Would you like to see Survival back in the format?

[Barook]

Survival of the Fittest

Many people love this card. Unfortunately, it was banned because it dominated with Vengevine before its ban. Necrotic Ooze combo was also part of the reasoning to ban it.

But times have changed. We now have

Scavenging Ooze
Phyrexian Revoker
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Rest in Peace
Surgical Extraction

among other things to handle Survival and its problematic aspects. And that doesn't even count old answers like Pithing Needle.

My question now is: Would you like to see a paradigm shift to bring Survival back, even if it means that Vengevine (maybe Ooze and other future cards) have to go?

[nedleeds]

The more apt comparison is now we have Green Sun's Zenith. They both compete for business slots. We also have Craterhoof and Natural Order which is in most cases just a faster better version of the Vengevine kill (in some cases it's not, but it's certainly comprable in terms of speed and color commitment). We have Show and Tell into Yawgmoth's Bargain and Omnijoke. We cast no spells and make a 20/20 flying indestructible turd.

In addition to what you've listed, we have

Grafdigger's Cage
Thalia

[Koby]

Fuck Vengevine, and fuck Basking Rootwalla.

I found a new set of toys:

Loyal Retainers, Griselbrand, and (Necrotic Ooze). :grin:

[Dzra]

Scavenging Ooze
Phyrexian Revoker
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Rest in Peace
Surgical Extraction
Grafdigger's Cage
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Terminus

My question now is: Would you like a paradigm shift to see Survival back, even if it means that Vengevine (and maybe Ooze) have to go?

Yes, I would love to see Survival back and I don't even think it's necessary to ban Vengevine (perhaps Ooze would necessitate a ban at some point). There are plenty of new cards printed that are very good against Survival, particularly Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace.

Survival is a great example of a card that pushes a deck to be non-Blue by making every non-creature spell in your deck a potential liability. (Similar examples that come to mind are Glimpse of Nature and Aether Vial.)

I don't just think Survival is safe to unban; I think Survival would be great for the format.

[JPoJohnson]

Fuck Vengevine, and fuck Basking Rootwalla.

I found a new set of toys:

Loyal Retainers, Griselbrand, and (Necrotic Ooze). :grin:

I would be shocked if you built a deck that DIDN'T focus on Griselbrand haha :wink:

[Scott]

Yes, I would love to see Survival back and I don't even think it's necessary to ban Vengevine (perhaps Ooze would necessitate a ban at some point). There are plenty of new cards printed that are very good against Survival, particularly Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace.

Survival is a great example of a card that pushes a deck to be non-Blue by making every non-creature spell in your deck a potential liability. (Similar examples that come to mind are Glimpse of Nature and Aether Vial.)

I don't just think Survival is safe to unban; I think Survival would be great for the format.

I don't pretend to be an expert on SotF. Is the consensus that most SotF decks today would be non-blue?

[Barook]

The only problem I see with Survival is that it's on the RL. One would expect a massive price surge a few days before a possible unban. Thanks, insider trading!

[Dzra]

I don't pretend to be an expert on SotF. Is the consensus that most SotF decks today would be non-blue?

It'd probably depend somewhat on the meta. For example, if the presence of Survival causes an increase in Storm combo then I might expect more Survival decks wanting to run FoW. In general though, the card definitely pushes a deck builder towards maximizing creature packages and minimizing spells (aka Blue cards). The latest and most successful iterations of Survival before it was banned were basically what we'd called Maverick today with the addition of Survival and Vengevine.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Would.

I'm even considering to pick up a set just in case.

[Gheizen64]

Unban Survival, MM, Black Vise, Mind Twist, Mind desire, frantic search, Earthcraft, Memory jar tomorrow plz.

Yes i'd like Surv back very much. Pretty green intensive for a weaker SnT.

[Megadeus]

I would love it. FInally got my Vengevines in the mail. Would love to use them in something that isn't completely awful

[Final Fortune]

Unban Survival, MM, Black Vise, Mind Twist, Mind desire, frantic search, Earthcraft, Memory jar tomorrow plz.

Yes i'd like Surv back very much. Pretty green intensive for a weaker SnT.

Add Skullclamp and I'd endorse this 100%, aggro needs broken shit too please.

[Gheizen64]

I think surv would mainly played in an elves! base nowadays. Time to dust off those EPlagues, and fuck you TNN :cool:

[Dreg]

Survival is an interesting card. I would like to see it again.
Pre-vengevine survival decks were something elegant. They required a decent amount of thought to play and were not unstoppable machines of death. I always liked the toolbox-style of those decks, they were a good example of proper reaction to every situation. But that might just be my personal infatuation with the deck itself.

I find Vengevine to be the real culprit.

[Gheizen64]

Add Skullclamp and I'd endorse this 100%, aggro needs broken shit too please.

Elves! would become the only possible aggro deck with clamp. Which in turn would make Enginereed plague the best card in the format, and red actually good again i think. Why not. TNN isn't the best with clamp anyway.

[Barook]

I think surv would mainly played in an elves! base nowadays. Time to dust off those EPlagues, and fuck you TNN :cool:
Maybe, but it also has a competitor in GSZ which can accel on T1.

[Final Fortune]

Elves! would become the only possible aggro deck with clamp. Which in turn would make Enginereed plague the best card in the format, and red actually good again i think. Why not. TNN isn't the best with clamp anyway.

I'll see your Elves and raise you an Affinity sir, Stoneforge Mystic wants you to jack into the Matrix.

Oh and unban Survival of the Fittest for Christ's sake, the worse thing it could do is abuse Loyal Retainers.

[Nonex]

Vengevine damaged Survival beyond repair long before the ban. Since the format's inception one could build pretty much any version of his/her choice, with any color combination, any gameplan and any creature package. You could run almost any pet card of yours and do well with it. It was very difficult to find two identical or considerably similar lists unless one player blatantly copied the other. There wasn't a specific list proved to be the best. You could adapt to any metagame that wasn't dominated by fast combo with all colors at your disposal. Survival was Johnny's dream come true.

Then Vengevine came and replaced most strategies and win conditions. Anything you could come up with was practically always inferior to simply attacking for 16 on turn 3-4. Spike entered Johnny's territory and came up with a GW list all Spikes and Timmies would later copy. All the variety in colors and roles we saw during the last years disappeared. The standard, tested, by default list had finally appeared (getting later strenghened by Necrotic Ooze). This is how Vengevine actually killed Survival.

Now, given all the years Survival has been in the format and never really dominated it, I deduce it wasn't the problem. Seeing how Vengevine has gotten no presence in Legacy except from getting in a few Elves lists, I can safely say it isn't dangerous either; so the problem can only lie in the interaction between the two, and one of them had to go. Which one should get the axe is highly subjective.

That said, even if we've received a lot of varied hate lately, and even if we could just unban Survival for the format to remain fine, I'd like to see Vengevine banned for the above reasons. I'd like to see Survival go back to its roots and become a swiss army knife again. Though that's just my opinion.

(Now that I think of it, a +Survival -Vengevine alone might not solve everything. I sure wouldn't want to see Survival decks racing to see who puts more TNNs into play in the shortest amount of time.)

[Barook]

(Now that I think of it, a +Survival -Vengevine alone might not solve everything. I sure wouldn't want to see Survival decks racing to see who puts more TNNs into play in the shortest amount of time.)
The origin of this thread is actually from the B/R discussion thread about what should be banned/unbanned to make the format healthier and more fun. Of course TNN has to go.

[apple713]

Survival is an interesting card. I would like to see it again.
Pre-vengevine survival decks were something elegant. They required a decent amount of thought to play and were not unstoppable machines of death. I always liked the toolbox-style of those decks, they were a good example of proper reaction to every situation. But that might just be my personal infatuation with the deck itself.

I find Vengevine to be the real culprit.

Unfortunately in these situations you are forced to ban the enabler which was survival. Eventually it will enable something else they print and become a repeat offender.

I disagree with their decision but i understood it at the time. Its time to unban it

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

In some fantasy land in which all of the offending graveyard-shenanigans are banned instead of Survival? Sure, why not? It was a really fun card and it was a shame that the graveyard interactions got the toolbox funstuff banned. In this land of enchantment and wonder, Wizards actually cares about Legacy and works to design cards in harmony with the format, so as to not overpower anyone's pet deck nor squash them out of the format.

But in reality...no, I don't want it back. The (potential) graveyard interactions plus tutoring is too potent a combination.

Gravehate was an anemic response to a deck centered around tutoring up anything they needed. Congrats, you stopped only one avenue of attack with your RiP/DRS/whatever...they can still switch to a beatdown plan with almost no tempo lost. Or they can merely tutor up a counter to your crappy hate permanent, then steamroll you.

