Would you quit Legacy if Brainstorm was banned?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Since this seems to be the only argument anyone can come up with for why the card shouldn't be banned, let's get some numbers. If Brainstorm was banned, would you quit the format entirely?

[IL_casual]

I wont quit legacy(i use maverick and omnitell). Will this hurt blue players...yes. will it make them quit.i dont think so. Will it make for a more diverse format..it might.")

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[humppa]

Last years I have played Bant, New Horizons, Canadian, Team America, TES, Show and Tell, Maverick.

It would nerf 6 of 7 my decks. Maybe I will spent more time with Vintage? :-)

[Gheizen64]

While i may have been all in favor of a BS ban before, let's be real. Right now, if you ban BS, TNN take over the format cause miracle really need those brainstorm for consistent Terminuses against it. IT MAY be decent enough to go with just SDT, but you'd really have to ban TNN with it too for safety. And honestly i really wouldn't want to see 2 cards banned at once just because wotc fucking sucks at designing cards for eternal unless they're fucking blue, blue blue and more blue.

Unban Survival and say fuck to this shitty TNN.

EDIT: nevermind, just ban fucking TNN and we may see Jund, DnT and maybe even some maverick again.

[Hof]

I would quit this forum if the Ban Brainstorm vendetta run by a handful of people doesn't stop.
It's just spam at this point.

[Gheizen64]

I would quit this forum if the Ban Brainstorm vendetta run by a handful of people doesn't stop.
It's just spam at this point.

Yeah sure the personal vendetta. Not like the card had like 75%+ presence in T8 for the last, what, 3 months? MM didn't reach 70% and everyone called for that even like the meta back then was still diverse, probably more so than it is now (granted, much of the fault is fucking TNN but whatever). But keep telling yourself that is a personal vendetta. This is getting stupid like climate deniers that just ignore the evidence for some sort of faith in their BS god.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Repetative bullshit from the same users, every cahnce they get. :really:

Nice double post.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would quit this forum if the Ban Brainstorm vendetta run by a handful of people doesn't stop.
It's just spam at this point.

You can tell this because of the statistical data and reasoned arguments toted by the supporters of Brainstorm, whereas the pro-banning crowd are forced to revert to threatening tantrums and trying to silence their opponents with sniffily dismissive, insubstantive posts.

[Fuzzy]

If they ban Brainstorm, what am I supposed to pitch to FoW?

[Illusions]

Yeah sure the personal vendetta. Not like the card had like 75%+ presence in T8 for the last, what, 3 months? MM didn't reach 70% and everyone called for that even like the meta back then was still diverse, probably more so than it is now (granted, much of the fault is fucking TNN but whatever). But keep telling yourself that is a personal vendetta. This is getting stupid like climate deniers that just ignore the evidence for some sort of faith in their BS god.

I think the real issue is that blue is the only colour able to interact with the stack and stop combo. Blue gives you dramatically better matchups against an archetype that no other colour can reliably face (maybe black, though even then, blue is still more effective at it), and it doesn't make any sense to not play brainstorm at that point because it dramatically improves the consistency of your deck.

What needs to happen is that other colours also need ways to target things on the stack, because it will at least provide some incentive for other colours to be played a bit more. On top of this, we need more cards like spirit of the labyrinth which hose blue card draw. Notion Thief was on the right track, but he was in blue, and he cost too much. SoL is almost there, but she came at the wrong time. TNN being in the format means she cops a lot of incidental hate as splash damage.

What I would also like to see is better card filtering for other colours. Things like:

R
When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, discard a card.
2/1

It's aggressive card parity that would suit red, and play into aggro decks by giving them slightly better card selection without overpowering them.

[Raystar]

I think the real issue is that blue is the only colour able to interact with the stack and stop combo. Blue gives you dramatically better matchups against an archetype that no other colour can reliably face (maybe black, though even then, blue is still more effective at it), and it doesn't make any sense to not play brainstorm at that point because it dramatically improves the consistency of your deck.

What needs to happen is that other colours also need ways to target things on the stack, because it will at least provide some incentive for other colours to be played a bit more. On top of this, we need more cards like spirit of the labyrinth which hose blue card draw. Notion Thief was on the right track, but he was in blue, and he cost too much. SoL is almost there, but she came at the wrong time. TNN being in the format means she cops a lot of incidental hate as splash damage.

What I would also like to see is better card filtering for other colours. Things like:

R
When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, discard a card.
2/1

It's aggressive card parity that would suit red, and play into aggro decks by giving them slightly better card selection without overpowering them.

I believe that UR Delver would be very happy to play that card in addition to its cantrip suite :)

[Gheizen64]

I think the real issue is that blue is the only colour able to interact with the stack and stop combo. Blue gives you dramatically better matchups against an archetype that no other colour can reliably face (maybe black, though even then, blue is still more effective at it), and it doesn't make any sense to not play brainstorm at that point because it dramatically improves the consistency of your deck.

What needs to happen is that other colours also need ways to target things on the stack, because it will at least provide some incentive for other colours to be played a bit more. On top of this, we need more cards like spirit of the labyrinth which hose blue card draw. Notion Thief was on the right track, but he was in blue, and he cost too much. SoL is almost there, but she came at the wrong time. TNN being in the format means she cops a lot of incidental hate as splash damage.

What I would also like to see is better card filtering for other colours. Things like:

R
When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, discard a card.
2/1

It's aggressive card parity that would suit red, and play into aggro decks by giving them slightly better card selection without overpowering them.

Designing good cards in other colors is something we waited R&D to do forever. We still haven't got a decent red card, and we'll probably never get someting good for red draw ever, since card drawing in general has been nerfed. The point is that in the past we saw many cards banned for ubiquity, like Clamp, MM, Survival etc... and here we are a point where historically i think no card has ever been this dominant. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but i've played since 93 and i think i've seen every winter or summer combo season, and tbh even in the tinker era u still had many non-blue decks like goblin, elves, and enchantress (this is pre-mirrodin tinker obv).

Your answer to combo in other colors already exist, for black it's called discard, but it's generally ineffective against Brainstorm. White also has way to stop combo with taxxes, so you would get actually 3 colors that can interact with combo meaningfully (red COULD interact decently with combo if they printed some aggressive LD or random-discards into draw for both players, but red has to sucks apparently), and green being basically unable to interact with anything outside of the in-game zone sit well in the flavor for the color imho. Problem is that now color have not only to not sucks against combo, but against TNN too. This basically kills red dead, because of no efficient fliers, nor way to remove or race TNN, and bolt become irrilevant. Black and green combination can still survive because of ways to remove TNN efficiently with Liliana + Golgari and other cards, and once again blue is the best color to deal with it with countermagic + library manipulation into terminus or simply supreme verdict. White alone can do something but has to rely on fliers which are usually underpar against anything that isn't TNN, and as such DnT is dying too.

TNN has to go, and he has to go right now because it's a dumb card that has to die in hell for removing so many kinds of interactions from this format.

[Hof]

What is the point of this thread, if not to generate a repeat of exactly the same discussion, with exactly the same arguments for the 100th time?
I call that spam.

Are you trying to prove that not very many would quit Legacy? If so why? Why does it matter?

[lordofthepit]

No, but I would be disappointed, and I've piloted more than my fair share of non-blue decks.

[Gheizen64]

What is the point of this thread, if not to generate a repeat of exactly the same discussion, with exactly the same arguments for the 100th time?
I call that spam.

Are you trying to prove that not very many would quit Legacy? If so why? Why does it matter?

New facts have emerged, and as data change , people opinions on it may too. If they doesn't, then they probably harbor some kind of "faith" that's stronger than any data we will ever present to them. And we that don't share that faith with them are damned to hell.

[JPoJohnson]

Combo sure would get stronger (Especially Dredge since people couldn't dig for hate as easily).

Brainstorm decreases variance. Everyone wants less variance to their deck. It makes sense that so many people run it. I have 2 decks that don't run Brainstorm (Merfolk and Dredge), but this would hurt my others (Patriot Midrange, TES, and Miracles) quite a bit.

[Grand Superior]

I wouldn't quit, but the format would be dramatically worse than it is now. Glass cannon combo would actually get better because decks now only have seven chances at a Force of Will rather than the ten they got on the play with Brainstorm. Banning Brainstorm wouldn't solve the main diversity-reducing problem of the format now, which is True-Name Nemesis. TNN decks would just shrug, run Preordain and Ponder instead of Brainstorm, and carry on as before.

Brainstorm isn't the culprit here. True-Name Nemesis is. TNN gave blue the best card ever in fair matchups. Legacy was fine before C13 was printed when the fair Brainstorm decks tended to have trouble with Jund, Death and Taxes, Goblins, and Maverick and those decks were real contenders. TNN throws that out the window and makes blue the best colour at everything. It only follows that Brainstorm, a heavily played blue card, is played more because of that.

[nedleeds]

While i may have been all in favor of a BS ban before, let's be real. Right now, if you ban BS, TNN take over the format cause miracle really need those brainstorm for consistent Terminuses against it. IT MAY be decent enough to go with just SDT, but you'd really have to ban TNN with it too for safety. And honestly i really wouldn't want to see 2 cards banned at once just because wotc fucking sucks at designing cards for eternal unless they're fucking blue, blue blue and more blue.

Unban Survival and say fuck to this shitty TNN.


Yeah ... this is sad but true. I think some unbannings until something cracks are in order. Having Earthcraft, Survival and Black Vise on the list when Ancestrallite 28 of 32s every event is really embarrassing for WotC/DCI.

[nedleeds]

Combo sure would get stronger (Especially Dredge since people couldn't dig for hate as easily).

Brainstorm decreases variance. Everyone wants less variance to their deck. It makes sense that so many people run it. I have 2 decks that don't run Brainstorm (Merfolk and Dredge), but this would hurt my others (Patriot Midrange, TES, and Miracles) quite a bit.

2 Card combo (Show and derp mostly) would be impacted profoundly. Not only their ability to chimp together their 2 cards, but the inability to save one half from targeted discard. Dredge as a combo deck is a redudant pile looking for enabler -> dredger. Storm combo would also be impacted savagely, being unable to setup a winning turn whilst hiding a key card and also not being able to ancestral and flush extra tutors and lands to find more gas cards.

