Ban True-Name-Nemesis?

[jtos84]

I have heard quite a few complaints about TNN in the last few months. I had taken a short break before it was printed, and I have been playing combo since I have been back. I did not initially understand the complaints, so I tested a few decks out. TNN basically undermines the format. The card basically eliminates the characteristics a creature should have. It like an every turn lightning bolt that you can equip a jitte to, and there is almost nothing the opp can do.

I do not want to be disrespectful, but I cannot believe the DCI has let this card stay in the format as long as it has. I was under the impression that many of the cards on the banned list create game states that are counterproductive to advancing the format as well creating unpleasant play experiences. It seems as though at this point it would be beneficial to unban balance. I do not even play creature decks for the most part, however I occasionally do. The few games I have played with and against this card were painful. I can only imagine how hard this is to put up with tournament after tournament.

TNN is easily a vintage level card. Show and Tell already keeps enough decks at bay, but TNN keeps most decks that are not tier one from even standing a chance. I just thought I would put this up, so that players can share their opinions of this card and its impact on tournaments and fun. It would probably be beneficial to take polls with situations like this.

Having played enough Legacy to understand that the format was centered around creativity and play skill (up until show and tell and tnn), I can see the impact this card has already made on legacy. It is not as though I cannot tolerate it, but I know a lot of people who are completely ready for it to be gone. Feel free to share your thoughts on its impact, and what you think of the card in general whether it be positive or negative.

Please just post you thoughts, and respect the opinions of others. If possible make this a conversation about card interactions and their pros or cons instead of an argument.

[KobeBryan]

There's already a 100 page thread on this.

[Koby]

Please keep all discussion pertaining to the B&R list in this thread:
All B&R update speculation (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation)

[twndomn]

do you live under a cave? You were out of touch for so long, you even missed the first B/R announcement with TNN in the format, which left it untouched. Here's WotC's stand on TNN: Grow up and Deal with it!

If you have the nerves to be late to the party, please don't start new thread when you could have just post in all the TNN threads.

[Tormod]

Welcome to last year

[JPoJohnson]

There's already a 100 page thread on this.

This.

I'm not sure I understand... why do people keep posting single card discussions on cards that were talked about TO DEATH on the B&R thread?

[jtos84]

I apologize, I am not acquainted with the complaint sections. I thought I would make a thread where people could voice their opinions, so that I do not have to hear complaints every time I play magic.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

do you live under a cave? You were out of touch for so long, you even missed the first B/R announcement with TNN in the format, which left it untouched. Here's WotC's stand on TNN: Grow up and Deal with it!

If you have the nerves to be late to the party, please don't start new thread when you could have just post in all the TNN threads.

Just visiting the forums and not looking at the stickied b/r discussion which, after all, meanders to other topics, I can understand. But this.

This is an amazingly stupid post.

It's always interesting to look at the language advocates of a position take, because it tends to reveal a lot. The don't-ban-anything, the-format-is-healthy crowd, for instance, tend to use the most vacuous and empty language possible. "Bitching" and "whining" as dismissive and marginalizing descriptors for those who find the current metagame abysmal are more common, but "grow up and deal with it" is clearly of the same type.

Grow up, how? This is a collectible card game where we pretend to be wizards, for fuck's sake. Does maturity enter into banned list positions? Is the "adult" thing to do to never criticize a thing? That's a pretty fucking stupid position on its face. It's unclear in what sense, "I like a thing, don't take it away" is any more or less childish than, "I don't like a thing, take it away."

No, like almost all uses of "childishness" versus "maturity" as a descriptor, there's no actual connect between the descriptor and the nominal idea, it's simply an empty phrase designed to say, "I'm not going to listen to you, your face is dumb."

[Barook]

do you live under a cave? You were out of touch for so long, you even missed the first B/R announcement with TNN in the format, which left it untouched. Here's WotC's stand on TNN: Grow up and Deal with it!
Wizards is watching TNN very closely and after the disastrous GP results (whch was after the banned annoucement) where 87,5% of the Top 16 were blue (+1 anti-blue deck), thanks to TNN warping the meta around it, I really don't think TNN gets away unscathed when Mental Misstep was banned for less.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I wouldn't mind a double kill of TNN and Delver.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

chaos;796194']I wouldn't mind a double kill of TNN and Delver.

While precedent would suggest Brainstorm as the most obvious candidate based on numbers, this is what I expect to happen at this point, and they'll use the rationale that blue shouldn't have the best creatures as well as the best spells.

With maybe SnT and/or Griselbrand thrown in for good measure.

[Lord Seth]

chaos;796194']I wouldn't mind a double kill of TNN and Delver.
Delver is fine. You can actually interact with it, and the tempo decks it enables are a whole lot more interesting than anything True-Name Nemesis does.

[DragoFireheart]

While precedent would suggest Brainstorm as the most obvious candidate based on numbers, this is what I expect to happen at this point, and they'll use the rationale that blue shouldn't have the best creatures as well as the best spells.