Reminder, hate is only good if it cripples the deck you are playing against, or at least impacts all of it's lines of play. Dropping Thalia against Storm works as Storm certainly isn't running a lot of critters to count to nine (excluding some goofy SI holdouts from the good days). It impacts all of their options. Same with gravehate against Dredge, which really can't do much outside the 'yard. Gravehate against Survival just tells them it's time to switch plans, which is no sweat off their backs given that the eponymous card is a repeatable tutor.

Like most cards currently on the ban-list, Survival isn't going to do anything good for the format, beside titillate those with a fetish for shorter banlists.

But, quickly back into fantasy land, it would be pretty cool to see a "fixed" Survival that mandates exiling the creature card as opposed to discarding it. Allows for interesting toolbox decks without the risk of degenerate interactions and isn't trapped behind the Reserve List. But like I said, fantasy land. Wizards doesn't print "fixed" versions of old powerhouses anymore...they just stick them on creatures and call it a day. Hello Fauna Shaman!

[Gheizen64]

I don't even think you'd play Vengevines. Just add 4 Survival, 1 retainer, 1 Grizzly to a lot of existing shells like BUG.

[thecrav]

sdematt is gonna cream his pants when he sees this thread.

[sdematt]

sdematt is gonna cream his pants when he sees this thread.

/Cream.

-Matt

[Erdvermampfa]

The real problem with Survival of the Fittest are those costless creatures like Ornithopter, Memnite and also Basking Rootwalla which make it too easy to abuse Vengevine.

[Amon Amarth]

It's worth noting that Necrotic Ooze can draw you cards and you don't even have to worry about losing your GB to a Plow or something.

[Vacrix]

I preferred the format where Survival and Vengevine was the rape to what we have to deal with now. Honestly, I wish Wizards would be more careful with how they ban and unban things like they do. It affects the long run of the metagame. Now instead of relatively difficult to play storm combo decks like ANT/TES.. we have show me Grizz, scoop. THEN they print things based around the metagame they manipulate instead of listening to legacy players who know way better than they do. I mean, most Legacy players have an agenda but its like.. why did I vote yes on this? Because I know there are people who play Legacy who want to play with this card and Wizards of the Coast shouldn't really be allowed to say they can't play with their favorite card.

Also, no love for Frantic Search? I'd say, ban Show and Tell.. and unban Frantic Search. We have enough graveyard hate to deal with Reanimator playing Search.. and the tempo decks will hardly get anything out of it with Daze in the control mirror, and Flusterstorms post-board. This card is terrible in everything but blue storm and it almost has the cards it needs to be competitive again in builds according to the pilot.

[thefreakaccident]

Survival of the Fittest was the first truly competitive deck I played as a kid. Bouncing gilded drakes to my hand with tradewind riders felt amazing... Unfortunately, I don't think ATS could ever make a comeback.

So, long story short, if they brought Survival again, I might actually not want to sell my tropical islands. :)

[civet five]

Survival of the Fittest was the first truly competitive deck I played as a kid. Bouncing gilded drakes to my hand with tradewind riders felt amazing... Unfortunately, I don't think ATS could ever make a comeback.

So, long story short, if they brought Survival again, I might actually not want to sell my tropical islands. :)

I've long been a proponent of unbanning Survival, especially in a world where Show and Tell into Griselbrand is considered ok and 3/1 "Protection from Player" actually exists. Survival makes creature decks better and opens up many different variations of toolbox or swarm strategies.

Also, load up on Squees if you want to speculate!

[Wilkin]

Maybe.....depending on what cards you are banning. I'm assuming those cards being banned are related to SOTF somehow..... i.e. Vengevine.

The problem is Wizards aren't going to stop printing silly creatures and when they design creatures that are in standard I don't think they consider too much what effect they have on older formats. And of course, Wizards really doesn't like tutors. Like banning Mystical tutor. SOTF is a repeatable tutor.

But if you were to say ban Vengevine, I think you could give it a shot. See how the format is effected. As mentioned earlier, Show and tell into Griselbrand is still considered ok and that is pretty busted.

And to the poster that thinks someone is going to tutor for TNN's with SOTF. Sure, could happen. But I'd be far more worried about Loyal Retainers plus Griselbrand or Necrotic Ooze combo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's worth saying that it is an absolute, complete, and utter joke for Survival to be banned while Show and Tell + Griselbrand remains legal. Even with Vengevine and Necrotic Ooze around. And if you they wanted to ban those two as the price for Survival's return, which I'd be fine with (although I don't think it's necessary off the bat, but whatever,) then it's not even a sane comparison, SnT is the much more obnoxious and unfun/non-interactive enabler.

[Poron]

with the rise of Deathrite Shaman, Miracle (RiP) and Death and Taxes (Revoker), yes... probably SotF doesn't have a real reason to be banned today

[Megadeus]

The real problem with Survival of the Fittest are those costless creatures like Ornithopter, Memnite and also Basking Rootwalla which make it too easy to abuse Vengevine.

Except then you have to play shitty cards like Ornithopter, Memnite, and Basking rootwalla in your deck.

[DragoFireheart]

Between all the anti-graveyard from the board AND main deck along with Decay, unbanning it would be fine.

[civet five]

Also, I dont know if people are remembering how mana intensive SotF is, but most decks aren't just going to sit around and let you spend 4-5 mana over 2 turns while you durdle and fill your graveyard.

As for Loyal Retainers and Ooze shenanigans, I'm fine with those as its just another reanimator-type combo. Ooze without Retainers is boltable, and Ooze itself costs 4 mana.

[Megadeus]

Also you have to be playing with forests.

[Koby]

Also, I dont know if people are remembering how mana intensive SotF is, but most decks aren't just going to sit around and let you spend 4-5 mana over 2 turns while you durdle and fill your graveyard.

As for Loyal Retainers and Ooze shenanigans, I'm fine with those as its just another reanimator-type combo. Ooze without Retainers is boltable, and Ooze itself costs 4 mana.

Mana intense you say? Just add Black Lotus!
LED UG VV (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=90&iddeck=826)

[clavio]

Fuck no!

[civet five]

Mana intense you say? Just add Black Lotus!
LED UG VV (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=90&iddeck=826)

Thanks for reminding me of this, I forgot there was this build. Though I still don't see this as that busted - you're fundamentally Elves!+Belcher, which I argue the format can handle with currently played sideboard cards. Not to mention you still die to turn2 Emrakul or Reanimated Griselbrand or TES or a timely EPlague

[nedleeds]

Except then you have to play shitty cards like Ornithopter, Memnite, and Basking rootwalla in your deck.


Don't forget powerful and broken interactions with LED like 4/4 Green blank text box for 3.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Are people serious when they complain about things like LED + Survival, is it for realz realz.

[nedleeds]

... to be fair to those who fear SurvivalMadness.dec there are EIGHT arrogant wurms now ... far more intimidating then getting turn 3 trample hoofed for a billion, or a turn 3 lifelink flying bargain ...

[Barook]

... to be fair to those who fear SurvivalMadness.dec there are EIGHT arrogant wurms now ... far more intimidating then getting turn 3 trample hoofed for a billion, or a turn 3 lifelink flying bargain ...
Or watching Black Lotus into Demonic Tutor into Ad Nauseam for the win on T2.

[nedleeds]

GTFOOH. That sounds way more fair than a few basic forests, a 1G enchantment and a 1GG enchantment making squirrels.

[force_of_phil]

Bringing back SotF, Frantic Search, and Black Vise could shake things up a little, and I think in a good way. It may be that they all end up like Land Tax, but I'd like to see SOMETHING change. The "(cantrip+fetches+FoW) + (blade/tempo/combo package) = legacy deck" formula has gotten pretty boring. I'd also mention Goblin Recruiter. Yeah, that discussion tends to get shut down quickly, but someone has to bring it up again for the sake of the poor goblins players :( My thoughts are with you during your time of mourning.

[Barook]

Bringing back SotF, Frantic Search, and Black Vise could shake things up a little, and I think in a good way. It may be that they all end up like Land Tax, but I'd like to see SOMETHING change. The "(cantrip+fetches+FoW) + (blade/tempo/combo package) = legacy deck" formula has gotten pretty boring. I'd also mention Goblin Recruiter. Yeah, that discussion tends to get shut down quickly, but someone has to bring it up again for the sake of the poor goblins players :( My thoughts are with you during your time of mourning.
Goblin Recruiter isn't just banned for power, but also for logistic reasons.

[force_of_phil]

Goblin Recruiter isn't just banned for power, but also for logistic reasons.

True, it's probably not a good card to have around even if it's not busted. I guess gobs is stuck praying for new printings.

[nedleeds]

Vise might have some 'feel bads' but not any worse than just getting Guide/Guide/Bolt/Bolt/Bolt/Bolt/Fireblasted. So Vise/Vise/Bolt/Bolt/Bolt/Bolt/Fireblast. The Vise is such a miserably horrid top deck it's going to have to be at the cost of something in WalMart Burn.

