UGR/RUG Delver doing poorly/Canadian Threshold

[Finn]

http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?format=Legacy

There are very few decks posted for this January, and it is still two weeks before Nihil updates the DTB section with his version for the month. But January is over and Canadian looks as weak as I have ever seen it since GP: Flash. It's like 12th. Frankly, even the numbers for December were a little weak, at 3rd. It has rarely slipped below 2nd in the past. Is there still insufficient data to pronounce this? Cuz I gotta tell ya, I have played RUG a few times against Trueblade, and it is stupid how dead you are to a resolved TNN. No matter what I say, this thread will devolve into a discussion on TNN, but I am interested in what this means for red.

Obv, red can not deal well with much of any combo decks. But now, it also looks like red is a dead fish to the dominant aggro decks too. It can't race them or disable them. So, what does red have going for it? What would wotc have to print to make it relevant again?

[Arsenal]

Red has always been a support color in Legacy. It still remains a great support color, but SFM-TNN is just better than Mongoose-Goyf right now, so that's why Patriot has replaced RUG in that slot. If you're asking what Wizards needs to do to make Red a great primary color... undo 20+ years of Magic and start over from the beginning (serious).

[Megadeus]

Red gives you reach and red blasts to beat blue out of the board...

I think the better question is, Goyf/Goose vs. TNN and SFM.

[Zombie]

A few RUG players seem to be adopting TNN and having more success with that. Color me surprised.

[BKclassic]

A Deathrite Shaman in RUG colors would be pretty sweet.

[Lemnear]

A Deathrite Shaman in RUG colors would be pretty sweet.

With DRS/Delver/TNN you are right where my current Tempo deck is :)

The Problem is that Goofy & Geese are dead to RIP, TNN and seriously annoyed my opponents DRS. The only way to break the game open is running TNN yourself (drop earlier than opponent with your tempo suit or run tombstalker/SFM

[Tormod]

Has anyone checked the price of Volcanic Island lately?

Bolts is doing a lot of work in Legacy these days.

[Arsenal]

Has anyone checked the price of Volcanic Island lately?

Bolts is doing a lot of work in Legacy these days.

Because of Patriot, not RUG Delver.

[aluisiocsantos]

I don't think the red color has to do with it, but any blue deck right now is trying to fit TNN in it's package. It's just that good - and somewhat as answerable as answering to a combo deck - you either have a counter or sac effect/or prepare your sideboard just to answer to it, with stuff such as -1/-1 effects, or you're going to die.

Yes, I'm blaming TNN, what has changed in Legacy in the past months apart of Commander 2013?

[Megadeus]

Because of Patriot, not RUG Delver.

And sneak and show. And Storm plays it (albeit as a 1 of). And UR Delver. A lot of decently played decks play Volcanics

[Tormod]

Because of Patriot, not RUG Delver.

Last time I checked, both decks ran "Red"

[Arsenal]

Last time I checked, both decks ran "Red"

Sure, but RUG Delver is on the decline while Patriot is #1 by a lot. You don't have both decks doing well, only 1. So it stands to reason that Bolts are doing work in the #1 deck, not the #12 deck.

[from Cairo]

So, what does red have going for it? What would wotc have to print to make it relevant again?

I think Red has had the same ~dozen relevant cards in Legacy for years now. Lightning Bolt, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Grim Lavamancer, Chain Lightning, Pyroclasm, Blood Moon, Sneak Attack, Pyroclasm, Price of Progress, Goblin Guide - that's 11, I'm probably forgetting something obvious, so I will leave that blank to be filled in.

If the question is what does RUG/Can. Thresh need to upstage Patriot? Probably something UG/GR based that puts up a fight against SFM/TNN - if it's UR it probably just is better played in Patriot. Currently the tempo advantage of RUG is overpowered in a similar shell with a stronger mid/long game plan.

[lavafrogg]

I don't think RUG is doing that bad, it is just that there is a new , fancier, tempo deck on the block and everyone wants to play it. Especially with pros playing patriot right now. RUG will do just give, like it always has.