With maybe SnT and/or Griselbrand thrown in for good measure.

I would expect TNN/Delver/SnT to be banned before Brainstorm since Brainstorm actually fits the theme for blue while TNN should be white, Delver should be red, and SnT should be green.

Grislebrand should be fine with SnT being banned since you need the graveyard at that point to make it worthwhile. And there exist enough anti-yard cards to keep it in check.

[jtos84]

My opinion of the card itself is that it is a little ridiculous. What format was begging for a creature with pro player? My stance is that creatures that could potentially end up in legacy should be carefully thought out, so that they will have a positive impact on the format as well as a good reaction from the players. Spirit of the Laberynth is another creature seems to have been rushed into the format to generate sales or something. If creatures are carefully thought out more people will stay in the game instead of quitting in frustration over ridiculous scenarios like these two cards create. Dealers normally benefit if players quit, so I sometimes question who WOTC is catering too; the players or the dealers?

I think Wizards was doing a very good job until these two cards made their way into the format, but after they make it is up to the DCI to deal with it. If I sat down and thought about possible creatures for legacy, I am confidant that I would be able to come up with more than one that would fill a role in legacy, be fun to play with, and not create so much controversy.

[DragoFireheart]

I thought the consensus among DnT players was that Spirit of the Labyrinth was a niche card and wasn't any better than existing hate bears?

SoL will likely impact Vintage more than Legacy.

[jtos84]

I thought the consensus among DnT players was that Spirit of the Labyrinth was a niche card and wasn't any better than existing hate bears?

SoL will likely impact Vintage more than Legacy.

My rationalization there is that brainstorm is so popular what positive role can this card play? I understand most players do not run four in the main, but I have seen it down quite a bit already.

[DragoFireheart]

My rationalization there is that brainstorm is so popular what positive role can this card play? I understand most players do not run four in the main, but I have seen it down quite a bit already.

Using one card for just brainstorm seems kinda silly for how fragile it is. I suppose it would harass Miracle control decks and maybe Blade decks, but against combo there exist better hate bears.

[twndomn]

I apologize, I am not acquainted with the complaint sections. I thought I would make a thread where people could voice their opinions, so that I do not have to hear complaints every time I play magic.

And you thought wrong. People DID voice their opinions. You're creating a new thread to regurgitate and rehash what people have already written. we Passed that stage already. Just because you missed out your compliant session doesn't mean you should start a new one.


My opinion of the card itself is that it is a little ridiculous. What format was begging for a creature with pro player? My stance is that creatures that could potentially end up in legacy should be carefully thought out, so that they will have a positive impact on the format as well as a good reaction from the players. Spirit of the Laberynth is another creature seems to have been rushed into the format to generate sales or something. If creatures are carefully thought out more people will stay in the game instead of quitting in frustration over ridiculous scenarios like these two cards create. Dealers normally benefit if players quit, so I sometimes question who WOTC is catering too; the players or the dealers?


Thank you mr. obvious. When does WotC intentionally NOT carefully thought out so cards will have a positive impact? Genius idea, why didn't WotC want to have good reaction from the players? Did you just invent the most obvious things to write about? Are you saying that WotC never test their new cards?

If you are considering quitting in frustration because of Spirit of Labyrinth, then you obviously have little understanding of Legacy, best for you not to touch Legacy.

[DragoFireheart]

And you thought wrong. People DID voice their opinions. You're creating a new thread to regurgitate and rehash what people have already written. we Passed that stage already. Just because you missed out your compliant session doesn't mean you should start a new one.

Meh, he's trying to be constructive. I'll give him a pass.

THIS TOPIC IS NOW ABOUT DNT, SOTL, AND IT'S MATCHUP VS TRUE BLADE DECKS

[Dice_Box]

And you thought wrong. People DID voice their opinions. You're creating a new thread to regurgitate and rehash what people have already written. we Passed that stage already. Just because you missed out your compliant session doesn't mean you should start a new one.

Take a breath man.

Yes he is in the wrong, but no reason to lose your cool over it.

[jtos84]

I should have dug deeper before posting the thread. I assumed this would be such a common topic it would be on the first page. I looked at the other thread though, and it seems like it would be difficult to sift through the varying topics.

[Dice_Box]

It's a topic that was argued to death. The reason to that it's not going to be on the front Page is everyone is sick of it. (And the thread was locked if I remember right.) after 100 pages of unmerry go rounds, we all just kind of walked away from the topic and wait in the DCI to make an official statement on the card.

[jtos84]

It's a topic that was argued to death. The reason to that it's not going to be on the front Page is everyone is sick of it. (And the thread was locked if I remember right.) after 100 pages of unmerry go rounds, we all just kind of walked away from the topic and wait in the DCI to make an official statement on the card.

