[Ballsack McGee] Sylvan Primordial is banned

[TsumiBand]

I'd repost the link but nah.

While the rest of the civilized Magic world mourned the loss of Deathrite Shaman in Modern, the big hurt was secretly being dropped in Commander. Sheldon and friends apparently decided that in a format where Deadeye Navigator breaks more cards than Dave Gearhart, a fixed Prime Time is still just too goddamned good to be more than a 0-of.

Man, I've been blown out by turn 2 NO -> SP. Shit happens. But real talk, WTRF is the deal here? Like honestly, this is the format where folks play chicken with their 2-card blowout just to see who flinches third. That format needs more control, not less.

I know the EDH banlist is just a strong suggestion, but honest to God, it's like... the minute I forget how terrible most Commander players seem to be at evaluating relative card strength, this ban rolls down the hill like a 4-ton turd straight from the ass of the holy risen John Candy.

Who else didn't see a problem here?

[Amon Amarth]

The card wasn't the backbone of any deck I'm playing or really THAT strong. If you blink it a million times sure but that's slow and easily disruptable. Surprised this got banned instead of DEN. I don't really care but it is a strange target for banning.

[Aggro_zombies]

My general experience with Primordial was that, if it resolved and you were in any way behind (and not the one resolving Primordial), you were losing a mana source and probably also the game. That it was ridiculously easy to curve into a Primordial on turn four meant that you could very well end up stuck on three lands or less versus a 6/8 controlled by an opponent with 10+ mana. Killing the Primordial at that point was pretty irrelevant because your opponent could cast an entwined Tooth and Nail or a Genesis Wave for seven or some other ridiculous mana-intensive bomb and you were just SOL because the table that let Primordial resolve probably wasn't in a position to stop the follow-up play either. It was the textbook definition of NPE and was "soft" house banned around here because no one actually enjoyed playing with or against the card.

If Primordial were just, "Get a Forest for each opponent" or "Bramblecrush each opponent" it would be perfectly fine, but the fact that it was both at once was a little too much. Also, Sundering Titan is banned, and "destroy one land, ramp" is only mildly less obnoxious than "destroy two lands," especially because Primordial could actually Armageddon you whereas Sundering Titan would at least leave you with things like filter lands or Core Set CipT lands.

That said, yeah, I'm surprised both Consecrated Sphinx and Deadeye Navigator continue to be legal (the former especially given the Trade Secrets ban). Deadeye is a card whose time I suspect will come eventually, although if Primordial didn't do it then I'm not sure what would. And I say this as someone who really, really likes Deadeye and cards like Deadeye, simply because he gives you an incentive to play with some less common EtB dudes in a format too-often dominated by the same burly, card-advantage-generating finishers.

On the other hand, the RC doesn't seem to be managing the format for complete balance - Sol Ring is still legal, for example, and that thing is better than the currently-banned Moxen. Sphinx has been in the format for longer than Deadeye and doesn't seem to cause as much complaining, so my guess is Deadeye will be next if anything gets banned soon. I'm actually somewhat reluctant to pick up a foil one for my Damia deck since they're around $15-20 and I don't want to play it for three months and then watch it get the axe.

Oddly, some people on the official Commander forums seem to want Prophet of Kruphix banned next, which strikes me as being wrong on multiple levels.

[TsumiBand]

My general experience with Primordial was that, if it resolved and you were in any way behind (and not the one resolving Primordial), you were losing a mana source and probably also the game. That it was ridiculously easy to curve into a Primordial on turn four meant that you could very well end up stuck on three lands or less versus a 6/8 controlled by an opponent with 10+ mana. Killing the Primordial at that point was pretty irrelevant because your opponent could cast an entwined Tooth and Nail or a Genesis Wave for seven or some other ridiculous mana-intensive bomb and you were just SOL because the table that let Primordial resolve probably wasn't in a position to stop the follow-up play either. It was the textbook definition of NPE and was "soft" house banned around here because no one actually enjoyed playing with or against the card.

If Primordial were just, "Get a Forest for each opponent" or "Bramblecrush each opponent" it would be perfectly fine, but the fact that it was both at once was a little too much. Also, Sundering Titan is banned, and "destroy one land, ramp" is only mildly less obnoxious than "destroy two lands," especially because Primordial could actually Armageddon you whereas Sundering Titan would at least leave you with things like filter lands or Core Set CipT lands.

That said, yeah, I'm surprised both Consecrated Sphinx and Deadeye Navigator continue to be legal (the former especially given the Trade Secrets ban). Deadeye is a card whose time I suspect will come eventually, although if Primordial didn't do it then I'm not sure what would. And I say this as someone who really, really likes Deadeye and cards like Deadeye, simply because he gives you an incentive to play with some less common EtB dudes in a format too-often dominated by the same burly, card-advantage-generating finishers.

On the other hand, the RC doesn't seem to be managing the format for complete balance - Sol Ring is still legal, for example, and that thing is better than the currently-banned Moxen. Sphinx has been in the format for longer than Deadeye and doesn't seem to cause as much complaining, so my guess is Deadeye will be next if anything gets banned soon. I'm actually somewhat reluctant to pick up a foil one for my Damia deck since they're around $15-20 and I don't want to play it for three months and then watch it get the axe.

Oddly, some people on the official Commander forums seem to want Prophet of Kruphix banned next, which strikes me as being wrong on multiple levels.

I agree with a lot of this, and I'm a guy that enjoys playing DEN as well, if for no other reason than it makes Sedris not a terrible commander. Really I think the tenor of the discussion revolving around DEN is a lot like that of the SotF discussion in Legacy right around the time Vengevine pushed the card over the edge.

I haven't played against Prophet yet, I'm sure it's a durdly house in this format though. Even so I have a hunch that it's in the same vein as the other discussions; is PoK being looked at because it is enabling stupid combo to just win? Or is it allowing control decks to play control?

I dislike the notion that the basic RPS of aggro/control/combo has to be upset in favor of "my favorite two dudes + T&N". Especially if they're going to ditch SP and then just blatantly ignore the bevy of busted Blue things like Consecrated Sphinx and Deadeye Navigator, and yeah some of these mana rocks are fucking ridiculous as well.

Anyway though, having said that, I admit I didn't like being shut out by SP, but at least in my experience it was never the kind of shut-out where I was going to catch up anyway, know what I mean? If Sylvan-P was wrecking my board and I was that far behind everybody, honestly that's just a mercy killing. In 3, 4, 5+ player games of EDH, someone's always on the bottom rung. No sense in making the game last longer than it needs to, I say.

[Aggro_zombies]

I haven't played against Prophet yet, I'm sure it's a durdly house in this format though. Even so I have a hunch that it's in the same vein as the other discussions; is PoK being looked at because it is enabling stupid combo to just win? Or is it allowing control decks to play control?
Dunno. I haven't really bothered to go looking for cogent arguments for the banning of the card, I just know some outspoken members of those boards want it banned. My guess is that it's a combination of not liking having to play against it and "it warps games around it," neither of which are sufficient reasons to warrant a ban. I mean, the latter reason was applied to Prime Time, but Prime Time also did a bunch of dumb things that generally exploited the taboo against MLD in the format.

As someone who plays Prophet, I can say that the card is amazing and very powerful but also very fragile. She's not like DEN where you can use something like Mystic Snake or Venser to keep hate cards off your back; many of the anti-removal creatures have flash already, so she's not really adding anything there that couldn't already be accomplished with Seedborn Muse. The fact that she's two colors also limits how often she'll show up, which makes her less of a problem in my book than similarly-powerful monocolored cards. Something like Sphinx is good in every blue deck regardless of what other color(s) that deck is and regardless of what that deck's game plan is; Prophet is at her best in a UG/x creature deck that's also heavy on sorceries or activated creature abilities. DEN doesn't even need that many creatures to be a hassle, as long as at least a few of them have annoying EtB abilities.

I'd like to hear the logic as to why DEN is still around. I get that it's answerable by mass and instant-speed targeted removal, but so are (currently banned) Griselbrand, Metalworker, and Painter's Servant. Even when you just pair it with something derpy like Man-o'-War, it's very, very strong, but when you pair it with something bigger like one of the Primordials it just turns into a headache.

I suspect Sphinx is legal mostly because of inertia. It's been in the format for almost three years and at no point have they seemed to really consider it for a ban, so I don't expect it to end up banned anytime soon. Kind of a pity, because if you can't deal with it right away, or at least within the same turn cycle it's cast, the blue player is probably never going to let you deal with it.

