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View Full Version : UR Fish - old fashioned but competitive!



Nancy Boy
02-08-2014, 07:33 AM
Dear Community,

first of all, excuse my bad English. I am a German player and reader of this website.

Since UR Fish had been my Team's pet-deck in the beginnings of the "new" Legacy, we tried to make it playable around the years 2006-2007.
At that time, we failed. UR Landstill was the better choice back then since Goblin-aggro and fat creatures were too dominant.

In today's meta, the only competitive UR Aggro-Control seems to be UR Delver. Especially in the more "controllish" version with Stifle and TNN, it has tendencies towards boardcontrol. In the end, however, it is still a protective beatdown in my opinion.

I believe that in a meta, where most of the decks to play and decks to beat are either using few mana sources or depending on the combination of different cards, there is room for a strong and focused Boardcontrol-Deck that beats Combo and low creature count. The fundament of the Deck will be a modified version of the old UR "Fish" without fishes:

Note: some choices may seem QUITE odd, but I will explain them in detail if you are kind enough to scroll down ;)

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Spiketail Hatchling

3 Curiosity
3 Sigil of Sleep

4 Force of Will
2 Daze

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Stifle
4 Standstill

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain

SB:

4 Submerge
4 REB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Fire/Ice or Jace's Phantasm


1. What makes this Deck playable? Why should you try it?

- the fact that a Mancer, protected by 10 Counterspells (Sprite, Daze, FoW) wins games against small Critters alone

- the fact that it can tempo-down the opponent and randomly win by stifeling and wasting lands, using and abusing one of the core problems in MTG: Manascrew
(4 Daze, 3 Stifle, 3 Hatchling)

- the fact that our creatures, even though their bodies are weak, all have the potential to create either card- or tempoadvantage
(4 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Cloud of Faeries, 3 Hatchling, 4 Sprite)

- the fact that it has incredibly strong draw
(3 Curiosity, 4 Standstill)

- the fact that it can change very quickly from control to beatdown
(Imagine the following situation: the opponent has 13 life and you have 14. In play are a factory, 2 Volcanics, a Spellstutter Sprite and a Mancer. Opponent has Tarmogoyf and Shaman and 3 cards in hand. Your hand: Daze and Lightning bolt. It looks bad, doesn't it? But if you shoot EOT for 2 and draw another Bolt, you can shoot again and bolt him twice. Even if he can counter or get life, you still have a flying 1/1 and a 2/2 waiting)

- the fact that it can also handle fatsos
(Grim + Bolt or the really strong Sigil + any creature in the Deck, SB: Submerge and Jace's Phantasm)

- the fact that it has a good Esperblade matchup

- the fact that it has an awesome Combo-Matchup (10 counters, 3 Stifle, Disruption and Red/Blue Sideboard)

- the very flexible Sideboard (you can switch from creature-based to more controllish or, especially against monocolored Decks, to more aggro)

- the fact that it has a decent matchup against most Decks to Beat



2. Why Sigil of Sleep and Cloud of Faeries? Those are crap! Why Curiosity over Brainstorm? Why no Delver of Secrets? Why not at least Ninjas you casualplayer asshole?

- this is a boardcontrol Deck that doesn't need to kill quickly

- because Enchantments are good and repetitive if you play them well - which means only under protection or the turn you attack or the opponent is outtapped

- because Sigil beats not only Goyf, but also certain 20/20 flying Elementas when played on Mancer or 5/5 Demons, even when played after he attacked you for 5 with his only flying Blocker

- because we don't play enough instants and sorcerys and we need the utility of EVERY creature in the Deck

- because Cloud is good with nearly every other card in the Deck: Standstill, Sprite, Curiosity, Sigil, Factory

- because Ninjas suck - imagine you attack a Goofy-player with a Hatchling and ninjitsu-in the Mistblade Shinobi. He returns, then you recast Hatchling. His turn: recast Goofy. You just payed 3 Mana and attacked just to give him summoning sickness... Sigil can stall him much better

3. Have you really playtested this rogue pile?

Yes sir, and it worked well, at least in the MWS environment. So far, I went
16 wins, 4 losses, 1 draw due to Disconnection. Let's check the Matchups:

3 Lands.dec ( 2 wins, 1 loss because I blocked stupidly, 1 loss because he played an awesome version with Gamble)

50/50 - especially post-board you chances grow. The good thing is that you are able to slow him down extremely in the first 3-5 turns. By then, you should have made enough damage to be able to kill him before he can stabilize with recurring burn.

