better and kills Deathrite Shamans and Stoneforges too. Sure, they have to pack white.. but apart from Jund, Merfolk and Goblin (which Massacre was uneffective against anyway) which creature based deck doesn't run white?

mmm black also open to Abrupt Decay

[DragoFireheart]

Massacre is way better and kills Deathrite Shamans and Stoneforges too. Sure, they have to pack white.. but apart from Jund, Merfolk and Goblin (which Massacre was uneffective against with anyway) which creature based deck doesn't run white?

mmm black also open to Abrupt Decay

You can run both! Imagine a UWb Miracle deck packing Massacre and Dread of Night.

[Poron]

nothing killed by Massacre + Dread of Night (just white creatures, which are tipically small in thoughtness) isn't killed too by Massacre alone.

it sounds like a waste of slots and way too much hate against 1-2 matchups

[DragoFireheart]

nothing killed by Massacre + Dread of Night (just white creatures, which are tipically small in thoughtness) isn't killed too by Massacre alone.

it sounds like a waste of slots and way too much hate against 1-2 matchups

Dread of Night proactively kills their creatures and prevents them from ever entering. Massacre does not do this.

If you're running E.Tutor in Miracles you can just fetch the Dread. Multiple Dreads also stack while Massacre is a one-time effect. Finally, it plays nice with Humility. Sticking a Humility + Dread against DnT is practically game.

[Poron]

if you're playing Miracles, then Sulfur Elemental is your friend neither Massacre or Dread of Night

Anyway, imho, Massacre > DoN all times.

Also because if you play black you're packing Abrupt Decay too and that's already as much permanent control as you can need.

[DragoFireheart]

if you're playing Miracles, then Sulfur Elemental is your friend neither Massacre or Dread of Night

Anyway, imho, Massacre > DoN all times.

Also because if you play black you're packing Abrupt Decay too and that's already as much permanent control as you can need.

Dread is much cheaper than Sulfur. Sulfur is also awkward since it makes their surviving creatures hit you harder. Finally, it dies to swords and your own mass removal. Not good.

Massacre and DoN aren't really comparable anyways. Massacre clears the field, but if they control their drops it won't get you any card advantage. DoN locks out half of their creatures.

And Abrupt Decay only answers one of their creatures. I'd rather save it for equipment: decay the equipment, drop a DoN. And just because you are playing black does not mean you have Decay.

[Poron]

or AD their Equipment and Massacre both TNN and Stoneforge too.

Massacre is stronger against many many many more decks. DoN just against DnT.

Against DnT, yes, DoN is better but against: UWR, DelverBant, Bant, UWStoneblade, Deathblade of any kind.... Massacre is just great

[DragoFireheart]

or AD their Equipment and Massacre both TNN and Stoneforge too.

Massacre is stronger against many many many more decks. DoN just against DnT.

Against DnT, yes, DoN is better but against: UWR, DelverBant, Bant, UWStoneblade, Deathblade of any kind.... Massacre is just great

For Miracles you can easily fit 1-2 DoN if running the E.Tutor package. There's no reason not to unless you want to splash a different color.

Massacre seems underwhelming against Blade deck. They are likely only going to drop a single creature against you and equip it to swing. Between Terminus/Verdict, StP, and Snappy, you already have more than enough removal to deal with creatures. The issue in these decks is the equipment, not the creatures. Abrupt Decay will serve you very well in these matchups.

[ThediscoPower]

I don't go to reddit for a reason.

But sometimes, reddit comes to you.

[Poron]

they play, at least, Delver and Stoneforge or Stoneforge and TNN or Delver and TNN.

in any case that's 2 for 1 and free mana. it works the same as a Terminus but it doesn't open to Stifle and SoL problems.

Massacre is better, imho.. anyway in an Esper build, there's nothing wrong to play it alongside Swords to Plowshares

In an Esper Miracle build I would play 1 Massacre main and 2 SB to switch them with Terminus. Against Stoneblade they do exactly the same but Massacre is more mana efficient and solid then Terminus. It just loses in speed (Sorcery)

But I would rather keep Miracle UWr and play Sulfur Elemental + Wear/Tear for Equipments.