EDIT: I guess my reaction to the ban of Primordial is, "It didn't need to go right now, but I'm nevertheless glad it's gone," which is better than some reactions I've had to bans.

[Offler]

I was not surprised when Sylvan Primordial was banned. Simply because Sundering Titan and Primeval titan were already banned. Sylvan primordial is both... so I expected him to be banned months ago and I often predicted that it will be banned one day...

I have seen games when he was entombed and reanimated on turn 2. Also guy who let him into play as the first one also won the game. Never seen him with DEN but in reanimation decks. The situation was so bad that I included Sadistic sacrament in my Anowon deck and planned to add Extract to my blue Teferi deck only because of Sylvan Primordial.

On the other hand I agree that there are cards which deserve banning too and DEN is one of them.

By the way whats so broken on Consecrated Sphinx? I know some of interactions it opens, but... generally nothing as much broken as Primordial.

[Davran]

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other on SP...but I do think that 95% of the problems people have with the card could have been solved by the designer including "you may" right there before "destroy" in the text box.

Sure, I've been in games where it came out "too soon", blew up some lands because they were the only legal targets currently in play, and proceeded to dominate...but it was never really a "feel bad" kind of moment. I mean, this is supposed to be a fun format, right? Who the hell am I to tell you how to play your cards or what you consider "fun"?

On the other side of the coin, I've been in games where the decision tree for SP went something like this: Blow up that artifact, and your annoying enchantment, and...um...I guess that mountain? That kind of situation is perfectly fair in my opinion.

Like most things on the banlist, we do this to ourselves. Sylvan Primordial is just another casualty of people doing things because they can, not because they should.

If I may pontificate here for a moment - The true problem with the format is lazy deck building, not whatever the current boogeyman card is. You know what stops the guy trying to reanimate his SP on turn 2? Tormod's Crypt. Or Relic of Progenitus...or Nihil Spellbomb...or Grafdigger's Cage. Sure, you may not draw it every game. I get that. But he won't draw Entomb and Reanimate either. There's lots of talk about DEN being "too good". Play Torpor Orb then. Or Pithing Needle...or Phyrexian Revoker...or Cursed Totem. It's not like playing answers to what you think of as problem cards for your particular strategy is somehow taxing...they're all colorless for shit's sake. Hell, they're all even useful against other, less "broken" plays your opponents could make. Rather than piss and moan about how the RC banned the wrong card or didn't ban the true menace learn to play around it. If you can't do that, at least learn that you can't win every game you sit down and play. Sometimes you lose to the guy playing reanimator. Oh well. Shuffle up and play again. /rant

[Megadeus]

Hermit Druid is legal and all of these other cards get banned? Lol Lol Lol

[TsumiBand]

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other on SP...but I do think that 95% of the problems people have with the card could have been solved by the designer including "you may" right there before "destroy" in the text box.

Sure, I've been in games where it came out "too soon", blew up some lands because they were the only legal targets currently in play, and proceeded to dominate...but it was never really a "feel bad" kind of moment. I mean, this is supposed to be a fun format, right? Who the hell am I to tell you how to play your cards or what you consider "fun"?

On the other side of the coin, I've been in games where the decision tree for SP went something like this: Blow up that artifact, and your annoying enchantment, and...um...I guess that mountain? That kind of situation is perfectly fair in my opinion.

Like most things on the banlist, we do this to ourselves. Sylvan Primordial is just another casualty of people doing things because they can, not because they should.

If I may pontificate here for a moment - The true problem with the format is lazy deck building, not whatever the current boogeyman card is. You know what stops the guy trying to reanimate his SP on turn 2? Tormod's Crypt. Or Relic of Progenitus...or Nihil Spellbomb...or Grafdigger's Cage. Sure, you may not draw it every game. I get that. But he won't draw Entomb and Reanimate either. There's lots of talk about DEN being "too good". Play Torpor Orb then. Or Pithing Needle...or Phyrexian Revoker...or Cursed Totem. It's not like playing answers to what you think of as problem cards for your particular strategy is somehow taxing...they're all colorless for shit's sake. Hell, they're all even useful against other, less "broken" plays your opponents could make. Rather than piss and moan about how the RC banned the wrong card or didn't ban the true menace learn to play around it. If you can't do that, at least learn that you can't win every game you sit down and play. Sometimes you lose to the guy playing reanimator. Oh well. Shuffle up and play again. /rant

That's a great point about "you may". I always hated blowing up a player's stuff if they weren't in the game, or if they were a new-jack rocking some jank because someone told them EDH was nothing but dollar-bin madness.

That whole "can vs. should" thing is a real problem as a result of the kinds of players the format brings to it -- but really given the nature of the card we're talking about right now, I don't know that it applies to Sylvan Primordial. As stated, SP has a mandatory effect, and I stand by my previous assertion that there's always a laggard in a multiplayer game and they will always have the uphill struggle, unless they're purposefully ignored to be given a shot at interacting. In my experience, they typically are left alone, save the random mandatory effect or like some 13-year-old random who's just dying to cast that Blightning and so they cast it on the person who represents the least threat, to feel like they're doing something.

So on one hand, Sylvan Primordial was necessarily dicking the ugly duckling, but on the other hand -- that's one game out of, how many? Where it just equalizes the board, or even better -- that laggard manages to catch up, precisely because they had SP in their deck.

The part about building decks with answers in mind though; I gotta say, without some kind of sideboard rule I really don't know that that's going to be realistic for this format, ever. It's been asserted by some that Legacy has too wide a field to adequately sideboard for a truly random experience, and whether this is an assertion based on what's Tier 1 vs. what's in the actual metagame is a discussion for a different thread, I think. If there is any truth to that statement, I think it is doubly a problem in EDH due to the whole "Spirit of the Format" thing that everyone harps on.

My approach so far has been to try and whip out the right deck for my opponents - not necessarily to load all my decks with metagame answers. Maybe it's worth re-evaluating that decision; I gotta say though, I like playing decks that have some kind of thematic significance. When I play GoodStuff in EDH, I feel… bored? Cheap? Subversive? I don't necessarily mean Torpor Orb is subversive, but it's a great sideboard card in a format without sideboards (apart from the optional 10-card rule, but it's optional, because… it's optional).

I mean I get that the things that drive this banned list are people trying to foster interactions of nature J, K, L and M while downplaying Q, R, and S. Anything that subverts the nature of the format; Prime Time, Emrakul, or Grusselbrand hits and we suddenly stop playing Magic and start playing Capture the Flag. The problem sometimes is that the dragon eats its own tail for its appetite. When LD is bad but T&N -> 2-card lock is good, there's a ton of collateral damage between the casting costs of Armageddon's :3::w: and Tooth and Nail's :7::g::g:, and the stupid thing is that's where some valid control elements live. It's true that the choices players make define this format -- but I don't think the choice was with the way people were playing with Sylvan Primordial, but rather in the way people weren't playing stuff like Catastrophe, Cataclysm, Obliterate, and so on. There are 155 cards in Gatherer that contain the phrase "destroy all" -- whether they are Jokulhaups or Suleiman's Legacy, doesn't really matter -- there are a non-zero number of playables.

It's the same problem as new kids have with counterspells. They bring their 70-card non-linear aggro deck to a tournament and fear casting spells because they're sure you have counters, and poo-poo about how busted counters are, when they don't even see that if they'd just tune their deck a little and make counters bad via redundant card choices and functional analogues they were actually being protected from combo blowouts by those counter-slinging jerks. Or at least, they used to be, there's a hatebear for everything now, but that's besides the point.

Off the top of my head, I feel like this affects maybe… one deck of mine? So it's not a huge deal on a personal level. Not sure if anyone noticed this but I tend to play up my emotional responses to things because my humor tells me to just go there -- really, this banning just seems like one of those oddball cult snuffings where they have to kill someone who wants to, like… reintroduce some modern convenience to their twisted version of alternative life-styles. Per the following reenactment:

Gerold Ackins, played by Rick Moranis: "…I…I'm telling you!! Going back to email will save us so much time and effort in spreading the Gospel of Marmaduke!!"
Fr. Don Blintz, played by Christopher Lee: "No, Gerold. The Slobbery Codex is clear: None shall return to the entrapments of cyberspace!"
Gerold: "But I… wait, wait, w-w-w-what are you doing with that knife, Father?"
Blintz: "…What must…" *stab stab stab* "…be done!"

