Lands > Will prices ever stabilize?

[slave]

Hi peeps,

So lets just exclude the real deal Duals from this, cos we all know they're extremely unlikely to get reprinted or come down in price.
But what about fetches and shocks?

Prices of Fetches especially has been going up to high altitudes for a while now. Scalding Tarn, Verdant Catacombs etc. are now quite expensive!!
I remember when the last time they were printed in Zendikar you could snap up a playset of most fetches for between 8-15 a piece.
But is a fetch really worth $80+ ? :eyebrow:

[IL_casual]

Scalding tarns/mistys are already priced at 99.99 in SCG! Price manipulation ? Or are we really that desperate for a playset of fetches?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[Dice_Box]

Yes, as they will be reprinted. The price will rise until the announcement of the reprint, drop, then rise again. Rinse and repeat until either the cards in question become outdated by later more powerful cards (unlikely) or that one of the formats crashes and floods the market of the other with the cards in question.

Also I think Shocks will rise in price in accordance with the rise in price of the Duals. There is going to come a point where people will just be running shocks in Legacy decks and going to big events with them. Why? Price will just hit that point and then your either waiting on a market crash, or making do with the options you have available for the price you can afford.

Also, we are not going to see a reprint of any of these cards again until the Holo stamp is in action. Its also unlikely to see Fetches printed while Shocks are in Standard.

[from Cairo]

I remember when the last time they were printed in Zendikar you could snap up a playset of most fetches for between 8-15 a piece.

And anyone playing realized (should have realized) that fetchlands are ridiculously high power level and snapped up at least 20 for their play experience if not additionals to reap the gross profit that is currently available to them. I feel bad for newcomers into Legacy because the cost of entry is quite high, but with each new set release there are opportunities to assess cards' power levels and buy into in-print cards that will end up as great value buys in a year or two's time. See Liliana of the Veil that was available in Standard for as low as $15, and now SCG has her at $80. Currently one could note the RTR Block shock lands, when these aren't being ripped from packs on the regular they will bounce back to at least twice what they are at today.

[Grand Superior]

Fetchlands will be reprinted eventually, but I don't 100% see them being reprinted in M15 or in "Huey," which will cause prices to skyrocket. I never thought I'd see Misty Rainforest and Tropical Island be comparable, price wise, but it's likely to happen.

When they inevitably get reprinted with the Onslaught fetches (Wizard's new policy is to print the full 10 lands), I don't see them going below $30 long term. The Onslaught ones would be even more expensive because people would now need them for Modern.

Shocklands have never been cheaper and I would get them now (or by rotation) if you want to play Modern at all. They're only going to be more expensive a few months after they rotate.

[Quasim0ff]

No, lands will always be incredible expensive. Yes they will drop, depending on how soon a reprint will happen.

[(nameless one)]

Things that you learn in Magic: Never trade lands for jewelry.

[civet five]

Things that you learn in Magic: Never trade lands for jewelry.

I did that:(

[lordofthepit]

Things that you learn in Magic: Never trade lands for jewelry.

What if I want to get Power 9 some day? :cry:

[Azdraël]

Get a job. How can even students afford playing Magic now?! :really:

[DragoFireheart]

Get a job. How can even students afford playing Magic now?! :really:

Ask Obama for a Magic: The Gathering subsidy while being dressed in pajamas.

[Dice_Box]

Ask Obama for a Magic: The Gathering subsidy while being dressed in pajamas.

I don't get it, also how does that help me in Australia?

[Lord Seth]

Sadly, a fetchland reprint would result in the dual lands becoming even more expensive.

[Barook]

Realistically, Wizards could easily print strictly better duals without actually screwing the format over:


Neo Taiga
Land - Mountain Forest
When Neo Taiga enters the battlefield, you may look at the top card of your library.

Put one pair of each (e.g. Neo Tundra and Neo Savannah for Bant) into each Commander set (so they aren't Modern-legal) and print the everliving shit out of it. Who says that you can't make money of Legacy players?

[John Cox]

Realistically, Wizards could easily print strictly better duals without actually screwing the format over:



Put one pair of each (e.g. Neo Tundra and Neo Savannah for Bant) into each Commander set (so they aren't Modern-legal) and print the everliving shit out of it. Who says that you can't make money of Legacy players?

They could just finish the murmuring bosk cycle too.

[Lord Seth]

Realistically, Wizards could easily print strictly better duals without actually screwing the format over:



Put one pair of each (e.g. Neo Tundra and Neo Savannah for Bant) into each Commander set (so they aren't Modern-legal) and print the everliving shit out of it. Who says that you can't make money of Legacy players?
Nope! That would violate the spirit of the Reserved List.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't get it, also how does that help me in Australia?

The U.S annex's you and then you get the subsidy!

[civet five]

They could just finish the murmuring bosk cycle too.

I would like to see this, though the caveat of tribal is a bit silly IMO.

I think I threw this out there once before, but I think Standard post-shocklands would benefit from the Mirage-block fetches. R&D has stated that its hard to print good Lands because the mechanics are constrained, and as a result they really need to stretch them out, alternate good with bad, and rely on reprints.

Taking the perspective of Legacy into account, I realistically am not sure that Legacy manabases need more duals, but rather something different (trilands?) How many decks really need that 5th or 6th in-color dual? Do any? I think some interesting food for thought is:
1) How bad can a land that has 2+ basic land types be and still be playable? Example - Nieuw USea: Swamp Island. When {} becomes tapped, it deals 2 damage to you. Playable?
2) How good can a land that has no basic types be and still be playable? So far, only a handful of decks like Tezzerator and Miracles bother with a token Scars land or 2. Grove of the Burnwillows is the only other one that comes to mind, and that's because its an engine.
3) How far can you push dual/shockland mechanics? Can you make Shard trilands without completely breaking the game?
4) Is Dryad Arbor something that should be printed against the full color pie? I think it would be cool, and fringe playable, but shouldn't take the main tribe. Elemental Island, Viashino Mountain, Cat Plain, Uncle Istvan Swamp. something like that

[Barook]

3) How far can you push dual/shockland mechanics? Can you make Shard trilands without completely breaking the game?
4) Is Dryad Arbor something that should be printed against the full color pie? I think it would be cool, and fringe playable, but shouldn't take the main tribe. Elemental Island, Viashino Mountain, Cat Plain, Uncle Istvan Swamp. something like that
3) Trilands would be quite strong, but the manabases in Legacy are already ridiculous with fetches + duals.
4) They aren't going to make another Dryad Arbor due to the rules confusion it caused.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They could just finish the murmuring bosk cycle too.