Having Vise also might create a non-Chalice prison strategy. Which. I think is awesome. Because. Stasis. Or. Tangle Wire. Or. Copy my Tangle Wire with Metamorph. Sculpting Steel. Are we having fun yet?

[MaximumC]

Vise might have some 'feel bads' but not any worse than just getting Guide/Guide/Bolt/Bolt/Bolt/Bolt/Fireblasted. So Vise/Vise/Bolt/Bolt/Bolt/Bolt/Fireblast. The Vise is such a miserably horrid top deck it's going to have to be at the cost of something in WalMart Burn.

Having Vise also might create a non-Chalice prison strategy. Which. I think is awesome. Because. Stasis. Or. Tangle Wire. Or. Copy my Tangle Wire with Metamorph. Sculpting Steel. Are we having fun yet?

You're underestimating Black Vise. The only problem with it is that it is a bad topdeck, as you pointed out. On turn 1 it's going to deal between 3 and 7 damage to the opponent usually, all for one colorless mana.

It might as well be this:

Black Vise
Sorcery, 1
Deal 3 damage to target player, then flip a coin. If the coin lands in your favor, deal another 4 damage to that player. Cast this spell only during your first and second turns of the game.

Do you really want blue aggro decks like Delver to get a colorless superbolt like that? What happens when they go t1 Delver (threatening Daze) turn 2 flip delver and drop two Vises, swing 3, deal 6 during your upkeep, OOPS you're dead in a turn? These are the very same decks with enough topdeck manipulation to avoid the card late game?

No, no, you do not.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Delver decks with Arcane Denial!

[btm10]

You're underestimating Black Vise. The only problem with it is that it is a bad topdeck, as you pointed out. On turn 1 it's going to deal between 3 and 7 damage to the opponent usually, all for one colorless mana.

It might as well be this:

Black Vise
Sorcery, 1
Deal 3 damage to target player, then flip a coin. If the coin lands in your favor, deal another 4 damage to that player. Cast this spell only during your first and second turns of the game.

Do you really want blue aggro decks like Delver to get a colorless superbolt like that? What happens when they go t1 Delver (threatening Daze) turn 2 flip delver and drop two Vises, swing 3, deal 6 during your upkeep, OOPS you're dead in a turn? These are the very same decks with enough topdeck manipulation to avoid the card late game?

No, no, you do not.

No mainstream Delver variant would run that card. It doesn't fill the removal role of Bolt, StP, or Abrupt Decay, and the rest of the deck is so stacked with more reliable threats and non-negotiable draw/counter packages that there wouldn't be room for Vise.




Having Vise also might create a non-Chalice prison strategy. Which. I think is awesome. Because. Stasis. Or. Tangle Wire. Or. Copy my Tangle Wire with Metamorph. Sculpting Steel. Are we having fun yet?

I would play Vise alongside Chalice all day. You drop Vise turn 1, and your Chalice @ 1 on turn 2 remains live against their Ponders and Brainstorms and leaves them in their hand. Vise also makes Daze worse because it's cards-in-hand neutral when played for its alternate cost. And you have the option of openings like Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Vise, Chalice @ 1. The aggro-MUD deck basically builds itself.

[Gheizen64]

You're underestimating Black Vise. The only problem with it is that it is a bad topdeck, as you pointed out. On turn 1 it's going to deal between 3 and 7 damage to the opponent usually, all for one colorless mana.

It might as well be this:

Black Vise
Sorcery, 1
Deal 3 damage to target player, then flip a coin. If the coin lands in your favor, deal another 4 damage to that player. Cast this spell only during your first and second turns of the game.

Do you really want blue aggro decks like Delver to get a colorless superbolt like that? What happens when they go t1 Delver (threatening Daze) turn 2 flip delver and drop two Vises, swing 3, deal 6 during your upkeep, OOPS you're dead in a turn? These are the very same decks with enough topdeck manipulation to avoid the card late game?

No, no, you do not.

This card would fuckign sucks. I'd rather rune lava spike.

[joemauer]

I would be happy just to have Earthcraft in Legacy.

[Megadeus]

I just want basic forest to be the best basic land in legacy

[Rizso]

Survival has one problem of coming back in that necrotic ooze and loyal Retainer makes for one resilent grisselbrand deck that can both instant combo kill or play a grind match.

Stupid Grisselbrand ruin all the fun :/

[BVB09]

Definately yes, such a fun card and Survival was a very interesting, iconic and diferent deck
I always expect an unban :(

[Barook]

Survival has one problem of coming back in that necrotic ooze and loyal Retainer makes for one resilent grisselbrand deck that can both instant combo kill or play a grind match.

Stupid Grisselbrand ruin all the fun :/
How is that better than S&T into Griselbrand?

Sure, Survival is a theoretical 1-card combo, but you'd have to spend loads of mana while being vulnerable to GY hate.

A T3 Griselbrand via Loyal Retainers is the best you can hope for, assuming you had a T1 mana dork (but then it isn't exactly a 1-card combo anymore).

[Hof]

Goblin Recruiter isn't just banned for power, but also for logistic reasons.
This is a myth.

Goblin Recruiter is banned in Legacy simply because it was banned in Extended when the first Legacy banned list was made.

The reason for Goblin Recruiters ban in Extended was that is was deemed too fast.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/189

[DragoFireheart]

WotC really does not like tutors.

[Erdvermampfa]

To be honest I voted for 'No' as I think it would only get used to enable another range of noninteractive combo which we all find so miserable to play against. It isn't necessarily my idea of fun where matches depend entirely on whether you find your hate or not. This isn't the old days where Survival fetches Genesis and Squee for long-term advantage and Survival should be considered purely as a combo enabler such as Show and Tell nowadays.

[btm10]

I think that point is moot as long as Show and Tell is legal. I want the SnT decks, so I think worse-than-Show should also be legal. All we can do is unban powerful cards and hope they do something.

[Lt. Quattro]

I voted no but I don't think it would be worse than turn 2 griselbrand so - 1 no and + 1 yes for the poll please.

[civet five]

To be honest I voted for 'No' as I think it would only get used to enable another range of noninteractive combo which we all find so miserable to play against. It isn't necessarily my idea of fun where matches depend entirely on whether you find your hate or not. This isn't the old days where Survival fetches Genesis and Squee for long-term advantage and Survival should be considered purely as a combo enabler such as Show and Tell nowadays.

The fastest pure kill I'm aware of with Survival of the Fittest is Volrath's Shapeshifter+Phage the Untouchable, which can kill on turn2 with the nuts (and the nuts doesn't even need SotF, it could theoretically happen now):
Turn1: Land, dork.
Turn2: Land, Shapeshifter, LED, discard a hand that contains Anger and Phage, stacking Phage on top.

In this form it plays out like Infect in terms of speed and "only with the nuttiest of the nuts does it kill on turn2" but with Survival it increases in consistency for turn 3-4. Zombardment, Maverick, Meathooks, Infect, Reanimator, Jund, Nic Fit, etc all also could benefit from Survival of the Fittest. Other combos that SotF could enable will involve creatures in some way, and creatures continue to be the most easily dealt with form of permanent. I view SotF like Force of Will but rather than cramming FoW with Brainstorm and 8 other cards, now we're cramming SotF and 10+ creatures into a shell.

[Dzra]

Survival has one problem of coming back in that necrotic ooze and loyal Retainer makes for one resilient grisselbrand deck that can both instant combo kill or play a grind match.

As others have pointed out, Survival is more mana intensive and more susceptible to hate than Show and Tell or Sneak Attack at cheating Griselbrand into play. That's not to say that a Griselbrand + Loyal Retainers/Ooze package might not find its way into Survival SBs, but it probably won't be the selling point.

And also, while Vengevine might be the best creature package for Survival, I wouldn't want it banned right off. I would much rather see Necrotic Ooze get the axe because I feel like it is more likely to lead to dumb and unfun games.

[Meekrab]

As long as we're unbanning enchantments, can we talk about Yawgmoth's Bargain? It's basically worse than Ad Nauseum.

[civet five]

As long as we're unbanning enchantments, can we talk about Yawgmoth's Bargain? It's basically worse than Ad Nauseum.

I don't agree that it's worse than Ad Nauseum, but I do agree that its potentially safe to unban. It's 1 life per card, so it basically cannot ever draw the entire deck, but unlike Ad Nauseum it can draw multiple higher CMC spells without killing you. I do think that in a format that allows Omniscience to get cheated into play and Enter the Infinite draws your entire deck, not to mention Griselbrand, YB doesn't seem all that broken.

[Dzra]

I don't agree that it's worse than Ad Nauseum, but I do agree that its potentially safe to unban.

It's definitely better than Ad Nauseam and almost always better than Griselbrand. That being said... I'm not sure that it's too powerful for the format. Although, you'd have to be ok with making a UB Show and Tell deck that wins with Tendrils into a thing.