Insert Sylvan Primordial wherever you like. I think I confused the metaphor. He's there, somewhere.

[Davran]

The part about building decks with answers in mind though; I gotta say, without some kind of sideboard rule I really don't know that that's going to be realistic for this format, ever. It's been asserted by some that Legacy has too wide a field to adequately sideboard for a truly random experience, and whether this is an assertion based on what's Tier 1 vs. what's in the actual metagame is a discussion for a different thread, I think. If there is any truth to that statement, I think it is doubly a problem in EDH due to the whole "Spirit of the Format" thing that everyone harps on.

My approach so far has been to try and whip out the right deck for my opponents - not necessarily to load all my decks with metagame answers. Maybe it's worth re-evaluating that decision; I gotta say though, I like playing decks that have some kind of thematic significance. When I play GoodStuff in EDH, I feel… bored? Cheap? Subversive? I don't necessarily mean Torpor Orb is subversive, but it's a great sideboard card in a format without sideboards (apart from the optional 10-card rule, but it's optional, because… it's optional).

Perhaps I can be more clear about my point - The more the RC caves on stuff like this the more people will look to it as an answer to whatever the problem is rather than trying to come up with a solution on their own.

I agree that it's not feasible or fun to build sideboard.deck, but I don't think it's all that unreasonable to look at your local metagame when making card choices...especially if there's one guy who is out of bounds with his play.

[Koby]

Mana Crypt is legal, but a 7 mana green creature is banned.

Ya... OK - this format is a joke.

EDIT: I didn't just come in here to say EDH is a casual only format. But rather, that the perceived threat of Sylvan Primordial is somehow more important to ban than the best accelerator in the format. I don't think I've ever encountered a game in which I led with Mana Crypt and did not win (in 1v1 play).

[Ace/Homebrew]

Mana Crypt is legal, but a 7 mana green creature is banned.

Hermit Druid is legal and all of these other cards get banned? Lol Lol Lol
I think the RC considers a players intent when adding/removing cards to the banned list. By this I mean, the average player that uses Hermit Druid, Mana Crypt, LED, etc... has the intention of 'being a dick' and winning right away or making the game unfun for others. This type of play style is controlled socially and the cards do not require banning because if it becomes a problem in a play group, the group stops including the dick. Some groups are full of dicks and it is a race to see who's the biggest that game.

The problem with SP and Primeval is that it makes casual players dicks without much effort.
Ramp into PT, find Cabal and Urborg. Next turn Exsanguinate for lethal!
Ramp into SP, destroy lands and ramp 3 forests. Next turn Tooth and Nail entwined!

[AngryTroll]

I think the RC considers a players intent when adding/removing cards to the banned list. By this I mean, the average player that uses Hermit Druid, Mana Crypt, LED, etc... has the intention of 'being a jerk' and winning right away or making the game unfun for others. This type of play style is controlled socially and the cards do not require banning because if it becomes a problem in a play group, the group stops including the jerk. Some groups are full of jerks and it is a race to see who's the biggest that game.

This sounds exactly right to me. My local playgroup enjoys playing EDH for fun, so even when someone does play a combo deck, it's a complicated Rube Goldberg-type contraption. Several people play Hermit Druid...in decks with 20ish basic lands. On the other hand, Sylvan Primordial and Consecrated Sphinx fit nicely into "fair" EDH decks but warp the game around those cards.

[TsumiBand]

I think the RC considers a players intent when adding/removing cards to the banned list. By this I mean, the average player that uses Hermit Druid, Mana Crypt, LED, etc... has the intention of 'being a dick' and winning right away or making the game unfun for others. This type of play style is controlled socially and the cards do not require banning because if it becomes a problem in a play group, the group stops including the dick. Some groups are full of dicks and it is a race to see who's the biggest that game.

The problem with SP and Primeval is that it makes casual players dicks without much effort.
Ramp into PT, find Cabal and Urborg. Next turn Exsanguinate for lethal!
Ramp into SP, destroy lands and ramp 3 forests. Next turn Tooth and Nail entwined!

Eeeehhhhhhhh I dunnnnoooooooooooo…...

I mean if this is the mentality, then there should be a Johnny, Timmy, and Spike banlist accordingly, right? If we're just going to see bans based on the ways we choose to interact with cards? "Augh I put Primeval Titan in my deck, and I dunno man I was just like… compelled to add all this shit like Urzatron and fucking Urborg/Coffers. Those church folk were right, the game's got me man. It's fucking got me."

[Koby]

I think the RC considers a players intent when adding/removing cards to the banned list. By this I mean, the average player that uses Hermit Druid, Mana Crypt, LED, etc... has the intention of 'being a dick' and winning right away or making the game unfun for others. This type of play style is controlled socially and the cards do not require banning because if it becomes a problem in a play group, the group stops including the dick. Some groups are full of dicks and it is a race to see who's the biggest that game.

The problem with SP and Primeval is that it makes casual players dicks without much effort.
Ramp into PT, find Cabal and Urborg. Next turn Exsanguinate for lethal!
Ramp into SP, destroy lands and ramp 3 forests. Next turn Tooth and Nail entwined!

If that's the prevailing philosophy, then why bother to ban anything officially? Play groups will ban as they see fit regardless of anything official.

[TsumiBand]

If that's the prevailing philosophy, then why bother to ban anything officially? Play groups will ban as they see fit regardless of anything official.

Well that's part of it too, their whole banned list is just a polite suggestion. I just don't happen to know anyone who would actually appreciate taking the local banlist and going rogue, so yeah. Really I mean it's an unsanctioned format, you can play with Vs. cards and hockey sticks if your local group allows for it.

[warfordium]

i posted this earlier and lost most of it, but: i can get behind banning sylvan and prime time since they amplify an early mana advantage and act either as a tutor for a combo piece or as an anti-answer while doing it.

there is an answer in the social contract and deck-building (i.e. infinite combos are okay if the redundancy/tutor density is kept low enough, or if your only DEN targets are value creatures such as EWit and Coiling Oracle as in my Damia goodstuff control build, or you make a rule to scoop to dumb plays—i scoop on sight to a resolved genesis wave), but the rules committee has to do something visible and official to make people take notice, or at least start a conversation.

1v1 is another beast.

edit: i got 99 posts but a broken commander playground ain't one.

[Megadeus]

If that's the prevailing philosophy, then why bother to ban anything officially? Play groups will ban as they see fit regardless of anything official.

This. I know that EDH tourneys at SCG events or whatever aren't "official", but leagues around at LGS's and such adhere to the ban list that is "encouraged" by the EDH guys. Just cutting out PrimeTime and Sylvan doesnt even affect that type of deal. I mean I guess technically you could simply just allow your buddies to play the cards in your local play group, but at that point it seems meaningless to have a ban list that, despite the format not being official, actually affects some sorts of tournaments.

[Aggro_zombies]

Tournament EDH is already managed by the French 1v1 List. I'm pretty sure the Rules Committee is managing the format with a mid-powered metagame in mind, one where maybe one person has Mana Crypt so the card rarely shows up, where Hermit Druid mills five before he reveals a Forest, where a card like Sylvan Primordial is legitimately oppressive rather than just a beefy green utility jerk.

However, given that, I don't know why Consecrated Sphinx and Deadeye Navigator are still legal. In mid-power metagames, both of those are obnoxious, a pain to deal with, and warping when they're in play.

[Megadeus]

Consecrated Sphinx is pretty retarded. Oh the third player finally killed it? Okay. I drew at least 6 cards

Just discussing this reminds me of why I hate EDH.

[AngryTroll]

Tournament EDH is already managed by the French 1v1 List. I'm pretty sure the Rules Committee is managing the format with a mid-powered metagame in mind, one where maybe one person has Mana Crypt so the card rarely shows up, where Hermit Druid mills five before he reveals a Forest, where a card like Sylvan Primordial is legitimately oppressive rather than just a beefy green utility jerk.

However, given that, I don't know why Consecrated Sphinx and Deadeye Navigator are still legal. In mid-power metagames, both of those are obnoxious, a pain to deal with, and warping when they're in play.

Everything said here.