[HSCK]

You know what would be more embarrassing? People stop showing up to events and banning a creature that was a 5-of in the top 8 of the GP. It's going to take a lot to get a ban if attendance continues to be great and there being a significant amount of different decks in the meta blue or not.

[dsck]

Theres modern for you whom dont like brainstorm.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I wouldn't quit, but the format would be dramatically worse than it is now. Glass cannon combo would actually get better because decks now only have seven chances at a Force of Will rather than the ten they got on the play with Brainstorm. Banning Brainstorm wouldn't solve the main diversity-reducing problem of the format now, which is True-Name Nemesis. TNN decks would just shrug, run Preordain and Ponder instead of Brainstorm, and carry on as before.

Brainstorm isn't the culprit here. True-Name Nemesis is. TNN gave blue the best card ever in fair matchups. Legacy was fine before C13 was printed when the fair Brainstorm decks tended to have trouble with Jund, Death and Taxes, Goblins, and Maverick and those decks were real contenders. TNN throws that out the window and makes blue the best colour at everything. It only follows that Brainstorm, a heavily played blue card, is played more because of that.

Something I've already said and can't say enough. Stop hating on the wrong card guys.

[nedleeds]

Theres modern for you whom dont like brainstorm.

Sweet didn't have do wait long for that ... can I get a

"pillar of the format"
"go play standard"
"wouldn't be legacy without it"
"skill intensive"

to go with that tired meaningless response?

[Dragonslayer_90]

You know what would be more embarrassing? People stop showing up to events and banning a creature that was a 5-of in the top 8 of the GP. It's going to take a lot to get a ban if attendance continues to be great and there being a significant amount of different decks in the meta blue or not.

Just because TNN had a small presence in the Top 8 doesn't mean the card isn't warping the format in an unhealthy way enough for Wizards to consider banning it. The fact that all decks in the Top 8 were mostly decks that either don't care about TNN and/or built to beat TNN is disconcerting in addition to the fact that all but one of the decks of the Top 8 was blue.

[JPoJohnson]

2 Card combo (Show and derp mostly) would be impacted profoundly. Not only their ability to chimp together their 2 cards, but the inability to save one half from targeted discard. Dredge as a combo deck is a redudant pile looking for enabler -> dredger. Storm combo would also be impacted savagely, being unable to setup a winning turn whilst hiding a key card and also not being able to ancestral and flush extra tutors and lands to find more gas cards.

I was thinking more that Painter, Belcher, Elves, Dredge, etc would get stronger. Show and Tell, I feel, would get stronger since control would get that much weaker. If control/Midrange can't find the answers fast enough, they get trampled.

[DragoFireheart]

Sweet didn't have do wait long for that ... can I get a

"pillar of the format"
"go play standard"
"wouldn't be legacy without it"
"skill intensive"

to go with that tired meaningless response?

"BS is killing the format"
"Tarmogoyf is best blue card, ban him"
"SnT breaks the format, ban it"
"Delver breaks the format, ban it"

etc.


I was thinking more that Painter and dredge would get much stronger. Show and Tell, I feel, would get stronger since control would get that much weaker.

Combo decks would be more impacted than Control decks. I'd argue that losing Top would hurt control more than Brainstorm.

[Asthereal]

It's not the only argument not to ban Brainstorm.
There's another one. A very good one.
Want to know it?
Okay, here it goes:
"All arguments in favour of banning Brainstorm are incorrect."

LET'S GO!

A. Brainstorm is good? So what? We're not playing standard here. We want to play good cards. Don't fall for the same trick that killed Modern. And banning one good cards makes another card stand out. Shall we ban that one also, until there's no card to play anymore?
B. Brainstorm is played a lot? So what? People will always play the good cards. There's a reason we run Tarmogoyf over Grizzly Bears.
C. Banning Brainstorm would make the format healthier? No one can predict what would happen. Don't be arrogant and say you can. You just can't. Banning Brainstorm turns the whole format upside down, and there's no way of telling whether the format will become healthier or not.
D. There's too much blue being played, and Brainstorm is the reason. But if you ban Brainstorm, Ponder and Force of Will, another colour will become strongest, and everybody will switch to that colour. Now let's go ban the three cards from that colour that "warp" the format? There will always be a colour more popular than others. Using that as an argument to ban stuff is just flawed in itself.
E. Brainstorm makes combo too strong! Yes it does, but you don't want the opposite, believe me. Because combo without Brainstorm is Belcher. Or a TES/ANT variant that aims for the same thing: combo on turn one or just lose. That is MUCH more annoying to play against, because you can never predict whether you will win or lose against it. Brainstorm makes combo more consistent, but it also makes it a tad slower, giving you time to find answers. Giving you time to play a land so you can now cast Flusterstorm, instead of just praying they don't murder you turn 1 when you're on the draw. A format where you have to mull to Force of Will half the time isn't a healthy format at all.

Anything else someone wants to throw at me?

[DragoFireheart]

Here's an argument for banning Brainstorm:

It makes it too easy to cheat in tournaments by keeping an extra card ala Sleigh of Hand.

[wooboy11]

D. There's too much blue being played, and Brainstorm is the reason. But if you ban Brainstorm, Ponder and Force of Will, another colour will become strongest, and

Derp.

[Erdvermampfa]

These threads have always been the most entertaining on TheSource so I look forward on how it will turn out this round. But frankly, there's no sensible argument for NOT banning Brainstorm (which doesn't mean I advocate it). Pretty much every criteria of previous bans clearly apply to it (ubiquity, format-warping, whatever) so people have to resort to very irrational arguments which nedleeds has already listed. In the end, my guess is that there's a latent consensus that BS is obviously overpowered but that we like it that way.

[Zilla]

Since this seems to be the only argument anyone can come up with for why the card shouldn't be banned, let's get some numbers. If Brainstorm was banned, would you quit the format entirely?
Not a fan of this thread, being that it's based on a faulty premise. The assertion that this is the only viable argument in favor or Brainstorm is condescending at best and outright disingenuous at worst. Your position on the subject is rather obvious based on the way you've decided to present the topic. Other topics for which you might consider creating polls:

- Since all homosexuals are pedophiles, would you let one babysit your children?

- Since laziness is the only reason poor people exist, are you in favor of outlawing unemployment?

- Since racial minorities are the source of all crime in America, would you support an enforced curfew for non-whites?

- Why are Irish people drunk all the time?

[dsck]

Sweet didn't have do wait long for that ... can I get a

"pillar of the format"
"go play standard"
"wouldn't be legacy without it"
"skill intensive"

to go with that tired meaningless response?

pillar of the format
go play standard
wouldn't be legacy without it
skill intensive


Do you expect fresh replies when topic has words "ban" and "brainstorm"? The whole topic is more dry than a desert.

[Higgs]

I find the argument "Brainstorm reduces diversity" a flawed argument. If by this, one means that BS reduces strategic diversity they either don't understand the concept of strategy or they are delusional. If by diversity they mean the card pool or color saturation I agree with this. But the solution to this should not be to ban BS, but to shift the design mentality so that you can have synergistically whole decks that don't depend on BS-Fetchland efficiency to crush face (D&T and Elves comes to mind). For color saturation the biggest culprits for me are Delver and TNN. A green Delver and white TNN could have made the format much less disgusting in terms of blue saturation. If blue decks were penalized for playing goodstuff cards and threats which were not blue (less blue cards in the deck, less cards to pitch for FoW, even further stretched manabase), the format wouldn't have been this polarized even with Brainstorm IMO. OK we still have Tarmogoyf and SFM but when you also have SCM, Delver and TNN it's basically free to play blue in any tactical combination your heart desires.

[Asthereal]

Derp.
Ah, my apologies. I forgot about the fact that some here are unable to read an comprehend entire arguments.
Allow me to make a statement that even you will understand.

"Sometimes people advocate the banning of Brainstorm from Legacy, and it's okay to kill those people."

[Purgatory]

I would absolutely quit Legacy if Brainstorm was banned. It's my favourite card and the main reason I still play the format in lieu of Standard and Limited.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I find the argument "Brainstorm reduces diversity" a flawed argument. If by this, one means that BS reduces strategic diversity they either don't understand the concept of strategy or they are delusional. If by diversity they mean the card pool or color saturation I agree with this. But the solution to this should not be to ban BS, but to shift the design mentality so that you can have synergistically whole decks that don't depend on BS-Fetchland efficiency to crush face (D&T and Elves comes to mind). For color saturation the biggest culprits for me are Delver and TNN. A green Delver and white TNN could have made the format much less disgusting in terms of blue saturation. If blue decks were penalized for playing goodstuff cards and threats which were not blue (less blue cards in the deck, less cards to pitch for FoW, even further stretched manabase), the format wouldn't have been this polarized even with Brainstorm IMO. OK we still have Tarmogoyf and SFM but when you also have SCM, Delver and TNN it's basically free to play blue in any tactical combination your heart desires.

+1

Thank you, I agree with this, I just couldn't figure out how to word it this elegantly.

@ IBA: I didn't vote in your dumb witchhunt. People need better than you to lead a productive discussion on these topics, your attitude is incorrect to set any kind of positive environment to discuss any topic, let alone the banning of Brainstorm.

-ABC

[btm10]

These threads have always been the most entertaining on TheSource so I look forward on how it will turn out this round. But frankly, there's no sensible argument for NOT banning Brainstorm (which doesn't mean I advocate it). Pretty much every criteria of previous bans clearly apply to it (ubiquity, format-warping, whatever) so people have to resort to very irrational arguments which nedleeds has already listed. In the end, my guess is that there's a latent consensus that BS is obviously overpowered but that we like it that way.

I think this is basically right, which is why the "pillar of the format" argument is important and shouldn't be blithely written off. No one doubts for a moment that Mishra's Workshop is format warping in Vintage, but proposing its restriction is a marginal position because Workshop decks ultimately keep the format more diverse and the overall restricted list shorter. If Workshop were restricted, a whole slew of restrictions would likely follow to keep other decks, paricularly combo, in check.