[DragoFireheart]

Called it way back that TNN would end RUG. There is literally nothing they can do once it resolves.

Was wrong about it making Merfolk viable again. Ah well.


I think Red has had the same ~dozen relevant cards in Legacy for years now. Lightning Bolt, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Grim Lavamancer, Chain Lightning, Pyroclasm, Blood Moon, Sneak Attack, Pyroclasm, Price of Progress, Goblin Guide - that's 11, I'm probably forgetting something obvious, so I will leave that blank to be filled in.


Sulfur Elemental

[twndomn]

http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?format=Legacy
There are very few decks posted for this January, and it is still two weeks before Nihil updates the DTB section with his version for the month. But January is over and Canadian looks as weak as I have ever seen it since GP: Flash. It's like 12th. Frankly, even the numbers for December were a little weak, at 3rd. It has rarely slipped below 2nd in the past. Is there still insufficient data to pronounce this? Cuz I gotta tell ya, I have played RUG a few times against Trueblade, and it is stupid how dead you are to a resolved TNN. No matter what I say, this thread will devolve into a discussion on TNN, but I am interested in what this means for red.


I hate this kind of post, it's unscientific and it has no value.

If you want to make claim on the Meta of Legacy, do it the right way: http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2014/01/hope-eternal-true-meta-analysis/

[Serbitar]

TNN is to blame. You're just dead if that ever resolves. Red Cards are fine in principle. The problem is more that the green cards (Goyf/Goose) are not too well positioned. And the evasive alternatives (Clique, TNN, Tombstalker) cost too much to keep the 14 lands, virtually all 1 drops theme.

I think traditional RUG would need a Spell Pierce for creatures – not holding my breath for that though.

[PirateKing]

I think traditional RUG would need a Spell Pierce for creatures – not holding my breath for that though.

I think the answer is a Pyroclasm for 1 that can't be prevented. Instant would be amazing but Sorcery is fine too.

[Megadeus]

Just play Flying Men. Fly over those dumb TNNs. Or RUG could run Silklash Spiders for the lulz

[jamis]

I think the answer is a Pyroclasm for 1 that can't be prevented. Instant would be amazing but Sorcery is fine too.
Pyroclasm can't hit TNN.

Edit:

That is why he said "Can't be prevented". Gets around protection.
Okay, nevermind

[Megadeus]

Pyroclasm can't hit TNN.

That is why he said "Can't be prevented". Gets around protection.

[ESG]

I don't think RUG is doing that bad, it is just that there is a new , fancier, tempo deck on the block and everyone wants to play it. Especially with pros playing patriot right now.

This is laughably false. A lot of people DON'T want to play TNN, but they are coming to the realization that it puts up better results, so TNN decks are replacing non-TNN decks. You think pros play whatever random deck they feel like jamming? No, they play what they feel will give them the best chance to win a tournament. Even inveterate non-blue players like Jim Davis are switching over out of necessity.

Also, how does it add anything to say, "I don't think RUG is doing that bad," when the results indicate the opposite? Data vs. one dude's opinion. Hmmm.

[Tammit67]

The Problem is that Goofy & Geese are dead to RIP, TNN and seriously annoyed my opponents DRS.

On Rest in Peace: Stifle does work against this card, as does spell pierce and spell snare (A card sneaking its way back into lists). Those suggestions aside, nimble mongoose beats for 1 can get there against such a durdly deck like miracles. If we are talking death and taxes, it was unrealistic to consider the ground game to go RUG's favor anyway and the matchup hinged on other aspects.

On TNN: See below

On DRS: The hardest part of DRS to beat was the increased mana production. The GY mitigation was annoying some games and irrelevant others. The velocity of the deck provided enough answers by either killing it quickly or adding too many cards for it to handle. The real issue was when the opponent accelerated into daze proof goyfs, liliana, or found mana to abrupt decay while advancing board position. A valid point, but not one that kills RUG


Called it way back that TNN would end RUG. There is literally nothing they can do once it resolves.

