SCG and its not-as-lousy-as-WotC coverage

[Quasim0ff]

http://i.imgur.com/KQ54qvU.png
Interesting take on Miracles.

to be fair, v. clique is pretty OP vs combo

Also, Eli Kassis has some pretty insane cards in general

[PirateKing]

This isn't a card interaction, so I won't post it there, but I have a questions none the less. Here seems close enough to on topic to warrant the post. Watching SCGNJ coverage and I noticed a player make some goblin tokens and then put his own tokens on the table. A short moment later someone off camera gives him some SCG brand tokens, and the player motions to his own already on the field as if to say, "no thanks, I brought my own". However the off camera person seems to insist and the token on the table are replaced by SCG brand tokens. I was wondering if this is somehow enforceable by Star City Games, if you produced token creatures, you had to use theirs to represent them, or could you refuse since you brought your own?

[Megadeus]

Gotta push their brand more I guess.

[danyul]

They always do that. And yeah, it's most likely a Branding thing.

[PirateKing]

They always do that. And yeah, it's most likely a Branding thing.

Right but if you refused outright, said these are my tokens, I will use them, what response do they return with?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I will straight up tell them if they don't like my tokens then they are more than welcome to take me off camera. I never signed anything requiring me to use their cheap crappy "player rewards" tokens on my foil Japanese Batterskull. Eat it, big business.

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[danyul]

I'm not sure. It's always a table judge who is making a fuss about the tokens. And people aren't exactly in the habit of telling a table judge to go away. I'm sure the judges have SCG orders from on high. Actually, there has to be a judge floating around The Source somewhere with SCG experience. We should investigate...

[TheArchitect]

I believe it's there attempt to make coverage more understandable. They replace your dice with clearly visible black/white ones and enforce the use of the "tarmogoyf die". It's a bit silly, but they are very consist about it. Even if your dice look exactly your theirs, they still swap them.

[nedleeds]

There may be something in the fine print of the coverage release people sign prior to SCGs.

"You will use our tokens in the likeness of the following internet magic heroes:"

[nedleeds]

I believe it's there attempt to make coverage more understandable. They replace your dice with clearly visible black/white ones and enforce the use of the "tarmogoyf die". It's a bit silly, but they are very consist about it. Even if your dice look exactly your theirs, they still swap them.

It's still the DCIs game, governed by the DCI floor rules. The Tarmogoyf die should be up to the players, not the organizer. If one player wants to note it's current p/t that's fine but if both decline I can't imagine the organizer should be providing coaching.

[phazonmutant]

I'm not sure. It's always a table judge who is making a fuss about the tokens. And people aren't exactly in the habit of telling a table judge to go away. I'm sure the judges have SCG orders from on high. Actually, there has to be a judge floating around The Source somewhere with SCG experience. We should investigate...

The only applicable penalty I can think of is USC: Minor for failing to follow the instructions of a tournament official. It seems to me that the judge would have to be feeling particularly feisty to give a warning for not using particular tokens though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Wouldn't the DCI just overturn the ruling anyway?

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[PirateKing]

USC- Minor was the same conclusion I came to, but then you are investigating the scope to which tournament officials have power within the game. We've touched upon it before with "how bad do you have to smell before you're removed?" lines of questioning. But yeah, I'd hope the DCI would overturn it. Either that or reveal just how much they're in the pocket of Star City.

[cdr]

The directive to use SCG tokens is coming from SCG, not judges. You have to keep in mind that judges working SCG events are working as SCG employees, either on contract or a good few even directly. This is especially true in features, where the "judge" there is doing maybe 95% features work and 5% judging.

How much SCG can actually force you to use their branded materials is up to how much WotC lets them get away with. Since pro-level events (GPs, PTs, etc) are WotC marketing, WotC can in fact force you to (say) go on camera or kick you out of the event if you refuse. SCG is certainly within rights to, say, decide to not feature you if you refuse their tokens, but I doubt they're ballsy enough to try to go further than that.

SCG cannot use judge penalties to enforce their marketing, and they wouldn't be stupid enough to try. Also, there is no "DCI". It was always a thin fiction for "WotC", and the fiction was dropped many years ago.

[Megadeus]

I mean it's mostly for the viewer, the goyfs die that is. Tokens it depends. If I have my own that clearly say Goblin, or spirit or whatever then I could see it, but I can understand for the viewers sake why they would not allow like my football cards that I tried to use on cam

[Michael Keller]

The directive to use SCG tokens is coming from SCG, not judges. You have to keep in mind that judges working SCG events are working as SCG employees, either on contract or a good few even directly. This is especially true in features, where the "judge" there is doing maybe 95% features work and 5% judging.

How much SCG can actually force you to use their branded materials is up to how much WotC lets them get away with. Since pro-level events (GPs, PTs, etc) are WotC marketing, WotC can in fact force you to (say) go on camera or kick you out of the event if you refuse. SCG is certainly within rights to, say, decide to not feature you if you refuse their tokens, but I doubt they're ballsy enough to try to go further than that. SCG cannot use judge penalties to enforce their marketing, and they wouldn't be stupid enough to try.

I'm also sure that would go a long way with their PR if they actually kicked someone off camera for not using their tokens. I think they're seriously misguided into thinking that somehow it's a privilege to be on their stream, when in fact some people just want to play Magic and don't care whether they're seen or not.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

In fact, I have several buddies that are literally extremely "camera shy." They hate doing good at events that SCG puts on simply for this reason. They feel their play suffers because of their nerves, and in the couple occasions that it's occurred, they weren't wrong. Not swords'ing a Goyf that's swinging for lethal and they have only a stifle in hand (and you KNOW about it) has got to be a terrible feeling to any player, but it's devastatingly embarrassing to do it on camera. This is especially true if you would have made no such misplay if you weren't worrying about being on-camera. So stupid. I like my foil non-SCG/WotC cool art Angel tokens, and I fully plan on playing them. They say what they are (Angel), what effects they have (flying) and an accurate P/T, all of which are easily readable and in the standard token fashion. Same goes for my Spirit tokens and Elemental tokens. Kick me off the camera. Idc.

-ABC

[danyul]

That's legit. I'm sure plenty of on-camera misplays can be attributed to nerves. That's why I try not to talk shit when people mess up on camera. I really shouldn't talk shit at all. But plenty of people go hog-wild in Twitter and even here when some normal dude makes a mistake on coverage.

[Megadeus]

Pretty sure you can decline to be on camera

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Not in qfinals, semi finals or finals.

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[Megadeus]

I could see that being true. To be fair, most of the time the split the semi finals though, so winning is simply for bagging rights, PW points, and SCG points

[Parcher]

I don't know if it's me that is being referred to here, since it was Zombies, not Goblins, but it was me that this happened to on-camera at SCG Somerset. And not for the first time.

I made some Zombies, and put my "Gage" tokens on the field.

227

The table judge then tries to replace them with Sam Black tokens. I say no thanks. When he insists, I say that I'm not using those. He asks "if I have permission" to not use them, and chats into his microphone for a minute. He then re-insists. Ross and I were having a great time outside of that, so I just dropped it.

The best part by far though, was in game three when I made 15 Zombies in one turn. Well, they only had 8 Sam Black tokens. So they gave me another 4 generic Zombies tokens, and were completely out. So I cheerfully started using my own. Matthias and Sully lost their shit in the commenting booth, laughing at the ridiculousness of it all. Then, of course, some off-camera SCG employee slips a few more generic Zombies they grabbed from another feature onto the table. And I'm too busy winning at that point to care.

I get feature matches all the time at these, but rarely on camera. I always try to use my own playmat and tokens, and there's always a conflict. Plus, Dredge doesn't make for good TV to the general public. Either that, or I'm just too pretty.

[lordofthepit]

Complaints about having to use standardized tokens really reinforces the concept that Magic players will complain about anything.

Disclaimer: I'm not 100% innocent myself.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I spend money on cool art and other "pimp" aspects, some of it even has come from SCG. Then I go to a large event where i can, if im lucky, show it off on camera, to have some stupid commercially designed piece of crap token jammed down my throat? No. And I will bitch about it. Art, like testing, shouldn't be standardized.

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[Megadeus]

Like I said, when it comes to tokens, as long as the tokens are definitely Zombies in the eyes of your opponent and the viewer, I dont see the issue. We must remember that SCG is trying to make the viewing experience easy for the people watching. Tuning in halfway and seeing random tokens on the board, you may not know exactly what is going on. As for the Goyf die, I kinda like it. Not having to recount the yard over and over is nice, and as a viewer it's great.

[nedleeds]

What if I hate Sam Black or BVD or CVB or whoever? What if one of them punched my mother? If I have official MTG tokens I would think they'd leave it alone. Some of my russian signed tokens took time and money to get I'd be peeved having to use some idiotic looking internet rando as my germ.

This is all moot since I'm unlikely to be 4-0+ and get a camera match anyway.

[thecrav]

I believe it's there attempt to make coverage more understandable. They replace your dice with clearly visible black/white ones and enforce the use of the "tarmogoyf die".

The tarmagoogle die is the one I don't like (as a player - as a viewer I love it). If you can't keep track of how big your opponent's goyf is, you deserve to lose to an incorrect block. I'm pretty sure this also qualifies as derived information as described in section 4.1 of the MTR. (Feel free to correct me, but it seems to me that it even falls into the very first example of derived information)

edit: The Magic Judges blog article on this subject (http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2011/05/what-is-derived-information/) expressly calls Goyf's P/T derived information. The article is written by an L2 and the blog is staffed by judges up to L5 so I'm inclined to believe this is correct.

[cdr]

edit: The Magic Judges blog article on this subject (http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2011/05/what-is-derived-information/) expressly calls Goyf's P/T derived information. The article is written by an L2 and the blog is staffed by judges up to L5 so I'm inclined to believe this is correct.

It is obviously correct, it's derived information. SCG is the first entity to push players to this degree to play differently for the benefit of streaming coverage (and the benefit of SCG's advertising), and there's a question of how much WotC will let them interfere with players for that. If you don't like them doing that, I'd complain to WotC.

Personally, I think if they want Tarmo's P/T displayed, they should be doing it as a video overlay.

[thecrav]

If you don't like them doing that, I'd complain to WotC.

As just a viewer, I feel odd about complaining to WotC about such a thing but I'd definitely protest if they required me to use it.



Personally, I think if they want Tarmo's P/T displayed, they should be doing it as a video overlay.

I agree. The other things they display make it obvious that they have that ability. I think they prefer to use the die because it's difficult for them to determine at a glance what cards are in a graveyard. This could be remedied by simply taking notes (as could many of the complaints in this thread) but based on the other things that could be remedied this way, that's not an option that they wish to pursue.

[thecrav]

Osyp: This Green Sun's Zenith will probably be for Mother of Runes

Cedric: I assure you, it will not.

[Megadeus]

I really want to make Green Painter so my GSZ can be awesome. Or NO for Emrakul

[thecrav]

I really want to make Green Painter so my GSZ can be awesome. Or NO for Emrakul

Go all the way and GSZ for Emrakul.

[Megadeus]

Yeah... Or like Green sun for Trinket mage, fetching grindstone plus activation. You could run Mainboard Deathmark. Too strong.

[Megadeus]

At least we got to see Todd Anderson just have all the combo pieces for Sneak and Show in his hand and win an easy match.

[HammafistRoob]

You know, I actually feel that Cedric's format knowledge has been improving. Just a few months ago I was constantly disagreeing with him, but now it's only a few times per match.

[bakofried]

I'm confused, it looked like the Anderson's Merfolk opponent had both Phantasmal Image and Cavern of Souls in hand prior to the weird Hurkyl's Recall thing?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

He looked uncomfortable. Quite possibly because of being on camera. I think he meant to play the Image, but f'ed up and then scooped. Alternatively, he may have thought that Emrakul was an artifact. If he didn't, I have no understanding of why he would board in HRecall in the first place.

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[Megadeus]

Yeah I think when he realized recall didn't do anything he got flustered and scooped

[Darkenslight]

One of the thiungs that bothered me, was in round 5, I think, when neither commentator wanted to move to the other feature match, which was High Tide (not sure if Spring Tide or Solidarity) vs ...something.

Thatw as annoying, although the feature match they had was an interesting clusterfuck of TNN vs Maverick.

[JDK]

At least SCG has a decent overlay. Compare it to the madness Wizards just used for GP Manchester: http://i.imgur.com/91UpHcn.png

[Barook]

At least SCG has a decent overlay.
This

I don't get how other big streamers *cough* Wizards *cough* can't get their shit together and provide an overlay on par of SCG. This isn't rocket science, especially when already shown how it's done right.