Among the things that differentiates Legacy from Vintage or Modern is the legality of 4-of Brainstorm, and the decks that 4-of Brainstorm enables. So in an important way (i.e., which decks are viable), banning Brainstorm will start an almost inexorable shift toward making Legacy more like Modern because bannings have already nerfed the replacements that are merely restricted in Vintage and the ongoing creature power creep will drag the format closer to Modern because newer creatures are consistently better than the older ones while the old library manipulation/card drawing spells keep finding themselves banned for making blue "too good".

[aluisiocsantos]

Just shuffle TNN back where it came from: Commander decks, and Jund will rock your Brainstorms any time of the day.

[menace13]

Meh. Play it or gtfo. Have you seen wotc signal any other message yet?

[trino]

I wouldn't quit legacy. I run 5 control decks that utilize blue, but only one of them uses brainstorm. I would just have to redesign the deck

[Anarky87]

Nope. Been playing DnT and Merfolk. Neither plays Brainstorm, so I'd still not care. But I know people who would.

[TsumiBand]

Maybe people will just keep drawing 4 off of Brainstorm and quick hands, or only putting 1 back, and the DCI will banhammer it because no one can be trusted to just RTFC and stick to the fucking rules of the game.

I don't want Brainstorm banned, I just think that would be hi-larious. DCI announcement be all:



Explanation of Smarch 34th, 20XX B&R Changes:

In looking at the Legacy metagame over the years we noticed that Brainstorm had a curious impact on the format and the players, so we banned it. We had two basic reasons for doing this:
Two.
Explores.
Really, guys, we thought you were better than this. There isn't a single year that goes by where someone doesn't make Top 8 or better by loosely palming "three or so" cards off the top of their deck and then placing "two-ish" cards back on top. If you feel like showing each individual card drawn is that big a pain in the ass, you should probably switch to Checkers -- though we're pretty sure you'll find ways to make that an obfuscational game of 'It Isn't Illegal If You Don't Get Caught' as well. Christ on a cream-puff!
This isn't The Cosby Show, guys; we try to keep our card games fair and stick to the rules, and when that doesn't happen thanks to greedy players with no compunction about being cheatyface buttholes, this is what you get. Keep finding ways to fudge the gamestate, I dare you. I'll ban every Blue spell that has the word "card" on it. You watch. Go ahead. Fuck you.
In closing: enjoy your 'Modern + Show and Tell' metagame, losers. You earned it.

[from Cairo]

I wouldn't quit. I don't play Brainstorm decks, but I am happy to have Brainstorm in the format

[PirateKing]

I would be upset, but I wouldn't quit.

[ShiftyKapree]

If you ban brainstorm you might aswell kill the format all together, look at vintage after brainstorm being restricted, now no one plays. I would certainly quit. I quit Vintage when they restricted Brainstorm and Ponder and moved to legacy

[Humphrey]

Id just fix the cardname to Ancestral Brainstorm at this point.

[theBloody]

http://www.chatslang.com/images/shortcuts/twitch/admins/dansgame.png
No. But I would be sad panda.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

If they ban the Brainstorm and with Brainstorm I mean all forms of good cantrips, because if they do not antother would take over the spot imidiatley, I will quit playing Legacy.

The Reason is simple Cntrips increase consictency and each control deck needs it to become playable, since I play only control and mostley blue becasue its my favorite
Color and strategy approach I can say that Cantrips are essential for this decks.
This means if Cantrips are banned Combo and Aggro Decks will become stronger and the Format will become less interative and more boring because no one will play Control
without libary manipulation and engough cnsotency to make shure they get their answers for your plan.
So the rsulting Format will be dominated by combo because it is faster and this means you can just throw a dice and quit the game.
In such a format I don´t want to play.

Best regards Teveshszat

[Sansian]

I'd honestly be tempted to quit the game entirely, sell my collection, and put a down payment on a house because it would show that WotC has finally allowed the same crowd who cried foul about everything good in Modern to ruin Legacy as well. If you want to ban the card that makes you sad, go after TNN, or you can be an adult about it and learn to play around things. Chances are that bad decks will still be bad in a format without brainstorm.
Further to the point of people cheating... What competent player doesn't watch their opponent intently during an opposing Brainstorm? I don't care about sleight of hand and obfuscation-- you can learn a lot about what's going on just based upon they way that they choose which cards to return. The same horrible logic applies to their drawstep once every turn. Should we ban drawsteps for fear of unscrupulous players drawing additional cards? Simply put if you don't have an exact count of every card in your opponent's hand at any given point in the game, you're giving up advantage and opening yourself up to exploitation.

[YamiJoey]

I'd have to for a short while seeing as the only deck I own is UW Control, and without Brainstorm it gets significantly worse. I'd probably end up playing Ponder and Preordane, or switching to a Delver variant with similar.

[Gheizen64]

I'd honestly be tempted to quit the game entirely, sell my collection, and put a down payment on a house because it would show that WotC has finally allowed the same crowd who cried foul about everything good in Modern to ruin Legacy as well. If you want to ban the card that makes you sad, go after TNN, or you can be an adult about it and learn to play around things. Chances are that bad decks will still be bad in a format without brainstorm.
Further to the point of people cheating... What competent player doesn't watch their opponent intently during an opposing Brainstorm? I don't care about sleight of hand and obfuscation-- you can learn a lot about what's going on just based upon they way that they choose which cards to return. The same horrible logic applies to their drawstep once every turn. Should we ban drawsteps for fear of unscrupulous players drawing additional cards? Simply put if you don't have an exact count of every card in your opponent's hand at any given point in the game, you're giving up advantage and opening yourself up to exploitation.

Those kinds of answers are amazing. You read those basically every time:

- stop whining about the format being dominated by a strategy and adapt:

adapt by playing another blue deck? Yes please. Miracles vs Delver all days every days. Amazing. I guess you called for people "adapting" when we had tinker+mirrodin extended era, necro winter and combo summer, or god spare me, the fucking Lin Sivvi Standard of holy shit that's boring.

- without brainstorm every cantrip has to be banned:

This is another amazing example of logical fallacy. Why you'd even think that. The main problem with brainstorm is that it draw 3 in combination with many cards, dodge discard and is an instant. The 2 next best cantrips can't dodge discard, can't draw 3 in any circumstance, and aren't instant. They're league apart. This is like saying that since Ancestral is banned every blue cantrip has to. It's a non-sequitur reasoning that has no basis in reality.

- bad decks will still be bad in a format without brainstorm:

this is amazing. Or maybe it didn't dawn to you that there are many T1.5 deck that could be T1 if brainstorm isn't there? This is like stating that poors will be forever poors even if give free educations to all. The status quo is child of the current situation, if that were to change, the status quo would too. I can tell you, right now, right here, that DnT is a T1 deck that was killed by TNN and would become T1 again if blue were nerfed (banning fucking TNN).

- without brainstorm, we're playing modern or any other iteration of the famous: go play modern and stfu

Why, i'd like very much to continue playing with my wastes, duals, and FoW, to spin my tops for perfect topdecks in every color, as well as using my sylvan library, and powering out hymns at people. I'd also still like very much to see storm, and elves! with cradle, or SnT, or DnT, or Reanimator, hell i've even grown somewhat affectionate to Delver decks. Not a single one of those archetypes are possible in modern, and never will be. Legacy would continue to be an incredibly unique and powered format, even without Brainstorm compared to modern. The two aren't even comparable. Miracle would still have 4 SDT to set up their miracles, as well as probably ponder, Jace and whatsnot.

Not in the post i've answered to, but still relevant and often found:

- BS is a pillar of legacy

This is purely a subjective argument. I liked very much playing with MM, and i've advocated with all of myself against its ban, but it got banned. I accepted the fact, and played on. I still believe that in the end MM would've been a positive influence on the format, but its presence was considered too pervasive by WotC and it made too many top decks blue. Now the blue dominance is greater than in MM era, and BS penetrance in T8 is higher than MM ever was. And not for 1 month, but i believe it's the third month straight now (more like 2 since we had no tournaments during the festivities).
But apparently you can't even debate for its ban because it's suddendly a pilar. You know what was also a pillar of Legacy? Survival. It got axed, even if it was considered a core card for the format for many years. You know this is just shifting the objective from objective facts to subjective one, basically you argue out of faith that BS shouldn't be banned. Scientific reasoning be damned.

- banning BS would empower blazing fast combo

Hint: the reason blazing fast "suicide" combo is not good is not because you can brainstorm a FoW on T1. It's because it lose to itself so many times, and lose to too many random things like a T2 thalia or a T1 waste or Daze. Also, technically, you can Ponder on T1 and still dig 3 cards deep like BS, finding that FoW if you were to fear that T2 win from a suicide combo deck. In case they'd won on T1, BS wouldn't have helped anyway, and it's certainly not the reasons those decks aren't good, because they are just inconsistent as shit. The good combo decks are more consistent and here we get to the next point

- BS would weaken control

And again no. The biggest hit of an eventual BS would be 2-cards based combo decks, or, more specifically, SnT and Reanimator. Control would still have top for absurd card selection all game long, and wouldn't lose as much by being more vulnerable to discard. Discard more efficient, would also AGAIN, weaken non-redundant combo even more, meaning the best combo decks would be decks like Elves!, Enchantress, and Storm that would still be good enough since it's not as weak against discard as Rean and SnT. In terms of how much archetypes lose power, it goes like this: (most)Combo->Tempo->Control/Midrange->Aggro. The end results of this is obviously not predictable, but control wouldn't be the biggest loser of it at all for sure. 18 lands + 4 BS would be the decks hit the more by it.