Oh, I'm glad I brought it up. There could be more substantive thoughts on this subject.

One thought that comes to mind is that the card is initially interesting, but I think people are hesitant to complain about it because they are financially and stand to lose money if it is banned. It would be difficult to have an unbiased opinion on this matter. I would like to hear what some judges, or the DCI's opinion on this card is.

[Dice_Box]

Mate I own 4 and I want it gone. All these points where covered. Any point and counter point you can dream of was made in that thread. What your looking for is there. I think most of us are burnt out on the topic though.

Granted I can only talk for myself, but the fact that all talk dropped off the map speaks volumes.

[Grand Superior]

True-Name Nemesis has fundamentally changed the format for the worse IMO. Legacy was absolutely fine, balance wise, before Commander 2013 because nonblue fair decks like Death and Taxes, Jund, and Maverick all had favourable matchups against the fair blue decks. TNN throws that out the window and gives blue decks the advantage against even those decks, totally screwing up format balance and making blue the best at everything. Hell, TNN gives the blue decks such an advantage in fair matchups that they can devote more sideboard space for combo, making TNN indirectly responsible for the reduced viability of combo decks.

On top of that, TNN is just the most boring card ever. Decks like UWR Delver used to be a really interesting and fun to watch but now all it ever is is a race to both resolve TNN and give it a Jitte. I don't know about you, but playing against the card is miserable and playing with the card is just so blah.

I own four True-Name Nemesis and I admittedly play nothing but blue decks in Legacy but I'd give anything to see TNN banned.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Oh, I'm glad I brought it up. There could be more substantive thoughts on this subject.

One thought that comes to mind is that the card is initially interesting, but I think people are hesitant to complain about it because they are financially and stand to lose money if it is banned. It would be difficult to have an unbiased opinion on this matter. I would like to hear what some judges, or the DCI's opinion on this card is.

I'm pretty sure many people have said they wouldn't be furious if the card were to get banned while they have them in their possession, causing them to lose money essentially. TNN is so miserable to play with and against that even many of the people playing the decks he is in think the card is dumb and shouldn't have been printed, or at least shouldn't have been made blue. But I'm not going continue beating a dead horse on a topic that's been discussed ad infinitum. We'll just have to wait for the next B&R announcement. If the card doesn't get banned then I don't see it ever getting banned.

[HugSeal]

Just visiting the forums and not looking at the stickied b/r discussion which, after all, meanders to other topics, I can understand. But this.

This is an amazingly stupid post.

It's always interesting to look at the language advocates of a position take, because it tends to reveal a lot. The don't-ban-anything, the-format-is-healthy crowd, for instance, tend to use the most vacuous and empty language possible. "Bitching" and "whining" as dismissive and marginalizing descriptors for those who find the current metagame abysmal are more common, but "grow up and deal with it" is clearly of the same type.

Grow up, how? This is a collectible card game where we pretend to be wizards, for fuck's sake. Does maturity enter into banned list positions? Is the "adult" thing to do to never criticize a thing? That's a pretty fucking stupid position on its face. It's unclear in what sense, "I like a thing, don't take it away" is any more or less childish than, "I don't like a thing, take it away."

No, like almost all uses of "childishness" versus "maturity" as a descriptor, there's no actual connect between the descriptor and the nominal idea, it's simply an empty phrase designed to say, "I'm not going to listen to you, your face is dumb."

If you feel inclined to discuss the use of words and language from the stance that you are somehow superior(which i would assume is the case with your slandering of words coupled with your use of "fancyword".) you should probably read through the post and try to differentiate between the posters view and the posters opinion of WotC:s view... Otherwise it might seem more than a tad silly and embarassing.

[DragoFireheart]

There's also the fact that main-decking REB/Pyro is viable because of how saturated in blue the format is.

TNN plays a role in this.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you feel inclined to discuss the use of words and language from the stance that you are somehow superior(which i would assume is the case with your slandering of words coupled with your use of "fancyword".) you should probably read through the post and try to differentiate between the posters view and the posters opinion of WotC:s view... Otherwise it might seem more than a tad silly and embarassing.

It is absurdly obvious that twndomn was expressing his own views.

[jtos84]

In my eyes anyone who is tired of the topic, but also urge that the topic be dropped must have a biased opinion. If one is tired of the topic why read it? TNN seems to be more of a financial issue. It is obvious that it is unwanted in legacy, and Magic players are naturally going to have a biased opinion if they own a card under scrutiny. This is a forum, so I would find it strange if a thread is forced to come to a close. Why close a thread when new sets are released, and the format changes further causing room for new analysis? I'm not sure about every moderator on Magic forums, but I know that many of them are heavily committed financially to a lot of cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm pretty sure 90% of Legacy players can be categorized as either wanting TNN banned, or wanting them to have not printed it but coming up with lackluster and half-hearted justifications for not banning it.