This is a new definition of literally I'm not aware of. Find a second goyf, find multiple creatures and swing, red burn over the top, delver of secrets.

And most importantly, prioritizing not letting it resolve, let alone equipped. It's not show and tell, a card an entire deck is built around resolving through RUG's plethora of answers. It's a 3/1 pro you creature that is vulnerable to swarms and mana denial and red blasts when on the stack, out of a deck that requires more mana in general than RUG. And even then it still needs equipment to live up to the hype, since it sure as hell isn't racing goyf.

RUG is fine, there are just more 'free wins' in the other deck.

[from Cairo]

There is literally nothing they can do once it resolves.

This is a new definition of literally I'm not aware of.

Apparently, yes.


lit·er·al·ly
adverb \ˈli-tə-rə-lē, ˈli-trə-lē, ˈli-tər-lē\
Definition of LITERALLY
1: in a literal sense or manner : actually <took the remark literally> <was literally insane>
2: in effect : virtually <will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice — Norman Cousins>

Articles about this change.

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/literally-definition-changes-google/2013/08/15/id/520619
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/according_to_the_dictionary_literally_now_also_means_figuratively_newscred/

:rolleyes:

[Arsenal]

RUG is fine, there are just more 'free wins' in the other deck.

If there are more free wins in Patriot and RUG is seeing a significant decline in tourney results, I'm not understanding how RUG is "fine". It's slipping into irrelevancy due to the raw power of SFM-TNN being better than the vast majority of other fair decks right now.

[Tammit67]

If there are more free wins in Patriot and RUG is seeing a significant decline in tourney results, I'm not understanding how RUG is "fine". It's slipping into irrelevancy due to the raw power of SFM-TNN being better than the vast majority of other fair decks right now.

Just because it isn't posting half the top 8 doesn't make it irrelevant. The last two SCGs have had it in the top 16. It is still a good deck and accomplished pilots can still do well with it. It's share of the meta is being eaten away by those that switched to UWR.

The deck needs to adapt, either by running snare to combat the SFM into true name line of play or rely heavily on blasts to get the job done. That's all.

[Arsenal]

Just because it isn't posting half the top 8 doesn't make it irrelevant. The last two SCGs have had it in the top 16. It is still a good deck and accomplished pilots can still do well with it. It's share of the meta is being eaten away by those that switched to UWR.

The deck needs to adapt, either by running snare to combat the SFM into true name line of play or rely heavily on blasts to get the job done. That's all.

It's not currently irrelevant, but if this trend continues (hence, the word "slipping"), it will be. I agree that it is still a good deck able to Top 16 SCG Opens by competent pilots... but so are lots of tier 2 decks. Heck, Lands just won the most recent SCG Open.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Canadian Threshold (now known as RUG Delver) has been good, even dominating, since before 2008, when I was playing it. I played just prior to the release of goyf, then for a few months after goyf rose to the top. People called for its ban. It's price wiggled all over the charts. Now it's a powerful staple, and for those many years, it was king. It so far has lived longer than any other so-called king of the format. All things must come to an end. Inevitability tells us that power creep is real. Eventually, something will overshadow even TNN. Storm is even being outclassed by S&T. Things change. Don't be afraid of change. Embrace it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[HSCK]

It's not currently irrelevant, but if this trend continues (hence, the word "slipping"), it will be. I agree that it is still a good deck able to Top 16 SCG Opens by competent pilots... but so are lots of tier 2 decks. Heck, Lands just won the most recent SCG Open.

But winning 32 person tourneys is definitely more relevant...?

RUG's going through an adjustment phase, it can still have good weeks when people get too greedy.

[Zombie]

Canadian Threshold (now known as RUG Delver) has been good, even dominating, since before 2008, when I was playing it. I played just prior to the release of goyf, then for a few months after goyf rose to the top. People called for its ban. It's price wiggled all over the charts. Now it's a powerful staple, and for those many years, it was king. It so far has lived longer than any other so-called king of the format. All things must come to an end. Inevitability tells us that power creep is real. Eventually, something will overshadow even TNN. Storm is even being outclassed by S&T. Things change. Don't be afraid of change. Embrace it.