[Lord Seth]

I don't think Show and Tell and Yawgmoth's Bargain have much synergy. Show and Tell is powerful because the cards it drops into play are win conditions of themselves. Emrakul and Griselbrand can, by themselves, win the game. Omniscience needs some more help, but there's still a lot of cards in your deck that you just win with via Omniscience if they're in your hand.

But Yawgmoth's Bargain? It doesn't do that. It's not a win condition. Show and Tell into Yawgmoth's Bargain doesn't give you a card to win you the game with; it gives you a card that lets you pay life to try to find the win condition card instead of being a win condition.

[Megadeus]

The one thing that Ad Nauseam does that Bargain doesnt do is force you to build your deck around having a low CMC. You can reasonable play 3-4 bargain in you wanted along with other random high costing cards for whatever reason you need. Ad Nauseam you are forced into a low curve.

[apple713]

I'm all for unbanning cards, but I'm confidant that bargain is not one of those cards. it's too good. Pay 1 life draw a card.... draw as many as you'd like.... Play with Children of Korlis and draw your deck..... gg. it's better than griselbrand imo just because its 1 card at a time and if you have 6 mana you can just cast it....

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't think Show and Tell and Yawgmoth's Bargain have much synergy. Show and Tell is powerful because the cards it drops into play are win conditions of themselves. Emrakul and Griselbrand can, by themselves, win the game. Omniscience needs some more help, but there's still a lot of cards in your deck that you just win with via Omniscience if they're in your hand.

But Yawgmoth's Bargain? It doesn't do that. It's not a win condition. Show and Tell into Yawgmoth's Bargain doesn't give you a card to win you the game with; it gives you a card that lets you pay life to try to find the win condition card instead of being a win condition.

It's a combo enabler, in the same spirit of Sneak Attack. It's actually probably quite a bit better in that it doesn't require mana or another card in hand to be effective, only life. This list would run rituals and more mana rocks, so it would be faster, I'm not sure it would run forces, but it's an option, along with discard. It would basically be a non-graveyard dependent tin fins that doesn't need the creature part of the equation. It will never be unbanned. If it does, I will quit. You probably will, too.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[apple713]

It's a combo enabler, in the same spirit of Sneak Attack. It's actually probably quite a bit better in that it doesn't require mana or another card in hand to be effective, only life. This list would run rituals and more mana rocks, so it would be faster, I'm not sure it would run forces, but it's an option, along with discard. It would basically be a non-graveyard dependent tin fins that doesn't need the creature part of the equation. It will never be unbanned. If it does, I will quit. You probably will, too.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

i wouldn't quit, i'd just make sure i was the one playing it... but yeah there is too many reasons for this card to remain banned. There is a reason griselbrand cost 8 and its not because of its life linking body.

[btm10]

As long as we're unbanning enchantments, can we talk about Yawgmoth's Bargain? It's basically worse than Ad Nauseum.

I'm pretty sure that this is trolling, but some of the comments on Bargain others have been making show just as much ignorance about Bargain as Meekrab's comment does about Survival. Even the BW Urza Block Bargain deck that used Bargain/Soul Feast/Skirge Familiar to win (Bargain was usually cheated out with Academy Rector/Phyrexian Tower) would probably be a Tier 2 Legacy deck, and there are undoubtedly storm versions that are far, far worse.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't understand the logic in unbanning anything that helps blue or combo, it seems counter-productive. Even Black Vise is shaky on that grounds since there is some possibility of Stasis being a good deck with the card, although unlikely.

I don't understand the arguments against Survival either. People are afraid of "degenerate" combos that cost 1GGGGG+ in this format, with turn 2 Griselbrands?

[rxavage]

I'd love to see SotF unbanned but not at the cost of anything being banned. I think the card would be fine in this format, even with Necrotic Ooze, Vengevine, Loyal Retainers and friends.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd love to see SotF unbanned but not at the cost of anything being banned.

Such a weird phenomenon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion)

[Meekrab]

I don't understand the logic in unbanning anything that helps blue or combo, it seems counter-productive. Even Black Vise is shaky on that grounds since there is some possibility of Stasis being a good deck with the card, although unlikely.
What's left on the banned list that doesn't 'help blue or combo'? Is there a single card? Even Hermit Druid and Goblin Recruiter would probably be best in a blue shell.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What's left on the banned list that doesn't 'help blue or combo'? Is there a single card? Even Hermit Druid and Goblin Recruiter would probably be best in a blue shell.

What the hell blue shell would you put Recruiter in?

Skullclamp probably wouldn't be best in a blue shell, but it's dumb to unban for other reasons. Ditto to Channel and Fastbond.

Survival of the Fittest, Mind Twist, and Earthcraft could come off without helping blue. So could Goblin Recruiter and Shahrazad, but they do take a lot of time out of the game.

Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad would probably not be in primarily blue shells, at least they wouldn't fit within existing blue shells. They are probably not very good cards to unban anyway though.

Worldgorger Dragon wouldn't be played in blue decks for the simple reason that it wouldn't be played, but still.

[Dzra]

Survival of the Fittest, Mind Twist, and Earthcraft

Any of these would probably be fine to come off, although the only one that I think will actually make a positive contribution to the format would be Survival. Mishra's Workshop might actually be safe to unban, although doing so would almost certainly necessitate banning Trinisphere. The others you mentioned are either too powerful or cause unnecessary tournament awkwardness.

[Hof]

What's left on the banned list that doesn't 'help blue or combo'? Is there a single card? Even Hermit Druid and Goblin Recruiter would probably be best in a blue shell.
Goblin Recruiter in a blue shell?
I would love to see a decklist. I hear laughter is good medicine.

Anyway, balancing the color wheel should not be a major consideration when managing the banned list of a format with a declared goal of allowing as many cards as possible.

I am all for unbanning Recruiter, although I seriously doubt it would make Goblins tier 1 at this point.

More on topic, I am for unbanning Survival. I only a little worried that every Survival list would begin with 4 Survival, 4 Deathrite Shaman just to keep other Survival decks in check.

[Dzra]

More on topic, I am for unbanning Survival. I only a little worried that every Survival list would begin with 4 Survival, 4 Deathrite Shaman just to keep other Survival decks in check.

Just brainstorming on the fly... but something like this would probably be the first list that I tested.

//Land 22
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas

//Creatures 30
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vengevine
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Memnite
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

//Other 8
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

It's possible that Loyal Retainers should be in the SB and Thalia is good enough to be MD instead. It's also possible that we don't care about Wastelanding and would rather just have more Cradles/Green sources. Scavenging Ooze and Scryb Ranger are also possible MD inclusions. Quad Revoker is a concession to what is likely a poor Sneak and Show matchup.

Anyways, it's fun to think about. Scary looking deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Any of these would probably be fine to come off, although the only one that I think will actually make a positive contribution to the format would be Survival. Mishra's Workshop might actually be safe to unban, although doing so would almost certainly necessitate banning Trinisphere. The others you mentioned are either too powerful or cause unnecessary tournament awkwardness.

I've heard that before actually, and I'm not averse to the possibility with Wasteland and Abrupt Decay running around. My only real concerns would be budgetary but that's probably a lost cause at this point in the format. Actually an expensive deck without a dual-heavy mana base might actually ease some pressure on other decks. Part of the problem is that right now the best decks are almost entirely blue-based three color good-stuff decks.


Goblin Recruiter in a blue shell?
I would love to see a decklist. I hear laughter is good medicine.

Anyway, balancing the color wheel should not be a major consideration when managing the banned list of a format with a declared goal of allowing as many cards as possible.

I am all for unbanning Recruiter, although I seriously doubt it would make Goblins tier 1 at this point.

More on topic, I am for unbanning Survival. I only a little worried that every Survival list would begin with 4 Survival, 4 Deathrite Shaman just to keep other Survival decks in check.

That's a declared goal I guess, but it's putting the cart before the horse to presume it supersedes the major unstated goal of this format, as any other game; to be fun and interesting.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Just brainstorming on the fly... but something like this would probably be the first list that I tested.

//Land 22
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas

//Creatures 30
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vengevine
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Memnite
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

//Other 8
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

It's possible that Loyal Retainers should be in the SB and Thalia is good enough to be MD instead. It's also possible that we don't care about Wastelanding and would rather just have more Cradles/Green sources. Scavenging Ooze and Scryb Ranger are also possible MD inclusions. Quad Revoker is a concession to what is likely a poor Sneak and Show matchup.

Anyways, it's fun to think about. Scary looking deck.

You forgot Anger and Squee, Goblin Nabob.

[troopatroop]

You forgot Anger and Squee, Goblin Nabob.