[Arcbound Twerker]

This

I don't get how other big streamers *cough* Wizards *cough* can't get their shit together and provide an overlay on par of SCG. This isn't rocket science, especially when already shown how it's done right.

SCG Coverage blows AWAY Wizards' coverage by a country mile. All of the US commentators are forgettable. Specifically Marshall Sutcliffe, for a guy who quit his day job to do coverage, you'd think one would learn something about constructed formats. I kid you not, just a couple months ago at a Standard GP he once asked, "Is Hero's Downfall still being played?" No Marshall, it only is the premier removal spell in format ....

But as for the new overlay crap? Blame Rich Hagon. He is the person responsible for all European coverage. I have hated him in the past for his commentary, but after that decision with that horrendous overlay, I have to wonder what WotC is doing letting this guy be in charge.

Oh, would it kill WotC to provide larger, visible dice for players under the camera? Yeesh. Are they completely oblivious or just lazy?

[Barook]

But as for the new overlay crap? Blame Rich Hagon. He is the person responsible for all European coverage. I have hated him in the past for his commentary, but after that decision with that horrendous overlay, I have to wonder what WotC is doing letting this guy be in charge.
Rich Hagon? So that's the name of the annoying guy with glasses. I hate him, too.

Wizards' handling of staff is extremely poor. See: All people responsible for the horrible mess called MTGO who get away with delivering a subpar experience. When you're personally at the point where you wish that a big corporation like Hasbro steps in to get shit back on track, you know they fucked up big time.

[lordofthepit]

you know they fucked up big time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2v-8ctq5x4

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The entire company could use an overhaul. From R&D to marketing and productivity all the way to advertising.

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[JDK]

You know who Wizards is desperately needing, right?

http://blog.heartland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ronswanson.jpg

[Lemnear]

Rich Hagon? So that's the name of the annoying guy with glasses. I hate him, too.

Wizards' handling of staff is extremely poor. See: All people responsible for the horrible mess called MTGO who get away with delivering a subpar experience. When you're personally at the point where you wish that a big corporation like Hasbro steps in to get shit back on track, you know they fucked up big time.

You expect, that a company, that is unwilling to let Tom LaPille go, after him insulting the whole eternal community, will ever draw a line for their employees? Hell, look how they handle positions within the design team.

[cdr]

Hagon just wants to do coverage worse than anyone, so he gets gigs by sheer doggedness. Supposedly he appeals to casuals, but I dunno. He has no range, all he can do is repeat the same half-dozen phrases over and over in the same artifical tone.


You expect, that a company, that is unwilling to let Tom LaPille go, after him insulting the whole eternal community, will ever draw a line for their employees? Hell, look how they handle positions within the design team.

Don't forget Lapille leaking B/R list changes early to his pals.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That's essentially insider trading in the magic community. Do they do blow together as well?

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[Einherjer]

Any chance we could change the title? SCG has improved their coverage in pretty much all aspects. It's far from perfect - but lousy? I don't think so.

Greetings

[Megadeus]

One improvement it's that they begin earlier. For awhile they weren't doing coverage until the fourth, sometimes fifth round.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@ Einherjer: Why? Do you feel libelous? I'm not sure what you mean to accomplish by changing a title on a message board thread. Maybe "Sunday SCG Legacy Streaming Discussion" or something like that? Maybe, but why? Does this offend your appeal to morality? I guess if it would help I could start complaining about their business model as applicable to the legacy community; rocketing prices of staples such as duals, wastes and other comparable necessities as they see fit simply because they have the "largest collection of MtG cards in the world." That's not what the majority of discussion here has been about but I feel like it should be able to be discussed here if someone decides they need a vent session. $130 ports are all that's keeping me from D&T. A jump in blue duals set me back 4 months in being able to complete BUG Delver dated simply on this. They are creating a secondary market monopoly, and that feels to me to be "lousy legacy coverage" from SCG. Call me nuts.

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[Barook]

The entire company could use an overhaul. From R&D to marketing and productivity all the way to advertising.
That isn't going to happen until they regularly fail projected goals. Considering how well MtG is currently doing, I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon. As long as Wizards does well, Hasbro's shareholders won't care.

It's pretty frustrating to see how many aspects of their brand is mismanaged.


Hell, look how they handle positions within the design team.
Are you talking about the "Maro Ass-kissing Score Board"? :really:

What's mind-boggling to this very day is how Alexis Janson could win the first Great Designer Search while Kenneth Nagle was clearly the better candidate with the better designs. Nagle was involved in significantly more set designs (especially as a lead designer) than Janson, who got only Dragon's Maze after God knows how many years - and boy, this set sucked, sold like ass and was negatively-received all around.

I can already imagine how things went down when they chose the finals:

"So - who are we going to the GDS finale?"
"Dude, we have to invite the girl."
"Wait, we have a girl?"
"OMG, a girl?"
"GIRL!"

*after Janson reached the headquarter*

"Well, fuck."

I can imagine that they chose Janson to show how "open-minded" they are or whatever corporate crap. Certainly speaks volumes about their general modus operandi.

And the worst part about these entire mismanagements? We can't do anything about it. Wizards can goof around because Hasbro doesn't care as long as they make profit while SCG and other big secondary market players jack up the prices across the board.

Back to topic:
Yes, SCG coverage has improved, especially from the five consecutive rounds of Deathblade circlejerks. I dont complain about the early rounds of Legacy not being covered since the commentators need a break, too. But only setting up two feature matches per Legacy round while Standard has several still seems half-assed.

Also, what was the reason they fired Reuben Bressler at the beginning of the year? The blonde guy with the glasses was a way worse replacement for him.

[Lemnear]

Don't forget Lapille leaking B/R list changes early to his pals.

There there clues that's indeed that case, but no evidence. The point is that he accumulated and raised more issues and bad reputation than any other employee could do within a company without taking his hat. After all that bullshit he just switched to D&D for a year to get out of the line of fire and returned to development after that. Too many decisions made in that company seem solely based on "buddy-level"

[cdr]

There there clues that's indeed that case, but no evidence. The point is that he accumulated and raised more issues and bad reputation than any other employee could do within a company without taking his hat. After all that bullshit he just switched to D&D for a year to get out of the line of fire and returned to development after that. Too many decisions made in that company seem solely based on "buddy-level"

Oh, there's evidence. Just not publicly released.

[Vicar in a tutu]

You expect, that a company, that is unwilling to let Tom LaPille go, after him insulting the whole eternal community, will ever draw a line for their employees? Hell, look how they handle positions within the design team.
What did Tom LaPille do to insult the eternal community? (This is not snark, I'm genuinely curious.)

[Lemnear]

What did Tom LaPille do to insult the eternal community? (This is not snark, I'm genuinely curious.)

"Gentleman's Agreement" - His private testing against random kiddie decks is more worth than actual results and the Legacy Community is either too dumb to reach his conclusion that a) Mystical Tutor needs a banning and b) storm is far too good or that players have some kind of "Pact" to not play storm in tournaments. He kept on patting his own shoulder about this and called everyone who did not agree with his arrogant actions stupid resulting into a shitstorm and getting him moved to D&D for a year or so

[Barook]

He also called Great Sable Stag THE solution to Dredge.

[Vicar in a tutu]

"Gentleman's Agreement" - His private testing against random kiddie decks is more worth than actual results and the Legacy Community is either too dumb to reach his conclusion that a) Mystical Tutor needs a banning and b) storm is far too good or that players have some kind of "Pact" to not play storm in tournaments. He kept on patting his own shoulder about this and called everyone who did not agree with his arrogant actions stupid resulting into a shitstorm and getting him moved to D&D for a year or so
Do you have any links to the shitstorm? I'm really curious as to how he interacted with the community. (This was before I started playing Magic again, I quit around 2002 and joined the fray again in 2011.)

[Lemnear]

Do you have any links to the shitstorm? I'm really curious as to how he interacted with the community. (This was before I started playing Magic again, I quit around 2002 and joined the fray again in 2011.)

I'm sure you can find the article, the comments and the shitstoem in the WotC forum

[Darkenslight]

SCG Coverage blows AWAY Wizards' coverage by a country mile. All of the US commentators are forgettable. Specifically Marshall Sutcliffe, for a guy who quit his day job to do coverage, you'd think one would learn something about constructed formats. I kid you not, just a couple months ago at a Standard GP he once asked, "Is Hero's Downfall still being played?" No Marshall, it only is the premier removal spell in format ....

But as for the new overlay crap? Blame Rich Hagon. He is the person responsible for all European coverage. I have hated him in the past for his commentary, but after that decision with that horrendous overlay, I have to wonder what WotC is doing letting this guy be in charge.

Oh, would it kill WotC to provide larger, visible dice for players under the camera? Yeesh. Are they completely oblivious or just lazy?

Actually, I'm going to defend Rich here, as Rich is most definitely passionate about the game, and he always wants to get better. He has done in the fifteen years I've known him, playing PTQs for Honolulu in 2001, and working with him on amateur dramatic projects.

Marshall, though, is...not really doing a good job for Wizards on his commentaries, and needs to improve big-time. He's basically at the position that Cedric was at the start of the year, onyl he's been there for a lot longer.

[Lemnear]

It's like getting an ESPN on-screen job without caring for sports nor being interrested in learning the rules of basketball or football but your employer hoping that you'll catch fire at some point. Ridiculous

[Deviruchi]

Do you have any links to the shitstorm? I'm really curious as to how he interacted with the community. (This was before I started playing Magic again, I quit around 2002 and joined the fray again in 2011.)

They tested Legacy in the tournament practice room.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/96

[Bertrand Hustle]

A few points to address, but I'll start here

Any chance we could change the title? SCG has improved their coverage in pretty much all aspects. It's far from perfect - but lousy? I don't think so.

Greetings
Much like any other sports coverage, people love to chastise and complain. Whenever I watch football (soccer) it's always something about the refs, players or the commentary.

As for Wizards vs SCG streams... I think one key difference is that Wizard's commentary doesn't have the surface level irony that a lot of sports broadcasting does (saying really obvious stuff) and the commentators say genuinely stupid things on a regular basis, which is inexcusable. It's worse than the Olympics, which I think is the best analogue here. Broadcasters talking about details like Guru lands or going on about what the player's internal emotions must be (or even shilling for their product/talking about the prize money) instead of the cards in hand or explaining the play, whereas the Olympics broadcasters in a similar manner eschew meaningful analysis for emotional background/development pertaining to the athlete. Both have enormous talent pools from which they can draw skilled commentators but instead people who are somewhat removed from the realities of the game at hand are going on about irrelevant details. SCG does get all of this right to a greater degree and recently, yes; They have stepped up their game. That doesn't mean we can't sit down and have shop talk over a beer while we watch a stream. It goes back to my first point. Few people in this thread genuinely hate any of the broadcasters, we're just complaining to be complaining a good deal of the time.

That being said, SCGLive has some really dumb moments, no doubt at all in my mind. I love to complain and talk shit just as much as the next person and shake my head at stupid shit from the luxury of my own home. While SCG does get stuff wrong and I am highly skeptical of them, I like to watch Legacy and I'm glad there is a stream.

[Lemnear]

They tested Legacy in the tournament practice room.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/96

Still get angry re-reading that shit

[Lord Seth]

"Gentleman's Agreement" - His private testing against random kiddie decks is more worth than actual results and the Legacy Community is either too dumb to reach his conclusion that a) Mystical Tutor needs a banning and b) storm is far too good or that players have some kind of "Pact" to not play storm in tournaments. He kept on patting his own shoulder about this and called everyone who did not agree with his arrogant actions stupid resulting into a shitstorm and getting him moved to D&D for a year or soAs bad as the gentlemen's agreement explanation was, no one seems to argue that Mystical Tutor should actually be unbanned. Heck, I see more people argue for freaking Mental Misstep to be unbanned than Mystical Tutor.


He also called Great Sable Stag THE solution to Dredge.You know, I've heard this claim a lot, but I've never actually seen anyone give a source. Can someone provide one? I'm especially curious because the normal claim is that he said it was the answer to Blue; I've never seen anyone claim before this that he said it was the answer to Dredge.

[jandax]

Still get angry re-reading that shit

It's draconian and aggravating, and that was my first time reading it

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I felt like I was back in high school with a teacher that was used to a 1st grade classroom. I'm not sure I ever felt that a blue, instant speed tutor was ever second seed to anything.

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[TsumiBand]

You know, I've heard this claim a lot, but I've never actually seen anyone give a source. Can someone provide one? I'm especially curious because the normal claim is that he said it was the answer to Blue; I've never seen anyone claim before this that he said it was the answer to Dredge.