But the change is for shittier and shittier gameplay? I mean, SnT=>Oh lol Griseltard and TNN wow exciting combat phase. Or Storm combo outside a couple nut draws? Or RUG/Shardless? No thanks.

[Arsenal]

But winning 32 person tourneys is definitely more relevant...?

RUG's going through an adjustment phase, it can still have good weeks when people get too greedy.

Because you've obviously forgotten the bitch slapping you received earlier, here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post787935.

Also, I like how you people claim that non-TNN fair decks are just adjusting/in flux/figuring it out, when really, they're just dying. Happened with Maverick, happened with Jund, happened with Miracles, happened with Shardless BUG, possibly happening with RUG Delver. Data doesn't lie... unless you insist on using cherry picked data from US-only tourneys that represents a small percentage of what's actually going on in Legacy, then it actually does.

[Megadeus]

Hasn't happened to Elves, TA, or Death and Taxes

[DragoFireheart]

Hasn't happened to Elves, TA, or Death and Taxes

Elves can combo and not give a shit, TA has fliers and crazy disruption (Discard, Counters, and Wasteland, oh my!) and Death and Taxes is the primer blue-hate deck.

[Zombie]

Hasn't happened to Elves, TA, or Death and Taxes

Elves is pretty damn far from being fair, though.


Elves can combo and not give a shit, TA has fliers and crazy disruption (Discard, Counters, and Wasteland, oh my!) and Death and Taxes is the primer blue-hate deck.

Hating blue isn't really the important thing. Flying is.

[HSCK]

Because you've obviously forgotten the bitch slapping you received earlier, here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post787935.

Also, I like how you people claim that non-TNN fair decks are just adjusting/in flux/figuring it out, when really, they're just dying. Happened with Maverick, happened with Jund, happened with Miracles, happened with Shardless BUG, possibly happening with RUG Delver. Data doesn't lie... unless you insist on using cherry picked data from US-only tourneys that represents a small percentage of what's actually going on in Legacy, then it actually does.



404 not found, obviously that's what you use for data.

And small percentage? How many players vs. how many winning your Maverick metas? On any given week looking at results how many players are in those tournaments vs. how many at an Open? That's a small percentage right?

[Lt. Quattro]

It always sucks to see an OG die, but it will eventually happen to every deck.

http://www.playmuzikk.de/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Bone-Thugs-N-Harmony-Tha-Crossroads.jpg

See you at the crossroads Canadian Threshold. :frown:

[Arsenal]

404 not found, obviously that's what you use for data.

And small percentage? How many players vs. how many winning your Maverick metas? On any given week looking at results how many players are in those tournaments vs. how many at an Open? That's a small percentage right?

My bad, here you go: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation&p=787935&viewfull=1#post787935

Also, I use thecouncil, not Bob Huang's outdated and flawed data from November 1st, 2013.

You honestly believe that cherry picking a handful of SCG Opens gives you an accurate view of the overall Legacy meta. You have no grasp on how statistics work. Just stop talking about data, you have no clue what you're talking about.

[HSCK]

You want data fine, look at January, of the 217 decks:

8 tournaments with over 50 players on TC

8 more between 30-50

9 with under 30, 9! But if you look at the graphs what comes up?


It counts all the results as the same.

Why are you putting equal weight there?

Get as angry as you like, but your usage of data is insanely flawed.

[cheerios]

It's just funny how TNN has caused the meta to shift. Based on the top 10, it 's either you play black to answer TNN, play combo, play TNN, or play a deck that hates on both combo and blue. I think the last time we saw UGR thresh perform this bad was during the misstep era. Hopefully, the deck makes a quick recovery.

[Megadeus]

It's just funny how TNN has caused the meta to shift. Based on the top 10, it 's either you play black to answer TNN, play combo, play TNN, or play a deck that hates on both combo and blue. I think the last time we saw UGR thresh perform this bad was during the misstep era. Hopefully, the deck makes a quick recovery.