+1

So the question is, would I like to see the most interesting Magic card of all time. The most skill intensive, the most testing, the most dynamicly green card ever back in Legacy. Who in their right mind says No to this? BAN VENGEVINE, UNBAN Survival! They got it wrong from the beginning... and BAN SHOW AND TELL already. They got it wrong from the start, Survival was nothing but awesome. Now they print True-Name Nemesis and ruin magic forever. Awesome all around.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't agree with most skill intensive, but Survival was certainly a very fun and interactive archetype. As a control player most of the time I found it really frustrating to struggle with, like trying to lop the heads of a hydra (even with maindeck Humility,) but it was very engaging and led to interesting games, for the most part.

And there were so many different ways to build around Survival, most of which in no way resembled other decks played before or since in other archetypes, with cards like the above mentioned Squee/Anger, or Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary or Genesis or Seedborn Muse with Tradewind Rider, or Goblin Welder with Sundering Titan, or Recurring Nightmare or my personal favorite rando-target Keeper of the Dead that, without that engine, have never seen the light of day in Legacy. Or even Eternal Witness and Kitchen Finks that never seem to quite make the cut in Legacy despite being all over the place in Modern.

[Dzra]

You forgot Anger and Squee, Goblin Nabob.

Ha. Definitely a shout out to the classic pre-Vengevine era of Survival. I don't really think that either would be necessary alongside Vengevine though. I could see Wonder as a spicy one-of though.


BAN VENGEVINE, UNBAN Survival! They got it wrong from the beginning... and BAN SHOW AND TELL already.

Honestly, rather than thinking that Survival is too powerful with Vengevine, I'm of the mindset that Survival wouldn't be powerful enough in this format without Vengevine. While I love the Survival decks of old for their ability to be non-uniform value decks, I really don't think that durdling for value with Squees is good enough to be tier 1. Even Lands has a combo finish these days.

As for Show and Tell... prove to me that it's too big a hindrance on the format and then we can talk about banning it. Show and Tell underperformed at GP DC and did even worse at Eternal Weekend and only showed slightly more success at GP Paris (only putting up one top 8 between all three tournaments). True-Name Nemesis does far more harm than Show and Tell (if for no better reason than by preying on Death and Taxes, which is a natural foil for Sneak and Show).

[dunk]

Re: Would you like to see Survival back in the format?

Of course. Then I could finally play a creature based deck in an UW infested meta again.

But let's get serious, Wotc is just too lazy to even consider an unbanning of it...

[kiblast]

I understand many of you guys want Survival legal because you think that it is now answerable by md options such as Scavenging, Deathrite, Revoker etc. But you seem to forget that the Survival player can answer back all this stuff simply by activating Survival in response. Even if you Vial in @2 with Death and Taxes, any decent SotF.dec player knows that Revoker might hit the ground and he just needs to grab an answer at instant speed at the cost of a mere G mana… and this is just an example off the top of my head.
Also, as other people said before me in this thread, Survival is a 4 cards package that would be jammed in every single deck packing creatures and unarguably ANY creature.deck would be better just because has access to 4 Survivals. You advocate for format diversity and at the same time you want Survival legal. Lol, the midrange part of the format would look like this:

-GW Survival (formerly known as Maverick, Vial Maverick)
-Junk Survival (formerly known as Junk, Rock, Vial Junk)
-BUG Survival (formerly known as BUG Tempo, BUG Midrange, Team America)
-Big Zoo Survival

Anyways, I'd still love to see Survival legal again, just to see you crying again for bannings after one month because ''Survival doesn't contribute to the format diversity''. Survival would kill entire archetypes for the sole reason that if you pack at least 18 creatures it doesn't make sense not to play Survival. Also, for you brainstorm haters, Brainstorm+Survival Decks would be flat out better than non blue Survival Decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I understand many of you guys want Survival legal because you think that it is now answerable by md options such as Scavenging, Deathrite, Revoker etc. But you seem to forget that the Survival player can answer back all this stuff simply by activating Survival in response. Even if you Vial in @2 with Death and Taxes, any decent SotF.dec player knows that Revoker might hit the ground and he just needs to grab an answer at instant speed at the cost of a mere G mana… and this is just an example off the top of my head.
Also, as other people said before me in this thread, Survival is a 4 cards package that would be jammed in every single deck packing creatures and unarguably ANY creature.deck would be better just because has access to 4 Survivals. You advocate for format diversity and at the same time you want Survival legal. Lol, the midrange part of the format would look like this:

-GW Survival (formerly known as Maverick, Vial Maverick)
-Junk Survival (formerly known as Junk, Rock, Vial Junk)
-BUG Survival (formerly known as BUG Tempo, BUG Midrange, Team America)
-Big Zoo Survival

Anyways, I'd still love to see Survival legal again, just to see you crying again for bannings after one month because ''Survival doesn't contribute to the format diversity''. Survival would kill entire archetypes for the sole reason that if you pack at least 18 creatures it doesn't make sense not to play Survival. Also, for you brainstorm haters, Brainstorm+Survival Decks would be flat out better than non blue Survival Decks.

It's really weird that someone would sound so confident while seeming completely ignorant of the actual tradition of Survival in the format.

(Join date 2010)

Oh.

You know that Survival was legal in this format before, right? For like, five or six years... which covered some of the most diverse and fun points in Legacy's history in terms of metagame composition.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So for those not aware, some basic weaknesses with Survival as an archetype:

It's slow. Add 1GG to the cost of things and they tend to seem a lot less broken. Often 1GGGGG or something in fact.

It's vulnerable to both creature and graveyard hate as well as Pithing Needle, Abrupt Decay etc..

It's not a wish. You can't grab cards with Survival that aren't actually in your deck. So if you think you can just always have the perfect card for every situation in your deck, think again; especially because your list has to be able to at least partially function in scenarios where you don't have a live Survival.

[kiblast]

It's really weird that someone would sound so confident while seeming completely ignorant of the actual tradition of Survival in the format.

(Join date 2010)

Oh.

You know that Survival was legal in this format before, right? For like, five or six years... which covered some of the most diverse and fun points in Legacy's history in terms of metagame composition.

Iba, you know that besides internet there's another thing called real life in which I was playing Mtg before 2010?
Now take a deep breath after this incredible revelation.

Survival gets more and more broken with the power creep of creatures. In 2009 you could get Rofellos and Loxodon Hierarch, well guess what, that was 5 years ago and a shitload of uber broken stuff has been printed since then.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Iba, you know that besides internet there's another thing called real life in which I was playing Mtg before 2010?
Now take a deep breath after this incredible revelation.

Survival gets more and more broken with the power creep of creatures. In 2009 you could get Rofellos and Loxodon Hierarch, well guess what, that was 5 years ago and a shitload of uber broken stuff has been printed since then.

If you were getting Loxodon Hierarch with Survival in2 009, I'm sure the revelation that you can get other creatures seems like a staggering increase in power.

Creatures have certainly gotten better. This is a pretty stupid basis on which to support a pre-emptive banning.

[DragoFireheart]

Creatures have certainly gotten better. This is a pretty stupid basis on which to support a pre-emptive banning.

Same reasoning could be applied to Show and Tell and you don't see that card being banned.

SoTF being banned is very silly considering the current meta of Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Show and Tell, and Rest in Peace. Between main-decked cards that are good on their own along with plenty of sideboard options, SotF would be fine unbanned.

[kiblast]

If you were getting Loxodon Hierarch with Survival in2 009, I'm sure the revelation that you can get other creatures seems like a staggering increase in power.

Yes, alongside Flametongue Kavus, Wickerbough Elder and Mystic Enforcer and Big game hunters... Maybe you can't remember what the deck lists looked like, have a look online.


Creatures have certainly gotten better. This is a pretty stupid basis on which to support a pre-emptive banning.

Well, considering that SotF has been banned for years now, and it's an enchantment that deals with creatures, it's the only basis we have to judge its potential impact on the format. It's the most intuitive at least- creatures get better set after set, Survival gets better set after set.

Mind you, I'm not saying that survival would be format warping. I'm just saying that it would not contribute to format diversity because it would be obvious for any deck packing a certain threshold of creatures to run 4. It would be a no brainer.

[DragoFireheart]

Well, considering that SotF has been banned for years now, and it's an enchantment that deals with creatures, it's the only basis we have to judge its potential impact on the format. It's the most intuitive at least- creatures get better set after set, Survival gets better set after set.

Blue gets better almost every set after set but you don't see blue being banned.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, alongside Flametongue Kavus, Wickerbough Elder and Mystic Enforcer and Big game hunters... Maybe you can't remember what the deck lists looked like, have a look online.

Old Thresh lists ran Mystic Enforcer, maybe that's what you're thinking of?

I'm sure you can find a list that Hierarch or Enforcer somewhere, they were not standard. Wickerbough, FTK and Big Game Hunter would probably still see play, although Wickerbough only where white isn't available obviously.


Well, considering that SotF has been banned for years now, and it's an enchantment that deals with creatures, it's the only basis we have to judge its potential impact on the format. It's the most intuitive at least- creatures get better set after set, Survival gets better set after set.