Exactly what I thought about. I just can't decide what would be the Canadian Land. Efreet Garden? Djinn Lamp Factory?

[Phelix]

just make America socialist - duals for everyone!

[jtos84]

I don't see why fetch lands would be reprinted, but like other players have said, they will only become more expensive. I remember buying a polluted delta for 10 bucks at the mall a long time ago (I don't expect to see a repeat of that). I think the biggest barrier to entry is going to be for those who already play, but end of selling their cards. When they want back in every card will be at least two time more expensive. Legacy opens keep growing in size, so I would expect to finally see a noticeable squeeze on dual land availability. I do not think it will ever be overly difficult to acquire duals because magic players sell their collections all the time, and get back in later. Fow is probably the most popular and important card in legacy, and it is probably one of the most readily available and affordable cards still. Even if someone want to quit Magic, I would not recommend selling the cards.

[lyracian]

I don't see why fetch lands would be reprinted, but like other players have said, they will only become more expensive.
I don't see why they would not reprint fetches (Zendikar at least). Wizards are trying to support Modern, even if they are not very good at doing so, so at some point Misty and friends will come back to play and they may bring old friends back with them.

[Barook]

When they reprint fetches, they're going to do the whole batch, probably distributed over several consecutive sets.

It just doesn't make sense that Modern wouldn't get the allied fetches.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't see why fetch lands would be reprinted, but like other players have said, they will only become more expensive. I remember buying a polluted delta for 10 bucks at the mall a long time ago (I don't expect to see a repeat of that).
If Wizards are serious about their support of Modern, they simply must reprint the ZEN fetches. If they don't do that, Modern will follow in the wake of Eternal, as there will be highly sought cards that are necessary to play the best decks, yet those are unaffordable/too expensive for many players.
Of course, there are budget decks in Modern/Eternal and there are decks that don't play fetches/duals in both (or all three) formats, but this is not an argument. First: there's a difference between a deliberate choice of non-fetches_and_duals deck (Affinity, Goblins, Eightpost) and the inability to afford them. Second:playing suboptimal decks is not a recipe for win, so using the Doomsday simile, players with a little bit worse decks/cards will be in a position of a blck player starting with a one knight less - yes, he may win, but he's at serious disadvantage.
I'd be interested if WotC finally realize how useless (outside of Limited) are some 75 % of their cardboard and how even the good cards become killed by rotation. There's really no need for another and another and another set of crappy be-the-same cards that just increase the pool and strip your everyday's Type II guy of money. I like the new cards, it's fine to have budget/EDH fodder and possibilities, lots of (even crappy and/or otherwise uninteresting) cards make the game interesting and serve a niche roles, but seriously, this shouldn't be overdone. It's fine that there are many dual-color lands to choose from, but when we're speaking about non-EDH, non-casual setting, there are only few choices to decide from.
What I find extremely anoying is what happened to the core sets. Instead of being full reprint, they bring new stuff (moreover stupid one). I don't know why they don't use the old model. Also, I was really pleased when the core sets got the black borders, but now I see at as a mistake, because Wizards lost the chance to reprint the old stuff with white borders. This means there are less chances how to bring the chase rares for a bit more reasonable price. If, instead of annoying us with Omniscience, WotC should have the core sets kept stable and designed them as a place where they may (under some circumstances) reprint necessary stuff.

And another thing I'm not really understanding is why there are far less Chronicles/Anthologies/MMA/w-e reprint sets. Ok, RL aside, but still, WotC are missing easy money from the reprints of staples like FoW, Waste, etc. Of course that they cannot bring us fetch after fetch in core set after core set, but a (tiny/small) reprint every few years won't hurt anyone.
"But the collectors, think about the collectors!" Roflmao, collectors are not hurt by reprints of tournament staples, those hurt are called speculators/hoarders. Collectors are not interested in Revised duals, players need them. That's why there's so big difference in prices of Badlands and Deathlace.

Without trying to be clever, and not understanding anything about business model, I think that a workable solution is something like this:

A Usual Magic Card :w::u::b::r::g:
Tribal Plainswalker - Pony Advisor

+1: ~ is printed in original expansion
+2: ~ is printed in core set. Use this ability only if ~ isn't broken.
+3: ~ gets Chronicles. (It is printed in non-Standard-legal reprint set.)
+4: If ~ is staple, then ~ is reprinted in a last set of some next block.
+5: Print ~ as Judge/Players Rewards.
+6: Still expensive? Return to some previous step.



I think the biggest barrier to entry is going to be for those who already play, but end of selling their cards. When they want back in every card will be at least two time more expensive.
Why? They're in the same situation as those who never had cards, except that they have money (and knowledge how to use them on MKM and such).



Legacy opens keep growing in size, so I would expect to finally see a noticeable squeeze on dual land availability. I do not think it will ever be overly difficult to acquire duals because magic players sell their collections all the time, and get back in later.
But this deosn't make them cheaper. They just circulate, it's not like a new ones show up.



Fow is probably the most popular and important card in legacy, and it is probably one of the most readily available and affordable cards still. Even if someone want to quit Magic, I would not recommend selling the cards.
So you recommend to keep them ad vitam aeternam?

[Barook]

@Bed Decks Palyer: Wizards made core sets black-bordered because the vast majority of players hated the white border. And they put in new stuff into core sets to boost sales.

We get so much filler now because Wizards focuses hardcore on the Limited crowd. What's also the reason why every Standard-legal set after RtR sucked ass because they think sets are going to sell based on 1-2 chase rares alone while the rest is Limited junk.

[YamiJoey]

They could just finish the murmuring bosk cycle too.

This cycle is either 5 cards that limits it to 3-colour Tribal, and therefore would probably only see play in Modern as a 1-of for decks like Junk outside of the actual Tribal decks, or it would be 30 cards large, each basic type getting each of its possible 2-colour supports.

Land - Island
T: Add G

Would be fine enough for most things, and I'm not sure how broken it'd be for Modern. RUG Delver would be able to play a budget list, as they play no non-Islands, and BUG Delver plays 2 Bayou and 4 Island x cards, so your fetches would be 4 Delta, 4 Misty, 1 fetch that can't find Bayou or something, and this would be similar for most decks out there.