Pretty sure the Great Sable Stag quote was from his Twitter account, not sure. It is indeed difficult to verify. I know he's used GSS as an example of "silver bullet" answers to Blue stuff before; he mentions it in the same breath as Volcanic Fallout as 'anti Faeries tech' in some article about Faeries and sideboarding and pants and stuff. It's on the google. I not link to it right now. vOv

[ESG]

Thumbs up for the new thread title.

On Tom LaPille, his comment about Great Sable Stag was regarding how to beat Mental Misstep. It may have been a joke gone awry, but since he never answered the resulting booing and hissing from the Legacy community, people assumed he was being serious and just was clueless. He definitely was a lightning rod for a while. The story with Dredge was that Tom came to a big unsanctioned Northwest tournament with UW Stoneblade and got beat, in rather humiliating fashion, by a Manaless Dredge deck late in the event. He then wrote an "Is this really Magic?" comment wherein he asked if Dredge and Storm were really playing Magic. He also was connected to the Mystical Tutor banning earlier, which was one of the more unpopular banning decisions at the time, although people seem to agree that the card merits banning now, so WOTC may have jumped the gun a bit early but weren't outright wrong.

Edit: I located a quote from that piece and a thread that popped up here afterward.

Tom posted, "Legacy and Vintage contain several decks that 'aren't Magic'. How much of that is healthy? How good should those decks be? 'aren't Magic' means that the game is about something unrecognizable, like dredge or storm or no one casting spells forever or something. My bar for 'real Magic' is pretty low- both players playing lands and tapping them to cast spells for four or more turns is plenty."

That led to the creation of this thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22282-Tom-LaPille-he-s-at-it-again

[Koby]

Pretty sure the Great Sable Stag quote was from his Twitter account, not sure. It is indeed difficult to verify. I know he's used GSS as an example of "silver bullet" answers to Blue stuff before; he mentions it in the same breath as Volcanic Fallout as 'anti Faeries tech' in some article about Faeries and sideboarding and pants and stuff. It's on the google. I not link to it right now. vOv

The quote is misattributed. LaPille went to say GSS was an excellent silver bullet to Faeries when it was popular in Standard. Nevermind that independently players concluded that Lightning Bolt was playable in the Faeries deck, and that the 3 mana 3/3 was still dead to the most efficient removal in the format and Faeries still won.

[Will_L]

I like Star City Games

They always have good cards in stock and they are great at delivering on time or ahead of time.

You pay a little a bit more for high end stuff but you are guaranteed great service in my experience.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I enjoy that they allow me to upgrade my duals as far as condition goes at events, and allow me to use bulk crap rares that no one will ever buy, want, or use to pay for the difference. That's not a service I have ever seen from any other company, and I've asked multiple sources. Also, I bitch about them often but in the end, I am always excited to get an opportunity to play in a tournament sponsored by them. I'm that guy.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

They let you upgrade your duals?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've done it twice now.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Darkenslight]

They let you upgrade your duals?

"Yes, Star City Games are proud to announce that, with Wizards of the Coast, we will be giving out tri-lands at our next SCG Opens! These cards are exclusive to SCG and can only be obtained by trading in one of each of the relevant dual-lands! Get them now while they're available, as there's a limited supply!"

Read by Evan Erwin a thousand times in between rounds ont heir stream.

[Barook]

"Yes, Star City Games are proud to announce that, with Wizards of the Coast, we will be giving out tri-lands at our next SCG Opens! These cards are exclusive to SCG and can only be obtained by trading in one of each of the relevant dual-lands! Get them now while they're available, as there's a limited supply!"

Read by Evan Erwin a thousand times in between rounds ont heir stream.
I've read that in his voice. I generally stop the stream or mute it since I can't stand his voice and the repetitive banter I don't care about.

While bitching about the SCG coverage, what's up with the current Player of the Year advertising? Is there actually anybody who gives a shit about the standings of the last quarter, especially when the same crap is repeated every hour, every week? Stop, just stop.

[Darkenslight]

So, today's matches have already been pretty diverse: Enchantress vs. Lands, and Stoneblade vs Goblins for the backup matches.

[Meekrab]

Feline just boarded in CounterTop, innnnnnteresting

[thecrav]

So, today's matches have already been pretty diverse: Enchantress vs. Lands, and Stoneblade vs Goblins for the backup matches.
(basing this off their twitter)

10 minutes into round 7 and we've had 6 feature matches featuring a total of 11 different decks. Only 2 delver decks and 3 Stoneforge decks.

R3: Sneak & Show v Junk
R3: Enchantress v Lands
R4: Esper Deathblade v Goblins
R5: High Tide v Sneak and Show
R6: Elves v BURG Delver
R7: U/G Cloudpost v Death & Taxes

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Damn. This had to be the weekend I am moving out to Colorado.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Barook]

Damn. This had to be the weekend I am moving out to Colorado.
I can't watch it either because I'm out with friends here, but I'm sure catching the archive tomorrow as it sounds like fun.

[Tormod]

Its pretty good.

I'm pulling weeds in the yard and watching mobile. Dave Shiels playing dnt w ghost quarters

[Megadeus]

I'm not a High Tide expert, but Counterbalance seems horrid to bring in vs Jund.

[Meekrab]

I'm not a High Tide expert, but Counterbalance seems horrid to bring in vs Jund.
It did sort of keep her from being blown out by the Dark Confidant.

[amalek0]

anyone else feel like Jared Boettcher waited far too long to pull the trigger on fire//ice in that top8 match?

Edit: Now commentators are saying not to block a dark confidant to prevent there being deathrite fodder--can't they count the three untapped black mana and instants in graveyards to make that actually an alpha strike if he doesn't block? #SCGcommentators

[Whippoorwill]

It did sort of keep her from being blown out by the Dark Confidant.

I think the Jund player's misplays helped her more than that. Pyroblast on a Flusterstorm copy when he could have just paid the 2. Also not using said Pryoblast to destroy Counterbalance when Feline just revealed a non-1-drop on top then went to use her Fetchland with no mana open.

[Megadeus]

anyone else feel like Jared Boettcher waited far too long to pull the trigger on fire//ice in that top8 match?

Edit: Now commentators are saying not to block a dark confidant to prevent there being deathrite fodder--can't they count the three untapped black mana and instants in graveyards to make that actually an alpha strike if he doesn't block? #SCGcommentators

Saw that one. I was like, well if he doesnt black he dies... so hopefully he blocks. Luckily he figured it out.

[amalek0]

it's one thing when they miss tricks in hand or strategic level things in obscure matchups. It's another thing entirely when the PAID PROFESSIONALS DOING COVERAGE fail to recognize an ENTIRELY ON-BOARD KILL from one of the most played decks in the format. It's distressing. They should sack the current crop of commentators for legacy (funny as they are, they just don't have the format knowledge) and get one or two of the Europeans who actually have the format knowledge to do commentating. Flying in Karsten Kotter (shoutout to Mr. Mons, Goblin Chief) if he's willing to move to the US or even seeing if one of the hatfield brothers would be willing to do it would be a vast improvement in the analysis of the commentary, even if they may not initially have the experience to be a professional broadcaster. I'm sick of hearing commentators completely miss obvious and important things that are basic on the table.

[thecrav]

I don't think they need to go as far as dumping the current commentators. I think what they really need to do is to take a note from existing sports. Both commentators don't need to be funny. Have one analyst and one color guy. I think they're trying to have Cedric do color with Pat at Analyst but I think they just don't have the right chemistry. Cedric is so gregarious and overwhelming that Patrick doesn't speak up or express strong opinions opting instead to let Cedric ramble on with a joke or a pop culture reference.

[ESG]

I don't think they need to go as far as dumping the current commentators. I think what they really need to do is to take a note from existing sports. Both commentators don't need to be funny. Have one analyst and one color guy. I think they're trying to have Cedric do color with Pat at Analyst but I think they just don't have the right chemistry. Cedric is so gregarious and overwhelming that Patrick doesn't speak up or express strong opinions opting instead to let Cedric ramble on with a joke or a pop culture reference.

Maybe it's just a different understanding of chemistry, but I think they have great chemistry. I even listened to Cedric's podcast to get more of their back-and-forth. Star City's commentators have improved a lot, so I'm happy that people in this thread are conceding that. Very often the tone is just negative, negative, negative when it comes to feedback, and I feel that that would be the case almost regardless of who was in the booth. Even someone like Carsten would get chewed up. Even if he somehow never made a single mistake, someone wouldn't like his patter, or his lack of patter, or his voice, or how he interacted with a co-commentator, or something else. Commentating a full tournament is a challenging feat to pull off, and pleasing everyone all of the time is an impossible goal. I'm thankful for the coverage that we have and that it's around on most weekends.

[Darkenslight]

it's one thing when they miss tricks in hand or strategic level things in obscure matchups. It's another thing entirely when the PAID PROFESSIONALS DOING COVERAGE fail to recognize an ENTIRELY ON-BOARD KILL from one of the most played decks in the format. It's distressing. They should sack the current crop of commentators for legacy (funny as they are, they just don't have the format knowledge) and get one or two of the Europeans who actually have the format knowledge to do commentating. Flying in Karsten Kotter (shoutout to Mr. Mons, Goblin Chief) if he's willing to move to the US or even seeing if one of the hatfield brothers would be willing to do it would be a vast improvement in the analysis of the commentary, even if they may not initially have the experience to be a professional broadcaster. I'm sick of hearing commentators completely miss obvious and important things that are basic on the table.

Commentating on anything for a full day is incredibly taxing; it doesn't matter what it is. For example, go and have a look at TotalBiscuit's recent Shoutcast Invitational videos. It's hard work, and although it's not quite as draining as playing a full weekend of Legacy, doing it as consistently for two days as the SCG team does is a good feat. And they have got a lot better at it, but they're still going to make mistakes. And that's okay, as we can give those people feedback on it.

[Michael Keller]

I've read that in his voice. I generally stop the stream or mute it since I can't stand his voice and the repetitive banter I don't care about.

While bitching about the SCG coverage, what's up with the current Player of the Year advertising? Is there actually anybody who gives a shit about the standings of the last quarter, especially when the same crap is repeated every hour, every week? Stop, just stop.

The "Player of the Year" race is basically a competition which will culminate in a victory given to their most diehard fanboy who traveled and played in their tournaments, which is actually kind of pathetic those people can't do something more constructive with their time. It means nothing to me as a player and historian of the game, and although I'm in no position to tell someone how to live their life, it's baffling to me these (predominantly younger men) are spending more time kissing Star City's ass when they can allocate their time and money doing something else to better their futures.

Competitive Magic like this can be suicide to one's time and energy. It's important for these younger players to know it's just a game and there really is more to life than playing Magic.

[Emo]

Commentating on anything for a full day is incredibly taxing; it doesn't matter what it is. For example, go and have a look at TotalBiscuit's recent Shoutcast Invitational videos. It's hard work, and although it's not quite as draining as playing a full weekend of Legacy, doing it as consistently for two days as the SCG team does is a good feat. And they have got a lot better at it, but they're still going to make mistakes. And that's okay, as we can give those people feedback on it.

I agree with this and I would much rather have a colorful announcer who occasionally "misinterprets" a board state then one who is dry but flawless. That is just me- the occasionally banter is what makes most boring matchups somewhat tolerable to watch.

[feline]

I think the Jund player's misplays helped her more than that. Pyroblast on a Flusterstorm copy when he could have just paid the 2. Also not using said Pryoblast to destroy Counterbalance when Feline just revealed a non-1-drop on top then went to use her Fetchland with no mana open.

Omg yes that was huge, not only did it end up stopping the Duress, it also got a Pyroblast out of his hand.

[Griselpuff]

Hollywood, do you feel differently about the Pro Tour? What about Poker?

[HammafistRoob]

No Hollywood hates the Pro Tour as well, and I can't really blame him since it is kind of a joke. Poker is different since there is actually tons of money at stake, just my .02.

[Einherjer]

No Hollywood hates the Pro Tour as well, and I can't really blame him since it is kind of a joke. Poker is different since there is actually tons of money at stake, just my .02.

Only people who havn't been on the Pro Tour call it a joke. Ever since I've been on one I am super motivated to get on more of them. The experience was outstanding. And yes, even though it wasn't Legacy.

Greetings

[Griselpuff]

So, if you can make large amounts of money, it's worth spending your youth on?

Sounds about right.

[HammafistRoob]

To be fair, once you're good at poker you don't have to "spend your youth" on it at all. The game stays the same. With magic, to be good enough to make it to the Pro Tour AND do well there, you pretty much have to eat, sleep, and breathe magic.

[ahg113]

To be fair, once you're good at poker you don't have to "spend your youth" on it at all. The game stays the same. With magic, to be good enough to make it to the Pro Tour AND do well there, you pretty much have to eat, sleep, and breathe magic.