1 UR Delver (win)

65/35 you can ignore his burn, all you need to do is kill his creatures. Since Spellstutter gives you an awesome advantage (even alone), it can sometimes help to block Delver with two Faeries. You have to be smart enough to realize when you have to swith to beatdown. Factory has to be used very aggressively sometimes.

2 Mono Black (win)

65/35 Smallpox does seldomly really hurt you, as does the discard. You usually win as soon as you resolve Standstill. Therefore, aggressively counter his Discard.

2 Burn (1 win, 1 loss, the list I won against was suboptimal)

20/60 same shit as with every other Aggrocontrol except Spellstutter saves the day and it is easier to handle things like Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil

1 UW Control (win)

70/30 you are faster, this is where the tempo-element of the Deck is incredibly strong; Hatchling and Daze are the stars of those matchups

1 Esperblade (win)

60/40 because it is relatively easy to handle his Critters and post-board, you have good hate against his counters

1 Show and Tell Reanimator Mix (win)

65/35 because you are usually able to collect enough Counterspells very quickly and have excellent Sideboard-options supporting you

2 Reanimator (2 win) quite similar

2 The Rock (1 sadly the disconnect, 1 win)

55/45 you need a strong start here, in the best case a Standstill. The most important thing is to handle the fatties. Often you can disrupt him completely by shooting the Dryads and Manaproducers in addition to Wasteland and/or Stifle

1 Canadian Thresholt (win)

can't really remember this one

1 Staxx (win)
65/35 Explosive starts, lots of (Man)Lands, disruption against his Double-Lands and free counters make this a good matchup.

3 random piles, Zombie-Stuff, Elves etc. (3 win)

1 Team America (loss)

I drew extremely bad and boarded stupidly, so I can't really make a statement here. Looks like 40/60 to me due to his high amount of Protection for extremely huge creatures.


What do you guys think? I would love to playtest via MWS with anyone.

pharmacolite
02-09-2014, 08:47 PM
Greetings! One small question:Have you played with Jund or other decks with a lot abrupt decay?Because it is a big threat to the creature enchanted,and except sigil of sleep you can hardly handle fatties as your creature with sigil of sleep could get decayed.

MGB
02-10-2014, 12:00 AM
Why MWS and not Cockatrice for testing?

And these online free programs are not exactly known for their mass of skilled players. Maybe you should post results for play-testing against skilled team-members or tournament results?

And with regard to the deck: I like it, it is like those NinjaStill decks but with more of an emphasis on utility fish. The one big problem though - 2-for-1 card disadvantage if player kills any of your creatures in response to Curiosity/Sigil enchantment. I'd be hesitant to play such cards without Hexproof creatures. Have you considered Invisible Stalker or True-Name Nemesis?

Nancy Boy
02-10-2014, 06:03 AM
Greetings! One small question:Have you played with Jund or other decks with a lot abrupt decay?Because it is a big threat to the creature enchanted,and except sigil of sleep you can hardly handle fatties as your creature with sigil of sleep could get decayed.

Yes I have, and that is a valid point.

However, those Decks usually have to get rid of Mancer in the first place.
And they need G/B Mana.
And Sprite is able to compensate the disadvantage.

But most importantly, it's a lesser problem if one plays the enchantments correctly - preferably if the opponent is outtapped. After one attack, you do not have carddisadvantage anymore.

If you really suffer from this problem, I would recommend replacing Sigil of Sleep with Mistblade Shinobi - this also has the advantage that Sprite becomes a recurring Counterspell, which can create huge cardadvantage.

But Curiosity > Ninja of the Deep Hours, no debate on that ;)


Why MWS and not Cockatrice for testing?

And these online free programs are not exactly known for their mass of skilled players. Maybe you should post results for play-testing against skilled team-members or tournament results?

And with regard to the deck: I like it, it is like those NinjaStill decks but with more of an emphasis on utility fish. The one big problem though - 2-for-1 card disadvantage if player kills any of your creatures in response to Curiosity/Sigil enchantment. I'd be hesitant to play such cards without Hexproof creatures. Have you considered Invisible Stalker or True-Name Nemesis?

I would like to, but sadly I am too busy to visit tournaments atm.