- i like playing with BS

This, in the end, is the only reasonable argument i can see. Because:

- the card is at the highest penetration ever seen, and, differently from lands, it doesn't enable diverse strategies, but basically lock the format on one color, by making fragile combo better and by making tempo better. This means... da ba dee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA52uNzx7Y4)
- being a pillar of a format doesn't mean shit when the format was created specifically to avoid the issues that Vintage had, aka excessive dependance on certain cards
- being skilltesting is non-true unless you consider sleight of hand being skilltesting since you can cheat more with it compared to ponder and preordain. Portent, Preordain and Ponder have all a much more complex skilltree of decision behind it, with the first being : do i actually use my mana since my spell is a sorcery? BS is ridicously easy in comparison since you BS end of turn, put back 2 useless cards, shuffle deck: you just casted ancestral recall, well played my skill intensive padawan!
- reducing variant is also false because SDT reduce variance much more. The problem here is purely of power level. Ponder can actually see you 4 cards deep in your deck, meaning it's actually MORE variance-reducing if you really want a single card. But here the problem is the card is essentially an ancestral, a card which is clearly overpowered in concern to otehr cards in the format


It also help that all the time i post in this thread, i write endless walls of text, and the most of the post i read are snarky one-liners with 0 context and attack based on NOTHING. Those always reassure me of the fact that i'm not in the wrong.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've probably put more effort into tracking the data of the format and of color balance and card play than anyone else over the years, and have repeatedly made essay-length responses to peoples' objections.

The number of knee-jerk ad hominem attacks that, unlike what I do, are actually ad hominem, trying to say that people should ignore me because I'm supposedly just trolling, is depressing and forces me to recognize that people who know that they are wrong but don't want to admit it are incapable of acting in good faith.

So I'm just not going to bother anymore.

By every criteria Wizards has ever set forth, Brainstorm deserves to be banned. It is dominant and ubiquitous, it exerts enormous swinging power over games, it empowers degenerate combo decks in particular.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Maybe people will just keep drawing 4 off of Brainstorm and quick hands, or only putting 1 back, and the DCI will banhammer it because no one can be trusted to just RTFC and stick to the fucking rules of the game.

I don't want Brainstorm banned, I just think that would be hi-larious. DCI announcement be all:

I've never thought of this particular argument before, but it's an interesting thought.

[Barook]

I think the problem goes way deeper than just Brainstorm being a powerful card. It's Wizards new design philosophy.

Traditionally, blue had the best disruption suite (FoW + Daze) and the best card filtering (Brainstorm, Ponder, etc). But since Wizards recently started to shit out the best creatures in blue as well (Delver, TNN, Griselbrand if you want to count him as blue creature due to S&T), the balance is completely gone and we gone from 50% BS meta to about 70% BS meta. And since I doubt that Wizard is going to stop printing ridiculous creatures, it all just goes downhill from here if things are left unchecked since blue is now unrivaled in pretty much every aspect of the game as far as Legacy is concerned.

There needs to a paradigm shift that non-combo creatures aren't untouchable anymore. TNN needs to go since it's the course for this mess in the first place. Other stuff has to follow in the future, if necessary.


If you ban brainstorm you might aswell kill the format all together, look at vintage after brainstorm being restricted, now no one plays. I would certainly quit. I quit Vintage when they restricted Brainstorm and Ponder and moved to legacy
Vintage died because nobody plays it. It has no tournament support and the must-have staples are so limited that the prices for them are outrageous.

Legacy will go that route, too, once prices get higher and higher while SCG drops Legacy from their Opens.


If they ban the Brainstorm and with Brainstorm I mean all forms of good cantrips, because if they do not antother would take over the spot imidiatley, I will quit playing Legacy.
That's a flawed argument since BS is unique in what it does. There's no need to ban Ponder and the likes since they can't lead to blue dominance like Brainstorm does.



Theres modern for you whom dont like brainstorm.
I'd love to play Modern once they give me:

- Wasteland
- Rishadan Port
- Karakas
- Mother of Runes
- Stoneforge Mystic
- StP

I can live without Jitte, though.

[Asthereal]

Oh come on! Really, the Jund argument again?
In a format where one can easily get killed turn 1-2, Jund should NEVER be viable.
The fact that Jund was viable in the first place shows us the following:
People are idiots and too stupid to play proper combo to crush that rediculous deck.

So you would like Brainstorm to be banned? So you would rather have the winner of a massive Legacy tournament be the one who topdecks Bloodbraid Elf into Liliana best, than to have the best player win it? Awesome...

[MGB]

Heck no. Brainstorm is what makes the format interesting.

Brainstorm is one of the greatest spells to play, ever. A format without Brainstorm is just like a glorified Standard creature-fest.

[Megadeus]

Eh. Like I have said multiple times, I don't actually care whether or not they do ban brainstorm. But the numbers and everything points towards it being banned. Yes it is powerful, yes it is pretty fun to cast, but so is survival and that got the axe. Sure survival enabled being attacked on T2 by a couple of 4/3's every once in awhile (as if we dont just get derped by emrakul half the time now anyway), but it didn't seem that broken imo. BS is more played than that was and people enjoy it.

To anyone saying they would quit because their decks would be invalidated, please shut the fuck up and be creative. Your stupid Shardless BUG deck or whatever isn't dead just because of BS being banned. Regardless of what Gerry T or Todd Anderson say. Instead of bitching and whining about a very powerful card being banned that really isn't even a build around card, you could try other options. Banning SNT would kill SnT decks. Banning Survival killed Survival decks. Banning brainstorm would not kill off any deck.

[Grand Superior]

Now the blue dominance is greater than in MM era, and BS penetrance in T8 is higher than MM ever was. And not for 1 month, but i believe it's the third month straight now (more like 2 since we had no tournaments during the festivities).

None of that is really Brainstorm's fault, though. You know what card came out three months ago? Oh yeah, True-Name Nemesis. TNN pushed out most of the T1 nonblue decks like Jund and Death and Taxes from contention and the best decks against TNN decks are either combo decks that disregard it (which almost always runs blue by nature), and Tundra control decks with sweepers (blue).

TNN is what's causing the overabundance of blue decks, all of which just happen to run Brainstorm. People just don't look deep enough, see all the Brainstorms being played in the top 8s, and assume that Brainstorm is the issue. I'll say it again, Legacy was fine, balance-wise and Brainstorm-saturation-wise, before the printing of True-Name Nemesis.

True-Name Nemesis is the problem.

[Megadeus]

I wouldnt be opposed to TNN being banned. I fucking hate the card. Not really OP imo, just leads to extremely uninteractive games

[aluisiocsantos]

Oh come on! Really, the Jund argument again?
In a format where one can easily get killed turn 1-2, Jund should NEVER be viable.
The fact that Jund was viable in the first place shows us the following:
People are idiots and too stupid to play proper combo to crush that rediculous deck.

So you would like Brainstorm to be banned? So you would rather have the winner of a massive Legacy tournament be the one who topdecks Bloodbraid Elf into Liliana best, than to have the best player win it? Awesome...

For just one second I forgot Brainstorm triple top decked for one mana.

[HSCK]

Eh. Like I have said multiple times, I don't actually care whether or not they do ban brainstorm. But the numbers and everything points towards it being banned. Yes it is powerful, yes it is pretty fun to cast, but so is survival and that got the axe. Sure survival enabled being attacked on T2 by a couple of 4/3's every once in awhile (as if we dont just get derped by emrakul half the time now anyway), but it didn't seem that broken imo. BS is more played than that was and people enjoy it.

To anyone saying they would quit because their decks would be invalidated, please shut the fuck up and be creative. Your stupid Shardless BUG deck or whatever isn't dead just because of BS being banned. Regardless of what Gerry T or Todd Anderson say. Instead of bitching and whining about a very powerful card being banned that really isn't even a build around card, you could try other options. Banning SNT would kill SnT decks. Banning Survival killed Survival decks. Banning brainstorm would not kill off any deck.

I like how you tell players not to bitch and complain....while bitching and complaining about BStorm and TNN in every single post.

[jam3sbob]

I would not quit, I like playing Magic not playing Brainstorm. I like Brainstorm, I like Magic more.

[Megadeus]

I like how you tell players not to bitch and complain....while bitching and complaining about BStorm and TNN in every single post.

Remind me where I bitched about BS? I said it is strong yes. And like the numbers say, it SHOULD be in consideration for banning. As for TNN, sure I bitch about it, but at least I am not threatening to quit the format because of it like some people in here.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I like Magic. I like Brainstorm more.

[Dzra]

These debates are rather tiresome. Would it cause people to quit Legacy? Maybe some, but not all. Would it inspire less players into trying out Legacy for the first time? Given Brainstorm's widely touted "fun rating," this seems like a more reasonable prediction.

The fact of the matter is that however much the anti-Brainstorm crowd tries to sell the idea that banning Brainstorm will promote format diversity, this is simply not likely to be the case. As many have said before, color diversity is not the same thing as format/strategic diversity. Many decks can exist in Legacy only because of the unique ability to shuffle away dead cards that Brainstorm gives. Without Brainstorm, we would see more linear decks and less decks overall.

Yes, perhaps the ratio of non-Blue to Blue decks would even itself out, but not so much because more non-Blue decks suddenly become viable but because less Blue decks are viable. Most people are happy with a very diverse format that just happens to be a very Blue format. Could WotC try a little harder to balance the color pie? Sure, but banning Brainstorm isn't the way to do it.

[Barook]

Yes, perhaps the ratio of non-Blue to Blue decks would even itself out, but not so much because more non-Blue decks suddenly become viable but because less Blue decks are viable. Most people are happy with a very diverse format that just happens to be a very Blue format. Could WotC try a little harder to balance the color pie? Sure, but banning Brainstorm isn't the way to do it.
Maybe the format becomes more or less diverse, we don't have data on that, but that isn't the main issue here.

The message the GP results show right now is "Play blue or go home!" - just like "Play deck X or go home!", this isn't the sign of a healthy format. Something has to go or the format becomes even more loop-sided. And an exaggerated demand for blue duals leads to massive prices increases for said cards that will damage the format as a whole.

Want to keep Brainstorm around? Sure, but then prepare to get all the other broken blue crap Wizards puts out recently banned to keep some balance. Banning TNN is only the necessary beginning.

[ahg113]

Most people are happy with a very diverse format that just happens to be a very Blue format.

I agree with most of what you say except for the quoted. There is much gnashing of teeth, wrenching of hands and clenching of taints because "most" is too obscure in either a means of keeping or banning brainstorm (what could be construed as the very Blue format), hence the repetitive conversation.

Would it be better for MtG to design a balanced color pie? Absolutely.
Has MtG R&D given any indication they could do that? Nope.
Is banning a usable tool, even if of last resort? Yup.

