Sylvan Library and words of wind/war

[Megadeus]

I feel like this works I'm a way that I want it to, I'm simply unsure of how I need to stack everything. Basically with both out, can I replace 2 library draws with words triggers and still draw the third card and not have to pay life for it?

[Zombie]

At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

You choose to draw two extra cards. You have a card in your hand that was drawn this turn. I don't see where the issue is. You pay or you put the naturally-drawn card back.

[Technics]

You choose to draw two extra cards. You have a card in your hand that was drawn this turn. I don't see where the issue is. You pay or you put the naturally-drawn card back.

You can only not pay life if you put back 2 cards, or have drawn zero cards for the turn (that includes your normal draw). Draw nothing, pay some life, or put 2 back. Those are the options.

[Valtrix]

For the above, technically you could just put back a single card and not pay life, if you've only naturally drawn one card for that turn that is. But anyway, let's look at the oracle text:


At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

Now, if you don't draw any cards during your turn, you can't choose any cards in hand. Thus the last part of Library has no effect. So, it does work how you want, at least kind of. For you to avoid any paying of life from Library, you'll have to replace all of your draws during that turn, including your normal draw. For some extra confirmation on the gatherer page there is a specific note:


If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.

[Megadeus]

So then I could simply replace all of the draws of library with Words triggers then and just not gain a card in hand?

[Tammit67]

So then I could simply replace all of the draws of library with Words triggers then and just not gain a card in hand?

There is no trigger from the Words cycle.

However if you replace all the draws for your turn after activating library, you have in fact not drawn any cards. Thus, you cannot select cards you've drawn for turn in your hand, and are not required to pay life

[PirateKing]

As a follow up, does this mean that if my opponent has Sylvan Library and I have Spirit of the Labyrinth, the would draw one card, then have to put it back or pay 4 life?

EDIT: Oops, it's a may effect. NEVER MIND THANKS GUYS.

[Megadeus]

So it is very similar to how dredge and Library work then? Just like Dredge, it is a replacement effect?

[Tammit67]

As a follow up, does this mean that if my opponent has Sylvan Library and I have Spirit of the Labyrinth, the would draw one card, then have to put it back or pay 4 life?

EDIT: Oops, it's a may effect. NEVER MIND THANKS GUYS.

If for whatever reason you decide to not opt out of the Library trigger in your draw step, Spirit will prevent the draw and the library trigger will attempt to do as much as possible aka put it back or pay 4.


So it is very similar to how dredge and Library work then? Just like Dredge, it is a replacement effect?

Correct. The Words cycle creates a replacement effect for the next time a draw would occur.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I got a similar question. I even thought about separate thread, but w/e.


Q: How does Sylvan Library work when Rowen and/or Abundance are present? I'm like 99% sure I know how this works, but I think asking never hurts.

1) Sylvan Library and Rowen in play, start the Draw phase, no cards drawn this turn.

a) Rowen's continuous ability makes me reveal the card, then I draw it somehow marking it, preferably setting aside. If it's a land card, Rowen's trigger makes me draw a second card.
b) If I revealed the land of Rowen, now I draw second card (and set it aside), otherwise move to (c).
c) Draw third and fourth card from Sylvan Library, set them aside.
d) Return to the top up to two cards (of the four I drawn so far)... preferably with a basic land on top.

So, with Sylvan Library and Rowen in play (plus a basic land card on top of library) I may draw two cards and rearrange another two per Draw phase.


2) Sylvan Library and Abundance in play, start Draw phase, again no cards drawn so far.
This should be fairly easy, am I right?

a) I'm about to draw the first card, I decide to use Abundance's replacement effect and it makes me reveal until I find the card of a chosen quality (land/non-land) and I put it into my hand.
b) Sylvan Library triggers, I once again decide to use Abundance's replacement effect and it makes me reveal until I find two card of a chosen quality and I put them into my hand.
c) No cards drawn (only put in a hand), thus no "pay four life per card or return" happens.

So, with Sylvan Library and Abundance I may put three cards of a chosen quality into my hand per Draw phase.


3) Sylvan Library, Rowen and Abundance in play, start Draw phase, again no cards drawn so far, land on top of library.

a) First card is about to be drawn. Rowen's continuous ability makes me reveal the first card drawn, but I may use Abundance to put a card into hand instead of drawing.