[DragoFireheart]

they play, at least, Delver and Stoneforge or Stoneforge and TNN or Delver and TNN.

in any case that's 2 for 1 and free mana. it works the same as a Terminus but it doesn't open to Stifle and SoL problems.

Massacre is better, imho.. anyway in an Esper build, there's nothing wrong to play it alongside Swords to Plowshares

In an Esper Miracle build I would play 1 Massacre main and 2 SB to switch them with Terminus. Against Stoneblade they do exactly the same but Massacre is more mana efficient and solid then Terminus. It just loses in speed (Sorcery)

But I would rather keep Miracle UWr and play Sulfur Elemental + Wear/Tear for Equipments.

And I'd rather play UW Miracles. But that is a different discussion.

[Poron]

UW Miracle is as good as dead.

It can't play effective EE, it can't reach Zealous Persecution nor Massacre. its only cards to deal with TNN is Terminus. UW Miracle can't go far (imho)

[DragoFireheart]

UW Miracle is as good as dead.

It can't play effective EE, it can't reach Zealous Persecution nor Massacre. its only cards to deal with TNN is Terminus. UW Miracle can't go far (imho)


?

http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=3000&dlow=1&mlow=1&ylow=2013&dhigh=31&mhigh=12&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=Terminus&nomain=Volcanic+Island&side=&noside=&strict=on

[Wilkin]

I appreciate the OP's ambition. A ballsy comparison for sure, but I think its worth talking about. In legacy, if you run white, its hard to argue against running SFM and her crazy toys. The only exception that comes to mind is Miracles. Is there another card in Legacy you absolutely have to run simply because you're in a particular color?

The thesis seemed to hint at the fact that innovative aggro strategies are dying if not dead already. Is it solely SFM's fault? Or just a manifestation of WoTC's quest to turn everything into midrange?

If you green and/or black, there's a good chance you are playing Deathrite Shaman. If playing combo than obviously that Elf won't be there (unless you are Elves of course) but anything midrange and he's probably in there.
If you are playing blue, there's a good chance Brainstorm is in there somewhere.

Yeah WOTC seems to want everything to be mid-range matches. Wish they would unban Nacatl in Modern. LOL, their goal was to make diverse aggro decks.

[catmint]

UW Miracle is as good as dead.

It can't play effective EE, it can't reach Zealous Persecution nor Massacre. its only cards to deal with TNN is Terminus. UW Miracle can't go far (imho)

True UW Miracles has only Terminus, Red-Blasts, Supreme Verdict, Counterspell, Counterbalance, Humility, Moat,.. versus Nemesis. Maybe if these cards would not be situational sideboard cards but more widely applicable like zealous persecution, golgari charm and massacre, Miracles would have some chance. But as it stands Miracles will basically disappear.

[Mr. Froggy]

Death n Taxes is an aggro-control deck that tries to kill with creatures backed up by disruption.

D&T is not aggro-control, its a control deck based on creatures.

[MGB]

Until they print an equipment with the text "You win the game if this card is on the battlefield", Stoneforge Mystic is not even close to Oath of Druids.

Only recently has Oath had the ability to drop win-the-game-on-the-spot creatures like Emrakul (with Dragon Breath) and Griselbrand (fueling storm combo with his draw-7 effect).

For a long time, Oath decks killed simply by putting into play a fatty that was simply hard to deal with, and then backed up that fatty with copious counterspells and spot removals and other control tools - which is exactly what Stoneforge Mystic does now.

4 Stoneforge Mystic, 1-2 tutor targets including a hard-to-remove, hard-to-race fatty
4 Oath of Druids, 1-2 creature oath targets including (likely) a hard-to-remove, hard-to-race fatty

When I compare Mystic to Oath I am referring to pre-Emrakul, pre-Griselbrand Oath, when Oath was merely a powerful anti-aggro card and damage-based win condition for control decks. Oath is ridiculous right now in combo but for most of its life it was more like Stoneforge Mystic than a combo engine - a control finisher that also acted as a trump against opposing aggro decks.

