comes in to play tapped question on city of brass and undiscovered paradise

[abetman]

what happens when city of brass and undiscovered paradise comes in to play tapped?

does city of brass deal damage to its controller?

would undiscovered paradise return to its owners hand on the next untap phase?

[Julian23]

No they won't. I'll leave it to cdr to actually cite the relevant part of the rules ;-)

[cdr]

Lazy, lazy, lazy.

You'll note City of Brass has weird text - "Whenever ~ becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you." This is because it's really old. In fact, City of Brass and Sorrow's Path are the only two lands with that type of text.

What that text means is that when anything taps City - no matter whether it's its own mana ability or Twiddle or anything else - it's dealing a damage. All other lands pretty much only have effects when they're tapped for their own abilities. You can note that Undiscovered Paradise's effect is all part of the mana ability.

But now, for the question of "enters the battlefield tapped" effects, not even City's text matters. "Enters the battlefield tapped" is a replacement effect, which modifies how it enters the battlefield. It was never in an untapped state, so it never "becomes tapped" and doesn't trigger.

[Finn]

In the spirit of poking my nose where it does not belong, Undiscovered Paradise has a different issue. On that one, "Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. During your next untap step, as you untap your permanents, return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand." ...the return to its owner's hand part is a delayed replacement effect that only occurs if you actually activate it to add mana to your pool. In your example, there is no activation, so there is no delayed replacement effect.

CDR, please correct me if this is wrong. I do not see any evidence of a delayed trigger. There is no keyword present. As far as I know, I just made up the phrase "delayed replacement effect", because I have never seen this templating before. But that is the oracle wording.

Either way though, abetman, you don't return it if it simply enters the battlefield tapped for some reason.

[jamis]

CDR, please correct me if this is wrong. I do not see any evidence of a delayed trigger. There is no keyword present. As far as I know, I just made up the phrase "delayed replacement effect", because I have never seen this templating before. But that is the oracle wording.

Yeah, its not a trigger since the printed "At the beginning of your next untap phase," was changed to "During your next untap step," but its also not a replacement effect since it will return even if something prevents you from untapping. I don't know what you'd call that.

[cdr]

Undiscovered Paradise is just straight up modifying how the next untap step works. Unusual and kind of extreme, but making old cards work how they originally did under modern rules sometimes requires kludges.

Replacement effects have certain keywords, most commonly the word "instead". Undiscovered Paradise does not have a replacement effect. There's no need to "delay" replacement effects since they can hang around as long as they're instructed to.

[apple713]

Undiscovered Paradise is just straight up modifying how the next untap step works. Sort of like miracles modify how you draw a card.

Replacement effects have certain keywords, most commonly the word "instead". Undiscovered Paradise does not have a replacement effect. There's no need to "delay" replacement effects since they can hang around as long as they're instructed to.

curious what your credentials are? You a high level judge? Mod of the site? general know it all?

You seem very knowledgable about rulings and other detail oriented subject matters.

[cdr]

curious what your credentials are? You a high level judge? Mod of the site? general know it all?

You seem very knowledgable about rulings and other detail oriented subject matters.

I'm the moderator of this rules board and a retired judge. I was formerly extremely active in GPs, PTs, SCGs, etc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm the moderator of this rules board and a retired judge. I was formerly extremely active in GPs, PTs, SCGs, etc.
I remember the times when you had that small "level II judge" somewhere in your profile, so the above question wouldn't arise... :wink:

EDIT: Oh, I see it now, the word "retired". Ok, makes sense.

[apple713]

I'm the moderator of this rules board and a retired judge. I was formerly extremely active in GPs, PTs, SCGs, etc.

I appreciate the response. It is nice learning who the mods are and a little about them. Is there a thread that intros them all and what forums they monitor?

[cdr]

I appreciate the response. It is nice learning who the mods are and a little about them. Is there a thread that intros them all and what forums they monitor?

There's "view site leaders (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showgroups.php)" under Quick Links at the top, a standard vB feature. Other than that, not really.

[apple713]

There's "view site leaders (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showgroups.php)" under Quick Links at the top, a standard vB feature. Other than that, not really.

Thanks, That kinda helps. Theres only a handful of actives on that list. I guess there just aren't that many needed?