As of 11:34 PM 2/17/2014 - the No's (anti-Blue format) have it, with a bare margin of 70 to a combined 66 (Yes quit + Think about it). Granted, that pole isn't worth much (I am not a scientist, is it scientific?), but as the people have spoken here...

[apple713]

the only issue with brainstorm is that it gives players a perfect opportunity to cheat.


8:47:00 Javier Dominguez Brainstorms with 1 card in hand. Puts only one card back and has three cards in hand. Mind blown how no one caught this.

http://www.twitch.tv/magic/b/503812813



unfortunately there are many players like the both of these guys. Not sure why the hell they were so concerned with what was in each other graveyard or why mr castillo flipped his graveyard over right next to his library. maybe he was trying to stack his graveyard and get "confused"


and then this happens.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bgt1XUCCEAA8bUt.png

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would be pretty amused if the ease of cheating with it was the impetuous they needed to actually finally ban the damn card.

[Dzra]

I agree with most of what you say except for the quoted. There is much gnashing of teeth, wrenching of hands and clenching of taints because "most" is too obscure in either a means of keeping or banning brainstorm (what could be construed as the very Blue format), hence the repetitive conversation.

I don't think it's that a ton of people are wishing Brainstorm would be banned. I think the reason this argument keeps popping up is because there is a very vocal minority of forum crawlers that dislike the format's Blue bias. The vast majority of Legacy players don't read blogs, don't regularly post on forums (especially outside of their particular deck's thread), and it would never even occur to many of these players that Brainstorm would be considered by some to be a ban candidate. Whether they've ever given it much consideration or not, the silent majority of Legacy players is enjoying this strategically diverse and Blue-heavy format and by extension are enjoying Brainstorm.


Would it be better for MtG to design a balanced color pie? Absolutely.

I think most people would agree with this, whether for or against banning Brainstorm.


Has MtG R&D given any indication they could do that? Nope.

I think they've shown initiative to introduce anti-cantrip cards such as Thalia, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and Notion Thief. It has been hit and miss so far, but you can't say they aren't trying.


As of 11:34 PM 2/17/2014 - the No's (anti-Blue format) have it, with a bare margin of 70 to a combined 66 (Yes quit + Think about it). Granted, that pole isn't worth much (I am not a scientist, is it scientific?), but as the people have spoken here...

This poll isn't "Do you want to see Brainstorm banned?" It is "Would you rage-quit the format if Brainstorm were banned?" I would expect a large swing in the other direction if the poll were phrased differently.


8:47:00 Javier Dominguez Brainstorms with 1 card in hand. Puts only one card back and has three cards in hand. Mind blown how no one caught this.

If you notice during the video, unfortunately most of the judges are off to the side talking while this occurred (presumably because of the prior ruling that just happened). I don't think it's possible to prove that he was actually cheating, but either way, I don't think such sloppy play should go unpunished.

[apple713]

If you notice during the video, unfortunately most of the judges are off to the side talking while this occurred (presumably because of the prior ruling that just happened). I don't think it's possible to prove that he was actually cheating, but either way, I don't think such sloppy play should go unpunished.

its obvious he is cheating. his hand plays out perfectly and uses every card he keeps. Never in my 16 years of playing have I even been confused about what brainstorm says and mistakenly just not put back the correct amount of cards.

i really hope his title is stripped from him.


EDIT, just found this on another thread


I'm rooting for Javier. I played him in round 4 (where I got my first loss). He was really nice and a very good player. I liked how precise he was in his play, announcing each trigger, explaining exactly what he was doing with Sylvan Library, and so on.

He plays a Team America version which he tuned for the mirror match, replacing 2 Tombstalker with 2 Dark Confidant, and playing 3 FoW / 3 Liliana MD. I misread him, thinking he was playing Drew Levin's "Blue Jund", and got surprised when he started playing Delvers.


apparently he is a really sharp player. Seems unlike him to misplay brainstorm

[Dzra]

Never in my 16 years of playing have I even been confused about what brainstorm says and mistakenly just not put back the correct amount of cards.

While I agree with you there, I also can't imagine why he'd want to cheat when he knows he's on camera and is sitting at 17 facing only an unflipped Delver with a Delver of his own. Is it really worth risking a game loss or disqualification to cast Diabolic Edict one turn sooner? Then again, who knows what a cheater is thinking at any point? Either way, I'd like to see some action done.

[apple713]

While I agree with you there, I also can't imagine why he'd want to cheat when he knows he's on camera and is sitting at 17 facing only an unflipped Delver with a Delver of his own. Is it really worth risking a game loss or disqualification to cast Diabolic Edict one turn sooner? Then again, who knows what a cheater is thinking at any point? Either way, I'd like to see some action done.

thats and interesting perspective. While there is no need to in that moment maybe cheating is a habitual thing like stealing. Maybe there is just a thrill of getting away with it. I don't know.

[sdematt]

thats and interesting perspective. While there is no need to in that moment maybe cheating is a habitual thing like stealing. Maybe there is just a thrill of getting away with it. I don't know.

He WOULD be putting a second card back on top is the exact moment when the opponent is looking away. Likely the opponent didn't catch it because he was...just not looking. But, I don't see his eyes glancing up to check to see if he's looking, so for me, it's possible that it was an honest mistake or he's just REALLY bold.

We'll see what happens, but after looking at the footage, only one card went back. /Obviously.

-Matt

[Purgatory]

and then this happens.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bgt1XUCCEAA8bUt.png

And the last sentence in the info text on the first page of coverage:

"Until next time, we say good bye and ... Congratulations to Javier Dominguez, champion of Grand Prix Vienna 2013!"


What?

[death]

Playing in a format where Brainstorm exists (control/midrange/tempo-oriented meta), i think, is the best thing. Games have become more challenging, than say a decade or two ago. If Brainstorm is banned, I predict the meta will shift to combo (and aggro) decks goldfishing by turn 4. Control/tempo-ish strategies would suck and legacy will be anything but interesting or interactive. It'll be a glass cannon shootout format, storm in particular and gy-based strategies.

Let's not assume that combo will be weakened because of discard effects without Brainstorm, because combo can play white Leyline and remain virtually untouched by discard, and, them too can play discard, which gives them the upper hand against control decks that have no way of digging (or hiding) permission, and library- or mana-fixing in a pinch.

[thefreakaccident]

And the last sentence in the info text on the first page of coverage:

"Until next time, we say good bye and ... Congratulations to Javier Dominguez, champion of Grand Prix Vienna 2013!"


What?

Javier Dom. is exactly the type of player the world economy tries to inspire. Look into your opponent's eyes confidently while you cheat them. I know I would if I cared to win enough. Remember, the cheater who doesn't get caught has a better chance of winning than those poor honest shmucks!

That's the problem with 'pro' magic, people will use any means, dishonest or otherwise, to win. If the game was less expensive to buy in, it would simply be more about the plays and showmanship, and people wouldn't pull this shit.

It is slightly understandable from spectators when someone cheats for money, much less when it is simply for their pride. That's the difference from simply being disreputable, to people not even wanting to look at you from embarrassment.

This is also why I feel sports shouldn't pay hardly anything, and those who waste their lives playing them competitively should do it not for the money, but just the recognition. I bet there would be less of them juicing it up too.


In regards to the OP, I full heartedly agree with Zilla's assessment.

[Hof]

the only issue with brainstorm is that it gives players a perfect opportunity to cheat.
Banning cards for giving "players opportunity to cheat" is absurd.

Brainstorm and similar spells or abilities that draw multiple cards always require extra attention from both players, because both players are fully responsible for keeping a legal game state.

When your opponent asks for the first time if Brainstorm resolves, notice (or ask) how many cards are in his hand. Then after Brainstorm has finished resolving, you can check the number again. During the resolution, if you are not able to see clearly how many cards your opponent draws or puts back, ask him or her to show the cards more clearly. Not because you think he or she is cheating, but because you are responsible for the legal game state, and you can't do that if you can't see clearly how many cards are drawn (or put back on top).

When you resolve Brainstorm, please make an effort to let your opponent and everyone else who might be watching see clearly what is going on. For example, draw the three cards face down on the table. Then put them in hand one at a time. Then put two cards from your hand back on the table face down. Then put them on top of library one at a time. This whole maneuver takes 10 seconds.

[Zombie]

I think most people would agree with this[a balanced color pie], whether for or against banning Brainstorm.

I think they've shown initiative to introduce anti-cantrip cards such as Thalia, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and Notion Thief. It has been hit and miss so far, but you can't say they aren't trying.

Sadly, hate cards are not how you do it, actually workable card selection in other colors is how you do it. More GSZ's, red looting where the discard is part of the effect, not the cost so you can use it to grab a card to an empty hand. In that vein seeing Survival gone was sad because it was another great nonblue card selection spell, and required a heavy green commitment. But given the horrors WotC prints nowadays...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Repeating on a theme I hit on a couple of years ago (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22582-A-brief-but-instructive-analysis-of-Brainstorm-s-performance-in-SCG-Opens), let's examine the performance of individual cards within the top 16 of large events for which we have data. For this I am using SCG opens since TNN became legal at the beginning of November, and the two Legacy GPs since (with the GPs counting double to reflect larger size.) I would have included the BoM data if it were available but their site sucks.

(If you want the tl;dr skip to the last chart)

Consistent with the data from last time, Brainstorm and Force continue to be both ubiquitous and highly performing at every level of the tournament data. It might be easy to gloss over but the combination bears dwelling on; usually the more popular a strategy is, the more you would expect diminishing returns as people prepare counters to that strategy. This is in fact a large part of what drives the change in the metagame, as many decks come and go (the data bears witness to the dramatic death of Maverick and Death and Taxes as relevant contenders, for instance.)