So the same 52 cards that were in a poker deck last year will be in the same deck next year? If only Magic were so easy to figure out!

P.S. - I'm agreeing with you.

[Michael Keller]

Only people who havn't been on the Pro Tour call it a joke. Ever since I've been on one I am super motivated to get on more of them. The experience was outstanding. And yes, even though it wasn't Legacy.

Greetings

Just because people don't make it a priority to aspire to be on a Magic: the Gathering "Professional" Tour doesn't mean their opinion on it is invalid. I'm glad you like playing on them, but I can tell you there are a lot of other people who share the same sentiment I do because there really isn't much in my view that differentiates someone who plays on that circuit as opposed to someone who specializes in a specific format heads up against said person in a said event of the said format. This is why you really don't see the same people at the top all the time in a wide-open format like Legacy - because it is so diverse and no one has it all figured out or "code-cracked" the format where they'll always win - unlike Standard where the card pool is astronomically smaller. The format also appeals to more novice players, which gives player strength an unfair advantage in larger events.

The same is true for Legacy, but with a card pool as deep as it has, no deck has a clear-cut advantage over the rest.

I've been playing forever and never aspired to play on it because it never interested that much and to that degree. I've only competed in one Qualifier, and that was when Bill Clinton was still president. The game just doesn't interest me to that level.

I like the "underground," freestyle nature of the game. That makes it more appealing to me.

[JPoJohnson]

Not that this has anything to do with SCG Coverage, but I have absolutely no problem with people aspiring to play on the Pro Tour or become a full-time magic player. It's not something I will invest that much time and effort into, but more power to those that want to.

I also will not be aspiring/investing the amount of time in order to be a professional cyclist. It requires even more time, effort, and investment than Magic and I would say the vast majority of those that cycle on a somewhat professional level get less back from the sport than magic. I will enjoy cycling in my free time as I have and continue in that regard. Same with magic.

People have their interests, I see no reason to knock one interest over another because of bias or outside thoughts on the matter. Poker and magic are apples and oranges.

[cdr]

To be fair, once you're good at poker you don't have to "spend your youth" on it at all. The game stays the same. Wigh magic, to be good enough to make the Pro Tour you pretty much have to eat, sleep, and breath magic.

Though I don't pay much attention to poker at all, the people who finish on top seem to be the people who eat/sleep/breathe poker. Not much difference there that I can see. Having a team is enough to keep up with format-specific things, including taking the week before the PT off to test.

Very few MTG players play MTG as a living, and the few that do tend to be college-age. The vast majority of older pros have real jobs, even if they're game designers or whatever.

If you mean you have to grind a lot as a newb to develop skills/get noticed, then sure, but that's no different than poker either.

[Michael Keller]

Though I don't pay much attention to poker at all, the people who finish on top seem to be the people who eat/sleep/breathe poker. Not much difference there that I can see. Having a team is enough to keep up with format-specific things, including taking the week before the PT off to test.

Very few MTG players play MTG as a living, and the few that do tend to be college-age. The vast majority of older pros have real jobs, even if they're game designers or whatever.

I kind of liken the Pro Tour to that scene from "D2: The Mighty Ducks" from back in the day. Remember when the arrogant Team USA players took to the streets and played against a cohesive, street-assembled unit of players that kicked their asses? Same premise here. Just because the stage is bigger doesn't mean a whole lot. I would put my money on a Jeremiah Rudolph, a Jacob Kory, a Bryant Cook or any of the other long-time fellow Legacy enthusiasts in a dead-even heat against any of the SCGrinders like Braun-Duin and Anderson or Pro Tour players past and present like Chapin, PVDDR or Craig Wescoe in a swiss match of Legacy.

There is no clear-cut advantage in my eyes that differentiates these players from other people who take the format as seriously as I and the people I listed do. Are their accomplishments impressive, absolutely. But that's due in large part to the time they put into the game and level of seriousness they invest into it. That to me is still not the definition of a professional Magic player, because I feel that is a folly distinction.

TL;DR: Opposed to the title of "pro" Magic player, but not "super-awesome-good" Magic player.

[Einherjer]

You've never played a Hall of Famer yet, have you?

But I guess the Hall of Fame is nothing but a joke, right?

Greetings

[Koby]

TL;DR: Opposed to the title of "pro" Magic player, but not "super-awesome-good" Magic player.

Thanks for the shout out. True story, I'm 100% against both the 2013 World Champion and the 2013 Player of the Year; both matches covered on camera. :laugh:

[Michael Keller]

You've never played a Hall of Famer yet, have you?

But I guess the Hall of Fame is nothing but a joke, right?

Greetings

I've been playing Magic for twenty-one years basically nonstop, pal. I've met Hall of Famers. I'm good acquaintences with several Hall of Famers. To me the idea of a collectible card game Hall of Fame is ludicrous, and if I sat across from one of them, I hate to break it to you but I would not be intimidated the least in a sanctioned, Swiss set of Legacy.

That's no knock on them; it's just how I roll.

[Einherjer]

I've been playing Magic for 21 years basically nonstop, pal. I've met Hall of Famers. I'm good acquaintences with several Hall of Famers. To me the idea of a collectible card game Hall of Fame is ludicrous, and if I sat across from one of them, I hate to break it to you but I would not be intimidated the least in a sanctioned, Swiss set of Legacy.

Fair enough. I wish you all the best!

Greetings

[lordofthepit]

I respect Magic players for their skill, but I don't respect the concept of a Pro Tour. Magic is nowhere appealing enough as a spectator event (compared to sports or even chess) to justify significant prize support, and as such, even the best players cannot make a living from Pro Tour Magic.

Since it's not a true profession, the Pro Tour is reduced to competition for its own sake, which is perfectly fine--that's why I enjoy playing this game. However, until the Pro Tour features Legacy or Vintage, it is not an event that I'd be interested in following, regardless of how skilled those players are.

[Michael Keller]

Thanks for the shout out. True story, I'm 100% against both the 2013 World Champion and the 2013 Player of the Year; both matches covered on camera. :laugh:

There you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFYjOZu3nG8

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Pvddr:3 ultramix got second at gp Paris and bbd is responsible for the atrocity that is death blade, so I'm not so sure the local legacy enthusiasts are the clear favorites

There is a reason those guys perform consistently across formats

[Michael Keller]

Pvddr:3 ultramix got second at gp Paris and bbd is responsible for the atrocity that is death blade, so I'm not so sure the local legacy enthusiasts are the clear favorites

There is a reason those guys perform consistently across formats

I never said they were clear favorites; I said there is no clear favorite, or no edge in my eyes that bestows a distinction enough in Legacy or Vintage to give them an edge where you come right out and automatically crown them the winner before the match even starts.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

....your right, my bad

[lordofthepit]

Pvddr:3 ultramix got second at gp Paris

I thought a different Miracles player (not Einherjer) made 2nd. Interestingly, both that player and Einherjer accomplished this with no byes.

I would definitely consider the best Source players to at least be on par with many pro players who play some Legacy and better than those who don't play Legacy at all (on a level playing field, meaning someone like Signorini doesn't lose on tiebreakers simply because he had zero byes). Granted, the pros would be advantaged due to their technical skill f they actually invested more time in Legacy, but conversely, Legacy specialists can put up respectable showings in other events if they have the motivation to try them out (e.g. Lossett, who has several Standard Open wins).

[JPoJohnson]

TL;DR: Opposed to the title of "pro" Magic player, but not "super-awesome-good" Magic player.

This is hilarious.

[Einherjer]

I thought a different Miracles player (not Einherjer) made 2nd. Interestingly, both that player and Einherjer accomplished this with no byes.

I would definitely consider the best Source players to at least be on par with many pro players who play some Legacy and better than those who don't play Legacy at all (on a level playing field, meaning someone like Signorini doesn't lose on tiebreakers simply because he had zero byes). Granted, the pros would be advantaged due to their technical skill f they actually invested more time in Legacy, but conversely, Legacy specialists can put up respectable showings in other events if they have the motivation to try them out (e.g. Lossett, who has several Standard Open wins).

Yes, it was Maxime Gilles who placed 2nd, after dispatching me twice in the most amusing manner! (He ended my undefeated streak + put an end to my trophy dreams too during the Top8- but we went to the PT together, so... :) )

Greetings

EDIT: It's pretty far off-topic now, sorry. Maybe we should just move this discussion to a seperate thread.

[mort-]

EDIT: It's pretty far off-topic now, sorry. Maybe we should just move this discussion to a seperate thread.


Please do. It's a pretty interesting discussion. And I don't want to offend anybody, but "specialising" in Legacy is a joke, opposed to specialising in a Pro Tour format where you can actually metagame.

[Julian23]

Please do. It's a pretty interesting discussion. And I don't want to offend anybody, but "specialising" in Legacy is a joke, opposed to specialising in a Pro Tour format where you can actually metagame.

No, please don't set Philipp into rage mode again :eek:

[Finn]

I respect Magic players for their skill, but I don't respect the concept of a Pro Tour. Magic is nowhere appealing enough as a spectator event (compared to sports or even chess) to justify significant prize support, and as such, even the best players cannot make a living from Pro Tour Magic.

Since it's not a true profession, the Pro Tour is reduced to competition for its own sake, which is perfectly fine--that's why I enjoy playing this game. However, until the Pro Tour features Legacy or Vintage, it is not an event that I'd be interested in following, regardless of how skilled those players are.I thought I would mention that the World Cup exists to celebrate the world's most popular sport which is played by millions or billions of people in a variety of venues whether or not there is a World Cup. Matt Elias invented the Magic Pro Tour specifically to create interest in this game, and especially newly released sets. The prize support is just enough to keep pros playing, and not a penny more. To be a successful pro, your life must be put on hold.

[Richard Cheese]

I've been playing Magic for twenty-one years basically nonstop, pal. I've met Hall of Famers. I'm good acquaintences with several Hall of Famers. To me the idea of a collectible card game Hall of Fame is ludicrous, and if I sat across from one of them, I hate to break it to you but I would not be intimidated the least in a sanctioned, Swiss set of Legacy.

That's no knock on them; it's just how I roll.

This man is a
REAL AMERICAN


That does not look nearly as awesome as I'd hoped, but it took me like 4 minutes so I'm posting it anyways.

[TheArchitect]

I thought I would mention that the World Cup exists to celebrate the world's most popular sport which is played by millions or billions of people in a variety of venues whether or not there is a World Cup. Matt Elias invented the Magic Pro Tour specifically to create interest in this game, and especially newly released sets. The prize support is just enough to keep pros playing, and not a penny more. To be a successful pro, your life must be put on hold.

I feel almost sorry for the "pros". For most of them, magic is their life. Getting paid for appearences, content generation and winning prizes, gives them just enough that they make a living off of it, but only if they keep being super-invested in the game and grind all the big events humanly possible. They basically can't have a real life. How do you have a significant other, a real job, friends that are not also traveling grinders or family/kids? They would have to put their lives on hold. When they get burntout/bored of the game or in 10+ years when magic just isn't a thing anymore, they have nothing. They are going to be 40 year olds with the life, experience and relationships of a 20 year old.

I am not saying it wouldn't be fun for a while but it seems like a really bad long term plan.

[Julian23]

Thanks for the shout out. True story, I'm 100% against both the 2013 World Champion and the 2013 Player of the Year; both matches covered on camera. :laugh:

HIGH FIVE, Koby! We should open up a club or something. :cool:

[Megadeus]

Meh. If people want to grind away and play all day, I say let them. Thats fine. Its a choice. They arent forced into it. Though I agree that in a legacy event, some of the better guys who basically only play this format certainly have an advantage.

[aahz]

Thanks for the shout out. True story, I'm 100% against both the 2013 World Champion and the 2013 Player of the Year; both matches covered on camera. :laugh:
HIGH FIVE, Koby! We should open up a club or something. :cool:
I want to party with you guys! My only match ever on video is beating David Ochoa in the finals for all of the marbles at a Vintage event (available somewhere on the youtubez). I even offered to split, but I guess he wanted revenge (or correctly determined that I'm bad at Magic) after I stomped him in the swiss despite multiple missed triggers and stupid mistakes. And I just beat Smmenen 2-0 playing for Top 4 at the Vintage event on Sunday (so I'm 100% against him since I've managed to dodge him in all of the events we've both played in, which is probably double digits by now). Am I cool enough? Please? I know I'm 0-1 against Koby in Vintage, but I play old skool, too. :wink:

Full disclosure: Ochoa crushed me in the Workshop mirror the next time I played him, so my overall match record against him is 2-1.


