[SCD] Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast

[DragoFireheart]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=217&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=159243&type=card

Tournament report of a UW Miracle deck main decking one of each: http://www.eternalcentral.com/grand-prix-paris-finalist-report-with-uwr-miracles/

Is it really such a gamble to have these in the main deck? The reasoning of the article is as follows:


My will to play REB in the main deck comes from the fact that Legacy is disproportionately blue, sometimes with as much as 70% of a given tournament. It bored me to side in the same cards for each match, so I chose to play them in the main deck instead. This choice was supported by the following facts:
- Spell Pierce counts for almost nothing against non-Blue decks, or these decks are just a near-bye for Miracles anyway.
- Delver is the most aggressive creature in the format, and REB can either counter it or destroy it once it’s in play.
- True-Name Nemesis is hard to remove (outside of Terminus), and is becoming more and more played. REB counters it for 1 mana.

Consider the following blue cards that REB/Pyro can hit:

True-Name Nemesis
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique

Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Show and Tell
Force of Will
Counterspell
Spell Pierce
Brainstorm
Stifle

Counterbalance




Would you consider running either in your maindeck after seeing it done in a Grand Prix?

[exallium]

I would in Miracles, given that we're on 4 brainstorm and 4 top, it's an easy card to NOT have to have in hand if we don't want to.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

At this point REB is pretty clearly less conditional than Swords to Plowshares.

[gregtron]

I was really happy to see it in his main deck, for all the same reasons he listed. Decks have dead cards against certain matches all the time, but you still don't see people relegating Swords to Plowshares to sideboards because it's still something you'll probably want in game 1. The same is true for Chalice-on-turn-1 decks like MUD or some versions of Loam; Chalice at 1 beats so many decks that can give you problems that it's worth running even though it might be dead in your hand from time-to-time.

It's good food for thought, at any rate. If you're constantly boarding a card in or out, you should rethink the logic behind where or if it exists in your 75.

[twndomn]

those 2 cards were printed long time ago, recently people started to MD it. What gives? Meta-game of course, it's only becoming trendy recently. If they were MD staples, then Painter should be a lot more popular from long time ago, since that's the few decks MD the cards would make sense.

[Dzra]

It's certainly not for everyone's meta, but if you are planning on attending a big tournament where a lot of Blue will likely be present at the top tables then it seems like a fair call at the very least.

[btm10]

The "eight blast plan" was briefly a thing in Vintage about ten years ago. It's perfectly reasonable to do if you expect it to be better than Spell Pierce.

[thecrav]

I've been playing it in miracles and it's been good so far. However, keeping a 6 card hand with REB against what turns out to be Elves feels real bad :/

[civet five]

I've been playing it in miracles and it's been good so far. However, keeping a 6 card hand with REB against what turns out to be Elves feels real bad :/

But it couldn't feel any worse than keeping a 6 card hand with Swords against what turns out to be OmniTell, right?

[Final Fortune]

Depends on what its replacing and whether or not the deck is objectively powerful enough to beat non U decks with its strategy regardless of dead cards, in Miracles it's a good idea because it steam rolls aggro, in RUG it's a bad idea because it doesn't steam roll aggro.

I'd give it a shot in combo tho', something like Show&Tell or Reanimator is just getting a better counter spell MD and getting counters or removal for Delver of Secrets, Vendilion Clique and True Name Nemesis over Spell Pierce.

I agree right now it seems less conditional than Swords to Plowshares or Spell Snare post Delver of Secrets and True Name Nemesis.

[DragoFireheart]

Depends on what its replacing and whether or not

Spell Pierce in this case.

[wcm8]

Seems like RUG could also get away with running one or two in the maindeck for the same reasons, again taking Spell Pierce slots. Brainstorm.dec *is* Legacy, so it's less of a gamble than running, say, Krosan Grip in the main.

[DragoFireheart]

Seems like RUG could also get away with running one or two in the maindeck for the same reasons, again taking Spell Pierce slots. Brainstorm.dec *is* Legacy, so it's less of a gamble than running, say, Krosan Grip in the main.