It won't let me post the excel sheet because this forum sucks but here's a snapshot of the raw data:

http://i.imgur.com/YZcOY1v.png

Here's how it breaks down in graph form, showing step by step advancement of each card from top 16 to wins:

http://i.imgur.com/uwErm50.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/c6osLMY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Nb8SPLm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/81MHACs.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xz1fH4L.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XXCZD0y.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JDejarR.jpg

Note: I included Karakas in colorless, because, land, and it could be run in any color deck; but it is probably has a 1:1 correlation with white decks and should be included as a white card. Well, I'm not fixing the data now, it's almost 7 am. Modify your perceptions of the colorless/white balance as it suits you.

http://i.imgur.com/T76yZzd.jpg

And finally, averaging together the performance of all measured cards without weighting for field presence (so Brainstorm and Stifle affect performance equally):

http://i.imgur.com/Gij4N1j.jpg

Some take aways from the data:

- Red is the least played but best performing secondary color, although for reasons already mentioned with more of a red presence this might change as you get diminishing returns.

- TNN has probably had an extensive impact on the meta, but is not actually the primary beneficiary of this change, being an underperformer compared to most blue cards. Goyf has certainly suffered for its presence, and green as a whole.

- Wasteland continues to be probably drastically overplayed, the hype over Deathrite isn't really justified, Clique is actually a better performing three drop than TNN probably reflecting combo's presence, and Loam and P-Fire should see more play.

- Once-greats or at least promising cards that showed up too little to compile reliable data include Elspeth, KotR, Faithless Looting, Young Pyromance, B-Wish, pretty obviously Geist, Goblin Lackey.

And ultimately:

It shouldn't be surprising, because the data just confirms what most people should already know: Blue is dominant as a presence in the format, and still underplayed relative to its performance. What this means is that the primary reason blue isn't more played is probably just people refusing to play blue.

No particular engine or kill condition can be reasonably blamed for blue's dominance, although Delver seems like its most efficient kill condition. Blue simply has an arsenal of very efficient cards in every role at the moment. But at the core of these decks is the combination of Brainstorm and Force of Will, and very few people would suggest that Force of Will is a problem in the format.

There is no reason to believe that blue's ongoing and ever-increasing dominance over the format would be significantly checked by the banning of any single other card rather than Brainstorm, so if you think a format where the metagame is entirely blue-based into perpetuity is bad, you should be advocating either a banning of Brainstorm or a comprehensive banning of a number of problematic blue cards, probably something like Delver, TNN, SnT at a minimum.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When you resolve Brainstorm, please make an effort to let your opponent and everyone else who might be watching see clearly what is going on. For example, draw the three cards face down on the table. Then put them in hand one at a time. Then put two cards from your hand back on the table face down. Then put them on top of library one at a time. This whole maneuver takes 10 seconds.

Perhaps you are unclear on the concept of "cheating."

[Barook]

@IBA: The Top 8 of the BoM can be found here (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5945&d=234491). No Top 16, though.

[Dice_Box]

Brainstorm, the horse people keep making savoury mince out of.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wouldn't.

[ShiftyKapree]

Honestly people really need to quit bitching about Brainstorm breaking the format, that's what makes Legacy. If you don't enjoy playing in a format where you can combo off without power nine then this isn't the format for you. Anyone who bitches about the card should seriously quit playing legacy (the formats better without you anyway).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Honestly people really need to quit bitching about Brainstorm breaking the format, that's what makes Legacy. If you don't enjoy playing in a format where you can combo off without power nine then this isn't the format for you. Anyone who bitches about the card should seriously quit playing legacy (the formats better without you anyway).

I love when people lecture from a position of ignorance.

[ShiftyKapree]

I love when people lecture from a position of ignorance.

It's not being ignorant it's being truthful and honest. If the card needed to be banned it would have got the axe along time ago when the first round of Fetches were printed. Which took brainstorm to a new level. It does appear in top 8 decks at least 5 out of 8 times, but so does FOW. So is that card ban worthy too?

[aluisiocsantos]

I don't really care whether it would be banned or not, but I'd love to see how decks would look like without just this cantrip out of the way.

Most of time it looks like people are jsut terrified of not having their little poison, more like "What, what do you mean I can't have any more Coke and now I have to drink Pepsi?!?"

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's not being ignorant it's being truthful and honest. If the card needed to be banned it would have got the axe along time ago when the first round of Fetches were printed. Which took brainstorm to a new level. It does appear in top 8 decks at least 5 out of 8 times, but so does FOW. So is that card ban worthy too?

It's ignorance. There were a wide range of factors keeping blue relatively in check even until about 2008, 2009; really it's been a process of gradual accumulation, especially as blue has picked up a powerful diversity of tools. It's not even accurate to think that once fetchlands were printed, everyone immediately appreciated how much better Brainstorm had gotten. This isn't remotely the case.

The format has, for almost all of its history, not been about degenerate combo. Not that I'm sure it's very dominated by degenerate combo now, but that seems to be your point. It would be if Force was banned, though, which is something we should want to avoid. Besides, Force is only very good against the unfair decks; Brainstorm is absurd in every matchup.

[Nelis]

I actually quit because of Brainstorm. I might start playing legacy again if it was banned.

[Mr Miagi]

I love when people lecture from a position of ignorance.

You should be the last to comment on issue of ignorance.

[Arsenal]

Honestly people really need to quit bitching about Brainstorm breaking the format, that's what makes Legacy. If you don't enjoy playing in a format where you can combo off without power nine then this isn't the format for you. Anyone who bitches about the card should seriously quit playing legacy (the formats better without you anyway).

This post is everything that is wrong with the Legacy elitists. No format is ever "better" with less active participants. Much like in the fightning game community, Magic's tournament scene thrives because of the legion of average-above average players that make up the bulk of tournament entries. To say that Legacy, or any format for that matter, is better with less players is just absurd on every level.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You should be the last to comment on issue of ignorance.

It's true, I have nothing more on my side than mounds of data and having played in the format since it was 1.5.

I look forward to learning from the guy whose idea is to bring back Solidarity with Three Wishes tech.

So please, expound on your views.

[DragoFireheart]

If Brainstorm was a woman, it'd be a beaten up whore in Las Vegas, wallowing in misery at the thought of being simultaneously used and hated by everyone with only the comfort of heroin to help it sleep at night.

[Mr Miagi]

It's true, I have nothing more on my side than mounds of data and having played in the format since it was 1.5.

I look forward to learning from the guy whose idea is to bring back Solidarity with Three Wishes tech.

So please, expound on your views.
That's my point exactly. :eyebrow:

[Blastoderm]

The fact that you can actually MAINDECK pyroblast/REB isn't a good sign....
(see second place @ GP)

[Arsenal]

The fact that you can actually MAINDECK pyroblast/REB isn't a good sign....
(see second place @ GP)

Joe Lossett has been maindecking Pyro/REB for months in his Miracles list. Is the the "adaptation" that the pro-TNN people are advocating for?

[dunk]

We are definitely at the point where Brainstorm is not just an everymen's Ancestral, but more of a dexterity card like Chaos Orb.

I really liked Brainstorm and the whole format a lot in the past, but during the last 2 years it's gotten worse... and it all started with Miracles and Griselbrand entering the format. A lot of damage has been done, and I'm not sure if a Brainstorm ban could repair it. Nevertheless I don't care whether Brainstorm gets banned or not as the format is on a low point for me right now anyway, so it can't get worse no matter what happens... I hope.

[Arsenal]

a dexterity card like Chaos Orb

Yep. I hate players who paw the top of their deck, quickly slide 3 (sometime more) indistinguishable mono-colored sleeved cards off the top directly into their hand, then start furiously shuffling their hand. Soooooo many players do this, it's maddening.

[Sansian]

Those kinds of answers are amazing.

...drivel and dreck...


It also help that all the time i post in this thread, i write endless walls of text, and the most of the post i read are snarky one-liners with 0 context and attack based on NOTHING. Those always reassure me of the fact that i'm not in the wrong.

You write an awful lot while reading very little. If you examine everything you said... You'll find that very little of it actually matches up to what I've written, but you have and agenda and if you write the most-- you must be correct. You claim that DnT would be tier 1 without tnn for example... I said that TNN actually is the problem. If I valued my time to a much lesser degree I'd take the time to dissect and actually address your fallacies and inconsistencies in long form, but you'll have to make due with this.

[Michael Keller]

Brainstorm is fine, IMO. I've never had a problem with it and think the format is fine with it. It's a skill-intensive card that has been a pillar of this format and its predecessor for years. Honestly, think of a card at this point that could possibly make the card better than fetches. It has been years. It's not going anywhere.

I just think that some of the people that bash it are closet fans of it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I wish people would stop pretending Brainstorm is a skill intensive card; it's the exact opposite. It allows people to make up for sloppy keeps and sloppy deck design for very little penalty. Compared to the decisions it lets you abdicate on, "What two cards do I need least right now" and "Hide the card I don't want to be Thoughtseized" is pretty simple fare.

Next we'll be hearing that partial mulligans are the real skill-tester, maybe we should just take a shortcut and introduce those to the game.

[Michael Keller]

I wish people would stop pretending Brainstorm is a skill intensive card; it's the exact opposite. It allows people to make up for sloppy keeps and sloppy deck design for very little penalty. Compared to the decisions it lets you abdicate on, "What two cards do I need least right now" and "Hide the card I don't want to be Thoughtseized" is pretty simple fare.

Next we'll be hearing that partial mulligans are the real skill-tester, maybe we should just take a shortcut and introduce those to the game.

In that context I agree, Jack. But what happens when you're in a situation where Brainstorming becomes an aesthetic within the game to strengthen your hand uninterrupted? What happens when you proactively decide to fire one off weighing the variables of your current play followed by next turn's play?

It has an element of bum luck in its basic fabric, but Brainstorm also has a great deal of skill involved when you already have a strong hand and need to win or protect it with. Deciding on what two cards to ship can mean the difference between winning or losing - especially if you stack them back incorrectly in anticipation of your opponents' play.

[wooboy11]

I wish people would stop pretending Brainstorm is a skill intensive card; it's the exact opposite. It allows people to make up for sloppy keeps and sloppy deck design for very little penalty. Compared to the decisions it lets you abdicate on, "What two cards do I need least right now" and "Hide the card I don't want to be Thoughtseized" is pretty simple fare.

Next we'll be hearing that partial mulligans are the real skill-tester, maybe we should just take a shortcut and introduce those to the game.