I respect Magic players for their skill, but I don't respect the concept of a Pro Tour. Magic is nowhere appealing enough as a spectator event (compared to sports or even chess) to justify significant prize support, and as such, even the best players cannot make a living from Pro Tour Magic.

Since it's not a true profession, the Pro Tour is reduced to competition for its own sake, which is perfectly fine--that's why I enjoy playing this game. However, until the Pro Tour features Legacy or Vintage, it is not an event that I'd be interested in following, regardless of how skilled those players are.
+1

Really good players dueling with Vintage decks would make Magic a solid spectator sport. Even Legacy is kind of meh, since it's entirely dependent on which decks are involved. A Pro-Tour style high stakes event split between Vintage and Legacy (possibly even including Modern) would be awesome to watch though.

[Megadeus]

An Eternal "Invitational" would indeed be sweet. As suggested for a tourney we may do coming up, Vintage/Legacy swiss. 3 rounds of each, Top 8, high seed chooses the format.

[PirateKing]

Pro Tour always seemed like a doubleplusFNM. Neat for those who care for Standard, but pretty useless outside of those who do.

[nedleeds]

Thanks for the shout out. True story, I'm 100% against both the 2013 World Champion and the 2013 Player of the Year; both matches covered on camera. :laugh:

I'm 2-0 vs. World champs as well. I beat Alexander Blumke at Origins, and Hiromichi Itou at Bazaar of Moxen (with a concussion). Neither on camera, actually I think the Blumke match was prior to digital video existing.

[Lord Seth]

Really good players dueling with Vintage decks would make Magic a solid spectator sport. Even Legacy is kind of meh, since it's entirely dependent on which decks are involved. A Pro-Tour style high stakes event split between Vintage and Legacy (possibly even including Modern) would be awesome to watch though.Switching to Vintage doesn't make it a solid spectator sport because it doesn't do anything to remove the reason Magic isn't a particularly great spectator sport: It requires considerable knowledge of the game to actually have the faintest clue what's going on, and the game constantly changes so even if you literally memorized every card and every rule interaction, you'd become lost a few years later if you didn't keep up. A big reason something like Soccer is popular to watch is because it's very easy to grasp what's going on: "Kick the ball around and get it into the other team's goal to score points." Wham. With just that sentence, I can understand a game of Soccer pretty well, even if I don't know all of the intricacies. That sure as heck isn't true for Magic no matter what format it is.

[Esper3k]

I actually think being a professional MTG player when you are younger would probably be pretty fun. Of course as you get older, what you're wanting out of life tends to change, but I think for someone like Reid Duke, his life must be pretty awesome right now.

[Scott]

I beat ... Hiromichi Itou at Bazaar of Moxen (with a concussion).

Did you beat him while you suffered the effects of a concussion, or did you beat him with a concussion you doled out to him? Inquiring minds want to know.

[aahz]

Switching to Vintage doesn't make it a solid spectator sport because it doesn't do anything to remove the reason Magic isn't a particularly great spectator sport: It requires considerable knowledge of the game to actually have the faintest clue what's going on, and the game constantly changes so even if you literally memorized every card and every rule interaction, you'd become lost a few years later if you didn't keep up. A big reason something like Soccer is popular to watch is because it's very easy to grasp what's going on: "Kick the ball around and get it into the other team's goal to score points." Wham. With just that sentence, I can understand a game of Soccer pretty well, even if I don't know all of the intricacies. That sure as heck isn't true for Magic no matter what format it is.
That's a fair point, but it's not quite as black and white as you paint it. While soccer can, perhaps, be summed up simply as you suggest, other spectator sports are not necessarily so straightforward. I have tried to explain baseball to someone with no prior knowledge/experience with the game, and it's at least the same ballpark in terms of arbitrary complexity/rules as explaining MtG. Vintage and Legacy are better for spectators than other formats precisely because they don't rotate so the major players (power, duals, fetches, wastes, etc.) don't turn over to get replaced year after year. Once you know the basic rules, staple cards, and key interactions, it's not that bad. However, decent presentation (i.e. timely popups of cards, etc.) centered around commentators that are knowledgeable as well as nimble enough mentally to be able to communicate effectively what's happening to viewers with less background in real time, including nuances and non-intuitive interactions, is critical.

Note that I am not suggesting that Magic would necessarily be a particularly great spectator sport in any general sense compared to football, etc., but it has potential as a niche thing more so than some "real" sports. I mean, seriously, Magic has to be at least as interesting to watch as golf.

I just assert that Vintage and Legacy are almost certainly the most effective formats for spectators. In particular, they have clear format defining staples that are easy to recognize (and change only slowly) over years, making it easier to follow for people who know the rules but don't keep up with every new printing, and the games themselves move faster with more flashy "power" plays and big swings than other formats, creating more excitement, drama, and tension, especially when paired with solid showmanship from enthusiastic commentators (I won't name names as exemplars or counterexamples, but you know what I'm talking about if you've seen much coverage).

[nedleeds]

Did you beat him while you suffered the effects of a concussion, or did you beat him with a concussion you doled out to him? Inquiring minds want to know.

I can't speak for what his weekend prior to our match consisted of. He was a polite opponent, the only thing I remember him saying was, "so much golem".

As for Blumke ... I found the tourney report I wrote on it from (drumroll) 1996

https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy/3186AM-CSes/WcQm6oi16CcJ

we drew in the swiss (he is swiss I believe) then I beat him the single elim after asking him to either 10 pile shuffle or desleeve. Every game prior to that he had gotten a turn 1 vise, turn 2 ivory tower (in highlander) ...

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/features/26a_justiceblumke.jpg

MERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Barook]

creating more excitement, drama, and tension, especially when paired with solid showmanship from enthusiastic commentators
I sure can't hold my excitement when S&T into Spagetti resolves and wins right on the spot, anything involving TNN in general or loop-sided matches in general.

Magic can be interesting to watch, but there are games in Eternal that isn't exactly great. The best stuff are close matches with lots of interaction.

[aahz]

"so much golem"
I hate that guy. Recently lost in elimination rounds to higher seeded --> T1 on the play Chalice@1, Golem, Metamorph Golem. I just helplessly stared at my 7 card hand with Bazaar and enough gas for a probable turn 2 kill if unmolested.

Maybe the concussion helped you at BOM. I think I'd be better playing shops without full mental faculties.

[nedleeds]

I hate that guy. Recently lost in elimination rounds to higher seeded --> T1 on the play Chalice@1, Golem, Metamorph Golem. I just helplessly stared at my 7 card hand with Bazaar and enough gas for a probable turn 2 kill if unmolested.

Maybe the concussion helped you at BOM. I think I'd be better playing shops without full mental faculties.

LOL. Dredge player seeks sympathy c'mon man how many people did you maul without even casting a spell :laugh:

Edit: I also snap read your reply as you hating Itou

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Note that I am not suggesting that Magic would necessarily be a particularly great spectator sport in any general sense compared to football, etc., but it has potential as a niche thing more so than some "real" sports. I mean, seriously, Magic has to be at least as interesting to watch as golf.

I don't think so. My wife may watch golf for hours and so do I, and we don't even play it. It has super easy rules - get the small ball into the hole - and contrary to MtG, you see what's happening even on a small screen. Also, needs very little stupid commentaries. And the golf players are not douchebags like many of the Magickers are. Also, there's no stigma of children's pictorial game. And golf may pay for your living.
Even the very basic Magic (some kind of reduced Portal) is complex enough to be completely uninteresting for 99,99 % of population. Look, even the Magic players don't care of particular formats, so how can anyone expect that a random people would be interested in watching band of ass-cracks drafting the painted slips of paper. When there is a TV in a pub and there's some sport in it, people at least ask "who's playing?" or "are those our guys?", but I cannot imagine my wife/father/neighbour seeing an MtG coverage and be like "wow, dude, tha's Magic overthere, let's take a look how they attack with gremlins, spin top and make storm 12". :really:

[aahz]

I sure can't hold my excitement when S&T into Spagetti resolves and wins right on the spot, anything involving TNN in general or loop-sided matches in general.

Magic can be interesting to watch, but there are games in Eternal that isn't exactly great. The best stuff are close matches with lots of interaction.
True. Just as sports coverage varies in quality and some games are boring and awful even for hardcore fans. But how awesome is it when a scenario like you're describing plays out, except the opponent on Goblins (or whatever) slams down Ashen Rider for the surprise win instead?

Okay, fine. I can't defend the current state of Legacy with a straight face. The format has stagnated into meh, hurp, and derp, which in turn rots away my desire to play Legacy. Again, I'm not saying Magic coverage is necessarily worth watching for anyone, just that IF one had to watch coverage (or was into that kind of thing), it seems obvious that Vintage and Legacy would be the best formats for spectating in many ways, particularly for viewers who might not regularly get to play the game. Active players might presumably be most interested in formats they actually play, but standard doesn't seem diverse enough most of the time, draft is generally too low-powered and slow, so Modern would clearly have a leg up there. However, it seems reasonable that players might actually be intrigued by the mystique of the older cards if they haven't been exposed to that before (or can't afford to get into Eternal formats themselves right then).


LOL. Dredge player seeks sympathy c'mon man how many people did you maul without even casting a spell :laugh:

Edit: I also snap read your reply as you hating Itou
Yeah, I almost edited that for clarity after rereading it later. Itou seems like a class act. Jace gives him protection from game and he doesn't afraid of anything, even Lodestone Golems.

However, I do not expect, nor seek any sympathy. It's Vintage, so broken shit happens and occasionally splashes on one's face. Sometimes you lose to shops, sometimes it's too hot out to play blue, sometimes zombies eat brains. So it goes.

And for the record, I cast plenty of spells, sometimes right into Chalice@1 for the lulz (and also zombies), and I never mauled anyone. That was mostly the work of Alpha Scathe Zombie "tokens" and the fact the opponents seem to scoop as soon as they realize they can't stop an impending Griselbrand, whose mere possibility ends up functioning mostly as an existential threat. To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd even do if I got Captains Hooks in play, probably punt or accidentally deck myself. :really:


I don't think so. My wife may watch golf for hours and so do I, and we don't even play it. It has super easy rules - get the small ball into the hole - and contrary to MtG, you see what's happening even on a small screen. Also, needs very little stupid commentaries. And the golf players are not douchebags like many of the Magickers are. Also, there's no stigma of children's pictorial game. And golf may pay for your living.
Even the very basic Magic (some kind of reduced Portal) is complex enough to be completely uninteresting for 99,99 % of population. Look, even the Magic players don't care of particular formats, so how can anyone expect that a random people would be interested in watching band of ass-cracks drafting the painted slips of paper. When there is a TV in a pub and there's some sport in it, people at least ask "who's playing?" or "are those our guys?", but I cannot imagine my wife/father/neighbour seeing an MtG coverage and be like "wow, dude, tha's Magic overthere, let's take a look how they attack with gremlins, spin top and make storm 12". :really:
That's just, like, your opinion, man. I loathe watching sports of any kind personally. I would rather run a mile in a Darth Vader suit at Badwater in August than watch golf in particular, but more power to you if that gets you off.

What does the fact that some people manage to golf for a living have to do with watching golf? Why would the money (or lack thereof) make it any different? And I'm sure folks who actually enjoy being golf spectators are a small minority of the population as well, so how is that any different than Magic in any meaningful way?

Interestingly, I happen to be involved in a long standing weekly Magic group that plays over beer in a pub. We regularly get all sorts of people coming over to talk to us and ask about Magic. The vibes are nearly 100% positive and I'm frequently surprised by the level of interest from people that one wouldn't expect. No stigma here (or ass cracks, for that matter). My impression from incidental exposure to media coverage is that a disturbingly large number of athletes (including golfers) seem to be degenerate sacks of human waste worthy of condemnation just bad as the Magic players you cite (though perhaps in different ways). Bad apples are present in all spheres, so your argument can be turned against <insert-thing-that-you-like> since some humans gonna scumbag and some of them also flock to <that-thing-you're-into>.

There is a reason I only play Vintage/Eternal: I end up mostly sitting across from reasonable, intelligent humans with diverse interests and decent manners, including lawyers, scientists, engineers, teachers, and various other responsible adults. But I suppose things may be different over there in your alternate reality with whatever magic pixie dust you're smoking.

[Barook]

Remember it's the Invitational this weekend, so the Legacy portion is going to start soon today and that we're getting some Legacy action tomorrow as well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

And they won't hook up my Internet until freaking TUESDAY. Anyone live in the Glenwood Springs/Rifle Colorado area? I need this, Dammit!

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Barook]

And they won't hook up my Internet until freaking TUESDAY. Anyone live in the Glenwood Springs/Rifle Colorado area? I need this, Dammit!
Just watch the archive later? :eyebrow:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's my streaming video and I want it now!