[Tammit67]

When I compare Mystic to Oath I am referring to pre-Emrakul, pre-Griselbrand Oath, when Oath was merely a powerful anti-aggro card and damage-based win condition for control decks. Oath is ridiculous right now in combo but for most of its life it was more like Stoneforge Mystic than a combo engine - a control finisher that also acted as a trump against opposing aggro decks.

Oath is a control card similar to how show and tell is a control card?

[kingtk3]

Only recently has Oath had the ability to drop win-the-game-on-the-spot creatures like Emrakul (with Dragon Breath) and Griselbrand (fueling storm combo with his draw-7 effect).

For a long time, Oath decks killed simply by putting into play a fatty that was simply hard to deal with, and then backed up that fatty with copious counterspells and spot removals and other control tools - which is exactly what Stoneforge Mystic does now.

4 Stoneforge Mystic, 1-2 tutor targets including a hard-to-remove, hard-to-race fatty
4 Oath of Druids, 1-2 creature oath targets including (likely) a hard-to-remove, hard-to-race fatty

When I compare Mystic to Oath I am referring to pre-Emrakul, pre-Griselbrand Oath, when Oath was merely a powerful anti-aggro card and damage-based win condition for control decks. Oath is ridiculous right now in combo but for most of its life it was more like Stoneforge Mystic than a combo engine - a control finisher that also acted as a trump against opposing aggro decks.

I don't get the sense of this discussion: if you are referring to older version of Oath you should also contextualize it in the period in which it were played.
Oath was great even before Griselbrand and Emrakul because in the age when it was playing Akroma and Spirit of the night other decks lacked a number of cards that are played nowday, for example: lodestone, snapcaster, kotr, mental misstep, confidant, goyf, kuldotha... you name it.

Hell, for a period the deck had a one turn clock playing magister sphinx and progenitus... It's not that Oath is broken only because emmy and grissy

[MGB]

Oath is a control card similar to how show and tell is a control card?

To run a Show and Tell deck requires you to play, additionally, either:

a.) 4 Emrakul and 4 Griselbrand, and 4 Sneak Attack
or
b.) 4 Omniscience, 3-4 Dream Halls, 4 Enter the Infinite, 2-4 Cunning Wish, and 1 Emrakul

So in other words, Show and Tell is not a control card. It is a *combo* card that requires many other combo pieces stuffed into the deck to function. Doing so reduces the ability of the deck to function in a controlling manner. For each slot occupied by a combo piece, one less slot is devoted to a control card that, say, an Oath deck or a Stoneforge Mystic deck could be playing.

And when opponents disrupt individual combo elements (through discard, counterspells, or specific trump cards like Karakas/Oblivion Ring), the Show and Tell deck is rendered much less effective than the Oath/Stoneforge Mystic deck because other combo elements become dead weight in the hand whereas if an opponent removes Oath or removes Stoneforge Mystic, there is no card disadvantage for the Oath/Stoneforge player because each of these finishers functions on its own without need for more than 1-2 other cards residing in the deck. The disrupted Show player will draw a Griselbrand when his Show and Tell is countered and suffer card disadvantage if he doesn't draw another Sneak Attack or Show and Tell. The disrupted Oath/Stoneforge player will just draw into more individually effective control elements or other complementary finishers like a Jace.

Show and Tell strategies are combo-control or pure combo. Stoneforge Mystic strategies are aggro-control or pure control.

[FTW]

What the hell are you smoking?
Goblins is a prison deck which happens to run red weenies. You disrupt the hell out of your opponent's manabase, tax them, then beat them to death. Saying that Goblins is an aggro deck shows you have a clear lack of understanding.


fixed



And aggro decks were killed by

a) hyper-efficient creatures

This is everything wrong with WotC's current card design.

[DragoFireheart]

Oath is a control card similar to how show and tell is a control card?

No no no Show and Tell is actually a creature card that is immune to Remove Soul.

[Tammit67]

And when opponents disrupt individual combo elements (through discard, counterspells, or specific trump cards like Karakas/Oblivion Ring), the Show and Tell deck is rendered much less effective than the Oath/Stoneforge Mystic deck because other combo elements become dead weight in the hand whereas if an opponent removes Oath or removes Stoneforge Mystic, there is no card disadvantage for the Oath/Stoneforge player because each of these finishers functions on its own without need for more than 1-2 other cards residing in the deck. The disrupted Show player will draw a Griselbrand when his Show and Tell is countered and suffer card disadvantage if he doesn't draw another Sneak Attack or Show and Tell. The disrupted Oath/Stoneforge player will just draw into more individually effective control elements or other complementary finishers like a Jace.