I tried Stalker, but Hatchling's utility has proven to be more important than the Hexproof. Without an enchantment, the Stalker does not really do too much.

TNN is great, but I not in this Deck imo... it does not fit the Manacurve and does not much more than beating. Similar prolem, basically.

Final Fortune
02-10-2014, 09:10 AM
Sigil of Sleep seems a bit too cute, Dismember may be a better way to go.

clavio
02-10-2014, 09:31 AM
I feel like you're playing a few too many lands? Maybe you have to because you aren't running Brainstorm....

The Invisible Stalker has to be better than cloud of faeries.

I use to play a deck like this but I don't think it'd be good anymore.

Winter Orb is probably decent here.

TsumiBand
02-10-2014, 02:27 PM
I LOVE THIS DECK.

One of my favorite cards in the old old old incarnation was Voidmage Prodigy, because its "sac a wizard - counter target spell". I never did care for sacrificing Grim Lavamancer to it, but Spellstutter Sprite would be a great sacrificial lamb for such an effect.

To that end, I wonder if Mutavault is better Mishra's Factory -- not that I'm advocating sacrificing a ton of good stuff just to make the deck more tribal. However, Mutavault would also potentially boost your Spellstutter Sprites as well as work with Voidmage Prodigy in a pinch. Plus it's tech against opposing Sliver decks!! Okay I stop now

I always ran this deck with a little more burn, but I'm kind of a knob. Still there's something to be said for breaking a Standstill into Bolt/Bolt/Fireblast and just oopsing 10 damage into someone's teeth.

Nancy Boy
02-11-2014, 04:18 PM
Sigil of Sleep seems a bit too cute, Dismember may be a better way to go.

That's an interesting idea and I will test it. I believe, however, that the repetitiveness and especially the better matchup against pure Aggro and Combo (Show and Tell / 20/20 Avatars anyone?) will keep me convinced on Sigil.


I feel like you're playing a few too many lands? Maybe you have to because you aren't running Brainstorm....
The Invisible Stalker has to be better than cloud of faeries.
I use to play a deck like this but I don't think it'd be good anymore.
Winter Orb is probably decent here.

I think the land count is good like that. 4 Wastelands and 4 Beaters makes technically -8. And you invest constantly in attacks, Mancers and Spells.

Brainstorm in Fish has been widely debated. I agree with the majority that Curiosity does a better job here. It's not reactive but proactive, it's dangerously repetitive and it fits with every creature. And it makes quantity, not only quality.

Stalker has two weaknesses: he doesn't synergate with Standstill and he doesn't synergate with Sprite. Both synergies are in my view extremely strong arguments for the playability of CoF. If you try it, you will agree.

Regarding the rest of your post: see my opening post. I seriously believe that this might get Tier 2 or 3 status if it's tuned and/or some well-fitting cards surprise us in the next editions. At least a place in the "Established" section of this fine website would be my nerdy wet dream :D



I LOVE THIS DECK.
One of my favorite cards in the old old old incarnation was Voidmage Prodigy, because its "sac a wizard - counter target spell". I never did care for sacrificing Grim Lavamancer to it, but Spellstutter Sprite would be a great sacrificial lamb for such an effect.
To that end, I wonder if Mutavault is better Mishra's Factory -- not that I'm advocating sacrificing a ton of good stuff just to make the deck more tribal. However, Mutavault would also potentially boost your Spellstutter Sprites as well as work with Voidmage Prodigy in a pinch. Plus it's tech against opposing Sliver decks!! Okay I stop now
I always ran this deck with a little more burn, but I'm kind of a knob. Still there's something to be said for breaking a Standstill into Bolt/Bolt/Fireblast and just oopsing 10 damage into someone's teeth.

Nice idea with the Voidmage, but neither do I see free slots nor do I think that you can afford to pay UU and another UU the next turn. That's the reason why I don't play Jitte, and this one is even colorless! We play Tempo, not Control. We want to act, not react and keep Mana open.

Mutavault might indeed be a question of taste. It is not deniable, that Sprite gets much better with it. I might test that as well. But I am relateively sure that I would miss the 3/3 Blockers while I hit him with flyers/Grim. And the 3/3 attackers when I draw a second Factory (which happens quite often since we play extremely great draw).