Spell Pierce is less bad in RUG, but it's annoying when people play around it.

There's no playing around REB/Pyro and it can hit stuff on the battlefield.

[Megadeus]

Honestly MD Krosan Grip seems alright. It doesn't hit anything from RUG, and BUG unless they play sylvan library, otherwise most decks have good targets

[wcm8]

Honestly MD Krosan Grip seems alright. It doesn't hit anything from RUG, and BUG unless they play sylvan library, otherwise most decks have good targets

For removal to be worth playing in Legacy, it needs to be both cheap and versatile. Bolt doubles as a clock and can also deal with Planeswalkers. Decay hits just about any non-land permanent. StP is simply the best 1 mana creature removal in the game. Liliana can steal games and her +1 is generally a one-sided effect.

Krosan Grip costs 3 and only hits a small sub-section of permanents. It's a good sideboard card, but lacks the cheapness/versatility of alternative options. I don't think the format is narrow enough to ever consider it in the maindeck. I think a green deck would rather run Maelstrom Pulse or Beast Within before even considering MD Grip.

[Final Fortune]

For removal to be worth playing in Legacy, it needs to be both cheap and versatile. Bolt doubles as a clock and can also deal with Planeswalkers. Decay hits just about any non-land permanent. StP is simply the best 1 mana creature removal in the game. Liliana can steal games and her +1 is generally a one-sided effect.

Krosan Grip costs 3 and only hits a small sub-section of permanents. It's a good sideboard card, but lacks the cheapness/versatility of alternative options. I don't think the format is narrow enough to ever consider it in the maindeck. I think a green deck would rather run Maelstrom Pulse or Beast Within before even considering MD Grip.

It also depends on numbers, 4 Swords to Plowshares is a serious commitment to removal but 1 Krosan Grip is not, it's more like hedging in a deck with Brainstorm and Ponder and a single Red Elemental Blast or Krosan Grip isn't going to make a big difference.

I think where the question becomes interesting is in a deck like Patriot, does Patriot want to drop Swords to Plowshares for Red Elemental Blast when the formats best creatures are blue and Swords to Plowshares can't even remove, let alone counter True Name Nemesis?

If I were playing white and red I'd stronly consider Red Elemental Blast over Swords to Plowshares, because post Delver of Secrets and True Name Nemesis it may be the less conditional spell in the format. I'm sure I'd regret it as soon as I saw Jund, Junk or Elves but Jund has to ask itself the same question and more MD Red Elemental Blasts means more SB Rough/Tumble for Elves.

I think subbing out Spell Pierce fo Red Elemental Blast makes less sense than Swords to Plowshares, it's one sub-set of cards, blue, vs another sub-set of cards, creatures, compared to everything but creatures.

I mean in a metagame where RUG has fallen from its thrown, this seems like a legitimate question when we ask ourselves why that is.

[mote5]

At the most recent SCG Baltimore, I played 3 Plowshares and 3 Spell Pierces alongside a MD Pyroblast and Engineered Explosives. I played against 6 blue decks, but never got to surprise anyone with it. I saw it three of the six game 1's against the blue decks, but never needed to play it.

For the reasons stated in a comment above (TNN, Clique, blue saturation at SCG's), I really like one or two MD. Also, it doesn't just counter TNN, it also lets you land your own while people still have their FoW's in against you. I'm considering running UWR Standstill next Open, and I think I'll at least try and fit a couple blasts MD. Plus, Brainstorm is very good at minimizing dead cards.

[Zupponn]

I believe that Imperial Painter was developed on the theory that the 8 blasts would be relevant vs most of the field.

[Dice_Box]

Painter only runs 6 blasts. (With the option to side more.)

[Zupponn]

Painter only runs 6 blasts. (With the option to side more.)

Yes, now. Original lists had 8.

[Dice_Box]

I have run 8 over my 75 before, I run 7 now but 8 always seamed too much. Will admit, now is tempting to go back.