Of course there is card disadvantage for SFM and Oath if you disrupt it. If I decay your oath, the orchard is a liability. If I don't have a creature, oath is a dead card. If I discard the equipment you tutored for, SFM is a waste in many situations. All you've shown is that oath/stoneforge is more resilient in the face of disruption than show and tell in that they aren't all in on that interaction at that time.

I fail to see your point: Are combo decks considered combo since they need to devote so many more cards towards their goal and not protection? Or are combo decks the decks that create a board state in which the game ends immediately when a certain set of conditions are met?


You seem to be arguing the former, and I the latter. SFM does not yet create these game states I describe.

[MGB]

Of course there is card disadvantage for SFM and Oath if you disrupt it. If I decay your oath, the orchard is a liability. If I don't have a creature, oath is a dead card. If I discard the equipment you tutored for, SFM is a waste in many situations. All you've shown is that oath/stoneforge is more resilient in the face of disruption than show and tell in that they aren't all in on that interaction at that time.


As a rainbow land, Orchard is basically never a liability. The 1/1 tokens it provides the opponent pale in comparison to the enabling of Oath and the generation of multicolored mana. There is no significant card disadvantage for the Oath deck if Orchard is in play and Oath is not. Oath does need Orchard vs creature less decks, but against aggro it is self contained, and my point initially looked at Oath as a finisher for control vs aggro.

If you discard the equipment tutored by SFM, that is no different from using discard on the SFM in hand from the start.
SFM is a self-contained strategy unlike any combo.



I fail to see your point: Are combo decks considered combo since they need to devote so many more cards towards their goal and not protection? Or are combo decks the decks that create a board state in which the game ends immediately when a certain set of conditions are met?


You seem to be arguing the former, and I the latter. SFM does not yet create these game states I describe.

combination[ kom-buh-ney-shuhn ]
Noun

1. the act of combining or the state of being combined.
2. a number of things combined: a combination of ideas.
3. something formed by combining: A chord is a combination of notes.

The definition of a combo in magic is: a combination of cards that form a powerful effect that is greater than the sum of both individual parts. That could mean - putting a 15/15 creature into play, or creating lethal storm count with a chain of spells, or merely giving the caster an unlimited supply of life and 1/1 thopter tokens.

Stoneforge Mystic is never a combo piece. Oath is a combo piece only vs. creature less decks.
By their nature both SFM and Oath decks function as control decks first and foremost. SFM and Oath are the finishers In these decks.

[Poron]

True UW Miracles has only Terminus, Red-Blasts, Supreme Verdict, Counterspell, Counterbalance, Humility, Moat,.. versus Nemesis. Maybe if these cards would not be situational sideboard cards but more widely applicable like zealous persecution, golgari charm and massacre, Miracles would have some chance. But as it stands Miracles will basically disappear.

with the born of Spirit of the Labyrinth, Maverick decks will be much more present in future meta and Gaddok Teeg + Mother of Runes (well let alone SoL itself) is already a WC against Miracle.
Overall UW lists don't pack Red-blasts and Moat dies to a single Qasali Pridemage (tutorable with 4x GSZ).

of all the cards you said, just Humility stands a chance. a 4cc (Spell Pierce-able) permanent.

As it stands, imo, yes, Miracles will basically disappear from top 16s lists.

[catmint]

You nailed it again, Maverick is a natural predator of Miracle decks and with the addition of SOL which basically wins by itself because Miracles has no way of library manipulation outside of cantrips, Maverick will be 90:10 favourite. Maverick has also a lot more ways to deal with TNN/equip than Jund and a more solid disruption plan than death and taxes so I agree Maverick will again become the best non-blue deck.

You are also right about miracles not being able to play red. The manabase is very unstable and greedy so playing red-blasts or sulfur elemental won't be possible.