The problem then becomes how you go about getting these into print. You'd probably have to do a full cycle of 4 per land type, making the Lands 20 strong instead of the usual 10. Which is lame.

[DarkJester]

This cycle is either 5 cards that limits it to 3-colour Tribal, and therefore would probably only see play in Modern as a 1-of for decks like Junk outside of the actual Tribal decks, or it would be 30 cards large, each basic type getting each of its possible 2-colour supports.



Why? It could be easy a 10-Land-Cycle, like the Alara-Shards and Enemy-Shards (Ana, Dega and so on... Bosk would be Necra in this case. Black as Basic and the two enemy.colours)

[TsumiBand]

Nu-Bosk cycle wouldn't necessarily have to have the same tribal drawback - it could be a re-moded version of shocklands.

Tsumi's Bosk

Land - Forest

(T: Add :g: to your mana pool.)

As -this- enters the battlefield, you may pay 1 life. If you don't, -this- enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever -this- is tapped for mana, it produces colorless mana unless you pay 1 life.

T: Add :b: or :w: to your mana pool.

You wouldn't want a battlefield full of these guys, but then again we're talking about fetchable tri-lands here. Really at that point I think there is a reasonable expectation for a steep price to pay.

[Megadeus]

Duals being expensive doesnt really bother me. Im fine with it. There's always shock lands if you are desperate. And if you get creative you can build a budgeted mana base pretty nicely. I think the old tainted lands are actually pretty solid. My issue is more with the expensive spells like Force, Goyf, or other unique lands like Wasteland, Karakas, Tabernacle, that don't actually have any budget options (Ghost Quarter and Tec Edge aren't realistic in legacy comparison to Waste). Especially considering that most of the really expensive spells/unique lands aren't RL cards that COULD be reprinted.

[TsumiBand]

Duals being expensive doesnt really bother me. Im fine with it. There's always shock lands if you are desperate. And if you get creative you can build a budgeted mana base pretty nicely. I think the old tainted lands are actually pretty solid. My issue is more with the expensive spells like Force, Goyf, or other unique lands like Wasteland, Karakas, Tabernacle, that don't actually have any budget options (Ghost Quarter and Tec Edge aren't realistic in legacy comparison to Waste). Especially considering that most of the really expensive spells/unique lands aren't RL cards that COULD be reprinted.

I think the problem though is that playing a deck without Force of Will is a lot easier than playing a deck without fetchlands and duals. We can't all play D&T -- and even that deck has/can have several of the cards you named.

[Piceli89]

Duals being expensive doesnt really bother me. Im fine with it. There's always shock lands if you are desperate. And if you get creative you can build a budgeted mana base pretty nicely. I think the old tainted lands are actually pretty solid. My issue is more with the expensive spells like Force, Goyf, or other unique lands like Wasteland, Karakas, Tabernacle, that don't actually have any budget options (Ghost Quarter and Tec Edge aren't realistic in legacy comparison to Waste). Especially considering that most of the really expensive spells/unique lands aren't RL cards that COULD be reprinted.

Let's be completely realistic and not to pretend what is not true: Legacy doesn't give any space for suboptimality, because it's so extremely tight that even a singleton Shockland instead of a regular dual land can decree loss given its frantic timings and absurd power-level. Perhaps in Modern it is more easy for you to get away with a well-balanced combination of fast lands, basics and shocklands even without bleeding to shell out for the fetches, as long as if it's a two-color deck (three in my opinion makes fetches mandatory); that just doesn't work in Legacy, as original dual lands are objectively the best cycle of lands to pick in any case.

Just to provide fancy yet effective examples, starting from 18 and 20 can make your opponent need one last Tendrils of Agony copy, one less attack by True-Name Nemesis, and so on (I hope you get the concept).
Just as much as creating a budgeted manabase, although more possible as long as fetchlands are optimally distributed in it, will from time to time cause you to not being able to fetch for a dual-source of color at the time needed, and so on.
If you're playing in a (very) local scene of at an FNM this can be accepted, but surely not if your aim is to attend a Grand Prix.
The comparison doesn't stand just as much the one between Wasteland and TecEdge that you mentioned doesn't.

Legacy is sinking into a hole where its price is driving away that part of the actual playerbase not willing to update/change their decks to follow the metagame trend, and it is practically impossible to get into. Modern as of now is better under almost all aspects: openness, price tag, support.
And this is a tough statement for me to speak.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah, shocklands in Legacy can be sincerely crippling if they are the primary mana fixers in your list. You'll cut your starting life total nearly in half if you try to fetch untapped shocks every turn by turn 3. Compare to a true dual mana base which happily goes to 17 in the same amount of time.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[prateta]

Legacy is sinking into a hole where its price is driving away that part of the actual playerbase not willing to update/change their decks to follow the metagame trend, and it is practically impossible to get into. Modern as of now is better under almost all aspects: openness, price tag, support.
And this is a tough statement for me to speak.

It's tough but I have to agree. Legacy is unplayable if you can't be satisfied with only one deck or if you are not a millionaire. If you are new to the game, the price tag is even higher, which is obvious. That's why you see old(-ish) people at legacy tournaments, mostly. At least in my area. Students can't afford this format.

Modern is a bit less expensive, although the latest development in ZEN fetches prices is slowly moving its price tag closer and closer to legacy. Therefore, as much as I hate Modern (no old cards, not enough powerfull cards, stupid banlist), I have to admit it is better format than Legacy right now - price tag, support. And it seems like most people realise it. GP Richmond over 4k attendance? Why are there no legacy GPs over 4k? The price. It's really this simple. Legacy is great, so might be playing poker with the world's best players. But try to pay that buy-in.

[TsumiBand]

At least they have allowed themselves to do Modern-only reprint sets and have shown willingness to print $100+ cards. Dat mana though.

I do not agree with WotC's assertion that Beta duals are 100% of the time strictly better than basics; or at least, I do not believe it to be a situation that could not be handled with some clever printings. However, that claim seems to be applied less to the strict nature of the RP and more to what they consider to be 'bad for the game'. If you track which things people like Tabak / MaRo say about what can be printed and why, I feel it becomes clear that there is a bias towards using the 'spirit' of the RP in conjunction with their current design philosophies to remove any concept of capacity to affect change. "Ah we can't print Snow Duals because mumble mumble." "Reverberate is bad because something Fork something heart of the cards." "We can't print within 50 ft of (mechanic) even if we wanted to." And so on.