So like, how is that different from any other time then?

[cheerios]

So like, how is that different from any other time then?

LOL. RUG's current build just can't answer a resolved TNN. I'm not saying RUG doesn't have available answers tho.

[Megadeus]

Silklash Spider!!!

[Mewens]

Man, I'd wet myself if some Legacy brew playing Sylvan Basilisks and Silklash Spiders with Intruder Alarm and Tangleroot and Glimpse of Nature ended up being this insurmountable matchup for TNN.

It would literally be the single greatest thing ever. I'm counting electricity and sex in that equation.

[Erdvermampfa]

One thing that bothers me is that it would require a whole shift of their B&R policy to get TNN banned since other stuff like Show and Tell (Griselbrand) is way more detrimental to the health of the format but doesn't get the treatment it deserves (ban). I think ever since Misstep their policy has been one of cautious reservation because they believe Legacy could fix itself. And indeed, it managed to to do so for some time, but now with TNN and partly with Griselbrand, Ominiscience, EtI etc. the ridiculous shit started to take overhand and the game became more and more unenjoyable. I think we have to start to acknowledge that disproportional meta prevalence shouldn't be the sole reason to ban a card.

[Barook]

One thing that bothers me is that it would require a whole shift of their B&R policy to get TNN banned since other stuff like Show and Tell (Griselbrand) is way more detrimental to the health of the format but doesn't get the treatment it deserves (ban). I think ever since Misstep their policy has been one of cautious reservation because they believe Legacy could fix itself. And indeed, it managed to to do so for some time, but now with TNN and partly with Griselbrand, Ominiscience, EtI etc. the ridiculous shit started to take overhand and the game became more and more unenjoyable. I think we have to start to acknowledge that disproportional meta prevalence shouldn't be the sole reason to ban a card.
They have already laid the foundation before - here's a hint: "Gentleman's agreement"

TNN makes Magic an extremely miserable experience. Not that Griselbanned or Omniscience are any better. S&T is a pretty bad offender as well, but at least you can interact with your opponent at some level. Hell, I've recently beaten a game with D&T where my opponent had Omniscience and Griselbrand in play. Or a match against Patriot Delver - in G2, he didn't draw a single TNN and it was a fantastic, interactive and enjoyable 30+ minutes game while I died like a bitch in G3, simply because he jammed down double TNN.

The format would be alot more fun with TNN (and S&T) gone.

[twndomn]

They have already laid the foundation before - here's a hint: "Gentleman's agreement"

The format would be alot more fun with TNN (and S&T) gone.

While I understand your sentiment, I don't agree with the conclusion. Yes, S&T should be considered for the ban. No, TNN is not. The problem with TNN is that lots of Magic players, not necessarily Legacy players, would stop playing Legacy because they are facing the question: do you join the TNN-bandwagon or do you try to hate it? You have to prepare for it. Either your Legacy deck will ignore it because it's combo, or you have to address TNN somehow. That's Not what lots of Magic players in other format would want to do. I hate it when people've told me that they had their pet Legacy deck(s) and now they don't want to attend local Legacy events anymore because TNN.

[ajfennewald]

While I understand your sentiment, I don't agree with the conclusion. Yes, S&T should be considered for the ban. No, TNN is not. The problem with TNN is that lots of Magic players, not necessarily Legacy players, would stop playing Legacy because they are facing the question: do you join the TNN-bandwagon or do you try to hate it? You have to prepare for it. Either your Legacy deck will ignore it because it's combo, or you have to address TNN somehow. That's Not what lots of Magic players in other format would want to do. I hate it when people've told me that they had their pet Legacy deck(s) and now they don't want to attend local Legacy events anymore because TNN.

Alot of legacy players play primary for enjoyment. If a deck they enjoy is not competitive or they don't have access to a competive deck they enjoy they won't play. As TNN is a card few enjoy I would like to see it banned. I play it in my own deck but I still hate it. Is it oppressive no. It is however counter to the reasons I play legacy in the first place.