Well...as it stands Miracles does not have to the tools to fight TNN decks; not to speak of the rise of Maverick so bye bye miracles - it was fun as long as we had you around, but your time has come.

[Arsenal]

For January, Miracles sits at 17/37. Maverick at 23/37. I'd say both decks are largely irrelevant to the current TNN meta.

But to the issue, Miracles crushes Maverick. The new hatebear won't change that. They can still flip SDT on the opponent's turn to Terminus/Entreat like have always done. In fact, Miracles' Clique just became stronger against Maverick with the new hatebear in play.

[Adryan]

You nailed it again, Maverick is a natural predator of Miracle decks and with the addition of SOL which basically wins by itself because Miracles has no way of library manipulation outside of cantrips, Maverick will be 90:10 favourite. Maverick has also a lot more ways to deal with TNN/equip than Jund and a more solid disruption plan than death and taxes so I agree Maverick will again become the best non-blue deck.

You are also right about miracles not being able to play red. The manabase is very unstable and greedy so playing red-blasts or sulfur elemental won't be possible.

Well...as it stands Miracles does not have to the tools to fight TNN decks; not to speak of the rise of Maverick so bye bye miracles - it was fun as long as we had you around, but your time has come.

Don't use sarcasm all the time. Many people struggle to identify sarcasm, especially dumb people ^^ ;)
--

Yeah the spirit is so good that the Pro's wouldn't play it in Death and Taxes. Eneveldson also stated that he wouldn't play Death and Taxes at the GP.. I cannot imagine a world where a normal Maverick list that doesn't run playsets of Planeswalkers, Armageddon, 4 Teeg, 4 Sylvan Safekeeper etc. has a positive matchup against Miracle.
I don't even board out FoW, because Maverick is like a combo deck. so many things you don't care about and just a few cards you may care... The spirit is not scary for Miracles because it doesn't have flash, and you still can draw with Top and use Top.

As it stands Miracles is one of the best decks format, if not the best. In theory. Lack of good placings are only a result that there are zero people that play the extremely well and that Miracle has the highest concentration of people that are bad. Many miracle pilots also choose to dilute their deck for the opponent with stuff like RIP etc. or chose to play inferior lists but it still remains a very good deck.

Edit: People have to stop comparing old Oath of Druids list to current ones. To my knowledge Griselbrand and friends didn't exist back then, but who knows i only play this game for 2 years.

[catmint]

For January, Miracles sits at 17/37. Maverick at 23/37. I'd say both decks are largely irrelevant to the current TNN meta.


The TCdecks "current month tierdecks" report made you your bitch hu? Probably your default page when you open a browser. :laugh:

In December Miracles was DTB number 2 so last month you would probably talk about the dominance of miracles - now Miracles is largely irrelevant. Both is not true... What is true is that there are hypes and flukes and real trends can only be seen over a period of a couple of months.

Edit: I meant that to be funny and not mean - I do respect your work of collecting data and showing meta trends in other threads.

[DragoFireheart]

You nailed it again, Maverick is a natural predator of Miracle decks and with the addition of SOL which basically wins by itself because Miracles has no way of library manipulation outside of cantrips, Maverick will be 90:10 favourite. Maverick has also a lot more ways to deal with TNN/equip than Jund and a more solid disruption plan than death and taxes so I agree Maverick will again become the best non-blue deck.

You are also right about miracles not being able to play red. The manabase is very unstable and greedy so playing red-blasts or sulfur elemental won't be possible.

Well...as it stands Miracles does not have to the tools to fight TNN decks; not to speak of the rise of Maverick so bye bye miracles - it was fun as long as we had you around, but your time has come.

You're kidding, right? Teeg is far more dangerous than Sol and Miracles has done just fine. Adding another hate bear isn't going to change that.

Miracles will die when Merfolk finds a way to git gud.

[Arsenal]

The TCdecks "current month tierdecks" report made you your bitch hu? Probably your default page when you open a browser. :laugh:

In December Miracles was DTB number 2 so last month you would probably talk about the dominance of miracles - now Miracles is largely irrelevant. Both is not true... What is true is that there are hypes and flukes and real trends can only be seen over a period of a couple of months.

Edit: I meant that to be funny and not mean - I do respect your work of collecting data and showing meta trends in other threads.