Modern is their 'fixed' Legacy, that's all there is to it. And they swallowed the key to the exit in policies and formalities. I hate to sound like 'that guy' but really if you put specific aspects of their decisions under a microscope it just boils down to capricious judgment calls with vague references to guidelines that conflict and are unevenly applied.

Fuck lands btw. Fuck money. Fuck lands, money, and Saturday mornings without espresso. I sound my barbaric yawn, at something something zzzzz.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Lord Seth]

What I find extremely anoying is what happened to the core sets. Instead of being full reprint, they bring new stuff (moreover stupid one). I don't know why they don't use the old model.
Because the old model wasn't popular. People (1) are rarely interested in white borders, and (2) aren't interested in an all-reprint set. Now I know someone might appeal to Modern Masters being popular, but the big reason Modern Masters was so popular was because it had so many cards they couldn't put into a core set either because of power (all core sets cards enter Standard!) or complexity (e.g. all of the keyworded cards).

The change in core sets gave people a reason to care about them other than just knowing what cards are Standard legal again.

[TsumiBand]

Because the old model wasn't popular. People (1) are rarely interested in white borders, and (2) aren't interested in an all-reprint set. Now I know someone might appeal to Modern Masters being popular, but the big reason Modern Masters was so popular was because it had so many cards they couldn't put into a core set either because of power (all core sets cards enter Standard!) or complexity (e.g. all of the keyworded cards).

The change in core sets gave people a reason to care about them other than just knowing what cards are Standard legal again.

See, I prefer the old model to the new one, if only because it does precisely allow for staples to subsist throughout Standard seasons. As long as we're having this discussion about entry barriers and players having trouble breaking in -- what about the players that play two years of Standard, drop out and then return again in like six months/a year/whatever? At least when the Core Sets had golden oldies like painlands and Birds of Paradise and Counterspell and whatever-else, people could return knowing that they at least had a framework for the new Standard season, and then maybe just draft and trade until you have what you want to work with. It doesn't work like that now; those players may not be able to use their old cards moving forward unless they want to get into Eternal formats which all have their high-dollar chase cards. I guess they could sell all their old shit in favor of new shit, but that can represent a loss of either money or product that can be immensely difficult to recoup.

Also I think Core Sets with 50% reprints / 50% new stuff doesn't make sense to call a 'Core Set'. It isn't a "Core" Set if it is so different from those even in recent years that it doesn't establish that 'core' functionality. Just putting extra reminder text on cards so that noobs can learn the difference between first strike and haste doesn't mean that it's fulfilling that duty. I get that it's been remoded, I just disagree with the approach.

Also I feel like putting all that 'creativity' into the 'Core Set' is a wasted effort. Let the Core Set just establish the 'good-enough' stuff; there's no need to do a ton of innovating there. Maybe replace last year's Vizzerdrix with something slightly less shitty; but it should be a "you must be this high to ride" sort of thing that the Core Set promotes, not a "hey let's make new Slivers because reasons" set. That's like saying "This year's Chess board is bring printed on hexagonal tiles" to me.

Also? JavaScript is stupid because this !== this and I just want it to work like 'self' does in Python. I know there's jQuery and $(this) but don't get me started. oh wait I got me started. eeeffff

[Megadeus]

Let's be completely realistic and not to pretend what is not true: Legacy doesn't give any space for suboptimality, because it's so extremely tight that even a singleton Shockland instead of a regular dual land can decree loss given its frantic timings and absurd power-level. Perhaps in Modern it is more easy for you to get away with a well-balanced combination of fast lands, basics and shocklands even without bleeding to shell out for the fetches, as long as if it's a two-color deck (three in my opinion makes fetches mandatory); that just doesn't work in Legacy, as original dual lands are objectively the best cycle of lands to pick in any case.

Just to provide fancy yet effective examples, starting from 18 and 20 can make your opponent need one last Tendrils of Agony copy, one less attack by True-Name Nemesis, and so on (I hope you get the concept).
Just as much as creating a budgeted manabase, although more possible as long as fetchlands are optimally distributed in it, will from time to time cause you to not being able to fetch for a dual-source of color at the time needed, and so on.
If you're playing in a (very) local scene of at an FNM this can be accepted, but surely not if your aim is to attend a Grand Prix.
The comparison doesn't stand just as much the one between Wasteland and TecEdge that you mentioned doesn't.

Legacy is sinking into a hole where its price is driving away that part of the actual playerbase not willing to update/change their decks to follow the metagame trend, and it is practically impossible to get into. Modern as of now is better under almost all aspects: openness, price tag, support.
And this is a tough statement for me to speak.

I understand the concept of starting at a lower life total being a bad thing. I'm not an idiot. I am simply saying that there are suboptimal (yet playable) types of dual lands out there that can help to offset the expenses of a deck. Sure a 3 color deck is going to be highly expensive because the mana base is almost necessary for the deck to even operate, but if you are on a budget and thinking about building BUG Delver (8 Blue fetches, 4 USeas, Bayous, Forces, Goyfs, etc...) then you are simply being unrealistic. Legacy is an over time investment. Not many people are just dropping 2k+ to simply buy a whole deck. And if someone is unwilling to play the format because they can't simply go out and buy a whole deck, then they probably aren't someone that is truly committed to playing the format anyway. I traded out of Standard, played Nic Fit (with a dual and shocks) then traded/bought cards for Tezzeret STax, then did the same for "budget" stoneblade with 2 blue duals, and so on and so forth. Each time slowly increasing the value of my deck. It is an investment over time. if nothing else, you could find friends and borrow at least a few of the cards for your deck.

[trollking21]

I understand the concept of starting at a lower life total being a bad thing. I'm not an idiot. I am simply saying that there are suboptimal (yet playable) types of dual lands out there that can help to offset the expenses of a deck. Sure a 3 color deck is going to be highly expensive because the mana base is almost necessary for the deck to even operate, but if you are on a budget and thinking about building BUG Delver (8 Blue fetches, 4 USeas, Bayous, Forces, Goyfs, etc...) then you are simply being unrealistic. Legacy is an over time investment. Not many people are just dropping 2k+ to simply buy a whole deck. And if someone is unwilling to play the format because they can't simply go out and buy a whole deck, then they probably aren't someone that is truly committed to playing the format anyway. I traded out of Standard, played Nic Fit (with a dual and shocks) then traded/bought cards for Tezzeret STax, then did the same for "budget" stoneblade with 2 blue duals, and so on and so forth. Each time slowly increasing the value of my deck. It is an investment over time. if nothing else, you could find friends and borrow at least a few of the cards for your deck.