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Anen]

"It looks like Joe put 3 cards on top with Brainstorm".

Did they finally errated this card? xD

[Barook]

Bryant Cook vs Reid Duke (Miracles) currently on Stream!

Edit: And over, Bryant takes it down 2-0!

[Lemnear]

Bryant Cook vs Reid Duke (Miracles) currently on Stream!

Edit: And over, Bryant takes it down 2-0!

Interresting. Didn't watch it but want to do so once it's archived. Sometimes, I see Miracles lists which are totally streamlined towards creature-hate and hope that storm just concedes to like 4 FoW and 3-4 Counterbalance :/

Heared the match was over quick; possibly Reid's hate was just too slow. I would like to see his list for the event and hope his list wasn't build like the one above...

[ESG]

Interresting. Didn't watch it but want to do so once it's archived. Sometimes, I see Miracles lists which are totally streamlined towards creature-hate and hope that storm just concedes to like 4 FoW and 3-4 Counterbalance :/

Heared the match was over quick; possibly Reid's hate was just too slow. I would like to see his list for the event and hope his list wasn't build like the one above...

Bryant ghosted Reid on Turn 2 on the draw. Reid was aiming to set up CounterTop, but a basic Plains got in the way of that plan, and Bryant had an Abrupt Decay ready to go anyway. Reid didn't appear too happy with his hand and seemed to deliberate about whether to keep or mull again. I don't think I've ever seen Bryant lose a game when he has cast Ad Nauseam.

[Barook]

Is the Top 8 tomorrow Standard or Legacy this time?

[Julian23]

Unfortunately, it's going to be Standard.

[Megadeus]

Bryant ghosted Reid on Turn 2 on the draw. Reid was aiming to set up CounterTop, but a basic Plains got in the way of that plan, and Bryant had an Abrupt Decay ready to go anyway. Reid didn't appear too happy with his hand and seemed to deliberate about whether to keep or mull again. I don't think I've ever seen Bryant lose a game when he has cast Ad Nauseam.

Wait, storm decks winning after they resolve ad nauseam on turn 2? ;)

[Lemnear]

Wait, storm decks winning after they resolve ad nauseam on turn 2? ;)

Especially that subtype ;)

[Megadeus]

Eternal Weekend at Eternal Empire today. Legacy is today:

http://www.twitch.tv/atomicempire

[Sloshthedark]

Eternal Weekend at Eternal Empire today. Legacy is today:

http://www.twitch.tv/atomicempire

kind of miss the commentary =D... yea, I'm a masochist...

[Einherjer]

Turning into SCG live: Seeing Alex Bertoncini at 1st place, titled "players to watch". I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

Greetings

[JDK]

Well, SCG apparently doesn't want to ban cheating Players for too long...as long as they keep throwing money at them.

[Quasim0ff]

Well, SCG apparently doesn't want to ban cheating Players for too long...as long as they keep throwing money at them.

As much as I hate cheating scumbags, and cheating scumbags that got caught yet keeps cheating, he isn't banned currently, and served his 18 months sentence. However, the moron should be banned for life.

[JDK]

Uhm, I didn't say he is banned. :confused:
I'm also a proponent of lifetime bans, if someone gets caught blatantly cheating.

[Barook]

Uhm, I didn't say he is banned. :confused:
I'm also a proponent of lifetime bans, if someone gets caught blatantly cheating.
Add to that he keeps being a dick about it.

He's currently the point leader after 14 rounds, so it's highly likely that he makes it least to the Top 8.

[cdr]

Uhm, I didn't say he is banned. :confused:
I'm also a proponent of lifetime bans, if someone gets caught blatantly cheating.

Hey, there's Hall of Famers that got caught cheating... some of them even stopped.

Mike Long might have even made HoF if he had kissed up to MaRo a bit more.

[Bertrand Hustle]

Uhm, I didn't say he is banned. :confused:
I'm also a proponent of lifetime bans, if someone gets caught blatantly cheating.
Agreed. If Wizards is serious about the game growing/taken seriously in a competetive regard it needs to regulate shit much more like Poker and not be afraid to permaban people at the drop of a hat.

[Lord Seth]

Well, SCG apparently doesn't want to ban cheating Players for too long...as long as they keep throwing money at them.Wizards of the Coast was the one that banned him, not Star City Games. Though has SCG banned any players that WOTC hasn't actively banned? Do they have their own list in addition?

By the way, regarding Alex's length of banning: I find it a little troublesome that Wizards of the Coast thinks that repeatedly cheating is considered the same level of offense as taking unflattering pictures of people in a public location that does not reveal the identities of those pictured, considering Alex received the same punishment as the "asscrack guy."

[Barook]

Wizards of the Coast was the one that banned him, not Star City Games. Though has SCG banned any players that WOTC hasn't actively banned? Do they have their own list in addition?

By the way, regarding Alex's length of banning: I find it a little troublesome that Wizards of the Coast thinks that repeatedly cheating is considered the same level of offense as taking unflattering pictures of people in a public location that does not reveal the identities of those pictured, considering Alex received the same punishment as the "asscrack guy."
"Asscrack Guy" was bad for their business, since his photos gave outside people the impression that Magic is a game for fat, nerdy guys you can't even dress properly.

Alex deserved a lifetime ban for all the crap he pulled, not just 18 months. And the ban didn't change his attitude at all since he's still a prick and I wouldn't be suprised if he still cheats when he thinks that he can get away with it.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's just, like, your opinion, man. I loathe watching sports of any kind personally. I would rather run a mile in a Darth Vader suit at Badwater in August than watch golf in particular, but more power to you if that gets you off.
Wait, I'm not saying I watch sports. I watch golf, tennis or martial sports like two times per year. I don't even own a TV.



What does the fact that some people manage to golf for a living have to do with watching golf? Why would the money (or lack thereof) make it any different? And I'm sure folks who actually enjoy being golf spectators are a small minority of the population as well, so how is that any different than Magic in any meaningful way?
IDK, maybe it is similar as to why people watch SCG streams instead of some jungle-league homevideos.



Interestingly, I happen to be involved in a long standing weekly Magic group that plays over beer in a pub. We regularly get all sorts of people coming over to talk to us and ask about Magic. The vibes are nearly 100% positive and I'm frequently surprised by the level of interest from people that one wouldn't expect.
Interestingly, I happen to be involved in a long standing weekly Magic group that plays over beer in a pub. We regularly get nearly no one coming over to talk to us and ask about Magic; even if someone asks about the stuff, the vibes are nearly 100% positive until the whole "epic battle of two wizards" start.



No stigma here (or ass cracks, for that matter).
Neither here, but that's because mostly no randoms care about Magic.



My impression from incidental exposure to media coverage is that a disturbingly large number of athletes (including golfers) seem to be degenerate sacks of human waste worthy of condemnation just bad as the Magic players you cite (though perhaps in different ways). Bad apples are present in all spheres, so your argument can be turned against <insert-thing-that-you-like> since some humans gonna scumbag and some of them also flock to <that-thing-you're-into>.
Sry, I can't comment this, I don't follow TV, newspaper or any other kind of brainwashing and propaganda devices.



There is a reason I only play Vintage/Eternal: I end up mostly sitting across from reasonable, intelligent humans with diverse interests and decent manners, including lawyers, scientists, engineers, teachers, and various other responsible adults. But I suppose things may be different over there in your alternate reality with whatever magic pixie dust you're smoking.
Yeah, I know those lawyers, scientists, engineers, teachers, and various other responsible adults from the backyard of our lgs where they smoke water-pipes and contemplate over their dicks.

[Lord Seth]

"Asscrack Guy" was bad for their business, since his photos gave outside people the impression that Magic is a game for fat, nerdy guys you can't even dress properly.

Alex deserved a lifetime ban for all the crap he pulled, not just 18 months. And the ban didn't change his attitude at all since he's still a prick and I wouldn't be suprised if he still cheats when he thinks that he can get away with it.I'm not saying they shouldn't have given "asscrack guy" any punishment (personally I don't care either way, but I will say that if they're so concerned about it, maybe they should require people to pull their pants up; and for that matter, did he technically break any rules at the time, or was this ex post facto?), but I find it problematic that outright cheating is not considered a more severe crime than what he did.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm not saying they shouldn't have given "asscrack guy" any punishment (personally I don't care either way, but I will say that if they're so concerned about it, maybe they should require people to pull their pants up; and for that matter, did he technically break any rules at the time, or was this ex post facto?), but I find it problematic that outright cheating is not considered a more severe crime than what he did.
The trouble with ass-crack guy is that on top of interfering with WotC's desired image of MtG community, he directly humiliated many more people than Bertoncheaty did, moreover this pain will last as long as the internet will exist, cause the pictures are part of the shared space now. While I do not necessarily agree with the severity of his punishment, I still feel like WotC/DCI did a good job when they publicly declared that they won't tolerate abusive behaviour in the Magic scene; frankly, they should be also quite more strict about the things that led to the whole ass-crack affair.

[Dice_Box]

I personally feel like, the guy that took the photos did Wizards a service. I don't want to see that shit when I am playing. It was a great note. "Hay Wizards, not everyone wants to see an ass from behind their opponent. Fix this shit please."

Public service rendered, meet with slap to the face. Real mature mate. You still have a real issue to fix not just ignore...

[menace13]

he directly humiliated many more people than Bertoncheaty did.
I'm sorry but if you do not know how to pull your own pants up then you deserve to be humiliated.

[mini1337s]

Hopefully Alex's buttcrack hangs out if he wins the invitational again...

Honestly, I dislike Bertoncini as much as the next guy, but he served his ban and life goes on. Lots of high profile players have been banned throughout the history of the game; this isn't exclusive to Alex. He is a very skilled player, but unfortunately in the past he cheated to give him an edge in games. Guaranteed his opponents watch him like a hawk during rounds, but he is skilled enough to continue placing well in high profile events.

[Quasim0ff]

Hopefully Alex's buttcrack hangs out if he wins the invitational again...

Honestly, I dislike Bertoncini as much as the next guy, but he served his ban and life goes on. Lots of high profile players have been banned throughout the history of the game; this isn't exclusive to Alex. He is a very skilled player, but unfortunately in the past he cheated to give him an edge in games. Guaranteed his opponents watch him like a hawk during rounds, but he is skilled enough to continue placing well in high profile events.
The problem with Bertoncheaty is just that there has been continuos rumors of his cheating. That's the main problem.

Ie. Rumours of mulligan to 7s and draw 8s in the beginning.

[JDK]

Wizards of the Coast was the one that banned him, not Star City Games. Though has SCG banned any players that WOTC hasn't actively banned? Do they have their own list in addition?
Of course Wizards/DCI banned him in the first place, since they are the official authority in terms of sanctioned MTG. I didn't say anything else and also didn't imply such thing. Dunno why you felt the urge to tell me that.

If SCG would value integrity and player experience above the money of a few cheating dudes, they would have a more strict cheating policy and ban people from their events.
Just ask yourself these questions: Do you want to play against a known cheater? Do you trust this player and the company letting him play after repeatedly & knowingly violating the rules to gain an advantage?

[Dice_Box]

There are two people I know that are banned from my LGS, one for being an ass, the other for shady trading. They are banned from all events and entry to the store. There is not reason that SCG could not do the same. After all they are a private business, they answer to themselves first.

But I think it's a dangerous path to take. If you do that, you have to then decide how long they will be banned for, is it just for events or is it all of SCG? What kind of appeals can be made, what needs to be done to put someone on such a list? What checks are in place? It is far simpler to lean on the already established DCI to do this and just let people do as they will. While I would be happy to see cheaters handed out strict punishments, I do not know if it is right to start compounding punishments from multiple establishments.

[mini1337s]

The problem with Bertoncheaty is just that there has been continuos rumors of his cheating. That's the main problem.

Ie. Rumours of mulligan to 7s and draw 8s in the beginning.
Rumors are unsubstantiated though. If someone is playing against Alex and Alex mulls to 7, and they DON'T call a judge, not only are they an idiot, but they are doing the rest of the Magic community a disservice.
In my experience, Magic players love drama so it doesn't surprise me that there are rumors of Alex continuing to cheat.

[GreenShorty]

The problem with Bertoncheaty is just that there has been continuos rumors of his cheating. That's the main problem.

Ie. Rumours of mulligan to 7s and draw 8s in the beginning.

Until proven, rumours should not be taken seriously. He served his time, and that's it. People shouldn't be punished for their entire life, as the sentence (18 month ban) is not supposed to only punish, but also to influence people (including him) towards not repeting their infractions. I believe the general perception about him (he became a pariah) is enough of a punishment already (if he isn't cheating anymore, of course).