I think part of why people think it is a skill-intensive card is because you need to know when to use it. But then again, without it, you would have to think about when to use EVERY card, since you wouldn't be able to dig for copies of those so easily without BS.

[Megadeus]

In that context I agree, Jack. But what happens when you're in a situation where Brainstorming becomes an aesthetic within the game to strengthen your hand uninterrupted? What happens when you proactively decide to fire one off weighing the variables of your current play followed by next turn's play?

It has an element of bum luck in its basic fabric, but Brainstorm also has a great deal of skill involved when you already have a strong hand and need to win or protect it with. Deciding on what two cards to ship can mean the difference between winning or losing - especially if you stack them back incorrectly.

I think in combo this is actually even more true since your window of opportunity opens and closes so quickly. Especially with storm combo

[Michael Keller]

I mean, it sounds stupid but Brainstorm costs mana, too. If you fire one out like a Sorcery, you may have needed that available mana to combat a deck by beating them on the stack with more spells.

Timing is a key aspect of the card; that cannot be disputed.

[nedleeds]

Those kinds of answers are amazing. You read those basically every time:

<snip>

This, in the end, is the only reasonable argument i can see. Because:

- the card is at the highest penetration ever seen, and, differently from lands, it doesn't enable diverse strategies, but basically lock the format on one color, by making fragile combo better and by making tempo better. This means... da ba dee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA52uNzx7Y4)
- being a pillar of a format doesn't mean shit when the format was created specifically to avoid the issues that Vintage had, aka excessive dependance on certain cards
- being skilltesting is non-true unless you consider sleight of hand being skilltesting since you can cheat more with it compared to ponder and preordain. Portent, Preordain and Ponder have all a much more complex skilltree of decision behind it, with the first being : do i actually use my mana since my spell is a sorcery? BS is ridicously easy in comparison since you BS end of turn, put back 2 useless cards, shuffle deck: you just casted ancestral recall, well played my skill intensive padawan!
- reducing variant is also false because SDT reduce variance much more. The problem here is purely of power level. Ponder can actually see you 4 cards deep in your deck, meaning it's actually MORE variance-reducing if you really want a single card. But here the problem is the card is essentially an ancestral, a card which is clearly overpowered in concern to otehr cards in the format


It also help that all the time i post in this thread, i write endless walls of text, and the most of the post i read are snarky one-liners with 0 context and attack based on NOTHING. Those always reassure me of the fact that i'm not in the wrong.

Great summary. I'm too tired of 'pillar of the format', 'go play standard' and 'skill intensive' to post rational thoughts anymore. The best part is I'm usually advocating unbanning some other cards as a first step, and they immediately step in and say I'm saying 'ban brainstorm'. I'm usually saying 'based on other cards on the banned list, Brainstorm based on power level and ubiquity deserves to be on there far more than many that are on there'.

Most of the people touting the skill intensivity of Brainstorm are running it into the ground and playing out 5 lands in their delver decks anyway.

[Zombie]

I mean, it sounds stupid but Brainstorm costs mana, too. If you fire one out like a Sorcery, you may have needed that available mana to combat a deck by beating them on the stack with more spells.

Timing is a key aspect of the card; that cannot be disputed.

Or you could just wait. Can't wait with Ponder, Preordain, Green Sun, or casting Bob/Library.

[ahg113]

Not sure how many people will get this but...

Brainstorm:Untouchable::SEC:Best NCAAF Conference

It's a flat out lie.

The hype is an ouroboros of close-ended subjectivity. No one will say that the SEC isn't a very good conference, but the pomp surrounding preseason ratings, and the likelihood of not falling far from those ratings self-inflates and protects itself throughout the year. I'd venture that top to bottom, the PAC12 and BigXII had better seasons than the SEC. The ACC ultimately housed the conference champion, the B1G came in last, and that was justified. But the hype machine, for the SEC (& Brainstorm) has invested so much energy, that anything other than the idea Brainstorm is critical/SEC is best must be lunacy.

Well, I'm looking forward to the new NCAA playoffs. Still not a perfect system, but better than the BCS. I'd just as like to see a world without Brainstorm, and per the DCI unbanning of the banned Wild Nacatl, if it's appropriate, Brainstorm can just as easily be unbanned. Fear of the unknown is what protects Brainstorm, and hyperbolic rabble rousing of defenders.

But hey, that Skylasher really put a dent into all the Delver of Secrets and Geist of Saint Traft running around.

Spirit of the Labyrinth:Brainstorm::Skylasher:Delver of Secrets

That's what I gathered from the SCD thread about SoL.

[clavio]

I don't think blue being the most played color is a good reason to ban brainstorm. Efficient draw and counterspells are the strongest effects in the game, and they are always blue. If brainstorm got banned we would still see tons of blue.

That said brainstorm is the strongest card in the format, and it is much stronger than a few banned cards.
----------
I wouldn't quit

[Megadeus]

Not sure how many people will get this but...

Brainstorm:Untouchable::SEC:Best NCAAF Conference

It's a flat out lie.

The hype is an ouroboros of close-ended subjectivity. No one will say that the SEC isn't a very good conference, but the pomp surrounding preseason ratings, and the likelihood of not falling far from those ratings self-inflates and protects itself throughout the year. I'd venture that top to bottom, the PAC12 and BigXII had better seasons than the SEC. The ACC ultimately housed the conference champion, the B1G came in last, and that was justified. But the hype machine, for the SEC (& Brainstorm) has invested so much energy, that anything other than the idea Brainstorm is critical/SEC is best must be lunacy.

Well, I'm looking forward to the new NCAA playoffs. Still not a perfect system, but better than the BCS. I'd just as like to see a world without Brainstorm, and per the DCI unbanning of the banned Wild Nacatal, if it's appropriate, brainstorm can just as easily be unbanned. Fear of the unknown is what protects Brainstorm, and hyperbolic rabble rousing of defenders.

But hey, that Skylasher really put a dent into all the Delver of Secrets and Geist of Saint Traft running around.

Spirit of the Labyrinth:Brainstorm::Skylasher:Delver of Secrets

That's what I gathered from the SCD thread about SoL.

Basically this to an extent. Though I'm not sure if we can compare the SEC being annually overrated due to inflated preseason rankings (which should be abolished imo) to brainstorms dominance.

[Barook]

I don't think blue being the most played color is a good reason to ban brainstorm.
If blue is required to perform well (as the GP data clearly shows - the higher the standing, the higher the Brainstorm percentage gets), then it certainly is a good reason to be banned.

While TNN is the main culprit here, Brainstorm being way above the curve of pretty much everything else in the format doesn't help.

[DragoFireheart]

If blue is required to perform well (as the GP data clearly shows - the higher the standing, the higher the Brainstorm percentage gets), then it certainly is a good reason to be banned.

While TNN is the main culprit here, Brainstorm being way above the curve of pretty much everything else in the format doesn't help.

There will always be a color that is "required". Unless you force everyone to use the same deck, there will always be an imbalance.

[Michael Keller]

Great summary. I'm too tired of 'pillar of the format', 'go play standard' and 'skill intensive' to post rational thoughts anymore. The best part is I'm usually advocating unbanning some other cards as a first step, and they immediately step in and say I'm saying 'ban brainstorm'. I'm usually saying 'based on other cards on the banned list, Brainstorm based on power level and ubiquity deserves to be on there far more than many that are on there'.

Most of the people touting the skill intensivity of Brainstorm are running it into the ground and playing out 5 lands in their delver decks anyway.

I play a deck with no lands. I could care less about Delvers.

[Michael Keller]

Or you could just wait. Can't wait with Ponder, Preordain, Green Sun, or casting Bob/Library.

You could, but that's your choice. Which is the difference between winning and losing. Sometimes a main-phase Brainstorm is correct.

[Barook]

There will always be a color that is "required".
Unless you play MUD.


Unless you force everyone to use the same deck, there will always be an imbalance.
Imbalance to a certain degree is okay, since the power level between colors is vastly different, but:

There's a difference between crying why each color doesn't have a perfect 20% metagame representation and blue making up nearly 90% of the top decks, with the remaining deck in the Top 8 being about as anti-blue as it can get.

[ahg113]

Basically this to an extent. Though I'm not sure if we can compare the SEC being annually overrated due to inflated preseason rankings (which should be abolished imo) to brainstorms dominance.

Dominance isn't the focus, it's the untouchable rally cry.

[Megadeus]

Dominance isn't the focus, it's the untouchable rally cry.

Fair. I do see similarities there I suppose. Despite factual evidence backing the you, people still scream "Derp SEC R GREAT"

[ahg113]

I play a deck with no lands. I could care less about Delvers.

Niche decks like Manaless have a seat at the table, for honorary purposes. Playing games of magic on the y-axis while the majority of decks play on the x-axis devalues the point just a tad.

But I'm one of the dead. 50/50 I play Manaless at Coopersburg this Saturday. Come on postal service!

[PirateKing]

You are never going to usurp blue as the main color. The fundamental building block of the game is the card. Use it to make a spell. What does blue do? Draws cards, controls spells. As long as a deck is made up of a pile of cards, and as long as those cards pass through the stack, blue is the best color. There is no getting around that. The Boon cycle is the clearest example of what each color does, and fairly well sets the tone of all Magic to follow, for better or worse.

If you want to complain about Brainstorm as a single card, fine, sure. But if the argument is that it is the lynchpin to blue's stranglehold on the color pie, nope. The list of cards to rise and take it's place is too long. And then you start talking about banning blue as a color. If that's your argument, fine, let's talk about that. But be clear about it.

As long as spells cost mana, land will have a "stranglehold" on the game. It's pretty much that.

[DragoFireheart]

As long as spells cost mana, land will have a "stranglehold" on the game. It's pretty much that.

Lands are so oppressive towards my Burn deck, always enslaving me to tap them for Lightning Bolts.

[Megadeus]

Lands are so oppressive towards my Burn deck, always enslaving me to tap them for Lightning Bolts.

But they make your Price of Progress so good!

[Dzra]

I wish people would stop pretending Brainstorm is a skill intensive card; it's the exact opposite.