[ironclad8690]

The RUG players can come hang out with the Maverick players in the tier 1 has been thread :laugh: don't forget your Coping with not being Tier 1 Orientation Manual

[Norm]

Yes, S&T should be considered for the ban. No, TNN is not


TNN is a banworthy card because it's not interactive in the slightest, it's warping the metagame in a similar way that MM did.

P.S: Banning S&T would only hurt legacy. The card is powerful and so are many others, it's a strategy that opponents can interact with and the only real complaints come from players with a few bad beats stories that love to forget the many times they killed those S&T decks while their opponent cantripped for a few turns and lost a counterspell fight before they died. If we banned S&T today, Storm would start to come into question "Well, they banned S&T because it was too strong and storm is such a blah blah blah" you get the point.

Ban cards because they warp the format heavily, don't ask for bannings because you personally had a rough beats case against a deck that creeps up into top spots here and there before getting crushed into oblivion by preparation.

Oh, and ban Bridge from Below because I can't beat it without graveyard hate cards /sarcasm

[Dark Ritual]

This is a stupid thing to say. TNN is a banworthy card because it's not interactive in the slightest, it's warping the metagame in a similar way that MM did.

P.S: Banning S&T would only hurt legacy. The card is powerful and so are many others, it's a strategy that opponents can interact with and the only real complaints come from players with a few bad beats stories that love to forget the many times they killed those S&T decks while their opponent cantripped for a few turns and lost a counterspell fight before they died. If we banned S&T today, Storm would start to come into question "Well, they banned S&T because it was too strong and storm is such a blah blah blah" you get the point.

Ban cards because they warp the format heavily, don't ask for bannings because you personally had a rough beats case against a deck that creeps up into top spots here and there before getting crushed into oblivion by preparation.

Oh, and ban Bridge from Below because I can't beat it without graveyard hate cards /sarcasm

You can prepare for anything. But can you prepare for everything? Not even remotely when it comes to a format like legacy with over 10,000 unique cards available in the card pool as well as a wide swath of strategies. There's also one gigantic difference between storm combo and show and tell. Winning with a show and tell deck is literally the EASIEST thing to do in legacy. I show and telled emrakul in, my opponent lacked an answer so they died to spaghetti. Show and telled griselbrand, invalidating my opponents entire strategy because fuck you I have a 7/7 flying lifelinker. In storm you actually have to know your deck in order to win the game and the interactions. Storm isn't the easiest archetype to master.

RUG was obsolete during misstep due to how dead it was to the card. As for how good it is right now, the answer is that it is no longer the number 1 deck. In a few months it will have dropped off even further all due to TNN. TNN is subtly warping the metagame around itself and I would be surprised if it didn't get the axe honestly. As for RUG beating a resolved TNN, good luck with the current list. Need 2 goyfs to get past TNN and that isn't happening when the opponent swords to plowshares or blocks + bolts a goyf or simply races via batterskull beatdown. Delver flies over and that is the only way but as soon as TNN hooks up to something delver isn't going to get you there as SoFaI bolts flipped delver quite effectively, feast and famine races effectively, and skull is actually just a vigilant baneslayer angel against RUG without flying/game over.

[Zombie]

You can prepare for anything. But can you prepare for everything? Not even remotely when it comes to a format like legacy with over 10,000 unique cards available in the card pool as well as a wide swath of strategies. There's also one gigantic difference between storm combo and show and tell. Winning with a show and tell deck is literally the EASIEST thing to do in legacy. I show and telled emrakul in, my opponent lacked an answer so they died to spaghetti. Show and telled griselbrand, invalidating my opponents entire strategy because fuck you I have a 7/7 flying lifelinker. In storm you actually have to know your deck in order to win the game and the interactions. Storm isn't the easiest archetype to master.

This. Losing to SnT just feels dumb, and the deck is really binary too. It's 100% dead or you're 100% dead. With engine decks there's just more nuance, the interactions are less absolute and binary. Or to put the feeling in other words, the game feels like a farce. Same kind of vibe with TNN.