Ya but I've traded towards RUG delver for a year now (and spent around 200) the total price of he deck has went up 1 grand. Despite all I've put in I'm at 1 Goyf 2 force 3 duals 1 fetch 2 waste and all the below 10 dollar cards. At this rate I won't be able to finish my deck for another year.

And there is no real budget replacement for goyf force waste or the fetches in RUG so for people like me it is a serious barrier to ejtry

[Lord Seth]

Ya but I've traded towards RUG delver for a year now (and spent around 200) the total price of he deck has went up 1 grand. Despite all I've put in I'm at 1 Goyf 2 force 3 duals 1 fetch 2 waste and all the below 10 dollar cards. At this rate I won't be able to finish my deck for another year.

And there is no real budget replacement for goyf force waste or the fetches in RUG so for people like me it is a serious barrier to ejtry
No budget replacement? What about Scavenging Ooze or Werebear? Heck, Werebear was Tarmogoyf before Tarmogoyf existed.

Obviously they're weaker, but a budget replacement tends to be... that's why it's budget.

[Zupponn]

I think that many players find legacy to be scary rather than just expensive. Many of them are willing to drop some good money on standard stuff to compete against the three top decks at the time, but feel intimidated when looking at the 8 Tier 1 and 30+ Tier 2 legacy decks they have to know about. I'm just not sure how many people are willing to put the effort forth to learn the format.

[civet five]

No budget replacement? What about Scavenging Ooze or Werebear? Heck, Werebear was Tarmogoyf before Tarmogoyf existed.

Obviously they're weaker, but a budget replacement tends to be... that's why it's budget.

You mean Quirion Dryad:)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@Bed Decks Palyer: Wizards made core sets black-bordered because the vast majority of players hated the white border. And they put in new stuff into core sets to boost sales.

We get so much filler now because Wizards focuses hardcore on the Limited crowd. What's also the reason why every Standard-legal set after RtR sucked ass because they think sets are going to sell based on 1-2 chase rares alone while the rest is Limited junk.

Because the old model wasn't popular. People (1) are rarely interested in white borders, and (2) aren't interested in an all-reprint set.

The change in core sets gave people a reason to care about them other than just knowing what cards are Standard legal again.
Yes. Guys, you're right, and I even wrote that I liked it... until reently.
WotC lost (or thrown away) the possibility how to reprint the necessary stuff, they turned core set into kind of a fourth-per-year expansion and this is what bothers me. Ok, lets set aside the white borders, nobody likes them (although... see below), but why they simply couldn't keep the core sets stable and reprints-only?
Lets say that the reason why people don't buy packs is not because there are zero/few new cards in them, but becasue they contain zero/few good cards. (Set aside all other factors like tournament support or w-e else.) Saying that core sets with only the reprints would be unpopular is silly, it depends on the kind of reprints. Ok, RL kicks in, and it's sad, but there are hundreds of possible choices to select from.
Also, I simply don't get one thing. With three sets annualy, and a plethora of secondary products per year (be it Commander or whatever), are the MtG players so insatiable? There are what, thousandd new cards per each twleve mnths, so would the all-reprint set be so bad? i know, I know, the sales. But again, it's about power level and attraction of those reprints. I can see myself drafting (ok, rather sealed deck, but nvm) Magic 2015 if it would include cards like:

mythic rare: fetchlands, Wasteland, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Horizon Canopy
rare: Mystic Gate, City of Brass, Cabal Coffers, Mossfire Valley, Underground River
uncommon: Shadowblood Ridge, Treetop Vilage, Tainted Peak, Shivan Oasis
common: Mountain Valley, Rakdos Carnarium (not that those matter).

Ok, there's a trouble with Standard legal Maze and Canopy (and others), so maybe this needs some tinkering, but honestly, painlands were reprinted year after year and I see no trouble with it. Add Sunpetal Grove and alikes, and this might be a base for the rare-lands of core set for a decades onwards, with a mythic rare slot ocuppied by w-e is the flavour of the season.
They brought th new mythic rare slot, so why not use it on necessary stuff?

Also, if this is far too dangerous/stupid becasue of Standard, there's always the Eternal Masters solution which they should have brought years and years ago. Core set could be still kept all-reprints (full of reasonable and well balanced cards; after all, it's meant for the starters...) with a quite "low" power level, and there can be (once in two or three years) a non-Standard-legal Chronicles print (with a more powerful stuff) to keep the prices of at least some cards reasonable. That's where you place your mythic fetchlands, mythic counterspells, mythic Werebears, mythic Strip Mines, etc.

Basically this is all about WHAT they want their product to be. Is it collectable? Or game? If collectable aspect is more important, then fine, don't reprint. If they emphasize the gaming aspect, then give the players the pieces they need, unless there's some need to keep the new players of Eternal, as many elitists and overall jerks argue even on this very site.

I hope this rant won't turn the thread into the "Bitching about... 2.0", but some things should be said.

[Lord Seth]

Well, see, there's a big issue with your argument. Namely, the assumption that the new cards mean Wizards of the Coast are not reprinting valuable cards they would if core sets were still all reprints.

If Wizards of the Coast wanted to reprint some big money card, they would. There's still plenty of reprints in the core sets, and for that matter expansions. The fact there are a lot more reprints in core sets doesn't somehow mean they couldn't.

Now you might say "but there's less room for it, because there's fewer reprint cards!" Er... how? Do you think they actually thought something like "well, we want to put Tarmogoyf in this set, but we just don't have enough room for reprints. Sorry Tarmogoyf, it's Kalonian Tusker that makes the cut"? The reprint cards that are being cut for new ones are cards people didn't care about to begin with. More likely, the card that missed the cut thanks to Kalonian Tusker was something like Flinthoof Boar. Making Magic 2014 an all-reprint set wouldn't suddenly make them throw in something like Tarmogoyf. If they wanted to put that in a core set, they would put it in a core set. The fact there are new cards in a core set doesn't stop them from doing it.

The weirdest thing is that Magic 2014 actually had two fairly notable reprints in the form of Mutavault and Scavenging Ooze. I feel my points would still be just as valid if we were having this conversation after Magic 2013, but the most recent core set reprinted two reasonably notable eternal cards.