Now I may decide to:
b) reveal the first card to Rowen and fail to reveal a basic land.
c) Then Sylvan Library triggers, I use Abundance, put second and third card into my hand and return the first card on top or pay four life.

This way I get two cards of Draw phase, unless I pay four life for the very first card.


I may also...
b) ...reveal the first card to Rowen, show the basic land and draw it as my first drawn card this turn. Rowen's second ability triggers.
c) Instead of drawing a card from Rowen, I decide to replace it with Abundance and I put a second card in my hand.
d) Then Sylvan Library triggers, I replace it with Abundance, put third and fourth card in my hand and return the first (and only) card drawn this turn (the basic land revealed to Rowen) on top... unless I pay four life.

This way I get either three cards of the Draw phase with a fourth one returned to top, or I may get four cards at the cost of four life.


But I may also replace the first draw with Abundance.
a) Rowen asks for a drawn card, so the replacement won't fulfill the conditions. Rowen stays otb doing nothing else than being a nice card from brilliant expansion.
b) Sylvan Library triggers, I decide to use Abundance's replacement effect and it makes me reveal until I find two card of a chosen quality and I put them into my hand.
c) No cards drawn (only put in a hand), thus no "pay four life per card or return" happens.

So, if I choose to replace the draw with Abundance, Rowen does nothing. I may put three cards of a chosen quality into my hand per Draw phase, but it's the same as if there's no Rowen at all.


Correct me, please.

Also, if the above text is right, it means that Rwoen is fairly redundant once I have Abundance online, as the only thing it does is to reveal the first card and even if it's a basic land, I may draw it only at the expense of four life; moreover this leaves with an unknown card on top so it's harder to make Rowen trigger on my next turn.


tl,dr:
1) Sylvan Library and Rowen, basic land on top:
Reveal basic, draw it; draw another card; draw another two cards; return one or two on top or pay four/eight life.
Result: two cards drawn, two returned to top arranged.

2) Sylvan Library and Abundance:
Instead of drawing one plus two cards, reveal the top cards of oyur library until you put into hand three cards of chosen quality.
Result: three cards of chosen quality put into hand.

3) Sylvan Library, Rowen and Abundance, basic land on top:
a) Act like there's no Rowen in play. Put first card into hand; put second and third card into hand.
Result: three cards of chosen quality put into hand.
b) Reveal basic land to Rowen, draw it; put second card into hand; put third and fourth card into hand; return basic land on top or keep it for the cost of four life.
Result: either three cards put into hand OR three card put into hand and basic land revealed; this might be either returned to top or kept for four life.

:cry::confused:

[Megadeus]

Yay complicated interactions!

[Tammit67]

I got a similar question. I even thought about separate thread, but w/e.


Q: How does Sylvan Library work when Rowen and/or Abundance are present? I'm like 99% sure I know how this works, but I think asking never hurts.

1) Sylvan Library and Rowen in play, start the Draw phase, no cards drawn this turn.

a) Rowen's continuous ability makes me reveal the card, then I draw it somehow marking it, preferably setting aside. If it's a land card, Rowen's trigger makes me draw a second card.
b) If I revealed the land of Rowen, now I draw second card (and set it aside), otherwise move to (c).
c) Draw third and fourth card from Sylvan Library, set them aside.
d) Return to the top up to two cards (of the four I drawn so far)... preferably with a basic land on top.

So, with Sylvan Library and Rowen in play (plus a basic land card on top of library) I may draw two cards and rearrange another two per Draw phase.

Rowen and Sylvan Library both create triggers during your draw step. You place both triggers on the stack in any order you so choose. If you let Rowen resolve first and draw a card off the revealed land, then yes you'd have to keep track of it for the eventual sylvan library "Cards previously drawn this turn" book club.





2) Sylvan Library and Abundance in play, start Draw phase, again no cards drawn so far.
This should be fairly easy, am I right?

a) I'm about to draw the first card, I decide to use Abundance's replacement effect and it makes me reveal until I find the card of a chosen quality (land/non-land) and I put it into my hand.
b) Sylvan Library triggers, I once again decide to use Abundance's replacement effect and it makes me reveal until I find two card of a chosen quality and I put them into my hand.
c) No cards drawn (only put in a hand), thus no "pay four life per card or return" happens.