Brainstorm can be thought to operate on efficiency. If I play my Brainstorm perfectly, it's operating at 100% efficiency. On average, I'm forced to cast it early or simply don't have the correct setup to maximize Brainstorm. In these cases, Brainstorm is operating at a much lower efficiency. When Brainstorm is being used close to its potential then it is extremely powerful. The less efficient my Brainstorm, the less powerful it is. This likely seems very intuitive.

The key is that for a card like Brainstorm to be playable, its maximum efficiency has to be very, very good. In other words, if Brainstorm was only "decent" or "good" when operating under maximum efficiency then it would likely be unplayable. Brainstorm is a "swingy" card, except its swing can be mitigated by format knowledge and skill. Skilled players can try to leech out every bit of efficiency from their Brainstorms, making it a good card with more consistency.

It's no wonder that players who'd fancy themselves as skilled (as well as actually skilled players) are attracted to Brainstorm. Skilled players playing Brainstorm means more people winning with Brainstorm. More people in general playing with Brainstorm means more people winning with Brainstorm.


Spirit of the Labyrinth:Brainstorm::Skylasher:Delver of Secrets

Skylasher is actually a pretty solid card and might even be playable if there was actually a decent home for it. Spirit of the Labyrinth has a good home already. The unfortunate thing for Spirit is that it is greatly hurt by the presence of TNN, both because TNN-hate has fallout for Spirit (and DnT in general) and because TNN itself is excellent against non-evasive groundpounders like Spirit.


If blue is required to perform well (as the GP data clearly shows - the higher the standing, the higher the Brainstorm percentage gets), then it certainly is a good reason to be banned.

Why does this follow? Blue can be the most powerful color in Legacy (if played correctly) and Blue is unquestioningly the dominant color in Legacy. Why does it follow that 1. This is even a bad thing or 2. That this is so bad that it requires a Brainstorm banning? Deciding if a card is ban worthy because of its color is rather arbitrary.


More GSZ's, red looting where the discard is part of the effect, not the cost so you can use it to grab a card to an empty hand. In that vein seeing Survival gone was sad because it was another great nonblue card selection spell, and required a heavy green commitment.

Many Legacy players would love to see better cards printed in other colors, particularly ones that gave them color-flavored ways of gaining card selection. GSZ, Bob, etc. I'd love to see Survival come back and I'd love to see better looting effects (Faithless Looting was close but it should have cantripped rather than been CD).


There is no reason to believe that blue's ongoing and ever-increasing dominance over the format would be significantly checked by the banning of any single other card rather than Brainstorm, so if you think a format where the metagame is entirely blue-based into perpetuity is bad, you should be advocating either a banning of Brainstorm or a comprehensive banning of a number of problematic blue cards, probably something like Delver, TNN, SnT at a minimum.

Two things to take from this:

1. I wouldn't necessarily say that a Blue-dominant format is a bad thing simply because we arbitrarily decide that the color pie should be equalized.

2. Likely it is correct that no single banning would end Blue's dominance. New printings rather than bans of any type will likely be the best solution.

[FieryBalrog]

Yes, I like to play formats where all powerful decks don't revolve around a single color.

No, your mediocre pet deck is not a powerful deck.


. I wouldn't necessarily say that a Blue-dominant format is a bad thing simply because we arbitrarily decide that the color pie should be equalized.


A basic tenet of good game design is to not have the supposedly symmetrical design of your game turn out to be completely and laughably lopsided in reality.

I'd rather play Brood War than Warcraft 2 Orcs & Humans any day, because no matter how skill intensive bloodlust mirror matches are, it's fucking boring.

[Megadeus]

If looting said, draw 3 discard 2 with no flashback, would it have been bonkers?

[ahg113]

You are never going to usurp blue as the main color. The fundamental building block of the game is the card. Use it to make a spell. What does blue do? Draws cards, controls spells. As long as a deck is made up of a pile of cards, and as long as those cards pass through the stack, blue is the best color. There is no getting around that. The Boon cycle is the clearest example of what each color does, and fairly well sets the tone of all Magic to follow, for better or worse.

If you want to complain about Brainstorm as a single card, fine, sure. But if the argument is that it is the lynchpin to blue's stranglehold on the color pie, nope. The list of cards to rise and take it's place is too long. And then you start talking about banning blue as a color. If that's your argument, fine, let's talk about that. But be clear about it.

As long as spells cost mana, land will have a "stranglehold" on the game. It's pretty much that.

There are niche arguements to be made to counter that thought process. Spells with alternative casting costs, phyrexian mana, uncounterable spells, split second, dredge type effects, etc.

The problem is Brainstorm for a list of articulated reasons IBA and Ghezen have supplied.

Along with Brainstorm, a culprit cause for blue dominance is the move into aggro territory. What historically has been a slow fatty flier color (Air Elemental, Mahamoti Djinn, has been replaced with sleek newness (Delver of Secrets > Flying Men, True-Name Nemesis > Daring Apprentice, and to a smaller extent Snapcaster Mage > Voidmage Prodigy) that warps the game.

[Dzra]

If looting said, draw 3 discard 2 with no flashback, would it have been bonkers?

No.
Hell, make it say Draw 3, Discard 2 and still have a Flashback. Perhaps up the Flashback to :3::r: or make it :r::r::r:. Now we're talking.

[ahg113]

Skylasher is actually a pretty solid card and might even be playable if there was actually a decent home for it. Spirit of the Labyrinth has a good home already. The unfortunate thing for Spirit is that it is greatly hurt by the presence of TNN, both because TNN-hate has fallout for Spirit (and DnT in general) and because TNN itself is excellent against non-evasive groundpounders like Spirit.

1. You talk around Skylasher being solid if there were a home for it. But there isn't a home, and if good players gravitate toward good cards to increase their chances of winning, the card would be getting played, correct?

2. We need to ban TNN to make SoL better? Then SoL will fight cantrip/draw effects more efficiently? Assuming MtG R&D knew about TNN while they were developing SoL, they could've printed SoL with 2 toughness, so it wouldn't die to the same -1/-1 effects that kill TNN, but they didn't, and Bob's your uncle.

[Barook]

If looting said, draw 3 discard 2 with no flashback, would it have been bonkers?
In the wake of this discussion, I actually had the same thought.

Can't pitch to FoW, but gets rid of chaff without fetchlands and fuels GY strategies.

And yes, I do believe it would be bonkers. And the sad part is that blue decks would pick it up. Just imagine RUG Delver or combo decks running red powered by this - the horror!

[Dzra]

What historically has been a slow fatty flier color has been replaced with sleek newness (Delver of Secrets True Name-Nemisis).

I can get behind this. I think TNN was a colossal mistake in terms of the meta, as well from a design perspective. Delver was almost close to as bad for the meta. None of this makes me think the format would be better without Brainstorm, however.


1. You talk around Skylasher being solid if there were a home for it. But there isn't a home, and if good players gravitate toward good cards to increase their chances of winning, the card would be getting played, correct?

Some cards are good enough or unique enough that entire strategies can be built around them. Skylasher is good, but it is not that good. If a deck already existed then it is probably good enough to slide right in, but it is not impactful enough to create a whole new deck around it.


2. We need to ban TNN to make SoL better? Then SoL will fight cantrip/draw effects more efficiently? Assuming MtG R&D knew about TNN while they were developing SoL, they could've printed SoL with 2 toughness, so it wouldn't die to the same -1/-1 effects that kill TNN, but they didn't, and Bob's your uncle.

TNN was a mistake, but don't blame me. I'm just telling it as I see it.


And the sad part is that blue decks would pick it up. Just imagine RUG Delver or combo decks running red powered by this - the horror!

That's why I had the thought of making the Flashback cost double or even triple :r:. This would minimize the use of the card outside of Red heavy decks, or at least give more upside to making Red your dominant color.

[Hof]

Many Legacy players would love to see better cards printed in other colors, particularly ones that gave them color-flavored ways of gaining card selection. GSZ, Bob, etc. I'd love to see Survival come back and I'd love to see better looting effects (Faithless Looting was close but it should have cantripped rather than been CD).

Two things to take from this:

1. I wouldn't necessarily say that a Blue-dominant format is a bad thing simply because we arbitrarily decide that the color pie should be equalized.

2. Likely it is correct that no single banning would end Blue's dominance. New printings rather than bans of any type will likely be the best solution.
Well said. I agree.

I also doubt that we have seen the last of Spirit of the Labyrinth. So far I have only seen it as 'hatebear of the week' in already existing hatebear decks.
It might require a little more building around it, or a not so obvious type of deck to maximize its potential.

[Guie]

IPA,

Brainstorm is ubiquitous, agreed. Is there any deck that is unplayable because of it? Would any archetypes or strategies open up if it was banned?

Oh, and no, I wouldn't quit.



Many Legacy players would love to see better cards printed in other colors, particularly ones that gave them color-flavored ways of gaining card selection. GSZ, Bob, etc. I'd love to see Survival come back and I'd love to see better looting effects (Faithless Looting was close but it should have cantripped rather than been CD).

Two things to take from this:

1. I wouldn't necessarily say that a Blue-dominant format is a bad thing simply because we arbitrarily decide that the color pie should be equalized.

2. Likely it is correct that no single banning would end Blue's dominance. New printings rather than bans of any type will likely be the best solution.

It's a no win situation. Many of those off-color cards would just start appearing in decks with Brainstorm

[PirateKing]

...a culprit cause for blue dominance is the move into aggro territory. What historically has been a slow fatty flier color (Air Elemental, Mahamoti Djinn, has been replaced with sleek newness (Delver of Secrets > Flying Men, True-Name Nemesis > Daring Apprentice, and to a smaller extent Snapcaster Mage > Voidmage Prodigy) that warps the game.

I agree with this sentiment. While blue is best at supporting your game while limiting your opponent's, it's fundamental weakness was that it couldn't by itself win the game. Blue got shit creatures, best was overpriced versions of okay cards. Classic decks like UG thresh were not using the blue for damage. That was the point, there was the balance.

Problem is Delver and TNN.

[Zilla]

This thread has turned away from whether people would quit and is consequently indistinguishable from the ceaseless Brainstorm debate that already exists in another thread. Feel free to continue the discussion there.