In the context of a fun, midpowered metagame, Consecrated Sphinx, Deadeye Navigator, and Sylvan Primordial are the cards that (locally, at least):
1) Warp the game around them immediately,
2) see regular play,
3) are difficult to remove effectively, and
4) often end the game (or put one player insurmountably ahead) after a single turn.

By those standards, I'm not at all surprised that Sylvan Primordial got the ban hammer.

[TsumiBand]

The French Banlist looks pretty okay. I might build Skullbriar against this. I doubt that guy will fly too far in multiplayer anyway.

Back to Basics?! Well… I guess I could see that. But dang. Where's my Choke?

Anyway, inasmuch as I have come to appreciate EDH for it being really the most accessible format around these parts anymore, I still don't like the way this was handled. Banning on the basis of low- to mid-power decks only to keep all the same busted Blue stuff on the basis that only a broken table will play it feels like a kiddish mentality about the nature of Blue in Magic.

"This format is for everybody. But -- Jerks just always play Blue anyway, because they want to play broken things and broken things are Blue. So we'll leave the broken Blue things on there to let those guys play EDH too. Now then…! you guys digging in the crap bin for rares and whatnot -- I hear you're being awfully naughty with those Sylvan Primordials. Where's the fun in that?? If your neighbor wants to play T&N you have to *let them*. That's the point of this format! So we're taking Primordial away until you guys can make better choices. Or I guess you could play Blue if you're going to play like that. jerks."

Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

I make it sound like I'm butthurt over losing SP -- I don't think I am really, and I haven't actually *lost* anything, I can just play it and tell randoms to eat a donkey. The mentality behind the ban is personally just hard for me to get behind. If you look at the mothership forum, the last posted discussion from September 2013 basically says "No one mentioned the same card twice for banning, so we feel pretty good even after the Legend rule change." Not sure how 4 months later, SP is presented as having drawn 'increasing' amounts of fire and then summarily kicked to the curb. Blue cards continue to abuse the format and 'Food Chain combo forever' Commanders can be allowed to exist because they're in the Commander 2013 product, but Sylvan Primordial is just too bwoken. *sad violins*

[Ace/Homebrew]

Eeeehhhhhhhh I dunnnnoooooooooooo…...

I mean if this is the mentality, then there should be a Johnny, Timmy, and Spike banlist accordingly, right?
Umm, no? :eyebrow: I'm not sure how you got that from what I said...

MtG Commander, click 'Philosophy' (http://www.mtgcommander.net/rules.php)

Commander is designed to promote social games of magic. It is played in a variety of ways, depending on player preference, but a common vision ties together the global community to help them enjoy a different kind of magic. That vision is predicated on a social contract: a gentleman's agreement which goes beyond these rules to includes a degree of interactivity between players. Players should aim to interact both during the game and before it begins, discussing with other players what they expect/want from the game.

February 2014 - Sylvan Primordial BANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16697)

...we want to keep the banned list as short as practical.

April 2013 - Staff of Domination UNBANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15735)

These days there are plenty of scarier combo cards out there, and Staff of Domination has a valid role as a cool utility card... ...Please enjoy Staff of Domination responsibly.

September 2012- Primeval Titan BANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12253)

One of the concerns that we've had recently is the overrepresentation of heavy ramp strategies, to the point where it makes up a large proportion of the aggregate decks out there.

June 2012 - Sundering Titan BANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12073)

It was too easily both intentionally abused and unintentionally game-warping, especially since its ability triggers on both entering and leaving the battlefield.

March 2012 - NO CHANGES (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11636)

The most intensive work we’re doing regards some reworking of the rules and philosophy section. We’re not really changing anything so much as more deeply and clearly articulating the set of cascading philosophies of the format and our goals for it. You’ll see the results of that work shortly. The top level message is that there is an Official Version of Commander, and that the official version can live in harmony with local and house rules. The vision of a shared positive group experience and methods for achieving it will play strongly in what we have to say.

September 2011 - Lion's Eye Diamond UNBANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10749)

Unbanning Lion's Eye Diamond is also likely to cause some hue and cry. There is a small but vocal segment of the commander player base who say that all fast mana like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt should be banned to balance the format... a complaint which rather misses the point. Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit. The rules page and list of unwelcome cards is there to help players avoid *accidentally* ruining games... and LED's presence on the list wasn't accomplishing that.

LED was originally banned as an example of a two-card infinite mana combo (with Auriok Salvagers), but like Worldgorger Dragon its presence on the list is increasingly incongruous. There are many two-card combos which actually kill multiple players in a single turn, and most players new to the format don't see LED and think "Ah, inifinite mana combos are kind scummy." Additionally, there are interesting ways to use LED and, consistent with our philosophy on blacklisting cards, most of the boring uses of LED are easy to distinguish from its interesting applications. It enables commanders late in the game, and expensive commanders in particular because they tend to be played later when hands are smaller.

June 2011 - Worldgorger Dragon UNBANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9564)

We don't unban cards lightly, but it's time for Worldgorger Dragon to get out of the penalty box. It is no longer a particularly strong example of unwelcome, format-warping, combo-play style, but simply another infinite-combo piece. Those applications are narrow enough that it should not cause problems for social players, and the type of player who wants to play this kind of infinite combo isn't going to play a more fun deck because Worldgorger Dragon is available. Thus, since it's a goal to keep the list as short as possible and focused on more fun-oriented games, we believe it can come off the list.

March 2011 - NO CHANGES (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6934)

...we came to the conclusion that while a few of the less social cards might provide suboptimal experiences for some of those new players, they also might not, and some of those cards provide a positive experience for veterans and Johnnies as premium win conditions. Attempting to over-engineer the way players have fun in the format by banning a few cards that we consider anti-social would lead to a cascade of bannings (“If you ban X, you have to ban Y”), creating a large, unmanageable, and undesirable Banned List, which we believe is extremely unhealthy.

These are admittedly cherry-picked quotes, but ALL of them support my previous post. I encourage you to find support for "Eeeehhhhhhhh I dunnnnoooooooooooo…...". :tongue:

[TsumiBand]

Umm, no? :eyebrow: I'm not following how you jumped to that conclusion from what I said...

MtG Commander, click 'Philosophy' (http://www.mtgcommander.net/rules.php)


February 2014 - Sylvan Primordial BANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16697)


April 2013 - Staff of Domination UNBANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15735)


September 2012- Primeval Titan BANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12253)


June 2012 - Sundering Titan BANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12073)


March 2012 - NO CHANGES (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11636)


September 2011 - Lion's Eye Diamond UNBANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10749)


June 2011 - Worldgorger Dragon UNBANNED (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9564)


March 2011 - NO CHANGES (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6934)


I'll stop there.
These are admittedly cherry-picked quotes, but ALL of them support my previous post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27520-Ballsack-McGee-Sylvan-Primordial-is-banned&p=789313&viewfull=1#post789313). I encourage you to find support for your statement of "Eeeehhhhhhhh I dunnnnoooooooooooo…...". I suspect you will have some difficulty. :tongue:

Woah woah woah WOAH.

I was expressing an opinion! Slow down Quotey McCopyPaste. I'm not in it for any facts or figures or any of that "proof positive" crazy internet bullshit. I don't have to 'support' a personal assertion, except to say that I made the statement with the hopes that it would be understood as an opinion and not a restatement of the goal of the format.

Blimey.

Look, listen - I know about the gentlemen's agreement surrounding the format and I encourage it. However, that doesn't mean I surrender my goofy, limited, capricious powers of observation whenever a ban/unban falls out the back of Sheldon's Kia. And by my reckoning - this word 'interaction' gets thrown around to justify all manner of odd decision that primarily translates into "turning guys sideways with the hopes of adding up a whole lot of combat damage."

[Ace/Homebrew]

Woah woah woah WOAH.

I was expressing an opinion! Slow down Quotey McCopyPaste.
Fair! Most of my copy/paste wall was for the benefit of others unfortunately positioned in a response to your post. :rolleyes:
My bad.

----

I know complaining 'just cause' is a thing, but answers are out there explaining why the RC let you use toys from Magic's history you can't play outside vintage but bans 'fair' cards that warp games.

So, on topic...
Sylvan meets the criteria for a ban. I was not hoping for it and have to replace the 1 copy I use. I am surprised Sphinx hasn't been banned yet.