Miracles has seen a slight downward trend since November 1st, 2013 compared to the preceeding 10 months.

From Jan-Oct 2013, Miracles averaged a 6th place finish with it's lowest showing at 13th. Since November 1st, 2013, Miracles has averaged a 9th place finish with it's lowest showing at 17th. This is a minimal downward trend, but all this talk of "Miracles is hard to play, that's why nobody plays it" doesn't make sense if it was seeing enough play to be the 6th best deck in all of Legacy pre-TNN. Miracles is one of the few decks in Legacy that doesn't have to tax it's maindeck/sideboard to crush TNN decks and it still maintains a fair-good game versus all forms of combo. If anything, I would've thought Miracles would be seeing an upward trend, even a minimal one, but instead we are seeing the opposite.

I theorize that it's because Blade Control decks (currently #4) that run the SFM+TNN and Jace+Verdict+Counterspell packages play the control role well enough against the same fair decks Miracles crushes, but is able to just braindead win with SFM-TNN while Miracles has to setup these intricate turns of sculpting, Topping, sculpting, Topping -> Entreat ftw.

[DragoFireheart]

I theorize that it's because Blade Control decks (currently #4) that run the SFM+TNN and Jace+Verdict+Counterspell packages play the control role well enough against the same fair decks Miracles crushes, but is able to just braindead win with SFM-TNN while Miracles has to setup these intricate turns of sculpting, Topping, sculpting, Topping -> Entreat ftw.

I dunno about you, but I find turning my True-Name Nemesis sideways extraordinarily difficult. The deck is quite challenging to play!

[Poron]

You nailed it again, Maverick is a natural predator of Miracle decks and with the addition of SOL which basically wins by itself because Miracles has no way of library manipulation outside of cantrips, Maverick will be 90:10 favourite. Maverick has also a lot more ways to deal with TNN/equip than Jund and a more solid disruption plan than death and taxes so I agree Maverick will again become the best non-blue deck.

You are also right about miracles not being able to play red. The manabase is very unstable and greedy so playing red-blasts or sulfur elemental won't be possible.

Well...as it stands Miracles does not have to the tools to fight TNN decks; not to speak of the rise of Maverick so bye bye miracles - it was fun as long as we had you around, but your time has come.

yes, Miracle has no way of library manipulation outside Ponder (?), Brainstorm and Jace and Top. All of this cards are shut down by SOL and Top's secondary is halved in power at least. It also shuts down flash Snapmage into Brainstorm which was 80% of the reason to run it (the other 20% is StPs)

pure Maverick has not a lot of ways to deal with TNN. But it can play Null Rod to fuck every Equipment around but the CIP of Batterskull.

Without Equipments TNN is a 3 power creature or, more frightening, a wall which is, anyway, jumped over with a single MoR.

Overall, please, read anything again since it started: we were talking about pure UW Miracle. Not UWr or UWb Miracles. UWb Miracles which also has Massacre, has definitly an edge in modern meta. Rest in Peace + Massacre = Wrath of God

[Adryan]

Poron is trolling. For his sanity i hope he's trolling. Teeg is a lot more powerful than the Spirit but unless each of them is now played as a playset, i will happily ever after play 12 rounds against Maverick at the GP. And a Miracle must happen that i don't make the cut to Top 8.

Edit: That Massacre is a good idea. Just in time for the Legacy Daily. Miracle lacks good sweepers and therefore i will cut red for black. Thoughtseize is also especially strong in Miracle.

[DragoFireheart]

Edit: That Massacre is a good idea. Just in time for the Legacy Daily. Miracle lacks good sweepers and therefore i will cut red for black. Thoughtseize is also especially strong in Miracle.

If your meta is heavy with DnT, consider adding 1-2 Dread of Night with a E.Tutor package.

Drop a DoN, then later on drop a Humility. Outside of non-creature enchantment removal, it's GG.

[Poron]

The problem is that if they start landing more hatebears (SoL and Teeg) Miracle runs out of targeted removal.. black gives us Disfigure as well as Massacre and Thoughtseize/Surgical Extraction for combo..

also unilateral SOL with Notion Thief but.. that's an hazard