Creatures sure do get better, why look, they're printing these creatures like... Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, I mean this is pretty much the most naked status quo bias.

[kiblast]

Old Thresh lists ran Mystic Enforcer, maybe that's what you're thinking of?

I'm sure you can find a list that Hierarch or Enforcer somewhere, they were not standard. Wickerbough, FTK and Big Game Hunter would probably still see play, although Wickerbough only where white isn't available obviously.

Creatures sure do get better, why look, they're printing these creatures like... Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze...

Here (http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/viewByArchetype/541) you can have a look at the old RBGSA lists played in that period. I just checked the last 10 or so though.

SotF isn't just about going off with VV's or Retainers. SotF is a reliable form of card advantage and disruption at instant speed. Most of the cards that should stop SotF can be stopped once SotF is on the battlefield and you have a spare G mana open. I'm not saying is unstoppable, but its not as easy as you think. Barring Decay (which can be preemptively dealt with by Meddling Mage or Spellskite if you need to) any other answer can be dealt with or just ignored, because after all even if your SotF gets hosed by something, you are still left with a fairly good midrange deck packing discard and good creatures.

[Megadeus]

Well, considering that SotF has been banned for years now, and it's an enchantment that deals with creatures, it's the only basis we have to judge its potential impact on the format. It's the most intuitive at least- creatures get better set after set, Survival gets better set after set.


I guess permanents to put into play with Show and Tell don't get better and better every year now do they?

[conboy31]

I guess permanents to put into play with Show and Tell don't get better and better every year now do they?

Or to a lesser extent spells for dream halls, artifacts for welder, equipment for sfm, etc.

Survival should come back to legacy, it opens up entire archetypes. If for some reason survival + 4x tnn became oppressive I would much rather tnn get axed just like v-vine the previous time.

[Barook]

I guess permanents to put into play with Show and Tell don't get better and better every year now do they?
It can't get really much dumber than Emrakul, Griselbrand and Omniscience, unless they print something like this:


Maro's Fap Material :14::u::u::u::u::u::u:
Legendary Creature - Leviathan
Maro's Fap Material can’t be countered.
When Maro's Fap Material enters the battlefield, take an extra turn after this one.
Protection from everything
Maro's Fap Material can't leave the battlefield.
If Maro's Fap Material would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Maro's Fap Material and shuffle it into its owner’s library instead.
20/20

And the funny part is that there would be actually people who would argue that you should adapt and pack Fog and/or Holy Day while Turbo Fog suddenly becomes a Tier 1 deck.

[Megadeus]

Agreed. I mean my main point being that it seems difficult to argue that Survival should stay banned because it only gets better each set when there are strong cards like SnT that do the same thing (and dont cost GGGGGG to "auto win")

[Barook]

Agreed. I mean my main point being that it seems difficult to argue that Survival should stay banned because it only gets better each set when there are strong cards like SnT that do the same thing (and dont cost GGGGGG to "auto win")
Kiblast sure has a point when he says that many answers to SotF can be countered by tutoring up a fitting answer with Survival.

But how is that a problem now while it wasn't a problem back then?

[kiblast]

I guess permanents to put into play with Show and Tell don't get better and better every year now do they?

Do you get the difference between a combo deck and a midrange creatures deck or you really want me to start?
Sneak and Show is a deck which is built around a combination of 2 cards. 1 Emrakul or Griselbrand, and 1 Show and Tell or 1 Sneak Attack. The rest of the deck is entirely devoted to manipulation and protection.
On the other hand, SotF is a package you can throw in every single deck which plays creatures. And those decks will improve. It doesn't help format diversification. And on a side note, I don't care about Survival being legal or not, nor I care about SnT being legal or not because I usually play Miracle. I'd love to see SotF legal just for the sake of it. I'm not against unbanning it.

But please stop comparing apples to oranges…


Kiblast sure has a point when he says that many answers to SotF can be countered by tutoring up a fitting answer with Survival.

But how is that a problem now while it wasn't a problem back then?


Barook, don't get me wrong. I'd unban SotF now if I could, just to see what happens and because I loved RGBSA back then. What I was saying is that SotF is not just a combo enabler, but a repeatable tool of card advantage, manipulation and card quality at instant speed. SotF.Decks work fine when you hose it (lets say you open a turn 1 Needle) but they work much better when SotF is online. And at that point it is degenerate, or at least my mental picture-which could be flawed, but could be right- is that with the amount of broken stuff printed lately, it could lead to degenerate stuff. And I'm prone to say that it would be something degenerate with Blue involved, because suddenly your Cliques, Snapcasters and Nemesis/SFM can be tutored at instant speed. I'm not saying it would be format warping, I'm just giving some food for thought.

[civet five]

We should just build some Survival decks and run them in a gauntlet against the current metagame. That would pretty much answer our own question, wouldn't it?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

On the other hand, SotF is a package you can throw in every single deck which plays creatures. And those decks will improve.

Firstly, how is this supposed to jibe with the demonstrable fact that when Survival was legal in the format, lots of decks ran creatures without running Survival? I'll grant that it would probably be tossed into Maverick, Elves, and probably Jund, but that leaves plenty of decks without room for a durdly card advantage engine.

Secondly, is this very different from the case with Brainstorm, which is tossed into a far higher percentage of the field than Survival ever has been or would be likely to, but with advocates saying that this is fine because the individual decks are different? Survival decks were never close to monolithic, even at the height of their power and presence in the metagame, they ran a variety of color combinations, support, toolboxes and kills.

[DragoFireheart]

We should just build some Survival decks and run them in a gauntlet against the current metagame. That would pretty much answer our own question, wouldn't it?

There should be a 1.5.1 format where you test banned cards to see which would be ok to legalize in Legacy.

[btm10]

Barook, don't get me wrong. I'd unban SotF now if I could, just to see what happens and because I loved RGBSA back then. What I was saying is that SotF is not just a combo enabler, but a repeatable tool of card advantage, manipulation and card quality at instant speed. SotF.Decks work fine when you hose it (lets say you open a turn 1 Needle) but they work much better when SotF is online. And at that point it is degenerate, or at least my mental picture-which could be flawed, but could be right- is that with the amount of broken stuff printed lately, it could lead to degenerate stuff. And I'm prone to say that it would be something degenerate with Blue involved, because suddenly your Cliques, Snapcasters and Nemesis/SFM can be tutored at instant speed. I'm not saying it would be format warping, I'm just giving some food for thought.

I still think you're vastly overestimating the potential penetration Survival would achieve. It fits well into creature-based midrange strategies, but those strategies would now all demand an intense commitment to green. It might make some kind of Bant Survival deck with SFM and TNN good, it also might enable the combo archetypes that people have mentioned, it might get slotted into a Nic Fit-like shell, or it might lead to a whole slew of other decks. Isn't this good for the format? It's not like 4 Jackal Pup Sligh or 4 Skyshroud Elite 10 Land Stompy is ever going to be good again.

[kiblast]

Firstly, how is this supposed to jibe with the demonstrable fact that when Survival was legal in the format, lots of decks ran creatures without running Survival? I'll grant that it would probably be tossed into Maverick, Elves, and probably Jund, but that leaves plenty of decks without room for a durdly card advantage engine.

Secondly, is this very different from the case with Brainstorm, which is tossed into a far higher percentage of the field than Survival ever has been or would be likely to, but with advocates saying that this is fine because the individual decks are different? Survival decks were never close to monolithic, even at the height of their power and presence in the metagame, they ran a variety of color combinations, support, toolboxes and kills.

Well call me a legacy näive but I truly think that Brainstorm being played in a wide range of archetypes is functionally different from SotF being played in almost every deck in a certain archetypes subset (or at least it could be).
Obviously I'm not going to argue that format penetration of Brainstorm is and will always be much more high than Survival's.

On the other hand, all I'm saying is that if you play a certain amount of creatures (18? 20? 23? I have no fucking clue) It is highly probable that your deck would like to run a repeatable instant speed tutor effect, and maybe a Squee to generate advantage as well, and maybe a small compact combo finish just in case. Obviously Threshold (just to name a deck)will never be able to run it, but any other deck that meets the minimum requirements (high amount of creatures, has access to Green mana) most probably will. And that your deck becomes stronger because you add a card that if gets answered effectively, lets you run on normal midrange mode, if not answered lets you turn on turbo-mode just by the cost of one G mana per turn (or more if you want, but chaining one Goyf per turn is usually enough) and one Squee.


I still think you're vastly overestimating the potential penetration Survival would achieve.

Maybe. I'm just exhausted of answering TNN's, and playing vs a deck that can turn every single creature into TNN just by spending G doesn't sound good to me (just to give you an example).

[ahg113]

So we should, or shouldn't corner the market on Squee, Goblin Nabob? MMQ only please, the art on X is horrible.

If one is not playing blue, not allowed to have nice things. That's the jist I get from people that say no, or are worried about the sky falling.