[DragoFireheart]

In my eyes anyone who is tired of the topic, but also urge that the topic be dropped must have a biased opinion. If one is tired of the topic why read it?


Trolls and morons tend to lack self-control. They also tend to feel the need to be overly hostile.



TNN seems to more of a financial issue. It is obvious that it is unwanted in legacy, and Magic players are naturally going to have a biased opinion if they own a card under scrutiny. This is a forum, so I would find it strange if a thread is forced to come to a close. Why close a thread when new sets are released, and the format changes further causing room for new analysis? I'm not sure about every moderator on Magic forums, but I know that many of them are heavily committed financially to a lot of cards.

Some people might remember getting burned when Survival of the Fittest got banned. I sure did money wise.

I would image that there exist some people that do not want to see TNN banned because they already dumped $80+ on it already.

[jtos84]

Trolls and morons tend to lack self-control. They also tend to feel the need to be overly hostile.



Some people might remember getting burned when Survival of the Fittest got banned. I sure did money wise.

I would image that there exist some people that do not want to see TNN banned because they already dumped $80+ on it already.

It is understandable to be distraught over losing card value, but it inevitable in magic. Lets imagine that someone owns four TNN's and four volcanic islands. What if a card were printed causing tropical island decks to be way better than volcanic island decks? I have seen cases like this many times. They will lose the same amount. In my opinion it is better to view magic without thinking of card value, but rather on how fun it is to play, otherwise it will just turn into a mess. I agree that the format was balanced before the printing of these two creatures.

[Lord Seth]

I have a serious question.

Does anyone like True-Name Nemesis?

I've seen people who say that, despite not liking it, it shouldn't be banned. But I have yet to see a single person give a positive opinion of the card. And when you look at the other cards that seem to attract criticism--Delver of Secrets, Show and Tell--there are people who like those cards. I haven't seen anyone say they like having True-Name Nemesis in the format... not even in a "this card is so overpowered I have fun playing it" sort of way. Does anyone actually like the card?

I'm not criticizing people who like it. I'm just curious if they actually exist.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not criticizing people who like it. I'm just curious if they actually exist.

I like it for the same reason I like Invisible Stalker: it enables Stoneforge Mystic quite well.

[Grand Superior]

I thought I would like TNN when it first came out because I hoped that it would give my beloved Stoneblade the push it needed to fight back from being absolutely dominated by Shardless BUG for much of 2013. Turns out I was right, but TNN turned out to far more of an oppressive and unfun card than I thought. I went from liking the card to being okay with the card to "playing it because it was good" to "feeling guilty for using it" to my current state where I'm so disgusted by the card that I now play decks that don't use TNN and can fight it effectively.

[DragoFireheart]

I thought I would like TNN when it first came out because I hoped that it would give my beloved Stoneblade the push it needed to fight back from being absolutely dominated by Shardless BUG for much of 2013. Turns out I was right, but TNN turned out to far more of an oppressive and unfun card than I thought. I went from liking the card to being okay with the card to "playing it because it was good" to "feeling guilty for using it" to my current state where I'm so disgusted by the card that I now play decks that don't use TNN and can fight it effectively.

TNN vs SnT: which is worse and why.

[Lord Seth]

TNN vs SnT: which is worse and why.
True-Name Nemesis any day of the week. Except for sometimes Thursday.

Show and Tell might be capable of more powerful things. But Show and Tell is an all-in combo deck. If you can't get the combo together right, you lose. You have to structure your deck completely around getting the combo together and successfully resolving it. In other words: If you stop them from pulling off the combo, you win the game. And there are plenty of ways to do so. Discard to take out their pieces, counterspells to counter the Show and Tell, or hate cards like Oblivion Ring or Karakas. Show and Tell has almost no way to win the game outside of pulling off the combo (unless the game somehow drags on so long they hardcast Emrakul), so if you can keep the combo down, you can beat them quite handily.

That's not true at all for True-Name Nemesis. If you counter or discard or use one of the "really narrow hate that answers it like Golgari Charm" cards... well, they can just win with the cards they were using before they adopted True-Name Nemesis. Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull still wins the game as well as it used to.

Both Show and Tell and True-Name Nemesis share the fact that, other than discard and counterspells, it requires fairly specialized hate cards to beat them. But the big difference between them is that if you have that specialized hate card, you beat the Show and Tell deck; you don't beat the True-Name Nemesis deck just by answering the True-Name Nemesis. One can of course say "but Show and Tell is way more powerful" but I would say that's balanced out by the fact that you need two cards to do it.

[mishima_kazuya]

True-Name Nemesis any day of the week. Except for sometimes Thursday.

Show and Tell might be capable of more powerful things. But Show and Tell is an all-in combo deck. If you can't get the combo together right, you lose. You have to structure your deck completely around getting the combo together and successfully resolving it. In other words: If you stop them from pulling off the combo, you win the game. And there are plenty of ways to do so. Discard to take out their pieces, counterspells to counter the Show and Tell, or hate cards like Oblivion Ring or Karakas. Show and Tell has almost no way to win the game outside of pulling off the combo (unless the game somehow drags on so long they hardcast Emrakul), so if you can keep the combo down, you can beat them quite handily.