I just really don't get this mania that core sets must be reprints. Why? The best explanation I've seen is this vague claim that it's somehow preventing them from reprinting cards players want reprinted, which for the reasons I've given, I feel is a poor argument. It all feels like some kind of "they changed it! That makes it bad!" without any real reason as to why it makes it bad other than the fact that it's different.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, see, there's a big issue with your argument. Namely, the assumption that the new cards mean Wizards of the Coast are not reprinting valuable cards they would if core sets were still all reprints.

If Wizards of the Coast wanted to reprint some big money card, they would. There's still plenty of reprints in the core sets, and for that matter expansions. The fact there are a lot more reprints in core sets doesn't somehow mean they couldn't.



Strawman's dead, long live the strawman.

I'm not saying that there's not enough place for the reprints due to slots being occupied by the new cards. I'm saying that instead of making shitty cards/sets, they could have kept the core set stable, all-reprints, and use them to bring necessary cards- Like they did with... hey, with Mutavault or Ooze.
The fact that there's plenty of reprints in core set doesn't mean that it can't be all-reprint, and it also deosn't mean that there's some need for new cards in them.
They print three expansions per year and crapload of Commander decks. Seriously, there are enough new cards, unless someone is greedy. Why on earth the core sets can't bring the old balanced useful stuff and keep the prices of staples a bit lower is beyond my understanding.
Also, next time you'll bring Goyf, google the word "balanced", please.

I just really don't get this mania that core sets must be with new prints. Why? The best explanation I've seen is this vague claim that it's somehow good to print new cards, which for the reasons I've given, I feel is a poor argument. It all feels like some kind of "they changed it! That makes it good!" without any real reason as to why it makes it good other than the fact that it's different.

[lyracian]

I just really don't get this mania that core sets must be with new prints. Why? The best explanation I've seen is this vague claim that it's somehow good to print new cards, which for the reasons I've given, I feel is a poor argument. It all feels like some kind of "they changed it! That makes it good!" without any real reason as to why it makes it good other than the fact that it's different.
If Wizards wanted to support Eternal formats they could do things such as print one Wasteland in every EDH deck; that would get the cards out there while not 'ruining' there precious standard and making one deck worth twice the others (Like Mind Seize). Unfortunately they do not care about Eternal formats; they are only just changing policies to get Modern cards into circulation. Eventually this might be good as there is a large crossover between Legacy and Modern we will have to see if Conspiracy gives us any useful cards. (either reprints or new cards)

[Barook]

If Wizards wanted to support Eternal formats they could do things such as print one Wasteland in every EDH deck; that would get the cards out there while not 'ruining' there precious standard and making one deck worth twice the others (Like Mind Seize). Unfortunately they do not care about Eternal formats; they are only just changing policies to get Modern cards into circulation. Eventually this might be good as there is a large crossover between Legacy and Modern we will have to see if Conspiracy gives us any useful cards. (either reprints or new cards)
They don't want Eternal formats to succeed because they can't milk it like Modern. Although their current pace shows that Wizards clearly can't keep up with the explosion of the Modern format, hence rising the prices of staples to ridiculous highs.

They make alot of questionable decisions, but get away with it because a) Richard Garfield laid foundation to an amazing game and b) they're lucky. Otherwise, shit like MTGO wouldn't fly. Sure, they're doing something right, considering the massive growth of Magic in the past few years, but who says they couldn't do even better if they didn't constantly fuck up somewhere?

"Protecting the collectors" clashes directly with "wanting to play the fucking game". How limited does the next reprint run of Tarmogoyf have to be to not piss of collectors? But what's the point of reprints if it can't (and shouldn't) drive down the price while making print numbers of the product so limited that can't cash in properly?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Exactly. Exactly...

That's why I'm annoyed with the new policy of core sets. They bring new and new cards, moreover most of them are junk, while there are not enough older cards. Yes, their price is high due to popularity of game, and even if they print gorillion Wastelands, they sill don't need to drop in price, as demand might rise due to increased popularity. Still, WotC got a perfect tool how to decrease the prices of staples and get some cash out of Eternal, yet they are completely ignorant. The only reasonable consideration is that they don't want Eternal to grow, because it will bring even more troubles with RL, P9, duals, staples, etc.

But as the tim psses, they may completely lose any chance to do something about the reprints.

Specifically on lands:
They may easily reprint them in either core set (the Canopy cycle) or in some special Chronicles-like set (fetches and Legends/Dark stuff) or Commander products (Wasteland at least). Speaking of core sets, there are four rarities and there's no reason to bring new stuff in core sets, when there are lots of powerful and popular cards that could be brought back via the core sets. If they don't want them Standard legal, ok, fine, but what's the trouble with Chronicles/Anthologies/Beatbox reprints? The "collectors" tergiversation is plain silly, unless WotC wants hundreds of satisfied collectors (read: speculators/hoarders/elitists) instead of what? thousands, tens of thousands satisfied players?

I can't get the whole idea of old cards being somehow special and not desering reprint or w-e. Yes, some of them are overpowered/stupid, and there's RL that makes it even more complicated, but still, what's the trouble? And this is not only about the lands, but also (screw the RL) things like Sylvan Library, Mox Diamond, Volrath's Stronghold, Force of Will, whatever. Wouldn't it be better than usual crap in core set?

/derailing to "Bitching..." thread

[lyracian]

They make alot of questionable decisions, but get away with it because

"Protecting the collectors" clashes directly with "wanting to play the fucking game". How limited does the next reprint run of Tarmogoyf
It surprises me how few banned cards we have in Legacy and that the whole game has not imploded into just two or three playable decks.
As for Tarmogoyf who would have expected a card to go up in value because it got a reprint? It just goes to show that there short hall production run was nowhere near enough. At least MODO has special drafts for old sets so you still have a chance at getting cards.

[Lord Seth]

Strawman's dead, long live the strawman.

I'm not saying that there's not enough place for the reprints due to slots being occupied by the new cards. I'm saying that instead of making shitty cards/sets, they could have kept the core set stable, all-reprints, and use them to bring necessary cards- Like they did with... hey, with Mutavault or Ooze.
The fact that there's plenty of reprints in core set doesn't mean that it can't be all-reprint, and it also deosn't mean that there's some need for new cards in them.
But why should it be all reprint? That's what you keep insisting, yet you have yet to make a single valid argument as to why. You keep claiming "they can use them to bring necessary cards." Okay... so how do they need to be all-reprint to do that? The only argument you've made does not actually relate to the conclusion you've brought forward. Whether or not there are new cards in core sets is unrelated to whether or not they use core sets to reprint valuable cards.