[kiblast]

If one is not playing blue, not allowed to have nice things. That's the jist I get from people that say no, or are worried about the sky falling.

Blue survival decks would probably be better than non blue survival decks anyways.

[Barook]

Blue survival decks would probably be better than non blue survival decks anyways.
Maybe, but wasn't the GW Vengevine variant the strongest one back then?

[Arsenal]

That deck was basically Maverick + Survival package. Once Survival was banned (1-1-11), Green Sun's Zenith (released 2-4-11, just a month after Survival got the axe) soon found it's home.

[kiblast]

Maybe, but wasn't the GW Vengevine variant the strongest one back then?

Yup, but it's so easy to splash blue, more tools, more clique, more bs, more tnn… etc etc

We should really test a parallel metagame where SotF is legal and see what happens.

[Megadeus]

Yup, but it's so easy to splash blue, more tools, more clique, more bs, more tnn… etc etc

We should really test a parallel metagame where SotF is legal and see what happens.

The fact that the comment above is even a thing is a testament to how powerful brainstorm is.

[nedleeds]

On the other hand, SotF is a package you can throw in every single deck which plays creatures. And those decks will improve.

This is so false it's sad. You need a density of creatures. You need a commitment to green mana. You need to cut something (GSZ). You would never play it in a deck of redundant threats. You wouldn't play it in a aggro deck. Good luck with your Merfolk Survival deck!

[conboy31]

On the other hand, SotF is a package you can throw in every single deck which plays creatures. And those decks will improve.

What type of deck is Merfolk and how good does it get with survival.

[kiblast]

This is so false it's sad. You need a density of creatures. You need a commitment to green mana. You need to cut something (GSZ). You would never play it in a deck of redundant threats. You wouldn't play it in a aggro deck. Good luck with your Merfolk Survival deck!

Which is exactly what I said few posts later :)
But yeah, you're definitely good at extrapolating one line in 6 pages and making others look dumb! :D

[HammafistRoob]

If they ever print Maro's Fap Material(omglolwut?) I'd be so pumped about Erratic Explosion.

[Megadeus]

Which is exactly what I said few posts later :)
But yeah, you're definitely good at extrapolating one line in 6 pages and making others look dumb! :D

To be fair, it seems like generally that has been your entire argument is that any deck with a lot of creatures would automatically slot in survival. Your argument is about the card becoming ubiquitous with basically any creature deck is not true at all is really the point.

[nedleeds]

Sorry I couldn't wade through your fucking text wall. Your statement above was pretty absolute and was absurd, my urge to reply was strong. Way to reign it in but still fall short a few posts later. Even a density of creatures in a deck of 20-25 wouldn't always want SoTF for the other reasons I mentioned. Heavy green commitment. Too slow etc. You're reaching now. SotF would be a fine card but no better than the other backbreaking cards that get run in Legacy now.

[kiblast]

To be fair, it seems like generally that has been your entire argument is that any deck with a lot of creatures would automatically slot in survival. Your argument is about the card becoming ubiquitous with basically any creature deck is not true at all is really the point.

Yeah that's my argument. In your opinion the following creaure heavy midrange decks:

-Bant Aggro
-Elves!
-Maverick
-4c Deathrite Midrange decks (basically RBGSA revisited)
-Junk
-UG Madness (this is not played right now, but it would be played again after unbanning)
-edit: the weird BUG Nic fit build with lots of creatures and little disruption (can't recall deck name, probably is BUG Pod, it was in a couple SCG top8s)
-edit: MOST

Wouldn't instant switch to SotF if it was legal? In my opinion yes, they would.

Yeah, merfolk would not run survival, I didn't think I had to specify that.

[Megadeus]

I'm not certain that Elves would automatically switch to survival. Bant Aggro, probably would change a bit, maverick probably would change as well, and Nic Fit decks would love it. Junk may not use it though unless they shifted their strategy. A lot of junk decks are creature light anyway. Deathblade barely runs green and would most certainly need to shift up their approach if they were to run this card. Basically with a lot of these decks you cannot simply slot Survival in and it automatically be better.

[kiblast]

I'm not certain that Elves would automatically switch to survival. Bant Aggro, probably would change a bit, maverick probably would change as well, and Nic Fit decks would love it. Junk may not use it though unless they shifted their strategy. A lot of junk decks are creature light anyway. Deathblade barely runs green and would most certainly need to shift up their approach if they were to run this card. Basically with a lot of these decks you cannot simply slot Survival in and it automatically be better.

Which part of the initial disclaimer ''creature heavy midrange decks'' is not clear exactly?

[Megadeus]

So you made a list of creature heavy midrange decks, I said yes or no to whether or not they would play survival without drastic changes, and then what? I said that probably half of those decks currently probably would not immediately slot in SotF without drastic changes. I don't think Elves would even want it that badly at this point over GSZ.

[nedleeds]

Yeah that's my argument. In your opinion the following creaure heavy midrange decks:

-Bant Aggro
-Elves!
-Maverick
-4c Deathrite Midrange decks (basically RBGSA revisited)
-Junk
-UG Madness (this is not played right now, but it would be played again after unbanning)
-edit: the weird BUG Nic fit build with lots of creatures and little disruption (can't recall deck name, probably is BUG Pod, it was in a couple SCG top8s)
-edit: MOST

Wouldn't instant switch to SotF if it was legal? In my opinion yes, they would.

Yeah, merfolk would not run survival, I didn't think I had to specify that.

I quoted you. I understand you stepped back a few paces in some post 6 down from the one I read.

I think Green Sun's Zenith is better in most of those decks. You seem deaf, dumb and blind to the fact that it didn't exist when SotF was legal. Certainly in elves where Survival is a complete brick compared to GSZ or Natural Order. I don't even know what the 4th deck means. I guess Maverick could play it, but I think GSZ is better in many cases -- maybe split the 2. Maverick I think would rather cast Thalia on turn 2 on 2 lands than 1G: Do Nothing Pass the Turn. But I think Survival would have a place in Maverick. Especially being able to chuck extra legends late game. I'm not playing it in Junk ... it's too slow, I want to disrupt your hand and play my Confidant or a 3/4 Goyf, or if you chose to play it in Gbw you'd be doing it at the expense of threats or GSZ which is just better as you don't need a creature in hand and you don't have to cast the creature.

Nothing like show and telling yawgmoth's bargain or LED or Brainstorm but it would be a good card.

SotF was around for a decade and it was fine.

If you aren't devoting 4-5 cards to a terrible slow graveyard dependent combo with it it wouldn't be worth playing over Zenith in most cases. Again the thread is survival back in the format. I think it's clear that it would be a fine card but nothing on the power level of some of the other staples.

[Octopusman]

I think many of you are forgetting how fast the format was when it was legal compared to now.

It's true that I feel it was banned before people became better at hating on it but I don't think I'm alone in thinking that these these midrange decks would get pushed out of the format in favor of vengevine/ooze combo.

Therefore, who cares if they would run it or not?

[Scott]

You fuckers made its price jump up $2 since the thread was started :laugh:

[Dzra]

I'll grant that it would probably be tossed into Maverick, Elves, and probably Jund

I'm not even sure Elves or Jund would want it. Survival is awfully slow for Elves; they'd have to choose between Survival and GSZ, and I believe acceleration is more important than midgame card quality for them. As far as Jund is concerned, I feel like they are better equipped to fight Survival rather than use it (Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, ability to easily SB Ooze).


Maybe, but wasn't the GW Vengevine variant the strongest one back then?

Yes. UG Survival was the first build that broke out, but was eventually replaced with GW Survival for two reasons: it was more resilient to hate (ie it doesn't require Survival to function) and it was better at fighting other Survival decks. It wasn't long after GW Survival became a thing that Survival was banned. Would GW still be the strongest with Sneak and Show being such a strong threat? It's hard to say.


SotF being played in almost every deck in a certain archetypes subset (or at least it could be).

On the other hand, all I'm saying is that if you play a certain amount of creatures (18? 20? 23? I have no fucking clue) It is highly probable that your deck would like to run a repeatable instant speed tutor effect, and maybe a Squee to generate advantage as well, and maybe a small compact combo finish just in case.

Like others have said, I think you are vastly overestimating the penetration of Survival. It will replace GSZ in Maverick (which will likely be the primary Survival build) and it will possibly create some GWr, GWb, and GWu offshoots. It will likely slide into Nic Fit since they have copious amounts of mana to durdle with. It will likely spawn a more fragile UG combo-oriented Survival build that will wax and wane depending on how ready people are to deal with it. And that's probably about it. None of these decks are tier 1; at best they are tier 1.5. If we are inserting Survival into the format and turning two or three struggling decks into playable decks (without causing significant damage to the format) then I am all for it.