[Jon]

I had my reservations about him but he is a damn good magic player and he served his time. He keeps winning regardless of all the hate for him.

[Lord Seth]

The trouble with ass-crack guy is that on top of interfering with WotC's desired image of MtG community, he directly humiliated many more people than Bertoncheaty did, moreover this pain will last as long as the internet will exist, cause the pictures are part of the shared space now. While I do not necessarily agree with the severity of his punishment, I still feel like WotC/DCI did a good job when they publicly declared that they won't tolerate abusive behaviour in the Magic scene; frankly, they should be also quite more strict about the things that led to the whole ass-crack affair.First, "asscrack guy" didn't humiliate anyone, because all of the pictures were anonymous.

Second, Bertoncini didn't humiliate people, he basically stole from them. That seems a more serious crime.

If WOTC wants to give the guy who took the pictures a serious punishment, fine, but they should give a more serious punishment to what's a more serious crime. That's my problem.


Until proven, rumours should not be taken seriously. He served his time, and that's it. People shouldn't be punished for their entire life, as the sentence (18 month ban) is not supposed to only punish, but also to influence people (including him) towards not repeting their infractions. I believe the general perception about him (he became a pariah) is enough of a punishment already (if he isn't cheating anymore, of course).If I recall correctly, him drawing 8 cards instead of 7 (and denying it twice before he was told to put the cards on the table to verify) at a Grand Prix (post-unbanning), was not a rumor, but verified fact. The reason he only got a warning, according to the judge, was that he wasn't told about Alex denying it twice.

[Barook]

I'm glad Alex lost.

But I'm really tempted to try out Tom Ross' Slight list. If you don't use the single Mutavault in the board, it's like 15 tix to put together on MODO.

[Darkenslight]

I'm glad Alex lost.

But I'm really tempted to try out Tom Ross' Slight list. If you don't use the single Mutavault in the board, it's like 15 tix to put together on MODO.

Yeah, good gods, that deck is FAST. Just watching the T3 scoop in game 3 against Ben.

[thecrav]

kinda sad that they're showing the invi top 8 again instead of legacy :/

[TheArchitect]

I'm glad Alex lost.

But I'm really tempted to try out Tom Ross' Slight list. If you don't use the single Mutavault in the board, it's like 15 tix to put together on MODO.

The last time I played standard I was casting Basking Rootwallas for free, but Ross's deck actually makes me want to get into standard. Its probably the closest thing in standard to a combo deck, an "extreme deck" as he calls it. It sort of breaks the normal rules of standard these days where you have to run 25 lands and a pile of the best rare/mythic 4+ CMC creatures. Also, seems really good when Thoughtseize is probably the most powerful standard legal spell. Also, being able to build the entire deck for 30$ and a mutavault is a definite plus.

[Megadeus]

kinda sad that they're showing the invi top 8 again instead of legacy :/

It kinda pissed me off when they said they were holding up the Bertoncini match so they could show us both matches in the Semis. Like, no one cares!

[Parcher]

The last time I played standard I was casting Basking Rootwallas for free, but Ross's deck actually makes me want to get into standard. Its probably the closest thing in standard to a combo deck, an "extreme deck" as he calls it. It sort of breaks the normal rules of standard these days where you have to run 25 lands and a pile of the best rare/mythic 4+ CMC creatures. Also, seems really good when Thoughtseize is probably the most powerful standard legal spell. Also, being able to build the entire deck for 30$ and a mutavault is a definite plus.

You forgot that if people specifically aim for it, any deck can easily SB to beat it if they are willing to lose percentage points elsewhere.

I like to think of it as the Dredge of Standard.

[Barook]

kinda sad that they're showing the invi top 8 again instead of legacy :/
I think it's understandable, considering the lenghth of the coverage, even if it sucks.

You can't expect them to work that long without a break and put up a reasonable coverage, especially a third day in a row.

Edit: Coverage is back up.

[TheAardvark]

It kinda pissed me off when they said they were holding up the Bertoncini match so they could show us both matches in the Semis. Like, no one cares!

Except there are people who do care; you are clearly not the target audience.

I am surprised they did that only because since Bertoncini's return they have done everything they could to not feature him on camera, so holding his match up in order to feature him is definitely a bit of a reversal.

[Megadeus]

Sure, but holding up the tourney is unprecedented as far as I know.

[Dice_Box]

Playing to the crowd. People want to see him lose.

[Jon]

Thats not true, They want to show the whole Top8 in its entirety for all the people who follow these things. None of us care right now but you wouldnt bitch if it was Legacy Top 8 this time...

[TheAardvark]

Thats not true, They want to show the whole Top8 in its entirety for all the people who follow these things. None of us care right now but you wouldnt bitch if it was Legacy Top 8 this time...

Oh, you sweet Summer child...

[TheArchitect]

Ew 6 delver decks in the top 8, 10 in the top 16 and only 2 non-blue decks in the top 16.

[Barook]

Ew 6 delver decks in the top 8, 10 in the top 16 and only 2 non-blue decks in the top 16.
I was just about to mention it. Format diversity, gentleman.

The funny part? Several of the Invitational Top 8 players called Delver the most overrated card of the format. :really:

[Megadeus]

Ew 6 delver decks in the top 8, 10 in the top 16 and only 2 non-blue decks in the top 16.

Actually only 1 non-blue deck

[Lord Seth]

Actually only 1 non-blue deckConsidering that deck is Death & Taxes, it probably has the best chance of winning the whole thing.

This Top 8 looks like a dream metagame for Death & Taxes.

[nedleeds]

Pretty sure a perfect 16/16 * 4 wouldn't get brainstorm banned. Its so obviously overpowered with repectnto the banned list its laughable. Please unban some stuff.

[Barook]

Actually only 1 non-blue deck
Right.


Considering that deck is Death & Taxes, it probably has the best chance of winning the whole thing.

This Top 8 looks like a dream metagame for Death & Taxes.
I don't know about that, RUG can just have one of those draws, plus it's on the play which is a huge advantage for the Delver player.

[Megadeus]

15 blue decks and a deck built to beat blue decks.

[Barook]

How many players did Providence have last week? It was way more diverse than the crap we got this week.

As I see it, the more rounds a tournament has, the better are blue decks going to do due to higher consistency thanks to cantrips.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah. Something should change. Would things be better if Delver got the banhammer?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

Ban BS and Delver wouldnt be as consistent

[HammafistRoob]

Providence had 304, how many were there for this one?

[Megadeus]

450~

[Barook]

It's nice to see the SCG coverage taking D&T more seriously after belittling it for such a long time, but did they just really say that Jason made a mistake for playing that SFM AFTER wasting the only Island because he didn't play around Daze? :eyebrow:

[Tyrio]

That's the exact opposite of what Sullivan said.

[Lord Seth]

It's nice to see the SCG coverage taking D&T more seriously after belittling it for such a long time, but did they just really say that Jason made a mistake for playing that SFM AFTER wasting the only Island because he didn't play around Daze? :eyebrow:If I recall correctly, he said something like "I thought it was a mistake to cast the Stoneforge Mystic without the extra mana from Wasteland for Daze, but then realized that he took out the only Island in doing so." He never actually said it was a mistake, just that he thought that at first, then realized it was the right play.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@ Megadeus: Stop that. Delver is allowing 3 different 3-color decks to obliterate the format every other weekend or so. Quit whining about Brainstorm for a moment and discuss alternatives. We get that you have a hate of brainstorm that isn't unsubstantiated, but pause and reflect on what else there might be.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

@ Megadeus: Stop that. Delver is allowing 3 different 3-color decks to obliterate the format every other weekend or so. Quit whining about Brainstorm for a moment and discuss alternatives. We get that you have a hate of brainstorm that isn't unsubstantiated, but pause and reflect on what else there might be.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Honestly can't tell if sarcasm or not.

[ahg113]

If Delver and TNN (not a fan of V. Clique having 3 power, but ok, 1 toughness) are removed from Blue, Brainstorm isn't as offensive. So, sarcasm or not, something should be removed from the situation.

And on a tangent... I'm impressed with Brian B-D's transformation U/W deck. It's not full of the durdle.

[HammafistRoob]

His deck is bad and he should feel bad.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I get the impression that Modern is more diverse these days than Legacy (but I hardly know anything about Modern except looking at a few top 8-lists from time to time, I almost exclusively play legacy). I don't think Wizards will ever ban Brainstorm, that card is the posterchild of legacy. Nor do I think they will ban True-Name Nemesis. I also think it's unlikely that they will ban Delver of Secrets.

SCG Invitationals are nearly never interesting as far diversity is concerned.

[mort-]

Ears bleeding after hearing the semifinals and finals. Seriously, ranting on about "he has to find lands in his Sylvan Library" after he just used double Daze and had four lands on the table. Just as the icing on the cake.

Also, BBD got punished for a pretty bad hand there g3 :/

[Darkenslight]

I get the impression that Modern is more diverse these days than Legacy (but I hardly know anything about Modern except looking at a few top 8-lists from time to time, I almost exclusively play legacy). I don't think Wizards will ever ban Brainstorm, that card is the posterchild of legacy. Nor do I think they will ban True-Name Nemesis. I also think it's unlikely that they will ban Delver of Secrets.

SCG Invitationals are nearly never interesting as far diversity is concerned.

I don't know, The Boss Tom Ross always plays Infect and hyper-aggressive strategies that approach combo. And they're always fun to watch, as Inkmoth > Delver.

But yes, I think it's time that something from the Delver lists was banned. TNN isn't the problem, but it's a problem.

[Dice_Box]

They said Cook was playing ANT. I think that more or less says it all.

[Megadeus]

Ears bleeding after hearing the semifinals and finals. Seriously, ranting on about "he has to find lands in his Sylvan Library" after he just used double Daze and had four lands on the table. Just as the icing on the cake.

Also, BBD got punished for a pretty bad hand there g3 :/
This. I was like, you just saw him double daze and you are saying he needs to find lands? Also the game where BBD SFM for batterskull, then it gets hymn'd, and one of the announcers just isn't paying attention and keeps going on about how he has 2 batterskulls at the ready

[nedleeds]

SMH @ Delver vs. TNN. Delver is so much more oppressive than TNN, it's not close. Seriously, they have to unban something with M14 ... this is gone from absurd to plaid. We almost had a perfect 64/64 in a well attended legacy premier event.

[mort-]

This. I was like, you just saw him double daze and you are saying he needs to find lands? Also the game where BBD SFM for batterskull, then it gets hymn'd, and one of the announcers just isn't paying attention and keeps going on about how he has 2 batterskulls at the ready

That's the second major point I was going to rant about. All in all, it was annoying as hell this time.

[Tyrio]

To be fair, it was late into the third day of commentary/casting and BBD drew/brainstormed into a 2nd SFM to find his 2nd Batterskull. It does seem like the commentators forgot everything about the game whenever they turn away or something though.

I wonder if the table judge (because he doesn't do much else other than talk to the stream runner about life totals anyway) and one other person could instant message the stream runner about hand contents. It would require another SCG person for the camera matches and a LOT more work from the stream runner though.

[Lord Seth]

If someone is going to argue that 6/8 of the decks having Delver means Delver should be banned, it seems that the fact 1/8 of the Invitational Top 8 decks were Delver decks means Delver should not be banned. If you reject the Invitational because half of what decided that Top 8 was Standard, then note that 2/8 of the decks in the preceding Open played Delver.

If you're claiming it means something needs to be banned, at least be logical and point the blame towards Brainstorm, which was in 7/8 of the decks, 8/8 of the Invitational Top 8, and 5/8 of the previous Open. Not to mention that banning Brainstorm hits Delver anyway.

[Barook]

If someone is going to argue that 6/8 of the decks having Delver means Delver should be banned, it seems that the fact 1/8 of the Invitational Top 8 decks were Delver decks means Delver should not be banned. If you reject the Invitational because half of what decided that Top 8 was Standard, then note that 2/8 of the decks in the preceding Open played Delver.

If you're claiming it means something needs to be banned, at least be logical and point the blame towards Brainstorm, which was in 7/8 of the decks, 8/8 of the Invitational Top 8, and 5/8 of the previous Open. Not to mention that banning Brainstorm hits Delver anyway.
I would argue with the 7-1 or better (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/2674_legacy_71_or_better_decklists.html) list instead - 2/8 Delver decks, but again, 7/8 Brainstorm decks.

It's absurd.

[nedleeds]

Didn't the table judge allow a morph to be countered by a counterbalance flip of 3? Go REL competitive.

[whienot]

Didn't the table judge allow a morph to be countered by a counterbalance flip of 3? Go REL competitive.