[apple713]

if primordial is a threat on t4-5 does anyone know why hermit druid is not banned? it wins t3-4

[Aggro_zombies]

if primordial is a threat on t4-5 does anyone know why hermit druid is not banned? it wins t3-4
Because the Rules Committee doesn't manage the format for complete competitive balance. Their take on it seems to be that if you want to do really broken things then they'd have to have a ten page or longer banlist to keep you in check, which just isn't worth it because players like that are a small minority of total EDH players.

If you want to play EDH as Vintage Lite, use the French Banned list. It's made for that style of play.

[Ace/Homebrew]

anyone know why hermit druid is not banned?
http://teamzoll.com/img/i-give-up-e1356638782910.jpg

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Oddly, some people on the official Commander forums seem to want Prophet of Kruphix banned next, which strikes me as being wrong on multiple levels.

I think there's a lot of reasons to be upset with cards like that, but plenty more deserving candidates for a ban.

As one of those weirdos that doesn't like playing Blue or Green in EDH, it's certainly disheartening when the spoilers roll out and the two best colors (U and G) become even better, being showered with gifts of goodstuff by Wizards R&D while Red and White still languish in poverty of power. While Blue recieves boons such as Curse of Swine, Enter the Infinite, and Cyclonic Rift Red players are left to "enjoy" Guild Feud, Whims of the Fates, and Scrambleverse. Thanks Wizards!

Cards like a Seedborn Muse on crack are just another in a long line of power-ups to the best colors in EDH, pushing them even further away from the peasants that sling White/Black/Red cardboard highlander decks.

Yeah, occasionally a few bones like Hellkite Tyrant are tossed out, but there's still an enormous imbalance of power. Probably the worst part is how Wizards themselves run a Two-Minutes-Hate on land destruction at every given moment, poisoning player's minds against anyone who might dare to cast Wake of Destruction or Armageddon to counter the U/G/x player that just ramped into a billion lands. Now the entire table is against you because you killed fun, in their wool-covered eyes.

I'm not asking for Wizards to reverse 25 years of Magic history...it would just be nice if they would stop shifyting every effect into Blue because "LOL TOP DOWN DESIGN" and maybe suggest that LD isn't the Great Satan in EDH. Would go a long way to making things more enjoyable for types like me.

[TsumiBand]

I think there's a lot of reasons to be upset with cards like that, but plenty more deserving candidates for a ban.

As one of those weirdos that doesn't like playing Blue or Green in EDH, it's certainly disheartening when the spoilers roll out and the two best colors (U and G) become even better, being showered with gifts of goodstuff by Wizards R&D while Red and White still languish in poverty of power. While Blue recieves boons such as Curse of Swine, Enter the Infinite, and Cyclonic Rift Red players are left to "enjoy" Guild Feud, Whims of the Fates, and Scrambleverse. Thanks Wizards!

Cards like a Seedborn Muse on crack are just another in a long line of power-ups to the best colors in EDH, pushing them even further away from the peasants that sling White/Black/Red cardboard highlander decks.

Yeah, occasionally a few bones like Hellkite Tyrant are tossed out, but there's still an enormous imbalance of power. Probably the worst part is how Wizards themselves run a Two-Minutes-Hate on land destruction at every given moment, poisoning player's minds against anyone who might dare to cast Wake of Destruction or Armageddon to counter the U/G/x player that just ramped into a billion lands. Now the entire table is against you because you killed fun, in their wool-covered eyes.

I'm not asking for Wizards to reverse 25 years of Magic history...it would just be nice if they would stop shifyting every effect into Blue because "LOL TOP DOWN DESIGN" and maybe suggest that LD isn't the Great Satan in EDH. Would go a long way to making things more enjoyable for types like me.

This guy. +1

I'm fine with Dumb Green being A Thing in EDH, but yeah UG really does get effects that are both fun and potent. I'm one of those Kaalia-playing shit-asses that isn't afraid to blow up all the land spells, but I do feel obligated to see that I'm at the right table for it. As far as I'm concerned land destruction is a community service.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Bryant Cook]

Hermit Druid is legal and all of these other cards get banned? Lol Lol Lol

My thoughts exactly. But that's fine by me as the Hermit Druid player, my deck is god damn insane. I'll post both of my EDH decks updates here within the next few days, they're both pretty degenerate.

[Offler]

In order to keep my Blue deck bit more casual i follow two banlists at the same time:

This
http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=bannedlist

and this:
http://mtgcommander.net/rules.php

On the other hand I refused to follow French EDH banlist. It seems to me to be least consistent or follow any philosophy. They banned Serra Ascendant which I like, but later I realize that its only single creature without any interactions...

The problem with Sylvan primordial is not that its so broken it can win the game in single infinite combo. It can be used in sac => reanimate combos to destroy all non-creature permanents, but still thats not the reason.

The reason is how often it sees play. Recently released cards are usually quite popular and some of them carry the hype from new edition into other formats. SP is same case. I know worldgorger dragon is broken, but honestly, how many times you have seen it in play since it was unbanned?

I asked few people why they play SP, or why they even added green into the deck. Answers were like "everyone plays it, and it really works". Saying that there are no decks build around SP is true and false at the same time. Many of the decks which are utilizing it would not be as strong without it. It simply became an "autoinclude" card, which was previously typical for powerful artifacts... If 3 players out of 4 are playing Green/black (eventually other color) combinantion, and those 3 players have Sylvan Primordial and reanimation it says a lot.

[Davran]

I think there's a lot of reasons to be upset with cards like that, but plenty more deserving candidates for a ban.

As one of those weirdos that doesn't like playing Blue or Green in EDH, it's certainly disheartening when the spoilers roll out and the two best colors (U and G) become even better, being showered with gifts of goodstuff by Wizards R&D while Red and White still languish in poverty of power. While Blue recieves boons such as Curse of Swine, Enter the Infinite, and Cyclonic Rift Red players are left to "enjoy" Guild Feud, Whims of the Fates, and Scrambleverse. Thanks Wizards!

Cards like a Seedborn Muse on crack are just another in a long line of power-ups to the best colors in EDH, pushing them even further away from the peasants that sling White/Black/Red cardboard highlander decks.

Yeah, occasionally a few bones like Hellkite Tyrant are tossed out, but there's still an enormous imbalance of power. Probably the worst part is how Wizards themselves run a Two-Minutes-Hate on land destruction at every given moment, poisoning player's minds against anyone who might dare to cast Wake of Destruction or Armageddon to counter the U/G/x player that just ramped into a billion lands. Now the entire table is against you because you killed fun, in their wool-covered eyes.

I'm not asking for Wizards to reverse 25 years of Magic history...it would just be nice if they would stop shifyting every effect into Blue because "LOL TOP DOWN DESIGN" and maybe suggest that LD isn't the Great Satan in EDH. Would go a long way to making things more enjoyable for types like me.

I do agree with you...but I'd also like to play devil's advocate for a second here.

Red is never going to be a strong color in this format, no matter what WotC decides to print. As a color (top down design or whatever you want to call it), red is all about being aggressive and creating chaos. This means cheap, efficient spells (i.e. Goblin Guide and Lightning Bolt). There's noting wrong with those cards (or their design)...until you give everyone at the table 40 life and a 99 card pile where the average body is 5/5 and at least 2 of the cards somehow wipe the board. If you want to stay true to the "flavor" of red, you're essentially left with cards that create chaos. In that context, Scrambleverse is awesome.

For players like you and I that spend some portion of our time reading legacy boards and playing semi-competitive magic building a chaos deck with dregs like Scrambleverse is the last thing we would ever do when a card like Cyclonic Rift exists. But you can bet that somebody somewhere windmill slammed that thing into their deck, and they're ecstatic that it was printed.

You have to remember that the design team doesn't sit down and say "hm, I wonder what effect this has on that Azami EDH deck people play?" or "A 2/2 with haste for R seems ok, but we should try to make it playable in EDH" as they make cards, and they never will. Does it suck for the guy trying to play Boros? Absolutely, but banning something else from the guy playing Simic isn't going to make that any better.

[TsumiBand]

I do agree with you...but I'd also like to play devil's advocate for a second here.

Red is never going to be a strong color in this format, no matter what WotC decides to print. As a color (top down design or whatever you want to call it), red is all about being aggressive and creating chaos. This means cheap, efficient spells (i.e. Goblin Guide and Lightning Bolt). There's noting wrong with those cards (or their design)...until you give everyone at the table 40 life and a 99 card pile where the average body is 5/5 and at least 2 of the cards somehow wipe the board. If you want to stay true to the "flavor" of red, you're essentially left with cards that create chaos. In that context, Scrambleverse is awesome.