That's not true at all for True-Name Nemesis. If you counter or discard or use one of the "really narrow hate that answers it like Golgari Charm" cards... well, they can just win with the cards they were using before they adopted True-Name Nemesis. Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull still wins the game as well as it used to.

Both Show and Tell and True-Name Nemesis share the fact that, other than discard and counterspells, it requires fairly specialized hate cards to beat them. But the big difference between them is that if you have that specialized hate card, you beat the Show and Tell deck; you don't beat the True-Name Nemesis deck just by answering the True-Name Nemesis. One can of course say "but Show and Tell is way more powerful" but I would say that's balanced out by the fact that you need two cards to do it.

Something like this.

Its sort like the fair decks suddenly gained access to a 1 card combo that single handily invalidates a lot of other fair decks. I guess you could say its like letting U/x aggro and midrange decks having access to unrestricted Tinkers, definitely not as powerful, but you get the idea.

[Zombie]

Pretty much the above. It's a card that's answered like a combo deck, except it's one card with no deckbuilding requirements (apart from playing the best color in the format, so sad), no in-play requirements (just jam it, I mean, it's not like it's THAT expensive or forces you to sacrifice board position to even try like NO does for example), and the narrow answers against it just suck against the solid fair deck the broken fish got slotted into. Beat the fish, lose to rest of the deck, beat the rest of the deck, lose to the fish. Or jam Terminus.

[Erdvermampfa]

For what it's worth, I've never seen a ban discussion about a controversial card where the large majority was thinking that the format would be better off without the respective card. Have the self-proclaimed pros and adaptation specialists become more realistic?

[Tormod]

I like truename.
It breaks stalemates and stalled board states.
Its and awesome answer to the field of batterskulls in legacy

I also largely find the complaints are from the vocal minority of forum users. In card board space, I never hear complaints and I see people merrily playing legacy.

I suspect that the loudest complaints are from those that don't play legacy frequently and live in a realm of theory crafting. There's always a "flavour" of the month to hate on, most recently its True-Name Nemesis, before it was deathrite shaman, prior to that was snapcaster and predated by stoneforge/battersku.

[Esper3k]

I like True-Name Nemesis.

Legacy has had a real lack of powerful 3 drop creatures. Vendilion Clique was probably the best one we see play and it's played more for it's anti-combo capabilities than anything else. Others, such as Mirran Crusader and KoTR, while powerful, still just don't cut it against the great 1 & 2 cost creatures & removal of Legacy.

We finally got a 3 drop creature that only attacks or blocks (albeit very well) without being broken in some combo fashion. Yes, I like True-Name Nemesis.

[DragoFireheart]

We finally got a 3 drop creature that only attacks or blocks (albeit very well) without being broken in some combo fashion. Yes, I like True-Name Nemesis.

Yes, but at what cost?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I like True-Name Nemesis.

Legacy has had a real lack of powerful 3 drop creatures. Vendilion Clique was probably the best one we see play and it's played more for it's anti-combo capabilities than anything else. Others, such as Mirran Crusader and KoTR, while powerful, still just don't cut it against the great 1 & 2 cost creatures & removal of Legacy.

We finally got a 3 drop creature that only attacks or blocks (albeit very well) without being broken in some combo fashion. Yes, I like True-Name Nemesis.

It's true that the format was missing a 3cc drop in blue that dominated the fair deck matchups. We also are missing a 1cc equipment that lets you draw infinite cards and a way to replay your entire graveyard for 2B, not to mention lands that don't take up actual land drops.

[Tormod]

It's true that the format was missing a 3cc drop in blue that dominated the fair deck matchups. We also are missing a 1cc equipment that lets you draw infinite cards and a way to replay your entire graveyard for 2B, not to mention lands that don't take up actual land drops.

Its responses like this that killed and degenerated the other thread.

[DragoFireheart]

It's true that the format was missing a 3cc drop in blue that dominated the fair deck matchups. We also are missing a 1cc equipment that lets you draw infinite cards and a way to replay your entire graveyard for 2B, not to mention lands that don't take up actual land drops.

We are missing those things. Lets unban them!


Its responses like this that killed and degenerated the other thread.

Your argument for supporting TNN wasn't much better.

[Tormod]

We are missing those things. Lets unban them!



Your argument for supporting TNN wasn't much better.

Oh look another asshole trying to degerate a thread into a flame war. Very intelligent.

Its like a 5 year old who keeps asking "why?" repeatedly

[DragoFireheart]

Oh look another asshole trying to degerate a thread into a flame war. Very intelligent.


Its responses like this that killed and degenerated the other thread.



I've noticed that idiots are bad at recognizing irony.