RUG was obsolete during misstep due to how dead it was to the card. As for how good it is right now, the answer is that it is no longer the number 1 deck. In a few months it will have dropped off even further all due to TNN. TNN is subtly warping the metagame around itself

TNN's format warping is about as subtle as a hammer to the head if you ask me.

[ESG]

RUG was obsolete during misstep due to how dead it was to the card.

Think we need a history lesson here. NO RUG was actually the dominant deck of the format during that period. This was back when the Hatfields were doing the Too Much Information series, and the results consistently showed that the deck was the top dog (and No. 2 was Stoneblade). Of course, the deck looked a little different because Delver of Secrets wasn't printed yet. The format was slower, so the deck was able to run Natural Order. The RUG that you're describing -- RUG Delver -- never coexisted with Mental Misstep.

I agree with your other points.

[Arsenal]

Think we need a history lesson here. NO RUG was actually the dominant deck of the format during that period. This was back when the Hatfields were doing the Too Much Information series, and the results consistently showed that the deck was the top dog (and No. 2 was Stoneblade). Of course, the deck looked a little different because Delver of Secrets wasn't printed yet. The format was slower, so the deck was able to run Natural Order. The RUG that you're describing -- RUG Delver -- never coexisted with Mental Misstep.

I agree with your other points.

I thought he was referring to old Canadian Threshold (the old build that only ran 4 Mongoose/4 Goyf as it's creature suite), not RUG Delver (as you pointed out, wasn't even a deck during the MM era).

[ESG]

I thought he was referring to old Canadian Threshold (the old build that only ran 4 Mongoose/4 Goyf as it's creature suite), not RUG Delver (as you pointed out, wasn't even a deck during the MM era).

Hmm. In that case, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Did Canadian Threshold just shift its angle of attack to Natural Order and evolve into NO RUG after Mental Misstep shook things up, or did people in fact consider them separate decks? If they were separate decks, then I agree that the classic 4 Goyf, 4 Mongoose build became unviable. I know Mark Sun is on these boards and ran NO RUG at that time. I wonder if he has an opinion on this.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Hmm. In that case, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Did Canadian Threshold just shift its angle of attack to Natural Order and evolve into NO RUG after Mental Misstep shook things up, or did people in fact consider them separate decks? If they were separate decks, then I agree that the classic 4 Goyf, 4 Mongoose build became unviable. I know Mark Sun is on these boards and ran NO RUG at that time. I wonder if he has an opinion on this.

They were definitely separate decks. NO RUG was a short-lived, midrange phenomenon that ran Noble Hierarch in addition to the other mentioned cards (something that has never been seen in Canadian Threshold afaik). Canadian Threshold aka "Thresh with Burn" has been around since basically the start of Legacy, the creature base has just changed over time although Mongoose has been a constant.

[carefulmug]

I'm glad the conversation has switched to NO RUG.

During Mental Misstep, Canadian was illegitimate because the top decks ran a soft CotV @ 1, and the fundamental turn of the meta had been shifted such that midrange decks were top performers.

So I've been wondering: If Canadian Thresh turns out ill-suited for a TNN//Anti-TNN meta, could NO RUG, perhaps splashing a Bayou and running DRS instead of Noble, be a solution? Not for the archetype, but at least for the color scheme?

[Megadeus]

I'm glad the conversation has switched to NO RUG.

During Mental Misstep, Canadian was illegitimate because the top decks ran a soft CotV @ 1, and the fundamental turn of the meta had been shifted such that midrange decks were top performers.

So I've been wondering: If Canadian Thresh turns out ill-suited for a TNN//Anti-TNN meta, could NO RUG, perhaps splashing a Bayou and running DRS instead of Noble, be a solution? Not for the archetype, but at least for the color scheme?

Why not just NO BUG?

[carefulmug]

For what it's worth, the reasons to run red: Red enables Burn (reach), REB/Pyro (wins counter wars, counters TNN, beats top decked SnT), and Ancient Grudge (recurrent artifact destruction).