I accept Bolt/Bolt/Grim (which saves a hell lot of games), but remember that this Deck is Tempo, not pure Aggro or Burn. Sacrificing lands is one of the last things we want to do. We don't have to be "fast" in the same sense as an Aggro-Deck. We rather leave this do a good old UR Delver Burn Deck :)

EDIT: Although I just got completely lucked-out by some random guy, this deck does not seem to have a good matchup against RUG Tempo Thresh. Does anyone have an idea how to improve this?
I have low hopes regarding this. Fire/Ice and 3/3 Mongooses are a pain in the ass. Goyf is nearly our least problem.

UW and BG were MUCH better, but this.. ouch.

TsumiBand
02-12-2014, 10:45 AM
That's an interesting idea and I will test it. I believe, however, that the repetitiveness and especially the better matchup against pure Aggro and Combo (Show and Tell / 20/20 Avatars anyone?) will keep me convinced on Sigil.



I think the land count is good like that. 4 Wastelands and 4 Beaters makes technically -8. And you invest constantly in attacks, Mancers and Spells.

Brainstorm in Fish has been widely debated. I agree with the majority that Curiosity does a better job here. It's not reactive but proactive, it's dangerously repetitive and it fits with every creature. And it makes quantity, not only quality.

Stalker has two weaknesses: he doesn't synergate with Standstill and he doesn't synergate with Sprite. Both synergies are in my view extremely strong arguments for the playability of CoF. If you try it, you will agree.

Regarding the rest of your post: see my opening post. I seriously believe that this might get Tier 2 or 3 status if it's tuned and/or some well-fitting cards surprise us in the next editions. At least a place in the "Established" section of this fine website would be my nerdy wet dream :D




Nice idea with the Voidmage, but neither do I see free slots nor do I think that you can afford to pay UU and another UU the next turn. That's the reason why I don't play Jitte, and this one is even colorless! We play Tempo, not Control. We want to act, not react and keep Mana open.

Mutavault might indeed be a question of taste. It is not deniable, that Sprite gets much better with it. I might test that as well. But I am relateively sure that I would miss the 3/3 Blockers while I hit him with flyers/Grim. And the 3/3 attackers when I draw a second Factory (which happens quite often since we play extremely great draw).

I accept Bolt/Bolt/Grim (which saves a hell lot of games), but remember that this Deck is Tempo, not pure Aggro or Burn. Sacrificing lands is one of the last things we want to do. We don't have to be "fast" in the same sense as an Aggro-Deck. We rather leave this do a good old UR Delver Burn Deck :)

EDIT: Although I just got completely lucked-out by some random guy, this deck does not seem to have a good matchup against RUG Tempo Thresh. Does anyone have an idea how to improve this?
I have low hopes regarding this. Fire/Ice and 3/3 Mongooses are a pain in the ass. Goyf is nearly our least problem.

UW and BG were MUCH better, but this.. ouch.

Aye, I agree with much of this. I was mostly reminiscing about Ye Good Olde Days; really, the deck I used to play was less UR Fish and more of this abomination somewhere between Fish/r and Electric Avenue. Electric Eel or Slith Firewalker are hilarious under a Standstill; eeking out victories against junk like Tog and Suicide Black, people would say "I have no idea if your deck is amazing or terrible, but I guess I'm going to lose to it." And they were right on all three counts; it was an amazing and terrible deck, and they were always just about to lose to it.

In any event -- Hibernation is a thing against Green creatures, in particular those with hexproof. Though you'll still probably need to win the counter war to get it to resolve against the aforementioned Threshold decks. Engineered Explosives for 1 would do the trick as well, though you might eat your own Lavamancers :(

These are not necessarily serious suggestions, but they exist -- Bonfire of the Damned targets the player, not their creatures, so a well-placed Brainstorm could Wrath their board or at least take out the untargetable Mongeese, and gives you that glorious 'oops I win' factor. Sudden Demise lets you deal X damage to creatures of the color of your choice (again, without targeting); it would kill pre-Threshold Geese for :1::r:, for :2::r: you start get DRS and un-pumped Scavenging Oozes. Just sucks that it is a Sorcery, but I suppose it'd have to be, wouldn't it. :/

Nancy Boy
02-13-2014, 08:15 AM
Thank you VERY much, that was helpful! I guess EE will be my first try.

Zupponn
02-13-2014, 06:49 PM
Don't forget about Ratchet Bomb as well. Might be a slightly more flexible option in certain situations.