I've noticed that idiots are bad at recognizing irony.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The discussion was much more civil when Tormod was merely explaining why those that complain about True-Name Nemesis- i.e., almost everyone- are a vocal minority who never actually play the format.

[Tormod]

You must ask yourself at some point how your life skills are when you still can't past the introduction of a card into a format over half a year ago.

Spend your energies in more productive ways.

[DragoFireheart]

The discussion was much more civil when Tormod was merely explaining why those that complain about True-Name Nemesis- i.e., almost everyone- are a vocal minority who never actually play the format.

Source poster: I don't like TNN because...

Tormod: You're just a local minority NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU ASSHOLE!



You must ask yourself at some point how your life skills are when you still can't past the introduction of a card into a format over half a year ago.

My life skills give me the money and resources to buy whatever cards I like. I would like to think I have enough free time to waste it on pointless yet entertaining discussion. But feel free to coach me on what you think I should be doing with my life.




Spend your energies in more productive ways.



You're in the B&R thread on a forum for a hobby game and you're looking for something productive? It's all pointless and opinion based. I thought the whole point was to be an unproductive, entertaining time sink.

[Tormod]

Source poster: I don't like TNN because...

Tormod: You're just a local minority NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU ASSHOLE!

Got your panties in a bunch?

I recommend proper diet and exercise for stress management.

[DragoFireheart]

Got your panties in a bunch?

I recommend proper diet and exercise for stress management.

Well, I do go to the gym for strength training. What else would you recommend?

EDIT: I've also reduced my gluten intake significantly.

[Tormod]

Well, I do go to the gym for strength training. What else would you recommend?

Some fancy animal print leotards to go with your colourful personality.

[DragoFireheart]

Some fancy animal leotards to go with your colourful personality.

You seem to be knowledgeable about leotards. What kind do you wear?

[Tormod]

You seem to be knowledgeable about leotards. What kind do you wear?

Ones that protect me from target player

[DragoFireheart]

Ones that protect me from target player

I've yet to find clothing that stops steel-toe boots to the nuts.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Let me just say that I absolutely love true-name both on my side and across the table from me. I've been tuning my md's to actively beat tnn mirrors and have been maindecking at least 4 non counter/discard answers in the decks that I've been playing. The beauty is that so many tnn players are just so used to it being invincible game 1 that they overextend like crazy. One sweeper, followed by my own tnn is just so amazingly satisfying. There are games where I don't find the removal spell and die to the bolt/turn, but I've won my fair share with the two card tnn+bskull combo as well. I still find it refreshing that there's a creature that makes md'ing removal other than stp/decay a worthwhile choice.

[Tormod]

I've yet to find clothing that stops steel-toe boots to the nuts.

Seems like a strange hobby. Do you always bring the same person to kick you in the nuts?

[DragoFireheart]

Seems like a strange hobby. Do you always bring the same person to kick you in the nuts?

Whatever it takes to satisfy my masochism.

[Tormod]

Whatever it takes to satisfy my masochism.

Try thinking happy intelligent thoughts, and maybe cut down on a little more gluten.

[DragoFireheart]

Try thinking happy intelligent thoughts, and maybe cut down on a little more gluten.

Happy
Intelligent

Choose one.

[Tormod]

Happy
Intelligent

Choose one.

Hmmm multi-tasking not your thing.

[jtos84]

I would like to say I appreciate the responses of those who really like TNN. However, I do not appreciate the childish arguments from either side. If I was the moderator I would delete those posts, so that intelligent discussion can hold influence in this thread.

I personally am not upset about TNN in the format, but I am worried about its power level; its ability to render past, present, and future cards non competitive, and the lack of creativity that went into such a powerful card. This card is a dominant force in the meta game, and as long as it remains it will be just that, or until something more insanely powerful is printed.

The card is deceptive in that it does not carry any other abilities like flying, or tap to look at opponent's hand. While the card is a 3/1, it would probably not be much better with any more abilities.

Again, I do not want people discouraging others from sharing their opinions. I want this thread to maintain an objective view on this card and situation.

[DragoFireheart]

I personally am not upset about TNN in the format, but I am worried about its power level; its ability to render past, present, and future cards non competitive, and the lack of creativity that went into such a powerful card. This card is a dominant force in the meta game, and as long as it remains it will be just that, or until something more insanely powerful is printed.

Ironically the same thing has been said about Tarmogoyf.

The issue with TNN is that it's green-lighting to WoTC that non-interactive games are ok.

I can interact with Tarmogoyf, Show and Tell, Delver of Secrets, and even Brainstorm. But TNN discourages interaction. Unless I have a handful of narrow cards I lose to it. And even if I do stop it, I still must deal with the rest of the deck.

[jtos84]

Ironically the same thing has been said about Tarmogoyf.

The issue with TNN is that it's green-lighting to WoTC that non-interactive games are ok.