Nonetheless, Megadeus, you make a good point. It's a slippery slope once a Bayou and a set of DRS get included. Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize are sure to follow.

It would be similar to the conversation regarding Canadian vs BURG vs BUG Delver//Team America.

[FieryBalrog]

Where does it leave Red? Pyroblast & REB, amusingly enough. Lightning Bolt was already bad against the premiere Legacy creature for years and yet settled into a good niche. It'll still have some space carved out for it.

What Red needs is a bigger slice of the color pie, really. Now that Goblins is further crippled thanks to TNN pushing -X/-X so hard, Red doesn't even have a good flagship deck.

[ESG]

@ Admiral_Arzar: Thanks for the input.

@ carefulmug: One crucial difference is that Supreme Verdict exists now to answer the Natural Order target. NO BUG might be better in that it could use Thoughtseize to strip it, but, then again, Brainstorm can play around Thoughtseize. I've tried various configurations of midrange decks running Natural Order, and I just don't think the card does enough anymore. It's great in Elves, but a midrange deck can't capitalize on Natural Order the same way as in the Misstep era.

[Erdvermampfa]

I miss the good old days.

[Julian23]

Oh NO RUG. I had more like an affair with the deck than a real bonding relationship as it was the case with Bant Survival. Still, to this day, I feel as if NO RUG was by far the strongest deck I ever played. It was probably the only deck that was ever able to pull off stunts like 4 Vendilion Clique and get away with it. And being RUG, it also sported a sideboard that really causes wet dreams; each card had such an huge impact and Sylvan Library was such boss in there.

If Bant Survival was like eventually marrying your best friend just to see her locked away in prison for a crime she didn't commit, NO RUG was having a short-lived, hot affair with the incredibly hot wife of a South-American druglord; while you got away, she eventually got what she deserved.

[Raystar]

...If Bant Survival was like eventually marrying your best friend just to see her locked away in prison for a crime she didn't commit, NO RUG was having a short-lived, hot affair with the incredibly hot wife of a South-American druglord; while you got away, she eventually got what she deserved.

Best comparison ever :) Just a bit too long to be a signature :)

[twndomn]

what good old days? didn't RUG Delver just win SCG Nashville on Feb. 2014?

[lavafrogg]

BAM! When you least expect it…RUG strikes again!

[Tormod]

Never say never

[ESG]

BAM! When you least expect it…RUG strikes again!

Pretty much this. He desperately needed to find a Lightning Bolt to seal up his quarterfinals match against Shardless BUG, and he found it in the nick of time. From there it was two combo decks, so RUG's natural prey. I will say that the play-draw rule greatly improves the chances of tempo decks, because playing first is so advantageous for them, and in a couple of these Opens we've seen a tempo deck go in as the top seed. Just because RUG has lost ground in the metagame doesn't mean it's a poor deck overall, but you'll notice that there were no other copies that made Top 32.

[nedleeds]

It might not get played also because if you've been playing for some time it's a fairly played out deck. It's just not that interesting, and 9 rounds is a long long day.

[alphastryk]

... and out of DTB for the first time since Delver was printed...

[(nameless one)]

How the mighty have fallen.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes back again. All these combo decks running around in light of midrange domination might be the perfect set up for Canadian Thresh to come back to DtB.

[Arsenal]

How the mighty have fallen.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes back again. All these combo decks running around in light of midrange domination might be the perfect set up for Canadian Thresh to come back to DtB.

But doesn't Patriot do everything against combo that RUG Delver does, while having a better game versus midrange/fair decks?

[alphastryk]

But doesn't Patriot do everything against combo that RUG Delver does, while having a better game versus midrange/fair decks?

That's the theory. I don't think its true, but a lot of people have bought into that.

[Tammit67]

That's the theory. I don't think its true, but a lot of people have bought into that.

It certainly isn't true, you really hurt your combo matchups by having mostly reactive hate while having to invest more mana on threats. The only saving grace is Meddling mage, and they don't solve all your problems.