For players like you and I that spend some portion of our time reading legacy boards and playing semi-competitive magic building a chaos deck with dregs like Scrambleverse is the last thing we would ever do when a card like Cyclonic Rift exists. But you can bet that somebody somewhere windmill slammed that thing into their deck, and they're ecstatic that it was printed.

You have to remember that the design team doesn't sit down and say "hm, I wonder what effect this has on that Azami EDH deck people play?" or "A 2/2 with haste for R seems ok, but we should try to make it playable in EDH" as they make cards, and they never will. Does it suck for the guy trying to play Boros? Absolutely, but banning something else from the guy playing Simic isn't going to make that any better.

Indeed.

It really depends on which aspects of Red you're talking about too, and what the rest of the table is willing to tolerate. For example -- if the table has no problem with LD or mass destruction of any kind, there are a whole host of Red effects that can and should be played. (honorable mention here going to Blasphemous Act - no it is not a 'destroy' effect but 13 damage to all the things is nothing to sneeze at even in Commander.)

There are a buttload of X-spells in Red which jump over the Lightning Bolt gap and end up being pretty savage regardless of whether or not you're involving them in a "combo piece" or not.

And also there are a few non-X, non-cheap Red spells worth playing. Insurrection wins games. Reiterate + buyback is probably one of my favorite responses to Cyclonic Rift. Vandalblast can be a huuuuuge blowout. And so on.

So yeah, Goblin Guide is a bit pants in EDH, but then so is Wild Nacatl.

[Koby]

I have a soft spot for Warp World in EDh, but since every other deck is Blue and runs unlimited counterspells, it never resolves. I absolutely love that Warp World punishes spell-based decks and favors Green and Red based decks due to their "board presence" advantage. Alas, EDH is imbalanced, and Sylvan Primordial banned is not going to change a damn thing.

[TsumiBand]

I have a soft spot for Warp World in EDh, but since every other deck is Blue and runs unlimited counterspells, it never resolves. I absolutely love that Warp World punishes spell-based decks and favors Green and Red based decks due to their "board presence" advantage. Alas, EDH is imbalanced, and Sylvan Primordial banned is not going to change a damn thing.

Who are these brave souls playing enough countermagic in EDH that you can't resolve Warp World on the regular? There's a guy here in town who rocks a deck with some figurehead RGU Commander, but typically he calls Warp World the deck's "commander". Goddamn thing is consistent as hell; turn 3-4 Warp World typically, after accelerating into a bevy of permanents that create tokens, which summarily flip over more creatures/permanents that create tokens, so he profits pretty majorly while the rest of us invariably suffer a net loss of cards on the table. I don't think I've ever seen him cast Warp World later than turn 4 unless it's his second go-round.

Man if a couple counters is all it takes, I fucking need a goddamn fucking U/x commander fucking stat. The only thing I have lying around is Melek, and that's… not exactly amaze-balls for countermagic. Though it would scare plebes to see like Double Negative eternally resting on top of my deck. "I I I I… can't ever cast anything"

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Wizards seriously needs to take the reigns on this format. Let the Sheldon and friends still be leading it, but keep them in check. A part of me is pretty glad I never got into EDH.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Red is never going to be a strong color in this format, no matter what WotC decides to print.

Well, yeah. There's 20+ years of Blue/Green/Black mistakes for Red/White to ever be expected to catch up. I can deal with the fact that, say, Jaya or Lin Sivvi are never going to approach top-tier status as far as generals go. However, it would be nice if Wizards thought a little bit about what they printed to not further exacerbate power inequalities between the "Have" and "Have-Not" colors.


(top down design or whatever you want to call it)

When I bitch about "top-down-design", I'm kvetching about how following that sort of process seems to always result in stupid Blue cards that crap all over the gameplay part of the color pie. When flavor dictates mechanics it isn't much of a surprise that the color with dominion over the mind, perception, transformation, time, etc. can basically be justified to do anything.

XCC
Sorcery

Exile X target creatures


That doesn't sound like the beginnings of a Blue card. But because of the magic of flavor, BAM! Curse of Swine just happened. Yeah, the targeted creatures "become" 2/2s, so it isn't a straight kill-spell...but in gameplay terms it pretty much is, especially in EDH where a 2/2 is laughable. Sorry I killed your 26/26 murderbeast but look on the bright side...bacon!

Or what about Omniscience? Playing everything for free is Blue because, uh, the mind! Yeah, that's the ticket. Blue's all about the mind, and being all knowing is, like, totally Blue! Never mind that Green/Red/Black all are much more invested in mana shenanigans or alternate costs.

Really becomes annoying, seeing as Red/White are never the beneficiaries of such flavor-driven designs.


If you want to stay true to the "flavor" of red, you're essentially left with cards that create chaos. In that context, Scrambleverse is awesome.

Red has a lot more to it than just chaos and aggro...or at least it should. Red is the color of passion, artistic vision, and other qualities. Rarely are these every represented mechanically. Red is also supposed to be close to Blue when it comes to interacting with Instants/Sorceries...yet seldom do we see powerful effects regarding this.

Wizards understood when Green was in a bad place, was one-dimensional, and boring. They then undertook the project of building it into something good. Now it's definitely a top two color in EDH and might even be number two in Legacy. Pretty impressive. It seems like the main thing holding them back from doing this for Red is the fact that every Standard season some strain of RDW/Sligh is placing...so obviously Red needs zero work. Plus, that's work which could be better spent designing Jace 5.0!


But you can bet that somebody somewhere windmill slammed that thing into their deck, and they're ecstatic that it was printed.

Yeah, I know, MaRo's spiel 'bout bad rares and whatnot applies here. But it kind of sucks that in a game with five colors that many formats effectively exclude one or more from higher levels of play.


but banning something else from the guy playing Simic isn't going to make that any better.

Actually, removing a ton of Blue and/or Green cards would probably make the format better for everyone.

[Davran]

Well, yeah. There's 20+ years of Blue/Green/Black mistakes for Red/White to ever be expected to catch up. I can deal with the fact that, say, Jaya or Lin Sivvi are never going to approach top-tier status as far as generals go. However, it would be nice if Wizards thought a little bit about what they printed to not further exacerbate power inequalities between the "Have" and "Have-Not" colors.

Personally, I would argue that red and white cards have never been better. Shit like Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite were obviously made with this format in mind (regardless of their fringe play elsewhere). Molten Primordial is excellent in red decks, as are the "junkier" cards like Utvara Hellkite. The stuff is definitely out there if you want to find it.

If I may, I think the main issue you have is that some random Big Fat Dragon will never stack up against whatever the latest Unsummon variant is. To be fair though, it's always been that way.


Or what about Omniscience? Playing everything for free is Blue because, uh, the mind! Yeah, that's the ticket. Blue's all about the mind, and being all knowing is, like, totally Blue! Never mind that Green/Red/Black all are much more invested in mana shenanigans or alternate costs.

Omniscience is a stupid card that should not exist. I agree with that 100%. I also agree that if we're in the business of banning cards for being "too good" a cast all your shit for free forever enchantment should be at the top of the list, or if it isn't analog spells like Channel and Metalworker should be off of it. No one has ever cast Omniscience with "fair" intentions, which is not something you can say for other recent bannings.

[TsumiBand]

Well the problem is that good red/white cards are "dick moves" in a different way from UG stuff, apparently. I think this is just an artifact of perception, but it's hard to quantify.

It's more of that "let the broken players have Blue stuff" mentality. Omniscience is a card so that someone somewhere can 'be that guy' because certain tables don't have a problem with 'that guy' because they are all 'that guy', and *obviously* those guys just want to play Blue. Meanwhile, Timmy's Boros deck has an Avacyn in it that no one can handle because the group has a local ban on land destruction and tuck effects because no one "has any fun" if their general gets thrown into the library, so Avacyn hits and suddenly everyone's terrible spot removal and 5cc Giant Growth effects are no good, and they go "boooooooooo, zomg b& b& b& ban this card I can't believe this fuck"

So of course Omniscience and DEN and a host of Blue garbage is fine, because why else would any Spike want a different color -- let them have their borken cards, but when things break for middling and low-end tables with an overabundance of house rules, they perceive a busted card, cry foul, and instead of handling their own distorted format they start yet another thread on mtgcommander.hurp about getting rid of the offending card.