I can interact with Tarmogoyf, Show and Tell, Delver of Secrets, and even Brainstorm. But TNN discourages interaction. Unless I have a handful of narrow cards I lose to it. And even if I do stop it, I still must deal with the rest of the deck.

Isn't that some of the criteria for getting banned? Too me, it seems like someone was upset when they created this. This card pretty much lacks the Magic: The Gathering appeal.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You must ask yourself at some point how your life skills are when you still can't past the introduction of a card into a format over half a year ago.

Spend your energies in more productive ways.

Why does it upset you so much that other people think a card should be banned?

[DragoFireheart]

Too me, it seems like someone was upset when they created this.

Nah. Recent trends show that WotC sometimes forgets that the default card color is blue. Clearly a printing error.

[mishima_kazuya]

Yes, but at what cost?

Midrange G/x decks like Maverick and Jund took a hit that dropped to tier 2 or less status. Goblins also lost even more viability. The small diversity in three drops became even less diverse, (mostly Geist of Saint Traft and Knight of the Reliquary).

Combo decks still have good game 1 match ups since that they can count on their opponent having TNN's in addition to other dead cards like StP. But the post board games suddenly get a lot tougher, since the fair decks can now devote more SB slots for combo match ups, since TNN can take care of the fair decks.



Let me just say that I absolutely love true-name both on my side and across the table from me. I've been tuning my md's to actively beat tnn mirrors and have been maindecking at least 4 non counter/discard answers in the decks that I've been playing. The beauty is that so many tnn players are just so used to it being invincible game 1 that they overextend like crazy. One sweeper, followed by my own tnn is just so amazingly satisfying. There are games where I don't find the removal spell and die to the bolt/turn, but I've won my fair share with the two card tnn+bskull combo as well. I still find it refreshing that there's a creature that makes md'ing removal other than stp/decay a worthwhile choice.

I can only think of Liliana of the Veil and Diabolic Edict as a reasonable maindeck cards against TNN. The global shrink effects (Marsh Casualties, Zealous Persecution, and Golgari Charm) are too narrow to be maindeckable for the most part. Besides playing an assload of sweepers(Miracles), it does not actually look like you can maindeck a lot of reasonable removal spells for TNN.

[Megadeus]

Toxic Deluce is still criminally underplayed

[DragoFireheart]

Midrange G/x decks like Maverick and Jund took a hit that dropped to tier 2 or less status. Goblins also lost even more viability. The small diversity in three drops became even less diverse, (mostly Geist of Saint Traft and Knight of the Reliquary).

Combo decks still have good game 1 match ups since that they can count on their opponent having TNN's in addition to other dead cards like StP. But the post board games suddenly get a lot tougher, since the fair decks can now devote more SB slots for combo match ups, since TNN can take care of the fair decks.


Goblins is dead as far as I know. Does anyone still play it?

I think TNN would be less of an issue if it wasn't blue.




Toxic Deluce is still criminally underplayed

Yeah I dunno why this isn't played more.

[Grand Superior]

TNN vs SnT: which is worse and why.

Lord Seth said it best so I'll just defer to what he said. I agree with everything he posted.

TNN's noninteractivity is also a huge factor in why I think the card is stupid. It's one thing for it to be an insane trump in fair matchups, but it's another thing altogether for it to also require your opponent to have a narrow subset of answers or just straight up lose to it. Stoneforge Mystic is a great card in aggro/midrange matchups but your opponent can interact with it in a number of maindeckable ways. True-Name Nemesis is similarly great in those matchups but unlike SFM, is completely noninteractive. Your opponent is limited to two options: race it (unlikely if TNN is paired with Jitte), or somehow find one of those narrow answers.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Goblins is dead as far as I know. Does anyone still play it?

I think TNN would be less of an issue if it wasn't blue.





Yeah I dunno why this isn't played more.

Because it kills your own TNNs. And UW has better sweepers.

[jtos84]

Goblins is dead as far as I know. Does anyone still play it?

I think TNN would be less of an issue if it wasn't blue.





Yeah I dunno why this isn't played more.

I sat next to a player in St. Louis who got 12th place or so with Goblins. It had four Thalias and four Cabal Therapies main deck. I was very impressed with this deck. The player was facing down Show and Tell with Grislebrand in play, and still won. I would think some cards could be printed for goblins to make it more than competitive. Goblins always falls off the map, but it always comes back.

If toxic deluge was played in the main deck in many archetypes burn would be unbelievably good.

[Wilkin]

Toxic Deluce is still criminally underplayed

I agree. I guess the life loss thing kind of scares people off.

Had one in my sideboard for a while and never drew it until this week. OMG, it's insane. Board state was me with Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull with Germ vs. 2 Faerie tokens, a Delver and a True Name Nemesis. Deluge for one......and GG. A Plague Wind for 3 mana and 1 life seems good.