Yup.

Rd 15: Riley Curran v Brian Braun-Duin (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/538117034?t=28h00m00s)

[Megadeus]

If someone is going to argue that 6/8 of the decks having Delver means Delver should be banned, it seems that the fact 1/8 of the Invitational Top 8 decks were Delver decks means Delver should not be banned. If you reject the Invitational because half of what decided that Top 8 was Standard, then note that 2/8 of the decks in the preceding Open played Delver.

If you're claiming it means something needs to be banned, at least be logical and point the blame towards Brainstorm, which was in 7/8 of the decks, 8/8 of the Invitational Top 8, and 5/8 of the previous Open. Not to mention that banning Brainstorm hits Delver anyway.

The Invitational is different since standard is taken into account on the top 8. So Invitational results aren't completely accurate. They could have gone 5-3 in Legacy with their deck and still made top 8.

I think the big thing here is that at least times a month we see 14/16 or so Blue penetration. That is the norm. People will say, "Well at this SCG only half the top 16 was blue". Sure that happens, but that is not generally the norm. In a format where there is a very successful deck that main boards 4-6 Red Blasts, I'm not sure how you can even argue that blue may possibly not be a bit out of hand.

[nedleeds]

Yup.

Rd 15: Riley Curran v Brian Braun-Duin (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/538117034?t=28h00m00s)

So if the counterbalance player allows the morph to be countered and knows it shouldn't its cheating.

[TheAardvark]

So if the counterbalance player allows the morph to be countered and knows it shouldn't its cheating.

It's also plausible that the Counterbalance player doesn't know that; the morph reminder text doesn't state the mana cost being 0, and if it isn't something that has come up in their testing before, it is definitely missable.

[nedleeds]

Well it should be a GRV otherwise we'll never know if they are cheating. I would think a semi pro like BVD would know basic stuff like converted mana costs especially since he's playing the card "Counterbalance". I'd err to the side of cheating rather than 'doesn't know the rules of magic' for somebody who basically does Magic for a living. He probably figures, worst case they correct me, best case I roll his morph.

[H]

I don't remember if it was BBD or Brad Nelson who lost to Tom Ross because they thought a Humility would shut down an Inkmoth Nexus.

I think we give them too much credit on how much they actually know, rules wise.

[nedleeds]

I think people mostly feign ignorance, cheat and take advantage of the fact that most people don't call a judge and push for a GRV.

[sdematt]

I think people mostly feign ignorance, cheat and take advantage of the fact that most people don't call a judge and push for a GRV.

I know for sure Legacy players call judges less often than they should.

-Matt

[TheAardvark]

That is a possibility. I just think that players not knowing specific interactions that they aren't familiar with is every bit as plausible.

[Arsenal]

Humility vs. Inkmoth Nexus seems fairly corner case and rare, as does Counterbalance vs. Morph spell. I doubt many players, even "pros", know the interactions inside and out.

[thecrav]

I know for sure magic players call judges less often than they should.

-Matt

ftfy



Humility vs. Inkmoth Nexus seems fairly corner case and rare, as does Counterbalance vs. Morph spell. I doubt many players, even "pros", know the interactions inside and out.

I don't expect the opponent to know, but if you're playing these cards with weird rules interactions, then you need to learn them. Layers really aren't that hard. There's only seven (with 5 subs that come up even less frequently). Memorize them and apply them in order. I'd imagine most of us could rattle off the oracle text of 100+ legacy-legal cards, but a humility player can't remember these 7/12 things that apply every single time he casts this card!?

[Arsenal]

I played CounterTop for years and I didn't know about the Morph thing, nor did I ever think to myself "man, I really need to learn about how Morph interacts with Counterbalance".

It's also plausible that he believed that Humility vs. Inkmoth worked the same way Melira vs. Inkmoth works, which it doesn't, but I can definitely see how one could think it does.

[danyul]

I'm gonna step up and say that I knew about the Morph thing. But Birchlore Rangers might be the only relevant Morph card played in Legacy right now and it rarely gets played as a Morph. So I'm not surprised that nobody really knows the exact way Morph works.

Also, I'm not so confident in my Morph knowledge that I would appeal the ruling of a table judge. People are used to X spells having variable CMCs on the stack so I assume that played a factor in some of the confusion as well.

[Tyrio]

It's also plausible that he believed that Humility vs. Inkmoth worked the same way Melira vs. Inkmoth works, which it doesn't, but I can definitely see how one could think it does.

It does work the same way as Melira. Activating Inkmoth with an opponent's Melira on the field will still yield a 1/1 flying artifact creature with Infect. It just won't do anything because Melira prevents your opponent from getting poison counters or their creatures from getting -1/-1 counters.

[Arsenal]

It does work the same way as Melira.

Humility vs. Inkmoth does not work the same way as Melira vs. Inkmoth, although they're very similar. Under Humility, Inkmoth would have flying, would have Infect, but would deal regular damage; this is very different from Melira as Inkmoth would be a 1/1 flying, Infect dude, but doesn't do anything as Melira prevents poison to player and -1/-1 to creatures.

[nedleeds]

It does work the same way as Melira. Activating Inkmoth with an opponent's Melira on the field will still yield a 1/1 flying artifact creature with Infect. It just won't do anything because Melira prevents your opponent from getting poison counters or their creatures from getting -1/-1 counters.

Aren't Humility and Inkmoth's ability-giving effect both in layer 6, and thus applied in timestamp order?

Edit: Thus flying and infect.

[Tyrio]

Humility vs. Inkmoth does not work the same way as Melira vs. Inkmoth, although they're very similar. Under Humility, Inkmoth would have flying, would have Infect, but would deal regular damage; this is very different from Melira as Inkmoth would be a 1/1 flying, Infect dude, but doesn't do anything as Melira prevents poison to player and -1/-1 to creatures.

I mean they're similar in that both Humility and Melira operate on the same layer i.e. activating Inkmoth under either effect will still yield a flying Infect moth. It's just that a Humble Inkmoth will still deal poison counters while one cowed by Melira won't.

[Arsenal]

Sure, but that's my point in that they're very similar, so it's plausible that one could think Humility vs. Inkmoth will have the same end result as Melira vs. Inkmoth when they actually wouldn't. Again, it's completely plausible and believable that a player, even a "pro", doesn't fully grasp the interaction of Counterbalance vs. Morph or Humility vs. Inkmoth, or it could be that they think they do understand the interaction based on a previous, related experience (Melira vs. Inkmoth), when they're ultimately wrong.

[Megadeus]

If you get into a situation where you are unsure of the rules or something, call a judge. When I saw that CB Morph thing on the stream, I assumed it would need to be a 0 on top to counter it, but I wasn't sure. However I probably would have called a judge. I always do if I have any doubts. Like when my opponent was playing Painter Stone and I had a RIP. Or especially a Humility case since that card is a headache.

[Arsenal]

True. Definitely call a judge if you're unsure. But if you are sure that you're right (even though you're wrong and don't know it yet), why would you? It's very possible that BBD sided in Humility vs. Ross and thought "I'm 100% that this will work the way I want it to". We all know that it doesn't, but if that's the thought process, then calling a judge probably isn't something that you'd even think of doing.

[Megadeus]

True. Definitely call a judge if you're unsure. But if you are sure that you're right (even though you're wrong and don't know it yet), why would you? It's very possible that BBD sided in Humility vs. Ross and thought "I'm 100% that this will work the way I want it to". We all know that it doesn't, but if that's the thought process, then calling a judge probably isn't something that you'd even think of doing.

I didnt see the match, but did he lose because it didnt work like he wanted? I'm more thinking of the CB play. Also, what do the table judges even do? Like I know they are "spotters" or whatever, but they are still judges after all. They seem to miss A LOT.

[danyul]

I saw the match and Ross wasn't in a great spot even before the Morph was countered by CB. It's not clear that the 2/2 would have won him the game at all. But from what I can remember, there was a slight bit of confusion and the table judge eventually said that Morphs are CMC 3 on the stack. This was later corrected by someone on Twitter, but it was way too late to backup the gamestate. I can't quite remember. I'm trying to find the footage now. Does anybody remember if this was from the Invitational Swiss rounds on Saturday or from the Open on Sunday?

EDIT - Somebody linked it already. And it was Riley Curran, not Ross Merriam. My badz. There was no judge intervention. The players just did their thang.



Rd 15: Riley Curran v Brian Braun-Duin (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/538117034?t=28h00m00s)

[Megadeus]

It was in the Open I believe. Was like round 7-9ish.

[nedleeds]

The bald guy is at 6 and elf man has an arbor. It would be a good idea to at least try it and see if elf man fell for it if you were the cheating sort. I don't know any of these people thus I err on the side of cheating because money is involved. Note that revealing a 3 isn't cheating but allowing the morph to be countered and put in a graveyard for no reason is a GRV, and if intent could be proven then cheating. Like if earlier in the day the same player had a judge come explain the cmc of morph on the stack and said player was present a judge could make a case for cheating.

[Julian23]

This was later corrected by someone on Twitter

After all we've been through, I'm no more than "someone on Twitter" to you...? :eek::eek:

[danyul]

LOL I didn't see that was you. Also, I think the last 2-3 posts I've made in this thread have been horribly misinformed or written without paying close enough attention to the preceding posts. I'm just gonna go back to lurking for awhile.

[thecrav]

Also, what do the table judges even do? Like I know they are "spotters" or whatever, but they are still judges after all. They seem to miss A LOT.

I believe the commentators have even mentioned this before. The judges do chime in when they notice something, but generally they're doing spotting type duties. Additionally, having a judge at the table reduces the delay to an already-delayed game if a judge is required.

[Michael Keller]

I just feel bad for people that get put on camera to play. It has to be so disconcerting to know thousands of people are watching you're every move, down to the very way you draw cards. Every mistake gets magnified, as well.

It just seems sad people look to dissect things like that because of past-precedent on-camera shenanigans. I mean how stupid do you really have to be to cheat with thousands of watchful eyes on you?

I miss simpler times.

[JDK]

I just feel bad for people that get put on camera to play. It has to be so disconcerting to know thousands of people are watching you're every move, down to the very way you draw cards. Every mistake gets magnified, as well.

It just seems sad people look to dissect things like that because of past-precedent on-camera shenanigans. I mean how stupid do you really have to be to cheat with thousands of watchful eyes on you?

I miss simpler times.
Bertoncini would like to have a word with you.

[goblinsplayer]

I just feel bad for people that get put on camera to play. It has to be so disconcerting to know thousands of people are watching you're every move, down to the very way you draw cards. Every mistake gets magnified, as well.

It just seems sad people look to dissect things like that because of past-precedent on-camera shenanigans. I mean how stupid do you really have to be to cheat with thousands of watchful eyes on you?

I miss simpler times.

I can agree here. I was put on camera for a brief time, and I was actually very nervous because I did not want to humiliate myself by making a mistake. I think I might actually have misplayed that game due to being on camera.

[Michael Keller]

Bertoncini would like to have a word with you.

I'm busy, it'll have to wait.

[Esper3k]

I just feel bad for people that get put on camera to play. It has to be so disconcerting to know thousands of people are watching you're every move, down to the very way you draw cards. Every mistake gets magnified, as well.

It just seems sad people look to dissect things like that because of past-precedent on-camera shenanigans. I mean how stupid do you really have to be to cheat with thousands of watchful eyes on you?

I miss simpler times.

Hah seriously. My local group even made a joke about starting to stream Legacy at the store to make me practice playing on camera since I play so poorly when I'm on...

[TheArchitect]

I just feel bad for people that get put on camera to play. It has to be so disconcerting to know thousands of people are watching you're every move, down to the very way you draw cards. Every mistake gets magnified, as well.

It just seems sad people look to dissect things like that because of past-precedent on-camera shenanigans. I mean how stupid do you really have to be to cheat with thousands of watchful eyes on you?

I miss simpler times.

I was actually thinking about it the other day in another context. Ok so, SCG is super bias when it comes to who they put on camera. We all know this. They put on their content writers and/or familiar names first whenever possible. Now they are sometimes matchups of familiar name vs familiar name. Those are fine. But most of the time it is an SCG favorite vs average Joe. The content writers better be used to the streams by now but the average Joe is likely to be nervous. He will probably play worse because hes on camera, giving an unfair advantage to the SCG favorite. Now if they just selected random matchups to feature this would be not be an issue, but they don't. There is an intentional selection bias.

TL;DR: Is it fair that SCG hand picks their favorites to feature against possibly nervous/intimidated "nobody" players?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I can' imagine myself playing worse just because of some cameras. But that's maybe because I cannot play even worse than usual, and also becasue I'm used to the cameras and public performances.