There's an interview with Sheldon M. from like 2009 on YouTube that goes over his intent with the banlist, which is basically to establish how random PUGs should handle EDH. So to that extent, it may as well be 'official' for someone like me, who has no regular playgroup and has to endure the random attendants at the LGS. I'm not QQing, but it just blows when something that was a decent control card at all levels -- but was of course still subject to the same broken tricks as any Blink effects or turn 2 Natural Order (not that Blink effects or Natural Order was ever the real problem, nope can't be that) -- gets axed because dedicated local groups refused to just govern themselves.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Artifact of Perception :4:
Artifact
Artifact of Perception is hard to quantify.
Good :r:/:w: cards are "dick moves" in a different way from :u:/:g: stuff.
"Let the broken players have blue stuff." - Jace Beleren

Red/White has the tools to be highly competitive. Unfortunately using them is generally frowned upon by the larger *casual* EDH community and it takes a specific type of player to want to use them. A guy at my LGS has a Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer deck that is mana rocks and Armageddon effects. It is very good at preying upon the non-basic land meta here.

Ramping lands and playing fatties, or drawing cards and blinking for value appeals to a wide swath of the EDH player base. Destroying all lands and keeping your opponents out of the game appeals to a much smaller portion of the community (and is generally poorly received). Most attempts I've seen at Boros EDH is "extra attacks" or "voltron". These decks get blown out by a board wipe or can't generate card advantage to be relevant in the late game. They exclude the cards that would win them the game because they are labeled "unfun".

If they made Sylvan Primordial red (and search for Mountains), would it have gotten banned? It is kind of a neat thought experiment... I know many do not believe Sylvan was strong enough to be banned in the first place, but going with the assumption that it is, is the strength of the card diminished if it was printed in :r:,:w:, or :b:?

[TsumiBand]

Artifact of Perception :4:
Artifact
Artifact of Perception is hard to quantify.
Good :r:/:w: cards are "dick moves" in a different way from :u:/:g: stuff.
"Let the broken players have blue stuff." - Jace Beleren

Red/White has the tools to be highly competitive. Unfortunately using them is generally frowned upon by the larger *casual* EDH community and it takes a specific type of player to want to use them. A guy at my LGS has a Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer deck that is mana rocks and Armageddon effects. It is very good at preying upon the non-basic land meta here.

Ramping lands and playing fatties, or drawing cards and blinking for value appeals to a wide swath of the EDH player base. Destroying all lands and keeping your opponents out of the game appeals to a much smaller portion of the community (and is generally poorly received). Most attempts I've seen at Boros EDH is "extra attacks" or "voltron". These decks get blown out by a board wipe or can't generate card advantage to be relevant in the late game. They exclude the cards that would win them the game because they are labeled "unfun".

If they made Sylvan Primordial red (and search for Mountains), would it have gotten banned? It is kind of a neat thought experiment... I know many do not believe Sylvan was strong enough to be banned in the first place, but going with the assumption that it is, is the strength of the card diminished if it was printed in :r:,:w:, or :b:?

10/10, would read again

I particularly like the colorshifted thought experiment. In a world where cards are correctly colorshifted (or as correctly as can be shifted, anyway), would they still be perceived as problematic? We do this regularly with cards like Delver of Secrets and Flashback Guy That I Can't Think Of His Name Right Now, always wondering what the state of Legacy would be if they were placed in Red; but the bar for bannings is a lot higher in Legacy, and we don't typically think of cards this way if they are on the banlist. But I think that EDH is a good place to ask this question, in particular because of the Artifact of Perception Effect -- the APE. Let it henceforth be referred to as such. "Wow, Woodfall Primus is banned? Must be the APE."

I might just be an anomalous EDH player, because as much as I want to play thematically interesting and sound decks that can actually End The Game, the last time I played against a friend's Oloro Stax deck it was all I could do to keep from laughing the whole time. Precisely because I knew that no one else was prepared for it, and yeah it was totally dicking me too, but it was hilarious to see it work against the guys at the table that couldn't figure out why no-synergy.rith and friends weren't able to actually play anything that mattered.

[Davran]

I might just be an anomalous EDH player, because as much as I want to play thematically interesting and sound decks that can actually End The Game, the last time I played against a friend's Oloro Stax deck it was all I could do to keep from laughing the whole time. Precisely because I knew that no one else was prepared for it, and yeah it was totally dicking me too, but it was hilarious to see it work against the guys at the table that couldn't figure out why no-synergy.rith and friends weren't able to actually play anything that mattered.

This is what EDH should be. Who the hell cares if you're losing as long as you're having fun? Instead let's ban anything that anyone ever won a game with in a way we didn't find appropriate. That'll show 'em to win games with magic cards.

[Offler]

^this exactly.

On the other hand if you see exactly same cards in totally different decks, you might get suspicious about that card.

[Aggro_zombies]

I particularly like the colorshifted thought experiment. In a world where cards are correctly colorshifted (or as correctly as can be shifted, anyway), would they still be perceived as problematic? We do this regularly with cards like Delver of Secrets and Flashback Guy That I Can't Think Of His Name Right Now, always wondering what the state of Legacy would be if they were placed in Red; but the bar for bannings is a lot higher in Legacy, and we don't typically think of cards this way if they are on the banlist. But I think that EDH is a good place to ask this question, in particular because of the Artifact of Perception Effect -- the APE. Let it henceforth be referred to as such. "Wow, Woodfall Primus is banned? Must be the APE."
Sylvan Primordial would get played in almost every red deck ever if only because it destroys enchantments, and that's something red is sorely lacking the ability to do.

However, one wrinkle in this thought experiment is that not all colors are equally popular. The effect of Sylvan Primordial - blow up three lands (or sometimes nonlands), ramp - is powerful in the abstract. It would be less oppressive in white, red, or black if only because white, red, and black seem to show up less often than green. Actually, it would still be oppressive in black, since it's now in the same color as efficient tutors and reanimation spells and it makes Coffers gross early in the game.

[TsumiBand]

Sylvan Primordial would get played in almost every red deck ever if only because it destroys enchantments, and that's something red is sorely lacking the ability to do.

However, one wrinkle in this thought experiment is that not all colors are equally popular. The effect of Sylvan Primordial - blow up three lands (or sometimes nonlands), ramp - is powerful in the abstract. It would be less oppressive in white, red, or black if only because white, red, and black seem to show up less often than green. Actually, it would still be oppressive in black, since it's now in the same color as efficient tutors and reanimation spells and it makes Coffers gross early in the game.

Well I think the popularity of colors is tied into the APE, right -- when some of the best WR effects are frowned on because they destroy all the things and you're 'strongly socially encouraged' to play Tier 2 effects in those colors, then of course they would appear less potent and thus slide in popularity. I would consider this a side-effect of the problem; strong RW plays are perceived as a violation of the spirit of the format, whereas broken UG things are more easily accepted up the chain. "Of course it's broken, it's Blue" is actually counter-productive here, because it's being used to permit plays on a level that are fundamentally much, much more powerful than Armageddon.

I enjoy EDH, but there are times when it is a scary example of what happens when casuals that don't bother to learn the finer points of the game are catered to.

As for whether or not the 'most right' colorshift for SP would be Red -- honestly, I think that where a card would land is less important than asking -- IF this card were in any other color, would it still be tolerable? It should not be the end-all, be-all of the discussion, but it seems like a fair thought experiment to help inform one's decision as to whether or not the effect itself is just intolerable. The card's ubiquity is not an independent variable; of course "Big Green" is viable in a format where people start cutting if the table lets Impending Disaster wheel; address the root issue, not a mitigating circumstance.

Perhaps it's asking too much, but honestly if you're going to start self-moderating, you have to be willing to entertain changes in the metagame which allow cards to return to your format. If more groups would re-examine the effects they permit on, like, a 6-month basis or whatever, like maybe they would find that allowing Geddon and friends to hold Green Giant at bay means that more interesting things on a lower curve start showing up. Every once in a while we have these same "what-ifs" in Legacy, where people test their Necropotence / Hermit Druid / Windfall "what-if" list to see if hate has evolved to a place where that card can and should come off the banned list. Whether or not it does is another story, but at least the concept is being regularly challenged.

[phonics]

EDH: You are either trying to do broken ass stuff or you are trying to stop your opponents from doing broken ass stuff.

[FTW]

Mana Crypt is legal, but a 7 mana green creature is banned.