I just really don't get this mania that core sets must be with new prints. Why? The best explanation I've seen is this vague claim that it's somehow good to print new cards, which for the reasons I've given, I feel is a poor argument. It all feels like some kind of "they changed it! That makes it good!" without any real reason as to why it makes it good other than the fact that it's different.
I have given reasons as to why they add new cards to core sets; it increases sales of core sets, increases interest in them, and stops them from really just being a list of cards that are legal in Standard. From everything I can tell, people actually care about core sets a lot more now than when they were just a bunch of reprints. So far, all you've done is bring up irrelevant issues.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

But why should not it be all reprint? That's what you keep insisting, yet you have yet to make a single valid argument as to why. You keep claiming "they can use them to bring new cards." Okay... but why they need to be all-new?

I have given reasons as to why they should keep old cards to core sets; it may increase sales of core sets, increase interest in them, and stop them from really just being a list of cards that are legal in Standard. From everything I can tell, people may actually care about core sets a lot more if they were just a bunch of reasonable reprints like Sylvan Library or Force of Will. So far, all you've done is bring up irrelevant issues.

[jtos84]

I think Legacy is going to continue to grow every year. I also think modern is going to grow as long as the DCI doesn't ban something like pod. I do not play modern, so I have no opinion there. I was looking at a collectibles price guide in a book store the other day, and its valuation of Underground sea was 100 bucks for a revised edition one. I cannot remember what the fetches were, but they were correspondingly cheaper. It is hard to understand this price guides valuation. It must not take tournament magic, and the market into consideration. It is strange how these formats can be so expensive, yet become increasingly more popular. The fetches are probably no longer capable of exponential price increases, so it is hard to tell where they will end up in price. It is also difficult to understand how these prices are where they are in terms of economic principles. I know in trading relative values are a good rule to use when making trades, but as far as actual dollar value it becomes much more complicated.

[Lord Seth]

Pretty sure I'm just being trolled here (especially due to the rather silly "mimicking"), but I'll play along for a little longer, if only to show how stupendously bad your arguments are. Should you return to that silly mimicking after this post, that would just prove to everyone that you have no actual point to make.


But why should not it be all reprint? That's what you keep insisting, yet you have yet to make a single valid argument as to why.Uh, except for the ones I gave in the post you quoted? The arguments you have yet to actually address? I'll tell you them again: The core sets previously were not particularly interesting. They mostly just mattered in "hey, this card is Standard legal." That's not something that gets someone excited about the set or gets them to buy them. It might get them excited about that specific card being Standard-legal again if it's been out of Standard for a while, but that's not any incentive to actually care about the sets themselves.

Indeed, this was cited as part of the reason they changed it. To quote Aaron Forsythe:
"Too often in the past, the core set has been completely marginalized by the enfranchised player base. It has been perceived as merely a list of cards legal in Standard and little more, and under those circumstances it tends to drift off shelves and out of the public consciousness, making it harder for new players to find the proper entry point."

Now, the argument you have made is about how they can use the core sets to reprint cards you want reprinted. But this is completely incidental to the question of whether the core sets should be entirely reprint. Let's take one you listed: Wasteland. If they wanted to reprint Wasteland in a core set, they are perfectly capable of doing so whether the core set is all reprint or just partially reprint.

Now, of course, they won't put Wasteland in a core set. Why not? Because they don't want that card in Standard because it's so powerful. I mean, if Encroaching Wastes, Ghost Quarter, and Tectonic Edge are their ideas of a fair land that can engage in land destruction, they're sure as heck not going to put Wasteland in Standard. I know some people disagree with the rather hard line they've taken against land destruction, but that's a completely separate issue. The point is this: Whether the core sets were all-reprint or (as they are now) partially reprint, Wasteland wouldn't be in them. Wasteland isn't getting reprinted in a core set because they don't want to reprint it in a core set--or any Standard set--period. Making the core set all reprint would do absolutely nothing to change that. It would still be seen as too strong.

And, indeed, let's take the argument that Wasteland would not be too powerful for Standard, or at least that dealing with it for a year in Standard would be worth the reprint. Let's suppose Wizards of the Coast accepted that. That means that... wait for it... they could put it in Magic 2015. A set that will be partially reprinted cards. If they decided they wanted Wasteland in a core set, they'd put it in, whether it was all reprints or partially reprints.

Heck, if they wanted to reprint Wasteland without putting it into Standard, they have plenty of options; From The Vaults, commander decks, judge promos, etc. But they haven't, because they obviously don't want to, or they don't want to enough that they haven't done anything more with it than thrown it into an "eventual judge promo" list. Would it be nice if they would bother to reprint Wasteland, at least a little? Of course. But it's incidental to the issue of core sets including new cards.

Wasteland is, of course, just one example. There are other cards that, for various reasons, they would be uninterested in putting in a core set. For example, the painlands hardly seem overpowered for Standard; I'd argue that the shocklands are actually more powerful in Standard than the painlands are. However, from my understanding the painlands were excised because new players didn't like having to pay life to get mana, making them a poor choice for core set dual lands (hence their replacement with the non-damaging check lands). To repeat myself yet again: Whether the core sets included new cards or not has nothing to do with whether or not they would put something like the painlands in the core sets. They are equally capable of doing so in either variety of core set.

This is the point I am making. Your argument that they should use the core sets to reprint in-demand expensive cards is unrelated to them including new cards. They are equally capable of reprinting those cards in an all-reprint set versus a partial-reprint set. Your argument is irrelevant to the question.

Of course, you have yet to actually answer that point. Instead, you seem to be trying to reword my posts in some poor attempt at mimicry--which is especially amusing because the points I have made against you do not apply to the points I have made. All it does is make you look foolish.


You keep claiming "they can use them to bring new cards."
Uh, I never argued that. What I pointed out was that putting in new cards in core sets is a good decision from a business perspective for the reasons I have given.

See, this is why your arguments are failing hilariously. You're not actually making arguments; you're just taking what I say and trying to turn it around on me. But because the arguments I'm presenting don't work against me, you just make yourself look really stupid by doing so.


Okay... but why they need to be all-new?
Core sets are not all new. Oh, look, yet another case where your attempt at mimicry backfired upon you, how quaint. Try making actual arguments next time.