In your opinion the following creaure heavy midrange decks:

-Bant Aggro: Bant doesn't have a definitive archtype right now. If it wants to run Delver then it definitely doesn't want Survival.
-Elves: Doubtful, GSZ is likely better here.
-Maverick: Yes.
-4c Deathrite Midrange decks (basically RBGSA revisited): This isn't exactly a well defined archtype either. In short, who knows?
-Junk: Probably not; at least not the spell heavy Jund we know today.
-UG Madness: This deck doesn't exist.
GBx Nic fit: Yes.



Lol, the midrange part of the format would look like this:

-GW Survival (formerly known as Maverick, Vial Maverick): Maverick has done nothing but collect dust lately.
-Junk Survival (formerly known as Junk, Rock, Vial Junk): Too many spells.
-BUG Survival (formerly known as BUG Tempo, BUG Midrange, Team America): Midranged decks that run a lot of non-creature spells will not likely want Survival.
-Big Zoo Survival: Zoo is long dead and if Survival brings it back then more power to it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am still not clear on why people think Survival would replace GSZ, the two seem to work together fine to me. Survival decks always wanted 1cc acceleration.

[Dzra]

I am still not clear on why people think Survival would replace GSZ, the two seem to work together fine to me. Survival decks always wanted 1cc acceleration.

They might be fine together in some decks, but when I was thinking of Elves in particular, I was considering how many creatures they'd have to run in order to use Glimpse of Nature effectively. I suppose it's possible (maybe even likely now that I think about it) that Elves might cut Natural Order instead, leaving them with Survival and GSZ. A split might work too, but they'd definitely have to cut some non-creature spells for it, that's for sure.

[Higgs]

My guess is, it would gravitate a ton of those midrange decks mentioned above towards a Surivival build, creating 5-6 different flavors of survival like Bant, BUG, GW, 4C etc (like it used to?). But for me the question then becomes, would the format be worse than 4-5 flavors of SMF and 3-4 flavors of Delver decks covering the majority of the format?

Edit: I've been away from Magic for a little while but this thread motivated me to test an old Vengevine-Survival list against current Miracles and BUG Delvers lists for the lulz.

[Echelon]

I'd try fit in 2 or so in my Elves!-build. It makes for wonderful midgame, turning every creature your draw into a GSZ if you want it to be another creature :smile:.

Perhaps it might lead to Elves! dropping NO completely so they can put the focus back on the BFF-team & Glimpse of Nature FTW, I dunno, or create Elvish Bidding.deck.

[Feaor]

I'm not sure what planet people are on when they say that GSZ would be better than SotF in Elves, it turns out that SotF makes every creature you draw/have in hand into a GSZ. It also has the added bonus of allowing Elves to potentially cram in a couple of Vengevine to enhance the beatdown plan if they can't go off. Also, did people forget that Survival Elves was actually a thing before SotF was banned? Josh's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXAtTAmVw4g) list was pretty sweet and I imagine with some updates it would certainly be a powerful deck. Plus its also possible that Elves would just play both GSZ and SotF for extra redundancy and consistency (which is exactly what you want in a combo deck) but I honestly can't think of a reason why it would play GSZ over SotF.

[Echelon]

but I honestly can't think of a reason why it would play GSZ over SotF.

Because the "first" GSZ costs 1GGX and a card rather than just GX and no card..? And every now and again you want to cast GSZ for X = 0 to fetch your Dryad Arbor. You can't do that on your first turn if you have to pay 1GG to do it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Test list for HotCarl, assuming at least Vengevine is banned in its stead:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Quirion Ranger

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Withered Wretch
1 Fire Imp
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Keeper of the Dead
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Eternal Witness

1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Viscera Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Deathbringer Thoctar

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Zealous Conscripts

Neat fact: KJ in the yard also combos with Necrotic Ooze, although you have to go off on your opponent's end step.

Look how much more fun to play that looks than basically anything in the current meta though.

[Barook]

Test list for HotCarl, assuming at least Vengevine is banned in its stead:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Quirion Ranger

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Withered Wretch
1 Fire Imp
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Keeper of the Dead
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Eternal Witness

1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Viscera Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Deathbringer Thoctar

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Zealous Conscripts

Neat fact: KJ in the yard also combos with Necrotic Ooze, although you have to go off on your opponent's end step.

Look how much more fun to play that looks than basically anything in the current meta though.
Why Withered Wretch over Ooze? While Ooze costs G to activate like Survival, it's significantly stronger. I'm also not convinced that a complete lack of early disruption is a good idea.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why Withered Wretch over Ooze?

I got so excited about playing Wretch + Keeper again that I forgot for a moment that a better Wretch had been printed.

Cabal Therapy should probably be in there but it's hard to overcome my urge to be greedy.

[Feaor]

Because the "first" GSZ costs 1GGX and a card rather than just GX and no card..? And every now and again you want to cast GSZ for X = 0 to fetch your Dryad Arbor. You can't do that on your first turn if you have to pay 1GG to do it.

Ok but can GSZ turn any creature you draw off of Glimpse into exactly the creature you need? The only thing GSZ really has going for it is the ability to be a Llanawar Elf by fetching Dryad Arbor, after that SotF has just way more raw power than GSZ because its a repeatable tutor. It far better at helping you "go off" as well as being better at generating value if matches get grindy. I just can't believe a creature based combo deck that can generate tons of green mana wouldn't want a repeatable creature tutor, so if SotF was to come back the really issue becomes whether you cut GSZ or NO from the deck as you don't have space for all three.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ok but can GSZ turn any creature you draw off of Glimpse into exactly the creature you need? The only thing GSZ really has going for it is the ability to be a Llanawar Elf by fetching Dryad Arbor, after that SotF has just way more raw power than GSZ because its a repeatable tutor. It far better at helping you "go off" as well as being better at generating value if matches get grindy. I just can't believe a creature based combo deck that can generate tons of green mana wouldn't want a repeatable creature tutor, so if SotF was to come back the really issue becomes whether you cut GSZ or NO from the deck as you don't have space for all three.

Maybe Elves need a different kind of tutor than SotF.
You want GSZ to get turn1 Arbor
You want GSZ to get one-mana elf you're missing
You want NO into kill

Doy you want to spend 1GG plus a card to get Llanoar/another druid?
Do you want to spend GGGGGGGGGGGGGGG to play Craterhoof?

[GoblinZ]

Maybe Elves need a different kind of tutor than SotF.
You want GSZ to get turn1 Arbor
You want GSZ to get one-mana elf you're missing
You want NO into kill

Doy you want to spend 1GG plus a card to get Llanoar/another druid?
Do you want to spend GGGGGGGGGGGGGGG to play Craterhoof?

I remember survival elves run vengevine in the past, running NO in the sb. I am not sure if this is better than No+craterhoof...

[danyul]

I don't think Survival would supplant GSZ as cleanly as some of you think. Cutting Glimpse is not really an option. And cutting NO knocks Elves back 2-3 years, back into fringe Tier 2.5 territory.

I can think of gamestates where Survival would be amazing. But I can think of many more where GSZ is just better. This Elf talk feels like it's hijacking the thread. For now let's just say that Elves is very tuned and finding slots for 4x noncreature spells would take a lot of tweaking.

[Megadeus]

If you think that Survival is a strict upgrade to GSZ, then I feel like you don't play the card...

[Echelon]

Ok but can GSZ turn any creature you draw off of Glimpse into exactly the creature you need? The only thing GSZ really has going for it is the ability to be a Llanawar Elf by fetching Dryad Arbor, after that SotF has just way more raw power than GSZ because its a repeatable tutor. It far better at helping you "go off" as well as being better at generating value if matches get grindy. I just can't believe a creature based combo deck that can generate tons of green mana wouldn't want a repeatable creature tutor, so if SotF was to come back the really issue becomes whether you cut GSZ or NO from the deck as you don't have space for all three.

Pretty much any creature you draw off of Glimpse is one you want to play. Also, GSZ pretty much IS a creature you draw off of Glimpse that transforms itself into exactly the creature I might need. SotF isn't a card you'd want to use during a Glimpse chain but rather a card you'd use to sculpt a boardstate that allows you to NO for the win.

If you can't believe it, try playing it. Maybe then you'll understand.

Also, I'm agreeing with Danyul - enough about Elves! and back to the original topic!

[nedleeds]

GSZ -> F Revoker. F Abrupt Decay. F Chalice. Insane top deck. Please. Stop with survival is too good for legacy. It'd be a good card. No more dominating or ubiquitous than Brainstorm, Force, Show and Tell, GSZ, SFM, Jace etc..

[Bed Decks Palyer]

GSZ -> F Revoker. F Abrupt Decay. F Chalice. Insane top deck. Please.
What is this I don't even.

[conboy31]

What is this I don't even.

Green Sun is standing at the podium calling out cards. Revoker? Can't touch me brah. Abrupt Decay, nah I am a sorcery. Chalice? I'll climb that ladder. I have stremph.

At least that is what I figured was going on. Could be markedly off.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Seems reasonable.