I don't know if you can ban TNN but it is rather annoying when trying to build a fair deck, because it hampers certain strategies and you need an answer for it.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think WotC is going to ban it.

They had their chance in February. In the Top 8 of a recent GP, there was only 1 deck using TNN. In the 8-16, there was another deck using TNN. That to me doesn't say "format warping lets ban it" when the supposed bad card is seen in only 2 decks in the top 16 of a 1500+ person event. I think TNN is here to stay.


Because it kills your own TNNs. And UW has better sweepers.

I just died a little bit on the inside after reading this.

[Lord Seth]

The issue with TNN is that it's green-lighting to WoTC that non-interactive games are ok.
For whatever it's worth, Wizards of the Coast does seem to have gotten the message (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/72119362945/hi-mark-i-know-the-hype-has-died-down-a-bit-but-i-just) that people don't like it.

[jtos84]

I don't think WotC is going to ban it.

They had their chance in February. In the Top 8 of a recent GP, there was only 1 deck using TNN. In the 8-16, there was another deck using TNN. That to me doesn't say "format warping lets ban it" when the supposed bad card is seen in only 2 decks in the top 16 of a 1500+ person event. I think TNN is here to stay.

The players who made the top 8 in Paris have probably been playing Legacy a certain way, with certain cards for a very long time. I wonder how many copies of it were in the top 200. That would be a much more important number.

[Tormod]

Why does it upset you so much that other people think a card should be banned?

It doesn't, but clearly it bothers you.

You're so silly with your use of language and leaps of logic

[DragoFireheart]

The players who made the top 8 in Paris have probably been playing Legacy a certain way, with certain cards for a very long time. I wonder how many copies of it were in the top 200. That would be a much more important number.

That data should be around somewhere. BRB

EDIT:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppar14/day2#4


Here's what the field on the second day of Grand Prix Paris 2014 looked like. Below you will find listed the decks of 180 players, six others chose to run rogue builds of which only a single copy made the cut.
Deck: Number:
BUG Delver 25
Miracles 15
Storm 13
Elves 12
Sneak & Show 12
WUBG Deathblade 12
UWR Stoneblade/Delver 10
Merfolk 10
Death and Taxes 9
Jund 8
Stoneblade 8
Omni-Tell 7
Shardless BUG 5
RUG Delver 5
Dredge 4
Imperial Painter 4
Junk 3
Reanimator 3
Belcher 3
"Farmville" 2
BUG Control 2
Lands 2
Maverick 2
Nic Fit 2
UR Delver 2

BUG Delver leads the way, and that's not the only Delver deck out there. Including the Blue-White-Red Stoneblade/Delver hybrid as well as RUG Delver and Blue-Red Delver, they account for almost a quarter of the field. Similarly, the various versions of Stoneblade make up more than 16% of the metagame. Miracles, though in second place in the above table, can claim only half of that.

Out of the group of 180 day 2, only 30 or so decks played TNN on a glance (I know some BUG Delver decks used TNN as well). So, roughly 17% of the meta is using TNN.

No where even close to ban worthy. Compare this with Brainstorm usage: 12 of the Top 16 used it...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It doesn't, but clearly it bothers you.

You're so silly with your use of language and leaps of logic

That's a pretty strange follow up sentence after accusing me of being upset with people who want TNN banned.

[Tormod]

The players who made the top 8 in Paris have probably been playing Legacy a certain way, with certain cards for a very long time. I wonder how many copies of it were in the top 200. That would be a much more important number.

How about taking the statistical data for ALL the cards played in the top 200.
I guarantee you will find more delvers and stoneforge than true-names.

Using frequency of play as a metric for banning a card is grasping at straws to push an agenda. Meaning you perceive there is a problem but have no facts or evidence to support it, so now you're looking at other variables to "come up" with a problem.

[Tormod]

That's a pretty strange follow up sentence after accusing me of being upset with people who want TNN banned.

Since the last 12 dozen pages of posts from you are about TNN, yeah clearly you're bothered.

[jtos84]

How about taking the statistical data for ALL the cards played in the top 200.
I guarantee you will find more delvers and stoneforge than true-names.

Using frequency of play as a metric for banning a card is grasping at straws to push an agenda

The other cards like delver and sfm do not hold the power to warp the meta game.

[DragoFireheart]

The other cards like delver and sfm do not hold the power to warp the meta game.

I'd argue that TNN hasn't warped the meta. The meta has simply adjusted to it.

TNN lacks the presence to be ban worthy.

[Tormod]

The other cards like delver and sfm do not hold the power to warp the meta game.


Delver and SFM don't "warp" the meta game? Wow, you must be playing a different Legacy than me.

Let be honest, for a card to be playable in Legacy, it has to have some bustedness to it.

[jtos84]

Its hard using Magic terms like warp and tempo correctly. I'll use every day terms. TNN is not your average magic card with the typical abilities.

[Zilla]

There's already a thread for this. Feel free to use it.