I have given reasons as to why they should keep old cards to core sets;
No, you haven't. You've just tried to argue they should be reprinting older cards. That's it. And while the idea of reprinting those older cards is something I agree with, that's irrelevant to the actual issue of whether there should be new cards in core sets because, for the reasons I have given, deciding to revert the core sets to being only reprints would do nothing to make them decide to suddenly put stuff like Wasteland or Horizon Canopy or whatever else in them. These issues are unrelated.


it may increase sales of core sets, increase interest in them, and stop them from really just being a list of cards that are legal in Standard.
And that is completely unrelated to what you're arguing!

The argument you are making, of course, is that if they were to put all those big-money cards in a core set, it would make that core set sell better. That's true; one can be reasonably certain that the shocklands being in Return to Ravnica was part of why that set was such a huge success. And I'm sure the presence of Thoughtseize in Theros got some people to get packs of it they normally would have been uninterested in. However, as I have pointed out repeatedly and will do so yet again to try to make sure you finally manage to grasp my argument, that is irrelevant to the issue of the core sets having new cards. If they wanted to reprint those big-money cards in a core set, they can do it in one that is all reprint; they can also do it in one that is only partially reprints. If Wizards of the Coast wanted to put those cards in core sets, whether or not the core sets are completely reprints or only partially reprints is superfluous; they can do it either way. Theros had far fewer reprinted cards than a core set, and it included Thoughtseize, as I noted.


From everything I can tell, people may actually care about core sets a lot more if they were just a bunch of reasonable reprints like Sylvan Library or Force of Will.
Good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I read this, or I might have done a spit take. Do you think Sylvan Library or Force of Will are in any way close to reasonable reprints? Do you think Wizards of the Coast would actually put those back in Standard again?

Now, I'm sure someone might argue that they are, in fact, of reasonable power level for Standard. And maybe that's true; after all, Force of Will is much less impressive in an environment that does not have combo. But Wizards of the Coast does not consider them to be of the kind of power level they want in Standard. If the core sets were all reprints again, Force of Will and Sylvan Library would not return to them because they don't want them in Standard (and for that matter, they're also rather confusing cards from a rules standpoint, making them even less of a good choice for a core set). I know I'm repeating myself, and I know I'm repeating myself in mentioning I know I'm repeating myself, but to repeat myself yet again, I feel I have to because you seem unable to grasp this concept even though I have stated it multiple times.

Note that it wasn't until Magic 2010 that they started putting new cards into Standard. In all of those previous editions, Force of Will was never once put into a core set. Sylvan Library did make it into fourth and fifth edition (of course, Necropotence got into fifth edition, so this is hardly a ringing endorsement of the card being fair), but they dropped it afterwards and it was not in any of the later editions. Outside of being extremely powerful, it's also considered out-of-color for Green, so they're definitely not putting it back in Standard. Again: Going back to making the core sets just a bunch of reprints would not result in these cards being put into Standard. Also, again: If Wizards of the Coast changed their mind on those cards, and thought "hey, maybe Standard would be shaken up a bit if we added Force of Will," they can do that just as easily in the current model of core set as the previous model.


So far, all you've done is bring up irrelevant issues.Nope, I've brought up actual arguments, whereas, again, all you have done is made an irrelevant argument about how they can use them to reprint valuable cards (and I have explained why in this post why it is irrelevant) and done this poor attempt at mimicry.

Look: If you want Legacy staples reprinted, that's fine. I'd like to see them myself. But because core sets and expansions go through Standard, that immediately disqualifies most Legacy staples as being reprinted in them, because they don't want those cards in Standard. Some cards might be things they'd be willing to put into Standard--indeed, some, such as Scavenging Ooze, Mutavault, and Thoughtseize, have been--but the presence of new cards in their respective sets was not an apparent barrier to them returning.

Personally, I don't really care that much whether the core sets are just reprints or include new cards. But I can see some decent reasons as to why Wizards of the Coast made the change--and no real reasons as to why they shouldn't have.

[YamiJoey]

Free Counterspells are broken combo or not. Make cheap threat. Removal already costs more than it. Hold up mana to counter everything. When you finally get to turn 4/5 and are able to play 2 removal Spells and I'm low on mana I counter one and then Force the next and now you're dead. Tempo is one of the most unfair decks we have in modern Magic. You simply don't get to play whilst I site here cracking you. Force is good in that deck. INCREDIBLY good. What are you going to do? Play it in control? No thanks!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

blah blah

Well, you do realize that the title of this thread says something about "lands" and "prices" and "stabilize", don't you?
So I brought a hypothetical solution (all-reprints core set that may include some expensive lands - and maybe even spells) instead of crap.set they're now. There are enough new editions annualy (exactly three per year), where the WotC may place their new cards (and simultaneously make them more than a "that set with Thoughtseize"), while they may keep the core sets only reprints and give some necessary stuff in them. Like, you know, fetchlands for that Modem Fromát that people are so crazy about.

I think that a set full of powerful reprints might be interesting and popular, but alas, there's nothing to support my idea, as sadly there's no such an interesting and popular set full of powerful reprints. (http://redcastlegames.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/modern-masters-header-400.jpg)

Also, I don't get why your opinion that Core sets should bring new cards is more legitimate than my opinion that they could remain all-reprints and bring necessary old cards. Fortunately, I can give no fuck about you and your opinion.

[Lord Seth]

And what do you know, as expected, after I spent all that time explaining and defending my points, Bed Decks Palyer manages to ignore all of them! Either he's not reading my messages, he's reading but not comprehending them, or he's just trolling. Either way, there's no purpose in spending more time arguing with someone who refuses to engage your points.

[Zupponn]

To be fair, I'm not reading either of your posts. Too much tldr.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

And what do you know, as expected, after I spent all that time explaining and defending my points, Bed Decks Palyer manages to ignore all of them! Either he's not reading my messages, he's reading but not comprehending them, or he's just trolling. Either way, there's no purpose in spending more time arguing with someone who refuses to engage your points.

You're the one who's trolling here.
I wrote that I'd love if core sets looked differently and you completely delegitimized my idea/wish, every my explanation and defense you simply ignored, etc. Sry, dude, there's nothing to discuss, esp. considering the topic is a heavily beaten horse long dead.
If you want, I'll pretend you won this argument. Then tomorrow you can tell me you changed your mind.