Ya... OK - this format is a joke.

EDIT: I didn't just come in here to say EDH is a casual only format. But rather, that the perceived threat of Sylvan Primordial is somehow more important to ban than the best accelerator in the format. I don't think I've ever encountered a game in which I led with Mana Crypt and did not win (in 1v1 play).

Mana Crypt has been banned for ages in 1v1 play. If you play 1v1 EDH with a competitively-built deck but follow the multiplayer EDH banlist instead of the 1v1 banlist (either French or MTGS), then you're just being a dick. The 1v1 list bans cards like Mana Crypt but not cards like Prime Time and Sylvan for the very reasons you describe. The aforementioned banning is for multiplayer.

Also, power level can be relative to number of players. Games with many players take longer, making it much easier to cast a 7-mana fatty. Even if it dies immediately, a resolved Sylvan generates +6 cards in a 4-player pod. That's a lot of card advantage to tack onto a big body. Although I think Sylvan is really abusive because multiplayer EDH attracts "big bomby" decks and Sylvan makes those matchups very very asymmetrical: you simultaneously ramp into your bombs while stopping opponents from ramping into theirs.

IMO Prime Time was banned more because you can do stupid things like tutor Wasteland + Strip Mine with Crucible out in your Azusa deck and then triple Striplock people FTquit. Or grab Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Temple/Gaea's Cradle and drop Eldrazi for the next 2-3 turns. Or Cabal Coffers + Urborg. Or Inkmoth Nexus + Pendelhaven. Or Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage. Or whatever. You can even grab Yavimaya's Hollow to regenerate it from future Wrath effects or Volrath's Stronghold to reuse it. In a format where people often maindeck Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying and friends, tutoring for 2 nonbasic lands a turn is crazy.

[FTW]

Sylvan Primordial would get played in almost every red deck ever if only because it destroys enchantments, and that's something red is sorely lacking the ability to do.

However, one wrinkle in this thought experiment is that not all colors are equally popular. The effect of Sylvan Primordial - blow up three lands (or sometimes nonlands), ramp - is powerful in the abstract. It would be less oppressive in white, red, or black if only because white, red, and black seem to show up less often than green. Actually, it would still be oppressive in black, since it's now in the same color as efficient tutors and reanimation spells and it makes Coffers gross early in the game.

I think it would be a lot less oppressive in red and white because those colors have a harder time ramping out fatties (Assuming it wasn't printed as an Angel, Demon or Dragon). 7-mana red and white creatures generally don't scare the pants off people no matter how powerful they are. Green can T2 Natural Order* or GSZ into it or just plain ramp into it. I think it would be pretty abusive in black too with all of black's tutoring and reanimation.

*I once cast Natural Order on turn 1. It was a bit convoluted, involving Mana Crypt, Sol Ring and Azusa as commander. But still!
Needless to say I was so excited I could do it I didn't stop to think I was at a loss for tutor targets... Terastodon and Sylvan Primordial are backbreaking early game but not when opponents have ZERO lands. Oops. Grabbed Vorinclex instead and they still quit.

[TsumiBand]

Mana Crypt has been banned for ages in 1v1 play. If you play 1v1 EDH with a competitively-built deck but follow the multiplayer EDH banlist instead of the 1v1 banlist (either French or MTGS), then you're just being a dick. The 1v1 list bans cards like Mana Crypt but not cards like Prime Time and Sylvan for the very reasons you describe. The aforementioned banning is for multiplayer.

Also, power level can be relative to number of players. Games with many players take longer, making it much easier to cast a 7-mana fatty. Even if it dies immediately, a resolved Sylvan generates +6 cards in a 4-player pod. That's a lot of card advantage to tack onto a big body. Although I think Sylvan is really abusive because multiplayer EDH attracts "big bomby" decks and Sylvan makes those matchups very very asymmetrical: you simultaneously ramp into your bombs while stopping opponents from ramping into theirs.

IMO Prime Time was banned more because you can do stupid things like tutor Wasteland + Strip Mine with Crucible out in your Azusa deck and then triple Striplock people FTquit. Or grab Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Temple/Gaea's Cradle and drop Eldrazi for the next 2-3 turns. Or Cabal Coffers + Urborg. Or Inkmoth Nexus + Pendelhaven. Or Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage. Or whatever. You can even grab Yavimaya's Hollow to regenerate it from future Wrath effects or Volrath's Stronghold to reuse it. In a format where people often maindeck Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying and friends, tutoring for 2 nonbasic lands a turn is crazy.

Your Prime-Time example brings up an interesting parallel between PT and, say, Tooth and Nail. There are a fuck-billion ways to just end the game with T&N, or Victimize, or anything that puts two permanents into play from an accessible zone. Because PT does it "on a stick" I can see why it would get axed, but in this format of 2-card hyper combo finishes, there should be a very critical eye hanging over any effect that can selectively* put multiple cards with different text into one zone from another one.

On a more relevant note though, has this idea ever been floated… has anyone ever suggested different banlists for higher player-count games?

Like say 1v1 follows French, up to 3v3 follows "List A", 4v4+ follows "List B" and so on. When Sylvan Primordial crushes six opponents for six Forest cards and creates a 12-card swing without actually Wrathing the board, I can understand it being nothing but trouble. But really, in a 4v4 game, I have seen lots of people cast it and go on to fail. Shit, I took a bitch out on principle because he was playing like Mimeoplasm or whatever and kept blowing up all my Vernal Bloom/Mana Echoes/all the mana-doubling things in my Wort TRM deck -- twice with Sylvan Primordial IIRC -- and really for no reason at all, as the other players at the table were representing far bigger threats than I had been. So I went in big; I overextended into a bunch of hasty guys and alpha'd his dumb-ass out first, and then proceeding to systematically eliminate the rest of the table. IIRC it was a 5v5 game at that, so the rule of "Who's Scariest Third" went right out the winda.

I mean I hate to suggest more complexity instead of less, but really there are so many cards that naturally scale in this fashion anyway -- the very multi-friendly Syphon Mind/Soul cards only get better with more players, however in a 4v4 matchup they are terrible topdecks late in the game so they don't really scale well. And as illustrated, things like Sundering Titan, Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, etc… more players = moar cards = moar swingy blowouts. Like when someone cashes in a ton of Risk cards at the end of the game after they've effectively lost; in my experience this rarely changes the winner of the game, it just slows things waaaay down and turns a decisive win into a limping game state.

* - ffft no I don't mean like Brainstorm or Inspiration or that dumb stuff. Selectively roughly meaning "as a tutor" not "as a draw spell". So, you might Brainstorm and whiff, however you don't T&N for two randoms, you get Thing One and Thing Two and then you wreck Dakota Fanning's fucking house with them.

[FTW]

Because PT does it "on a stick" I can see why it would get axed, but in this format of 2-card hyper combo finishes, there should be a very critical eye hanging over any effect that can selectively* put multiple cards with different text into one zone from another one.

Fair points.

I guess selectivity is a restriction, but I'd argue that
a) repeatability
b) ease of use
combined both overpower the selectivity, at least in the case of Prime Time.

Why Survival of the Fittest is more abusive than Diabolic Tutor.

Green creatures are remarkably easy to cheat onto the battlefield, easier to tutor for and protect in green decks than a sorcery. ETB triggers can be repeated and abused in a number of ways, and it has its own built in reusing trigger. All in all, it's much easier to get PrimeTime off than to resolve a Tooth and Nail. So yes, T&N is obviously more backbreaking when resolved, but PrimeTime represents a more consistent engine IMO.

One of my favorite (and cheapest) commander decks was Azusa ramp. At first, the main win conditions were Cloudstone Curio+Aluren infinite combos, other mana combos+tokens, and massive Genesis Waves. But soon the main plan became T2-T4 Prime Time FTW, usually via Eldrazi or manascrewing people. Either way, the early PrimeTime from the ramp deck tended to draw all sorts of groans.

When that got the axe, I shifted to a Sylvan Primordial plan. Previously, if I was lucky enough to T2-3 Natural Order, I would go for Terastodon and piss everyone off by blowing up lands and attacking with a fatty. But at least they got elephants. With Sylvan Primordial printed, I could instead blow up a key land from each of them AND ramp myself a hell of a lot AND not give them elephant tokens. Seems good.

I would support separate banlists depending on group size. A 3-player EDH game is very different from a 7-player EDH game.