So, with Sylvan Library and Abundance I may put three cards of a chosen quality into my hand per Draw phase.


If you replace all your draws with (insert desired replacement effect here), then you haven't drawn them and library doesn't 'see' them as cards to put back or pay 4 life.


3) Sylvan Library, Rowen and Abundance in play, start Draw phase, again no cards drawn so far, land on top of library.

a) First card is about to be drawn. Rowen's continuous ability makes me reveal the first card drawn, but I may use Abundance to put a card into hand instead of drawing.

You don't get to see the card before applying abundance, just to clarify.


Now I may decide to:
snip for brevity

tl,dr:
1) Sylvan Library and Rowen, basic land on top:
Reveal basic, draw it; draw another card; draw another two cards; return one or two on top or pay four/eight life.
Result: two cards drawn, two returned to top arranged.

2) Sylvan Library and Abundance:
Instead of drawing one plus two cards, reveal the top cards of oyur library until you put into hand three cards of chosen quality.
Result: three cards of chosen quality put into hand.

3) Sylvan Library, Rowen and Abundance, basic land on top:
a) Act like there's no Rowen in play. Put first card into hand; put second and third card into hand.
Result: three cards of chosen quality put into hand.
b) Reveal basic land to Rowen, draw it; put second card into hand; put third and fourth card into hand; return basic land on top or keep it for the cost of four life.
Result: either three cards put into hand OR three card put into hand and basic land revealed; this might be either returned to top or kept for four life.

:cry::confused:
I think you are confusing the point. Depending on how you order triggers and what draws you decide to replace determines the outcome. When Sylvan Library's trigger resolves, you are required to choose 2 cards in your hand that have been drawn this turn (not replaced by Abundance for example) and for each of those either pay 4 life or put that card on top of the deck. If you have only drawn 1 card a turn (thanks based redundant Rowen), you have to select it.

Your tl;dr points fail to account for two different triggers you can stack at the start of the draw step if the first card drawn (as the special action of the step) for point 1. Point 2 is correct. Point 3a is correct. Point 3b however seems to be the source of your confusion and is wrong.

Here is a walk-through of what happens

1. Enter draw step and we elect not to replace that draw with abundance. Draw is revealed since it is the first draw, Rowen triggers since the first draw is a land. Sylvan cares about this drawn card down the road.

2. A player is about to receive priority, so we check for triggers. We see Rowen and Sylvan library waiting. Triggers are added to the stack in APNAP order. Since you control both triggers, you can decide the order. For complexity's sake, let Rowen resolve first.

3. Rowen's draw trigger resolves. We can replace it with Abundance or not. If replaced, sylvan library doesn't care. If not replaced, sylvan cares.

4. Sylvan Library's own draw trigger resolves. Each may individually be replaced with abundance's replacement effect.

5. We are now forced to choose 2 cards in our hand drawn this turn. We have drawn anywhere between 0 and 4 cards, select 2 of them and either pay for life a piece or place them on top of the deck.

We could have had Rowen's draw trigger resolve after sylvan's, in which case we'd choose between the 0 to 3 cards we have drawn this turn instead of between 0 to 4. The only thing that matters is keeping track of which cards have been drawn before and including Sylvan Library's draw and which have been replaced by abundance (and thus can enter the hand without being kept track of).

Is that clearer for you?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Is that clearer for you?

Yes, it is! Thanks a lot!

[cdr]

Thanks for taking the time to answer all that, Tammit. Some classic interactions.

[exallium]

winds of wilding sounds like a good time with beck, purphorous, and earthcraft =D

[Finn]

I thought I might add that these two cards
Sylvan Library
Pursuit of Knowledge
are just nifty together. You do not have to put any cards back with Sylvan Library. You just give up your one draw for the turn. No blue required for a quick handful.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's sick. I still consider building a Lhurgoclysm or some GW highlander, so this combo would be there definitely.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Being able to put smokestack up to 5 counters and still gain permanents makes Trinisphere a freaking win condition. Look up "sun tower" from back in the day. It was a RGu stax build that used words of war/Wilding and sylvan library for crazy nonsense. So much fun.

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